1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:06,520 Speaker 1: I just love that your memory of this is us 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:09,280 Speaker 1: locking eyes across a crowded realm, but it really is 3 00:00:09,320 --> 00:00:10,520 Speaker 1: like a romantic moment. 4 00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:16,360 Speaker 2: I'm Jessica Bennett and I'm Susie Bennacaram, and this is 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,640 Speaker 2: in retrospect, where each week we delve into cultural moments 6 00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:20,639 Speaker 2: that shaped us. 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: And that we just can't stop thinking about today. We 8 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:27,640 Speaker 1: thought we'd take some time to introduce ourselves. I think 9 00:00:27,680 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: it would be fun to introduce each other, so let's 10 00:00:29,720 --> 00:00:30,040 Speaker 1: try it. 11 00:00:30,120 --> 00:00:30,320 Speaker 3: Yeah. 12 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 2: Actually, that's a good idea because I feel like it's 13 00:00:33,400 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 2: easier to brag on behalf of someone else than it 14 00:00:35,720 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 2: is to brag about yourself. And you have a really 15 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:38,880 Speaker 2: impressive bier. 16 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 3: Well same. 17 00:00:39,640 --> 00:00:41,600 Speaker 1: I think that's really fun to look at friends bios 18 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,200 Speaker 1: because I'm always like, Wow, you're so much more impressive 19 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:45,440 Speaker 1: than even I think you are. 20 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 3: So I'll do yours first. 21 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:51,920 Speaker 1: Okay, So Jessica Bennett started her career at Newsweek. I 22 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,559 Speaker 1: mean you started your career a little bit before that, 23 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 1: but that's where you had your first big writing job 24 00:00:56,320 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: and was a culture writer there for a. 25 00:00:58,880 --> 00:01:03,120 Speaker 3: Long time, and then went and ran content for. 26 00:01:03,320 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: Tumblr for a short period of time when Tumblr was 27 00:01:05,880 --> 00:01:07,320 Speaker 1: like really hot. 28 00:01:07,160 --> 00:01:09,800 Speaker 2: Before, I guess I mean Tumbler's sort of back now, right, 29 00:01:09,840 --> 00:01:13,600 Speaker 2: But it was like Tumblr was trying to do journalism 30 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:15,560 Speaker 2: for a hot second and it was the cool, hot 31 00:01:15,560 --> 00:01:17,959 Speaker 2: place to be and everyone was there, and then it 32 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,199 Speaker 2: became just porne And now maybe it's kind of back 33 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: in retro, and I. 34 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:24,919 Speaker 1: Think it's like a retro thing now. But I remember 35 00:01:24,920 --> 00:01:26,600 Speaker 1: being very impressed when you got that job. 36 00:01:26,959 --> 00:01:28,800 Speaker 2: It was a job and it was a job that 37 00:01:28,840 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 2: had never existed before, and. 38 00:01:30,760 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 3: I was like, oh, of course, just got that job. 39 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:33,319 Speaker 3: She's so cool. 40 00:01:34,160 --> 00:01:37,480 Speaker 1: And then you went to the New York Times, and 41 00:01:38,000 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: I think a thing most people know about you is 42 00:01:40,160 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: that you were the first gender editor ever at the Times, 43 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: which is very impressive. And then I think they don't 44 00:01:46,680 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: have the gender editor well anymore. 45 00:01:48,480 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 2: Right, there's no longer a gender editor, which. 46 00:01:50,880 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 3: Is I think is interesting. 47 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean, I think it shows sort of the evolution 48 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,480 Speaker 1: of thinking around gender, so an interesting in the word 49 00:01:57,520 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 1: and also the idea that lots of things in gender 50 00:02:00,560 --> 00:02:02,680 Speaker 1: coverage it shouldn't be this like isolated silo. 51 00:02:02,760 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 2: But yes, it was still. 52 00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:06,080 Speaker 1: Really important when you got that job, and I remember 53 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:09,880 Speaker 1: feeling like it was a really important step and now 54 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 1: you're a columnist for the New York Times. 55 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:15,079 Speaker 3: I think one thing that's important about. 56 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: Your career, at least I think so, is that you 57 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: started a genre that's now very prevalent, but that at 58 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:25,600 Speaker 1: the time was a relatively new way to think about 59 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: the world, which is that you did the first big 60 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,440 Speaker 1: interview with Monica Lewinsky sort of reframing her and thinking 61 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 1: about what it meant that we thought of her in 62 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: a certain way, and that you've done that a lot 63 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: in your career, that you're sort of able to take 64 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: something that everyone takes, this common wisdom and turn it 65 00:02:41,880 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: on its head and really explore it in a more 66 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: meaningful way. 67 00:02:44,320 --> 00:02:46,720 Speaker 3: I really admire that. Yeah. 68 00:02:46,760 --> 00:02:49,480 Speaker 2: I've always joked that at a certain point I became 69 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:51,320 Speaker 2: the scorned woman beat. 70 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:51,760 Speaker 3: Yeah. 71 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so rehabilitating scorned women, which is now kind of 72 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,360 Speaker 2: everywhere everywhere. 73 00:02:57,200 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: Now it's like a cottage industry. I feel like there's 74 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: like a whole industry of people just trying to. 75 00:03:01,160 --> 00:03:05,079 Speaker 2: Find people in fact that maybe don't deserve to be some. 76 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:05,959 Speaker 3: People who don't deserve it. 77 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 1: But also, I think what's important about the way you 78 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,360 Speaker 1: did it, and I will die on this hill, is 79 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,160 Speaker 1: that a lot of these women have not participated in 80 00:03:15,560 --> 00:03:18,120 Speaker 1: the retelling of their own stories, and in some ways 81 00:03:18,160 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: that is really complicated because we're trying to say that 82 00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:24,560 Speaker 1: the media exploited Brittany, but then at the same time, 83 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: a new batch of people are choosing to sort of 84 00:03:28,080 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 1: mine Britney's story without her consent or participation, and so 85 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,040 Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a complicated dynamic. And I 86 00:03:34,080 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: think what's really important about your work is that you've 87 00:03:36,080 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: always sort of involved the women at the center of 88 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: the stories and given them an opportunity to tell their version. 89 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: They were instrumental to the pieces. 90 00:03:45,560 --> 00:03:47,720 Speaker 1: Yes, and I think that's really important and also just 91 00:03:47,920 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 1: very journalistic. I really admire that you're a very solid journalist, 92 00:03:52,000 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: which thanks. 93 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: What say about everyone. 94 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:58,720 Speaker 1: And I think it's important to note that you wrote 95 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 1: a great book call Feminist Fight Club, about an actual 96 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: feminist fight club you were in, So I'll let you 97 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:05,720 Speaker 1: describe that, so I don't butcher it. 98 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 3: But that book was amazing and was a bestseller. 99 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:11,839 Speaker 1: And then you wrote another book with The Times right 100 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:13,360 Speaker 1: called This Is eighteen. 101 00:04:13,120 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 2: Yeah, the photography book where we documented the lives of 102 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,440 Speaker 2: eighteen year old girls around the world. 103 00:04:18,480 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: Oh, amazing, I think I saw the New York Times piece, 104 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 1: but he didn't read. 105 00:04:23,520 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 2: Fine. It was a piece that then turned into an 106 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:29,120 Speaker 2: international photography exhibit and then ultimately became a book with 107 00:04:29,200 --> 00:04:30,280 Speaker 2: interviews with the girls. 108 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 3: Oh amazing. Now I feel like I should pick that up. 109 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 1: But I have two copies of Feminist Fight Club. 110 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 3: I would like to add and send it to like 111 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:39,200 Speaker 3: everyone I know. So it's a great book. And if 112 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:39,720 Speaker 3: you have. 113 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: Not seen it, or you have a daughter or a 114 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,640 Speaker 1: niece or someone in your family who you think is 115 00:04:44,680 --> 00:04:46,719 Speaker 1: coming into their own I think it's like a great 116 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 1: book to give someone. Please try and figure out how 117 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:51,039 Speaker 1: to operate in the world. 118 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:53,000 Speaker 2: And in the working world, in the working world. 119 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: Specifically, and that's my little industry. 120 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:57,640 Speaker 2: That was great, I feel how to do I don't 121 00:04:57,680 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 2: know that you even, Oh, I guess the only thing 122 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:02,600 Speaker 2: you missed is that. But I now teach journalism at 123 00:05:02,720 --> 00:05:06,839 Speaker 2: NYU oh right to graduate students a class called reporting 124 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:10,080 Speaker 2: the Zeitgeist, which is very fun because I learned as 125 00:05:10,120 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 2: much about the Zeitgeist from my students as I think 126 00:05:12,320 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: they learn about reporting it from me. 127 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:16,880 Speaker 1: Yes, And actually I just think it's like a fun topic. 128 00:05:17,000 --> 00:05:19,719 Speaker 1: I also taught like two classes at some point, and 129 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: it was really fun to teach. 130 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 3: I think eventually I want to do that again. 131 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:27,360 Speaker 1: Yet it pays nothing. It pays necessarily fun. You have 132 00:05:27,400 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: to really be at a stage in your life. I remember, 133 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: because they paid nothing. I took on two classes at once. 134 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:34,039 Speaker 1: You know, I had taught like el SAT when I 135 00:05:34,040 --> 00:05:37,360 Speaker 1: was much younger, but real school. Yes, it was when 136 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: I finished my fellowship at Harvard and they asked. 137 00:05:40,520 --> 00:05:42,360 Speaker 3: Us if we wanted to teach at the Extension School, 138 00:05:42,600 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 3: and I did. 139 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 2: Let's go into your bi I feel like I don't 140 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 2: want to start your buy with Harvard because it sounds 141 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 2: so snotty. 142 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 3: And that's also it's like a very small. 143 00:05:51,040 --> 00:05:54,680 Speaker 2: Let's like put that on pause. We'll come back to it. Okay, So, Susie, 144 00:05:54,720 --> 00:05:56,960 Speaker 2: you and I met about a decade ago, and we'll 145 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,320 Speaker 2: get to our whole meeting story. 146 00:05:58,440 --> 00:05:58,960 Speaker 3: I'll meet you. 147 00:05:59,440 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: Yes, be cute. But you were a really seasoned producer. 148 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 2: You began your career at World News Tonight, you had 149 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:10,120 Speaker 2: produced for Diane Sawyer, and then you actually went on 150 00:06:10,200 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: to become a media executive. Like maybe that's it feels 151 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,320 Speaker 2: like a weird term, but whenever I'm describing you, to friends. 152 00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, my friend's uzy is run like every news. 153 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 3: I mean, that is not true. 154 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 1: But I had a lot what someone once described as 155 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:26,120 Speaker 1: two of the most notorious asylums in media. 156 00:06:26,279 --> 00:06:30,119 Speaker 2: Oh that's great. Gizmoto Media Group Vice. 157 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, so Gizmoto Media Group is all the former Gawker sites. 158 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:36,039 Speaker 1: When Gawker went bankrupt, Univision bought all the sites, but Gocker. 159 00:06:36,200 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 1: So so okay, like Jezebel, Gizmoto, yeah, dead Spin, Kataku okay. 160 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 3: Jalopnick, the Root. I don't want to forget one s winter. 161 00:06:45,400 --> 00:06:47,560 Speaker 1: So I did that, and then I did run the 162 00:06:47,600 --> 00:06:48,920 Speaker 1: newsroom advice for one year. 163 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:50,719 Speaker 3: But you actually my first job in. 164 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,200 Speaker 1: Journalism well not fun fact fun fac Well, that's so, 165 00:06:55,279 --> 00:06:57,359 Speaker 1: my first job in journals was actually at NBC. I 166 00:06:57,480 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: went to journalism school to change careers. I had been 167 00:06:59,560 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: in management consultant, that's right, and then I was like, 168 00:07:02,480 --> 00:07:04,840 Speaker 1: I need to do something meaningful with my life, and 169 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,480 Speaker 1: I went to journalism school for a year and I 170 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: got hired into this diversity program at NBC and they 171 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,160 Speaker 1: would rotate you through all the shows. So I worked 172 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,160 Speaker 1: at the Today Show and I worked at Nightly News 173 00:07:17,240 --> 00:07:20,040 Speaker 1: and at the end of the year, it was really 174 00:07:20,080 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 1: low pay. 175 00:07:20,680 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 3: It was like even back then, it was so low. 176 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,880 Speaker 1: It was like thirty thousand dollars, which I just remember 177 00:07:24,920 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 1: going into credit card got that year. Yeah, And when 178 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:29,880 Speaker 1: the year was over, they offered me a job at 179 00:07:29,920 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: the Today Show, but it was like four thirty five 180 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:33,200 Speaker 1: thousand dollars something like. 181 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:34,720 Speaker 3: I was just like, that's untenable for me. 182 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: And somehow I got connected to someone who was starting 183 00:07:39,120 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: a new show called a Wife Swap, and I worked 184 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,920 Speaker 1: as an associate producer on the first year of Wife Wop. 185 00:07:46,040 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 2: Yes, it's great, you really there's a lot of high 186 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: low in your bio. 187 00:07:49,680 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 3: Yes, there's a lot of high low. 188 00:07:51,440 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: And you know, it's funny because sometimes in my career 189 00:07:53,680 --> 00:07:55,160 Speaker 1: there have been points in my career where people have 190 00:07:55,200 --> 00:07:57,040 Speaker 1: told me not to talk about the low, like where 191 00:07:57,040 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: people have been like, maybe I don't want to tell 192 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 1: people about why Swap. And I've always rejected that because 193 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: I think it's part of what makes me an interesting 194 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: producer and an interesting journalist is that I really embrace 195 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:11,040 Speaker 1: a lot of variable yes projects. 196 00:08:10,520 --> 00:08:13,520 Speaker 2: Yes, And I actually think that's one of the subjects 197 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 2: that we bond over, like that's a lot of what 198 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:17,360 Speaker 2: we're trying to do here, which we'll talk a little 199 00:08:17,400 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: bit more about, but it's looking at some elements of 200 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:24,160 Speaker 2: quote unquote low culture in a smart way, in a 201 00:08:24,200 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 2: meaningful way. Okay, let's not forget the documentary that you 202 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 2: produced and directed about Donald Trump and the political press 203 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:35,080 Speaker 2: called Enemies of the People. 204 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:35,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 205 00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: So I did this fellowship at Harvard, which all my 206 00:08:39,640 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: friends are gonna die that. That's how we started this 207 00:08:41,640 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 1: conversation because they just love to give me a shit 208 00:08:43,840 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: about this, like they're like, oh, is this your. 209 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:47,440 Speaker 3: Harvard magazine, and like where is your Harvard Mud. 210 00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 1: They just think it's so funny because I'm not actually 211 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: the kind of person you would associate with that. 212 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: I went to Barnard, right, I. 213 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:54,720 Speaker 3: Went to Barnard undergrad. 214 00:08:54,800 --> 00:08:56,440 Speaker 1: I went to Columbia for grad school, where like a 215 00:08:56,480 --> 00:08:59,000 Speaker 1: Barnard Columbia family fear and through which I guess is 216 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:01,160 Speaker 1: also obnoxious. I mean come from a family like we 217 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 1: were an immigrant family, so those things were so important 218 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: to my family, you know, immigrants from Iran, immigrants from Iran. 219 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 3: I'm Iranian. 220 00:09:08,360 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: So I did this fellowship and then I came back 221 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:13,000 Speaker 1: to New York and I had my first executive job 222 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:16,199 Speaker 1: or management job is probably more correct. And I was 223 00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 1: working at this small place and it was like the 224 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:22,559 Speaker 1: Vanity Project for like a very nice, rich Israeli millionaire. 225 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,760 Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure some people don't think he's very nice, 226 00:09:25,800 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: because I don't know how you become a millionaire by 227 00:09:27,600 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: being very nice. But who you know had just started 228 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: this project and was paying us pretty good money. And 229 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: we had a lot of really cool people who were 230 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:36,120 Speaker 1: working with us, people I still keep in touch with 231 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: and who've had amazing careers. 232 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,720 Speaker 3: That shop was called evocative. It no longer exists. 233 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 2: Right, Remember that I wasn't I a consultant there? For 234 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: like one second, I think you were. Yeah, I don't 235 00:09:46,679 --> 00:09:46,920 Speaker 2: know that. 236 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:49,160 Speaker 3: You actually introduced me to the person who hired me there. 237 00:09:49,400 --> 00:09:53,240 Speaker 2: I'm actually consulted on I think, but yeah, or received 238 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:54,720 Speaker 2: a patient anyway. 239 00:09:55,840 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 3: But so that was winding down. 240 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: It became clear that he was, oh, wait, you can't 241 00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 1: make any money in media, and I was I could 242 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:03,199 Speaker 1: have told you that. 243 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:06,079 Speaker 3: But thank you for keeping me employed for a few years. 244 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: And I had a friend who was running the Schwarenstein 245 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,920 Speaker 1: Center at Harvard, and I just love how many times. 246 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 3: I've had just in that way expect I got Media. 247 00:10:15,960 --> 00:10:18,959 Speaker 1: And Politics policy center that they have, and he approached 248 00:10:19,000 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: me and asked if I was interested in doing a project, 249 00:10:22,160 --> 00:10:24,959 Speaker 1: And initially I pitched an oral history, like a written 250 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: oral history, because we had been covering the Trump campaign 251 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: kind of tangentially, like we were really focused on technology 252 00:10:31,600 --> 00:10:35,240 Speaker 1: in that newsroom, so we weren't like a general politics shop, 253 00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:37,079 Speaker 1: and we didn't send someone out to cover it. And 254 00:10:37,320 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 1: I just watched all these people I knew making really 255 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 1: hard decisions about how to cover that campaign, and I 256 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: just did not think I would necessarily have done a 257 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 1: better job, Like it just seems so hard to cover 258 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,040 Speaker 1: that campaign and know how to do it because Trump 259 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: just changed the playbook so much and people were constantly 260 00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: playing catch up. 261 00:10:57,760 --> 00:10:58,720 Speaker 3: And I was just curious. 262 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:01,240 Speaker 1: It was in twenty seventeen, and I was genuinely curious 263 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:03,200 Speaker 1: to just interview all these people I knew about. 264 00:11:02,960 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 3: What it felt like to be in the eye of 265 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:05,680 Speaker 3: that storm. 266 00:11:06,280 --> 00:11:08,800 Speaker 1: Because so many things happened every day during the Trump 267 00:11:08,880 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 1: presidency that it was easy to forget what had happened 268 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: the week before. And so this friend of mine came 269 00:11:14,280 --> 00:11:17,120 Speaker 1: back to me and said, what if we made a film, 270 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:19,480 Speaker 1: and so that's how the documentary happened. It was like 271 00:11:19,679 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: very lucky, to be honest, Like, I feel really lucky 272 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: to have had that opportunity and people can still watch 273 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,559 Speaker 1: it so enemies of the people on YouTube. And I 274 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: think what's sort of interesting about it is I did 275 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,959 Speaker 1: talk to people like Jeff Sucker and Jake Tapper and 276 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: also like Maggie hammermarn and like lots of people who 277 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,440 Speaker 1: were covering it at the time for newspapers and for TV. 278 00:11:43,160 --> 00:11:45,760 Speaker 1: And I think the thing that's interesting is now we're 279 00:11:45,800 --> 00:11:49,920 Speaker 1: getting to another election and it feels like people are 280 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 1: just making the same mistakes again, and that has been 281 00:11:53,240 --> 00:11:55,360 Speaker 1: really hard to watch. I have to say, people who 282 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,439 Speaker 1: were in the movie have said things where I'm like, 283 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 1: but you you're doing that or just doing the same thing. 284 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 3: It's very hard to watch. And so I feel like 285 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 3: maybe it didn't make as big a dent as I 286 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:09,720 Speaker 3: hoped it would, all. 287 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:12,040 Speaker 2: Right, so maybe you need a part two, or maybe 288 00:12:12,120 --> 00:12:14,360 Speaker 2: we need to repromote it a little bit and get 289 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 2: people to watch it. 290 00:12:15,520 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, let's talk about. 291 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:35,839 Speaker 2: How we met. So I was at Newsweek and that 292 00:12:36,080 --> 00:12:39,120 Speaker 2: was my first real job out of college. I'd done, 293 00:12:39,200 --> 00:12:41,000 Speaker 2: like as you did back then, a bunch of bunch 294 00:12:41,000 --> 00:12:43,280 Speaker 2: of paid internships. I was working in a bar to 295 00:12:43,360 --> 00:12:45,880 Speaker 2: actually pay my rent. And then I finally got hired 296 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 2: at Newsweek, and I spent a number of years there, 297 00:12:48,280 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 2: and then at a certain point Newsweek, which then was 298 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 2: like still a real magazine and very important, respected magazine. 299 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 2: It had one time been my dream job. It got 300 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 2: put up for sale. It was put up for sale 301 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,559 Speaker 2: by the Washington Post company, which owned it, and it 302 00:13:04,679 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 2: was sold to a ninety year old man named Sidney 303 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:12,319 Speaker 2: Harmon for one dollar plus debt, and then he died, 304 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:15,719 Speaker 2: and so it was like, do we have jobs? Do 305 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 2: we not have jobs? And then Tina Brown came forward 306 00:13:19,200 --> 00:13:22,320 Speaker 2: and was going to edit the magazine, and Tina Brown 307 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:24,800 Speaker 2: was running The Daily Beast. Had you worked at the 308 00:13:24,880 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 2: Daily Beast at that point? 309 00:13:26,160 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 3: No, So what happened was I interviewed at the Daily Beast. Huh? 310 00:13:29,800 --> 00:13:31,640 Speaker 3: And then I turned and noticed at ABC News, which 311 00:13:31,640 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 3: is where I was at. 312 00:13:32,360 --> 00:13:32,520 Speaker 1: Huh. 313 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 3: And by the time I started my job like a 314 00:13:35,559 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 3: month later. 315 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 2: The okay, and so it was always referred to as 316 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 2: like this marriage of brands and all of the new 317 00:13:43,360 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 2: zeok reporters who had to add Daily Beast into their 318 00:13:46,040 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: email addresses. So like I was Jessica dot Bennett at 319 00:13:48,520 --> 00:13:50,760 Speaker 2: Newsweek dot com and then suddenly I was Jessica du 320 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: Benett at Newsweek Dailybeast dot com. Try spelling that out 321 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 2: to someone who needs to email you. They're like, what 322 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:00,160 Speaker 2: in the hell is this? We were like, we hate this. 323 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was definitely like not a happy marriage. 324 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:06,400 Speaker 2: It was not a happy marriage. But in my recollection, 325 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,839 Speaker 2: I don't know. It was like a couple of weeks 326 00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,079 Speaker 2: after this merger occurred, we were now all in the 327 00:14:11,160 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 2: same office and Tina Brown was putting on her Women 328 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,560 Speaker 2: in the World conference, which was this big event, live 329 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: journalism event. It was at Lincoln Center, I think. 330 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:23,280 Speaker 1: No, So the year we did it, okay, eventually it 331 00:14:23,280 --> 00:14:25,280 Speaker 1: would be at Lincoln Center, but the year we did it, 332 00:14:25,320 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: it was at like some hotel in Midtown called like 333 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: the Millennium. 334 00:14:28,040 --> 00:14:30,320 Speaker 2: Oh that's right, okay, like across from like a barbecue 335 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:33,200 Speaker 2: blaze and well, so I specifically remember being in like 336 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:36,440 Speaker 2: some sad, small hotel room where all the producers were 337 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 2: and it was absolute chaos. Someone was crying, there were 338 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,040 Speaker 2: papers being thrown, someone had dropped out. I was being 339 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: asked to produce a live journalism thing like I didn't 340 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:49,360 Speaker 2: know anything about production at that point, and you were 341 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,280 Speaker 2: in there, and at one point we didn't know each other, 342 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 2: and we just looked at each other and we're like, 343 00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 2: what the fuck? Like, this is this as crazy as 344 00:14:58,400 --> 00:14:59,160 Speaker 2: it SAMs. 345 00:14:59,320 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: I just loved that your memory of this is us 346 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:02,880 Speaker 1: locking eyes across a crowded room. 347 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 3: It really is like a romantic moment. 348 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,360 Speaker 2: Yes, And then I think we, well, you might remember 349 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 2: it differently, but then in my recollection we left this room, 350 00:15:09,920 --> 00:15:11,520 Speaker 2: we're like, do you want to get coffee? Can we 351 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:13,440 Speaker 2: talk about how insane same this is? 352 00:15:14,160 --> 00:15:15,880 Speaker 1: So the slight difference, I think that is kind of 353 00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: how I remember it, although I don't have quite as 354 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: romantic a moment. But what I remember is that I 355 00:15:20,840 --> 00:15:23,480 Speaker 1: started and literally I had to go to the newsweek offices, 356 00:15:23,480 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 1: which I had. 357 00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 3: Never seen for my first day, to get my paperwork. 358 00:15:26,200 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: And on my way up to get my paperwork, I 359 00:15:28,160 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 1: was like in an elevator with two people who had 360 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: just been laid off. 361 00:15:30,920 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 3: From the tech too. It was very intense. 362 00:15:34,480 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: And I get there and this guy introduces himself to me, 363 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 1: who would be Ramane Situto, one of our close friends 364 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: who is now the editor in chief of Variety, but 365 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: at that time was your work husband and a writer 366 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:49,640 Speaker 1: and news Week, and he was like, are you Irunian? 367 00:15:49,720 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: And we bonded over that, okay, and then he was like, oh, 368 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 1: are you going to women in the world. You have 369 00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:56,560 Speaker 1: to find Jess. She'll make everything better. And I was like, okay, 370 00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,040 Speaker 1: And so I do know that at some point we 371 00:15:59,160 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: met and I was like, oh, your Jess. So like 372 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 1: I was looking for you, but I don't think you 373 00:16:03,160 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: were looking for. 374 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 2: My Yeah, but I didn't know I was. 375 00:16:05,520 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 3: You didn't know, You didn't know, but you were. Wow, 376 00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 3: this is so embarrassing for us. It's like, get a room. 377 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,920 Speaker 1: But also I do remember getting there and being like 378 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:18,360 Speaker 1: everyone is like crying and screaming. 379 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:21,640 Speaker 3: It was a very like very crazy atmosphere. 380 00:16:21,720 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 2: Yes, things being thrown, yeah, really really wild. 381 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:29,000 Speaker 1: For some reason, that conference just made everybody craze. 382 00:16:29,200 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 2: It was like a pressure cooker and all around it 383 00:16:31,880 --> 00:16:34,040 Speaker 2: people were being laid off. The magazine was it was like, 384 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,240 Speaker 2: are we going to even print anymore? What is going on? 385 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:37,200 Speaker 3: What is my job? 386 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,200 Speaker 2: When I started there, I hit kind of the tail 387 00:16:40,360 --> 00:16:42,320 Speaker 2: end of it in that you know, we were still 388 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 2: in the old building. It had this beautiful view of 389 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:46,800 Speaker 2: Central Park. I had my own office when I got 390 00:16:46,880 --> 00:16:49,720 Speaker 2: a promotion. It had a view of the park. We 391 00:16:49,880 --> 00:16:52,920 Speaker 2: had town car rides home if you stayed past I 392 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: think seven pm. On Thursday nights, there was this like 393 00:16:56,280 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 2: beautiful catered dinner that would be up on the eighteenth 394 00:16:59,720 --> 00:17:02,040 Speaker 2: floor are with a view of the city. And it 395 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: was like wine and ship whatever, drinks and like whatever. 396 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:09,119 Speaker 3: I did not get any of it. 397 00:17:09,320 --> 00:17:12,960 Speaker 2: That got cut very quickly, but for a moment it 398 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: was really crazy. 399 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. And also like at magazines, the editors used to 400 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: have their own standing like town car that we take 401 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,879 Speaker 1: them to and from their jobs. And in TV it 402 00:17:22,960 --> 00:17:24,960 Speaker 1: was the same way, like the hosts and the executives 403 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: all have cars waiting outside. 404 00:17:26,520 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 3: Like now they don't do it that way. 405 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 2: But totally, and I feel that that was the only 406 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,600 Speaker 2: office I will ever have, only private office I will 407 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,000 Speaker 2: ever ever have, as I like sadly work from my bed. 408 00:17:35,280 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean even when I like ran things, I 409 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: didn't have my own office. That's just not the world 410 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:41,040 Speaker 1: we live in anymore. So let's talk a little bit 411 00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,359 Speaker 1: about what we're both doing so we do live we 412 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 1: do live in now. 413 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:45,440 Speaker 3: We're kind of where we are. 414 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:48,240 Speaker 2: So, yeah, what are we doing now? I mean we 415 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:53,320 Speaker 2: both work from home. I have a dog, and I'm 416 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,679 Speaker 2: sort of torn as we've discussed between my former ambitious 417 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,520 Speaker 2: self and wanting to be a answer and do different things, 418 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 2: and this podcast is part of that. I'm just like 419 00:18:04,680 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 2: kind of chill. Yeah. 420 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 1: So it's interesting because I always think of you as 421 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 1: more ambitious than I am. 422 00:18:09,359 --> 00:18:10,000 Speaker 3: I don't think that was. 423 00:18:10,160 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 2: Funny because you were like an executive, like an actual executive. 424 00:18:13,880 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: I know, I know, it's a really weird thing writer, 425 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: I know, but like I feel like you have like 426 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,879 Speaker 1: ambitious goals and like things you want to do, and 427 00:18:22,000 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: I feel like I kind of just rode this wave, 428 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,320 Speaker 1: you know, like I never had a plan. I just 429 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: went from thing to thing and hoped for the best 430 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:32,560 Speaker 1: and sometimes it was the best and sometimes it was. 431 00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 3: The very worst. But I definitely feel like I have 432 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:38,159 Speaker 3: shifted and changed a lot. 433 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:39,520 Speaker 1: I mean, I think a lot of people say that 434 00:18:39,640 --> 00:18:41,800 Speaker 1: about the pandemic, and I think the pandemic was part 435 00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 1: of it, but you know, I think also running newsrooms 436 00:18:45,240 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: in this media environment is really heartbreaking. 437 00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:49,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, it's like, your. 438 00:18:49,640 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 2: Job is to cut. 439 00:18:51,080 --> 00:18:52,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, your job is to cut. 440 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,159 Speaker 1: And I've had to do layoffs almost every year of 441 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:57,840 Speaker 1: my career for the last like I don't know, five 442 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: or six years, maybe longer. So it is hard to 443 00:19:01,880 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: imagine having the heart for that anymore, which is why 444 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,560 Speaker 1: I'm doing other things. I work with the Media, which 445 00:19:08,600 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: is also the executive producer of this show, which is 446 00:19:12,000 --> 00:19:14,960 Speaker 1: a company started by Cindy Levy, who is a former 447 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: editor of Glamour, and it's a gender equity media organization. 448 00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:21,960 Speaker 3: I'm an editor at large there and I'm doing this. 449 00:19:22,040 --> 00:19:25,840 Speaker 1: Podcast and I love this because I feel like I'm 450 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,880 Speaker 1: actually doing something creative, Like I'm actually trying to make 451 00:19:29,000 --> 00:19:31,280 Speaker 1: something and it's new and it's challenging and it's hard, 452 00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: which I like. 453 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:33,080 Speaker 3: But you're in it. 454 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:34,840 Speaker 2: I mean, I think we've talked about this before, but 455 00:19:35,320 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 2: after being an editor for a number of years, I 456 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 2: was just like, I don't want to be in management 457 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,159 Speaker 2: like that. It's not my skill set. That's not what 458 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 2: I want to do. I have a lot of problems 459 00:19:45,600 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 2: with my own and solving other people's problems is like 460 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:53,040 Speaker 2: not a thing that I love or But okay, so 461 00:19:53,560 --> 00:20:16,560 Speaker 2: this of course led us both do this podcast. Let's 462 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,960 Speaker 2: talk about the podcast. I recall that I was in 463 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: Palm Springs on vacation with a couple of friends, and 464 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 2: we were in a marijuana shop, as you do, and 465 00:20:28,000 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 2: I as one would be in as one would be, 466 00:20:30,240 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: although now in New York also but not as good, 467 00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 2: not true, and not at that time, and my friend 468 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 2: Susie called and I was in the checkout line, and 469 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,159 Speaker 2: you were like, Hey, I've been talking about this idea, 470 00:20:43,760 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 2: and you know, you've done all of these stories about 471 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,160 Speaker 2: taking characters in the present and looking at the way 472 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 2: that we talked about them and framed them in the past, 473 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 2: and I was thinking it could be really interesting to 474 00:20:54,680 --> 00:20:57,560 Speaker 2: look at specific pop culture moments from the past, and 475 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:02,239 Speaker 2: what if we called it in retrospect? And I said, Oh, 476 00:21:02,320 --> 00:21:05,639 Speaker 2: my god, that's the perfect name for this thing that 477 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,959 Speaker 2: I've been kind of trying to articulate and have been 478 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 2: swirling around and have been really interested in. And I 479 00:21:11,160 --> 00:21:13,760 Speaker 2: had just been in the car with this friend that 480 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:16,880 Speaker 2: I was in Palm Springs with where a song came 481 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:19,560 Speaker 2: on the radio and she said, Oh, my god, do 482 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: you know this song? And I was like, no, I 483 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 2: don't know what this is and she's like, this is 484 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:25,720 Speaker 2: the like disco song that was playing in the background 485 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:28,240 Speaker 2: when Luke raped Laura on General Hospital. 486 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 3: Oh my God. 487 00:21:29,160 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 2: And you when you called me were like I was 488 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:33,880 Speaker 2: talking to Cindy about it, and we thought that Luke 489 00:21:33,920 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 2: and Laura on General Hospital who ultimately get married, But 490 00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:40,959 Speaker 2: what most people forget is that actually he originally raped her. 491 00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:44,600 Speaker 2: That's how the relationship began. Could be an interesting first episode, 492 00:21:44,840 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: and so it was sort of like all of these 493 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,200 Speaker 2: things came together, you know, the weed shot, my gummies, 494 00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: you on the phone, Luke and Laura, the disco trup. 495 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 3: It's like another moment of fate that brought us exactly. Yeah. 496 00:21:56,720 --> 00:21:58,520 Speaker 1: I think the thing is is that I really wanted 497 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: to do this with you because I felt like you 498 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 1: bring something that I just do not bring to this, 499 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: which is like a much more intellectual point of view, 500 00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:08,960 Speaker 1: to be honest, Like, you know me, I like love 501 00:22:09,040 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: Bravo and The Real Housewives, and I watch Hallmark movies. 502 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 3: Still tell anyone, I have like a very. 503 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:22,320 Speaker 1: Low sensibility, and also, you know, I like some other things, 504 00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 1: but I'm definitely not as deeply embedded in sort of 505 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: the intellectual space that we are going to occupy. And 506 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,160 Speaker 1: I also feel like, you know, there was this thing 507 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,120 Speaker 1: that we really both embraced about it, which is it's 508 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: not just important to look at what happened to these women, 509 00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:43,400 Speaker 1: although that's really important, but it's also important to sort 510 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:45,879 Speaker 1: of turn that lens around and be like, what did 511 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: we learn as girls and women growing up and seeming me, yeah, 512 00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:55,440 Speaker 1: consuming these things, seeing what happened to people, and kind 513 00:22:55,440 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: of what messages it told us about how we were 514 00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,760 Speaker 1: supposed to operate in the world and what it meant 515 00:22:59,800 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: if we struggled in any of these various ways, and 516 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:06,600 Speaker 1: like what that said about us. So I really love 517 00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,280 Speaker 1: that we're getting to do this together. It really sounds 518 00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 1: so cheesy, but it's true. And it's really hard for 519 00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:16,040 Speaker 1: me to say nice things, so just like, don't expect 520 00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,080 Speaker 1: this a lot, but which. 521 00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,159 Speaker 2: Is one of the things I love. I mean, I 522 00:23:19,200 --> 00:23:21,639 Speaker 2: think one of the reasons we are friends and this 523 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,200 Speaker 2: works for us is that we're both pretty blunt, like 524 00:23:25,359 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: we say it how it is. I grew up in Seattle, 525 00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,159 Speaker 2: which is like the most passive, aggressive place imaginable, Like 526 00:23:31,280 --> 00:23:34,800 Speaker 2: you can't even honk it someone without it being seen 527 00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:39,920 Speaker 2: as like a major affront. So it feels so refreshed 528 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,399 Speaker 2: by people who will just state the thing. And I 529 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 2: think we both want to do that like that, while 530 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 2: at the same time wanting to leave some room for 531 00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 2: great area and not just take all of these moments 532 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,720 Speaker 2: and pop culture things and subjects that happened in the 533 00:23:54,800 --> 00:23:59,439 Speaker 2: past and proclaim them quote unquote problematic and thus forward 534 00:23:59,520 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 2: nobody shall enjoy them ever. Again, like, it's not that simple. 535 00:24:03,840 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 2: It's not. 536 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,119 Speaker 1: And I think also I'm very much a product of 537 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:09,360 Speaker 1: the pop culture I consumed. Yeah, and I don't think 538 00:24:09,440 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: that's a bad thing, you know, Like, I'm sure there 539 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: are some messages I internalized that well, I know there 540 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,119 Speaker 1: are some messages I internalized that I shouldn't have. But 541 00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:19,280 Speaker 1: on the other hand, like I was an immigrant girl 542 00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: from Iran. I came to this country when I was four. 543 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:23,920 Speaker 1: It's a lot of how I learned when it meant 544 00:24:23,920 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: to be an American. Like if I had not had that, 545 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: I would have been even more confused than I already was. 546 00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: Like we went from Iran to Paris and then to 547 00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:35,480 Speaker 1: this very suburban town in California, in the East Bay 548 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,359 Speaker 1: of San Francisco, and I definitely was not the norm, 549 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: you know. 550 00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 3: So that's like how I. 551 00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: Kind of learned about the world around me. So it's 552 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: complicated our relationship with these things, Like you can love 553 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,840 Speaker 1: something like Bravo but also understand the ways that it's 554 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: not always been great and maybe it's not great. Although 555 00:24:53,680 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: I will die on the hill that I think Bravo 556 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:59,200 Speaker 1: is a woman's workplace drama and that we should. 557 00:24:59,040 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 3: Respect it as such. 558 00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:04,399 Speaker 2: Okay, well we should unpack that, shall that eventually, and 559 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:06,359 Speaker 2: I think that's really what we want to do here. 560 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,440 Speaker 2: Every week we will take a cultural moment, whether it's 561 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 2: a news headline that we remember from the time, or 562 00:25:12,440 --> 00:25:15,639 Speaker 2: an episode of Dawson's Creed which I grew up on, 563 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: or some word that was catapulted into the zeitgeist, and 564 00:25:20,680 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: we will unravel what was happening at the time, the 565 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,760 Speaker 2: cultural context, and how we interpreted it and internalized it, 566 00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 2: and what repercussions or impact that has, if any, on 567 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: where we are today. 568 00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 3: So we would love it if you went on this 569 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 3: journey with us. 570 00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:40,399 Speaker 2: Susie, You're so cheesy, but I agree. 571 00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:46,119 Speaker 3: This is in retrospect. Thanks for listening. 572 00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: Is there a cultural moment you can't stop thinking about 573 00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:52,600 Speaker 1: and want us to explore in a future episode. Email 574 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: us at in Retropod at gmail dot com, or find 575 00:25:55,920 --> 00:25:57,720 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at in retropod. 576 00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 2: If you love this podcast, please rate and review us 577 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 2: on Apple or Spotify or wherever you listen. If you 578 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,480 Speaker 2: hate it, you can post nasty comments on our Instagram, 579 00:26:06,600 --> 00:26:08,040 Speaker 2: which we may or may not delete. 580 00:26:08,480 --> 00:26:10,880 Speaker 1: You can also find us on Instagram at Jessica Bennett 581 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: and at Susie b NYC. Also check out Jessica's books 582 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 1: Feminist Fight Club and This Is Eighteen. 583 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,520 Speaker 2: In Retrospect is a production of iHeart Podcasts and the Media. 584 00:26:21,080 --> 00:26:24,600 Speaker 2: Lauren Hanson is our supervising producer. Derek Clements is our 585 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:28,159 Speaker 2: engineer and sound designer. Sharon Attia is our researcher and 586 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:29,200 Speaker 2: associate producer. 587 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: Our executive producer from the media is Cindy Levy. Our 588 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 1: executive producers from iHeart are Anna Stump and Katrina Norbel. 589 00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:40,359 Speaker 1: Our artwork is from Pentagram. Additional editing help from Mary 590 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:44,360 Speaker 1: Doo and Mike Coscarelli. Sound correction and mastering by Amanda 591 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 1: Rose Smith. We are your hosts Susie Bannecarum. 592 00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 2: And Jessica Bennett. We're also executive producers for even more 593 00:26:51,800 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 2: check out in retropod dot com. See you next week.