Speaker 1: The president's greatest responsibility is to protect all our people
Speaker 1: from enemies foreign and domestic. Here at home, the worst
Speaker 1: enemy we face is economic the creeping erosion of the
Speaker 1: American way of life and the American dream that has
Speaker 1: resulted in today's tragedy of economic stagnation and unemployment.
Speaker 2: One of the great debates of our time is about
Speaker 2: how much of your money should be spent by the
Speaker 2: state and how much you should keep to spend on
Speaker 2: your family. Let us never forget this fundamental truth. The
Speaker 2: state has no source of money other than the money
Speaker 2: people earned themselves.
Speaker 3: Little trip back in time there to the unmistakable voices
Speaker 3: of Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher, and whether you agreed
Speaker 3: or disagreed with them, there is no doubt the ideas
Speaker 3: of the conservative movements they led in the US and
Speaker 3: UK dominated the policy agenda for years on foreign policy
Speaker 3: and the role of government in people's lives. Here we
Speaker 3: are decades later, and conservatives on both sides of the
Speaker 3: Atlantic still echo Reagan and Thatcher on some things, including
Speaker 3: low taxes. But today's loudest conservative voices, like Donald Trump
Speaker 3: and Boris Johnson, have far different priorities and a much
Speaker 3: different sound. On day one, we will begin working.
Speaker 1: On an impenetrable, physical, tall, powerful, beautiful southern border wall.
Speaker 4: And we're gonna get home with all one nation program,
Speaker 4: aren't we. That's what we can do. That's what we
Speaker 4: can do if we get Brexit dug. But we can
Speaker 4: only do it if we get Brexit dug. That is
Speaker 4: what one Nation Conservatives do. That is our vision for
Speaker 4: the country to the.
Speaker 3: Niceteen Bloomberg Opinions. Global business columnist Adrian Wooldridge argues in
Speaker 3: a new column that conservatives hard turn toward populism and
Speaker 3: the politics of anger have left Tories in the UK
Speaker 3: and Republicans in the US far from the ideas that
Speaker 3: shaped the Anglo American conservative movement, and not necessarily for
Speaker 3: the better.
Speaker 5: The old conservatism has been replaced by a new and
Speaker 5: much more unstable sort of conservatism that is all to
Speaker 5: do with the nation state, national conservativism, expanding the role
Speaker 5: of the state, tapping into cultural resentments.
Speaker 3: And he asks, can conservatism find itself.
Speaker 5: Again, basically to have a conservative party or a Republican
Speaker 5: party that goes back to some of the older traditions,
Speaker 5: such as respect for tradition, respect for institutions, respect for
Speaker 5: decency and behavior.
Speaker 3: I'm WESTKESOVA today on the big take Adrian Woodridge and
Speaker 3: where Conservatives go from here. Adrian, it's nice to see you,
Speaker 3: very nice to be here. And I think it's fitting
Speaker 3: that I'm sitting here in Washington, DC and you're in
Speaker 3: London because we are talking about conservatives in the UK
Speaker 3: and in the US.
Speaker 5: Yes, a transatlantic meeting to discuss a transatlantic movement.
Speaker 3: What made you want to write about this? When I
Speaker 3: think about summer reading, it's not really going back into
Speaker 3: the history of conservatism.
Speaker 5: I wrote this because I've been thinking for a long
Speaker 5: time about how conservatism in both the United States and
Speaker 5: in Britain is in the crisis. Then we saw all
Speaker 5: these interesting data points. Parliaments held Boris Johnson in contempt
Speaker 5: of Parliament for lying to Parliament over various parties that
Speaker 5: he had during lockdown.
Speaker 2: The Eyes to the Right three hundred and fifty four,
Speaker 2: the Nose to the left seventh.
Speaker 5: Then we have Trump being put on trial for purloining
Speaker 5: various Topsy.
Speaker 6: Document confirmed this hour that Donald Trump and his lawyers
Speaker 6: have just been informed about twenty minutes ago that the
Speaker 6: former president needs to be at a federal court in
Speaker 6: Miami on Tuesday at three pm to be processed on
Speaker 6: federal charges.
Speaker 3: This, of course would be.
Speaker 5: So all of these these sort of crises going on, well,
Speaker 5: this isn't just a series of arbitrary events. It's something
Speaker 5: that points to bigger patterns of the breakdown of the
Speaker 5: conservative movement. So I decided to say what is going
Speaker 5: on here? And it struck me also that conservatism has
Speaker 5: changed in a very radical and fundamental way. That back
Speaker 5: in the nineteen eighties, when Conservatism was sort of triumphant
Speaker 5: around the world under Reagan and Thatcher, consertism stood for
Speaker 5: a series of things such as small government.
Speaker 1: In this present crisis, government is not the solution to
Speaker 1: our problem.
Speaker 7: Government is the problem.
Speaker 5: Such as letting business do its own thing, such as
Speaker 5: standing up to global communism.
Speaker 8: As the modeled arguments of those who've been induced to
Speaker 8: believe that Russia's intentions are benign and that ours are suspect.
Speaker 8: All who would have us simply give up our defenses
Speaker 8: and the hope that where we led, others would follow.
Speaker 5: These were things that made sense within the conservative tradition,
Speaker 5: but were also very well related to the problems that
Speaker 5: we're facing. The world. Now conservatism has almost stood on
Speaker 5: its head. We have doubts about smaller government, we have
Speaker 5: certainly big doubts about going abroad to thi terrorism, and
Speaker 5: a sense that the Conservative Party had become in many
Speaker 5: ways anti business parties. So the problems with Conservatism are
Speaker 5: not just problems to do with a few individuals, and
Speaker 5: they're not just problems entirely just to do with populism,
Speaker 5: the sort of Trump and Boris Johnson sort of populism.
Speaker 5: They're to do with something more fundamental, something to do
Speaker 5: with a change in nature of conservatism that the old conservatism,
Speaker 5: conservatism is of small governments, standing up to communism, letting
Speaker 5: business have its head, has been replaced by a new
Speaker 5: and much more unstable sort of conservatism. There's all to
Speaker 5: do with the nation state, national conservativism, expanding the role
Speaker 5: of the state, tapping into cultural resentments. So I wanted
Speaker 5: to try and explain.
Speaker 3: That, Adrian. It's interesting then you mentioned Ronald Reagan and
Speaker 3: Margaret Thatcher, because during the eighties when they were both
Speaker 3: in power, it seemed like a lot of the intellectual
Speaker 3: energy was on the right, where the right was coming
Speaker 3: up with the big ideas.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I mean, the thing about Ronald Reagan and missus
Speaker 5: Thatcher is that they were absolutely in tune with the
Speaker 5: mood of the times, which was that the state was
Speaker 5: too big, we needed to cut it back, that business
Speaker 5: was too confined, we needed to give it more freedom,
Speaker 5: and that the big issue was how to have a
Speaker 5: muscular response to the Soviet Union and as it was then,
Speaker 5: Soviet expansionism. So it was in tune with the times.
Speaker 5: But all of these things, shrinking the state, having a
Speaker 5: muscular defense, being pro business were in tune with very deep,
Speaker 5: longstanding conservative values. So conservatism seemed to be the answer
Speaker 5: to the problems. And there was an enormous ferment of ideas,
Speaker 5: very many debates, as you say, but all of the
Speaker 5: intellectual energy of that period was on the right, and
Speaker 5: the left was simply responding to the right's ideas. After there,
Speaker 5: when Tony Blair comes along in Britain and Bill Clinton
Speaker 5: comes along in the United States, they basically adapt and
Speaker 5: adopt the framework that Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan laid down.
Speaker 5: They make it a bit more human, smiley faced than
Speaker 5: the rest of it, but they don't really interfere with
Speaker 5: the fundamental principles that have been laid down. It's astonishing
Speaker 5: to think back on the nineteen nineties as how much
Speaker 5: the Republicans hated Bill Clinton, because actually he was really
Speaker 5: a Republican in all sorts of ways. He was certainly
Speaker 5: more conservative than Dwight Eisenhower.
Speaker 1: Today we have an historic opportunity to make welfare what
Speaker 1: it was meant to be, a second chance, not a
Speaker 1: way of life.
Speaker 5: He believed in cutting the size of the state. The
Speaker 5: age of big government is over. He believed in welfare reform,
Speaker 5: education reform, taking on various sorts of vested interests within
Speaker 5: the left. But he also believed in freeing up the markets,
Speaker 5: particularly freeing up the financial markets for capital for financial
Speaker 5: and business interests. So he was very conservative Fick, and
Speaker 5: the same with Tony Blair.
Speaker 7: We believe in our relationship with business and industry there
Speaker 7: is a third way, a new way between some command economy,
Speaker 7: state control of industry, and the politics of laisse fair.
Speaker 7: This third way seeks a partnership between government and business,
Speaker 7: but this time limited to certain key specific objectives whose
Speaker 7: aim is not to undermine the market, but to enhance
Speaker 7: the dynamism of the market.
Speaker 5: One of the quotations that's associated with Tony ba from
Speaker 5: Peter Mandelsson is that I'm intensely relaxed about people getting
Speaker 5: filthy rich. You know, this was a very different age
Speaker 5: from the one we're living through at the moment, and
Speaker 5: hence the problems that this synthesis, this Blair Clinton Reagan
Speaker 5: Thatcher synthesis created. Then those ideas begin to fall apart
Speaker 5: or begin to be tested in all sorts of interesting ways.
Speaker 5: And it's really the falling apart of the Thatcher Reagan
Speaker 5: consensus or synthesis that prepares the way for populism.
Speaker 3: And so you write about this pivot, this sort of
Speaker 3: turn where even though the ideas and the right had
Speaker 3: seemingly won, it began to unravel.
Speaker 5: Nonetheless, Yep, it collided with reality and it completely unraveled.
Speaker 5: It unraveled first in terms of practical experience, that people
Speaker 5: began to get angry that their incomes were stagnating, and
Speaker 5: they began to be angry that the endless wars were
Speaker 5: not producing the promise benefits whilst imposing costs on poorer people.
Speaker 5: And they got angry that the rich were getting richer.
Speaker 5: And that particularly happens with the financial crisis when you
Speaker 5: have a huge systemic crisis in the financial system, the
Speaker 5: costs of which are borne by mortgage holders and certainly
Speaker 5: not by the bankers who caused the problem in the
Speaker 5: first place. So you then get an upsurge. An upsurge
Speaker 5: first of all in popular opinion that people began to
Speaker 5: get angry with what's going on. So you have the
Speaker 5: arrival of populace. Populace saying that this system, this synthesis,
Speaker 5: must be torn apart.
Speaker 3: And at the heart of this seems to be the
Speaker 3: idea of grievance that someone is to blame for the
Speaker 3: ills in your life and they need to be held
Speaker 3: to account. In the US, with the rise of Donald
Speaker 3: Trump and in the UK with the sentiment over Brexit,
Speaker 3: there seemed to be a very big focus on immigrants
Speaker 3: who were coming to take your job, as opposed to
Speaker 3: elites who were rigging the system.
Speaker 5: I think there's a bit of both, actually, but the
Speaker 5: immigrants are certainly very very important. The idea is that
Speaker 5: there's a big influx of people, that those people will
Speaker 5: either take your jobs or reduce the price of labor,
Speaker 5: reduce your wages. In the United States, you have a
Speaker 5: surge of immigration from South of the border, although that
Speaker 5: immigration has been going on obviously for a long time
Speaker 5: and in large numbers in Britain. Because of the accession
Speaker 5: of countries such as Poland into the European Union and
Speaker 5: the system of free movement that the European Union allows,
Speaker 5: you get a big surge of mainly Polish immigrants into
Speaker 5: the economy. On the subject of who their grievance is
Speaker 5: directed against, there's certainly grievance against the immigrants, but there's
Speaker 5: the question of who is responsible for this, particularly in Britain,
Speaker 5: and the people who held responsible are the the faceless
Speaker 5: elites who've allowed this big immigration to take place, who
Speaker 5: have taken control of our borders away from us and
Speaker 5: given it to the European Union. So the elites are
Speaker 5: being held responsible and accountable for a lot of decisions
Speaker 5: that they've made in the past. So it's grievance, its anger,
Speaker 5: it's populism, but the elites are certainly in the frame.
Speaker 3: And so when these populace took charge in the UK
Speaker 3: and in the US, what's also really interesting is they
Speaker 3: didn't directly attack a lot of the problems that people
Speaker 3: said they wanted, for instance, with tax cuts. Tax cuts
Speaker 3: went to the top as opposed to going to the bottom.
Speaker 3: It perpetuated the Reagan Thatcher idea that cutting taxes at
Speaker 3: the top will trickle down to the rest of us.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, and that's partly because these conservatives are a coalition
Speaker 5: of different interests as the populaces who come along and
Speaker 5: under the new people, but there's also the old elites
Speaker 5: or the old wings of those parties who want to
Speaker 5: continue with the Reagan Thatcher policies that you have before.
Speaker 5: So you have a weird coalition on the one hand
Speaker 5: where populists will help the poor. On the other hand,
Speaker 5: you know, we're the party of business and will help business.
Speaker 5: And this is particularly extraordinary in the case of Trump,
Speaker 5: because Trump talks about building the wall. No wall was built.
Speaker 5: He hadn't talked about lowering taxes for the rich, but
Speaker 5: he certainly did that. And in Britain you have the
Speaker 5: same thing, on the one hand, taking back control on
Speaker 5: behalf of poorer people, on the other hand continuing with
Speaker 5: tax cutting policies. So particularly with Boris Johnson, Boris Johnson
Speaker 5: is a very interesting person here because Boris Johnson declares
Speaker 5: that his policy is to have his cake and eat it,
Speaker 5: and so what he does is to increase public spending
Speaker 5: in order to deliver all the benefits that he's claimed
Speaker 5: that Brexit will deliver for the poor or the less
Speaker 5: well off. But he also continues with a tax cutting
Speaker 5: and what that does, of course is push up borrowing
Speaker 5: and enormously annoy his chancellor, who lives next door in Britain,
Speaker 5: and creates a lot of tension between the then Chancellor
Speaker 5: Rishi Sunak and Boris Johnson. As one of the subtexts
Speaker 5: this constant fight between the chancellor who doesn't believe that
Speaker 5: there's a magic money train you can cut taxes or
Speaker 5: keep taxes low and increase public spending, ad infinitum.
Speaker 3: After the break, populous take aim at what Adrian calls
Speaker 3: the pointy headed elites. I always thought that Donald Trump
Speaker 3: had won great luxury as a president, which was that
Speaker 3: his policies, especially having to do with the economy and
Speaker 3: tax cuts, didn't necessarily help the people who voted for
Speaker 3: him the most, and yet they really loved him because
Speaker 3: he addressed other issues.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, I think that the politics is increasingly not just
Speaker 5: about material things. It's increasingly about sort of your sense
Speaker 5: of yourself. It's about your sense of dignity. It's about
Speaker 5: the sense that you're being listened to, and it's about
Speaker 5: the sense that you're not being looked down upon. So
Speaker 5: in Britain with Brexit, a lot of what drove it
Speaker 5: was the idea that pointy headed elites looked down on you.
Speaker 5: And the more that those pointy headed elites said that
Speaker 5: Brexit would be an economic disaster, which it has been,
Speaker 5: the more people said, well, you're saying that because you
Speaker 5: look down on us, and so they continue to rally
Speaker 5: behind Brexit. Well, Trump had that in spades because he
Speaker 5: didn't really, as we've said, deliver on the wall and
Speaker 5: the rest of it. He did deliver on tax cuts,
Speaker 5: but he acted like this blue collar billionaire, as he said,
Speaker 5: you know, he had all these blue collar tastes. He
Speaker 5: acted in this sort of offensive rather matcho way, and
Speaker 5: people thought that he was just like an ordinary bloke.
Speaker 5: And again the more that the elites were defended by
Speaker 5: this pattern of behavior, the more his troops rallied behind him. Now,
Speaker 5: this has left the Republican Party with a very concern problem, essentially,
Speaker 5: because your system is more responsive to the grassroots than
Speaker 5: our system. Boris Johnson was eventually got rid of primarily
Speaker 5: by his MPs.
Speaker 4: It moves so how sad I am to be giving
Speaker 4: up the best job in the world.
Speaker 5: Who wouldn't tolerate his behavior, his lying, his lad mouth
Speaker 5: bluster anymore. So they had the mechanism to get rid
Speaker 5: of him, because members of parliament can vote out their leader.
Speaker 5: The leader of the party serves at the pleasure of
Speaker 5: members of parliament. In the United States, the presidential system,
Speaker 5: you can't do that. So many many people, money people,
Speaker 5: senior Republicans, congressional people would like, would desperately like to
Speaker 5: get rid of Trump, but as long as he's popular
Speaker 5: with the party base, with the primary voters, they can't
Speaker 5: do that.
Speaker 3: You mentioned something important, which is people didn't like the
Speaker 3: idea that they were being looked down upon, and you
Speaker 3: write that it also as an extension of that has
Speaker 3: been about people who used to be in charge. They
Speaker 3: were the ones who were dominant in society. They were
Speaker 3: on tapp. No longer feel that way that others are
Speaker 3: coming in to take their place.
Speaker 5: Yes, so it's a very complicated story for conservatives because
Speaker 5: many people at the heart of the conservative establishment and
Speaker 5: of the Republicans establishments in the United States are being
Speaker 5: pushed aside by powerful global forces. Used to have sort
Speaker 5: of local business people, chamber of commerce, people as very
Speaker 5: powerful people within the Conservative Party or the Republican Party.
Speaker 5: People who are sort of who run a local factory,
Speaker 5: who run a local law firm, who are the sort
Speaker 5: of the pillars of the local community. They felt that
Speaker 5: they were in charge of their communities, and they also
Speaker 5: felt that they were well represented by their party. Now
Speaker 5: they're being pushed aside by a complex set of people.
Speaker 5: That's partly big business, which is replacing small business. So
Speaker 5: they've got giant global law firms replacing local law firms.
Speaker 5: You've got great giant global corporations replacing local corporations. People
Speaker 5: such as the economist Thomas Piketty calls the Brahman elite.
Speaker 5: These are the people who go to the Ivy League universities,
Speaker 5: go to Oxford and Cambridge, work in the professions. Those
Speaker 5: people are increasingly turning against the Republican Party or the
Speaker 5: Conservative Party, and so there's a sense that people who
Speaker 5: used to run the show are being displaced. So on
Speaker 5: the one hand, I said that populism earlier was powered
Speaker 5: by a lot of people who let felt left behind,
Speaker 5: particularly working class people. But there's also a sense of
Speaker 5: these middle class people stallworts of old fashioned conservatives and
Speaker 5: I'm sure supporters of Ronald Reagan and missus Thatcher who
Speaker 5: feel that they're no longer in charge of their countries.
Speaker 3: More than five hundred bills restricting the rights of LGBTQ
Speaker 3: plus people have been introduced across the country this year.
Speaker 3: Seventy seven of those bills. We also see in the
Speaker 3: US a very hard turn against LGBTQ people, big movement
Speaker 3: against abortions, these culture war issues that have taken the
Speaker 3: place of economic issues and other sort of policies when
Speaker 3: it comes to animating voters.
Speaker 5: Absolutely, if you look at Thatcher and Reagan, Thatcher really
Speaker 5: didn't care about these sort of social issues. Shoes all
Speaker 5: about economics, and she was actually extremely liberal with her
Speaker 5: cabinet ministers, many of whom had all sorts of affairs
Speaker 5: and love children and issues such as that. And Ronald Reagan,
Speaker 5: although he claimed because the evangelical Christian right is very
Speaker 5: important for the Conservative coalition, although he claimed to be
Speaker 5: very concerned about abortion, he didn't really do anything about it.
Speaker 5: He focused again on economic issues. Now, the current wave
Speaker 5: of Republicans and conservatives is very different from that. They
Speaker 5: put culture issues right at the center of what's going on,
Speaker 5: and they put the selection of Supreme Court judges who
Speaker 5: sit in judgment about a lot of these things really
Speaker 5: high up in the list of priorities. So Trump, we
Speaker 5: said that he didn't do that much for his voters. Well,
Speaker 5: he didn't do that much for his voters economically, but
Speaker 5: on the culture issue he did do a lot.
Speaker 3: We're talking about all of this, of course in the
Speaker 3: context of the US in the UK, but we're seeing
Speaker 3: this in many other places too. We've of course seen
Speaker 3: it in Hungary, in Poland, in Greece very recently and
Speaker 3: waiting in the wings in France, in Germany and in
Speaker 3: other places. And so this sentiment, this populist right wing
Speaker 3: sentiment is present really across Europe now.
Speaker 5: Oh absolutely. And again it has the same things. It
Speaker 5: has a very strong cultural element that this emphasis on
Speaker 5: minority rights has gone too far. It has a very
Speaker 5: big anti business sentiment that the business serves a tiny elite,
Speaker 5: not masses, and a very strong, of course, nationalist element.
Speaker 5: It's nationalist conservatism rather than globalist conservatism. You can see Italy,
Speaker 5: I think has just shifted yet more to the right.
Speaker 9: Rome Italy about to see the country's most right wing
Speaker 9: government since World War Two, Georgia Maloney. She is the
Speaker 9: leader of the Brothers of Italy party and.
Speaker 5: She is the biggest of the most interesting of these
Speaker 5: shifts is France, where the National Front has been slowly, slowly,
Speaker 5: slowly increasing its vote with every election.
Speaker 3: President Emmanuel Macarol has warned nothing is impossible, as Poles
Speaker 3: suggests that his far right rival Marine La Penn is
Speaker 3: closer than ever before to winning the presidency.
Speaker 5: And it would not surprise me if in the lex
Speaker 5: presidential election, Marine Lea Penn finally gets what she's been
Speaker 5: looking for for decades and wins it. And you know,
Speaker 5: we've recently seen big, big riots in France. But again
Speaker 5: it's a sense that the country is out of control.
Speaker 5: Forces of globalism, of disorder, of immigration, violence are taking
Speaker 5: over and we need to take back control by having
Speaker 5: a strong man to do it.
Speaker 3: When we come back, a different way forward for the
Speaker 3: conservative movement, Adrian, after defining the nature of this new
Speaker 3: very muscular populism, you then go on to write that
Speaker 3: it hasn't really been very good for conservatism. Why do
Speaker 3: you say that.
Speaker 5: I say this partly because populism, muscular populism, is not
Speaker 5: my personal politics, but also because it's not solving the
Speaker 5: problems that it cames to address. So Brexit claimed to
Speaker 5: take back control. Not only is it not taken back control.
Speaker 5: You know, we see the problem with illegal refugees continuing,
Speaker 5: it's a global problem. But we also see the British
Speaker 5: economy suffering very significantly from Brexit, and we also see
Speaker 5: small businesses, which were really at the forefront of anxieties
Speaker 5: about the old economy, actually suffering more than big businesses.
Speaker 5: Big businesses have got the muscle to take on a
Speaker 5: more complicated trading system. Smaller businesses are drowning under paperwork
Speaker 5: that's been created by moving out of the ear. We've seen,
Speaker 5: of course, Trump not addressing the economic problems of poorer people,
Speaker 5: and I think that the solution is not to ignore
Speaker 5: the noises the complaints, but to have much more tailored
Speaker 5: economic policies which address the economic plight of poorer people,
Speaker 5: to take their concerns about their dignity and status much
Speaker 5: more seriously than we have. But also basically to have
Speaker 5: a conservative party or a Republican party that goes back
Speaker 5: to some of the older traditions, such as respect for tradition,
Speaker 5: respect for institutions, respect for decency in behavior, and respect
Speaker 5: for the sort of the given take, which is the
Speaker 5: essence of a liberal society. So not quite going back
Speaker 5: to Reagan and Thatcher, but going back to the twin
Speaker 5: questions of how do we get the economy working for
Speaker 5: the majority of people rather than through a minoritive, but
Speaker 5: also how do we restore the checks and balances, the dignities,
Speaker 5: the decent behavior that ought to be at the hearts
Speaker 5: of a successful liberal political regime.
Speaker 3: Are conservative politicians going to want to return to an
Speaker 3: idea where they're debating ideas, where there is much more
Speaker 3: civil discourse. It seems like, if anything, we're moving very
Speaker 3: quickly in the opposite direction.
Speaker 5: I think there's a big difference between the United States
Speaker 5: and Britain at the moment. In Britain you have very sensible,
Speaker 5: centrist conservative prime minister in the form of Rishi Sunac,
Speaker 5: who has a very different style, a very different temperament,
Speaker 5: and a very different set of policies from Boris Johnson.
Speaker 5: And Boris Johnson's nationalist, populist conservativism is at the moment
Speaker 5: fairly solidly defeated. Whether it comes back or not is
Speaker 5: a very interesting interesting question. I suspect that if the
Speaker 5: Tory Party loses the next election, well it loses not terribly,
Speaker 5: then it remains a centrist sort of party and it
Speaker 5: will look to put together a sort of centrist coalition.
Speaker 5: If it loses badly, I it's humiliated in the polls,
Speaker 5: then you will have a further shift to the populace right.
Speaker 5: They say Boris should come back, or somebody swell a Bravaman,
Speaker 5: his current Home Secretary and very right wing should come
Speaker 5: back in that way. In the United States, as far
Speaker 5: as I can see, at the moment, you know Trump
Speaker 5: is leading the pack, although his legal problems may make
Speaker 5: that difficult. But then again, as far as I can see,
Speaker 5: the number two person is Desantas, who is very much
Speaker 5: in the same sort of sort of camp, fighting for
Speaker 5: the same sort of voters. And you do have structurally,
Speaker 5: because of the primary system, a system which gives an
Speaker 5: enormous amount of power to the most engaged or the
Speaker 5: most right wing commentators. So I see an effluorescence of
Speaker 5: idea is, many of which I disagree with. I see
Speaker 5: an efflorescence of populist sentiments in the United States or
Speaker 5: continuing populist anger in the United States, and a more
Speaker 5: complicated position in Britain which could pull British conservatism away
Speaker 5: from the very Trumpian American conservatism.
Speaker 3: Adrian, thanks so much for coming on the show.
Speaker 5: Thank you very much.
Speaker 3: Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take.
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Speaker 3: is our engineer. Our original music was composed by Leo Sidrin.
Speaker 3: I'm west Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with another Big Take.
Speaker 6: H