Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the
Speaker 1: Death of Me, a production of I Heart Radio. Okay,
Speaker 1: welcome to our podcast. This is Chelsea Joy Handler Brandon.
Speaker 1: What's your middle name? Anthony Brandon? Anthony? Can I see
Speaker 1: your last name on this? Okay? And Alexandra Stapleton, who
Speaker 1: is my documentary director. She's a documentary filmmaker and she
Speaker 1: happens to be the director of my latest film, which
Speaker 1: will be released on Netflix on September called Hello Privilege.
Speaker 1: It's me Chelsea, right. Is that the name we settled on?
Speaker 1: That is the name. Okay. It was a long, long
Speaker 1: road to shoot this documentary, very long, Okay. So Alexandra,
Speaker 1: that's how would you like me to say your name?
Speaker 1: Alex I call you alex Is it Alexandria, Alexandra, Drea, Dria?
Speaker 1: But I like alex Okay. So people don't call you Alexandra. No,
Speaker 1: they call you Alexandria, your mom. No one calls me
Speaker 1: Alexandria because it's too fucking long. It's too freacking long.
Speaker 1: And my first name is actually Kristen. Well, that's it's
Speaker 1: nice to meet you. Then it's good, thank you. But
Speaker 1: my middle name is Alexandria. I changed it to Alex
Speaker 1: so people would think I was a man when I
Speaker 1: first got started. Oh wow, that's smart. Did that help you?
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so. My first film,
Speaker 1: I would go into you know, meet the interview subject
Speaker 1: and they would say, we're waiting for Alex Stapleton and
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's me, and they're like, no, we're waiting
Speaker 1: for Alex Stapleton, the director. And so it didn't really
Speaker 1: work because people still didn't associate me, a young woman
Speaker 1: of color, you know, with being a director. So right,
Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. Yeah, well it also helped.
Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't go a long way because once
Speaker 1: they see you, then they're like, oh, you're a woman,
Speaker 1: let's start disrespecting you. Exactly. Now, that's not every situation.
Speaker 1: We don't want to I don't want to act like
Speaker 1: that's what it's like all day long, but it is
Speaker 1: for just last year, just last year personally. So tell
Speaker 1: us about some of the films that you've directed to
Speaker 1: people who aren't familiar with you are So the first
Speaker 1: film that I directed was called It was about Roger Corman.
Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm spa Corman's World is what
Speaker 1: it was called. It was a very long time ago.
Speaker 1: That was the first film I did. It took me
Speaker 1: five years to make. I have a crush on him
Speaker 1: while I did. You did Is he alive? He is alive?
Speaker 1: Well then I still do Okay, great, just like Robert Muller. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there's the same majoringe, same age range. Maybe I think
Speaker 1: Roger's a little bit. Roger's a little probably in his
Speaker 1: nineties now, but that tall, kind of tall lankie in control,
Speaker 1: smarter than me. Yes, he's Roger's a sexy guy. I
Speaker 1: met you right after you came off of shooting something
Speaker 1: with Lebron for HBO. So I show ran a series
Speaker 1: right before coming on to this project with you called
Speaker 1: shut Up and Dribble that Lebron executive produced with his
Speaker 1: company spring Hill. That was a three part series for Showtime.
Speaker 1: It was a great show Time. And you know, I
Speaker 1: direct a lot of branded content. UM have done other
Speaker 1: docuseries projects. We've I've worked with Eddie Schmidt. Yes, desmid
Speaker 1: is the director from my Chelsea does doc series and yes,
Speaker 1: he introduced us. Actually when I was starting my Netflix show,
Speaker 1: you came in right We met then, so we came together.
Speaker 1: This was kind of a lengthy process because we started
Speaker 1: a project, then we kind of stopped down, and then
Speaker 1: we started again. But we had to get all the
Speaker 1: right kind of um parts and pieces in place, which
Speaker 1: was kind of took a lot longer than we thought
Speaker 1: it would because white people were so resilient or resistant,
Speaker 1: resistant to speaking, resilient, so resistant to speaking about the
Speaker 1: subject of white privilege, which is the subject we wanted
Speaker 1: to encapsulate. Was coming from my own backyard, something that
Speaker 1: I didn't realize I was a beneficiary of until I
Speaker 1: was older. I thought I really worked hard for everything
Speaker 1: I had, it was because of all my talent. And
Speaker 1: then I realized, we'll wait a second. That can't be
Speaker 1: only the only part of the equation. So we came together,
Speaker 1: and you came and kind of had an idea of
Speaker 1: where we should go and the issues to tackle, and
Speaker 1: you gave me lots of reading material. One of the
Speaker 1: books that I want to recommend People's White Rage by
Speaker 1: Carol Anderson. I'm Done talking to White People about Race
Speaker 1: is another one by a British woman, is a great
Speaker 1: book that I read. And then Black Like Me is
Speaker 1: a great book which is a guy that he puts
Speaker 1: shoe polish on his face and he poses as a
Speaker 1: black man in the South. In the time period of time,
Speaker 1: was that sixties, back in the back in nineteen I
Speaker 1: want to say early sixties, maybe even I think earlier
Speaker 1: late fifties. So these were great reading tools for me
Speaker 1: to get started. Obviously there's myriad options to read about
Speaker 1: being a person of color or about white privilege or
Speaker 1: white denial of white privilege. But anyway, you get the picture.
Speaker 1: So what did you want to accomplish with this film
Speaker 1: and what do you think we have accomplished with this film?
Speaker 1: What were your goals and what's the reality I thought
Speaker 1: we were going to in racism with this film. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it didn't happen, but um, I know I really wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to white people. I mean I think that
Speaker 1: was a really big objective. Even when we first met
Speaker 1: and we were talking about, um, the different ways that
Speaker 1: this documentary about white privilege could shape up. I thought that,
Speaker 1: you know, with all, with every kind of racial incident
Speaker 1: that happens in the in this country, um, you know,
Speaker 1: be it on Twitter, with like the Starbucks incident, in
Speaker 1: white women especially calling the cops on people of color,
Speaker 1: just because they're black, or even more extreme incidences when
Speaker 1: things turned violent, you know that when white people commit
Speaker 1: hate crimes. I feel like white people never really the
Speaker 1: white perpetrators or the white people that are responsible for that,
Speaker 1: they kind of don't ever talk to the media, Like
Speaker 1: they go in hiding. Um, they get pushed, you know,
Speaker 1: like social media comes after them. The media always gives
Speaker 1: a voice to black people who have been hurt, and
Speaker 1: that's great, like we need that. But I feel like,
Speaker 1: why do these white people kind of get to just
Speaker 1: disappear without having to really take responsibility for their actions,
Speaker 1: and not only take responsibility, but but a real chance
Speaker 1: to see if they can learn, um and understand really
Speaker 1: like what they did, I don't know, just to to
Speaker 1: to be responsible for their actions and to to maybe
Speaker 1: to try to like curb that type of activity, you know,
Speaker 1: for other white people to stop acting like that. And
Speaker 1: um we were shut down. Um every white person that
Speaker 1: I that we went up that we went after to
Speaker 1: try to speak to them, um uh, to shine a
Speaker 1: light on what they what they did, and to understand
Speaker 1: like why why why do you feel so threatened by
Speaker 1: black people? Why? Why what's going through your head? How
Speaker 1: how were you raised? How how why is this an issue? Um,
Speaker 1: no one really wanted to talk. So black people were
Speaker 1: really were very much willing to talk to us, and
Speaker 1: we got a lot of black people to participa in
Speaker 1: this show, Carol Anderson, who was awesome. It was amazing.
Speaker 1: It tell us a little bit about your background because
Speaker 1: your mother is black. My mother is black, my father
Speaker 1: is white. So I am technically by racial, but I
Speaker 1: identify as a black woman. I grew up in the South,
Speaker 1: in Houston, Texas. My mother is also a black lesbian,
Speaker 1: so I grew up with a lesbian mom who is
Speaker 1: in the South and got to kind of see a
Speaker 1: very different way of having to deal with the world
Speaker 1: through my mom and with race. My black family very
Speaker 1: working class. My white family, they're very Texan, you know
Speaker 1: a lot of Bubba's. But my family is really close.
Speaker 1: So I think that what brings them together is this
Speaker 1: struggle just you know, every single day to put food
Speaker 1: on the table, to support their families, their kids, send
Speaker 1: try to send a kid to college, you know, if possible,
Speaker 1: just the regular things that most Americans want to do.
Speaker 1: And I feel like, and this is something that we
Speaker 1: talked about when we first met I feel like the
Speaker 1: South gets a lot of like the attention when it
Speaker 1: comes to race relations because everyone's like, oh, God, down South,
Speaker 1: everything is so messed up. And that's what people that's
Speaker 1: like the narrative of you know, liberals in California, especially
Speaker 1: white people and in New York coastal elites, they feel
Speaker 1: like they live in this kind of utopia, and people
Speaker 1: in the South or you know, it's like the clan
Speaker 1: is still coming and white people are it's segregation is
Speaker 1: still alive and well, and Jim Crow is alive and well.
Speaker 1: There are problems in the South, for sure, but I
Speaker 1: have never lived in a more segregated environment than my
Speaker 1: time in Los Angeles, right, Which is something that we
Speaker 1: talked about in the film, because we realize that while
Speaker 1: these coastal a liberal coastal liberal elites or liberal coastal
Speaker 1: elites are okay with saying, you know, voicing their opinions
Speaker 1: that they want everybody to be treated equally, that every
Speaker 1: you know, everyone's progressive, everyone wants equal rights for everybody,
Speaker 1: we still self segregate. We don't want to live next
Speaker 1: door to black people because white people live in certain
Speaker 1: areas and black people live in certain areas, and Asian
Speaker 1: people live in certain areas, and Korean people live in
Speaker 1: certain areas, not to be confused with Asian people, and
Speaker 1: that everybody self segregates in this city as as they
Speaker 1: do in many metropolis is if that's how you say
Speaker 1: that plurally but metropoli if uh. But the other thing,
Speaker 1: and then the opposite is true that black with people
Speaker 1: and white people in the South have no problem living
Speaker 1: together and community and having community get together. They just
Speaker 1: don't want black people having the votes and the voices
Speaker 1: that they have. So it's the opposite. There's two two
Speaker 1: bad things, right, Yeah, I mean I think if we're generalizing,
Speaker 1: I mean those are really big, big generalizations of of
Speaker 1: the differences. I think that down South. Look, and I'm
Speaker 1: from one part of the South, but I think that
Speaker 1: the cultures do commingle more because, um, class is kind
Speaker 1: of like more of an issue a lot of the times.
Speaker 1: It's not to say that that, you know, as a
Speaker 1: black woman growing up in the South, and especially like
Speaker 1: what my mother went through that um my mother was
Speaker 1: born into you know, during Jim Crow, Uh, the South
Speaker 1: was completely segregated. Integration happened when she was in high school.
Speaker 1: So I'm first generation integration. UM, I'd say for that
Speaker 1: big leap to happen, it's actually pretty progressive compared to
Speaker 1: Los Angeles or even New York. You know, I agree
Speaker 1: with you. I think that people choose to self segregate
Speaker 1: here a lot, but then they go to the ballot,
Speaker 1: you know, or they feel like, oh, I'm I love Obama.
Speaker 1: I mean, that was another thing that we connected over
Speaker 1: that I think a lot of California white liberals, UM,
Speaker 1: I felt that there was a race problem, um when
Speaker 1: Donald Trump got elected, and that wasn't really news to
Speaker 1: most people of color, and that was something that we
Speaker 1: kind of talked about. You thought that, I mean, I
Speaker 1: don't want to speak for you, but that please do.
Speaker 1: It's better than I don't when I speak for myself,
Speaker 1: but that you felt that we had kind of moved
Speaker 1: past race right with Obama being a Laively, I thought
Speaker 1: we were moved past racism and we were moving past uh, sexism.
Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't even realize that sexism was the
Speaker 1: issue that it was before this Me Too movement. Okay,
Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. Brandon,
Speaker 1: what about you? You grew up in South Dakota. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I grew up in the Midwest, and are there any
Speaker 1: black people there? In South Dakota? There is a large
Speaker 1: Native American population, so for us, that was the segregation
Speaker 1: that you saw was the Native Americans who still live
Speaker 1: on reservations. But what's interesting here Alex talked about the
Speaker 1: race issue that sometimes it's out of sight, out of mind.
Speaker 1: So you think these issues have been resolved, but then,
Speaker 1: like I told you recently, I was in San Diego
Speaker 1: with my boyfriend and someone drives down and yells fags
Speaker 1: at us, and it's like, oh no, these things are
Speaker 1: still happening. You just live in such a bubble that
Speaker 1: you forget there are places outside of your area that
Speaker 1: are still facing these issues. Friends are still going through things. Okay,
Speaker 1: this is a question really quick. You are classying people
Speaker 1: as black. What is appropriate African American or black? Before
Speaker 1: I continue, I think it's up to the individual. Okay.
Speaker 1: I prefer black, Okay, because I think African Americans sounds
Speaker 1: really formal okay to me personally, But if if I
Speaker 1: meant another black person or like I need to be
Speaker 1: addressed as in Africa, Okay, Well, for like a default
Speaker 1: white person who just wants to be respectful, Like what
Speaker 1: is there one that we should go with? In your opinion,
Speaker 1: I think you're safe with either. Okay, well, so like
Speaker 1: African American friends who still say like yeah, like I'm
Speaker 1: in l A and I'll go to a club and
Speaker 1: like you get a second look like there's and so
Speaker 1: it's not until someone says something because if you're not
Speaker 1: personally affected by it, like I haven't been called a
Speaker 1: fag since junior high and I'm in you know, liberal
Speaker 1: San Diego thinking like their rainbow flags flying, that's never
Speaker 1: gonna happen here for me walking down the street holding
Speaker 1: a hand, but it still does, and it's important to
Speaker 1: have those reminders. I think that these issues are not resolved,
Speaker 1: like they are still happening and we need to be
Speaker 1: aware of it. And San Diego is not as liberal
Speaker 1: as l A. No, but you start, I mean it's
Speaker 1: more pretty conservative. Yeah, I mean, well, okay, for me,
Speaker 1: it was like you're being in are in a serious
Speaker 1: like there are rainbow flags flowing right right, you're not
Speaker 1: other gay couples that I'm not an anomaly and yeah,
Speaker 1: but were you flying those rainbow flags off of your
Speaker 1: own shoulder or were there, Actually, sorry, rainbow fireworks out
Speaker 1: of my butt hole, Like that's how they how you
Speaker 1: celebrate pride. Thank you, thank you very much. So to
Speaker 1: that point, I think that there are a lot of
Speaker 1: us who kind of assume, you know, when I say
Speaker 1: us white people, oh, I've not seen racism lately, it's
Speaker 1: not happening. And it is. And that's kind of like
Speaker 1: the thing though, right, It's like white privilege is that
Speaker 1: you don't have to deal with it on the day,
Speaker 1: on a day to day but or notice it or no,
Speaker 1: you're not looking out for racist acts because you're surrounded
Speaker 1: mostly by people who look like you. Yeah, and as
Speaker 1: a and I think that, I mean, it goes back
Speaker 1: to why I think it was easier for us to
Speaker 1: find black people to sit down and talk with us, because,
Speaker 1: I mean, pretty much the culture black people as a culture,
Speaker 1: it's a weird used to having these conversations. It's not um,
Speaker 1: it doesn't like it doesn't make us nervous. Um. But
Speaker 1: I think that we found and and I don't I
Speaker 1: don't think it's a secret that white people kind of
Speaker 1: like the hair stand up on their backs a little bit.
Speaker 1: Like the minute that we get you know, people get
Speaker 1: into a racial conversation or a conversation about race, because
Speaker 1: my personal opinion is that and I even I mean,
Speaker 1: I would say this even for my white family, like
Speaker 1: white people tend to take things personal when we talk
Speaker 1: about race. They tend to make it about them. It's
Speaker 1: like the only time that they take on this weird,
Speaker 1: But it's a classic defense mechanism. Anytime you're defending yourself,
Speaker 1: you want to like lay blame, get blame off of you,
Speaker 1: so which means that it doesn't mean you're guilty, but
Speaker 1: you're acting like it. Yeah, when instead you can engage
Speaker 1: somebody and say, oh, how can I be better educated
Speaker 1: on the subject matter, Like you know, when you're talking
Speaker 1: to somebody in the trance community, what would you like
Speaker 1: me to refer to you as be generous and thoughtful
Speaker 1: and consider it? And then then you can't make a mistake,
Speaker 1: because how can that be a mistake. You can't ask
Speaker 1: a question and then be attacked for wanting to know
Speaker 1: the answer. That's just common courtesy. Well, that's why I'm
Speaker 1: so excited for. This is the podcast I've been most
Speaker 1: excited for because and so when you say, like, oh,
Speaker 1: white people don't want to talk to us, like God,
Speaker 1: that's so interesting because like I was so excited, like
Speaker 1: I wrote questions on this morning, like I couldn't stop
Speaker 1: thinking about Okay, so Alex, it's coming in, like how
Speaker 1: can I grow as person? Like how can I be better?
Speaker 1: And I think sometimes people take that on as like
Speaker 1: they just want to cause but seeing the documentary be
Speaker 1: produced and still realizing like no, there are always ways
Speaker 1: to grow. And of course, with like the political climate
Speaker 1: and in the media, you see so much more of
Speaker 1: what the issues really are. And like one of them
Speaker 1: I want to talk about later is Hallie Bailey being
Speaker 1: cast as the Little Mermaid Disney, right, who is an
Speaker 1: African American, you know, young girl, and people are up
Speaker 1: in arms about it, and so I just haven't been
Speaker 1: able to stop thinking about it. So today before I
Speaker 1: came in and like this is like I'm so lucky
Speaker 1: to be able to go and like talk about this
Speaker 1: and nasty questions because that's the only way to get better.
Speaker 1: So it's sad that like someone else who is a
Speaker 1: Caucasian white would not want to take that opportunity. Well
Speaker 1: that and I think I think the really big thing
Speaker 1: and I hope that this documentary because I feel like
Speaker 1: it's it's not like there's a you have to be
Speaker 1: white or black or Latino or whatever to watch it.
Speaker 1: But I think that it's because we're kind of using
Speaker 1: your story, Chelsea, is like your story of white privilege.
Speaker 1: I feel like it might resonate with white audiences. The
Speaker 1: soundtrack should have been as I walked through life as
Speaker 1: a white no problem most and nothing happened or everything happened.
Speaker 1: But I feel like white people, I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: a feeling, it's factual. White people need to talk to
Speaker 1: white people more. You know, it's like men who don't
Speaker 1: talk about their emotions. Yeah, it's that. It's that being
Speaker 1: stuck and not a woman able to deal necessarily get
Speaker 1: that man to talk about as emotions because there's so
Speaker 1: much stuff attached to that. And I feel it's a
Speaker 1: fact that that a lot of white people don't necessarily
Speaker 1: hear the same message from a black person or you know,
Speaker 1: a person of color communicating, hey, I was offended because
Speaker 1: you did this, this and this and this, Whereas if
Speaker 1: a white person enters the equation and talks to another
Speaker 1: white person, it's like they can have this off the
Speaker 1: record conversation, you know about how to be a better ally. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so I think it's a similar thing. I think people,
Speaker 1: you know, white people are stuck, but with their lack
Speaker 1: of I mean, not all white people. I think there's
Speaker 1: obviously many that are trying to do a better job.
Speaker 1: But I do think that it is similar to men
Speaker 1: being stuck emotionally. You know, it's like that hump you
Speaker 1: don't want to get over, and when you do get
Speaker 1: over it, you're like, Okay, I'm so much more educated now.
Speaker 1: You know, now I get it, So tell me about Okay,
Speaker 1: because you forced me to reunite with my ex boyfriend
Speaker 1: from high school, I forced you to basically, Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: how would you frame that I don't want to meet
Speaker 1: him again? And you know you didn't, Well, you were
Speaker 1: very It's not that you didn't. I would that I
Speaker 1: were nervous, yes, And I didn't know if he was
Speaker 1: you know, how he was going to look at me.
Speaker 1: I mean, he had spent fourteen years incarcerated, which I
Speaker 1: had no idea because you told me I think I've
Speaker 1: been out for fourteen years, so we flipped that information.
Speaker 1: So that was a shocker. But I did go and
Speaker 1: see him, and this was a guy who I dated
Speaker 1: in high school. It was a drug dealer. His name
Speaker 1: was Tayshawn. We got arrested a couple of times for pot. Well,
Speaker 1: he got arrested. I was let go every time. I
Speaker 1: got pregnant a couple of times, had two abortions, and
Speaker 1: then I moved out, went back to my community and
Speaker 1: never saw him again. And then he ended up being
Speaker 1: put in the system for minor possession of marijuana. Now
Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't a couple of yeah, So that
Speaker 1: led to another one and which led to him being
Speaker 1: found guilty of armed robbery. But he had had a
Speaker 1: full scholarship to un l V, which he lost basically
Speaker 1: because of being put into that system where I was
Speaker 1: there for both times and was told by the police
Speaker 1: to go back to my house wherever that was. And
Speaker 1: when I was done with Taishan, when I woke up
Speaker 1: and was like, okay, I'm not going to be in
Speaker 1: this world. Actually, my father dragged me out of there
Speaker 1: by my hair and was like, come back, You're not
Speaker 1: staying here anymore. I was able to go back into
Speaker 1: my life and go I didn't graduate high school. I
Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to graduate high school, and time but because
Speaker 1: of where I was from and because of my family,
Speaker 1: and they bent the rules for me, and I went
Speaker 1: to summer school and I graduated. I had lost all
Speaker 1: credit of my junior year in high school and made
Speaker 1: it up in a summer at my own pace. I
Speaker 1: went to alternative school so I could graduate in time.
Speaker 1: So I was afforded the luxuries that Taishan would never
Speaker 1: ever have been afforded. And his life was pretty much
Speaker 1: it's not ruined because he's out now and he has
Speaker 1: five children, and he's got a job, and he's healthy
Speaker 1: and he's not using. But his life went off the track,
Speaker 1: whereas mine was fine and from an outside perspective, largely
Speaker 1: due to the color of years. Again, yeah, you had
Speaker 1: the complexion. I wouldn't say that was the Yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what said. I had the complexion for the connection. And
Speaker 1: then Tyshawn also thought we were going to get back
Speaker 1: together and that he was coming to California to live
Speaker 1: with me, and I had to remind him that he's
Speaker 1: on parole and he can't leave the state of New Jersey.
Speaker 1: I would have been a fun surprise for me. I
Speaker 1: think that that was a really interesting point, like behind
Speaker 1: the scenes, because when I met you. I feel like
Speaker 1: the narrative in the story. I mean, you even open
Speaker 1: this podcast up with white privilege. For you, I think
Speaker 1: you kind of in your head thought that it started
Speaker 1: when you got to l A and then bam, you know,
Speaker 1: the white privilege meter was on right you started, you
Speaker 1: got this career. Then I became an elitist, which is
Speaker 1: what I always wanted to be, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: my goal was to have lots of money and cleaning
Speaker 1: ladies and people who worked at my house because I
Speaker 1: wanted the exact opposite experience of growing up in my
Speaker 1: parents house. So that's that. So that's the truth of
Speaker 1: the matter, and that's where I think that's where it
Speaker 1: turned on for you. And I think with the film
Speaker 1: what we were trying to accomplish was to say, no,
Speaker 1: this this goes way deeper than that. And the fork
Speaker 1: in the road probably started even before Tyshan. It definitely did,
Speaker 1: but that was when you were still in high school
Speaker 1: and look at the difference of how your life turned
Speaker 1: out compared to his. And it's not to it's not
Speaker 1: to exploit Tyshon. It's not to make it like oh,
Speaker 1: he like you said, he's in a really good place
Speaker 1: right now, and his family, like they're very happy and
Speaker 1: he is not using and I think, you know, has
Speaker 1: kind of come out of that, but he lost a
Speaker 1: lot and it was interesting for me to kind of
Speaker 1: try to peel back the layers a little bit too,
Speaker 1: for you to see like, oh no, this goes way
Speaker 1: deeper than just being in California with my comedy career,
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's kind of runs parallel
Speaker 1: to how I think white people think about race. Like
Speaker 1: you kind of white people are like, oh well, I
Speaker 1: worked really hard for this, and Okay, I can kind
Speaker 1: of see what you're saying a little bit, you know,
Speaker 1: when it comes to like my job or or you know,
Speaker 1: they want to kind of they can accept white privilege
Speaker 1: and small doses, but white privileges it's it's yeah, it's huge,
Speaker 1: It systemic. It's you know, it goes all the way
Speaker 1: down to like too when we were babies in a hospital,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's so rooted in like
Speaker 1: our everyday life. You know, we're judged by our sex
Speaker 1: that we are, as well as the race that we are,
Speaker 1: and like where we come from. I mean, all of
Speaker 1: these things are factors and how our lives are shaped.
Speaker 1: We didn't get really deep when our film. We weren't
Speaker 1: able to cover every topic, but I thought that it
Speaker 1: was really interesting that your story, also with Tyshan and
Speaker 1: what you experienced in high school, also was reflective of
Speaker 1: what was happening in the state of New Jersey. And
Speaker 1: to go back to this whole false narrative that everything's
Speaker 1: okay on the coasts and everything's fucked up in the south.
Speaker 1: New Jersey is like one of the worst states when
Speaker 1: it comes to the disparity of white and teens of color,
Speaker 1: but specifically black teens that are incarcerated. I think the
Speaker 1: national average, and we have to this is a fact checking,
Speaker 1: I believe the national averages seven to one, and in
Speaker 1: New Jersey it was thirty to one. I think it's
Speaker 1: going to be a shock to people that New Jersey
Speaker 1: is actually very messed up when it comes to they
Speaker 1: have a lot of racism in New Jersey and they're
Speaker 1: and they're dealing with it on a systemic level, and
Speaker 1: there's people they're fighting the good fight to do that work.
Speaker 1: But so it's no coincidence that you know, your story
Speaker 1: actually proves the statistics you've got when you encounter law enforcement.
Speaker 1: It was like, Oh, this poor girl needs to go
Speaker 1: back to hurt people, whereas Tyshawn is you know, thought
Speaker 1: of as a perpetrator, you know, no second chances. And
Speaker 1: that was something that Ryan when we sat down with
Speaker 1: with Ryan and New Jersey, he I think he really
Speaker 1: was good at explaining that for too many black and
Speaker 1: brown kids and teens, there are no second chances. You know,
Speaker 1: there are no um, there's no there's no room to
Speaker 1: mess up. And I think that is something that's armored.
Speaker 1: That are a reality that I think that I wear,
Speaker 1: and that people of color where all the time that
Speaker 1: we don't always if I mess up on a job,
Speaker 1: it might like devastate my career, you know. And for
Speaker 1: a white male especially, I would say even more so
Speaker 1: than a white woman, it's like, oh, you know, we're
Speaker 1: very forgiving of mistakes, and especially with teens and with
Speaker 1: young people and with kids, I think that you've got
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunities to correct yourself. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1: there was a judge the other day that excused a
Speaker 1: boy that was accused of right because he had good grades. Really,
Speaker 1: there was an article I read. I mean, I don't
Speaker 1: know what came of the case. But yeah, he was saying, well,
Speaker 1: he should get lesser sentenced because he's doing really well
Speaker 1: in school and he had a scholarship, as if that
Speaker 1: exonerates you. What is your experience working as a female
Speaker 1: black director. I've been working. I dropped out of school.
Speaker 1: My father doesn't know that, but I dropped out of
Speaker 1: school when I was nineteen. Well that's how you become
Speaker 1: a director. Congratulations, And I'm turning forty. Congratulations for twenty years.
Speaker 1: And I started out from the bottom, you know, as
Speaker 1: a p A and like in turn actually and worked
Speaker 1: my way up. I don't think I thought about race,
Speaker 1: to be honest, in my twenties a lot, because it
Speaker 1: was just so hard. I mean, I was living in
Speaker 1: New York and it was just hard to like keep
Speaker 1: the lights on. Like I just I don't know. I
Speaker 1: was just on an autopilot and I didn't really think
Speaker 1: about being a woman. And I don't think I thought
Speaker 1: about my race often. It wasn't until like after my
Speaker 1: first film that I started to notice this weird kind
Speaker 1: of difference with all of my colleague, like all the
Speaker 1: guys that were kind of that we all started at
Speaker 1: the same time and when they made their first feature.
Speaker 1: Their careers started and they were get you know, they
Speaker 1: were making they were directing commercials and getting TV offers
Speaker 1: and and I was like, how is this magically happening?
Speaker 1: And then my film, you know, I'm not saying Corman's
Speaker 1: World is like going to blow you away, but it
Speaker 1: got into the can Film Festival, it competed at Sundance.
Speaker 1: We got bought. I mean that's a big deal for
Speaker 1: an indie. Like it's a great film. I've seen it, well,
Speaker 1: thank you. And I couldn't get a job. And it
Speaker 1: was so weird because I had a lawyer and I
Speaker 1: just remember her like you need to do this, and
Speaker 1: you need to do that, and I like, I need
Speaker 1: to pay my rent next month, Like I you know,
Speaker 1: I don't what am I missing? Like how is everyone
Speaker 1: else continuing to work and and and and to grow
Speaker 1: and excel? And I'm not. And I'm not going to
Speaker 1: say that that was because I was a black woman,
Speaker 1: but I started to my eyes were kind of open
Speaker 1: to a little bit of a different reality that I
Speaker 1: felt that I was facing. And I probably feel like
Speaker 1: it was a little bit more of just being a woman,
Speaker 1: because I think that this business, I think it's different
Speaker 1: for black men than it is for black women. You know.
Speaker 1: I think that to be male in Hollywood as a
Speaker 1: director is a huge advantage, and it still is. I
Speaker 1: think right now it's great to see so many Black
Speaker 1: women and so many women just in general get these
Speaker 1: opportunities to direct on television shows and to get features
Speaker 1: and to get you know, big budgeted features off the ground.
Speaker 1: But see how long it lasts. Do you think it's
Speaker 1: women like Shonda Rhymes that have Like to me, she
Speaker 1: was one of the first big mainstream You saw her everywhere,
Speaker 1: she had hit shows, a contract with a network. Was
Speaker 1: there a turning point that you did see that You're like,
Speaker 1: it's this person or it was this event that now
Speaker 1: diversity in African America for black people. I think it
Speaker 1: was Ava. I think she was, yeah, diverne. I think
Speaker 1: that she because Shonda Rhymes is like doing the scripted
Speaker 1: television kind of thing and is and I think that
Speaker 1: she's great and that's amazing. It just didn't really affect me.
Speaker 1: I met Ava Sundance with Corman actually, and I was
Speaker 1: on a panel because it's Sundance. That year I was
Speaker 1: a black female director with the movie and competition and
Speaker 1: I wasn't invited to any of the black events because
Speaker 1: for some reason, no one thought that I was black.
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was because of the movie
Speaker 1: that I did or whatever. And I wrote to that
Speaker 1: I think it's like the Black House at Sundance. And
Speaker 1: I wrote to them, I was like, you're doing all
Speaker 1: these events for all the black directors, that's dance and
Speaker 1: I haven't, like, can I come? And they were like,
Speaker 1: oh shit, like we thought you were Native American. I didn't.
Speaker 1: I don't know what they thought I was. I don't
Speaker 1: think they thought I was a woman either. That's where
Speaker 1: the name. That's where it happened to me as well
Speaker 1: on the phone. On the phone, Um, but Ava did
Speaker 1: I did it. So anyway, they invited me to come
Speaker 1: and speak at this on this panel and Ava was there,
Speaker 1: and that was the first time I met her. And
Speaker 1: this is before she was soup. She blew up. And
Speaker 1: Ava's magical because she doesn't just take success for her.
Speaker 1: She brings everybody with her and I and she was
Speaker 1: doing that then, like no one knew who I was.
Speaker 1: I was just like young. I was like twenty eight
Speaker 1: years old and I was on a panel with you know,
Speaker 1: a black audience talking about Roger Corman and it was
Speaker 1: not hitting, and Ava was like, um, Ava really had
Speaker 1: my back. And then she did press after that, and
Speaker 1: she kept in all of her interviews, she kept saying,
Speaker 1: there's not it's not just me, there's other directors that
Speaker 1: are right behind me, and she would put me in
Speaker 1: this and that you know, of of of folks. And
Speaker 1: I think that's when I started to kind of the
Speaker 1: light went on for me. And I still think she's
Speaker 1: doing that, you know, like right now, I'm sure running
Speaker 1: a series for effects. And so Cheryl Danier, who's you know,
Speaker 1: an amazing black lesbian filmmaker, is the director producer on
Speaker 1: Queen Sugar, and Ava's doing it on Queen Sugar. You know,
Speaker 1: she she only brings women to the table, and I
Speaker 1: think this season it's it's predominantly women of color that
Speaker 1: she's giving rise to. And then that way these women
Speaker 1: can go out and go get more jobs, you know,
Speaker 1: to keep the lights on in their house and to
Speaker 1: grow as a director and to to get better at
Speaker 1: their craft. And I have to say, Chelsea, like I
Speaker 1: think I totally completely mean this. I feel like you're
Speaker 1: a person that does that. I feel like you're a
Speaker 1: giant champion for women. I think for you to let
Speaker 1: me do this film and to hire me really was
Speaker 1: a very personal thing for me, because it's you don't
Speaker 1: get those opportunities all the time, and it's not like
Speaker 1: I had done five million things on Race. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we found each other. I'm glad that
Speaker 1: we met, and I'm glad that we had a good
Speaker 1: working relationship together. And I mean it was a big
Speaker 1: learning experience for me. I'm only sad that, you know,
Speaker 1: you feel like you want to tackle a subject and
Speaker 1: you just scratch the surface, and you really want to
Speaker 1: dig into something. Because when I did my original docuseries
Speaker 1: for Netflix, the Race one was the one that I
Speaker 1: found most compelling personally and like as a viewer. So
Speaker 1: I wanted to scratch the surface even further, which we did.
Speaker 1: But there's just so much to do, and so in
Speaker 1: so many places and directions to go in it's hard
Speaker 1: to focus that attention, and the world was happening in
Speaker 1: real time. And you know, I think that even in
Speaker 1: the in the span of like when we were making
Speaker 1: this film, I feel like the United States of America
Speaker 1: changed so dract i mean, it's still changing so drastically
Speaker 1: and it's hard to keep up with. I mean, when
Speaker 1: we were first doing this, I know that we spoke
Speaker 1: a lot about we did not want to include forty five,
Speaker 1: you know, in the I don't even like saying his name.
Speaker 1: I'd like to say to all of my listeners I
Speaker 1: wanted some acknowledgment for how a few times I've said
Speaker 1: his name in this podcast. I barely talk about the
Speaker 1: guy anymore. So I just want you to know that
Speaker 1: I've been touched and healed. Hallelujah, sister, and we to
Speaker 1: YouTube Brandon a men sister. Okay, well, this sounds like
Speaker 1: a good time to take a break. We don't really
Speaker 1: talk about him at all. I don't even think he's
Speaker 1: mentioned in the film at one point because he's not
Speaker 1: the problem. He's not the problems symptom. And I was
Speaker 1: confused in the beginning that he was the problem. He
Speaker 1: is not the problem. He was a catalyst. His election
Speaker 1: was a catalyst for an awakening I think with a
Speaker 1: lot of white folks, Yes, and that is a good
Speaker 1: thing if we can get to the next level, which
Speaker 1: is like he is no different. I mean, he he's
Speaker 1: just he's a symptom. Exactly what you said. He is
Speaker 1: no different than you know what this country has faced
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, dating back to hundreds
Speaker 1: of years ago. And I think it's missed opportunity to
Speaker 1: make race conversations in this day and age about and
Speaker 1: not about real things, you know, real talk, Um, how
Speaker 1: do we change the laws? And that was another really
Speaker 1: big thing I think that we forgot to mention, was
Speaker 1: you know, I think that the challenging part was because
Speaker 1: this is such a giant topic, where do you how
Speaker 1: do you like hone it in? Um? And yeah, your
Speaker 1: personal story, we followed that, but I also think that
Speaker 1: your work. I think people were will be surprised. Even
Speaker 1: when we were shooting, I think people were. I saw
Speaker 1: that for you, it's felt like there was a connection
Speaker 1: between race and voting because you are so invested with
Speaker 1: getting people out to go vote, and that seemed like
Speaker 1: this kind of interesting like intersection, you know, when talking
Speaker 1: about white privilege, because if you don't vote, if you
Speaker 1: don't have a SNL and election, you can't change the
Speaker 1: systemic ways that the government and the laws are hurting
Speaker 1: you as a community. And I you know, I know
Speaker 1: it's not like the sexiest subjects, you know, to talk
Speaker 1: about voter suppression and all of that, But I actually
Speaker 1: think it's the foundation of UM and it's educational because
Speaker 1: people some people don't believe that voter suppression is happening,
Speaker 1: and people don't understand how that how it can happen,
Speaker 1: or they don't understand what jerrymandering is. All the things
Speaker 1: that I you know that I learned after the election.
Speaker 1: You know, so many people UM don't know about and
Speaker 1: you don't realize that there's a huge lack of education
Speaker 1: in this country about those things. So voting is the
Speaker 1: tool that you have to use. It is the only
Speaker 1: way to have your voice heard, and which is hard
Speaker 1: for people when they get turned away at voting polls
Speaker 1: or voting places and told to go somewhere else after
Speaker 1: they've you know, I remember that story that Oprah told,
Speaker 1: Remember when she was campaigning for Stacy Abrahams. She was
Speaker 1: talking about that a man who went to four different
Speaker 1: voting places and walked and walked, and she said, every
Speaker 1: time I vote, it's for that man who got turned
Speaker 1: away from four different places and he'd walk something like,
Speaker 1: you know, eight miles. No white person will ever walk
Speaker 1: eight miles to vote. That hasn't happened once. Just like
Speaker 1: women don't masturbate into plants, white people don't walk to
Speaker 1: the bulls, and if they do, it's around the corner. Brandon,
Speaker 1: did you have any follow up questions? I have a
Speaker 1: lot that I would like to get into it. Because
Speaker 1: it's you know, alex Is, it's in media. I'm just
Speaker 1: going to take a quick shower. Um, great, okay, Well,
Speaker 1: so back to the Little Mermaid. One of the things
Speaker 1: I want to touch on is that there's a lot
Speaker 1: of feedback right now of a cartoon character who is
Speaker 1: white with red hair being recast as an African American girl.
Speaker 1: So obviously the aesthetic is completely different. And when I
Speaker 1: first saw the news, my initial reaction, as you know,
Speaker 1: someone with nostalgia towards The Mermaid my favorite Disney movie
Speaker 1: is is that she just didn't match what you're conceptualized
Speaker 1: idea of her should be based on the cartoon. Now,
Speaker 1: Hallie Bailey looks exactly like the Little Mermaid in African
Speaker 1: American forms. She's got the lips, the nose, the big eyes,
Speaker 1: like she looks like a Disney princess. So I had
Speaker 1: to take a second to think that anyone can play
Speaker 1: that role. It's a fairy tale. It's a fantasy, and
Speaker 1: mermaids aren't real, but there's still that like momentary, like
Speaker 1: it should be a white girl with red hair, even
Speaker 1: though I know that's wrong. So like what feedback, Like
Speaker 1: how can we reconcile our ideals of like that certain
Speaker 1: roles should be played by certain people, or that now
Speaker 1: they're saying there's a lot of like necessary diversity, that
Speaker 1: like people are just being put in positions or like
Speaker 1: roles are being recast just so they're African American or
Speaker 1: just so they're Asian, or just so their Native American.
Speaker 1: And I had a friend who said, oh, now I
Speaker 1: can't get a job because everyone's hiring you know, minorities
Speaker 1: and women. Right, He's like, and they're not qualified to
Speaker 1: do these jobs. I'm they're not more qualified than I am.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, but you've had an advantage by being male, right,
Speaker 1: so now it's time to give it up a little bit.
Speaker 1: And people don't want to deal with that because again,
Speaker 1: quality feels like something taken to some people who have
Speaker 1: had it their whole life. And I feel I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean the statistics should still prove that white men
Speaker 1: are totally okay in the United States of America. Actually
Speaker 1: in the world, they're they're doing just fine. Um. I
Speaker 1: think that the that the representation for the Disney Princess
Speaker 1: is kind of multi pronged because I grew up with
Speaker 1: with you know, aerial Ariel aeriel uh Ariela, that's where
Speaker 1: I want to go, but I know that actually it's
Speaker 1: arial short for Ariela. Oh my god. Um. I grew
Speaker 1: up with that white princess too, and I think that
Speaker 1: that's sad that like there's this whole dre of not
Speaker 1: just instead of celebration, instead of saying yeah great, great
Speaker 1: black girl gets it, this is awesome. People are like pissed.
Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy. And if there's like Facebook groups
Speaker 1: being set up to take her dance, I mean it's nonsense. Um. Well,
Speaker 1: first of all, no one should be that committed to
Speaker 1: any any dictionalized character. Sounds like you are as committed
Speaker 1: as one can be. Well, because in my head, as
Speaker 1: that six year old kid watching that movie, you have
Speaker 1: an expectation. But I'm not going to start like I
Speaker 1: don't give a ship like she First of all, she
Speaker 1: has an incredible singing like she's going to kill it
Speaker 1: as a little mermaid, but there was still that momentary like, oh,
Speaker 1: it should be a white girl with red hair, but
Speaker 1: you're by you just being honest about that weird kind
Speaker 1: of shift in your head and being able to vocalize that,
Speaker 1: and like life goes on and you were able to
Speaker 1: kind of like reset and go, oh, you know right,
Speaker 1: like I can't wait. I can't wait to see her
Speaker 1: in the role. The same way my favorite version of
Speaker 1: any Disney movie Cinderella with Brandy and Whitney Houston, like
Speaker 1: I still watch it, like I still will. Smith is Aladdin.
Speaker 1: I didn't like that, but I didn't like the movie,
Speaker 1: Like it wasn't because of him, Like I just seem
Speaker 1: to have missed a lot of nothing, nothing about what
Speaker 1: you guys. You might as well be speaking North Korean. Um.
Speaker 1: I think that, uh you know, I think that if
Speaker 1: you get if it stings for a second, get over it,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that would be my what my
Speaker 1: opinion about two people who are which is actually a
Speaker 1: very honest, natural reaction. It's a it's a better reaction
Speaker 1: than to you know, it's almost a more organic reaction
Speaker 1: than to go yes, that's great. Yeah, I get more
Speaker 1: worried about the white person that shows me this article
Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, I just want you to know
Speaker 1: disease really doing a good job. They've gotten. You know,
Speaker 1: aerial is now black. Aren't you excited? And they're bringing
Speaker 1: that to me. I have nothing to do with like
Speaker 1: the I mean that would actually be more alarming than
Speaker 1: someone like yourself saying you know, I saw this and
Speaker 1: I was like kind of like weirded out by my
Speaker 1: own brain that in my subconscious mind, I was kind
Speaker 1: of like, well, not adolests and expectation again, like that's
Speaker 1: what it was. But again, a lot of characters are
Speaker 1: being repurposed. They're actively trying to incorporate diversity. So what
Speaker 1: is your take on shows that are doing that, Like
Speaker 1: a lot of Netflix shows like Every Table has an
Speaker 1: Asian and African American a native like in a white person,
Speaker 1: which I think is eight. How does that compare to
Speaker 1: TV shows like Blackish that it's a predominantly African American cast,
Speaker 1: Like do you feel like one is better for mainstream
Speaker 1: exposure than the other, Like seeing an all black family
Speaker 1: versus like a black kid who's been positioned somewhere. I
Speaker 1: think you need it all. But the real change that
Speaker 1: I'm not saying, that I think really needs to happen
Speaker 1: is like, who are the executives, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: who are the people in the boardroom that are green
Speaker 1: lighting these shows? How how black? How many black executives
Speaker 1: are are are working at Netflix, or working at Disney,
Speaker 1: or working at Effects or you know, at these companies
Speaker 1: that are generating all of this content. That to me
Speaker 1: is actually fixing the system more so than like, oh,
Speaker 1: for for a year, we've got like some we're trending
Speaker 1: right now with like our African American content. I was
Speaker 1: just reading the New York Times this weekend, had a
Speaker 1: really good article about black directors from the nineties that
Speaker 1: got these one off you know, I mean, like I
Speaker 1: like It, like That, which is one of my favorite
Speaker 1: movies in high school. I was directed by a black
Speaker 1: woman Juice, you know, a Tupac Shquar. I mean, all
Speaker 1: these great movies. Obviously, John Singleton was from that generation,
Speaker 1: and he went on to have a very fruitful career
Speaker 1: r I P. But all of these other directors they
Speaker 1: got one shot and then that was it, and then
Speaker 1: they were kind of like left in this you know,
Speaker 1: very white male world to try to survive. And then
Speaker 1: when Hollywood was like, oh, these are making money, let's
Speaker 1: order ten thousand of them, it was great. But then
Speaker 1: for their second films when they made something like The
Speaker 1: inkwell that didn't do that well, it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: you're done, you know. And I think that that's what
Speaker 1: I'm nervous about with this era, with the me too
Speaker 1: movement and with you know, um, this movement to to
Speaker 1: put more people of color in roles and even as directors,
Speaker 1: because that's great, but we really need to see more
Speaker 1: women and more people of color like working at these companies.
Speaker 1: You know that, because those are the people that make
Speaker 1: that continue to make the decision, you know, moving forward well,
Speaker 1: and it's impactful behind the scenes that there's a certain
Speaker 1: expectation then where a lot of times, I think you
Speaker 1: can see it in anything that's being produced, it's a
Speaker 1: white person making a decision on behalf of a minority,
Speaker 1: on how the idea of representation should be, not necessarily
Speaker 1: how it would actually be. And so for a lot
Speaker 1: of the companies, like the big companies Netflix, Hulu, HBO,
Speaker 1: they're doing this, I think that there is more of
Speaker 1: an effort to put out content that is specific to
Speaker 1: those audiences, but not to make sure that there are
Speaker 1: people in place to ensure that it's actually right. It's
Speaker 1: it's gonna it's has staying power, it's going to stay,
Speaker 1: you know, Like when we were making this the Netflix
Speaker 1: show Dear White People, I believe that that Netflix canceled
Speaker 1: the show after two seasons. Yeah, and people went like
Speaker 1: lost their minds and then the show stayed. And that's great, right,
Speaker 1: But maybe if there were a couple more black executives
Speaker 1: at Netflix that could have been communicated without this like
Speaker 1: you know, like French warfare situation on Twitter, you know,
Speaker 1: to keep the to keep that film alive, and I mean,
Speaker 1: excuse me that that TV show alive. And I think
Speaker 1: you know, when you're especially when you're dealing with content
Speaker 1: that that is about race. Um, I think that it's
Speaker 1: important that as a director, I feel like it's actually
Speaker 1: critical that you have black executives that you can actually
Speaker 1: have like an unofficial conversation with where they understand the
Speaker 1: nuances of what's happening, so that you can make a
Speaker 1: better product. Right, you can speak to more people and
Speaker 1: when you're trying so there's a lot that gets lost
Speaker 1: in translation. And this New York Times article about these
Speaker 1: directors from the nineties, I think that that was something
Speaker 1: that they faced and then and then you know they
Speaker 1: their careers didn't have staying power. And that's really that's uh,
Speaker 1: that ain't cool. But I'm not saying that it is
Speaker 1: a fad. I just feel like the way we keep it,
Speaker 1: keep the momentum up is to look at it like
Speaker 1: as a whole, you know, wholeheartedly. But yeah, there's just
Speaker 1: got to be more mix up and mash up. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point though, to not leave
Speaker 1: it as is, to think of it as a long
Speaker 1: it's the long game. It's not like you know, filling
Speaker 1: up a tank. It's actually trying to figure out how
Speaker 1: you sustain this and and that should be the intention.
Speaker 1: And that's I mean, that's Hollywood. I mean, I think
Speaker 1: this business is went for Corman's World. Actually interviewed Jack
Speaker 1: Nicholson and he was reflecting on his time back in
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and seventies, and he was the one
Speaker 1: who like taught me this, which was, you know, if
Speaker 1: something something is successful in Hollywood, like people order literally
Speaker 1: ten thousand of them, they want the same thing over
Speaker 1: and over and over again, especially if they can do
Speaker 1: it cheap or for free. And um, that's just the
Speaker 1: nature of the beast, that the business that we all
Speaker 1: work in. And that's fine, but like, let's put some
Speaker 1: people with Let's let that beast and like the people
Speaker 1: behind the scenes look a little bit different and be
Speaker 1: from different worlds because maybe I don't know, the approach
Speaker 1: will be a little a little bit different and they
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to strike, what the next thing
Speaker 1: is that's going to rake. Um, Okay, well this has
Speaker 1: been very enlightening. I want to thank you Brandon for
Speaker 1: preparing for the podcasters all your questions and um, he's
Speaker 1: you're a great interviewer, Brandon, Alex, you're a great director,
Speaker 1: and Chelsea you're just you. Thank you, Gus, oh, thank
Speaker 1: you Brandon. Okay, Alex, your turn, Um, Bernice, thank you
Speaker 1: for being here. She's passed out on the floor and
Speaker 1: we will see you next week. This has been like
Speaker 1: will be the Death of Me Life Will be the
Speaker 1: Death of Me as a production of I Heart Radio.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to
Speaker 1: your favorite shows,