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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discuss the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And Matt Gates said he will attempt

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Speaker 1: to oust Kevin McCarthy from the speakership. This week, we

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Speaker 1: have an amazing show for you today, The States Projects

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Speaker 1: Daniel Squadron talks to us about how his organization helps Democrats.

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Speaker 1: We'll talk to NPR Steve Inskeep. He'll tell us about

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Speaker 1: his new book Different. We must how Lincoln succeeded in

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Speaker 1: a divided America.

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Speaker 2: But first we have the.

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Speaker 1: Author of Win Every Argument. MSNBC's Madi Hassan. Welcome back

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Speaker 1: to Fast Politics, Maddie.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 1: Momie, I hope you were watching those quote unquote impeachment

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Speaker 1: hearings with the same sort of unbelievable shodenfreude that I

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Speaker 1: was discussed.

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Speaker 3: It was hilarious. I have to say.

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Speaker 4: It was so much worse for the Republicans that I

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Speaker 4: thought it would be. I think we all thought it

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Speaker 4: would be bad for the Republicans. Anyone who's been following

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Speaker 4: the Hunter hundred stuff for years, there's.

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Speaker 3: No there there.

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Speaker 4: I thought they would at least have some kind of

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Speaker 4: you know, as Neil Cavuto FOP Post put it yesterday,

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Speaker 4: we thought there would be smoke and there might be

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Speaker 4: some fire to go with the smoke, but there was

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Speaker 4: just more smoke on top of smoke.

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Speaker 3: They were so unprepared. And I keep saying that, I've

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Speaker 3: been saying this for years.

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Speaker 4: The only reason we are not in a fully complete

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Speaker 4: fascist state in America right now is because, thankfully, the

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Speaker 4: fascist on offerers so incompetent. And that applies to Donald Trump,

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Speaker 4: that applies to all of these House Republican freaks.

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Speaker 3: They're just so bad at their jobs.

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Speaker 4: We are lucky that we are not up against smart

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Speaker 4: and savvy fascists, and there are smart and savy Faschis

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Speaker 4: out there, but the ones in charge of the.

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Speaker 3: GOP right now are just so incompetent.

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Speaker 4: Whether it's Kevin McCarthy, whether it's Jim Jordan, whether it's

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Speaker 4: James Comer, Byron Donald's rising star, you know, admitting to

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Speaker 4: evidence a text it Alexandria Costick pares a part. It's

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Speaker 4: just a completely out of context doctor Meanich. And this

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Speaker 4: is what they did, and it was so bad that

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Speaker 4: their own aids are going around briefing CNN of all

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Speaker 4: people saying, oh my god, this was a disaster.

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Speaker 3: This was a catastrophe.

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Speaker 4: You have Steve Bannon in real time being quoted by

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Speaker 4: Democrats in the inquiry, while he says on his show

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Speaker 4: in real time, why do we have these witnesses? Why

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Speaker 4: were they not on the maybe list? Why is it

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Speaker 4: so going so badly? So, yeah, it was a disaster.

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Speaker 4: On one hand, it was fun to watch. On the

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Speaker 4: other hand, let's remind ourselves by them doing this, not

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Speaker 4: only are they degrading Congress, degrading impeachment, but of course

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Speaker 4: there's a government shutdown coming as well, so it's an insult.

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Speaker 4: All these people are going to lose paychecks on Monday morning.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I did think that was incredible stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's really important to note that there

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Speaker 1: really is like their job is actually to govern, and

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Speaker 1: you know, it was fun to watch, but ultimately the

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Speaker 1: American people suffer.

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Speaker 3: They've made it clear that isn't their job. I mean,

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Speaker 3: they're not hiding it. Their job is not to govern.

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Speaker 3: Their job is to own the Libs. Their job is

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Speaker 3: to perform. Their job is to be on Fox.

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Speaker 4: I think Maxwell Frost had a great line about Jonathan Turny,

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Speaker 4: thank you for stopping by here on your way to

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Speaker 4: your neck Fox here.

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Speaker 3: That sums them up perfectly.

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Speaker 4: And John Bayner said this years ago in his memoir

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Speaker 4: that I was dealing with a crazy right wing caucus.

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Speaker 4: He said, where Michelle Backman If I turned her down?

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Speaker 4: She said, when I'm going on Hannity tonight to criticize

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Speaker 4: you like that has been the plan for years. That

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Speaker 4: is what they do. I mean, there's a great supercut.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure you spend as much time as I do,

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Speaker 4: on a healthy amount of time on Twitter as I do. Molly,

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Speaker 4: you've seen, I'm sure the supercut of Ted Cruz just

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Speaker 4: saying on my podcast, on my podcast, on my podcast,

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Speaker 4: on my podcast, he's a podcaster first, a senator from

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Speaker 4: the great state of Texas second.

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Speaker 3: And that is who these people are.

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Speaker 4: They're not interested in governing, to the point where New

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Speaker 4: Gingrich is telling the Washington Post today, I think this

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Speaker 4: is nuts. What are they doing a shutdown for? Even

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Speaker 4: New Gingrich, the master of nihilistic politics, have burn it

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Speaker 4: all down of confrontation. Even he doesn't understand what is

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Speaker 4: going on with the shutdown and ask for the impeachment inquiry. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: they're doing it for the sake of doing it. But

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Speaker 4: with Bill Clinton at least there was something there. With this,

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Speaker 4: there's literally nothing. They've got nothing on the Biden and

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Speaker 4: all that yesterday was was a great opportunity, as you

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Speaker 4: and I both pointed out in separate tweets, for House

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Speaker 4: Democrats to say, hey, look at our young and upcoming stars.

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Speaker 3: Especially with people of color.

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Speaker 4: Look at Maxwell Frost owning the Republicans. Look at Jasmine

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Speaker 4: Crockett in that amazing passionate viral moment Summer Lee obviously

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Speaker 4: AOSC who is known for years doing fantastic well. These

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Speaker 4: people were just knocking it out of the park one

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Speaker 4: after another, and it's just a reminder of how good

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Speaker 4: the quote unquote Democratic benches that were often told is

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Speaker 4: not deep, and how bad the Republican leadership.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was watching.

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Speaker 1: There were so many of these Republicans just like mediocre

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Speaker 1: white guys with red ties sitting there sort of looking embarrassed.

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Speaker 4: People you've never heard of. And they found me like

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Speaker 4: Oligo Glock. The other guy couldn't say olig That.

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Speaker 3: Was my favorite word.

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Speaker 4: There's no quality control on half of the American political spectrum.

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Speaker 1: Well, we have an education problem in this country, but

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Speaker 1: that is for another day. I just want to get

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Speaker 1: back to New Gingridge, Like New Gangridge was the architect

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Speaker 1: of all of these kind of like shutdowns for shutdowns

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Speaker 1: sake and the government to burn it down and this

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Speaker 1: sort of Marxist zeal.

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Speaker 2: But my question for you is this now here we are?

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Speaker 1: This shutdown even seems like as shutdowns go, it's basically

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Speaker 1: mad Gates thinking he's acting on the behest of Donald Trump,

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Speaker 1: which he probably is versus Kevin McCarthy.

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Speaker 2: There's not some other thing here that we're not seeing, right, No.

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Speaker 4: It is an intra republican squabble between Kevin McCarthy and maccate.

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Speaker 4: I think is post of Politico is some outlet to

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Speaker 4: thatcarmam which one has a great piece about how it's

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Speaker 4: so personal between them, and there's a really depressing graph

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Speaker 4: and the piece about how i ardly they both are

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Speaker 4: annoyed and they're jealous that Donald Trump likes one over

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Speaker 4: the other. They both think Trump likes the other one more.

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Speaker 4: Imagine bringing the country to a screeching halt because you

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Speaker 4: want Donald Trump to love you more than your colleague.

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Speaker 4: I mean it tells you everything about the Republican body.

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Speaker 4: And just to go about to New Gingridge, Like when

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Speaker 4: New gingridg as you say, the architect of burn it

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Speaker 4: down of government shutdowns is saying, what are we doing here?

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Speaker 4: This is nuts? It's like, I don't know. It's like

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Speaker 4: Jack the Rippa saying you're killing too many people?

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Speaker 3: Like what is going on here? What on earth are

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Speaker 3: we do?

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Speaker 4: Wherever the Republican Party reached And you know, Jamie Raskin

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Speaker 4: had a great lad in the impeachment inquiry accident, and

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Speaker 4: this is a Seinfeld impeachment, right, It's an impeachament about nothing,

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Speaker 4: and the same line as being applied to the shutdown.

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Speaker 4: It's a Seinfeld shutdown. It's about nothing. Whatever you think

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Speaker 4: about the old GOP shutdowns, which were also absurd, at

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Speaker 4: least they were about something. Right in twenty eighteen nineteen,

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Speaker 4: it was about funding the border wall. A decade ago,

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Speaker 4: it was about ACA, Obamacare, all of that nonsense that

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Speaker 4: they opposed. Now it's about literally, what are shutting the governor?

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Speaker 4: What's your demand? Didn't have one?

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Speaker 2: Right?

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Speaker 1: I kind of want to talk about Representative Tony Gonzales.

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Speaker 2: He is in Republican leadership.

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Speaker 1: But yesterday he was not focused on the government shut down,

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Speaker 1: nor was he focused on the quote unquote impeachment.

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Speaker 2: He was on a little trip with our are a

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Speaker 2: good friend.

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Speaker 4: He was with the owner of x dot com formerly

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Speaker 4: known as Twitter, who I don't understand. I know, I

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Speaker 4: sound silly, a knaghy, and this is a gender This

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Speaker 4: is not genuine question. What was Elon Musk doing at

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Speaker 4: the border? Like why he's not running for president? By

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Speaker 4: the way his stands may want him to be president,

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Speaker 4: He can never be president, thankfully.

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Speaker 2: Not born in this country.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the one blessing of our lives. And what is

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Speaker 3: he doing there?

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Speaker 4: Like is the CEO of BMW going to the border tomorrow.

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Speaker 4: I know we've become numb to this, Molly, but the

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Speaker 4: guy runs a car company and owned the social media

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Speaker 4: with it. What is he doing there? And least when

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Speaker 4: Mark Zuckerberg went on this tour of Americas because we

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Speaker 4: thought he might run for president in twenty twenty, thankfully

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Speaker 4: he did not. What I don't understand, no one even

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Speaker 4: we've reached this weird part of celebrity politics now where

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Speaker 4: no one even asks why is he at the border.

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Speaker 4: We're just expressed to think that's normal. He turns up

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Speaker 4: the border in a cowboy hat that apparently I'm no

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Speaker 4: expot on cobwoin. He was wearing it backwards. You know,

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Speaker 4: that's how it is to be the richest around in

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Speaker 4: the world. None of your sycophantic staff will tell you, boss,

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Speaker 4: you got the cap on the wrong way round, nor

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Speaker 4: will the.

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Speaker 3: Congressman who's hosting you, presumably news. It's so busy.

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Speaker 4: He turns up there and then he goes live on

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Speaker 4: ck the video and then stops working. There's reporting that

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Speaker 4: he blasted his staff and said make this work, which

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Speaker 4: is so ironic.

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Speaker 3: By the way.

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Speaker 4: On a side, I've be watching a lot of Elon

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Speaker 4: Musk recently for my sins because I did a long

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Speaker 4: He's a shameless plug for that Mary Hussen show. This

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Speaker 4: week we did a long, deep dive into hate on Twitter,

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Speaker 4: which must claims doesn't exist. You remember that time he

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Speaker 4: said to the BBC reporter, name me an example, and

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Speaker 4: the reporter foolishly can't do it. So we've gone through

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Speaker 4: two dozen examples of tweets that are up, including Musk's

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Speaker 4: own anti Semitic tweet. But anyways, we did that, so

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Speaker 4: we watched a lot of Musk footage. When you watch musks,

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Speaker 4: A lot of us don't watch Musk, right, we see

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Speaker 4: his tweet, actually watch him speak as he was yesterday.

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Speaker 4: My god, the man lacks charisma. My god, the man

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Speaker 4: struggles to deliver a sentence. My god, the man is

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Speaker 4: a bad speaker. He's just got nothing to say, which

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Speaker 4: is probably why he spends so much time on his keyboard.

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Speaker 4: So I just found that fascinating that, like, you know,

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Speaker 4: why are you there. You're not very good at what

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Speaker 4: you're doing. Your platfor is working on a day when

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Speaker 4: your CEO also had a meltdown.

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Speaker 3: The day after that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so that was interesting.

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Speaker 4: The whole thing is bizarre. And as AOC said, what's

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Speaker 4: the congressman doing there? Why is he not on the

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Speaker 4: Capitol Hill trying to protect his constituents from an unnecessary shutdown?

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Speaker 4: A shut down by the way, let's just put a

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Speaker 4: bow on all of this which they're causing.

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Speaker 3: They're causing.

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Speaker 5: It will cost the CBP millions dollars, As Mitchell McConnell

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Speaker 5: pointed out, their beloved border patrol and Border protection is

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Speaker 5: going to get cut in funding when the government shuts down.

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Speaker 3: How ironic.

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Speaker 2: But the thing that I.

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Speaker 1: Don't understand about it is it's true he owns a

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Speaker 1: car company, but he also owns a large percentage of

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Speaker 1: American satellites. So this is not like the CEO of

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Speaker 1: Overstock acting out right. This is a person for whom

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Speaker 1: his opinions, as we found out with the use or

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Speaker 1: abuse of starlink, right, has real consequences.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: He turned off starlink so that the Ukrainians couldn't attack

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Speaker 1: the Russians because he felt again and there are many,

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Speaker 1: many different reasons why that have been offered, but we

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Speaker 1: clearly are not getting this straight story here.

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Speaker 2: So I do think it's a national security risk, so.

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Speaker 3: I mean the nationally It's interesting.

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Speaker 4: Yesterday he tweeted out classic right wing bop talking point,

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Speaker 4: why do politicians on both sides care a hundred times

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Speaker 4: more about the border of Ukraine than our border? Which

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Speaker 4: he could have been lifted straight from a kind of

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Speaker 4: Marjorie Taylor Green Gostar press release. I had Joel Roth

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Speaker 4: on my show this week at former Twitter head of

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Speaker 4: Trust and Safety. You had to flee his home because

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Speaker 4: Musk Stands threatened his life and Musk suggested falsely he

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Speaker 4: was a groomer, a lovely guy, and Joel Roth made

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Speaker 4: the point that we should stop treating Musk's politics as

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Speaker 4: somehow marcurial.

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Speaker 3: Oh is he an independent? Is he? What is he anti?

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Speaker 4: He's just your Bob standard far right Republican who's spewing

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Speaker 4: Fox and bright Bart talking points. And that becomes very

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Speaker 4: clear with this border trip. And the best part of

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Speaker 4: this is and that not the best part. Actually the

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Speaker 4: worst part, most ironic part which really annoys me and

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Speaker 4: I hope annoys your listeners, which is that he goes

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Speaker 4: to the border, as you say, does this republican stunt

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Speaker 4: with a Republican congressman. He's busy running an anti Semitic

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Speaker 4: campaign against the ADL. And yet at the same time,

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Speaker 4: the Biden administration just gave him another contract this week

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Speaker 4: to space X. They just got another government contract. I

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Speaker 4: think we're seventy million dollars. And at the same time,

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Speaker 4: the Wall Street Journal does It op ed last week saying, hey,

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Speaker 4: why is the Biden administration targeting Musk with all these

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Speaker 4: investigations and lawsuits? He shares a great Yeah, they seem

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Speaker 4: to be targeting me. Yeah, they are targeting you with

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Speaker 4: taxpayers cash. Why Chuck tchumor just hosted Elon Musk. I'm

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Speaker 4: amazed that more Democrats don't ask Chuck Schumer, why are

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Speaker 4: you hosting Elon Musk? If classic Democratic Party you can

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Speaker 4: beat us, we'll give you the stick to beat us with.

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Speaker 4: We'll still be nice to you and host you and

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Speaker 4: reach out across the aisle and be biparties. Can you imagine,

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Speaker 4: just imagine for a second, Molly Senator Mitch McConnell as

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Speaker 4: a majority leader, or Kevin McCarthy hosting George Soros for

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Speaker 4: an event a George Sorry, Jeffrey Katzenberg or some I

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Speaker 4: don't know, some Democratic billionaire who gives billions to.

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Speaker 3: The Bart and slags the Republicans.

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Speaker 4: It would never happen, and if it did happen, the

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Speaker 4: Republican base would go mad and McConnell slash McCarthy would

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Speaker 4: have to apologize and withdraw the invite. But not on

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Speaker 4: the Democratics that they just hosted Elon Muskus. If it's

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Speaker 4: totally normal to host Elon Musk. And one last point

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Speaker 4: on this the Ronan Pharaoh piece. I hope everyone has

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Speaker 4: read the Ronan Pharaoh piece, not just for what Musk says,

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Speaker 4: is quoted as saying in there, there's a Pentagon spokesman

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Speaker 4: in a Democratic administration who tells the New Yorker, I

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Speaker 4: don't know if I can talk to you unless mister

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Speaker 4: Musk is me permission.

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Speaker 3: Uh what governments? Most people have to get permission from

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Speaker 3: Elon Musk to talk to journals. Where are we living?

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Speaker 3: You know, oligloggold Lucky.

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry, Maddie, Yes exactly, and yes, and I think

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Speaker 1: that's a really good point.

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Speaker 2: And we don't see democrats do the number.

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Speaker 3: They're weak.

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Speaker 1: I would also add, there aren't all that many great alternatives.

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Speaker 1: So there is a question of like, why is government

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Speaker 1: putting its finger on the scale for someone who we know,

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Speaker 1: oh is clearly at best conservative, at worst severely you know,

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Speaker 1: mentally ill. I mean, what I think is really interesting.

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Speaker 1: And you see this with the biography that just came out,

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Speaker 1: these very severe right leaning perhaps autocratic and you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to say racist, but I want to say

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Speaker 1: something that's like a little less extreme than racism. But clearly,

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Speaker 1: I mean the whole idea South Africa is based on

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Speaker 1: this racism, right, So this is the family has you know,

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Speaker 1: these are like strong roots. I mean this is not

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Speaker 1: like the guy just came along to these values. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it seems very clear that Elon Musk has always believed

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Speaker 1: these things.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting topic.

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Speaker 4: Here is another topic that again reminds you of why

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Speaker 4: liberals always fight with one on behind their back.

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Speaker 3: I want to say a couple of things.

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Speaker 4: One is you mentioned like, you know, is he kind

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Speaker 4: of mentally he behaves in a deranged fashion. I just

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Speaker 4: want to clarify because I know this is not what

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Speaker 4: you were saying. Like, the guy has talked about being

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Speaker 4: on the spectrum, right, he's talked about right his issues.

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Speaker 4: That is not why he's a awful But let's just

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Speaker 4: be very very clear about that. You know, Walter Isaacson

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Speaker 4: and his biography talks about all of you know that

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Speaker 4: that aspect of his character, and does that make him

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Speaker 4: a joke? I personally get very frustrated when people are like, oh,

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Speaker 4: you know, it's like Republicans say, we have all these

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Speaker 4: shooters because of mental illness.

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Speaker 1: No.

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Speaker 4: First of all, don't blame violence on mentally ill people, right.

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Speaker 4: And number two, there are lots of people with mental

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Speaker 4: health issues who are not jerk. Right, the fundament he's

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Speaker 4: a jerk because he's a jerk. He behaves in a

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Speaker 4: deranged manner, because a lot of people on the right,

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Speaker 4: as we just discussed at the start as this show,

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Speaker 4: behave in a deranged man that seems to be more

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Speaker 4: related to the politics of these people than anything inside

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Speaker 4: of their head. As many people are pointed out, Musk

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Speaker 4: wasn't always like this, like he wasn't this deranged and

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Speaker 4: conspiratorial five ten years ago. It's the more he goes

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Speaker 4: down into the right wing fever swamps that he behaves

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Speaker 4: like every other right wing grifter. So I think it's

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Speaker 4: worth just establishing that. To come back to your point

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Speaker 4: about racism. You know, he's been tweeting recently about South

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Speaker 4: Africa and talking about you know, kill the Whitey song

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Speaker 4: and all the stuff that's going on in South Africa.

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Speaker 4: He's been endorsing some rather dangerous tropes about white genocide

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Speaker 4: in South Africa that Kaka Carlson and Donald Trump have

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Speaker 4: done in the past.

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Speaker 3: I would say this, look whether his.

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Speaker 4: Racism today, and as I say, I've done a long

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Speaker 4: deep dive about the racism on X and that racism

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Speaker 4: that comes from his own account. Some of the neon

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Speaker 4: artsis He replies, to and amplifies and some of the

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Speaker 4: horrible things he says. Is that a product of his

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Speaker 4: childhood upbringing? I genuinely don't know. But maybe it's funny

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Speaker 4: how we don't talk about it, because that's like it's

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Speaker 4: off limit to point out that the guy grew up

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Speaker 4: in white controls South Africa. Maybe maybe that's part of

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Speaker 4: his worldview. I'm not saying it is, but I would

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Speaker 4: argue that you know, as a Muslim, as somebod who

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Speaker 4: spent the last twenty years always having to justify my

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Speaker 4: views as what is not because of my religion or

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Speaker 4: you know, don't type cast me because I'm a Muslim,

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Speaker 4: or I don't have to apologize for what Muslim countries

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Speaker 4: are doing.

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Speaker 3: I'm not even from.

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Speaker 4: The Middle East, and I spent half my life having

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Speaker 4: to defend myself saying, well, no, I'm not speaking on

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Speaker 4: behalf of Iran. No, it's funny that the guy actually

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Speaker 4: from apartheid South Africa who now says racist things is

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Speaker 4: not asked.

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Speaker 3: At well, is this because of your upbringing?

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Speaker 1: And whose grandfather went to apartheid South Africa because he

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Speaker 1: liked apartheid so much? I mean, I get conservative saying

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Speaker 1: to me, well, your grandfather was a communist, so you

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Speaker 1: must be a communist, by the way, to which I say,

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Speaker 1: my grandfather did the right thing and refused to name

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Speaker 1: names for the house on an American activity when the

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Speaker 1: American government went rogue, and I hope that if I'm

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Speaker 1: in a position, I.

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Speaker 2: Would do the same.

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Speaker 1: And so I do think it is an incredible, incredible

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Speaker 1: sense in which like he should not be given the

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Speaker 1: benefit of the doubt. But I just want to move

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Speaker 1: on from Elon Musk for two seconds. So there's going

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Speaker 1: to be a government shutdown, Republicans's aren't worried. I was

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Speaker 1: on CNN with a Republican strategist just like an hour

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Speaker 1: or two ago, and he was saying, he was reading

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Speaker 1: out these statistics and he was like, well, twenty percent

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Speaker 1: of Americans will blame the Biden administration for this shutdown.

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Speaker 1: And I was like, Okay, I don't think that's true,

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Speaker 1: but sure.

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Speaker 4: What So three quick things in response to that number

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Speaker 4: One Republican strategist, isn't that Oxymoor On these days?

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Speaker 3: I would just say I love the title. Two.

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Speaker 4: The polling does suggest that if you put if you

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Speaker 4: look at the polls and you and I can talk

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Speaker 4: about Poles another day. The polling does suggest, if you

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Speaker 4: believe the polls, that a bigger PLIALI voters blame Democrats

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Speaker 4: in Congress plus the Biden illustration then blame the House gup.

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Speaker 4: And I think that's a fact. That's also part of

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Speaker 4: asking the question. You're dividing up Democrats into Biden and Democrats.

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Speaker 4: So some people pick Democrats, some people of it Biden.

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Speaker 4: But look, we don't know the exact numbers. Clearly there's

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Speaker 4: a big number of Americans who blame them. Now many

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Speaker 4: of them will be Republicans who just blame Democrats for everything.

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Speaker 4: This priorization in this country that underlies every poll. But

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Speaker 4: the third point I would make is this, it does

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Speaker 4: matter what democrats say.

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Speaker 3: I say this all the time.

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Speaker 4: Every time you leave a vacuum in politics, just as

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Speaker 4: in nature, you cannot leave a vacuum and aphause.

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Speaker 3: A vacu Right.

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Speaker 4: So when Democrats say, oh, well let's get out of

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Speaker 4: the way and let Republicans destroy each other, oh, I'm

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Speaker 4: not going to comment on this. I'm going to stay

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Speaker 4: above the fray. It doesn't work in twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 3: It just does.

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Speaker 4: And therefore, when you see polls suggesting, for example, give

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Speaker 4: me some random poll results from recently. Donald Trump delivered

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Speaker 4: on his agenda more than Biden has. That's what one

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Speaker 4: poll showed recently. Donald Trump's economy was better than Joe

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Speaker 4: Biden's economy. That's what many polls show. Joe Biden's mental

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Speaker 4: competence is less than Donald Trump's. There's a new poll

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Speaker 4: out this week from Morning Consult that shows Democrats are

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Speaker 4: seen as more ideologically extreme than There's one underlying theme

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Speaker 4: to all these poll results, apart from quote unquote polarization

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Speaker 4: in America, and that is that Democrats have allowed Republicans

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Speaker 4: to define the nature of the arguments that we have.

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Speaker 4: So Republicans go around screaming that Democrats are baby killers

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Speaker 4: and QAnon and groomers and evil and satan. I'm not

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Speaker 4: even joking. These actual words that Republican politicians have used

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Speaker 4: to describe Democrats. Marjorie Telly wins as Democrats have started

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Speaker 4: killing it right, this is what they say. Meanwhile, Democrats

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Speaker 4: run around like Joe Biden yesterday giving speeches saying John McCain,

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Speaker 4: what a wonderful guy. I miss John, and go around

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Speaker 4: saying let's be bipartisan and let's reach across the island.

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Speaker 4: Let's be grown up. That doesn't work. That's asymmetric warfare. Right,

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Speaker 4: one side is demonizing the other. The other side is

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Speaker 4: busy saying, hey, let's pass the bipart is an infrastructure act.

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Speaker 4: Where's the credit for that? You don't get any So

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Speaker 4: these polls all do make the same with the shutdown,

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Speaker 4: It's not surprising that Democrats are gonna get blamed, partly

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Speaker 4: because we're Polo, partly because Democrats have not gone on

439
00:19:14,200 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 4: the offensive in US. And this is why, you know,

440
00:19:16,560 --> 00:19:18,639
Speaker 4: it all comes down to messaging and media was It

441
00:19:18,640 --> 00:19:20,880
Speaker 4: doesn't come down to your pocket book. It doesn't come

442
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:22,120
Speaker 4: down to what is the inflation?

443
00:19:22,240 --> 00:19:22,359
Speaker 3: Right?

444
00:19:22,440 --> 00:19:25,600
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, you know, people don't vote in that way.

445
00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:29,119
Speaker 4: I'm sorry, it's vibes. Sorry, we bring up an a

446
00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:31,959
Speaker 4: lot of what passes for politics in this country's just vibes.

447
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,119
Speaker 4: When I meet people who are Democrats, I meet normal

448
00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:38,040
Speaker 4: Democrats will say to me, oh, well, Joe Biden's too old,

449
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,240
Speaker 4: and I think, you know, Donald Trump looks healthier. Literally,

450
00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:41,760
Speaker 4: somebody said that to me recent. I was like, what

451
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:44,719
Speaker 4: you think Donald Trump is more mentally fit than Joe

452
00:19:44,760 --> 00:19:46,520
Speaker 4: Biden when he looks that way, I was like.

453
00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:48,760
Speaker 2: What, it's literally because he's heavier.

454
00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:51,040
Speaker 4: And it's not even because that person's gone and studied

455
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:54,480
Speaker 4: their statements or want it's just what they're hearing in the.

456
00:19:54,560 --> 00:19:56,680
Speaker 2: Air vibes many.

457
00:19:57,160 --> 00:19:59,720
Speaker 1: I could keep you on for another forty minutes, but

458
00:19:59,760 --> 00:20:01,080
Speaker 1: then we'll both get in trouble.

459
00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:03,800
Speaker 2: Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank.

460
00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,680
Speaker 4: You for having me and let me rent on a Friday.

461
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 1: Daniel's Squadron is one of the founders of the States Project.

462
00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:17,919
Speaker 2: Welcome to Fast Politics, Daniel Squadron.

463
00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, an honor.

464
00:20:19,400 --> 00:20:20,199
Speaker 2: So talk to.

465
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,399
Speaker 1: Us about what the State's Project is well.

466
00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,720
Speaker 3: States Project believes that state lawmakers are just about the

467
00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:29,360
Speaker 3: most important policy makers in the country and have been

468
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 3: left to the worst forces in our politics for fifty years.

469
00:20:33,160 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 3: So the States Project is an effort to try to

470
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:41,640
Speaker 3: build power in state legislatures for lawmakers committed to improving

471
00:20:41,720 --> 00:20:46,119
Speaker 3: lives with broadly popular values and goals, and then giving

472
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 3: the lawmakers the tool the training they need to govern

473
00:20:49,760 --> 00:20:52,720
Speaker 3: in a way that delivers for their constituents and and

474
00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 3: crew's law. Its booking with short term and over time.

475
00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:59,000
Speaker 1: So Republicans have had a head start here, let's talk

476
00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,240
Speaker 1: a little bit about ALEC, and like with so many things,

477
00:21:03,280 --> 00:21:04,680
Speaker 1: Republicans have had headstart.

478
00:21:05,000 --> 00:21:08,280
Speaker 3: Yes, and ALEC, you know is the American Legislative Exchange Council,

479
00:21:08,320 --> 00:21:09,880
Speaker 3: which I know you know and probably many of dear

480
00:21:09,920 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 3: listeners do, but most Americans who never heard of it.

481
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:14,720
Speaker 3: The most important to the organization in the country that

482
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:16,840
Speaker 3: most people have never heard of. It was found in

483
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:20,680
Speaker 3: nineteen seventy two, the same time as the Heritage Foundation,

484
00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:27,159
Speaker 3: in order to drive extremist, far right special interest issues

485
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,359
Speaker 3: to state lawmakers around the country. I served in New

486
00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,159
Speaker 3: York State Legislature for nearly a decade, and on the

487
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,720
Speaker 3: other side of the aisle, Republicans were in the majority

488
00:21:34,800 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 3: and were being handed issues and getting support ideas prop

489
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 3: state contact from ALEC, and those ideas were coming from

490
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:43,760
Speaker 3: their biggest donors.

491
00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:47,199
Speaker 1: The sort of thinking behind ALEC was that if you

492
00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 1: could give state legislators who don't have a ton of

493
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 1: money already written legislation, they would use it. And that

494
00:21:56,040 --> 00:21:57,159
Speaker 1: is kind of what's.

495
00:21:56,880 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 3: Happened right exactly, That legislation gets ritten in secretive ALEC

496
00:22:01,880 --> 00:22:07,080
Speaker 3: working groups by big corporations and extremistic dist.

497
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:09,920
Speaker 1: So one of the things that has happened in state

498
00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:14,600
Speaker 1: legislatures around America is there are a couple of new

499
00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:16,919
Speaker 1: laws that you can sort of trace back to this,

500
00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,760
Speaker 1: and maybe they're not alec, but they are from this influence.

501
00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: I would think one of them would be the lowering

502
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:27,000
Speaker 1: punishments for child labor right. That's something we've seen pop

503
00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,640
Speaker 1: up at different state houses. Sarah Sanders did it. Then

504
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:34,320
Speaker 1: we also saw the governor of Arkansas. We've saw pushes

505
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:38,720
Speaker 1: of anti trans bills. You can see these themes reverberate

506
00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,120
Speaker 1: throughout state legislatures.

507
00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:42,879
Speaker 3: Chat and you and I think that what happened with

508
00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 3: the constitutional right to make healthcare decisions, run, sell through

509
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,800
Speaker 3: reproductive health decisions and abortion is in many ways the

510
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:55,840
Speaker 3: icon of this constitutional right defined explicitly.

511
00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:59,080
Speaker 2: We're talking about SB eight in Texas.

512
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,240
Speaker 3: Here, well, I'm really talking and actually about the Mississippi

513
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,919
Speaker 3: law that gave these Supreme Court justice the excuse to

514
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 3: a rac and constitutional right.

515
00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 2: So dobbss exactly.

516
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,440
Speaker 3: There were more than a dozen different versions poppying around,

517
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,639
Speaker 3: many look of whites, all designed as part of a

518
00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,280
Speaker 3: strategy to give the court to smorgasboard to choose from

519
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 3: in order to erase the right in the twenty teams.

520
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 3: We were in Mississippi in twenty nineteen that bill had

521
00:23:28,640 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 3: just passed, and if you were working in the state legislature,

522
00:23:32,320 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 3: you knew exactly why it was passing in exactly the

523
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:38,120
Speaker 3: forum it was, and you knew, as you point out,

524
00:23:38,200 --> 00:23:42,120
Speaker 3: kimmilar bills in Texas, Missouri, Kentucky and around the country.

525
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 1: So many of the Supreme Court decisions we've seen lately

526
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,840
Speaker 1: are the product of these cases that are crafted for

527
00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 1: the Supreme Court decision. You know, it Usually the way

528
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 1: it's supposed to be is you have a case and

529
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 1: then the court decided. But now we have a situation

530
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 1: where because there's so much money in conservative politics and

531
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: these conservative policies, they really were seeing cases that are

532
00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: crafted to get a certain Supreme Court decision. And that

533
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,720
Speaker 1: I think of the three H three Creative decision, which

534
00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 1: is a really good example of that three H three creative.

535
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: The woman never made a website, but she wanted to

536
00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:25,399
Speaker 1: know she could discriminate against gay people if she decided to.

537
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:31,160
Speaker 3: It's really their cycle is state legislatures and the court,

538
00:24:31,480 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 3: back and forth state legislatures because between gerrymandering, lack of

539
00:24:35,640 --> 00:24:39,719
Speaker 3: public attention, and I would say disdain from our side,

540
00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 3: they had outside power in the courts because they don't

541
00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 3: need to answer to the people. Meanwhile, on our side,

542
00:24:47,960 --> 00:24:51,160
Speaker 3: I would say there's an obsession with the presidency and

543
00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 3: the every two year fight for Congress. You know, it's

544
00:24:53,960 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 3: interesting until this past November, Democrats are the trifecta inside

545
00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:01,159
Speaker 3: the belt Leigh and Washing you see both chambers of

546
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,119
Speaker 3: Congress and the White House. And yet the right to

547
00:25:04,160 --> 00:25:06,879
Speaker 3: abortion was a race and then a race for hundreds

548
00:25:06,920 --> 00:25:09,200
Speaker 3: of millions of people, including every state in the South

549
00:25:09,400 --> 00:25:14,200
Speaker 3: exception Virginia. Issue after issue, state legislatures in the court

550
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,440
Speaker 3: is what they're doing and where you know, dancing about

551
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 3: the shiny out there.

552
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,879
Speaker 1: So I want to ask you, as we're sort of

553
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,560
Speaker 1: looking at these state legislature bills, give us an example

554
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: of what your organization does.

555
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:30,920
Speaker 3: The first thing we do, and this is really important,

556
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: is we try to make the job for state lawmakers

557
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,919
Speaker 3: who are there to be responsible to their constituents easier.

558
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 3: Here this is our job. I know that the idea

559
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:43,200
Speaker 3: the term of state lawmaker just just sting the blamour

560
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 3: and glitz. And it's probably even harder left lamorous, let

561
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 3: with the than people would imagine it, or the op

562
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,680
Speaker 3: culture commentary would mop these.

563
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: Are people living in Albany.

564
00:25:54,359 --> 00:25:57,600
Speaker 3: These are people commuting to Albany, in my case, one

565
00:25:57,680 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 3: hundred and fifty three miles, you know, twice a week

566
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 3: from my hall my kids, or Springfield or Lansing or

567
00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:06,639
Speaker 3: you know. It's part time in most dates, even the States,

568
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,919
Speaker 3: it's full time. It's low pay, there's little or no

569
00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: staff support. You know. Sometimes you'll ask the state Lonmacker

570
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:14,480
Speaker 3: how many staff you've had, and they'll say, oh, there's

571
00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:18,440
Speaker 3: one person for everyone. So a lot of the issue

572
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:20,440
Speaker 3: is you get into office, there's an issue that drove

573
00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 3: you there. You care about your local school, you care

574
00:26:22,960 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 3: about a bridge that's falling apart, you want to do

575
00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 3: public service. You get there and you have to deal

576
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,960
Speaker 3: with a thousand bills a year, and on the other side,

577
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:36,200
Speaker 3: high powered lobbyists, ALEC others are just surrounding you with information.

578
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:37,880
Speaker 3: If what you want to do is be a responsive

579
00:26:37,880 --> 00:26:40,600
Speaker 3: to your constituents and say, like you, no, there's this

580
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:43,240
Speaker 3: bridge issue in my district. We're in a budget brunch.

581
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:45,560
Speaker 3: What do I do about it? You know, it's possible

582
00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 3: that you know, veering pansa. Somebody in Nebraska has based

583
00:26:49,119 --> 00:26:50,919
Speaker 3: that issue involved it. The one thing we do is

584
00:26:50,920 --> 00:26:54,199
Speaker 3: we try to connect lawmakers across they who have common

585
00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 3: issues that aren't driven or talked about by lobbyists inside

586
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 3: the hall of their capital, but matter heck of a

587
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 3: lot to their constituent. The second thing we do is

588
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 3: try to just give them the tools to think about

589
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: how to work together. You know, in Michigan and Minnesota

590
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 3: and Pennsylvania this year there are extremely tight majorities won

591
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 3: by just a couple of dozen votes, and no votes

592
00:27:18,640 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 3: to give if they want to do things like raise

593
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:24,919
Speaker 3: the minimum wage or past paid family lead. So we

594
00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 3: help give tools and a framework so that they can

595
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 3: figure out how to work together and where they have

596
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:31,200
Speaker 3: the vote, so it doesn't end up sort of in

597
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 3: what happened in New York when I was there, which

598
00:27:33,680 --> 00:27:38,239
Speaker 3: is inviting. That meant very little could get done and

599
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:39,879
Speaker 3: it was hard to make the case to the voters

600
00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 3: next time around.

601
00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: I think of Minnesota as sort of this incredible example

602
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:48,879
Speaker 1: of Democrats killing it when it comes to state legislature.

603
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:51,879
Speaker 2: Can you tell us what they did right there?

604
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,639
Speaker 3: One thing they did that is really important I want

605
00:27:54,680 --> 00:27:57,239
Speaker 3: to send around to every state in this country is

606
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 3: they imagined the future for it to kurt and the

607
00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 3: Minnesota sennet flipped this year, which created a trifecta there

608
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,199
Speaker 3: where they're going to split government. That was hard to

609
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:09,440
Speaker 3: get things done in But they didn't start planning or

610
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:13,840
Speaker 3: thinking about their agenda after election day. They were planning, thinking,

611
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,440
Speaker 3: doing the hard work with some of the partners who

612
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 3: have issues. They care a lot about, the constituents, they

613
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 3: care about and each other for years, even before they

614
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:28,000
Speaker 3: had the gabble that let them move legislation so prior

615
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 3: to preparation for events for performance. It's a good old cliche,

616
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:34,480
Speaker 3: and sometimes things are cliches for a reason. That's one

617
00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:37,920
Speaker 3: thing they did, and again, any state in this country,

618
00:28:38,240 --> 00:28:43,160
Speaker 3: deep red, purple, right blue, planning matters a lot. The

619
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,520
Speaker 3: second thing is they knew that the way they got

620
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 3: there was voters who turned out for down ballot racing

621
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,040
Speaker 3: or frost parties from the top of the ticket to

622
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:56,200
Speaker 3: the bottom of the ticket. So they were very focused

623
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 3: on delivering actually for most minutes, expanded rights so that

624
00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: everyone could live their lives with equal opportunity. They were

625
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 3: very clear on their value and very clear on making

626
00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:16,000
Speaker 3: the case publicly about them. The third thing is, you

627
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:18,360
Speaker 3: know they don't have a full time legislature, so they

628
00:29:18,360 --> 00:29:22,400
Speaker 3: were on the clock, and thinking about your deadline and

629
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:25,720
Speaker 3: the period of time you have can really help. You know,

630
00:29:25,760 --> 00:29:29,280
Speaker 3: It's an interesting question because those sorts of tools and

631
00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,920
Speaker 3: lessons are ones that are certainly not rocket science, but

632
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,440
Speaker 3: it can be hard for a new state lawmaker or

633
00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 3: a new majority to take on. After things get started,

634
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:43,440
Speaker 3: things moved so quickly, you're responsible for the agenda every day.

635
00:29:43,520 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 3: The winds blow pretty strong in these state legislatures from

636
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 3: outside interests, and so just having a framework that you

637
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 3: want to do things that are popular, that are economical,

638
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 3: that will actually, you know, over time, health the states

639
00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 3: and people's financing that will immediately improve lives in ways

640
00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 3: that are demonstrable. You're telling the constituent that kind of framework,

641
00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 3: not three dimensional chats, but it can be very helpful

642
00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 3: once you're in the pressure cooker.

643
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,360
Speaker 2: Tell me what you guys do.

644
00:30:11,520 --> 00:30:14,760
Speaker 1: So you connect state lawmakers with each other, and then

645
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: do you supply them with bills?

646
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: We connect lawmakers with each other, We help groups of lawmakers.

647
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 3: Joanna McClinton, who is the speaker in Pennsylvania, just talking

648
00:30:25,160 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 3: about this this week to actually prepare for and think

649
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:32,920
Speaker 3: about the future. So different kinds of groups of folks

650
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 3: getting together making plans for the future. And the State's

651
00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 3: Project also does posts on our website at Statesproject dot

652
00:30:41,320 --> 00:30:45,440
Speaker 3: org a bunch of bills that are really ebuils to

653
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 3: achieve some broadly popular goals like equal opportunity for all

654
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 3: and affordable quality healthcare and every kid in this country

655
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:59,959
Speaker 3: graduating high school with a good day through twelve educator.

656
00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,200
Speaker 3: So there are bills that are reflections of ways to

657
00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 3: achieve these goals that we've seen occur in other state

658
00:31:07,560 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 3: on the website. And then because there's always new ideas,

659
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:14,160
Speaker 3: there's always the need when you're in a legislature to

660
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 3: get the votes of your colleague, the State Project helps

661
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:22,200
Speaker 3: lawmakers think about what other ideas they might need and

662
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 3: then help them try to find them.

663
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: So let me ask you, as we are in this

664
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: fight for our lives is twenty twenty four election wal

665
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,640
Speaker 2: Democracy Survive, what do you think is the sort of

666
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:40,280
Speaker 2: state legislature of what races you're watching? I know I

667
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: am thinking a lot about Virginia right now.

668
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:45,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, twenty twenty four privlet.

669
00:31:46,440 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, But let's talk about what it looks like

670
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:53,200
Speaker 1: Virginia now, and then what races you are on your radar.

671
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,800
Speaker 3: And there's a whole lot the state's project. We say,

672
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,280
Speaker 3: you have you know, fifty mini congresses out there around

673
00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 3: the country. Each one has its own interesting dynamics. When

674
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 3: it comes to the political side of the work. Virginia

675
00:32:06,080 --> 00:32:09,080
Speaker 3: is incredibly closed in both chambers. You know, there's a

676
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 3: real risk in Virginia, look at the staying into democracy.

677
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: If both chambers are lost and young Gimney can sort

678
00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 3: of do whatever he wants the governor down there, there's

679
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 3: even the risk that they could start to mess with

680
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 3: an undermine the presidential election. Those thirteen electoral votes coming

681
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 3: out of Virginia are critically important to actually be legitimately

682
00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 3: counted and operated. So Virginia this year incredibly close in

683
00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,520
Speaker 3: both the House and the Senate. And the stakes could

684
00:32:36,520 --> 00:32:39,000
Speaker 3: well be the free and fair presidential election.

685
00:32:39,600 --> 00:32:43,640
Speaker 2: Wait, why I feel like the stakes are choice? Right?

686
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:46,680
Speaker 1: Like, Young Cain could definitely get rid of choice, and

687
00:32:46,760 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: he could certainly do a lot of Florida style stuff.

688
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,960
Speaker 1: But why would the stakes be free and fair elections?

689
00:32:52,320 --> 00:32:54,640
Speaker 3: Right? Well, certainly choice, because it's the last southern state

690
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 3: where abortion is still legal, and for the free and

691
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 3: fair presidential election. There's this kind of concepts that in

692
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,360
Speaker 3: bouncing around the extreme right wing that your state legislatures

693
00:33:04,400 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 3: have a state power right when it comes to presidential

694
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:09,760
Speaker 3: electors and the president and the president. Ya. I think

695
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:13,200
Speaker 3: Supreme Court did a surprisingly good thing earlier this summer.

696
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:18,080
Speaker 1: Right, that's the state legislature theory, right right, And the

697
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 1: Supreme Court said and break that legislatures can't act totally

698
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: outside of their state constitution, they might even need the

699
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,360
Speaker 1: governor to sign off on fundamentally undermined the election.

700
00:33:29,520 --> 00:33:34,120
Speaker 3: What they didn't say is that the clarity and validity

701
00:33:34,160 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 3: of elections is enough a federal prerogative that states can't

702
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 3: mact with it. So if you have a unified anti

703
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,880
Speaker 3: democratic legislature and Glenn Youngkin trying to prove that news

704
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 3: trumpier than the magic and self, and you have a

705
00:33:50,040 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 3: state that has tended to vote for Democrats over the

706
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 3: last few presidential cycles, that's a real risk. So the

707
00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 3: States Project is very concerned that people are just looking

708
00:33:57,920 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 3: pat Forginia.

709
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm concerned that people are looking past Virginia. If

710
00:34:01,560 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: you're listening to this podcast. There's a major, super important

711
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 1: state race going on right now.

712
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,600
Speaker 3: Right now. And again, if I was a betting person,

713
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 3: I would sit this one out. It's so close right now.

714
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 3: I'm not, but it's real close.

715
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:14,800
Speaker 2: Yeah.

716
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 3: And then in twenty twenty four, you know there's some

717
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:20,800
Speaker 3: of the usual SUFFEC states that are really important. Michigan

718
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 3: has been doing incredible work. Just that Minnesota did That

719
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:28,879
Speaker 3: House majority is razor thin. Has to be defended next

720
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:31,719
Speaker 3: year a Minnesota and you talk about all the work

721
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:34,520
Speaker 3: they got done. Both chambers are up for election. You're

722
00:34:34,560 --> 00:34:39,759
Speaker 3: talking about hundreds of votes having determined the majority. There

723
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:43,240
Speaker 3: the Pennsylvania House with the Pennsylvania Miracle and twenty twenty

724
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:47,439
Speaker 3: two with the States Project help Pennsylvania House with by

725
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 3: ewer than one hundred votes that has to be defended.

726
00:34:52,239 --> 00:34:55,200
Speaker 3: And then across the country, you know a lot of

727
00:34:55,239 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 3: other interesting places and thresholds. You know, Nebraska having a

728
00:34:58,760 --> 00:35:02,040
Speaker 3: supermajority or an not can make them being different on

729
00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:04,960
Speaker 3: Arizona is a place that hasn't quite gotten over the topic.

730
00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: But and you know on all of these plates in

731
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 3: that in Virginia people can get involved the way you

732
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:12,520
Speaker 3: say it stas project, we actually create a tool for

733
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,080
Speaker 3: people to get involved, called giving circle, where they can

734
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:17,880
Speaker 3: actually create their own giving group, become experts on it.

735
00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:21,680
Speaker 3: They get their friends and neighbors to start singing this

736
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:25,759
Speaker 3: incredibly important tune and have a vastly bigger impact on

737
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,279
Speaker 3: the outcome than they ever could at Congress. It's not

738
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 3: too late to even start a giving circle or Virginia

739
00:35:31,360 --> 00:35:35,080
Speaker 3: if folks appropriately get worried after they hear everything you said.

740
00:35:35,320 --> 00:35:37,400
Speaker 2: Thank you so much. I hope you'll come back.

741
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:38,840
Speaker 3: Oh any time. Thank you for having me.

742
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,560
Speaker 1: Steve Inskeep is the host of Morning Edition and Up

743
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: First on National Public Radio and author of Differ We

744
00:35:47,600 --> 00:35:51,200
Speaker 1: Must How Lincoln succeeded in a divided America.

745
00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:54,680
Speaker 2: Welcome too Fast Politics.

746
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 3: Steve, thank you, it's great to be here.

747
00:35:56,239 --> 00:35:58,080
Speaker 1: I have a theory of why you wrote this book,

748
00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: but I want to hear from you.

749
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:00,920
Speaker 2: Why did you write this book?

750
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 3: I was going to say, if you already know, I

751
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 3: could just listen and find out why.

752
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 2: I still love that.

753
00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:08,120
Speaker 3: Tell me your theory. I want to know the theory.

754
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 1: Well, so you wrote this book about Lincoln, and I

755
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: think that when Biden got inaugurated, which would be about

756
00:36:16,680 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 1: three years ago, there was a lot of sort of

757
00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: feeling that he could be a sort of Lincoln president.

758
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 3: Oh so that's the theory.

759
00:36:24,200 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's my theory. Is that not right at all?

760
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 6: Well, I think the timeline would complicate that a little

761
00:36:30,200 --> 00:36:33,360
Speaker 6: bit because I started it in early twenty twenty, the

762
00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 6: spring of twenty twenty. I think I started with a

763
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 6: particular interest in history and evolved to understand how it

764
00:36:39,360 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 6: related to the politics of now. And you're definitely right

765
00:36:42,640 --> 00:36:46,080
Speaker 6: that it relates to the politics of now. But my

766
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 6: starting point is that I've always admired Lincoln, and I

767
00:36:49,120 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 6: grew up in Indiana, where he spent a lot of

768
00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 6: his boyhood. And then I've written two other books on

769
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:55,839
Speaker 6: the nineteenth century, and so you learn a lot about

770
00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:58,400
Speaker 6: Lincoln and just the context and the background, and you

771
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:01,520
Speaker 6: see how it relates to present day as well. And

772
00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,279
Speaker 6: then I got this idea to do a book that

773
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 6: would tell Lincoln's whole life through his meetings with people

774
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:10,880
Speaker 6: who were in some way different from him, like a

775
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 6: diverse group of people, I mean, different backgrounds and also

776
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 6: different races and genders and all sorts of different things.

777
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 6: And then I realized it wasn't exactly a book about difference.

778
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 6: It was mainly a book about disagreement, about his meetings

779
00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:24,960
Speaker 6: with people who disagreed and how he dealt with them.

780
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:27,440
Speaker 6: As you can see, the purpose of the book is

781
00:37:27,480 --> 00:37:31,280
Speaker 6: creeping closer and closer to our really discordant and divided

782
00:37:31,360 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 6: moment now, where I don't really think we're headed for

783
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,920
Speaker 6: a civil war or anything, but Lincoln's time is something

784
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:37,480
Speaker 6: to tell us.

785
00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, I don't think you can say that

786
00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:44,839
Speaker 1: we're definitively not Again. I hate this civil war talk,

787
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,720
Speaker 1: and I think it's really important to not ever sort

788
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:52,480
Speaker 1: of have rhetoric that is inflammatory. But we're as certainly

789
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 1: as much on the precipice of terrifying political violence as

790
00:37:55,480 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 1: we've ever been in my lifetime.

791
00:37:57,360 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 6: Oh, political violence is another thing. Political islands is very

792
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 6: possible because it's just this very American thing, right Like

793
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 6: you look into history and you realize we've had a

794
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:08,360
Speaker 6: lot of it of different kinds at different points. I

795
00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:10,399
Speaker 6: should say about a civil war, I mean, I don't

796
00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 6: predict the future, and if it happens, I'll cover it.

797
00:38:12,800 --> 00:38:15,799
Speaker 6: But what makes me think it's not imminent is what

798
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,600
Speaker 6: really would it be about. I mean, the Civil War

799
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 6: was about slavery, which was this huge economic system that

800
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:25,440
Speaker 6: implicated everybody in the country in various ways, and it

801
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 6: was an enormous difficulty to do anything about it, even

802
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:32,400
Speaker 6: when people agreed that it was wrong. We have today

803
00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 6: this big divide in the country. But it's really and

804
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 6: I don't mean to say there's no serious issues. There's serious,

805
00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:40,160
Speaker 6: big issues, things like abortion. We could list ten big things,

806
00:38:40,200 --> 00:38:43,560
Speaker 6: but it's a really incoherent divide. I don't see people

807
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:47,120
Speaker 6: truly going like into armies in Civil war about memes

808
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:50,640
Speaker 6: and attitudes and the various things that people argue about

809
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,279
Speaker 6: and get mad about day by day. Yeah, it doesn't

810
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 6: seem eminent.

811
00:38:54,080 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 1: It is though this strange earth one versus Earth's true reality,

812
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:03,440
Speaker 1: which could ultimately descend into anything. But I want to

813
00:39:03,440 --> 00:39:05,840
Speaker 1: get back to this idea of there's sort of relevance

814
00:39:05,840 --> 00:39:08,799
Speaker 1: of Lincoln to now, so talk to me about that.

815
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:13,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, what Lincoln did face was a divide in society

816
00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:17,359
Speaker 6: where people had radically different ideas of society and also

817
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,440
Speaker 6: had every other kind of difference that they have because

818
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:23,359
Speaker 6: I mean, it's a republic, it's a democracy, and I

819
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,520
Speaker 6: think that in this book, I'm able to show him

820
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:28,719
Speaker 6: practicing a skill that a lot of us sort of

821
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,839
Speaker 6: have contempt for now have lost respect for, or thrown

822
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 6: up our hands. It's like useless to talk to the

823
00:39:34,080 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 6: other side. They're all zombies over there. They don't listen,

824
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 6: they've got alternative facts, everything's made up. What's the point

825
00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 6: of arguing with them. It's very frustrating, and I don't

826
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 6: deny some truth in that. It can be very frustrating

827
00:39:45,120 --> 00:39:46,920
Speaker 6: to talk to people on the other side. And it

828
00:39:46,960 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 6: is very hard to change the mind of a human being.

829
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:53,160
Speaker 6: I mean, think about that. You go to Thanksgiving with

830
00:39:53,320 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 6: your crazy uncle or crazy you, and you think you're

831
00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 6: going to change his mind over dinner, like the beliefs

832
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 6: that he's over the last thirty years.

833
00:40:01,400 --> 00:40:02,760
Speaker 3: I mean, that's not very likely.

834
00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 6: But Lincoln understood that even if you don't change the

835
00:40:07,080 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 6: other person's mind, even if they don't change your mind,

836
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:12,799
Speaker 6: you can get something out of that encounter. You might

837
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 6: find out of like ten big things you agree on

838
00:40:15,320 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 6: one you might find out that you don't agree on

839
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 6: anything and can't do business with this person at all,

840
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:22,359
Speaker 6: But you learn something from the exchange. He even had

841
00:40:22,360 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 6: people because he's a politician and he's practical and he's

842
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,839
Speaker 6: trying to get things done. There are even occasions where

843
00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:30,720
Speaker 6: he was able to use people. They didn't agree about anything,

844
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 6: but he managed to get some use out of them

845
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:33,760
Speaker 6: for his cause.

846
00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: It's true, I kind of want to argue with you

847
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: about talking to the other side as much as I

848
00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:42,440
Speaker 1: am a person who comes from the Bulwark and appreciates

849
00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: never Trump conservatives. And you know, I mean I interviewed

850
00:40:46,600 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 1: doctor Hotels in Austin this weekend and we had RFK

851
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:55,279
Speaker 1: Junior and lots of really menacing looking people trying to

852
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 1: get us distracted or perhaps looking for the opportunity to

853
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:05,680
Speaker 1: do something really bad. So I do feel like, you know,

854
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:08,759
Speaker 1: it's one party wants to give you healthcare and the

855
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:13,399
Speaker 1: other party wants to end your rights. I mean, I

856
00:41:13,480 --> 00:41:15,839
Speaker 1: understand that you're on the straight news side, so it's

857
00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 1: you have to seem less partisan, but it does seem

858
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 1: to me like the insanity of the situation has to

859
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: be hard to parse.

860
00:41:24,760 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 6: I grant what you're saying, I don't even know. I

861
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 6: mean different we must did I just drop the book title?

862
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,440
Speaker 6: But no, Actually, I think we don't necessarily disagree. I mean,

863
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 6: there are some divides that you can't bridge. But the

864
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:40,040
Speaker 6: lucky thing is that democracy doesn't require that. I mean,

865
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:43,879
Speaker 6: democracy doesn't require everybody to agree. And when someone says

866
00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:46,800
Speaker 6: can't we all get along? I mean that famous Rodney

867
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:50,120
Speaker 6: King quote, which was so heartfelt and so sincere at

868
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:53,279
Speaker 6: the time, but as a political philosophy, actually, no, we don't,

869
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 6: and we're not going to because it's a free society

870
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 6: and we all have different backgrounds and we're going to

871
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 6: have different ideas, including a lot of crazy ones. And

872
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,280
Speaker 6: that's another thing that I learned studying the nineteenth century.

873
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 6: There've always been crazy conspiracy theories and bananas ideas and

874
00:42:06,960 --> 00:42:11,160
Speaker 6: warped ideas of humanity. That's always with us. But you

875
00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:14,240
Speaker 6: need a majority to be sensible. You need to assemble

876
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 6: a coalition of the majority that is sensible. And I

877
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 6: could give an example that's going to be really familiar

878
00:42:20,200 --> 00:42:22,959
Speaker 6: to you, Liz Cheney. I'm guessing that if we talked

879
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 6: about LGBTQ rights, you don't agree with Liz Cheney at all,

880
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,280
Speaker 6: find her bananas and dangerous. But if you are thinking

881
00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 6: in terms of getting facts out about January sixth, Liz

882
00:42:34,160 --> 00:42:36,400
Speaker 6: Cheney was very valuable to the country, cost her a

883
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 6: primary election.

884
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:38,560
Speaker 3: Of course, but she.

885
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,920
Speaker 6: Did her job. And that kind of alliance is the

886
00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 6: kind of thing that I think about when I think

887
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,160
Speaker 6: about Abraham Lincoln, who led the country into the Civil War.

888
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 6: I mean, he didn't get along with everybody either literal

889
00:42:50,719 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 6: war against other people in this country, but he knew

890
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,640
Speaker 6: he could keep and he had to keep a majority

891
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 6: on his side, and he ended up with a lot

892
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:03,800
Speaker 6: of literal slave owners who fought for the Union side

893
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:07,520
Speaker 6: and supported the country, which means that in the long term,

894
00:43:07,560 --> 00:43:09,719
Speaker 6: they did something to end slavery, which is kind of

895
00:43:09,719 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 6: wild to think about that slave owners helped to end slavery,

896
00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 6: and that is a tribute to Lincoln that he made

897
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 6: room in his coalition for people like that and didn't

898
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 6: say you're immoral and wrong out of here.

899
00:43:21,640 --> 00:43:25,120
Speaker 1: No, you think that Actually that case sort of makes

900
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,200
Speaker 1: my case. I mean, Liz Cheney, I don't agree with

901
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: her on a lot of stuff, but she her heart.

902
00:43:31,239 --> 00:43:32,960
Speaker 2: She wants government to succeed.

903
00:43:33,160 --> 00:43:37,799
Speaker 1: I mean, she believes in the sort of democratic principles.

904
00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 1: She is truly loathed and despised by people like Jim

905
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: Jordan and even people like Kevin McCarthy who run the

906
00:43:46,800 --> 00:43:48,839
Speaker 1: House GOP consider her to.

907
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: Be you know, an enemy of the state.

908
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:53,000
Speaker 1: I mean, I think of my own grandfather, Howard Fast,

909
00:43:53,040 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: who was jailed by McCarthy right from his trial right

910
00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: to his jail cell in nineteen fifties. And I wonder

911
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: when people in the government are wrong or evil or

912
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:12,080
Speaker 1: not respecting the democratic norms. If we don't say so, well.

913
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 6: Oh well, I mean, you call out people who don't

914
00:44:14,600 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 6: respect democratic norms. I don't think the call here is

915
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,399
Speaker 6: to be dishonest or to suppress the truth. The call

916
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:24,319
Speaker 6: is to try to deal with people where you can.

917
00:44:24,760 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 6: I mean, I think that would be Lincoln's call. And

918
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:30,759
Speaker 6: you discover sometimes in a big country, with this republican

919
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,000
Speaker 6: small r republican system that we have, that there are

920
00:44:34,000 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 6: people who you despise that maybe become allies from time

921
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 6: to time. I mean, I think about something like the

922
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 6: recent push by the state legislature in Alabama to again

923
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:48,279
Speaker 6: and again and again and again impose congressional districts so

924
00:44:48,320 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 6: there can be one less black representative or one more

925
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 6: Republican representative, or however they look at it, and I mean,

926
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 6: I understand their argument. They're like, it's racist to consider

927
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 6: race at all. We should just do the lines that

928
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 6: we want that elect more Republicans.

929
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:03,520
Speaker 2: But it's obviously not about racism.

930
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:07,200
Speaker 6: Sure, let's acknowledge their argument, but basically, the courts have

931
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 6: told them again and again and again, you're wrong, and

932
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:11,719
Speaker 6: they keep going back. They've gone back twice to the

933
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:14,480
Speaker 6: Supreme Court without knowing. You can imagine that they had

934
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,600
Speaker 6: a hope that the conservative majority super majority on the

935
00:45:17,600 --> 00:45:20,800
Speaker 6: Supreme Court would one way or another back them, and

936
00:45:20,840 --> 00:45:22,759
Speaker 6: they did. You know, maybe they wouldn't back them in

937
00:45:22,800 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 6: the end, but maybe they do one of those shadow

938
00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,920
Speaker 6: docket orders which would let them get another year or

939
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 6: two out of the map.

940
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:29,640
Speaker 3: This could just go on forever and ever and ever.

941
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:32,759
Speaker 6: And the Court, who I'm guessing you have had a

942
00:45:32,760 --> 00:45:36,560
Speaker 6: lot of criticism for, knocked them down and said, actually, no,

943
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,160
Speaker 6: that's not allowed. And so there was somebody sticking up

944
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 6: for the system, right. And we could have a long

945
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 6: debate about why they chose to do that, and whether

946
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:47,120
Speaker 6: the public criticism of the court on some other cases

947
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 6: had something to do with their opinions or whether they

948
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,080
Speaker 6: decided it purely on the law. I don't know, but

949
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:54,760
Speaker 6: they did something that you would agree with even if

950
00:45:54,920 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 6: a large majority of their decisions are things you don't

951
00:45:57,239 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 6: agree with.

952
00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:00,920
Speaker 1: No, I agree, and I also say something like that

953
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,560
Speaker 1: is pretty clear cut.

954
00:46:02,640 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 2: But it is hard. I mean, don't you agree.

955
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:05,880
Speaker 3: Oh, it's hard.

956
00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 1: I mean, especially when you have a situation like right now,

957
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:14,880
Speaker 1: Trump versus Biden. You cannot accurately describe Trump as a

958
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: candidate without seeming at least partisan.

959
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 3: Oh you mean, because if you just say the facts about.

960
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:24,000
Speaker 2: Him, Yeah, it seems very partisan.

961
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:25,359
Speaker 3: I would grant that.

962
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:27,880
Speaker 6: But now you're asking me, I think maybe about being

963
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 6: a newsperson, because as a journalist, I describe Trump, and

964
00:46:32,040 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 6: my job is to state the facts and to try

965
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:38,800
Speaker 6: really hard to state them calmly and state them fairly.

966
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,359
Speaker 6: I mean, I wrote a thing about this the other day,

967
00:46:41,840 --> 00:46:45,480
Speaker 6: about the question of how to think about Trump crump.

968
00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:49,319
Speaker 6: Trump is a criminal defendant because we are in a

969
00:46:49,320 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 6: country where you're innocent until proven guilty, and for all

970
00:46:52,160 --> 00:46:54,839
Speaker 6: we know, one, two, three, or four juries may well

971
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 6: find this person innocent. I have no idea, because that

972
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 6: is a matter of criminal law, and who knows what

973
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,319
Speaker 6: evidence they're going to admit, who knows what evidence they're

974
00:47:03,360 --> 00:47:06,240
Speaker 6: going to exclude, what anybody's going to think of anything,

975
00:47:06,280 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 6: what novel legal defense may come up. So I'm willing

976
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 6: to accept that Trump is innocent until proven guilty. But

977
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,400
Speaker 6: I also know, as a journalist who's been present and

978
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 6: following facts what he did, and so I am not

979
00:47:20,920 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 6: inclined to say allegedly tried to overturn the results of

980
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:25,560
Speaker 6: the twenty twenty election.

981
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:26,880
Speaker 3: Because we know all the evidence.

982
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:28,799
Speaker 6: You know, we're just going to say he did that,

983
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:32,000
Speaker 6: And if challenged on a source, I can say, well,

984
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,520
Speaker 6: he went to more than sixty courts and lost every time.

985
00:47:34,840 --> 00:47:38,319
Speaker 6: Thousands of election officials from both political parties affirmed that

986
00:47:38,400 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 6: the election results were fair. So that's really not something

987
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 6: we have to argue about. I think my job is

988
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 6: to accurately describe both of those things. He's an a

989
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 6: criminal proceeding. We honestly don't know how it's going to

990
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 6: turn out, but we do know the facts that are

991
00:47:51,520 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 6: at issue.

992
00:47:52,160 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, so let's talk about Lincoln.

993
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:56,200
Speaker 1: One of the things I think is really interesting is

994
00:47:56,239 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: this idea that he really did need to kind of

995
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:00,680
Speaker 1: sell what was doing it.

996
00:48:00,960 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, talk about that.

997
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 6: It's an incredible thing because of how little support really

998
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 6: there was for abolition in the United States. There were

999
00:48:08,320 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 6: all of these interests and prejudices and laws in favor

1000
00:48:13,160 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 6: of slavery, and remarkably few people who said this is terrible,

1001
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:18,279
Speaker 6: we have to end it right now. There was a

1002
00:48:18,400 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 6: very widespread view that slavery was wrong. And you know

1003
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,760
Speaker 6: this history. Southern states had embraced slavery since the founding

1004
00:48:25,760 --> 00:48:27,480
Speaker 6: of since before the founding of the country, and it

1005
00:48:27,560 --> 00:48:30,800
Speaker 6: got stronger and stronger as an industry, so to speak,

1006
00:48:31,080 --> 00:48:34,399
Speaker 6: and northern states had gradually abolished it. And so people

1007
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,160
Speaker 6: in the North understood that slavery was wrong. Honestly, a

1008
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:39,560
Speaker 6: lot of people who own slaves would say, yes, this

1009
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 6: is an evil, it is wrong. But when you got

1010
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:44,040
Speaker 6: around to the question of what to do about it,

1011
00:48:44,080 --> 00:48:46,719
Speaker 6: everybody would ham in hall or many people would and

1012
00:48:46,840 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 6: have reasons not to act. Northerners, for example, this was

1013
00:48:51,280 --> 00:48:55,719
Speaker 6: true in Abraham Lincoln's Illinois, were opposed to slavery, but

1014
00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,839
Speaker 6: would be very reluctant to have emancipation, because what if

1015
00:48:58,840 --> 00:49:01,959
Speaker 6: some of these millions of suddenly freed people came north

1016
00:49:02,000 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 6: in search of work and were competing against me for

1017
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,000
Speaker 6: a job and wanted to live in my neighborhood. People

1018
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 6: didn't want that. There were even people making arguments that

1019
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:15,080
Speaker 6: if millions of enslaved people were suddenly freed, they would

1020
00:49:15,120 --> 00:49:16,920
Speaker 6: not get along with white people. There would be a

1021
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 6: race war, and they would be exterminated. And therefore, according

1022
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,360
Speaker 6: to this argument, it was better for black people to

1023
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:26,480
Speaker 6: keep them enslaved. Crazy crazy thinking to us. But these

1024
00:49:26,840 --> 00:49:31,319
Speaker 6: extraordinary rationalizations made it really hard to build a big

1025
00:49:31,360 --> 00:49:34,960
Speaker 6: political coalition against slavery, and Lincoln had to be very

1026
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:37,759
Speaker 6: careful about how he talked. He had to be very

1027
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:41,520
Speaker 6: careful about what he stood for, even who he associated with,

1028
00:49:41,760 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 6: and he thought really hard about his audience and thought about,

1029
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,319
Speaker 6: how can I say it is in your interest to

1030
00:49:48,360 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 6: oppose slavery. How can I remind people that slavery may

1031
00:49:52,520 --> 00:49:56,279
Speaker 6: spread into this very state and harm you in some way,

1032
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 6: And that is why we need to be at least

1033
00:49:57,920 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 6: against it spreading, even if we can can't end it

1034
00:50:00,880 --> 00:50:04,279
Speaker 6: right now. His efforts to craft a political argument are

1035
00:50:04,280 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 6: fascinating to me, and they're grounded in his understanding of

1036
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:11,600
Speaker 6: human nature and how people kind of do build their

1037
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,759
Speaker 6: beliefs around their self interests, and he had to work

1038
00:50:14,800 --> 00:50:19,000
Speaker 6: with that and understand who was talking to and understand

1039
00:50:19,040 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 6: their interests and try to ignite them in a higher

1040
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 6: cause by engaging their interests in it.

1041
00:50:24,400 --> 00:50:27,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's such an interesting thing because we don't think

1042
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 1: about how unpopular doing the right thing can be. And

1043
00:50:34,560 --> 00:50:37,560
Speaker 1: you will see again and again if you go back

1044
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,520
Speaker 1: through history so many different times when doing the moral

1045
00:50:40,600 --> 00:50:42,839
Speaker 1: upstanding thing was wildly unpopular.

1046
00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:45,480
Speaker 6: Yeah, and there were people at the time who were

1047
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 6: saying the moral upstanding thing. Anybody who says, well, that's

1048
00:50:48,600 --> 00:50:50,720
Speaker 6: just how people believed at the time. There were plenty

1049
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,440
Speaker 6: of people around saying why slavery was wrong and what

1050
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,919
Speaker 6: ought to be done about it right now, but getting

1051
00:50:55,960 --> 00:51:00,640
Speaker 6: a majority to say that was really hard. And I'm

1052
00:51:00,680 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 6: thinking of a current example, if you'll allow me, where

1053
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 6: people are attempting this kind of politics, and it has

1054
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 6: to do with climate change. There's this Inflation Reduction Act

1055
00:51:10,680 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 6: that was passed last year that includes a bunch of

1056
00:51:12,719 --> 00:51:17,279
Speaker 6: money for renewable energy, and the administration is steering this

1057
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,560
Speaker 6: and there are plenty of other people who are engaged

1058
00:51:19,640 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 6: in it. A lot of the money for renewable energy

1059
00:51:22,560 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 6: products to battery plants, solar farms, wind farms, and so

1060
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:31,680
Speaker 6: forth are going toward Red states. And this is conscious

1061
00:51:31,800 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 6: on some level to make sure that people in red

1062
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 6: states who have not bought the science on climate change

1063
00:51:39,200 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 6: or increasingly have their own rationalizations for it. So like, yes,

1064
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 6: I accept climate change is real, but it's just not

1065
00:51:45,480 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 6: that big a deal. They haven't bought that. But this

1066
00:51:49,040 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 6: gives them an interest, a financial interest in the money,

1067
00:51:52,480 --> 00:51:55,840
Speaker 6: in the jobs, in what is Honestly, I mean, it's

1068
00:51:55,920 --> 00:51:58,880
Speaker 6: the energy industry. The energy that we use has to

1069
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 6: come from somewhere. We use a heck of a lot

1070
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 6: of it, use an unbelievable lot of electricity. You and

1071
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 6: I are using some right now. Has to come from somewhere.

1072
00:52:06,400 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 6: Might as well come from a wind turbine. Who cares?

1073
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 6: And if they can engage people in red states who

1074
00:52:14,360 --> 00:52:17,160
Speaker 6: to have an interest in climate change, the theory goes

1075
00:52:17,600 --> 00:52:21,880
Speaker 6: that changes the politics of climate change. Does that work?

1076
00:52:21,920 --> 00:52:23,919
Speaker 6: I don't know if it works or not. Honestly, again,

1077
00:52:23,960 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 6: I can't predict the future. But that's the kind of

1078
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:28,239
Speaker 6: politics that we're discussing.

1079
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:35,360
Speaker 2: So interesting. Thank you, Steve, You're welcome. In a moment,

1080
00:52:35,880 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 2: fuck Jesse Cannon, Molly John Fast.

1081
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:43,279
Speaker 3: The government did not shut down, despite the fact that

1082
00:52:43,640 --> 00:52:46,279
Speaker 3: everyone seemed to think it would. Tell me what you

1083
00:52:46,320 --> 00:52:47,759
Speaker 3: see here, you're.

1084
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 2: Just trying to gloat. You didn't think the government was

1085
00:52:50,920 --> 00:52:51,319
Speaker 2: shut down.

1086
00:52:51,360 --> 00:52:53,120
Speaker 3: You're giving me the chance to say that. I said

1087
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:55,040
Speaker 3: for two buds that this was never happening.

1088
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: You are a moment of fuck the one time that's

1089
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:03,719
Speaker 1: Jesse has been right before, but this one he was

1090
00:53:03,760 --> 00:53:07,720
Speaker 1: actually right. And literally every other newsroom thought the government

1091
00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 1: was going to shut down. So Jesse being right about

1092
00:53:11,200 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 1: the aversion of a government shutdown is our moment of fuck.

1093
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:18,200
Speaker 2: Ray So the government did not shut down at the

1094
00:53:18,239 --> 00:53:22,960
Speaker 2: eleventh hour. One Kevin McCarthy the weakest. We have never

1095
00:53:23,040 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 2: had a speaker who is less good at math than

1096
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 2: Kevin McCarthy, and supposedly even when he was whip he

1097
00:53:30,760 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 2: could not count votes. So this guy finally decided to

1098
00:53:35,719 --> 00:53:38,720
Speaker 2: pick up the cr that the Senate had passed twice

1099
00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 2: with more than seventy five votes, and he picked up

1100
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:43,240
Speaker 2: that exact same CR.

1101
00:53:43,760 --> 00:53:47,920
Speaker 1: And it's a he put it through. And so at

1102
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:51,279
Speaker 1: the eleventh hour, the government did not shut down. And

1103
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,160
Speaker 1: so they have a kind of hail Mary for forty

1104
00:53:54,200 --> 00:53:56,800
Speaker 1: five days. But would like to point out that after

1105
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,880
Speaker 1: he did that, Mad Mighty Mad Gates the Botox CA

1106
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:03,640
Speaker 1: went on Jake Tapper's.

1107
00:54:03,200 --> 00:54:07,400
Speaker 2: Show this morning, which will be to yesterday morning for

1108
00:54:07,440 --> 00:54:07,839
Speaker 2: all of you.

1109
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 1: And he told Jake Tapper that he was going to

1110
00:54:11,600 --> 00:54:14,919
Speaker 1: just make McCarthy's life miserable. He was going to put

1111
00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: together a motion to vacate, or as now it is

1112
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:21,840
Speaker 1: being called when you read in shorthand, MTV. So we

1113
00:54:21,920 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 1: are in a terrible point in American history where MTV

1114
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: now stands for her motion to vacate, and that, my friends,

1115
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:35,360
Speaker 1: is our moment of fuckery. That's it for this episode

1116
00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:39,000
Speaker 1: of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday and Friday

1117
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: to hear the best minds in politics makes sense of

1118
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:45,480
Speaker 1: all this chaos. If you enjoyed what you've heard, please

1119
00:54:45,560 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 1: send it to a friend and keep the conversation going.

1120
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 2: And again, thanks for listening.