WEBVTT - Radio Better Offline: Mia Sato & Dave Lee

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<v Speaker 1>Also media, locally hated, globally loathed, chosen by God and

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<v Speaker 1>perfected by science. I'm ed Zeitron and this is Better

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<v Speaker 1>Offline Today. I'm joined by an incredible duo. We've got

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<v Speaker 1>Mia Sarto of The Verge and Dave Lee of Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 1>Thank you both for joining me in the studio.

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<v Speaker 2>Happy to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>So before we go any further, of course, please subscribe

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<v Speaker 1>to the News let the premium one as well. Please

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<v Speaker 1>help me, and for a limited time you can buy

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<v Speaker 1>a Better Offline challenge coin. A bunch of other staff

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<v Speaker 1>links in the episode notes. But you two, I'm so

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<v Speaker 1>excited to have you here because you were two of

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<v Speaker 1>my favorite opinion columnists as well, but also a feature

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<v Speaker 1>like you. I've known your work for many years, so

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<v Speaker 1>I'm very very excited to have you here. Mia, I

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<v Speaker 1>wanted to start with a simple question, though, what is

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<v Speaker 1>a labo bou. You've shown me this creature, this you

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<v Speaker 1>are finding like little evil thing, and everyone wants one,

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<v Speaker 1>and I don't done this. Every time I try and

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<v Speaker 1>look it up and it makes me upset.

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<v Speaker 2>This could be the first time a la boobo has

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<v Speaker 2>stepped foot in the iHeartRadio offices.

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<v Speaker 1>I think we record in the same room as.

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<v Speaker 2>Right, something shifted. Oh okay, so Labooboo probably has been

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<v Speaker 2>in the last culture recent area.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I would assume.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. La Boo Boos are little plush dolls. They have

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<v Speaker 2>kind of like a hard plastic human like mean face,

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<v Speaker 2>but then are wearing like a bunny suit. They come

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<v Speaker 2>in all different colors, and I think the most important

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<v Speaker 2>thing to know about Laboo Boos is it is just gambling.

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<v Speaker 2>It's just gambling for kids and kind of adults now elaborate.

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<v Speaker 2>So they come in blind boxes, which is like they

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<v Speaker 2>are all in like a little plaster or a paper cartan,

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<v Speaker 2>and you have like a one in six chance of

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<v Speaker 2>getting a certain you know these colors, and then there's

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<v Speaker 2>one rare one that's like a one in seventy two chance,

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<v Speaker 2>and it says it right on the box like it

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<v Speaker 2>is just straightforward betting.

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<v Speaker 3>Who makes me.

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<v Speaker 2>They are sold by this company called PopMart, and they're

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<v Speaker 2>based on like a cartoon I think, like a broader

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<v Speaker 2>umbrella called The Monsters. So Labooboo is one character in

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<v Speaker 2>The Monsters.

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<v Speaker 1>And the others did not take off. I'm not the.

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<v Speaker 2>Same way, but I think there are some fans for

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<v Speaker 2>the other characters, the labooo or no, it's real, it's

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<v Speaker 2>real because of the seventy two no no, obviously not.

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<v Speaker 1>So is there a secondary la boo boo market.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is where it gets interesting, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>why I think leabuo boos are funnier and kind of

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<v Speaker 2>stupider than they appear on the surface, because from my

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<v Speaker 2>observations and from talking to friends who are like good

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<v Speaker 2>at flipping things, there is no really no resale value

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<v Speaker 2>for opened laboo boos. So if I wanted to sell

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<v Speaker 2>this pink laboo boo, it would go for maybe like

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<v Speaker 2>forty bucks fifty bucks, and they retail for like twenty

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<v Speaker 2>seven ninety nine, not including shipping and tax, and.

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<v Speaker 1>Not a huge margin. No, you can even sell exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>The ones that do go for some money are the

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<v Speaker 2>rare ones, which is like you know, their special colors

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<v Speaker 2>and unopened boxes, because again it's about gambling. It is

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<v Speaker 2>about the chance that you might have a rare one.

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<v Speaker 2>They're also out on Popmart's app, which we can talk about, like,

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<v Speaker 2>I think it is like the funniest thing ever to

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<v Speaker 2>do to parents of young children and to teens.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I feel like this was my life of

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<v Speaker 3>Pokemon cards.

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<v Speaker 2>It's exactly the same.

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<v Speaker 3>Game trumps right right.

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<v Speaker 2>And there is some like off like downstream La Booo

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<v Speaker 2>culture where people will dress in this essay. I will,

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<v Speaker 2>but people will like dress up their boo boos. They'll

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<v Speaker 2>like get accessories. There's a crazy kind of like off

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<v Speaker 2>brand black market for like La Boo boo related things

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<v Speaker 2>like lafu fooss are the fake laboo boos. I also

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<v Speaker 2>own a La fu Fu that I bought at the

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<v Speaker 2>Statue of Liberty as God intended. But yeah, the labubos

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<v Speaker 2>are interesting because it's not about the doll. It's about

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<v Speaker 2>how you acquire it, and it's about the odds, the

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<v Speaker 2>odds that you're taking.

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<v Speaker 3>Really, there's nothing more to it. Yeah, I feel like

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<v Speaker 3>two years ago this would have got This would have

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<v Speaker 3>had like an NFT element to it, right.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't say that, don't speak that into.

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<v Speaker 3>Exibits, but I think it's wholesome that it's just it's

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<v Speaker 3>just the thing, yeah, nothing else.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's just like collector culture.

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<v Speaker 1>It's also like very nihilistic.

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<v Speaker 2>It's it's pretty nihilistic. There's no ip related to it

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<v Speaker 2>that people are familiar with. There's no film like La

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<v Speaker 2>Boo Boo movie that people are obsessed with, like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>Paw Patrol, like kids see.

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<v Speaker 1>Pop want stuff, and like ten years ago this would

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<v Speaker 1>have already remember with Angry Birds. Yeah, Grovio is like

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<v Speaker 1>we're gonna do a TV show, We're gonna do a.

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<v Speaker 2>Movie, or like Grumpy Cat. I just wrote about grumpy cats,

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<v Speaker 2>so there's a grumpy there's a whole aspect.

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<v Speaker 3>But this will come.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, that's kind of what I'm waiting for. Also, it

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<v Speaker 1>does seem there is a Laboo Boo fan connect collection

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<v Speaker 1>on Magic Eden. It's zero point zero four Soul. If

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<v Speaker 1>you buy one of these, they should put you on

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<v Speaker 1>a list. It's fascinating because I've done everything I can

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<v Speaker 1>to avoid this, and I've mostly seen like cities by

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<v Speaker 1>a Diana Classic Instagram account. I've seen Leboobuo pop up

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<v Speaker 1>on there and being like no one will save you.

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<v Speaker 1>It's like that kind of brain rot style thing where

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<v Speaker 1>it's like a cute s you've always been like, no

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<v Speaker 1>one will save you, the world will collapse. It's just

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<v Speaker 1>La Boobos, Yes, but it is. I thought that'd be more.

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<v Speaker 1>I thought there would be more to it, but it

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<v Speaker 1>just see, it's just gam it's just gambling. We've found

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<v Speaker 1>a way to give children gambling.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and this isn't the first one either, Like their

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<v Speaker 2>blind boxes are definitely a thing, like Sunny Angels were

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<v Speaker 2>the last blind box thing that was kind of a craze.

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<v Speaker 2>They're little cherub like dolls, probably like two or three

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<v Speaker 2>inches tall, and they're all naked, and I think that's

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<v Speaker 2>why adults felt weird about owning them. But labuobos are

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<v Speaker 2>not naked, so people feel comfortable putting out them on

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<v Speaker 2>their like expensive handbags.

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<v Speaker 1>So that's what is it that has enabled this? Though?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it like very ta is Like this is a

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<v Speaker 1>very TikTok driven movement.

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<v Speaker 2>It's definitely on TikTok. I think. Also a big reason

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<v Speaker 2>they're so kind of like zeitgeisty or buzzy is because

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<v Speaker 2>they're impossible to buy. They're sold out all the time.

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<v Speaker 2>I went through the steps of trying to buy a

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<v Speaker 2>Laboo Boo on the PopMart app, and it was, hell,

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<v Speaker 2>why don't you woke.

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<v Speaker 1>Me through that? I'd love to actually like, how do

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<v Speaker 1>you actually allegedly buybies?

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<v Speaker 2>Okay, well, I didn't realize that you have to play

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<v Speaker 2>like a mini game basically like Boo Boo. This is

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<v Speaker 2>what people don't understand is like I have been through

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<v Speaker 2>the trenches to buy the stupid doll. You have to

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<v Speaker 2>so on the PopMart app, they're always sold out, right,

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<v Speaker 2>and they have like drops at certain times, and the company,

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<v Speaker 2>i think wanted to sort of recreate the experience of

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<v Speaker 2>going to a store and seeing an empty shelf where

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<v Speaker 2>you're like looking for the doll or looking for the product.

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<v Speaker 2>So when they drop, there are like digital shelves or

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<v Speaker 2>or like boxes where individual labo like six boxes of

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<v Speaker 2>Labuo boos will be place like digital ones, right, and

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<v Speaker 2>you can watch them sell out and you just scroll

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<v Speaker 2>through the boxes to find a la Boo boo for sale,

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<v Speaker 2>and most of the time they're all like grade out,

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<v Speaker 2>so that's something like it's in someone else's cart, and

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<v Speaker 2>then they'll get released, like someone will abandon it or whatever,

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<v Speaker 2>and then you can you have to like spam click

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<v Speaker 2>the box. It's crazy, and then you can shake it

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<v Speaker 2>and it will give you hints about like what it's not,

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<v Speaker 2>what doll it's not. I'm sorry, I feel like I'm

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<v Speaker 2>speaking in tongues.

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<v Speaker 1>No no, no, this is I'm following you. It's just horrifying.

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<v Speaker 2>It's really hard. And the other thing, I mean, PopMart

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<v Speaker 2>is they're sick. They're so sick and brilliant because they

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<v Speaker 2>also get thousands of people watching their TikTok lives for

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<v Speaker 2>hours waiting for them to drop laboo boos in TikTok shop,

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<v Speaker 2>And that is engagement. That's it's just like straightforward engagement

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<v Speaker 2>for me, you know what I mean, it's it's pretty insane.

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<v Speaker 3>So when does this jump into being? I mean, there's

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<v Speaker 3>no other ip around it. Yeah, but I think of

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<v Speaker 3>like Minecraft, that kind of stuff. I mean, very sort

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<v Speaker 3>of different product. But eventually they went, let's Microsoft bought it,

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<v Speaker 3>and then they made a movie and all that stuff,

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<v Speaker 3>and there was the commercialization was massive after it's very organic.

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<v Speaker 3>Is there a point do you think where that just

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<v Speaker 3>suddenly people go, all the kids are crazy about these things.

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<v Speaker 3>We can't just let this go by?

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe, like maybe, But also it feels so straightforwardly consumeristic

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<v Speaker 2>that like I could see it just dying down in like.

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<v Speaker 1>Two months recession indicators they stopped selling these out.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Well, honestly, I feel like people are being obsessed

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<v Speaker 2>with buying la booboos instead of like groceries or whatever

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<v Speaker 2>is a recession indicator, like these are cheap three, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 1>Like, I also feel like China just leads the world

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<v Speaker 1>in this kind of yeah, like nineties style evil consumerism,

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<v Speaker 1>Like this is some shit you would see in a

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<v Speaker 1>mid nineties film about evil tech CEOs, Like we've created

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<v Speaker 1>a devil dull like China.

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, I still, I mean, I feel like when

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<v Speaker 3>I used to buy football stickers as a kid.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, but this is so they were blind.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't know whether there was a good players in

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<v Speaker 3>there or bad players. Different scale and different level of

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<v Speaker 3>a session from what you're describing there. But isn't there

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<v Speaker 3>just this part of a young person's brain that says,

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<v Speaker 3>I want to collect these, My friends are going to

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<v Speaker 3>collect these. It's fun, right, I mean, I don't see

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<v Speaker 3>it's combsolutely different.

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<v Speaker 1>Oh it's not like you're totally right in that. It's

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<v Speaker 1>kind of clicking into that. You had a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>that with the n f T S and you've had

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<v Speaker 1>right at the beginning, especially and with top Shots as well,

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<v Speaker 1>which was the NFTs for basketball games that they then

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<v Speaker 1>expanded and then failed. It was exactly the same thing.

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<v Speaker 1>It was the kind of top trumps or not top

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<v Speaker 1>trumps at football stickers. The difference is that they've built

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<v Speaker 1>like an economic layer to it to like torture the

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<v Speaker 1>people trying to buy them the disappearing boxes.

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<v Speaker 3>That is.

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<v Speaker 1>Manipulative.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's really interesting. It also feels very much like

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<v Speaker 2>what a lot of shopping is these days is like

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<v Speaker 2>a you know, a stand in for a hobby collecting.

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<v Speaker 2>Like I feel like the Boo Boos and Stanley Cups

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<v Speaker 2>are like the same thing. Do you all know what

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<v Speaker 2>Stanley cup? I'm sorry, sorry no, but that means your

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<v Speaker 2>your brain is good the test, like your brain is

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<v Speaker 2>not fried. That is like the women who collect like

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<v Speaker 2>dozens of Stanley Cup colors and there's no reason to

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<v Speaker 2>have them, but like that is their form of you

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<v Speaker 2>know that it's a hobby.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I just want to read something from the

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<v Speaker 1>Wikipedia page for La Booboo. The Federation Council of Russia

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<v Speaker 1>proposed banning the sale for the Boo Boos. The reason

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<v Speaker 1>was their frightening appearance and potential hunt children's mental health

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<v Speaker 1>in Russia. A Katsena alta Beva, Deputy Chair for the

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<v Speaker 1>Committee and Science Education, Culture, state that the figures caused

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<v Speaker 1>children to feel fear. I just want to say that that,

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<v Speaker 1>like that was just a very funny sentence. Yeah, yeah,

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<v Speaker 1>Russia's massive ethics cause there it's just I think it.

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<v Speaker 1>You've really mentioned something though, with like collectibles that reminds

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<v Speaker 1>me of entities as well, where it's I collect comic

0:10:50.520 --> 0:10:53.640
<v Speaker 1>artwork and I original compic. I fucking delight in it.

0:10:53.720 --> 0:10:55.640
<v Speaker 1>I've filled my walls. I won't be getting anymore, but

0:10:55.679 --> 0:10:57.760
<v Speaker 1>like it has meaning and those I know like sports

0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:00.480
<v Speaker 1>Memorbile that they collect stuff because oh it's a meaningful

0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:03.680
<v Speaker 1>game whatever, or the player. With this, it's like like

0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:06.920
<v Speaker 1>n FT's it's that with all of the culture removed.

0:11:07.400 --> 0:11:10.240
<v Speaker 1>It's just strip mind to the core of you want

0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:13.920
<v Speaker 1>what everyone else wants, You want it now, how will

0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:16.200
<v Speaker 1>you get it? Only us? And the fact that there's

0:11:16.280 --> 0:11:19.199
<v Speaker 1>not another thing that Pop Mart has done like this

0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:22.200
<v Speaker 1>is so strange though, Yeah, like they're not. It's almost

0:11:22.280 --> 0:11:24.200
<v Speaker 1>like they're being a little bit cautious with it. They

0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:27.480
<v Speaker 1>don't want to overfill and push their luck a bit,

0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:30.360
<v Speaker 1>which is fascinating. And also the reason I mentioned this

0:11:30.440 --> 0:11:32.800
<v Speaker 1>China is American e commerce companies do not have that

0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:35.920
<v Speaker 1>killer instinct I feel like in China they'll fucking roll

0:11:35.960 --> 0:11:37.800
<v Speaker 1>our asses with making this cut of stuff. They made

0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.720
<v Speaker 1>an evil looking doll with no ip that they're just

0:11:40.760 --> 0:11:42.000
<v Speaker 1>like we own this by.

0:11:41.840 --> 0:11:43.640
<v Speaker 2>It, and now people are obsessed, like how did it

0:11:43.760 --> 0:11:44.240
<v Speaker 2>take off?

0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.000
<v Speaker 1>Was it? They're like, one, is it just something that appeared?

0:11:47.120 --> 0:11:47.400
<v Speaker 3>Okay.

0:11:47.440 --> 0:11:50.439
<v Speaker 2>The weirdest thing is that, from what I understand, one

0:11:50.480 --> 0:11:53.920
<v Speaker 2>of the Black Pink girls we're seen, she was seen

0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:55.280
<v Speaker 2>with a labubu.

0:11:54.840 --> 0:11:56.080
<v Speaker 1>And that's Korean pop.

0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.319
<v Speaker 2>Yes, k pop group, one of the probably one of

0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:00.040
<v Speaker 2>the biggest.

0:11:59.720 --> 0:12:01.760
<v Speaker 1>Happens yeah the world I'm Sane video.

0:12:02.040 --> 0:12:03.800
<v Speaker 2>I can't remember if it was Jenny or Lisa, but

0:12:04.120 --> 0:12:06.320
<v Speaker 2>I think maybe Lisa from Black Pink had a la

0:12:06.400 --> 0:12:09.360
<v Speaker 2>boo boo and it like it had been kind of

0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:12.000
<v Speaker 2>percolating already, but that really like blew it up in

0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:16.040
<v Speaker 2>a crazy way. But Yeah, my prediction is like this

0:12:16.120 --> 0:12:18.280
<v Speaker 2>will be not a thing anymore when it's they're easy

0:12:18.320 --> 0:12:21.120
<v Speaker 2>to acquire because again, my theory is that it's really

0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:24.400
<v Speaker 2>just about the process of acquisition, and I guess it's

0:12:24.600 --> 0:12:27.640
<v Speaker 2>purchasing rather than like the actual thing. And I think

0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:31.880
<v Speaker 2>also a lot of other especially like American toymakers, are

0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:35.200
<v Speaker 2>desperate right, like what is their laboo boo?

0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:37.640
<v Speaker 1>What is I don't know, and the things it's it's

0:12:37.720 --> 0:12:39.640
<v Speaker 1>they're trying they're going to solve it by going, well,

0:12:39.679 --> 0:12:41.680
<v Speaker 1>we'll just make a better one. It's like, No, the

0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.760
<v Speaker 1>actual thing you need to do is engage your killer

0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.679
<v Speaker 1>instinct and call Fangil or one of those companies they

0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.920
<v Speaker 1>Fangile has more in common I think than any like

0:12:50.000 --> 0:12:52.959
<v Speaker 1>Mattel as far as creating a product like Labuobo. It's

0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:55.560
<v Speaker 1>just this thing of scaring people saying, oh, if you

0:12:55.559 --> 0:12:57.880
<v Speaker 1>don't get in on now this, now you'll miss it.

0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:00.760
<v Speaker 1>Just to think with the NFTs things with Crypto and

0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.120
<v Speaker 1>now they've brought it for children, which is great. I think.

0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.559
<v Speaker 1>I think it's good. It's also I think the natural

0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:09.120
<v Speaker 1>endpoint of this bullshit fandom culture we've been in the

0:13:09.200 --> 0:13:12.560
<v Speaker 1>last ten to fifteen years maybe where it's just like it's.

0:13:12.320 --> 0:13:14.680
<v Speaker 3>Just why, I think you're underestimated the degree to we

0:13:14.720 --> 0:13:16.360
<v Speaker 3>see these things just cycle around.

0:13:16.360 --> 0:13:19.440
<v Speaker 1>Oh again, I don't disagree on that it is a

0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.440
<v Speaker 1>cyclical thing, but I think it's also just like, why

0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:24.240
<v Speaker 1>do we have this because everyone has this? Why do

0:13:24.280 --> 0:13:26.920
<v Speaker 1>we do this because everyone does this? Accelerated by things

0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.200
<v Speaker 1>like TikTok and TikTok Live in particular.

0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.400
<v Speaker 3>Yah, the urgency is interesting. Yeah, and I think the

0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:36.480
<v Speaker 3>if there's one thing, even if the toys go away,

0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:40.439
<v Speaker 3>that mechanism an enduring thing. But it'd be interesting to

0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.920
<v Speaker 3>see if an American brand does try that fully here,

0:13:42.960 --> 0:13:45.920
<v Speaker 3>because it's kind of similar to do you ever remember

0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:48.080
<v Speaker 3>used to use like booking dot com and I would say,

0:13:48.600 --> 0:13:51.040
<v Speaker 3>three people book this room in the last twenty minutes,

0:13:51.040 --> 0:13:52.520
<v Speaker 3>you better get it otherwise you're not going to do it.

0:13:52.720 --> 0:13:55.360
<v Speaker 3>And we we sort of we that was, you know,

0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:58.760
<v Speaker 3>got a lot of scrutiny, has been an unfair way

0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.400
<v Speaker 3>to force people to buy things in a hurry, and

0:14:01.640 --> 0:14:03.000
<v Speaker 3>I suspect would see the same.

0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:07.280
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, it's like the natural growth of e commerce

0:14:07.320 --> 0:14:09.360
<v Speaker 1>and all the ways you can kind of push a customer.

0:14:09.520 --> 0:14:12.120
<v Speaker 1>You see it with like every single Instagram drop chip thing.

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.000
<v Speaker 1>If you click then it's like sixty two people are

0:14:14.000 --> 0:14:16.000
<v Speaker 1>buying this right now. Yeah, you need to buy this

0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:18.200
<v Speaker 1>special code looking at it. Yeah, and if you don't,

0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:19.960
<v Speaker 1>they're going to sell out. This is the pans that

0:14:20.080 --> 0:14:22.000
<v Speaker 1>sold out. There are so many pans that sell out

0:14:22.000 --> 0:14:26.240
<v Speaker 1>on Instagram. But leading into another thing, actually both of

0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:28.200
<v Speaker 1>you have kind of covered as well. It feels like

0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:32.120
<v Speaker 1>this is almost humanity trying to move with the algorithm

0:14:32.160 --> 0:14:34.480
<v Speaker 1>to fit what people would be going after a growth

0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.800
<v Speaker 1>of as you put Dave, that the fact that, yeah,

0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:38.360
<v Speaker 1>we are trend seekers, we will want to kind of

0:14:38.400 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 1>fit in. But it leads to this thing of this

0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:44.120
<v Speaker 1>got popular because it got it got popular and it

0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.240
<v Speaker 1>hit the algorithmic side. You were mentioning before we came

0:14:46.280 --> 0:14:48.360
<v Speaker 1>in here here that there is an almost an seo

0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.000
<v Speaker 1>level to posting on TikTok.

0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:52.440
<v Speaker 2>Now, yeah, for sure, I mean, you know, I think

0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:55.640
<v Speaker 2>it goes back to do you remember like two years

0:14:55.680 --> 0:14:58.200
<v Speaker 2>ago everyone was freaking out that people were using TikTok

0:14:58.240 --> 0:15:00.880
<v Speaker 2>like a search engine, which no, was like, so quaint

0:15:01.520 --> 0:15:04.960
<v Speaker 2>I think I think like a Google exact mentioned it

0:15:05.000 --> 0:15:06.080
<v Speaker 2>at some event.

0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:07.920
<v Speaker 3>Right, well, they mentioned it. This is one of my

0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:11.320
<v Speaker 3>favorite parts. So during their antitrust here right right where

0:15:11.560 --> 0:15:14.400
<v Speaker 3>we say lost, eventually they are that Google is a

0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.920
<v Speaker 3>monopoly because kids are turned to TikTok to search, and

0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.920
<v Speaker 3>it was just it was and Google had this slide.

0:15:20.960 --> 0:15:23.520
<v Speaker 3>They were briefing journalists with than others that had all

0:15:23.520 --> 0:15:26.560
<v Speaker 3>the sort of supposed competitors, and it was just things

0:15:26.600 --> 0:15:29.480
<v Speaker 3>that they weren't competitive, and TikTok was one of them.

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:31.680
<v Speaker 3>And there was this idea and because here's the thing.

0:15:31.680 --> 0:15:34.000
<v Speaker 3>If someone might go on TikTok and say, oh, good

0:15:34.040 --> 0:15:36.480
<v Speaker 3>restaurant New York and get like a couple of videos

0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:38.040
<v Speaker 3>or whatever. But the idea that there was like a

0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:41.840
<v Speaker 3>utility that's replacing like for like was very very helpful

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:43.320
<v Speaker 3>to me. But it was at a point sort of

0:15:43.360 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 3>picked up by all these kind of trends arenown to

0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:46.760
<v Speaker 3>be like, oh, Google's in trouble because people are searching

0:15:46.760 --> 0:15:50.000
<v Speaker 3>on TikTok. Not really, you know, it's it's that'd be

0:15:50.120 --> 0:15:53.800
<v Speaker 3>like saying I'm searching on television. You know, it's there's

0:15:53.880 --> 0:15:54.920
<v Speaker 3>not this not the same thing.

0:15:55.240 --> 0:15:57.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, absolutely not. And it's obviously like it was deployed

0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:01.080
<v Speaker 2>very strategically by Google, you know, like bringing out very

0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:05.800
<v Speaker 2>specific statistics or whatever. But the I think the point

0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.720
<v Speaker 2>stands that like the same thing I've written about sort

0:16:08.760 --> 0:16:12.760
<v Speaker 2>of the degradation of Google Search as a window into

0:16:12.800 --> 0:16:18.120
<v Speaker 2>the web. And part of that is because people spam

0:16:18.200 --> 0:16:21.240
<v Speaker 2>the web with horrible things, like things that kind of

0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.840
<v Speaker 2>suck and are not useful because they're trying to appease

0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:26.880
<v Speaker 2>an algorithm, and I think that same thing is happening

0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:28.880
<v Speaker 2>on TikTok. It happens on Instagram, and a lot of

0:16:28.920 --> 0:16:32.520
<v Speaker 2>it is user like comes from the user. We have

0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:34.680
<v Speaker 2>to be honest that like people make shitty content.

0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:35.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you know what I mean.

0:16:36.400 --> 0:16:38.240
<v Speaker 2>It's not just the tech companies who like make the

0:16:38.240 --> 0:16:42.040
<v Speaker 2>systems bad. But there also is like sort of the

0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:46.800
<v Speaker 2>guiding hand of TikTok where it will give creators ideas

0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:48.880
<v Speaker 2>for types of content to make. These are what people are.

0:16:49.280 --> 0:16:51.720
<v Speaker 2>These are the terms that people are searching for. What

0:16:51.760 --> 0:16:54.040
<v Speaker 2>if you made a video about trending restaurants in your

0:16:54.040 --> 0:16:58.360
<v Speaker 2>neighborhood or la boo boo, right, And part of it

0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:01.640
<v Speaker 2>is like people want to want ideas for what to

0:17:01.680 --> 0:17:04.560
<v Speaker 2>make yours. TikTok is a very punishing algorithm, at least

0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.240
<v Speaker 2>in my experience, Like if you stop posting, it's really

0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:09.400
<v Speaker 2>hard to regain views.

0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:11.840
<v Speaker 1>I wasn't sure. Yeah, I've actually always been So there's

0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:12.320
<v Speaker 1>a momentum.

0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:14.679
<v Speaker 2>All there's a momentum for sure, for sure, And this

0:17:14.720 --> 0:17:16.960
<v Speaker 2>is something creators have talked a lot about. But you

0:17:17.320 --> 0:17:19.960
<v Speaker 2>need ideas for what to post and if TikTok is saying,

0:17:20.000 --> 0:17:22.440
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of people are searching for this one specific

0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:26.000
<v Speaker 2>restaurant in New York, why wouldn't you make a video

0:17:26.000 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 2>about it? Right, It's like sort of it's it's almost

0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.439
<v Speaker 2>like a it's backing into SEO, where you kind of

0:17:33.480 --> 0:17:36.359
<v Speaker 2>instead of searching for, you know, terms related to what

0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:38.840
<v Speaker 2>you make, you take the terms that the platform is

0:17:38.880 --> 0:17:41.560
<v Speaker 2>giving you or telling you, suggesting you make content based

0:17:41.560 --> 0:17:43.480
<v Speaker 2>off of Yeah.

0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.400
<v Speaker 1>It's it's the kind of incentive driven web at this point,

0:17:46.440 --> 0:17:49.160
<v Speaker 1>because I think that with the thing with SEO especially

0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:52.240
<v Speaker 1>is there were there were people always made shit content,

0:17:52.280 --> 0:17:54.359
<v Speaker 1>but there were also people who genuinely like, here are

0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:57.680
<v Speaker 1>ten things I really like in New York. I mean

0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:00.640
<v Speaker 1>one of my one of the saddest, like a brand

0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.359
<v Speaker 1>that's still around, as like Zagat that used to be

0:18:03.840 --> 0:18:05.200
<v Speaker 1>or Time Out especially.

0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:07.800
<v Speaker 3>I mean there's so many Sports Illustrated, you know, they're

0:18:07.800 --> 0:18:10.840
<v Speaker 3>just these places that were making good content their business

0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.359
<v Speaker 3>how didn't work? And one of my grievances with Google

0:18:14.359 --> 0:18:17.000
<v Speaker 3>at the moment strongly is that what they're selling now

0:18:17.200 --> 0:18:20.440
<v Speaker 3>is the solution to the web they created, Yes, saying

0:18:20.520 --> 0:18:22.800
<v Speaker 3>we've got all these disgusting websites out there. You go

0:18:22.800 --> 0:18:25.480
<v Speaker 3>on a local news website, my god, it's it's your

0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:29.160
<v Speaker 3>phone is like one hundred exactly, and there's pop ups everywhere,

0:18:29.240 --> 0:18:32.120
<v Speaker 3>and you get and Google's saying, oh, the web's bad.

0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.120
<v Speaker 3>We're gonna we're gonna summarize that as an aoverview. Isn't

0:18:35.160 --> 0:18:37.600
<v Speaker 3>that great? And so well, the web's bad because the

0:18:37.680 --> 0:18:39.520
<v Speaker 3>design had to be you know, the way we made

0:18:39.520 --> 0:18:43.280
<v Speaker 3>content had to change in order to appease the platform.

0:18:43.359 --> 0:18:45.920
<v Speaker 1>And that's the thing. You did a great piece actually

0:18:45.960 --> 0:18:49.199
<v Speaker 1>about there reaping the rewards of it's unfairy advantage and

0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:52.600
<v Speaker 1>also kind of like selling you swill and being like, yeah,

0:18:52.640 --> 0:18:56.480
<v Speaker 1>we'll find the dogs, will find the diamond in the

0:18:56.560 --> 0:19:00.280
<v Speaker 1>turds that we created, and I think quite the turn afraid, yeah,

0:19:01.720 --> 0:19:05.600
<v Speaker 1>why they give me a microphone. But it's so sad

0:19:05.640 --> 0:19:07.960
<v Speaker 1>as well, because there is an innocence to it. It's like, yeah,

0:19:08.000 --> 0:19:09.879
<v Speaker 1>if you know people are looking for New York stuff,

0:19:09.880 --> 0:19:11.800
<v Speaker 1>and you know New York, of course you'd say that

0:19:11.840 --> 0:19:14.280
<v Speaker 1>time out reason that brought up as well as it

0:19:14.359 --> 0:19:16.199
<v Speaker 1>used to be that you pick up time out and

0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:18.040
<v Speaker 1>be like, oh, well, these people think they're cool. Like

0:19:18.119 --> 0:19:19.880
<v Speaker 1>it was a big degree of that, and I think

0:19:19.920 --> 0:19:22.440
<v Speaker 1>TikTok is leaned into that as well, with content creators

0:19:22.440 --> 0:19:24.760
<v Speaker 1>like that, because I have seen tiktoks of stuff in

0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:26.960
<v Speaker 1>New York. I've moved to America in two thousand, and

0:19:26.960 --> 0:19:29.160
<v Speaker 1>they have spent many, many hours in New York. There's

0:19:29.160 --> 0:19:31.719
<v Speaker 1>shit I'm surprised by. It's cool, and then you get

0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.440
<v Speaker 1>the people who are doing it chop shop style, and

0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.520
<v Speaker 1>it's unfortunate but kind of inevitable that you'd see this

0:19:37.560 --> 0:19:40.920
<v Speaker 1>on social networks. What's confusing to me is why TikTok

0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:43.359
<v Speaker 1>feels like the first one to really give it the

0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.200
<v Speaker 1>actual try, because Instagram is sort of half asked it.

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.480
<v Speaker 1>Twitter's never really like people try and appear for algorithms,

0:19:49.480 --> 0:19:51.840
<v Speaker 1>but it didn't feel like the companies were as serious

0:19:51.840 --> 0:19:54.480
<v Speaker 1>about it as say maybe a Google or indeed TikTok.

0:19:55.000 --> 0:19:59.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think I mean Instagram at least the search

0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:04.479
<v Speaker 2>has always sucked. Yeah, and it doesn't. I don't know

0:20:04.520 --> 0:20:07.119
<v Speaker 2>that it makes sense to optimize that same way that said,

0:20:07.200 --> 0:20:10.320
<v Speaker 2>Instagram also does have like creator tools where it will

0:20:10.320 --> 0:20:12.200
<v Speaker 2>be like this is how you should edit a video

0:20:12.320 --> 0:20:14.240
<v Speaker 2>or this is how you should make content.

0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:14.760
<v Speaker 1>Right.

0:20:15.320 --> 0:20:19.639
<v Speaker 2>YouTube does this so it's it's not that I just

0:20:19.680 --> 0:20:22.840
<v Speaker 2>think that search on TikTok is something so different. I

0:20:23.160 --> 0:20:25.879
<v Speaker 2>did something recently where I was I searched for something

0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:28.399
<v Speaker 2>on TikTok and there was like a little pop up

0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:30.920
<v Speaker 2>that the app gave me that was like, if you're

0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:34.160
<v Speaker 2>not finding an answer that's satisfactory, why don't you ask

0:20:34.240 --> 0:20:36.560
<v Speaker 2>people to make content based off of it? Or something?

0:20:36.560 --> 0:20:38.760
<v Speaker 2>It was crazy, you know, it was so many levels

0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:43.000
<v Speaker 2>of optimization that I was like, this is really an experience.

0:20:43.040 --> 0:20:45.600
<v Speaker 2>It doesn't exist on other platforms on it's such a bid.

0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:48.120
<v Speaker 3>It's such a by design thing with TikTok search, because

0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:50.920
<v Speaker 3>one thing is really I find really aggravating as someone

0:20:50.960 --> 0:20:55.240
<v Speaker 3>who you know isn't as clued up on the online

0:20:55.280 --> 0:20:58.080
<v Speaker 3>culture as evidently you guys both.

0:20:57.840 --> 0:20:59.400
<v Speaker 2>Are like, well nobody has laboo boo.

0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.879
<v Speaker 3>I'll often see on TikTok some reference or something and

0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.639
<v Speaker 3>I'll go, what are they talking about? What is that about?

0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:10.280
<v Speaker 3>And TikTok doesn't allow you just to link to another video, right,

0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:12.320
<v Speaker 3>and so what it forces you to do is there'll

0:21:12.359 --> 0:21:15.120
<v Speaker 3>be the search suggestion, there'll be people doing searches, there'll

0:21:15.119 --> 0:21:17.040
<v Speaker 3>be people that know that people are looking for searchers,

0:21:17.080 --> 0:21:18.639
<v Speaker 3>so they will reference something else that will send you

0:21:18.680 --> 0:21:23.440
<v Speaker 3>somewhere else in entirely. And it's just the net effect

0:21:23.440 --> 0:21:25.040
<v Speaker 3>of that is, instead of going to the video that

0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:27.600
<v Speaker 3>explain the thing that I'm confused about, I end up

0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:31.040
<v Speaker 3>watching maybe five others with ads in between every second

0:21:31.080 --> 0:21:34.240
<v Speaker 3>or third one, and I still don't really know. I mean,

0:21:34.359 --> 0:21:35.640
<v Speaker 3>although some of the things I think if I did

0:21:35.640 --> 0:21:38.919
<v Speaker 3>see the explanation, I still wouldn't understand it. But just

0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.560
<v Speaker 3>trying to get there in the first place is really

0:21:41.600 --> 0:21:47.719
<v Speaker 3>really tricky.

0:21:53.000 --> 0:21:55.000
<v Speaker 1>It's when you get to the point of like, why

0:21:55.040 --> 0:21:57.600
<v Speaker 1>are they creating search tools on their platforms? Is it

0:21:57.640 --> 0:21:59.359
<v Speaker 1>so that you can find the thing you need or

0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:01.359
<v Speaker 1>so that they can fine like they can kind of

0:22:01.359 --> 0:22:02.120
<v Speaker 1>get you halfway.

0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:03.000
<v Speaker 3>I don't think.

0:22:02.840 --> 0:22:05.200
<v Speaker 1>It's I'm just be clear. I'm not front loaded this

0:22:05.320 --> 0:22:08.680
<v Speaker 1>and suggesting the evil and everything everything everything they do.

0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:11.480
<v Speaker 1>But the tweaks they make kind of are one of

0:22:11.480 --> 0:22:14.080
<v Speaker 1>the funny things mere you put you actually put in

0:22:14.119 --> 0:22:16.960
<v Speaker 1>the article about dupes though, that excellent. I'll leave and

0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:17.800
<v Speaker 1>call of these in their notes.

0:22:17.800 --> 0:22:18.200
<v Speaker 3>Don't worry.

0:22:18.200 --> 0:22:20.560
<v Speaker 1>You don't have to email me. Uh was you if

0:22:20.600 --> 0:22:22.960
<v Speaker 1>you look for Apple dupes on Instagram? You get this

0:22:23.000 --> 0:22:25.200
<v Speaker 1>thing saying protect your favorite brands. The sale of promotion

0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.040
<v Speaker 1>of counterfeit goods is not allowed on Instagram. So funny,

0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:30.800
<v Speaker 1>But if you just type in dupes, it goes summarizing.

0:22:30.880 --> 0:22:34.000
<v Speaker 1>If you're looking for alternative alternatives to high end products,

0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:35.879
<v Speaker 1>dubes are are the way to go. A dupe is

0:22:35.880 --> 0:22:38.120
<v Speaker 1>a product that replicates the quality, indoor appearance, a price.

0:22:38.119 --> 0:22:40.040
<v Speaker 1>They're alternative. So funny, and then you get a bunch

0:22:40.080 --> 0:22:43.480
<v Speaker 1>of videos that are selling jupes. Sometimes it feels like

0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:47.000
<v Speaker 1>they don't really care that much. They just they just

0:22:47.080 --> 0:22:48.199
<v Speaker 1>kind of like mailing it in.

0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.919
<v Speaker 3>Ye tiktokt for jubes. I fine. I wrote a column

0:22:52.040 --> 0:22:54.320
<v Speaker 3>months ago now, but it was I saw one video

0:22:54.359 --> 0:22:56.439
<v Speaker 3>and there's this guy and he hadn't even got out

0:22:56.480 --> 0:22:59.760
<v Speaker 3>of bed, right, and he said, oh, Apple's selling these

0:23:00.160 --> 0:23:02.239
<v Speaker 3>pod maxes for three hundred bucks, but these ones are

0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:04.520
<v Speaker 3>only twenty And he was holding his hands you can't

0:23:04.800 --> 0:23:06.400
<v Speaker 3>see on the public, holding his hand in the air,

0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:08.520
<v Speaker 3>and he didn't have a product in his hand. He

0:23:08.600 --> 0:23:11.680
<v Speaker 3>just had a screenshot of the Apple the official Apple

0:23:11.680 --> 0:23:13.960
<v Speaker 3>AirPod Maxes, and it was just sort of floating around

0:23:14.040 --> 0:23:16.199
<v Speaker 3>with his hand. And then what he was selling on

0:23:16.240 --> 0:23:19.199
<v Speaker 3>TikTok shop was you know, a twenty bucks knockoff that

0:23:19.280 --> 0:23:22.560
<v Speaker 3>was terrible, and I wrote about basically how the TikTok

0:23:22.640 --> 0:23:25.879
<v Speaker 3>shop is. I think it's kind of insulting to TikTok users.

0:23:25.880 --> 0:23:28.040
<v Speaker 3>They've really shoved it in. They put it in the middle,

0:23:28.080 --> 0:23:31.480
<v Speaker 3>so it looks terrible, looks terrible. The products are just awful.

0:23:31.520 --> 0:23:35.520
<v Speaker 3>Some of the marketing people do is so trashy. It's

0:23:35.600 --> 0:23:37.359
<v Speaker 3>like got all this like sexual in the endo in

0:23:37.400 --> 0:23:40.520
<v Speaker 3>it and all this kind of stuff, and TikTok were

0:23:40.560 --> 0:23:43.119
<v Speaker 3>just like, well, no, we're happy with it basically, and

0:23:43.320 --> 0:23:45.800
<v Speaker 3>they actually tried to deep force a big correction on

0:23:45.800 --> 0:23:47.439
<v Speaker 3>a column that had nothing wrong with it other than

0:23:47.440 --> 0:23:48.960
<v Speaker 3>the fact it was calling out that it was a

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:49.480
<v Speaker 3>terrible place.

0:23:49.720 --> 0:23:52.480
<v Speaker 1>I think that TikTok should lean more into the excellent

0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:54.720
<v Speaker 1>Chinese business owners, though. I don't know if you've seen

0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:57.000
<v Speaker 1>any of these insane ones where it'll be like we're

0:23:57.040 --> 0:24:00.920
<v Speaker 1>selling giant houses, you can't step, no permit needed. There

0:24:00.960 --> 0:24:03.800
<v Speaker 1>was one where it's like for people sent its like

0:24:04.040 --> 0:24:07.040
<v Speaker 1>one says I'm racist, one says I'm ablest, and one

0:24:07.080 --> 0:24:09.800
<v Speaker 1>goes I'm stepan. If you need to buy high quality

0:24:09.840 --> 0:24:12.480
<v Speaker 1>cables with your logo on it, and I love those

0:24:12.760 --> 0:24:15.800
<v Speaker 1>because they're funny. They're funny, but they're also just like, yeah,

0:24:15.800 --> 0:24:17.680
<v Speaker 1>we're trying to do the algorithm, but fuck you by

0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:19.199
<v Speaker 1>K and at the end that just like, we have

0:24:19.240 --> 0:24:23.200
<v Speaker 1>a bunch of cables with you that's respectable, that's that's commerce.

0:24:23.240 --> 0:24:27.440
<v Speaker 1>We should support that, not this weird QVC. It almost

0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:29.840
<v Speaker 1>feels like we're trending towards what every music video in

0:24:29.880 --> 0:24:31.840
<v Speaker 1>the nineties was making, like this very kind of like

0:24:32.000 --> 0:24:36.680
<v Speaker 1>greasy consumerism. Though I will add this isn't me suggesting

0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:39.480
<v Speaker 1>anyone specifically has decided to be evil. This is just

0:24:39.520 --> 0:24:42.480
<v Speaker 1>what happens when incentives for people. I think when you

0:24:42.520 --> 0:24:44.640
<v Speaker 1>get like the slop shop in TikTok.

0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:47.560
<v Speaker 3>I think the incentives of all the major networks have

0:24:47.600 --> 0:24:49.439
<v Speaker 3>been so interesting and sort of shaping. I mean, you

0:24:49.440 --> 0:24:52.399
<v Speaker 3>were talking earlier about Twitter. They never really push people

0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:54.399
<v Speaker 3>in much of a direction in terms of what to

0:24:54.440 --> 0:24:56.440
<v Speaker 3>sort of be talking about. But one thing they did

0:24:56.480 --> 0:25:00.000
<v Speaker 3>reward constantly the algorithm was anger. Yes, and Facebook got

0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:02.439
<v Speaker 3>into that problem with you know when they you know,

0:25:02.480 --> 0:25:04.720
<v Speaker 3>for a long the longest time they thought any engagement

0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:06.720
<v Speaker 3>is good engagement until they realized it was you ain't

0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:08.960
<v Speaker 3>and uncles like having to go at each other over

0:25:09.080 --> 0:25:11.480
<v Speaker 3>politics or whatever. That's when they realized that was bad.

0:25:11.520 --> 0:25:13.320
<v Speaker 3>And I'm still not convinced they do realize how bad

0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:16.439
<v Speaker 3>that is. Twitter was all about anger I did for

0:25:16.480 --> 0:25:19.000
<v Speaker 3>a short while, and this was years ago I think now,

0:25:19.240 --> 0:25:22.960
<v Speaker 3>But like TikTok did seem to sort of push people

0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.320
<v Speaker 3>towards doing stuff right, which I thought was quite healthy,

0:25:25.359 --> 0:25:27.639
<v Speaker 3>Like well, the things that did well were you know,

0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:30.600
<v Speaker 3>friends getting together and dancing. It was being out and about,

0:25:30.600 --> 0:25:33.960
<v Speaker 3>it was being funny. But the stuff that worked was actually.

0:25:33.680 --> 0:25:36.560
<v Speaker 1>Quite entertaining, like Vine almost, but yeah, just like.

0:25:36.560 --> 0:25:38.160
<v Speaker 3>Vine in terms of just the sort of the humor

0:25:38.200 --> 0:25:41.320
<v Speaker 3>that traveled. I think that what's happened, though, is they've

0:25:41.320 --> 0:25:43.920
<v Speaker 3>turned the screw of the monetization and the amount of

0:25:43.960 --> 0:25:47.000
<v Speaker 3>sponsored stuff and also like the and I never quite

0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:48.879
<v Speaker 3>know what drives it, right, because it is it that

0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:52.440
<v Speaker 3>some people come up with a format for a format

0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:56.240
<v Speaker 3>for a video that works and then TikTok goes, oh,

0:25:56.240 --> 0:25:58.240
<v Speaker 3>that's good, We'll get others to do it. What do

0:25:58.240 --> 0:26:00.160
<v Speaker 3>you think sort of TikTok is trying to nurture it

0:26:00.160 --> 0:26:01.800
<v Speaker 3>itself first, I mean, I guess it's a bit of

0:26:01.800 --> 0:26:02.239
<v Speaker 3>buu im.

0:26:02.240 --> 0:26:05.040
<v Speaker 1>Actually, yeah, it's chicken and egg because I had this

0:26:05.080 --> 0:26:07.800
<v Speaker 1>theory about year ago, maybe actually twenty twenty three, where

0:26:07.840 --> 0:26:10.520
<v Speaker 1>it's like, at some point, how much of content is

0:26:10.600 --> 0:26:12.359
<v Speaker 1>just going to be geared towards what they think the

0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:14.959
<v Speaker 1>algorithm wants, and because the algorithm with good reason, they

0:26:14.960 --> 0:26:17.520
<v Speaker 1>don't want to just publish exactly what would work, because

0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:20.040
<v Speaker 1>then people would only do that. And I think that

0:26:20.080 --> 0:26:23.800
<v Speaker 1>there's just this weird battle between I think any content

0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:25.720
<v Speaker 1>creat I think all of us, like there's a certain

0:26:25.760 --> 0:26:28.639
<v Speaker 1>degree of what's going to do well. And personally, as

0:26:28.680 --> 0:26:30.240
<v Speaker 1>everyone knows from this show, I've just done what I

0:26:30.280 --> 0:26:32.840
<v Speaker 1>want since the beginning, regardless of what people said. But

0:26:33.040 --> 0:26:35.080
<v Speaker 1>there is a pool of like what will do well?

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:37.800
<v Speaker 1>What do people want? And what is a person in

0:26:37.800 --> 0:26:41.120
<v Speaker 1>this case? And so you've just got this people probably

0:26:41.359 --> 0:26:44.760
<v Speaker 1>I reckon for the most part, people are making honest content.

0:26:46.560 --> 0:26:48.639
<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's impossible to quantify it.

0:26:48.800 --> 0:26:51.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's impossible to quantify. And also I don't think

0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:54.439
<v Speaker 2>it's that like it makes a lot of sense when

0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:57.080
<v Speaker 2>you think of the Internet or these platforms as a workplace,

0:26:57.119 --> 0:26:59.199
<v Speaker 2>which for a lot of these people. It is for me.

0:26:59.280 --> 0:27:01.879
<v Speaker 2>It is in some way the Verge employs me and

0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:05.200
<v Speaker 2>pays my bills. But part of my work, part of

0:27:05.240 --> 0:27:08.280
<v Speaker 2>my how my work travels is based on my ability

0:27:08.320 --> 0:27:12.040
<v Speaker 2>to ride algorithmic waves when needed. Right, And it's the

0:27:12.040 --> 0:27:14.439
<v Speaker 2>same way that like, you still see journalists on threads.

0:27:14.480 --> 0:27:17.040
<v Speaker 2>I don't really post on threads very much, but you

0:27:17.040 --> 0:27:19.960
<v Speaker 2>see journalists on threads post screenshots of their articles, and

0:27:20.000 --> 0:27:22.159
<v Speaker 2>then in the replies they'll post the link because they

0:27:22.160 --> 0:27:24.000
<v Speaker 2>think that they're going to get downloaded. Right, you're down

0:27:24.080 --> 0:27:25.520
<v Speaker 2>downrinked for putting a link in there.

0:27:25.880 --> 0:27:26.360
<v Speaker 1>Insane.

0:27:26.480 --> 0:27:29.120
<v Speaker 2>And that's the same way that like, you know, twit twit.

0:27:29.200 --> 0:27:29.720
<v Speaker 1>Like that as well.

0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:33.119
<v Speaker 2>Now yeah, yeah, and I mean Elon Musk has just

0:27:33.119 --> 0:27:36.240
<v Speaker 2>come out straightforwardly and said, like, you know, it's I

0:27:36.240 --> 0:27:38.480
<v Speaker 2>can't remember the term he used, but yeah, he's acknowledged that.

0:27:39.000 --> 0:27:41.520
<v Speaker 2>But you know, the same practices sort of carry over

0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:44.840
<v Speaker 2>to video platforms. Right, you need to start a video

0:27:44.920 --> 0:27:46.879
<v Speaker 2>in a certain way if you want it to get traction.

0:27:46.960 --> 0:27:49.280
<v Speaker 2>There are different ways, well, there are different ways to

0:27:49.280 --> 0:27:51.680
<v Speaker 2>do it. Some some stuff that goes really does really

0:27:51.760 --> 0:27:56.080
<v Speaker 2>well is like you know, selfie style camp, selfie style

0:27:56.200 --> 0:28:01.239
<v Speaker 2>video and it starts okay, story time. I'm sure you've

0:28:01.280 --> 0:28:03.919
<v Speaker 2>seen this, Oh where you put it?

0:28:03.920 --> 0:28:07.240
<v Speaker 3>The millennials get it ready right and have it hello everyone?

0:28:07.359 --> 0:28:07.479
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:28:07.560 --> 0:28:08.880
<v Speaker 3>Yes, the gen Z sake is the.

0:28:09.160 --> 0:28:11.960
<v Speaker 2>Is like, so, yes, that's well, that's a perfect example

0:28:11.960 --> 0:28:15.159
<v Speaker 2>of like people the shake is this thing where people

0:28:15.200 --> 0:28:18.720
<v Speaker 2>were I guess surmising that if you put your camera down,

0:28:18.800 --> 0:28:20.760
<v Speaker 2>like you start recording, and you put your camera down

0:28:20.760 --> 0:28:22.800
<v Speaker 2>in a way that feels like you were just caught

0:28:22.960 --> 0:28:25.440
<v Speaker 2>something in the moment. Yeah, and you were just recording

0:28:25.520 --> 0:28:28.840
<v Speaker 2>jumping into record a video like that is effective for people,

0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:30.679
<v Speaker 2>or it makes it feel organic, or it makes it

0:28:30.720 --> 0:28:34.359
<v Speaker 2>feel relatable like whatever. But yeah, everyone does some like

0:28:34.440 --> 0:28:35.800
<v Speaker 2>some level of optimizing.

0:28:35.880 --> 0:28:39.920
<v Speaker 3>I think the dark side of this is that trying

0:28:39.960 --> 0:28:44.080
<v Speaker 3>to predict what works is turning people completely loopy. Yeah right,

0:28:44.360 --> 0:28:46.120
<v Speaker 3>Like so I saw and I won't say who is

0:28:46.320 --> 0:28:49.120
<v Speaker 3>might have my assessment on how this person feels might

0:28:49.120 --> 0:28:52.280
<v Speaker 3>be wrong. But I saw a singer who made a

0:28:52.360 --> 0:28:55.040
<v Speaker 3>short video maybe thirty seconds, where she had like one

0:28:55.120 --> 0:28:56.640
<v Speaker 3>verse of a song and she's like, oh guys, you

0:28:56.760 --> 0:28:58.760
<v Speaker 3>like this and it was wonderful and it got like,

0:28:58.760 --> 0:29:00.760
<v Speaker 3>you know, over a million views. I was going, I'll

0:29:00.760 --> 0:29:03.280
<v Speaker 3>record this recorded because and so she did, right, She

0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:06.040
<v Speaker 3>sort of took time off the platform, made like an

0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:08.400
<v Speaker 3>EP and put the songs out there, came back on

0:29:08.440 --> 0:29:10.680
<v Speaker 3>TikTok to make the content about the song being ready,

0:29:10.880 --> 0:29:13.080
<v Speaker 3>and it got next to nothing engagement, and you can

0:29:13.120 --> 0:29:15.480
<v Speaker 3>just see, at least my impression was that you could

0:29:15.480 --> 0:29:17.800
<v Speaker 3>see her kind of going why why, Like, I've done

0:29:17.880 --> 0:29:20.200
<v Speaker 3>the song, I've done the actual work of releasing a song,

0:29:20.520 --> 0:29:23.120
<v Speaker 3>and the algorithm for some reason, maybe it seems less organic,

0:29:23.200 --> 0:29:25.040
<v Speaker 3>or maybe people just didn't like the song. Maybe I'm

0:29:25.480 --> 0:29:27.320
<v Speaker 3>ugly now, maybe like all this, and people go, what

0:29:27.480 --> 0:29:29.480
<v Speaker 3>is it that's preventing it? And I think that's where

0:29:29.480 --> 0:29:30.440
<v Speaker 3>it's kind of troubling to me.

0:29:30.480 --> 0:29:33.840
<v Speaker 1>I I agree, and I think that it's really hard

0:29:33.880 --> 0:29:36.880
<v Speaker 1>sometimes to see the difference between the algorithm and the

0:29:36.960 --> 0:29:39.440
<v Speaker 1>reader or the viewer, right because it's like what did

0:29:39.480 --> 0:29:42.520
<v Speaker 1>you like? Did people actually like it? As well as

0:29:42.560 --> 0:29:45.640
<v Speaker 1>the question there. There was also a YouTube video that

0:29:45.680 --> 0:29:48.680
<v Speaker 1>went up a couple months ago where someone was investigating

0:29:48.720 --> 0:29:51.320
<v Speaker 1>why lots of videos have a person holding the tiny

0:29:51.360 --> 0:29:54.600
<v Speaker 1>microphone the level of a microphone, and it really I.

0:29:54.600 --> 0:29:56.960
<v Speaker 3>Do that, no, but that's a Bloomberg TikTok account. I'd

0:29:56.960 --> 0:29:58.560
<v Speaker 3>do the whole micro thing and people take the make

0:29:58.560 --> 0:29:59.840
<v Speaker 3>out it's weird.

0:30:00.640 --> 0:30:05.640
<v Speaker 1>Apparently algorithm likes it. Certain think that Dan over a

0:30:05.760 --> 0:30:07.680
<v Speaker 1>morning brew as well. Does he holds like a full

0:30:07.720 --> 0:30:09.880
<v Speaker 1>scale like old news microft. I think people need to

0:30:09.880 --> 0:30:10.479
<v Speaker 1>go back to that.

0:30:10.520 --> 0:30:12.840
<v Speaker 3>I love the subway takes guy has it on like

0:30:12.840 --> 0:30:14.560
<v Speaker 3>a little yah yeah level.

0:30:14.720 --> 0:30:17.160
<v Speaker 1>I think that that's lovely as well. But it's like

0:30:17.920 --> 0:30:19.960
<v Speaker 1>I hadn't really thought about how it drives people insane,

0:30:20.000 --> 0:30:22.400
<v Speaker 1>but it does. Even early days of the newsletters, it

0:30:22.560 --> 0:30:24.280
<v Speaker 1>takes Matt Weinberger, friend of the show, be.

0:30:24.240 --> 0:30:25.840
<v Speaker 3>Like, is this ship the people like?

0:30:25.920 --> 0:30:28.280
<v Speaker 1>Just keep writing, just to ignore, just keep writing. It

0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:31.000
<v Speaker 1>will grow naturally. But we've been conditioned for this thing

0:30:31.000 --> 0:30:35.000
<v Speaker 1>where we're constantly even me and I try and pretend

0:30:35.080 --> 0:30:37.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't get affected by stuff for this, but it's like,

0:30:37.400 --> 0:30:39.280
<v Speaker 1>you see something do well or don't do well. Your

0:30:39.360 --> 0:30:42.360
<v Speaker 1>natural inclination is why what can I do to it?

0:30:42.400 --> 0:30:45.120
<v Speaker 1>Am I wrong? Am I? Somehow? And it's interesting how

0:30:45.160 --> 0:30:47.600
<v Speaker 1>so much this comes back to the platform incentives.

0:30:47.280 --> 0:30:50.640
<v Speaker 3>Right, and the human inside you assumes people don't like it, right,

0:30:50.920 --> 0:30:54.040
<v Speaker 3>that's your initial reaction to it, I'd say, I always

0:30:54.080 --> 0:30:59.640
<v Speaker 3>find your boss Nileli. He's always talking about how the

0:30:59.800 --> 0:31:01.520
<v Speaker 3>verse just just has to be true to what it's

0:31:01.560 --> 0:31:04.360
<v Speaker 3>doing and not sort of bow to any of the

0:31:04.400 --> 0:31:06.200
<v Speaker 3>platforms as they go. And I think that's always been

0:31:06.240 --> 0:31:09.000
<v Speaker 3>a very good lesson because I think too many media

0:31:09.000 --> 0:31:11.240
<v Speaker 3>outlets we sit here and go, oh, Okay, this is

0:31:11.240 --> 0:31:13.400
<v Speaker 3>the thing that's working on TikTok. We're gonna sit down

0:31:13.400 --> 0:31:15.240
<v Speaker 3>and in a certain way, we're going to do it

0:31:15.280 --> 0:31:17.920
<v Speaker 3>in a certain tone. And I've had previous employers where

0:31:17.920 --> 0:31:19.360
<v Speaker 3>they're like, oh, just trying to do it off the cuff,

0:31:19.400 --> 0:31:21.920
<v Speaker 3>and I'm like, well, when you work for them, I

0:31:21.960 --> 0:31:25.520
<v Speaker 3>stress a previous employee, I would argue with my editors

0:31:25.560 --> 0:31:29.240
<v Speaker 3>and saying authentic for us was to not do that.

0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:32.000
<v Speaker 3>And it's a very sort of hello fellow kids thing

0:31:32.040 --> 0:31:35.480
<v Speaker 3>that happened. Serious places tried to be all like hey,

0:31:35.600 --> 0:31:37.200
<v Speaker 3>you know, like in the same way that when a

0:31:37.240 --> 0:31:40.840
<v Speaker 3>politician like Chuck Schumer tries to do some TikTok joke,

0:31:40.880 --> 0:31:43.400
<v Speaker 3>it's like it's not real, it doesn't and it's embarrassing

0:31:43.440 --> 0:31:46.600
<v Speaker 3>and it's patronizing to the people. So yeah, also off.

0:31:46.520 --> 0:31:48.480
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, can you just do something off the calf. Oh

0:31:48.480 --> 0:31:51.240
<v Speaker 1>you would like me to fake spontaneity, Absolutely, I'll get

0:31:51.600 --> 0:31:54.320
<v Speaker 1>But it's it gets back to the credit to Neili Hear.

0:31:54.400 --> 0:31:57.560
<v Speaker 1>The term Google zero, I think is really interesting because

0:31:57.680 --> 0:31:59.800
<v Speaker 1>this idea that and as you wrote about recently Day

0:32:00.160 --> 0:32:03.920
<v Speaker 1>that Google is basically possibly taking away the traffic from

0:32:03.920 --> 0:32:06.480
<v Speaker 1>everyone or dictating who gets traffic now in a very

0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:08.520
<v Speaker 1>direct way. They're not one they control because it's a

0:32:08.600 --> 0:32:11.520
<v Speaker 1>large language model, or at least controlling, it's indirect, and

0:32:11.560 --> 0:32:16.000
<v Speaker 1>I think it's it's almost like a final mut like

0:32:16.040 --> 0:32:18.400
<v Speaker 1>Boxer in animal Farm being marched to the glue factory,

0:32:18.400 --> 0:32:21.680
<v Speaker 1>the final way you've outlived your usefulness. And I feel

0:32:21.680 --> 0:32:23.440
<v Speaker 1>like the media and I, by the way, I say

0:32:23.480 --> 0:32:26.000
<v Speaker 1>this with a great deal of sympathy. Yeah, you're going

0:32:26.040 --> 0:32:28.240
<v Speaker 1>to chase, which would get you clicks for your click

0:32:28.320 --> 0:32:32.000
<v Speaker 1>driven business. But I think you've seen where at the

0:32:32.120 --> 0:32:33.880
<v Speaker 1>end or the beginning of a dark kind of like

0:32:33.960 --> 0:32:37.200
<v Speaker 1>semi dark era where we're seeing the cost of orienting

0:32:37.280 --> 0:32:41.480
<v Speaker 1>journalism around trends and clicks so aggressively, and we're kind

0:32:41.480 --> 0:32:44.880
<v Speaker 1>of now little boomers and everything. We're seeing the natural

0:32:44.880 --> 0:32:47.720
<v Speaker 1>result of orienting things around trend chasing because It's like,

0:32:47.800 --> 0:32:50.640
<v Speaker 1>here's a thing that has no real resell value that

0:32:50.680 --> 0:32:53.560
<v Speaker 1>owning it is just symbolic. Do you care about the show? Now?

0:32:54.120 --> 0:32:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Why are you making these news stories? Well, it's because

0:32:57.080 --> 0:32:58.560
<v Speaker 1>people are going to be looking for them. Why are

0:32:58.560 --> 0:33:00.840
<v Speaker 1>you covering the same thing as everyone else? Because everyone's

0:33:00.840 --> 0:33:02.959
<v Speaker 1>looking And there's a fair argument for that. If there

0:33:03.040 --> 0:33:04.680
<v Speaker 1>is a big funding round or a big news story,

0:33:04.680 --> 0:33:08.080
<v Speaker 1>of course everyone's going to cover it. And it's like

0:33:08.360 --> 0:33:12.080
<v Speaker 1>the functionality of journalism. And I think this Google AI

0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:16.320
<v Speaker 1>thing is it's scary, man. I think like Neela got

0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:17.280
<v Speaker 1>there early. I'll give him this.

0:33:17.800 --> 0:33:20.160
<v Speaker 2>The other one thing I'll say about the Google zero

0:33:20.440 --> 0:33:22.520
<v Speaker 2>this idea that you know, the traffic will go down

0:33:22.600 --> 0:33:23.520
<v Speaker 2>until it hits nothing.

0:33:23.600 --> 0:33:24.560
<v Speaker 1>I don't think it will hit nothing.

0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:28.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think for some people it has basically hit nothing. However,

0:33:28.920 --> 0:33:31.800
<v Speaker 2>I will say that like and I posted this on

0:33:31.840 --> 0:33:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Blue Sky, but this has just been the mo for

0:33:34.680 --> 0:33:39.200
<v Speaker 2>Google and with search for years before AI overviews. The

0:33:39.280 --> 0:33:44.080
<v Speaker 2>idea that Google is self dealing, right, that it creates

0:33:44.120 --> 0:33:46.800
<v Speaker 2>products that then replace the things that other people were

0:33:46.800 --> 0:33:50.840
<v Speaker 2>doing in search. That is old news. And it's funny

0:33:50.880 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 2>that you know people are kind of that the AI

0:33:53.920 --> 0:33:56.560
<v Speaker 2>overview of it all is what kind of finally makes

0:33:56.560 --> 0:33:59.800
<v Speaker 2>people realize it. When I worked at the Markup, we

0:34:00.080 --> 0:34:05.360
<v Speaker 2>and the story by some great former colleagues that like,

0:34:05.480 --> 0:34:09.120
<v Speaker 2>measured the percentage of the first page of Google results

0:34:09.160 --> 0:34:11.360
<v Speaker 2>on a phone screen, how much of that space was

0:34:11.360 --> 0:34:13.120
<v Speaker 2>taken up by Google products itself, and it was like

0:34:13.160 --> 0:34:17.799
<v Speaker 2>forty one percent. And that killed websites like celebrity net worth,

0:34:18.080 --> 0:34:21.759
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, or like travel companies because

0:34:21.800 --> 0:34:27.040
<v Speaker 2>Google had flights shopping, right, like all of these services

0:34:27.040 --> 0:34:29.919
<v Speaker 2>that other sites were providing, Google just made its own

0:34:30.000 --> 0:34:31.920
<v Speaker 2>version and they were like, we're gonna put this at

0:34:31.920 --> 0:34:34.279
<v Speaker 2>the top. That's what That's what's happening with AI, which

0:34:34.280 --> 0:34:34.719
<v Speaker 2>is the.

0:34:34.640 --> 0:34:37.800
<v Speaker 3>Same thing with in those cases in Europe they regulated

0:34:37.840 --> 0:34:40.480
<v Speaker 3>against it, right, So when when these companies come and say, oh,

0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:43.400
<v Speaker 3>Europe's being so overbearing, or that's what they're talking about, right,

0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:46.120
<v Speaker 3>they're talking about the fact that Google Shopping can't dominate

0:34:46.160 --> 0:34:48.080
<v Speaker 3>the top twenty percent of a search page when you

0:34:48.080 --> 0:34:50.520
<v Speaker 3>search for you know, iPad or whatever you know. So

0:34:51.880 --> 0:34:54.080
<v Speaker 3>that's what was they were so aggrieved by. And I

0:34:54.160 --> 0:34:56.000
<v Speaker 3>mean even but now with all the I mean, I

0:34:56.040 --> 0:34:58.160
<v Speaker 3>was on my my brother on myself and the vantage

0:34:58.280 --> 0:34:59.600
<v Speaker 3>it was I was scrolling for.

0:34:59.640 --> 0:35:04.120
<v Speaker 2>Days and now they're doing the entirely AI generated whole page.

0:35:04.160 --> 0:35:09.279
<v Speaker 2>Did you see this? Yeah, I forget what it's called.

0:35:09.280 --> 0:35:11.360
<v Speaker 2>I would have to look it up, but they announced

0:35:11.400 --> 0:35:14.600
<v Speaker 2>it last Friday, Thursday or Friday. And basically it's separate

0:35:14.600 --> 0:35:17.520
<v Speaker 2>from AI mode. You search for something and it creates

0:35:18.440 --> 0:35:22.239
<v Speaker 2>honestly exactly what web pages look like websites and it

0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:24.560
<v Speaker 2>is you know, it'll have a section if you search

0:35:24.600 --> 0:35:27.000
<v Speaker 2>I think the example they gave was like solo traveling

0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:29.840
<v Speaker 2>in Japan, and the top part will be like reddit

0:35:30.080 --> 0:35:33.680
<v Speaker 2>and reddit and YouTube posts, so like communities or forums.

0:35:34.000 --> 0:35:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Then there will be a whole different section of the serp,

0:35:36.400 --> 0:35:39.880
<v Speaker 2>the search engine result page that is, yes, that is

0:35:40.120 --> 0:35:43.200
<v Speaker 2>web guide, web Guide, web Guide, and then it'll be

0:35:43.280 --> 0:35:45.480
<v Speaker 2>sort of like you know, top places to go and

0:35:45.600 --> 0:35:48.440
<v Speaker 2>it will pull stuff in from Expedia or not Expedia,

0:35:48.800 --> 0:35:52.560
<v Speaker 2>trip Advisor, things like that. It's it basically sub sections

0:35:52.920 --> 0:35:56.040
<v Speaker 2>the SERP to look like an SEO generated or like

0:35:56.040 --> 0:35:58.600
<v Speaker 2>an SEO driven article. It's it's really crazy.

0:35:58.640 --> 0:36:01.520
<v Speaker 1>It's the snake that is, who needs websites?

0:36:02.000 --> 0:36:03.239
<v Speaker 3>No, But it's all over, isn't it?

0:36:03.280 --> 0:36:06.440
<v Speaker 1>But that's the thing, it's the net. It's ironic as

0:36:06.480 --> 0:36:08.600
<v Speaker 1>well because the origins of Google were based on this

0:36:08.680 --> 0:36:10.840
<v Speaker 1>idea that there was too much original content for you

0:36:10.920 --> 0:36:13.120
<v Speaker 1>to find it alone, and it was kind of noble.

0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:15.080
<v Speaker 1>And also within the original paper they were like, yeah,

0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:17.680
<v Speaker 1>if ads ever get involved with this, it's fucked. Man.

0:36:17.719 --> 0:36:20.560
<v Speaker 1>Were they right? But it's this sense of they've never

0:36:20.600 --> 0:36:23.279
<v Speaker 1>had much gratitude towards the web, and you made me

0:36:23.400 --> 0:36:26.440
<v Speaker 1>actually think of something went with traffic dropping away. This

0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:28.840
<v Speaker 1>is also if you read like Search Engine Journal and

0:36:29.239 --> 0:36:31.239
<v Speaker 1>like these are great publications, by the way, you want

0:36:31.239 --> 0:36:34.040
<v Speaker 1>to see some real like journalists as journalists, people that

0:36:34.120 --> 0:36:36.600
<v Speaker 1>read SEO and talk to SEO people, or day Jesus

0:36:36.680 --> 0:36:40.840
<v Speaker 1>Christ rusty over there. But there were so many situations

0:36:40.880 --> 0:36:43.800
<v Speaker 1>where traffic has just disappeared from it from a concept

0:36:43.960 --> 0:36:46.840
<v Speaker 1>and they just Google went no, not today. The idea

0:36:46.840 --> 0:36:49.279
<v Speaker 1>that they're building pages like this is fascinating as well,

0:36:49.320 --> 0:36:52.919
<v Speaker 1>because it's like, wow, we don't need you anymore, Yes,

0:36:53.000 --> 0:36:55.480
<v Speaker 1>you fucking do, dick. What how is it going to

0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:57.759
<v Speaker 1>generate the page? What's it going to be based on?

0:36:58.120 --> 0:37:02.200
<v Speaker 1>And they're they're thought, I imagine, I'm guessing is likely. Oh,

0:37:02.239 --> 0:37:05.680
<v Speaker 1>people won't notice. I think people will. I think they will.

0:37:06.080 --> 0:37:08.640
<v Speaker 1>I think people will see AI results in, which is

0:37:08.680 --> 0:37:10.920
<v Speaker 1>why the traffic's dropping and go okay. That answers my question.

0:37:11.280 --> 0:37:13.480
<v Speaker 1>But I think an entire fake page people are going

0:37:13.520 --> 0:37:16.440
<v Speaker 1>to be like, okay, and maybe they'll click them, but

0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:18.120
<v Speaker 1>they're not going to stick around on them. They're not

0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:20.640
<v Speaker 1>going to read much. It's not going to be particularly enjoyable.

0:37:20.880 --> 0:37:23.839
<v Speaker 1>But maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am not wrong,

0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:26.239
<v Speaker 1>because if this is an idea of something replacing the

0:37:26.239 --> 0:37:28.960
<v Speaker 1>web that is Google like, that's more Google zero than

0:37:28.960 --> 0:37:29.839
<v Speaker 1>anything I've ever seen.

0:37:30.320 --> 0:37:34.760
<v Speaker 3>Grotesque it It's just part of a pattern of reducing

0:37:34.800 --> 0:37:37.200
<v Speaker 3>any need to go off that yeah, to get And

0:37:37.360 --> 0:37:39.480
<v Speaker 3>one of the most egregious examples of it isn't even AI.

0:37:39.520 --> 0:37:42.600
<v Speaker 3>And every time I say it, it annoys me more

0:37:42.640 --> 0:37:45.560
<v Speaker 3>and more so. One of the things that some publications

0:37:45.560 --> 0:37:47.480
<v Speaker 3>have been quite successful, app bloombo is one of them.

0:37:47.520 --> 0:37:51.360
<v Speaker 3>New York Times famous is games, right word or connections

0:37:51.400 --> 0:37:54.120
<v Speaker 3>or whatever, a little thing that would make people subscribe

0:37:54.120 --> 0:37:55.960
<v Speaker 3>to the app, open the app every day, maybe catch

0:37:56.000 --> 0:37:58.839
<v Speaker 3>a bit of news while they're there, right and now

0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:03.520
<v Speaker 3>LinkedIn doing minigames, And I'm like, what can you explain

0:38:03.560 --> 0:38:04.759
<v Speaker 3>this LinkedIn games?

0:38:04.840 --> 0:38:06.920
<v Speaker 1>Because I got the pop up for the Apple News

0:38:06.920 --> 0:38:08.480
<v Speaker 1>thing and I think I posted it on Instagram and

0:38:08.560 --> 0:38:11.440
<v Speaker 1>I don't know what this ship is just it's but

0:38:11.480 --> 0:38:12.920
<v Speaker 1>one of these LinkedIn games please walk.

0:38:13.040 --> 0:38:15.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean they're just little word games. I mean, there's nothing.

0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:17.879
<v Speaker 3>They're just trying to sort of do you know. I've

0:38:17.880 --> 0:38:19.920
<v Speaker 3>not played the LinkedIn once, but the Apple ones just

0:38:20.000 --> 0:38:22.040
<v Speaker 3>mini crossword that kind of stuff. The thing with the

0:38:22.120 --> 0:38:24.200
<v Speaker 3>LinkedIn is I find quite funny is it will tell

0:38:24.239 --> 0:38:27.560
<v Speaker 3>you how many of your colleagues have that, and it's like, oh,

0:38:27.600 --> 0:38:29.360
<v Speaker 3>three hundred of your colleagues a Bloomberg have done the

0:38:29.360 --> 0:38:31.960
<v Speaker 3>mini cross That's that's really a useful information.

0:38:32.080 --> 0:38:34.680
<v Speaker 2>I imagine the crossword answer for every single day on

0:38:34.680 --> 0:38:38.239
<v Speaker 2>LinkedIn is just like hustle, rise, grind or.

0:38:38.480 --> 0:38:40.920
<v Speaker 3>That would be quite fun, though, Yeah, that would make

0:38:40.960 --> 0:38:41.680
<v Speaker 3>me sort of go for it.

0:38:41.760 --> 0:38:45.239
<v Speaker 1>That would require too much like charm and thought.

0:38:44.360 --> 0:38:47.960
<v Speaker 2>But LinkedIn, if you're listening, I can write your games.

0:38:48.160 --> 0:38:52.440
<v Speaker 1>Also, they added vertical video to LinkedIn evil and I

0:38:52.480 --> 0:38:55.320
<v Speaker 1>think that if you post one of those, someone should

0:38:55.320 --> 0:38:59.399
<v Speaker 1>come visit your house. They're like, no, I'm thinking more

0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:02.200
<v Speaker 1>like the FB. It's like, what what you got on

0:39:02.239 --> 0:39:04.080
<v Speaker 1>the laptop? Let me let me check that hard drive

0:39:04.080 --> 0:39:07.360
<v Speaker 1>real quick. But it's it's so funny as well, because

0:39:07.360 --> 0:39:09.600
<v Speaker 1>all this is just coming down to please click our website.

0:39:09.640 --> 0:39:12.080
<v Speaker 1>Please don't leave our website. Our website is the most important.

0:39:12.120 --> 0:39:17.400
<v Speaker 1>It almost feels just desperate, like it feels the TikTok generally.

0:39:17.560 --> 0:39:20.320
<v Speaker 1>And I don't say this with any I. TikTok upsets

0:39:20.320 --> 0:39:21.960
<v Speaker 1>me when I use it. I need the at the

0:39:22.000 --> 0:39:24.279
<v Speaker 1>page to end. This is just a weird thing in

0:39:24.280 --> 0:39:26.680
<v Speaker 1>my brain. I'm like, no, infinite makes me. I don't

0:39:26.680 --> 0:39:27.800
<v Speaker 1>want to look at this forever.

0:39:27.960 --> 0:39:30.480
<v Speaker 3>Have you ever reached the clip that says, hey, you've

0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:31.439
<v Speaker 3>been scrolling for a while.

0:39:31.520 --> 0:39:33.960
<v Speaker 1>No, see, I feel like I'm to anyone who's.

0:39:33.719 --> 0:39:36.200
<v Speaker 3>Ever seen this, I've hit it. Yeah, okay, it's not

0:39:36.239 --> 0:39:38.360
<v Speaker 3>the most depressing. It's so bad, doesn't it.

0:39:38.480 --> 0:39:40.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. At that point, I'm like, god, damn, I need

0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:40.440
<v Speaker 2>to go.

0:39:40.920 --> 0:39:42.920
<v Speaker 3>You know what about like a click? If you've been

0:39:42.920 --> 0:39:44.960
<v Speaker 3>scrolling and it must be like an hour and a half,

0:39:45.040 --> 0:39:47.680
<v Speaker 3>maybe I get really anxious it will please you know

0:39:47.960 --> 0:39:48.920
<v Speaker 3>you've been doing this a long time.

0:39:49.000 --> 0:39:50.600
<v Speaker 1>I need to hit the end. If I if I

0:39:50.800 --> 0:39:52.520
<v Speaker 1>get the sense that there's no end. I'm like, I

0:39:52.560 --> 0:39:56.720
<v Speaker 1>can't look at it like what I require time to end? Please.

0:39:56.880 --> 0:40:01.040
<v Speaker 2>But that sort of limitless space is why we get

0:40:01.239 --> 0:40:02.919
<v Speaker 2>derivative content, you know what I mean?

0:40:02.960 --> 0:40:04.600
<v Speaker 1>Like that that's kind of because people want more.

0:40:04.800 --> 0:40:07.200
<v Speaker 2>People want more, and also it just if there's space,

0:40:07.239 --> 0:40:08.880
<v Speaker 2>someone will fill it. Yeah, And that was kind of

0:40:08.920 --> 0:40:10.760
<v Speaker 2>what I was trying to get at in my dupe story,

0:40:10.800 --> 0:40:12.960
<v Speaker 2>which is like the same thing that happens on an

0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:17.440
<v Speaker 2>infinite scroll feed on recommendation based social media platforms is

0:40:17.480 --> 0:40:20.040
<v Speaker 2>happening to like our physical goods simply because there is

0:40:20.120 --> 0:40:24.400
<v Speaker 2>Amazon space. There are Amazon pages to fill, and you

0:40:24.480 --> 0:40:27.080
<v Speaker 2>need ideas the same way that a content creator needs

0:40:27.080 --> 0:40:29.920
<v Speaker 2>ideas to post every single day. Like when it is

0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:33.839
<v Speaker 2>so algorithmic and recommendations based and taste space, it's just

0:40:33.880 --> 0:40:36.239
<v Speaker 2>like just throw whatever, and I have space there.

0:40:36.280 --> 0:40:38.440
<v Speaker 1>And I hate to defend the platforms at all. I

0:40:38.480 --> 0:40:41.319
<v Speaker 1>think the thing you said earlier about people did make

0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:44.600
<v Speaker 1>shit content before actually really did resonate because it's there's

0:40:44.600 --> 0:40:46.560
<v Speaker 1>also a degree here of yeah, there's a bunch of

0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:50.359
<v Speaker 1>derivative content, but there's also consumer demand and yeah, as

0:40:50.440 --> 0:40:52.239
<v Speaker 1>human beings, we want to see more of a thing

0:40:52.280 --> 0:40:54.680
<v Speaker 1>we're interested in. I do think part of the unhealthy

0:40:54.680 --> 0:40:57.440
<v Speaker 1>parts of the Internet is we can feel just about anything,

0:40:57.719 --> 0:41:01.200
<v Speaker 1>perhaps not for the best, but it's and there's a

0:41:01.200 --> 0:41:04.000
<v Speaker 1>goodness to it, as well as many alternative communities that

0:41:04.040 --> 0:41:06.839
<v Speaker 1>have found good things online and then others. But it's

0:41:07.480 --> 0:41:11.120
<v Speaker 1>interesting because it's fulfilling the need of needing an infinite scroll,

0:41:11.160 --> 0:41:14.120
<v Speaker 1>which is a need that they created on the platforms themselves.

0:41:15.040 --> 0:41:17.400
<v Speaker 1>And I also found that story interesting because you didn't

0:41:17.719 --> 0:41:19.880
<v Speaker 1>really have sympathy with any Like it felt like you

0:41:19.880 --> 0:41:22.319
<v Speaker 1>were empathetic for everyone, but not sympathetic to anyone. It

0:41:22.360 --> 0:41:24.480
<v Speaker 1>was like you recognize why people did these things, and

0:41:24.520 --> 0:41:27.080
<v Speaker 1>why people want jeups of expensive things is probably because

0:41:27.280 --> 0:41:29.520
<v Speaker 1>the thing's too expensive. But then you had the skirt

0:41:29.560 --> 0:41:33.720
<v Speaker 1>worn by the by Taylor Swift. Yeah, I like Scott.

0:41:36.040 --> 0:41:39.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. I really like stories where you read it and

0:41:39.719 --> 0:41:41.880
<v Speaker 2>your allegiance changes. I think that's like one of my

0:41:41.920 --> 0:41:44.839
<v Speaker 2>favorite things to write. And when I when I can

0:41:44.920 --> 0:41:47.200
<v Speaker 2>figure out ways to put it into that format, I

0:41:47.239 --> 0:41:50.439
<v Speaker 2>really enjoy it. But yeah, I mean like I don't

0:41:50.480 --> 0:41:55.279
<v Speaker 2>really love the debate going into like who's right and

0:41:55.320 --> 0:41:58.400
<v Speaker 2>who's wrong, because it's just like not that helpful and

0:41:58.520 --> 0:42:01.920
<v Speaker 2>not that interesting. That feels more like, you know, just

0:42:02.160 --> 0:42:05.000
<v Speaker 2>gossip or something. But I like this idea that like

0:42:05.040 --> 0:42:07.799
<v Speaker 2>everyone is a little bit being taken in advantage of,

0:42:07.840 --> 0:42:09.439
<v Speaker 2>and everyone also sucks a bit here.

0:42:23.560 --> 0:42:25.480
<v Speaker 1>And I also think that there is a certain degree

0:42:25.520 --> 0:42:28.279
<v Speaker 1>of human beings take advantage of other human beings too.

0:42:28.400 --> 0:42:30.920
<v Speaker 1>They rip offs the I'm the person, I'm the La

0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:34.759
<v Speaker 1>Booboo whisperer. It's a great quote there, like I'm the

0:42:34.760 --> 0:42:36.560
<v Speaker 1>person that can help you find the thing. There are

0:42:36.800 --> 0:42:40.320
<v Speaker 1>all of these channels about how you can gambling, tips

0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:43.239
<v Speaker 1>about how you can buy and resell stuff. There are

0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:46.440
<v Speaker 1>ethically dubious things that pop up on the Internet, but

0:42:46.480 --> 0:42:49.440
<v Speaker 1>there's also hunger for it, those people taking advantage just

0:42:49.480 --> 0:42:52.040
<v Speaker 1>as much as the incentives of the platform take advantage people.

0:42:52.080 --> 0:42:54.680
<v Speaker 1>I think the platforms are generally more evil because they

0:42:54.719 --> 0:42:56.960
<v Speaker 1>have more capacity for harm, but that doesn't mean that

0:42:57.000 --> 0:42:59.719
<v Speaker 1>these small time people would not do evil things even

0:42:59.760 --> 0:43:01.080
<v Speaker 1>give and that scale.

0:43:00.880 --> 0:43:03.320
<v Speaker 3>I sort of the platforms. The difference between how the

0:43:03.360 --> 0:43:06.200
<v Speaker 3>platform behaves and how what people describe as what the

0:43:06.280 --> 0:43:10.120
<v Speaker 3>legacy gatekeepers from you know, yesteryear, is that they don't

0:43:10.160 --> 0:43:13.520
<v Speaker 3>they don't have any sort of standards of what's good right, right,

0:43:13.640 --> 0:43:16.880
<v Speaker 3>So if you're you know, you know, you're running a

0:43:17.000 --> 0:43:22.680
<v Speaker 3>children's television company Nickelodeon, Children's, BBC, whatever, you're not commissioning

0:43:22.680 --> 0:43:25.200
<v Speaker 3>a show like Mister Beast or whatever, because you just

0:43:25.760 --> 0:43:29.439
<v Speaker 3>something makes you going, oh, is this really what we want? Here?

0:43:29.600 --> 0:43:31.360
<v Speaker 3>Is like, do we want to make it that everyone's

0:43:31.360 --> 0:43:34.319
<v Speaker 3>obsessed with money and they're willing to sort of do

0:43:34.400 --> 0:43:39.200
<v Speaker 3>these crazy stunts, embarrass themselves or whatever. And you make

0:43:39.239 --> 0:43:42.640
<v Speaker 3>those decisions despite knowing that people would lap it up,

0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:44.759
<v Speaker 3>people would go crazy. And I think you could say

0:43:44.760 --> 0:43:47.000
<v Speaker 3>the same thing about sexualized content. You can say say

0:43:47.040 --> 0:43:49.120
<v Speaker 3>the same things about about gambling. I think, yeah, you

0:43:49.160 --> 0:43:51.920
<v Speaker 3>could do a great show about people gambling on sports whole.

0:43:52.320 --> 0:43:54.040
<v Speaker 1>We have one of back during the Super Bowl, and

0:43:54.520 --> 0:43:56.920
<v Speaker 1>many listeners did not like that he talked about sports.

0:43:56.960 --> 0:43:59.480
<v Speaker 1>But it gets back to the same incentives, Like you're saying, though,

0:43:59.560 --> 0:44:01.440
<v Speaker 1>it's people take advantage of people.

0:44:01.480 --> 0:44:03.279
<v Speaker 3>But I think there used to be this idea that

0:44:03.680 --> 0:44:07.400
<v Speaker 3>the major companies, when they're even down to say sixty

0:44:07.400 --> 0:44:09.880
<v Speaker 3>minutes right on CBS, they would say, right, is this

0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:11.960
<v Speaker 3>genuinely important? And do we need to do? And I

0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:14.719
<v Speaker 3>think when the platforms don't apply those same standards. What

0:44:14.760 --> 0:44:17.360
<v Speaker 3>it means is is that the people with just completely

0:44:17.440 --> 0:44:21.239
<v Speaker 3>nonsense theories and opinions just get on that same surface

0:44:21.760 --> 0:44:26.000
<v Speaker 3>where any TV producer worth their salt of tool would go, Okay, well,

0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:27.480
<v Speaker 3>we're not going to put this guy on because what

0:44:27.600 --> 0:44:30.239
<v Speaker 3>is qualifications? Don't you know? We don't know if he's

0:44:30.280 --> 0:44:32.799
<v Speaker 3>talking gibberish or not. So there's been problems with that

0:44:33.200 --> 0:44:35.600
<v Speaker 3>in terms of who gets on. But like, I think

0:44:35.640 --> 0:44:37.440
<v Speaker 3>it's I think it's better maybe in some respect.

0:44:37.560 --> 0:44:40.560
<v Speaker 1>No, and I think that, But you're also touching on something,

0:44:40.600 --> 0:44:44.040
<v Speaker 1>which is these platforms have, despite what they're doing right now,

0:44:44.080 --> 0:44:46.120
<v Speaker 1>have always acted as if they're never going to be

0:44:46.120 --> 0:44:48.920
<v Speaker 1>the arbiters of what is used as content. It's just

0:44:48.920 --> 0:44:51.160
<v Speaker 1>like we're helping you find stuff. But it's very clear

0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:53.480
<v Speaker 1>that they're they want to be the producer or at

0:44:53.520 --> 0:44:57.279
<v Speaker 1>least mimic being a producer as well. And it's very

0:44:57.320 --> 0:45:00.799
<v Speaker 1>interesting all because everything we're discussing is just incentives. It's

0:45:00.840 --> 0:45:03.920
<v Speaker 1>incentives and how people are drawn by it. Because you

0:45:03.960 --> 0:45:08.480
<v Speaker 1>mentioned nutters like people like no, I mention utters. No,

0:45:08.760 --> 0:45:11.759
<v Speaker 1>I mean just like people of dubious intent intent and

0:45:11.840 --> 0:45:16.000
<v Speaker 1>content people like Curtis Jarvin or Eliza Yudkowski or these

0:45:16.160 --> 0:45:19.439
<v Speaker 1>less wrong freaks they were ten years ago, they would

0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:22.080
<v Speaker 1>have never had them. I would say, they would have

0:45:22.400 --> 0:45:25.480
<v Speaker 1>likely not got a New York Times whatever. But I

0:45:25.520 --> 0:45:27.680
<v Speaker 1>think what that is is actually a mashing between everything

0:45:27.680 --> 0:45:30.040
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about, which is ten years ago there wasn't

0:45:30.040 --> 0:45:32.279
<v Speaker 1>perhaps the poll of SEO. There wasn't the pool of

0:45:32.360 --> 0:45:35.120
<v Speaker 1>tons of online content suggesting that we need to talk

0:45:35.160 --> 0:45:37.239
<v Speaker 1>to this guy and humor him seriously. There was tons

0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:40.400
<v Speaker 1>of purporting saying these people were evil. But now I

0:45:40.480 --> 0:45:42.800
<v Speaker 1>genuinely think some of these things or some might get clicks,

0:45:42.880 --> 0:45:45.399
<v Speaker 1>or they'll see the interviews that these people get five

0:45:45.480 --> 0:45:47.480
<v Speaker 1>hundred thousand views, So they're drawn by all these new

0:45:47.520 --> 0:45:51.359
<v Speaker 1>incentives versus having an actual quality bar. I do think

0:45:51.400 --> 0:45:55.600
<v Speaker 1>it is funny, though, that these companies to this day

0:45:55.600 --> 0:45:57.800
<v Speaker 1>are still pretending that they have no responsibility for the

0:45:57.840 --> 0:46:00.839
<v Speaker 1>content they have no they have no quality standards they

0:46:00.880 --> 0:46:03.759
<v Speaker 1>need to maintain, and indeed they will tweak them to

0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:06.800
<v Speaker 1>whatever level. I'm not even saying that anything has changed.

0:46:07.920 --> 0:46:10.640
<v Speaker 3>I mean there's been changes in the sense that they

0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:14.960
<v Speaker 3>I think, well, I struggled to give Facebook too much

0:46:15.000 --> 0:46:17.879
<v Speaker 3>credit on this, but you know, they definitely have made

0:46:17.920 --> 0:46:22.440
<v Speaker 3>tweaks around just having you know, a regular family member

0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:25.560
<v Speaker 3>talk on Facebook and that being driven to. But what

0:46:25.600 --> 0:46:28.799
<v Speaker 3>they've what they've kind of pivoted to. And maybe they've

0:46:28.800 --> 0:46:30.759
<v Speaker 3>done it not out of any sort of obligation to

0:46:30.800 --> 0:46:33.280
<v Speaker 3>improve the problem, but because they realize now that content

0:46:33.320 --> 0:46:35.399
<v Speaker 3>made by people you don't know, that's sort of made

0:46:35.440 --> 0:46:36.560
<v Speaker 3>in a certain way, you're going to look at that

0:46:36.600 --> 0:46:38.239
<v Speaker 3>for longer anyway, So they don't care.

0:46:38.239 --> 0:46:40.040
<v Speaker 2>There's more of it. Yeah, there are more people that

0:46:40.040 --> 0:46:41.040
<v Speaker 2>you don't have them do.

0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:44.000
<v Speaker 3>And which is a really interesting mean I find now

0:46:44.040 --> 0:46:46.560
<v Speaker 3>and the only time I get any utility from the

0:46:46.560 --> 0:46:48.640
<v Speaker 3>Facebook app is when it says here's what you're doing

0:46:48.680 --> 0:46:50.719
<v Speaker 3>ten years ago, And I'll take a screenshot of that,

0:46:50.760 --> 0:46:52.319
<v Speaker 3>send it to whoever it was there, and go, look,

0:46:52.320 --> 0:46:54.160
<v Speaker 3>can you believe that was ten years ago? And that's

0:46:54.200 --> 0:46:55.680
<v Speaker 3>going to start running out soon. I think I'm going

0:46:55.680 --> 0:46:57.120
<v Speaker 3>to run out of those sort of you know, membe

0:46:57.120 --> 0:46:58.919
<v Speaker 3>because the people don't post it. But that time when

0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:00.600
<v Speaker 3>it used to be a platform and where you'd have

0:47:00.640 --> 0:47:02.560
<v Speaker 3>like a party and the next day there'd be you know,

0:47:02.800 --> 0:47:04.880
<v Speaker 3>undred photos of people tagged it. I mean that feels

0:47:04.880 --> 0:47:06.080
<v Speaker 3>like a completely different way.

0:47:06.080 --> 0:47:08.160
<v Speaker 1>It was so nice as well, like when I got created.

0:47:08.840 --> 0:47:09.399
<v Speaker 3>That's the thing.

0:47:09.560 --> 0:47:12.359
<v Speaker 1>Like as angry as I am at these platforms, it's

0:47:12.520 --> 0:47:14.760
<v Speaker 1>broken heart of romantic because when I got on Facebook,

0:47:14.760 --> 0:47:16.759
<v Speaker 1>it was genuinely magical. Like you said, you go to

0:47:16.800 --> 0:47:20.120
<v Speaker 1>a party, someone like ten ship webcam photos would be

0:47:20.160 --> 0:47:22.120
<v Speaker 1>up there you see, yeah.

0:47:21.920 --> 0:47:22.120
<v Speaker 3>And you.

0:47:23.840 --> 0:47:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Or just like you'd see someone that you talk to

0:47:25.640 --> 0:47:27.080
<v Speaker 1>for a minute and you were friends. I had tons

0:47:27.080 --> 0:47:28.920
<v Speaker 1>of friends at Penn State, for example, and there was

0:47:28.960 --> 0:47:31.640
<v Speaker 1>something like nice about that. And I guess that that

0:47:31.840 --> 0:47:34.440
<v Speaker 1>was just before they realized how much money they could make,

0:47:34.560 --> 0:47:36.040
<v Speaker 1>or before they went to public and.

0:47:36.000 --> 0:47:39.880
<v Speaker 2>They realized too that you know, humans have an endless

0:47:39.880 --> 0:47:43.000
<v Speaker 2>appetite for slop, not even AI slap. It's just like

0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:46.080
<v Speaker 2>if you give them a scrollly feed, they will just

0:47:46.160 --> 0:47:49.000
<v Speaker 2>keep going until we hit the danger zone.

0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:51.120
<v Speaker 3>Which does Facebook have a danger zone?

0:47:51.400 --> 0:47:55.120
<v Speaker 2>Up? I don't think so, I don't think, just like

0:47:55.440 --> 0:47:56.160
<v Speaker 2>don't look at the stame.

0:47:56.280 --> 0:47:59.560
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's and I think it's the shift away from

0:47:59.600 --> 0:48:02.480
<v Speaker 1>their claimed utility towards the real one that they want,

0:48:02.520 --> 0:48:04.880
<v Speaker 1>which is they all want to be entertainment networks. Because

0:48:05.239 --> 0:48:09.080
<v Speaker 1>this concept of we ran out of stuff. That is it.

0:48:09.080 --> 0:48:11.360
<v Speaker 1>It's like you go on Facebook, you check Facebook and

0:48:11.360 --> 0:48:13.840
<v Speaker 1>you go, oh, this, this and this. Okay, I'm done

0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:17.000
<v Speaker 1>because my utility here is social networks on Google. It

0:48:17.200 --> 0:48:19.279
<v Speaker 1>like I go and look for something. People might do

0:48:19.400 --> 0:48:22.560
<v Speaker 1>idle idle looking, but they're like generally with a target.

0:48:23.640 --> 0:48:27.640
<v Speaker 1>Now you've TikTok was I think created within the realm

0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:30.200
<v Speaker 1>of people want to see stuff like it was. It

0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:32.560
<v Speaker 1>never tried to sell itself as a place where you

0:48:32.600 --> 0:48:35.680
<v Speaker 1>meet your friends, a place where we interact with others. Yeah.

0:48:35.680 --> 0:48:38.280
<v Speaker 2>In fact, it was distinctly this is a place where

0:48:38.320 --> 0:48:40.440
<v Speaker 2>you are not by people, you know, you know what

0:48:40.440 --> 0:48:43.520
<v Speaker 2>I mean. You're posting things to to an assumed audience

0:48:43.520 --> 0:48:46.560
<v Speaker 2>that does not include your parents network. Yeah.

0:48:46.680 --> 0:48:49.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And TikTok doesn't compare to the other networks. TikTok

0:48:49.760 --> 0:48:52.799
<v Speaker 3>doesn't really encourage you to post right when you when

0:48:52.840 --> 0:48:54.600
<v Speaker 3>you when you, If you do one video, then it

0:48:54.600 --> 0:48:56.200
<v Speaker 3>will say oh do this, this, this, this is this.

0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:59.440
<v Speaker 3>But it's quite content for people just to consume if

0:48:59.480 --> 0:49:01.480
<v Speaker 3>that's what they're But it's an entertainment. It's not like

0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:04.080
<v Speaker 3>a huge sort of you know, nudge in the app

0:49:04.080 --> 0:49:06.160
<v Speaker 3>to say, oh, get.

0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:08.360
<v Speaker 1>Posting yeah, and I think we're even with Google, and

0:49:08.480 --> 0:49:11.279
<v Speaker 1>it's like, what is Google anymore? Is it? Are they

0:49:11.280 --> 0:49:13.480
<v Speaker 1>trying to not making it a search? Is it going?

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:15.880
<v Speaker 1>Is a place where Google serve? I mean it always

0:49:15.960 --> 0:49:18.440
<v Speaker 1>was a place where Google served you ads, but now

0:49:18.480 --> 0:49:21.759
<v Speaker 1>it's you were in the Google zone. And I have

0:49:21.800 --> 0:49:24.440
<v Speaker 1>to wonder, if I say this with some optimism, whether

0:49:24.520 --> 0:49:27.040
<v Speaker 1>someone might go, ah, what if we made a search

0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:29.760
<v Speaker 1>engine that helped you find things that could be a

0:49:29.800 --> 0:49:33.040
<v Speaker 1>billion two billion and your revenue business, you know it's

0:49:33.040 --> 0:49:35.040
<v Speaker 1>not one hundred billion. But we also don't need to

0:49:35.960 --> 0:49:40.000
<v Speaker 1>do antitrust shit every year. I'm being even saying these

0:49:40.040 --> 0:49:41.799
<v Speaker 1>words out loud. I'm like, no, that's not going to happen.

0:49:42.600 --> 0:49:43.280
<v Speaker 1>Arab insom.

0:49:43.440 --> 0:49:45.440
<v Speaker 3>I mean, people are trying to make different I mean,

0:49:45.520 --> 0:49:48.680
<v Speaker 3>Duck Duck goes kind of in that pain. But people

0:49:48.719 --> 0:49:50.200
<v Speaker 3>just don't use them. That's the problem.

0:49:50.320 --> 0:49:53.799
<v Speaker 1>And that's the thing. It's like, do they not use

0:49:53.840 --> 0:49:56.319
<v Speaker 1>them or it's just not as many as Google use them.

0:49:56.320 --> 0:49:57.960
<v Speaker 1>I'm not even saying you're wrong, it's just when you

0:49:57.960 --> 0:50:00.399
<v Speaker 1>say people, you mean most people, and yeah, most people

0:50:00.480 --> 0:50:03.840
<v Speaker 1>use Google. Most people stop the start their Internet journey

0:50:03.880 --> 0:50:04.400
<v Speaker 1>on Google.

0:50:04.440 --> 0:50:06.120
<v Speaker 3>I mean The thing that ties a lot of these

0:50:06.120 --> 0:50:09.440
<v Speaker 3>platforms as problems together is the point in which they

0:50:09.480 --> 0:50:12.719
<v Speaker 3>go public. It all just goes nutso right because you

0:50:12.719 --> 0:50:14.799
<v Speaker 3>have I mean, Facebook is the classic example of this.

0:50:14.920 --> 0:50:18.720
<v Speaker 3>It just then it just became massive growth every single

0:50:18.800 --> 0:50:22.319
<v Speaker 3>quarter and that sort of and I think, I mean,

0:50:22.400 --> 0:50:25.080
<v Speaker 3>this is such a sort of basic observation. I guess,

0:50:25.160 --> 0:50:27.080
<v Speaker 3>but you know, I think if you applied that model

0:50:27.120 --> 0:50:30.799
<v Speaker 3>to say the badega on your street, right, Okay, every

0:50:30.880 --> 0:50:32.880
<v Speaker 3>year you need to grow by ten percent, imagine what

0:50:32.920 --> 0:50:34.759
<v Speaker 3>that business is going to go mad? Isn't It's going

0:50:34.800 --> 0:50:36.960
<v Speaker 3>to be selling porn and it's gonna be selling drug

0:50:37.200 --> 0:50:39.279
<v Speaker 3>just just to just to get the margins up right,

0:50:39.320 --> 0:50:43.520
<v Speaker 3>And you're thinking, we're holding that.

0:50:43.680 --> 0:50:45.719
<v Speaker 1>No, this is this is the rot economy. This is

0:50:45.719 --> 0:50:48.840
<v Speaker 1>the growth. It's everything everything driven around growth. It's the

0:50:48.880 --> 0:50:52.160
<v Speaker 1>moment that growth must be perpetual. Because in twenty seventeen

0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:54.319
<v Speaker 1>there was an internal Facebook thing. I've brought it out

0:50:54.400 --> 0:50:57.799
<v Speaker 1>last last year. Big up to Jeff Orwitz Broken Code,

0:50:57.800 --> 0:51:00.040
<v Speaker 1>great book where there's a whole thing where Zuckerberg he

0:51:00.080 --> 0:51:03.680
<v Speaker 1>did twelve percent perpetual growth when you I'm just really

0:51:03.800 --> 0:51:05.960
<v Speaker 1>sat and thought about this that is an insane fucking

0:51:06.000 --> 0:51:08.440
<v Speaker 1>thing to put on a social network. I must have

0:51:08.520 --> 0:51:12.560
<v Speaker 1>more friends, I must connect with more. And it's now

0:51:12.600 --> 0:51:14.840
<v Speaker 1>when you look at everything, that is the incentive everything.

0:51:14.880 --> 0:51:17.440
<v Speaker 1>It's not really about do we buy toys, do we

0:51:17.480 --> 0:51:19.520
<v Speaker 1>search things? How do we keep people here or get

0:51:19.560 --> 0:51:21.879
<v Speaker 1>the credit card? Which is I mean the age old

0:51:21.880 --> 0:51:22.600
<v Speaker 1>capitalism thing.

0:51:22.800 --> 0:51:24.880
<v Speaker 3>The problem was with Facebook is that people didn't have

0:51:25.000 --> 0:51:28.319
<v Speaker 3>enough friends. Yes, exactly rut did constantly is that you've

0:51:28.400 --> 0:51:30.160
<v Speaker 3>run out of stuff, and so then it became, ok, well,

0:51:30.200 --> 0:51:31.920
<v Speaker 3>how do we make them when they're looking at this

0:51:32.040 --> 0:51:34.480
<v Speaker 3>site look on it for longer. And that's when we

0:51:34.520 --> 0:51:36.800
<v Speaker 3>started to get alder mad. It's crazy.

0:51:36.800 --> 0:51:40.040
<v Speaker 1>It was profitable before they took it public. I've read

0:51:40.040 --> 0:51:42.520
<v Speaker 1>stories which suggests that Mark Zuckerberg didn't want to take

0:51:42.560 --> 0:51:45.359
<v Speaker 1>it public, and I'm like fifty to fifty on whether

0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:49.319
<v Speaker 1>he did, because there's enough evidence that suggests that he

0:51:49.360 --> 0:51:51.399
<v Speaker 1>was quite happy with it being a fifty billion dollar

0:51:51.440 --> 0:51:54.480
<v Speaker 1>public a private company. And then I think he realized,

0:51:54.520 --> 0:51:56.200
<v Speaker 1>oh wait, I control this whole thing. I can never

0:51:56.239 --> 0:51:58.719
<v Speaker 1>be fired. But it's like trying to give a soul

0:51:58.840 --> 0:52:00.239
<v Speaker 1>to there's great.

0:52:00.400 --> 0:52:03.160
<v Speaker 3>I mean, Jack Dorsey is probably the famous one. There right,

0:52:03.200 --> 0:52:06.520
<v Speaker 3>he's and he's should never have been a public company,

0:52:06.560 --> 0:52:10.080
<v Speaker 3>and he's right if only been of fine business. But

0:52:10.640 --> 0:52:13.919
<v Speaker 3>people the vcs need their payday, right, that's the whole

0:52:13.960 --> 0:52:15.239
<v Speaker 3>ecosystem could have.

0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:17.440
<v Speaker 1>That's what I always wonder whether we don't have more

0:52:17.480 --> 0:52:21.360
<v Speaker 1>interesting bench capital models with like revenue shares or like

0:52:21.360 --> 0:52:23.799
<v Speaker 1>like something that is more interesting than if I give

0:52:23.800 --> 0:52:25.680
<v Speaker 1>you a bunch of money, this might you might sell

0:52:25.719 --> 0:52:29.600
<v Speaker 1>this in the future. It's it's sad, but it's you

0:52:29.680 --> 0:52:32.200
<v Speaker 1>know what, I want to ask a good question. Are

0:52:32.200 --> 0:52:34.759
<v Speaker 1>there any parts of the Internet you enjoy right now?

0:52:34.840 --> 0:52:35.799
<v Speaker 1>I truly want to know.

0:52:38.360 --> 0:52:40.040
<v Speaker 3>You should have prepped me with this one before.

0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:42.480
<v Speaker 1>It's interesting having the gap.

0:52:42.360 --> 0:52:47.000
<v Speaker 3>Like I'm sort of gravitating towards old style blogs, like weblogs.

0:52:47.120 --> 0:52:48.759
<v Speaker 3>Do you ever see and I think, I don't know

0:52:48.840 --> 0:52:52.640
<v Speaker 3>how plants. I think it's cock Oh yeah, cocky. And

0:52:52.719 --> 0:52:55.360
<v Speaker 3>it's just it's just a blog. There's maybe three or

0:52:55.360 --> 0:52:57.680
<v Speaker 3>four entries a day, and he's been doing it and he's.

0:52:57.600 --> 0:52:59.600
<v Speaker 1>Got twenty years for a long long time.

0:52:59.640 --> 0:53:02.760
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And it's just a beautiful design and the stuff

0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:05.920
<v Speaker 3>is just interesting stuff. It's kind of reminds you of

0:53:05.920 --> 0:53:07.320
<v Speaker 3>the days when you just have a few.

0:53:07.120 --> 0:53:10.080
<v Speaker 1>Weblogs that you'd rate since real traffic as well.

0:53:10.200 --> 0:53:12.719
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I actually it does, but it doesn't mean you

0:53:12.719 --> 0:53:15.480
<v Speaker 3>couldn't launch that side today and gain populator. I think

0:53:15.520 --> 0:53:17.200
<v Speaker 3>you have this sort of legacy of people that have

0:53:17.239 --> 0:53:20.399
<v Speaker 3>always visited that. I actually, although I'm a new reader,

0:53:20.440 --> 0:53:21.399
<v Speaker 3>so maybe I don't know, but.

0:53:21.360 --> 0:53:23.920
<v Speaker 1>I kind of I agree with ninety eight percent of it.

0:53:23.960 --> 0:53:25.799
<v Speaker 1>Other than I think you could do something like this,

0:53:25.960 --> 0:53:29.120
<v Speaker 1>it's just that starting a new thing fucking sucks. Like that.

0:53:29.360 --> 0:53:32.239
<v Speaker 1>I went, and I have some personal experience with this

0:53:32.280 --> 0:53:34.160
<v Speaker 1>in I went and looked back where I was five

0:53:34.239 --> 0:53:37.640
<v Speaker 1>years ago, three hundred subscribers, sixty views on my first piece.

0:53:37.800 --> 0:53:39.520
<v Speaker 1>But you have to have the ability to do a

0:53:39.520 --> 0:53:42.040
<v Speaker 1>bunch of shit until it makes money. And I had

0:53:42.080 --> 0:53:44.279
<v Speaker 1>a main job, had a PR firm, and I think

0:53:44.440 --> 0:53:48.120
<v Speaker 1>just making money in creating anything is so difficult. But

0:53:48.200 --> 0:53:50.480
<v Speaker 1>I love I Actually I had not thought of it

0:53:50.520 --> 0:53:52.360
<v Speaker 1>in a while. But it's just a place where someone

0:53:52.440 --> 0:53:54.719
<v Speaker 1>thoughtful has said you should check this out. Kind of

0:53:54.719 --> 0:53:58.880
<v Speaker 1>mimics I don't know, friendships or iconoclasts, like the idea

0:53:58.920 --> 0:53:59.479
<v Speaker 1>of someone who.

0:53:59.400 --> 0:54:01.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and there's a as well, Yeah, I just kind

0:54:01.120 --> 0:54:02.719
<v Speaker 3>of know you're going to get it's going to be

0:54:02.800 --> 0:54:05.600
<v Speaker 3>sort of mildly nerdy, but not too much so. And

0:54:06.040 --> 0:54:07.320
<v Speaker 3>that's what you get when you go there. And I

0:54:07.360 --> 0:54:10.279
<v Speaker 3>think it's Yeah, So when people get nostalgic for the web,

0:54:10.360 --> 0:54:13.160
<v Speaker 3>I think it's that kind of discovery that they're thinking about.

0:54:13.280 --> 0:54:15.120
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and it's it is the thing that I think

0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:17.439
<v Speaker 1>a lot of listeners miss as well. It's like, we're

0:54:17.440 --> 0:54:20.520
<v Speaker 1>not we don't just hate arbitrarily, We're not just angry.

0:54:20.520 --> 0:54:23.560
<v Speaker 1>It's just there's something taken away. Like we mentioned Facebook,

0:54:23.680 --> 0:54:25.640
<v Speaker 1>the quality. He also used to be Google. He used

0:54:25.640 --> 0:54:27.120
<v Speaker 1>to just be able to dick around on Google and

0:54:27.160 --> 0:54:30.279
<v Speaker 1>find some bizarre stuff. I remember back in college. I

0:54:30.360 --> 0:54:33.759
<v Speaker 1>lost this two thousand and six, I want to say.

0:54:33.840 --> 0:54:37.400
<v Speaker 1>I was in my Dustin Panganis college room mate. We

0:54:37.560 --> 0:54:40.120
<v Speaker 1>randomly typed in you know, you're right by Nirvana into

0:54:40.120 --> 0:54:42.400
<v Speaker 1>YouTube and there was just this I think it's like,

0:54:42.520 --> 0:54:44.319
<v Speaker 1>I don't even remember it had view. It was this

0:54:44.440 --> 0:54:48.600
<v Speaker 1>grainy video of this like young Asian guy seeing this

0:54:48.760 --> 0:54:51.359
<v Speaker 1>like really kind of like slightly out of chewn version

0:54:51.400 --> 0:54:53.560
<v Speaker 1>of somebody. It was so interesting in grim like he

0:54:53.640 --> 0:54:56.400
<v Speaker 1>seemed very sad. I can never find it again. But

0:54:56.440 --> 0:54:58.160
<v Speaker 1>that was the kind of internet I kind of missed,

0:54:58.200 --> 0:55:01.520
<v Speaker 1>like just these arbitrary moments. So you find these weird things.

0:55:01.760 --> 0:55:03.640
<v Speaker 3>You can't find that clip on YouTube, But would you

0:55:03.680 --> 0:55:05.720
<v Speaker 3>be interested in two hours of Joe Rogan?

0:55:06.280 --> 0:55:09.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, five hours because it will help.

0:55:08.880 --> 0:55:11.400
<v Speaker 3>You find that. Yeah, and then if you watch that,

0:55:11.440 --> 0:55:14.800
<v Speaker 3>then maybe Charlie Kirk and then you're.

0:55:14.600 --> 0:55:17.200
<v Speaker 1>In the well you've learned three times of racism. You

0:55:17.239 --> 0:55:23.399
<v Speaker 1>get legs from how you are on computer, on website.

0:55:23.560 --> 0:55:25.560
<v Speaker 1>I won't do that for too long. That's why the

0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:28.400
<v Speaker 1>episodes are so long. It's ten minutes per question. So

0:55:29.040 --> 0:55:30.040
<v Speaker 1>what are you enjoying? Like?

0:55:30.080 --> 0:55:30.160
<v Speaker 3>What?

0:55:30.640 --> 0:55:30.839
<v Speaker 1>Oh?

0:55:30.880 --> 0:55:34.120
<v Speaker 2>Man? I feel like there are a few content creators

0:55:34.160 --> 0:55:39.799
<v Speaker 2>that I really like and really tune into. There's a

0:55:40.000 --> 0:55:43.080
<v Speaker 2>woman who makes like sort of YouTube video essays that

0:55:43.160 --> 0:55:45.880
<v Speaker 2>are very well researched. Her name is Mina Le and

0:55:45.920 --> 0:55:50.080
<v Speaker 2>she does sort of like fashion and consumerism and culture

0:55:50.200 --> 0:55:52.560
<v Speaker 2>and art and stuff. And I think she is really

0:55:52.600 --> 0:55:57.560
<v Speaker 2>fun and just like, clearly I saw this thing the

0:55:57.640 --> 0:55:59.839
<v Speaker 2>other day that someone was like, if you can't write

0:55:59.840 --> 0:56:02.960
<v Speaker 2>a normal essay, you should not try to do video essays,

0:56:03.520 --> 0:56:05.399
<v Speaker 2>and she can do It's clear she can do both,

0:56:05.440 --> 0:56:07.840
<v Speaker 2>and I'm like, thank you so much, you know what

0:56:07.920 --> 0:56:12.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean. So I really like her. There's another person

0:56:12.080 --> 0:56:16.080
<v Speaker 2>that I follow on TikTok and other platforms named Ryan Finn,

0:56:16.280 --> 0:56:19.040
<v Speaker 2>and she is also really great, also kind of writes

0:56:19.080 --> 0:56:22.600
<v Speaker 2>about like kind of like a She talks about fashion

0:56:22.800 --> 0:56:27.920
<v Speaker 2>and clothing and culture in a really like heady kind

0:56:27.960 --> 0:56:31.640
<v Speaker 2>of It's the type of content that people who don't

0:56:31.680 --> 0:56:33.400
<v Speaker 2>read would see it and be like, it's really not

0:56:33.480 --> 0:56:35.720
<v Speaker 2>that deep, but it is, you know, and I appreciate

0:56:35.760 --> 0:56:38.839
<v Speaker 2>that someone takes things seriously like that. There are also

0:56:38.920 --> 0:56:42.200
<v Speaker 2>like corners of the Internet, even on platforms like TikTok

0:56:42.280 --> 0:56:47.200
<v Speaker 2>or Instagram, that I just like find the nerds and

0:56:47.480 --> 0:56:50.600
<v Speaker 2>they still are just plugging away and doing whatever they want,

0:56:50.680 --> 0:56:53.359
<v Speaker 2>and their posts get like fifty views and they're fine

0:56:53.400 --> 0:56:55.520
<v Speaker 2>with it, and like that's I think where it's special

0:56:55.600 --> 0:56:58.360
<v Speaker 2>where I don't like it when I follow a creator

0:56:58.360 --> 0:57:00.840
<v Speaker 2>and suddenly everything is sponkn or I follow a creator

0:57:00.880 --> 0:57:03.960
<v Speaker 2>and clearly they're just sort of like jumping on trends.

0:57:05.040 --> 0:57:08.080
<v Speaker 2>I also like websites where there's still like new content

0:57:08.120 --> 0:57:11.920
<v Speaker 2>being posted, but you can clearly find the markings of

0:57:11.960 --> 0:57:14.240
<v Speaker 2>like two thousand and six, Like I'm a big knitter

0:57:14.400 --> 0:57:19.240
<v Speaker 2>and ravelry is the was the place to find knitting

0:57:19.320 --> 0:57:22.360
<v Speaker 2>patterns in like the early to mid two thousands, and

0:57:22.920 --> 0:57:26.400
<v Speaker 2>sometimes I'll find photos clearly from that era and it's

0:57:26.440 --> 0:57:28.160
<v Speaker 2>like really delightful, you know what I mean, Like they

0:57:28.160 --> 0:57:30.240
<v Speaker 2>were posting to a different Internet. They were thinking of

0:57:30.600 --> 0:57:32.280
<v Speaker 2>the web as a completely different.

0:57:32.000 --> 0:57:34.560
<v Speaker 1>Space before the algorithms.

0:57:34.080 --> 0:57:36.640
<v Speaker 2>I imagine, before the algorithms. And ravelry also like it

0:57:36.680 --> 0:57:38.880
<v Speaker 2>has some algorithmic stuff, but like a lot of it

0:57:38.920 --> 0:57:42.200
<v Speaker 2>is sort of pure. I think they're like forums, you

0:57:42.240 --> 0:57:43.480
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean, people post on.

0:57:43.600 --> 0:57:46.440
<v Speaker 1>But this is why one of my favorites is baseball perspectives.

0:57:46.560 --> 0:57:48.120
<v Speaker 1>I know you're a Dodger fan.

0:57:48.080 --> 0:57:51.680
<v Speaker 2>Right, Dodgers they suck right now, everyone's really everyone.

0:57:52.160 --> 0:57:54.880
<v Speaker 1>That's a dead But baseball perspectus I think has looked

0:57:54.920 --> 0:57:57.520
<v Speaker 1>the same way since it was made, and it's just

0:57:57.560 --> 0:58:00.200
<v Speaker 1>like really specific, nutty stuff. But I think you can

0:58:00.240 --> 0:58:02.160
<v Speaker 1>even see it in sports. You've got people like Chad

0:58:02.200 --> 0:58:04.560
<v Speaker 1>Mariama over at Dodgers Digest. I think it is you've

0:58:04.560 --> 0:58:06.720
<v Speaker 1>got these like really specific and you know that they're

0:58:06.720 --> 0:58:09.959
<v Speaker 1>probably doing okay, but they're not like millions of views

0:58:10.000 --> 0:58:12.000
<v Speaker 1>every month or anything. But you've got this kind of

0:58:12.160 --> 0:58:16.760
<v Speaker 1>niche strength and my hopium I snort aggressively, is that

0:58:16.880 --> 0:58:19.280
<v Speaker 1>these will never stop being made because they're still being

0:58:19.280 --> 0:58:21.840
<v Speaker 1>made now. There's never been a more bleak time to

0:58:21.920 --> 0:58:24.440
<v Speaker 1>make niche specific content and keep making it. But people

0:58:24.520 --> 0:58:27.080
<v Speaker 1>keep doing it. I mean Carl Brown from Internet at Bugs,

0:58:27.400 --> 0:58:30.720
<v Speaker 1>he like does the most straightforward thing and just talks

0:58:30.840 --> 0:58:33.680
<v Speaker 1>and it's great and he has a growing audience. But

0:58:33.720 --> 0:58:36.760
<v Speaker 1>you can he does very specific developer Folcus stuff with

0:58:36.800 --> 0:58:40.720
<v Speaker 1>a very straightforward explanation, lovely fella and it's nice seeing

0:58:40.760 --> 0:58:42.479
<v Speaker 1>those and it's what gives me a bit of hope

0:58:42.520 --> 0:58:44.920
<v Speaker 1>because if those people, if you never find any of

0:58:44.960 --> 0:58:48.360
<v Speaker 1>that stuff anymore, if everything is just mainstream, I think

0:58:48.400 --> 0:58:51.160
<v Speaker 1>that's terrifying. But even look at gamers Nexus, Big Hot,

0:58:51.320 --> 0:58:53.680
<v Speaker 1>Steve Burke over the Legend Heart run Box as well,

0:58:53.720 --> 0:58:56.720
<v Speaker 1>you've got millions of subscribers. There is there is hunger

0:58:56.760 --> 0:58:57.440
<v Speaker 1>for this stuff.

0:58:57.560 --> 0:59:01.720
<v Speaker 3>There's hunger for like passionate people story turning out. Even

0:59:01.800 --> 0:59:04.560
<v Speaker 3>I mean, I was always a big fan of British

0:59:04.560 --> 0:59:06.880
<v Speaker 3>guy Tom Scott. I feel like you might have and

0:59:07.320 --> 0:59:09.360
<v Speaker 3>he's done that for years and years, made YouTube video

0:59:09.400 --> 0:59:11.720
<v Speaker 3>and he did he did like twenty minutes on the

0:59:11.720 --> 0:59:14.760
<v Speaker 3>design of the British plug for like an outlet and

0:59:14.800 --> 0:59:17.280
<v Speaker 3>how it's got this video and it makes the case

0:59:17.320 --> 0:59:19.160
<v Speaker 3>that is, you know, one of the finest things that

0:59:19.200 --> 0:59:22.200
<v Speaker 3>Britain's ever come with, because you know, you can't electrocute

0:59:22.200 --> 0:59:23.960
<v Speaker 3>yourself by putting it in all sort of stuff. And

0:59:24.280 --> 0:59:26.640
<v Speaker 3>I remember what you're thinking. I've just watched fifteen minutes

0:59:26.640 --> 0:59:29.280
<v Speaker 3>about the history of the plug and I but he was.

0:59:29.400 --> 0:59:32.800
<v Speaker 3>He's just such a sort of arresting, interesting guy. Bona

0:59:32.800 --> 0:59:36.040
<v Speaker 3>fide nerd, but a great presenter. One of the things

0:59:36.040 --> 0:59:39.480
<v Speaker 3>I take from the sort of substack era, if you like,

0:59:39.720 --> 0:59:42.240
<v Speaker 3>is like I imagine, and I'm not going to make

0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:44.800
<v Speaker 3>you get into numbs, but imagine the Verge with its

0:59:44.880 --> 0:59:46.760
<v Speaker 3>paywalk now has a lot of people saying, oh, why

0:59:46.760 --> 0:59:49.400
<v Speaker 3>are you pay warning? And I find it really interesting

0:59:49.400 --> 0:59:53.280
<v Speaker 3>that when big publications put up a paywall, everyone gets

0:59:53.320 --> 0:59:54.960
<v Speaker 3>a little bit mad, right they say that, you know,

0:59:55.000 --> 0:59:56.960
<v Speaker 3>and like, whenever I post a link the Bloomberg's was like, oh,

0:59:56.960 --> 1:00:00.960
<v Speaker 3>it's pay And yet when one person launches a substack

1:00:01.000 --> 1:00:02.640
<v Speaker 3>and says, right, this is ten bucks a month, Oh

1:00:02.680 --> 1:00:04.560
<v Speaker 3>my god, they kind of go great, good for you,

1:00:04.720 --> 1:00:06.760
<v Speaker 3>definitely get behind you. And I think what that's showing

1:00:06.800 --> 1:00:09.240
<v Speaker 3>us is one is a kind of you know, middle

1:00:09.280 --> 1:00:12.680
<v Speaker 3>finger to the mainstream media. Fine, But then the second

1:00:12.720 --> 1:00:14.920
<v Speaker 3>thing maybe is that I think people have respect for

1:00:16.320 --> 1:00:21.040
<v Speaker 3>depth and niche and real Well, yeah, because I think

1:00:21.080 --> 1:00:23.160
<v Speaker 3>I think they want to sort of they love the

1:00:23.200 --> 1:00:25.800
<v Speaker 3>idea that someone gives up and gives up, you know,

1:00:26.120 --> 1:00:28.560
<v Speaker 3>a steady thing goes into a substat I mean, I

1:00:28.600 --> 1:00:30.720
<v Speaker 3>think of Paul Krugman, who left The New York Times.

1:00:31.080 --> 1:00:35.600
<v Speaker 3>I remember thinking, I remember thinking, Okay, Paul, you're being

1:00:35.600 --> 1:00:37.800
<v Speaker 3>a cranky old man just because the editors don't want

1:00:37.800 --> 1:00:40.320
<v Speaker 3>you to do that. But now his substack is brilliant.

1:00:40.520 --> 1:00:41.960
<v Speaker 3>He goes to such length.

1:00:43.120 --> 1:00:44.280
<v Speaker 1>Please get him in touch with me.

1:00:44.960 --> 1:00:47.520
<v Speaker 3>But it's great, and I think I'm much more inclined

1:00:47.840 --> 1:00:50.200
<v Speaker 3>to chuck you know, when when when The New Times

1:00:50.200 --> 1:00:52.720
<v Speaker 3>wants to upgrade my subscription, I'd rather send that to

1:00:52.840 --> 1:00:55.480
<v Speaker 3>Paul on his own. Get the entirety of this, because.

1:00:55.280 --> 1:00:58.400
<v Speaker 1>You're incentivizing this individual voice and you know, the person

1:00:58.640 --> 1:00:59.600
<v Speaker 1>kind of parasocially.

1:00:59.760 --> 1:01:01.840
<v Speaker 3>And the way that I think bigger publications kind of

1:01:01.880 --> 1:01:04.400
<v Speaker 3>lean intoight is to have these sort of nations version

1:01:04.800 --> 1:01:05.600
<v Speaker 3>following right.

1:01:05.520 --> 1:01:07.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, oh yeah, everyone should follow me on the Verge

1:01:08.120 --> 1:01:09.920
<v Speaker 2>so you can follow me and all the topics I

1:01:09.960 --> 1:01:12.000
<v Speaker 2>write about. But I'm glad you said that, Dave, because

1:01:12.040 --> 1:01:16.400
<v Speaker 2>I think that is it shows a thing that mass media,

1:01:16.520 --> 1:01:18.640
<v Speaker 2>big media companies have failed to do, which is explain

1:01:18.680 --> 1:01:21.280
<v Speaker 2>what we're actually doing day to day. And I that's

1:01:21.320 --> 1:01:24.080
<v Speaker 2>why I am active on TikTok, you know what I mean.

1:01:24.120 --> 1:01:26.880
<v Speaker 2>I talk to people who will never probably read my

1:01:27.000 --> 1:01:30.760
<v Speaker 2>story and probably will never subscribe to the Verge. Truthfully,

1:01:30.880 --> 1:01:32.920
<v Speaker 2>some do, thank you so much, but a lot of

1:01:32.960 --> 1:01:35.000
<v Speaker 2>them will just watch my videos and that is a

1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:37.240
<v Speaker 2>way for me to explain to them what it takes

1:01:37.240 --> 1:01:38.920
<v Speaker 2>for me to write a story. This is how I

1:01:38.960 --> 1:01:40.800
<v Speaker 2>talk to people. This is like I think people don't

1:01:40.840 --> 1:01:43.720
<v Speaker 2>realize that, like when I'm writing stories, I'm actually sometimes

1:01:43.760 --> 1:01:45.720
<v Speaker 2>going in person to interview the person, you know what

1:01:45.760 --> 1:01:48.680
<v Speaker 2>I mean. Like it's and I don't blame them really

1:01:48.720 --> 1:01:51.919
<v Speaker 2>for not knowing, because media has done a really bad

1:01:52.000 --> 1:01:56.560
<v Speaker 2>job of explaining it historically. And I hope that you know,

1:01:56.600 --> 1:01:59.440
<v Speaker 2>folks who read my work know that, Like I'm I'm

1:01:59.480 --> 1:02:01.680
<v Speaker 2>a I'm one person and I write these stories and

1:02:01.720 --> 1:02:05.800
<v Speaker 2>obviously there's copy editors and editors and photo editors and

1:02:06.440 --> 1:02:09.440
<v Speaker 2>you know like dev folks who make my stories come

1:02:09.480 --> 1:02:11.600
<v Speaker 2>to life, but like we are just people making shit

1:02:11.680 --> 1:02:13.720
<v Speaker 2>that we like and we think is worth your time.

1:02:14.200 --> 1:02:18.160
<v Speaker 2>And every media company should be showing that off you.

1:02:18.200 --> 1:02:20.479
<v Speaker 1>Made a really you made a post quite like maybe

1:02:20.520 --> 1:02:22.479
<v Speaker 1>it was last year forgive me where it was saying

1:02:22.480 --> 1:02:25.840
<v Speaker 1>we're kind of journalists are seeding ground to content creators

1:02:25.880 --> 1:02:28.120
<v Speaker 1>who are reusing their stuff. And I think it comes

1:02:28.120 --> 1:02:30.880
<v Speaker 1>down to a failure of not saying anything specifically about

1:02:30.880 --> 1:02:33.360
<v Speaker 1>any given out there. But I failed to failure to

1:02:33.400 --> 1:02:36.520
<v Speaker 1>realize that people want people. They want to read people.

1:02:36.600 --> 1:02:39.960
<v Speaker 1>They and I think that large broadsheets tend to fail. Actually,

1:02:40.040 --> 1:02:42.720
<v Speaker 1>I will give big props to the ft for doing this,

1:02:42.800 --> 1:02:45.440
<v Speaker 1>that they let their freak flags fly, Bryce Elder the

1:02:45.520 --> 1:02:49.880
<v Speaker 1>Legend and like Alphaville as well, because people want to

1:02:49.920 --> 1:02:53.320
<v Speaker 1>read people. And I think that what should be table

1:02:53.320 --> 1:02:56.560
<v Speaker 1>stakes now is that every outlet should get everyone a

1:02:56.560 --> 1:02:59.120
<v Speaker 1>good microphone, get everyone a good camera media, train them

1:03:00.080 --> 1:03:02.760
<v Speaker 1>up a bit so that they can sound good and

1:03:02.840 --> 1:03:05.200
<v Speaker 1>represent the work of the publication in a personal way

1:03:05.200 --> 1:03:08.120
<v Speaker 1>that makes people more willing to understand. There's a paywall,

1:03:08.440 --> 1:03:11.480
<v Speaker 1>which is a reasonable thing, whether however you feel about

1:03:11.480 --> 1:03:13.800
<v Speaker 1>the Verge or any other outlet. Yeah, money, the things

1:03:13.800 --> 1:03:16.600
<v Speaker 1>cost money to do. Money money so expensive.

1:03:16.760 --> 1:03:19.800
<v Speaker 2>It's really fucking expensive to write six thousand word features.

1:03:19.840 --> 1:03:23.120
<v Speaker 2>That's like months of my time, many many people's you know,

1:03:23.200 --> 1:03:27.160
<v Speaker 2>work and resources. And I think also, like if we

1:03:27.320 --> 1:03:29.680
<v Speaker 2>don't fill that, and I know a lot of people

1:03:29.720 --> 1:03:31.800
<v Speaker 2>disagreed with me when I said, like we're seeding ground,

1:03:31.840 --> 1:03:34.800
<v Speaker 2>and people didn't like it for a lot of valid reasons.

1:03:34.840 --> 1:03:38.720
<v Speaker 2>But if we are not there, something will fill the space.

1:03:39.000 --> 1:03:42.640
<v Speaker 2>I was basically just sick of seeing my stories super

1:03:42.840 --> 1:03:44.200
<v Speaker 2>you know, behind someone's head.

1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:46.240
<v Speaker 1>And you made this point very clearly. It's what you said,

1:03:46.240 --> 1:03:48.440
<v Speaker 1>like if someone taking my stuff.

1:03:48.000 --> 1:03:50.560
<v Speaker 2>Someone taking my stuff, Yeah, exactly, it's someone taking my stuff.

1:03:50.560 --> 1:03:54.480
<v Speaker 2>It's they're misrepresenting it, getting basic facts wrong. And like

1:03:54.600 --> 1:03:56.400
<v Speaker 2>I have thirty minutes in my day, I will just

1:03:56.440 --> 1:03:58.040
<v Speaker 2>make the fucking video, you know what I mean? Like,

1:03:58.040 --> 1:03:58.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't care.

1:03:58.640 --> 1:04:00.400
<v Speaker 1>They should get it. There should be the space for

1:04:00.720 --> 1:04:03.160
<v Speaker 1>they should have, Like I whole radio gives me a

1:04:03.160 --> 1:04:05.520
<v Speaker 1>studio at least, because it's like, oh, imagine what want

1:04:05.520 --> 1:04:07.520
<v Speaker 1>to do it in studio? Thing? What make for good content?

1:04:07.800 --> 1:04:09.760
<v Speaker 1>It's just when you have resources, share them. Are you

1:04:09.760 --> 1:04:10.400
<v Speaker 1>going to say something.

1:04:10.480 --> 1:04:13.240
<v Speaker 3>Well, I think part of all of this as well

1:04:13.600 --> 1:04:18.080
<v Speaker 3>is showing the process is the most It travels almost

1:04:18.080 --> 1:04:21.240
<v Speaker 3>more than the story, right, and it breathes a ton

1:04:21.280 --> 1:04:23.400
<v Speaker 3>of trust. I mean, I'm always surprised you can be,

1:04:23.960 --> 1:04:26.360
<v Speaker 3>you know, in in rooms of people who are, you know,

1:04:26.400 --> 1:04:29.040
<v Speaker 3>incredibly success and they're still they'll ask the most like

1:04:29.160 --> 1:04:31.919
<v Speaker 3>rudimentary questions about the journalistic process, like oh, who tells

1:04:31.960 --> 1:04:33.920
<v Speaker 3>you what to write? And I'm like, God, my job

1:04:33.960 --> 1:04:35.480
<v Speaker 3>would be much easier if someone did tell me what

1:04:35.520 --> 1:04:37.920
<v Speaker 3>to write. It being the other way around, things like

1:04:37.960 --> 1:04:39.760
<v Speaker 3>do you people let people read things? I think it's

1:04:39.800 --> 1:04:42.040
<v Speaker 3>going into the process is really really useful. And I

1:04:42.040 --> 1:04:44.760
<v Speaker 3>always there was I was a dinner thing once and

1:04:44.800 --> 1:04:47.000
<v Speaker 3>this one guy made this point I thought, was I've

1:04:47.000 --> 1:04:49.640
<v Speaker 3>always thought of when they're talking about this is if

1:04:49.680 --> 1:04:52.680
<v Speaker 3>you said to somebody, when was journalism in America the

1:04:52.680 --> 1:04:55.240
<v Speaker 3>most trusted? Right they can my assumption most people would

1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:58.120
<v Speaker 3>say water Gate, Ye, the thing? And he said no,

1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:01.080
<v Speaker 3>it wasn't Watergate that made and trusted. It was a

1:05:01.200 --> 1:05:04.520
<v Speaker 3>very good film about Watergate that made journalism and trusted,

1:05:04.520 --> 1:05:07.880
<v Speaker 3>because all that film was was just them trying to

1:05:07.880 --> 1:05:10.240
<v Speaker 3>get this stuff in the paper and them going through

1:05:10.320 --> 1:05:13.080
<v Speaker 3>hell to make it happen. And if you want a

1:05:13.120 --> 1:05:17.000
<v Speaker 3>more modern example, that the book she said by the

1:05:17.000 --> 1:05:21.200
<v Speaker 3>New York Times reporters that did the Jeffrey Epstein. Sorry, no,

1:05:22.080 --> 1:05:28.400
<v Speaker 3>Harvey Weinstein, I get, but their book they knew what

1:05:28.440 --> 1:05:31.720
<v Speaker 3>Harvey Weinstein had done within about ten pages of the

1:05:31.720 --> 1:05:33.800
<v Speaker 3>first chapter, right it was getting the rest of the

1:05:33.840 --> 1:05:35.960
<v Speaker 3>book was getting in the newspaper. And I just think

1:05:36.040 --> 1:05:39.440
<v Speaker 3>that is the more of that process that journalists share

1:05:40.120 --> 1:05:43.320
<v Speaker 3>off the cuff constantly is super powerful. That's what Twitter

1:05:43.400 --> 1:05:45.200
<v Speaker 3>used to be very good. There's a big shift in

1:05:45.280 --> 1:05:48.080
<v Speaker 3>newsrooms among bosses that went hold on a second, the

1:05:48.120 --> 1:05:51.040
<v Speaker 3>official account is getting no engagement, but when this random

1:05:51.240 --> 1:05:54.320
<v Speaker 3>person on one of our UK desks starts tweeting about it,

1:05:54.400 --> 1:05:56.400
<v Speaker 3>that gets loads of pickup. Why is that? It's because

1:05:56.400 --> 1:05:59.840
<v Speaker 3>people respect hearing the process more than the end result

1:06:00.320 --> 1:06:00.760
<v Speaker 3>the events.

1:06:00.960 --> 1:06:02.720
<v Speaker 1>They want to also know. And I know that this

1:06:02.840 --> 1:06:06.480
<v Speaker 1>is difficult for different Like your opinion stuff is fucking fantastic.

1:06:06.480 --> 1:06:08.520
<v Speaker 1>By the way, at Bloomberg, It's really like Bloomberg has

1:06:08.560 --> 1:06:10.640
<v Speaker 1>actually been very impressive in how they've grown out the

1:06:10.680 --> 1:06:14.320
<v Speaker 1>opinion stuff. So this is not a detraction of that I,

1:06:14.400 --> 1:06:16.640
<v Speaker 1>at least in my writing, have found that people really

1:06:17.320 --> 1:06:19.600
<v Speaker 1>like to know why you care. And I think that

1:06:19.800 --> 1:06:22.640
<v Speaker 1>explaining that even on here talking about your work, it's

1:06:22.680 --> 1:06:25.640
<v Speaker 1>like hearing it just a little bit about the things

1:06:25.680 --> 1:06:28.280
<v Speaker 1>that draw you into the story. I think it's so powerful.

1:06:28.320 --> 1:06:31.080
<v Speaker 1>It's also people love it. I mean after c yes,

1:06:31.160 --> 1:06:34.400
<v Speaker 1>I know, I see like Victorious Song and Das Sheerlyn Lowe,

1:06:34.440 --> 1:06:36.440
<v Speaker 1>both of them get the loveliest comments and people, I

1:06:36.480 --> 1:06:38.360
<v Speaker 1>just found your work for the show. It's lovely. And

1:06:38.400 --> 1:06:41.720
<v Speaker 1>it's also I feel like most readers like to know

1:06:41.880 --> 1:06:44.560
<v Speaker 1>and appreciate. It's not like most people are like, oh,

1:06:44.600 --> 1:06:47.040
<v Speaker 1>these fucking idiots just ti when they actually know what

1:06:47.120 --> 1:06:49.480
<v Speaker 1>goes into it. I feel that there's more goodness in

1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:52.040
<v Speaker 1>people around this than they know. And now you've made

1:06:52.120 --> 1:06:54.520
<v Speaker 1>that comment about watergain and be thinking about it all

1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:55.080
<v Speaker 1>fucking days.

1:06:55.960 --> 1:06:57.000
<v Speaker 3>It's such a good point.

1:06:57.880 --> 1:06:59.640
<v Speaker 1>So I'm going to wrap it there. It's been so

1:06:59.720 --> 1:07:01.040
<v Speaker 1>one of for having you both me and what can

1:07:01.120 --> 1:07:01.680
<v Speaker 1>people find you?

1:07:02.440 --> 1:07:06.440
<v Speaker 2>I'm on Blue Sky, TikTok, Instagram, and the Verge dot com,

1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:08.280
<v Speaker 2>where again you can follow me, Dave.

1:07:08.760 --> 1:07:11.120
<v Speaker 3>I'm one of all those places except these dot com

1:07:10.920 --> 1:07:14.600
<v Speaker 3>I'm Blueberg dot com slash Opinion, but Insta.

1:07:15.400 --> 1:07:18.000
<v Speaker 1>And I must recommend both of their work. Both of

1:07:18.040 --> 1:07:20.840
<v Speaker 1>you are to my favorite right, no, like, I'm actually

1:07:20.880 --> 1:07:23.240
<v Speaker 1>so excited I got this one of my favorite episodes recorded.

1:07:23.280 --> 1:07:25.600
<v Speaker 1>I'm just gonna be honest. I am ed Zeitron. You

1:07:25.600 --> 1:07:27.640
<v Speaker 1>can find me on the podcast The Better Offline. You

1:07:27.720 --> 1:07:31.080
<v Speaker 1>go Better offline dot com, click newsletter, click all this stuff,

1:07:31.760 --> 1:07:34.480
<v Speaker 1>get the challenge coin if you want, but really, just

1:07:34.520 --> 1:07:36.320
<v Speaker 1>I'm so grateful to have all of you, love you all,

1:07:36.480 --> 1:07:38.000
<v Speaker 1>Thank you for listening, and then you can hear it

1:07:38.040 --> 1:07:39.920
<v Speaker 1>say thank you for listening again. I'm going to get

1:07:39.960 --> 1:07:42.520
<v Speaker 1>an email. I'm going to ignore it. I'll respond thank

1:07:42.520 --> 1:07:52.720
<v Speaker 1>you for listening, but thank you for listening. Thank you

1:07:52.720 --> 1:07:55.440
<v Speaker 1>for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of

1:07:55.480 --> 1:07:58.440
<v Speaker 1>the Better Offline theme song is Metasowski. You can check

1:07:58.440 --> 1:08:01.360
<v Speaker 1>out more of his music and audio project at Mattasowski

1:08:01.440 --> 1:08:04.960
<v Speaker 1>dot com m A T T O S O W

1:08:05.280 --> 1:08:08.600
<v Speaker 1>s ki dot com. You can email me at easy

1:08:08.680 --> 1:08:11.320
<v Speaker 1>at Better offline dot com, or visit Better Offline dot

1:08:11.320 --> 1:08:13.960
<v Speaker 1>com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter.

1:08:14.360 --> 1:08:16.840
<v Speaker 1>I also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's

1:08:16.880 --> 1:08:19.320
<v Speaker 1>youreaed dot at to visit the discord and go to

1:08:19.400 --> 1:08:22.800
<v Speaker 1>our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank

1:08:22.800 --> 1:08:23.920
<v Speaker 1>you so much for listening.

1:08:24.760 --> 1:08:27.200
<v Speaker 2>Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

1:08:27.400 --> 1:08:30.240
<v Speaker 1>For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1:08:30.280 --> 1:08:33.639
<v Speaker 1>Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1:08:33.680 --> 1:08:36.400
<v Speaker 1>Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.