WEBVTT - Protecting Abortion Providers from Terrorism 0:00:05.320 --> 0:00:10.039 Oh, it could happen here and earlier this week, not 0:00:10.240 --> 0:00:12.720 the week you're hearing this, but the Weekly recorded it. 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:15.960 It did it being the end of Roe v. Wade 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:19.840 via Supreme Court fiat, and also the coming end of 0:00:19.880 --> 0:00:23.119 a hundred years of social progress unless people get real 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:27.520 organized and aggressive, real fucking quick. I'm Robert Evans. Who else? 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:29.479 Who else? Do I got on with me? Today? Is 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:31.560 there a Is there a? Is there a Christopher Wong 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.360 on the line? Yes, there there is one. There are 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:38.280 many others, but but I am me, yeah, the others 0:00:38.280 --> 0:00:40.839 do not count. Um? Is there a Garrison Davis on 0:00:40.880 --> 0:00:43.479 the line? The only one that I know of? That's right, 0:00:43.600 --> 0:00:46.080 that's right. We exterminated the others in a in a 0:00:46.120 --> 0:00:50.040 brutal set of purges. Alla stalin um. And then of 0:00:50.040 --> 0:00:54.160 course Sharene Lonnie and a shrine. I'm here too. Would 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:56.960 you like to introduce Sophie and of I mean the 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:01.040 one and only Sophie. Okay, well that's us. Well, and 0:01:01.200 --> 0:01:06.240 now today I am intensely excited to introduce our guest, um, 0:01:06.319 --> 0:01:10.199 who is a cool person doing cool stuff to steal 0:01:10.400 --> 0:01:14.200 another one of our podcasters, Cat Green of the Abortion 0:01:14.319 --> 0:01:18.160 Access Front, Cat Welcome to the show. Thank you for 0:01:18.240 --> 0:01:20.240 coming on. I know this has been a hell week 0:01:20.319 --> 0:01:22.640 for you. Oh yeah, thanks for having me on. I 0:01:22.680 --> 0:01:25.640 really appreciate it. Now, Um, you and I have a 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:28.560 friend in common, and you guys were actually at a 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:34.280 national conference for abortion access when the news dropped a 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:35.720 little early. Do you want to talk to us a 0:01:35.760 --> 0:01:38.759 little bit about what happened there? Yeah? I mean, now 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:40.720 that the conference is over, I can say that we 0:01:40.800 --> 0:01:43.319 are in one of the worst cities in the world 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:47.000 to be in when all of this happened, Orlando, Florida, 0:01:48.680 --> 0:01:55.800 which is basically made of paper sets right. Honestly, you 0:01:55.800 --> 0:01:57.760 could have stopped that sentence at one of the worst 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:02.320 cities to be in. Yeah, we had actually been out 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:06.800 to dinner at the oldest restaurant in Florida earlier that night, 0:02:06.880 --> 0:02:10.480 and it was a lovely evening. Um, even though like 0:02:10.639 --> 0:02:14.639 some angry driver tried to kill our mutual friend over 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:21.320 parking space Florida over that part, you know, I mean 0:02:21.639 --> 0:02:25.400 in Florida. Yeah, you know. Also, the day had started 0:02:25.480 --> 0:02:28.640 with their already being a bomb threat at a clinic 0:02:28.680 --> 0:02:32.320 in Knoxville, so I was trying to help people find 0:02:32.320 --> 0:02:35.800 information about that. Earlier in the day and then um, 0:02:35.880 --> 0:02:38.799 we went out to dinner thinking that we got to relax, 0:02:39.000 --> 0:02:41.600 and then came back to the news as it was 0:02:41.639 --> 0:02:45.000 breaking and into the lobby of our hotel, where um, 0:02:45.040 --> 0:02:50.120 the remaining providers and advocates that were there were, um, 0:02:50.160 --> 0:02:55.760 just trying to make do. Yeah. So Cat, I, first 0:02:55.800 --> 0:02:57.880 of all, I guess we should talk about what the 0:02:57.919 --> 0:03:00.760 Abortion Access Front does and you were job there because 0:03:00.760 --> 0:03:02.440 this is something I don't think a lot of people 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:05.160 think about it. One of the things that's become clear 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:07.520 to me from some of the reaction of some folks 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:09.600 this week on the more liberal side of things is 0:03:09.639 --> 0:03:12.880 there is a general unawareness of how violent and intense 0:03:12.919 --> 0:03:16.679 the threats against abortion access providers have been for like 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:23.040 forty years. Yeah. Well, so, Abortion Access Front was founded 0:03:23.040 --> 0:03:26.000 by Liz Winstead, my partner who was the co creator 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:30.680 of The Daily Show, and started as a progressive advocacy 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.320 and messaging hub. And so we were making funny videos 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:39.000 about abortion and then Trump got elected. We're like, oh wow, 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:41.640 our job's got way more serious all of a sudden, 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:47.000 And so we had like volunteers in the week after election, 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:53.800 and so we started becoming matchmakers for volunteers to UM 0:03:54.040 --> 0:03:56.840 different clinics around the country, and we were doing comedy 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.840 tours where we were trying to build community around the 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:02.800 n x UM in different states, and so we would 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.520 do a comedy show, have a have a provider on 0:04:05.680 --> 0:04:07.720 at the end to talk about what was at stake locally, 0:04:07.800 --> 0:04:09.720 and then get people to sign up to help because 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.880 people didn't have access to contractors in many of the 0:04:13.880 --> 0:04:15.680 places we were going, you know, like we would go 0:04:15.720 --> 0:04:17.839 out and do landscaping work when we were on tour 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:20.040 because we were just trying to help out wherever we could. 0:04:20.760 --> 0:04:24.560 And in the course of that, the nice folks at 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:27.039 the National Abortion Federation reached out to us and we're like, 0:04:27.080 --> 0:04:30.120 we're a little concerned about you putting providers on stage, 0:04:30.800 --> 0:04:33.320 maybe we should talk about your security plans. So they 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:37.760 they were out with us the first two years and 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:41.400 UM then we're giving me information about people we needed 0:04:41.440 --> 0:04:43.720 to watch out for. So I got way more involved 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:47.839 in creating these security plans around our shows and our tours, 0:04:48.000 --> 0:04:50.560 and UM started doing a lot of my own research 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.919 on anti abortion extremists because as we started talking to 0:04:53.960 --> 0:04:57.320 more people the clinic escorts in front of the clinics, 0:04:58.200 --> 0:05:01.400 we were getting information about not just leadership with the 0:05:01.400 --> 0:05:03.280 people on the ground where they were the most afraid of. 0:05:03.480 --> 0:05:05.880 So then I was like, I wish I could just 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.839 put all this into something where I could look something 0:05:08.920 --> 0:05:12.400 up by a ZIP code and be able to tell 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:14.920 who I need to watch out for in a particular area. 0:05:15.360 --> 0:05:19.080 And that didn't really exist. So, um, there was just 0:05:19.160 --> 0:05:23.360 a whisper network of escorts and then the leadership research 0:05:23.440 --> 0:05:26.240 that NAP was doing. And so I started consoliding all 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:29.279 my research into a database for all of us to 0:05:29.320 --> 0:05:34.760 be able to use and track incidents and organizations and 0:05:36.040 --> 0:05:38.960 bad actors all over the country. I mean, that's that's 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:44.000 extremely important, but also extremely cool. Um, it is that 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:47.000 you brought up right at the start of your what 0:05:47.040 --> 0:05:49.800 you were saying that there was a shooting at the 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.839 Knoxville Clinic. Oh, not a shooting, There was a bomb 0:05:53.880 --> 0:05:58.360 scare at the at the Knoxville Clinic UM on Monday, 0:05:58.520 --> 0:06:01.360 and there was there was an person and the Plan 0:06:01.480 --> 0:06:06.039 Parenthood in Knoxville this past New Year's Eve. UM, and 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.359 that same clinic, that same Plan Parenthood that was burned 0:06:08.360 --> 0:06:11.000 down on New Year's Eve actually had its front door 0:06:11.080 --> 0:06:15.800 shot out about a year earlier. And uh, because this 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:17.839 this is one of the more frustrating cases. If you 0:06:17.839 --> 0:06:20.480 look this up, you can see that like the fire 0:06:20.520 --> 0:06:23.839 department has said it was an arson, UM, the a 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.240 t F is investigating, the FBI is investigating. They've both 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:31.200 get given the kind of boilerplate statements they've given those instances. 0:06:31.640 --> 0:06:34.200 You don't see a lot from the local police. I'm 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:36.680 curious if you have anything to say about like the 0:06:36.720 --> 0:06:38.960 degree to which the local police have been useful in 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.240 responding to this. Well, I don't work with the local 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:46.480 police at all. Um. I you know, I'm a TV 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:51.600 person that got into uh doing extremist research. I'm an 0:06:51.720 --> 0:06:55.120 editor and that I sort information, right, So like that 0:06:55.200 --> 0:06:58.880 made sense to me, But law enforcement doesn't really take 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:03.920 me too seriously. Um. But the people on the ground 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:06.159 have a lot of thoughts about who it could be. Right, 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.280 there are known people in the Knoxville area who have 0:07:11.080 --> 0:07:13.240 caused all sorts of problems. There was another arson at 0:07:13.280 --> 0:07:18.160 a different community center there too, um, and several white 0:07:18.200 --> 0:07:23.440 supremacists were arrested after protesting a black Lives Matter UH 0:07:23.680 --> 0:07:28.960 event maybe two years ago. And so there's here's the thing. 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:34.000 There's information about the Knoxville fire that went out on 0:07:34.120 --> 0:07:39.280 telegram with an order of nine angles, Nazi claiming credit 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:42.960 for it. And how hard can it be to find 0:07:42.960 --> 0:07:49.640 a pagan Naxi in Knoxville? You go to a golf 0:07:49.720 --> 0:07:52.120 club and be like, who's hit you in the face here? 0:07:52.320 --> 0:07:57.480 You know? So, Yeah, I feel like there are hindrances 0:07:57.520 --> 0:08:02.040 to the investigation. Um, and a lot of the a 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.400 lot of the activists on the ground have good leads 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.720 that are not being followed. Yeah, I guess that's probably 0:08:08.760 --> 0:08:11.760 the most direct thing that can be said about it. 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:17.680 What so to the extent that like, there's seemingly not 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:19.960 a lot in a lot of these states that is 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:24.320 going to be done preemptively by law enforcement. Um. When 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:28.600 it comes to like actually tracing out the threats, Uh, 0:08:28.680 --> 0:08:31.680 how much do you feel like you have a chance 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.360 to actually stop them from carrying out an action? And 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:35.959 how much of it do you feel is just like 0:08:36.440 --> 0:08:39.400 we need to be documenting this for for when it happens. 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.520 You know, we're already getting early warning about events. We're 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:46.440 already because we tracked the people who There are a 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:50.719 number of groups that create the same kind of actions 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:54.280 that are either invasions or blockades at various clinics and 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:57.480 people who have been organizing around this for decades, right, 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:00.800 so in tracking them and starting to put the pieces together, 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.440 we're already getting early warning about where they're headed, about 0:09:04.600 --> 0:09:08.040 who needs to be alerted. You know, there have been 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:11.600 at this point three incidents. Just like I'm working with 0:09:11.640 --> 0:09:15.200 a group of volunteers. These are all people who either 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.439 escort at clinics or part of a part of advocacy 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.080 orgs that you know, are not getting paid to do intel, 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:26.200 but they they're invested in the cause, and so they 0:09:26.320 --> 0:09:28.679 just follow this stuff on the regular and we're all 0:09:28.720 --> 0:09:30.600 in touch with each other, and all of a sudden, 0:09:30.640 --> 0:09:33.240 it's like, oh, you know, this person who's been a 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:36.640 part of twelve other blockades in the last three years 0:09:36.720 --> 0:09:39.840 has been seen going on a tour and said, the 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:42.280 next three stops, he's going to, let's tell all the 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:44.520 clinics in the neighborhood what's happening and they can be 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:48.160 a little bit better prepared. And that's you know, I mean, honestly, 0:09:48.360 --> 0:09:53.960 because the abortion movement is not super supported by law 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.840 enforcement largely, um, it seemed like a necessary thing for 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.040 everybody to start keeping their own records for their own safety. 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:04.880 And that's really how all this came together. Now, it's 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:06.839 interesting to me that you you brought up one of 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:09.600 kind of the leads suspects. I guess you might say 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.800 for the attack on the Knoxville clinic was an O nine. 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.920 A dude, I'm wondering what kind of the threats you're seeing. 0:10:15.960 --> 0:10:21.120 Obviously there's decades of attacks on abortion access providers, including 0:10:21.120 --> 0:10:25.640 a lot of fatal attacks, assassinations, acid attacks, numerous bombings 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.200 and attempted bombings. How has the character of who is 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.120 making the threats and who you see as threats started 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.360 to change over the recent years. I mean the only 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:38.240 and a thing is a big yeah, that's that's weird. 0:10:38.440 --> 0:10:41.440 You know, we've been following the same Christian nationalists for 0:10:41.640 --> 0:10:45.440 years and largely they have the same playbook. They make 0:10:45.480 --> 0:10:47.960 a few changes to it. A lot of them are older. 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:51.800 You know, it's lock in blocks or invasions. There's a 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:55.320 few Catholics who get really aggressive and like shove their 0:10:55.320 --> 0:10:59.240 way into stuff. But it's not um. It hasn't been 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:03.120 big surprise is until recently, and and a lot of 0:11:03.120 --> 0:11:05.760 the time in the past, even when there was extreme 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:10.840 violence happening amongst these people. It was still sort of 0:11:10.880 --> 0:11:17.439 tied back to Christian identity stuff, and now we're really 0:11:17.480 --> 0:11:20.600 starting to see it branching out. And honestly, I blame 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.520 I blame a few things. One, just the Internet in general, 0:11:24.760 --> 0:11:31.360 but also the pandemic kind of galvanized extremists across a 0:11:31.360 --> 0:11:35.560 lot of spheres, and um you started seeing a lot 0:11:35.600 --> 0:11:40.160 of Christian identity people that weren't necessarily militia people starting 0:11:40.160 --> 0:11:44.880 to mingle with militia people. And then you know, militia 0:11:44.920 --> 0:11:49.000 people starting to mingle with white suprise like over white supremacists, 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:54.840 and um so now there's this cross breeding that's happening 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:58.200 where like I mean, the gropers are a great example 0:11:58.200 --> 0:12:00.760 of just like this weird emailed them of things that 0:12:01.120 --> 0:12:03.840 didn't exist in the same sphere before her. Now they're 0:12:03.840 --> 0:12:08.000 their own movement. Yeah. I can't tell you how much 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:12.400 I hate that. Like other people who who aren't weirdos 0:12:12.440 --> 0:12:14.560 who spend all of their time on Nazi Telegram know 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:18.160 what gropers are now. Yeah, it's extremely frustrating. It's the 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.440 worst thing in the world. Yeah. One of the weird 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:23.480 things about doing this type of research for years is 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:27.840 seeing like on YouTube, like thumbnails by like Stephen Colbert 0:12:28.000 --> 0:12:32.600 talking about like wacky like nonsense that I've known about 0:12:32.679 --> 0:12:35.319 for years and him talking about it like like it's 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:38.400 this big new thing. They're always like, oh wow, the 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.800 little tiny corner of the internet I was just watching 0:12:41.840 --> 0:12:45.920 and staring at now is like it's something that isn't 0:12:45.960 --> 0:12:51.160 like a regular Libs political lexicon. And that's like horrible. 0:12:51.960 --> 0:12:55.679 Yeah broke in posting about the Kalie you guy, you know, 0:12:56.040 --> 0:13:01.480 yeah that was That was a are drinking night for me. 0:13:02.600 --> 0:13:05.440 That was a hard drinking night for me. And it's 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:08.280 so hard to explain to people why it's so bad. 0:13:08.440 --> 0:13:11.560 You're like, oh, well, it's just so once back in 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:19.600 the twenties there was this lady named Savitri Devy. Now, yeah, 0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:24.360 it's it's it's really troubling because, um, it's making its 0:13:24.400 --> 0:13:30.040 way into traditional Christian identity stuff, you know, um evangelical stuff, 0:13:30.080 --> 0:13:33.160 quiverful stuff is now starting to cross over way more 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:37.200 aggressively with MILITIAUS stuff and and with like over white 0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:50.400 supremacist neo Nazi stuff. It's such a problem because and 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:52.720 this is something in Bert oh Echo you know, noted 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:56.520 a long time ago, but like fascism is deeply syncretic right, 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.079 and we're that's what we're talking about right now, is 0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:01.760 its ability. It's like a Katamari. I refer back to 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:03.400 that game a lot because it does just keep picking 0:14:03.440 --> 0:14:07.800 things up, and um, we don't really do that as 0:14:07.880 --> 0:14:12.040 much on like everyone from like the center left to 0:14:12.200 --> 0:14:16.719 like weirdo anarchists and and and whatnot. Like everyone's got 0:14:16.720 --> 0:14:19.760 their own little box, right, and there's some interplay, but 0:14:20.000 --> 0:14:22.080 for the most part, people on the left really like 0:14:22.200 --> 0:14:25.320 making boxes and people on the right it's just one 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.520 big ball pit where everybody's smearing their diseases and snot 0:14:29.560 --> 0:14:36.040 around and it's not great now. And I mean, we 0:14:36.120 --> 0:14:38.800 need to figure out some sort of solidarity because like 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.720 even with the abortion protests that are happening this week, 0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.320 we're already seeing people co opting things and turning it 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:50.240 in really destructive directions. Um, I mean, you know, the 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:55.920 entire cult of boba back and you know, I mean 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.360 I'm actually worried about that as at this point it 0:14:59.360 --> 0:15:02.240 feels like a get astroturb. It doesn't feel like they're 0:15:02.240 --> 0:15:07.040 fighting with actual abortion providers and saying that, you know that, 0:15:07.160 --> 0:15:10.400 like abortion funds are a problem. It's like those are 0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.400 the people actually walking to walk and doing anything about this. 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:15.960 What are you doing besides showing up in bloody pants 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:20.040 and picking fights with cops, Like yeah, it's this. You know. 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:23.840 One of the more uplifting stories that's come out recently 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:26.640 is that in France, UM, the left is doing a 0:15:26.680 --> 0:15:29.360 popular front again in order to kind of rest control 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:32.080 of the government from Macron. Will see how it works, right, 0:15:32.400 --> 0:15:34.520 This is just something that's kind of been announced, and 0:15:34.880 --> 0:15:36.520 but this is something like that. This has happened a 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:40.040 few times in the past in different formulations, and I 0:15:40.080 --> 0:15:43.160 do kind of it would be nice to see a 0:15:43.240 --> 0:15:47.960 broad popular front in favor of abortion access at a 0:15:48.040 --> 0:15:50.720 very blunt level, but that would involve people not just 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:54.000 getting on board with trying to rest control from the 0:15:54.080 --> 0:15:57.400 right back electorally, but people supporting a legalism. A lot 0:15:57.440 --> 0:15:59.360 of people are going to have to do things that 0:15:59.400 --> 0:16:01.680 are not lead goal in order to maintain access to 0:16:01.720 --> 0:16:04.920 reproductive healthcare. You know. There's the other side of it, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.160 is like hardline anarchists will have to realize that working 0:16:08.160 --> 0:16:11.880 with lives is occasionally useful UM and using them as 0:16:11.880 --> 0:16:16.000 body shields sometimes can can let you do more illegalist 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.160 type practice. So there's there's both in terms of like 0:16:20.360 --> 0:16:22.960 people who are really dogmatic on the left being like, okay, 0:16:23.280 --> 0:16:26.240 there's types, there's certain times where this type of this 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:29.640 this intersectionalism can be really useful, and then people who 0:16:29.640 --> 0:16:33.920 are less radical having to be okay with more radical 0:16:33.920 --> 0:16:37.600 tactics happening. I mean, my biggest fear right now is 0:16:37.640 --> 0:16:41.840 the mass criminalization event that's about to happen. Right you know, 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.320 no matter what, people's pregnancies are going to be criminalized 0:16:46.400 --> 0:16:48.640 in various forms. If you have a miscarriage, it's going 0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.360 to be criminalized. You're going to have to be more 0:16:51.440 --> 0:16:54.760 cautious about how you use your phone and what you 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:58.840 say in the emergency room, and you know, what you 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:02.360 say to people in your own family. And I don't 0:17:02.400 --> 0:17:06.080 think that most people on our side are prepared to 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:09.520 have that level of caution or divorce themselves from technology 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.520 and the way that kind of needs to happen for 0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.880 people to stay safe. I'm also worried that, like, as 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:20.800 a movement, um, we're not really identifying the fact that 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:25.080 it's all about bodily autonomy, and so that means everybody 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.600 trying to access trance healthcare is as much or more 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.560 so at risk and um, you know, and we have 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:36.320 so much to learn from the sex work industry about 0:17:36.359 --> 0:17:39.840 all of this, right, Like so much of what is 0:17:39.880 --> 0:17:43.960 happening now was built on like the permissiveness of what 0:17:44.119 --> 0:17:49.040 people accepted under FOSTA and SESTA and um, you know, 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:52.240 that's how all of us got de prioritized and stupid 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.680 algorithms in the first place. And and then all of 0:17:54.720 --> 0:17:56.760 a sudden weren't allowed to put ads out for like 0:17:56.920 --> 0:18:02.280 legitimate health care services, and keeping ourselves in boxes is 0:18:02.359 --> 0:18:06.840 really doing everybody a disservice. Everybody that's been criminalized, everybody 0:18:06.880 --> 0:18:10.040 who just trying to exist is at risk right now, 0:18:10.200 --> 0:18:14.320 is in this together? Yeah, it's um. You know, there's 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.120 that famous quote from Who's a Minister of some sort 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:20.920 during you know, the Weimar years about first they came force, 0:18:21.040 --> 0:18:24.359 you know, YadA YadA, YadA, um, and it is like 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.040 it's always true with fascists. But that doesn't mean that 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.200 people ever spot it while it's happening, right, because there's 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:35.040 there's very few groups that mainstream America has less inherent 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:38.320 sympathy for than sex workers, and the reality is that 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.560 they were testing a lot of this out on those 0:18:40.560 --> 0:18:42.879 people because they are marginalized. And I guess one of 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:46.200 the things I hope we'll see and that might have 0:18:46.320 --> 0:18:48.760 some positive developments is that there are a lot of 0:18:48.760 --> 0:18:50.960 sex workers out there with a lot of ops set 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:55.200 tips that they can give other people. Now, um, it 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:57.320 would be dope if you know, there were folks like 0:18:57.359 --> 0:19:00.160 setting up clinics and stuff in that, because I think 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:01.920 there's a lot of information that does need to get 0:19:01.920 --> 0:19:04.080 shared with folks who are not used to thinking about 0:19:04.119 --> 0:19:06.600 any of the stuff they're doing is illegal. I've been 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:09.919 seeing stuff on you know, Facebook, among kind of friends 0:19:09.920 --> 0:19:12.240 of mine who are more middle of the road and 0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:15.240 family members who are pretty much centrist politically, where they're 0:19:15.280 --> 0:19:17.000 talking about like, hey, if you need to go on 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.439 a camping trip in another state, I'll take you one 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:21.840 your camping trip. And it's like, I get it, Like 0:19:21.880 --> 0:19:24.840 it's great to express solidarity, but will you feel that 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:27.000 way when it's actually a felony and people are getting 0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:29.840 twenty years sentences for doing it? Right, Like, because that's 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:34.080 where we're headed, you know. Yeah, Yeah, I mean people 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.359 need to get more serious about moving their data out 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:40.400 of the country altogether, you know, like thinking about what 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:45.160 can be subpoena. Yeah, the folks at Hacking and Hustling 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:49.320 are doing really amazing work to spread sort of uh 0:19:49.440 --> 0:19:52.560 sex work and sex work adjacent upset knowledge to other 0:19:52.960 --> 0:19:56.879 communities too. Like they're amazing. Um, that's great. I was 0:19:56.920 --> 0:19:58.879 not aware of what they were doing. Um, would you 0:19:58.920 --> 0:20:01.159 mind giving like a little a brief overview of what 0:20:01.200 --> 0:20:04.240 that is? Try to reach out to them, But I've 0:20:04.320 --> 0:20:06.320 only been in a couple of sessions with them, but 0:20:06.680 --> 0:20:10.840 they're they're generally just sharing information about like tightening up 0:20:10.840 --> 0:20:16.119 your digital footprint and also being conscious about how having 0:20:16.520 --> 0:20:20.320 multiple like if you have to have a clandistine identity online, 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.680 how you can keep that from leaking over into any 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.320 of your other digital identities. Right, it's it's and I 0:20:27.320 --> 0:20:30.040 mean it's a really important distinction because even if you 0:20:30.119 --> 0:20:34.840 have something like a socc account on something like Facebook, 0:20:35.640 --> 0:20:37.920 based on how you set it up and what other 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.840 accounts that's connected to and who your friend in that process, 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:43.560 it can very easily find its way back to you 0:20:43.600 --> 0:20:48.280 and the people connected to you. So how do Yeah, 0:20:48.320 --> 0:20:51.320 I mean, whenever somebody angers this podcast, we have Garrison 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:55.080 tracked them down. It's very easy. Yeah, that is that 0:20:55.200 --> 0:20:57.280 is that is true. I have a whole whole folder 0:20:57.400 --> 0:20:59.919 of people dropping their kids off at school. That's right, 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:04.600 that's right, So you know, keep your eye out, Hello Fresh, 0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:08.480 don't screw with us again. Or that one reviewer that 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.520 said that there was the woman on the podcast and 0:21:10.640 --> 0:21:14.240 was annoying. I know who you are. I was able 0:21:14.240 --> 0:21:16.480 to I was able to track back via your Apple account. 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:24.920 Just one, just somebody tried to request access to one 0:21:24.920 --> 0:21:27.880 of my folders that's connected to We had a danure 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:30.480 six document where we had identified a bunch of people 0:21:30.840 --> 0:21:33.240 and so I just linked it to you know, Google 0:21:33.320 --> 0:21:36.360 drive things so that pressed people could get to stuff. 0:21:36.240 --> 0:21:38.879 And somebody just out of nowhere trying to access one 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:42.679 of them the other day and requested permission. I'm just like, 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:44.240 all I had to do was look up your name 0:21:44.280 --> 0:21:47.399 in the word abortion, Like, go on and try a 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:56.600 little harder. Um so, Cat, I'm wondering. Number One, For 0:21:56.640 --> 0:22:00.240 people who are like Piste and feeling helpless, there are 0:22:00.359 --> 0:22:03.760 things that folks can do to help, assuming you live 0:22:03.800 --> 0:22:06.359 in a state that there's anything at all around because 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.359 like a lot of people who are hundreds of files 0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:10.400 away from any kind of clinic. But if you're not, 0:22:10.920 --> 0:22:12.600 I know, there are ways people going to help. Do 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:15.159 you have any kind of pieces of advice for folks 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:18.240 interested in being of use? There are so many things, 0:22:18.400 --> 0:22:20.479 right I mean, right now, I think the biggest thing 0:22:20.640 --> 0:22:24.199 that the movement needs more than anything is abortion funds 0:22:24.200 --> 0:22:27.640 and practical support funds really need financial help because they 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:30.720 are paying to move people around as as needed to 0:22:30.800 --> 0:22:33.720 get them care, right, So the money thing is always 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.159 the obvious. But um, we're actually having an event on 0:22:37.280 --> 0:22:41.439 July sevent that is sort of an orientation day for 0:22:41.560 --> 0:22:43.879 new people coming to the movement who want to volunteer 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:46.480 and don't know where. So we're going to cover things 0:22:46.520 --> 0:22:50.080 like how you become a clinic escort, what it means 0:22:50.160 --> 0:22:55.840 to volunteer on like an abortion fund or practical support hotline, um, 0:22:55.920 --> 0:22:58.000 how you can get involved in lobbying groups, how you 0:22:58.040 --> 0:23:00.560 can get involved in direct action groups, and sort of 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.560 pre vetting people and then getting them out to the 0:23:03.640 --> 0:23:07.159 organizations that actually have capacity to take on volunteers right now, 0:23:07.200 --> 0:23:09.360 because a lot of what's happening, like we already saw 0:23:09.400 --> 0:23:12.480 it in Texas where people really wanted to volunteer to 0:23:12.560 --> 0:23:16.480 help in Texas after SPA came down, but they were 0:23:16.520 --> 0:23:20.119 doing things like calling the Abortion Fun Hotline to try 0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.040 and get to people, and it's like, no, you can't 0:23:22.040 --> 0:23:25.520 clog up the hotline. That doesn't help anybody. So we're 0:23:25.560 --> 0:23:27.359 trying to take some of the lift off of the 0:23:27.440 --> 0:23:31.120 orgs that are already overtaxed that their people, give them 0:23:31.119 --> 0:23:34.320 some background information, give them a better idea of what 0:23:34.440 --> 0:23:37.760 the landscape is in the movement, and then make the 0:23:37.800 --> 0:23:41.199