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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace the Idaho for murder details.

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Speaker 1: If the world had known what we know now, there

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Speaker 1: would never have been a Brian Coberger plead deal. This

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Speaker 1: would have gone to the death penalty. I'm Nancy Grace.

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Speaker 1: This is crime Stories. I want to thank you for

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Speaker 1: being with us.

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Speaker 2: Some of these might be familiar, so set up straight

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Speaker 2: when I talk to you. How was your life right

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Speaker 2: before you murdered my sisters? Did you prepare for the

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Speaker 2: crime before leaving your apartment? Please detail what you were

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Speaker 2: thinking and feeling at this time. Why did you choose

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Speaker 2: my sisters before leaving their home? Is there anything else

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Speaker 2: you did? How does it feel to know the only

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Speaker 2: thing you filled more miserably at than being a murderer

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Speaker 2: is trying to be a rapper?

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Speaker 1: Details only now being revealed.

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Speaker 3: To the public.

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Speaker 1: If the world had known the horrific injuries and more details,

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Speaker 1: there would never have been a plea deal. The public

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Speaker 1: would have rioted at the courthouse steps. We are learning

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Speaker 1: that one of these beautiful co eds stabbed thirty times,

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Speaker 1: another even more Keilly Golensovas's face so many times she

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Speaker 1: is disfigured and beyond identification. It goes on and on.

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Speaker 1: Why was all of this kept secret so everyone would

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Speaker 1: accept the plea deal and think it was for the best.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for being with us with me an all

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Speaker 3: star panel.

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Speaker 1: But first straight out to Joe Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics,

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Speaker 1: Jacksonville State Universe, star of a hit podcast Bodybags with

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Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan, and author of Blood Beneath My Fate

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Speaker 1: on Amazon. Joe Scott, I can hardly take it in

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Speaker 1: what we are learning.

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Speaker 3: First of all, just Scott listened to this.

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Speaker 4: Officers responding to the nine to one one call from

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Speaker 4: eleven twenty two King Road find the kitchen door Ajar.

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Speaker 4: During a walk through the rental house, officer's noticed blood

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Speaker 4: is smeared on the walls and floors and pulling by

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Speaker 4: the bodies on different floors of the house. Three of

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Speaker 4: the four victims were stabbed multiple times and officers were

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Speaker 4: unable to sort out additional injuries. Injuries were so bad

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Speaker 4: to one of the victims, an officer said the victim

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Speaker 4: was unrecognizable.

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Speaker 1: Unrecognizable and before you weigh and Joe Scott, I want

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Speaker 1: you to hear this as well.

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Speaker 5: Kaylee Gonsolves had already moved out of the king Road home,

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Speaker 5: but returned to show her best friend Maddie her new

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Speaker 5: range rover. An officer on scene described her face as disfigured.

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Speaker 5: Kaylee's fatal injuries included a left lung laceration, a liver laceration,

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Speaker 5: two subdual bleeds, and a stab behind her clavicle which

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Speaker 5: cut hers of clavian vein and artery. She had signs

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Speaker 5: of sharp force injuries and blunt force injuries, and was

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Speaker 5: the only victim to suffer asphyxia injuries.

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Speaker 4: Kaylee gonzolvs Was stabbed thirty four times. Her facial structure

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Speaker 4: was extremely damaged, leaving her unrecognizable due to the severity

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Speaker 4: of the stab wounds, and she was identified by methods

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Speaker 4: other than simple visual recognition. Besides defensive marks on her arms,

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Speaker 4: Kaylee had a broken nose, to brain bleeds, and a

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Speaker 4: stab behind her clavicle which severed the subclavian vein and artery.

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Speaker 1: Just goott, that's just one of the victims. Can you

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Speaker 1: imagine what she lived through? No wonder her father, Stiggun

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Speaker 1: Solvace is beside himself. These facts kept secret from the

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Speaker 1: public until after the deal goes down.

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Speaker 3: I don't like it.

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Speaker 6: No, I don't.

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Speaker 7: And this far the level of trauma here, Nancy, far

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Speaker 7: exceeded my expectation. Okay, from what I've been hearing lowth

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Speaker 7: these many years that we've been covering these cases, I

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Speaker 7: did not expect it to be to this degree. The

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Speaker 7: brutality here that has been exacted on these kids is unimaginable,

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Speaker 7: The trauma, the proximity to these individuals per the perpetrator,

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Speaker 7: I mean, this is an asymmetrical attack where he is

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Speaker 7: literally would literally have to be on top of a

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Speaker 7: couple of these victims, just kind of hammering down on them,

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Speaker 7: not just with the blade itself, but also inducing this

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Speaker 7: blunt force trauma which many of these victims have sustained. Nancy,

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Speaker 7: there's also other evidence other than just sharp force injury.

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Speaker 7: We've got indication that markings left behind may have been

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Speaker 7: generated as a result of potentially punching.

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Speaker 1: Make sense of what you are just saying, okay, because

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Speaker 1: you use a lot of technical terms. Kelly Gonsalves was asphyxiated, Okay,

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Speaker 1: there were marks on her mouth, there were other signs

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Speaker 1: that she had been suffocated or strangled. But what is

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Speaker 1: so shocking to me amongst all of this, it's all shocking,

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Speaker 1: is that there are multiple stabs to the face.

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Speaker 3: Susan Hendrix joining me, She.

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Speaker 1: Has been camped outside the county courthouse there. From the

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Speaker 1: get go, author of Down the Hill, I descend into

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Speaker 1: the double murder in Delphi. There she did another deep,

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Speaker 1: deep look at the Delphi murders. Susan Hendricks, Am I

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Speaker 1: understanding this correctly? All the injuries sustained by Keilly, and

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Speaker 1: that's not even the worst. I think Matty Mogan had

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Speaker 1: even more stab wounds. But all of these stab wounds

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Speaker 1: to the face.

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Speaker 8: Susan Hendricks, Yes, to me, that shows a deep rooted

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Speaker 8: hate and envy for those women. Absolutely right, Nancy, when

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Speaker 8: you say no wonder Steve was so furious and you

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Speaker 8: didn't even know what we know now. And I remember

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Speaker 8: early on, Nancy, you'll remember too that the coroner said

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Speaker 8: they were likely sleeping. What that almost sounds deliberate to

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Speaker 8: turn the people off, to say, oh, nothing to see here,

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Speaker 8: and knocking down the house. I mean, these injuries horrific.

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Speaker 8: You're right, Matty Mogan wounds to the face, Xana Kernodle

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Speaker 8: more than fifty stab wounds. Fifty It's unbelievable.

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Speaker 1: Fifty to Xana, Xana, fifty stab wounds. And what's so

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Speaker 1: crazy about this is let me go to a shrink.

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Speaker 3: Doctor John Delatori.

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Speaker 1: Is joining us, and I want to follow up on

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Speaker 1: what Susan Hendricks just said. Delatory psychologists specializing in forensic psychology.

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Speaker 1: All these wounds to the face. Now, I'm just a

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Speaker 1: trial lawyer, okay, but this means something coologically, There's no

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Speaker 1: doubt in my mind.

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Speaker 3: I don't care.

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Speaker 1: If the Angel Gabriel came down and told me it

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Speaker 1: means nothing, I'd have to call him a liar. Because

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Speaker 1: when you stab a woman in the face fifty times,

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Speaker 1: or in this case, Kili Gounsolve is twenty thirty times,

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Speaker 1: Doctor John Delatory, what does it mean?

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Speaker 9: I think you know, other guests, you're going to talk

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Speaker 9: about the level of hating and animosity towards it. But

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Speaker 9: for me, he literally tried to erase her. He literally

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Speaker 9: tried to erase her identity from this planet. He hated

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Speaker 9: her so much that she couldn't even exist as a

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Speaker 9: human being anymore. That's the level of brutality that we're

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Speaker 9: dealing with here. When he walked into that room, he

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Speaker 9: imagined that she would no longer exist.

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Speaker 6: As a human.

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Speaker 9: That's what he was searching for. That's what he was

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Speaker 9: doing with all of this stuff, and whatever way that

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Speaker 9: he could accomplish that, he was going to spend the

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Speaker 9: time necessary, because imagine how much time that he has

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Speaker 9: to spend for you know, choking and then sabbing all

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Speaker 9: across her body and then the amount of times on

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Speaker 9: her face. That takes time. That's not something that's just

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Speaker 9: easily done. So he wanted to do this specifically to her,

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Speaker 9: to erase her identity from this planet.

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Speaker 1: What is so bizarre, doctor Delatory, is that he was

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Speaker 1: not insane, not insane now, not insane then, not temporary

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Speaker 1: insanity at the time.

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Speaker 3: And when you look at him as.

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Speaker 1: He's sitting there and sentencing, and he's looking as some

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Speaker 1: described it, and Susan Hendrix was there when he was

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Speaker 1: looking at the victims' families crying and snotting and begging

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Speaker 1: for the truth. He was described as like looking like

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Speaker 1: a hawk watching its prey, enjoying watching its squirm. And

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Speaker 1: this is the guy that stabbed this young girl up

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Speaker 1: to fifty times in the face the body. But I've

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Speaker 1: read a lot of studies, and I put a lot

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Speaker 1: of experts on the stand doctor Dilatory that explain that

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Speaker 1: when an attack her specifically attacks a woman's face or

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Speaker 1: her genitals, it's an anti woman thing.

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Speaker 3: He is destroying her beauty.

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Speaker 1: And there have been a lot of analyzes done on

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Speaker 1: Coburger implicating him as an in cel, an involuntary celibate

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Speaker 1: that hates women because he can't get women. Explain what

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Speaker 1: this all means. The attack to the victim's face not

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Speaker 1: just one. Kelly was totally disfigured. Dylan couldn't even identify her.

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Speaker 3: You heard it.

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Speaker 1: She had to be identified by means other than a

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Speaker 1: visual identification like you see in the movies and TVPSA

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Speaker 1: doesn't happen anymore where the loved one is brought in

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Speaker 1: and the all the shape back.

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Speaker 3: That doesn't happen anymore. But when they asked Dylan.

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Speaker 1: Who is that, she couldn't identify killing right, That's how

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Speaker 1: bad it was.

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Speaker 3: She was stabbed so many times in the face.

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Speaker 9: This is clearly gender based hatred. Clearly gender based hatred.

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Speaker 9: When we talk about the in cells, what we need

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Speaker 9: to remember is that they're primarily an online forum in

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Speaker 9: which all of these sad sack losers blame women for

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Speaker 9: all of their problems. Now, when we look at Coburger,

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Speaker 9: we can certainly see that there are elements in which

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Speaker 9: he viewed women as being subservient, as not being qualified

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Speaker 9: to be in the same room as him. But there's

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Speaker 9: a level of hatred here when it comes to these

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Speaker 9: behaviors that he's been fostering for a long period of time.

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Speaker 9: He's had to learn to control all of these behaviors.

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Speaker 9: And that's why I think you saw him the way

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Speaker 9: that we all saw him when it came to the

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Speaker 9: victim statements. He's taking it all in, he's listening to it.

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Speaker 9: He's in control, so he believes, and he's not going

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Speaker 9: to let anybody see what's underneath that hates.

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Speaker 1: I got another wrench to throw in the works for

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Speaker 1: you to just mull over. We learn from inmates behind

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Speaker 1: bars now that he obsessively washes his hands over and

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Speaker 1: over and over and will spend over an hour in

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Speaker 1: the shower behind bars. So the dichotomy of him obsessively

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Speaker 1: cleaning himself but yet stabbing these victims up to fifty

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Speaker 1: times each. Then we see him, Susan Hendricks, as you

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Speaker 1: did in the sentencing and he did. He looked like

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Speaker 1: a hawk staring at a little varmint caught in its talons,

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Speaker 1: just watching it scorm. He liked it, Susan, Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: absolutely loved it.

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Speaker 8: And I think he, for lack of a better term,

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Speaker 8: got off on the women going up to the podium

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Speaker 8: besides Olivia Gonzalvez. He did not like Kur I could

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Speaker 8: tell by his clenched jaw, but with the women, the

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Speaker 8: surviving roommates crying, and he also didn't like the men,

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Speaker 8: the men and Kelly's father turning the podium and on

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Speaker 8: the podium it said do not move.

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Speaker 3: He didn't listen, focused.

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Speaker 8: Right at coburger and said you picked the wrong family.

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Speaker 8: And by the way, they had heard about the thirty

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Speaker 8: plus stab wounds with Kelley, right.

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Speaker 3: Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey, Susan. You know what, Susan,

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Speaker 3: spare me.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I'm hoping that he got an effected him. He's living,

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Speaker 1: he's breathing, and I and you and the victims' families

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Speaker 1: are paying for it. And what I want to know,

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Speaker 1: if you have any idea why all this was kept

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Speaker 1: secret until after the deal was done, and it couldn't

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Speaker 1: be undone. There would have been a mob on the

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Speaker 1: courthouse steps if they had known Kelly for one like

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Speaker 1: the others were so attacked brutally.

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Speaker 3: Step and think.

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Speaker 1: About it, Joe Scott maybybe I'm not explaining this well,

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Speaker 1: the k bar knife and you got the same exact

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Speaker 1: kbar knife as did I. To think of that knife

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Speaker 1: in this girl's face, what thirty times that we know of,

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Speaker 1: and many of those wounds were overlapping, so you can't

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Speaker 1: differentiate one versus two versus three if the stab comes

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Speaker 1: down in the same spot in her face.

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Speaker 3: This guy is laughing at Everybody's probably writing a book

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Speaker 3: right now.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, he is.

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Speaker 7: And I'm sure that there are academics out there that

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Speaker 7: are salivating at the opportunity to get to sit in and

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Speaker 7: sell with him. And he's going to have control now, Nancy.

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Speaker 7: He's going to have control of the conversation because he

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Speaker 7: was not forced to allocute. I'll keep preaching that over

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Speaker 7: and over again. An academic will go in there and

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Speaker 7: he will get get ready for him to be able

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Speaker 7: to tell his side of the story. Let me tell

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Speaker 7: you one more if you like that one. This is

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Speaker 7: what I believe. I believe that there is probably institution

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Speaker 7: out there somewhere around the world that will allow him

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Speaker 7: in prison to complete his PhD. Just chew on that

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Speaker 7: for a second. After what he did to these kids

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Speaker 7: over and over and over again. He brutalized each and

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Speaker 7: every one of them to the point where you've got

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Speaker 7: one child is completely unrecognizable and you've got another one

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Speaker 7: that sustained so many stab wounds, so many stab wounds

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Speaker 7: that you cannot begin to fully appreciate the savagery. I

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Speaker 7: don't think that she went through in those last moments

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Speaker 7: of her life. And one more thing about Ethan. You

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Speaker 7: know that image that we've seen for years and years now,

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Speaker 7: those of that streaking down the side of the house, Well, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: that turns out that that was positively examined and turns

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Speaker 7: out that that was Ethan's blood. As a forensic scientist,

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Speaker 7: I'm not going to look at an image and you

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Speaker 7: can take this to the bank. I've never said that

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Speaker 7: that was blood. After they have released this information, they've

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Speaker 7: said that's his blood. That gives you an idea relative

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Speaker 7: to the volume, the volume of terror, the volume of

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Speaker 7: trauma that these kids were subjected to, and it's actually

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Speaker 7: visualized on the outside of that house.

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Speaker 1: Not only that, Joe Scott, the evidence that caller golns

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Speaker 1: solve this was asphyxiated. It's not just all the stab

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Speaker 1: wounds to the face. Yep, he silenced her.

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Speaker 10: Listen, damage around her mouth, suggesting Coberger tried to silence

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Speaker 10: or gag her in some way.

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Speaker 6: The family lawyer.

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Speaker 10: Suggested a second weapon was used to inflict blunt force

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Speaker 10: trauma to her face, while others believe the trauma could

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Speaker 10: have been caused by the butt of the k bar knife.

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Speaker 10: Haley's asphyxia injuries were caused by blunt force trauma to

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Speaker 10: her face and mouth area, potentially alongside other forms of

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Speaker 10: restriction or obstruction.

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Speaker 1: Just Scott, please explain that that this was caused by

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Speaker 1: the butt of his knife.

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Speaker 3: Is that like pistol whipping somebody.

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Speaker 1: With the butt of a gum but you're doing it

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Speaker 1: with the butt of that kbar.

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Speaker 3: What does this mean?

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Speaker 7: No, what it means is when this knife was developed, Nancy,

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Speaker 7: for the Marine Corps to use in the field, they

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Speaker 7: use it for a variety of things. Did you know

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Speaker 7: that combat, in combat, you can use this as a bludgeon.

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Speaker 7: Look at that? What does it look like? It looks

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Speaker 7: like the leading edge of a hammer, doesn't it. And

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Speaker 7: this thing is steal so as you're driving it down

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Speaker 7: like a piston, you're actually driving it down into the tissue.

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Speaker 7: That's going to explain a lot of the fractures that

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Speaker 7: you might see with her face, potentially because he's in

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Speaker 7: such close proximity to her as he's traumatizing her.

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Speaker 2: Please describe in detail the level of anxiety you must

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Speaker 2: have felt when you heard the bear cat pull up

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Speaker 2: to your family home on December thirtieth, twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 2: Which do you regret more returning to the crime scene

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Speaker 2: five hours later, or never ever going back to Moscow,

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Speaker 2: not even one after stalking them there for months. If

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Speaker 2: you are really smart, do you think you'd be here

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Speaker 2: right now? What's it like needing this much attention just

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Speaker 2: to feel real? You're terrified of being ordinary, aren't you?

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Speaker 2: Do you feel anything at all? Or are you exactly

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Speaker 2: what you always feared?

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Speaker 3: Nothing?

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Speaker 2: If you're so powerful, then why are you still hiding?

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Speaker 3: Defendant?

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Speaker 2: You see I'm here today as me, But who are you?

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Speaker 2: Let's try to take off your mask and see the

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Speaker 2: truth is the scariest part about you. It's how painfully average.

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Speaker 2: You turned out to be as dumb as they come, stupid, clumsy, slow, sloppy, weak, dirty.

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Speaker 2: Don't ever try to convince yourself you mattered just because

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Speaker 2: someone final said your name out loud.

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Speaker 1: You're seeing coburger there in the Senate, saying Susan Hendricks

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Speaker 1: described the way he looked, which is a complete opposite

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Speaker 1: of the person that carried out these knowing but frenzied

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Speaker 1: acts on the victim, fifty stab wounds, thirty stab wounds,

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Speaker 1: disfiguring Kelly's face with a k bar knife and the

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Speaker 1: butt of the knife. What was he like in that sentencing, Nancy?

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Speaker 8: There was no movement at all, stoics, staring straight ahead.

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Speaker 8: The only time I saw any facial expression is when

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Speaker 8: he walked in in the beginning and then after the

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Speaker 8: break and smiled towards his mother.

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Speaker 3: Other than that, my dad was watching.

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Speaker 8: At home and said he has to be on medication.

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Speaker 8: He's making zero movement. I said, no, he doesn't have

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Speaker 8: the feelings. They're just not there.

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Speaker 1: Guys, compare his demeanor in the courtroom to the frenzied

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Speaker 1: attack on the victims.

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Speaker 3: Listen.

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Speaker 4: The severity of Kaylee's injury was such that even roommate

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Speaker 4: Dylan Mortenson initially misidentified Kaylee as Xena due to the disfigurement.

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Speaker 4: Xanna Kernodle was awake and her order from Jack in

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Speaker 4: the Box had just been delivered when she appears to

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Speaker 4: have heard something going on in the room upstairs occupied

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Speaker 4: by Mattie and Kaylee. As Xena is on the stairs

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Speaker 4: leading upstairs, she was confronted by Coburger exiting Mattie's room,

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Speaker 4: and he attacks Xena as she attempts to retreat to

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Speaker 4: her room.

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Speaker 1: Joining me is Chris mcdunna, director Cole Case Foundation, former

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Speaker 1: homicide detective who has scoured the scene as well.

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Speaker 3: I want you to hear this and then give.

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Speaker 1: Me your analysis of how Xana was attacked by Coburger.

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Speaker 1: It's nothing like we were told at the beginning, Like

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Speaker 1: Susan Hendricks was saying, Oh, they all were killed in

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Speaker 1: their sleep, Okay, they drifted off to death. It's anything

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Speaker 1: but listen to this.

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Speaker 10: Chris Coberger attacks Xena, but she puts up a fight

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Speaker 10: and sustains more than fifty stab wounds. Many of Xanna's

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Speaker 10: wounds are defensive wounds, and a gash on her left

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Speaker 10: hand between her index finger and thumb, as well as

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Speaker 10: blunt force injuries on her body. A life and death

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Speaker 10: struggle between Xanna and Coberger took place in her room.

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Speaker 10: Xanna's fatal injuries identified as a laceration to her right

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Speaker 10: lung and two lacerations to her heart.

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Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace. So he was stabbing her

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Speaker 1: so brutally. He lacerated her lung and twice to the heart.

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Speaker 1: Was he just sitting on top of her, just stabbing

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Speaker 1: her over and over and over?

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Speaker 3: What about this?

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Speaker 1: You've had a lot of theories about the way this

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Speaker 1: thing went down, and if the public, if the world

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Speaker 1: had known what we're learning now, I think the courthouse

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Speaker 1: would have been surrounded by tor and pitchforks for Pete's sake,

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Speaker 1: not to let that sweetheart and deal go through.

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Speaker 3: It sounds like Xana hears something.

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Speaker 1: She was awake because she had just gotten that order

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Speaker 1: from Jack in the Box. She hears something going on

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Speaker 1: upstairs in the room occupied by Maddie and Cally. She's

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Speaker 1: on the stairs that lead to upstairs, and then is

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Speaker 1: then it's then she's confronted by Coburger. Give me your scenario, So, Nancy,

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Speaker 1: I mean We've talked about this many times on your show.

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Speaker 11: Just think about this idea of the frenzy that's taking

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Speaker 11: place on the third floor that delectorium Doc Morgan's are

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Speaker 11: talking about, where this guy is trying to erase everybody

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Speaker 11: that he's contacting with. Now you have this young, innocent

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Speaker 11: human being who here's what's going on upstairs, interrupts and

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Speaker 11: then he turns on her like the wolf that he is,

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Speaker 11: and then slaughters her. I think that was probably the

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Speaker 11: time he dropped the sheet because she's in this frenzy.

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Speaker 1: So Scott describe the injuries to Xanna.

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Speaker 7: Xanna. The interesting thing about her injuries Nancy is that

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Speaker 7: she's got multiple defensive injuries. That's why I used the

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Speaker 7: term that she fought. This was like a titan like fight.

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Speaker 7: She knows that her life is coming to an end,

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Speaker 7: or she's trying to avoid it, and so she's got

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Speaker 7: multiple injuries where she's raising her arm like this and

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Speaker 7: her hand and these cuts run onto her arm, where

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Speaker 7: if you're talking about sword play or knife player, you're

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Speaker 7: talking about a term called perry where you're trying to

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Speaker 7: defend yourself like this. Do you remember Nancy the first

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Speaker 7: bit of physical trauma. Information that was actually leaked out

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Speaker 7: in this case had to do specifically with Xana, and

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Speaker 7: it had to do with the fact that that knife

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Speaker 7: had been drawn through her hand to the point where

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Speaker 7: her tendons were cut. And I knew at that moment

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Speaker 7: time that was several months ago. It seems like now

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Speaker 7: I knew at that time that she had fought ferociously.

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Speaker 7: I just didn't realize, Tancy, that this was going to

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Speaker 7: wind up with a total of fifty five zero injuries

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Speaker 7: to this diminutive young woman. And I see this, and

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Speaker 7: then I see that reptile in court, and I think

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Speaker 7: about this is this is no match here physically showing

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Speaker 7: up with a combat knife and he is literally just

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Speaker 7: full of anger and rage. I'm not saying that Xanna

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Speaker 7: was the target. I'm saying, like Chris had said, that

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Speaker 7: she became kind of like an impediment to him getting

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Speaker 7: ready to x Fill out of that house. He got

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Speaker 7: in her, she got in his way, and you know,

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Speaker 7: Katie barred the door at that point in time. The

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Speaker 7: totality of his rage is taken out on her. At

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Speaker 7: this point in the aftermath.

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Speaker 1: Joining me now is a veteran trial lawyer Greg Morse,

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Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney at Morse's Legal author of The Untested

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Speaker 1: on Amazon. Greg, there's no need to argue with me

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Speaker 1: about guilt or innessis because he's already played guilty.

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Speaker 3: All right.

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Speaker 1: He's behind bars right now and you're going to hear this.

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Speaker 3: Greg.

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Speaker 1: He's got a tablet, he's got an iPad. He can

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Speaker 1: watch movies. He can communicate with the outside world. He's

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Speaker 1: got email, he can listen to music. He can have

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Speaker 1: his vegan diet. He can write books. There is no

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Speaker 1: son of Sam law in Idaho, which means he can

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Speaker 1: make money off of his books and his appearances. If

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Speaker 1: he dials into some no son of Sam protection laws

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Speaker 1: in Idaho, he can call zoom in from his laptop

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Speaker 1: to the next criminal defense gala and give his side.

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Speaker 1: He didn't speak, of course, it's sentencing. He won't be

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Speaker 1: cross examined.

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Speaker 3: Blah blah blah. It goes on.

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Speaker 1: He can have visits from women, he can have girlfriends.

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Speaker 1: Look at your on Vandersliet. He's had two children behind bars.

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Speaker 1: It goes on. Greg Morse, I want to talk to

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Speaker 1: you about why these incendiary fact incendiary. Think about that

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Speaker 1: word incendiary. What is an incendiary device like a Molotov cocktail.

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Speaker 1: You throw it, it hits and it blows up and

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Speaker 1: destroys everything around it. These incendiary facts are now being

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Speaker 1: released after the deed is done.

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Speaker 3: Greg and I think that is wrong.

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Speaker 6: Well, it's not, it's not. The case is over, and

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Speaker 6: I'd be shocked if all the family members didn't have

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Speaker 6: access to this information if they wanted to with the prosecutor,

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Speaker 6: you know you were a prosecut Nancy. Criminal law is

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Speaker 6: not for the media. It happens in the courtroom and

437
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,919
Speaker 6: in offices, and it's very different than what gets played

438
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:09,760
Speaker 6: out in public. And at the end of the day,

439
00:26:10,119 --> 00:26:12,560
Speaker 6: while you can look at these facts and say they're

440
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:15,120
Speaker 6: you know, they're right, they're aggravating factors. If this were

441
00:26:15,200 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 6: the death penalty and we moved on to the death

442
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 6: penalty phase of the case, he went to trial and

443
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:22,679
Speaker 6: was convicted, the government would be obviously putting all of

444
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 6: these extreme violence that he did to these people as

445
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 6: aggravating factors that weren't the death penalty. However, all of

446
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:35,000
Speaker 6: that being said, that doesn't bring solace. It doesn't change

447
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:38,880
Speaker 6: the fact that he has multiple life sentences. The family

448
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,400
Speaker 6: will not feel unaccomplishing.

449
00:26:41,600 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: You a soulless I'm certainly not asking a criminal defense

450
00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 1: attorney to speak to the suffering of crime victims. You

451
00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,480
Speaker 1: represent the bad guys. Okay, let's just get that straight. Okay,

452
00:26:55,480 --> 00:26:59,480
Speaker 1: that's what you do. I'm asking you about the fact

453
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 1: that these incendiary details were kept secret, and yes, I

454
00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,400
Speaker 1: understand that they were kept secret for a reason.

455
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 3: But in my mind, this.

456
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: Is justification to seek the death penalty, not to have

457
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 1: him laid up in a cell washing his hands with

458
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 1: pure l watching an X rated video on his iPad. No, again,

459
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:27,240
Speaker 1: here we're learning Keiley was disfigured with a k bar

460
00:27:27,400 --> 00:27:28,439
Speaker 1: knife to the face.

461
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:30,119
Speaker 3: What thirty times?

462
00:27:30,320 --> 00:27:33,920
Speaker 6: I didn't need to read all the penalformation. You're right,

463
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 6: it doesn't do anything. It doesn't stop crime. There are

464
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:39,280
Speaker 6: people in the Idaho Maximum Prison since nineteen eighty five

465
00:27:39,280 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 6: that are still waiting for execution. Nobody doesn't commit a

466
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,159
Speaker 6: crime because someone got the death penalty. Those type of

467
00:27:46,240 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 6: cases do not lead to that result. The death penalty

468
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,639
Speaker 6: is a waste. All it would do in this case

469
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:52,200
Speaker 6: is Okay.

470
00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you again to start preaching the

471
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:56,240
Speaker 1: pros and cause of the death penertation.

472
00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: I'm telling you and asking.

473
00:27:58,240 --> 00:28:00,320
Speaker 1: You, do you think the public would have gone along

474
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: with this deal if they had known the truth?

475
00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:04,639
Speaker 6: The public's irrelevant.

476
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:05,400
Speaker 3: It's not fair.

477
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:07,840
Speaker 6: That's all that matters. But no one cares. You're not

478
00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:10,359
Speaker 6: in the case. Nobody cares, like it doesn't matter, you

479
00:28:10,400 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 6: don't matter, No one matters. I don't matter. It's those victims'

480
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 6: families that matter. And what and prosecutors, you were one.

481
00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:21,080
Speaker 6: You have to make a hard choice in difficult situations.

482
00:28:21,359 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: And there is absolutely no Greg Moore, Yeah, it does matter.

483
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: It does matter because prosecutor doesn't do anything to.

484
00:28:31,080 --> 00:28:32,840
Speaker 3: Do the right thing.

485
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: This was not the right thing to stab a young

486
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: girl in the face thirty or more times with that

487
00:28:40,800 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: thing right there, and nobody knows that until now. Uh

488
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 1: uh oh. You keep saying you don't matter, I don't matter.

489
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:56,920
Speaker 1: That's bs We do matter. Every voice matters, every voice matters.

490
00:28:57,600 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: He was entrusted with doing the right thing by the public,

491
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 1: doing the right thing for the public, the people in Idaho,

492
00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 1: and this was not the right thing. Now we're learning

493
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 1: about all of these disgusting facts. I mean, Joe Scott,

494
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 1: you've scoured the medical Examiner's report.

495
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 3: What repels you the most. If you can even pick.

496
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:23,920
Speaker 7: I don't know that I can. I can't narrow it

497
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:27,160
Speaker 7: down because it's so vast, Nancy. Out of all the

498
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 7: cases certainly that I've covered in the media, this farester

499
00:29:30,680 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 7: passes when you're talking about an edged weapon. I've never

500
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 7: seen this, Nancy. I never saw it. In all my

501
00:29:36,600 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 7: years in practice in New Orleans and Atlanta, I've never

502
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 7: seen four people, four four people, this disfigured, this brutalized

503
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,400
Speaker 7: in one location with one case. This far exceeds anything

504
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 7: that I can imagine. But also there's one other element here,

505
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 7: and this might be more of a John comment, but

506
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 7: the idea that the terror that they lived in in

507
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:04,480
Speaker 7: those final moments, and I don't know that we can

508
00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 7: take the measure I think on trauma. You can't take

509
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 7: the measure on what they went through in those final moments.

510
00:30:10,480 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 6: Nancy.

511
00:30:11,360 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 7: It's something that you cannot absolutely quantify.

512
00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:19,280
Speaker 10: Madison Mogen might have been asleep when Brian Coberger snuck

513
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,840
Speaker 10: into the room to attack, but she woke up to

514
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 10: fight back against her killer. Mattie had defensive wounds to

515
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,240
Speaker 10: her forearms and hands, indicating she was not stabbed to

516
00:30:28,320 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 10: death in her sleep with no awareness to what was happening.

517
00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 10: Her death was caused by lacerations to her liver and

518
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 10: left lung from sharp forced injuries, and she suffered a

519
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 10: gash extending from her eye to her nose. On the

520
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 10: third floor, Kaylee and Madison are found together in a

521
00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 10: bed under a pink blanket covered in blood. There is

522
00:30:45,800 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 10: a large pool of blood near Kaylee's midsection and blood

523
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,800
Speaker 10: spatter on the walls. The officer notes Mattie appears to

524
00:30:51,840 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 10: be laying up against Kaylee, and Maddie has what appeared

525
00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 10: to be wounds to her forearm and hands. A gash

526
00:30:57,240 --> 00:30:59,680
Speaker 10: from under her right eye appears to go from the

527
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 10: corner of her eye to her nose. The officer notes

528
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,520
Speaker 10: Kayleie is unrecognizable as her facial structure is extremely damaged.

529
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 1: Crime stores with Nancy Grace.

530
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: You want the truth, Here's the one you'll hate the most.

531
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: If you hadn't attacked them in their sleep in the

532
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 2: middle of the night like a pedophile, Kaylee.

533
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 3: Would have kicked your gass.

534
00:31:30,400 --> 00:31:30,760
Speaker 2: Thank you.

535
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 10: As Xana Kernodle puts up a fight, her boyfriend Ethan

536
00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,600
Speaker 10: Chapin appears to have been asleep and never woke up.

537
00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 10: Ethan died from sharp force injuries, and the fatal injury

538
00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 10: was a stab wound under his left clavicle. This wound

539
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,480
Speaker 10: severed his subclavian vein in subclavian artery as well as

540
00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 10: his jugular vein.

541
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: Talk like that would have thrown me completely over the

542
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: edge of the cliff if I were trying this case.

543
00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:57,520
Speaker 1: You have to have the medical examiner explain in regular

544
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,320
Speaker 1: people talk what he said saying. What he's saying is

545
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,840
Speaker 1: that Ethan was likely attacked in his sleep. His body

546
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: found lying in bed, partially under a blanket covering his

547
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 1: midsection and bottom line. Susan Hendrix, his jugular vein was sliced,

548
00:32:18,480 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 1: there was arterial bleeding which likely went all the way

549
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 1: up to the ceiling. That's what happened to this beautiful

550
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:31,800
Speaker 1: young boy, explaining Susan Hendrix.

551
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:34,240
Speaker 8: Absolutely and the authorities who first came into that room

552
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 8: says there was blood smeared all over the walls, and

553
00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 8: I go back to the corner, saying they were likely

554
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 8: killed in their sleep. It looked like a horror seed

555
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,560
Speaker 8: like a movie all around that house. And the attorney

556
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 8: mentioned defense attorney who matters guests who felt like they

557
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:53,920
Speaker 8: didn't matter. All of the family members and Caylee's father

558
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 8: has been saying that from the start, and he didn't

559
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 8: even know the extent of the injuries so much so

560
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,720
Speaker 8: they made mattered that they only had twenty four hours

561
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 8: they found out the email that there was a plea

562
00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 8: deal that was reached. They felt like they didn't matter.

563
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 8: They were a secondary thought.

564
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,240
Speaker 1: Okay, Greg Morrise, you can put that. Let me just

565
00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 1: put it mildly. Well, I can think of a lot

566
00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,280
Speaker 1: of places you could shove that, but I'll just say

567
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:22,160
Speaker 1: correct it. Put it in your pipe and smoke it.

568
00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:24,720
Speaker 6: Let's correct. The mischaracter deal has already.

569
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:27,240
Speaker 1: Done and sealed before the family got to even talk

570
00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:27,760
Speaker 1: about it.

571
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 12: The victim and your families matter, not the panelists. And

572
00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:38,960
Speaker 12: also correct the information son of Samuel's victims family unconstitutional.

573
00:33:39,240 --> 00:33:41,560
Speaker 6: So just to say who matters? What I'm talking about

574
00:33:41,720 --> 00:33:45,640
Speaker 6: is the public's view for justice, mercy, whatever doesn't matter.

575
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:49,080
Speaker 6: It's about the victims, the victim's family, the prosecutor. So

576
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 6: we're talking about this in a vacuum. But the prosecutors

577
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 6: spoken with the victims family and the only thing that

578
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,720
Speaker 6: can give them solace is their loved one back, and

579
00:33:56,760 --> 00:33:59,720
Speaker 6: that's impossible, so of course they're going to be.

580
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: That's not correct, Tim, if you out my season, Hendricks,

581
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:10,719
Speaker 1: wasn't this plea agreed upon before the victims' families found

582
00:34:10,760 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 1: out about it? I'm not talking about the public. I'm

583
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:15,360
Speaker 1: not talking about Morse or anybody else on this panel,

584
00:34:15,760 --> 00:34:19,720
Speaker 1: because at least to that little tiny bit extent, Morse

585
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:24,439
Speaker 1: is right. What we think doesn't matter because it's already done.

586
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: It's over. Isn't it true, Hendrix, that this deal was

587
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 1: agreed upon before the family even knew about it. They

588
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,720
Speaker 1: were notified in an email, Hey, here's the deal.

589
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:35,280
Speaker 3: Yeah.

590
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:39,560
Speaker 8: Steve Gonzalez was so furious he didn't even go into

591
00:34:39,760 --> 00:34:42,560
Speaker 8: court when it was announced that a plea deal has

592
00:34:42,640 --> 00:34:47,760
Speaker 8: been reached. He was infuriated. Kelly's brother is still They're

593
00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 8: all still infuriated.

594
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:51,240
Speaker 3: Didn't speak of the victim impact statements.

595
00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:54,040
Speaker 8: He said, I just feel like I couldn't contain myself

596
00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 8: what was decided around us, not for us, around us,

597
00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:02,400
Speaker 8: giving them really twenty four hours to get to that

598
00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:05,320
Speaker 8: courtroom to hear that a plea deal has been reached.

599
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 8: They felt left out, They didn't even know, and I

600
00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 8: don't know what kind of inspired the prosecutor, if you will,

601
00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 8: to tell them how brutal the attacks were. But they

602
00:35:14,719 --> 00:35:18,080
Speaker 8: heard just hours before the victim impacts statements. They weren't

603
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 8: even going to hear them. It's just they kept them out.

604
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 8: You're right, we don't matter they do, and they were

605
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 8: tossed to the side of it, I believe.

606
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: And let me be very very clear regarding son of

607
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: Sam laws a US Supreme Court case, I believe it

608
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: was about the movie Wise Guys. But regardless of the movie,

609
00:35:39,800 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 1: the Supreme Courts reversed the son of Sam law the

610
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: national law. However, since that time, forty or more states

611
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:56,200
Speaker 1: have enacted their own state wide son of Sam laws

612
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: that comply to the federal US Supreme Court case.

613
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,400
Speaker 3: So there are son of Sam laws.

614
00:36:04,719 --> 00:36:10,600
Speaker 1: In effect right now that are constitutionally approved, but not Idaho.

615
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:17,759
Speaker 1: Therefore Coburger can make money. Yes he can, Oh, yes

616
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: he can.

617
00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:19,280
Speaker 3: Now.

618
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:24,359
Speaker 1: We are also learning from recently released files the Coburger

619
00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:29,359
Speaker 1: is called red handed stalking the victims. We find out

620
00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:34,240
Speaker 1: in the files that repeatedly these young girls saw someone

621
00:36:34,719 --> 00:36:36,520
Speaker 1: lurking in that tree line.

622
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:38,759
Speaker 3: Hey new yourk control room, Please.

623
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 1: Show me the home the King wrote address, especially that

624
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 1: one video where McDonough and.

625
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 3: I walked up behind the house.

626
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: There's an higher vantage point if you can get the video,

627
00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 1: get it because that's the tree line. I think they're

628
00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: talking about Chris McDonough. Repeatedly.

629
00:36:58,400 --> 00:36:59,719
Speaker 3: The dog I think the dog's name.

630
00:36:59,640 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 1: Is Murph would go and attack the tree line uncharacteristically.

631
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:07,360
Speaker 1: I mean, you know when your dog is doing something

632
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: they don't normally do.

633
00:37:10,280 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 13: That.

634
00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,120
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go. There's a tree line.

635
00:37:13,200 --> 00:37:16,880
Speaker 1: I think they're talking about Chris McDonough. They saw a

636
00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:21,640
Speaker 1: shadowy figure skulking in those trees. The dog would go

637
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:24,720
Speaker 1: and attack at the time they saw the shadowy figure

638
00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 1: and when they didn't see the shadowy figure, but they

639
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 1: now believe he was there. And hold on, mcdunna, you've

640
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 1: got to see this before you weigh in on one

641
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:40,880
Speaker 1: of his many outings to scout the murder, saying, idiot

642
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: Coburger was actually pulled over watch this killer on cam.

643
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 13: Hey there, I stuffed you go a little fast. You

644
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,879
Speaker 13: didn't realize this is a thirty five. It's thirty five,

645
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:58,400
Speaker 13: it is, yeah, so you go out forty yeah, forty

646
00:37:58,440 --> 00:38:01,160
Speaker 13: three is what the radar said. Oh, yeah, you have

647
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 13: your license, that registration insurance. Were you wearing your seat

648
00:38:13,080 --> 00:38:20,000
Speaker 13: belt when I stopped you? No, that's no good, right,

649
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 13: be honest with you. Yeah, I appreciate that.

650
00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 1: I mean, really, Chris McDonough, he's on his way to

651
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,320
Speaker 1: stalk the victims, to spy on him, sneak around, skulk

652
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: in that tree line and watch them maybe inside undressing

653
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: or whatever he tried to catch visually. And he's pulled

654
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:43,120
Speaker 1: over for exceeding speed limit, not wearing a seat belt.

655
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 1: How relieved is he? He's planning a quadruple murder.

656
00:38:49,080 --> 00:38:49,480
Speaker 3: Chris.

657
00:38:49,719 --> 00:38:52,279
Speaker 11: Yeah, and Nancy and you and I stood right there

658
00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 11: and looked in the same vantage point he did. And

659
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 11: so you know, it's important to understand if you're going

660
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 11: to go sit down with you better understand the neighborhood he.

661
00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:03,560
Speaker 6: Hangs out in.

662
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,560
Speaker 11: And when you have the disc attorney later on here

663
00:39:07,960 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 11: not taking a shot at my colleague here, but when

664
00:39:10,360 --> 00:39:12,640
Speaker 11: you have the DA, you know, coming and telling the

665
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 11: world we're not really sure what his motive is. We're

666
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:18,439
Speaker 11: not sure if there's a sexual component to this, etc.

667
00:39:18,760 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 6: Etc.

668
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:19,439
Speaker 3: Etc.

669
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,840
Speaker 11: Well, what are you sure of then in his totality

670
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,680
Speaker 11: because the public is sure they're connecting the dots that

671
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 11: you know, there's information that this.

672
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,840
Speaker 6: Guy brutally did what he did, how he.

673
00:39:32,760 --> 00:39:37,120
Speaker 11: Did it, and all of a sudden, the families becoming

674
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,800
Speaker 11: an attachment to the email.

675
00:39:40,080 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 6: That oh, by the way, we're going to make a

676
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:44,600
Speaker 6: deal with the devil. Here. There's something wrong here.

677
00:39:44,800 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 3: There's something definitely wrong here. You know, I want you

678
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:48,839
Speaker 3: to hear this too.

679
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:55,719
Speaker 1: So here he is, he's out stalking the victims, and

680
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: we have him on video en routed to the murder

681
00:39:59,400 --> 00:40:03,120
Speaker 1: saying he's pulled over for exceeding to speed limit, not

682
00:40:03,200 --> 00:40:08,920
Speaker 1: by much, and he's worried about insurance.

683
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,200
Speaker 3: Listen, yeah, I just.

684
00:40:11,120 --> 00:40:12,680
Speaker 13: Have a question about that. So in terms of what

685
00:40:12,800 --> 00:40:14,719
Speaker 13: we want to got to scream and such, futs off,

686
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 13: he's superford it to your insurances in the same way

687
00:40:17,160 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 13: for this Still, I don't think so. I think it's

688
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 13: only moving violations that go to insurance for things that

689
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,880
Speaker 13: might put points on your license. Yeah, I'm not one

690
00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 13: hundred percent sure, long block. What I'm like, Okay, could

691
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 13: I get a phone number for you?

692
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:33,799
Speaker 10: Yeah?

693
00:40:33,840 --> 00:40:36,759
Speaker 13: What we need to put it on the citation as

694
00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:37,200
Speaker 13: it goes.

695
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 6: To the court.

696
00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:39,759
Speaker 1: And he's worried that his phone number is going to

697
00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: be on the citation. He ain't crazy delatory. He's asking

698
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:49,520
Speaker 1: about his driver's license, registration, insurance. He doesn't want his

699
00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 1: cell number on the police report. He is not crazy.

700
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,120
Speaker 1: No wonder they didn't put up the insanity defense because

701
00:40:58,160 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: you play this here he is out talking the victims

702
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,240
Speaker 1: home and he's caught and he's perfectly sane.

703
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 6: Yeah, he's perfectly saying.

704
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:11,359
Speaker 9: He's clearly logical and rational, and what he's wanting to

705
00:41:11,440 --> 00:41:14,440
Speaker 9: do now, the behavior that he ends up doing is

706
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 9: completely irrational. There's no reason for him to have done

707
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,040
Speaker 9: this other than he wanted to.

708
00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:21,239
Speaker 6: That's the key.

709
00:41:21,560 --> 00:41:26,160
Speaker 9: Everything was about him wanting to hurt these people. Everything

710
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 9: is about how he it feels frustrated and just wants

711
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:35,760
Speaker 9: to erase these people as an exemplar of his overall

712
00:41:35,840 --> 00:41:37,640
Speaker 9: level of frustration with what's going on with.

713
00:41:37,719 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: Nje wanted more than that delatry. I think he wanted

714
00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 1: to have sex with the women, but he has been

715
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: rejected by people so many times. I mean, whoa, whoa, wha,

716
00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:49,480
Speaker 1: whoa whoa.

717
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:50,160
Speaker 3: Isn't it true?

718
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 1: Dave mag joining me Crime Story's investigative reporter, that one

719
00:41:53,680 --> 00:41:57,760
Speaker 1: woman met up with him via tender and he started

720
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 1: asking her about what would be the worst way to

721
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:01,680
Speaker 1: be murdered.

722
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:05,120
Speaker 3: That was their last date. What happened, Dave.

723
00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:07,440
Speaker 14: Mac They actually met through kender, like you said, and

724
00:42:07,719 --> 00:42:11,000
Speaker 14: during the course of their date, the day shares a

725
00:42:11,040 --> 00:42:13,799
Speaker 14: story of a murder that took place in her hometown.

726
00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,080
Speaker 14: And as they talked further, Coberger actually asked her about

727
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 14: what would the worst way to die be and I

728
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 14: think she said knife, and he suggested out of the

729
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 14: thin air, a k bar knife. Until this story came out, Nancy,

730
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:33,000
Speaker 14: a lot of us had no idea of what a

731
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:34,600
Speaker 14: k bar knife was.

732
00:42:35,120 --> 00:42:37,439
Speaker 6: Why would anyone bring it up on a date.

733
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:39,919
Speaker 1: Let's let the defense attorney answer that. So he meets

734
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,279
Speaker 1: a tender date, he wants to have sex with her.

735
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 13: So his.

736
00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 1: Lead up to that to woo her is talking about

737
00:42:49,600 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 1: what would be the worst way for her to be murdered.

738
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 3: She says by knife. He goes, oh, like a k

739
00:42:54,440 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: bar what a co inky name.

740
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:58,799
Speaker 6: Greg Morris, No, you're right, and I think you know

741
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 6: this is the unfortunate situation of society. People don't think

742
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,560
Speaker 6: someone acting weird or something. They just kind of forget

743
00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,839
Speaker 6: about it. That's out of their life. But that's why

744
00:43:07,880 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 6: I keep non emergency police agency number in my phone

745
00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:13,400
Speaker 6: for my local community. No, that's not what I'm saying.

746
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:18,640
Speaker 6: You're sitting here talking what I'm saying, So let's talk

747
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:24,279
Speaker 6: about No. No, what I'm pointing out. That's a you're

748
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:26,399
Speaker 6: one hundred percent right, that's a bizarre way to talk

749
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 6: to a woman you're on a date with. Right, that's unusual.

750
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:32,959
Speaker 6: He's a weird guy. We also have the experience they were.

751
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:36,240
Speaker 1: Pointed with him a man, Well you got it talking

752
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:39,360
Speaker 1: a week to the murder and he's talking to his

753
00:43:39,960 --> 00:43:40,640
Speaker 1: sex target.

754
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 6: Amount of k bar, Nancy. Any prosecutor could win this

755
00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,359
Speaker 6: case like this is easy to win from the prosecution side.

756
00:43:48,400 --> 00:43:51,280
Speaker 6: So what does that add to where we are today? Nothing.

757
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 6: He would have been convicted. He committed the crimes. And

758
00:43:54,120 --> 00:43:56,960
Speaker 6: my guess is, if you look through this guy's video history,

759
00:43:57,120 --> 00:44:00,479
Speaker 6: you probably watched the documentary The Cheshire Murders. That's point

760
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 6: because this is very reminiscent, except not as extreme because

761
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 6: they let their victims on fire in Connecticut, and the

762
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:08,919
Speaker 6: Connecticut chose to bring the death penalty back for those

763
00:44:08,920 --> 00:44:11,480
Speaker 6: two were Idaho chose not to follow it. In this

764
00:44:11,520 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 6: case and give life sentences. But my guess is when

765
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 6: he went to that strip club and he was the

766
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:20,160
Speaker 6: only person there, he was tempted to maybe act out then,

767
00:44:20,320 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 6: but he got scared. That's why he didn't. He was

768
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:26,680
Speaker 6: leading up to what unfortunately happened to those young folks

769
00:44:27,680 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 6: that he was convicted of. But there's a weirdident.

770
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 1: Dilatory, did you hear more? Oh, I'm still hearing him.

771
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,319
Speaker 1: It's like a gnat. I can hear it, but I

772
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 1: can't see it. Doctor Delatory. You hear more saying something

773
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:47,000
Speaker 1: about society blah blah blah blah, and then it's an

774
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 1: unfortunate thing that happened. It's like they had an accident

775
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:56,880
Speaker 1: or something. This is not unfortunate. It's a quadruple premeditated,

776
00:44:57,239 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: frenzied brutal pack.

777
00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:02,760
Speaker 3: You can't explain it away.

778
00:45:03,360 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: And the deal was done in secret and presented by

779
00:45:07,120 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 1: email to the victims family. If the world had known

780
00:45:10,960 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 1: the facts we're learning now, and I'm just this is

781
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,800
Speaker 1: a tip of the iceberg. No one would have agreed

782
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,360
Speaker 1: to this. There would be an uprise in an insurrection.

783
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,840
Speaker 9: Yeah, I think the idea is what we have to

784
00:45:22,840 --> 00:45:26,839
Speaker 9: remember that there are no coincidences in murder investigations, right,

785
00:45:26,920 --> 00:45:31,239
Speaker 9: these past behaviors are clearly indicative of what he is

786
00:45:31,360 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 9: going on in his mind, because it's too specific. As

787
00:45:34,640 --> 00:45:36,960
Speaker 9: for the deal happening in secret, I mean, in what

788
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 9: other way can can the prosecutor kind of get this

789
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 9: through if it's not in secret. I think the prosecutor

790
00:45:43,480 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 9: knew that this was going to look poorly amongst the community,

791
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:51,040
Speaker 9: amongst society, and amongst the victims' families, so we needed

792
00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 9: to push it through in a way that he can

793
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 9: kind of say, you know, listen, this was kind of

794
00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 9: spur of the moment. We needed to get this done.

795
00:45:57,600 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 6: I think.

796
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:01,560
Speaker 9: I think in the US mind, he's probably trying to

797
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 9: save the feelings of the family, but the family deserved

798
00:46:05,239 --> 00:46:07,680
Speaker 9: their opportunity to be to have their voices heard.

799
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 10: A court surviving room made Dylan Mortenson heard a person

800
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,720
Speaker 10: she believed was Kaylee screamed that somebody was in the house,

801
00:46:14,960 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 10: then heard someone run down from the third floor to

802
00:46:17,400 --> 00:46:19,959
Speaker 10: Xanna's room on the second floor, where she then heard

803
00:46:20,000 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 10: what she called a commotion. Mortenson, here's an unfamiliar male

804
00:46:23,920 --> 00:46:26,640
Speaker 10: voice say you're going to be fine. I'm going to

805
00:46:26,719 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 10: help you.

806
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:30,200
Speaker 15: Dylan was in her room while hearing the commotion, only

807
00:46:30,239 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 15: briefly opening up her door to see if she could

808
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,080
Speaker 15: tell what was happening. After hearing the man saying I'm

809
00:46:35,120 --> 00:46:38,080
Speaker 15: going to help you, Dylan opens the door and sees Coburger,

810
00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:41,520
Speaker 15: describing him to Officer Noon as as six feet tall, slim,

811
00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:44,279
Speaker 15: build a black mask with bushy eyebrows.

812
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,880
Speaker 1: Joe Scott Morgan joining US Professor Forensics and star on

813
00:46:48,160 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: body Bags podcast with Joe Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, the

814
00:46:52,120 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 1: prosecutor has come out and said the reason Kyburger didn't

815
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:01,760
Speaker 1: murder Dylan Mortenson is because he Kyburger was afraid, didn't

816
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:02,280
Speaker 1: he say.

817
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 8: That Susan Hendricks absolutely afraid that maybe someone would see

818
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 8: him because of all the commotion. But now that I

819
00:47:08,920 --> 00:47:11,320
Speaker 8: hear the details, they are so lucky. I believe he

820
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:14,239
Speaker 8: would have done it in an instant, killed Bethany and

821
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 8: Dylan if he saw them.

822
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,960
Speaker 3: Jo Scott, that's total bs. He just frendz.

823
00:47:18,040 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 1: The attacked a young girl, stabbing here in the face

824
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:26,080
Speaker 1: with thirty times another one fifty times in total, slicing

825
00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: Ethan's jugular vein, asphyxiation, beating with the butt of a

826
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 1: knife block just he's not afraid of Dylan Morton's So

827
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,760
Speaker 1: why is the prosecutor saying that.

828
00:47:36,800 --> 00:47:37,200
Speaker 6: I don't know.

829
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:39,239
Speaker 7: I've given this some thought, Nancy. And one of the

830
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 7: things that I kind of thought about, if he is

831
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 7: targeting one of the two victims on the third floor,

832
00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 7: he goes in, he murders, slaughters both these two precious souls,

833
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:54,600
Speaker 7: then is he's on an adrenaline high at that moment,

834
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 7: Tom And so after that adrenaline dump, he's coming down,

835
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:03,120
Speaker 7: coming down the stairs case at which time he encounters

836
00:48:03,200 --> 00:48:07,720
Speaker 7: Xana and it's then his adrenaline he gets another adrenaline dump,

837
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:11,160
Speaker 7: chases her into the room. I think that he's completely exhausted.

838
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 7: I think that probably he's got the thousand yards stare

839
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,960
Speaker 7: where he's just focused on trying to get the hell

840
00:48:17,000 --> 00:48:20,560
Speaker 7: out of this place as quickly as he can. And

841
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 7: you know, I don't know. I guess he has a

842
00:48:22,719 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 7: survival instinct. He seems like he's more bent on trying

843
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:29,719
Speaker 7: to impress law enforcement at traffic stops. And then of

844
00:48:29,719 --> 00:48:32,960
Speaker 7: course we hear about him trying to dominate the initial

845
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 7: conversation that he had with the police. It's really he's

846
00:48:37,320 --> 00:48:39,239
Speaker 7: kind of hard to figure out. But I don't think

847
00:48:39,280 --> 00:48:42,080
Speaker 7: that he is truly hard to figure out. Again, I

848
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,839
Speaker 7: think he's like a reptile. I don't think he has

849
00:48:44,840 --> 00:48:46,760
Speaker 7: a soul. Nancy, I really don't.

850
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,360
Speaker 1: We stop now to remember an American hero officer, Jacob

851
00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:54,920
Speaker 1: Chaffin's Prestonburgh PD, just twenty eight years old, shot in

852
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 1: the line of duty. Lead's behind grieving widow wife Hannah,

853
00:49:00,280 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: A little girl, Paisley, American hero officer in Jacob Chaffin's

854
00:49:06,640 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off good bye friend,