WEBVTT - It Could Happen Here Weekly 234 0:00:01.680 --> 0:00:03.080 Colson Media. 0:00:03.320 --> 0:00:05.720 Hey everybody, Robert Evans here and I wanted to let 0:00:05.800 --> 0:00:09.400 you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode 0:00:09.560 --> 0:00:12.680 of the week that just happened is here in one 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.520 convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to 0:00:16.560 --> 0:00:19.040 listen to in a long stretch if you want. If 0:00:19.040 --> 0:00:21.000 you've been listening to the episodes every day this week, 0:00:21.040 --> 0:00:22.759 there's going to be nothing new here for you, but 0:00:23.120 --> 0:00:25.120 you can make your own decisions. 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:31.960 Hello, and welcome to it could happen here. My name 0:00:32.000 --> 0:00:34.800 is Dona el kurd I, am a researcher and analyst 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.800 of Arab and Palestinian politics. I'm recording this on May nineteenth, 0:00:38.840 --> 0:00:42.559 twenty twenty six, and this past weekend, May fifteenth was 0:00:42.680 --> 0:00:47.640 Nekba Day. Nakba is the Arabic word for catastrophe, and 0:00:47.760 --> 0:00:51.239 Nekba Day commemorates when close to a million Palestinians were 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:53.840 expelled in nineteen forty eight with the founding of the 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:58.560 Israeli state, so the Palestinian Catastrophe. Hundreds of villages and 0:00:58.600 --> 0:01:02.920 towns were destroyed, and many Palestinians were made refugees in 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:08.480 camps around the new state. In Gaza, West Bank, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, 0:01:09.200 --> 0:01:14.760 and farther afield. Within Israel, Palestinians who somehow managed to 0:01:14.800 --> 0:01:18.080 remain were put under a military rule. As the past 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:22.200 fewers have demonstrated, and as many Palestinians will tell you, this, 0:01:22.319 --> 0:01:26.560 Nekba never ended. Usually I use this podcast to discuss 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.399 current events or to interview someone who is an expert 0:01:29.520 --> 0:01:31.880 on a dynamic I'm interested in and I think is 0:01:31.959 --> 0:01:34.399 useful for people to hear. But today I'm going to 0:01:34.400 --> 0:01:38.480 be doing something a little different and outside my comfort zone. 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:42.800 I'm going to share my personal family history and Arnakba story. 0:01:43.120 --> 0:01:46.600 I'm a Palestinian from Jerusalem. Both sides, my mom and 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:48.920 my dad are from Jerusalem, and I was born there. 0:01:49.440 --> 0:01:51.280 Usually when people ask me where I'm from and I 0:01:51.360 --> 0:01:55.400 say that, they just assume East Jerusalem because that's where 0:01:55.440 --> 0:01:59.080 Palestinians have been sequestered today. They were driven out of 0:01:59.120 --> 0:02:02.360 West Jerusalem nineteen forty eight, but actually some of my 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:05.120 family were from the western side of the city. My 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:08.120 paternal grandmother and her family lost their home in West 0:02:08.200 --> 0:02:11.840 Jerusalem in nineteen forty eight. My grandmother ended up spending 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:14.639 three years in akoby Jab at refugee camp outside of 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:18.960 Jericho because my great grandfather had been wounded trying to 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:20.760 defend the city and they were waiting to see if 0:02:20.760 --> 0:02:24.760 they could return. My grandmother has told me details about 0:02:24.760 --> 0:02:27.720 this time. She talked about the makeshift school in the 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.880 camp that only went up to the eighth grade, So 0:02:31.000 --> 0:02:33.280 my grandmother repeated the year a couple of times and 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:35.919 then eventually dropped out of school because she couldn't continue 0:02:35.960 --> 0:02:38.680 past the eighth grade. Now, the rest of her siblings, 0:02:38.760 --> 0:02:43.079 especially upon their return to Jerusalem, were all fully educated 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:48.000 as adults. Many of them held advanced degrees. My grandmother 0:02:48.200 --> 0:02:50.000 was the only one, as the eldest, who had paid 0:02:50.000 --> 0:02:53.359 the price of displacement in this way. She was trained 0:02:53.360 --> 0:02:56.440 as a seamstress later on, but always lamented that she 0:02:56.480 --> 0:02:59.560 had to leave school early. She also told me about 0:02:59.560 --> 0:03:02.600 her how in Bah, which is in West Jerusalem neighborhood 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:05.280 in West Jerusalem before it was taken during the Nekba. 0:03:05.800 --> 0:03:08.320 This was a newer neighborhood with nice views of the city, 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:12.680 where middle class Palsainian families were expanding their homes as 0:03:12.680 --> 0:03:16.760 their families expanded. My grandmother's family had only moved into 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.440 this house two months prior to the Nekba, and she 0:03:19.520 --> 0:03:21.760 used to tell me how the house had been newly 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:25.160 painted and it was made of beautiful stones. Before she 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.919 passed away, she would often cry over this house as 0:03:27.919 --> 0:03:30.680 if it had just been taken. That house, by the way, 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.520 still stands in West Jerusalem. The last time I visited Palestine, 0:03:33.520 --> 0:03:36.640 and my grandmother's younger siblings showed me pictures of themselves 0:03:36.680 --> 0:03:39.640 posing in front of their house, now occupied by Israelis. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:40.640 Now. 0:03:40.760 --> 0:03:44.720 My grandmother's story is very typical, but also very lucky 0:03:45.160 --> 0:03:48.160 because her and her family they did become refugees, yes, 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.560 but they found their way back to the city. Most 0:03:50.560 --> 0:03:53.480 Palestinians were never able to return back to their hometowns. 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:57.920 They were lucky in that sense that they had property 0:03:58.000 --> 0:03:59.840 and family in other parts of the city on the 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.520 eastern side, and they were able to continue. We were 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:05.240 able to continue. That's how I was born in Jerusalem 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.280 myself because of that. Look. Now, on my maternal side, 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.360 I don't know as much about them and their neck 0:04:10.360 --> 0:04:13.200 of a story. I left Palestine when I was a child. 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.400 I don't have a close relationship with the mother's side 0:04:15.400 --> 0:04:18.760 of the family, and they harbor a lot of secrets. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.000 I never knew much about their histories and their dramas. 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.479 My maternal grandmother is divorced and the family had fractured 0:04:27.520 --> 0:04:30.240 in particular ways, so there was a lot of touchiness. 0:04:30.320 --> 0:04:33.000 Many parts of the family were estranged from each other. 0:04:33.800 --> 0:04:36.680 One thing I did eventually find out when I was 0:04:36.760 --> 0:04:41.480 a teenager was that my mother's grandmother, so my great grandmother, 0:04:42.160 --> 0:04:47.159 was actually Israeli. This was my mother's paternal grandmother, her dad, 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:49.800 that she no longer had a relationship with because of 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:53.159 her parents' divorce, and I didn't have much information beyond 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:57.200 that I knew her name Rachel, but nobody really wanted 0:04:57.240 --> 0:05:00.479 to talk about this Israeli great grandmother. It was also 0:05:00.600 --> 0:05:03.280 an uncomfortable finding for me at the time because I'm 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.000 a past Indian from Jerusalem. The only Israelis I had 0:05:06.000 --> 0:05:09.320 ever engaged with at that point were soldiers, so I 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.400 didn't press the subject. It was just another family secret 0:05:12.800 --> 0:05:15.799 we didn't talk about. When I got older, I got 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:18.360 more curious about this and I asked for more information, 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:22.120 and I asked my dad to confirm whether this was true, 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:24.719 that my mother did in fact had an Israeli grandmother, 0:05:24.760 --> 0:05:27.479 Like this wasn't just a rumor. And he said he 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.559 had met her himself. In fact, he had met her 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:33.080 while I was a toddler, apparently, and I had met her, 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.239 though of course I had no recollection. My dad says 0:05:36.279 --> 0:05:40.120 that during her visit to my mother's family, so this 0:05:40.160 --> 0:05:43.919 would be Rachel's grandchildren and then her daughter in law, 0:05:44.839 --> 0:05:48.520 there had been some argument and they had harangued her 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:51.640 over the actions of her state and her state's military, 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:54.640 and according to my dad, she replied that it had 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.919 nothing to do with her because she came during the 0:05:56.920 --> 0:05:59.760 British Mandate era, she was classified as a past Indian Jew. 0:06:00.640 --> 0:06:02.600 And he told me as much of the story as 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:06.279 he had been told. Rachel was a Polish Jewish woman. 0:06:06.560 --> 0:06:10.160 She came to Palestine. She married my great grandfather, who, 0:06:10.200 --> 0:06:13.080 by my father's description, was kind of a wealthy Palestinian 0:06:13.120 --> 0:06:14.040 playboy type. 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:15.279 They had two. 0:06:15.120 --> 0:06:17.840 Children, and in nineteen forty eight, when Israel was founded 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.000 and Palestinians were ethnically cleansed, my great grandmother and great 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:25.679 grandfather split up. What my dad understood to have happened 0:06:25.760 --> 0:06:29.560 was Rachel left, her children joined her new countrymen. 0:06:29.839 --> 0:06:31.080 And that was that. 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:36.000 So, as I said, Jerusalem was split up. The western 0:06:36.040 --> 0:06:39.200 side was cleared of its Palestinians. There was an armistice 0:06:39.240 --> 0:06:43.679 line where actually the newfound Israeli state housed recent Arab 0:06:43.720 --> 0:06:47.080 Jewish migrants sort of as cannon fodder. One of those 0:06:47.080 --> 0:06:50.159 neighborhoods where Arab Jews were replaced later birth the Israeli 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:53.479 Black Panthers. And then the western side was under Israeli 0:06:53.560 --> 0:06:55.720 rule and Palstinians on the eastern side of the city 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:59.359 fell under Jordanian rule. So the story goes that my 0:06:59.400 --> 0:07:02.880 great grandmother their left and my great grandfather put his 0:07:03.000 --> 0:07:06.720 children in an orphanage. My dad says he heard they 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:09.200 were often mistreated, possibly because their. 0:07:09.080 --> 0:07:11.200 Mother was Israeli. And later, when. 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:13.840 Israel occupied the rest of Jerusalem and the city was unified, 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:16.680 my great grandmother did go looking for her children, but 0:07:17.120 --> 0:07:20.680 my grandfather didn't connect with her, so her son and 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:24.280 moved to Jordan. Now from my mother, I also pressed 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:26.600 for more information. She had never told me any of 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.680 the story, but this year, literally a few weeks ago, 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:32.800 she finally gave me Rachel's last name. I dug around 0:07:32.840 --> 0:07:34.680 to see what I could find out about her. I 0:07:34.720 --> 0:07:37.560 asked online. I got the help of people who had 0:07:37.560 --> 0:07:42.000 expertise in Jewish genealogy, and what I found was a 0:07:42.120 --> 0:07:46.280 much more complicated picture. First, I found an academic article 0:07:46.720 --> 0:07:50.360 about a quote non partisan Zionist youth group in Belgium 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.600 in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties. I don't speak Hebrew, 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.320 so I'm going to mispronounce this. I think it's called 0:07:56.600 --> 0:08:01.400 zeier Ham getting their members ready to make the journey 0:08:01.440 --> 0:08:04.240 to Palestine. That's what this article was about. They were 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.640 nonpartisan in the sense that they included a lot of 0:08:07.680 --> 0:08:10.400 different strains of Zionism, so right wing Zionism, left wing 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:13.960 Zionism among the members, but the Zionism itself, of course 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:18.000 was taken as a given. Now, the article included quotes 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.800 from former members of this group and kind of grainy 0:08:20.800 --> 0:08:25.400 black and white photos of which the name Rachel appeared 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:28.400 in the captions with her last name. And when I 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:31.240 first saw the woman identified as Rachel in this group photo, 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:35.200 I knew instinctively that I had found her because she 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:38.040 looked like a blonde version of my mother. My intuition 0:08:38.200 --> 0:08:41.439 was very quickly confirmed because Rachel was identified by her 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:44.400 married Palestinian name in the footnotes where she was quoted. 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:57.360 So I found her here she was. I wanted to 0:08:57.400 --> 0:08:59.480 know more about what had happened to her after these 0:08:59.520 --> 0:09:02.920 pictures Belgium were taken. The article states that she immigrated 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.600 to Palstine in the early nineteen thirties at the encouragement 0:09:05.720 --> 0:09:09.760 of her quote Zionist mother. But what had led her 0:09:09.800 --> 0:09:13.440 between nineteen thirty three and nineteen forty eight to marry 0:09:13.960 --> 0:09:16.680 and then leave a Palestinian And then why was she 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.480 visiting her grandchildren and apparently me in the nineteen nineties. 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:23.720 The second big piece of information I got was because 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:29.080 of a Blue Sky account puy m Und Genealogy. This 0:09:29.200 --> 0:09:31.120 is a person who works on Jewish genealogy, has an 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.680 interest in it, and he helped find an article that 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:35.840 had been written about my great grandmother in the Israeli 0:09:35.920 --> 0:09:39.320 magazine Mahrev. So shout out to this guy. Now. This 0:09:39.480 --> 0:09:43.040 article was dated June twelfth, nineteen eighty seven. It's a 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:47.640 three page spread and in this interview that Rachel gives, 0:09:47.679 --> 0:09:51.439 she talks about her childhood in Antwerp, her immigration to 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:55.480 Palestine as a young woman, and her marriage. So apparently 0:09:55.520 --> 0:09:57.920 after her civil ceremony with my great grandfather in nineteen 0:09:57.920 --> 0:10:01.240 thirty five, they had traveled Acros Europe for a whole year, 0:10:02.040 --> 0:10:05.640 even meeting the extended family in Poland, where Rachel's family 0:10:05.679 --> 0:10:09.679 was originally from. Her new husband was honored by her uncle, 0:10:09.720 --> 0:10:12.760 who was an important rabbi. Now, for reasons she does 0:10:12.760 --> 0:10:16.880 not outline, Rachel discusses leaving her husband, maybe assuming the 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:20.840 separation would be temporary in nineteen forty eight, But unlike 0:10:20.880 --> 0:10:23.000 the story that my father had heard and I had 0:10:23.000 --> 0:10:26.000 been told, she had not left her children, and in 0:10:26.040 --> 0:10:28.520 fact there had been four of them. She left two 0:10:28.559 --> 0:10:31.200 of them with their father and took the eldest and 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:34.000 the baby that she was pregnant with to West Jerusalem. 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.400 She kept her married name, and she never officially divorced. 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:41.360 I can only assume that she didn't guess the city 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.600 would be divided, or maybe didn't understand for how long now, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:46.439 when Israel took the rest of the city in nineteen 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:50.640 sixty seven, she not only reconnected with her I guess 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.640 Palestinian children, but it seems from this article had warm 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:59.439 relationships with them until the end. Rachel had assisted my grandfather, 0:10:59.520 --> 0:11:04.440 her son in marrying my grandmother, compiling the dowry. The 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.839 children who had been raised ISRAELI had reconnected with their 0:11:07.840 --> 0:11:11.760 family to varying degrees. Some of the Pastinian children visited 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:14.400 the Israeli children in Tel Aviv. According to this interview, 0:11:15.320 --> 0:11:19.400 Rachel even reconnected with her husband, my great grandfather, living 0:11:19.400 --> 0:11:22.800 with him until he passed in nineteen eighty three. Rachel 0:11:22.920 --> 0:11:25.960 had also maintained a relationship with her daughter in law, 0:11:26.200 --> 0:11:31.120 my maternal grandmother, even after her son's divorce. In this article, 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:34.079 I recognized the descriptions of my mother and my aunts. 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.160 Rachel had kept visiting them until she died in the 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.280 mid nineteen nineties, so that explains the visit that my 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:45.200 father had witnessed. I quickly realized that, of course, it 0:11:45.240 --> 0:11:47.440 had been easier for many members of my family to 0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.360 pretend this had never happened, try to keep the truth 0:11:50.360 --> 0:11:54.360 of these relationships from their children. I suppose they preferred 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.359 a neater's story of clean breaks and solid national divisions. 0:11:58.920 --> 0:12:01.640 It is also not long on me that much of 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.320 this obfuscation relies on the common misogynistic trope of the 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:09.880 negligent mother, which was apparently easy for everyone to believe. Now, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:12.960 I won't say that israel Pastinian marriages are common, or 0:12:13.000 --> 0:12:15.800 that intimate relationships between the two groups are easy to find, 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:20.319 but they aren't unheard of. Israeli political parties are certainly 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.720 scared enough of this prospect. They often voice condemnations of 0:12:24.120 --> 0:12:28.040 inter ethnic relationships of this kind. So this phenomenon must 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:30.640 exist at some level, and I guess I shouldn't be 0:12:30.640 --> 0:12:34.200 surprised either, because Palestine's most well known poet, Mahmud Rush, 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.840 was famous for his poetry, among many of them a 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:41.200 poem he wrote to his Jewish girlfriend titled Rita. This 0:12:41.360 --> 0:12:43.920 was the same man that joined the PLO, lived through 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:46.880 the Israeli siege of Beirut, and wrote the pawsdinan declaration 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:52.480 of independence. Now, Rachel's story really boggled my mind in 0:12:52.520 --> 0:12:56.000 its contradictions because she had been part of a Zionist 0:12:56.080 --> 0:12:59.319 youth group, she had actively joined an effort to facilitate 0:12:59.320 --> 0:13:02.440 the migration of your or Jewish population to Palestine, eventually 0:13:02.520 --> 0:13:05.600 leading to the displacement of Palestinians. But she had married 0:13:05.600 --> 0:13:08.679 to Palestinian and in the interview from Ariv, she describes 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:11.080 running to the eastern part of the city when Israel 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:15.160 occupied it in nineteen sixty seven to see quote her friends, 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:18.000 and she says she would marry my great grandfather all 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.760 over again. If she could you see, dear, it was 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:25.160 a great love, she told their interviewer. Ironically, my parents 0:13:25.240 --> 0:13:28.640 and my maternal grandparents, all of which share national and 0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:33.040 religious identities, both ended up divorced, but Rachel and her 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.559 Palestinian Muslim husband somehow state together. At the same time. 0:13:36.800 --> 0:13:39.920 Rachel turned a blind eye to many things, and she 0:13:40.040 --> 0:13:43.560 herself hid many things. For example, she doesn't reveal the 0:13:43.600 --> 0:13:47.200 details of her children raised as Israeli. The interviewer in 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:50.800 the mar Of magazine interview emphasizes that they wouldn't want 0:13:50.800 --> 0:13:55.440 their information known, especially about their lineage. It seems that 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:59.920 neither ever reconnected with their palsinan father and most telling 0:14:00.200 --> 0:14:04.600 for me in that interview, when my maternal grandmother, Rachel's 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:08.320 daughter in law, complains of the Israeli soldiers in the 0:14:08.320 --> 0:14:12.160 neighborhood that she lived in, the interviewer reports that Rachel 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:16.079 feigns deafness and returns the conversation to a discussion of 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:20.600 the children. Now, Rachel isn't abnormal. Israeli society has turned 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:24.720 a blind eye to many things. Many Israelis pretend that 0:14:24.760 --> 0:14:28.200 the Palestinians as a national group do not exist they 0:14:28.240 --> 0:14:30.760 prefer to think of them, preferred to think of us 0:14:30.880 --> 0:14:34.000 as the reincarnation of Nazis, or the modern day manifestation 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:38.320 of anti Semitism, or at best, Palestinians are merely generic 0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:42.920 Arabs with easily sever ties to this particular land. The 0:14:42.960 --> 0:14:45.720 Israeli state even grows pine trees over emptied and demolished 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.520 Palestinian villages to ensure return is impossible and to hide 0:14:49.520 --> 0:14:53.240 the extent of what happened in the latest war on Gaza. 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:57.120 Images and videos from Gaza are dismissed as Ai fabrications. 0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.400 They call it Pollywood, just an effort by Palestinians to 0:15:01.440 --> 0:15:05.040 put Israel in a bad light, and governments the world 0:15:05.040 --> 0:15:07.320 over seemed to have taken this position of turning a 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:10.360 blind eye to the oppression Palstinians have faced and assuming 0:15:10.400 --> 0:15:14.080 Palstinians would live and die never having exercised their basic rights. 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:17.240 All I can say is I'm living proof that these 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:21.760 silences prolong the inevitable, that the truth eventually comes out 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:26.080 and the return is inevitable. The longer we wait to 0:15:26.120 --> 0:15:29.160 acknowledge the reality of the situation, the more people will suffer, 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:33.480 and the more this kind of intergenerational trauma will continue. 0:15:33.560 --> 0:15:36.080 I recently finished Molly Krabapple's book Here where We Live 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:39.320 as Our Country. On the Jewish Bound, she quotes a 0:15:39.480 --> 0:15:45.480 Jewish Bundislivic Hodes saying that quote, belief in mankind is 0:15:45.520 --> 0:15:48.600 not popular today. In these last years, we have all 0:15:48.640 --> 0:15:52.440 seen it become deeply debased, despoiled and spat on. But 0:15:52.520 --> 0:15:54.880 if man is at heart a beast, no amount of 0:15:54.960 --> 0:15:58.800 running away will help end quote. This really resonated with me. 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:03.160 I firmly believe that we can't rely on silence to 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.400 disappear our problems. We can't run from each other. Let 0:16:06.440 --> 0:16:09.200 my family history be a testament to that. When we 0:16:09.280 --> 0:16:13.160 understand that, then the truth and the resolution and the 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.400 return is only a matter of time, and maybe then 0:16:16.800 --> 0:16:21.160 the nakba will end. Thank you for listening and hope 0:16:21.200 --> 0:16:33.120 you all stay safe. 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:36.720 Welcome to It could happen here, a podcast about going 0:16:36.760 --> 0:16:40.200 on strike and hopefully winning. I am your host, Mia Wong. 0:16:40.880 --> 0:16:43.200 There's a concept in You're in Organizing called a hot shop, 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.320 which is a shop where everything is moving really really quickly, 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.280 and people are organizing really quickly, and bad stuff is 0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:52.240 happening really quickly, and people are reacting really quickly, and 0:16:52.360 --> 0:16:56.000 today we are going to talk to maybe the hottest 0:16:56.000 --> 0:17:02.840 shop I have ever encountered, and to discuss the shop. 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:06.160 I am talking to Jackie May and Deja Indigo, who 0:17:06.160 --> 0:17:10.200 are members and organizers of Real You Electrolysis Workers United. 0:17:10.600 --> 0:17:12.240 Both of you two, welcome to the show. 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:15.320 Hi, thank you, thank you for having us, Thank you 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:19.399 for having us on such short notice. You said hot shop, 0:17:19.560 --> 0:17:22.880 and yeah, it's been a week, very hot week. 0:17:22.960 --> 0:17:26.679 Indeed, I had heard this was going on and it 0:17:26.800 --> 0:17:29.840 was there's an attempt to go public. The next thing 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:32.200 I heard was like the next day and there was 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:33.040 a strike. 0:17:32.800 --> 0:17:35.840 And I was like, oh my god, this is wild. 0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:39.879 So yeah, not even a week ago. Yeah, it will be. 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.480 I think by the time you're listening to this it 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:43.439 will be one week. 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:46.040 Yeah, yeah, okay, that's fair. Yeah. 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:48.399 I want to mention this is being recorded on Monday 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:50.919 and May twenty fifth. This situation is moving very quickly. 0:17:50.960 --> 0:17:52.679 There was a chance that things have changed by then. 0:17:52.720 --> 0:17:56.280 We will try to get an update in if something 0:17:56.320 --> 0:18:02.080 really major hass happened. But let's roll this back to 0:18:02.160 --> 0:18:05.000 the beginning. And I think the place I want to 0:18:05.040 --> 0:18:11.560 start is so you all are gets real You electrolysis 0:18:11.600 --> 0:18:16.360 workers United. So you are electrolysis workers. I know this 0:18:16.480 --> 0:18:20.760 audience specifically of it could happen here has a significantly 0:18:20.840 --> 0:18:24.359 higher chance of the general population to know what electrolysis is. 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:27.280 But can you explain for people who don't know or 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:30.000 only kind of familiar, what electrolysis is. 0:18:30.720 --> 0:18:35.679 Of course, electrolysis is the only FDA recognized method of 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:40.840 permanent hair removal. It is a technique that dates back 0:18:40.880 --> 0:18:46.280 a surprisingly long time where we insert a filament about 0:18:46.280 --> 0:18:50.240 the size of a hair into individual hair follicles, and 0:18:50.320 --> 0:18:53.960 with the use of electricity to generate either heat or lie, 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:59.120 we basically kill each hair follicle at its root, and 0:18:59.400 --> 0:19:02.159 that hair, if all goes according to plan, will not 0:19:02.280 --> 0:19:06.800 come back. It is commonly used in gender affirming care, 0:19:07.119 --> 0:19:10.560 and that is one of the if not the specialty 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:13.159 of real you electrolysis. 0:19:12.840 --> 0:19:14.520 Yeah, and can you talk a bit about this in 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.080 a gender affirming care context? 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:20.720 Of course, you know, if you are a transgender person 0:19:20.880 --> 0:19:24.560 and you are undergoing medical transition, there is a variety 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.080 of reasons you might want to have hair permanently removed, 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:33.320 either in preparation for surgery, both in terms of a 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:37.400 transfeminine or trans masculine surgical context, you will need hair 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:39.800 permanently removed from some parts of your body that will 0:19:39.840 --> 0:19:43.040 be involved in that. You also may want to have 0:19:43.240 --> 0:19:47.200 facial hair or body hair permanently removed. Again, this supplies 0:19:47.240 --> 0:19:52.080 to both transfeminine, transmasculine, and people anywhere else on the 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:57.800 transgender spectrum, because you know, not everybody wants to have 0:19:57.880 --> 0:20:00.000 body hair or facial hair. 0:20:01.119 --> 0:20:02.720 Yeah, and this is something that I mean, I can 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:06.160 personally say you can get a lot of dysphoria from 0:20:06.200 --> 0:20:06.760 body hair. 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:09.160 It can be real bad. Oh yeah, I can't. 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:13.520 And not having it is such a huge difference. Yes, 0:20:13.840 --> 0:20:16.080 And I guess a thing that I should say, so 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.439 my understanding of electrolysisms. I have not done electrolysists. I 0:20:19.440 --> 0:20:21.640 have a lot of friends you have. But the thing 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.840 about electrolysis versus like you know, shaving or something, is 0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:29.080 that once you hit a hair follicle, it's gone, and theoretically, 0:20:29.160 --> 0:20:31.560 after you're done with you know, like a bunch of 0:20:31.560 --> 0:20:33.040 the sessions, you just. 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:38.080 Don't have hair growing daring. Yes, correct, And also I 0:20:38.119 --> 0:20:42.280 should note that it is also covered by most health 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.520 insurance that does coverage under affirming care I know we 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:48.840 all have kind of mixed feelings about the w PATH standards, 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.720 but it is considered the standard of care for hair 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:56.879 removal under the w PATH. So, you know, a significant 0:20:57.080 --> 0:21:00.679 proportion of the patients at the really electron this clinic 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:05.920 are using insurance to pay for their care. Yeah, which 0:21:05.960 --> 0:21:06.840 is really cool. 0:21:07.600 --> 0:21:12.840 Not all trans healthcare is that expensive, but electrolysis is 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:16.560 not the most cheap thing if you are paying out 0:21:16.600 --> 0:21:19.639 of pocket and it's really long. 0:21:20.080 --> 0:21:23.159 Yeah, it's usually out of pocket. Is somewhere between one 0:21:23.240 --> 0:21:26.200 hundred and twenty to two hundred and forty dollars an hour, 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:31.800 depending on your provider. And these are weekly sessions, usually 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:34.600 at least an hour. Sometimes they can be less for 0:21:34.640 --> 0:21:39.280 those who have difficulty tolerating it. Some people go for 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:41.840 even more, like some patients may elect to get like 0:21:41.920 --> 0:21:44.879 six hours of it done. But again, this is a 0:21:45.160 --> 0:21:49.640 lot of out of pocket costs, especially when it generally 0:21:49.680 --> 0:21:52.000 takes anywhere from a year and a half to three 0:21:52.080 --> 0:21:56.479 years to fully clear an area. So this is why 0:21:57.160 --> 0:22:00.000 it's so important to have this covered by insurance because 0:22:00.080 --> 0:22:02.679 has it really adds up quickly. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:07.880 Yeah, And I think this is also gets into what's 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:12.880 important about this shop, which is that this is one 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:17.119 of the few Latrills's places I've ever encountered where huge 0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:22.120 portions of the staff are trans. Yes, and yeah, can 0:22:22.160 --> 0:22:24.879 you talk a bit about what that's been like doing 0:22:25.720 --> 0:22:28.160 you know, like doing this kind of gender firming care 0:22:29.240 --> 0:22:33.480 on other trans people who normally could say this is 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:37.760 a medical setting. I can count on one finger the 0:22:37.880 --> 0:22:41.160 number of trans healthcare providers. I mean, I guess if 0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:44.560 you count pharmacists, I can add like a second finger 0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:49.760 in my entire life that I'm extremely lucky that I've 0:22:49.800 --> 0:22:51.160 even gotten one. 0:22:51.359 --> 0:22:54.200 Trans hectare provider who is trans. 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:59.760 Well, it's an honor and a privilege to be able 0:22:59.840 --> 0:23:04.600 to work with other trans people for gender firm and 0:23:04.680 --> 0:23:07.840 care for our community. Because we don't just serve the 0:23:07.960 --> 0:23:11.080 Vancouver area, we also serve the PDX area. 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:15.240 And further, we have patients that commute from hours and 0:23:15.280 --> 0:23:17.000 hours away. That is true. 0:23:17.760 --> 0:23:20.720 Yeah, for people who don't know a little bit of 0:23:20.720 --> 0:23:24.480 geography stuff that will become important later. So this is Vancouver, Washington, 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:27.920 which is just like right across a river from Portland. 0:23:29.160 --> 0:23:33.159 This amazingly the fact that technically speaking, this river is 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:37.400 like the state border will become important in that little bit. 0:23:38.359 --> 0:23:42.760 Yes, yes, yes, it will. Oh boy. Yeah. 0:23:42.800 --> 0:23:44.679 So I'm gonna I'm gonna ask all of you know, 0:23:44.720 --> 0:23:48.119 put a little pin in city that is technically across 0:23:48.119 --> 0:23:50.320 the state border from another city, but is like you 0:23:50.359 --> 0:23:52.760 just drive over a bridge and you're there. Let's go 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:56.760 talk about some strike shit. Mm hmm Okay, so I 0:23:56.800 --> 0:23:59.520 guess to start. Can we talk about how organizing kind 0:23:59.520 --> 0:24:03.080 of first started at at Real Yola Chuls's. 0:24:03.720 --> 0:24:08.560 Yes, it first started because they hired me mi a 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:12.840 and hied me. Ever since I was a little girl, 0:24:13.000 --> 0:24:16.240 I have been enchanted with the idea of a workers 0:24:16.359 --> 0:24:20.680 union and people working together to make their conditions better. 0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:24.640 It is something that I have had to learn and. 0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:28.240 Practice on my own because I didn't know about the IWW. 0:24:29.200 --> 0:24:31.560 It's a thing that I was trying to do before 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:36.879 I moved out here. And then this opportunity just drops 0:24:36.920 --> 0:24:42.480 into my lap and it's queer people, and you're working 0:24:43.000 --> 0:24:46.600 on queer people. I've got hosbumps. It's not because I'm cold, 0:24:47.080 --> 0:24:50.760 and and how could I, in good conscience just like 0:24:51.400 --> 0:24:53.040 let that opportunity go. 0:24:54.119 --> 0:24:59.240 Yeah. Yeah, Jackie May is very much the motive force 0:24:59.400 --> 0:25:05.040 behind getting our shit together and unionizing. I remember from 0:25:05.080 --> 0:25:08.320 the time that I started, Jackie May was talking about 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:13.000 having a goal to unionize the shop. We weren't expecting 0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:17.000 it to be on such a quick timeline, but I 0:25:17.119 --> 0:25:21.359 was really excited to have somebody else who was into 0:25:21.440 --> 0:25:25.920 doing this because I've always been a hardcore leftist and 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:31.119 an extreme socialist communist. I don't know whatever label you 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:34.919 want to put on me workers' rights, like we should 0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:38.119 own the means of production and we should be the 0:25:38.119 --> 0:25:42.000 ones receiving all of the benefits from it. Yea, But 0:25:42.440 --> 0:25:46.919 Jackie May has just been like ready to go. But 0:25:47.560 --> 0:25:51.240 we can also talk about like the actual start to 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:54.359 like okay, what did we actually start doing things to 0:25:54.480 --> 0:25:55.080 this direction? 0:25:55.280 --> 0:25:55.440 Right? 0:25:55.560 --> 0:25:56.800 You want to take that, Jackie May. 0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:01.480 Yeah, So like light to have been going on since 0:26:01.520 --> 0:26:05.960 I got there back in actually June of last year. 0:26:06.920 --> 0:26:09.800 It's always just been real light, real surface level is in, hey, 0:26:09.840 --> 0:26:13.240 do you support a union? Would you like to consider. 0:26:12.920 --> 0:26:13.480 Being in one? 0:26:13.520 --> 0:26:14.000 One day? 0:26:14.800 --> 0:26:16.960 And then I go about my day like converse like 0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:19.359 that's as far as the conversation goes, because that's all 0:26:19.400 --> 0:26:22.800 the information I need at that point. Yeah, so I 0:26:22.880 --> 0:26:27.480 knew who in the building was yes, and last month 0:26:28.000 --> 0:26:31.320 one of our members, someone who was already in talks 0:26:31.359 --> 0:26:38.560 with us, was fired, and the circumstances around that person 0:26:38.680 --> 0:26:45.359 being fired, the vibes were off. Right, Like the previous week, 0:26:45.840 --> 0:26:53.320 there was a dirty cart that just happened to appear 0:26:53.760 --> 0:26:56.880 in her room that would be worth the write up 0:26:56.960 --> 0:27:00.440 to get her fired. Huh, that cart couldn't have been 0:27:00.480 --> 0:27:04.240 hers because before she started school, she moved that cart 0:27:04.320 --> 0:27:10.480 to another to her substitute clinicians room. Like, could could 0:27:10.560 --> 0:27:14.120 not be what management said it was. 0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:17.880 So it looks like something else fabricated to. 0:27:17.840 --> 0:27:22.560 Clarify this union member, This coworker was going on a 0:27:23.080 --> 0:27:29.040 leave of absence to attend a certification training program, so 0:27:29.280 --> 0:27:33.720 that is why she had a substitute clinician taking over 0:27:33.840 --> 0:27:38.280 her equipment. I should also add that this was the 0:27:38.320 --> 0:27:42.439 first time they have ever done room inspections on site yea. 0:27:42.840 --> 0:27:47.040 In fact, the only they've only done room inspections twice 0:27:47.200 --> 0:27:52.560 and both times resulted in a termination. Well that's not 0:27:52.600 --> 0:28:00.719 suspicious at all anyway, Sorry, Jackie Maye, please continue, No worries. 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:03.119 It's okay, We're listen. We're allowed to rabbit trail. 0:28:03.480 --> 0:28:08.200 But we come back to So our friend was fired, right, 0:28:08.520 --> 0:28:14.680 it's super duper suspicious. Yeah, And I saw an opportunity 0:28:15.000 --> 0:28:20.200 and I took that opportunity to talk to people about it. 0:28:20.359 --> 0:28:23.879 And for like a few days after this it happened, 0:28:24.000 --> 0:28:26.760 nobody knew where she was at, nobody knew what happened. 0:28:27.560 --> 0:28:31.359 So the narrative was entirely up to me and just going, 0:28:31.800 --> 0:28:35.200 this is what they did, and we all know this. 0:28:35.520 --> 0:28:38.240 We all know this person, We've worked alongside this person, 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:41.320 we all recognize her skill and how intelligent she is. 0:28:41.920 --> 0:28:46.000 She's going to go on to teach this stuff. It's true, 0:28:46.080 --> 0:28:50.120 and it made all of us scared that one of 0:28:50.160 --> 0:28:56.120 our best could just be removed like that and go. 0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:59.800 This is my understanding. This is a pretty small shop, right, 0:28:59.840 --> 0:29:01.720 like everyone knows everyone else. 0:29:02.120 --> 0:29:06.040 Oh yeah, yes, yeah, like maybe maybe fifteen or sixteen 0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:08.480 practicing clinicians at a given time. 0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:13.200 Thereabouts, which yeah, I guess makes it more scary when 0:29:13.400 --> 0:29:16.520 it's someone you know, when you're close to, just is 0:29:16.560 --> 0:29:17.720 just suddenly fired. 0:29:18.280 --> 0:29:22.400 And I should note that most of us who have 0:29:22.560 --> 0:29:25.400 worked there are also patients there, so like a lot 0:29:25.440 --> 0:29:28.400 of these a lot of our coworkers are not just coworkers, 0:29:28.400 --> 0:29:33.080 they're also practitioners that provide gender affirming care to us. 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:38.680 So we don't just have like a superficial sense of 0:29:38.960 --> 0:29:43.400 the clinical skill of these people. We have direct experience, 0:29:44.800 --> 0:29:50.160 and that makes it just that much more devastating. When 0:29:50.160 --> 0:29:53.520 it's somebody you know is extremely good at their job 0:29:53.840 --> 0:30:01.440 is just suddenly gone under very suspicious circumstances, it's devastating. 0:30:02.200 --> 0:30:06.880 So this gets into one of the truly wildest and 0:30:07.440 --> 0:30:13.000 most distressing parts of this entire story, which is, can 0:30:13.040 --> 0:30:17.960 you talk about the I guess I would just call it. 0:30:18.960 --> 0:30:26.000 The most neutral thing I can call it is the loan. Yes, absolutely. 0:30:26.120 --> 0:30:29.000 So remember when we kind of put a pin in 0:30:29.280 --> 0:30:32.040 the fact that Vancouver, Washington, is right across the river 0:30:32.160 --> 0:30:38.040 from Portland, Oregon. So there is a big difference between 0:30:38.280 --> 0:30:40.600 how the state of Washington and how the state of 0:30:40.640 --> 0:30:45.920 Oregon regulates the practice of electrolysis. In the state of Oregon, 0:30:46.200 --> 0:30:51.240 you cannot practice electrolysis without first going through a certification 0:30:51.360 --> 0:30:56.360 program and passing a certification exam to become certified. In 0:30:56.440 --> 0:31:00.240 the state of Washington, as long as you are practicing 0:31:00.920 --> 0:31:05.080 under the authority of somebody who has been certified in 0:31:05.120 --> 0:31:10.480 another state, you can practice electrolysis without certification. In fact, 0:31:10.480 --> 0:31:13.680 the state of Washington does not currently have their own 0:31:13.880 --> 0:31:20.560 certification framework for electrolysis, so those of us who work 0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:25.640 at Real EU Electrolysis were all hired without prior certification. 0:31:25.960 --> 0:31:29.360 I think there may be one or two exceptions over 0:31:29.400 --> 0:31:33.440 the years, but by and large, the overwhelming majority are 0:31:34.240 --> 0:31:39.440 people who have no prior experience performing electrolysis. So Really 0:31:39.440 --> 0:31:43.720 You Electrolicists does have certified electrologists on staff who are 0:31:43.800 --> 0:31:46.280 responsible for the training of new hires. 0:31:47.080 --> 0:31:50.480 One of the conditions of employment at Real U Electrolysis 0:31:50.600 --> 0:31:55.800 is to agree to sign a promissory note, wherein Really 0:31:55.840 --> 0:32:02.560 You Electrolicis will basically provide a stipend and pay for 0:32:02.960 --> 0:32:08.960 all expenses related to receiving certification from a certification program 0:32:09.720 --> 0:32:16.240 in exchange for four years of work at real Electrolysis. 0:32:16.960 --> 0:32:19.600 Those who sign this note are not required to directly 0:32:19.720 --> 0:32:25.320 pay back any money unless they either fail to complete 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:30.040 their schooling, fail to pass their certification, resign their position 0:32:30.160 --> 0:32:34.240 within four years, or are terminated, and at that point 0:32:34.480 --> 0:32:39.160 they are immediately liable to repay the full amount of 0:32:39.200 --> 0:32:46.120 the promissory note. So essentially, as soon as you enter 0:32:46.400 --> 0:32:51.040 schooling and again this is a condition of employment. Every 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:55.000 single person who has been hired by really Electrolysis could 0:32:55.040 --> 0:32:59.560 not start working without signing a contract. Agreeing to sign 0:32:59.560 --> 0:33:01.800 those prom story note when it comes time to be 0:33:01.840 --> 0:33:02.480 sent to school. 0:33:02.960 --> 0:33:05.480 Yeah, can you talk about, like, how much money is 0:33:05.520 --> 0:33:07.360 it that you have to pay back if you either 0:33:07.400 --> 0:33:08.720 get fired or leave. 0:33:09.200 --> 0:33:13.160 At least twenty one thousand dollars in this case, Jesus 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:18.040 Christ like, oh my god. 0:33:18.520 --> 0:33:22.000 Yeah, it's cartoonishly evil. 0:33:22.640 --> 0:33:26.680 Yeah. I should clarify as well that most of us 0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:29.160 who are hired are not coming into this job from 0:33:29.200 --> 0:33:32.520 a place of financial privilege. Most of us had some 0:33:32.680 --> 0:33:38.200 manner of skepticism over this contract, but because the opportunity 0:33:38.320 --> 0:33:41.120 just seemed so great, and because we had not heard 0:33:41.160 --> 0:33:44.360 any history of, you know, any sort of bad faith 0:33:44.400 --> 0:33:48.840 actions from management, I think we all just kind of decided, well, 0:33:48.920 --> 0:33:50.640 I get to work with a bunch of cool trans 0:33:50.640 --> 0:33:54.200 people on a bunch of cool trans people for decent 0:33:54.320 --> 0:33:59.600 pay and benefits, and they probably won't just fire me 0:33:59.760 --> 0:34:02.640 once I signed this loan, Like that wouldn't be cool. 0:34:04.120 --> 0:34:07.520 And so where this really comes into play is that 0:34:08.040 --> 0:34:12.040 the union member, the coworker who was fired, as I 0:34:12.120 --> 0:34:15.360 mentioned before, was on a leave of absence to be 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:21.520 in school, and basically she was fired and immediately they 0:34:21.560 --> 0:34:26.200 demanded repayment in full of this loan. So not only 0:34:26.600 --> 0:34:32.120 did she lose her job over extremely spurious circumstances, she 0:34:32.560 --> 0:34:35.600 now was on the hook for twenty one thousand dollars, 0:34:35.640 --> 0:34:39.640 like immediately. I think the deadline they gave her is 0:34:39.680 --> 0:34:40.720 in like two days. 0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:45.280 So I want to add something to all of that. Yeah, 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:50.960 they had her sign that loan knowing that she had 0:34:51.200 --> 0:34:54.040 two write ups on the books and that her next 0:34:54.080 --> 0:34:58.120 write up within those four years would lead to termination. 0:34:59.280 --> 0:35:02.160 They knew that they have that on file. 0:35:02.719 --> 0:35:06.920 They admitted that to our faces. We had a group 0:35:06.960 --> 0:35:10.520 of witnesses who can attest to this because we did 0:35:10.560 --> 0:35:13.520 all confront them. That's jumping a little bit further ahead 0:35:13.520 --> 0:35:15.080 in the story. We'll get there. 0:35:16.280 --> 0:35:18.799 Yeah, I just I want to stay here for a 0:35:18.880 --> 0:35:24.320 second to just sort of just walk through how unbelievably 0:35:24.440 --> 0:35:25.480 unhinged this is. 0:35:26.200 --> 0:35:26.600 Which is that. 0:35:26.719 --> 0:35:29.840 Yeah, So the condition of working here is that you 0:35:29.920 --> 0:35:34.000 have to sign like what is effectively an a dentured servitude contract. 0:35:35.400 --> 0:35:38.839 Like it's like, okay, you have to work here for 0:35:39.800 --> 0:35:43.759 like four years, and if we ever decide to fire you, 0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:46.879 you can't leave. And if you ever decide to fire you, 0:35:46.880 --> 0:35:51.080 you just oh twenty one thousand dollars, which just on 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:55.160 the face of it is such an unbelievably exploitive situation 0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:57.160 because yeah, this is a bunch of queer and trance 0:35:57.200 --> 0:36:00.799 people like no, no fucking transperson and has twenty one 0:36:00.840 --> 0:36:04.439 thousand dollars, Like that's just not a thing, Like yeah, 0:36:05.040 --> 0:36:07.920 we should certainly not one thousand dollars, Like what are 0:36:07.920 --> 0:36:08.760 we doing here. 0:36:08.920 --> 0:36:09.080 Like. 0:36:11.400 --> 0:36:13.640 Taking advantage of the trans community. 0:36:14.239 --> 0:36:17.920 Yeah, and then you have that just as the baseline 0:36:17.920 --> 0:36:23.120 condition of just everyone has just the doom of gamaicles 0:36:23.160 --> 0:36:27.080 hanging over their head. And then also, you know, like 0:36:27.760 --> 0:36:29.799 what you were describing were, okay, you get someone to 0:36:29.800 --> 0:36:32.360 sign the contract knowing that you can get rid of 0:36:32.440 --> 0:36:35.680 them after one more infraction. That's such an incredible incentive 0:36:35.800 --> 0:36:41.040 to like mistreat and fire people, because if you fire someone, 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:45.400 you can just collect, like try to collect like twenty 0:36:45.440 --> 0:36:46.720 one thousand dollars from. 0:36:46.600 --> 0:36:51.280 Them, financially ruin somebody, financially destroy somebody, render them homeless. 0:36:51.360 --> 0:36:55.920 Yeah, even Yeah, it's what we call a perverse incentive. 0:36:56.400 --> 0:36:59.399 Yeah, you can just reduce someone effectively into a debt 0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:04.319 peon and usually that kind of threat is abstract. This 0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:06.520 is how we're It's a device to work and to 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:09.959 stay in line. If you lose your job, then you're 0:37:10.000 --> 0:37:12.440 going to drown in all of the things you need 0:37:12.480 --> 0:37:17.319 to do to survive. But no, here, it's just yeah, 0:37:17.360 --> 0:37:21.080 you're down twenty one dollars. 0:37:20.000 --> 0:37:23.040 In debt to this company that just fired you. Yep, 0:37:23.480 --> 0:37:28.600 and again that is due and payable immediately. That the 0:37:28.640 --> 0:37:31.799 way the contract is worded does not stipulate any sort 0:37:31.840 --> 0:37:38.160 of repayment period. Now, we have attestations from previous employees 0:37:38.200 --> 0:37:41.960 who have been fired under this contract and been released 0:37:41.960 --> 0:37:45.160 from it, so we do know that the owners of 0:37:45.239 --> 0:37:50.200 Really Electronicis will selectively choose to release terminated employees from 0:37:50.239 --> 0:37:52.839 their contract. However, they have elected not to do that 0:37:53.320 --> 0:37:56.080 in the case of this union member, this coworker who 0:37:56.160 --> 0:37:58.400 was fired last month. Correct. 0:37:58.760 --> 0:38:02.800 Yeah, so that also that also looks like retaliation your words, 0:38:03.160 --> 0:38:08.000 like sort of deliberately your words. Yeah, you know, it 0:38:08.440 --> 0:38:12.040 doesn't look good. There aren't good answers as to why 0:38:12.080 --> 0:38:15.000 you would do that in this situation and not in others. 0:38:15.560 --> 0:38:17.440 The story gets more fun too. 0:38:17.840 --> 0:38:19.960 Oh yeah, yeah, we're just getting started. 0:38:20.320 --> 0:38:23.359 Before all of this gets even more unhinged, we need 0:38:23.400 --> 0:38:27.239 to go to I don't know, maybe a source of 0:38:27.480 --> 0:38:30.680 hingedeness and security. I mean, if that's true, I hope 0:38:30.880 --> 0:38:33.840 better things happen in your lives. But we're throwing to 0:38:33.880 --> 0:38:49.440 the products and services that support this podcast. We are back. 0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:56.640 Let's continue with this story here and get to I 0:38:56.680 --> 0:39:01.040 guess the next set of fir inks because this just 0:39:01.160 --> 0:39:02.080 keeps escalating. 0:39:03.000 --> 0:39:06.040 So before we actually get to the next set of firings, 0:39:06.040 --> 0:39:12.600 we would have our first and Dejah correct me if 0:39:12.640 --> 0:39:16.200 I'm wrong, our second meeting. You are correct, Yeah, we 0:39:16.239 --> 0:39:19.760 would have our first and second meeting before the next firing. 0:39:19.880 --> 0:39:25.040 May second, and May fourteenth. Yes, so that next firing 0:39:25.120 --> 0:39:28.560 would take place on Monday, May eighteenth. 0:39:29.080 --> 0:39:32.959 That was Monday May eighteenth, Yeah, so like one week 0:39:33.000 --> 0:39:35.680 ago from when this is getting recorded. Which bear that 0:39:35.719 --> 0:39:37.719 in mind as the rest of the story plays out, 0:39:37.719 --> 0:39:42.640 because the timeline here is so condensed that like it's 0:39:42.680 --> 0:39:45.200 like all of the shit that happens with like a 0:39:45.239 --> 0:39:47.839 bad union busting campaign condensed to the span of like 0:39:47.880 --> 0:39:49.200 three days. 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:56.040 Yes, we are speed running bad boss versus union workers story, Like. 0:39:56.800 --> 0:39:58.600 This is like one of the fastest escalations I've ever 0:39:58.600 --> 0:39:59.720 seen before. 0:39:59.719 --> 0:40:01.880 We get this Monday, Let's talk about what happened at 0:40:01.880 --> 0:40:09.560 those two meetings, because this is genuinely such an impressive pace, Like, 0:40:09.760 --> 0:40:11.960 how fast all of this got organized? 0:40:12.440 --> 0:40:16.440 Yes, So the first meeting May second, we basically gathered 0:40:16.560 --> 0:40:21.759 every clinician who we believed we could trust, who was 0:40:21.800 --> 0:40:25.799 not either a manager in training or did not have 0:40:25.960 --> 0:40:29.360 direct ties to management, and also who was on site, 0:40:29.400 --> 0:40:31.279 because there were some people that we would have loved 0:40:31.280 --> 0:40:34.680 to have talked to who were off site attending a 0:40:34.680 --> 0:40:38.720 certification program at another location. So we gathered up everyone 0:40:38.760 --> 0:40:41.400 we could. That started with about eight of us and 0:40:41.520 --> 0:40:44.239 grew to ten as the night war on. We talked 0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:49.040 about the circumstances around the firing of that coworker who 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:53.439 was in school. We all talked about our options for 0:40:53.520 --> 0:40:58.120 how do we proceed. We voted unanimously to form a union, 0:40:58.480 --> 0:41:01.960 and to do so under the auspices of the Industrial 0:41:02.000 --> 0:41:05.719 Workers of the world, thanks in part to Jackie May 0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:09.120 having contact with them and having gotten a bit of 0:41:09.160 --> 0:41:12.200 a lowdown on like what our options looked like. Yeah, 0:41:12.360 --> 0:41:16.920 so that was the TLDR of the first meeting. Ten people. 0:41:16.920 --> 0:41:19.120 That's like two thirds of the shop, like of the 0:41:19.120 --> 0:41:20.440 total people yet. 0:41:21.120 --> 0:41:25.080 Yes, of the people who were active practicing clinicians there, 0:41:25.200 --> 0:41:27.439 I think we were only missing a couple. 0:41:27.680 --> 0:41:30.239 Yeap, which is really impressive. I wish we could have 0:41:30.239 --> 0:41:30.640 got them. 0:41:31.120 --> 0:41:35.960 Yeah, we definitely wish we could have gotten to everybody 0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:41.919 or had been clearer on who was actually not management. Yeah, 0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:44.560 that's also a thing that like management will play a 0:41:44.600 --> 0:41:47.759 lot of games with who isn't isn't union eligible? I 0:41:47.800 --> 0:41:49.120 just want to like stop for a second and be 0:41:49.239 --> 0:41:52.920 like getting like two thirds or more of a shop 0:41:53.040 --> 0:41:55.560 to show up to the first meeting and vote to 0:41:55.640 --> 0:41:58.680 form a union is like that might be the fastest 0:41:58.719 --> 0:42:00.960 I've ever seen this happen. It's like you did this 0:42:01.080 --> 0:42:02.160 in one meeting. 0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:08.880 Yeah, speed ran the entire organizing process like one meeting. 0:42:09.600 --> 0:42:13.879 It's like unbelievable. We put this on Gamestown quick too. Yeah, 0:42:14.000 --> 0:42:18.279 like I maybe I don't know. We could submit it 0:42:18.280 --> 0:42:21.400 for a world record with new world record category any 0:42:21.440 --> 0:42:28.480 person unanimous. As they say, nobody organizes quite as well 0:42:28.520 --> 0:42:30.240 as a bad boss. That's true. 0:42:31.520 --> 0:42:34.560 You have, yeah, you have you have the double benefit 0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:37.759 of bad boss firing people. And also like it's a 0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:42.880 bunch of queer and trance people, is like, yes, conditions 0:42:43.000 --> 0:42:44.480 for organizing. 0:42:45.160 --> 0:42:50.640 Yes, So that meeting that was May second. The next 0:42:50.680 --> 0:42:55.239 meeting took place on May fourteenth. Now, Jackie Maye, do 0:42:55.280 --> 0:42:56.920 you want to talk a little bit before we talk 0:42:56.960 --> 0:42:59.520 about this meeting about some of the things that happened 0:42:59.800 --> 0:43:05.719 in between the two meetings, like certain actions by management 0:43:05.840 --> 0:43:12.719 and people who are manager adjacent. Oh right, right, yeah, so. 0:43:14.239 --> 0:43:21.359 Our tools in laundry sterilization tech, maybe specialist, I'm not 0:43:21.520 --> 0:43:26.160 quite sure on the word for it. Salem is married 0:43:26.480 --> 0:43:32.359 to our director of operations, Zeric Lee' that's no boy. 0:43:34.200 --> 0:43:40.520 But wait, there's more. Oh no, Salem actually approached at 0:43:40.600 --> 0:43:44.160 least one of our one of our union members to 0:43:44.440 --> 0:43:48.440 ask directly if we were forming a union. 0:43:49.080 --> 0:43:51.000 Yeah, which, by the way, you're not allowed to do. 0:43:51.440 --> 0:43:56.720 You're not supposed to do that, but you know that's yeah, great, 0:43:56.880 --> 0:43:57.800 incredible stuff. 0:43:57.920 --> 0:44:02.920 It's a lovely gray area because Huz Melam isn't management. 0:44:02.560 --> 0:44:06.920 But technically isn't management. Is simply married. Did you married 0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:15.680 to management? It's technically technically illegal, but like management's really 0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:17.319 really not supposed to be doing that. 0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:22.840 Yeah, I think it also bears clarifying at this point 0:44:22.960 --> 0:44:27.399 that Xeric Lee, director of Operations and effectively the HR 0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:34.440 Department of really Electrolysis has absolutely heard Jackie May express 0:44:34.520 --> 0:44:38.359 positive union sentiment. M h, I forgot about that. This 0:44:38.440 --> 0:44:42.879 goes back to summer of twenty twenty five. Like, there 0:44:42.920 --> 0:44:47.040 have been multiple instances where people in management have directly 0:44:47.160 --> 0:44:52.080 heard Jackie May talking about being pro union. Granted, Jackie 0:44:52.120 --> 0:44:56.840 May has always been properly elliptical about it in the 0:44:56.840 --> 0:45:00.400 presence of management. Not it's hard, but yeah, but the 0:45:00.480 --> 0:45:06.120 suspicion was clearly established long ago. Yeah, that is true. 0:45:06.360 --> 0:45:10.920 That is true. This will be important. Yeah, foreshadowing is 0:45:10.960 --> 0:45:16.800 a literary technique, so to continue during these two weeks 0:45:16.840 --> 0:45:21.040 in between meetings thereabouts. Yes, we did have Salem spouse 0:45:21.120 --> 0:45:26.040 of the director of operations poking around asking questions. Oh boy. 0:45:26.840 --> 0:45:28.719 Yeah, And I will say this is also a very 0:45:28.719 --> 0:45:31.600 common management tactic of course, as part of why when 0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:34.080 you're organizing you need to do the basic power mapping 0:45:34.120 --> 0:45:36.520 of figuring out who is close to the bosses and 0:45:36.520 --> 0:45:38.600 who is close to management and what ties they have, 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:43.920 because that dramatically affects Yeah, you two absolutely both know this, 0:45:44.040 --> 0:45:47.000 but for the listeners, Yeah, it's very important to figure 0:45:47.000 --> 0:45:51.239 out who the person who's married to management and will 0:45:51.280 --> 0:45:52.080 report to them. 0:45:52.160 --> 0:45:52.440 Beans. 0:45:53.600 --> 0:45:57.520 Yes, so I treated as game theory. I have treated 0:45:57.640 --> 0:46:01.080 all of this like it has been a game. Yeah, 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:06.440 because that's how I process it. That's that's that's all 0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:07.440 I needed to say about that. 0:46:07.520 --> 0:46:12.560 Go ahead, deja. Yeah. So, to the credit of every 0:46:13.160 --> 0:46:18.440 union member, not a single person violated op SEC on 0:46:18.560 --> 0:46:24.759 this nobody confessed to any union organizing activity. Yeah, that 0:46:24.800 --> 0:46:29.080 doesn't change that they continued to be suspicious in any case. 0:46:29.440 --> 0:46:33.080 We had our second meeting on May fourteenth. At that meeting, 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:38.279 present were representatives from the IWW as well as a 0:46:38.320 --> 0:46:42.960 representative from ILWU Local five, because at that point we 0:46:42.960 --> 0:46:48.040 had not been formally endorsed by a union and we 0:46:48.239 --> 0:46:51.520 wanted to get some perspectives from whoever was available to 0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:54.319 speak to us, and those were the two shops that 0:46:54.400 --> 0:46:57.600 were available to come talk to us. At that meeting, 0:46:57.840 --> 0:47:04.399 we again voted unanimous lee to continue with organizing unionizing. 0:47:04.640 --> 0:47:08.200 We were initially going to do it under the auspices 0:47:08.480 --> 0:47:14.960 of ILWU Local five. However, their onboarding protocols are a 0:47:15.040 --> 0:47:18.840 little bit more time consuming and involved than the IWW's 0:47:19.480 --> 0:47:24.400 and the following Monday, which Jackie May will be talking 0:47:24.400 --> 0:47:27.560 about in just a second. There were some circumstances that 0:47:27.680 --> 0:47:31.520 sort of forced us to go with the union. Who 0:47:31.520 --> 0:47:35.160 could get us on board lickety split. Yeah. 0:47:35.480 --> 0:47:39.320 So that Monday, I want to say, it was a midday. 0:47:39.560 --> 0:47:41.640 I had just finished with like my I want to say, 0:47:41.640 --> 0:47:45.200 my first two people, and was I was on my 0:47:45.239 --> 0:47:47.960 way to the breakroom to grab a drink, and on 0:47:48.040 --> 0:47:53.480 my way out, I see my coworker, fellow union member, 0:47:53.600 --> 0:47:59.680 and even my housemate come out of her office flanked 0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:03.240 by real you electrolysis management. 0:48:04.239 --> 0:48:07.080 And the last. 0:48:06.840 --> 0:48:10.080 Time I saw her that day was she had tears 0:48:10.080 --> 0:48:12.799 streaming down her face and she just goes, Jackie May. 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:19.560 They fired me, and I responded immediately, I got I 0:48:19.600 --> 0:48:23.640 want to say five for six of us to gather 0:48:23.920 --> 0:48:28.600 outside of Director of Operation Zeric Lee's office and we 0:48:28.719 --> 0:48:34.000 voiced our displeasure. We voiced that our coworkers should have 0:48:34.080 --> 0:48:37.840 their jobs back. We voice that none of us feel 0:48:37.880 --> 0:48:40.680 safe because of the working conditions. None of us feel 0:48:40.719 --> 0:48:45.080 safe because of the way management goes about handing out 0:48:45.120 --> 0:48:51.680 disciplinary actions, the inconsistency with the different things that they 0:48:51.800 --> 0:48:55.520 will or will not punish. I just see his eyes 0:48:55.600 --> 0:48:59.320 peeking up over his monitor, and he's like, well, I can't. 0:48:59.600 --> 0:49:04.200 I can't discuss what's in somebody's personnel file, and also 0:49:04.480 --> 0:49:07.160 I can't hire them back. My hands are tied. You 0:49:07.200 --> 0:49:09.520 don't know all of the documentation on our side. So 0:49:09.560 --> 0:49:11.120 I go, Okay, who else do we got to talk to? 0:49:12.400 --> 0:49:16.120 And xeric Lee points us to President of Real You 0:49:16.239 --> 0:49:20.000 Electrolysis on a lantry, and we go down to her 0:49:20.080 --> 0:49:23.640 office and we say the same things, and she says, 0:49:24.400 --> 0:49:31.960 I'm not what I'm paraphrasing. I cannot make unilateral decisions. Yes, 0:49:32.280 --> 0:49:35.040 And I asked who else we would have to talk 0:49:35.080 --> 0:49:38.279 to about this, and she said that would be a 0:49:38.520 --> 0:49:42.680 co president, Lea La Favor and director of Operation Xeric Lee. 0:49:43.360 --> 0:49:48.280 I turned around and right across the hallway from Onna's 0:49:48.360 --> 0:49:54.440 office is Leah in reception. So we give them the 0:49:54.480 --> 0:49:58.839 exact same spiel of we're not happy with this, this 0:49:58.920 --> 0:49:59.880 needs to be corrected. 0:50:00.280 --> 0:50:03.239 None of us feel safe about this. And this was 0:50:03.320 --> 0:50:08.320 not simply Jackie may speaking either those of us present 0:50:08.880 --> 0:50:13.960 all voice concerns, myself included. You know, it was very 0:50:14.000 --> 0:50:17.960 clearly not the actions of a single individual, but of 0:50:18.320 --> 0:50:19.240 a concertive group. 0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:23.799 Yes, they may trust me to speak for them, but 0:50:23.920 --> 0:50:26.239 I also know when to be quiet so that they 0:50:26.280 --> 0:50:32.160 can voice their opinions. At that point, Desia had finished 0:50:32.200 --> 0:50:35.439 with all of their appointments and said, Hey, I'm done 0:50:35.440 --> 0:50:38.920 for the day. I'm going home. This isn't me giving 0:50:38.960 --> 0:50:41.560 you an official resignation. I need to go home and 0:50:41.760 --> 0:50:46.040 consider my options. And I followed suit with I'm not 0:50:46.120 --> 0:50:50.280 giving you a resignation. You have essentially created a family 0:50:50.320 --> 0:50:54.160 emergency for me, and now I have to go see 0:50:54.200 --> 0:51:00.120 to that family emergency. That is important. We will come 0:51:00.160 --> 0:51:04.480 back to that interaction, oh boy later, yes. 0:51:04.600 --> 0:51:05.440 I will say. 0:51:05.680 --> 0:51:08.120 Being one of the two presidents of the company and 0:51:08.160 --> 0:51:11.760 someone goes, don't fire our coworkers and you go, sorry, 0:51:11.840 --> 0:51:15.359 that's not like I can't make unilateral decisions is the 0:51:15.400 --> 0:51:18.560 most absolutely chicken shit response I've ever seen in my 0:51:18.800 --> 0:51:22.480 entire life. Like it's like, it's like fucking it's fucking 0:51:22.560 --> 0:51:25.080 like verdev I'm braun. Like when the rockets go up, 0:51:25.320 --> 0:51:27.600 who cares where they come down? That's not my department. 0:51:27.640 --> 0:51:35.000 It's like you are the president of the company, like I. 0:51:34.840 --> 0:51:38.280 What are we doing here? Like like I don't. 0:51:38.040 --> 0:51:43.760 Make nilateral decisions, like you are the president, Like there's 0:51:43.840 --> 0:51:45.799 like three people management. 0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:47.080 What are we doing here? 0:51:47.640 --> 0:51:49.000 I mean, I guess that's like, I mean, the thing 0:51:49.000 --> 0:51:51.279 you're doing here is everyone in secession is trying to 0:51:51.320 --> 0:51:53.720 be like, Ah, I actually can't do anything. 0:51:53.800 --> 0:51:58.280 It's like, yes, you can, you do run the business. 0:51:58.480 --> 0:52:03.640 But I would also like to note that this conversation 0:52:03.960 --> 0:52:08.000 held between the group of us with Hon Lantry and 0:52:08.080 --> 0:52:11.520 Lela Favor. Very early on in that conversation, on a 0:52:11.560 --> 0:52:16.120 Lantry said this conversation is over and walked away. However, Leah, yeah, 0:52:16.160 --> 0:52:19.520 they did continue to have a conversation with us, and 0:52:19.760 --> 0:52:24.239 was the person that we informed that we are not resigning. 0:52:25.120 --> 0:52:28.120 Anybody who leaves today is doing so because their schedule 0:52:28.160 --> 0:52:31.120 is clear, or they are having a family emergency. Both 0:52:31.120 --> 0:52:35.600 of these things are acceptable reasons for leaving your shift, 0:52:35.760 --> 0:52:38.560 and that has been established through ample precedent. 0:52:39.120 --> 0:52:40.960 Yeah. 0:52:41.160 --> 0:52:44.360 So that was Monday. That was Monday, May eighteenth. 0:52:44.640 --> 0:52:48.440 Jesus Christ, that's not even all of Monday, right, I 0:52:48.480 --> 0:52:55.160 want to point out or include that straight from the 0:52:55.280 --> 0:52:59.920 job site, I went home, I grabbed my other roommate, 0:53:00.880 --> 0:53:03.920 who is at the time wasn't a part of the union, 0:53:03.960 --> 0:53:08.839 because wasn't an employee of real EU electrolysis, but is 0:53:08.960 --> 0:53:11.640 on the real EU Electrolysis hiring list. 0:53:12.480 --> 0:53:14.240 So is it a contractor situation? 0:53:14.640 --> 0:53:18.600 Not quiet, they will work with us in the future. 0:53:18.719 --> 0:53:21.560 Oh, it just like hasn't been fully hired. 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:23.560 Yeah, that's kind of the way they do things, Like 0:53:23.600 --> 0:53:26.200 they hire people well in advance of having them actually 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:29.879 start work, Like most of us were hired like months 0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:33.480 and months and months before we started actually taking shifts. 0:53:34.000 --> 0:53:38.799 So Monday, I go home, I pick up my housemate 0:53:39.520 --> 0:53:45.360 who is incredible and has a special interest in documentation 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:52.520 and bureaucracy. She and Deja are my two documenters and 0:53:53.920 --> 0:53:57.920 shout out, shout out Tovey because we wouldn't have been 0:53:57.960 --> 0:54:01.759 able to get here without you. And we went to 0:54:02.000 --> 0:54:06.320 the IWW over in Portland and we had a meeting 0:54:06.320 --> 0:54:09.719 with them, and we just walked in there with the 0:54:10.000 --> 0:54:13.320 intention of asking for help from like their solidarity network 0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:16.920 of like, hey, we have just been put into a 0:54:17.000 --> 0:54:20.200 hardship status at this point because of what has happened. 0:54:20.760 --> 0:54:24.200 Can you help us, like with rent And I want 0:54:24.200 --> 0:54:26.600 to say that meeting was like two or three hours long. 0:54:26.719 --> 0:54:31.239 We talked about a lot of plans moving forward and 0:54:32.000 --> 0:54:36.320 instead of just having support with rent. We came away 0:54:36.360 --> 0:54:38.440 with a plan of what we would be doing next, 0:54:40.000 --> 0:54:47.000 and Tuesday came. We had all eleven people of this 0:54:47.160 --> 0:54:50.560 union meet in the parking lot and sign our petition together. 0:54:51.480 --> 0:54:55.200 We got it photo copied, we made digital copies. We 0:54:55.239 --> 0:54:58.719 made sure it was all safe. Our person got that 0:54:58.840 --> 0:55:03.560 stuff filed away for us, got us some very nice 0:55:03.719 --> 0:55:06.480 red folders to be able to keep all of these documentation, 0:55:06.680 --> 0:55:11.560 and we were given I was given a red folder 0:55:11.680 --> 0:55:17.120 labeled management and we planned to deliver this on Wednesday. 0:55:18.200 --> 0:55:23.839 Tuesday was why Tuesday was like quiet before the storm. 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:26.400 Quiet. Yeah, we were all. 0:55:26.239 --> 0:55:30.360 Braced that I was going to be fired because while 0:55:30.400 --> 0:55:36.080 I wasn't swearing or rude to management, I wasn't as 0:55:36.239 --> 0:55:40.960 even toned or level headed as I am right now. 0:55:41.719 --> 0:55:44.120 I was also bracing to be fired because I did 0:55:44.200 --> 0:55:46.719 also do a lot of that speaking, and I was 0:55:47.040 --> 0:55:51.480 extremely emotional at the time as well. Absolutely, Oh, I 0:55:51.520 --> 0:55:54.520 do think there is one little tidbit that is important 0:55:54.520 --> 0:55:56.720 to mention about the employee who was fired on Monday 0:55:56.800 --> 0:56:00.320 is not only was this person union mem bur and 0:56:00.360 --> 0:56:04.680 one of the organizers, this person also had a fully 0:56:04.960 --> 0:56:09.040 like workplace sanctioned and endorsed romantic relationship with the first 0:56:09.120 --> 0:56:12.640 person who was fired. Oh so, like again, this is 0:56:12.719 --> 0:56:15.759 this is not like they were illicitly dating. It's like 0:56:16.000 --> 0:56:18.480 management had a protocol, had forms and all that for 0:56:18.520 --> 0:56:21.799 when coworkers are dating. It's in the employee handbook that 0:56:21.840 --> 0:56:25.960 they're okay with that. Yes, and so it looks. 0:56:25.960 --> 0:56:30.479 So they're like moving through the Yeah, huh, that's that's 0:56:30.600 --> 0:56:37.200 that's interesting. That's oh boy, I oh, yes, there's a 0:56:37.239 --> 0:56:41.680 thing this an FAA guy said about. There's there's a 0:56:41.680 --> 0:56:43.759 story of that guy who was like flying around in 0:56:43.800 --> 0:56:46.480 a lawn chair with like balloons attached to it. 0:56:46.600 --> 0:56:48.520 Oh my god, I know that story. 0:56:48.840 --> 0:56:51.280 Yeah, and then the thing about that, the news calls 0:56:51.280 --> 0:56:55.520 the FAA guy, and the FAA guy goes, we don't 0:56:55.560 --> 0:56:58.440 know what section of the Federal Aviation Cody's violated, but 0:56:58.480 --> 0:57:00.759 when we figure it out, we'll prosecute with it. And like, 0:57:01.360 --> 0:57:04.479 that has to be some kind of violation of like 0:57:04.480 --> 0:57:09.040 like specifically targeting people in a relationship, Like there's there's 0:57:09.080 --> 0:57:15.360 got to be something there, but I don't know. And admittedly, 0:57:15.400 --> 0:57:18.040 American workplace law is a complete nightmare. But that is 0:57:18.960 --> 0:57:22.440 extremely sketchy and shitty, And yes. 0:57:22.720 --> 0:57:24.080 We're going to get it sorted out. 0:57:26.200 --> 0:57:31.800 Yeah, oh yes, yeah, I just oh boy, Jesus Christ, 0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:35.560 that that feels not good and good lord. 0:57:35.760 --> 0:57:37.840 Okay, so Jackie may please continue. 0:57:38.480 --> 0:57:41.600 I slept real good Tuesday night into Wednesday morning. Let 0:57:41.640 --> 0:57:45.520 me just say that I slept real good Wednesday morning. 0:57:45.560 --> 0:57:50.520 We coordinated and we went. We went a little early. Admittedly, 0:57:50.720 --> 0:57:53.160 I got a little that there was a little bit 0:57:53.160 --> 0:57:55.600 of adrenaline and I kind of jumped the gun, just 0:57:55.920 --> 0:57:58.280 just a hair. We were supposed to wait until eleven 0:57:58.360 --> 0:58:00.480 fifty five to deliver our sign petition. 0:58:00.880 --> 0:58:01.560 It's okay. 0:58:02.280 --> 0:58:06.800 Yeah, we all had new appointments and we are all 0:58:07.040 --> 0:58:13.800 so committed to our patients that none of this process 0:58:14.440 --> 0:58:20.040 like interrupted patience in treatment. All of this had been 0:58:20.080 --> 0:58:23.960 coordinated around our schedules so that people got to continue 0:58:24.000 --> 0:58:24.720 getting treatment. 0:58:25.120 --> 0:58:27.760 That is correct. There's never been a point where a 0:58:27.800 --> 0:58:31.200 patience treatment session has been interrupted or a patient has 0:58:31.240 --> 0:58:35.720 been abandoned. I'm saying this because there are some accusations 0:58:35.720 --> 0:58:37.920 from management to that effect, and I would like it 0:58:38.000 --> 0:58:41.680 on public record that that is absolutely false and that 0:58:41.720 --> 0:58:46.760 we can all attest to this foreshadowing more foreshadowing. Yes, boy, sorry, 0:58:47.040 --> 0:58:47.680 oh boy. 0:58:48.480 --> 0:58:52.640 So Wednesday morning I have the privilege, I have the 0:58:52.680 --> 0:58:58.640 backing of the crew to go serve this paperwork. We 0:58:58.880 --> 0:59:02.600 had somebody from the union kind of send out send 0:59:02.600 --> 0:59:06.600 out a feeler text to find out when the president 0:59:06.640 --> 0:59:09.440 and co president would be in the building. It wouldn't 0:59:09.440 --> 0:59:12.920 be until after twelve thirty. We serve that paperwork to 0:59:13.040 --> 0:59:18.120 Director of Operation Xeric Lee. He took that at eleven 0:59:18.240 --> 0:59:23.440 forty eight. He doesn't really give us a response. Besides, 0:59:23.480 --> 0:59:25.720 there's a lot here. I'm going to have to read 0:59:25.760 --> 0:59:28.960 it all thoroughly and get back to you. But we 0:59:29.040 --> 0:59:32.840 go about our days. I have to leave site after 0:59:32.920 --> 0:59:36.640 two of my appointments because I left my phone at 0:59:36.640 --> 0:59:38.800 a gas station, so I had to leave and come back. 0:59:39.240 --> 0:59:43.080 It's okay, we got it. It's all good. Yay. Two 0:59:42.960 --> 0:59:43.840 point fifty. 0:59:43.560 --> 0:59:47.680 One, I'm back on site. I am in my own office. 0:59:48.400 --> 0:59:53.280 I have co President Lee la Favor and one other 0:59:53.400 --> 0:59:57.720 member of management president, and they are firing me. They 0:59:57.760 --> 1:00:01.800 are handing me three right up. Is christ now The 1:00:02.080 --> 1:00:04.920 earliest of those write ups, or I should say I 1:00:04.920 --> 1:00:08.720 guess the oldest of those write ups are from May fourth, 1:00:09.360 --> 1:00:12.960 twenty twenty six, and it essentially is a write up 1:00:13.080 --> 1:00:17.760 that says Jackie, you were rude to management. Now let's 1:00:17.760 --> 1:00:22.600 talk about why. Let's talk about why that write up happened. 1:00:23.040 --> 1:00:25.960 You see, by that point in time, we were on 1:00:26.040 --> 1:00:30.680 the third pay period where we were all being given 1:00:30.960 --> 1:00:32.000 paper checks. 1:00:32.400 --> 1:00:36.360 After years, yeah, years of direct deposit, like long history 1:00:36.360 --> 1:00:38.880 of direct deposit only switched to paper checks. 1:00:39.120 --> 1:00:43.760 We were given paper checks. Those checks had been bouncing. 1:00:45.520 --> 1:00:54.160 The paychecks are bouncing. Yes, yeah, yes, yeah, that's not 1:00:54.240 --> 1:00:55.360 just Jackie May's either. 1:00:55.880 --> 1:01:00.080 Yes, Jesus Christ, that is true. That, like I'm what 1:01:00.080 --> 1:01:03.040 I will say is on average, per pay period, like 1:01:03.080 --> 1:01:05.280 a handful of us had their checks bounce. 1:01:05.960 --> 1:01:09.880 That will come into play later. That's foreshadowing. Oh boy. 1:01:10.600 --> 1:01:15.439 Yeah, so my check bounced once my bank account went okay, 1:01:15.520 --> 1:01:18.520 that's kind of sus my check bounced a second time. 1:01:19.360 --> 1:01:22.400 I currently don't have access to a bank account because 1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:25.400 my bank has labeled what has happened fraudulent activity, and 1:01:25.560 --> 1:01:30.640 my bank is investigating not me, because they've now figured 1:01:30.640 --> 1:01:32.640 out that it's not me that's doing it. I can 1:01:32.680 --> 1:01:33.600 prove the checks are. 1:01:33.480 --> 1:01:39.720 Bouncing, Jesus Christ. But yeah, but they still locked your 1:01:39.760 --> 1:01:45.840 bank account. Yeah, because the other people's checks bounts. Jesus Christ. 1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:49.160 Yeah, so we should. We should note here that we 1:01:49.240 --> 1:01:52.280 all were aware that Jackie May was locked out of 1:01:52.400 --> 1:01:57.240 fair bank account and experiencing financial hardship to the point 1:01:57.320 --> 1:02:01.480 where we actually did have some of our union members 1:02:01.560 --> 1:02:05.280 like donating food to Jackie May. 1:02:06.400 --> 1:02:09.800 Solidarity Network came through for me because that kept us fed. 1:02:09.960 --> 1:02:12.640 That kept us like we were able to have gas 1:02:13.320 --> 1:02:15.520 for that for the next like to get us to 1:02:15.560 --> 1:02:18.720 the next payday. Essentially, this this whole. 1:02:18.480 --> 1:02:22.960 Thing would set me back like a full pay period, 1:02:23.440 --> 1:02:27.200 Like I wouldn't get the last check cashed until we 1:02:27.240 --> 1:02:29.840 got to the next pay period on Friday, because we 1:02:29.840 --> 1:02:31.160 get paid every two weeks. 1:02:32.000 --> 1:02:35.600 Yeah, and this is something we've talked about on this 1:02:35.840 --> 1:02:39.520 show a lot, is that, like you know what I mean. 1:02:39.560 --> 1:02:42.000 I think most people listening to this show understand this 1:02:42.080 --> 1:02:45.680 on an intuitive level. But it's like if your paycheck 1:02:45.800 --> 1:02:51.760 fucking bounces, that's really fucking bad, Like yeah, holy shit, 1:02:51.840 --> 1:02:53.720 And it's like, yeah, like obviously that's going to cause 1:02:53.760 --> 1:03:00.200 like unbelievable like financial distress and it fucking sucks. I'm 1:03:00.240 --> 1:03:02.360 really sorry you've been having a deal with that on 1:03:02.480 --> 1:03:06.560 top of fucking everything else, because that's just, yeah, that 1:03:06.560 --> 1:03:09.200 that's something that can just like completely fuck your entire life. 1:03:09.800 --> 1:03:13.400 That's through no fault of your own. Yeah, it's literally 1:03:13.480 --> 1:03:14.880 your boss is fucking up. 1:03:16.080 --> 1:03:17.680 Yep. God. 1:03:17.960 --> 1:03:19.800 I want to note that still to this day, I 1:03:19.920 --> 1:03:22.000 do not have access to my bank account as far 1:03:22.040 --> 1:03:25.680 as I know, Jesus Christ, the last week has been 1:03:25.680 --> 1:03:28.040 really crazy and like I haven't been able to get 1:03:28.040 --> 1:03:31.560 out to like or anything to get something new set up. 1:03:32.360 --> 1:03:35.200 So that's just in the in the background, Like you're 1:03:35.240 --> 1:03:37.440 not even getting paid because the checks are boundary. 1:03:37.560 --> 1:03:40.920 Yes, And Jackie May was understandably distressed over this and 1:03:41.040 --> 1:03:44.160 expressed that frustration, and that was the cause of a 1:03:44.400 --> 1:03:49.840 write up that was used to justify termination. Right is 1:03:49.880 --> 1:03:53.120 that do I have that? Right, Jackie May? That is correct? 1:03:53.200 --> 1:03:56.640 That is the first light up, Christ, that right up 1:03:57.160 --> 1:04:01.560 from May fourth, righte up is the May fourth. 1:04:02.160 --> 1:04:04.520 I have heard of a lot of bullshit right ups 1:04:04.520 --> 1:04:07.600 in my time doing this job. Right up for being 1:04:07.680 --> 1:04:10.600 rude to management because you were talking to them about 1:04:10.600 --> 1:04:12.640 the fact that your paycheck bounced. 1:04:12.960 --> 1:04:16.120 That is the worst right up I have ever heard that. 1:04:16.240 --> 1:04:19.000 It's like that, I like even even including. 1:04:18.600 --> 1:04:20.960 Ones were like because obviously like people will just like 1:04:21.040 --> 1:04:22.840 make up shit to do a write up for but 1:04:22.960 --> 1:04:26.040 like that's like a special level of like, oh no, 1:04:26.400 --> 1:04:30.360 this did kind of happen, but it's because they fucked up. 1:04:30.440 --> 1:04:38.160 And bounced your paycheck. Jesus Christ. So, Jackie May, I 1:04:38.240 --> 1:04:43.440 believe you were recounting the write ups that Lela presented 1:04:43.480 --> 1:04:46.400 to you wrote that I'm I'm just losing my mind. 1:04:46.600 --> 1:04:47.760 That's so awful. 1:04:50.040 --> 1:04:52.680 So the second one is because they did a room inspection. 1:04:52.880 --> 1:04:53.640 It's really weird. 1:04:53.680 --> 1:04:57.080 They like doing room inspections when they want to remove somebody. Yeah, 1:04:57.120 --> 1:04:59.320 so there was a room inspection and they were like, 1:04:59.360 --> 1:05:03.000 your room's not okay, that's your statement. 1:05:04.040 --> 1:05:05.000 The third write up. 1:05:05.960 --> 1:05:09.160 Do you remember when I had a family emergency that 1:05:09.240 --> 1:05:13.880 they caused and I left sight because they caused a 1:05:13.960 --> 1:05:15.200 family emergency. 1:05:15.760 --> 1:05:17.800 Yeah. 1:05:17.840 --> 1:05:21.760 My third and final write up was because I left 1:05:22.160 --> 1:05:25.720 early and they tried to say, well, Jackie, you didn't 1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:29.160 ask for our permission. Excuse me, Jackie May, you didn't 1:05:29.240 --> 1:05:32.800 ask for our permission to leave for the day. You 1:05:33.000 --> 1:05:37.400 just told me it was happening. And that was my 1:05:37.520 --> 1:05:38.200 full write up. 1:05:38.640 --> 1:05:41.800 I would like to add to this that I myself 1:05:42.600 --> 1:05:46.920 have multiple documented instances of having to leave work because 1:05:47.000 --> 1:05:51.320 of a health or mental health emergent situation. And there 1:05:51.400 --> 1:05:55.000 has never been a situation where I said, may I leave? 1:05:55.640 --> 1:05:59.240 It has always been I need to leave. And I 1:05:59.280 --> 1:06:03.800 have note noted and observed this with other employees as well. 1:06:03.880 --> 1:06:07.240 None of these incidents has ever culminated any write up 1:06:07.360 --> 1:06:09.920 or any sort of disciplinary action, So this is clearly 1:06:10.560 --> 1:06:15.000 inconsistent with ample precedent for the application of disciplinary standards. 1:06:15.320 --> 1:06:19.320 Yeah, they're just just trying to find reasons to get 1:06:19.400 --> 1:06:22.000 three write offs, which is also like just a sign 1:06:22.240 --> 1:06:27.960 of how well y'all are like doing your jobs that like, 1:06:28.360 --> 1:06:33.200 because like normally employers have like random code infractions that 1:06:33.240 --> 1:06:35.960 are always just sort of laying around that they can 1:06:36.040 --> 1:06:37.360 pick up and be like hey, but it's like they 1:06:37.400 --> 1:06:40.720 couldn't even like find anything. They had to just like 1:06:41.760 --> 1:06:46.680 basically fabricate complete just like absolute nonsense. 1:06:47.680 --> 1:06:52.000 Yes, like Jesus Christ, am I recalling correctly, Jackie May 1:06:52.080 --> 1:06:57.800 that these are the first instances of any documented disciplineplinary 1:06:57.800 --> 1:07:02.040 action against you in your tenure at really electrolis. Yeah, 1:07:02.080 --> 1:07:02.840 I'm a good girl. 1:07:02.880 --> 1:07:06.760 I follow the rules and I do so very very well. 1:07:07.200 --> 1:07:10.400 So and then suddenly it's like, oh, here's here's three 1:07:10.720 --> 1:07:11.200 ride ups. 1:07:11.920 --> 1:07:16.600 Like again, like the the post. 1:07:16.360 --> 1:07:22.400 Facto right up for the Hi, I am upset that 1:07:22.440 --> 1:07:25.960 my paycheck bounce converce Jesus. 1:07:26.160 --> 1:07:29.600 Yeah. And so I will note that even that very 1:07:29.600 --> 1:07:32.960 first right up did take place after we were engaged 1:07:33.000 --> 1:07:38.640 in organizing activity, after management had demonstrated suspicion. Yeah, and 1:07:39.240 --> 1:07:42.120 all of these right ups were delivered within a few 1:07:42.120 --> 1:07:47.040 hours of the delivery of our petition for voluntary recognition, uh. 1:07:47.000 --> 1:07:51.800 Huh, which I will say looks not even just suspiciously 1:07:51.920 --> 1:07:55.160 like it looks like they have just like a giant 1:07:55.200 --> 1:07:59.960 polar bear sitting there, and the polar bear is union retaliation, 1:08:00.320 --> 1:08:02.800 and they've like painted a little clown face on it 1:08:02.840 --> 1:08:05.440 and gone, this is a clown nut retaliation for forming 1:08:05.480 --> 1:08:08.000 a union. Like no, that that is a polar bear, 1:08:08.040 --> 1:08:22.720 Like what are we doing here? Oh god, So what 1:08:22.840 --> 1:08:24.000 happened next, Jackie may. 1:08:24.840 --> 1:08:27.760 Oh gosh, what happened next? Well? 1:08:28.360 --> 1:08:30.120 Uh, you know, I had to clean out my office, 1:08:30.160 --> 1:08:32.040 so I grabbed the stuff that was important to me. 1:08:32.320 --> 1:08:37.160 I took my time. I wasn't angry. I didn't I 1:08:37.200 --> 1:08:39.560 really didn't speak throughout much of it, because at that 1:08:39.680 --> 1:08:43.000 point the best thing I could do is just take 1:08:43.040 --> 1:08:48.080 my recording not say anything. And as soon as I 1:08:48.240 --> 1:08:54.160 was out of the office, I sent a message to 1:08:54.600 --> 1:08:58.400 the union members that said, hey, I was just fired. 1:08:58.439 --> 1:09:00.880 They walked me out of the building. If we're going 1:09:00.960 --> 1:09:03.040 to do something about this, we need to do something 1:09:03.080 --> 1:09:03.840 about this now. 1:09:04.720 --> 1:09:06.280 And that was it. Two fifty one. 1:09:07.200 --> 1:09:15.519 By four oh one pm Wednesday afternoon, we had the 1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:19.920 rest of the union organize a organized in stage a 1:09:20.040 --> 1:09:21.280 walkout in solidarity. 1:09:21.720 --> 1:09:25.439 That's really quick. I'm gonna let Deja take over because 1:09:25.479 --> 1:09:30.160 I was outside. Yeah. So at the point that we 1:09:30.280 --> 1:09:33.680 found out Jackie May had been terminated, we called an 1:09:33.680 --> 1:09:38.320 emergency vote in our secure messaging platform that we used 1:09:38.360 --> 1:09:42.920 to coordinate things, and we voted in favor of doing 1:09:42.960 --> 1:09:48.880 a walkout once we had each finished with our obligations 1:09:48.920 --> 1:09:52.679 to patients. In fact, I actually had an appointment scheduled 1:09:52.720 --> 1:09:55.760 from three fifteen to three forty five that at that 1:09:55.920 --> 1:09:58.920 point I elected to continue that appointment, and I did so. 1:09:59.000 --> 1:10:03.280 I provided treatment as usual, cleanup as usual, chart noting 1:10:03.320 --> 1:10:06.680 as usual. Not a single person who engaged in this 1:10:06.800 --> 1:10:11.680 walkout did so without completing their scheduled treatment in that 1:10:11.800 --> 1:10:17.120 time slot. Once that appointment was finished and everything was 1:10:17.240 --> 1:10:20.759 in compliance within my room and the rooms of those 1:10:20.800 --> 1:10:24.040 who were not stuck in appointments, because we did have 1:10:24.080 --> 1:10:27.240 a couple of union members who were in longer appointments 1:10:27.920 --> 1:10:31.400 who were not able to join the walkout. Immediately, those 1:10:31.439 --> 1:10:35.200 of us who were free did walk out, And when 1:10:35.280 --> 1:10:38.679 we did this, we spoke directly to Lea La Favor, 1:10:38.720 --> 1:10:41.120 who was sitting at the reception desk, and said that 1:10:41.200 --> 1:10:44.880 we are staging a formal walkout in protest of the 1:10:44.920 --> 1:10:50.720 wrongful termination of Jackie May, and this is not a resignation, 1:10:50.920 --> 1:10:54.400 this is a legally protected action under the National Labor 1:10:54.439 --> 1:10:58.760 Relations Act. Leah then said that anyone who walked out 1:10:58.760 --> 1:11:02.479 that door must immediately surrender their keys and was no 1:11:02.520 --> 1:11:05.040 longer welcome on the premises. 1:11:05.000 --> 1:11:17.320 Now, Jesus Christ in terms of like open retaliation for 1:11:17.520 --> 1:11:19.600 union activity, like, oh boy. 1:11:19.520 --> 1:11:24.200 Yeah, we were, oh honestly, Mia, We were so gobsmacked 1:11:24.479 --> 1:11:29.519 at the just absurdity that she would take such a 1:11:29.720 --> 1:11:33.439 blatant action of retaliation that our response was, are you 1:11:33.600 --> 1:11:38.360 sure you want to do that? And the answer was yes. 1:11:39.880 --> 1:11:45.680 So initially we did not return our keys because we 1:11:45.720 --> 1:11:48.200 wanted to confer with somebody from the IWW. So we 1:11:48.200 --> 1:11:52.439 spoke with an IWW representative who advised us that their 1:11:52.479 --> 1:11:54.880 demand for the return of the keys was a lawful 1:11:54.880 --> 1:11:57.519 demand for the return of company property, and that we 1:11:57.560 --> 1:12:01.120 should comply with that. So we did. We gathered up 1:12:01.120 --> 1:12:04.680 our keys, we sent a representative back in to return them, 1:12:05.040 --> 1:12:09.080 and at that point we were officially on strike. We 1:12:09.280 --> 1:12:12.759 reunited with Jackie May in the parking lot. We started 1:12:12.800 --> 1:12:15.560 strategizing about how we were going to do this. IWW 1:12:16.120 --> 1:12:20.439 sent some folks our way to provide support. I took 1:12:20.479 --> 1:12:22.320 off to pick up some art supplies so that we 1:12:22.320 --> 1:12:25.679 could make signs, and just general like things like water 1:12:25.800 --> 1:12:30.599 and snacks. Our other union members who were currently inside 1:12:30.640 --> 1:12:35.840 treating patients, finished their appointments as scheduled and emerged when 1:12:35.840 --> 1:12:40.120 they were no longer responsible for any patient care also 1:12:40.200 --> 1:12:43.280 turned in their keys. At that point, we did have 1:12:43.320 --> 1:12:47.360 an IWW representative on scene who accompanied those employees back 1:12:47.360 --> 1:12:51.559 inside to return the keys and to confirm to Lela 1:12:51.640 --> 1:12:55.200 Favor directly that this is not a resignation, It cannot 1:12:55.200 --> 1:12:57.960 be construed as a resignation, that this is a protected 1:12:58.120 --> 1:13:02.640 organizing action, and that all we were doing was complying 1:13:02.720 --> 1:13:05.360 with a lawful demand for the return of company property. 1:13:05.840 --> 1:13:09.639 We have plenty of witnesses to this, regardless of any 1:13:09.680 --> 1:13:13.040 statement that they may choose to make do the contrary, 1:13:13.280 --> 1:13:14.840 which also I just want to know. 1:13:14.880 --> 1:13:18.800 This is the first time I've ever gotten timestamps lockouts 1:13:18.840 --> 1:13:21.280 of the best document in one of peace I've ever seen. 1:13:23.200 --> 1:13:26.880 Y'all are very organized. Oh yeah, Oh my god, No, no, 1:13:26.920 --> 1:13:31.519 we're not. We're not playing around. Yeah. So at that point, Jackie, 1:13:31.600 --> 1:13:33.120 may I think you can take it from here? 1:13:34.040 --> 1:13:37.280 Yeah, so real quick, I got to go back. We 1:13:37.360 --> 1:13:41.920 got I forgot a very important detail about Monday after 1:13:42.439 --> 1:13:47.760 after my coworker, union member and housemate was fired. In 1:13:47.840 --> 1:13:51.960 talking to Zeric Lee, I looked him in the eyes 1:13:52.200 --> 1:13:55.080 and I told him, don't do this. I said, please 1:13:55.120 --> 1:13:57.760 don't do this. Please don't call my bluff on this. 1:13:58.439 --> 1:14:01.719 Please don't make me do this. And we're here now. 1:14:02.920 --> 1:14:06.519 I jumping back to Wednesday, I had to go off site. 1:14:07.040 --> 1:14:12.360 I was meeting with some IWW members who were We 1:14:12.360 --> 1:14:16.920 were mainly discussing what we were going to do next 1:14:17.160 --> 1:14:21.600 in or what options we had in response to a 1:14:21.680 --> 1:14:25.920 mass firing. We spent a couple hours at that. I 1:14:25.960 --> 1:14:29.040 came away understanding a whole bunch more as to what 1:14:29.040 --> 1:14:34.280 we're doing. I returned to the shop, and I think 1:14:34.760 --> 1:14:39.800 I don't remember it very well because I was all 1:14:39.840 --> 1:14:42.679 emotion and adrenaline at that point in time. 1:14:43.960 --> 1:14:47.599 What I will say is that when on. 1:14:47.479 --> 1:14:50.679 A Lantry and Leola Favor were getting in their cars 1:14:50.760 --> 1:14:54.640 to leave site, I made sure that they heard me, 1:14:55.320 --> 1:14:58.599 that the block heard me, that a good chunk of 1:14:58.640 --> 1:15:00.960 downtown Washington could hear. 1:15:02.800 --> 1:15:04.799 My anger and my passion. 1:15:05.120 --> 1:15:06.840 If I don't know if you can tell in my 1:15:06.960 --> 1:15:10.040 voice right now, but I kind of went a little 1:15:10.040 --> 1:15:10.840 too hard. 1:15:10.600 --> 1:15:14.880 On it, and it's why I sound like I do now. Well, 1:15:14.960 --> 1:15:17.920 that's scratchy. It happens. I'm honestly surprised I can speak 1:15:17.960 --> 1:15:22.599 as well because there's been lots of chanting and singing 1:15:22.760 --> 1:15:25.960 and yelling. And yeah, because we have been on the 1:15:26.000 --> 1:15:28.720 picket line pretty much since then, every single day that 1:15:28.760 --> 1:15:30.879 the business is open. That is correct. 1:15:31.400 --> 1:15:33.519 Yeah, which I want to roll back for a second 1:15:33.520 --> 1:15:36.439 and just point out that like going from yeah, we 1:15:36.479 --> 1:15:40.320 all signed our union petitions and then we delivered it 1:15:40.360 --> 1:15:42.720 the next day, and then that same day everyone is 1:15:42.760 --> 1:15:45.240 on strike is astonishing. 1:15:46.120 --> 1:15:46.720 The pace of. 1:15:46.680 --> 1:15:50.200 It is absolutely incredible. And then also just it says 1:15:50.240 --> 1:15:54.160 a lot about the solidarity that you all have and 1:15:55.160 --> 1:15:59.200 all of your like you all's character that a yeah, 1:15:59.240 --> 1:16:01.960 there's just everyone does a walkout, goes on strike and 1:16:02.000 --> 1:16:06.800 then be Also, I think it speaks to like who 1:16:06.880 --> 1:16:09.920 you're fighting for here, both each other and also the 1:16:09.960 --> 1:16:14.760 fact that like all of you were so careful to 1:16:14.800 --> 1:16:19.120 make sure that your patients got their care is. Yeah, 1:16:19.200 --> 1:16:22.559 it is something that I think speaks It says a 1:16:22.560 --> 1:16:25.120 lot about the kind of people all of you are, 1:16:25.160 --> 1:16:26.639 and it says a lot about the kind of people 1:16:26.680 --> 1:16:30.439 that management is, that this is what they're doing to 1:16:30.960 --> 1:16:36.360 people who who both fight for each other and also 1:16:36.520 --> 1:16:41.599 care deeply about the patients and the people that they're 1:16:41.600 --> 1:16:42.280 taking care of. 1:16:43.160 --> 1:16:48.160 Yeah, yeah, I really do. I know Jackie May and 1:16:48.240 --> 1:16:50.200 I are the ones who are kind of operating as 1:16:50.240 --> 1:16:55.040 the mouthpiece, but I absolutely need to express the deepest, 1:16:55.800 --> 1:16:58.839 most sincere appreciation for all of the other union members 1:16:59.080 --> 1:17:02.679 because you know, not everybody involved in this has been 1:17:02.880 --> 1:17:06.960 as just like gung ho angry, like screw up, let's 1:17:07.040 --> 1:17:09.679 do this like this has been really difficult and nerve 1:17:09.800 --> 1:17:11.400 racking for a lot of them, but you know what, 1:17:12.000 --> 1:17:16.280 they have followed through and persevered, and not a single 1:17:16.320 --> 1:17:21.600 person who started this with us has switched sides or 1:17:21.760 --> 1:17:26.040 dropped out. Everybody has been so brave and so committed 1:17:26.120 --> 1:17:30.439 and showing up so fiercely, And yeah, we are also 1:17:31.520 --> 1:17:35.880 like our patients are still the most important thing. Like, yes, 1:17:35.920 --> 1:17:39.040 we've been picketing, but we have not been turning anybody 1:17:39.200 --> 1:17:42.360 away from crossing the picket line. We every patient that 1:17:42.479 --> 1:17:44.920 shows up to be treated by one of the very 1:17:44.920 --> 1:17:48.439 few people who are still on site providing care at 1:17:48.479 --> 1:17:52.920 really Lutchles's crosses the line with our complete blessing. And 1:17:53.000 --> 1:17:57.920 we are absolutely vocal and unequivocal about that that we 1:17:58.080 --> 1:18:01.200 are not trying to deny anybody care and in fact, 1:18:01.800 --> 1:18:06.120 like we are reaching out to other electrology providers out 1:18:06.160 --> 1:18:09.479 there to you know, try to offer some options to 1:18:09.560 --> 1:18:12.439 our patients who have chosen to forego their care out 1:18:12.479 --> 1:18:16.000 of solidarity. You know, we really we want to get 1:18:16.040 --> 1:18:19.080 back to work and go back to giving care or 1:18:19.160 --> 1:18:25.800 to our people, but management has made that impossible. Yeah. 1:18:26.000 --> 1:18:28.639 I think one of the things that comes through really 1:18:28.680 --> 1:18:33.960 clearly here is like, yeah, how willing management is to 1:18:34.000 --> 1:18:37.599 just hurt people, and how dedicated all of you are 1:18:37.680 --> 1:18:41.200 to making sure that people you're caring. 1:18:40.920 --> 1:18:42.920 For get their care. And also. 1:18:44.080 --> 1:18:47.080 The just astonishing amount of bravery that it takes to 1:18:47.200 --> 1:18:51.320 not only go on strike and continue to be on strike, 1:18:52.080 --> 1:18:54.880 but also to do that in a situation where getting 1:18:54.960 --> 1:18:58.320 fired potentially means that you have to fight off paying 1:18:58.360 --> 1:19:01.280 the company that was employing you. Striking against twenty one 1:19:01.320 --> 1:19:06.080 thousand dollars. That is some of the worst conditions imaginable, 1:19:06.960 --> 1:19:10.720 and all of you did it anyways, and it's one 1:19:10.720 --> 1:19:12.479 of the most incredible things I've ever seen. 1:19:12.960 --> 1:19:19.200 Thank you. It's almost pride. It's twenty twenty six. We're 1:19:19.680 --> 1:19:20.920 making history here. 1:19:21.040 --> 1:19:25.720 This union is for trans people, buy, trans people to 1:19:25.840 --> 1:19:30.320 provide care, to buy and large other trends and queer people. 1:19:31.200 --> 1:19:34.680 And weirdly, I have to say thank you to our 1:19:34.720 --> 1:19:38.120 two bosses because if they hadn't have made the decisions 1:19:38.439 --> 1:19:40.960 that they made, things could have been so different. It 1:19:41.000 --> 1:19:43.720 didn't have to be this way, is what I have 1:19:43.760 --> 1:19:45.439 to say. It didn't have to be this way. But 1:19:45.680 --> 1:19:49.000 they chose this. They chose this, and we have chosen 1:19:49.040 --> 1:19:53.280 it every time, every opportunity to choose each other and 1:19:53.320 --> 1:19:56.240 to choose our community and go no, you're not going 1:19:56.320 --> 1:19:59.240 to bully one of us. We're not allowing us anymore. 1:19:59.680 --> 1:20:00.960 We are sticking together. 1:20:02.040 --> 1:20:05.160 Yeah, and it's it's been really incredible seeing the way 1:20:05.200 --> 1:20:08.600 that all of you have have taken this opportunity and 1:20:08.640 --> 1:20:10.920 taken all of these risks to fight for each other. 1:20:11.920 --> 1:20:14.360 There's a quote that I heard about you from managements 1:20:14.360 --> 1:20:16.920 about why they hired a bunch of trans people that 1:20:17.439 --> 1:20:19.120 I was wondering if you could tell the audience what 1:20:19.320 --> 1:20:22.160 that quote is, because Jesus Christ. 1:20:22.320 --> 1:20:26.120 It's a supermajority of transition, which is super rarely almost 1:20:26.439 --> 1:20:28.440 almost the entire workforce. 1:20:28.520 --> 1:20:29.040 Yeah. 1:20:29.360 --> 1:20:36.120 Yes, so this quote comes from president on a lantry 1:20:37.280 --> 1:20:43.439 from the fourth of July company barbecue held at their 1:20:43.560 --> 1:20:49.920 house in twenty twenty five. Oh no, with this shit, 1:20:50.000 --> 1:20:55.160 eat grin. She says, Yeah, if you pay a trans 1:20:55.240 --> 1:20:58.960 woman thirty dollars an hour and you give her health 1:20:58.960 --> 1:21:03.320 insurance in a little bit of respect, she will march 1:21:03.400 --> 1:21:04.840 through a brick wall for you. 1:21:05.680 --> 1:21:07.599 Jesus Christ. 1:21:08.120 --> 1:21:10.280 Like, there's two immediate obvious angles. 1:21:10.560 --> 1:21:13.320 One it's like, oh, so you like knew what you like, 1:21:13.400 --> 1:21:15.160 you knew what you were doing here, right, You were 1:21:15.160 --> 1:21:18.439 deliberately hiring You were deliberately hiring trans people because you thought, 1:21:18.479 --> 1:21:20.200 because you thought they were they would be easier to 1:21:20.240 --> 1:21:23.360 exploit and that's hideous. 1:21:23.760 --> 1:21:25.600 Those are your words. Yeah, I like that. 1:21:25.720 --> 1:21:29.080 That's that's yeah, this is this is my analysis of 1:21:29.120 --> 1:21:33.599 this is like, that's Jesus Christ. And then b also, 1:21:34.000 --> 1:21:37.240 this is this is really some like your chickens are 1:21:37.240 --> 1:21:40.519 coming home to roost. Like you you you have sown 1:21:40.600 --> 1:21:43.360 the wind and you are now reaping the whirlwind. Because 1:21:43.760 --> 1:21:47.280 it is true that trans people get treated like absolute shit, 1:21:47.400 --> 1:21:50.240 and it's very nice to get a job where you're 1:21:50.280 --> 1:21:51.439 not being treated like shit. 1:21:52.200 --> 1:21:55.160 But it's also true that if you decide. 1:21:54.880 --> 1:21:58.160 To fuck over a bunch of trans women, like, we 1:21:58.200 --> 1:22:01.479 will fight for each other, and trans people and preeople 1:22:01.520 --> 1:22:04.000 will fight for each other. And I think that's one 1:22:04.040 --> 1:22:06.599 of the sort of beautiful things about you know, as 1:22:06.680 --> 1:22:09.519 much as all of this absolutely fucking sucks, but like 1:22:09.560 --> 1:22:11.320 the fact that you were able to pull this many 1:22:11.360 --> 1:22:13.880 people off the line immediately and get a strike going, 1:22:13.920 --> 1:22:16.000 you know, that has like almost all of the clinicians 1:22:16.000 --> 1:22:20.560 are on strike. It's this real refutation of what management 1:22:20.960 --> 1:22:26.280 believed about trans people, which is like, no, actually, you 1:22:26.360 --> 1:22:28.720 can't just fucking sit there and exploit us, because we 1:22:28.720 --> 1:22:29.800 will organize and fight. 1:22:30.360 --> 1:22:33.519 Yeah, we'll fight for each other. We will, And I 1:22:33.600 --> 1:22:37.160 did want to stress to like the diversity of our workforce, 1:22:37.280 --> 1:22:40.200 like we are not all trans women. We become like 1:22:40.240 --> 1:22:44.120 a variety of backgrounds, a variety of ages, you know, 1:22:44.320 --> 1:22:47.840 Like I don't know how old the oldest among us is, 1:22:47.880 --> 1:22:50.639 but I know I'm forty three, and we have somebody 1:22:50.640 --> 1:22:53.680 as young as eighteen on the workforce. 1:22:53.280 --> 1:22:56.760 And they're all in the picky line together. It's beautiful. 1:22:57.360 --> 1:23:00.800 It's it's incredible. What is what is the state of 1:23:00.840 --> 1:23:04.280 things sort of right now? And what are you fighting 1:23:04.280 --> 1:23:07.160 for in the strike? And I guess how can people help? 1:23:08.080 --> 1:23:12.040 Big questions? Well, we are officially endorsed by the IWW. 1:23:12.080 --> 1:23:16.920 We are now IWW Industrial Union six'. Ten the picket is. 1:23:17.000 --> 1:23:20.920 Ongoing our fellow union members are on the picket line 1:23:21.000 --> 1:23:24.519 right now as we are recording. This at this, point 1:23:24.600 --> 1:23:27.960 management has elected not to bargain with. Us they have 1:23:28.240 --> 1:23:31.720 sent a copy and paste letter to all of us 1:23:31.800 --> 1:23:36.920 who were present for the walkout On may, twentieth basically 1:23:37.600 --> 1:23:43.840 requesting a response and making some demonstrably materially false allegations 1:23:43.920 --> 1:23:49.240 about the nature of the walkout and the conversations that 1:23:49.280 --> 1:23:53.639 we're had with. Management so we have a letter from 1:23:53.680 --> 1:23:55.920 the union that we are going to send from the 1:23:55.960 --> 1:23:59.560 union email address and will be endorsed by all the individual. 1:23:59.600 --> 1:24:03.160 Members but other than, that that's the only contact we've 1:24:03.240 --> 1:24:06.840 hat with. Management so they do not seem interested in 1:24:07.040 --> 1:24:10.280 bargaining or in resolving the. Strike they have not asked for. 1:24:10.400 --> 1:24:12.960 Demands our demands are fairly. 1:24:13.000 --> 1:24:17.479 Simple having management go no contact drud to strike is not, 1:24:17.640 --> 1:24:21.720 normal like completely literally no context for one. Email that's 1:24:21.760 --> 1:24:25.920 like weird by management drud toh strike, Standards like usually 1:24:26.000 --> 1:24:30.240 they're at least, communicating like sometimes they do, this but like. 1:24:30.400 --> 1:24:32.240 That's fucked by management. 1:24:32.320 --> 1:24:36.160 Standards SO i can explain why that. Is do you 1:24:36.200 --> 1:24:39.760 remember earlier when djus said that on a lantry had 1:24:39.800 --> 1:24:41.640 declared that this conversation was. 1:24:41.680 --> 1:24:44.080 Over it's still. 1:24:44.120 --> 1:24:52.439 Over it's still. Over oh my, god this conversation is still. 1:24:52.479 --> 1:24:56.719 Over because that's what she tells herself when she needs 1:24:56.720 --> 1:24:57.200 to feel in. 1:24:57.320 --> 1:25:01.120 Control so we would, assume SO i would assume that 1:25:01.200 --> 1:25:01.800 is that is. 1:25:01.840 --> 1:25:05.840 True i've been treating lists like game, theory and that 1:25:05.960 --> 1:25:11.280 opinion is purely. Speculative what's not speculative is our demands 1:25:12.000 --> 1:25:16.280 reinstatement of employment of all union, members including those terminated 1:25:16.479 --> 1:25:21.120 prior To may twentieth twenty twenty, six the expungement of 1:25:21.200 --> 1:25:27.960 all disciplinary records for all reinstated, employees backpay for all reinstated, 1:25:28.000 --> 1:25:34.200 employees the immediate cessation to any and all collections activities 1:25:34.240 --> 1:25:38.120 related to the outstanding debts owed to REAL U electrolysis 1:25:38.479 --> 1:25:44.040 by any and all union, members voluntary recognition of REAL 1:25:44.240 --> 1:25:50.960 U Electrolysis Workers UNITED iwwiu six,' ten and the immediate 1:25:51.040 --> 1:25:55.519 commencement of bargaining for a new labor contract wherein our 1:25:55.640 --> 1:25:58.559 right to strike shall not. Be curtailed. 1:26:00.240 --> 1:26:02.479 This is like one of the THINGS that i think 1:26:02.520 --> 1:26:06.639 about a lot in terms of just how unbelievably unreasonable management, 1:26:06.680 --> 1:26:10.400 is being which is that those are such unbelievably reasonable and, 1:26:10.439 --> 1:26:14.679 moderate DEMANDS like i, don't know like when you reach 1:26:14.760 --> 1:26:18.639 the point where like paychecks are bouncing because your bosses are, 1:26:18.760 --> 1:26:23.000 Fucking you like just just the amount of reasonableness and 1:26:23.120 --> 1:26:25.519 maturity that all of you are showing and the just 1:26:26.479 --> 1:26:30.679 mix of staggering incompetence and evil management. 1:26:30.720 --> 1:26:33.400 Is showing is it's. 1:26:33.520 --> 1:26:37.360 Really Staggering, And YEAH and i guess that leads me 1:26:37.400 --> 1:26:40.240 to the other part, of that, which, is yeah how 1:26:40.280 --> 1:26:40.840 can people? 1:26:41.200 --> 1:26:45.000 Support? Y'all yeah that's sort of like an ongoing thing 1:26:45.040 --> 1:26:47.320 we're working on. Putting together we don't really have like 1:26:47.479 --> 1:26:51.200 a web presence at the time of. This recording we 1:26:51.240 --> 1:26:54.120 do have an email address for the union that we've 1:26:54.120 --> 1:26:57.840 been directing, people towards and that is, all lowercase all 1:26:57.840 --> 1:27:03.680 one Word Real union electrolysis at gmail. Dot com and 1:27:03.720 --> 1:27:08.120 that's ELECTROLYSIS IS E L E C T R O 1:27:09.160 --> 1:27:10.360 L Y S. I. 1:27:10.720 --> 1:27:13.000 S yeah, we will we will put we'll put the 1:27:13.000 --> 1:27:16.640 email in the description and fantastic when media stuff and 1:27:16.760 --> 1:27:19.280 like social media stuff, gets online we will we'll put 1:27:19.280 --> 1:27:19.559 that in the. 1:27:19.560 --> 1:27:22.439 Description, too yeah, right now that is the best way to. 1:27:22.439 --> 1:27:25.680 Reach us believe you could also reach out TO the 1:27:25.720 --> 1:27:30.360 Iww and portland since that's so we're. Working with they 1:27:30.400 --> 1:27:33.600 do coordinate things like strike funds and financial assistance and, 1:27:33.640 --> 1:27:37.560 all that and so we do have their resources available, 1:27:37.600 --> 1:27:40.599 to us and that might be the most. Expedient way, 1:27:41.360 --> 1:27:44.200 but yeah we are working as fast as we can 1:27:44.280 --> 1:27:48.400 to get other, things going like. Internet presence this has 1:27:48.439 --> 1:27:53.519 all happens, so quickly. It's, astonishing also do you want 1:27:53.520 --> 1:27:56.120 people to show up to? Your pickets and, if so where? Is? That, 1:27:56.400 --> 1:27:57.680 oh please we. 1:27:57.680 --> 1:28:01.200 Would Love that the address for that is nine Oh 1:28:01.240 --> 1:28:08.240 Seven harney Street, In, Vancouver Washington, Downtown. Vancouver washington i'll say, 1:28:08.240 --> 1:28:11.280 that again it's nine Oh Seven. Harney, Street awesome i'm 1:28:11.320 --> 1:28:11.960 out show. 1:28:12.000 --> 1:28:15.960 Your support. Thank, You yeah and the picket does take 1:28:16.000 --> 1:28:18.599 place like at the mouth of the. PARKING lot i 1:28:18.640 --> 1:28:21.240 know there has been some confusion from some folks who 1:28:21.280 --> 1:28:23.479 wanted to come out as to where they. Meet us, 1:28:23.600 --> 1:28:27.639 you know it's On On. Harney street like just listen 1:28:27.720 --> 1:28:30.080 for the music and the cheers and you'll. Find. 1:28:30.160 --> 1:28:33.120 Us Yeah and i've been out to visit the picket 1:28:33.120 --> 1:28:36.200 line and it's it's a really. Sweet time everyone there 1:28:36.280 --> 1:28:39.519 is great and as always are bringing, Picket lines like 1:28:39.920 --> 1:28:43.759 just just being on a picket line just in support 1:28:44.240 --> 1:28:48.960 is like get. Incredible experience and also like you if 1:28:49.000 --> 1:28:52.400 you can like bring food and water, and stuff it's 1:28:52.400 --> 1:28:53.439 always something that helps. 1:28:54.040 --> 1:28:57.920 A lot and, oh, yes yeah. Thank you by, the, 1:28:57.960 --> 1:29:02.360 WAY yes i would like you also add as far as, 1:29:02.400 --> 1:29:05.519 support is it's not just us who, need support it's also. Our, 1:29:05.600 --> 1:29:11.639 Patients yeah so anybody who is practicing electrolysis In The 1:29:12.160 --> 1:29:17.439 Greater portland, vancouver area who is willing to provide care 1:29:17.560 --> 1:29:21.000 to our displaced patients please reach out to that email 1:29:21.000 --> 1:29:22.920 address as well so that we can direct them. To. 1:29:22.960 --> 1:29:28.160 You, Awesome Well DeAsia jack You made thank you so 1:29:28.240 --> 1:29:32.160 much for coming on. The show, AND yeah i hope 1:29:32.200 --> 1:29:34.160 we can talk to you fairly soon after. 1:29:34.200 --> 1:29:37.200 You win, Thank you thank you for, having us thank 1:29:37.200 --> 1:29:39.960 you for letting us tell. Our, story yeah of course. 1:29:40.040 --> 1:29:43.080 It's incredible this is such a big help and you 1:29:43.080 --> 1:29:46.040 you also are such an inspiration and such a treasure to. 1:29:46.120 --> 1:29:48.680 This Community like i've been doing so good and not 1:29:48.840 --> 1:29:52.000 thank girling over being on, your show BUT like i 1:29:52.040 --> 1:29:54.120 have a long, time listener and so this is, just 1:29:54.240 --> 1:29:57.760 like oh, my god oh, My god i'm talking to 1:29:57.880 --> 1:30:00.960 Me a walt. Right NOW well i think. 1:30:01.280 --> 1:30:03.439 YOU KNOW a i want, TO say i think what 1:30:03.520 --> 1:30:05.800 you're doing is significant and more inspiring than me going 1:30:05.800 --> 1:30:08.400 on and doing. A podcast like the fact that you 1:30:08.400 --> 1:30:12.040 you running this strike is just, fucking incredible and the 1:30:12.080 --> 1:30:14.599 fact that you're fighting for your people and fighting for 1:30:15.880 --> 1:30:22.200 your patience is a just unbelievable credit to all of 1:30:22.240 --> 1:30:26.160 you as people, and too, you know like just like 1:30:26.280 --> 1:30:28.760 to to two trans people, in general you are a 1:30:28.800 --> 1:30:32.680 credit to. Us all thank, YOU also i want, to 1:30:32.680 --> 1:30:35.000 say and this is more Evident something i've been saying 1:30:35.000 --> 1:30:36.680 on the show for a. Long time but like the 1:30:36.720 --> 1:30:40.800 people who form, unions there it's not some kind of 1:30:40.880 --> 1:30:44.879 just like special class. Of people it's it's, just literally, 1:30:45.680 --> 1:30:49.360 it's ordinary everyday people like you, the listener who are 1:30:49.400 --> 1:30:51.519 the people who join these things and build these booplets 1:30:51.560 --> 1:30:51.800 and fight. 1:30:51.840 --> 1:30:53.719 For them and. 1:30:54.080 --> 1:30:57.360 You know like you too can be the person who 1:30:58.400 --> 1:31:01.759 builds builds the union you were place and fights forward 1:31:01.800 --> 1:31:06.960 and wins. Creat end when we, work together when we, 1:31:07.040 --> 1:31:08.960 organize together when, we fight we can. Fucking win. 1:31:09.400 --> 1:31:12.559 We, can yeah if, WE'RE done i need to get 1:31:12.600 --> 1:31:14.599 out to the front LINE so i can get back 1:31:14.600 --> 1:31:16.479 to hollering at these people because they. 1:31:16.479 --> 1:31:19.000 Need Hollered, App yeah i'm all fired. 1:31:19.080 --> 1:31:47.200 Up Now, SO, minneapolis hi and Welcome, to outlaw a 1:31:47.280 --> 1:31:50.479 podcast about how the law is used to crush descent IN. 1:31:50.560 --> 1:31:54.960 The us i'm, Your. Host olive on the previous Episode, 1:31:55.000 --> 1:31:57.840 of Outlaw On It Could, happen here we zoomed in 1:31:58.200 --> 1:32:01.720 on legal repression of rapid respire bonders in Ice. Occupied 1:32:01.760 --> 1:32:06.439 minneapolis on, This episode i'm Joined, By bina Joey And, 1:32:06.600 --> 1:32:12.320 moe movement attorneys Based In, New york Illinois. And california in, 1:32:12.360 --> 1:32:15.360 this conversation we zoom out to talk about the larger 1:32:15.400 --> 1:32:18.439 trends and repression of RESISTANCE to ice activity across the 1:32:18.479 --> 1:32:21.720 country and how to prepare for the long, road ahead. 1:32:22.479 --> 1:32:24.280 From, the north From, the south. 1:32:24.760 --> 1:32:29.160 From everywhere Welcome. To outlaw, to start could you all, 1:32:29.200 --> 1:32:32.519 introduce yourselves the work you do and how it connects 1:32:32.560 --> 1:32:36.639 to the repression OF anti ice. Protest, ACTIVITY okay. 1:32:36.439 --> 1:32:38.920 I guess we're gonna start with the. Oldest here My Name's. 1:32:39.000 --> 1:32:42.639 JOEY mogul i am Based. 1:32:42.680 --> 1:32:47.839 IN chicago i am the Director Of movement Partnerships At Movement, 1:32:48.120 --> 1:32:52.040 law lab which is a national organization that is very 1:32:52.080 --> 1:32:54.920 much in the anti authoritarian fight in. 1:32:55.000 --> 1:32:57.440 The nation prior To Joining. 1:32:57.120 --> 1:33:00.920 Movement, LAW lab i was At The People's law office 1:33:01.000 --> 1:33:04.719 for over twenty, six YEARS where i did mostly civil 1:33:04.840 --> 1:33:10.080 rights litigation against law enforcement officials and criminal defense of 1:33:10.640 --> 1:33:14.760 police violence survivors as well as protesters, and organizers and 1:33:14.840 --> 1:33:18.880 at different points have been proud to represent several organizers 1:33:18.880 --> 1:33:24.439 and many movements seeking justice. And liberation i'm also Part 1:33:24.479 --> 1:33:28.040 Of Chicago Torture justice memorials and a board member Of 1:33:28.080 --> 1:33:32.360 The Chicago Torture justice center and very much involved in 1:33:32.800 --> 1:33:37.679 the movement, for, justice redress and particularly Reparations for chicago 1:33:37.800 --> 1:33:43.120 police torture survivors during. The surge Here, IN chicago i 1:33:43.160 --> 1:33:45.040 was proud to work with a group known As The 1:33:45.040 --> 1:33:48.920 Black Community, care collective serving as a coordinator of their. 1:33:49.000 --> 1:33:51.880 Legal committee and that was a group that was very 1:33:51.920 --> 1:33:55.280 much involved in the resistance and care work that was 1:33:55.320 --> 1:33:58.640 Happening During Operation, MIDWAIGHTLETS. 1:33:58.439 --> 1:34:01.439 Joe i don't know if you're the oldest, person HERE 1:34:01.479 --> 1:34:04.160 but i was referred to today as A gen, x 1:34:04.280 --> 1:34:05.759 loser if that makes you feel. 1:34:05.760 --> 1:34:06.600 Any better. 1:34:08.080 --> 1:34:09.439 My Name Is Maura. 1:34:09.560 --> 1:34:13.719 Meltzer cohen everybody CALLS. ME mo i am an attorney 1:34:13.720 --> 1:34:19.640 in private Practice In new YORK and i work in 1:34:19.680 --> 1:34:24.479 particular to defend people against the politically motivated abuse of the. 1:34:24.560 --> 1:34:30.439 LEGAL system i Also Teach Federal, Indian Law professional Responsibility 1:34:30.520 --> 1:34:35.360 and LAWYERING At cuny School of law to the world's 1:34:35.400 --> 1:34:36.479 best and most brilliant. 1:34:36.560 --> 1:34:41.040 Law students Hi everybody bina ahfa she. HER pronouns i 1:34:41.120 --> 1:34:44.040 also have referred to as an ELDER and i don't 1:34:44.040 --> 1:34:45.679 know when, that happened but here. 1:34:45.680 --> 1:34:46.120 WE are. 1:34:47.640 --> 1:34:51.000 I am currently an associate at a law From in 1:34:51.120 --> 1:34:54.799 la Called hatzel stormer RUNNIGAND where i practice civil rights 1:34:55.040 --> 1:34:59.360 impact litigation and also where we are external general counsel 1:34:59.520 --> 1:35:03.160 for some, movement Groups including Muslims For just Futures And 1:35:03.240 --> 1:35:06.960 jewish Boys. For peace before going To hadzel storm and 1:35:07.000 --> 1:35:10.200 switching to, CIVIL rights i was a state and federal 1:35:10.240 --> 1:35:13.439 public defender for nearly, a decade a state Defender In 1:35:13.479 --> 1:35:16.960 new york and a federal defender HERE. In la prior, 1:35:16.960 --> 1:35:19.800 TO that i practiced international law and animal, rights law 1:35:20.520 --> 1:35:23.040 and a lot of my motivation as well has been 1:35:23.080 --> 1:35:27.400 to support movements and organizers fighting back against the. State 1:35:27.439 --> 1:35:30.559 repression but that's been a big part of, my work 1:35:31.040 --> 1:35:34.439 giving Know your, rights trainings advising people and organizers and 1:35:34.520 --> 1:35:37.280 organizations on their rights and what they, you know what 1:35:37.320 --> 1:35:38.080 the law says. 1:35:37.840 --> 1:35:38.240 You can and. 1:35:38.280 --> 1:35:39.439 Can't do from a. 1:35:39.520 --> 1:35:43.400 Radical, lens well thank you all for being here over 1:35:43.439 --> 1:35:47.320 the past, few years from the Movement For palestinian liberation 1:35:47.560 --> 1:35:50.320 to the many ways people are organizing against ice and. 1:35:50.400 --> 1:35:54.519 Authoritarianism today i'm curious to start by just hearing a 1:35:54.560 --> 1:35:58.559 little bit about what broad shifts you're tracking right now 1:35:58.640 --> 1:36:02.360 in the state's playbook for. Crushing, DISSENT well I mean. 1:36:02.240 --> 1:36:04.719 I think that, we've seen and you're talking to people 1:36:04.720 --> 1:36:09.360 who've represented organizers and activists who have been prosecuted by 1:36:09.960 --> 1:36:14.000 state actors. FOR decades i think that what, we're seeing 1:36:14.120 --> 1:36:19.280 particularly with, this administration is the weaponization of, federal charges 1:36:19.720 --> 1:36:22.639 and we're seeing the weaponization of federal charges, en MASS 1:36:23.120 --> 1:36:23.840 and i think this is. 1:36:23.880 --> 1:36:26.000 By design we are seeing. 1:36:25.720 --> 1:36:31.559 That With The National Security presidential memorandum number seven Issued 1:36:31.600 --> 1:36:34.960 By president trump, and administration where they are wanting to 1:36:35.080 --> 1:36:38.439 enlist the Use Of Joint Terrorism task force to go 1:36:38.479 --> 1:36:42.760 after people they deem to be quote domestic, terrorists unquote 1:36:43.360 --> 1:36:46.760 and that means they are going after individuals who they 1:36:46.880 --> 1:36:52.320 claim have extreme viewpoints, on immigration radical, gender Ideology anti. 1:36:52.360 --> 1:36:56.559 AMERICAN sentiment i don't believe we agree with, these determinations and, 1:36:56.600 --> 1:36:58.840 in fact we absolutely oppose and object to. 1:36:58.880 --> 1:37:00.719 These determinations but these. 1:37:00.560 --> 1:37:04.360 Are individuals who do not agree with this administration's views 1:37:04.479 --> 1:37:09.320 or takes, on immigration, on gender on anti, black violence and. 1:37:09.360 --> 1:37:13.040 The rest and we see though that this administration is 1:37:13.080 --> 1:37:16.719 actually working hand in glove with. One another so after 1:37:16.800 --> 1:37:19.840 the issuance Of The National Security presidential memorana, over seven 1:37:20.200 --> 1:37:23.120 we Now have panbiani IN The Us attorney's office issuing 1:37:23.120 --> 1:37:27.440 This memorandum, december fourth, twenty five where they are basically 1:37:27.479 --> 1:37:30.840 calling On The joint Terriors And, task force they're calling on, 1:37:30.920 --> 1:37:33.719 federal agents and they're calling On the Department of justice 1:37:34.040 --> 1:37:38.439 to go after organizers and activists throughout. The nation they 1:37:38.520 --> 1:37:42.120 list twenty seven enumerated crimes and those memos things, like, 1:37:42.320 --> 1:37:47.720 rioting looting so, called, doxing swatting conspiracies to impede or 1:37:47.760 --> 1:37:50.800 assault law, enforcement officers destruction, of property and. 1:37:50.760 --> 1:37:53.439 The rest as well as trying to enlist the use 1:37:53.479 --> 1:37:53.760 of the. 1:37:53.720 --> 1:37:57.800 Irs and other tax crimes to go after organizers and 1:37:58.040 --> 1:38:02.960 organizations in. Several, ways essentially anyone who opposes this administration 1:38:03.600 --> 1:38:04.320 is someone in the. 1:38:04.360 --> 1:38:07.800 Target sites can you tell me more about what these 1:38:07.840 --> 1:38:10.960 federal charges are and what is new about what we're seeing? 1:38:11.040 --> 1:38:15.240 Right now so now what we've seen since the onset of, 1:38:15.240 --> 1:38:18.640 this administration so for over a year now we have 1:38:18.840 --> 1:38:23.599 seen the exponential rise and federal charges being lodged. 1:38:23.640 --> 1:38:27.639 AGAINST organizers i think that is very much a different 1:38:28.080 --> 1:38:31.920 landscape than we have seen. In DECADES and i don't 1:38:31.960 --> 1:38:34.240 want to say there hasn't been the use By the 1:38:34.240 --> 1:38:37.320 Department of justice to bring federal charges in, the past 1:38:37.760 --> 1:38:41.160 but not in this massive scale that we are currently 1:38:41.200 --> 1:38:45.080 seeing it. Right now and so what we are, SEEING 1:38:45.280 --> 1:38:49.839 is i, would say, in particular we're seeing, these assault 1:38:50.240 --> 1:38:54.599 impeding harassing, officer charges which IS. Eighteen usc section, one 1:38:54.680 --> 1:38:59.280 eleven being brought in scores across. The nation that is 1:38:59.320 --> 1:39:02.880 not something we typically have. Seen before we are also 1:39:02.960 --> 1:39:08.479 seeing charges of conspiracy to impede OFFICERS. Eighteen usc section two. Forty, 1:39:08.479 --> 1:39:11.799 one again that's not something we generally have. Seen, BEFORE 1:39:12.680 --> 1:39:15.040 generally i, can say, for example as someone who Was 1:39:15.080 --> 1:39:19.280 in chicago who was part of representing protesters who were 1:39:19.520 --> 1:39:24.960 Protesting The Democratic. National convention generally the federal government and federal. 1:39:24.680 --> 1:39:26.799 Agencies don't get involved in protest. 1:39:26.880 --> 1:39:31.240 Related activity but for arson cases prior To the, trump 1:39:31.280 --> 1:39:34.840 administration that playbook is out and this new playbook. Is 1:39:34.840 --> 1:39:38.160 in so we are absolutely seeing the federal government stepping 1:39:38.240 --> 1:39:42.640 in and engaging in this policing and persecution of protesters 1:39:42.680 --> 1:39:45.960 and organizers in a way that we have not. Seen before, 1:39:46.520 --> 1:39:50.080 that said there's a silver lining here is the federal 1:39:50.080 --> 1:39:53.800 government is overreaching in so many of, these cases and 1:39:53.960 --> 1:39:57.400 many of these charges are. Being dismissed many of these 1:39:57.479 --> 1:40:00.640 charges are being DECLINED by, us attorneys and there have 1:40:00.800 --> 1:40:04.400 been several not guilty VERDICTS in la as well As 1:40:04.400 --> 1:40:08.400 in chicago as Well. As miami, and FURTHER what i think, 1:40:08.439 --> 1:40:11.080 is STRIKING and i think that this is really unheard 1:40:11.120 --> 1:40:14.280 of for criminal defense attorneys, in particular is we're actually 1:40:14.360 --> 1:40:17.200 seeing grand juries refusing to indict in. 1:40:17.280 --> 1:40:19.360 These cases and given. 1:40:19.160 --> 1:40:22.920 How biased grand jury, investigations go how one sided, they 1:40:22.960 --> 1:40:26.120 are to have the grand juries come back and not 1:40:26.240 --> 1:40:30.320 return an indictment really is showing that people are resisting 1:40:30.720 --> 1:40:34.000 and they are not buying the government's slogan and lines 1:40:34.080 --> 1:40:36.360 and playbook, on this and they, are, saying no we're 1:40:36.360 --> 1:40:38.519 not going to put up. With this so while on 1:40:38.560 --> 1:40:42.000 the one hand it's a whole, new landscape we're also 1:40:42.400 --> 1:40:45.559 seeing the counterpart of, people resisting and that includes in the. 1:40:45.560 --> 1:40:48.680 Federal courts if the term grand jury is new, to 1:40:48.720 --> 1:40:52.759 you it's basically a special jury in federal criminal cases 1:40:53.200 --> 1:40:56.760 that is appointed to decide if there's enough evidence to 1:40:56.840 --> 1:41:01.200 bring the official, criminal charge the indictment against, the defendant 1:41:01.720 --> 1:41:05.280 but they're super rigged against. The defendant basically they, always 1:41:05.360 --> 1:41:09.920 indict and often the grand jury process is just an 1:41:09.960 --> 1:41:14.599 information gathering tool for, the government especially in, movement cases 1:41:14.680 --> 1:41:18.280 people get subpoena to testify before grand jury's in a 1:41:18.320 --> 1:41:21.320 way that often seems just like a phishing expedition because 1:41:21.360 --> 1:41:24.200 whatever they say can be used, against them and only 1:41:24.240 --> 1:41:27.519 the prosecution gets to present evidence to the. Grand jury 1:41:27.800 --> 1:41:30.439 there's a lot more to, say there but check out 1:41:30.439 --> 1:41:33.560 the show Notes and i'll link some really important conversations 1:41:33.560 --> 1:41:34.519 and resources about. 1:41:34.520 --> 1:41:38.519 GRAND jury's i think that's all, Exactly, right joey but 1:41:38.600 --> 1:41:43.240 it isn't one hundred percent. New right What the trump 1:41:43.280 --> 1:41:48.200 administration is doing is that they are able To Police 1:41:48.920 --> 1:41:55.160 first amendment, protected, identities beliefs and associations by trying to define, those, 1:41:55.400 --> 1:42:02.080 beliefs identities and associations. As terrorists and so there's a 1:42:02.240 --> 1:42:08.840 whole apparatus for fighting terrorism that they then can, pull 1:42:08.920 --> 1:42:14.640 in draw upon resources they, can use and legal authorities 1:42:14.960 --> 1:42:18.519 that they, can exercise as long as the thing that 1:42:18.560 --> 1:42:24.160 they're policing is something that can be. Called, terrorism well 1:42:25.000 --> 1:42:28.960 by defining all of these things, as terrorism that lets 1:42:29.000 --> 1:42:33.160 them sort of trigger all of these resources. And authorities 1:42:34.240 --> 1:42:38.200 those resources and authorities were not put in place by. 1:42:38.840 --> 1:42:43.679 This administration they were put In place post nine. 1:42:43.680 --> 1:42:46.200 To eleven they were put in Place By. 1:42:46.280 --> 1:42:50.240 Barack obama they were put in Place By, joe. Biden 1:42:50.800 --> 1:42:53.360 right and so this is not a problem With the. 1:42:53.400 --> 1:42:58.400 Trump administration this is a problem with the. Surveillance state 1:42:58.840 --> 1:43:03.960 this is a problem with consolidating federal police authority and 1:43:04.760 --> 1:43:09.919 making it easier and easier for the federal law enforcement 1:43:09.960 --> 1:43:15.840 apparatus to assert jurisdiction over what we would normally understand 1:43:16.160 --> 1:43:20.639 to be state level matters such as garden. 1:43:20.760 --> 1:43:23.920 Variety protest and so the shift. 1:43:23.600 --> 1:43:28.040 Is not one of kind as much as it is 1:43:28.080 --> 1:43:31.839 a shift in scope where we're seeing the federal, government 1:43:32.080 --> 1:43:37.479 TREATING as, i said garden variety protest conduct as though 1:43:37.880 --> 1:43:42.240 it is militant. Revolutionary, ACTION now i. 1:43:42.160 --> 1:43:45.559 Totally agree, with that and to underscore, your point not 1:43:45.640 --> 1:43:48.960 a single law has needed to. Be passed there's been 1:43:49.000 --> 1:43:52.120 no legislation that's needed to be changed in order to 1:43:52.160 --> 1:43:55.559 effectuate these, prosecutions whatsoever let alone this. 1:43:55.640 --> 1:43:57.479 Immigration enforcement this all. 1:43:57.520 --> 1:44:01.000 Pre Existed the trump administrationmistration hasn't passed the. 1:44:01.000 --> 1:44:02.679 Sing LAW so i absolutely agree. 1:44:02.680 --> 1:44:05.200 With you i'm just saying, you're right the garden variety 1:44:05.280 --> 1:44:07.120 level of prosecutions we, haven't seen. 1:44:06.960 --> 1:44:08.080 And it's the scale. 1:44:08.120 --> 1:44:11.920 Of this, but again we, absolutely know, for Example the 1:44:11.920 --> 1:44:15.639 biden administration Pursued The face act against Individuals in florida 1:44:16.160 --> 1:44:20.240 regarding one of these. False clinics, you know it's not 1:44:20.360 --> 1:44:23.360 that these tools weren't. USED before i just think the 1:44:23.479 --> 1:44:25.120 scope and scale is not what. 1:44:25.200 --> 1:44:26.680 We've, seen YEAH and i. 1:44:26.720 --> 1:44:29.840 Totally AGREE and i think it's important to note that 1:44:30.320 --> 1:44:34.880 the fact that the law hasn't changed, is important not 1:44:35.040 --> 1:44:39.640 simply because the laws already existed to bring, these prosecutions 1:44:40.240 --> 1:44:44.360 but because the law actually, hasn't changed which Means The 1:44:44.400 --> 1:44:48.360 first amendment remains, in effect which means that a lot of, 1:44:48.400 --> 1:44:52.839 these prosecutions as you, Pointed, out joey are going nowhere 1:44:53.320 --> 1:44:57.320 because they actually can't really be sustained under the. 1:44:57.439 --> 1:45:02.600 Current, regime yeah the scale and the aggressiveness and, THE 1:45:02.640 --> 1:45:05.880 scope i think is something we haven't really dealt, with before. 1:45:05.840 --> 1:45:06.800 You know in terms of it being. 1:45:07.120 --> 1:45:09.200 NOT new, i mean we know the founding of, this 1:45:09.240 --> 1:45:12.240 country and it's not a. Just SYSTEM and i think 1:45:12.240 --> 1:45:14.120 if we just also start, from that that is the 1:45:14.160 --> 1:45:18.679 system that protects property and white nationalism and violence and power, 1:45:18.920 --> 1:45:21.360 and CAPITALISM then i think we can sort of like 1:45:21.439 --> 1:45:24.679 see where these powers originated from and where the structure. 1:45:24.720 --> 1:45:27.880 Originated from and we've also seen that used against, you 1:45:27.960 --> 1:45:30.240 know radical, black activists. 1:45:29.720 --> 1:45:31.519 Against The american. Indian movement. 1:45:32.080 --> 1:45:34.040 You know so like a lot of these things that we're, 1:45:34.040 --> 1:45:37.599 seeing now we're tested on communities, of color, you know 1:45:37.680 --> 1:45:40.400 prior to, seeing okay, what works what, doesn't work and 1:45:40.439 --> 1:45:43.640 then bringing THIS surge i think to, our communities, YOU 1:45:43.680 --> 1:45:45.760 know i think in addition to, YOU know I think 1:45:45.800 --> 1:45:48.000 majory was saying About The, face act that is something 1:45:48.400 --> 1:45:51.360 we haven't really seen prosecutions Under The face, act before 1:45:51.439 --> 1:45:54.719 right Because The face act is actually technically to protect 1:45:54.720 --> 1:45:55.160 access to. 1:45:55.200 --> 1:45:57.960 Abortion CLINICS and i think that one thing that. 1:45:57.840 --> 1:46:02.720 This administration is doing is finding creative different ways to 1:46:02.760 --> 1:46:05.800 manipulate the laws that are already terrible to go after 1:46:05.840 --> 1:46:08.640 folks in a way that we haven't. Seen before like mo, 1:46:08.880 --> 1:46:11.599 was saying like so much of the work that we've 1:46:11.600 --> 1:46:14.559 done defending protesters, and movements a lot of it. Is stayed, 1:46:14.720 --> 1:46:16.640 of course, you know some has always, been federal but 1:46:16.680 --> 1:46:19.320 a lot is. Usually state and to then see these 1:46:19.360 --> 1:46:22.680 federal not only prosecutions For The face, ACT word, i 1:46:22.720 --> 1:46:26.559 know we'll get into the material support prosecutions but also like, 1:46:26.640 --> 1:46:29.439 civil LITIGATION which i think is something we've never, not 1:46:29.520 --> 1:46:31.640 never but really we're not prepared for or dealt with 1:46:31.680 --> 1:46:35.120 as a movement before these massive civil pieces of litigation 1:46:35.240 --> 1:46:37.559 that while on the one hand are brought mostly by 1:46:37.600 --> 1:46:40.639 private Actors like, zionist actors we know that they're really 1:46:40.680 --> 1:46:44.120 coordinated by and with the administration because then the administration 1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:47.639 has mimicked bringing these same lawsuits against these very same 1:46:47.640 --> 1:46:50.400 activists for the same causes when we know that they're, 1:46:50.439 --> 1:46:53.559 in coordination AND so i think that's also really important 1:46:53.560 --> 1:46:56.479 to know is that the, civil component, you know. The movement, 1:46:56.520 --> 1:46:59.160 of course, like criminals where we've always been the most 1:46:59.240 --> 1:47:01.840 concerned is someone liberty is on, the lines of life 1:47:01.880 --> 1:47:01.960 is on. 1:47:02.040 --> 1:47:02.800 The line but. 1:47:02.840 --> 1:47:06.000 Civil is also like this slow death right of time 1:47:06.160 --> 1:47:09.640 and money and just draining ORGANIZATIONS that i think is 1:47:09.640 --> 1:47:10.800 something that we've now had to. 1:47:11.400 --> 1:47:14.960 Really grasp katskill follow, Up, question binat can you break 1:47:15.000 --> 1:47:17.840 down for people who are listening and really not in the, 1:47:17.920 --> 1:47:22.880 legal world why a civil case impacts, someone's life why 1:47:23.080 --> 1:47:27.120 civil cases against activists are really disruptive. To, movements sure 1:47:27.760 --> 1:47:28.040 there are. 1:47:28.040 --> 1:47:31.160 Many ways so when a civil, CASE lands, i mean 1:47:31.200 --> 1:47:33.800 first you don't have the right to free counsel like 1:47:33.840 --> 1:47:37.160 you do with a. Criminal case it's not guaranteed in. 1:47:37.200 --> 1:47:41.280 The constitution you're not facing prison time, and incarceration so 1:47:41.320 --> 1:47:43.759 you're not. Guaranteed that so one you have to find 1:47:43.880 --> 1:47:46.400 either free counsel or you can pay for someone to. 1:47:46.479 --> 1:47:49.559 Defend you and when the, lawsuit lands there's so many things. 1:47:49.560 --> 1:47:53.400 That happen there's an affirmative obligation, for you as the 1:47:53.400 --> 1:47:56.519 one who's, being sued to preserve any evidence that could 1:47:56.560 --> 1:47:59.840 be relevant to. The case that is completely antithetical to 1:48:00.120 --> 1:48:00.479 a lot of. 1:48:00.640 --> 1:48:02.960 Movements do we don't like save documents and then turn 1:48:03.000 --> 1:48:03.760 them over to the. 1:48:03.760 --> 1:48:06.519 Other side we're going to, you know keep our work 1:48:06.560 --> 1:48:09.280 internal and our organizing and who we. Work with and 1:48:09.439 --> 1:48:13.400 civil lawsuits really make that really difficult because you have 1:48:13.479 --> 1:48:15.559 to turn over discovery if it gets that far in, 1:48:15.600 --> 1:48:18.080 the case and you can't, you know, delete things and 1:48:18.120 --> 1:48:20.559 you can't let things get deleted luck, on signal and if, 1:48:20.600 --> 1:48:22.280 you know you can, be sanctioned and there's all these 1:48:22.280 --> 1:48:23.960 things that could happen if they find out that, that 1:48:24.080 --> 1:48:27.200 happened and then you're, subject to, you know other things like, 1:48:27.240 --> 1:48:30.040 being deposed, being questioned by the, other side a lot 1:48:30.120 --> 1:48:31.960 things you don't want to talk about and that are 1:48:31.960 --> 1:48:35.000 really antithetical to what we what, we do and these 1:48:35.040 --> 1:48:38.880 cases can go on for years, and years and even if, 1:48:38.920 --> 1:48:40.800 you win there can, be appeals there can, you know 1:48:40.840 --> 1:48:44.000 there's there's just so much that doesn't feel like it 1:48:44.040 --> 1:48:47.519 ever ends with, civil litigation and so much where people, 1:48:48.000 --> 1:48:49.639 you know even just have moved on in, their Lives 1:48:49.640 --> 1:48:51.320 like i've moved a, different city you have a different, 1:48:51.360 --> 1:48:53.720 job now but you're still always tied back to this. 1:48:53.800 --> 1:48:55.479 Civil case and there's no sort of like right to 1:48:55.479 --> 1:48:57.920 a speedy trial in a, civil case right that's that's 1:48:57.920 --> 1:49:00.400 for a. Criminal case so all of, this Stuff and 1:49:00.479 --> 1:49:02.840 i'm sure there's many Other things i'm not mentioning that 1:49:03.240 --> 1:49:05.439 you have to go through or that impact your life 1:49:05.479 --> 1:49:08.400 once you're being, civilly soon but a lot, of that, 1:49:08.640 --> 1:49:10.839 you know it's it's not again like things. 1:49:10.600 --> 1:49:12.320 That we have really dealt with as a. 1:49:12.360 --> 1:49:15.640 Movement before and, you know, really importantly people don't have 1:49:15.720 --> 1:49:18.479 the money to pay for lawyers for years and years, 1:49:18.479 --> 1:49:22.200 and years and it's really expensive to do civil litigation and. 1:49:22.240 --> 1:49:24.800 Civil defense it goes. On forever you have to do 1:49:24.920 --> 1:49:29.080 so many different pieces of discovery and, you know motions 1:49:29.120 --> 1:49:31.479 and like all of that is so much, more involved 1:49:31.880 --> 1:49:33.880 and IT really i think part of the tactic is to. 1:49:34.000 --> 1:49:36.920 Bankrupt organizations that's a big part of why these actors 1:49:36.960 --> 1:49:37.519 are bringing these. 1:49:37.520 --> 1:49:50.800 CIVIL suits. 1:49:49.240 --> 1:49:53.680 I just want to intervene strategically at this moment to 1:49:53.880 --> 1:49:59.280 say that Everything that Joey and bina are talking about 1:49:59.479 --> 1:50:03.519 is true and critical, and important and we need to 1:50:03.560 --> 1:50:08.720 be so alert to the way that these federal apparatuses are. 1:50:09.120 --> 1:50:10.919 Being deployed against. 1:50:10.960 --> 1:50:15.559 Our COMMUNITIES but i also want to say that one 1:50:15.600 --> 1:50:18.439 of the things we have seen over the last couple 1:50:18.479 --> 1:50:21.240 of YEARS that i think is so important and we 1:50:21.560 --> 1:50:24.920 have to hang on to for, dear life is that when, 1:50:24.960 --> 1:50:29.880 we fight. We win and so what we're starting to, 1:50:29.960 --> 1:50:33.559 see now, you know we just saw some of my 1:50:34.520 --> 1:50:39.280 impressive and beloved Colleagues At counity School of law are 1:50:39.439 --> 1:50:44.040 litigating a case right now in the federal Courts About 1:50:44.040 --> 1:50:48.240 columbia university's repression of. Student activists and what we're seeing 1:50:49.040 --> 1:50:51.840 is the court coming back with these rulings that Say 1:50:52.320 --> 1:50:57.880 anti zionism is not. Hate Speech, columbia university acting at 1:50:57.920 --> 1:51:01.640 the behest of the executive makes them subject to the 1:51:01.680 --> 1:51:05.880 constraints Of The. First amendment it's potentially violative Of The 1:51:05.880 --> 1:51:10.400 first amendment to discipline students for engaging in. Speech right 1:51:10.720 --> 1:51:14.799 we're seeing people fight these, federal cases both criminal, and civil. 1:51:15.320 --> 1:51:19.360 And Winning as, joey mentioned we're seeing grand juries declining 1:51:19.439 --> 1:51:23.480 to issue indictments or to authorize prosecutors to. Issue INDICTMENTS 1:51:23.840 --> 1:51:27.080 so i do want, to say, you know we really 1:51:27.120 --> 1:51:32.280 do see the power of communities taking on that, legal 1:51:32.320 --> 1:51:37.559 battle fighting with, you know our, community movement legal people 1:51:38.160 --> 1:51:42.200 and meeting that challenge. Head ON and, i think as 1:51:42.760 --> 1:51:47.599 devastating and exhausting as, it is and as terrible as 1:51:47.600 --> 1:51:53.040 the consequences and the risks, REALLY are i do want 1:51:53.080 --> 1:51:55.760 to say we do see people having a lot, of 1:51:55.800 --> 1:51:59.439 courage marshaling a lot of resources and energy and. 1:51:59.560 --> 1:52:01.360 Winning reliably. 1:52:02.320 --> 1:52:06.000 Thank YOU and, I know joey you started talking a 1:52:06.000 --> 1:52:09.519 little bit about what we've been seeing broadly across the 1:52:09.560 --> 1:52:13.200 country and how the state has been repressing specifically anti. 1:52:13.240 --> 1:52:15.840 ICE activity i know you've been Based in chicago and 1:52:16.240 --> 1:52:21.080 particularly tuned into what's, happening there and it's been Similar, 1:52:21.120 --> 1:52:23.599 in minneapolis where it's been a lot OF eighteen usc 1:52:23.680 --> 1:52:27.320 one eleven cases, federal charges and part of what is 1:52:27.320 --> 1:52:31.479 coming up is just unpreparedness for movements to meet and 1:52:31.520 --> 1:52:35.559 defend against these kinds. Of charges and also similar vein 1:52:35.800 --> 1:52:39.160 to THE question i, just asked why it matters for 1:52:39.439 --> 1:52:42.759 people's lives and form of movements that it's federal charges 1:52:42.840 --> 1:52:44.160 coming down instead of STATE. 1:52:44.240 --> 1:52:48.759 Charges FINA when i transitioned from state to, federal defense 1:52:49.240 --> 1:52:53.679 my reaction, Was, like state it's always horrible just being 1:52:53.720 --> 1:52:56.280 in the criminal system. And fighting it's Very like David, 1:52:56.320 --> 1:52:59.200 And GOLIATH but i FELT like i had a more 1:52:59.200 --> 1:53:01.400 of a fighting chance in. State COURT when i got. 1:53:01.400 --> 1:53:05.120 To federal it was shocking how much worse it felt for, 1:53:05.240 --> 1:53:08.640 my clients how restricted you are in. 1:53:09.040 --> 1:53:09.960 A state it. 1:53:09.880 --> 1:53:11.760 Really feels like when you're doing, a trial you have 1:53:11.880 --> 1:53:13.680 the power to kind of run. The show right, of 1:53:13.680 --> 1:53:16.840 course a judge can like shoot down many motions, for 1:53:16.920 --> 1:53:20.280 experts for like for, you know doing, certain defenses but 1:53:20.360 --> 1:53:23.040 federal is so much more constrained in, my experience where 1:53:23.439 --> 1:53:25.920 federal judges want to have to so much, more POWER 1:53:25.960 --> 1:53:28.479 and I think i wasn't also just didn't appreciate how 1:53:28.560 --> 1:53:31.479 much more power federal judges had and how much more 1:53:31.520 --> 1:53:33.720 they were willing to. Wield it BUT also i think 1:53:33.720 --> 1:53:36.800 in terms of the charges, are heavier plea barreeting and 1:53:36.880 --> 1:53:38.200 sentencing is so much harder. 1:53:38.200 --> 1:53:40.760 And heavier you're. Very restricted even though the. 1:53:40.720 --> 1:53:44.200 Sentencing guidelines, for instance are no, longer mandatory that's what 1:53:44.320 --> 1:53:48.280 everyone judges and prosecutors still mostly. Go by there's so 1:53:48.320 --> 1:53:52.120 many more. Mandatory minimums it's so easy to catch a federal, 1:53:52.200 --> 1:53:54.960 charge too, you know things like even just, gun possession 1:53:55.080 --> 1:53:57.839 right because a gun might have been Manufactured in texas 1:53:57.840 --> 1:54:00.400 and then Bought, in california which most people wouldn't is a, 1:54:00.400 --> 1:54:04.000 federal offense but it can be. Charged federally just all of, 1:54:04.040 --> 1:54:06.479 THOSE factors i THINK just i realized how much harder 1:54:06.560 --> 1:54:08.800 it was in federal court for my clients to have a. 1:54:08.840 --> 1:54:11.920 Fighting chance but you know that, BEING said i don't 1:54:12.000 --> 1:54:14.080 mean to make states sound like it's this like set, 1:54:14.080 --> 1:54:15.200 of gold like, oh great and we're. 1:54:15.080 --> 1:54:16.920 Going to do whatever we want. In state not. 1:54:17.040 --> 1:54:19.600 AT all i FELT like i could. FIGHT more i 1:54:19.640 --> 1:54:22.639 had more leeway to fight. In state, You KNOW federal 1:54:22.800 --> 1:54:24.759 i think is a whole is a whole. Other animal 1:54:25.400 --> 1:54:26.120 that was a. 1:54:26.120 --> 1:54:29.200 Great answer and if either of you don't have anything 1:54:29.200 --> 1:54:32.040 more pressing TO add i would turn us back to 1:54:32.480 --> 1:54:34.800 just the question of if there's anything else we wanted 1:54:34.800 --> 1:54:40.280 to talk about trends in charging across the country of anti. Ice, 1:54:40.360 --> 1:54:41.680 PROTEST well. 1:54:41.520 --> 1:54:41.840 I know i. 1:54:41.880 --> 1:54:43.880 JUST don't I think i want to echo Something that moways, 1:54:43.920 --> 1:54:45.640 talked About and i'm not trying to leave, it OUT 1:54:45.640 --> 1:54:48.360 but i do think the resistance this is, so AMAZING 1:54:48.400 --> 1:54:51.280 and i think that, you know essentially people are being 1:54:51.360 --> 1:54:55.280 Arrested For first, amendment activity whether it's it's VIDEO recording 1:54:55.800 --> 1:55:01.080 ICE and cbp, agents actions whether it's foul, going officers 1:55:01.160 --> 1:55:05.080 whether it's announcing their presence. With whistles we've seen, People 1:55:05.320 --> 1:55:10.480 arrested we've seen, people detain we've seen. People interrogated sometimes, 1:55:10.520 --> 1:55:14.360 they're charged sometimes. They're NOT but i think what's striking 1:55:14.440 --> 1:55:16.839 is we've seen so many of these cases, fall apart 1:55:17.040 --> 1:55:20.800 and to, be honest But For, Prairie, land texas which is, 1:55:20.920 --> 1:55:24.600 devastating loss the federal government has lost in many of. 1:55:24.640 --> 1:55:28.320 These cases they've been able to charge or the cases have, 1:55:28.400 --> 1:55:30.640 been dismissed but even the ones that have gone. 1:55:30.480 --> 1:55:31.080 To trial they. 1:55:31.120 --> 1:55:33.880 Have lost and that is not SOMETHING that i think 1:55:33.920 --> 1:55:38.440 we're used to seeing in federal. Criminal, cases generally when 1:55:38.480 --> 1:55:41.520 someone's charged in federal criminal court is being and, was explaining, 1:55:42.000 --> 1:55:44.240 you know so few of the cases go to trial 1:55:44.400 --> 1:55:48.240 because so many people need to take a, plea bargain 1:55:48.440 --> 1:55:50.760 and the idea that you're going to get to go 1:55:50.800 --> 1:55:55.440 to trial and win seems. Very slim that landscape seems 1:55:55.440 --> 1:55:58.280 to be changing, as well AND so i think what 1:55:58.320 --> 1:56:00.840 we are seeing in this moment is the people, are 1:56:00.840 --> 1:56:05.640 resisting they are continuing to do This Important first, amendment 1:56:05.720 --> 1:56:08.480 work and they are not, being intimidated they are not. 1:56:08.600 --> 1:56:11.080 Being DETERRED and, i think, you know all of you 1:56:11.200 --> 1:56:14.600 and your neighbors and your friends and Folks in minnesota 1:56:14.680 --> 1:56:17.360 have proven that, to us AND so i think we're 1:56:17.360 --> 1:56:19.400 going to continue to see this type of work. Go 1:56:19.560 --> 1:56:23.200 on i'm not seeing this level of surges at this 1:56:23.360 --> 1:56:26.840 point Ongoing. POST minnesota i don't know if we're going 1:56:26.880 --> 1:56:29.760 to see a return to this prior to. THE election 1:56:30.400 --> 1:56:32.000 i don't know if we're going to see this If 1:56:32.040 --> 1:56:36.960 The insurrection act, Is invoked but RIGHT now i don't 1:56:37.040 --> 1:56:39.880 see this ongoing surge activity in terms of. 1:56:39.880 --> 1:56:41.720 Immigration enforcement it's an. 1:56:41.800 --> 1:56:45.400 Interesting point the thing you hear about federal criminal cases 1:56:45.480 --> 1:56:48.320 is like the federal government can be investigating somebody, for 1:56:48.480 --> 1:56:50.680 years so by the time that they bring, the charges 1:56:51.040 --> 1:56:53.120 they have such a strong case against them it makes 1:56:53.160 --> 1:56:56.120 it impossible to win versus what at least we've Seen 1:56:56.160 --> 1:56:58.240 in minnesota where it felt like some of these cases 1:56:58.280 --> 1:57:02.000 were being brought like pretty quickly and kind, of sloppily 1:57:02.040 --> 1:57:04.720 which is just a little bit of a different maybe 1:57:04.720 --> 1:57:07.680 a little bit more hopeful for people, in movements even 1:57:07.760 --> 1:57:13.240 though there's still are federal judges and procedural limitations that 1:57:13.280 --> 1:57:17.400 make federal cases scarier and worse to go. Through, oftentimes 1:57:17.960 --> 1:57:20.840 now for a depressing thing that, is happening let's talk 1:57:20.880 --> 1:57:25.320 about prairieland the recent trial and guilty verdict that recently. 1:57:25.640 --> 1:57:28.720 Came down i'd love to hear how you all are 1:57:28.880 --> 1:57:32.840 thinking about this case and what it means for movements. 1:57:32.880 --> 1:57:37.520 GOING forward i think, right now the defense just filed post. 1:57:37.560 --> 1:57:40.160 Trial briefing i've looked at some, of IT and i 1:57:40.200 --> 1:57:43.400 think there are a lot of really, strong arguments, you 1:57:43.440 --> 1:57:48.800 know for setting aside, the verdict and, you know whether 1:57:48.920 --> 1:57:52.760 or not the judge agrees with me is of course 1:57:52.840 --> 1:57:56.600 not a, foregone conclusion but there are a lot of 1:57:56.640 --> 1:58:01.720 really strong, legal arguments and this really. Isn't over there's 1:58:01.800 --> 1:58:07.960 so much post trial and post, conviction relief so many 1:58:07.960 --> 1:58:11.000 appeals that remained to, be done and so much support 1:58:11.080 --> 1:58:13.680 that can, be offered and so much solidarity that can. 1:58:13.680 --> 1:58:16.160 BE offered i think that this case. 1:58:16.400 --> 1:58:21.280 Was unusual it was a departure from what we would 1:58:21.400 --> 1:58:26.640 typically see in that so many people got pulled into 1:58:26.680 --> 1:58:30.520 this prosecution under sort of a, conspiracy, theory right a 1:58:30.600 --> 1:58:33.320 theory that all of the people at what was a 1:58:33.360 --> 1:58:38.360 really quotitian sort of noise demo in front OF a 1:58:38.840 --> 1:58:45.400 ic detention facility somehow spontaneously became a conspiracy to do. 1:58:45.600 --> 1:58:50.840 SERIOUS violence i think this is a little bit like 1:58:51.560 --> 1:58:55.120 the federal government trying to take a second bite at 1:58:55.120 --> 1:58:58.120 the apple that they took a run At after trump's 1:58:58.160 --> 1:59:02.120 first inauguration when they tried to prosecute like almost three 1:59:02.200 --> 1:59:07.200 hundred people for conspiracy on the basis that they were 1:59:07.200 --> 1:59:11.880 all dressed in black block and in this environment politically 1:59:11.920 --> 1:59:14.960 and in that Jurisdiction, in texas it seems like that 1:59:15.040 --> 1:59:19.080 theory had legs in a way that it DIDN'T. In 1:59:19.600 --> 1:59:24.800 dc so one of the things that happened in the 1:59:24.880 --> 1:59:30.920 j twenty case was that the prosecution withheld a bunch of, 1:59:30.960 --> 1:59:37.520 exculpatory evidence and based ON some foya disclosures that a, 1:59:37.600 --> 1:59:41.400 journalist obtained it looks like actually a very similar thing 1:59:41.440 --> 1:59:45.720 may have happened Here With, prairie land where the prosecution 1:59:45.920 --> 1:59:49.600 may have withheld evidence that would be favorable to. 1:59:49.680 --> 1:59:52.440 The defense and That's called. 1:59:52.520 --> 1:59:57.120 Brady material based On A supreme court case about having 1:59:57.160 --> 2:00:01.800 to turn over information and evidence that would tend to 2:00:02.080 --> 2:00:06.640 undermine the prosecution or that would be favorable to someone facing. 2:00:06.680 --> 2:00:10.040 Criminal charges all of that kind, of information if it's 2:00:10.080 --> 2:00:13.200 in the custody or control of, law enforcement has to 2:00:13.240 --> 2:00:17.080 be disclosed to the defendants and to. Defense counsel and 2:00:17.160 --> 2:00:20.680 it appears that there is some material that would fit 2:00:20.760 --> 2:00:24.560 that bill that was not turned over to the prairieland 2:00:24.600 --> 2:00:28.400 defendants or. Their attorneys and so you know that as 2:00:28.480 --> 2:00:33.720 well as an extremely important, argument against, you know letting this, 2:00:33.840 --> 2:00:37.280 conviction stand and the, trial itself there were just a lot. 2:00:37.320 --> 2:00:42.280 Of irregularities not only was this an, unusual prosecution but 2:00:42.440 --> 2:00:48.080 it was characterized. By irregularities very, early on the judge 2:00:48.080 --> 2:00:51.160 declared a mistrial on the basis OF a t shirt 2:00:51.200 --> 2:00:54.720 that one of the defense attorneys was. Wearing right there 2:00:54.760 --> 2:00:58.160 seemed to be a lot of conflict among. The jurors 2:00:58.760 --> 2:01:03.640 there were all kinds of inconsistent statements among the witnesses for. 2:01:03.680 --> 2:01:03.800 The. 2:01:03.840 --> 2:01:07.280 Prosecution right so there's all kinds of things that happen 2:01:07.360 --> 2:01:10.560 during this trial that do give me a certain amount 2:01:10.560 --> 2:01:15.480 of Hope That prairie land is the exception and not. 2:01:15.640 --> 2:01:19.720 The rule, YOU know i think the government is, boundary 2:01:19.840 --> 2:01:24.240 Testing but i'm not convinced that they're going to find 2:01:25.000 --> 2:01:31.320 that this is an effective approach to prosecuting, protest although 2:01:31.360 --> 2:01:33.840 OF course i want to be, very clear it's been 2:01:34.120 --> 2:01:35.520 devastating for. 2:01:35.640 --> 2:01:39.720 THIS community i hear that there's some uncertainty about the 2:01:39.800 --> 2:01:43.680 long term impacts, Of this and with that, in mind 2:01:43.840 --> 2:01:46.360 is there anything any of you just want to add 2:01:46.400 --> 2:01:50.560 what you think movements should be paying attention to here. Going, 2:01:50.640 --> 2:01:56.080 forward also it's connection to the expansion of the fundamentally 2:01:56.160 --> 2:02:01.040 racist or on terror, legal regime and it's turn towards 2:02:01.080 --> 2:02:02.720 activist communities in. 2:02:02.840 --> 2:02:06.840 NEW ways i can jump in, And start i'm really 2:02:06.880 --> 2:02:09.600 glad you brought up the War on terror as part 2:02:09.600 --> 2:02:10.240 of the history. 2:02:10.280 --> 2:02:12.120 Of this and, YOU know I think i mentioned. 2:02:11.800 --> 2:02:15.080 Previously a lot of these tactics that, we see like we've, 2:02:15.080 --> 2:02:16.920 all said are, not new and much of it has 2:02:16.960 --> 2:02:19.680 been tested on communities, of color the way that war 2:02:19.720 --> 2:02:22.200 weapons are tested on the battlefield and then brought to 2:02:22.240 --> 2:02:26.160 our domestic police, forces here same thing, with, Tactics right 2:02:26.200 --> 2:02:29.160 and so the war on terror like primarily Against the 2:02:29.240 --> 2:02:32.160 muslim community In the muslim world a lot Of non 2:02:32.200 --> 2:02:36.040 arab Countries like Afghanistan, and pakistan, you know, of course 2:02:36.160 --> 2:02:38.360 is a, racist endeavor but it does sort of like 2:02:38.400 --> 2:02:40.160 give us a picture of the larger sort of like 2:02:40.240 --> 2:02:43.640 colonial project of what, you know what. We're FACING but 2:02:43.720 --> 2:02:45.520 i think there's also just a lot then that we 2:02:45.560 --> 2:02:48.800 can take from history and take to our movements and 2:02:48.920 --> 2:02:51.960 LEARNED from, i think while, it's DEVASTATING and i AGREE 2:02:52.000 --> 2:02:54.400 with moa Think the prairie, line conviction there's a lot 2:02:54.440 --> 2:02:58.240 of bases, for appeal including being prohibited from putting on 2:02:58.280 --> 2:03:01.600 a self defense argument or friends of, OTHERS argument i 2:03:01.640 --> 2:03:04.800 think we can learn a lot from the way that 2:03:05.080 --> 2:03:07.840 our movements were targeted in, this, way right where like, 2:03:08.240 --> 2:03:09.960 you know a lot of it was from text messages, 2:03:09.960 --> 2:03:12.080 in SIGNAL and i think it's just like it's also 2:03:12.080 --> 2:03:14.600 a really important thing To note while signals are very 2:03:14.600 --> 2:03:18.240 important app, to communicate it's, not, bulletproof right and it's 2:03:18.240 --> 2:03:20.360 only as secure as you, Make it and it is 2:03:20.400 --> 2:03:22.640 still something that's, in writing AND so I think i 2:03:22.680 --> 2:03:24.680 always try to remind, folks like if you can open 2:03:24.720 --> 2:03:27.440 your phone right now and you can see your, signal 2:03:27.480 --> 2:03:30.600 messages someone else, can't. Do RIGHT so i think a 2:03:30.600 --> 2:03:32.800 lot of people are under the impression that is. Completely 2:03:32.800 --> 2:03:36.160 BULLETPROOF and i think it's also calls the, question, of like, 2:03:37.040 --> 2:03:39.800 you know how, we organize and also like does everything 2:03:39.840 --> 2:03:40.800 we do need to. 2:03:40.720 --> 2:03:41.320 Go and text? 2:03:41.400 --> 2:03:43.560 Or writing, you know is there more value to like 2:03:43.600 --> 2:03:45.600 actually talking, with people because a lot of things that 2:03:45.600 --> 2:03:48.560 were SAID casually i think in writing look much worse 2:03:48.600 --> 2:03:50.400 and much more serious than if you would just have 2:03:50.440 --> 2:03:54.400 a conversation talking, ideas through which again is an elder 2:03:54.560 --> 2:03:56.080 idea in the nineties and we didn't have. 2:03:56.760 --> 2:04:00.040 CELL phones i want to kind of piggyback on some 2:04:00.120 --> 2:04:04.560 thing you started, to say which is you said, these 2:04:04.800 --> 2:04:07.720 tactics these strategies have been tested on communities, of COLOR 2:04:08.640 --> 2:04:12.520 and i think the significance of, that, statement like we 2:04:12.640 --> 2:04:16.760 can't overestimate how important it is to, understand that and, 2:04:17.080 --> 2:04:20.040 you know you can watch it happening in. REAL time, 2:04:20.400 --> 2:04:22.960 i mean obviously we've seen this kind of state repression 2:04:23.200 --> 2:04:27.880 right since the days of, like, abolitionists right but we 2:04:28.000 --> 2:04:33.360 saw it really becoming very salient During the nixon administration, 2:04:34.120 --> 2:04:37.960 and thereafter and, you Know The Black panther Party And 2:04:38.000 --> 2:04:41.960 Black liberation army were subjected. To this black communities were 2:04:42.000 --> 2:04:45.440 then subjected, to This And puerto rican independence communities were subjected, 2:04:45.480 --> 2:04:47.920 to this and you can see it all the way through, 2:04:47.960 --> 2:04:51.920 the eighties even with like the so called, gang legislation 2:04:52.160 --> 2:04:53.320 right targeting of quote. 2:04:53.360 --> 2:04:57.000 Gang activity when you say these communities have been subjected, 2:04:57.040 --> 2:04:58.920 to this what do? You mean what's? 2:04:58.960 --> 2:05:04.240 The, this sorry have been subjected to have been targeted 2:05:04.960 --> 2:05:12.800 and surveiled and criminalized by the state for what we 2:05:12.840 --> 2:05:20.120 would understand To Be first amendment, protected, identities, beliefs associations, and, 2:05:20.240 --> 2:05:25.960 Activities right and so people have been targeted for surveillance 2:05:26.160 --> 2:05:29.960 and criminalization on the basis of their, political beliefs on 2:05:30.040 --> 2:05:35.920 the basis of their associations, and activities in a way 2:05:36.080 --> 2:05:42.480 that we now see being recuperated against more explicitly political. 2:05:43.480 --> 2:05:49.160 Protest movements and we saw this During The no dapple 2:05:49.240 --> 2:05:52.120 Movement At, standing rock we saw the revival of a 2:05:52.160 --> 2:05:53.600 federal charge called. 2:05:53.720 --> 2:05:55.120 CIVIL disorder i. 2:05:55.120 --> 2:05:57.080 Think the last time it had been used had been 2:05:57.160 --> 2:06:00.880 during the Standoff at wounded me in nineteen. 2:06:00.920 --> 2:06:02.320 Seventy, four right. 2:06:02.280 --> 2:06:06.560 It was like a federal charge that seems like it 2:06:06.640 --> 2:06:13.200 was only used against people struggling for. Indigenous sovereignty and 2:06:13.240 --> 2:06:16.160 then we saw it being used again During the floyd 2:06:16.240 --> 2:06:18.880 uprisings in, twenty twenty and that was the first time 2:06:18.920 --> 2:06:22.520 we saw it really being used against people who were 2:06:22.600 --> 2:06:25.640 not explicitly involved in struggles for. 2:06:25.680 --> 2:06:29.080 Indigenous sovereignty to give like, an example, you know in 2:06:29.160 --> 2:06:31.680 terms of like what strategies are tested On the muslim 2:06:31.880 --> 2:06:34.960 community or communities. Of color the case that a lot 2:06:35.040 --> 2:06:37.520 of us within the movement at least are still haunted 2:06:37.560 --> 2:06:40.600 by is Against The Holy land foundation And The Holy, land, 2:06:40.640 --> 2:06:44.200 Five right and it's shocking now to realize how many 2:06:44.280 --> 2:06:47.600 people outside of our circles don't actually really know about 2:06:47.600 --> 2:06:50.760 that case or even like what material. SUPPORT is i 2:06:50.800 --> 2:06:53.480 think only when it became not much bigger and being 2:06:53.560 --> 2:06:56.640 weaponized in more creative ways are people sort. 2:06:56.640 --> 2:06:59.560 Of realizing but, you know back for back. 2:06:59.360 --> 2:07:01.480 In the day When The Holy land foundation and founders 2:07:01.480 --> 2:07:05.080 were targeted and, then convicted and their convictions were upheld 2:07:05.600 --> 2:07:08.840 for just raising money for families in. A gaza it 2:07:08.960 --> 2:07:13.440 was so devastating and crushing to communities, into organizing but 2:07:13.520 --> 2:07:16.400 it really DIDN'T get i think the broad attention that it, 2:07:16.400 --> 2:07:18.560 should have right or this other targeting of like we're 2:07:18.600 --> 2:07:21.680 using informants In the muslim community just going back, through 2:07:21.720 --> 2:07:24.520 HISTORY and i think we can learn from. Them NOW but, 2:07:24.600 --> 2:07:27.720 i think, you know if we had had more attention 2:07:27.840 --> 2:07:30.480 on those cases than what, you know communities of color were, 2:07:30.480 --> 2:07:32.920 GOING through i think there's a lot we can learn 2:07:32.960 --> 2:07:36.720 from or could have organized. Stronger against having now seen 2:07:37.120 --> 2:07:38.560 what is doing to communities, OF. 2:07:38.560 --> 2:07:41.200 Color i think if there's a lesson for us to 2:07:41.280 --> 2:07:43.480 learn from this is that, you know post nine, to 2:07:43.520 --> 2:07:47.760 eleven there was this massive Persecution of muslim communities and 2:07:47.800 --> 2:07:50.640 we really saw this apparatus of the material support for 2:07:50.720 --> 2:07:53.920 terrorism being used against individuals and as, you say being 2:07:53.960 --> 2:07:57.400 not often in isolation. Without support and part of that's 2:07:57.440 --> 2:08:00.920 because when you get charged with material support of, you 2:08:00.960 --> 2:08:05.520 know not only are you facing massive criminal, like sentencing 2:08:06.160 --> 2:08:09.440 but you know your organization is being, Taken down you're 2:08:09.440 --> 2:08:12.520 getting debateked you cannot you know be able to hold, 2:08:12.600 --> 2:08:15.960 financial funds and what happens is people don't want to 2:08:15.960 --> 2:08:21.000 get ensnared in that. Criminal prosecution that often people don't 2:08:21.000 --> 2:08:24.200 come out and make those. Solidarity statements you become. Essentially 2:08:24.280 --> 2:08:28.120 RADIOACTIVE and, i think, you Know what i'm hopeful is 2:08:28.160 --> 2:08:32.720 that we can find new ways to resist this material 2:08:32.760 --> 2:08:36.040 support for, terrorism apparatus which is being wielded in WAYS 2:08:36.080 --> 2:08:39.160 that i think are unjust and unfair and illegal. 2:08:39.240 --> 2:08:40.800 And WRONG and i hope. 2:08:40.680 --> 2:08:42.880 There's ways that we can think about how we're going to, 2:08:42.960 --> 2:08:46.040 counter that whether it's In The, Prairie land texas case 2:08:46.120 --> 2:08:48.400 or in other cases. AS well i think we need 2:08:48.400 --> 2:08:50.400 to get back to the roots of, that law and 2:08:50.440 --> 2:08:53.240 we need to think about really who's, it serving who's, 2:08:53.280 --> 2:08:56.000 it protecting and who is, it destroying so that we 2:08:56.040 --> 2:08:57.880 can really rectify the harms that have come. 2:08:57.880 --> 2:08:58.320 From it. 2:09:09.280 --> 2:09:13.000 Material support for terrorism chargers are not the only uncommon 2:09:13.080 --> 2:09:17.280 charges for seeing being brought against anti ice protesters Here. 2:09:17.280 --> 2:09:20.440 In minneapolis we've also seen the use Of The face 2:09:20.520 --> 2:09:25.800 act and federal threat and cyber. Stocking charges just, to 2:09:25.920 --> 2:09:29.440 note the use Of The face act is Specifically Against 2:09:29.520 --> 2:09:33.000 Black lives matter protesters here who staged a protest in, 2:09:33.520 --> 2:09:36.080 a CHURCH and i don't think expected to have this 2:09:36.880 --> 2:09:40.560 random act that nobody knew existed come out and now 2:09:40.560 --> 2:09:46.000 they're facing super. Serious charges i'd love just for listeners 2:09:46.000 --> 2:09:48.560 to understand a little bit what these. Charges are if 2:09:48.560 --> 2:09:51.240 there's other unusual charges you've seen around, the country what 2:09:51.280 --> 2:09:54.200 do people actually need to understand? About them people who 2:09:54.240 --> 2:09:57.440 are going out. To protest how much is it important 2:09:57.480 --> 2:10:00.560 to know about these different things that can. 2:10:00.600 --> 2:10:02.280 Pop up So The. 2:10:02.280 --> 2:10:05.520 Face act is a piece of legislation that initially was 2:10:06.120 --> 2:10:12.280 being pushed for by reproductive, justice groups and it was 2:10:12.280 --> 2:10:17.760 supposed to criminalize people interfering with folks who were attempting 2:10:17.760 --> 2:10:22.560 to access reproductive health care because at the time that 2:10:23.280 --> 2:10:28.160 it was being, lobbied for there was a pretty active, 2:10:29.040 --> 2:10:34.120 pro life, you know anti choice movement that was physically 2:10:35.080 --> 2:10:39.440 making it difficult for people who are seeking reproductive healthcare 2:10:39.720 --> 2:10:47.000 to gain access. To clinics and at, the time people 2:10:47.760 --> 2:10:52.880 who work in criminal defense and who work with criminalized populations, Were, 2:10:52.960 --> 2:10:57.680 like hey this legislation is going to be mobilized against 2:10:58.040 --> 2:11:02.840 other kinds, of protesters and it's probably going to be 2:11:02.960 --> 2:11:08.200 primarily dangerous to people who are perceived as antagonistic to, State. 2:11:07.960 --> 2:11:10.840 Interests and what do? 2:11:10.920 --> 2:11:14.840 You know that is what has happened because one of, 2:11:14.880 --> 2:11:17.640 the things one of the concessions that was made in 2:11:17.880 --> 2:11:20.920 order to get that piece of, legislation passed, was that 2:11:21.000 --> 2:11:26.520 in addition to criminalizing obstructing access to reproductive, health clinics 2:11:27.040 --> 2:11:33.440 it also criminalized obstructing access to so called places of 2:11:33.440 --> 2:11:38.920 worship for specifically people who are attempting to access those 2:11:39.160 --> 2:11:45.560 places in order to Engage In first amendment protected. Religious 2:11:46.040 --> 2:11:50.600 expression so now one of the things we're seeing is 2:11:51.480 --> 2:11:57.200 people using their churches or their synagogues to do things 2:11:57.360 --> 2:12:03.440 like have political meetings that are not particularly, religious meetings 2:12:04.280 --> 2:12:08.680 or to do things like sell real Estate in palestine 2:12:08.800 --> 2:12:11.280 to which they do not have title and cannot. 2:12:11.440 --> 2:12:14.040 Lawfully sell and then when. 2:12:13.880 --> 2:12:19.360 People show up to protest, those activities the federal government 2:12:20.120 --> 2:12:23.480 tries to charge them with violations Of The face act. 2:12:24.200 --> 2:12:28.480 In like the. Simplest way what do people need? To, 2:12:28.560 --> 2:12:31.440 know like there's one outcome here that, everyone's like oh, 2:12:31.440 --> 2:12:33.920 MY god i didn't know the protesting in a church 2:12:33.960 --> 2:12:36.440 could get me federal charges for like handing out some 2:12:36.440 --> 2:12:39.400 flyers and using. A megaphone what ELSE don't? I know about, 2:12:39.440 --> 2:12:42.080 other risks the random acts that can. Come up how 2:12:42.120 --> 2:12:45.040 do you talk to people about that who are thinking about. Taking, 2:12:45.080 --> 2:12:46.360 ACTION yeah. 2:12:46.240 --> 2:12:49.040 I think that that's, the again the changing landscape here 2:12:49.240 --> 2:12:52.440 and seeing the exponential rise of. FEDERAL charges i think 2:12:52.480 --> 2:12:55.800 that when organizers are thinking about the actions, THEY'RE pursuing 2:12:56.360 --> 2:12:58.760 i think they need to talk to attorneys and legal 2:12:58.800 --> 2:13:01.680 workers and others who have both an understanding of what 2:13:01.720 --> 2:13:04.000 their local laws and state, laws are but what the 2:13:04.000 --> 2:13:07.040 federal laws are. As well, AND again i think that's 2:13:07.080 --> 2:13:08.200 just a different changing of. 2:13:08.200 --> 2:13:10.880 THE landscape i do want, to say. 2:13:10.600 --> 2:13:13.160 You know there's a lot of important organizing that it 2:13:13.280 --> 2:13:17.440 has happened in churches and synagogues, and TEMPLES and i 2:13:17.480 --> 2:13:20.440 don't want to, Discount THAT but i do also want 2:13:20.440 --> 2:13:24.560 TO say i think again we're seeing a misuse of, 2:13:24.600 --> 2:13:25.520 this law. 2:13:25.760 --> 2:13:27.560 Particularly The, face act and, it's very. 2:13:27.720 --> 2:13:31.160 Very scary but, YOU know i think that there are 2:13:31.200 --> 2:13:36.160 some really incredible lawyers and Organizers in MINNESOTA who i 2:13:36.160 --> 2:13:38.240 think are fears and who are going to fight this to, 2:13:38.320 --> 2:13:41.800 the END and i have hoped that they will come. Out, 2:13:41.880 --> 2:13:43.840 unscathed YEAH. 2:13:43.520 --> 2:13:47.600 And i do want to clarify it isn't just protesting at. 2:13:47.600 --> 2:13:50.680 A church they have to be able to allege that 2:13:50.800 --> 2:13:54.400 people were by force or threat, of force or by, 2:13:54.440 --> 2:14:00.520 physical obstruction, intentionally, injuring intimidating in interfear with people who 2:14:00.520 --> 2:14:04.400 are trying to get healthcare or people who are trying. 2:14:04.440 --> 2:14:08.880 To worship so it isn't simply having a protest at 2:14:08.960 --> 2:14:14.120 a place. Of worship That Remains first amendment. PROTECTED behavior 2:14:14.520 --> 2:14:16.320 i think in addition With The, face act it has a. 2:14:16.360 --> 2:14:20.120 Civil component so again like, material support it also has a, 2:14:20.160 --> 2:14:23.800 civil component and many people are getting civilly sued and 2:14:23.880 --> 2:14:26.320 so a lot Of these zionist groups have also brought 2:14:26.720 --> 2:14:29.880 suits based On The face act for people protesting the 2:14:29.880 --> 2:14:33.520 illegal Sale of palestinian land inside a synagogue and that's 2:14:33.880 --> 2:14:37.200 a breach international law and so many. Other crimes and 2:14:37.280 --> 2:14:40.240 just also to think of just the disgusting use of, 2:14:40.240 --> 2:14:41.959 this law and you think of sort of the historical 2:14:42.000 --> 2:14:45.320 targeting of black churches and like still to, this day 2:14:45.520 --> 2:14:49.040 like it's just such a slap in. The face, but 2:14:49.400 --> 2:14:52.560 REGARDLESS but i think also alive to your, question, about 2:14:53.000 --> 2:14:54.840 yeah like a lot of this can catch people off 2:14:54.880 --> 2:14:56.800 CARD like i didn't what, YOU know i, didn't know 2:14:56.840 --> 2:14:59.040 and even, you know even if, they know they really, 2:14:59.120 --> 2:15:02.160 can't prove, you know access that they might still try 2:15:02.200 --> 2:15:04.640 to either sue you or. PROSECUTE you i think the 2:15:04.720 --> 2:15:06.640 thing is like none of us are ever going to 2:15:06.680 --> 2:15:08.560 know all the laws that are on the books and 2:15:08.640 --> 2:15:11.520 the way that they might creatively try to. Use, them so, 2:15:11.960 --> 2:15:14.200 YOU know i don't want people to get paralynes into 2:15:14.240 --> 2:15:16.879 not doing anything because it's, it is, you. Know scary 2:15:16.920 --> 2:15:19.320 there's just like you, don't know, you know what what 2:15:19.400 --> 2:15:21.000 laws are out there that can, be used you know 2:15:21.080 --> 2:15:22.920 in some way now you know a new way. Against 2:15:23.000 --> 2:15:25.600 YOU but i Think what joey and mo both have 2:15:25.640 --> 2:15:29.680 said is right about connecting to lawyers and, legal workers 2:15:30.360 --> 2:15:33.320 just being tight on, our organizing knowing what our, rights 2:15:33.360 --> 2:15:34.560 are and knowing when you what to. 2:15:34.520 --> 2:15:36.640 Do when you encounter, law enforcement which is nothing and. 2:15:36.680 --> 2:15:39.480 Say nothing, You know like all OF that i think is, 2:15:39.520 --> 2:15:42.680 like hopefully like universally at least like minimizes the harm 2:15:43.000 --> 2:15:43.600 that can happen. 2:15:43.640 --> 2:15:45.880 To you it's, not bulletproof right as, we know it's 2:15:45.920 --> 2:15:46.320 not meant. 2:15:46.360 --> 2:15:49.240 To BE but, i, think like, YOU know i don't 2:15:49.240 --> 2:15:51.040 want folks to like be like AND now i DON'T, 2:15:51.040 --> 2:15:53.160 know x like this other random thing, you know could 2:15:53.200 --> 2:15:56.400 be brought, against me and that may happen and continue, 2:15:56.400 --> 2:15:58.760 to happen but that's what we, all do right like 2:15:58.800 --> 2:16:00.520 sort of like with this message, of hope is that 2:16:00.600 --> 2:16:02.480 what we do is, we fight and like we, have 2:16:02.600 --> 2:16:05.680 fought like, State repression like our answers, have thought, State 2:16:05.720 --> 2:16:07.920 repression we're not going. To stop they're going to, keep 2:16:07.960 --> 2:16:11.080 adapting and so. Are we this resistance is not going, 2:16:11.120 --> 2:16:13.160 to stop even if we have to figure out a 2:16:13.160 --> 2:16:14.640 new way to resist based on what. 2:16:14.720 --> 2:16:18.320 Comes next to ask, you all as a final question 2:16:19.000 --> 2:16:23.880 with your repression forecasting hats on anything you want to 2:16:23.920 --> 2:16:27.800 add about how movements can prepare to meet this repression 2:16:27.800 --> 2:16:29.920 that is already happening and that which is. 2:16:29.960 --> 2:16:33.680 TO come i can't see, the FUTURE as i tell 2:16:33.720 --> 2:16:37.360 my clients, EVERY day i can't see. 2:16:37.360 --> 2:16:39.960 THE future i am but, a lawyer not. 2:16:40.000 --> 2:16:43.680 A WIZARD what i can tell you is we know 2:16:43.959 --> 2:16:48.280 a lot about what the state has done in, the 2:16:48.320 --> 2:16:52.920 past and we have a lot of good models to. 2:16:53.040 --> 2:16:58.640 Look to we have a rich ancestry of resistance and of, 2:16:58.720 --> 2:17:02.240 movement lawyering of movement lawyers who know how to work 2:17:02.560 --> 2:17:07.920 in community with people who are doing the. Heavy lifting 2:17:09.320 --> 2:17:14.160 we have made it this Far as, Bina said we're 2:17:14.200 --> 2:17:18.040 just going to continue. To FIGHT and i do hold 2:17:18.040 --> 2:17:21.760 out a lot, of hope NOT because i have any 2:17:21.959 --> 2:17:25.959 faith in the law itself or believe that justice is 2:17:26.040 --> 2:17:29.879 on the table in, our courts but because we are 2:17:29.959 --> 2:17:36.800 actually really good, at solidarity and because we have over 2:17:36.879 --> 2:17:40.440 a century of evidence that solidarity is not just good for, 2:17:40.560 --> 2:17:42.280 our communities it's. 2:17:42.480 --> 2:17:45.720 Legally effective. That's it don't talk. 2:17:45.760 --> 2:17:49.040 TO cops i might go with the cheesy answer, ROUND 2:17:49.720 --> 2:17:52.800 that i think what communities and movements can do to 2:17:52.840 --> 2:17:56.560 prepare is a lot, of this right is like coming together, 2:17:56.680 --> 2:18:00.640 and strategizing especially amongst, the lawyers so uplifting what mo 2:18:00.800 --> 2:18:03.840 said is like showing solidarity with communities and lawyers. 2:18:03.840 --> 2:18:06.800 Showing UP but i, think also And like Joey. 2:18:06.560 --> 2:18:08.760 And moly really model this for me as well as 2:18:09.080 --> 2:18:11.879 lawyers showing up with each other and like, working together 2:18:11.920 --> 2:18:14.400 because it is a lonely fight a lot of times 2:18:14.400 --> 2:18:16.879 being a lawyer when you're not in a circle of 2:18:16.920 --> 2:18:20.400 solidarity or folks of radical politics or who like also 2:18:20.480 --> 2:18:23.920 believe in including each other, in fighting, you know and doing, 2:18:23.920 --> 2:18:26.720 this work and that is always going to be a, 2:18:26.760 --> 2:18:29.080 losing fight right if you're doing it. By yourself you're 2:18:29.080 --> 2:18:31.440 not doing it with each other and with the communities 2:18:31.480 --> 2:18:34.400 and with other. Radical lawyers that's not what, we, Do 2:18:34.520 --> 2:18:36.480 right that's also like not the point of. This work 2:18:36.680 --> 2:18:38.440 it's like one sole lawyer to fight it. 2:18:38.480 --> 2:18:39.119 And win it's. 2:18:38.959 --> 2:18:41.640 About like us doing, it collectively and that's the way that. 2:18:41.680 --> 2:18:45.080 We win and, you know just uplifting like, You three 2:18:45.480 --> 2:18:48.520 like just even having this Conversation and Joey and mo 2:18:48.720 --> 2:18:51.080 for all the work that you do and the work 2:18:51.080 --> 2:18:53.400 that you. Do inclusively, you know that like gives me 2:18:53.440 --> 2:18:55.080 HOPE because I know i've had like many. 2:18:55.320 --> 2:18:57.199 Every, day look i just SIT and i feel. Like alone, 2:18:57.240 --> 2:18:57.560 i'm like. 2:18:57.520 --> 2:19:00.600 Oh, My GOD like i have to first with the method. 2:19:00.640 --> 2:19:02.320 OF hope i have to find some way to. Keep 2:19:02.320 --> 2:19:05.760 going it's, really hard And sometimes i'm JUST like i. 2:19:05.800 --> 2:19:08.840 Don't know and then and then we have these conversations 2:19:08.879 --> 2:19:10.959 and like, all, right yeah like we have those moments 2:19:11.000 --> 2:19:13.840 we get, you know like we, feel defeated but like 2:19:14.440 --> 2:19:16.280 we have, each other, you know and like our movements 2:19:16.320 --> 2:19:18.800 didn't come, this far, you know our ancestors didn't come 2:19:18.840 --> 2:19:20.120 this far for us to. 2:19:20.120 --> 2:19:21.760 Give, Up, NOW yeah. 2:19:21.840 --> 2:19:24.800 I think i would just echo What both bina and mo. 2:19:25.000 --> 2:19:29.279 HAVE said, i, mean, obviously black indigenous and other communities 2:19:29.280 --> 2:19:34.280 of color have faced fascism and authoritarianism before and have resisted. 2:19:34.360 --> 2:19:37.440 And survived this is not the first time in this 2:19:37.520 --> 2:19:39.680 country we've, seen this and it's likely not. 2:19:39.560 --> 2:19:39.920 Going to be. 2:19:39.959 --> 2:19:43.680 The LAST but i, THINK, again i, YOU know i would, 2:19:43.720 --> 2:19:47.000 say that, you Know As marian, kama says, you know 2:19:47.440 --> 2:19:50.480 hope is, a discipline and we have to keep pouring 2:19:50.520 --> 2:19:51.920 into hope and we can't have to. 2:19:52.000 --> 2:19:54.840 Keep RESISTING so i do have a lot. 2:19:54.720 --> 2:19:56.440 Of HOPE and I and I and i feel like 2:19:57.280 --> 2:19:59.959 AGAIN like i want to look at what the organiz 2:20:00.440 --> 2:20:02.879 have done and how far, we've come even in terms 2:20:02.920 --> 2:20:03.080 of this. 2:20:03.280 --> 2:20:05.600 Latest administration, YOU. 2:20:05.560 --> 2:20:09.520 Know i would say, last year after the onset of, 2:20:09.560 --> 2:20:12.720 THIS administration i don't think we were seeing a lot, 2:20:12.760 --> 2:20:16.560 of resistance not a lot of, Public resistance and instead 2:20:16.600 --> 2:20:19.760 we were seeing law firms cave and deciding to create 2:20:19.800 --> 2:20:23.720 agreements with. The administration we are seeing educational, institutions come, 2:20:23.879 --> 2:20:25.480 you know cave and come up with a lot. Of 2:20:25.640 --> 2:20:28.080 agreements but what we did see is we saw the. 2:20:28.120 --> 2:20:31.560 People resisting and that HAPPENED in la and that Happened, 2:20:31.560 --> 2:20:35.000 in chicago and that certainly Happened in Minneapolis And saint Paul. 2:20:35.120 --> 2:20:38.200 And MINNESOTA so i, take HEART and i think what 2:20:38.240 --> 2:20:40.959 we need to continue to think about doing is how 2:20:41.040 --> 2:20:44.440 people are going to do the mutual aid work and the. 2:20:44.480 --> 2:20:46.840 CARE work i think we need to continue to do 2:20:46.920 --> 2:20:49.360 the know your rights and know your. Risks work. 2:20:49.400 --> 2:20:52.080 THAT'S essential i think a big thing we need to 2:20:52.120 --> 2:20:55.039 continue to think about Is The insurrection act and getting 2:20:55.080 --> 2:20:58.920 information out About The, insurrection act which may be invoked 2:20:58.959 --> 2:21:01.520 prior to. This election, YOU know i think that the 2:21:01.600 --> 2:21:05.640 ongoing work that people have been, doing again it's about 2:21:05.640 --> 2:21:07.800 the people and the power of the people that have 2:21:07.840 --> 2:21:10.880 gotten us. This far but even if we look at, 2:21:11.040 --> 2:21:13.760 what happened, you know this past week and eight million 2:21:13.800 --> 2:21:17.760 people coming out to protest, and resist those numbers didn't 2:21:17.800 --> 2:21:19.400 exist over a, Year ago. 2:21:19.879 --> 2:21:21.680 AND so i feel like the resistance. 2:21:21.760 --> 2:21:27.879 Is happening people are coming together and despite, INSTITUTIONAL failures 2:21:28.520 --> 2:21:32.000 i think the movement has, grown SIGNIFICANTLY and i think 2:21:32.320 --> 2:21:34.080 we have to even look at the last year and 2:21:34.120 --> 2:21:36.600 a half to see how far. We've come AND so 2:21:36.720 --> 2:21:39.280 i have hope that we'll go, even FURTHER and i 2:21:39.320 --> 2:21:42.959 hope that we're not returning to the. Status quo and 2:21:43.000 --> 2:21:46.480 in fact we are actually dreaming the world we want to, 2:21:46.560 --> 2:21:48.879 live in and that we are going to fight for 2:21:48.959 --> 2:21:51.640 the world we want to, live in and that this 2:21:51.800 --> 2:21:54.720 is an opportunity for us to let things go and 2:21:54.800 --> 2:21:55.760 for us to create A. 2:21:55.800 --> 2:22:01.040 New well thank you all for, those hopeful hope full forecasting. 2:22:01.480 --> 2:22:05.800 Advice answers you don't always get, that twist which is, 2:22:05.840 --> 2:22:09.640 really LOVELY and i feel like it's been something that's 2:22:09.680 --> 2:22:13.680 on my mind a lot Here. In minnesota that's sometimes 2:22:14.040 --> 2:22:17.199 when things are the worst and you're of the closest 2:22:17.200 --> 2:22:20.240 to violence. And terror it's also when you see how 2:22:20.280 --> 2:22:22.920 powerful people are and how powerful resistance. 2:22:22.959 --> 2:22:25.840 CAN be, i mean these are long fights and these are. Long, 2:22:25.879 --> 2:22:28.439 HAULS yeah i think that's. 2:22:28.200 --> 2:22:32.200 Kind of the, lesson is, you know not to get 2:22:32.200 --> 2:22:36.360 all peer k, a vote but you are not obligated 2:22:36.400 --> 2:22:38.119 to finish. 2:22:37.840 --> 2:22:40.160 The work but neither are you free to. Abandon it 2:22:40.280 --> 2:22:41.160 like these are. 2:22:41.480 --> 2:22:46.240 Long, fights yeah they are fights that we don't. Win 2:22:46.440 --> 2:22:49.800 alone it's not possible or desirable to win these. 2:22:49.840 --> 2:22:51.280 Fights, Alone right. 2:22:51.720 --> 2:22:57.600 THEY'RE generational i mean they last. Multiple generations so you 2:22:57.600 --> 2:23:01.599 know this like the ever receding horizon of. Real, democracy 2:23:01.720 --> 2:23:07.800 right there's no forecast that could even be adequate because 2:23:07.840 --> 2:23:10.600 it's gonna go on for. So LONG but i think 2:23:10.600 --> 2:23:13.440 the advice is always, the, same right just don't. 2:23:13.480 --> 2:23:19.360 Toxic, cups yeah what she said is generally and you're 2:23:19.360 --> 2:23:20.600 not free to just abandon. 2:23:20.680 --> 2:23:21.480 The work mom IS. 2:23:21.600 --> 2:23:23.840 Like i would like write that on a wall SOMEWHERE 2:23:23.920 --> 2:23:26.160 because i think things people jump, In right it's, like okay, 2:23:26.200 --> 2:23:28.680 this hot let's. Do it but like once it's not 2:23:28.760 --> 2:23:30.720 a hot, new thing, you know people kind of move 2:23:30.760 --> 2:23:32.680 on to the next say it's, like, No none that's 2:23:32.680 --> 2:23:34.440 when we need folks to stick in it and. You 2:23:34.480 --> 2:23:37.359 CAN'T and i think that's just a really important, like lesson. 2:23:37.160 --> 2:23:37.680 Send me your. 2:23:37.680 --> 2:23:40.360 Mailing address i'm gonna send You a i'm gonna send you. 2:23:40.320 --> 2:23:43.440 A poster or can you? CROCHET it i know you. 2:23:43.480 --> 2:23:47.200 Can crochet you gotta with the flowers. And, everything yeah 2:23:47.320 --> 2:23:49.240 thank you all. So much you guys. 2:23:49.280 --> 2:23:51.480 ARE awesome i love. You guys it's. 2:23:51.640 --> 2:23:53.360 SO great i feel like got a, Therapy session, LIKE 2:23:53.360 --> 2:23:54.600 oh i feel so much, better off. 2:23:54.440 --> 2:23:56.640 But like what, we're doing like where, we are AND 2:23:56.800 --> 2:23:57.240 like i. 2:23:57.280 --> 2:23:58.000 HAVE hope. 2:23:59.400 --> 2:24:00.400 I med a cake one of. 2:24:00.440 --> 2:24:03.119 You found thank you for listening to Outlaw on it could. 2:24:03.160 --> 2:24:05.640 Happen here if you liked, the episode check out The 2:24:05.680 --> 2:24:09.480 show outlaw wherever you get your podcasts, and, rate review 2:24:09.600 --> 2:24:13.120 And follow outlaw Pod on Instagram And blue sky for anti, 2:24:13.200 --> 2:24:16.640 repression updates news and stories that you might want. To 2:24:16.680 --> 2:24:19.560 know From, the North, from south. 2:24:20.000 --> 2:24:21.600 From everywhere. 2:24:36.080 --> 2:24:39.640 This is It could. Happen Here, executive disorder our weekly 2:24:39.680 --> 2:24:42.280 newscast covering what's happening In The, white house the, crumbling 2:24:42.320 --> 2:24:43.360 world and what it means. 2:24:43.360 --> 2:24:44.400 For You I'm. 2:24:44.200 --> 2:24:47.360 Garrison davis today and Joined By, James Stout, mia Wong And. 2:24:47.560 --> 2:24:51.600 Robert evans this episode recovering the Week of may Twentieth 2:24:51.640 --> 2:24:57.080 to may. Twenty, seventh james some small widow idy bitty 2:24:57.160 --> 2:24:57.959 news items, To. 2:24:57.879 --> 2:25:01.360 Start yeah talk about the, little things and then we 2:25:01.520 --> 2:25:05.279 talk about some things in. More Detail the trump administration 2:25:05.360 --> 2:25:08.879 has lifted a cap on refugee admissions by. Ten thousand 2:25:09.640 --> 2:25:12.480 this sounds like good news you realize it is to 2:25:12.520 --> 2:25:16.560 allow More White south africans to seek refuge In The 2:25:16.640 --> 2:25:17.320 united States. 2:25:17.320 --> 2:25:17.920 Of america. 2:25:18.800 --> 2:25:23.280 Great stuff hey. THIS country i Found The federal. Register 2:25:23.360 --> 2:25:25.280 thing it's still, the documents still it, up THERE but 2:25:25.320 --> 2:25:27.280 i will link to the place where the document will 2:25:27.280 --> 2:25:27.760 probably Be. 2:25:28.520 --> 2:25:29.480 The dutch will never. 2:25:29.520 --> 2:25:34.680 Be Forgiven The united states has also continued its campaign 2:25:34.720 --> 2:25:40.320 of strikes In. The pacific the most recent one left 2:25:40.400 --> 2:25:42.800 two survivors along with one man who. 2:25:42.879 --> 2:25:43.800 Has Killed. 2:25:45.120 --> 2:25:47.240 So there's guardian published a piece a while ago about 2:25:47.240 --> 2:25:51.400 what happened to some survivors who were taken BY the us. 2:25:51.480 --> 2:25:54.800 Military BOAT the us military boarded, their vessel stole their food, 2:25:54.800 --> 2:25:57.680 and beer and then Transports Them, twelve salvador where they 2:25:57.680 --> 2:26:01.600 were questioned and then released to immigration orites and eventually. Sent, 2:26:01.640 --> 2:26:04.840 HOME basically i guess effectively deported for Illegally Entering el 2:26:04.959 --> 2:26:09.480 salvador after they were brought there BY the us By The. United, 2:26:09.560 --> 2:26:13.720 states yeah AFTER the. Us, bomber yeah so we don't 2:26:13.720 --> 2:26:15.640 know what happened to these. TWO people I Guess coast 2:26:15.640 --> 2:26:19.120 guide activated so to rescue after. The strike so hopefully they. 2:26:19.200 --> 2:26:22.640 Found them it's better than them drowning. Out There their 2:26:22.640 --> 2:26:27.240 Department Of homeland security is auto extending the temporary protected Status, 2:26:27.240 --> 2:26:31.200 for lebanon not because they affirmatively chose to, do so 2:26:31.240 --> 2:26:33.800 but because they failed to renewer terminate it, in time so. 2:26:34.000 --> 2:26:39.680 Auto Extended Mark, wayne MULLIN the, dhs secretary has claimed 2:26:39.680 --> 2:26:41.760 That the Department of Home and security is drawing up 2:26:41.760 --> 2:26:46.400 plans to not process incoming international flights in. Sanctuary. 2:26:46.440 --> 2:26:50.800 Cities, what yeah this is ahead Of The, world, Cup, 2:26:50.959 --> 2:26:52.279 right yes. 2:26:52.400 --> 2:26:53.240 So let's play a. 2:26:53.240 --> 2:26:57.440 Little clip we are currently which were not, initiate yet 2:26:57.440 --> 2:27:00.000 but we're currently drawing up plans, to, say listen these 2:27:00.080 --> 2:27:05.800 sanctuary cities where the local radical left democrats aren't allowing 2:27:05.879 --> 2:27:09.040 us to do our job and enforce, federal laws then 2:27:09.080 --> 2:27:13.080 we shouldn't be processing international flights into their into their. 2:27:13.080 --> 2:27:16.439 Cities either because they don't want us to, enforce immigration 2:27:17.120 --> 2:27:19.800 but they want us to process immigration at. Their facilities 2:27:19.959 --> 2:27:21.240 nothing about that makes sense. 2:27:21.280 --> 2:27:24.760 To me the line, HE'S drawing i GUESS what i 2:27:24.760 --> 2:27:27.640 want to guess at is that he's claiming that in 2:27:27.920 --> 2:27:36.080 places where police WON'T support ice by removing protesters from 2:27:36.120 --> 2:27:41.320 the STREETS outside, ice Facilities The united states is not 2:27:41.400 --> 2:27:46.160 going to allow international travelers to enter at airports in. 2:27:46.240 --> 2:27:50.119 Those cities there's a lot to break. Down There like 2:27:50.440 --> 2:27:53.360 i'm not really going to because it suffice it to 2:27:53.360 --> 2:27:54.320 say that this would cause. 2:27:54.600 --> 2:27:57.000 Absolute chaos that's not going, to happen because that's going 2:27:57.040 --> 2:27:59.520 to heavily. Disrupt capital that's that's just that's just. 2:27:59.560 --> 2:28:03.080 Not, happen yeah it's not really possible for this. To, 2:28:03.160 --> 2:28:05.720 work like it's not that they can divert to non, woke, 2:28:05.959 --> 2:28:09.400 airports right that's not how air. 2:28:09.440 --> 2:28:10.400 Travel works is? 2:28:10.440 --> 2:28:15.680 This silly but, It's Interesting like mullin has been a 2:28:15.720 --> 2:28:19.240 bit less kind of crazy and he's like posting. His, 2:28:19.360 --> 2:28:21.560 policy yeah but maybe he was just getting. 2:28:21.600 --> 2:28:24.120 WARMED up i Mean, he's yeah he obviously does not 2:28:24.240 --> 2:28:26.960 understand who his drew. Master is if he actually thinks 2:28:27.000 --> 2:28:27.680 that this is something that. 2:28:27.760 --> 2:28:30.840 Can, happen YEAH he i don't know if he. 2:28:30.879 --> 2:28:32.840 Does what he's just Talking To fox news and yeah 2:28:33.040 --> 2:28:35.520 said what He Thought fox news wanted. To hear mullin 2:28:35.640 --> 2:28:37.760 was talking about this in response to a large and 2:28:37.800 --> 2:28:41.360 growing Protest At, delaney hall which is a private detention Facility, 2:28:41.400 --> 2:28:45.080 In Newark, new jersey where three hundred detainees have been 2:28:45.080 --> 2:28:48.240 on hunger strike Since. Last friday mullin has versusly claimed 2:28:48.240 --> 2:28:51.400 that they chose to do This Some Memorial, day friday, 2:28:51.400 --> 2:28:54.600 of Course Not, memorial day and that they want their. 2:28:54.640 --> 2:29:01.240 Ethnic food people in detention are entitled to religiously, appropriate 2:29:01.280 --> 2:29:03.720 food but that's not what's, happening, here right people are 2:29:03.760 --> 2:29:06.000 on hunger strike because of the conditions in. The Facility 2:29:06.480 --> 2:29:09.600 New Jersey Senator, andy kim who's been there for a 2:29:09.640 --> 2:29:12.480 while with protesters that he got pepper balled and. Tear 2:29:12.560 --> 2:29:16.440 gast he entered the facility to, inspect it and he 2:29:16.720 --> 2:29:19.160 made a thread on egg, dot com the, everything website 2:29:19.160 --> 2:29:22.440 where he detailed horrible, abuses inside including a woman who 2:29:22.520 --> 2:29:25.360 had been denied obg wayncare and a pregnant woman who 2:29:25.440 --> 2:29:30.400 had miscarried inside. THE facility dhs has claimed in response, 2:29:30.560 --> 2:29:33.320 that quote, IN fact ice has highed detention standards IN 2:29:33.400 --> 2:29:36.640 most us prisons that HOLD actual. Us citizens that's an 2:29:36.680 --> 2:29:39.360 incredible thing to say when someone has just detailed the 2:29:39.360 --> 2:29:41.560 fact that people are having un accompanied miscarriages in your 2:29:41.600 --> 2:29:43.680 facility and, being, like well we do worse Things to. 2:29:43.760 --> 2:29:47.520 Americans here there are really a lot of. Layers There, 2:29:48.560 --> 2:29:53.280 on monday one of the leaders of the hunger strike 2:29:53.800 --> 2:29:58.400 was transferred out of the Facility in newark to. Another, 2:29:58.480 --> 2:30:02.640 facility right it's not uncommon for people to be moved 2:30:02.680 --> 2:30:06.759 around in immigration detention for, various reasons right to include. 2:30:06.760 --> 2:30:07.440 In, this case. 2:30:07.600 --> 2:30:13.600 They're, ORGANIZING finally thepcw has published documents detailing a large 2:30:13.640 --> 2:30:16.879 hall of undeclared chemical weapons that it Found. 2:30:16.920 --> 2:30:20.200 In syria what IS the moszpw for those who may 2:30:20.240 --> 2:30:22.560 not be, Acronym aware. 2:30:22.720 --> 2:30:26.840 It's the organization For the Prohibition Of. Chemical weapons why this. Is, 2:30:26.879 --> 2:30:33.360 interesting firstly there has been open source reporting detailing The 2:30:33.520 --> 2:30:37.879 use biaside of chemical weapons against his own population, for 2:30:38.160 --> 2:30:41.880 years and this. Confirms, that secondly there is a particularly 2:30:41.920 --> 2:30:44.879 disgusting faction of the left In The united states and 2:30:44.879 --> 2:30:50.240 elsewhere which has spent years denying that this is, the 2:30:50.280 --> 2:30:54.360 case spent years effectively running cover FOR a sad murdering 2:30:54.400 --> 2:30:58.560 little children with. Chemical weapons we had very good evidence 2:30:58.600 --> 2:31:01.879 that this was. Happening before we now have incontrovertible proof 2:31:01.959 --> 2:31:03.880 That as sad have the ability to do this and did. 2:31:03.920 --> 2:31:06.920 Do this we already know that he, did it but 2:31:07.040 --> 2:31:09.800 it should really make you question the legitimacy of any 2:31:09.840 --> 2:31:13.480 media source that continues or ever has denied THAT a 2:31:13.600 --> 2:31:17.320 sad used, chemical weapons or indeed any politician or. Political 2:31:17.360 --> 2:31:21.000 actor there's no instance in which it's okay to use 2:31:21.080 --> 2:31:25.560 chemical weapons, against, civilians period and anyone apologizing, for that in, 2:31:25.560 --> 2:31:26.560 my opinion it is. 2:31:26.680 --> 2:31:31.960 Pretty despicable in, other news about two, WEEKS Ago abc 2:31:32.160 --> 2:31:37.360 news nuked the five thirty, eight archive scrubbing all the 2:31:37.560 --> 2:31:41.720 articles with links now redirecting TO The abc. Politics homepage 2:31:42.480 --> 2:31:45.199 as annoying as some of the five thirty eight type people, 2:31:45.280 --> 2:31:49.680 can be this is a bad removal of like documented 2:31:49.680 --> 2:31:51.560 informations going all the way back to two thousand. And 2:31:51.600 --> 2:31:54.680 eight it is UNFORTUNATE that abc has. Done this there 2:31:54.760 --> 2:31:57.879 still is third party archives of these articles that you, 2:31:57.920 --> 2:32:02.360 can find but it will make actually referencing information held 2:32:02.840 --> 2:32:05.120 or previously held on five thirty eight much more difficult. 2:32:05.120 --> 2:32:08.160 Going, forward YEAH and i also just want to say 2:32:08.160 --> 2:32:10.800 this is a continuous problem with storing information On, the 2:32:10.800 --> 2:32:13.800 internet which, Is, that yeah information On the internet is. 2:32:13.800 --> 2:32:18.279 Incredibly ephemeral it is very easy for entire people's lives 2:32:18.320 --> 2:32:21.039 work to simply be deleted because a parent company decided 2:32:21.080 --> 2:32:24.680 to make. A move, and yeah there's a bunch of 2:32:24.680 --> 2:32:27.920 people who do good work on, digital preservation but all 2:32:27.959 --> 2:32:30.160 of the work that we produce online is significantly more 2:32:30.160 --> 2:32:31.560 ephemeral than we tend to. 2:32:31.600 --> 2:32:31.760 Think. 2:32:31.760 --> 2:32:35.320 About, yeah Yeah As jamie loftus said in her last 2:32:35.360 --> 2:32:38.480 regular podcast that she did, for us this is a 2:32:38.480 --> 2:32:40.760 future piece of, lost, media right which is true of 2:32:40.800 --> 2:32:42.600 almost everything anyone puts up On, the. 2:32:42.560 --> 2:32:43.400 Internet and. 2:32:44.800 --> 2:32:47.080 There are groups of people who have worked over the 2:32:47.160 --> 2:32:49.920 years to try and, mitigate that Including The internet archive 2:32:49.959 --> 2:32:53.400 and The Way, back machine and they are currently, under 2:32:53.520 --> 2:32:56.560 attack as is from Within The, wikipedia foundation as we'll talk, 2:32:56.600 --> 2:33:00.320 About later, but, like yeah it's the only way to 2:33:00.440 --> 2:33:03.200 make this stuff not be aphemeral and to actually like 2:33:03.840 --> 2:33:08.080 keep a permanent archive of culture is to support the people. 2:33:08.120 --> 2:33:11.160 Doing that and the people doing that are never going 2:33:11.160 --> 2:33:14.360 to be entirely, cool with, for example the people who, 2:33:14.360 --> 2:33:18.560 make movies the people who put, out newspapers and there's 2:33:18.560 --> 2:33:20.680 an extent to which they just need the backing of 2:33:20.840 --> 2:33:24.800 us and of our government to say you can't stop 2:33:24.840 --> 2:33:26.760 them from doing that because it's in the best needs 2:33:26.800 --> 2:33:27.640 of the, human race and. 2:33:27.640 --> 2:33:28.560 That's not going to happen right. 2:33:28.560 --> 2:33:36.880 Now anyway, Last Weekend fox news reported that socialist Live 2:33:36.920 --> 2:33:40.879 Streamer hassan piker and the leader of the Activist Organization 2:33:41.040 --> 2:33:44.240 code pink have been subpoena by the federal government as 2:33:44.240 --> 2:33:47.520 a part of an investigation into a humanitarian aid Trip 2:33:47.560 --> 2:33:50.160 to cuba with a bunch of left wing activists and Influencers. 2:33:50.320 --> 2:33:54.640 Last march fox claimed this investigation is part of a 2:33:54.720 --> 2:33:58.240 quote broader dragnet inveloping as many As forty american citizens 2:33:58.400 --> 2:34:04.359 who Joined the marxist Convoy to. Havana unquote after Returning 2:34:04.400 --> 2:34:07.440 from cuba two, months AGO twenty us citizens were briefly 2:34:07.440 --> 2:34:10.600 detained and interrogated at, the border and eighteen of them 2:34:10.640 --> 2:34:14.280 had their phones and other devices SEIZED by cbp agents 2:34:14.600 --> 2:34:20.560 At The Miami INTERNATIONAL. Airport yep fox supported that these 2:34:20.600 --> 2:34:24.400 new subpoenas Show that piker is now caught in a 2:34:24.520 --> 2:34:28.000 quote federal inquiry into whether activists who Traveled to Cuba 2:34:28.080 --> 2:34:33.640 in MARCH violated us sanctioned laws, through, financing coordination or 2:34:33.680 --> 2:34:37.640 delivery of Goods, to cuba including potential Contacts with cuban 2:34:37.720 --> 2:34:42.440 government personnel or entities on, the island also claiming that 2:34:42.480 --> 2:34:46.000 this investigation is part of a quote broader effort by Officials, At, 2:34:46.000 --> 2:34:50.240 treasury State And justice departments to curb malign foreign influence 2:34:50.280 --> 2:34:55.520 operations Inside The united. States Unquote hassan piker has said 2:34:55.560 --> 2:34:59.320 that he learned about the Subpoena through fox's, media reporting 2:35:00.120 --> 2:35:03.800 and he has not yet been contacted by. The government 2:35:04.879 --> 2:35:10.240 fox referred to these subpoenas as quote unquote, Administrative subpoenas 2:35:10.800 --> 2:35:14.840 and it turns Out Neither hassan Piker Nor code pink 2:35:15.240 --> 2:35:18.120 have actually been subpoenaed by. The government they've they've not 2:35:18.160 --> 2:35:22.800 actually been served by the. Federal government. Oh Boy, on 2:35:22.879 --> 2:35:26.560 tuesday the Leader Of code Pink Told ryan grimm that 2:35:26.640 --> 2:35:30.360 she received an email From The Treasury department's Office Of 2:35:30.600 --> 2:35:36.080 Foreign assets control requesting information about the Trip, to cuba 2:35:36.640 --> 2:35:40.039 suggesting that there is some, probe here but it's not technically, 2:35:40.080 --> 2:35:44.760 a subpoena and there's still no indication Yet If hassan 2:35:44.840 --> 2:35:46.920 piker has received a similar request. 2:35:46.959 --> 2:35:48.920 For information, and like this. 2:35:49.080 --> 2:35:52.360 Is bad it's not unusual if you go to a 2:35:52.400 --> 2:35:55.959 Place like Cuba that, american citizens they're certainly not supposed. 2:35:56.000 --> 2:35:59.440 To trades it too directly to be stopped in questions 2:35:59.440 --> 2:36:01.080 of the way to, the country and it's now not 2:36:01.200 --> 2:36:03.160 unusual for devices to. 2:36:03.200 --> 2:36:04.920 Be taken none of this. 2:36:05.000 --> 2:36:06.640 Is good like the fact that they could just take 2:36:06.680 --> 2:36:10.560 your shit at the border. Remains bad, but Yeah as garrison, 2:36:10.600 --> 2:36:12.520 has said, right now this is. 2:36:12.480 --> 2:36:15.760 Not what a lot of initial reporting made it. Look Like. 2:36:15.879 --> 2:36:19.560 Quite, Yeah no, if anything It seems fox is trying to, 2:36:20.320 --> 2:36:25.879 encourage this this broader drag net and manufacturer consent for 2:36:26.320 --> 2:36:29.360 there being subpoenas for people on this humanitarian age and. 2:36:29.480 --> 2:36:33.800 Influencer, Trip, yeah james Speaking. 2:36:33.800 --> 2:36:37.840 Of, Cuba yeah so let's talk a little bit about 2:36:38.000 --> 2:36:42.680 people seeking to become permanent residents Of The, united states 2:36:42.800 --> 2:36:44.720 and we'll get To the cuba tie in a. Minute 2:36:44.760 --> 2:36:51.000 here SO a uscis policy memorandum has a vice uscif's 2:36:51.040 --> 2:36:54.840 officers that MOST non us citizens is seeking to adjust 2:36:55.000 --> 2:36:57.160 their status will now have to LEAVE the usa to. 2:36:57.200 --> 2:37:01.560 Do so what it's adjusting adjusting generally when somebody who 2:37:01.600 --> 2:37:06.160 is here on a non immigrant visa or on another 2:37:06.240 --> 2:37:09.800 immigration status are just to become a, permanent resident right 2:37:10.040 --> 2:37:13.680 and previously they could do that Inside The, united states 2:37:14.200 --> 2:37:17.000 or they could go to a consulate and they could 2:37:17.040 --> 2:37:19.440 apply for a green kind of a consulate Outside The. 2:37:19.520 --> 2:37:24.720 United states now they're, saying that aside from cases of 2:37:25.360 --> 2:37:29.600 what they are calling, extraordinary discretion they're going to make 2:37:29.640 --> 2:37:31.680 people leave and apply from Outside The. 2:37:31.760 --> 2:37:33.480 United states that. 2:37:33.680 --> 2:37:37.760 Is bad what is worse is the way that this 2:37:37.959 --> 2:37:43.279 overlaps with their. Existing, policies right people already applying facing. 2:37:43.360 --> 2:37:47.000 Huge delays i've everbotten on, that before and now new 2:37:47.080 --> 2:37:50.359 applicants and possibly people who are halfway through their process 2:37:50.800 --> 2:37:54.480 will have. To leave that will often mean spouses leaving 2:37:54.480 --> 2:37:57.240 their spouse and their citizen children if they have them 2:37:57.720 --> 2:37:59.680 for an unknown amount. Of, time right this could take 2:37:59.720 --> 2:38:03.400 you very realistic to expect this to. Take years this 2:38:03.840 --> 2:38:10.360 dovetails with existing visa bands on seventy. Five countries what 2:38:10.440 --> 2:38:14.560 that means is that people from many of these countries 2:38:15.200 --> 2:38:19.440 cannot obtain any. Immigrant visas there are some very small 2:38:19.440 --> 2:38:22.280 exceptions to these. Visa bands in the case of the 2:38:22.280 --> 2:38:24.600 twenty countries which are on a, complete band there are 2:38:24.640 --> 2:38:28.280 exceptions for athletes Attending The world cup Or, the olympics. For, Example, 2:38:28.360 --> 2:38:31.160 right So, like iran it's one of. Those Countries the 2:38:31.160 --> 2:38:33.760 iranian team can Attend The. World cup they're actually Staying, 2:38:33.760 --> 2:38:36.520 in tijuana but crossing the border to come and do. 2:38:36.840 --> 2:38:41.120 Their matches for, everyone, else though if you leave and 2:38:41.160 --> 2:38:43.120 then you have to come back to collect a, green 2:38:43.160 --> 2:38:47.400 card re enter on an, immigrant visa then you get your. 2:38:47.400 --> 2:38:47.640 Green. 2:38:47.680 --> 2:38:51.439 Card right if you are prohibited from having an immigrant 2:38:51.520 --> 2:38:54.480 visa because you are a citizen of, these countries then 2:38:54.520 --> 2:38:57.560 you cannot re enter and thus you cannot get your. 2:38:57.600 --> 2:39:00.920 Green card and thus this is a de facto bar 2:39:01.760 --> 2:39:05.400 to people from those travel bank countries getting a green 2:39:05.440 --> 2:39:08.760 card In The united, states now which is. VERY bad 2:39:09.240 --> 2:39:12.640 i also noticed that there is not an EXEMPTION that 2:39:12.840 --> 2:39:15.920 i can see For The Cuban adjustment. Act Here The 2:39:15.959 --> 2:39:18.840 Cuban adjustment act is a special exploited Pathway for cubans 2:39:19.200 --> 2:39:21.879 that allows them to adjust a legal permanent. Residence status 2:39:22.120 --> 2:39:23.640 it used to be, two years now it's. A year 2:39:24.160 --> 2:39:27.120 this is particularly interesting GIVEN the usa is talking so 2:39:27.200 --> 2:39:29.360 much about how terrible things Are, in cuba but also 2:39:29.440 --> 2:39:31.360 saying if you've made it here and you're safe and 2:39:31.400 --> 2:39:34.360 you feel safer and you want, to stay. You can't 2:39:34.720 --> 2:39:37.959 you have to go Back to cuba AND apply i 2:39:38.000 --> 2:39:42.720 guess it. To adjust it seems, very hypocritical but there's. 2:39:42.760 --> 2:39:43.040 Nothing. 2:39:43.120 --> 2:39:48.360 New YEAH so i spoke to a couple of folks 2:39:48.400 --> 2:39:51.320 who would have expertise, in THIS and i don't have 2:39:51.360 --> 2:39:54.199 their permission to sign, their name. So won't there isn't 2:39:54.200 --> 2:39:57.520 a consulate Option for cubans seeking. To adjust they can't 2:39:57.560 --> 2:39:59.320 do it outside of the country And The cuban adjustment 2:39:59.440 --> 2:40:01.160 they have to do it. The countries they think that 2:40:01.240 --> 2:40:04.680 this would entirely not, Include them but like, everything else 2:40:05.280 --> 2:40:07.359 it's a little bit unclear and we. 2:40:07.040 --> 2:40:08.120 Will, FIND out. 2:40:08.320 --> 2:40:14.160 I guess, LAST month uscis also removed categorical deferred ACTION for. 2:40:14.360 --> 2:40:20.199 SIJS individuals sijs is special immigrant. Juvenile status it's granted 2:40:20.240 --> 2:40:23.119 to people IN the us who are Inside The united 2:40:23.120 --> 2:40:27.160 states without status who have been subject, to, abuse abandonment 2:40:27.240 --> 2:40:30.280 or neglect as found by. A Court the trump administration 2:40:30.320 --> 2:40:34.280 has already deported many of these, young people but this 2:40:34.480 --> 2:40:38.560 policy memo formally removed categorical, deferred enforcement Which of biden 2:40:38.640 --> 2:40:42.440 admin began doing in twenty. Twenty, two essentially some people 2:40:42.440 --> 2:40:45.400 will be told on receiving sijas that they would be 2:40:45.959 --> 2:40:48.840 safe from deportation and they could receive a. Work permit 2:40:48.879 --> 2:40:52.080 deferred enforcement is the same thing that PEOPLE under dhaka 2:40:52.160 --> 2:40:55.720 have right commonly referred to, as dreamers that has now. 2:40:55.800 --> 2:40:58.519 Been removed PEOPLE. 2:40:58.240 --> 2:41:01.720 With sijs kind of just to BEING the SIGs offers 2:41:01.720 --> 2:41:05.199 a pathway to permanent residency that now these people will 2:41:05.480 --> 2:41:07.920 evidently have to live in fear right up until they 2:41:08.000 --> 2:41:11.000 are able to. Become citizens if they're able to, become, Citizens, 2:41:11.600 --> 2:41:15.960 jess yeah like these are some of the most unfortunate 2:41:16.040 --> 2:41:20.480 people on. The planet like people who get sijs use 2:41:20.480 --> 2:41:24.879 of it has increased for, unaccompanied miners right that or children, 2:41:24.920 --> 2:41:27.480 should say people who have come across in the last 2:41:27.520 --> 2:41:31.440 maybe since twenty, eighteen ish but still it's people who. 2:41:31.240 --> 2:41:32.400 Have often gone to really. 2:41:32.480 --> 2:41:36.400 Terrible things the, justification Cited and i'm quoting from the 2:41:36.440 --> 2:41:40.400 memo here is. That quote the criminality gangs and program. 2:41:40.520 --> 2:41:45.640 Integrity Concerns In Special Immigrant Juvenile petitions report reviewed over 2:41:45.680 --> 2:41:49.160 three hundred THOUSAND aliens sija petitions filed from the beginning 2:41:49.200 --> 2:41:51.879 of fiscal year twenty Thirteen through february twenty. Twenty five 2:41:52.280 --> 2:41:55.560 key findings included eight hundred and fifty three known or 2:41:55.640 --> 2:42:01.080 suspected gang members WHO filed, sija petitions most receiving approval 2:42:01.280 --> 2:42:04.080 of a SIX. Hundred ms thirteen gang MEMBERS filed, sij 2:42:04.200 --> 2:42:06.960 petitions and more than five hundred. Were approved, among them 2:42:06.959 --> 2:42:10.240 at least seventy had been charged with gang related, federal racketeering, 2:42:10.280 --> 2:42:13.120 conspiracy offenses and many other charges violent crimes In The, 2:42:13.200 --> 2:42:18.320 united states including murderer. Sex OFFENSES additional soja petition approvals 2:42:18.360 --> 2:42:21.240 included more than one hundred known or suspected members Of The. 2:42:21.280 --> 2:42:24.800 Eighteenth gang at least three Trend de ragua gang members 2:42:24.840 --> 2:42:29.600 and dozens Of nor tenos. Gang members if you go 2:42:29.720 --> 2:42:33.640 back and look at, those numbers three hundred, THOUSAND petitions 2:42:34.080 --> 2:42:37.640 i see. Seventy, charges yeah. That's absurd that is a 2:42:37.640 --> 2:42:38.240 fraction of a. 2:42:38.320 --> 2:42:42.320 Single percent if they reviewed three, Hundred thousand even if 2:42:42.360 --> 2:42:45.160 this like eight hundred and fifty number, it's correct is, 2:42:45.160 --> 2:42:48.039 completely correct which is not which that's like less than 2:42:48.120 --> 2:42:49.120 one third of. A, percent. 2:42:49.200 --> 2:42:50.560 Yeah exactly it is a. 2:42:50.840 --> 2:42:54.680 Minuscule fraction if every single person who, they suspect and 2:42:54.800 --> 2:42:56.760 given what we've seen, about suspicion that could be as 2:42:56.840 --> 2:42:58.439 much as having, a, Tattoo. 2:42:58.240 --> 2:43:00.080 Right, yeah yeah it's. 2:43:00.120 --> 2:43:03.000 Ludicrous to join one up with the other, and, say 2:43:03.040 --> 2:43:05.400 therefore all of these, young people many of whom have 2:43:05.440 --> 2:43:07.840 gone through horrific things now will have. 2:43:07.800 --> 2:43:08.240 To live in. 2:43:08.320 --> 2:43:11.520 Fear again that policy memo came Out. IN april i 2:43:11.680 --> 2:43:14.400 found IT when i was looking through the policy memos 2:43:14.920 --> 2:43:17.520 ON the, uscis WEBSITE and i haven't seen any other reporting. 2:43:17.560 --> 2:43:19.680 On It maybe i've just, missed it but it's certainly 2:43:19.760 --> 2:43:21.959 something that people should be. AWARE of i want to 2:43:21.959 --> 2:43:25.320 do a scripted Series on sijas people for, understandable reasons 2:43:25.640 --> 2:43:28.320 not all of them want to get up in the media. 2:43:28.440 --> 2:43:33.280 Right, now yeah in terms of all the immigration changes that, 2:43:33.280 --> 2:43:35.959 have happened this collection of stuff is like some of 2:43:35.959 --> 2:43:36.400 the Worst that. 2:43:36.360 --> 2:43:38.160 I've heard you. Talk, about yeah it's. 2:43:38.240 --> 2:43:42.000 Really bad like they STARTED deporting, sijs people and even 2:43:42.320 --> 2:43:44.920 even immigration lawyers who have been, like that This second 2:43:44.920 --> 2:43:46.880 trump administration is going to be. Really bad The second 2:43:46.879 --> 2:43:50.080 trump administration is. Really bad people did not expect them 2:43:50.200 --> 2:43:52.520 to begin going after, these people and they did when they. 2:43:52.800 --> 2:43:55.960 Were detaining another thing they've claimed is that like some 2:43:56.000 --> 2:43:58.480 of them are over, twenty one, over eighteen because they 2:43:58.520 --> 2:43:59.560 can still apply it to twenty. 2:43:59.560 --> 2:43:59.680 One. 2:44:00.120 --> 2:44:04.000 Jurisdictions, Right, again sure that doesn't mean that they haven't 2:44:04.000 --> 2:44:06.959 been through, Terrible things like many many twenty one year 2:44:06.959 --> 2:44:10.400 Olds in america rely on their parents. For things these 2:44:10.440 --> 2:44:13.280 people often don't have their parents or have been some 2:44:13.360 --> 2:44:16.520 cases been abused by or abandoned by, their parents and 2:44:16.560 --> 2:44:19.840 then sending them back to a place where they may be, 2:44:19.959 --> 2:44:22.240 in danger where they may not. Be, Safe right there 2:44:22.280 --> 2:44:24.640 is no moral ethical justification. 2:44:24.760 --> 2:44:30.119 For, this really it's. Really bad it's. Really, horrible yeah pure. 2:44:30.280 --> 2:44:35.080 Undiluted, Violence yeah, and likewise we can very clearly see 2:44:35.080 --> 2:44:36.840 if we look at the list of travel boud countries 2:44:37.560 --> 2:44:39.400 is going to be a bar and people from a 2:44:39.440 --> 2:44:41.400 large number of countries where the majority of the population 2:44:41.520 --> 2:44:44.360 is not white getting citizenship and legal public residence states 2:44:44.360 --> 2:44:47.480 In The united states rights something that has very clearly 2:44:47.520 --> 2:44:49.879 been a motivating factor of policy for a. Long, time, 2:44:51.120 --> 2:44:56.200 so yeah more shit news from me. About immigration talking of, 2:44:56.240 --> 2:45:01.800 shit news we have to pivot. To advertisements we. 2:45:13.720 --> 2:45:13.800 And. 2:45:13.959 --> 2:45:19.000 We're back, oh boy well that's all been. Very depressing 2:45:19.160 --> 2:45:23.000 you know what's Not. Depressing catholicism, oh oh and, that 2:45:23.720 --> 2:45:28.560 too too great taste great together to make us. 2:45:28.560 --> 2:45:29.080 All happy. 2:45:30.320 --> 2:45:34.080 Oh man this week the same work that we're, Recording 2:45:34.080 --> 2:45:38.960 This pope leo the fourteenth issued An Encyclical, magnifica humanitas 2:45:39.680 --> 2:45:43.840 that warned against equating machine intelligence with. Human intelligence, he 2:45:44.000 --> 2:45:47.040 declared we must avoid the misconception of equating this type 2:45:47.040 --> 2:45:50.320 of intelligence with that of. Human beings these systems merely 2:45:50.360 --> 2:45:54.520 imitate certain functions of. Human intelligence this has, BEEN seen 2:45:54.600 --> 2:45:58.600 i think by most critics of artificial intelligence as a pretty. 2:45:58.640 --> 2:46:02.080 Good encyclical it is. Very long it's well over one, 2:46:02.120 --> 2:46:05.360 hundred pages so this is not like a. Quick read 2:46:05.480 --> 2:46:08.520 you should think about this as like going in and reading. 2:46:08.560 --> 2:46:12.480 A book it's a really. Interesting document among, other Things 2:46:12.600 --> 2:46:15.880 the Pope. Quotes Jr or tolkien at, one, point yeah 2:46:16.040 --> 2:46:18.480 which is a nice. Little bit he also makes a 2:46:18.520 --> 2:46:21.520 lot of references to mathematics and specifically like kind of 2:46:21.560 --> 2:46:26.520 comparing The way catholicism thinks about divinity And The holy 2:46:26.560 --> 2:46:29.119 spirit and all that to certain kind of like, geometric 2:46:29.160 --> 2:46:31.720 shapes because apparently he was a. MATH major i did not, 2:46:31.840 --> 2:46:35.080 know this but it comes through in the writing. OF 2:46:35.120 --> 2:46:38.640 this i would say my overall impression, is, like Oh 2:46:38.640 --> 2:46:41.199 the pope has a lot more understanding of like technical. 2:46:40.840 --> 2:46:43.640 STUFF than i thought he was going. To have This 2:46:43.720 --> 2:46:45.119 isn't this is. 2:46:45.040 --> 2:46:48.000 Not like a bad thing from a like a basic 2:46:48.200 --> 2:46:52.280 understanding of how the technology. Works, standpoint obviously a lot 2:46:52.320 --> 2:46:56.080 of this is based Around the pope's beliefs about the 2:46:56.680 --> 2:47:00.440 like what humanity is and the divinity within, human umanity 2:47:00.720 --> 2:47:04.600 which is not something that. Everybody BELIEVES but i also 2:47:04.640 --> 2:47:07.640 have found an awful lot of atheists and just kind 2:47:07.680 --> 2:47:10.760 of like non religious people who have been sharing this 2:47:11.200 --> 2:47:14.400 because while they don't, agree, that like, you know human 2:47:14.440 --> 2:47:17.720 beings are sacred because of the Sacrifice Of jesus christ necessarily, 2:47:17.800 --> 2:47:20.560 or whatever or that we were Made. By god they 2:47:20.800 --> 2:47:23.440 agree with the fact that there's something special about humanity 2:47:23.520 --> 2:47:26.520 that is not being recreated by, these llmms And so 2:47:26.560 --> 2:47:28.440 i've seen a lot of like praise as a result. Of, 2:47:28.440 --> 2:47:31.200 That however i've also SEEN what i thought were pretty. 2:47:31.240 --> 2:47:35.000 Salient critiques and the number one critique here is that 2:47:35.760 --> 2:47:39.800 this encyclical was released at an event that was kind 2:47:39.800 --> 2:47:43.440 of co launched with People, from anthropic And the vatican 2:47:43.520 --> 2:47:47.320 Worked with anthropic for this release and are in general 2:47:47.440 --> 2:47:50.119 kind of partnering maybe the, wrong term but working alongside 2:47:50.120 --> 2:47:53.000 them to try and have a dialogue about the FUTURE 2:47:53.000 --> 2:47:55.160 of ai and what it should and. Shouldn't do, and 2:47:55.240 --> 2:47:57.640 specifically one Thing That pope leo talked a lot about 2:47:58.040 --> 2:48:02.880 was the need to demilitarize or disarm, artificial intelligence as 2:48:02.920 --> 2:48:07.120 in remove it from use in like, defense industries and 2:48:07.360 --> 2:48:10.000 certainly make sure that it's not making the call to actually. 2:48:10.080 --> 2:48:14.039 Kill people and that's Something that anthropic has also took us, 2:48:14.280 --> 2:48:17.920 stand on insomuch as that now THAT the us government 2:48:18.040 --> 2:48:20.160 is trying to remove any partnership it Has. 2:48:20.200 --> 2:48:23.720 With, nthropic, yes yes they at least were openly. 2:48:23.800 --> 2:48:27.160 Against that now that Doesn't mean anthropics A company i 2:48:27.320 --> 2:48:29.800 like or a company that everybody. Should like they still 2:48:29.840 --> 2:48:32.800 played your eyes huge millions, of people basically anyone who's 2:48:32.800 --> 2:48:34.840 ever written. A book there's a lot of, illegal things 2:48:34.879 --> 2:48:38.320 objectively Illegal things, anthropic did and that's why there are 2:48:38.440 --> 2:48:41.040 numerous lawsuits against. Them NOW and i think it is 2:48:41.120 --> 2:48:43.800 in fact a problem that One of anthropics, Co Founders, 2:48:43.879 --> 2:48:47.000 chris ola was invited to speak at this event In, 2:48:47.040 --> 2:48:49.959 the vatican because one of the first things he did 2:48:50.120 --> 2:48:53.160 after Thanking the vatican And The catholic church And the 2:48:53.200 --> 2:48:56.080 pope for having, him there is kind of disagree with 2:48:56.120 --> 2:48:58.440 What the pope had said that these systems merely imitate 2:48:58.480 --> 2:49:02.680 certain functions of. Human Intelligence because ola said that These 2:49:02.680 --> 2:49:04.680 systems i'm not quote from an article In the register 2:49:04.800 --> 2:49:07.720 Here By thomas CLAPBURN quote, ai systems, he said are 2:49:07.760 --> 2:49:10.320 not the cold calculating robots we. Were promised they are made, 2:49:10.320 --> 2:49:12.360 from us from, our words and As The holy, father 2:49:12.400 --> 2:49:15.000 observes they remain an important way is mysterious to those 2:49:15.040 --> 2:49:15.480 of us who. 2:49:15.520 --> 2:49:20.120 Train them this IS what i have an. Issue, with no. 2:49:20.240 --> 2:49:23.120 They're not they're mysterious me in the same sense that 2:49:23.240 --> 2:49:25.200 like if you make a car that had always just 2:49:25.240 --> 2:49:27.200 been a simple. Ice engine if you make that a 2:49:27.280 --> 2:49:29.520 hybrid and you throw like a computer screen and a 2:49:29.560 --> 2:49:31.119 bunch of shit, in it you're gonna have a bunch 2:49:31.160 --> 2:49:34.039 of problems with, your car as like a manufacturer that 2:49:34.040 --> 2:49:36.160 you you didn't expect to have because you've. 2:49:36.160 --> 2:49:37.680 Added, complexity right. 2:49:37.560 --> 2:49:40.120 But we can't predict every single outcome of, machine learning, 2:49:40.480 --> 2:49:43.640 right yeah but but but the way the aropic guy, 2:49:43.720 --> 2:49:47.240 is using, you know basic basic facts about like machine 2:49:47.280 --> 2:49:50.760 learning and, neural networks but framing them in a way to. 2:49:51.200 --> 2:49:54.640 These, are mysterious like the human brain, is mysterious, and, no, 2:49:54.840 --> 2:49:58.480 yes yeah but but it's also, like course you can't 2:49:58.480 --> 2:49:59.680 predict what the output is your. 2:49:59.800 --> 2:50:03.080 Entire processes you're just multiplying matrices against each other over 2:50:03.120 --> 2:50:05.320 and over again and then checking to see if the 2:50:05.360 --> 2:50:08.640 output of the random matricey multiplication you've done is what, You. 2:50:08.560 --> 2:50:09.720 Want, like yeah. 2:50:09.800 --> 2:50:13.039 No shit the dumb person comparison might BE if i 2:50:13.080 --> 2:50:15.040 were to buy an empty HOUSE and i were to 2:50:15.080 --> 2:50:17.840 fill that house with random shit for, thirty years for 2:50:17.879 --> 2:50:19.840 so Long that i've Forgotten what i've put in, the 2:50:19.840 --> 2:50:21.840 house AND then i sent you into the house to 2:50:21.879 --> 2:50:24.640 grab something at random. FROM it i might be totally 2:50:24.680 --> 2:50:27.480 surprised by what you. Bring out that doesn't mean anything 2:50:27.560 --> 2:50:31.160 mysterious or sacred. Has occurred it Just means i've. 2:50:31.040 --> 2:50:31.560 Forgotten, all this. 2:50:32.959 --> 2:50:33.000 You. 2:50:33.080 --> 2:50:35.520 Know. Yeah yeah or it's like it's like if you 2:50:35.600 --> 2:50:38.560 make a machine that just like spits out a, random, 2:50:38.600 --> 2:50:41.440 output yes you don't know what it's going, to, be, like. 2:50:42.000 --> 2:50:44.560 Yes this is this is what you, have. 2:50:44.560 --> 2:50:47.440 Done exactly a random output when it was been trained 2:50:47.440 --> 2:50:48.680 on the corpus of like. 2:50:49.160 --> 2:50:50.039 Human. Knowledge. 2:50:50.280 --> 2:50:52.360 Right yeah and one of the THINGS that i find 2:50:52.480 --> 2:50:55.760 very frustrating Is that olah made the STATEMENT that ai 2:50:55.920 --> 2:50:59.279 systems are made from us and from, our, Words right. 2:50:59.560 --> 2:51:01.240 And he said that in a way as to like and. 2:51:01.280 --> 2:51:03.400 That's good it, means, that like we all are a 2:51:03.440 --> 2:51:05.039 part of this and it's a part, of us and 2:51:05.080 --> 2:51:07.360 so there's humanity. In, it, no, NO no ai isn't 2:51:07.400 --> 2:51:09.600 like made from. Our words they stole our words that 2:51:09.640 --> 2:51:12.120 are consent in order to monetize them. 2:51:12.160 --> 2:51:15.640 For themselves. That's different that's. 2:51:15.720 --> 2:51:18.360 Real, different yeah in the same way that back in 2:51:18.400 --> 2:51:21.080 the DAY when i, begun teaching people would plagiarize by 2:51:21.080 --> 2:51:24.119 copying pasting things. From, books yeah those are also made by. 2:51:24.160 --> 2:51:27.920 People's words it doesn't make, them, sacred yeah makes. Them, 2:51:27.959 --> 2:51:31.600 stolen now all our lists in here three questions for 2:51:31.680 --> 2:51:33.920 discernment and he phrases, is LIKE and i Hope The 2:51:33.920 --> 2:51:36.120 catholic church can like help us figure out how we 2:51:36.160 --> 2:51:38.760 should move forward with. These things these are the big QUESTIONS. 2:51:38.760 --> 2:51:41.120 BEHIND ai i want to quote again for that piece 2:51:41.120 --> 2:51:43.640 In the register because the author, Of, that clappert has 2:51:43.640 --> 2:51:46.280 a funny, Bit here, oh la how can we ensure 2:51:46.280 --> 2:51:48.400 the GAINS of ai are? Shared globally we do not 2:51:48.520 --> 2:51:51.000 have a mechanism. For this we have many what is. 2:51:51.000 --> 2:51:53.880 CALLED taxes i know there is litigation already. On going 2:51:54.040 --> 2:51:56.520 we also Have The french revolution And The russian revolution, 2:51:56.680 --> 2:51:59.160 among others as well as sharing models when nothing. 2:51:59.200 --> 2:52:04.360 Else works, That's, good yeah. 2:52:04.400 --> 2:52:05.920 That's good That's what i've got to say. 2:52:05.920 --> 2:52:08.640 ON this, i, mean yeah obviously this anthropic guy is 2:52:08.640 --> 2:52:12.119 going to frame certain things as marketing for, the company 2:52:12.160 --> 2:52:14.040 right he that that's going to determine the way that 2:52:14.040 --> 2:52:15.920 that that he uses certain words and the way that 2:52:15.920 --> 2:52:18.840 he discusses machine learning and. Neural networks right when he's 2:52:18.879 --> 2:52:21.080 saying that this is like based on the human, brain 2:52:21.240 --> 2:52:24.160 roughly it's, because yeah it's because it's because it's a 2:52:24.200 --> 2:52:26.800 machine learning, neural network so it's that's going to frame 2:52:26.840 --> 2:52:28.360 the way that he's. DOING it i think it makes 2:52:28.360 --> 2:52:30.320 sense For The catholic church to try to enter into 2:52:30.320 --> 2:52:33.560 dialogue with a Company, like, anthropic sure especially if, they can, 2:52:33.640 --> 2:52:36.080 you know unite against teals efforts and even maybe some 2:52:36.160 --> 2:52:39.119 of some of the Efforts Of. Open aye But obviously 2:52:39.160 --> 2:52:41.200 anthropic has their own motivations for, doing this which is to. 2:52:41.879 --> 2:52:45.160 Enrich, themselves, yes yes BUT it's i don't think it's. 2:52:45.080 --> 2:52:48.360 Surprising That The catholic church will will also try to 2:52:48.440 --> 2:52:51.720 enter into dialogue to influence the outcome of. THESE things 2:52:51.760 --> 2:52:54.480 i think, in General the pope statement is. 2:52:53.920 --> 2:52:56.400 IS fine i Think the pope statement. 2:52:56.480 --> 2:52:58.720 IS fine i do think this might be a data 2:52:58.760 --> 2:53:01.720 point in terms of in The future church may need 2:53:01.720 --> 2:53:03.360 to recognize that you can't actually work with. 2:53:03.400 --> 2:53:06.320 These guys perhaps that will be the outcome. We'll, See 2:53:06.480 --> 2:53:08.600 WELL but, I mean I think i think that's part 2:53:08.640 --> 2:53:10.560 of what's happening, here, though right is that the Reason 2:53:10.600 --> 2:53:14.080 the church IS taking antiai positions while working with them 2:53:14.120 --> 2:53:15.920 is that they're like they're they're trying to have it 2:53:16.000 --> 2:53:19.680 both ways in terms of co opting both LIKE the 2:53:19.720 --> 2:53:23.200 antiai movement and also work like work with these companies 2:53:23.240 --> 2:53:24.400 to sort of like build their. 2:53:24.440 --> 2:53:28.800 INFLUENCE space i don't see it, FULLY that i think for, 2:53:28.920 --> 2:53:32.320 the popes because he's been very consistent about being horrified 2:53:32.360 --> 2:53:34.600 by the growth of the arms industry and the IDEA 2:53:34.600 --> 2:53:37.400 of ai weapons. IN war i kind of suspect From the, 2:53:37.480 --> 2:53:40.960 vatican's standpoint when that all Erupted with anthropic pulling out 2:53:41.000 --> 2:53:43.640 and saying they weren't willing to work With the Department 2:53:43.640 --> 2:53:45.520 of defense on the things the deity wanted them, to 2:53:45.520 --> 2:53:48.800 do that that's probably When the vatican made. The CALL 2:53:48.879 --> 2:53:51.800 but i don't. Actually know, You know i'm Not gonna 2:53:51.800 --> 2:53:53.760 i'm not going to say that the more sinister outcome 2:53:53.840 --> 2:53:55.879 is definitely not. What's OCCURRING but i think there's a 2:53:55.920 --> 2:53:58.160 number of ways to kind of look at what the 2:53:58.240 --> 2:53:59.720 decision that was made and why it. 2:53:59.720 --> 2:54:01.000 WAS made, i Mean. 2:54:01.080 --> 2:54:03.400 The catholic arch is one of the most globally influential 2:54:03.600 --> 2:54:07.879 bodies on. The planet they do have like their theological 2:54:07.920 --> 2:54:10.920 reasons FOR opposing ai as well as sort of ethical 2:54:10.959 --> 2:54:13.760 reasons that it's illuminated by the pope in terms of 2:54:13.760 --> 2:54:16.480 like work, of protections in terms of the anti, war 2:54:16.560 --> 2:54:19.800 STUFF and i do believe he has, like actual, you 2:54:19.800 --> 2:54:23.400 know legitimate spiritual beliefs about like what, humanity is and 2:54:23.920 --> 2:54:25.760 it WAS something i appreciate is that he doesn't just 2:54:25.800 --> 2:54:28.959 take THIS like ai skeptic point of view and just 2:54:29.000 --> 2:54:33.920 to deny THAT like ai will, you know significantly transform, our, 2:54:34.040 --> 2:54:36.840 world RIGHT because I think ai is is transforming production 2:54:36.959 --> 2:54:40.160 and in some pretty. Significant Ways that pope's not just 2:54:40.560 --> 2:54:43.920 HOPING that ai will. Go away he's affirming that we 2:54:43.920 --> 2:54:46.120 actually need to do something about this to protect our. 2:54:46.120 --> 2:54:49.120 Own humanity and EVEN though ai is not, human it 2:54:49.560 --> 2:54:53.120 humans do determine how it will, be developed and therefore we. 2:54:53.120 --> 2:54:57.760 Should ACT and i think that makes sense for. His, 2:54:58.000 --> 2:55:01.600 POSITION yeah. I don't i'm not surprised as to the 2:55:01.640 --> 2:55:04.760 fact that he's. DOING it i guess my long term 2:55:04.879 --> 2:55:08.560 DOUBT is i don't think any of these companies have 2:55:08.760 --> 2:55:13.480 the ability on their own to make. Responsible, choices no 2:55:13.920 --> 2:55:15.400 certainly not the future of these. 2:55:15.600 --> 2:55:17.520 Of THESE and i don't think they have the ability 2:55:17.520 --> 2:55:18.240 to contribute to. 2:55:18.280 --> 2:55:21.440 Responsible, DECISIONS sure i think they need to be, Man, 2:55:21.480 --> 2:55:27.600 handled yeah totally by armed agents of. The state OTHERWISE 2:55:27.800 --> 2:55:29.920 armed us are going to have to, do it, you 2:55:29.959 --> 2:55:33.880 know that's that's, the reality and that's, the reality not JUST, 2:55:33.920 --> 2:55:35.320 with ai that's the reality with every. 2:55:35.360 --> 2:55:37.000 Mega. Corporation right if. 2:55:36.800 --> 2:55:40.000 The government does not stop them from destroying life for 2:55:40.160 --> 2:55:43.200 large numbers, of people then large numbers of people are 2:55:43.200 --> 2:55:45.520 going to do crazy things, to them. You know and 2:55:45.879 --> 2:55:48.120 if you want crazy things to stop happening to, for 2:55:48.200 --> 2:55:51.320 EXAMPLE the Ceo OF, open ai maybe he should stop 2:55:51.400 --> 2:55:52.600 saying his technology might. 2:55:52.720 --> 2:55:52.879 Kill. 2:55:52.920 --> 2:55:59.199 Everyone yeah on a, Related note wired has recently obtained 2:55:59.240 --> 2:56:03.040 thousands of documents FROM, THE, dhs fbi and state level 2:56:03.200 --> 2:56:08.520 info sharing. Anti terrorism they're called, fusion centers where information 2:56:08.600 --> 2:56:11.000 is shared BETWEEN, the FEDS, the stay and local local. 2:56:11.040 --> 2:56:13.119 Law enforcement and a. 2:56:13.080 --> 2:56:18.560 Report From The New york intelligence And Counter terrorism bureau 2:56:18.720 --> 2:56:22.880 has warned of widespread upheaval in response to the ADOPTION, 2:56:23.000 --> 2:56:27.760 of ai and has coined a, new term quote anti 2:56:27.920 --> 2:56:33.600 tech violent. Extremism unquote this is this is a this 2:56:33.640 --> 2:56:34.680 is a quote from. 2:56:34.840 --> 2:56:35.040 This. 2:56:35.160 --> 2:56:39.400 Report quote the chaotic atmosphere that may result FROM emergent 2:56:39.560 --> 2:56:42.320 aa technology in the next five years may fuel large 2:56:42.360 --> 2:56:46.840 scale protests that devolve into civil unrest and anti tech violent, 2:56:46.920 --> 2:56:50.560 extremist activity especially in larger bernarias Such As new york. 2:56:50.640 --> 2:56:52.520 City unquote this. 2:56:52.600 --> 2:56:56.440 Is, interesting also According, to Wired The intelligence bureau report 2:56:57.080 --> 2:57:02.760 Referenced the ziziants and worn that quote paranoid VIEWS regarding 2:57:02.800 --> 2:57:06.440 ai may proliferate in the Aftermath of physician's trial thanks 2:57:06.440 --> 2:57:09.879 to their quote attempt, to reason the belief that a 2:57:09.920 --> 2:57:16.400 godlike INCARNATION of ai is imminent and belief that humans 2:57:16.520 --> 2:57:19.280 must best use their time in the present to devote 2:57:19.320 --> 2:57:23.280 themselves to ensuring its compliance with, human morality or face 2:57:23.440 --> 2:57:25.600 existential consequences for failing to. 2:57:25.640 --> 2:57:25.960 Do So. 2:57:26.240 --> 2:57:32.040 Unquote god this is, really interesting the Stuff that roberts 2:57:32.080 --> 2:57:35.640 been talking about for quite. A, while yeah, AND like 2:57:36.920 --> 2:57:39.720 i think this report was actually written Before The sam 2:57:39.760 --> 2:57:42.119 maltman molotov, cocktail attack or at least it was written 2:57:42.120 --> 2:57:44.880 around the, same TIME but i think probably a little. 2:57:44.879 --> 2:57:47.760 Bit before but considering the molotov cocktail attack On sim 2:57:47.760 --> 2:57:50.640 maltman's property and the gunshots fired into the home of 2:57:50.680 --> 2:57:54.480 a pro data center city, council, person like it makes 2:57:54.520 --> 2:57:58.920 sense that law enforcement IS considering antiai violence as an emerging. 2:57:58.920 --> 2:58:02.160 Threat vector but it also makes sense to be concerned 2:58:02.200 --> 2:58:06.240 that non violent opposition may get caught in a federal 2:58:06.400 --> 2:58:09.240 or state. Level, dragnet yeah. 2:58:08.840 --> 2:58:10.760 And that's what fusion center is, to, you right they 2:58:10.879 --> 2:58:12.720 think dragnet a whole bunch, of shit. 2:58:12.680 --> 2:58:13.480 And that's exactly what. 2:58:13.920 --> 2:58:16.560 Centers do and most Of this wired report is talking 2:58:16.600 --> 2:58:19.560 about documents from fusion centers. And like as we have, 2:58:19.600 --> 2:58:23.840 already seen, law enforcements surveillance capacity and scope has been 2:58:23.879 --> 2:58:27.240 empowered and extended By The National Security presidential memorandum, number 2:58:27.240 --> 2:58:31.160 seven and public organizers and protesters are much easier to 2:58:31.160 --> 2:58:34.280 target than the small minority of people that actually end 2:58:34.360 --> 2:58:38.760 up committing. Violent crimes wired reported, that, federal state and 2:58:38.800 --> 2:58:43.560 local agencies are gathering and circulating intelligence about alleged threats to. 2:58:43.640 --> 2:58:48.280 Data centers the intelligence Documents that wired quotes from outline 2:58:48.320 --> 2:58:52.160 a variety of threat actors, and models not simply data. 2:58:52.160 --> 2:58:57.640 Center protests quote, adversarial actors including state, sponsored entities, criminal 2:58:57.640 --> 2:59:01.720 groups and extremists such as homegrown island extremists or environmental 2:59:01.760 --> 2:59:05.959 extremists MAY target us. Data centers these actors could also 2:59:06.000 --> 2:59:08.600 exploit the strategic importance of data centers TO the, us 2:59:08.640 --> 2:59:13.560 economy using them for activities like, cryptocurrency mining or leveraging 2:59:13.720 --> 2:59:17.800 third party entities such as front companies to gain ACCESS 2:59:17.840 --> 2:59:21.959 to us data and, infrastructure unquote so that outlines not 2:59:22.240 --> 2:59:26.760 just like environmental or like the general anti data center 2:59:27.400 --> 2:59:30.400 beliefs held By the. American public like this shows like actual, 2:59:30.440 --> 2:59:34.119 you know like threats to national security by hostile state 2:59:34.200 --> 2:59:37.920 actors or, criminal groups as well as people with their 2:59:37.959 --> 2:59:42.400 own environmental or ethical reasons FOR opposing. Ai, Domestically though 2:59:42.600 --> 2:59:45.320 wired also reported That a fusion Center In northern virginia 2:59:45.600 --> 2:59:50.240 created a Report on tesla takedown protests and in person 2:59:50.400 --> 2:59:53.840 assemblies like demonstrations In An arlington county budget meeting And 2:59:53.879 --> 2:59:56.879 A fairfax County school board meeting where people voiced OPPOSITION. 2:59:56.959 --> 3:00:01.400 To, ai yeah and this is again also like historically 3:00:01.440 --> 3:00:03.720 what these fision centers have been, Used for exchange was, 3:00:03.720 --> 3:00:05.400 TALKING about i mean like all the way back To, 3:00:05.640 --> 3:00:09.440 LIKE god, i MEAN like i probably should have worked 3:00:09.440 --> 3:00:11.200 out in WHAT order i wanted to talk, About These, 3:00:11.320 --> 3:00:13.160 like yeah fusion centers have been used to target everything 3:00:13.200 --> 3:00:16.680 from like anti ur rock war protest stuff in like 3:00:16.760 --> 3:00:20.840 the mid two thousands through, like yeah like fusion centers 3:00:20.840 --> 3:00:22.440 are like one of the big coordinat engagents for like 3:00:22.520 --> 3:00:25.120 all of the repression in. Twenty twenty they've been used 3:00:25.160 --> 3:00:28.720 in Like anti palestine protests and LIKE twenty fourge and the. 3:00:28.720 --> 3:00:31.600 Campus occupations, so, LIKE yeah i like these sorts of 3:00:31.640 --> 3:00:34.119 like intelligence reports are talking about like different, threat factors 3:00:34.120 --> 3:00:37.400 but going after protesters is like what these fision centers 3:00:37.840 --> 3:00:39.360 in a lot of cases are designed. 3:00:39.400 --> 3:00:41.720 To do, so, yeah yeah. 3:00:41.600 --> 3:00:44.560 Definitely a thing to be, concerned about given what these 3:00:44.600 --> 3:00:49.160 things are and what. They, do yeah speaking of, cryptocurrency mining, 3:00:50.800 --> 3:00:54.360 oh boy, so, yeah yeah speak speak speaking of using 3:00:54.920 --> 3:00:59.120 large entities for. Crypto bullshit so last week we talked 3:00:59.160 --> 3:01:02.080 a bit about and wash The New Federal reserve board 3:01:02.120 --> 3:01:04.560 chairman's like ties to the tech, right right ties to 3:01:04.640 --> 3:01:08.080 feel ties and recent ties to this whole sort of 3:01:08.160 --> 3:01:11.600 world of like tech venture. Capital money AND today i 3:01:11.600 --> 3:01:14.880 want to talk about as an executive Order from may 3:01:15.040 --> 3:01:19.800 nineteenth From the trump administration that Orders The federal reserve 3:01:19.959 --> 3:01:23.960 to consider allowing crypto companies and OTHER non fdic and 3:01:24.000 --> 3:01:27.840 short entities to. Use, fedwire okay so what? Is fedwire 3:01:28.360 --> 3:01:32.600 on a. Macro level fedwire is the reason The entire american. 3:01:32.680 --> 3:01:37.200 Economy functions it is the payment service that banks IN 3:01:37.240 --> 3:01:40.000 the us used to both send money to each other 3:01:40.200 --> 3:01:42.360 and TO. The fed if you wanted to do. An, 3:01:42.360 --> 3:01:46.000 analogy right you could say that Fedwire is PayPal, for 3:01:46.080 --> 3:01:50.039 banks but like the reality is, Not That like PayPal 3:01:50.200 --> 3:01:51.080 Is like fedwire. 3:01:51.160 --> 3:01:53.600 For. People right fedwire. 3:01:53.320 --> 3:01:58.960 Is maybe the single most important infrastructure piece of The 3:01:59.120 --> 3:02:01.080 entire america. A me i was gonna talk about this a, 3:02:01.080 --> 3:02:04.600 bit later but the surface on, an AVERAGE the fed 3:02:04.720 --> 3:02:07.960 estimates that it moves one point one quadrillion dollars. 3:02:08.000 --> 3:02:11.440 Per year whoa what is a quadrillion fit then in 3:02:11.480 --> 3:02:16.200 a number of, bigness scale that's a million million dollars lot. Per, 3:02:16.280 --> 3:02:21.520 Year right like The entire american financial system moves moves through. 3:02:21.520 --> 3:02:24.640 This service and you can also like move money to 3:02:24.680 --> 3:02:26.280 the government, through this so you can you can do 3:02:26.320 --> 3:02:29.879 exchanges With The federal reserve itself or The Different federal. Reserve, 3:02:29.920 --> 3:02:32.680 banks now in order to get access, to fedwire you 3:02:32.840 --> 3:02:36.120 have to be an, actual, bank right you have to 3:02:36.120 --> 3:02:40.280 be LIKE an fdic. Insured Bank and crypto has not 3:02:40.360 --> 3:02:43.840 had access to. This system LIKE crypto i really don't 3:02:43.840 --> 3:02:46.000 want to call them crypto banks because they're, not banks 3:02:46.040 --> 3:02:47.280 and that's why they have a net access to. The 3:02:47.320 --> 3:02:52.000 system because they're. Not banks crypto is not money and 3:02:52.200 --> 3:02:53.080 it's not none of. 3:02:53.080 --> 3:02:53.440 This stuff. 3:02:53.480 --> 3:02:55.240 THE subjects, i mean IT'S subject i guess to a 3:02:55.240 --> 3:02:57.760 little bit of like, securities regulation but it's not subject 3:02:57.760 --> 3:03:02.680 to ACTUAL like fdic regulation or importantly deposit insurance, because 3:03:02.680 --> 3:03:05.959 again these are. Not, Banks now crypto has been trying 3:03:06.040 --> 3:03:09.880 to get access TO the fed wire system for years 3:03:09.959 --> 3:03:13.920 because in order for crypto companies to sort of like 3:03:13.959 --> 3:03:15.640 interface with the rest of the, banking system they have 3:03:15.640 --> 3:03:17.560 to like basically like get a bank to act as 3:03:17.560 --> 3:03:19.440 a partner for them instead of being able to like 3:03:19.480 --> 3:03:21.520 directly move the stuff around because they can't access. The 3:03:21.560 --> 3:03:26.480 system And so trump has at least given an executive 3:03:26.600 --> 3:03:29.000 order FOR the fed to consider. 3:03:29.120 --> 3:03:32.560 Doing This now trump cannot. 3:03:32.320 --> 3:03:35.920 Actually, force directly like you can't just sign an executive 3:03:36.000 --> 3:03:37.840 order that says you have To let crypto do this 3:03:37.879 --> 3:03:40.320 BECAUSE of. Fed independence BUT the fed had already sort 3:03:40.360 --> 3:03:42.680 of like opened a period of public comment. On this 3:03:42.720 --> 3:03:45.520 and this is SOMETHING that i think wash, is this 3:03:45.520 --> 3:03:47.000 this is. The way it's why it is important that 3:03:47.040 --> 3:03:49.959 this is happening after like the appointment Of Like, kevin 3:03:50.000 --> 3:03:52.840 walsh or like after he'd been, technically speaking before he'd, 3:03:52.840 --> 3:03:55.240 been confirmed but like after or like like before he'd been, 3:03:55.280 --> 3:03:57.240 sworn in but after like they knew he Was gonna 3:03:57.280 --> 3:04:00.400 he's going to get through because he is extremely friendly to. 3:04:00.560 --> 3:04:04.120 These groups this is also a thing that's that's sort 3:04:04.160 --> 3:04:06.160 of important for the crypto industry because one of the 3:04:06.160 --> 3:04:09.880 issues that crypto has is that actually trying to like 3:04:10.240 --> 3:04:14.840 move cryptocurrency around is just. A nightmare that's like one 3:04:14.840 --> 3:04:16.600 of the reasons why, no one no one actually like 3:04:16.760 --> 3:04:19.320 uses it to purchase things because it's it's such. A 3:04:19.320 --> 3:04:24.680 disaster and getting access To the fed's payment system suddenly 3:04:25.040 --> 3:04:27.160 kind of it gives you a sort of like you 3:04:27.320 --> 3:04:29.840 can Use the fed's, playmt patform which, actually works unlike 3:04:29.840 --> 3:04:33.200 theirs which. Do, not now the Other reason i'm bringing, 3:04:33.200 --> 3:04:36.000 this up so it's worth mentioning that even IF the 3:04:36.000 --> 3:04:38.360 fed were to allow them to create accounts With The, 3:04:38.360 --> 3:04:42.440 federal reserve they wouldn't for now have access to a 3:04:42.480 --> 3:04:45.680 lot of the services That The federal, Reserve provides like 3:04:45.680 --> 3:04:48.400 they wouldn't be able to do like they take, advantage 3:04:48.400 --> 3:04:51.000 of like repo injections and like stuff, Like that like 3:04:51.000 --> 3:04:52.320 a lot of a lot of the stuff THAT the 3:04:52.320 --> 3:04:56.760 fed uses to stabilize the, economy through like injecting money 3:04:56.760 --> 3:04:58.840 into the banking system and injecting bonds and stuff like 3:04:58.879 --> 3:05:01.240 that into the system they wouldn't have. Access to but 3:05:01.480 --> 3:05:04.840 it's pretty clear that these shripto groups wants that eventually 3:05:04.879 --> 3:05:07.879 because that gives them access to like the actual sort 3:05:07.920 --> 3:05:10.800 of banking capacity of the, federal government which allows them 3:05:10.840 --> 3:05:13.400 access to things like very low interest short term loans, 3:05:13.400 --> 3:05:16.240 and liquidity, et cetera, et cetera. Et cetera AND what 3:05:16.520 --> 3:05:18.440 i want to close on is is that this Is 3:05:18.720 --> 3:05:22.280 what worsh's, thing, is right he wants there to be 3:05:22.320 --> 3:05:25.280 more integration between this sort OF like i call, it, 3:05:25.400 --> 3:05:27.680 fintech right like the financial, tech things but, you know 3:05:27.720 --> 3:05:30.640 between these very fascist right wing. Tech companies they want 3:05:30.680 --> 3:05:33.000 them to be more and more directly integrated into the 3:05:33.000 --> 3:05:35.800 payment services and into the banking capacity OF the. US 3:05:35.920 --> 3:05:40.200 governments i mentioned earlier that fed wire moves again one 3:05:40.240 --> 3:05:44.400 point one quadrillion dollars. A. Year now this this is 3:05:44.400 --> 3:05:47.240 also what's very Dangerous about trump's people being in control 3:05:47.240 --> 3:05:50.279 Of The federal reserve because there is so much infrastructure 3:05:50.320 --> 3:05:53.760 inside Of The federal reserve that if it breaks even a, 3:05:53.840 --> 3:05:56.320 little bit things that we don't think of, at all 3:05:56.360 --> 3:05:58.680 like no one like literally no one thinks about like 3:05:59.000 --> 3:06:00.960 even even if you, do stuff you tend not to 3:06:00.959 --> 3:06:03.560 think about fed wire because it. Just works and this 3:06:03.680 --> 3:06:06.920 is less of a risk now that like doge gropers aren't. 3:06:07.000 --> 3:06:10.720 Running around but one of the Dangers of trump attempting 3:06:10.760 --> 3:06:12.840 to pay control Of The federal reserve is that his 3:06:12.920 --> 3:06:15.560 people will break something like this while doing something like 3:06:15.600 --> 3:06:18.720 attempting to integrate crypto companies. Into it and so that's 3:06:18.840 --> 3:06:20.760 just going to be a continuing risk that we all 3:06:20.800 --> 3:06:23.640 sort of have to deal with because tech companies And 3:06:23.680 --> 3:06:26.199 the trump administration and Now the president Of The federal 3:06:26.240 --> 3:06:31.879 reserve want to fuck with these systems on which everything 3:06:32.640 --> 3:06:34.440 in all of our lives depends on in ways that we. 3:06:34.560 --> 3:06:37.959 Never. See cool, all right. 3:06:38.440 --> 3:06:40.640 Speaking of the things that all of our lives, depend 3:06:40.680 --> 3:06:42.800 on here are the products and services that support. This 3:06:42.840 --> 3:06:43.680 podcast products. 3:06:43.680 --> 3:07:07.160 And services, That's, Right, leslie yeah. 3:06:56.840 --> 3:06:57.320 All right and. 3:06:57.600 --> 3:07:03.080 We're back so they have to unfortunately Talk, about wikipedia 3:07:03.160 --> 3:07:06.480 or at Least The. Wikimedia, FOUNDATION obviously i think everyone 3:07:06.520 --> 3:07:10.000 hears pretty big Fans, of wikipedia which is at this 3:07:10.040 --> 3:07:12.160 point has gone from the thing my teachers used to 3:07:12.200 --> 3:07:15.080 TELL me i couldn't use in projects, to like by any. 3:07:15.080 --> 3:07:18.480 Objective measure one of the most significant projects in the 3:07:18.520 --> 3:07:21.600 history of human knowledge and like storage of things that 3:07:21.680 --> 3:07:24.120 human beings know and. Have learned it's one of the 3:07:24.200 --> 3:07:27.160 last like gasps of the promise of The, old internet 3:07:27.280 --> 3:07:30.360 and it's also the thing that underpins all OF the 3:07:30.440 --> 3:07:34.199 ai chat Bots alongside reddit in one way, or another 3:07:34.240 --> 3:07:36.680 and the answers that they give People like wikipedia is 3:07:37.000 --> 3:07:40.280 incredibly IMPORTANT, for ai which, is why like With The 3:07:40.320 --> 3:07:45.000 wikimedia foundation has made deals like WITH the ai industry 3:07:45.040 --> 3:07:47.640 in order to get money for letting them Scrape, like 3:07:47.680 --> 3:07:50.960 wikipedia which is kind of part of Why The wikimedia 3:07:50.959 --> 3:07:54.360 foundation is currently doing really fucking. Well monetarily they've got 3:07:54.360 --> 3:07:57.520 a little under three hundred million dollars, in reserves which 3:07:57.560 --> 3:07:59.720 is about a year and a half worth of Money 3:07:59.720 --> 3:08:01.080 for so, first, off. 3:08:01.000 --> 3:08:04.320 Wait so you're saying those little banners that fill half 3:08:04.320 --> 3:08:07.879 of the screen EVERY time I use wikipedia, ARE like i. 3:08:07.840 --> 3:08:09.959 Don't want to actually, RIGHT now i do want to 3:08:09.959 --> 3:08:11.080 discourage people from Donating. 3:08:11.080 --> 3:08:13.920 To WIKIPEDIA historically i, have not but yes. 3:08:14.000 --> 3:08:16.680 You should, first, off no if you've been feeling bad about, 3:08:16.760 --> 3:08:20.440 not donating they don't currently. Need it they're okay, right 3:08:20.520 --> 3:08:22.680 now and they shouldn't get more of your money until 3:08:22.720 --> 3:08:24.520 they stop doing the Shit than i'm about to tell, 3:08:24.560 --> 3:08:27.360 you about because over the course of ten Days, in 3:08:27.480 --> 3:08:30.720 May The wikimedia foundation has engaged and what you could 3:08:30.800 --> 3:08:35.200 call major, union busting firing employees who are trying to 3:08:35.400 --> 3:08:40.840 organize their fellows and trying to like represent those values 3:08:40.879 --> 3:08:44.560 Within The. Wikimedia foundation and my source for main source 3:08:44.600 --> 3:08:47.360 for this is a pretty good Article That jake orlowitz 3:08:47.400 --> 3:08:50.160 put Out. On, medium recently big text anti labor playbook 3:08:50.160 --> 3:08:54.320 has Come, for wikipedia and it starts with the Firing 3:08:54.360 --> 3:08:57.640 in May Of. Brooke vibber she was the very first 3:08:57.640 --> 3:09:00.760 full time employee Of The wikimedia foundation and ITS, first 3:09:00.800 --> 3:09:04.120 cto the chief, technical officer and for more than, twenty 3:09:04.200 --> 3:09:07.920 years she's like one of the main engineers that Has 3:09:08.080 --> 3:09:12.080 made wikipedia, work right and she's also a, union organizer 3:09:12.120 --> 3:09:16.000 so she's a very. Important person she's the lead developer for, 3:09:16.120 --> 3:09:18.960 media wiki which is the platform That runs wikipedia and 3:09:19.320 --> 3:09:21.400 had been in since two thousand, and three and it 3:09:21.480 --> 3:09:23.480 is just a very big person both in terms Of 3:09:23.480 --> 3:09:25.560 how wikipedia works and in terms of like the way 3:09:25.600 --> 3:09:28.560 in which like they're unionizing efforts. Have gone she was 3:09:28.640 --> 3:09:32.920 laid off without any like real, costs given and then a, 3:09:32.920 --> 3:09:35.959 week Later on may, twenty First the foundation Disbanded The Community, 3:09:35.959 --> 3:09:38.879 tech team which consisted of five engineers and. A Manager 3:09:39.200 --> 3:09:42.160 The Community tech team had the job of Listening to, 3:09:42.240 --> 3:09:46.000 wikipedia editors which are number one The reason wikipedia, has 3:09:46.040 --> 3:09:49.840 content and number. Two, Volunteers right so these are regular 3:09:49.879 --> 3:09:53.199 employees whose job has been to Hear what wikipedia editors 3:09:53.240 --> 3:09:56.600 want and then help make sure that the salary employees 3:09:56.600 --> 3:09:59.520 on the team fulfill those desires and as much as that. 3:09:59.560 --> 3:09:59.600 Is. 3:09:59.640 --> 3:10:02.680 Possible right and so when you fire, these people you, 3:10:02.720 --> 3:10:05.000 are saying we don't really give a shit about the. 3:10:05.080 --> 3:10:08.800 Volunteer community and it's also noted in This and jake's 3:10:09.120 --> 3:10:12.720 article that most of those engineers were. Union, organizers now 3:10:12.720 --> 3:10:16.760 there is currently a solidarity Petition for. Wikipedia editor so 3:10:16.760 --> 3:10:19.360 if you are an Editor, OF wikipedia i think it 3:10:19.400 --> 3:10:22.640 would be great if you signed that. Solidarity petition this 3:10:22.800 --> 3:10:25.080 is the first time that editors have had to do 3:10:25.160 --> 3:10:29.400 an organized solidarity action with paid. Foundation staff, and yeah 3:10:29.400 --> 3:10:32.320 it's a. Whole thing the salaried staff there are not 3:10:32.440 --> 3:10:33.039 on one side. 3:10:33.040 --> 3:10:33.800 About this this is. 3:10:33.879 --> 3:10:38.400 Extremely controversial it has a lot to do with the 3:10:38.400 --> 3:10:41.520 fact that a number of the, old guard including you 3:10:41.520 --> 3:10:44.080 know the folks who are a number of like some 3:10:44.120 --> 3:10:46.600 of the oldest People at wikipedia have a kind of 3:10:46.680 --> 3:10:50.640 libertarian bit, to them you. Might say And in january 3:10:50.640 --> 3:10:53.879 twentieth of twenty, Twenty Six bernadette behan was RECRUITED as 3:10:53.959 --> 3:10:59.160 ceo of. The foundation and her prior career included WORK 3:10:59.160 --> 3:11:02.120 At jp Morgan And, lehman brothers as well as a 3:11:02.160 --> 3:11:03.120 spokesperson role FOR. 3:11:03.120 --> 3:11:06.680 The Nsc National. Security council she was On The. Obama 3:11:06.720 --> 3:11:08.880 foundation she WAS The us Ambassador. 3:11:08.920 --> 3:11:09.200 Of chile. 3:11:09.600 --> 3:11:12.640 Oh great this is someone who comes from a background 3:11:12.640 --> 3:11:16.600 in which fucking with union attempts are very like normal. 3:11:16.640 --> 3:11:20.640 And accepted the union's demands are. Not extreme they would 3:11:20.640 --> 3:11:23.640 not have any meaningful impact whatsoever on the pile of 3:11:23.640 --> 3:11:26.960 Cash that. Wikipedia has there's no excuse For The wikipedia foundation. 3:11:27.040 --> 3:11:28.760 Doing this you should be pissed at them and not 3:11:28.840 --> 3:11:31.440 give them more money until they make. Things, right anyway that's. 3:11:31.480 --> 3:11:33.520 My opinion i'm, done nice. 3:11:33.840 --> 3:11:37.120 All right so we need to update once again the 3:11:37.440 --> 3:11:42.240 situation With The united states War. In IRAN the usa 3:11:42.400 --> 3:11:45.960 this week Again bombed iran and violation, of ceasefire calling 3:11:46.000 --> 3:11:50.520 it a self defense strike that means still a VIOLATION. 3:11:50.600 --> 3:11:55.320 Of cesfa the negotiations, are ongoing both sides who remain. 3:11:55.400 --> 3:11:59.520 Longwaar pot there have been various leaks and reports of 3:11:59.600 --> 3:12:04.680 where where negotiations. Were at one Suggested that iran would 3:12:04.800 --> 3:12:08.160 exchange freeing up its assets and other sanctions relief for 3:12:08.720 --> 3:12:13.039 removing highly a. Rich Geranium IRANIAN state tv leaked details 3:12:13.040 --> 3:12:16.120 of a suppose memorandum, of understanding which would be like 3:12:16.600 --> 3:12:18.760 the meurmorandum that they would sign in order to, say, 3:12:18.760 --> 3:12:20.920 like hey let's get back at. The table, until then 3:12:21.240 --> 3:12:23.200 these are our rules, kind of this is the rules 3:12:23.400 --> 3:12:26.920 we're operating underwhere WE negotiate themu said the blockade would 3:12:26.959 --> 3:12:29.440 end in the straight would, be reopened BUT the usa has. 3:12:29.480 --> 3:12:31.039 Denied THAT MoU. 3:12:31.160 --> 3:12:33.000 I don't want to go into the blow by the 3:12:33.080 --> 3:12:35.560 blow of like leak to denied things because it's just 3:12:35.600 --> 3:12:35.920 a waste. 3:12:35.959 --> 3:12:36.480 Of time none of. 3:12:36.520 --> 3:12:39.879 That's real it's all stock. Market manipulation like it's all. 3:12:40.240 --> 3:12:42.680 That's sorry that's literally my. Next. 3:12:42.680 --> 3:12:46.160 Sentence, yeah yeah it doesn't stop, people killing it doesn't stop. 3:12:46.160 --> 3:12:48.520 People dying it does change the, oil price and it 3:12:48.560 --> 3:12:51.200 does change the. Stock MARKET and i think if we 3:12:51.240 --> 3:12:55.520 report on this, too credibly we miss the fact that 3:12:55.360 --> 3:12:57.720 that that like that is the, real impact and that 3:12:57.879 --> 3:13:00.800 is how we should frame this in our not do 3:13:00.800 --> 3:13:03.240 the baraquavied thing of rushing up eight bullet points of 3:13:03.240 --> 3:13:04.440 something that someone told you would. 3:13:04.440 --> 3:13:05.520 Never, consider, Why. 3:13:05.440 --> 3:13:07.840 Well james you will never have a career at actious with. 3:13:07.879 --> 3:13:10.280 That, ATTITUDE yes i. 3:13:10.240 --> 3:13:13.120 Think that that bridge has, Been, burned garrison but my 3:13:13.160 --> 3:13:15.039 path in life has been lit by the bridges. Side 3:13:15.040 --> 3:13:18.360 burns ONE thing i do want to note Is that 3:13:18.400 --> 3:13:23.240 trump has attempted to appears to want to tie a 3:13:23.320 --> 3:13:26.200 piece seal to having other countries in the region Signed The. 3:13:26.240 --> 3:13:29.959 Abraham Accords abraham accords you're not familiar twenty twenty agreement 3:13:30.040 --> 3:13:34.360 in WHICH, The, uae Bahrain, Later sudana morocco normalized Relations. With, 3:13:34.440 --> 3:13:37.640 israel interesting that is unlikely. 3:13:37.760 --> 3:13:38.640 To happen. 3:13:40.959 --> 3:13:43.000 You Killed. The eyatlin now you think they're going to 3:13:43.080 --> 3:13:45.160 Sign The? Abraham, record like what are we? Doing? 3:13:45.200 --> 3:13:47.760 HERE yeah i mean it's just going through a wish list. 3:13:47.800 --> 3:13:50.760 OF shit i guess that he or people close to. 3:13:50.840 --> 3:13:50.960 Him. 3:13:51.000 --> 3:13:55.520 Wan, Yeah meanwhile iran is continuing To Attack Southern curtis. 3:13:55.600 --> 3:13:57.640 DAN right i think this offer is a very clear 3:13:57.720 --> 3:14:02.080 vision Of what kurdish group could expect if they decide 3:14:02.240 --> 3:14:04.760 to alli WITH the us and serve as a, ground 3:14:04.800 --> 3:14:07.680 force and of course there are very many reasonable reasons 3:14:07.680 --> 3:14:09.320 that they would want to, do that right to include 3:14:09.400 --> 3:14:13.600 liberating themselves from an. Oppressive regime But The, united states 3:14:13.680 --> 3:14:16.000 as it has done every, other time would probably abandon 3:14:16.040 --> 3:14:18.720 them and they would be subject. To this they are 3:14:18.720 --> 3:14:21.600 already subject to this just because of rumors that they 3:14:21.680 --> 3:14:26.280 were associating With The. United states, this week one strike 3:14:26.320 --> 3:14:32.279 injured Nine, pak peshmerger several of them very. Critically injured talking, 3:14:32.280 --> 3:14:36.640 of strikes let's Pivot, to Nigeria where africom is claiming 3:14:36.720 --> 3:14:39.360 its strikes have killed one hundred and seventy five OR more. 3:14:39.400 --> 3:14:42.640 ISIS members i KNOW that i am like the lonely voice. 3:14:42.680 --> 3:14:46.720 On this THE second i and THE second S in 3:14:46.879 --> 3:14:50.160 isis Stand for iraq And al Sham or Iraq. 3:14:50.200 --> 3:14:53.880 And, syria, yep, yeah, yes, yes yes it's. 3:14:53.959 --> 3:14:57.760 CONSTANTLY Frustrated isis, corussian province that's not what. It Means 3:14:57.840 --> 3:14:59.600 Isis west africa not what. 3:14:59.640 --> 3:15:02.640 It means so It's the islamic state Of irakanow Sham. 3:15:02.720 --> 3:15:08.040 In africa, like, yeah incredible it's now made. 3:15:08.160 --> 3:15:09.520 Into, you like but it. 3:15:09.480 --> 3:15:13.199 Would be like if there was Like a christian fundamentalist 3:15:13.440 --> 3:15:15.480 Like The Georgia baptist school, of. 3:15:15.480 --> 3:15:16.440 Like yeah. 3:15:18.240 --> 3:15:22.800 Like The united States, of America The united States, Of, America, japan. 3:15:23.760 --> 3:15:26.440 Yeah, come on not what the. 3:15:26.480 --> 3:15:28.480 Word, MEANS yeah i. 3:15:28.520 --> 3:15:30.959 Mean yeah in The new, CHARACTERISM doc i think they 3:15:31.040 --> 3:15:33.560 almost exclusively referred to it AS Isis. 3:15:33.280 --> 3:15:37.080 K yeah So that's, corussan, province right which again Not 3:15:37.160 --> 3:15:39.440 in iraq Or else sham in what we Would call. 3:15:39.520 --> 3:15:42.800 Afghanistan today, it's fine. It's, fine yeah this is where we're. 3:15:42.800 --> 3:15:45.320 Out with the fucking acronym is not, An acronym it's just. 3:15:45.360 --> 3:15:50.640 A word i, GUESS now i. Remain, angry meanwhile Fighting 3:15:50.720 --> 3:15:53.920 Between boko HARAM and iswap Is what i'm going to. 3:15:53.959 --> 3:15:56.680 Be using And like chad continues to threaten even worse 3:15:56.720 --> 3:16:01.280 famine in, the region And hex seth is claiming that 3:16:01.360 --> 3:16:05.280 these strikes were part of a campaign To. Defend CHRISTIANS and. 3:16:05.320 --> 3:16:07.600 I just want to know one more thing to give 3:16:07.600 --> 3:16:10.360 you a sense of how committed this. President is maybe 3:16:10.360 --> 3:16:13.720 a year ago he heard the Call Of nigerian christians 3:16:14.080 --> 3:16:18.920 who were being targeted and KILLED by Isis, in nigeria and, He, 3:16:19.040 --> 3:16:21.680 SAID pete i Want The war department to focus on 3:16:21.800 --> 3:16:23.879 ensuring that we do everything we can to Protect. 3:16:23.879 --> 3:16:26.119 Those christians partnerships like. 3:16:26.080 --> 3:16:28.440 That can take time behind, the scenes but he never wavered, 3:16:28.440 --> 3:16:30.560 on it and we got the assets there and over the, 3:16:30.600 --> 3:16:32.560 last month and there hasn't been much coverage, of this 3:16:32.959 --> 3:16:36.800 WE killed isis number Two, in nigeria who's most responsible 3:16:36.800 --> 3:16:39.600 For killing christians and trying to TARGET the, us homeland 3:16:40.120 --> 3:16:42.640 and have since because of the intel we gathered killed 3:16:42.840 --> 3:16:46.320 HUNDREDS of isis members who were targeting And killing Christians, 3:16:46.400 --> 3:16:47.800 in nigeria creating a whole new. 3:16:47.840 --> 3:16:49.840 Opportunity there so there's a lot of. 3:16:49.760 --> 3:16:51.959 Things we do that the media pays, attention to and 3:16:52.040 --> 3:16:54.560 a lot of things That the president Empowers the department 3:16:54.560 --> 3:16:57.080 to do on behalf Of the american people that he 3:16:57.120 --> 3:16:57.680 deserves great. 3:16:57.720 --> 3:16:59.760 Credit for so here we are paying. 3:16:59.800 --> 3:17:00.000 IT time. 3:17:00.560 --> 3:17:04.240 Esp asked you will notice That the african claim of 3:17:04.240 --> 3:17:08.480 one hundred and seventy five is. Not, Hundreds however hexth 3:17:08.560 --> 3:17:12.160 in that statement. Claimed hundreds maybe we are, missing something 3:17:12.440 --> 3:17:14.720 or maybe he's referring To the december twenty twenty five 3:17:14.800 --> 3:17:17.000 strikes and including all of those and rolling them. Up 3:17:17.000 --> 3:17:20.400 together it's of course worth pointing Out that nigerian government 3:17:20.440 --> 3:17:22.800 has pushed back on this narrative that these strikes are To. 3:17:22.800 --> 3:17:27.200 Defend christians There are christian Bishops in nigeria who have 3:17:27.240 --> 3:17:31.039 pushed back on this, narrative because as With many islamist, 3:17:31.120 --> 3:17:34.360 terror groups the majority of people these people have killed Are. Not, 3:17:34.480 --> 3:17:37.120 Christians right many of Them, are muslims many of them 3:17:37.120 --> 3:17:40.600 and people of various. Other Faiths look boko. Haram right 3:17:40.640 --> 3:17:45.400 the name roughly translates To like western style education. Is forbidden, it's, 3:17:45.440 --> 3:17:49.039 Haram right like they're going after people who are in 3:17:49.120 --> 3:17:52.920 that community who have Sought out. Western. Education like there, are, 3:17:53.400 --> 3:17:55.879 many many MANY instances i could say of these People killing. 3:17:55.920 --> 3:17:59.200 Muslim people hegcess wants to make this, a crusade and 3:17:59.240 --> 3:18:02.120 that's just not how things are on. The ground it's 3:18:02.160 --> 3:18:06.199 a very simplistic understanding of a much more. Complicated reality, 3:18:06.680 --> 3:18:09.959 but yeah that IS what i Have on nigeria. This 3:18:10.040 --> 3:18:12.199 week he is right THAT the us Media covers africa 3:18:12.280 --> 3:18:14.840 less much lesson is should but trying to do our. 3:18:14.879 --> 3:18:19.440 Best here we have one, more story big story before, 3:18:19.560 --> 3:18:23.720 We close but first we should Mention the republican Primary 3:18:23.760 --> 3:18:28.520 in Texas. On tuesday After gaining trump's endorsement, Last Week 3:18:28.600 --> 3:18:32.080 Texas Attorney General ken paxton won the runoff election In 3:18:32.120 --> 3:18:36.480 The republican senate. Primary race paxton won by almost four hundred, 3:18:36.560 --> 3:18:41.160 thousand votes beating the fourth Term Incumbent Republican Senator john 3:18:41.240 --> 3:18:44.800 cornin at sixty four percent to thirty six percent of. 3:18:44.840 --> 3:18:47.720 The vote this is the second week in a Row 3:18:47.760 --> 3:18:51.080 where trump has successfully intervened to steer a congressional primary 3:18:51.120 --> 3:18:57.400 win away from incumbents and toward staunch. Mega loyalists paxton 3:18:57.400 --> 3:19:00.560 will now go Up Against tall rico in the general Election. 3:19:01.360 --> 3:19:04.959 This november should We mention paxton Calling ta? Rico? 3:19:05.000 --> 3:19:09.560 Transgender, YEAH yeah i mean it's Not, just Paxton It's. 3:19:09.560 --> 3:19:10.680 Miller miller. 3:19:12.240 --> 3:19:16.760 Yeah yeah there seems to be A whole gop move 3:19:17.000 --> 3:19:21.400 to brand him as trans potentially as part of THEIR 3:19:21.520 --> 3:19:25.080 which i kind of see is some degree, of DESPERATION 3:19:25.120 --> 3:19:29.039 although i can't Really imagine paxton losing, this election so 3:19:29.120 --> 3:19:32.240 maybe it's just that they're completely out of other Ideas. 3:19:32.160 --> 3:19:35.680 And paxson does seem to have more Aliabilities. Than cornyn, 3:19:35.840 --> 3:19:37.840 was sure But He's, he's paxton and This. 3:19:37.959 --> 3:19:39.200 Is texas you. 3:19:39.200 --> 3:19:44.039 Have to take this guy has been charged with crimes 3:19:44.080 --> 3:19:46.120 AND the gop tried to get rid Of him. 3:19:46.320 --> 3:19:47.359 Texas refuses. 3:19:48.959 --> 3:19:54.080 ABSOLUTELY not, I mean i never am putting my Faith 3:19:54.120 --> 3:19:57.760 in texas as as we. All, know yeah but IF 3:19:57.840 --> 3:20:01.760 if i were to set up, A pairing. Tallarico v 3:20:02.040 --> 3:20:05.840 paxton pairing is THE one i, would pick as Opposed to. 3:20:06.040 --> 3:20:11.920 Tallarico V the cornyn or, You know crockett. V. V, Paxton. 3:20:12.320 --> 3:20:16.560 Sure i'm not gonna say there's no Way that. Tallerica 3:20:16.600 --> 3:20:20.360 wins it would be an Astonishing leg it would be a. Really, 3:20:20.800 --> 3:20:23.720 Yeah look i'll come on here AND admit i, was 3:20:23.760 --> 3:20:26.880 Wrong and i'll Be, TH yeah i just been too 3:20:26.920 --> 3:20:27.520 long Living. 3:20:27.560 --> 3:20:30.879 In texas see this as like the person who's been the, Most, 3:20:30.879 --> 3:20:34.959 consistent like assuming there's an election that even sort of, 3:20:34.959 --> 3:20:36.879 functions normally this is gonna be like a two thousand 3:20:36.879 --> 3:20:37.160 and eight. 3:20:37.200 --> 3:20:39.480 Style wave they're not like they're not Gonna. 3:20:39.480 --> 3:20:42.320 Win texas And until i'm eve, Been wrong i've been 3:20:42.320 --> 3:20:44.200 saying this the Entire time i've been doing, the Show 3:20:44.240 --> 3:20:45.040 and i've been right every. 3:20:45.080 --> 3:20:49.040 Single time, so like prove, Me. 3:20:49.080 --> 3:20:52.480 Wrong texas, you KNOW when i see a Flip for, 3:20:52.560 --> 3:20:54.000 Texas coming i'll call. 3:20:54.040 --> 3:20:55.400 It OUT but i don't. 3:20:55.480 --> 3:20:58.880 Right, Now, nope, Yeah yeah i'm not saying it'll never 3:20:59.040 --> 3:21:03.440 happen because ghipographically, probably well at some point, like less 3:21:03.480 --> 3:21:08.120 they really succeeded their, genocide dreams but that ain't happening 3:21:08.200 --> 3:21:09.000 now on. 3:21:09.120 --> 3:21:10.039 This, cycle. 3:21:11.680 --> 3:21:14.680 Finally let's talk about another one of these, redistricting cases 3:21:15.120 --> 3:21:18.720 and one related To The supreme court ruling On The Voting. 3:21:18.800 --> 3:21:24.720 Rights Act, on tuesday a federal court Blocked in alabama 3:21:24.800 --> 3:21:28.280 congressional house map Drawn by republicans in twenty. TWENTY three 3:21:29.080 --> 3:21:31.120 a three judge panel found that the drawn map was 3:21:31.280 --> 3:21:36.080 intentionally discriminatory based. On race just two, weeks Ago The 3:21:36.120 --> 3:21:38.480 supreme court cleared the way for this same map to 3:21:38.600 --> 3:21:43.360 be used in the twenty twenty six. Midterm Elections alabama 3:21:43.400 --> 3:21:47.520 republicans have since labeled the district court panel activist. To 3:21:47.600 --> 3:21:50.560 judges it's worth taking a look at who these. JUDGES 3:21:50.560 --> 3:21:54.240 are i think The eleventh circuit judge was first appointed 3:21:54.240 --> 3:21:57.520 to a district court By One. Ronald reagan the other 3:21:57.600 --> 3:22:04.120 two district judges were Appointed, by trump and this exact 3:22:04.200 --> 3:22:08.560 same three judge panel had already found this exact same 3:22:08.680 --> 3:22:13.600 map to be intentionally racially discriminatory. Years ago this new 3:22:13.680 --> 3:22:17.480 district court order also rejects the state's claims that the 3:22:17.520 --> 3:22:20.920 twenty twenty three map was just drawn, with partisan not. 3:22:21.200 --> 3:22:24.320 Racial intent write, in quote the purpose of the twenty 3:22:24.360 --> 3:22:27.560 twenty three plan was to distribute black voters across districts 3:22:28.080 --> 3:22:31.920 to dilute, their votes at least in part because they, are. 3:22:32.000 --> 3:22:35.720 Black unquote this latest ruling is part of a specific 3:22:35.760 --> 3:22:39.360 redistricting battle that has stretched on for, five Years with 3:22:39.440 --> 3:22:43.440 republican maps being repeatedly, struck, down, appealed redrawn and struck. 3:22:43.480 --> 3:22:47.360 Down Again now i've seen some confusion on the exact 3:22:47.400 --> 3:22:50.280 series of, events here like What The supreme court has 3:22:50.440 --> 3:22:53.560 ruled on which maps are. Being USED so i want 3:22:53.600 --> 3:22:55.920 to just briefly go over the sequence EVENTS as i. 3:22:56.000 --> 3:22:59.880 Understand it in twenty, twenty one a district court ruled 3:23:00.200 --> 3:23:04.760 a new map drawn after the twenty twenty census Likely 3:23:04.879 --> 3:23:08.120 violated section two Of The Voting. Rights Act The supreme 3:23:08.120 --> 3:23:11.720 court upheld this decision in twenty, twenty three barring the 3:23:11.800 --> 3:23:15.200 use of this twenty twenty. One map After The supreme, 3:23:15.200 --> 3:23:19.240 court Decision the alabama legislature adopted a new map in twenty, 3:23:19.240 --> 3:23:22.400 twenty three but a federal court again found that this 3:23:22.600 --> 3:23:26.320 newer twenty twenty three map also Likely violated, section two 3:23:26.800 --> 3:23:29.960 And The supreme court let a ban on the use 3:23:30.040 --> 3:23:33.520 of this map go through by declining to block, the 3:23:33.680 --> 3:23:36.039 order but they did not rule on the, map itself 3:23:36.760 --> 3:23:39.600 so the court appointed a special master to draw A 3:23:39.640 --> 3:23:43.920 New alabama house map to use. Going forward in twenty, 3:23:43.959 --> 3:23:48.200 twenty five following, a Trial The district court officially Ruled 3:23:48.520 --> 3:23:51.879 that alabama's twenty twenty three congressional map did in Fact 3:23:51.959 --> 3:23:54.840 violate section two Of The Voting, rights act finding the 3:23:54.840 --> 3:23:58.200 map was quote an intentional effort to Dilute black alabama's 3:23:58.280 --> 3:24:02.359 voting strength and evade the unambiguous requirements of court orders 3:24:02.400 --> 3:24:02.959 standing in. 3:24:03.000 --> 3:24:03.560 The, way. 3:24:05.000 --> 3:24:08.039 Importantly The supreme court had yet to rule on the 3:24:08.080 --> 3:24:12.640 actual twenty twenty three. Map itself After The district court's 3:24:12.720 --> 3:24:15.720 ruling in twenty, Twenty five alabama did appeal To The, 3:24:15.800 --> 3:24:20.519 supreme court but they delayed consideration until After the. Louisiana 3:24:20.600 --> 3:24:24.520 case as, we know that ruling effectively nullified Much of 3:24:24.560 --> 3:24:27.680 section two Of The Voting, rights act establishing that intent 3:24:27.800 --> 3:24:31.039 of racial discrimination must, be shown not just discrimination as 3:24:31.080 --> 3:24:34.640 an effect in the drawing of. Voting districts but after, 3:24:34.680 --> 3:24:38.160 That ruling alabama Asked The supreme court again for a 3:24:38.240 --> 3:24:42.040 quick appeals decision before the state's scheduled primary and to 3:24:42.080 --> 3:24:44.879 put the lower court's order barring the use of the 3:24:44.879 --> 3:24:48.840 twenty twenty three map on hold considering their recent ruling 3:24:48.840 --> 3:24:49.000 In the. 3:24:49.000 --> 3:24:50.680 Louisiana case And. 3:24:50.640 --> 3:24:54.720 On, may Eleventh The supreme Court granted alabama's emergency shadow, 3:24:54.720 --> 3:24:57.879 docket appeal vacated the order blocking the use of the 3:24:57.920 --> 3:25:01.440 twenty twenty three, district map and sent the case back 3:25:01.520 --> 3:25:04.760 to the lower court for further review in light Of the. 3:25:04.800 --> 3:25:11.520 Louisiana ruling so that's, A lot but remember that the 3:25:11.800 --> 3:25:15.840 district court already ruled that the twenty twenty three map 3:25:15.959 --> 3:25:19.480 intentionally discriminated based, on race the veried requirement set By 3:25:19.520 --> 3:25:23.160 The Supreme court's. Louisiana ruling so when the district court 3:25:23.200 --> 3:25:26.920 reconsidered the case this, past week they found That the 3:25:27.000 --> 3:25:32.080 louisiana decision only strengthened their original ruling That THE alabama 3:25:32.120 --> 3:25:36.960 gop map was intentionally discriminatory and deluded. Black voters this 3:25:37.000 --> 3:25:40.000 is pretty Much what sort wrote in her dissent when 3:25:40.000 --> 3:25:42.879 she argued that there was quote unquote no reason to 3:25:43.000 --> 3:25:45.280 send the case back to the district court because that 3:25:45.320 --> 3:25:49.560 court had already Concluded that alabama quote violated the Fourteenth 3:25:49.600 --> 3:25:52.680 the medment by intentionally diluting the votes of black Voters. 3:25:52.720 --> 3:25:57.640 In alabama that constitutional finding of intentional discrimination is independent 3:25:57.720 --> 3:26:01.160 of and unaffected by an any of the legal issues 3:26:01.360 --> 3:26:05.640 discussed In the louisiana. Case unquote so that's essentially. What 3:26:05.680 --> 3:26:08.840 happened that's essentially What The district. Court found the three 3:26:08.920 --> 3:26:13.160 judge panel also rebuffed opposition to the court ordered Map 3:26:13.160 --> 3:26:15.960 in alabama on the basis that it bears similarity to 3:26:16.000 --> 3:26:18.960 the map at the center Of the, louisiana case writing 3:26:19.000 --> 3:26:22.280 that it's their understanding Of The supreme court's recent ruling 3:26:22.680 --> 3:26:27.920 that race as a districting criterion cannot be used when, 3:26:28.000 --> 3:26:33.120 drawing maps but that, quote unquote relevant racial data may 3:26:33.200 --> 3:26:36.879 be considered for a, lawful purpose like checking that the 3:26:37.000 --> 3:26:41.600 drawn maps Comply With Voting rights. Act precedent it's not 3:26:41.640 --> 3:26:43.280 that racial data is used in the drawing, of maps 3:26:43.360 --> 3:26:45.840 but after the maps, are drawn they can be checked 3:26:45.879 --> 3:26:49.320 against racial data to make sure they Comply With Voting rights. 3:26:49.360 --> 3:26:53.760 Act Law The district court Wrote that louisiana's black population 3:26:54.160 --> 3:26:58.680 is not as concentrated As, in alabama requiring a black 3:26:58.720 --> 3:27:02.560 majority district to s through multiple metropolitan areas to scoop up, 3:27:02.560 --> 3:27:07.040 black voters Whereas in alabama it's quote unquote relatively easy 3:27:07.080 --> 3:27:10.160 to draw a reasonably configured majority. 3:27:10.200 --> 3:27:10.480 Black. 3:27:10.520 --> 3:27:15.280 District quote we are unsurprised that race blind relief is 3:27:15.320 --> 3:27:19.360 available here but was. Unavailable, there here it has been 3:27:19.400 --> 3:27:23.160 consistently obvious to us from our visual assessment of the 3:27:23.200 --> 3:27:27.800 geographic Dispersion of alabama's black population and statistics about black 3:27:27.840 --> 3:27:30.959 population centers in, the state that black Voters in alabama 3:27:31.040 --> 3:27:37.240 are relatively geographically. Compact unquote, so essentially it's actually pretty 3:27:37.240 --> 3:27:40.400 difficult to draw a map that separates out the black 3:27:40.440 --> 3:27:42.880 population to be a minority. 3:27:42.440 --> 3:27:43.119 Force in all. 3:27:43.200 --> 3:27:48.240 Voting districts as for, demonstrating intent the district court found 3:27:48.320 --> 3:27:53.359 That the alabama legislature only enacted the discriminatory map after 3:27:53.560 --> 3:27:57.640 knowing it would dilute the impact of, black voters and 3:27:57.800 --> 3:28:00.960 by having prior knowledge of the district print, racial impact 3:28:01.240 --> 3:28:04.480 including from federal, court findings and then passing the, map 3:28:04.560 --> 3:28:10.160 anyway that itself. Shows, intent furthermore the judges wrote that 3:28:10.520 --> 3:28:15.080 the cases quote enormous record contains no evidence of a 3:28:15.120 --> 3:28:19.120 partisan motive unquote in the drawing of the twenty twenty. 3:28:19.160 --> 3:28:22.640 Three map i'll quote again from the. Recent order quote 3:28:23.120 --> 3:28:27.080 in the, simplest terms the sequence and substance of extraordinary 3:28:27.160 --> 3:28:31.640 legislative events against the backdrop of the, legislature's knowledge compels 3:28:31.720 --> 3:28:35.119 us to conclude that the legislature doubled down on racially 3:28:35.160 --> 3:28:39.080 discriminatory vote dilution after we And The supreme court found 3:28:39.120 --> 3:28:43.120 that it was racially discriminatory. Vote dilution the same evidence 3:28:43.160 --> 3:28:45.760 leaves us no room to conclude that when the legislature did, 3:28:45.800 --> 3:28:49.560 all this it had party politics. In mind the only 3:28:49.600 --> 3:28:54.120 available intent evidence tells us that consideration of race were 3:28:54.200 --> 3:28:58.600 the key. Reason unquote So the Court ordered alabama to 3:28:58.680 --> 3:29:01.680 use the alternative court ordered map already used in the 3:29:01.680 --> 3:29:05.000 twenty twenty four election for the Rest of alabama's twenty 3:29:05.040 --> 3:29:09.039 twenty six, congressional elections after which the legislature can then 3:29:09.160 --> 3:29:13.640 create a new congressional. District plan and, of Course the 3:29:13.640 --> 3:29:16.360 State of alabama has already appealed this To The, supreme 3:29:16.400 --> 3:29:19.880 court and we will wait and see if they decide 3:29:19.879 --> 3:29:20.119 to hear. 3:29:20.160 --> 3:29:22.800 This, case yeah this will continue to be a thing 3:29:22.840 --> 3:29:24.119 we're going to have to, report on and we, should 3:29:24.160 --> 3:29:27.280 say for some. Time, rightly yes this is going to 3:29:27.400 --> 3:29:30.840 result in. Massive, changes yeah we will continue to. 3:29:30.840 --> 3:29:33.440 COVER them i guess it is interesting that this is 3:29:33.480 --> 3:29:37.240 the First time i've seen a court really like Interpret 3:29:37.600 --> 3:29:41.000 the louisiana ruling for like another case to a like 3:29:41.040 --> 3:29:43.200 this is this is like an over seventy page. Like, 3:29:43.560 --> 3:29:46.879 ruling yeah and they discuss like Where the louisiana case 3:29:47.000 --> 3:29:49.600 does apply and where, it doesn't and what it means 3:29:49.640 --> 3:29:54.080 to quote unquote consider race in the evaluation of. These 3:29:54.120 --> 3:29:57.360 districts and it would, be interesting, you know If The 3:29:57.360 --> 3:29:59.480 supreme court has had to, hear this if they're going 3:29:59.520 --> 3:30:03.000 to a this court's interpretation of, their ruling or if 3:30:03.000 --> 3:30:06.000 they're going, to, say no you got it wrong and 3:30:06.440 --> 3:30:09.760 strike down. Their interpretation but, you know, right now they 3:30:10.080 --> 3:30:13.920 did really outline like what it means to use race 3:30:14.080 --> 3:30:16.560 in reference to, these districts and how it cannot be 3:30:16.640 --> 3:30:19.600 used in the drawing of, the, district right but that 3:30:19.640 --> 3:30:22.800 it can be considered to make sure that it complies. 3:30:22.320 --> 3:30:22.800 With the voting. 3:30:22.840 --> 3:30:24.280 Right sack and that does not mean that it was 3:30:24.400 --> 3:30:27.520 used as a instrument in the actual drawing of. 3:30:27.560 --> 3:30:27.640 The. 3:30:27.680 --> 3:30:31.520 District YEAH and i think that that specificity is an 3:30:31.560 --> 3:30:32.480 interesting part of the. 3:30:32.560 --> 3:30:32.720 New. 3:30:32.800 --> 3:30:37.560 RULING definitely i think like, it's if like Any Other supreme, court, 3:30:38.120 --> 3:30:41.160 decision right things tend to sort of bounce around before they're. 3:30:41.280 --> 3:30:41.600 Entirely. 3:30:41.640 --> 3:30:44.959 Clarified YEAH like, i said this is like a a 3:30:45.040 --> 3:30:47.440 five year, long case all stemming from the twenty. Twenty, 3:30:47.520 --> 3:30:50.440 census yeah and the maps That the republicans have tried 3:30:50.480 --> 3:30:54.480 to tried to draw, after that, which which as, Multiple 3:30:54.480 --> 3:30:57.120 Courts supreme court And The district court have, already INCLUDED 3:30:57.840 --> 3:31:02.240 the gop tried to intentionally dilute the votes Of black, 3:31:02.240 --> 3:31:04.920 alabama's right and because of the way that the black 3:31:05.040 --> 3:31:08.720 population is Concentrated, in alabama there needs to be an 3:31:08.720 --> 3:31:12.080 intentional effort to, do, That right whereas In this, louisiana 3:31:12.160 --> 3:31:14.400 case the drawing of districts had, you know had to 3:31:14.440 --> 3:31:17.080 like looked more gerrymandered to create these black, majority districts 3:31:17.080 --> 3:31:20.560 Whereas in alabama's case that's not. Really necessary and, in 3:31:20.560 --> 3:31:23.400 fact a lot of the maps that were referenced in 3:31:23.440 --> 3:31:28.560 testimony were like. Algorithmically, generated huh. That's interesting it wasn't 3:31:28.680 --> 3:31:33.040 like then you get the crayons out and like through 3:31:33.040 --> 3:31:35.600 all Lines Like calbridge jerry did back in. The, day, no, 3:31:36.280 --> 3:31:38.560 GREAT great i. Love that i'm sure we can expect 3:31:38.600 --> 3:31:43.520 much more wonderful algorithmically. Generated election, well, Yeah content what 3:31:43.640 --> 3:31:44.200 a time to. 3:31:44.240 --> 3:31:48.039 Be alive if you want to email Us Cool, Zone 3:31:48.080 --> 3:31:51.440 tips Proton, dot me hold off. For now if you're With, 3:31:51.520 --> 3:31:55.120 The ferrets i've heard from The blackfooted, ferrah COMMUNITY and 3:31:55.280 --> 3:31:58.240 I feel i do appreciate that unless you can get 3:31:58.280 --> 3:31:59.880 me on one Of those ferre accounts in which gives 3:31:59.879 --> 3:32:01.680 me these email put a transcirl on. 3:32:01.760 --> 3:32:05.959 Your couch we reported, The news we reported. 3:32:05.959 --> 3:32:06.800 The, News. 3:32:12.600 --> 3:32:15.760 Hey we'll Be back monday with more episodes every week 3:32:15.840 --> 3:32:17.160 from now until the heat death of. 3:32:17.160 --> 3:32:18.640 The universe it. 3:32:18.600 --> 3:32:20.960 Could happen here is a production Of Cool. Zone media 3:32:21.160 --> 3:32:25.000 for more podcasts From Cool, zone media visit Our website coolzonemedia, 3:32:25.080 --> 3:32:27.880 dot com or check us out On the, iHeartRadio App, 3:32:27.959 --> 3:32:31.520 apple podcasts or wherever you listen. To podcasts you can 3:32:31.560 --> 3:32:33.960 now find sources where it could, happen here listed directly in. 3:32:34.040 --> 3:32:35.640 Episode descriptions thanks. 3:32:35.680 --> 3:32:36.199 For listening