Speaker 1: I just love that your memory of this is us
Speaker 1: locking eyes across a crowded realm, but it really is
Speaker 1: like a romantic moment.
Speaker 2: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Bennacaram, and this is
Speaker 2: in retrospect, where each week we delve into cultural moments
Speaker 2: that shaped us.
Speaker 1: And that we just can't stop thinking about today. We
Speaker 1: thought we'd take some time to introduce ourselves. I think
Speaker 1: it would be fun to introduce each other, so let's
Speaker 1: try it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Actually, that's a good idea because I feel like it's
Speaker 2: easier to brag on behalf of someone else than it
Speaker 2: is to brag about yourself. And you have a really
Speaker 2: impressive bier.
Speaker 3: Well same.
Speaker 1: I think that's really fun to look at friends bios
Speaker 1: because I'm always like, Wow, you're so much more impressive
Speaker 1: than even I think you are.
Speaker 3: So I'll do yours first.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Jessica Bennett started her career at Newsweek. I
Speaker 1: mean you started your career a little bit before that,
Speaker 1: but that's where you had your first big writing job
Speaker 1: and was a culture writer there for a.
Speaker 3: Long time, and then went and ran content for.
Speaker 1: Tumblr for a short period of time when Tumblr was
Speaker 1: like really hot.
Speaker 2: Before, I guess I mean Tumbler's sort of back now, right,
Speaker 2: But it was like Tumblr was trying to do journalism
Speaker 2: for a hot second and it was the cool, hot
Speaker 2: place to be and everyone was there, and then it
Speaker 2: became just porne And now maybe it's kind of back
Speaker 2: in retro, and I.
Speaker 1: Think it's like a retro thing now. But I remember
Speaker 1: being very impressed when you got that job.
Speaker 2: It was a job and it was a job that
Speaker 2: had never existed before, and.
Speaker 3: I was like, oh, of course, just got that job.
Speaker 3: She's so cool.
Speaker 1: And then you went to the New York Times, and
Speaker 1: I think a thing most people know about you is
Speaker 1: that you were the first gender editor ever at the Times,
Speaker 1: which is very impressive. And then I think they don't
Speaker 1: have the gender editor well anymore.
Speaker 2: Right, there's no longer a gender editor, which.
Speaker 3: Is I think is interesting.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it shows sort of the evolution
Speaker 1: of thinking around gender, so an interesting in the word
Speaker 1: and also the idea that lots of things in gender
Speaker 1: coverage it shouldn't be this like isolated silo.
Speaker 2: But yes, it was still.
Speaker 1: Really important when you got that job, and I remember
Speaker 1: feeling like it was a really important step and now
Speaker 1: you're a columnist for the New York Times.
Speaker 3: I think one thing that's important about.
Speaker 1: Your career, at least I think so, is that you
Speaker 1: started a genre that's now very prevalent, but that at
Speaker 1: the time was a relatively new way to think about
Speaker 1: the world, which is that you did the first big
Speaker 1: interview with Monica Lewinsky sort of reframing her and thinking
Speaker 1: about what it meant that we thought of her in
Speaker 1: a certain way, and that you've done that a lot
Speaker 1: in your career, that you're sort of able to take
Speaker 1: something that everyone takes, this common wisdom and turn it
Speaker 1: on its head and really explore it in a more
Speaker 1: meaningful way.
Speaker 3: I really admire that. Yeah.
Speaker 2: I've always joked that at a certain point I became
Speaker 2: the scorned woman beat.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, so rehabilitating scorned women, which is now kind of
Speaker 2: everywhere everywhere.
Speaker 1: Now it's like a cottage industry. I feel like there's
Speaker 1: like a whole industry of people just trying to.
Speaker 2: Find people in fact that maybe don't deserve to be some.
Speaker 3: People who don't deserve it.
Speaker 1: But also, I think what's important about the way you
Speaker 1: did it, and I will die on this hill, is
Speaker 1: that a lot of these women have not participated in
Speaker 1: the retelling of their own stories, and in some ways
Speaker 1: that is really complicated because we're trying to say that
Speaker 1: the media exploited Brittany, but then at the same time,
Speaker 1: a new batch of people are choosing to sort of
Speaker 1: mine Britney's story without her consent or participation, and so
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a complicated dynamic. And I
Speaker 1: think what's really important about your work is that you've
Speaker 1: always sort of involved the women at the center of
Speaker 1: the stories and given them an opportunity to tell their version.
Speaker 2: They were instrumental to the pieces.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I think that's really important and also just
Speaker 1: very journalistic. I really admire that you're a very solid journalist,
Speaker 1: which thanks.
Speaker 3: What say about everyone.
Speaker 1: And I think it's important to note that you wrote
Speaker 1: a great book call Feminist Fight Club, about an actual
Speaker 1: feminist fight club you were in, So I'll let you
Speaker 1: describe that, so I don't butcher it.
Speaker 3: But that book was amazing and was a bestseller.
Speaker 1: And then you wrote another book with The Times right
Speaker 1: called This Is eighteen.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the photography book where we documented the lives of
Speaker 2: eighteen year old girls around the world.
Speaker 1: Oh, amazing, I think I saw the New York Times piece,
Speaker 1: but he didn't read.
Speaker 2: Fine. It was a piece that then turned into an
Speaker 2: international photography exhibit and then ultimately became a book with
Speaker 2: interviews with the girls.
Speaker 3: Oh amazing. Now I feel like I should pick that up.
Speaker 1: But I have two copies of Feminist Fight Club.
Speaker 3: I would like to add and send it to like
Speaker 3: everyone I know. So it's a great book. And if
Speaker 3: you have.
Speaker 1: Not seen it, or you have a daughter or a
Speaker 1: niece or someone in your family who you think is
Speaker 1: coming into their own I think it's like a great
Speaker 1: book to give someone. Please try and figure out how
Speaker 1: to operate in the world.
Speaker 2: And in the working world, in the working world.
Speaker 3: Specifically, and that's my little industry.
Speaker 2: That was great, I feel how to do I don't
Speaker 2: know that you even, Oh, I guess the only thing
Speaker 2: you missed is that. But I now teach journalism at
Speaker 2: NYU oh right to graduate students a class called reporting
Speaker 2: the Zeitgeist, which is very fun because I learned as
Speaker 2: much about the Zeitgeist from my students as I think
Speaker 2: they learn about reporting it from me.
Speaker 1: Yes, And actually I just think it's like a fun topic.
Speaker 1: I also taught like two classes at some point, and
Speaker 1: it was really fun to teach.
Speaker 3: I think eventually I want to do that again.
Speaker 1: Yet it pays nothing. It pays necessarily fun. You have
Speaker 1: to really be at a stage in your life. I remember,
Speaker 1: because they paid nothing. I took on two classes at once.
Speaker 1: You know, I had taught like el SAT when I
Speaker 1: was much younger, but real school. Yes, it was when
Speaker 1: I finished my fellowship at Harvard and they asked.
Speaker 3: Us if we wanted to teach at the Extension School,
Speaker 3: and I did.
Speaker 2: Let's go into your bi I feel like I don't
Speaker 2: want to start your buy with Harvard because it sounds
Speaker 2: so snotty.
Speaker 3: And that's also it's like a very small.
Speaker 2: Let's like put that on pause. We'll come back to it. Okay, So, Susie,
Speaker 2: you and I met about a decade ago, and we'll
Speaker 2: get to our whole meeting story.
Speaker 3: I'll meet you.
Speaker 2: Yes, be cute. But you were a really seasoned producer.
Speaker 2: You began your career at World News Tonight, you had
Speaker 2: produced for Diane Sawyer, and then you actually went on
Speaker 2: to become a media executive. Like maybe that's it feels
Speaker 2: like a weird term, but whenever I'm describing you, to friends.
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, my friend's uzy is run like every news.
Speaker 3: I mean, that is not true.
Speaker 1: But I had a lot what someone once described as
Speaker 1: two of the most notorious asylums in media.
Speaker 2: Oh that's great. Gizmoto Media Group Vice.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so Gizmoto Media Group is all the former Gawker sites.
Speaker 1: When Gawker went bankrupt, Univision bought all the sites, but Gocker.
Speaker 1: So so okay, like Jezebel, Gizmoto, yeah, dead Spin, Kataku okay.
Speaker 3: Jalopnick, the Root. I don't want to forget one s winter.
Speaker 1: So I did that, and then I did run the
Speaker 1: newsroom advice for one year.
Speaker 3: But you actually my first job in.
Speaker 1: Journalism well not fun fact fun fac Well, that's so,
Speaker 1: my first job in journals was actually at NBC. I
Speaker 1: went to journalism school to change careers. I had been
Speaker 1: in management consultant, that's right, and then I was like,
Speaker 1: I need to do something meaningful with my life, and
Speaker 1: I went to journalism school for a year and I
Speaker 1: got hired into this diversity program at NBC and they
Speaker 1: would rotate you through all the shows. So I worked
Speaker 1: at the Today Show and I worked at Nightly News
Speaker 1: and at the end of the year, it was really
Speaker 1: low pay.
Speaker 3: It was like even back then, it was so low.
Speaker 1: It was like thirty thousand dollars, which I just remember
Speaker 1: going into credit card got that year. Yeah, And when
Speaker 1: the year was over, they offered me a job at
Speaker 1: the Today Show, but it was like four thirty five
Speaker 1: thousand dollars something like.
Speaker 3: I was just like, that's untenable for me.
Speaker 1: And somehow I got connected to someone who was starting
Speaker 1: a new show called a Wife Swap, and I worked
Speaker 1: as an associate producer on the first year of Wife Wop.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's great, you really there's a lot of high
Speaker 2: low in your bio.
Speaker 3: Yes, there's a lot of high low.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because sometimes in my career
Speaker 1: there have been points in my career where people have
Speaker 1: told me not to talk about the low, like where
Speaker 1: people have been like, maybe I don't want to tell
Speaker 1: people about why Swap. And I've always rejected that because
Speaker 1: I think it's part of what makes me an interesting
Speaker 1: producer and an interesting journalist is that I really embrace
Speaker 1: a lot of variable yes projects.
Speaker 2: Yes, And I actually think that's one of the subjects
Speaker 2: that we bond over, like that's a lot of what
Speaker 2: we're trying to do here, which we'll talk a little
Speaker 2: bit more about, but it's looking at some elements of
Speaker 2: quote unquote low culture in a smart way, in a
Speaker 2: meaningful way. Okay, let's not forget the documentary that you
Speaker 2: produced and directed about Donald Trump and the political press
Speaker 2: called Enemies of the People.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So I did this fellowship at Harvard, which all my
Speaker 1: friends are gonna die that. That's how we started this
Speaker 1: conversation because they just love to give me a shit
Speaker 1: about this, like they're like, oh, is this your.
Speaker 3: Harvard magazine, and like where is your Harvard Mud.
Speaker 1: They just think it's so funny because I'm not actually
Speaker 1: the kind of person you would associate with that.
Speaker 2: I went to Barnard, right, I.
Speaker 3: Went to Barnard undergrad.
Speaker 1: I went to Columbia for grad school, where like a
Speaker 1: Barnard Columbia family fear and through which I guess is
Speaker 1: also obnoxious. I mean come from a family like we
Speaker 1: were an immigrant family, so those things were so important
Speaker 1: to my family, you know, immigrants from Iran, immigrants from Iran.
Speaker 3: I'm Iranian.
Speaker 1: So I did this fellowship and then I came back
Speaker 1: to New York and I had my first executive job
Speaker 1: or management job is probably more correct. And I was
Speaker 1: working at this small place and it was like the
Speaker 1: Vanity Project for like a very nice, rich Israeli millionaire.
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure some people don't think he's very nice,
Speaker 1: because I don't know how you become a millionaire by
Speaker 1: being very nice. But who you know had just started
Speaker 1: this project and was paying us pretty good money. And
Speaker 1: we had a lot of really cool people who were
Speaker 1: working with us, people I still keep in touch with
Speaker 1: and who've had amazing careers.
Speaker 3: That shop was called evocative. It no longer exists.
Speaker 2: Right, Remember that I wasn't I a consultant there? For
Speaker 2: like one second, I think you were. Yeah, I don't
Speaker 2: know that.
Speaker 3: You actually introduced me to the person who hired me there.
Speaker 2: I'm actually consulted on I think, but yeah, or received
Speaker 2: a patient anyway.
Speaker 3: But so that was winding down.
Speaker 1: It became clear that he was, oh, wait, you can't
Speaker 1: make any money in media, and I was I could
Speaker 1: have told you that.
Speaker 3: But thank you for keeping me employed for a few years.
Speaker 1: And I had a friend who was running the Schwarenstein
Speaker 1: Center at Harvard, and I just love how many times.
Speaker 3: I've had just in that way expect I got Media.
Speaker 1: And Politics policy center that they have, and he approached
Speaker 1: me and asked if I was interested in doing a project,
Speaker 1: And initially I pitched an oral history, like a written
Speaker 1: oral history, because we had been covering the Trump campaign
Speaker 1: kind of tangentially, like we were really focused on technology
Speaker 1: in that newsroom, so we weren't like a general politics shop,
Speaker 1: and we didn't send someone out to cover it. And
Speaker 1: I just watched all these people I knew making really
Speaker 1: hard decisions about how to cover that campaign, and I
Speaker 1: just did not think I would necessarily have done a
Speaker 1: better job, Like it just seems so hard to cover
Speaker 1: that campaign and know how to do it because Trump
Speaker 1: just changed the playbook so much and people were constantly
Speaker 1: playing catch up.
Speaker 3: And I was just curious.
Speaker 1: It was in twenty seventeen, and I was genuinely curious
Speaker 1: to just interview all these people I knew about.
Speaker 3: What it felt like to be in the eye of
Speaker 3: that storm.
Speaker 1: Because so many things happened every day during the Trump
Speaker 1: presidency that it was easy to forget what had happened
Speaker 1: the week before. And so this friend of mine came
Speaker 1: back to me and said, what if we made a film,
Speaker 1: and so that's how the documentary happened. It was like
Speaker 1: very lucky, to be honest, Like, I feel really lucky
Speaker 1: to have had that opportunity and people can still watch
Speaker 1: it so enemies of the people on YouTube. And I
Speaker 1: think what's sort of interesting about it is I did
Speaker 1: talk to people like Jeff Sucker and Jake Tapper and
Speaker 1: also like Maggie hammermarn and like lots of people who
Speaker 1: were covering it at the time for newspapers and for TV.
Speaker 1: And I think the thing that's interesting is now we're
Speaker 1: getting to another election and it feels like people are
Speaker 1: just making the same mistakes again, and that has been
Speaker 1: really hard to watch. I have to say, people who
Speaker 1: were in the movie have said things where I'm like,
Speaker 1: but you you're doing that or just doing the same thing.
Speaker 3: It's very hard to watch. And so I feel like
Speaker 3: maybe it didn't make as big a dent as I
Speaker 3: hoped it would, all.
Speaker 2: Right, so maybe you need a part two, or maybe
Speaker 2: we need to repromote it a little bit and get
Speaker 2: people to watch it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about.
Speaker 2: How we met. So I was at Newsweek and that
Speaker 2: was my first real job out of college. I'd done,
Speaker 2: like as you did back then, a bunch of bunch
Speaker 2: of paid internships. I was working in a bar to
Speaker 2: actually pay my rent. And then I finally got hired
Speaker 2: at Newsweek, and I spent a number of years there,
Speaker 2: and then at a certain point Newsweek, which then was
Speaker 2: like still a real magazine and very important, respected magazine.
Speaker 2: It had one time been my dream job. It got
Speaker 2: put up for sale. It was put up for sale
Speaker 2: by the Washington Post company, which owned it, and it
Speaker 2: was sold to a ninety year old man named Sidney
Speaker 2: Harmon for one dollar plus debt, and then he died,
Speaker 2: and so it was like, do we have jobs? Do
Speaker 2: we not have jobs? And then Tina Brown came forward
Speaker 2: and was going to edit the magazine, and Tina Brown
Speaker 2: was running The Daily Beast. Had you worked at the
Speaker 2: Daily Beast at that point?
Speaker 3: No, So what happened was I interviewed at the Daily Beast. Huh?
Speaker 3: And then I turned and noticed at ABC News, which
Speaker 3: is where I was at.
Speaker 1: Huh.
Speaker 3: And by the time I started my job like a
Speaker 3: month later.
Speaker 2: The okay, and so it was always referred to as
Speaker 2: like this marriage of brands and all of the new
Speaker 2: zeok reporters who had to add Daily Beast into their
Speaker 2: email addresses. So like I was Jessica dot Bennett at
Speaker 2: Newsweek dot com and then suddenly I was Jessica du
Speaker 2: Benett at Newsweek Dailybeast dot com. Try spelling that out
Speaker 2: to someone who needs to email you. They're like, what
Speaker 2: in the hell is this? We were like, we hate this.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was definitely like not a happy marriage.
Speaker 2: It was not a happy marriage. But in my recollection,
Speaker 2: I don't know. It was like a couple of weeks
Speaker 2: after this merger occurred, we were now all in the
Speaker 2: same office and Tina Brown was putting on her Women
Speaker 2: in the World conference, which was this big event, live
Speaker 2: journalism event. It was at Lincoln Center, I think.
Speaker 1: No, So the year we did it, okay, eventually it
Speaker 1: would be at Lincoln Center, but the year we did it,
Speaker 1: it was at like some hotel in Midtown called like
Speaker 1: the Millennium.
Speaker 2: Oh that's right, okay, like across from like a barbecue
Speaker 2: blaze and well, so I specifically remember being in like
Speaker 2: some sad, small hotel room where all the producers were
Speaker 2: and it was absolute chaos. Someone was crying, there were
Speaker 2: papers being thrown, someone had dropped out. I was being
Speaker 2: asked to produce a live journalism thing like I didn't
Speaker 2: know anything about production at that point, and you were
Speaker 2: in there, and at one point we didn't know each other,
Speaker 2: and we just looked at each other and we're like,
Speaker 2: what the fuck? Like, this is this as crazy as
Speaker 2: it SAMs.
Speaker 1: I just loved that your memory of this is us
Speaker 1: locking eyes across a crowded room.
Speaker 3: It really is like a romantic moment.
Speaker 2: Yes, And then I think we, well, you might remember
Speaker 2: it differently, but then in my recollection we left this room,
Speaker 2: we're like, do you want to get coffee? Can we
Speaker 2: talk about how insane same this is?
Speaker 1: So the slight difference, I think that is kind of
Speaker 1: how I remember it, although I don't have quite as
Speaker 1: romantic a moment. But what I remember is that I
Speaker 1: started and literally I had to go to the newsweek offices,
Speaker 1: which I had.
Speaker 3: Never seen for my first day, to get my paperwork.
Speaker 1: And on my way up to get my paperwork, I
Speaker 1: was like in an elevator with two people who had
Speaker 1: just been laid off.
Speaker 3: From the tech too. It was very intense.
Speaker 1: And I get there and this guy introduces himself to me,
Speaker 1: who would be Ramane Situto, one of our close friends
Speaker 1: who is now the editor in chief of Variety, but
Speaker 1: at that time was your work husband and a writer
Speaker 1: and news Week, and he was like, are you Irunian?
Speaker 1: And we bonded over that, okay, and then he was like, oh,
Speaker 1: are you going to women in the world. You have
Speaker 1: to find Jess. She'll make everything better. And I was like, okay,
Speaker 1: And so I do know that at some point we
Speaker 1: met and I was like, oh, your Jess. So like
Speaker 1: I was looking for you, but I don't think you
Speaker 1: were looking for.
Speaker 2: My Yeah, but I didn't know I was.
Speaker 3: You didn't know, You didn't know, but you were. Wow,
Speaker 3: this is so embarrassing for us. It's like, get a room.
Speaker 1: But also I do remember getting there and being like
Speaker 1: everyone is like crying and screaming.
Speaker 3: It was a very like very crazy atmosphere.
Speaker 2: Yes, things being thrown, yeah, really really wild.
Speaker 1: For some reason, that conference just made everybody craze.
Speaker 2: It was like a pressure cooker and all around it
Speaker 2: people were being laid off. The magazine was it was like,
Speaker 2: are we going to even print anymore? What is going on?
Speaker 3: What is my job?
Speaker 2: When I started there, I hit kind of the tail
Speaker 2: end of it in that you know, we were still
Speaker 2: in the old building. It had this beautiful view of
Speaker 2: Central Park. I had my own office when I got
Speaker 2: a promotion. It had a view of the park. We
Speaker 2: had town car rides home if you stayed past I
Speaker 2: think seven pm. On Thursday nights, there was this like
Speaker 2: beautiful catered dinner that would be up on the eighteenth
Speaker 2: floor are with a view of the city. And it
Speaker 2: was like wine and ship whatever, drinks and like whatever.
Speaker 3: I did not get any of it.
Speaker 2: That got cut very quickly, but for a moment it
Speaker 2: was really crazy.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And also like at magazines, the editors used to
Speaker 1: have their own standing like town car that we take
Speaker 1: them to and from their jobs. And in TV it
Speaker 1: was the same way, like the hosts and the executives
Speaker 1: all have cars waiting outside.
Speaker 3: Like now they don't do it that way.
Speaker 2: But totally, and I feel that that was the only
Speaker 2: office I will ever have, only private office I will
Speaker 2: ever ever have, as I like sadly work from my bed.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even when I like ran things, I
Speaker 1: didn't have my own office. That's just not the world
Speaker 1: we live in anymore. So let's talk a little bit
Speaker 1: about what we're both doing so we do live we
Speaker 1: do live in now.
Speaker 3: We're kind of where we are.
Speaker 2: So, yeah, what are we doing now? I mean we
Speaker 2: both work from home. I have a dog, and I'm
Speaker 2: sort of torn as we've discussed between my former ambitious
Speaker 2: self and wanting to be a answer and do different things,
Speaker 2: and this podcast is part of that. I'm just like
Speaker 2: kind of chill. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So it's interesting because I always think of you as
Speaker 1: more ambitious than I am.
Speaker 3: I don't think that was.
Speaker 2: Funny because you were like an executive, like an actual executive.
Speaker 1: I know, I know, it's a really weird thing writer,
Speaker 1: I know, but like I feel like you have like
Speaker 1: ambitious goals and like things you want to do, and
Speaker 1: I feel like I kind of just rode this wave,
Speaker 1: you know, like I never had a plan. I just
Speaker 1: went from thing to thing and hoped for the best
Speaker 1: and sometimes it was the best and sometimes it was.
Speaker 3: The very worst. But I definitely feel like I have
Speaker 3: shifted and changed a lot.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of people say that
Speaker 1: about the pandemic, and I think the pandemic was part
Speaker 1: of it, but you know, I think also running newsrooms
Speaker 1: in this media environment is really heartbreaking.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's like, your.
Speaker 2: Job is to cut.
Speaker 3: Yeah, your job is to cut.
Speaker 1: And I've had to do layoffs almost every year of
Speaker 1: my career for the last like I don't know, five
Speaker 1: or six years, maybe longer. So it is hard to
Speaker 1: imagine having the heart for that anymore, which is why
Speaker 1: I'm doing other things. I work with the Media, which
Speaker 1: is also the executive producer of this show, which is
Speaker 1: a company started by Cindy Levy, who is a former
Speaker 1: editor of Glamour, and it's a gender equity media organization.
Speaker 3: I'm an editor at large there and I'm doing this.
Speaker 1: Podcast and I love this because I feel like I'm
Speaker 1: actually doing something creative, Like I'm actually trying to make
Speaker 1: something and it's new and it's challenging and it's hard,
Speaker 1: which I like.
Speaker 3: But you're in it.
Speaker 2: I mean, I think we've talked about this before, but
Speaker 2: after being an editor for a number of years, I
Speaker 2: was just like, I don't want to be in management
Speaker 2: like that. It's not my skill set. That's not what
Speaker 2: I want to do. I have a lot of problems
Speaker 2: with my own and solving other people's problems is like
Speaker 2: not a thing that I love or But okay, so
Speaker 2: this of course led us both do this podcast. Let's
Speaker 2: talk about the podcast. I recall that I was in
Speaker 2: Palm Springs on vacation with a couple of friends, and
Speaker 2: we were in a marijuana shop, as you do, and
Speaker 2: I as one would be in as one would be,
Speaker 2: although now in New York also but not as good,
Speaker 2: not true, and not at that time, and my friend
Speaker 2: Susie called and I was in the checkout line, and
Speaker 2: you were like, Hey, I've been talking about this idea,
Speaker 2: and you know, you've done all of these stories about
Speaker 2: taking characters in the present and looking at the way
Speaker 2: that we talked about them and framed them in the past,
Speaker 2: and I was thinking it could be really interesting to
Speaker 2: look at specific pop culture moments from the past, and
Speaker 2: what if we called it in retrospect? And I said, Oh,
Speaker 2: my god, that's the perfect name for this thing that
Speaker 2: I've been kind of trying to articulate and have been
Speaker 2: swirling around and have been really interested in. And I
Speaker 2: had just been in the car with this friend that
Speaker 2: I was in Palm Springs with where a song came
Speaker 2: on the radio and she said, Oh, my god, do
Speaker 2: you know this song? And I was like, no, I
Speaker 2: don't know what this is and she's like, this is
Speaker 2: the like disco song that was playing in the background
Speaker 2: when Luke raped Laura on General Hospital.
Speaker 3: Oh my God.
Speaker 2: And you when you called me were like I was
Speaker 2: talking to Cindy about it, and we thought that Luke
Speaker 2: and Laura on General Hospital who ultimately get married, But
Speaker 2: what most people forget is that actually he originally raped her.
Speaker 2: That's how the relationship began. Could be an interesting first episode,
Speaker 2: and so it was sort of like all of these
Speaker 2: things came together, you know, the weed shot, my gummies,
Speaker 2: you on the phone, Luke and Laura, the disco trup.
Speaker 3: It's like another moment of fate that brought us exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think the thing is is that I really wanted
Speaker 1: to do this with you because I felt like you
Speaker 1: bring something that I just do not bring to this,
Speaker 1: which is like a much more intellectual point of view,
Speaker 1: to be honest, Like, you know me, I like love
Speaker 1: Bravo and The Real Housewives, and I watch Hallmark movies.
Speaker 3: Still tell anyone, I have like a very.
Speaker 1: Low sensibility, and also, you know, I like some other things,
Speaker 1: but I'm definitely not as deeply embedded in sort of
Speaker 1: the intellectual space that we are going to occupy. And
Speaker 1: I also feel like, you know, there was this thing
Speaker 1: that we really both embraced about it, which is it's
Speaker 1: not just important to look at what happened to these women,
Speaker 1: although that's really important, but it's also important to sort
Speaker 1: of turn that lens around and be like, what did
Speaker 1: we learn as girls and women growing up and seeming me, yeah,
Speaker 1: consuming these things, seeing what happened to people, and kind
Speaker 1: of what messages it told us about how we were
Speaker 1: supposed to operate in the world and what it meant
Speaker 1: if we struggled in any of these various ways, and
Speaker 1: like what that said about us. So I really love
Speaker 1: that we're getting to do this together. It really sounds
Speaker 1: so cheesy, but it's true. And it's really hard for
Speaker 1: me to say nice things, so just like, don't expect
Speaker 1: this a lot, but which.
Speaker 2: Is one of the things I love. I mean, I
Speaker 2: think one of the reasons we are friends and this
Speaker 2: works for us is that we're both pretty blunt, like
Speaker 2: we say it how it is. I grew up in Seattle,
Speaker 2: which is like the most passive, aggressive place imaginable, Like
Speaker 2: you can't even honk it someone without it being seen
Speaker 2: as like a major affront. So it feels so refreshed
Speaker 2: by people who will just state the thing. And I
Speaker 2: think we both want to do that like that, while
Speaker 2: at the same time wanting to leave some room for
Speaker 2: great area and not just take all of these moments
Speaker 2: and pop culture things and subjects that happened in the
Speaker 2: past and proclaim them quote unquote problematic and thus forward
Speaker 2: nobody shall enjoy them ever. Again, like, it's not that simple.
Speaker 2: It's not.
Speaker 1: And I think also I'm very much a product of
Speaker 1: the pop culture I consumed. Yeah, and I don't think
Speaker 1: that's a bad thing, you know, Like, I'm sure there
Speaker 1: are some messages I internalized that well, I know there
Speaker 1: are some messages I internalized that I shouldn't have. But
Speaker 1: on the other hand, like I was an immigrant girl
Speaker 1: from Iran. I came to this country when I was four.
Speaker 1: It's a lot of how I learned when it meant
Speaker 1: to be an American. Like if I had not had that,
Speaker 1: I would have been even more confused than I already was.
Speaker 1: Like we went from Iran to Paris and then to
Speaker 1: this very suburban town in California, in the East Bay
Speaker 1: of San Francisco, and I definitely was not the norm,
Speaker 1: you know.
Speaker 3: So that's like how I.
Speaker 1: Kind of learned about the world around me. So it's
Speaker 1: complicated our relationship with these things, Like you can love
Speaker 1: something like Bravo but also understand the ways that it's
Speaker 1: not always been great and maybe it's not great. Although
Speaker 1: I will die on the hill that I think Bravo
Speaker 1: is a woman's workplace drama and that we should.
Speaker 3: Respect it as such.
Speaker 2: Okay, well we should unpack that, shall that eventually, and
Speaker 2: I think that's really what we want to do here.
Speaker 2: Every week we will take a cultural moment, whether it's
Speaker 2: a news headline that we remember from the time, or
Speaker 2: an episode of Dawson's Creed which I grew up on,
Speaker 2: or some word that was catapulted into the zeitgeist, and
Speaker 2: we will unravel what was happening at the time, the
Speaker 2: cultural context, and how we interpreted it and internalized it,
Speaker 2: and what repercussions or impact that has, if any, on
Speaker 2: where we are today.
Speaker 3: So we would love it if you went on this
Speaker 3: journey with us.
Speaker 2: Susie, You're so cheesy, but I agree.
Speaker 3: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about
Speaker 1: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email
Speaker 1: us at in Retropod at gmail dot com, or find
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at in retropod.
Speaker 2: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us
Speaker 2: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you
Speaker 2: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram,
Speaker 2: which we may or may not delete.
Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett
Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books
Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen.
Speaker 2: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media.
Speaker 2: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our
Speaker 2: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and
Speaker 2: associate producer.
Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our
Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel.
Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Additional editing help from Mary
Speaker 1: Doo and Mike Coscarelli. Sound correction and mastering by Amanda
Speaker 1: Rose Smith. We are your hosts Susie Bannecarum.
Speaker 2: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers for even more
Speaker 2: check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.