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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: Hey Thearon, welcome back. You have found once again the

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Speaker 1: Book of Joe. Most interesting podcast about baseball and other

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Speaker 1: things on the planet with me, Tom Barducci and Joe

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Speaker 1: Madden and Joe. I mean, we've got to talk about

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Speaker 1: the guy everybody in baseball is talking about, and that

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Speaker 1: is Aaron Judge. Listen, you've been in the dugout on

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Speaker 1: the other side. You've seen this guy play, you watched

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Speaker 1: him throughout this season. I don't know how to expand

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Speaker 1: upon the fact that how good this guy is. But

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Speaker 1: here's my question for you, Joe. You've tried to take

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Speaker 1: some really good hitters out of a lineup by pitching

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Speaker 1: them unconventionally. How the heck do you handle Aaron Judge

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Speaker 1: these days if you're game planning against the New York Yankees.

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Speaker 2: I have been watching and it's just exemplary. I mean,

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Speaker 2: how about his line drives down the right field line

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Speaker 2: now all of a sudden, right, I mean, he's covering everything.

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Speaker 2: He's not well, the big thing is he's not in

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Speaker 2: chase mode. And when guys like that are not going

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Speaker 2: to help you at all, they're not going to be

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Speaker 2: in chase mode. They're going to make you throw the

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Speaker 2: ball over the plate to get them out. That's when

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Speaker 2: it becomes really difficult. Of course, uh, Stanton being back

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Speaker 2: really provides and wells their catcher doing much better is

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Speaker 2: also in the back of all these different teams' minds

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Speaker 2: right now. However, having said all that, I still would

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Speaker 2: spend a lot of time with the guys before that

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Speaker 2: regarding like listen, I know, I know who's hitting behind him.

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Speaker 2: I know they're pretty good. However, this guy is otherworldly

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Speaker 2: right now. It's like Bonds it is I you know,

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Speaker 2: you watch it. Like I said, he's covering, everything is

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Speaker 2: always on balance, he never overswings, he's not out of control.

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Speaker 2: It's really an incredible method. The ball probably looks like

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Speaker 2: a beach ball to him right now, literally, and he

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Speaker 2: sees spin, he sees it right out of the hand,

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Speaker 2: nothing's too quick, and it looks like there's like five

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Speaker 2: defenders and four defenders on the field as opposed to

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Speaker 2: those seven guys behind him out there. So it's it's

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Speaker 2: just one of those zones you get into. It's incredible

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Speaker 2: bully for him, because you know, I've had a chance

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Speaker 2: to speak with him, and I know you have. It's

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Speaker 2: the wonderful, wonderful representation of himself and in the game.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, everybody that knows and wishes him well and

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Speaker 2: hopes that he continues, and he's going to continue as

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Speaker 2: these guys pick up the slack behind him, he's gonna

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Speaker 2: have a chance to hit those sixty plus home runs

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Speaker 2: this year, at least get the sixty. But yeah, it's

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Speaker 2: it's watching Bonds. It's like it really is for me.

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Speaker 2: And I'm only saying that as I saw Griffy, and

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Speaker 2: of course then I saw a rod Early and all

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Speaker 2: the Frank Thomas as a hitter, but Bond stood out

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Speaker 2: to me because every time the bat left his shoulder,

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Speaker 2: you thought it could be a home run. It really did.

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Speaker 2: And every time the bat leaves Judge's shoulder, you think

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Speaker 2: it could be a home run. And then and then

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Speaker 2: last point, when you see that and you see how

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Speaker 2: Ales and Goodie is at doing this, you wonder why

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Speaker 2: more guys, you know, why is there such a dearth

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Speaker 2: in offense? Whereas this guy him and Bobby with Junior

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Speaker 2: all the there's a certain subset that is really kind

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Speaker 2: of demonstrating just the opposite. So it's what is the

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Speaker 2: magic juice here? What is the magic potion that permits

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Speaker 2: this this select group? But maybe that's always been that way,

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Speaker 2: but it's a select group to really be in that

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Speaker 2: other league. I mean, there's there's Triple A, there's four A,

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Speaker 2: there's the big leagues, and enters that other league where

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Speaker 2: a judge is playing right now.

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Speaker 1: I would say the answer to that is the same

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Speaker 1: thing I thought was Barry Bonds's greatest gift, and that

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Speaker 1: was the ability to recognize pitches early and swing decisions.

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Speaker 1: And I think you hit on this early and that

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Speaker 1: answer Joe, and that Aaron Judge is so selective. His

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Speaker 1: chase rate is at a career low nineteen percent. The

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Speaker 1: major average major league baseball hitter will chase a pitch

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Speaker 1: out of the strike zone about twenty eight percent of

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Speaker 1: the time. Good luck trying to make a living trying

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Speaker 1: to hit pitches out of the zone. You just can't.

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Speaker 1: So Judge, just to give you an example, he's always

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Speaker 1: been good in terms of plate discipline. Two years ago,

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Speaker 1: when he hit his sixty two home runs, he was

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Speaker 1: at twenty three percent, still below average in terms of

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Speaker 1: chasing pitches, which is great, But he's gone another level

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Speaker 1: in terms of his plate discipline. And that's what I see.

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Speaker 1: A guy who's very quiet at the plate. He's very

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Speaker 1: very Rarely do you see Aaron Judge out on his

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Speaker 1: front foot hand coming off the bat right. He just

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Speaker 1: seems to me to be so relaxed, and if you

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Speaker 1: do come into the zone, he's not gonna miss it.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's what I see, Joe. And I know

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Speaker 1: you're a guy took You got inside Ken Griffy Junior's

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Speaker 1: head years ago with the first shift that he saw.

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Speaker 1: You got inside Bryce Harper's head by basically walking him

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Speaker 1: every time he came to the plate. When you're a

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Speaker 1: manager at the Cubs, I don't know what you can

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Speaker 1: do with Aaron Judge these days. I do know that

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Speaker 1: if you go buy scattering reports that the down and

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Speaker 1: away pitch I'm talking about in the zone, that tiny

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Speaker 1: corner down in a way. Up until last week he

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Speaker 1: was hitting two to eight with with one home run.

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Speaker 1: He generally is going to take those pitches anyway. But

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Speaker 1: last week he had two home runs on pitches in

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Speaker 1: that little tiny box there. So I don't know where

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Speaker 1: you go with Aaron Judge these days, because I think

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Speaker 1: he's just so patient about forcing you into the zone

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Speaker 1: and then hammering it when you do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and you the selectivity component of this. This is

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Speaker 2: something that really became popular early mid two thousands when

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Speaker 2: I was with the Rays and the one thing about

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Speaker 2: us having to play in the al Eas back then,

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Speaker 2: he had to play the Yankees and the Red Sox,

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Speaker 2: who were beasts, absolute beasts at that time. The lineups

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Speaker 2: were ridiculous one through nine, and the big the mantra

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Speaker 2: was we had to find pitchers they can get good

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Speaker 2: hitters out within the strike zone. That's really what it

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Speaker 2: comes down to. When you're facing selective teams. It's really

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Speaker 2: all about that. To me, it's about changing speeds. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: I think change ups are really good pitch in situations

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Speaker 2: against people like this normally, but it really it's a

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Speaker 2: part of the game offensive that's really difficult to teach,

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Speaker 2: and that would be to be selective. And for me,

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Speaker 2: that's why as a scout bringing whatever you're going to

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Speaker 2: do right now, primarily the players. I mean, the minor

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Speaker 2: leagues are so small right now, inadequate with numbers that

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Speaker 2: a lot of it's coming out of colleges and whatever

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Speaker 2: that these guys are getting there so quickly, but you

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Speaker 2: would want to scout selectivity. You want to scout that.

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Speaker 2: It's hard to teach that. And even if you had

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Speaker 2: time to bring somebody to the minor leagues an attempt

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Speaker 2: to teach that, it's hard to teach that DNA is DNA.

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Speaker 2: A guy that likes the swing is going to continue

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Speaker 2: to like to swing normally for me with the Angels

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Speaker 2: in two thousand and two when we want it. The

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Speaker 2: one big push we had in spring training was it

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Speaker 2: wasn't so much being selective, it was giving you other

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Speaker 2: tools to combat striking out moving the baseball. And I

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Speaker 2: know that could be frowned upon right now a little

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Speaker 2: because part of the putting the ball in baseball sometimes

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Speaker 2: it can't turn into two outs via double play, and

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Speaker 2: some times a strikeout is actually honestly a better play.

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Speaker 2: But you have to absolutely make a push to acquire it,

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Speaker 2: whether it's through drafting or through acquisition, to get the

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Speaker 2: most selective players that you can possibly find, knowing how

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Speaker 2: hard it is difficult it is to teach when you

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Speaker 2: get a batting order like that that really can wear

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Speaker 2: down a starting pitcher. Although going all over the place

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Speaker 2: with in today's game, that's okay because we have a

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Speaker 2: bunch of relief pictus we want to throw at you anyway.

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Speaker 2: Because there was a time that getting their starting pitcher

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Speaker 2: out of the game was a big part of the

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Speaker 2: strategy of being selective and making pictures throw pitches. I'll

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Speaker 2: always take the selectivity, obviously. The big thing I've pushed,

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Speaker 2: even as a young hitting instructor in the eighties was

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Speaker 2: attempting to balance your walks to your strikeouts. That was

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Speaker 2: the one thing I always thought, if that was in balance,

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Speaker 2: you pretty much had a decent eye at to play.

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Speaker 2: When you had an abnormal number of punchouts over walks,

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Speaker 2: normally not so good, and it was chasing. A lot

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Speaker 2: of the big guys did that. But then it was

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Speaker 2: okay because if you swung a lot, swung hard, you

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Speaker 2: might hit a home run. And then there was the

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Speaker 2: other guys, the guys that would walk more than they

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Speaker 2: struck out, and these were the on base guys that

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Speaker 2: were very attractive to the top part of the batting order.

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Speaker 2: So all this stuff has been part of the landscape

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Speaker 2: for a long period of time, and just for me,

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Speaker 2: just know one thing. It's hard to teach a hitter

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Speaker 2: that's been a swinger that Nikki Castianos as an example.

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Speaker 2: Nick likes to swing the bat. It's hard to make

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Speaker 2: Nick selective. He'll go through periods where he's not going

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Speaker 2: to chase as much and he gets really hot, but

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Speaker 2: when he's gonna gets back to the normal patterns, he's

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Speaker 2: going to chase. That's just who you are, and it's

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Speaker 2: hard to make somebody into somebody as a different hitter

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Speaker 2: than how you saw them the first time he laid

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Speaker 2: eyes on them.

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Speaker 1: And Joe, here's why I think it's more difficult than

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Speaker 1: ever at what you're talking about basically is swing decisions, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, I look at the gap now between the

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Speaker 1: minor leagues and the major leagues to mean it's bigger

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Speaker 1: than ever. And it's not because of velocity. There's guys

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Speaker 1: with great arms in the minor leagues, not as many,

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Speaker 1: I get it, But to me, it's about the spin

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Speaker 1: in the major leagues. There's a lot more spin in

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Speaker 1: the game today, and guys who get to the major

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Speaker 1: leagues generally can control it, certainly a lot better than

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Speaker 1: guys in triple A. So I think the young hitter

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Speaker 1: of the major leagues is faced with more difficult swing

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Speaker 1: decisions recognizing breaking pitches. Is that a strike to strike

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Speaker 1: breaking pitch?

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Speaker 2: Go ahead?

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Speaker 1: Let it rip? Is that a strike to ball breaking pitch?

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Speaker 1: Let it go. That's really hard to do at the

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Speaker 1: big league level for these guys, especially if you're in

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Speaker 1: Triple A. I know general managers who won't even look

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Speaker 1: at Triple A stats. I mean, the Triple A numbers

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Speaker 1: are ridiculous. The pitching there really is not good at all.

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Speaker 1: Most of the top prospects teams will keep in Double

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Speaker 1: A rather than send them to Triple A. So it's

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Speaker 1: tough a to evaluate these guys in Triple A especially

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Speaker 1: and be trying to assume a guy he's got great

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Speaker 1: minor league numbers, he's going to do it in the

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Speaker 1: big leagues because he's going to face more spin and

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Speaker 1: better spin than ever before. So to me, the game

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Speaker 1: is about swing decisions, and Aaron Judge really stands out

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Speaker 1: to me in the box. He just gives nothing away

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Speaker 1: in terms of what he's looking for, what he's sitting on.

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Speaker 1: He's he's like a lion on the prowl, you know,

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Speaker 1: He's just he's just standing there in a batter's box.

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Speaker 1: Daring you. They'll wait, wait, wait, and once you do

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Speaker 1: throw one over the plate, yeah, he's gonna pounce on it.

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Speaker 1: And that is reminiscent of Barry Bonds.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and what you're talking about right. First of all,

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Speaker 2: I agree that what you just said is it is

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Speaker 2: really well stated. Part of that is, then where do

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Speaker 2: you learn how to hit the break and ball? Right,

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Speaker 2: It's not just a new issue or problem. It's been

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Speaker 2: part of the landscape for a long time. Guys that

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Speaker 2: had a hard time with the breaking ball. There's, of course,

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Speaker 2: there's pitching machines, and a lot of guys do not

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Speaker 2: like it against the breaking ball machine. They just don't.

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Speaker 2: Some guys love it, some guys don't like it. But

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Speaker 2: part of the culture back in the day was going

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Speaker 2: to winter ball because notoriously, in winter ball, you would

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Speaker 2: face a lot more off speed stuff, whether it was

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Speaker 2: in Puerto Rico, Dominican, of course, Venezuela and Mexico really

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Speaker 2: had a lot of a lot of my Mexican pitchers

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Speaker 2: I had in the past. These dudes could really spin

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Speaker 2: a baseball and there was there was no such thing

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Speaker 2: as a fast ball count because they would drop something

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Speaker 2: on you in any particular count. So where do you

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Speaker 2: learn how to do this? That's part of the issue too.

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Speaker 2: I mean, if you try virtual reality glasses whatever to

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Speaker 2: put them on an attempt to do it, fine, whatever,

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Speaker 2: But the act probably the best way to learn all

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Speaker 2: this stuff not on the driving range. It's actually playing

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Speaker 2: the game. And winter ball I'd love I've said this

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Speaker 2: for years. I'm just I know it's a dead horse,

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Speaker 2: but researchers in winter ball to really hone in on

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Speaker 2: some of these skills would be outstanding. Players don't really

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Speaker 2: have to go there anymore financially like they had to

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Speaker 2: in the past, and there's so many you know, they

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Speaker 2: got to train, they got to do this, they got

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Speaker 2: to do that. But Frank Howard once said the best

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Speaker 2: teacher of the game of baseball is nine innings, and

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Speaker 2: I still agree with that. And if you want to

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Speaker 2: learn how to hit a break and ball, better go

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Speaker 2: find a place where they throw a lot of breaking

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Speaker 2: balls in play. It's too bad because I really culture,

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Speaker 2: like I said, the winter ball, a component of our

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Speaker 2: game which no longer really exists, thought was a big

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Speaker 2: part of young players getting better faster. And again, if

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Speaker 2: you had one particular issue with I don't know, you

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Speaker 2: want to become a shortstop where you want to put

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Speaker 2: crews in center field, or this guy's just you can

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Speaker 2: really handle a fastball, but he is horrible at breaking balls.

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Speaker 2: It was a great place to put them during the

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Speaker 2: winter time to really get better. I thinks, so that's

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Speaker 2: part of the teaching process that's no longer available.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, they do have plenty of high tech pitching

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Speaker 1: machines available. I mean, they have half million dollar pitching

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Speaker 1: machines that can simulate the exact spin of the starting pitcher.

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Speaker 1: You're going to face that night with an image on

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Speaker 1: a screen to that pitcher throwing, it looks like the

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Speaker 1: pitcher's literally throwing to you. You know, they have a

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Speaker 1: lot of devices to simulate the pitching. But it's an

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Speaker 1: interesting point you make. I know that the other day

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Speaker 1: Rob Thompson, the Phillies manager, his team has seen more

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Speaker 1: breaking pitches than any team in baseball in the month

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Speaker 1: of August, and the Braves kind of carved him up

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Speaker 1: in Atlanta last week with a ton of breaking pitches,

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Speaker 1: and he said, you know what, in Kansas City, We're

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Speaker 1: going to take the pitching machine out there, the curveball machine,

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Speaker 1: and these guys are going to hit on the field

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Speaker 1: with it. He thought that would make a difference rather

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Speaker 1: than being in the fluorescent lighting in that cage and

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Speaker 1: the controlled environment. So maybe that's getting to your point, Joe,

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Speaker 1: of getting out there on the field and seeing it

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Speaker 1: kind of in real time, real space.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, when you could do that and would you like

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Speaker 2: to do that, was without the turtle there, without the

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Speaker 2: batting cage there, because it's different when there's when there's

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Speaker 2: confines there, when there's this this thing is right behind

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Speaker 2: you here and you're in this more confined space. As

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Speaker 2: a hitter or even as a pitcher throwing into a

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Speaker 2: batting cage or not, it's different. It's just different. It's

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Speaker 2: a different feel completely. So that's that's the part that's

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Speaker 2: difficult to replicate. And of course with the break and

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Speaker 2: ball machine, you know the breaking ball's coming, which is

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Speaker 2: fine because I've done this and i've actually i've actually

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Speaker 2: I'll give you Charlie Phillips Jared Phillips are really nice,

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Speaker 2: really good first baseman, tremendous power, left hand hitter. Angels

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Speaker 2: drafted him. I think Jimmy Edmonds back to back in

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Speaker 2: the late eighties, early nineties j R. Could hit a fastball,

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Speaker 2: but man breaking ball with Chase Chase Chase. So I

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Speaker 2: used to set up a break a ball machine to

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Speaker 2: throw a ball, like you're saying I want, I would

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Speaker 2: set it up to throw strike the ball, and the

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Speaker 2: whole point was to take the pitch. I mean, there's

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Speaker 2: something to be said to teaching with these machines what

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Speaker 2: not to do, and that would be what to not

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Speaker 2: swing at. And I would do that specifically when Charlie

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Speaker 2: j Rrup jumps up in my mind immediately is the

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Speaker 2: guy that I used to take out to the cages

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Speaker 2: at Gunautry Park to do that with specifically. Then I

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Speaker 2: would bring it to other guys that I thought were

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Speaker 2: in Chase mode off breaking ball. So it works both ways.

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Speaker 2: It's either the ball strike because they so many times

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Speaker 2: you'll see a hitter a ball starting out at him,

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Speaker 2: he like flinches or takes that pitch. But of course

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Speaker 2: that's the better one to hit, and as opposed to

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Speaker 2: the one that's the breaking ball that starts more like inside,

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Speaker 2: inside edge or middle and breaks away, which is the

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Speaker 2: one they do end up swinging at, which is very

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Speaker 2: difficult to hit. So these are all the things you're

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Speaker 2: trying to pomplish. Record. Like you said, recognize early, understand

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Speaker 2: what the ball is going to do and how that's

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Speaker 2: going to match up with your abilities. So it's not

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Speaker 2: only about setting up a machine or whatever to hit

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Speaker 2: the breaking ball. It's also what to take and I

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Speaker 2: was big on that too.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you my favorite stat on Aaron Judge, and

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Speaker 1: there's a million of those, Okay. Last week and the

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Speaker 1: Yankees played six games against Cleveland and Colorado. First of all,

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Speaker 1: it was the first time in his career he went

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Speaker 1: six straight games without striking out, which was impressive enough.

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Speaker 1: But in those six games, Aaron Judge put the ball

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Speaker 1: in play. I'm talking about a fair ball twenty one times.

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Speaker 1: Seven of those were home runs. That's thirty three percent

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Speaker 1: of the time when he connected with the ball, he

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Speaker 1: hit it out of the park. If you go back

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Speaker 1: to the home run Derby this year, Pete Alonso was

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Speaker 1: a great home run hitter. Was batting against sixty seven

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Speaker 1: year old Dave Jows, throwing fifty mile an hour, cookies

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Speaker 1: over the plate and home run dirty. He hit thirty

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Speaker 1: two percent of the pitches that he saw out of

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Speaker 1: the park in home run Derby. So Aaron Judge is

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Speaker 1: making major League Baseball pitchers look like it's coach pitch

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Speaker 1: home run Derby. I mean, he saw sixteen different pitchers

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Speaker 1: speeds from seventy four to one hundred miles an hour,

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Speaker 1: and he's playing it like it's home run Derby. It's

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Speaker 1: just staggering. So Joe I like his chances to hit

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Speaker 1: sixty three, I really do. I think you've seen this

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Speaker 1: guy what happens when he gets hot at the rate

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Speaker 1: he's been going. I mean, he hit forty five home

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Speaker 1: runs in ninety four games. Not even Babe Ruth did that.

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Speaker 1: So he could cool off a little bit and still

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Speaker 1: get sixty three.

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Speaker 2: The one thing I'd like to point out with that

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Speaker 2: is I think the teams that are not in the

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Speaker 2: race are going to be more app to want to

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Speaker 2: throw to him. I think teams that are in the

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Speaker 2: race might be less apt to do that. You might

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Speaker 2: see different I don't even know what their schedule looks like.

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Speaker 2: I think they're going through a pretty good scratch now

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Speaker 2: playing non content, which that's going to benefit him. Also,

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Speaker 2: they have less to lose. They're going to be more

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Speaker 2: willing to challenge him. Period exclamation point, that's it. They're

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Speaker 2: playing Baltimore was an example, or the Guardians or Kansas

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Speaker 2: City or the teams that are in there Seattle trying

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Speaker 2: to get back in. Those are the kind of groups

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Speaker 2: that are not going to pitch to them, but those

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Speaker 2: that are out of it.

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Speaker 1: Here we go, speaking of Seattle, Joe, we have to

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Speaker 1: talk about the Mariners. After this quick break. They change

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Speaker 1: their managers, they have the best pitching staff in baseball,

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Speaker 1: and they can't hit. What has gone wrong in Seattle

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Speaker 1: will answer that question right after this. Well, Joe, I

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Speaker 1: think it was a little bit surprising when the Seattle

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Speaker 1: Maritors fired Scott Servis. He's had a long term relationship

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Speaker 1: and friendship with general manager Jerry Depoto. They had been

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Speaker 1: in first place only a matter of days ago, but

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Speaker 1: that was slipping away with the Houston Astros overtaking them.

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Speaker 1: I mentioned they're pitching staff, a great young staff, especially

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Speaker 1: their rotation. I think it's the best in baseball. But man,

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Speaker 1: they cannot hit. They lead the major leagues and strikeouts,

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Speaker 1: the batting average in the low two hundreds. This has

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Speaker 1: been going on for years in Seattle. If you're Seattle

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Speaker 1: right now, Joe, you have to do like an offensive audit,

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Speaker 1: what has gone wrong here? Because it's been systemic there

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Speaker 1: Where do you begin it.

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Speaker 2: Is the acquisitional method. I agree with that. When you

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Speaker 2: start blaming coaches and managers for a group that comes

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Speaker 2: in and continually cannot hit, there's something awry regarding how

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Speaker 2: we're acquiring these people in the first place. And then

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Speaker 2: beyond that, the training methods or what are the training methods,

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Speaker 2: what does the prep look like? But I know sometimes

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Speaker 2: you could get to the point where it's a really

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00:19:02,198 --> 00:19:05,358
Speaker 2: over the top and in my opinion, not necessary. Some

389
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Speaker 2: of the things that guys go through before a game.

390
00:19:07,558 --> 00:19:10,158
Speaker 2: The meetings they've turned into daily meetings, where in the

391
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Speaker 2: past it was just kind of like the first game

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Speaker 2: of a series meetings, and now they become a daily occurrence.

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Speaker 2: And again I'm just not into that. I don't. I

394
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Speaker 2: don't I think that players athletes, of course we want

395
00:19:23,478 --> 00:19:26,318
Speaker 2: to be coached. Of course you want information, but you

396
00:19:26,398 --> 00:19:30,638
Speaker 2: need sometimes just to get it in different ways, different methods,

397
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Speaker 2: just for you specifically, and not this homogenous method with

398
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Speaker 2: everybody being present. So it starts with the acquisitions, and

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Speaker 2: then it's a method methodology on a daily basis, keeping

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Speaker 2: things fresh. You talked about a pitching machine. I've always

401
00:19:44,278 --> 00:19:47,718
Speaker 2: believed in altering batting practices, and it doesn't always have

402
00:19:47,758 --> 00:19:49,598
Speaker 2: to be VP on the field. It can be VP

403
00:19:49,678 --> 00:19:52,318
Speaker 2: in the cages. It can be both. It could be

404
00:19:52,358 --> 00:19:55,238
Speaker 2: short VP. It could be meaning that that the pitcher

405
00:19:55,798 --> 00:19:57,878
Speaker 2: is shorter, it's it could be longer to get back

406
00:19:57,878 --> 00:19:59,638
Speaker 2: on him out. I used to actually do angle BP

407
00:20:00,198 --> 00:20:02,278
Speaker 2: and instructionings when I went to throw from an angle

408
00:20:03,318 --> 00:20:05,798
Speaker 2: like halfway between the mount and third base, appe between

409
00:20:05,838 --> 00:20:08,478
Speaker 2: the mount and first base, to just present a different

410
00:20:08,518 --> 00:20:10,598
Speaker 2: angle to either pull the ball or stay inside the ball.

411
00:20:10,838 --> 00:20:13,798
Speaker 2: For the right and left handed hitters, There's all different

412
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Speaker 2: things to do. To me, it's like we were talking

413
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Speaker 2: about earlier learning how to hit a breaking ball. It's

414
00:20:18,638 --> 00:20:21,678
Speaker 2: about actually doing it, and then how often do I

415
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Speaker 2: have to do this? Sometimes I think they get arm weary.

416
00:20:24,478 --> 00:20:26,718
Speaker 2: I think that guys just swing too often. I do.

417
00:20:26,798 --> 00:20:30,838
Speaker 2: I think it definitely happens, and it's it's you get

418
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Speaker 2: to the point where the point of diminishing returns does

419
00:20:32,998 --> 00:20:36,998
Speaker 2: set in based on this high volume of repetition, and

420
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Speaker 2: that has to be a concern and checked out too.

421
00:20:40,198 --> 00:20:43,198
Speaker 2: So start out with your acquisition method, who we bring

422
00:20:43,198 --> 00:20:45,118
Speaker 2: it in in the first place, once we get them,

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Speaker 2: how we what are we doing on a daily basis?

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Speaker 2: Is it? Are we keeping it interesting? We're keeping it fresh?

425
00:20:52,078 --> 00:20:53,638
Speaker 2: Are we are we varying this thing or is it

426
00:20:53,678 --> 00:20:57,918
Speaker 2: always the same road? Kind of an exercise? And furthermore,

427
00:20:57,998 --> 00:21:00,078
Speaker 2: what are what are the tenets of our teaching? What

428
00:21:00,158 --> 00:21:02,838
Speaker 2: are basics right here? What are we trying to get across?

429
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Speaker 2: And it has to be like a total reset. We

430
00:21:04,998 --> 00:21:06,678
Speaker 2: got to go back in and check the whole thing out.

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00:21:07,038 --> 00:21:10,918
Speaker 2: That's that's how I would approach something like this. Variety

432
00:21:11,318 --> 00:21:13,278
Speaker 2: is definitely the spice of life when it comes to hitting.

433
00:21:13,398 --> 00:21:15,958
Speaker 2: Don't permit these guys get in the rut. Definitely, don't

434
00:21:15,998 --> 00:21:18,718
Speaker 2: overload them with thoughts, keep things simple, teach them how

435
00:21:18,798 --> 00:21:21,798
Speaker 2: to react things to that nature where they go out

436
00:21:21,798 --> 00:21:25,198
Speaker 2: there and let their athleticism take over, because that's the

437
00:21:25,198 --> 00:21:27,958
Speaker 2: one part of analytics to me, in the in the

438
00:21:28,078 --> 00:21:31,878
Speaker 2: hitting realm is very non beneficial. It really benefits. We've

439
00:21:31,878 --> 00:21:35,158
Speaker 2: talked about this. I'm talking about acquisitions. It's aces. It's

440
00:21:35,238 --> 00:21:39,358
Speaker 2: aces when you want to place your defense aces. It's

441
00:21:39,398 --> 00:21:41,038
Speaker 2: aces when I want to know how to pitch this

442
00:21:41,158 --> 00:21:45,598
Speaker 2: to hitters. Aces. When it comes to benefiting hitters, it

443
00:21:45,678 --> 00:21:48,598
Speaker 2: really is kind of archaic and it doesn't help a

444
00:21:48,598 --> 00:21:48,958
Speaker 2: whole lot.

445
00:21:48,958 --> 00:21:51,998
Speaker 1: I don't think that's a lot to unpack there, Joe yep,

446
00:21:52,278 --> 00:21:54,398
Speaker 1: So let me start with No, let me start. I

447
00:21:54,518 --> 00:21:56,918
Speaker 1: like it because it's it's a complicated I like this

448
00:21:56,998 --> 00:22:00,158
Speaker 1: because it's a complicated question with a complicated answer, and

449
00:22:00,198 --> 00:22:03,198
Speaker 1: you can't just distill it down to one thing. So

450
00:22:03,278 --> 00:22:07,678
Speaker 1: let's start with coaching, right se Alla Mariners have Last

451
00:22:07,798 --> 00:22:11,598
Speaker 1: year they hired Brent Brown to be their hitting coach

452
00:22:11,998 --> 00:22:14,638
Speaker 1: or one of their hitting coaches and the bench coach.

453
00:22:14,678 --> 00:22:17,038
Speaker 1: To Scott Servis, they had played together. Brent had been

454
00:22:17,078 --> 00:22:20,238
Speaker 1: with LA Dodgers as a hitting coach previous five or

455
00:22:20,278 --> 00:22:22,958
Speaker 1: six years and did a really nice job there. They

456
00:22:23,038 --> 00:22:26,518
Speaker 1: brought him in there essentially to be the guy who

457
00:22:27,158 --> 00:22:31,398
Speaker 1: ran the meetings. Was more into the mental side of hitting,

458
00:22:31,478 --> 00:22:35,118
Speaker 1: and Jared DeHart, a younger guy, was more into the

459
00:22:35,158 --> 00:22:38,238
Speaker 1: mechanics of the swing. I wouldn't say their duties were

460
00:22:38,238 --> 00:22:41,318
Speaker 1: divided up cleanly that way, but generally that's how they

461
00:22:41,358 --> 00:22:44,518
Speaker 1: were divided up. And then there's another hitting coach as well,

462
00:22:44,558 --> 00:22:45,998
Speaker 1: And that's the other thing to think about here.

463
00:22:46,078 --> 00:22:46,238
Speaker 2: Joe.

464
00:22:46,278 --> 00:22:48,798
Speaker 1: There's so many voices right now, and teams are trying

465
00:22:48,798 --> 00:22:52,038
Speaker 1: to find the right balance between experienced former major league

466
00:22:52,078 --> 00:22:55,758
Speaker 1: players and these young guys coming up through hitting facilities

467
00:22:55,798 --> 00:22:59,238
Speaker 1: and college ranks who do not have major league experience

468
00:23:00,238 --> 00:23:03,078
Speaker 1: but know so much about the swing and the technology.

469
00:23:03,358 --> 00:23:05,758
Speaker 1: You have to have some element of that, and finding

470
00:23:05,798 --> 00:23:08,598
Speaker 1: that balance has been really tricky. So we get to

471
00:23:08,718 --> 00:23:11,558
Speaker 1: June and the Mariners get rid of Brent Brown. They

472
00:23:11,558 --> 00:23:14,878
Speaker 1: were in first place, obviously struggling offensively. That the first

473
00:23:14,878 --> 00:23:17,518
Speaker 1: place team gets rid of a hitting coach they just hired,

474
00:23:18,678 --> 00:23:21,078
Speaker 1: you know, seven eight months ago, so I don't know

475
00:23:21,118 --> 00:23:23,158
Speaker 1: where it went wrong. There was some talk that maybe

476
00:23:23,198 --> 00:23:25,958
Speaker 1: the meetings were too involved and complicated and the players

477
00:23:25,998 --> 00:23:29,038
Speaker 1: weren't getting it, but they got off Brent Brown midway

478
00:23:29,038 --> 00:23:30,918
Speaker 1: through a season in which they were in first place.

479
00:23:31,038 --> 00:23:35,318
Speaker 1: So listen, there's been so much churn in Seattle on

480
00:23:35,398 --> 00:23:38,758
Speaker 1: the roster side, like they don't give people a chance

481
00:23:38,838 --> 00:23:41,558
Speaker 1: to really get themselves settled there and make decisions on

482
00:23:42,038 --> 00:23:44,318
Speaker 1: who actually can help them and where they have to

483
00:23:44,358 --> 00:23:47,678
Speaker 1: go next. It's also happened to the coaching staff as well,

484
00:23:47,718 --> 00:23:50,438
Speaker 1: so I think it's something that Seattle is going to

485
00:23:50,478 --> 00:23:52,798
Speaker 1: have to look at that, the amount of churn. What

486
00:23:52,798 --> 00:23:54,718
Speaker 1: do you want of a hitting coach? And can you

487
00:23:54,798 --> 00:23:57,838
Speaker 1: trust somebody to establish an actual culture.

488
00:23:58,358 --> 00:24:01,438
Speaker 2: Again, there's a lot there too. I agree you mentioned

489
00:24:01,438 --> 00:24:04,918
Speaker 2: the veteran coach. I like, it doesn't have to be

490
00:24:04,998 --> 00:24:07,158
Speaker 2: necessarily a veteran coach or a former Major Leaguer's just

491
00:24:07,238 --> 00:24:09,038
Speaker 2: got to be somebody that good that could see things

492
00:24:09,118 --> 00:24:11,358
Speaker 2: during the game. You sit on the bench and you

493
00:24:11,398 --> 00:24:14,078
Speaker 2: can see things. I'm just speaking from experience. I was

494
00:24:14,118 --> 00:24:15,918
Speaker 2: able to do this as a hitting coach for seven

495
00:24:15,998 --> 00:24:18,518
Speaker 2: years in the minor leagues. I was actually the roving

496
00:24:18,598 --> 00:24:22,358
Speaker 2: hitting coach. And you know, that's spring training, that's all season,

497
00:24:22,398 --> 00:24:24,958
Speaker 2: different teams, that's instructionally. My god, how many swings do

498
00:24:24,958 --> 00:24:27,958
Speaker 2: you see in a season? And you get to the

499
00:24:27,998 --> 00:24:30,678
Speaker 2: point where you see things. We had video, of course,

500
00:24:30,718 --> 00:24:34,798
Speaker 2: but it was not nearly sophisticated obviously, but you're able

501
00:24:34,878 --> 00:24:37,918
Speaker 2: to see things because the point is during the game,

502
00:24:37,958 --> 00:24:40,318
Speaker 2: you want to be able to say one thing, reminded

503
00:24:40,358 --> 00:24:43,598
Speaker 2: guy about one thing, one conversation, one moment, I mean

504
00:24:43,678 --> 00:24:48,998
Speaker 2: a parcel, a particle, not this entire dissertation, in order

505
00:24:49,038 --> 00:24:50,518
Speaker 2: to get him back and get him right because it's

506
00:24:50,518 --> 00:24:53,638
Speaker 2: about one thought so you can carry and it's about feel.

507
00:24:53,918 --> 00:24:56,038
Speaker 2: The best coaches are the ones that can teach field

508
00:24:56,278 --> 00:24:59,478
Speaker 2: because you don't really know something until you feel something

509
00:24:59,838 --> 00:25:02,358
Speaker 2: when it comes to a physical movement. So that was

510
00:25:02,398 --> 00:25:04,718
Speaker 2: my big thing is to have feel in order to

511
00:25:04,718 --> 00:25:10,558
Speaker 2: accomplish the feel necessary to get across the intellectual point

512
00:25:10,638 --> 00:25:12,958
Speaker 2: regarding what I'm trying to teach and in regards to

513
00:25:12,998 --> 00:25:16,518
Speaker 2: physical movement. So you had to see things, you had

514
00:25:16,518 --> 00:25:19,238
Speaker 2: to understand feel, you had to understand how to teach feel,

515
00:25:19,558 --> 00:25:22,638
Speaker 2: if that makes any sense. Through drill work, And I'm

516
00:25:22,638 --> 00:25:25,438
Speaker 2: a big drill work guy, and I think drill work

517
00:25:25,518 --> 00:25:29,598
Speaker 2: done properly, my god, it has so many benefits. And

518
00:25:29,718 --> 00:25:32,318
Speaker 2: drill work done improperly obviously could lead to the other

519
00:25:32,358 --> 00:25:35,958
Speaker 2: side of things. Just one more point. I always thought

520
00:25:35,998 --> 00:25:38,318
Speaker 2: in spring trainings, of whether it was in I mean,

521
00:25:38,638 --> 00:25:41,598
Speaker 2: minor leagues, whatever, all the way up, there should be

522
00:25:41,598 --> 00:25:44,918
Speaker 2: a heavier dose of physical training in spring training, meaning

523
00:25:45,798 --> 00:25:48,278
Speaker 2: you know, more mechanics, more and more physical mechanics will

524
00:25:48,318 --> 00:25:50,598
Speaker 2: be doing here. Any changes that were being made, let's

525
00:25:50,878 --> 00:25:52,838
Speaker 2: let's get this thing, let's call it down. What are

526
00:25:52,838 --> 00:25:55,038
Speaker 2: we going to do here? And once you've arrived at

527
00:25:55,078 --> 00:25:57,278
Speaker 2: that as it's like a sliding scale, as a seasons

528
00:25:57,318 --> 00:26:01,078
Speaker 2: in progress. It should be way less physical and way

529
00:26:01,118 --> 00:26:03,678
Speaker 2: more mental. How we're going to attack this guy? Where

530
00:26:03,718 --> 00:26:07,558
Speaker 2: you looking? You're looking fastball first? Are you're looking away,

531
00:26:07,598 --> 00:26:09,598
Speaker 2: you're looking at or you're zoning it up? You're like,

532
00:26:09,798 --> 00:26:11,758
Speaker 2: what do you like to pitch? You talk to a

533
00:26:11,798 --> 00:26:14,198
Speaker 2: lot of hitters. I've done it, and he would say,

534
00:26:14,638 --> 00:26:17,238
Speaker 2: consider yourself a high ball hitter a lowball hitter. They

535
00:26:17,238 --> 00:26:19,318
Speaker 2: didn't even know. They didn't even know where to look.

536
00:26:19,558 --> 00:26:20,638
Speaker 2: I didn't know if I was. They didn't know if

537
00:26:20,638 --> 00:26:22,638
Speaker 2: they were a high ball a low ball hitter. I mean,

538
00:26:22,678 --> 00:26:24,838
Speaker 2: these are the kind of things. Where are your strengths?

539
00:26:24,918 --> 00:26:27,998
Speaker 2: What do you do? Well, let's focus on you got

540
00:26:28,038 --> 00:26:30,718
Speaker 2: to focus and cover your strengths. Then you obviously got

541
00:26:30,718 --> 00:26:33,998
Speaker 2: to work on your weaknesses. But you whatever your strong

542
00:26:34,038 --> 00:26:36,878
Speaker 2: point is, nail that sucker down. That's the part that

543
00:26:37,358 --> 00:26:39,798
Speaker 2: should show up on a daily basis. And then while

544
00:26:39,838 --> 00:26:41,678
Speaker 2: we're doing that, we're going to try to you know,

545
00:26:41,758 --> 00:26:44,478
Speaker 2: whether it is the chasing the breaking ball down in

546
00:26:44,478 --> 00:26:47,198
Speaker 2: the way, whether it's I cannot I cannot even foul

547
00:26:47,238 --> 00:26:50,518
Speaker 2: off and elevated fastball with like say, ninety four plus

548
00:26:51,238 --> 00:26:53,398
Speaker 2: below one, I can't get to it. How do I

549
00:26:53,438 --> 00:26:56,198
Speaker 2: get to that even just to get another art form?

550
00:26:56,238 --> 00:26:58,238
Speaker 2: Get to the next pitch? How do I foul off

551
00:26:58,278 --> 00:27:00,838
Speaker 2: a pitch that I don't like because it's a strike,

552
00:27:00,918 --> 00:27:03,238
Speaker 2: but I can't do anything with it. These are the

553
00:27:03,318 --> 00:27:05,278
Speaker 2: kind of things to me that make the It's not

554
00:27:05,358 --> 00:27:09,638
Speaker 2: about charts and it's not about studying video all the time.

555
00:27:09,998 --> 00:27:11,918
Speaker 2: What am I thinking? What am I seeing? How clear

556
00:27:11,998 --> 00:27:15,558
Speaker 2: is my mind? How quickly can I react? Can I breathe?

557
00:27:15,598 --> 00:27:18,118
Speaker 2: I mean, what's my routine like? What is my process

558
00:27:18,198 --> 00:27:19,838
Speaker 2: like before I walked into the play? What am I

559
00:27:19,878 --> 00:27:21,598
Speaker 2: liking it? On deck circle? What do I do on

560
00:27:21,678 --> 00:27:24,558
Speaker 2: them in the hole? All these different things, that's to me,

561
00:27:25,438 --> 00:27:29,038
Speaker 2: the true essence of teaching hitting and guys that can hit,

562
00:27:29,078 --> 00:27:31,238
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what they're going to hit. You're not

563
00:27:31,278 --> 00:27:33,998
Speaker 2: going to make a two forty two thirty hitter into

564
00:27:33,998 --> 00:27:37,278
Speaker 2: a three hundred hitter just by having being a great teacher.

565
00:27:38,278 --> 00:27:40,278
Speaker 2: My whole point was to try to get them to

566
00:27:40,438 --> 00:27:42,638
Speaker 2: achieve the level that I thought they were capable of.

567
00:27:43,238 --> 00:27:46,638
Speaker 2: And sometimes you get lucky, and I really despise myself

568
00:27:46,918 --> 00:27:51,078
Speaker 2: when I thought I've had somebody like a really good hitter,

569
00:27:51,398 --> 00:27:52,718
Speaker 2: somebody that could be a good hitter, and we could

570
00:27:52,718 --> 00:27:55,278
Speaker 2: not make progress at all, and I could start naming them.

571
00:27:55,358 --> 00:27:59,398
Speaker 2: I'll name them to you, guys, really good, great athletes

572
00:27:59,398 --> 00:28:01,038
Speaker 2: in the minor leagues that we could just not get

573
00:28:01,118 --> 00:28:05,078
Speaker 2: by some physical maladies that got in the way. So again,

574
00:28:05,118 --> 00:28:10,118
Speaker 2: here's another long answer. But hitting is sort of complicated,

575
00:28:10,118 --> 00:28:12,318
Speaker 2: and the whole point is to simplify it and do

576
00:28:12,438 --> 00:28:14,238
Speaker 2: simple better as often as possible.

577
00:28:14,878 --> 00:28:17,198
Speaker 1: I know this is a subject that gets you excited.

578
00:28:17,718 --> 00:28:20,638
Speaker 1: I can tell. Let me give you the last six

579
00:28:20,758 --> 00:28:24,438
Speaker 1: years where the Seattle Mariners have ranked in the American

580
00:28:24,558 --> 00:28:31,118
Speaker 1: League in hitting fourteenth thirteenth, fifteenth, fourteenth, eleventh, fifteenth. Of course,

581
00:28:31,158 --> 00:28:33,478
Speaker 1: there's fifteen teams in the league, last in the league,

582
00:28:33,798 --> 00:28:35,718
Speaker 1: and every one of those years they're in the top

583
00:28:35,998 --> 00:28:40,598
Speaker 1: five in most strikeouts. Again, there's something systemic going on here.

584
00:28:40,638 --> 00:28:43,438
Speaker 1: They need to do an internal audit, whether it's teaching

585
00:28:43,438 --> 00:28:45,958
Speaker 1: in the minor league system, major league level, whatever it is.

586
00:28:47,518 --> 00:28:48,918
Speaker 1: And I think one of the things they have to

587
00:28:48,958 --> 00:28:50,718
Speaker 1: look at here, and I don't know what the answer

588
00:28:50,838 --> 00:28:54,358
Speaker 1: is to it is the ballpark. That's right, T Mobile

589
00:28:54,398 --> 00:28:57,958
Speaker 1: Park is where good hitters go bad. It's just a

590
00:28:58,158 --> 00:29:03,438
Speaker 1: fact from Richie Sex and the Adrian Beltrade that just smoke.

591
00:29:03,598 --> 00:29:09,238
Speaker 1: Shut Figgins, Sean Figgins, Jesse Winker. You know, this year

592
00:29:09,398 --> 00:29:12,918
Speaker 1: they brought in Joge Polanco and Mitch Garver. They haven't hit.

593
00:29:13,318 --> 00:29:16,158
Speaker 1: Mitch Hanniger hasn't hit. I mean, this is the team.

594
00:29:16,238 --> 00:29:20,438
Speaker 1: Last year, Joe, they get rid of Aohanneo Suarez, Jared Kilnick,

595
00:29:20,518 --> 00:29:24,038
Speaker 1: tai Oscar Hernandez because they thought they had too many

596
00:29:24,078 --> 00:29:27,118
Speaker 1: strikeouts in the lineup and they were trying to cut down. Well,

597
00:29:27,238 --> 00:29:31,518
Speaker 1: what's happened. All those guys are better having gone someplace else,

598
00:29:31,838 --> 00:29:35,398
Speaker 1: and the players like Polanco and Garver who they've brought

599
00:29:35,478 --> 00:29:38,878
Speaker 1: in have been worse as Mariners. So part of it

600
00:29:38,918 --> 00:29:41,998
Speaker 1: as the ballpark. You know, in the Wildcard era, the

601
00:29:42,038 --> 00:29:44,758
Speaker 1: batting average on balls and play in t Mobile Park

602
00:29:44,958 --> 00:29:47,598
Speaker 1: is tied with Dodger Stadium for the lowest and Major

603
00:29:47,638 --> 00:29:52,198
Speaker 1: League Baseball slugging percentage. You've got San Diego, Miami City

604
00:29:52,238 --> 00:29:55,518
Speaker 1: Field and Tea Mobile Park. I mean, it's it's rough.

605
00:29:55,678 --> 00:29:58,598
Speaker 1: There's no question there's something about that ballpark. I don't

606
00:29:58,638 --> 00:30:02,118
Speaker 1: know whether it's background lighting, cooler weather, whatever it is.

607
00:30:02,558 --> 00:30:05,278
Speaker 1: I think the Mariners ever a point where they're about

608
00:30:05,318 --> 00:30:08,958
Speaker 1: to waste again the best young pitching staff in baseball,

609
00:30:09,038 --> 00:30:10,918
Speaker 1: and you've got to do a deep dive into what

610
00:30:10,958 --> 00:30:12,318
Speaker 1: the heck is going on out there.

611
00:30:12,638 --> 00:30:14,958
Speaker 2: Well, it sounds to me they need a little whitey ball.

612
00:30:15,078 --> 00:30:18,838
Speaker 2: I mean, power is such a big part of the

613
00:30:18,878 --> 00:30:21,638
Speaker 2: world right now in baseball. And I heard a stat

614
00:30:21,758 --> 00:30:24,758
Speaker 2: I think on the Yankee broadcast about in the playoffs

615
00:30:24,838 --> 00:30:27,998
Speaker 2: how how home runs win games. So they're all they're

616
00:30:28,078 --> 00:30:30,998
Speaker 2: all vying for this. But then again, playing in Yankee

617
00:30:31,038 --> 00:30:35,078
Speaker 2: Stadium is completely different than playing at T Mobile, completely different,

618
00:30:35,118 --> 00:30:38,078
Speaker 2: like you already suggested. So they they're they're just trying

619
00:30:38,078 --> 00:30:40,238
Speaker 2: to build it with the power. Who cares about us?

620
00:30:40,518 --> 00:30:42,958
Speaker 2: And outs and out? It's it's it's classic analytics and

621
00:30:42,998 --> 00:30:45,078
Speaker 2: outs and out. Who cares? We want our guys swing

622
00:30:45,118 --> 00:30:47,958
Speaker 2: it for defenses. But what happens is the ballpark wears

623
00:30:47,998 --> 00:30:50,198
Speaker 2: you down mentally. Again, I'm gonna make the comp and golf.

624
00:30:50,238 --> 00:30:52,198
Speaker 2: I mean, I've tried to hit the ball harder, and

625
00:30:52,318 --> 00:30:54,398
Speaker 2: of course you slice it more. The swing breaks now

626
00:30:54,478 --> 00:30:56,838
Speaker 2: because or you're into the win and all of a sudden,

627
00:30:56,838 --> 00:30:58,438
Speaker 2: I got to do more, and of course you throw

628
00:30:58,438 --> 00:31:01,758
Speaker 2: a football into the wind harder, you lose your spiral.

629
00:31:02,238 --> 00:31:05,878
Speaker 2: You you try to hit a Wrigley field winds blowing in.

630
00:31:06,198 --> 00:31:08,078
Speaker 2: Of course, it's can impact you, but you're supposed to

631
00:31:08,198 --> 00:31:10,958
Speaker 2: you can't, but it does. Elements can wear you down.

632
00:31:11,078 --> 00:31:13,758
Speaker 2: They wear you down it mentally, And that's that's the

633
00:31:13,798 --> 00:31:16,198
Speaker 2: worst part about it. What's wrong with the speed and

634
00:31:16,278 --> 00:31:20,598
Speaker 2: defense attitude, especially with the way you're still on. Bases

635
00:31:20,638 --> 00:31:24,158
Speaker 2: are the part of the landscape now, and and you

636
00:31:24,198 --> 00:31:26,278
Speaker 2: know you just litter them with you litter that ball

637
00:31:26,318 --> 00:31:28,798
Speaker 2: club with some power, of course you have to, but

638
00:31:28,878 --> 00:31:31,798
Speaker 2: why not really literate with some speed and defense because

639
00:31:31,798 --> 00:31:33,358
Speaker 2: you already got the pitching to do it. You gotta

640
00:31:33,398 --> 00:31:35,518
Speaker 2: have to win two one three to two four three

641
00:31:35,638 --> 00:31:37,958
Speaker 2: one nothing With teams like that and ballparks like that,

642
00:31:38,198 --> 00:31:40,838
Speaker 2: you have to kind of settle for a different method

643
00:31:40,838 --> 00:31:44,398
Speaker 2: of place compared to what's so popular right now. So

644
00:31:44,838 --> 00:31:47,558
Speaker 2: that's it. I mean everything you're saying, what I'm hearing

645
00:31:47,558 --> 00:31:49,798
Speaker 2: when I'm looking at right now. It's kind of like

646
00:31:49,838 --> 00:31:52,398
Speaker 2: a paradigm shift in regards to how we think what

647
00:31:52,398 --> 00:31:55,438
Speaker 2: we got to do here be kind of cool. In

648
00:31:55,438 --> 00:31:58,758
Speaker 2: that ballpark, you get a bunch of Blazers and guys

649
00:31:58,758 --> 00:32:00,798
Speaker 2: that really had a new move to baseball, and then

650
00:32:00,838 --> 00:32:03,998
Speaker 2: a banger that get Jack Clark in there. Whatever, you

651
00:32:04,038 --> 00:32:06,158
Speaker 2: could have something exciting with that pitching staff.

652
00:32:06,398 --> 00:32:07,758
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if we're going all the way

653
00:32:07,758 --> 00:32:09,878
Speaker 1: back to Whitey ball. I mean, I'd love to see that,

654
00:32:09,958 --> 00:32:12,358
Speaker 1: don't get me wrong, but I still think you do

655
00:32:12,478 --> 00:32:14,998
Speaker 1: need a blend. I love what San Diego has done.

656
00:32:14,998 --> 00:32:17,838
Speaker 1: A guy like Luis o'rei is bringing him into the lineup,

657
00:32:18,318 --> 00:32:21,038
Speaker 1: and a lot of the modern day managers into analytics

658
00:32:21,038 --> 00:32:22,998
Speaker 1: don't like a guy like our eyes because he doesn't

659
00:32:23,038 --> 00:32:26,598
Speaker 1: hit for a lot of power. His skills are basically

660
00:32:26,678 --> 00:32:29,598
Speaker 1: batting average dependent. But guess what, he's great in terms

661
00:32:29,598 --> 00:32:32,078
Speaker 1: of batting average, and he's great with runners in scoring position.

662
00:32:32,198 --> 00:32:35,358
Speaker 1: And this year, Joe, I look at the Padres, I

663
00:32:35,438 --> 00:32:38,438
Speaker 1: look at the Guardians, I look at the Brewers. These

664
00:32:38,478 --> 00:32:41,918
Speaker 1: are three teams doing really well in Kansas City as well.

665
00:32:41,918 --> 00:32:44,558
Speaker 1: Throw them in there as well, with not a ton

666
00:32:44,638 --> 00:32:47,998
Speaker 1: of power, but they get a lot of hits, you know,

667
00:32:48,358 --> 00:32:50,318
Speaker 1: And again it's tough to hit in the game. We

668
00:32:50,398 --> 00:32:53,438
Speaker 1: know that batting average two forty four, but the balance

669
00:32:53,438 --> 00:32:55,798
Speaker 1: of back to ball guys and those lineups, to me,

670
00:32:55,998 --> 00:32:57,918
Speaker 1: is why those teams are winning. And if you're the

671
00:32:57,958 --> 00:33:00,518
Speaker 1: Seattle Mariners and you're banking on hitting the ball out

672
00:33:00,558 --> 00:33:03,198
Speaker 1: of the park and that means you're going to sacrifice

673
00:33:03,198 --> 00:33:05,718
Speaker 1: a lot of swinging, you're doing that in the absolute

674
00:33:05,758 --> 00:33:10,558
Speaker 1: wrong ballpark. So something has to change here. And to me,

675
00:33:10,798 --> 00:33:14,318
Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. The Mariners have to identify players who

676
00:33:14,358 --> 00:33:17,118
Speaker 1: have better back to ball skills, simple as that, and

677
00:33:17,198 --> 00:33:18,038
Speaker 1: emphasize that.

678
00:33:18,398 --> 00:33:20,998
Speaker 2: Totally agree. I mean again, you're looking at that ballpark.

679
00:33:21,038 --> 00:33:22,558
Speaker 2: Kind have had a great thought and it's just when

680
00:33:22,598 --> 00:33:25,798
Speaker 2: will you're talking the defense and whatever, but yes, in

681
00:33:25,838 --> 00:33:29,438
Speaker 2: that Seattle yard, it would be so interesting to build

682
00:33:29,478 --> 00:33:32,158
Speaker 2: a team around with that ballpark is because it's it's

683
00:33:32,198 --> 00:33:34,118
Speaker 2: not going away. Oh yeah, who's the top home run

684
00:33:34,198 --> 00:33:37,038
Speaker 2: hitter for the Mariners? Is that Rodriguez should be?

685
00:33:37,078 --> 00:33:38,798
Speaker 1: He hasn't hit many this year, but yet.

686
00:33:38,678 --> 00:33:40,478
Speaker 2: But what did he have last year? As an example,

687
00:33:40,518 --> 00:33:42,038
Speaker 2: what it was? What was the big number? Was it

688
00:33:42,078 --> 00:33:44,158
Speaker 2: thirty last year? Maybe twenty five?

689
00:33:45,118 --> 00:33:47,238
Speaker 1: Yeah, wasn't he almost a thirty thirty guy?

690
00:33:47,638 --> 00:33:50,798
Speaker 2: Okay, okay, so hit thirty home runs, that's nice, But

691
00:33:50,838 --> 00:33:52,478
Speaker 2: what did he do with the other five hundred and

692
00:33:52,558 --> 00:33:55,478
Speaker 2: eighty at bats that he had played appearances, what happens

693
00:33:55,638 --> 00:33:56,358
Speaker 2: he was those.

694
00:33:56,158 --> 00:33:58,878
Speaker 1: Thirty thirty guy Just to clear that up, thirty two

695
00:33:58,918 --> 00:34:01,358
Speaker 1: homers and thirty seven stolen bases. This year he's down

696
00:34:01,398 --> 00:34:02,438
Speaker 1: to eleven.

697
00:34:02,758 --> 00:34:04,918
Speaker 2: So why is it? So? Is it not important? What

698
00:34:04,918 --> 00:34:07,118
Speaker 2: do you do with those other played appearances like which

699
00:34:07,118 --> 00:34:09,238
Speaker 2: are a lot? I mean, I know the home run

700
00:34:09,238 --> 00:34:10,638
Speaker 2: could change the game in a moment, but if you

701
00:34:10,718 --> 00:34:12,918
Speaker 2: have a bunch of guys that just don't throw away

702
00:34:12,958 --> 00:34:15,638
Speaker 2: plate appearances and really make pitchers work and know how

703
00:34:15,638 --> 00:34:17,118
Speaker 2: to get on base, and know how to run the

704
00:34:17,118 --> 00:34:19,398
Speaker 2: bases and know how to run fast and all these

705
00:34:19,398 --> 00:34:22,038
Speaker 2: different things, at some point, isn't there, like again, a

706
00:34:22,078 --> 00:34:26,478
Speaker 2: sliding scale somehow that the speed and defense comes together

707
00:34:26,678 --> 00:34:29,158
Speaker 2: and kind of mitigates the lack of power and you're

708
00:34:29,158 --> 00:34:31,438
Speaker 2: still getting the results you're looking for because the ballpark

709
00:34:31,478 --> 00:34:32,678
Speaker 2: doesn't permit something like this.

710
00:34:33,078 --> 00:34:35,478
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, to your point, Joe, he struck out one

711
00:34:35,598 --> 00:34:38,238
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy five times last year, right, and this

712
00:34:38,278 --> 00:34:39,998
Speaker 1: is a guy who can run. If he puts the

713
00:34:39,998 --> 00:34:41,678
Speaker 1: ball on the ground, he's got a chance of being

714
00:34:41,678 --> 00:34:42,078
Speaker 1: on base.

715
00:34:42,278 --> 00:34:45,078
Speaker 2: Right, So he hits thirty thirty home runs, Great, and

716
00:34:45,158 --> 00:34:47,278
Speaker 2: yet one hundred and seventy five times the ball never

717
00:34:47,358 --> 00:34:48,758
Speaker 2: left the bat and never even had a chance to

718
00:34:48,798 --> 00:34:51,198
Speaker 2: run the first base. Why is that not I don't

719
00:34:51,278 --> 00:34:52,678
Speaker 2: understand why that's not important.

720
00:34:52,678 --> 00:34:55,358
Speaker 1: Also, well, it's one of the great mysteries of the

721
00:34:55,358 --> 00:34:59,238
Speaker 1: modern era, Joe, is that these teams all want strikeouts

722
00:34:59,238 --> 00:35:01,598
Speaker 1: and swing a miss on the mound, but yet they

723
00:35:01,638 --> 00:35:03,478
Speaker 1: excuse it on the offensive side.

724
00:35:04,118 --> 00:35:07,558
Speaker 2: That's great, terms, that's you're right on the money there, buddy.

725
00:35:09,038 --> 00:35:11,758
Speaker 1: Hey, as long as we're talking hitting, and we've got

726
00:35:11,758 --> 00:35:14,998
Speaker 1: a good theme going here about hitting on this podcast episode,

727
00:35:15,158 --> 00:35:17,038
Speaker 1: we're going to take a break and we come back.

728
00:35:17,598 --> 00:35:20,958
Speaker 1: Did you know that this is the most dangerous era

729
00:35:21,318 --> 00:35:24,878
Speaker 1: in which to hit? Just ask Austin Riley of the Braves.

730
00:35:24,918 --> 00:35:40,678
Speaker 1: We're going to talk about that right after this, Joe.

731
00:35:40,678 --> 00:35:43,758
Speaker 1: We were talking about hitting in the game today and

732
00:35:43,838 --> 00:35:46,918
Speaker 1: swing and miss and power. But there's another component like

733
00:35:47,078 --> 00:35:49,358
Speaker 1: we're seeing at a level we have never seen before,

734
00:35:49,398 --> 00:35:51,878
Speaker 1: and that is the hit by pitch. I'm going to

735
00:35:51,958 --> 00:35:55,438
Speaker 1: give you the five highest hit by pitch rates in

736
00:35:55,518 --> 00:35:59,678
Speaker 1: the last one hundred and twenty five seasons since nineteen hundred,

737
00:36:00,478 --> 00:36:06,518
Speaker 1: twenty twenty twenty twenty three. One twenty twenty four. In

738
00:36:06,558 --> 00:36:09,638
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, I think he picked up a pattern there. Yeah,

739
00:36:09,678 --> 00:36:12,878
Speaker 1: the last five years the worst years ever as a

740
00:36:12,958 --> 00:36:16,718
Speaker 1: hitter in terms of getting hit with pitches. And I

741
00:36:16,798 --> 00:36:20,638
Speaker 1: mentioned Austin Riley out six to eight weeks basically the

742
00:36:20,638 --> 00:36:23,998
Speaker 1: rest of the regular season, and he got hit with

743
00:36:23,998 --> 00:36:28,038
Speaker 1: a fastball at Angel Stadium, Joe, where he actually was

744
00:36:28,158 --> 00:36:30,918
Speaker 1: starting to swing the bat. I know people want to

745
00:36:30,958 --> 00:36:32,958
Speaker 1: blame pitchers all the time, but in the velocity of

746
00:36:32,998 --> 00:36:34,878
Speaker 1: the game today, the way hitters have to get started,

747
00:36:34,918 --> 00:36:37,238
Speaker 1: his hands in the now of the bat were literally

748
00:36:37,438 --> 00:36:41,358
Speaker 1: moving towards the baseball and he got hit on the

749
00:36:41,478 --> 00:36:45,518
Speaker 1: right hand as he was starting to check his swing,

750
00:36:45,998 --> 00:36:47,798
Speaker 1: where so his hands are a little bit away from

751
00:36:47,798 --> 00:36:49,678
Speaker 1: his body. Was the pitch in, Yeah it was in,

752
00:36:49,838 --> 00:36:52,638
Speaker 1: but it wasn't at his body. He actually got hit

753
00:36:53,038 --> 00:36:55,518
Speaker 1: in the course of swinging the bat. And that's not

754
00:36:55,598 --> 00:36:59,918
Speaker 1: unusual in today's game. So I know everybody wants to say, oh, pitchers,

755
00:36:59,998 --> 00:37:02,718
Speaker 1: they get rushed to the major leagues, they can't command

756
00:37:02,798 --> 00:37:05,318
Speaker 1: the baseball. Well, how about what's going on with hitting

757
00:37:05,358 --> 00:37:05,758
Speaker 1: as well?

758
00:37:06,278 --> 00:37:08,998
Speaker 2: Yes, a combination, absolutely, it is. You're right, you have

759
00:37:09,038 --> 00:37:11,478
Speaker 2: to cheat to get to those fastballs, and you know,

760
00:37:11,638 --> 00:37:13,558
Speaker 2: hitters want to know how hard is he thrown and

761
00:37:13,598 --> 00:37:15,318
Speaker 2: they can see it on the board because they have

762
00:37:15,398 --> 00:37:17,318
Speaker 2: like this little internal clock. What it means to them

763
00:37:17,398 --> 00:37:19,358
Speaker 2: regards to how they have to get started or when

764
00:37:19,358 --> 00:37:22,038
Speaker 2: they have to get started to catch up. And that's

765
00:37:22,078 --> 00:37:24,278
Speaker 2: a big part of why breaking balls are swung and missed.

766
00:37:24,318 --> 00:37:26,958
Speaker 2: That because you have to cheat to get to the fastball.

767
00:37:27,158 --> 00:37:29,358
Speaker 2: So you're starting earlier, you're going to get filled by

768
00:37:29,398 --> 00:37:31,318
Speaker 2: the breaking ball more often, you're going to chase more often.

769
00:37:31,358 --> 00:37:36,158
Speaker 2: There's all these different Wow, it's all interconnected regarding all

770
00:37:36,198 --> 00:37:38,798
Speaker 2: that stuff. So yeah, it's pitchers trying to spin the

771
00:37:38,838 --> 00:37:41,798
Speaker 2: ball and again not necessarily pitch and throw it as

772
00:37:41,798 --> 00:37:43,678
Speaker 2: hard as they can, which is going to lead to

773
00:37:43,718 --> 00:37:45,798
Speaker 2: less control. Because I'm telling you, man, when you talk

774
00:37:45,838 --> 00:37:48,198
Speaker 2: about pitching around a hitter, I never even wanted my

775
00:37:48,278 --> 00:37:51,838
Speaker 2: guys to do it, unless like Kyle Hendricks Johnny Lester could.

776
00:37:51,838 --> 00:37:54,078
Speaker 2: But in today's game, you don't see many guys that

777
00:37:54,438 --> 00:37:57,598
Speaker 2: you could trust pitching around a hitter because they don't

778
00:37:57,598 --> 00:38:00,398
Speaker 2: command the ball enough to pitch around the hitter. Number eight.

779
00:38:00,438 --> 00:38:02,238
Speaker 2: That's A and then B would be when you talk

780
00:38:02,278 --> 00:38:05,718
Speaker 2: about the hitters contributing to be to being hit by pitches.

781
00:38:05,758 --> 00:38:08,358
Speaker 2: It's because they have to get started so soon. And

782
00:38:08,398 --> 00:38:09,998
Speaker 2: then you want to know why breaking balls are so

783
00:38:09,998 --> 00:38:12,478
Speaker 2: effective because hitters have to get started so soon. You've

784
00:38:12,518 --> 00:38:15,198
Speaker 2: mentioned Judge earlier, and the thing I love about that,

785
00:38:15,238 --> 00:38:17,918
Speaker 2: and I think Kevin Long teaches this and I think

786
00:38:17,918 --> 00:38:23,598
Speaker 2: it's absolutely correct. Quiet, quiet on the set, Quiet on

787
00:38:23,678 --> 00:38:26,798
Speaker 2: the set. He did that with Granderson when he came

788
00:38:26,838 --> 00:38:29,598
Speaker 2: to the Yankees years ago, and Curtis Granderson went off

789
00:38:29,678 --> 00:38:32,918
Speaker 2: just by getting quiet in his setup. Judges, he's almost

790
00:38:33,038 --> 00:38:35,638
Speaker 2: like he's like almost like a statue when he's standing

791
00:38:35,718 --> 00:38:38,878
Speaker 2: up there. Joe Demagio was, Paul Molatour was, a lot

792
00:38:38,878 --> 00:38:42,398
Speaker 2: of these guys are really quiet. He's quiet. And my

793
00:38:42,438 --> 00:38:45,598
Speaker 2: point is, I think when you're that quiet, you are

794
00:38:45,878 --> 00:38:47,198
Speaker 2: just going to see the ball and you have a

795
00:38:47,278 --> 00:38:50,638
Speaker 2: chance probably to wait a little bit longer. With a

796
00:38:50,678 --> 00:38:54,758
Speaker 2: lot of pre pitch movement, a lot of jiggling, going around, swaying, whatever,

797
00:38:55,518 --> 00:38:58,638
Speaker 2: it's more difficult that the timing patterns. A high leg

798
00:38:58,638 --> 00:39:01,358
Speaker 2: you see zach Netto with the Angels has gotten a

799
00:39:01,398 --> 00:39:03,598
Speaker 2: lot better since that front foot's not coming up nearly

800
00:39:03,598 --> 00:39:07,318
Speaker 2: as high. These timing mechanisms make it difficult. So the

801
00:39:07,398 --> 00:39:10,158
Speaker 2: more quiet you can be in your setup, the better

802
00:39:10,238 --> 00:39:14,758
Speaker 2: chance you have to recognize the pitch ab stay back

803
00:39:15,158 --> 00:39:18,478
Speaker 2: and not have to commit so soon and cheat because

804
00:39:19,038 --> 00:39:21,238
Speaker 2: your body's not moving all over the place. You always

805
00:39:21,278 --> 00:39:23,278
Speaker 2: know where your hands are, you know where your head

806
00:39:23,358 --> 00:39:25,278
Speaker 2: is at, you know where your front foot is, and

807
00:39:25,318 --> 00:39:27,118
Speaker 2: you know you get your front foot down quickly. And

808
00:39:27,158 --> 00:39:29,358
Speaker 2: that's the other part about its rights I just mentioned

809
00:39:29,398 --> 00:39:32,278
Speaker 2: with Zach. The big thing about hitting and hitting velocity

810
00:39:32,318 --> 00:39:34,518
Speaker 2: is making sure that left foot's on the ground. Talking

811
00:39:34,518 --> 00:39:36,558
Speaker 2: about right handed hitter, get that foot down, get that

812
00:39:36,558 --> 00:39:39,918
Speaker 2: foot down, get that foot down. It's so important Judge's

813
00:39:39,958 --> 00:39:43,638
Speaker 2: foots down. And that's why this guy he's seeing it well,

814
00:39:43,878 --> 00:39:48,638
Speaker 2: he's not getting fulled and like any young kid is listening.

815
00:39:48,718 --> 00:39:50,798
Speaker 2: The more you can learn to be quiet and your setup,

816
00:39:51,318 --> 00:39:53,518
Speaker 2: I think, the more successful you're going to be as

817
00:39:53,558 --> 00:39:56,238
Speaker 2: a hitter with all this velocity and breaking stuff being

818
00:39:56,238 --> 00:39:56,798
Speaker 2: thrown at you.

819
00:39:57,118 --> 00:39:59,158
Speaker 1: And by the way, Judge has been hit by pitches

820
00:39:59,638 --> 00:40:02,958
Speaker 1: nine times this year. That's a career high. And you

821
00:40:02,998 --> 00:40:07,518
Speaker 1: know what I see overall is the right on, right

822
00:40:07,598 --> 00:40:11,798
Speaker 1: right handed pitcher, right handed hitter, hard sinker In has

823
00:40:11,838 --> 00:40:15,558
Speaker 1: really gained him popularity. And we talk about a lot

824
00:40:15,598 --> 00:40:18,798
Speaker 1: of spin, but that two steamer on the hands of hitters.

825
00:40:19,358 --> 00:40:22,238
Speaker 1: You see a lot of pictures now adopting that pitch,

826
00:40:22,638 --> 00:40:24,758
Speaker 1: and that had been the book on Judge. I think

827
00:40:24,758 --> 00:40:26,958
Speaker 1: he's really closed just about every hole that he had,

828
00:40:27,038 --> 00:40:30,838
Speaker 1: especially velocity in he'll either take that or he'll ram

829
00:40:30,838 --> 00:40:32,558
Speaker 1: it out of the ballpark to the pole side. He's

830
00:40:32,598 --> 00:40:35,278
Speaker 1: not just a guy who's shooting those things that to

831
00:40:35,318 --> 00:40:38,478
Speaker 1: the right center field bleachers at Yankee Stadium. He's become

832
00:40:38,718 --> 00:40:41,398
Speaker 1: a much better poll hitter in the last three four years.

833
00:40:42,678 --> 00:40:44,798
Speaker 1: But I do see a lot of that Joe the

834
00:40:44,878 --> 00:40:49,118
Speaker 1: same sided pitcher to hitter going in with Sinkers and

835
00:40:49,158 --> 00:40:52,278
Speaker 1: they're told, get this all the way in. And that's

836
00:40:52,318 --> 00:40:55,078
Speaker 1: why you're seeing like an Austin Riley, where that pitch

837
00:40:55,198 --> 00:40:58,118
Speaker 1: is boring in on that right handed hitter and from

838
00:40:58,158 --> 00:41:00,598
Speaker 1: a right handed pitcher, and he has to get started

839
00:41:00,638 --> 00:41:04,078
Speaker 1: because it's elite velocity and it just keeps coming in.

840
00:41:04,198 --> 00:41:06,638
Speaker 1: And that's where you're seeing these broken bones.

841
00:41:07,278 --> 00:41:11,198
Speaker 2: That's the compliment to the formerly just the elevated fastball

842
00:41:11,238 --> 00:41:14,918
Speaker 2: spin spin spin. Hitters started to adapt to that a

843
00:41:14,918 --> 00:41:16,998
Speaker 2: little bit, and a part of that is when you throw,

844
00:41:17,518 --> 00:41:19,358
Speaker 2: when you're going to approach that pitch, of course, it's

845
00:41:19,358 --> 00:41:22,158
Speaker 2: more of a flat swing. They've been teaching, like you know,

846
00:41:22,198 --> 00:41:24,118
Speaker 2: the upper cut. It's become a little bit more flat

847
00:41:24,198 --> 00:41:26,998
Speaker 2: now because of trying to catch up the velocity. Whenever

848
00:41:27,038 --> 00:41:29,078
Speaker 2: you have a flatter swing coming through the strike zone,

849
00:41:29,078 --> 00:41:32,398
Speaker 2: you're always susceptible underneath. Underneath that would be a breaking

850
00:41:32,438 --> 00:41:34,518
Speaker 2: ball left, the breaking ball underneath the right handed hitter,

851
00:41:34,598 --> 00:41:37,318
Speaker 2: meaning under his belt, right at his back, near back

852
00:41:37,358 --> 00:41:41,238
Speaker 2: foot slider or sinker or change up from the right

853
00:41:41,278 --> 00:41:46,278
Speaker 2: handed pitcher. James Shields outstanding, Alex Kabb outstanding at throwing

854
00:41:46,318 --> 00:41:49,718
Speaker 2: that change up or that split underneath the right handed

855
00:41:49,758 --> 00:41:53,598
Speaker 2: hitter right on right. Anytime identify a hitter with a

856
00:41:53,998 --> 00:41:57,598
Speaker 2: kind of a flat swing, he normally is susceptible underneath.

857
00:41:57,958 --> 00:42:00,278
Speaker 2: Whether like I said, it's a lefty willing to do

858
00:42:00,318 --> 00:42:03,558
Speaker 2: the sinker into a lefty or a righty cutting the

859
00:42:03,558 --> 00:42:09,638
Speaker 2: ball underneath him, he succeptible. Tino Martinez really good high ball,

860
00:42:09,718 --> 00:42:11,838
Speaker 2: fastball hitter for a left end hitter back in the day.

861
00:42:12,518 --> 00:42:15,518
Speaker 2: At that time, left these were pretty much a lot

862
00:42:15,558 --> 00:42:18,198
Speaker 2: better at balls down in the zone in just based

863
00:42:18,238 --> 00:42:20,678
Speaker 2: on how the game had been taught, so you'd get

864
00:42:20,798 --> 00:42:23,478
Speaker 2: underneath Tino. So these are the things I look at.

865
00:42:23,678 --> 00:42:25,398
Speaker 2: When I look at a hitter. You look at his

866
00:42:25,518 --> 00:42:28,318
Speaker 2: bad angle and how he likes to approach the strike zone,

867
00:42:28,318 --> 00:42:30,638
Speaker 2: and from that you could find your spots. I know,

868
00:42:31,318 --> 00:42:34,878
Speaker 2: video and all the information could indicate that for you,

869
00:42:34,918 --> 00:42:37,758
Speaker 2: but just the eyeball test. I used to have all

870
00:42:37,798 --> 00:42:40,358
Speaker 2: the balls in play, all the outs, the final pitch

871
00:42:40,398 --> 00:42:43,398
Speaker 2: of it at bat Diego with the Angels would do

872
00:42:43,398 --> 00:42:46,278
Speaker 2: that for me. I just wanted the action pitch. I

873
00:42:46,278 --> 00:42:48,678
Speaker 2: got that from mister pole Dick Poll, the pitching coach,

874
00:42:48,958 --> 00:42:50,958
Speaker 2: And all I'm looking is I was setting up defenses.

875
00:42:51,038 --> 00:42:53,438
Speaker 2: I wanted to see bad angle. I wanted to see

876
00:42:53,478 --> 00:42:56,038
Speaker 2: bad angle in regards to where I wanted to set

877
00:42:56,078 --> 00:42:58,238
Speaker 2: up my defense. They didn't have all the abilities that

878
00:42:58,238 --> 00:43:01,678
Speaker 2: we have now, so my very rudimentary spray charts. But

879
00:43:01,718 --> 00:43:03,958
Speaker 2: then I wanted to see how the bat came in

880
00:43:03,958 --> 00:43:05,838
Speaker 2: into the strike zone and from that then you could

881
00:43:05,838 --> 00:43:08,278
Speaker 2: also determine where I want to pitch to this guy

882
00:43:08,318 --> 00:43:10,678
Speaker 2: if I need the strikeout too. So these are the

883
00:43:10,758 --> 00:43:13,678
Speaker 2: kind of things that analytics looks at. These are the

884
00:43:13,718 --> 00:43:16,398
Speaker 2: kind of things we looked at for years just by

885
00:43:16,518 --> 00:43:19,198
Speaker 2: using the eyeball. So that's what you're seeing. You're seeing

886
00:43:19,518 --> 00:43:23,118
Speaker 2: underneath the susceptible. And last point, I think it has

887
00:43:23,158 --> 00:43:25,638
Speaker 2: something to do with it. The pictures are okay with

888
00:43:25,678 --> 00:43:27,238
Speaker 2: all of this because a lot of these guys are

889
00:43:27,238 --> 00:43:29,638
Speaker 2: wearing a lot of gear, so they you know, they're

890
00:43:29,918 --> 00:43:32,598
Speaker 2: more comfortable throwing in feeling that they're not going to

891
00:43:32,678 --> 00:43:36,038
Speaker 2: hurt them. You're not going to hit somebody. Excuse me,

892
00:43:36,038 --> 00:43:38,318
Speaker 2: if you do hit somebody, they're not going to necessarily

893
00:43:38,358 --> 00:43:40,518
Speaker 2: get hurt badly. Although it did happen with Riley, But

894
00:43:40,558 --> 00:43:43,838
Speaker 2: I think the protective gear gives like the pictures more

895
00:43:43,918 --> 00:43:46,918
Speaker 2: I want to say, open target, but are free will

896
00:43:46,958 --> 00:43:49,398
Speaker 2: of doing this thinking that even if I do hit him,

897
00:43:49,398 --> 00:43:50,198
Speaker 2: I'm not going to hurt him.

898
00:43:50,358 --> 00:43:52,438
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. It's a good point. I had not

899
00:43:52,518 --> 00:43:54,518
Speaker 1: thought of it about that, but that could definitely be

900
00:43:54,638 --> 00:43:57,798
Speaker 1: in play. I think it's way too easy to blame

901
00:43:57,838 --> 00:44:00,358
Speaker 1: it on you know, pictures have a lack of command.

902
00:44:00,478 --> 00:44:02,478
Speaker 1: First of all, it's not true the walk rate is

903
00:44:02,518 --> 00:44:05,638
Speaker 1: actually down, the strike rate is up. You know, pictures.

904
00:44:06,358 --> 00:44:09,358
Speaker 1: You can't blame it on just this general lack of command,

905
00:44:09,398 --> 00:44:11,918
Speaker 1: because the numbers just don't show lack of command. What

906
00:44:11,998 --> 00:44:13,958
Speaker 1: I see, Joe, is what you talked about here is

907
00:44:14,998 --> 00:44:19,078
Speaker 1: pitchers are taught when they were making pitches. Obviously they

908
00:44:19,118 --> 00:44:21,998
Speaker 1: want those ball strike to ball pitches that run out

909
00:44:21,998 --> 00:44:24,358
Speaker 1: of the zone. Get it all the way in. If

910
00:44:24,398 --> 00:44:26,278
Speaker 1: you're going to miss, miss all the way in, and

911
00:44:26,278 --> 00:44:28,678
Speaker 1: if you hit a guy, that's okay. And maybe the

912
00:44:28,838 --> 00:44:30,918
Speaker 1: armor that guys are wearing is part of that. But

913
00:44:30,958 --> 00:44:34,478
Speaker 1: that's what I say is as pitchers are intentionally running

914
00:44:34,478 --> 00:44:37,118
Speaker 1: those pitches with tremendous amount of movement. You know, when

915
00:44:37,158 --> 00:44:39,758
Speaker 1: we talk about spin rates going up and velocity going out,

916
00:44:39,838 --> 00:44:43,278
Speaker 1: remember velocity's gone up on breaking pitches as well. So

917
00:44:43,358 --> 00:44:45,838
Speaker 1: whether it's a cutter or a slider, I mean, everything's

918
00:44:45,878 --> 00:44:49,118
Speaker 1: moving harder and faster and more than it did in

919
00:44:49,118 --> 00:44:52,598
Speaker 1: the past. So I don't blame it on pitchers lack

920
00:44:52,638 --> 00:44:54,918
Speaker 1: of command. Here's a question for you, Joe, of all

921
00:44:54,918 --> 00:44:58,038
Speaker 1: the hit by pitches, what percentage do you think come

922
00:44:58,198 --> 00:44:59,398
Speaker 1: off of fastballs.

923
00:44:59,758 --> 00:45:02,758
Speaker 2: Well, I say it's less than fifty and the breaking

924
00:45:02,798 --> 00:45:05,198
Speaker 2: balls are exceed that off speed pitches.

925
00:45:05,478 --> 00:45:08,478
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is where I'm getting back to these two

926
00:45:08,518 --> 00:45:11,518
Speaker 1: seam are coming back in right on right, left on left,

927
00:45:11,638 --> 00:45:15,958
Speaker 1: running in. Sixty percent of hit by pitches are from fastballs. Okay,

928
00:45:16,238 --> 00:45:19,598
Speaker 1: thirty three percent are from breaking balls and seven percent

929
00:45:19,718 --> 00:45:23,038
Speaker 1: off speed. Now, I guarantee you the majority of broken

930
00:45:23,038 --> 00:45:26,038
Speaker 1: bones are coming from fastballs. The fastball is generally going

931
00:45:26,078 --> 00:45:29,918
Speaker 1: to be elevated around the hands area. Breaking balls generally

932
00:45:29,918 --> 00:45:32,038
Speaker 1: are going to be down. You're talking about back foot

933
00:45:32,118 --> 00:45:36,078
Speaker 1: breaking balls hitting a lot of guys. But yeah, sixty percent. Now,

934
00:45:36,958 --> 00:45:40,558
Speaker 1: so most of the hit by pitches do come from fastballs,

935
00:45:40,598 --> 00:45:43,158
Speaker 1: and I would think most of those come from same

936
00:45:43,198 --> 00:45:46,198
Speaker 1: sided pitchers, same sided hitter, right on right, left on left.

937
00:45:46,958 --> 00:45:48,958
Speaker 2: As you're saying that, you're counting, yeah, the two seam,

938
00:45:49,078 --> 00:45:51,558
Speaker 2: the proliferation of the two seam, I get that. It

939
00:45:51,598 --> 00:45:54,038
Speaker 2: makes all the sense. And you're right. If you're going

940
00:45:54,078 --> 00:45:55,438
Speaker 2: to get in there, go all the way in there.

941
00:45:55,478 --> 00:45:57,438
Speaker 2: That's that's exactly what they're going to hear in the meeting.

942
00:45:57,478 --> 00:46:00,518
Speaker 2: Get in there. And the other part is the elevated in.

943
00:46:01,238 --> 00:46:04,558
Speaker 2: Elevated in is a really dynamic pitch. If you know

944
00:46:04,598 --> 00:46:07,318
Speaker 2: how to execute it. Nobody can hit it. If elevated

945
00:46:07,358 --> 00:46:11,838
Speaker 2: in strike is impossible, it's impossible. I like elevated in

946
00:46:12,038 --> 00:46:14,478
Speaker 2: cutter to the opposite side. Also, like if you're ready

947
00:46:14,558 --> 00:46:17,398
Speaker 2: thrown to a lefty to cut the ball elevated in

948
00:46:17,638 --> 00:46:19,518
Speaker 2: from a righty to a lefty, impossible.

949
00:46:19,638 --> 00:46:22,198
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's Nesther Cortez. He's as good as anybody on

950
00:46:22,198 --> 00:46:22,638
Speaker 1: that pitch.

951
00:46:22,758 --> 00:46:25,038
Speaker 2: It's so hard to get the barrel of any kind.

952
00:46:25,318 --> 00:46:28,598
Speaker 2: That's you're gonna expose, expose the weak part of the bat.

953
00:46:28,598 --> 00:46:30,278
Speaker 2: You're always trying to get to the weak part of

954
00:46:30,318 --> 00:46:32,438
Speaker 2: the bat. That's what I would tell my guys as

955
00:46:32,438 --> 00:46:34,438
Speaker 2: you're trying to shape your pitch, get to your pitch.

956
00:46:34,718 --> 00:46:37,598
Speaker 2: You're trying to get this ball to get to the

957
00:46:37,598 --> 00:46:39,558
Speaker 2: weak part of the bat of the hitter. You want

958
00:46:39,598 --> 00:46:42,118
Speaker 2: to stay away from the strong part. And that's the

959
00:46:42,158 --> 00:46:44,518
Speaker 2: shape of the pitch. That's what we're talking about. So

960
00:46:44,598 --> 00:46:46,238
Speaker 2: I do love it. I love the I love the

961
00:46:46,358 --> 00:46:50,398
Speaker 2: elevated end to the opposite side cutter. And then of

962
00:46:50,438 --> 00:46:53,318
Speaker 2: course the two or two seamer. This even a good

963
00:46:53,318 --> 00:46:57,038
Speaker 2: four seamer elevated in strike not to buzz the tower

964
00:46:57,438 --> 00:47:00,758
Speaker 2: elevated in strike really hard to do anything with and

965
00:47:00,758 --> 00:47:03,238
Speaker 2: it takes some really good command to do that and

966
00:47:03,278 --> 00:47:06,038
Speaker 2: trust yourself, because yeah, there is you know there is

967
00:47:06,078 --> 00:47:08,358
Speaker 2: that thing you don't want anybody in the head. Nobody

968
00:47:08,398 --> 00:47:10,358
Speaker 2: wants anybody in the head or to the face, but

969
00:47:10,518 --> 00:47:13,398
Speaker 2: elevated in as a really good spot to go to

970
00:47:13,438 --> 00:47:14,918
Speaker 2: get a major legue hitter out.

971
00:47:15,318 --> 00:47:18,198
Speaker 1: Just to wrap this conversation on the way pitching has changed,

972
00:47:18,198 --> 00:47:20,358
Speaker 1: if I could pitch a guy to me who typifies

973
00:47:20,718 --> 00:47:23,638
Speaker 1: what pitchers do these days, it's Zach Wheeler. The Philadelphia

974
00:47:23,678 --> 00:47:26,358
Speaker 1: Phillies love watching him pitch. This is a guy who

975
00:47:26,438 --> 00:47:29,998
Speaker 1: three years ago added a cutter. This year he added

976
00:47:29,998 --> 00:47:33,478
Speaker 1: a splitter, and he's always had that great four seam fastball.

977
00:47:33,838 --> 00:47:35,998
Speaker 1: He's always looking to get better. So now what he

978
00:47:36,078 --> 00:47:38,558
Speaker 1: does is you think about the ball coming in towards

979
00:47:38,558 --> 00:47:41,118
Speaker 1: the plate. He can move the ball from his right

980
00:47:41,158 --> 00:47:44,838
Speaker 1: to his left to glove side with breaking balls. I'm

981
00:47:44,838 --> 00:47:49,958
Speaker 1: talking about sliders, curveballs, count the cutter on that. He's

982
00:47:49,998 --> 00:47:51,998
Speaker 1: got the four seamer that's up, and now he can

983
00:47:52,038 --> 00:47:54,758
Speaker 1: move the ball left to right, the opposite direction with

984
00:47:54,878 --> 00:47:57,678
Speaker 1: that two seamer in, and he can also go down

985
00:47:57,718 --> 00:47:59,758
Speaker 1: to the bottom of the zone with a split. So

986
00:47:59,838 --> 00:48:02,478
Speaker 1: he's got pitches that go east and west, west to east,

987
00:48:02,638 --> 00:48:05,038
Speaker 1: and the pitches that go north and pitches that go south.

988
00:48:05,558 --> 00:48:07,038
Speaker 1: I mean, what are you going to do if you're

989
00:48:07,038 --> 00:48:09,038
Speaker 1: a hitter to prepare it. It's a reason why he

990
00:48:09,158 --> 00:48:11,318
Speaker 1: is the best pitcher in baseball when it comes to

991
00:48:11,758 --> 00:48:14,558
Speaker 1: limiting damage on two strikes. He's the toughest picture to

992
00:48:14,598 --> 00:48:18,038
Speaker 1: face with two strikes because it's a multiple choice question

993
00:48:18,358 --> 00:48:21,278
Speaker 1: and chances are you are going to be wrong guessing

994
00:48:21,278 --> 00:48:21,998
Speaker 1: which one's coming.

995
00:48:22,398 --> 00:48:24,438
Speaker 2: He was one of my favorite. He was might have been.

996
00:48:24,478 --> 00:48:27,278
Speaker 2: It was he came out there, Cole came out, you know,

997
00:48:27,318 --> 00:48:31,358
Speaker 2: a free agent, and I really my suggestion, strategy wise,

998
00:48:31,438 --> 00:48:34,078
Speaker 2: was the best way to have Garrett Cole consider signing

999
00:48:34,078 --> 00:48:36,158
Speaker 2: with the Angels would be to sign Zach Wheeler first,

1000
00:48:36,638 --> 00:48:39,558
Speaker 2: to indicate the attempt to win and to improve the

1001
00:48:39,598 --> 00:48:42,678
Speaker 2: pitching out there. When I first got there as a manager,

1002
00:48:42,958 --> 00:48:45,278
Speaker 2: he was my favorite. I was my favorite when he

1003
00:48:45,318 --> 00:48:47,238
Speaker 2: was with the Mets. Well, of course the Grom, but

1004
00:48:47,278 --> 00:48:50,438
Speaker 2: I thought he was like, if you like Jacob de Grom,

1005
00:48:50,478 --> 00:48:52,678
Speaker 2: you got a life like Zach Wheeler too. Deliverately, the

1006
00:48:52,718 --> 00:48:54,718
Speaker 2: way the ball came out of the hand, Toway carried

1007
00:48:55,158 --> 00:48:57,358
Speaker 2: all that kind of stuff. It was there's not a

1008
00:48:57,438 --> 00:48:59,998
Speaker 2: huge separation between those two guys. I thought when I

1009
00:48:59,998 --> 00:49:02,998
Speaker 2: first saw both of them. So I'm happy for a success.

1010
00:49:02,998 --> 00:49:05,878
Speaker 2: He's a really wonderful young man. He does he competes.

1011
00:49:06,278 --> 00:49:07,998
Speaker 2: The problem of the concern at that point was he

1012
00:49:07,998 --> 00:49:09,758
Speaker 2: had been injured a little bit. He's really gotten that

1013
00:49:09,838 --> 00:49:12,478
Speaker 2: under control. I'm really happy for his success. I actually

1014
00:49:12,518 --> 00:49:14,718
Speaker 2: went to his house in Georgia to visit on a

1015
00:49:14,758 --> 00:49:19,398
Speaker 2: recruiting trip. Doesn't surprise me. He is that good. It's

1016
00:49:19,478 --> 00:49:21,798
Speaker 2: easy gas. When you got easy gas like that, it

1017
00:49:21,918 --> 00:49:22,878
Speaker 2: really shocks a hitter.

1018
00:49:23,278 --> 00:49:26,078
Speaker 1: Well, that's our edition this week, Joe. Let's call it

1019
00:49:26,078 --> 00:49:29,038
Speaker 1: a hitting edition of the Book of Joe. I always

1020
00:49:29,038 --> 00:49:31,158
Speaker 1: surprise you with these topics, by the way, but somehow

1021
00:49:31,238 --> 00:49:33,638
Speaker 1: you wind up coming up with the appropriate means of

1022
00:49:33,718 --> 00:49:38,638
Speaker 1: closing this show with some words of wisdom, so you

1023
00:49:38,638 --> 00:49:40,398
Speaker 1: won't disappoint me. I know that, But who do you

1024
00:49:40,438 --> 00:49:40,918
Speaker 1: have today?

1025
00:49:41,398 --> 00:49:46,078
Speaker 2: It's crazy. I went with strategy as the strategy. I

1026
00:49:46,158 --> 00:49:48,878
Speaker 2: was thinking about just the part of the time of

1027
00:49:48,878 --> 00:49:51,238
Speaker 2: the year that it is, and we're coming down to

1028
00:49:51,278 --> 00:49:54,878
Speaker 2: the stretch run and teams that are vying for the

1029
00:49:54,918 --> 00:49:56,518
Speaker 2: position to get into the playoffs. There's a lot of

1030
00:49:56,518 --> 00:49:59,238
Speaker 2: strategy involved in this, and then you're breaking down the

1031
00:49:59,358 --> 00:50:02,038
Speaker 2: hitting component of it, and I got three, but I

1032
00:50:02,398 --> 00:50:05,398
Speaker 2: don't want to. But it was so good because you know,

1033
00:50:05,838 --> 00:50:08,358
Speaker 2: I talk Offen a lot, a lot about the fact

1034
00:50:08,438 --> 00:50:11,558
Speaker 2: that I think everybody is something to be the same anymore,

1035
00:50:11,918 --> 00:50:14,758
Speaker 2: and there's not a lot of individual thought and freedom

1036
00:50:14,798 --> 00:50:17,598
Speaker 2: of thought in a sense. So, George Patten, if everyone

1037
00:50:17,678 --> 00:50:20,238
Speaker 2: is thinking and the like, then somebody isn't thinking. I

1038
00:50:20,278 --> 00:50:23,118
Speaker 2: love that. I mean, you have to have a diversity

1039
00:50:23,158 --> 00:50:25,958
Speaker 2: of opinion. We we love diversity. We don't love diversity

1040
00:50:25,958 --> 00:50:29,558
Speaker 2: of opinion anymore, right, we just want every group thing constantly.

1041
00:50:30,038 --> 00:50:32,078
Speaker 2: I love that. And this is like if I had

1042
00:50:32,078 --> 00:50:35,278
Speaker 2: like a Mantra model for me, would I do? It

1043
00:50:35,318 --> 00:50:39,718
Speaker 2: would be that I want diverse opinions. As a manager,

1044
00:50:39,798 --> 00:50:43,718
Speaker 2: I want somebody to challenge what I'm saying or thinking

1045
00:50:43,838 --> 00:50:47,118
Speaker 2: all the time. I love meetings when a thoughtful coach

1046
00:50:47,198 --> 00:50:51,158
Speaker 2: manager whenever would come up and would challenge what I said.

1047
00:50:51,198 --> 00:50:52,798
Speaker 2: I love that. God, It's the only way I'm going

1048
00:50:52,878 --> 00:50:56,918
Speaker 2: to grow. And so Patten said that, and then there's

1049
00:50:58,158 --> 00:51:00,278
Speaker 2: one more, just one more. It came from Mark Twain.

1050
00:51:01,118 --> 00:51:03,558
Speaker 2: If the metrics you are looking at aren't useful and

1051
00:51:03,598 --> 00:51:09,718
Speaker 2: optim your strategy, stop looking at them, right, He said

1052
00:51:09,758 --> 00:51:13,598
Speaker 2: this years ago. So yeah, when it comes down the strategy,

1053
00:51:14,238 --> 00:51:17,838
Speaker 2: look for diversity. If everybody wants diversity, how about how

1054
00:51:17,838 --> 00:51:21,318
Speaker 2: about opinion and not getting so offended when somebody disagrees

1055
00:51:21,358 --> 00:51:24,278
Speaker 2: with you and understand trying to understand where they're coming

1056
00:51:24,318 --> 00:51:26,478
Speaker 2: from and finding out to open my mind to this thought.

1057
00:51:26,518 --> 00:51:28,638
Speaker 2: Maybe it's going to make me better. And if your

1058
00:51:28,638 --> 00:51:32,798
Speaker 2: strategy isn't working, do something different. Don't get so married

1059
00:51:32,878 --> 00:51:35,398
Speaker 2: or locked into one thought. And you like God, I'm

1060
00:51:35,398 --> 00:51:37,238
Speaker 2: going to make this work. By God, this is what

1061
00:51:37,318 --> 00:51:39,518
Speaker 2: I this is what I've been promoting since. Is got

1062
00:51:39,518 --> 00:51:41,638
Speaker 2: to work. I'm gonna make it work. Sometimes you gotta

1063
00:51:41,678 --> 00:51:43,318
Speaker 2: punt anyway, That's what I have for today.

1064
00:51:43,478 --> 00:51:46,278
Speaker 1: Yeah, good advice for the Seattle Mariners. By the way,

1065
00:51:46,358 --> 00:51:49,718
Speaker 1: give me that line from patent again, because I love it.

1066
00:51:49,878 --> 00:51:53,758
Speaker 1: When a complex thought can be distilled in so few words,

1067
00:51:53,838 --> 00:51:54,998
Speaker 1: it has such impact.

1068
00:51:55,238 --> 00:52:00,398
Speaker 2: Right, if everyone is thinking alike, then somebody isn't thinking.

1069
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Speaker 1: I love it.

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Speaker 2: This is awesome, It is good. It's great.

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Speaker 1: Great job, Joe. We'll see you next time with the

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Speaker 1: Book of Joe.

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Speaker 2: Get two buddy, Thanks bye.

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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.