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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Chelsea Handler. Welcome to Life Will Be the

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Speaker 1: Death of Me, a production of I Heart Radio. Okay,

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Speaker 1: welcome to our podcast. This is Chelsea Joy Handler Brandon.

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Speaker 1: What's your middle name? Anthony Brandon? Anthony? Can I see

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Speaker 1: your last name on this? Okay? And Alexandra Stapleton, who

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Speaker 1: is my documentary director. She's a documentary filmmaker and she

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Speaker 1: happens to be the director of my latest film, which

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Speaker 1: will be released on Netflix on September called Hello Privilege.

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Speaker 1: It's me Chelsea, right. Is that the name we settled on?

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Speaker 1: That is the name. Okay. It was a long, long

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Speaker 1: road to shoot this documentary, very long, Okay. So Alexandra,

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Speaker 1: that's how would you like me to say your name?

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Speaker 1: Alex I call you alex Is it Alexandria, Alexandra, Drea, Dria?

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Speaker 1: But I like alex Okay. So people don't call you Alexandra. No,

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Speaker 1: they call you Alexandria, your mom. No one calls me

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Speaker 1: Alexandria because it's too fucking long. It's too freacking long.

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Speaker 1: And my first name is actually Kristen. Well, that's it's

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Speaker 1: nice to meet you. Then it's good, thank you. But

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Speaker 1: my middle name is Alexandria. I changed it to Alex

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Speaker 1: so people would think I was a man when I

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Speaker 1: first got started. Oh wow, that's smart. Did that help you?

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Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't think so. My first film,

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Speaker 1: I would go into you know, meet the interview subject

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Speaker 1: and they would say, we're waiting for Alex Stapleton and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, that's me, and they're like, no, we're waiting

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Speaker 1: for Alex Stapleton, the director. And so it didn't really

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Speaker 1: work because people still didn't associate me, a young woman

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Speaker 1: of color, you know, with being a director. So right,

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Speaker 1: I don't I don't know. Yeah, well it also helped.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it doesn't go a long way because once

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Speaker 1: they see you, then they're like, oh, you're a woman,

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Speaker 1: let's start disrespecting you. Exactly. Now, that's not every situation.

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Speaker 1: We don't want to I don't want to act like

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Speaker 1: that's what it's like all day long, but it is

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Speaker 1: for just last year, just last year personally. So tell

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Speaker 1: us about some of the films that you've directed to

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Speaker 1: people who aren't familiar with you are So the first

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Speaker 1: film that I directed was called It was about Roger Corman.

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Speaker 1: I don't know why I'm spa Corman's World is what

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Speaker 1: it was called. It was a very long time ago.

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Speaker 1: That was the first film I did. It took me

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Speaker 1: five years to make. I have a crush on him

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Speaker 1: while I did. You did Is he alive? He is alive?

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Speaker 1: Well then I still do Okay, great, just like Robert Muller. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there's the same majoringe, same age range. Maybe I think

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Speaker 1: Roger's a little bit. Roger's a little probably in his

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Speaker 1: nineties now, but that tall, kind of tall lankie in control,

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Speaker 1: smarter than me. Yes, he's Roger's a sexy guy. I

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Speaker 1: met you right after you came off of shooting something

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Speaker 1: with Lebron for HBO. So I show ran a series

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Speaker 1: right before coming on to this project with you called

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Speaker 1: shut Up and Dribble that Lebron executive produced with his

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Speaker 1: company spring Hill. That was a three part series for Showtime.

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Speaker 1: It was a great show Time. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: direct a lot of branded content. UM have done other

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Speaker 1: docuseries projects. We've I've worked with Eddie Schmidt. Yes, desmid

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Speaker 1: is the director from my Chelsea does doc series and yes,

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Speaker 1: he introduced us. Actually when I was starting my Netflix show,

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Speaker 1: you came in right We met then, so we came together.

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Speaker 1: This was kind of a lengthy process because we started

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Speaker 1: a project, then we kind of stopped down, and then

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Speaker 1: we started again. But we had to get all the

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Speaker 1: right kind of um parts and pieces in place, which

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Speaker 1: was kind of took a lot longer than we thought

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Speaker 1: it would because white people were so resilient or resistant,

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Speaker 1: resistant to speaking, resilient, so resistant to speaking about the

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Speaker 1: subject of white privilege, which is the subject we wanted

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Speaker 1: to encapsulate. Was coming from my own backyard, something that

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Speaker 1: I didn't realize I was a beneficiary of until I

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Speaker 1: was older. I thought I really worked hard for everything

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Speaker 1: I had, it was because of all my talent. And

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Speaker 1: then I realized, we'll wait a second. That can't be

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Speaker 1: only the only part of the equation. So we came together,

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Speaker 1: and you came and kind of had an idea of

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Speaker 1: where we should go and the issues to tackle, and

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Speaker 1: you gave me lots of reading material. One of the

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Speaker 1: books that I want to recommend People's White Rage by

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Speaker 1: Carol Anderson. I'm Done talking to White People about Race

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Speaker 1: is another one by a British woman, is a great

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Speaker 1: book that I read. And then Black Like Me is

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Speaker 1: a great book which is a guy that he puts

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Speaker 1: shoe polish on his face and he poses as a

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Speaker 1: black man in the South. In the time period of time,

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Speaker 1: was that sixties, back in the back in nineteen I

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Speaker 1: want to say early sixties, maybe even I think earlier

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Speaker 1: late fifties. So these were great reading tools for me

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Speaker 1: to get started. Obviously there's myriad options to read about

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Speaker 1: being a person of color or about white privilege or

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Speaker 1: white denial of white privilege. But anyway, you get the picture.

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Speaker 1: So what did you want to accomplish with this film

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Speaker 1: and what do you think we have accomplished with this film?

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Speaker 1: What were your goals and what's the reality I thought

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Speaker 1: we were going to in racism with this film. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen, but um, I know I really wanted

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Speaker 1: to talk to white people. I mean I think that

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Speaker 1: was a really big objective. Even when we first met

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Speaker 1: and we were talking about, um, the different ways that

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Speaker 1: this documentary about white privilege could shape up. I thought that,

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Speaker 1: you know, with all, with every kind of racial incident

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Speaker 1: that happens in the in this country, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: be it on Twitter, with like the Starbucks incident, in

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Speaker 1: white women especially calling the cops on people of color,

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Speaker 1: just because they're black, or even more extreme incidences when

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Speaker 1: things turned violent, you know that when white people commit

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Speaker 1: hate crimes. I feel like white people never really the

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Speaker 1: white perpetrators or the white people that are responsible for that,

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Speaker 1: they kind of don't ever talk to the media, Like

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Speaker 1: they go in hiding. Um, they get pushed, you know,

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Speaker 1: like social media comes after them. The media always gives

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Speaker 1: a voice to black people who have been hurt, and

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Speaker 1: that's great, like we need that. But I feel like,

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Speaker 1: why do these white people kind of get to just

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Speaker 1: disappear without having to really take responsibility for their actions,

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Speaker 1: and not only take responsibility, but but a real chance

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Speaker 1: to see if they can learn, um and understand really

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Speaker 1: like what they did, I don't know, just to to

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Speaker 1: to be responsible for their actions and to to maybe

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Speaker 1: to try to like curb that type of activity, you know,

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Speaker 1: for other white people to stop acting like that. And

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Speaker 1: um we were shut down. Um every white person that

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Speaker 1: I that we went up that we went after to

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Speaker 1: try to speak to them, um uh, to shine a

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Speaker 1: light on what they what they did, and to understand

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Speaker 1: like why why why do you feel so threatened by

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Speaker 1: black people? Why? Why what's going through your head? How

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Speaker 1: how were you raised? How how why is this an issue? Um,

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Speaker 1: no one really wanted to talk. So black people were

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Speaker 1: really were very much willing to talk to us, and

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Speaker 1: we got a lot of black people to participa in

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Speaker 1: this show, Carol Anderson, who was awesome. It was amazing.

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Speaker 1: It tell us a little bit about your background because

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Speaker 1: your mother is black. My mother is black, my father

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Speaker 1: is white. So I am technically by racial, but I

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Speaker 1: identify as a black woman. I grew up in the South,

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Speaker 1: in Houston, Texas. My mother is also a black lesbian,

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Speaker 1: so I grew up with a lesbian mom who is

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Speaker 1: in the South and got to kind of see a

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Speaker 1: very different way of having to deal with the world

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Speaker 1: through my mom and with race. My black family very

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Speaker 1: working class. My white family, they're very Texan, you know

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Speaker 1: a lot of Bubba's. But my family is really close.

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Speaker 1: So I think that what brings them together is this

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Speaker 1: struggle just you know, every single day to put food

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Speaker 1: on the table, to support their families, their kids, send

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Speaker 1: try to send a kid to college, you know, if possible,

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Speaker 1: just the regular things that most Americans want to do.

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Speaker 1: And I feel like, and this is something that we

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Speaker 1: talked about when we first met I feel like the

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Speaker 1: South gets a lot of like the attention when it

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Speaker 1: comes to race relations because everyone's like, oh, God, down South,

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Speaker 1: everything is so messed up. And that's what people that's

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Speaker 1: like the narrative of you know, liberals in California, especially

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Speaker 1: white people and in New York coastal elites, they feel

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Speaker 1: like they live in this kind of utopia, and people

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Speaker 1: in the South or you know, it's like the clan

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Speaker 1: is still coming and white people are it's segregation is

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Speaker 1: still alive and well, and Jim Crow is alive and well.

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Speaker 1: There are problems in the South, for sure, but I

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Speaker 1: have never lived in a more segregated environment than my

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Speaker 1: time in Los Angeles, right, Which is something that we

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Speaker 1: talked about in the film, because we realize that while

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Speaker 1: these coastal a liberal coastal liberal elites or liberal coastal

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Speaker 1: elites are okay with saying, you know, voicing their opinions

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Speaker 1: that they want everybody to be treated equally, that every

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Speaker 1: you know, everyone's progressive, everyone wants equal rights for everybody,

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Speaker 1: we still self segregate. We don't want to live next

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Speaker 1: door to black people because white people live in certain

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Speaker 1: areas and black people live in certain areas, and Asian

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Speaker 1: people live in certain areas, and Korean people live in

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Speaker 1: certain areas, not to be confused with Asian people, and

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Speaker 1: that everybody self segregates in this city as as they

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Speaker 1: do in many metropolis is if that's how you say

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Speaker 1: that plurally but metropoli if uh. But the other thing,

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Speaker 1: and then the opposite is true that black with people

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Speaker 1: and white people in the South have no problem living

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Speaker 1: together and community and having community get together. They just

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Speaker 1: don't want black people having the votes and the voices

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Speaker 1: that they have. So it's the opposite. There's two two

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Speaker 1: bad things, right, Yeah, I mean I think if we're generalizing,

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Speaker 1: I mean those are really big, big generalizations of of

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Speaker 1: the differences. I think that down South. Look, and I'm

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Speaker 1: from one part of the South, but I think that

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Speaker 1: the cultures do commingle more because, um, class is kind

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Speaker 1: of like more of an issue a lot of the times.

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Speaker 1: It's not to say that that, you know, as a

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Speaker 1: black woman growing up in the South, and especially like

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Speaker 1: what my mother went through that um my mother was

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Speaker 1: born into you know, during Jim Crow, Uh, the South

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Speaker 1: was completely segregated. Integration happened when she was in high school.

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Speaker 1: So I'm first generation integration. UM, I'd say for that

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Speaker 1: big leap to happen, it's actually pretty progressive compared to

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Speaker 1: Los Angeles or even New York. You know, I agree

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Speaker 1: with you. I think that people choose to self segregate

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Speaker 1: here a lot, but then they go to the ballot,

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Speaker 1: you know, or they feel like, oh, I'm I love Obama.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that was another thing that we connected over

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Speaker 1: that I think a lot of California white liberals, UM,

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Speaker 1: I felt that there was a race problem, um when

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump got elected, and that wasn't really news to

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Speaker 1: most people of color, and that was something that we

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Speaker 1: kind of talked about. You thought that, I mean, I

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Speaker 1: don't want to speak for you, but that please do.

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Speaker 1: It's better than I don't when I speak for myself,

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Speaker 1: but that you felt that we had kind of moved

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Speaker 1: past race right with Obama being a Laively, I thought

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Speaker 1: we were moved past racism and we were moving past uh, sexism.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I didn't even realize that sexism was the

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Speaker 1: issue that it was before this Me Too movement. Okay,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna take a quick break and we'll be right back. Brandon,

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Speaker 1: what about you? You grew up in South Dakota. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I grew up in the Midwest, and are there any

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Speaker 1: black people there? In South Dakota? There is a large

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Speaker 1: Native American population, so for us, that was the segregation

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Speaker 1: that you saw was the Native Americans who still live

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Speaker 1: on reservations. But what's interesting here Alex talked about the

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Speaker 1: race issue that sometimes it's out of sight, out of mind.

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Speaker 1: So you think these issues have been resolved, but then,

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Speaker 1: like I told you recently, I was in San Diego

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Speaker 1: with my boyfriend and someone drives down and yells fags

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Speaker 1: at us, and it's like, oh no, these things are

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Speaker 1: still happening. You just live in such a bubble that

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Speaker 1: you forget there are places outside of your area that

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Speaker 1: are still facing these issues. Friends are still going through things. Okay,

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Speaker 1: this is a question really quick. You are classying people

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Speaker 1: as black. What is appropriate African American or black? Before

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Speaker 1: I continue, I think it's up to the individual. Okay.

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Speaker 1: I prefer black, Okay, because I think African Americans sounds

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Speaker 1: really formal okay to me personally, But if if I

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Speaker 1: meant another black person or like I need to be

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Speaker 1: addressed as in Africa, Okay, Well, for like a default

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Speaker 1: white person who just wants to be respectful, Like what

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Speaker 1: is there one that we should go with? In your opinion,

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Speaker 1: I think you're safe with either. Okay, well, so like

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Speaker 1: African American friends who still say like yeah, like I'm

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Speaker 1: in l A and I'll go to a club and

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Speaker 1: like you get a second look like there's and so

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Speaker 1: it's not until someone says something because if you're not

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Speaker 1: personally affected by it, like I haven't been called a

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Speaker 1: fag since junior high and I'm in you know, liberal

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Speaker 1: San Diego thinking like their rainbow flags flying, that's never

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Speaker 1: gonna happen here for me walking down the street holding

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Speaker 1: a hand, but it still does, and it's important to

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Speaker 1: have those reminders. I think that these issues are not resolved,

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Speaker 1: like they are still happening and we need to be

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Speaker 1: aware of it. And San Diego is not as liberal

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Speaker 1: as l A. No, but you start, I mean it's

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Speaker 1: more pretty conservative. Yeah, I mean, well, okay, for me,

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Speaker 1: it was like you're being in are in a serious

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Speaker 1: like there are rainbow flags flowing right right, you're not

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Speaker 1: other gay couples that I'm not an anomaly and yeah,

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Speaker 1: but were you flying those rainbow flags off of your

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Speaker 1: own shoulder or were there, Actually, sorry, rainbow fireworks out

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Speaker 1: of my butt hole, Like that's how they how you

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Speaker 1: celebrate pride. Thank you, thank you very much. So to

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Speaker 1: that point, I think that there are a lot of

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Speaker 1: us who kind of assume, you know, when I say

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Speaker 1: us white people, oh, I've not seen racism lately, it's

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Speaker 1: not happening. And it is. And that's kind of like

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Speaker 1: the thing though, right, It's like white privilege is that

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Speaker 1: you don't have to deal with it on the day,

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Speaker 1: on a day to day but or notice it or no,

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Speaker 1: you're not looking out for racist acts because you're surrounded

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Speaker 1: mostly by people who look like you. Yeah, and as

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Speaker 1: a and I think that, I mean, it goes back

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Speaker 1: to why I think it was easier for us to

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Speaker 1: find black people to sit down and talk with us, because,

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Speaker 1: I mean, pretty much the culture black people as a culture,

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Speaker 1: it's a weird used to having these conversations. It's not um,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't like it doesn't make us nervous. Um. But

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Speaker 1: I think that we found and and I don't I

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Speaker 1: don't think it's a secret that white people kind of

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Speaker 1: like the hair stand up on their backs a little bit.

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Speaker 1: Like the minute that we get you know, people get

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Speaker 1: into a racial conversation or a conversation about race, because

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Speaker 1: my personal opinion is that and I even I mean,

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Speaker 1: I would say this even for my white family, like

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Speaker 1: white people tend to take things personal when we talk

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Speaker 1: about race. They tend to make it about them. It's

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Speaker 1: like the only time that they take on this weird,

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Speaker 1: But it's a classic defense mechanism. Anytime you're defending yourself,

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Speaker 1: you want to like lay blame, get blame off of you,

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Speaker 1: so which means that it doesn't mean you're guilty, but

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Speaker 1: you're acting like it. Yeah, when instead you can engage

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Speaker 1: somebody and say, oh, how can I be better educated

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Speaker 1: on the subject matter, Like you know, when you're talking

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Speaker 1: to somebody in the trance community, what would you like

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Speaker 1: me to refer to you as be generous and thoughtful

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Speaker 1: and consider it? And then then you can't make a mistake,

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Speaker 1: because how can that be a mistake. You can't ask

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Speaker 1: a question and then be attacked for wanting to know

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Speaker 1: the answer. That's just common courtesy. Well, that's why I'm

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Speaker 1: so excited for. This is the podcast I've been most

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Speaker 1: excited for because and so when you say, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: white people don't want to talk to us, like God,

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Speaker 1: that's so interesting because like I was so excited, like

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Speaker 1: I wrote questions on this morning, like I couldn't stop

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Speaker 1: thinking about Okay, so Alex, it's coming in, like how

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Speaker 1: can I grow as person? Like how can I be better?

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Speaker 1: And I think sometimes people take that on as like

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Speaker 1: they just want to cause but seeing the documentary be

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Speaker 1: produced and still realizing like no, there are always ways

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Speaker 1: to grow. And of course, with like the political climate

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Speaker 1: and in the media, you see so much more of

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Speaker 1: what the issues really are. And like one of them

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Speaker 1: I want to talk about later is Hallie Bailey being

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Speaker 1: cast as the Little Mermaid Disney, right, who is an

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Speaker 1: African American, you know, young girl, and people are up

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Speaker 1: in arms about it, and so I just haven't been

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Speaker 1: able to stop thinking about it. So today before I

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Speaker 1: came in and like this is like I'm so lucky

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Speaker 1: to be able to go and like talk about this

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Speaker 1: and nasty questions because that's the only way to get better.

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Speaker 1: So it's sad that like someone else who is a

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Speaker 1: Caucasian white would not want to take that opportunity. Well

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Speaker 1: that and I think I think the really big thing

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Speaker 1: and I hope that this documentary because I feel like

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Speaker 1: it's it's not like there's a you have to be

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Speaker 1: white or black or Latino or whatever to watch it.

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Speaker 1: But I think that it's because we're kind of using

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Speaker 1: your story, Chelsea, is like your story of white privilege.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it might resonate with white audiences. The

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Speaker 1: soundtrack should have been as I walked through life as

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Speaker 1: a white no problem most and nothing happened or everything happened.

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Speaker 1: But I feel like white people, I mean, it's not

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Speaker 1: a feeling, it's factual. White people need to talk to

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Speaker 1: white people more. You know, it's like men who don't

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Speaker 1: talk about their emotions. Yeah, it's that. It's that being

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Speaker 1: stuck and not a woman able to deal necessarily get

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Speaker 1: that man to talk about as emotions because there's so

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Speaker 1: much stuff attached to that. And I feel it's a

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Speaker 1: fact that that a lot of white people don't necessarily

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Speaker 1: hear the same message from a black person or you know,

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Speaker 1: a person of color communicating, hey, I was offended because

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Speaker 1: you did this, this and this and this, Whereas if

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Speaker 1: a white person enters the equation and talks to another

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Speaker 1: white person, it's like they can have this off the

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Speaker 1: record conversation, you know about how to be a better ally. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so I think it's a similar thing. I think people,

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Speaker 1: you know, white people are stuck, but with their lack

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Speaker 1: of I mean, not all white people. I think there's

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Speaker 1: obviously many that are trying to do a better job.

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Speaker 1: But I do think that it is similar to men

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Speaker 1: being stuck emotionally. You know, it's like that hump you

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Speaker 1: don't want to get over, and when you do get

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Speaker 1: over it, you're like, Okay, I'm so much more educated now.

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Speaker 1: You know, now I get it, So tell me about Okay,

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Speaker 1: because you forced me to reunite with my ex boyfriend

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Speaker 1: from high school, I forced you to basically, Yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 1: how would you frame that I don't want to meet

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Speaker 1: him again? And you know you didn't, Well, you were

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Speaker 1: very It's not that you didn't. I would that I

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Speaker 1: were nervous, yes, And I didn't know if he was

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Speaker 1: you know, how he was going to look at me.

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Speaker 1: I mean, he had spent fourteen years incarcerated, which I

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Speaker 1: had no idea because you told me I think I've

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Speaker 1: been out for fourteen years, so we flipped that information.

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Speaker 1: So that was a shocker. But I did go and

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Speaker 1: see him, and this was a guy who I dated

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Speaker 1: in high school. It was a drug dealer. His name

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Speaker 1: was Tayshawn. We got arrested a couple of times for pot. Well,

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Speaker 1: he got arrested. I was let go every time. I

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Speaker 1: got pregnant a couple of times, had two abortions, and

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Speaker 1: then I moved out, went back to my community and

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Speaker 1: never saw him again. And then he ended up being

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Speaker 1: put in the system for minor possession of marijuana. Now

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Speaker 1: it wasn't it wasn't a couple of yeah, So that

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Speaker 1: led to another one and which led to him being

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Speaker 1: found guilty of armed robbery. But he had had a

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Speaker 1: full scholarship to un l V, which he lost basically

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Speaker 1: because of being put into that system where I was

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Speaker 1: there for both times and was told by the police

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Speaker 1: to go back to my house wherever that was. And

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Speaker 1: when I was done with Taishan, when I woke up

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Speaker 1: and was like, okay, I'm not going to be in

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Speaker 1: this world. Actually, my father dragged me out of there

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Speaker 1: by my hair and was like, come back, You're not

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Speaker 1: staying here anymore. I was able to go back into

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Speaker 1: my life and go I didn't graduate high school. I

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Speaker 1: wasn't supposed to graduate high school, and time but because

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Speaker 1: of where I was from and because of my family,

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Speaker 1: and they bent the rules for me, and I went

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Speaker 1: to summer school and I graduated. I had lost all

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Speaker 1: credit of my junior year in high school and made

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Speaker 1: it up in a summer at my own pace. I

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Speaker 1: went to alternative school so I could graduate in time.

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Speaker 1: So I was afforded the luxuries that Taishan would never

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Speaker 1: ever have been afforded. And his life was pretty much

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Speaker 1: it's not ruined because he's out now and he has

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Speaker 1: five children, and he's got a job, and he's healthy

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Speaker 1: and he's not using. But his life went off the track,

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Speaker 1: whereas mine was fine and from an outside perspective, largely

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Speaker 1: due to the color of years. Again, yeah, you had

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Speaker 1: the complexion. I wouldn't say that was the Yeah, that's

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Speaker 1: what said. I had the complexion for the connection. And

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Speaker 1: then Tyshawn also thought we were going to get back

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Speaker 1: together and that he was coming to California to live

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Speaker 1: with me, and I had to remind him that he's

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Speaker 1: on parole and he can't leave the state of New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: I would have been a fun surprise for me. I

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Speaker 1: think that that was a really interesting point, like behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes, because when I met you. I feel like

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Speaker 1: the narrative in the story. I mean, you even open

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Speaker 1: this podcast up with white privilege. For you, I think

404
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Speaker 1: you kind of in your head thought that it started

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Speaker 1: when you got to l A and then bam, you know,

406
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:35,480
Speaker 1: the white privilege meter was on right you started, you

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Speaker 1: got this career. Then I became an elitist, which is

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Speaker 1: what I always wanted to be, which is, you know,

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Speaker 1: my goal was to have lots of money and cleaning

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Speaker 1: ladies and people who worked at my house because I

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Speaker 1: wanted the exact opposite experience of growing up in my

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Speaker 1: parents house. So that's that. So that's the truth of

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Speaker 1: the matter, and that's where I think that's where it

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Speaker 1: turned on for you. And I think with the film

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Speaker 1: what we were trying to accomplish was to say, no,

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Speaker 1: this this goes way deeper than that. And the fork

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Speaker 1: in the road probably started even before Tyshan. It definitely did,

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Speaker 1: but that was when you were still in high school

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Speaker 1: and look at the difference of how your life turned

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Speaker 1: out compared to his. And it's not to it's not

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Speaker 1: to exploit Tyshon. It's not to make it like oh,

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Speaker 1: he like you said, he's in a really good place

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Speaker 1: right now, and his family, like they're very happy and

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Speaker 1: he is not using and I think, you know, has

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Speaker 1: kind of come out of that, but he lost a

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Speaker 1: lot and it was interesting for me to kind of

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Speaker 1: try to peel back the layers a little bit too,

428
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 1: for you to see like, oh no, this goes way

429
00:21:39,080 --> 00:21:41,840
Speaker 1: deeper than just being in California with my comedy career,

430
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,600
Speaker 1: you know. And I think that's kind of runs parallel

431
00:21:45,640 --> 00:21:47,760
Speaker 1: to how I think white people think about race. Like

432
00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 1: you kind of white people are like, oh well, I

433
00:21:51,280 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 1: worked really hard for this, and Okay, I can kind

434
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:55,679
Speaker 1: of see what you're saying a little bit, you know,

435
00:21:55,720 --> 00:21:58,040
Speaker 1: when it comes to like my job or or you know,

436
00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 1: they want to kind of they can accept white privilege

437
00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:05,840
Speaker 1: and small doses, but white privileges it's it's yeah, it's huge,

438
00:22:05,880 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: It systemic. It's you know, it goes all the way

439
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:11,600
Speaker 1: down to like too when we were babies in a hospital,

440
00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's so rooted in like

441
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,040
Speaker 1: our everyday life. You know, we're judged by our sex

442
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,480
Speaker 1: that we are, as well as the race that we are,

443
00:22:20,520 --> 00:22:22,040
Speaker 1: and like where we come from. I mean, all of

444
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 1: these things are factors and how our lives are shaped.

445
00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:28,480
Speaker 1: We didn't get really deep when our film. We weren't

446
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:31,679
Speaker 1: able to cover every topic, but I thought that it

447
00:22:31,720 --> 00:22:35,600
Speaker 1: was really interesting that your story, also with Tyshan and

448
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:38,639
Speaker 1: what you experienced in high school, also was reflective of

449
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 1: what was happening in the state of New Jersey. And

450
00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,640
Speaker 1: to go back to this whole false narrative that everything's

451
00:22:44,680 --> 00:22:47,879
Speaker 1: okay on the coasts and everything's fucked up in the south.

452
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,760
Speaker 1: New Jersey is like one of the worst states when

453
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:53,960
Speaker 1: it comes to the disparity of white and teens of color,

454
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,280
Speaker 1: but specifically black teens that are incarcerated. I think the

455
00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:01,280
Speaker 1: national average, and we have to this is a fact checking,

456
00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: I believe the national averages seven to one, and in

457
00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:08,320
Speaker 1: New Jersey it was thirty to one. I think it's

458
00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 1: going to be a shock to people that New Jersey

459
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 1: is actually very messed up when it comes to they

460
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:16,360
Speaker 1: have a lot of racism in New Jersey and they're

461
00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:18,280
Speaker 1: and they're dealing with it on a systemic level, and

462
00:23:18,280 --> 00:23:21,080
Speaker 1: there's people they're fighting the good fight to do that work.

463
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,840
Speaker 1: But so it's no coincidence that you know, your story

464
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 1: actually proves the statistics you've got when you encounter law enforcement.

465
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: It was like, Oh, this poor girl needs to go

466
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:34,840
Speaker 1: back to hurt people, whereas Tyshawn is you know, thought

467
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,520
Speaker 1: of as a perpetrator, you know, no second chances. And

468
00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:40,560
Speaker 1: that was something that Ryan when we sat down with

469
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,160
Speaker 1: with Ryan and New Jersey, he I think he really

470
00:23:43,240 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: was good at explaining that for too many black and

471
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 1: brown kids and teens, there are no second chances. You know,

472
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: there are no um, there's no there's no room to

473
00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:57,800
Speaker 1: mess up. And I think that is something that's armored.

474
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:01,520
Speaker 1: That are a reality that I think that I wear,

475
00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 1: and that people of color where all the time that

476
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: we don't always if I mess up on a job,

477
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,920
Speaker 1: it might like devastate my career, you know. And for

478
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: a white male especially, I would say even more so

479
00:24:12,119 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 1: than a white woman, it's like, oh, you know, we're

480
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,400
Speaker 1: very forgiving of mistakes, and especially with teens and with

481
00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,480
Speaker 1: young people and with kids, I think that you've got

482
00:24:22,520 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: a lot of opportunities to correct yourself. Yeah. I mean,

483
00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: there was a judge the other day that excused a

484
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:31,639
Speaker 1: boy that was accused of right because he had good grades. Really,

485
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:33,680
Speaker 1: there was an article I read. I mean, I don't

486
00:24:33,680 --> 00:24:35,880
Speaker 1: know what came of the case. But yeah, he was saying, well,

487
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:38,880
Speaker 1: he should get lesser sentenced because he's doing really well

488
00:24:38,880 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 1: in school and he had a scholarship, as if that

489
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,360
Speaker 1: exonerates you. What is your experience working as a female

490
00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:48,040
Speaker 1: black director. I've been working. I dropped out of school.

491
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: My father doesn't know that, but I dropped out of

492
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,760
Speaker 1: school when I was nineteen. Well that's how you become

493
00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 1: a director. Congratulations, And I'm turning forty. Congratulations for twenty years.

494
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 1: And I started out from the bottom, you know, as

495
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: a p A and like in turn actually and worked

496
00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 1: my way up. I don't think I thought about race,

497
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: to be honest, in my twenties a lot, because it

498
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,000
Speaker 1: was just so hard. I mean, I was living in

499
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,840
Speaker 1: New York and it was just hard to like keep

500
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: the lights on. Like I just I don't know. I

501
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,239
Speaker 1: was just on an autopilot and I didn't really think

502
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 1: about being a woman. And I don't think I thought

503
00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: about my race often. It wasn't until like after my

504
00:25:24,680 --> 00:25:28,960
Speaker 1: first film that I started to notice this weird kind

505
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:31,679
Speaker 1: of difference with all of my colleague, like all the

506
00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:34,000
Speaker 1: guys that were kind of that we all started at

507
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: the same time and when they made their first feature.

508
00:25:37,280 --> 00:25:40,200
Speaker 1: Their careers started and they were get you know, they

509
00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: were making they were directing commercials and getting TV offers

510
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,480
Speaker 1: and and I was like, how is this magically happening?

511
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 1: And then my film, you know, I'm not saying Corman's

512
00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 1: World is like going to blow you away, but it

513
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 1: got into the can Film Festival, it competed at Sundance.

514
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,359
Speaker 1: We got bought. I mean that's a big deal for

515
00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: an indie. Like it's a great film. I've seen it, well,

516
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:03,239
Speaker 1: thank you. And I couldn't get a job. And it

517
00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,040
Speaker 1: was so weird because I had a lawyer and I

518
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 1: just remember her like you need to do this, and

519
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:09,640
Speaker 1: you need to do that, and I like, I need

520
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:11,480
Speaker 1: to pay my rent next month, Like I you know,

521
00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 1: I don't what am I missing? Like how is everyone

522
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 1: else continuing to work and and and and to grow

523
00:26:17,760 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: and excel? And I'm not. And I'm not going to

524
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: say that that was because I was a black woman,

525
00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:26,760
Speaker 1: but I started to my eyes were kind of open

526
00:26:26,840 --> 00:26:28,679
Speaker 1: to a little bit of a different reality that I

527
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 1: felt that I was facing. And I probably feel like

528
00:26:31,680 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 1: it was a little bit more of just being a woman,

529
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: because I think that this business, I think it's different

530
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: for black men than it is for black women. You know.

531
00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:41,359
Speaker 1: I think that to be male in Hollywood as a

532
00:26:41,400 --> 00:26:44,359
Speaker 1: director is a huge advantage, and it still is. I

533
00:26:44,400 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 1: think right now it's great to see so many Black

534
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:52,840
Speaker 1: women and so many women just in general get these

535
00:26:52,840 --> 00:26:56,000
Speaker 1: opportunities to direct on television shows and to get features

536
00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: and to get you know, big budgeted features off the ground.

537
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:01,959
Speaker 1: But see how long it lasts. Do you think it's

538
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:05,720
Speaker 1: women like Shonda Rhymes that have Like to me, she

539
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 1: was one of the first big mainstream You saw her everywhere,

540
00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:11,359
Speaker 1: she had hit shows, a contract with a network. Was

541
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,240
Speaker 1: there a turning point that you did see that You're like,

542
00:27:13,440 --> 00:27:15,600
Speaker 1: it's this person or it was this event that now

543
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: diversity in African America for black people. I think it

544
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:24,560
Speaker 1: was Ava. I think she was, yeah, diverne. I think

545
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:29,160
Speaker 1: that she because Shonda Rhymes is like doing the scripted

546
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:32,720
Speaker 1: television kind of thing and is and I think that

547
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 1: she's great and that's amazing. It just didn't really affect me.

548
00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 1: I met Ava Sundance with Corman actually, and I was

549
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,720
Speaker 1: on a panel because it's Sundance. That year I was

550
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,040
Speaker 1: a black female director with the movie and competition and

551
00:27:46,480 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 1: I wasn't invited to any of the black events because

552
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: for some reason, no one thought that I was black.

553
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: I don't know if it was because of the movie

554
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: that I did or whatever. And I wrote to that

555
00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 1: I think it's like the Black House at Sundance. And

556
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,119
Speaker 1: I wrote to them, I was like, you're doing all

557
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: these events for all the black directors, that's dance and

558
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,520
Speaker 1: I haven't, like, can I come? And they were like,

559
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:08,320
Speaker 1: oh shit, like we thought you were Native American. I didn't.

560
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,040
Speaker 1: I don't know what they thought I was. I don't

561
00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:13,400
Speaker 1: think they thought I was a woman either. That's where

562
00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 1: the name. That's where it happened to me as well

563
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: on the phone. On the phone, Um, but Ava did

564
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:21,640
Speaker 1: I did it. So anyway, they invited me to come

565
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 1: and speak at this on this panel and Ava was there,

566
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:24,399
Speaker 1: and that was the first time I met her. And

567
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: this is before she was soup. She blew up. And

568
00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:31,640
Speaker 1: Ava's magical because she doesn't just take success for her.

569
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: She brings everybody with her and I and she was

570
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:36,720
Speaker 1: doing that then, like no one knew who I was.

571
00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:38,719
Speaker 1: I was just like young. I was like twenty eight

572
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: years old and I was on a panel with you know,

573
00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: a black audience talking about Roger Corman and it was

574
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: not hitting, and Ava was like, um, Ava really had

575
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:52,320
Speaker 1: my back. And then she did press after that, and

576
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 1: she kept in all of her interviews, she kept saying,

577
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 1: there's not it's not just me, there's other directors that

578
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: are right behind me, and she would put me in

579
00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 1: this and that you know, of of of folks. And

580
00:29:02,560 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: I think that's when I started to kind of the

581
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: light went on for me. And I still think she's

582
00:29:07,080 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: doing that, you know, like right now, I'm sure running

583
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:13,600
Speaker 1: a series for effects. And so Cheryl Danier, who's you know,

584
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: an amazing black lesbian filmmaker, is the director producer on

585
00:29:18,280 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: Queen Sugar, and Ava's doing it on Queen Sugar. You know,

586
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: she she only brings women to the table, and I

587
00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 1: think this season it's it's predominantly women of color that

588
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:33,960
Speaker 1: she's giving rise to. And then that way these women

589
00:29:33,960 --> 00:29:36,120
Speaker 1: can go out and go get more jobs, you know,

590
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,280
Speaker 1: to keep the lights on in their house and to

591
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: grow as a director and to to get better at

592
00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: their craft. And I have to say, Chelsea, like I

593
00:29:43,600 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: think I totally completely mean this. I feel like you're

594
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:48,880
Speaker 1: a person that does that. I feel like you're a

595
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,720
Speaker 1: giant champion for women. I think for you to let

596
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: me do this film and to hire me really was

597
00:29:56,320 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: a very personal thing for me, because it's you don't

598
00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: get those opportunities all the time, and it's not like

599
00:30:05,080 --> 00:30:07,720
Speaker 1: I had done five million things on Race. Yeah. Well,

600
00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: I'm glad that we found each other. I'm glad that

601
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 1: we met, and I'm glad that we had a good

602
00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,600
Speaker 1: working relationship together. And I mean it was a big

603
00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:17,680
Speaker 1: learning experience for me. I'm only sad that, you know,

604
00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,800
Speaker 1: you feel like you want to tackle a subject and

605
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 1: you just scratch the surface, and you really want to

606
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: dig into something. Because when I did my original docuseries

607
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: for Netflix, the Race one was the one that I

608
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: found most compelling personally and like as a viewer. So

609
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 1: I wanted to scratch the surface even further, which we did.

610
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:37,040
Speaker 1: But there's just so much to do, and so in

611
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: so many places and directions to go in it's hard

612
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: to focus that attention, and the world was happening in

613
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:46,680
Speaker 1: real time. And you know, I think that even in

614
00:30:46,720 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: the in the span of like when we were making

615
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,480
Speaker 1: this film, I feel like the United States of America

616
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 1: changed so dract i mean, it's still changing so drastically

617
00:30:55,560 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 1: and it's hard to keep up with. I mean, when

618
00:30:57,920 --> 00:30:59,520
Speaker 1: we were first doing this, I know that we spoke

619
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: a lot about we did not want to include forty five,

620
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,080
Speaker 1: you know, in the I don't even like saying his name.

621
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: I'd like to say to all of my listeners I

622
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: wanted some acknowledgment for how a few times I've said

623
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 1: his name in this podcast. I barely talk about the

624
00:31:13,120 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 1: guy anymore. So I just want you to know that

625
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:22,280
Speaker 1: I've been touched and healed. Hallelujah, sister, and we to

626
00:31:22,360 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: YouTube Brandon a men sister. Okay, well, this sounds like

627
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 1: a good time to take a break. We don't really

628
00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,520
Speaker 1: talk about him at all. I don't even think he's

629
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: mentioned in the film at one point because he's not

630
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:37,720
Speaker 1: the problem. He's not the problems symptom. And I was

631
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,960
Speaker 1: confused in the beginning that he was the problem. He

632
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:42,680
Speaker 1: is not the problem. He was a catalyst. His election

633
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 1: was a catalyst for an awakening I think with a

634
00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 1: lot of white folks, Yes, and that is a good

635
00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,000
Speaker 1: thing if we can get to the next level, which

636
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:54,160
Speaker 1: is like he is no different. I mean, he he's

637
00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: just he's a symptom. Exactly what you said. He is

638
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:59,040
Speaker 1: no different than you know what this country has faced

639
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, dating back to hundreds

640
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: of years ago. And I think it's missed opportunity to

641
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:10,200
Speaker 1: make race conversations in this day and age about and

642
00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:15,080
Speaker 1: not about real things, you know, real talk, Um, how

643
00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 1: do we change the laws? And that was another really

644
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: big thing I think that we forgot to mention, was

645
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:22,160
Speaker 1: you know, I think that the challenging part was because

646
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: this is such a giant topic, where do you how

647
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: do you like hone it in? Um? And yeah, your

648
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: personal story, we followed that, but I also think that

649
00:32:32,000 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: your work. I think people were will be surprised. Even

650
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 1: when we were shooting, I think people were. I saw

651
00:32:39,200 --> 00:32:41,800
Speaker 1: that for you, it's felt like there was a connection

652
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:44,760
Speaker 1: between race and voting because you are so invested with

653
00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: getting people out to go vote, and that seemed like

654
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:51,480
Speaker 1: this kind of interesting like intersection, you know, when talking

655
00:32:51,520 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 1: about white privilege, because if you don't vote, if you

656
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: don't have a SNL and election, you can't change the

657
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: systemic ways that the government and the laws are hurting

658
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,760
Speaker 1: you as a community. And I you know, I know

659
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: it's not like the sexiest subjects, you know, to talk

660
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:10,560
Speaker 1: about voter suppression and all of that, But I actually

661
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 1: think it's the foundation of UM and it's educational because

662
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:17,240
Speaker 1: people some people don't believe that voter suppression is happening,

663
00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,040
Speaker 1: and people don't understand how that how it can happen,

664
00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: or they don't understand what jerrymandering is. All the things

665
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: that I you know that I learned after the election.

666
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 1: You know, so many people UM don't know about and

667
00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 1: you don't realize that there's a huge lack of education

668
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: in this country about those things. So voting is the

669
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 1: tool that you have to use. It is the only

670
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: way to have your voice heard, and which is hard

671
00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:41,959
Speaker 1: for people when they get turned away at voting polls

672
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 1: or voting places and told to go somewhere else after

673
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 1: they've you know, I remember that story that Oprah told,

674
00:33:47,800 --> 00:33:51,000
Speaker 1: Remember when she was campaigning for Stacy Abrahams. She was

675
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 1: talking about that a man who went to four different

676
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:57,400
Speaker 1: voting places and walked and walked, and she said, every

677
00:33:57,400 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 1: time I vote, it's for that man who got turned

678
00:33:59,560 --> 00:34:02,239
Speaker 1: away from four different places and he'd walk something like,

679
00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: you know, eight miles. No white person will ever walk

680
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,920
Speaker 1: eight miles to vote. That hasn't happened once. Just like

681
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: women don't masturbate into plants, white people don't walk to

682
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: the bulls, and if they do, it's around the corner. Brandon,

683
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: did you have any follow up questions? I have a

684
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:24,360
Speaker 1: lot that I would like to get into it. Because

685
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,719
Speaker 1: it's you know, alex Is, it's in media. I'm just

686
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: going to take a quick shower. Um, great, okay, Well,

687
00:34:29,719 --> 00:34:31,040
Speaker 1: so back to the Little Mermaid. One of the things

688
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: I want to touch on is that there's a lot

689
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:37,279
Speaker 1: of feedback right now of a cartoon character who is

690
00:34:37,320 --> 00:34:40,320
Speaker 1: white with red hair being recast as an African American girl.

691
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: So obviously the aesthetic is completely different. And when I

692
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,440
Speaker 1: first saw the news, my initial reaction, as you know,

693
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:50,239
Speaker 1: someone with nostalgia towards The Mermaid my favorite Disney movie

694
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 1: is is that she just didn't match what you're conceptualized

695
00:34:58,000 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: idea of her should be based on the cartoon. Now,

696
00:35:01,960 --> 00:35:05,040
Speaker 1: Hallie Bailey looks exactly like the Little Mermaid in African

697
00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,480
Speaker 1: American forms. She's got the lips, the nose, the big eyes,

698
00:35:07,480 --> 00:35:09,440
Speaker 1: like she looks like a Disney princess. So I had

699
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 1: to take a second to think that anyone can play

700
00:35:11,640 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: that role. It's a fairy tale. It's a fantasy, and

701
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:17,160
Speaker 1: mermaids aren't real, but there's still that like momentary, like

702
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: it should be a white girl with red hair, even

703
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 1: though I know that's wrong. So like what feedback, Like

704
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,520
Speaker 1: how can we reconcile our ideals of like that certain

705
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,879
Speaker 1: roles should be played by certain people, or that now

706
00:35:27,920 --> 00:35:30,759
Speaker 1: they're saying there's a lot of like necessary diversity, that

707
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: like people are just being put in positions or like

708
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: roles are being recast just so they're African American or

709
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,160
Speaker 1: just so they're Asian, or just so their Native American.

710
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:41,239
Speaker 1: And I had a friend who said, oh, now I

711
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,280
Speaker 1: can't get a job because everyone's hiring you know, minorities

712
00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,960
Speaker 1: and women. Right, He's like, and they're not qualified to

713
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,680
Speaker 1: do these jobs. I'm they're not more qualified than I am.

714
00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 1: I'm like, yes, but you've had an advantage by being male, right,

715
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:56,759
Speaker 1: so now it's time to give it up a little bit.

716
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 1: And people don't want to deal with that because again,

717
00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:03,040
Speaker 1: quality feels like something taken to some people who have

718
00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 1: had it their whole life. And I feel I mean, yeah,

719
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 1: I mean the statistics should still prove that white men

720
00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,920
Speaker 1: are totally okay in the United States of America. Actually

721
00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: in the world, they're they're doing just fine. Um. I

722
00:36:17,880 --> 00:36:23,040
Speaker 1: think that the that the representation for the Disney Princess

723
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 1: is kind of multi pronged because I grew up with

724
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: with you know, aerial Ariel aeriel uh Ariela, that's where

725
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: I want to go, but I know that actually it's

726
00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 1: arial short for Ariela. Oh my god. Um. I grew

727
00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:47,319
Speaker 1: up with that white princess too, and I think that

728
00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: that's sad that like there's this whole dre of not

729
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 1: just instead of celebration, instead of saying yeah great, great

730
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:57,320
Speaker 1: black girl gets it, this is awesome. People are like pissed.

731
00:36:57,880 --> 00:37:01,240
Speaker 1: It's kind of crazy. And if there's like Facebook groups

732
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: being set up to take her dance, I mean it's nonsense. Um. Well,

733
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: first of all, no one should be that committed to

734
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: any any dictionalized character. Sounds like you are as committed

735
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,359
Speaker 1: as one can be. Well, because in my head, as

736
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: that six year old kid watching that movie, you have

737
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: an expectation. But I'm not going to start like I

738
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,759
Speaker 1: don't give a ship like she First of all, she

739
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,680
Speaker 1: has an incredible singing like she's going to kill it

740
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:25,240
Speaker 1: as a little mermaid, but there was still that momentary like, oh,

741
00:37:25,320 --> 00:37:27,279
Speaker 1: it should be a white girl with red hair, but

742
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: you're by you just being honest about that weird kind

743
00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 1: of shift in your head and being able to vocalize that,

744
00:37:33,680 --> 00:37:35,840
Speaker 1: and like life goes on and you were able to

745
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:38,520
Speaker 1: kind of like reset and go, oh, you know right,

746
00:37:38,600 --> 00:37:40,319
Speaker 1: like I can't wait. I can't wait to see her

747
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 1: in the role. The same way my favorite version of

748
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:46,799
Speaker 1: any Disney movie Cinderella with Brandy and Whitney Houston, like

749
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 1: I still watch it, like I still will. Smith is Aladdin.

750
00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:51,720
Speaker 1: I didn't like that, but I didn't like the movie,

751
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:54,239
Speaker 1: Like it wasn't because of him, Like I just seem

752
00:37:54,280 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 1: to have missed a lot of nothing, nothing about what

753
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:01,520
Speaker 1: you guys. You might as well be speaking North Korean. Um.

754
00:38:01,560 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: I think that, uh you know, I think that if

755
00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:06,759
Speaker 1: you get if it stings for a second, get over it,

756
00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 1: you know, I mean that would be my what my

757
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 1: opinion about two people who are which is actually a

758
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,760
Speaker 1: very honest, natural reaction. It's a it's a better reaction

759
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,680
Speaker 1: than to you know, it's almost a more organic reaction

760
00:38:19,719 --> 00:38:22,799
Speaker 1: than to go yes, that's great. Yeah, I get more

761
00:38:22,840 --> 00:38:25,760
Speaker 1: worried about the white person that shows me this article

762
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: and it's like, hey, I just want you to know

763
00:38:27,440 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: disease really doing a good job. They've gotten. You know,

764
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: aerial is now black. Aren't you excited? And they're bringing

765
00:38:32,239 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 1: that to me. I have nothing to do with like

766
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: the I mean that would actually be more alarming than

767
00:38:37,160 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 1: someone like yourself saying you know, I saw this and

768
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,080
Speaker 1: I was like kind of like weirded out by my

769
00:38:41,120 --> 00:38:43,799
Speaker 1: own brain that in my subconscious mind, I was kind

770
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:46,319
Speaker 1: of like, well, not adolests and expectation again, like that's

771
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:48,120
Speaker 1: what it was. But again, a lot of characters are

772
00:38:48,120 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: being repurposed. They're actively trying to incorporate diversity. So what

773
00:38:52,120 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: is your take on shows that are doing that, Like

774
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: a lot of Netflix shows like Every Table has an

775
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:58,760
Speaker 1: Asian and African American a native like in a white person,

776
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:01,440
Speaker 1: which I think is eight. How does that compare to

777
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: TV shows like Blackish that it's a predominantly African American cast,

778
00:39:05,320 --> 00:39:08,880
Speaker 1: Like do you feel like one is better for mainstream

779
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: exposure than the other, Like seeing an all black family

780
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: versus like a black kid who's been positioned somewhere. I

781
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: think you need it all. But the real change that

782
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 1: I'm not saying, that I think really needs to happen

783
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: is like, who are the executives, you know what I mean,

784
00:39:21,960 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: who are the people in the boardroom that are green

785
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,279
Speaker 1: lighting these shows? How how black? How many black executives

786
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,960
Speaker 1: are are are working at Netflix, or working at Disney,

787
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: or working at Effects or you know, at these companies

788
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 1: that are generating all of this content. That to me

789
00:39:35,280 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 1: is actually fixing the system more so than like, oh,

790
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 1: for for a year, we've got like some we're trending

791
00:39:41,800 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: right now with like our African American content. I was

792
00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,000
Speaker 1: just reading the New York Times this weekend, had a

793
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: really good article about black directors from the nineties that

794
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 1: got these one off you know, I mean, like I

795
00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:55,720
Speaker 1: like It, like That, which is one of my favorite

796
00:39:55,719 --> 00:39:57,960
Speaker 1: movies in high school. I was directed by a black

797
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,319
Speaker 1: woman Juice, you know, a Tupac Shquar. I mean, all

798
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: these great movies. Obviously, John Singleton was from that generation,

799
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 1: and he went on to have a very fruitful career

800
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 1: r I P. But all of these other directors they

801
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: got one shot and then that was it, and then

802
00:40:13,960 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: they were kind of like left in this you know,

803
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:21,000
Speaker 1: very white male world to try to survive. And then

804
00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: when Hollywood was like, oh, these are making money, let's

805
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: order ten thousand of them, it was great. But then

806
00:40:26,880 --> 00:40:29,799
Speaker 1: for their second films when they made something like The

807
00:40:29,840 --> 00:40:31,879
Speaker 1: inkwell that didn't do that well, it was like, oh,

808
00:40:31,920 --> 00:40:34,799
Speaker 1: you're done, you know. And I think that that's what

809
00:40:34,880 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 1: I'm nervous about with this era, with the me too

810
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:41,480
Speaker 1: movement and with you know, um, this movement to to

811
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: put more people of color in roles and even as directors,

812
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: because that's great, but we really need to see more

813
00:40:51,560 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: women and more people of color like working at these companies.

814
00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 1: You know that, because those are the people that make

815
00:40:58,600 --> 00:41:01,839
Speaker 1: that continue to make the decision, you know, moving forward well,

816
00:41:01,880 --> 00:41:04,360
Speaker 1: and it's impactful behind the scenes that there's a certain

817
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 1: expectation then where a lot of times, I think you

818
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: can see it in anything that's being produced, it's a

819
00:41:08,840 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: white person making a decision on behalf of a minority,

820
00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: on how the idea of representation should be, not necessarily

821
00:41:15,080 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 1: how it would actually be. And so for a lot

822
00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:22,240
Speaker 1: of the companies, like the big companies Netflix, Hulu, HBO,

823
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: they're doing this, I think that there is more of

824
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 1: an effort to put out content that is specific to

825
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,040
Speaker 1: those audiences, but not to make sure that there are

826
00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,640
Speaker 1: people in place to ensure that it's actually right. It's

827
00:41:33,719 --> 00:41:36,320
Speaker 1: it's gonna it's has staying power, it's going to stay,

828
00:41:36,480 --> 00:41:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, Like when we were making this the Netflix

829
00:41:40,680 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 1: show Dear White People, I believe that that Netflix canceled

830
00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: the show after two seasons. Yeah, and people went like

831
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: lost their minds and then the show stayed. And that's great, right,

832
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:55,399
Speaker 1: But maybe if there were a couple more black executives

833
00:41:55,480 --> 00:41:58,200
Speaker 1: at Netflix that could have been communicated without this like

834
00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: you know, like French warfare situation on Twitter, you know,

835
00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:04,759
Speaker 1: to keep the to keep that film alive, and I mean,

836
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:07,359
Speaker 1: excuse me that that TV show alive. And I think

837
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, when you're especially when you're dealing with content

838
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:13,680
Speaker 1: that that is about race. Um, I think that it's

839
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:17,120
Speaker 1: important that as a director, I feel like it's actually

840
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,400
Speaker 1: critical that you have black executives that you can actually

841
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: have like an unofficial conversation with where they understand the

842
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:26,719
Speaker 1: nuances of what's happening, so that you can make a

843
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,399
Speaker 1: better product. Right, you can speak to more people and

844
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:32,879
Speaker 1: when you're trying so there's a lot that gets lost

845
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:36,319
Speaker 1: in translation. And this New York Times article about these

846
00:42:36,360 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 1: directors from the nineties, I think that that was something

847
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:41,319
Speaker 1: that they faced and then and then you know they

848
00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 1: their careers didn't have staying power. And that's really that's uh,

849
00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:47,960
Speaker 1: that ain't cool. But I'm not saying that it is

850
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,160
Speaker 1: a fad. I just feel like the way we keep it,

851
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 1: keep the momentum up is to look at it like

852
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 1: as a whole, you know, wholeheartedly. But yeah, there's just

853
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,719
Speaker 1: got to be more mix up and mash up. Yeah.

854
00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 1: I think that's a good point though, to not leave

855
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:04,080
Speaker 1: it as is, to think of it as a long

856
00:43:04,120 --> 00:43:06,360
Speaker 1: it's the long game. It's not like you know, filling

857
00:43:06,440 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 1: up a tank. It's actually trying to figure out how

858
00:43:09,440 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 1: you sustain this and and that should be the intention.

859
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,839
Speaker 1: And that's I mean, that's Hollywood. I mean, I think

860
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: this business is went for Corman's World. Actually interviewed Jack

861
00:43:20,080 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 1: Nicholson and he was reflecting on his time back in

862
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:25,520
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and seventies, and he was the one

863
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:29,080
Speaker 1: who like taught me this, which was, you know, if

864
00:43:29,080 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: something something is successful in Hollywood, like people order literally

865
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,160
Speaker 1: ten thousand of them, they want the same thing over

866
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,200
Speaker 1: and over and over again, especially if they can do

867
00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:41,800
Speaker 1: it cheap or for free. And um, that's just the

868
00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 1: nature of the beast, that the business that we all

869
00:43:43,719 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: work in. And that's fine, but like, let's put some

870
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 1: people with Let's let that beast and like the people

871
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:51,360
Speaker 1: behind the scenes look a little bit different and be

872
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: from different worlds because maybe I don't know, the approach

873
00:43:54,400 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: will be a little a little bit different and they

874
00:43:57,040 --> 00:43:59,040
Speaker 1: don't know what's going to strike, what the next thing

875
00:43:59,160 --> 00:44:03,080
Speaker 1: is that's going to rake. Um, Okay, well this has

876
00:44:03,120 --> 00:44:05,480
Speaker 1: been very enlightening. I want to thank you Brandon for

877
00:44:05,560 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: preparing for the podcasters all your questions and um, he's

878
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: you're a great interviewer, Brandon, Alex, you're a great director,

879
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:17,279
Speaker 1: and Chelsea you're just you. Thank you, Gus, oh, thank

880
00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:21,040
Speaker 1: you Brandon. Okay, Alex, your turn, Um, Bernice, thank you

881
00:44:21,080 --> 00:44:23,359
Speaker 1: for being here. She's passed out on the floor and

882
00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: we will see you next week. This has been like

883
00:44:26,360 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 1: will be the Death of Me Life Will be the

884
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 1: Death of Me as a production of I Heart Radio.

885
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the I

886
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: your favorite shows,