WEBVTT - Does ECOWAS have a future in West Africa? 0:00:02.400 --> 0:00:09.120 Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 0:00:10.640 --> 0:00:14.480 Mali, Burkina, Faso and Niger have been given six further 0:00:14.560 --> 0:00:17.680 months to reconsider leaving the Echoas trade block. 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:22.200 While the impending exit of Bukina, Fasu, Mali and Niger 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:27.720 from EQUAS is disheartening, we commend the ongoing mediation efforts 0:00:27.840 --> 0:00:32.000 led by their excellencies, President ford Na Simbe of Togo 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:37.920 and President Vasirri Jomaifi of Senega. These efforts on the 0:00:38.000 --> 0:00:43.640 score your collective commitment the preserving peace and unity in 0:00:43.680 --> 0:00:44.240 our region. 0:00:44.760 --> 0:00:47.760 The three junta led nations, the sites of coups, in 0:00:47.840 --> 0:00:51.240 recent years have set up their own block, the Alliance 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.440 of Sahal States to protect each other and leave ECHOAS behind. 0:00:57.080 --> 0:01:01.320 Sixty years of independence, no roads, no war, people can't 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.440 find water. Water is life. How can we live under 0:01:04.480 --> 0:01:07.839 a so called democracy when there are no schools, people 0:01:07.880 --> 0:01:10.720 are learning on the floor, there are no tables. We 0:01:10.800 --> 0:01:13.480 think that times have changed, It is no longer a 0:01:13.520 --> 0:01:14.959 time to talk about democracy. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:15.160 Well. 0:01:15.160 --> 0:01:19.240 Plus, on today's episode of the Next Africa podcast, we'll 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:23.679 ask how perilous this is for ECHOAS and West African 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:27.280 unity and does the block still have any ability to 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:36.399 Defend Democracy. I'm Jennifer Zabasaja and this is the Next 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:40.160 Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each week from the 0:01:40.200 --> 0:01:43.640 continent driving the future of global growth with the context 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:49.760 only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me this week is our 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:54.560 West Africa reporter Katerina hooihe in Dakar. Katerina, thanks so 0:01:54.680 --> 0:01:57.680 much for joining us again to walk us through this story. 0:01:57.960 --> 0:02:02.440 Maybe we just start with explaining what EGOAS is and 0:02:02.680 --> 0:02:06.120 who are its members and what exactly its aim is 0:02:06.440 --> 0:02:07.720 to do in West Africa. 0:02:09.800 --> 0:02:13.760 Yeah. So, echoa's the Economic Community of West African States. 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.160 It's an organization of fifteen member countries and they're doing 0:02:17.200 --> 0:02:21.320 exactly that economic issues, trying to you know, work on 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:26.280 economic integration and development. And some of the most important 0:02:26.360 --> 0:02:29.600 measures they have is the free movement of goods and 0:02:29.720 --> 0:02:33.359 people between their countries to facilitate trade. And then they're 0:02:33.360 --> 0:02:37.320 also cooperating in terms of you know, telecommunications and other links. 0:02:37.560 --> 0:02:41.600 Eight of these countries also share a common currency, the CFA, 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:43.840 and the you know, they have a commission at parliament, 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:48.080 a court, an investment bank exists since nineteen seventy five, 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.720 so should be celebrating fifty years next year may be 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:53.959 done with less members as Pekina Fas and Mali in 0:02:54.040 --> 0:02:57.600 the year are looking to leave next year in January. 0:02:58.480 --> 0:03:03.320 Yeah, let's talk about that because at this summit Echoa summit, 0:03:03.440 --> 0:03:06.880 they called it disheartening that these countries want to leave. 0:03:07.280 --> 0:03:08.200 What's behind this? 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.240 I mean in Mali, Niger and Brikina Faso they have 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:14.959 sort of feeled the band felt abandoned by ECHOS, which 0:03:15.000 --> 0:03:19.120 is partly true. They've been battling Islamist insurgencies for over 0:03:19.160 --> 0:03:21.840 a decade now, which were a little help from their 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:25.959 neighboring countries except for some regional forces participating in the 0:03:26.120 --> 0:03:29.920 UN force. In Mali. There's also the sort of whole 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:33.359 independent struggle after the military coupse, they've been trying to 0:03:34.200 --> 0:03:38.400 seek well their sovereignty from France and which is the 0:03:38.440 --> 0:03:42.480 form of colonial power. Leaving ECHOAS has been a popular 0:03:42.560 --> 0:03:46.000 move among their populations, which has often seen the Echo's 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.600 organization has sort of being too close to France and Europe. 0:03:49.840 --> 0:03:54.040 It all started actually when Nigeria and other countries the 0:03:54.320 --> 0:03:57.240 data EQUAS members tried to reverse a coup in Nicer 0:03:57.400 --> 0:04:02.800 in twenty twenty three by threats and military intervention, and 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:05.840 this sort of sparked a movement from both Nice and 0:04:06.200 --> 0:04:09.280 Mali and Bukina Faso who said that we're not going 0:04:09.280 --> 0:04:11.880 to be part of this. That create sort of a 0:04:12.160 --> 0:04:15.560 how to say, a non aggression pact and promising to 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.120 defend each other if there were have attack, like sort 0:04:18.120 --> 0:04:21.040 of a mini NATO in West Africa, and that has 0:04:21.080 --> 0:04:24.440 since involved into this alliance of sahaz states that are 0:04:24.440 --> 0:04:27.839 looking at both you know, more regional integration economic corporation 0:04:28.240 --> 0:04:31.480 also sort of pooling their resources together their own rich 0:04:31.560 --> 0:04:33.600 and gold and uranium in other minerals. 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.160 How much weight would they carry in doing that, Karina, 0:04:38.279 --> 0:04:40.720 I mean, would they be able? Do they carry enough 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:45.240 resources in order to break off and become this as 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:48.599 block separate from ecoas. 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.800 I mean, I think that depends on how much how 0:04:51.880 --> 0:04:55.279 hard this split is. They obviously still depend on the 0:04:55.320 --> 0:04:59.000 neighboring countries. All these three countries are landlocked, so they 0:04:59.040 --> 0:05:02.919 rely on words in neighboring countries in Senegal, Iricos and Ghana, 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:06.479 so they still need to keep those connections up. Second 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.279 thing is, of course, again the movement of people. There's 0:05:09.400 --> 0:05:13.719 like hundreds of thousands of members from the Malisa Hella 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:17.520 Nica living in the neighboring countries and vice versa. So 0:05:17.720 --> 0:05:20.320 again they would they would still depend on the links 0:05:20.320 --> 0:05:24.839 with neighboring countries so far. I mean, there's other bilateral 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:28.880 and multilateral agreements that regulate all the movements and stuff 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:31.680 between those countries. So if they managed to keep you know, 0:05:31.800 --> 0:05:35.159 sort of tax exemptions, continue to keep the free movement 0:05:35.200 --> 0:05:37.760 of people, you know, the split might not have to 0:05:37.920 --> 0:05:42.560 have that hard impact on them or equesst Countries and Keterina. 0:05:42.839 --> 0:05:45.640 We should note, of course, these three countries that would 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:49.400 make up the aes R Juntelad they have had coups 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:52.160 which I think you mentioned when we when we focus 0:05:52.200 --> 0:05:55.560 on echos though, and there are attempts to try to 0:05:55.680 --> 0:06:00.400 promote and protect democracy. How much legitimacy do they have 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:05.560 because I've read a bit about how their attempts to 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:09.919 engage with a lot of these coop leaders is sometimes criticized. 0:06:10.160 --> 0:06:13.279 I mean, how would you say democracy stands in the 0:06:13.279 --> 0:06:14.080 ecoas block? 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:19.320 The ability or the credibility of echo West Intervene has 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.039 definitely taken a hit since the coups in these countries 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:27.320 and also in Guinea and West Africa since twenty twenty. 0:06:28.000 --> 0:06:31.680 So far their actions and interventions politically have not gone 0:06:31.760 --> 0:06:35.640 far to solve any military coups. The juntor leaders are 0:06:35.680 --> 0:06:38.640 still in place. In the past they have been able 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:41.479 to sort of at least negotiate a transfer back to 0:06:41.520 --> 0:06:45.640 civilian rule, which we've seen in Mali and also in 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.480 Gabon in twenty seventeen when their leader, the president, who 0:06:49.640 --> 0:06:53.080 was lost in elections, tried to stay on but obviously 0:06:53.120 --> 0:06:56.880 so farming. But what's left now is really negotiations and 0:06:56.920 --> 0:07:01.840 trying to limit the impact of an exit, and that 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:04.240 could maybe be done in these six months, hoping that 0:07:04.360 --> 0:07:08.120 tensions between the ECHOS members and these three countries have 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:12.520 east a little since that failure to intervene military in 0:07:12.600 --> 0:07:14.640 Niger about last year. 0:07:15.960 --> 0:07:18.280 And stick with us, Katerina, We're going to take a 0:07:18.320 --> 0:07:19.920 quick break, but when we come back, we're going to 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.920 talk about what these countries do plan to do instead. 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.720 You alluded to that a bit, and whether echoas in 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:30.320 its current form can survive separate from these countries. We'll 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:36.760 be right back. Welcome back today on the podcast, we're 0:07:36.880 --> 0:07:40.960 talking about a breakup in West African unity. We have 0:07:41.000 --> 0:07:46.600 Bloomberg's Katerina joyhe joining us Katerina. What's been interesting to 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.680 read is the reaction from Senegal's president, who has been 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:54.880 very active in at least trying to put forward that 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:59.720 he's trying to negotiate and move the discussions forward with 0:08:00.080 --> 0:08:04.440 these countries that want to break off. Does that essentially 0:08:04.600 --> 0:08:07.480 show that the echo AS members are a bit concerned 0:08:07.520 --> 0:08:11.200 about what this could mean if they do remove themselves 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:12.400 from the block permanently. 0:08:12.960 --> 0:08:15.400 So far, their actions have been very limited. Of course, 0:08:15.520 --> 0:08:18.160 behind the scenes, the spin like you said, Senegal's president 0:08:18.200 --> 0:08:22.000 Pasey or do my Fi negotiating alongside the Togu's president. 0:08:22.480 --> 0:08:25.000 I mean they obviously picked these leaders because the scene 0:08:25.040 --> 0:08:29.280 as pan Aficant presidents and five was elected just last 0:08:29.360 --> 0:08:32.280 year and have since taken a stance speaking for more 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:36.600 sovereignty for both Senegal and for the region. So that 0:08:36.760 --> 0:08:39.520 was at least a good choice, and these leaders have 0:08:39.600 --> 0:08:42.400 been shuttling between the Malinis year and bukin a fas. 0:08:42.400 --> 0:08:47.040 So so far the shuttle diplomacy has not really ritinalely 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:51.120 rendered anything anything concrete. But again, with this sort of 0:08:51.200 --> 0:08:56.240 six months grace period for the countries, negotiations could hopefully 0:08:56.360 --> 0:09:00.400 lead somewhere it's likely to convince the countries to come back, 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:03.720 but it's possible that it could, you know, sort of 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:08.120 limit the impact of an exit of Malinesia and Bikina 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.080 Faso and also possibly set the stage for, you know, 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:14.280 when tensions eases or when there's a change of power 0:09:14.320 --> 0:09:16.960 in this country, that these countries could come back into 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:17.840 the regional bloc. 0:09:18.160 --> 0:09:21.079 Last week, we were speaking with you and Simon about 0:09:21.120 --> 0:09:24.280 the role of Russia in Africa, the evolving role of 0:09:24.320 --> 0:09:28.000 Russia of course after the fallabasade in Syria. When we 0:09:28.040 --> 0:09:32.520 talk about Russia and even China and maybe even potentially 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:35.640 France to a certain extent, I mean, do they play 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:38.440 any role in some of these negotiations, Could they help 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:39.520 ease tensions? 0:09:39.840 --> 0:09:44.080 I mean, they don't play any indirect role into negotiations. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:48.400 It's true that all these countries have moved closer to Russia, 0:09:48.520 --> 0:09:54.199 and some of the Russian intervention, particularly you know, supporting 0:09:54.559 --> 0:09:58.920 local sovereignty and also backing these SUNA leaders has obviously 0:09:58.960 --> 0:10:02.360 given it a position where well, it's more likely to 0:10:02.360 --> 0:10:06.360 be listened to than France, for example, which have lost 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:10.040 a lot of its cloud in these countries. China is 0:10:10.080 --> 0:10:13.679 known for not really meddling in African politics. What it 0:10:13.720 --> 0:10:16.680 could happen, I mean, the sort of the advantage for 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.679 for maybe a country like Russia if Malinisia and Mucina 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:23.280 fas I actually do exit, is that it would would 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:25.600 leave a bigger space for them to act in these 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:29.280 countries as other partners might much struggle to work with 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.000 the JUNA does. That's said, I think Russia is sort 0:10:32.000 --> 0:10:34.280 of at its limits in West Africa at this point, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:36.960 and the engagement they have in these countries is what 0:10:36.960 --> 0:10:39.320 they're going to stick to. That said is clear that 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:42.400 again they've been backing the sovereignty product of the JUnit 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:46.760 does much more, much more forcefully than the than the 0:10:46.880 --> 0:10:48.160 other other partners have. 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:53.240 So then if if negotiations do not yield a return 0:10:53.320 --> 0:10:56.600 to civilian rule, do we see more of these Eco 0:10:56.640 --> 0:11:00.720 West countries potentially going the way of these their junta 0:11:00.800 --> 0:11:03.800 led countries or even feeling a bit less secure in 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:05.199 their own stability. 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:07.640 I think that's the that's the hope of the style 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.960 has stakes. You know, they've been been calling for the 0:11:10.000 --> 0:11:14.160 other countries to join, especially no inviting invite di Senegal. 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:16.920 With the new leader in place, that has again taken 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:20.160 more Pan African stance, and it's also breaking a bit 0:11:20.200 --> 0:11:23.880 with the with the Ald France AFREK relationship. I wouldn't 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:26.560 see any of the other countries. And if the coastal 0:11:26.600 --> 0:11:30.400 countries to join, they benefit of often benefit more from 0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:33.160 from being members of echoas than maybe Marl Nichier and 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:36.640 Bukina FASO has done. That are some of the poorest members. 0:11:36.800 --> 0:11:39.640 They don't have access to the when the same same 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.440 funds as other countries have, So I don't I don't 0:11:42.440 --> 0:11:44.640 think that's a risk right now for ECHO as of 0:11:44.679 --> 0:11:48.520 course it's that has already lost so much leverage. I mean, 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:51.240 the struggle will really be to to sort of keep 0:11:51.480 --> 0:11:55.560 the block together and some reforms will possibly be necessary 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.520 either to sort of get these countries back or to 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.160 to maintain it's It's important is in Newegian. 0:12:02.000 --> 0:12:04.600 And you can read all of our coverage on West 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:08.920 Africa and all the regions across the continent on Bloomberg platforms. 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:13.360 Now here's a few other stories we've been following across 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:17.560 the region. This week, the Democratic Republic of Congo filed 0:12:17.679 --> 0:12:21.880 lawsuits against Apple in France and Belgium, accusing the company 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:25.640 of using minerals pillaged from the Central African nation in 0:12:25.679 --> 0:12:30.920 its products. The complaints allege that Apple uses minerals that 0:12:30.960 --> 0:12:36.160 have been laundered through international supply chains. They also claim 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.280 that the firm has deployed deceptive commercial practices to assure 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.560 consumers that the tech giant supply chains are clean. In 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:49.200 a statement, Apple said it strongly disputes the claims and 0:12:50.240 --> 0:12:53.679 Kenya plans to use IVF techniques to save the northern 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:57.679 white rhino, a species that has only two females remaining worldwide, 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:02.679 from the brink of extinction. It will involve developing embryos 0:13:02.720 --> 0:13:06.120 in a laboratory and using so called stem cell associated 0:13:06.160 --> 0:13:10.320 techniques with ancient material to help reproduce the rare mammals. 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:14.280 And you can follow all of these stories across Bloomberg, 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:17.400 including the Next African Newsletter. We'll put a link to 0:13:17.440 --> 0:13:24.000 that in the show notes. This program was produced by 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.839 Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:32.559 wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks 0:13:32.720 --> 0:13:33.319 for listening.