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Speaker 1: Oh, it could happen here and earlier this week, not

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Speaker 1: the week you're hearing this, but the Weekly recorded it.

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Speaker 1: It did it being the end of Roe v. Wade

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Speaker 1: via Supreme Court fiat, and also the coming end of

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Speaker 1: a hundred years of social progress unless people get real

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Speaker 1: organized and aggressive, real fucking quick. I'm Robert Evans. Who else?

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Speaker 1: Who else? Do I got on with me? Today? Is

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Speaker 1: there a Is there a? Is there a Christopher Wong

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Speaker 1: on the line? Yes, there there is one. There are

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Speaker 1: many others, but but I am me, yeah, the others

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Speaker 1: do not count. Um? Is there a Garrison Davis on

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Speaker 1: the line? The only one that I know of? That's right,

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Speaker 1: that's right. We exterminated the others in a in a

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Speaker 1: brutal set of purges. Alla stalin um. And then of

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Speaker 1: course Sharene Lonnie and a shrine. I'm here too. Would

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Speaker 1: you like to introduce Sophie and of I mean the

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Speaker 1: one and only Sophie. Okay, well that's us. Well, and

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Speaker 1: now today I am intensely excited to introduce our guest, um,

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Speaker 1: who is a cool person doing cool stuff to steal

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Speaker 1: another one of our podcasters, Cat Green of the Abortion

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Speaker 1: Access Front, Cat Welcome to the show. Thank you for

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Speaker 1: coming on. I know this has been a hell week

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Speaker 1: for you. Oh yeah, thanks for having me on. I

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Speaker 1: really appreciate it. Now, Um, you and I have a

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Speaker 1: friend in common, and you guys were actually at a

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Speaker 1: national conference for abortion access when the news dropped a

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Speaker 1: little early. Do you want to talk to us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what happened there? Yeah? I mean, now

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Speaker 1: that the conference is over, I can say that we

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Speaker 1: are in one of the worst cities in the world

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Speaker 1: to be in when all of this happened, Orlando, Florida,

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Speaker 1: which is basically made of paper sets right. Honestly, you

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Speaker 1: could have stopped that sentence at one of the worst

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Speaker 1: cities to be in. Yeah, we had actually been out

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Speaker 1: to dinner at the oldest restaurant in Florida earlier that night,

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Speaker 1: and it was a lovely evening. Um, even though like

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Speaker 1: some angry driver tried to kill our mutual friend over

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Speaker 1: parking space Florida over that part, you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: in Florida. Yeah, you know. Also, the day had started

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Speaker 1: with their already being a bomb threat at a clinic

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Speaker 1: in Knoxville, so I was trying to help people find

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Speaker 1: information about that. Earlier in the day and then um,

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Speaker 1: we went out to dinner thinking that we got to relax,

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Speaker 1: and then came back to the news as it was

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Speaker 1: breaking and into the lobby of our hotel, where um,

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Speaker 1: the remaining providers and advocates that were there were, um,

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Speaker 1: just trying to make do. Yeah. So Cat, I, first

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Speaker 1: of all, I guess we should talk about what the

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Speaker 1: Abortion Access Front does and you were job there because

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Speaker 1: this is something I don't think a lot of people

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Speaker 1: think about it. One of the things that's become clear

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Speaker 1: to me from some of the reaction of some folks

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Speaker 1: this week on the more liberal side of things is

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Speaker 1: there is a general unawareness of how violent and intense

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Speaker 1: the threats against abortion access providers have been for like

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Speaker 1: forty years. Yeah. Well, so, Abortion Access Front was founded

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Speaker 1: by Liz Winstead, my partner who was the co creator

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Speaker 1: of The Daily Show, and started as a progressive advocacy

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Speaker 1: and messaging hub. And so we were making funny videos

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Speaker 1: about abortion and then Trump got elected. We're like, oh wow,

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Speaker 1: our job's got way more serious all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: And so we had like volunteers in the week after election,

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Speaker 1: and so we started becoming matchmakers for volunteers to UM

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Speaker 1: different clinics around the country, and we were doing comedy

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Speaker 1: tours where we were trying to build community around the

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Speaker 1: n x UM in different states, and so we would

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Speaker 1: do a comedy show, have a have a provider on

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Speaker 1: at the end to talk about what was at stake locally,

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Speaker 1: and then get people to sign up to help because

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Speaker 1: people didn't have access to contractors in many of the

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Speaker 1: places we were going, you know, like we would go

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Speaker 1: out and do landscaping work when we were on tour

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Speaker 1: because we were just trying to help out wherever we could.

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Speaker 1: And in the course of that, the nice folks at

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Speaker 1: the National Abortion Federation reached out to us and we're like,

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Speaker 1: we're a little concerned about you putting providers on stage,

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Speaker 1: maybe we should talk about your security plans. So they

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Speaker 1: they were out with us the first two years and

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Speaker 1: UM then we're giving me information about people we needed

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Speaker 1: to watch out for. So I got way more involved

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Speaker 1: in creating these security plans around our shows and our tours,

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Speaker 1: and UM started doing a lot of my own research

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Speaker 1: on anti abortion extremists because as we started talking to

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Speaker 1: more people the clinic escorts in front of the clinics,

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Speaker 1: we were getting information about not just leadership with the

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Speaker 1: people on the ground where they were the most afraid of.

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Speaker 1: So then I was like, I wish I could just

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Speaker 1: put all this into something where I could look something

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Speaker 1: up by a ZIP code and be able to tell

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Speaker 1: who I need to watch out for in a particular area.

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Speaker 1: And that didn't really exist. So, um, there was just

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Speaker 1: a whisper network of escorts and then the leadership research

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Speaker 1: that NAP was doing. And so I started consoliding all

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Speaker 1: my research into a database for all of us to

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Speaker 1: be able to use and track incidents and organizations and

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Speaker 1: bad actors all over the country. I mean, that's that's

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Speaker 1: extremely important, but also extremely cool. Um, it is that

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Speaker 1: you brought up right at the start of your what

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Speaker 1: you were saying that there was a shooting at the

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Speaker 1: Knoxville Clinic. Oh, not a shooting, There was a bomb

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Speaker 1: scare at the at the Knoxville Clinic UM on Monday,

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Speaker 1: and there was there was an person and the Plan

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Speaker 1: Parenthood in Knoxville this past New Year's Eve. UM, and

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Speaker 1: that same clinic, that same Plan Parenthood that was burned

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Speaker 1: down on New Year's Eve actually had its front door

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Speaker 1: shot out about a year earlier. And uh, because this

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Speaker 1: this is one of the more frustrating cases. If you

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Speaker 1: look this up, you can see that like the fire

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Speaker 1: department has said it was an arson, UM, the a

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Speaker 1: t F is investigating, the FBI is investigating. They've both

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Speaker 1: get given the kind of boilerplate statements they've given those instances.

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Speaker 1: You don't see a lot from the local police. I'm

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Speaker 1: curious if you have anything to say about like the

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Speaker 1: degree to which the local police have been useful in

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Speaker 1: responding to this. Well, I don't work with the local

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Speaker 1: police at all. Um. I you know, I'm a TV

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Speaker 1: person that got into uh doing extremist research. I'm an

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Speaker 1: editor and that I sort information, right, So like that

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Speaker 1: made sense to me, But law enforcement doesn't really take

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Speaker 1: me too seriously. Um. But the people on the ground

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Speaker 1: have a lot of thoughts about who it could be. Right,

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Speaker 1: there are known people in the Knoxville area who have

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Speaker 1: caused all sorts of problems. There was another arson at

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Speaker 1: a different community center there too, um, and several white

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Speaker 1: supremacists were arrested after protesting a black Lives Matter UH

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Speaker 1: event maybe two years ago. And so there's here's the thing.

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Speaker 1: There's information about the Knoxville fire that went out on

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Speaker 1: telegram with an order of nine angles, Nazi claiming credit

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Speaker 1: for it. And how hard can it be to find

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Speaker 1: a pagan Naxi in Knoxville? You go to a golf

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Speaker 1: club and be like, who's hit you in the face here?

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Speaker 1: You know? So, Yeah, I feel like there are hindrances

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Speaker 1: to the investigation. Um, and a lot of the a

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Speaker 1: lot of the activists on the ground have good leads

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Speaker 1: that are not being followed. Yeah, I guess that's probably

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Speaker 1: the most direct thing that can be said about it.

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Speaker 1: What so to the extent that like, there's seemingly not

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Speaker 1: a lot in a lot of these states that is

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Speaker 1: going to be done preemptively by law enforcement. Um. When

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Speaker 1: it comes to like actually tracing out the threats, Uh,

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Speaker 1: how much do you feel like you have a chance

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Speaker 1: to actually stop them from carrying out an action? And

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Speaker 1: how much of it do you feel is just like

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Speaker 1: we need to be documenting this for for when it happens.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're already getting early warning about events. We're

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Speaker 1: already because we tracked the people who There are a

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Speaker 1: number of groups that create the same kind of actions

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Speaker 1: that are either invasions or blockades at various clinics and

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Speaker 1: people who have been organizing around this for decades, right,

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Speaker 1: so in tracking them and starting to put the pieces together,

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Speaker 1: we're already getting early warning about where they're headed, about

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Speaker 1: who needs to be alerted. You know, there have been

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Speaker 1: at this point three incidents. Just like I'm working with

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Speaker 1: a group of volunteers. These are all people who either

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Speaker 1: escort at clinics or part of a part of advocacy

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Speaker 1: orgs that you know, are not getting paid to do intel,

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Speaker 1: but they they're invested in the cause, and so they

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Speaker 1: just follow this stuff on the regular and we're all

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Speaker 1: in touch with each other, and all of a sudden,

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Speaker 1: it's like, oh, you know, this person who's been a

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Speaker 1: part of twelve other blockades in the last three years

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Speaker 1: has been seen going on a tour and said, the

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Speaker 1: next three stops, he's going to, let's tell all the

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Speaker 1: clinics in the neighborhood what's happening and they can be

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Speaker 1: a little bit better prepared. And that's you know, I mean, honestly,

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Speaker 1: because the abortion movement is not super supported by law

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Speaker 1: enforcement largely, um, it seemed like a necessary thing for

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Speaker 1: everybody to start keeping their own records for their own safety.

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Speaker 1: And that's really how all this came together. Now, it's

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Speaker 1: interesting to me that you you brought up one of

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Speaker 1: kind of the leads suspects. I guess you might say

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Speaker 1: for the attack on the Knoxville clinic was an O nine.

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Speaker 1: A dude, I'm wondering what kind of the threats you're seeing.

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Speaker 1: Obviously there's decades of attacks on abortion access providers, including

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Speaker 1: a lot of fatal attacks, assassinations, acid attacks, numerous bombings

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Speaker 1: and attempted bombings. How has the character of who is

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Speaker 1: making the threats and who you see as threats started

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Speaker 1: to change over the recent years. I mean the only

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Speaker 1: and a thing is a big yeah, that's that's weird.

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Speaker 1: You know, we've been following the same Christian nationalists for

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Speaker 1: years and largely they have the same playbook. They make

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Speaker 1: a few changes to it. A lot of them are older.

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Speaker 1: You know, it's lock in blocks or invasions. There's a

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Speaker 1: few Catholics who get really aggressive and like shove their

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Speaker 1: way into stuff. But it's not um. It hasn't been

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Speaker 1: big surprise is until recently, and and a lot of

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Speaker 1: the time in the past, even when there was extreme

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Speaker 1: violence happening amongst these people. It was still sort of

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Speaker 1: tied back to Christian identity stuff, and now we're really

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Speaker 1: starting to see it branching out. And honestly, I blame

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Speaker 1: I blame a few things. One, just the Internet in general,

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Speaker 1: but also the pandemic kind of galvanized extremists across a

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Speaker 1: lot of spheres, and um you started seeing a lot

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Speaker 1: of Christian identity people that weren't necessarily militia people starting

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Speaker 1: to mingle with militia people. And then you know, militia

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Speaker 1: people starting to mingle with white suprise like over white supremacists,

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Speaker 1: and um so now there's this cross breeding that's happening

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Speaker 1: where like I mean, the gropers are a great example

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Speaker 1: of just like this weird emailed them of things that

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Speaker 1: didn't exist in the same sphere before her. Now they're

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Speaker 1: their own movement. Yeah. I can't tell you how much

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Speaker 1: I hate that. Like other people who who aren't weirdos

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Speaker 1: who spend all of their time on Nazi Telegram know

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Speaker 1: what gropers are now. Yeah, it's extremely frustrating. It's the

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Speaker 1: worst thing in the world. Yeah. One of the weird

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Speaker 1: things about doing this type of research for years is

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Speaker 1: seeing like on YouTube, like thumbnails by like Stephen Colbert

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Speaker 1: talking about like wacky like nonsense that I've known about

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Speaker 1: for years and him talking about it like like it's

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Speaker 1: this big new thing. They're always like, oh wow, the

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Speaker 1: little tiny corner of the internet I was just watching

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Speaker 1: and staring at now is like it's something that isn't

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Speaker 1: like a regular Libs political lexicon. And that's like horrible.

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Speaker 1: Yeah broke in posting about the Kalie you guy, you know,

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Speaker 1: yeah that was That was a are drinking night for me.

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Speaker 1: That was a hard drinking night for me. And it's

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Speaker 1: so hard to explain to people why it's so bad.

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Speaker 1: You're like, oh, well, it's just so once back in

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Speaker 1: the twenties there was this lady named Savitri Devy. Now, yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's it's really troubling because, um, it's making its

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Speaker 1: way into traditional Christian identity stuff, you know, um evangelical stuff,

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Speaker 1: quiverful stuff is now starting to cross over way more

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Speaker 1: aggressively with MILITIAUS stuff and and with like over white

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Speaker 1: supremacist neo Nazi stuff. It's such a problem because and

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Speaker 1: this is something in Bert oh Echo you know, noted

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Speaker 1: a long time ago, but like fascism is deeply syncretic right,

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Speaker 1: and we're that's what we're talking about right now, is

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Speaker 1: its ability. It's like a Katamari. I refer back to

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Speaker 1: that game a lot because it does just keep picking

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Speaker 1: things up, and um, we don't really do that as

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Speaker 1: much on like everyone from like the center left to

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Speaker 1: like weirdo anarchists and and and whatnot. Like everyone's got

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Speaker 1: their own little box, right, and there's some interplay, but

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Speaker 1: for the most part, people on the left really like

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Speaker 1: making boxes and people on the right it's just one

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Speaker 1: big ball pit where everybody's smearing their diseases and snot

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Speaker 1: around and it's not great now. And I mean, we

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Speaker 1: need to figure out some sort of solidarity because like

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Speaker 1: even with the abortion protests that are happening this week,

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Speaker 1: we're already seeing people co opting things and turning it

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Speaker 1: in really destructive directions. Um, I mean, you know, the

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Speaker 1: entire cult of boba back and you know, I mean

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Speaker 1: I'm actually worried about that as at this point it

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Speaker 1: feels like a get astroturb. It doesn't feel like they're

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Speaker 1: fighting with actual abortion providers and saying that, you know that,

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Speaker 1: like abortion funds are a problem. It's like those are

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Speaker 1: the people actually walking to walk and doing anything about this.

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Speaker 1: What are you doing besides showing up in bloody pants

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Speaker 1: and picking fights with cops, Like yeah, it's this. You know.

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Speaker 1: One of the more uplifting stories that's come out recently

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Speaker 1: is that in France, UM, the left is doing a

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Speaker 1: popular front again in order to kind of rest control

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Speaker 1: of the government from Macron. Will see how it works, right,

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Speaker 1: This is just something that's kind of been announced, and

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Speaker 1: but this is something like that. This has happened a

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Speaker 1: few times in the past in different formulations, and I

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Speaker 1: do kind of it would be nice to see a

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Speaker 1: broad popular front in favor of abortion access at a

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Speaker 1: very blunt level, but that would involve people not just

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Speaker 1: getting on board with trying to rest control from the

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Speaker 1: right back electorally, but people supporting a legalism. A lot

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Speaker 1: of people are going to have to do things that

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Speaker 1: are not lead goal in order to maintain access to

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Speaker 1: reproductive healthcare. You know. There's the other side of it,

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Speaker 1: is like hardline anarchists will have to realize that working

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Speaker 1: with lives is occasionally useful UM and using them as

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Speaker 1: body shields sometimes can can let you do more illegalist

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Speaker 1: type practice. So there's there's both in terms of like

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Speaker 1: people who are really dogmatic on the left being like, okay,

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Speaker 1: there's types, there's certain times where this type of this

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Speaker 1: this intersectionalism can be really useful, and then people who

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Speaker 1: are less radical having to be okay with more radical

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Speaker 1: tactics happening. I mean, my biggest fear right now is

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Speaker 1: the mass criminalization event that's about to happen. Right you know,

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Speaker 1: no matter what, people's pregnancies are going to be criminalized

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Speaker 1: in various forms. If you have a miscarriage, it's going

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Speaker 1: to be criminalized. You're going to have to be more

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Speaker 1: cautious about how you use your phone and what you

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Speaker 1: say in the emergency room, and you know, what you

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Speaker 1: say to people in your own family. And I don't

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Speaker 1: think that most people on our side are prepared to

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Speaker 1: have that level of caution or divorce themselves from technology

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Speaker 1: and the way that kind of needs to happen for

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Speaker 1: people to stay safe. I'm also worried that, like, as

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Speaker 1: a movement, um, we're not really identifying the fact that

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Speaker 1: it's all about bodily autonomy, and so that means everybody

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Speaker 1: trying to access trance healthcare is as much or more

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Speaker 1: so at risk and um, you know, and we have

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Speaker 1: so much to learn from the sex work industry about

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Speaker 1: all of this, right, Like so much of what is

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Speaker 1: happening now was built on like the permissiveness of what

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Speaker 1: people accepted under FOSTA and SESTA and um, you know,

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Speaker 1: that's how all of us got de prioritized and stupid

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Speaker 1: algorithms in the first place. And and then all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden weren't allowed to put ads out for like

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Speaker 1: legitimate health care services, and keeping ourselves in boxes is

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Speaker 1: really doing everybody a disservice. Everybody that's been criminalized, everybody

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Speaker 1: who just trying to exist is at risk right now,

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Speaker 1: is in this together? Yeah, it's um. You know, there's

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Speaker 1: that famous quote from Who's a Minister of some sort

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Speaker 1: during you know, the Weimar years about first they came force,

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Speaker 1: you know, YadA YadA, YadA, um, and it is like

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Speaker 1: it's always true with fascists. But that doesn't mean that

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Speaker 1: people ever spot it while it's happening, right, because there's

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Speaker 1: there's very few groups that mainstream America has less inherent

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Speaker 1: sympathy for than sex workers, and the reality is that

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Speaker 1: they were testing a lot of this out on those

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Speaker 1: people because they are marginalized. And I guess one of

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Speaker 1: the things I hope we'll see and that might have

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Speaker 1: some positive developments is that there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: sex workers out there with a lot of ops set

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Speaker 1: tips that they can give other people. Now, um, it

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Speaker 1: would be dope if you know, there were folks like

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Speaker 1: setting up clinics and stuff in that, because I think

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of information that does need to get

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Speaker 1: shared with folks who are not used to thinking about

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Speaker 1: any of the stuff they're doing is illegal. I've been

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Speaker 1: seeing stuff on you know, Facebook, among kind of friends

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Speaker 1: of mine who are more middle of the road and

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Speaker 1: family members who are pretty much centrist politically, where they're

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Speaker 1: talking about like, hey, if you need to go on

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Speaker 1: a camping trip in another state, I'll take you one

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Speaker 1: your camping trip. And it's like, I get it, Like

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Speaker 1: it's great to express solidarity, but will you feel that

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Speaker 1: way when it's actually a felony and people are getting

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Speaker 1: twenty years sentences for doing it? Right, Like, because that's

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Speaker 1: where we're headed, you know. Yeah, Yeah, I mean people

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Speaker 1: need to get more serious about moving their data out

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Speaker 1: of the country altogether, you know, like thinking about what

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Speaker 1: can be subpoena. Yeah, the folks at Hacking and Hustling

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Speaker 1: are doing really amazing work to spread sort of uh

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Speaker 1: sex work and sex work adjacent upset knowledge to other

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Speaker 1: communities too. Like they're amazing. Um, that's great. I was

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Speaker 1: not aware of what they were doing. Um, would you

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Speaker 1: mind giving like a little a brief overview of what

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Speaker 1: that is? Try to reach out to them, But I've

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Speaker 1: only been in a couple of sessions with them, but

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Speaker 1: they're they're generally just sharing information about like tightening up

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Speaker 1: your digital footprint and also being conscious about how having

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Speaker 1: multiple like if you have to have a clandistine identity online,

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Speaker 1: how you can keep that from leaking over into any

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Speaker 1: of your other digital identities. Right, it's it's and I

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Speaker 1: mean it's a really important distinction because even if you

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Speaker 1: have something like a socc account on something like Facebook,

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Speaker 1: based on how you set it up and what other

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Speaker 1: accounts that's connected to and who your friend in that process,

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Speaker 1: it can very easily find its way back to you

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Speaker 1: and the people connected to you. So how do Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, whenever somebody angers this podcast, we have Garrison

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Speaker 1: tracked them down. It's very easy. Yeah, that is that

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Speaker 1: is that is true. I have a whole whole folder

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Speaker 1: of people dropping their kids off at school. That's right,

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Speaker 1: that's right, So you know, keep your eye out, Hello Fresh,

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Speaker 1: don't screw with us again. Or that one reviewer that

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Speaker 1: said that there was the woman on the podcast and

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Speaker 1: was annoying. I know who you are. I was able

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Speaker 1: to I was able to track back via your Apple account.

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Speaker 1: Just one, just somebody tried to request access to one

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Speaker 1: of my folders that's connected to We had a danure

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Speaker 1: six document where we had identified a bunch of people

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Speaker 1: and so I just linked it to you know, Google

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Speaker 1: drive things so that pressed people could get to stuff.

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Speaker 1: And somebody just out of nowhere trying to access one

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Speaker 1: of them the other day and requested permission. I'm just like,

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Speaker 1: all I had to do was look up your name

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Speaker 1: in the word abortion, Like, go on and try a

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Speaker 1: little harder. Um so, Cat, I'm wondering. Number One, For

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Speaker 1: people who are like Piste and feeling helpless, there are

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Speaker 1: things that folks can do to help, assuming you live

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Speaker 1: in a state that there's anything at all around because

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Speaker 1: like a lot of people who are hundreds of files

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Speaker 1: away from any kind of clinic. But if you're not,

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Speaker 1: I know, there are ways people going to help. Do

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Speaker 1: you have any kind of pieces of advice for folks

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Speaker 1: interested in being of use? There are so many things,

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Speaker 1: right I mean, right now, I think the biggest thing

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Speaker 1: that the movement needs more than anything is abortion funds

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Speaker 1: and practical support funds really need financial help because they

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Speaker 1: are paying to move people around as as needed to

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Speaker 1: get them care, right, So the money thing is always

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Speaker 1: the obvious. But um, we're actually having an event on

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Speaker 1: July sevent that is sort of an orientation day for

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Speaker 1: new people coming to the movement who want to volunteer

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Speaker 1: and don't know where. So we're going to cover things

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Speaker 1: like how you become a clinic escort, what it means

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Speaker 1: to volunteer on like an abortion fund or practical support hotline, um,

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Speaker 1: how you can get involved in lobbying groups, how you

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Speaker 1: can get involved in direct action groups, and sort of

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Speaker 1: pre vetting people and then getting them out to the

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Speaker 1: organizations that actually have capacity to take on volunteers right now,

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Speaker 1: because a lot of what's happening, like we already saw

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Speaker 1: it in Texas where people really wanted to volunteer to

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Speaker 1: help in Texas after SPA came down, but they were

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Speaker 1: doing things like calling the Abortion Fun Hotline to try

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Speaker 1: and get to people, and it's like, no, you can't

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Speaker 1: clog up the hotline. That doesn't help anybody. So we're

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Speaker 1: trying to take some of the lift off of the

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Speaker 1: orgs that are already overtaxed that their people, give them

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Speaker 1: some background information, give them a better idea of what

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Speaker 1: the landscape is in the movement, and then make the

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Speaker 1: connections to organizations that have the capacity to take them on.

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Speaker 1: So it's called Operations Save Abortion um. And we're gonna

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Speaker 1: do a live stream and house parties all over the country.

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Speaker 1: People are either watching the streams we're doing or having

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Speaker 1: their own local people to talk about how people can

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Speaker 1: get active locally in more direct ways. Yeah. And there's

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Speaker 1: stuff like being an escort, which is is something I've

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Speaker 1: been learning a little bit more about recently. Um. I

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Speaker 1: guess one of the things I'm interested in is like, uh,

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Speaker 1: from a perspective of actually like keeping folks safe. Um,

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Speaker 1: is that something that you feel has like a lot

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Speaker 1: of value or is that something that yeah, um, and

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Speaker 1: is that like people would want to like look at

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Speaker 1: are there kind of resources for for getting involved with that?

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Speaker 1: There are clinic escorting is a little tricky right now

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Speaker 1: because there's a whole lot of clinics that don't know

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Speaker 1: if they're going to be open in eight weeks. So

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Speaker 1: right now, well that's all shaking out. I mean, if

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Speaker 1: you already have an established relationship with your local clinic,

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Speaker 1: definitely check in with them. UM. Clinics in states that

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Speaker 1: are going to see a surge, UM, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York,

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Speaker 1: I mean really anywhere that's still going to have abortion

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Speaker 1: after the twenty six states fall, the entire West coast, Uh,

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Speaker 1: New Mexico, right, Uh, Minnesota, they are all going to

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Speaker 1: need escorts. UM. Which clinic escorting is walking a person

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Speaker 1: from their car to the clinic door past protesters. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's generally, I would say clinics are non engagement clinics,

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Speaker 1: So doing this means that you're there for the patient,

429
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 1: You're not there to get in a protesters face. Some

430
00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: clinics have enough of a protest or presence, like UM

431
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 1: Clinics and Charlotte Clinics in Jackson, Mississippi, where they have

432
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:34,679
Speaker 1: they split it up and they have people that are

433
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: there for the patients and people that are there to

434
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: distract protesters and sort of pull them away from the door,

435
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,040
Speaker 1: you know, just get them a little bit removed so

436
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: that they can get patients past them. This is a

437
00:25:56,600 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 1: little bit less pleasant of a question, but you know,

438
00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 1: I've done for a different cause a lot of the

439
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,640
Speaker 1: same research where you're like spending time in these dark

440
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:07,760
Speaker 1: corners of the Internet making notes of people and threats

441
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,320
Speaker 1: being made, And um, I remember the horrible feeling of

442
00:26:11,359 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 1: like having a specific kind of thing that hadn't quite

443
00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,040
Speaker 1: happened before that I was sure was going to happen,

444
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 1: and then the fucking thing happens. Um, are there particular

445
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,119
Speaker 1: things you are worried about in especially like once this

446
00:26:26,240 --> 00:26:29,480
Speaker 1: comes through like that, that are kind of on your horizon,

447
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 1: Like is there stuff that that people need to be

448
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 1: kind of preparing for in terms of like an escalation

449
00:26:34,760 --> 00:26:39,359
Speaker 1: in direct action against clinics. Absolutely, I mean we're already

450
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:45,800
Speaker 1: seeing increased threats against clinics. Um. This this bomb threat

451
00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:48,800
Speaker 1: the other day was a test balloon, right, But there

452
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: are organizations like POW who are actively aggressively invading clinics

453
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: on the regular and doing things like stealing products of

454
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:01,199
Speaker 1: conception fetle remains right and parading them out to the

455
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: public and naming doctors um in an effort to get

456
00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 1: them hurt. Right, it's it's stochastic terrorism. They're not they

457
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:13,600
Speaker 1: are not going to be the ones to pull the trigger.

458
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:16,119
Speaker 1: They are just putting it out there so that somebody

459
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:18,960
Speaker 1: else does the dirty work for them. And so many

460
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: people are guilty of that right. The church at Plant

461
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 1: Parenthood is another good example. And they've had you know,

462
00:27:26,200 --> 00:27:30,240
Speaker 1: they've had a long presence and spoken um. They moved

463
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 1: to Knoxville, Tennessee, they've set up church plants in Birmingham,

464
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:41,639
Speaker 1: and they've they've been throughout um Oregon and and in

465
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,720
Speaker 1: Oregon they were hiring the crow Boys as their security,

466
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:49,240
Speaker 1: which eventually, unsurprisingly turned into a big fight when counter

467
00:27:49,240 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 1: protesters showed up, the police showed up, tear guessed everybody.

468
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 1: It's like how is what? How is this church to

469
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: you know, like what is anybody trying to get out

470
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,720
Speaker 1: of this? And and so there's a lot of people

471
00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 1: who have been putting it out there for a long

472
00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 1: time that there's all this other ring language of calling

473
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 1: people demons because it makes them easier to kill. There's

474
00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: going to be clinic violence. I mean, there's going to

475
00:28:16,119 --> 00:28:18,680
Speaker 1: be more clinic violence. I should say, all of this

476
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 1: is violent. It's violent to have people out there screaming

477
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: at you and calling you a horror with a giant

478
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:29,639
Speaker 1: sign of fetus, you know parts and then but I

479
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: mean they're really waiting for somebody to like more buildings

480
00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:39,000
Speaker 1: on fire or shoot somebody, and it's going to happen. Yeah, Well,

481
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: does anyone else have anything to get into here? On

482
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:47,719
Speaker 1: that happy note? That happy? I think, Um, it's just

483
00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 1: it's not going to be like actual Nazi extremists that

484
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:53,960
Speaker 1: do a lot of these attacks either, I think, especially

485
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:58,000
Speaker 1: with it of being especially if if like if Rovie

486
00:28:58,040 --> 00:29:02,640
Speaker 1: Wood does get fully taken away, that will justify pretty

487
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 1: violent action. In the minds of like most regular Christians.

488
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: Even when I grew up in like a pretty evangelical

489
00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: uh type of community, those types of attacks against planned

490
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: parenthood were almost that like. There was the there was

491
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,320
Speaker 1: the overall feeling that they were like celebrated, and people

492
00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: who would do it would be lauded it as like

493
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:26,040
Speaker 1: biblical heroes, um, for for like for like just our

494
00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: sending a building like that. That was very much the

495
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:29,600
Speaker 1: sense that I got when I was a kid, Like

496
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: I I remember thinking thinking those thoughts like, oh, that's

497
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:36,320
Speaker 1: what like a good people do. Like that's like people

498
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: who are brave will go and burn down an abortion

499
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: clinic they were openly celebrated. You know, the Army of

500
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: God would have the White Rose banquet to raise money

501
00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: by auctioning off the personal effects of people who had

502
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:52,480
Speaker 1: bombed clinics and shot doctors. And you see a lot

503
00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 1: of that mirrored now in things like the Saints Calendar, right,

504
00:29:57,160 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: and and so you see you see neo Nazis and

505
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:08,160
Speaker 1: other white supremacists promoting the Saints Calendar and then directing

506
00:30:08,240 --> 00:30:11,560
Speaker 1: people to the Army of God website. And then you

507
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:19,240
Speaker 1: see Christian nationalists finding accelerationist handbooks and having that knowledge now, right,

508
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 1: and so they can have the knowledge and loosely collaborate

509
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: without ever having to say, oh, I'm a part of

510
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:29,479
Speaker 1: you know Front or the prow Boys or whatever. Like,

511
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,719
Speaker 1: they won't see themselves as extremists. They'll see themselves as

512
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: like regular Christians. They'll see them as regular conservatives. And

513
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: what they're doing is like is like sanctioned by God,

514
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,720
Speaker 1: and it's like good, righteous, holy work. Um. So I

515
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,320
Speaker 1: think that is definitely something to keep your eye on,

516
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: because it's not all going to be like skull mask

517
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 1: wearing people doing bomb threats. It's going to be like regular,

518
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 1: like regular conservative Christians who are who are like been

519
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: on this right words track the past the past few decades.

520
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:02,960
Speaker 1: Most of the people that we track are are not

521
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: part openly part of extremist group well not openly part

522
00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 1: of like known militant extremists, right, but um, a lot

523
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: of them are hold office. You know, there is Derek

524
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:24,240
Speaker 1: Evans was in West Virginia. You've got um John Jacob

525
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,560
Speaker 1: in Indiana, like the whole Oklahoma contingent, Like abolish Human

526
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 1: Abortion has really just become a lobbying group that's trying

527
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 1: to get people in office wherever they can. There's I mean,

528
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: they've gotten really strategic about getting people into smaller um

529
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: legislative roles so that they have more power to push

530
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:50,280
Speaker 1: things and and so that they look more respectable. Yeah.

531
00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 1: And it's that leads kind of to another point, which

532
00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: is that when you get right down to it, once

533
00:31:56,200 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: the ruling comes through finally as it looks like it will,

534
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 1: the vast majority of violence that's going to be done

535
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 1: to abortion providers and too people seeking abortions into people

536
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 1: supporting them is going to be done by police, like

537
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: that's the that's the eventual end game here. Yeah, And

538
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,360
Speaker 1: that's that's the thing I'm the most afraid of, right

539
00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: because it's so much easier to turn somebody in than

540
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:21,840
Speaker 1: it is to actually attack a person physically or a

541
00:32:21,840 --> 00:32:24,400
Speaker 1: building even And so that's what it's going to be.

542
00:32:24,480 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: It's going to be people calling in their neighbors, calling

543
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:34,200
Speaker 1: in something from the hospital, turning in their grandkids. You know, well,

544
00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 1: is there anything right now that's making you optimistic? Cat,

545
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,440
Speaker 1: Not to put you on the spot, No, No, it's okay.

546
00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 1: I thought about that a lot. I mean, honestly, the

547
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 1: people working in this are so dedicated to helping people

548
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,200
Speaker 1: that that always gives me hope. And I genuinely feel

549
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 1: like there's enough of us that have plans, you know,

550
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: even if even if not ever bodies on board with

551
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: the same stuff, there are enough people really doing the

552
00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: hard work and being pragmatic about what's happening and not

553
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,600
Speaker 1: just cowing under the pressure of it, that are energized

554
00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:14,840
Speaker 1: by helping people that I think there will always be

555
00:33:14,920 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: people helping. They might not always be visible, but they're there,

556
00:33:19,160 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 1: and it's just going to be harder to find them.

557
00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, um, well, thank you so much. Um, do

558
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 1: you have anything else you'd like to plug before we

559
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 1: kind of roll out here? Any place people could and

560
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: donations are volunteer if they're into that. Oh, I mean,

561
00:33:35,360 --> 00:33:38,880
Speaker 1: you can always donate to Abortion Access Front where a

562
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: front dot org and um, there's a volunteer form there.

563
00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:46,960
Speaker 1: But also if you want to participate in our event

564
00:33:47,080 --> 00:33:50,280
Speaker 1: on July sevent you can go to Operations Save Abortion

565
00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: dot com. Uh, and there's a registration form there to

566
00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 1: get involved in the event. Awesome. Um, well, thank you

567
00:33:58,800 --> 00:34:01,280
Speaker 1: so much, Kat Green. You are amazing and what you

568
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 1: do is incredibly important. Um. And to everybody else, um,

569
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:11,279
Speaker 1: go find some way to help or you know, at

570
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:16,080
Speaker 1: least uh, it's easy to pee in a water balloon

571
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 1: and sorry, okay, well let's that It could happen here

572
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,640
Speaker 1: as a production of cool Zone Media. Well more podcasts

573
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:30,239
Speaker 1: from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media

574
00:34:30,320 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: dot com or check us out on the I Heart

575
00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 1: radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

576
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:37,920
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated

577
00:34:37,960 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks

578
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:42,000
Speaker 1: for listening,