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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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Speaker 2: Mali, Burkina, Faso and Niger have been given six further

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Speaker 2: months to reconsider leaving the Echoas trade block.

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Speaker 3: While the impending exit of Bukina, Fasu, Mali and Niger

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Speaker 3: from EQUAS is disheartening, we commend the ongoing mediation efforts

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Speaker 3: led by their excellencies, President ford Na Simbe of Togo

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Speaker 3: and President Vasirri Jomaifi of Senega. These efforts on the

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Speaker 3: score your collective commitment the preserving peace and unity in

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Speaker 3: our region.

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Speaker 2: The three junta led nations, the sites of coups, in

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Speaker 2: recent years have set up their own block, the Alliance

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Speaker 2: of Sahal States to protect each other and leave ECHOAS behind.

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Speaker 1: Sixty years of independence, no roads, no war, people can't

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Speaker 1: find water. Water is life. How can we live under

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Speaker 1: a so called democracy when there are no schools, people

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Speaker 1: are learning on the floor, there are no tables. We

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Speaker 1: think that times have changed, It is no longer a

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Speaker 1: time to talk about democracy.

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Speaker 4: Well.

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Speaker 2: Plus, on today's episode of the Next Africa podcast, we'll

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Speaker 2: ask how perilous this is for ECHOAS and West African

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Speaker 2: unity and does the block still have any ability to

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Speaker 2: Defend Democracy. I'm Jennifer Zabasaja and this is the Next

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Speaker 2: Africa Podcast, bringing you one story each week from the

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Speaker 2: continent driving the future of global growth with the context

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Speaker 2: only Bloomberg can provide. Joining me this week is our

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Speaker 2: West Africa reporter Katerina hooihe in Dakar. Katerina, thanks so

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Speaker 2: much for joining us again to walk us through this story.

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Speaker 2: Maybe we just start with explaining what EGOAS is and

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Speaker 2: who are its members and what exactly its aim is

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Speaker 2: to do in West Africa.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. So, echoa's the Economic Community of West African States.

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Speaker 4: It's an organization of fifteen member countries and they're doing

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Speaker 4: exactly that economic issues, trying to you know, work on

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Speaker 4: economic integration and development. And some of the most important

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Speaker 4: measures they have is the free movement of goods and

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Speaker 4: people between their countries to facilitate trade. And then they're

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Speaker 4: also cooperating in terms of you know, telecommunications and other links.

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Speaker 4: Eight of these countries also share a common currency, the CFA,

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Speaker 4: and the you know, they have a commission at parliament,

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Speaker 4: a court, an investment bank exists since nineteen seventy five,

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Speaker 4: so should be celebrating fifty years next year may be

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Speaker 4: done with less members as Pekina Fas and Mali in

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Speaker 4: the year are looking to leave next year in January.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, let's talk about that because at this summit Echoa summit,

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Speaker 2: they called it disheartening that these countries want to leave.

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Speaker 2: What's behind this?

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Speaker 4: I mean in Mali, Niger and Brikina Faso they have

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Speaker 4: sort of feeled the band felt abandoned by ECHOS, which

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Speaker 4: is partly true. They've been battling Islamist insurgencies for over

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Speaker 4: a decade now, which were a little help from their

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Speaker 4: neighboring countries except for some regional forces participating in the

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Speaker 4: UN force. In Mali. There's also the sort of whole

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Speaker 4: independent struggle after the military coupse, they've been trying to

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Speaker 4: seek well their sovereignty from France and which is the

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Speaker 4: form of colonial power. Leaving ECHOAS has been a popular

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Speaker 4: move among their populations, which has often seen the Echo's

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Speaker 4: organization has sort of being too close to France and Europe.

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Speaker 4: It all started actually when Nigeria and other countries the

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Speaker 4: data EQUAS members tried to reverse a coup in Nicer

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Speaker 4: in twenty twenty three by threats and military intervention, and

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Speaker 4: this sort of sparked a movement from both Nice and

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Speaker 4: Mali and Bukina Faso who said that we're not going

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Speaker 4: to be part of this. That create sort of a

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Speaker 4: how to say, a non aggression pact and promising to

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Speaker 4: defend each other if there were have attack, like sort

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Speaker 4: of a mini NATO in West Africa, and that has

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Speaker 4: since involved into this alliance of sahaz states that are

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Speaker 4: looking at both you know, more regional integration economic corporation

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Speaker 4: also sort of pooling their resources together their own rich

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Speaker 4: and gold and uranium in other minerals.

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Speaker 2: How much weight would they carry in doing that, Karina,

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Speaker 2: I mean, would they be able? Do they carry enough

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Speaker 2: resources in order to break off and become this as

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Speaker 2: block separate from ecoas.

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think that depends on how much how

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Speaker 4: hard this split is. They obviously still depend on the

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Speaker 4: neighboring countries. All these three countries are landlocked, so they

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Speaker 4: rely on words in neighboring countries in Senegal, Iricos and Ghana,

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Speaker 4: so they still need to keep those connections up. Second

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Speaker 4: thing is, of course, again the movement of people. There's

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Speaker 4: like hundreds of thousands of members from the Malisa Hella

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Speaker 4: Nica living in the neighboring countries and vice versa. So

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Speaker 4: again they would they would still depend on the links

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Speaker 4: with neighboring countries so far. I mean, there's other bilateral

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Speaker 4: and multilateral agreements that regulate all the movements and stuff

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Speaker 4: between those countries. So if they managed to keep you know,

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Speaker 4: sort of tax exemptions, continue to keep the free movement

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Speaker 4: of people, you know, the split might not have to

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Speaker 4: have that hard impact on them or equesst Countries and Keterina.

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Speaker 2: We should note, of course, these three countries that would

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Speaker 2: make up the aes R Juntelad they have had coups

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Speaker 2: which I think you mentioned when we when we focus

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Speaker 2: on echos though, and there are attempts to try to

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Speaker 2: promote and protect democracy. How much legitimacy do they have

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Speaker 2: because I've read a bit about how their attempts to

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Speaker 2: engage with a lot of these coop leaders is sometimes criticized.

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Speaker 2: I mean, how would you say democracy stands in the

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Speaker 2: ecoas block?

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Speaker 4: The ability or the credibility of echo West Intervene has

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Speaker 4: definitely taken a hit since the coups in these countries

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Speaker 4: and also in Guinea and West Africa since twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: So far their actions and interventions politically have not gone

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Speaker 4: far to solve any military coups. The juntor leaders are

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Speaker 4: still in place. In the past they have been able

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Speaker 4: to sort of at least negotiate a transfer back to

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Speaker 4: civilian rule, which we've seen in Mali and also in

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Speaker 4: Gabon in twenty seventeen when their leader, the president, who

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Speaker 4: was lost in elections, tried to stay on but obviously

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Speaker 4: so farming. But what's left now is really negotiations and

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Speaker 4: trying to limit the impact of an exit, and that

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Speaker 4: could maybe be done in these six months, hoping that

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Speaker 4: tensions between the ECHOS members and these three countries have

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Speaker 4: east a little since that failure to intervene military in

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Speaker 4: Niger about last year.

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Speaker 2: And stick with us, Katerina, We're going to take a

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Speaker 2: quick break, but when we come back, we're going to

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Speaker 2: talk about what these countries do plan to do instead.

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Speaker 2: You alluded to that a bit, and whether echoas in

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Speaker 2: its current form can survive separate from these countries. We'll

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Speaker 2: be right back. Welcome back today on the podcast, we're

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Speaker 2: talking about a breakup in West African unity. We have

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Speaker 2: Bloomberg's Katerina joyhe joining us Katerina. What's been interesting to

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Speaker 2: read is the reaction from Senegal's president, who has been

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Speaker 2: very active in at least trying to put forward that

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Speaker 2: he's trying to negotiate and move the discussions forward with

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Speaker 2: these countries that want to break off. Does that essentially

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Speaker 2: show that the echo AS members are a bit concerned

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Speaker 2: about what this could mean if they do remove themselves

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Speaker 2: from the block permanently.

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Speaker 4: So far, their actions have been very limited. Of course,

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Speaker 4: behind the scenes, the spin like you said, Senegal's president

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Speaker 4: Pasey or do my Fi negotiating alongside the Togu's president.

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Speaker 4: I mean they obviously picked these leaders because the scene

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Speaker 4: as pan Aficant presidents and five was elected just last

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Speaker 4: year and have since taken a stance speaking for more

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Speaker 4: sovereignty for both Senegal and for the region. So that

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Speaker 4: was at least a good choice, and these leaders have

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Speaker 4: been shuttling between the Malinis year and bukin a fas.

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Speaker 4: So so far the shuttle diplomacy has not really ritinalely

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Speaker 4: rendered anything anything concrete. But again, with this sort of

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Speaker 4: six months grace period for the countries, negotiations could hopefully

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Speaker 4: lead somewhere it's likely to convince the countries to come back,

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Speaker 4: but it's possible that it could, you know, sort of

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Speaker 4: limit the impact of an exit of Malinesia and Bikina

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Speaker 4: Faso and also possibly set the stage for, you know,

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Speaker 4: when tensions eases or when there's a change of power

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Speaker 4: in this country, that these countries could come back into

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Speaker 4: the regional bloc.

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Speaker 2: Last week, we were speaking with you and Simon about

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Speaker 2: the role of Russia in Africa, the evolving role of

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Speaker 2: Russia of course after the fallabasade in Syria. When we

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Speaker 2: talk about Russia and even China and maybe even potentially

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Speaker 2: France to a certain extent, I mean, do they play

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Speaker 2: any role in some of these negotiations, Could they help

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Speaker 2: ease tensions?

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Speaker 4: I mean, they don't play any indirect role into negotiations.

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Speaker 4: It's true that all these countries have moved closer to Russia,

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Speaker 4: and some of the Russian intervention, particularly you know, supporting

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Speaker 4: local sovereignty and also backing these SUNA leaders has obviously

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Speaker 4: given it a position where well, it's more likely to

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Speaker 4: be listened to than France, for example, which have lost

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Speaker 4: a lot of its cloud in these countries. China is

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Speaker 4: known for not really meddling in African politics. What it

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Speaker 4: could happen, I mean, the sort of the advantage for

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Speaker 4: for maybe a country like Russia if Malinisia and Mucina

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Speaker 4: fas I actually do exit, is that it would would

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Speaker 4: leave a bigger space for them to act in these

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Speaker 4: countries as other partners might much struggle to work with

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Speaker 4: the JUNA does. That's said, I think Russia is sort

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Speaker 4: of at its limits in West Africa at this point,

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Speaker 4: and the engagement they have in these countries is what

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Speaker 4: they're going to stick to. That said is clear that

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Speaker 4: again they've been backing the sovereignty product of the JUnit

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Speaker 4: does much more, much more forcefully than the than the

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Speaker 4: other other partners have.

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Speaker 2: So then if if negotiations do not yield a return

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Speaker 2: to civilian rule, do we see more of these Eco

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Speaker 2: West countries potentially going the way of these their junta

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Speaker 2: led countries or even feeling a bit less secure in

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Speaker 2: their own stability.

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Speaker 4: I think that's the that's the hope of the style

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Speaker 4: has stakes. You know, they've been been calling for the

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Speaker 4: other countries to join, especially no inviting invite di Senegal.

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Speaker 4: With the new leader in place, that has again taken

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Speaker 4: more Pan African stance, and it's also breaking a bit

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Speaker 4: with the with the Ald France AFREK relationship. I wouldn't

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Speaker 4: see any of the other countries. And if the coastal

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Speaker 4: countries to join, they benefit of often benefit more from

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Speaker 4: from being members of echoas than maybe Marl Nichier and

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Speaker 4: Bukina FASO has done. That are some of the poorest members.

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Speaker 4: They don't have access to the when the same same

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Speaker 4: funds as other countries have, So I don't I don't

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Speaker 4: think that's a risk right now for ECHO as of

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Speaker 4: course it's that has already lost so much leverage. I mean,

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Speaker 4: the struggle will really be to to sort of keep

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Speaker 4: the block together and some reforms will possibly be necessary

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Speaker 4: either to sort of get these countries back or to

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Speaker 4: to maintain it's It's important is in Newegian.

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Speaker 2: And you can read all of our coverage on West

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Speaker 2: Africa and all the regions across the continent on Bloomberg platforms.

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Speaker 2: Now here's a few other stories we've been following across

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Speaker 2: the region. This week, the Democratic Republic of Congo filed

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Speaker 2: lawsuits against Apple in France and Belgium, accusing the company

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Speaker 2: of using minerals pillaged from the Central African nation in

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Speaker 2: its products. The complaints allege that Apple uses minerals that

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Speaker 2: have been laundered through international supply chains. They also claim

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Speaker 2: that the firm has deployed deceptive commercial practices to assure

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Speaker 2: consumers that the tech giant supply chains are clean. In

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Speaker 2: a statement, Apple said it strongly disputes the claims and

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Speaker 2: Kenya plans to use IVF techniques to save the northern

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Speaker 2: white rhino, a species that has only two females remaining worldwide,

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Speaker 2: from the brink of extinction. It will involve developing embryos

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Speaker 2: in a laboratory and using so called stem cell associated

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Speaker 2: techniques with ancient material to help reproduce the rare mammals.

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Speaker 2: And you can follow all of these stories across Bloomberg,

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Speaker 2: including the Next African Newsletter. We'll put a link to

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Speaker 2: that in the show notes. This program was produced by

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Speaker 2: Adrian Bradley. Don't forget to follow and review this show

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Speaker 2: wherever you usually get your podcasts. I'm Jennifer's Abasaja. Thanks

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Speaker 2: for listening.