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Speaker 1: Also media, locally hated, globally loathed, chosen by God and

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Speaker 1: perfected by science. I'm ed Zeitron and this is Better

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Speaker 1: Offline Today. I'm joined by an incredible duo. We've got

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Speaker 1: Mia Sarto of The Verge and Dave Lee of Bloomberg.

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Speaker 1: Thank you both for joining me in the studio.

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Speaker 2: Happy to be here.

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Speaker 1: So before we go any further, of course, please subscribe

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Speaker 1: to the News let the premium one as well. Please

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Speaker 1: help me, and for a limited time you can buy

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Speaker 1: a Better Offline challenge coin. A bunch of other staff

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Speaker 1: links in the episode notes. But you two, I'm so

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Speaker 1: excited to have you here because you were two of

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Speaker 1: my favorite opinion columnists as well, but also a feature

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Speaker 1: like you. I've known your work for many years, so

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Speaker 1: I'm very very excited to have you here. Mia, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to start with a simple question, though, what is

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Speaker 1: a labo bou. You've shown me this creature, this you

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Speaker 1: are finding like little evil thing, and everyone wants one,

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Speaker 1: and I don't done this. Every time I try and

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Speaker 1: look it up and it makes me upset.

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Speaker 2: This could be the first time a la boobo has

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Speaker 2: stepped foot in the iHeartRadio offices.

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Speaker 1: I think we record in the same room as.

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Speaker 2: Right, something shifted. Oh okay, so Labooboo probably has been

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Speaker 2: in the last culture recent area.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I would assume.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. La Boo Boos are little plush dolls. They have

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Speaker 2: kind of like a hard plastic human like mean face,

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Speaker 2: but then are wearing like a bunny suit. They come

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Speaker 2: in all different colors, and I think the most important

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Speaker 2: thing to know about Laboo Boos is it is just gambling.

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Speaker 2: It's just gambling for kids and kind of adults now elaborate.

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Speaker 2: So they come in blind boxes, which is like they

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Speaker 2: are all in like a little plaster or a paper cartan,

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Speaker 2: and you have like a one in six chance of

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Speaker 2: getting a certain you know these colors, and then there's

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Speaker 2: one rare one that's like a one in seventy two chance,

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Speaker 2: and it says it right on the box like it

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Speaker 2: is just straightforward betting.

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Speaker 3: Who makes me.

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Speaker 2: They are sold by this company called PopMart, and they're

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Speaker 2: based on like a cartoon I think, like a broader

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Speaker 2: umbrella called The Monsters. So Labooboo is one character in

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Speaker 2: The Monsters.

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Speaker 1: And the others did not take off. I'm not the.

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Speaker 2: Same way, but I think there are some fans for

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Speaker 2: the other characters, the labooo or no, it's real, it's

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Speaker 2: real because of the seventy two no no, obviously not.

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Speaker 1: So is there a secondary la boo boo market.

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Speaker 2: Well, this is where it gets interesting, and this is

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Speaker 2: why I think leabuo boos are funnier and kind of

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Speaker 2: stupider than they appear on the surface, because from my

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Speaker 2: observations and from talking to friends who are like good

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Speaker 2: at flipping things, there is no really no resale value

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Speaker 2: for opened laboo boos. So if I wanted to sell

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Speaker 2: this pink laboo boo, it would go for maybe like

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Speaker 2: forty bucks fifty bucks, and they retail for like twenty

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Speaker 2: seven ninety nine, not including shipping and tax, and.

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Speaker 1: Not a huge margin. No, you can even sell exactly.

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Speaker 2: The ones that do go for some money are the

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Speaker 2: rare ones, which is like you know, their special colors

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Speaker 2: and unopened boxes, because again it's about gambling. It is

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Speaker 2: about the chance that you might have a rare one.

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Speaker 2: They're also out on Popmart's app, which we can talk about, like,

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Speaker 2: I think it is like the funniest thing ever to

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Speaker 2: do to parents of young children and to teens.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I feel like this was my life of

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Speaker 3: Pokemon cards.

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Speaker 2: It's exactly the same.

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Speaker 3: Game trumps right right.

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Speaker 2: And there is some like off like downstream La Booo

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Speaker 2: culture where people will dress in this essay. I will,

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Speaker 2: but people will like dress up their boo boos. They'll

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Speaker 2: like get accessories. There's a crazy kind of like off

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Speaker 2: brand black market for like La Boo boo related things

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Speaker 2: like lafu fooss are the fake laboo boos. I also

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Speaker 2: own a La fu Fu that I bought at the

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Speaker 2: Statue of Liberty as God intended. But yeah, the labubos

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Speaker 2: are interesting because it's not about the doll. It's about

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Speaker 2: how you acquire it, and it's about the odds, the

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Speaker 2: odds that you're taking.

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Speaker 3: Really, there's nothing more to it. Yeah, I feel like

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Speaker 3: two years ago this would have got This would have

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Speaker 3: had like an NFT element to it, right.

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Speaker 2: I don't say that, don't speak that into.

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Speaker 3: Exibits, but I think it's wholesome that it's just it's

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Speaker 3: just the thing, yeah, nothing else.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just like collector culture.

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Speaker 1: It's also like very nihilistic.

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Speaker 2: It's it's pretty nihilistic. There's no ip related to it

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Speaker 2: that people are familiar with. There's no film like La

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Speaker 2: Boo Boo movie that people are obsessed with, like you know,

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Speaker 2: Paw Patrol, like kids see.

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Speaker 1: Pop want stuff, and like ten years ago this would

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Speaker 1: have already remember with Angry Birds. Yeah, Grovio is like

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Speaker 1: we're gonna do a TV show, We're gonna do a.

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Speaker 2: Movie, or like Grumpy Cat. I just wrote about grumpy cats,

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Speaker 2: so there's a grumpy there's a whole aspect.

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Speaker 3: But this will come.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's kind of what I'm waiting for. Also, it

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Speaker 1: does seem there is a Laboo Boo fan connect collection

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Speaker 1: on Magic Eden. It's zero point zero four Soul. If

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Speaker 1: you buy one of these, they should put you on

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Speaker 1: a list. It's fascinating because I've done everything I can

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Speaker 1: to avoid this, and I've mostly seen like cities by

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Speaker 1: a Diana Classic Instagram account. I've seen Leboobuo pop up

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Speaker 1: on there and being like no one will save you.

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Speaker 1: It's like that kind of brain rot style thing where

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Speaker 1: it's like a cute s you've always been like, no

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Speaker 1: one will save you, the world will collapse. It's just

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Speaker 1: La Boobos, Yes, but it is. I thought that'd be more.

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Speaker 1: I thought there would be more to it, but it

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Speaker 1: just see, it's just gam it's just gambling. We've found

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Speaker 1: a way to give children gambling.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and this isn't the first one either, Like their

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Speaker 2: blind boxes are definitely a thing, like Sunny Angels were

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Speaker 2: the last blind box thing that was kind of a craze.

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Speaker 2: They're little cherub like dolls, probably like two or three

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Speaker 2: inches tall, and they're all naked, and I think that's

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Speaker 2: why adults felt weird about owning them. But labuobos are

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Speaker 2: not naked, so people feel comfortable putting out them on

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Speaker 2: their like expensive handbags.

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Speaker 1: So that's what is it that has enabled this? Though?

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Speaker 1: Is it like very ta is Like this is a

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Speaker 1: very TikTok driven movement.

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Speaker 2: It's definitely on TikTok. I think. Also a big reason

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Speaker 2: they're so kind of like zeitgeisty or buzzy is because

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Speaker 2: they're impossible to buy. They're sold out all the time.

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Speaker 2: I went through the steps of trying to buy a

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Speaker 2: Laboo Boo on the PopMart app, and it was, hell,

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Speaker 2: why don't you woke.

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Speaker 1: Me through that? I'd love to actually like, how do

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Speaker 1: you actually allegedly buybies?

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Speaker 2: Okay, well, I didn't realize that you have to play

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Speaker 2: like a mini game basically like Boo Boo. This is

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Speaker 2: what people don't understand is like I have been through

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Speaker 2: the trenches to buy the stupid doll. You have to

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Speaker 2: so on the PopMart app, they're always sold out, right,

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Speaker 2: and they have like drops at certain times, and the company,

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Speaker 2: i think wanted to sort of recreate the experience of

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Speaker 2: going to a store and seeing an empty shelf where

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Speaker 2: you're like looking for the doll or looking for the product.

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Speaker 2: So when they drop, there are like digital shelves or

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Speaker 2: or like boxes where individual labo like six boxes of

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Speaker 2: Labuo boos will be place like digital ones, right, and

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Speaker 2: you can watch them sell out and you just scroll

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Speaker 2: through the boxes to find a la Boo boo for sale,

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Speaker 2: and most of the time they're all like grade out,

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Speaker 2: so that's something like it's in someone else's cart, and

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Speaker 2: then they'll get released, like someone will abandon it or whatever,

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Speaker 2: and then you can you have to like spam click

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Speaker 2: the box. It's crazy, and then you can shake it

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Speaker 2: and it will give you hints about like what it's not,

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Speaker 2: what doll it's not. I'm sorry, I feel like I'm

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Speaker 2: speaking in tongues.

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Speaker 1: No no, no, this is I'm following you. It's just horrifying.

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Speaker 2: It's really hard. And the other thing, I mean, PopMart

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Speaker 2: is they're sick. They're so sick and brilliant because they

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Speaker 2: also get thousands of people watching their TikTok lives for

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Speaker 2: hours waiting for them to drop laboo boos in TikTok shop,

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Speaker 2: And that is engagement. That's it's just like straightforward engagement

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Speaker 2: for me, you know what I mean, it's it's pretty insane.

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Speaker 3: So when does this jump into being? I mean, there's

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Speaker 3: no other ip around it. Yeah, but I think of

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Speaker 3: like Minecraft, that kind of stuff. I mean, very sort

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Speaker 3: of different product. But eventually they went, let's Microsoft bought it,

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Speaker 3: and then they made a movie and all that stuff,

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Speaker 3: and there was the commercialization was massive after it's very organic.

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Speaker 3: Is there a point do you think where that just

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Speaker 3: suddenly people go, all the kids are crazy about these things.

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Speaker 3: We can't just let this go by?

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Speaker 2: Maybe, like maybe, But also it feels so straightforwardly consumeristic

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Speaker 2: that like I could see it just dying down in like.

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Speaker 1: Two months recession indicators they stopped selling these out.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, honestly, I feel like people are being obsessed

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Speaker 2: with buying la booboos instead of like groceries or whatever

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Speaker 2: is a recession indicator, like these are cheap three, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean.

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Speaker 1: Like, I also feel like China just leads the world

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Speaker 1: in this kind of yeah, like nineties style evil consumerism,

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Speaker 1: Like this is some shit you would see in a

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Speaker 1: mid nineties film about evil tech CEOs, Like we've created

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Speaker 1: a devil dull like China.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I still, I mean, I feel like when

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Speaker 3: I used to buy football stickers as a kid.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, but this is so they were blind.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know whether there was a good players in

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Speaker 3: there or bad players. Different scale and different level of

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Speaker 3: a session from what you're describing there. But isn't there

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Speaker 3: just this part of a young person's brain that says,

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Speaker 3: I want to collect these, My friends are going to

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Speaker 3: collect these. It's fun, right, I mean, I don't see

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Speaker 3: it's combsolutely different.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's not like you're totally right in that. It's

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Speaker 1: kind of clicking into that. You had a bit of

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Speaker 1: that with the n f T S and you've had

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Speaker 1: right at the beginning, especially and with top Shots as well,

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Speaker 1: which was the NFTs for basketball games that they then

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Speaker 1: expanded and then failed. It was exactly the same thing.

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Speaker 1: It was the kind of top trumps or not top

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Speaker 1: trumps at football stickers. The difference is that they've built

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Speaker 1: like an economic layer to it to like torture the

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Speaker 1: people trying to buy them the disappearing boxes.

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Speaker 3: That is.

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Speaker 1: Manipulative.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's really interesting. It also feels very much like

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Speaker 2: what a lot of shopping is these days is like

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Speaker 2: a you know, a stand in for a hobby collecting.

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Speaker 2: Like I feel like the Boo Boos and Stanley Cups

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Speaker 2: are like the same thing. Do you all know what

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Speaker 2: Stanley cup? I'm sorry, sorry no, but that means your

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Speaker 2: your brain is good the test, like your brain is

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Speaker 2: not fried. That is like the women who collect like

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Speaker 2: dozens of Stanley Cup colors and there's no reason to

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Speaker 2: have them, but like that is their form of you

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Speaker 2: know that it's a hobby.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I just want to read something from the

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Speaker 1: Wikipedia page for La Booboo. The Federation Council of Russia

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Speaker 1: proposed banning the sale for the Boo Boos. The reason

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Speaker 1: was their frightening appearance and potential hunt children's mental health

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Speaker 1: in Russia. A Katsena alta Beva, Deputy Chair for the

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Speaker 1: Committee and Science Education, Culture, state that the figures caused

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Speaker 1: children to feel fear. I just want to say that that,

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Speaker 1: like that was just a very funny sentence. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Russia's massive ethics cause there it's just I think it.

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Speaker 1: You've really mentioned something though, with like collectibles that reminds

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Speaker 1: me of entities as well, where it's I collect comic

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Speaker 1: artwork and I original compic. I fucking delight in it.

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Speaker 1: I've filled my walls. I won't be getting anymore, but

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Speaker 1: like it has meaning and those I know like sports

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Speaker 1: Memorbile that they collect stuff because oh it's a meaningful

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Speaker 1: game whatever, or the player. With this, it's like like

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Speaker 1: n FT's it's that with all of the culture removed.

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Speaker 1: It's just strip mind to the core of you want

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Speaker 1: what everyone else wants, You want it now, how will

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Speaker 1: you get it? Only us? And the fact that there's

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Speaker 1: not another thing that Pop Mart has done like this

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Speaker 1: is so strange though, Yeah, like they're not. It's almost

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Speaker 1: like they're being a little bit cautious with it. They

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Speaker 1: don't want to overfill and push their luck a bit,

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Speaker 1: which is fascinating. And also the reason I mentioned this

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Speaker 1: China is American e commerce companies do not have that

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Speaker 1: killer instinct I feel like in China they'll fucking roll

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Speaker 1: our asses with making this cut of stuff. They made

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Speaker 1: an evil looking doll with no ip that they're just

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Speaker 1: like we own this by.

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Speaker 2: It, and now people are obsessed, like how did it

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Speaker 2: take off?

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Speaker 1: Was it? They're like, one, is it just something that appeared?

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 2: The weirdest thing is that, from what I understand, one

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Speaker 2: of the Black Pink girls we're seen, she was seen

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Speaker 2: with a labubu.

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Speaker 1: And that's Korean pop.

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Speaker 2: Yes, k pop group, one of the probably one of

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Speaker 2: the biggest.

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Speaker 1: Happens yeah the world I'm Sane video.

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Speaker 2: I can't remember if it was Jenny or Lisa, but

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Speaker 2: I think maybe Lisa from Black Pink had a la

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Speaker 2: boo boo and it like it had been kind of

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Speaker 2: percolating already, but that really like blew it up in

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Speaker 2: a crazy way. But Yeah, my prediction is like this

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Speaker 2: will be not a thing anymore when it's they're easy

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Speaker 2: to acquire because again, my theory is that it's really

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Speaker 2: just about the process of acquisition, and I guess it's

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Speaker 2: purchasing rather than like the actual thing. And I think

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Speaker 2: also a lot of other especially like American toymakers, are

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Speaker 2: desperate right, like what is their laboo boo?

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Speaker 1: What is I don't know, and the things it's it's

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Speaker 1: they're trying they're going to solve it by going, well,

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Speaker 1: we'll just make a better one. It's like, No, the

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Speaker 1: actual thing you need to do is engage your killer

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Speaker 1: instinct and call Fangil or one of those companies they

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Speaker 1: Fangile has more in common I think than any like

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Speaker 1: Mattel as far as creating a product like Labuobo. It's

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Speaker 1: just this thing of scaring people saying, oh, if you

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Speaker 1: don't get in on now this, now you'll miss it.

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Speaker 1: Just to think with the NFTs things with Crypto and

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Speaker 1: now they've brought it for children, which is great. I think.

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Speaker 1: I think it's good. It's also I think the natural

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Speaker 1: endpoint of this bullshit fandom culture we've been in the

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Speaker 1: last ten to fifteen years maybe where it's just like it's.

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Speaker 3: Just why, I think you're underestimated the degree to we

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Speaker 3: see these things just cycle around.

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Speaker 1: Oh again, I don't disagree on that it is a

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Speaker 1: cyclical thing, but I think it's also just like, why

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Speaker 1: do we have this because everyone has this? Why do

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Speaker 1: we do this because everyone does this? Accelerated by things

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Speaker 1: like TikTok and TikTok Live in particular.

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Speaker 3: Yah, the urgency is interesting. Yeah, and I think the

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Speaker 3: if there's one thing, even if the toys go away,

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Speaker 3: that mechanism an enduring thing. But it'd be interesting to

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Speaker 3: see if an American brand does try that fully here,

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Speaker 3: because it's kind of similar to do you ever remember

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Speaker 3: used to use like booking dot com and I would say,

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Speaker 3: three people book this room in the last twenty minutes,

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Speaker 3: you better get it otherwise you're not going to do it.

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Speaker 3: And we we sort of we that was, you know,

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Speaker 3: got a lot of scrutiny, has been an unfair way

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Speaker 3: to force people to buy things in a hurry, and

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Speaker 3: I suspect would see the same.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's like the natural growth of e commerce

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Speaker 1: and all the ways you can kind of push a customer.

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Speaker 1: You see it with like every single Instagram drop chip thing.

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Speaker 1: If you click then it's like sixty two people are

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Speaker 1: buying this right now. Yeah, you need to buy this

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Speaker 1: special code looking at it. Yeah, and if you don't,

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Speaker 1: they're going to sell out. This is the pans that

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Speaker 1: sold out. There are so many pans that sell out

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Speaker 1: on Instagram. But leading into another thing, actually both of

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Speaker 1: you have kind of covered as well. It feels like

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Speaker 1: this is almost humanity trying to move with the algorithm

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Speaker 1: to fit what people would be going after a growth

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Speaker 1: of as you put Dave, that the fact that, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we are trend seekers, we will want to kind of

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Speaker 1: fit in. But it leads to this thing of this

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Speaker 1: got popular because it got it got popular and it

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Speaker 1: hit the algorithmic side. You were mentioning before we came

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Speaker 1: in here here that there is an almost an seo

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Speaker 1: level to posting on TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Now, yeah, for sure, I mean, you know, I think

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Speaker 2: it goes back to do you remember like two years

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Speaker 2: ago everyone was freaking out that people were using TikTok

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Speaker 2: like a search engine, which no, was like, so quaint

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Speaker 2: I think I think like a Google exact mentioned it

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Speaker 2: at some event.

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Speaker 3: Right, well, they mentioned it. This is one of my

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Speaker 3: favorite parts. So during their antitrust here right right where

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Speaker 3: we say lost, eventually they are that Google is a

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Speaker 3: monopoly because kids are turned to TikTok to search, and

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Speaker 3: it was just it was and Google had this slide.

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Speaker 3: They were briefing journalists with than others that had all

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Speaker 3: the sort of supposed competitors, and it was just things

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Speaker 3: that they weren't competitive, and TikTok was one of them.

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Speaker 3: And there was this idea and because here's the thing.

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Speaker 3: If someone might go on TikTok and say, oh, good

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Speaker 3: restaurant New York and get like a couple of videos

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Speaker 3: or whatever. But the idea that there was like a

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Speaker 3: utility that's replacing like for like was very very helpful

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Speaker 3: to me. But it was at a point sort of

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Speaker 3: picked up by all these kind of trends arenown to

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Speaker 3: be like, oh, Google's in trouble because people are searching

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Speaker 3: on TikTok. Not really, you know, it's it's that'd be

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Speaker 3: like saying I'm searching on television. You know, it's there's

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Speaker 3: not this not the same thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely not. And it's obviously like it was deployed

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Speaker 2: very strategically by Google, you know, like bringing out very

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Speaker 2: specific statistics or whatever. But the I think the point

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Speaker 2: stands that like the same thing I've written about sort

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Speaker 2: of the degradation of Google Search as a window into

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Speaker 2: the web. And part of that is because people spam

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Speaker 2: the web with horrible things, like things that kind of

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Speaker 2: suck and are not useful because they're trying to appease

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Speaker 2: an algorithm, and I think that same thing is happening

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Speaker 2: on TikTok. It happens on Instagram, and a lot of

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Speaker 2: it is user like comes from the user. We have

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Speaker 2: to be honest that like people make shitty content.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: It's not just the tech companies who like make the

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Speaker 2: systems bad. But there also is like sort of the

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Speaker 2: guiding hand of TikTok where it will give creators ideas

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Speaker 2: for types of content to make. These are what people are.

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Speaker 2: These are the terms that people are searching for. What

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Speaker 2: if you made a video about trending restaurants in your

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Speaker 2: neighborhood or la boo boo, right, And part of it

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Speaker 2: is like people want to want ideas for what to

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Speaker 2: make yours. TikTok is a very punishing algorithm, at least

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Speaker 2: in my experience, Like if you stop posting, it's really

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Speaker 2: hard to regain views.

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Speaker 1: I wasn't sure. Yeah, I've actually always been So there's

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Speaker 1: a momentum.

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Speaker 2: All there's a momentum for sure, for sure, And this

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Speaker 2: is something creators have talked a lot about. But you

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Speaker 2: need ideas for what to post and if TikTok is saying,

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Speaker 2: a bunch of people are searching for this one specific

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Speaker 2: restaurant in New York, why wouldn't you make a video

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Speaker 2: about it? Right, It's like sort of it's it's almost

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Speaker 2: like a it's backing into SEO, where you kind of

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Speaker 2: instead of searching for, you know, terms related to what

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Speaker 2: you make, you take the terms that the platform is

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Speaker 2: giving you or telling you, suggesting you make content based

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Speaker 2: off of Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's it's the kind of incentive driven web at this point,

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Speaker 1: because I think that with the thing with SEO especially

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Speaker 1: is there were there were people always made shit content,

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Speaker 1: but there were also people who genuinely like, here are

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Speaker 1: ten things I really like in New York. I mean

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Speaker 1: one of my one of the saddest, like a brand

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Speaker 1: that's still around, as like Zagat that used to be

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Speaker 1: or Time Out especially.

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Speaker 3: I mean there's so many Sports Illustrated, you know, they're

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Speaker 3: just these places that were making good content their business

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Speaker 3: how didn't work? And one of my grievances with Google

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Speaker 3: at the moment strongly is that what they're selling now

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Speaker 3: is the solution to the web they created, Yes, saying

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Speaker 3: we've got all these disgusting websites out there. You go

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Speaker 3: on a local news website, my god, it's it's your

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Speaker 3: phone is like one hundred exactly, and there's pop ups everywhere,

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Speaker 3: and you get and Google's saying, oh, the web's bad.

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Speaker 3: We're gonna we're gonna summarize that as an aoverview. Isn't

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Speaker 3: that great? And so well, the web's bad because the

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Speaker 3: design had to be you know, the way we made

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Speaker 3: content had to change in order to appease the platform.

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Speaker 1: And that's the thing. You did a great piece actually

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Speaker 1: about there reaping the rewards of it's unfairy advantage and

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Speaker 1: also kind of like selling you swill and being like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we'll find the dogs, will find the diamond in the

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Speaker 1: turds that we created, and I think quite the turn afraid, yeah,

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Speaker 1: why they give me a microphone. But it's so sad

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Speaker 1: as well, because there is an innocence to it. It's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: if you know people are looking for New York stuff,

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Speaker 1: and you know New York, of course you'd say that

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Speaker 1: time out reason that brought up as well as it

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Speaker 1: used to be that you pick up time out and

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Speaker 1: be like, oh, well, these people think they're cool. Like

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Speaker 1: it was a big degree of that, and I think

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Speaker 1: TikTok is leaned into that as well, with content creators

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Speaker 1: like that, because I have seen tiktoks of stuff in

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Speaker 1: New York. I've moved to America in two thousand, and

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Speaker 1: they have spent many, many hours in New York. There's

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Speaker 1: shit I'm surprised by. It's cool, and then you get

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Speaker 1: the people who are doing it chop shop style, and

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Speaker 1: it's unfortunate but kind of inevitable that you'd see this

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Speaker 1: on social networks. What's confusing to me is why TikTok

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Speaker 1: feels like the first one to really give it the

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Speaker 1: actual try, because Instagram is sort of half asked it.

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Speaker 1: Twitter's never really like people try and appear for algorithms,

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Speaker 1: but it didn't feel like the companies were as serious

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Speaker 1: about it as say maybe a Google or indeed TikTok.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I mean Instagram at least the search

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Speaker 2: has always sucked. Yeah, and it doesn't. I don't know

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Speaker 2: that it makes sense to optimize that same way that said,

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Speaker 2: Instagram also does have like creator tools where it will

434
00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:12,200
Speaker 2: be like this is how you should edit a video

435
00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:14,240
Speaker 2: or this is how you should make content.

436
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 1: Right.

437
00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:19,639
Speaker 2: YouTube does this so it's it's not that I just

438
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: think that search on TikTok is something so different. I

439
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,879
Speaker 2: did something recently where I was I searched for something

440
00:20:25,880 --> 00:20:28,399
Speaker 2: on TikTok and there was like a little pop up

441
00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 2: that the app gave me that was like, if you're

442
00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:34,160
Speaker 2: not finding an answer that's satisfactory, why don't you ask

443
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: people to make content based off of it? Or something?

444
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:38,760
Speaker 2: It was crazy, you know, it was so many levels

445
00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: of optimization that I was like, this is really an experience.

446
00:20:43,040 --> 00:20:45,600
Speaker 2: It doesn't exist on other platforms on it's such a bid.

447
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:48,120
Speaker 3: It's such a by design thing with TikTok search, because

448
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:50,920
Speaker 3: one thing is really I find really aggravating as someone

449
00:20:50,960 --> 00:20:55,240
Speaker 3: who you know isn't as clued up on the online

450
00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 3: culture as evidently you guys both.

451
00:20:57,840 --> 00:20:59,400
Speaker 2: Are like, well nobody has laboo boo.

452
00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,879
Speaker 3: I'll often see on TikTok some reference or something and

453
00:21:03,920 --> 00:21:06,639
Speaker 3: I'll go, what are they talking about? What is that about?

454
00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,280
Speaker 3: And TikTok doesn't allow you just to link to another video, right,

455
00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 3: and so what it forces you to do is there'll

456
00:21:12,359 --> 00:21:15,120
Speaker 3: be the search suggestion, there'll be people doing searches, there'll

457
00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,040
Speaker 3: be people that know that people are looking for searchers,

458
00:21:17,080 --> 00:21:18,639
Speaker 3: so they will reference something else that will send you

459
00:21:18,680 --> 00:21:23,440
Speaker 3: somewhere else in entirely. And it's just the net effect

460
00:21:23,440 --> 00:21:25,040
Speaker 3: of that is, instead of going to the video that

461
00:21:25,200 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 3: explain the thing that I'm confused about, I end up

462
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 3: watching maybe five others with ads in between every second

463
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,240
Speaker 3: or third one, and I still don't really know. I mean,

464
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:35,640
Speaker 3: although some of the things I think if I did

465
00:21:35,640 --> 00:21:38,919
Speaker 3: see the explanation, I still wouldn't understand it. But just

466
00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,560
Speaker 3: trying to get there in the first place is really

467
00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,719
Speaker 3: really tricky.

468
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,000
Speaker 1: It's when you get to the point of like, why

469
00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 1: are they creating search tools on their platforms? Is it

470
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 1: so that you can find the thing you need or

471
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,359
Speaker 1: so that they can fine like they can kind of

472
00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:02,120
Speaker 1: get you halfway.

473
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 3: I don't think.

474
00:22:02,840 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 1: It's I'm just be clear. I'm not front loaded this

475
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: and suggesting the evil and everything everything everything they do.

476
00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:11,480
Speaker 1: But the tweaks they make kind of are one of

477
00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:14,080
Speaker 1: the funny things mere you put you actually put in

478
00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:16,960
Speaker 1: the article about dupes though, that excellent. I'll leave and

479
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:17,800
Speaker 1: call of these in their notes.

480
00:22:17,800 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 3: Don't worry.

481
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,560
Speaker 1: You don't have to email me. Uh was you if

482
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,960
Speaker 1: you look for Apple dupes on Instagram? You get this

483
00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 1: thing saying protect your favorite brands. The sale of promotion

484
00:22:25,240 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 1: of counterfeit goods is not allowed on Instagram. So funny,

485
00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,800
Speaker 1: But if you just type in dupes, it goes summarizing.

486
00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:34,000
Speaker 1: If you're looking for alternative alternatives to high end products,

487
00:22:34,040 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 1: dubes are are the way to go. A dupe is

488
00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:38,120
Speaker 1: a product that replicates the quality, indoor appearance, a price.

489
00:22:38,119 --> 00:22:40,040
Speaker 1: They're alternative. So funny, and then you get a bunch

490
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 1: of videos that are selling jupes. Sometimes it feels like

491
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 1: they don't really care that much. They just they just

492
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:48,199
Speaker 1: kind of like mailing it in.

493
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,919
Speaker 3: Ye tiktokt for jubes. I fine. I wrote a column

494
00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,320
Speaker 3: months ago now, but it was I saw one video

495
00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 3: and there's this guy and he hadn't even got out

496
00:22:56,480 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 3: of bed, right, and he said, oh, Apple's selling these

497
00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,239
Speaker 3: pod maxes for three hundred bucks, but these ones are

498
00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 3: only twenty And he was holding his hands you can't

499
00:23:04,800 --> 00:23:06,400
Speaker 3: see on the public, holding his hand in the air,

500
00:23:06,840 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 3: and he didn't have a product in his hand. He

501
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:11,680
Speaker 3: just had a screenshot of the Apple the official Apple

502
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 3: AirPod Maxes, and it was just sort of floating around

503
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:16,199
Speaker 3: with his hand. And then what he was selling on

504
00:23:16,240 --> 00:23:19,199
Speaker 3: TikTok shop was you know, a twenty bucks knockoff that

505
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 3: was terrible, and I wrote about basically how the TikTok

506
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,879
Speaker 3: shop is. I think it's kind of insulting to TikTok users.

507
00:23:25,880 --> 00:23:28,040
Speaker 3: They've really shoved it in. They put it in the middle,

508
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:31,480
Speaker 3: so it looks terrible, looks terrible. The products are just awful.

509
00:23:31,520 --> 00:23:35,520
Speaker 3: Some of the marketing people do is so trashy. It's

510
00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:37,359
Speaker 3: like got all this like sexual in the endo in

511
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:40,520
Speaker 3: it and all this kind of stuff, and TikTok were

512
00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 3: just like, well, no, we're happy with it basically, and

513
00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:45,800
Speaker 3: they actually tried to deep force a big correction on

514
00:23:45,800 --> 00:23:47,439
Speaker 3: a column that had nothing wrong with it other than

515
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:48,960
Speaker 3: the fact it was calling out that it was a

516
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:49,480
Speaker 3: terrible place.

517
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 1: I think that TikTok should lean more into the excellent

518
00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,720
Speaker 1: Chinese business owners, though. I don't know if you've seen

519
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: any of these insane ones where it'll be like we're

520
00:23:57,040 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 1: selling giant houses, you can't step, no permit needed. There

521
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 1: was one where it's like for people sent its like

522
00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: one says I'm racist, one says I'm ablest, and one

523
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: goes I'm stepan. If you need to buy high quality

524
00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: cables with your logo on it, and I love those

525
00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: because they're funny. They're funny, but they're also just like, yeah,

526
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: we're trying to do the algorithm, but fuck you by

527
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:19,199
Speaker 1: K and at the end that just like, we have

528
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: a bunch of cables with you that's respectable, that's that's commerce.

529
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,440
Speaker 1: We should support that, not this weird QVC. It almost

530
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: feels like we're trending towards what every music video in

531
00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,840
Speaker 1: the nineties was making, like this very kind of like

532
00:24:32,000 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 1: greasy consumerism. Though I will add this isn't me suggesting

533
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:39,480
Speaker 1: anyone specifically has decided to be evil. This is just

534
00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,480
Speaker 1: what happens when incentives for people. I think when you

535
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:44,640
Speaker 1: get like the slop shop in TikTok.

536
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 3: I think the incentives of all the major networks have

537
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 3: been so interesting and sort of shaping. I mean, you

538
00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 3: were talking earlier about Twitter. They never really push people

539
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,399
Speaker 3: in much of a direction in terms of what to

540
00:24:54,440 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 3: sort of be talking about. But one thing they did

541
00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 3: reward constantly the algorithm was anger. Yes, and Facebook got

542
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,439
Speaker 3: into that problem with you know when they you know,

543
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 3: for a long the longest time they thought any engagement

544
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,720
Speaker 3: is good engagement until they realized it was you ain't

545
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 3: and uncles like having to go at each other over

546
00:25:09,080 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 3: politics or whatever. That's when they realized that was bad.

547
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,320
Speaker 3: And I'm still not convinced they do realize how bad

548
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 3: that is. Twitter was all about anger I did for

549
00:25:16,480 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 3: a short while, and this was years ago I think now,

550
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,960
Speaker 3: But like TikTok did seem to sort of push people

551
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 3: towards doing stuff right, which I thought was quite healthy,

552
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: Like well, the things that did well were you know,

553
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,600
Speaker 3: friends getting together and dancing. It was being out and about,

554
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,960
Speaker 3: it was being funny. But the stuff that worked was actually.

555
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,560
Speaker 1: Quite entertaining, like Vine almost, but yeah, just like.

556
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:38,160
Speaker 3: Vine in terms of just the sort of the humor

557
00:25:38,200 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 3: that traveled. I think that what's happened, though, is they've

558
00:25:41,320 --> 00:25:43,920
Speaker 3: turned the screw of the monetization and the amount of

559
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 3: sponsored stuff and also like the and I never quite

560
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:48,879
Speaker 3: know what drives it, right, because it is it that

561
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,440
Speaker 3: some people come up with a format for a format

562
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 3: for a video that works and then TikTok goes, oh,

563
00:25:56,240 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: that's good, We'll get others to do it. What do

564
00:25:58,240 --> 00:26:00,160
Speaker 3: you think sort of TikTok is trying to nurture it

565
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,800
Speaker 3: itself first, I mean, I guess it's a bit of

566
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:02,239
Speaker 3: buu im.

567
00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, it's chicken and egg because I had this

568
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 1: theory about year ago, maybe actually twenty twenty three, where

569
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,520
Speaker 1: it's like, at some point, how much of content is

570
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 1: just going to be geared towards what they think the

571
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 1: algorithm wants, and because the algorithm with good reason, they

572
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,520
Speaker 1: don't want to just publish exactly what would work, because

573
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,040
Speaker 1: then people would only do that. And I think that

574
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: there's just this weird battle between I think any content

575
00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:25,720
Speaker 1: creat I think all of us, like there's a certain

576
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:28,639
Speaker 1: degree of what's going to do well. And personally, as

577
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:30,240
Speaker 1: everyone knows from this show, I've just done what I

578
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: want since the beginning, regardless of what people said. But

579
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,080
Speaker 1: there is a pool of like what will do well?

580
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,800
Speaker 1: What do people want? And what is a person in

581
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:41,120
Speaker 1: this case? And so you've just got this people probably

582
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,760
Speaker 1: I reckon for the most part, people are making honest content.

583
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: I think it's it's impossible to quantify it.

584
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's impossible to quantify. And also I don't think

585
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,439
Speaker 2: it's that like it makes a lot of sense when

586
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 2: you think of the Internet or these platforms as a workplace,

587
00:26:57,119 --> 00:26:59,199
Speaker 2: which for a lot of these people. It is for me.

588
00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,879
Speaker 2: It is in some way the Verge employs me and

589
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 2: pays my bills. But part of my work, part of

590
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,280
Speaker 2: my how my work travels is based on my ability

591
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: to ride algorithmic waves when needed. Right, And it's the

592
00:27:12,040 --> 00:27:14,439
Speaker 2: same way that like, you still see journalists on threads.

593
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 2: I don't really post on threads very much, but you

594
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,960
Speaker 2: see journalists on threads post screenshots of their articles, and

595
00:27:20,000 --> 00:27:22,159
Speaker 2: then in the replies they'll post the link because they

596
00:27:22,160 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 2: think that they're going to get downloaded. Right, you're down

597
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 2: downrinked for putting a link in there.

598
00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:26,360
Speaker 1: Insane.

599
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:29,120
Speaker 2: And that's the same way that like, you know, twit twit.

600
00:27:29,200 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: Like that as well.

601
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,119
Speaker 2: Now yeah, yeah, and I mean Elon Musk has just

602
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,240
Speaker 2: come out straightforwardly and said, like, you know, it's I

603
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 2: can't remember the term he used, but yeah, he's acknowledged that.

604
00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: But you know, the same practices sort of carry over

605
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: to video platforms. Right, you need to start a video

606
00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 2: in a certain way if you want it to get traction.

607
00:27:46,960 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 2: There are different ways, well, there are different ways to

608
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:51,680
Speaker 2: do it. Some some stuff that goes really does really

609
00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:56,080
Speaker 2: well is like you know, selfie style camp, selfie style

610
00:27:56,200 --> 00:28:01,239
Speaker 2: video and it starts okay, story time. I'm sure you've

611
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 2: seen this, Oh where you put it?

612
00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:07,240
Speaker 3: The millennials get it ready right and have it hello everyone?

613
00:28:07,359 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 1: Right?

614
00:28:07,560 --> 00:28:08,880
Speaker 3: Yes, the gen Z sake is the.

615
00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:11,960
Speaker 2: Is like, so, yes, that's well, that's a perfect example

616
00:28:11,960 --> 00:28:15,159
Speaker 2: of like people the shake is this thing where people

617
00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: were I guess surmising that if you put your camera down,

618
00:28:18,800 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 2: like you start recording, and you put your camera down

619
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 2: in a way that feels like you were just caught

620
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: something in the moment. Yeah, and you were just recording

621
00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 2: jumping into record a video like that is effective for people,

622
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,679
Speaker 2: or it makes it feel organic, or it makes it

623
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: feel relatable like whatever. But yeah, everyone does some like

624
00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: some level of optimizing.

625
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:39,920
Speaker 3: I think the dark side of this is that trying

626
00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:44,080
Speaker 3: to predict what works is turning people completely loopy. Yeah right,

627
00:28:44,360 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 3: Like so I saw and I won't say who is

628
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,120
Speaker 3: might have my assessment on how this person feels might

629
00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,280
Speaker 3: be wrong. But I saw a singer who made a

630
00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 3: short video maybe thirty seconds, where she had like one

631
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:56,640
Speaker 3: verse of a song and she's like, oh guys, you

632
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,760
Speaker 3: like this and it was wonderful and it got like,

633
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 3: you know, over a million views. I was going, I'll

634
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 3: record this recorded because and so she did, right, She

635
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:06,040
Speaker 3: sort of took time off the platform, made like an

636
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:08,400
Speaker 3: EP and put the songs out there, came back on

637
00:29:08,440 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 3: TikTok to make the content about the song being ready,

638
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 3: and it got next to nothing engagement, and you can

639
00:29:13,120 --> 00:29:15,480
Speaker 3: just see, at least my impression was that you could

640
00:29:15,480 --> 00:29:17,800
Speaker 3: see her kind of going why why, Like, I've done

641
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:20,200
Speaker 3: the song, I've done the actual work of releasing a song,

642
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 3: and the algorithm for some reason, maybe it seems less organic,

643
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 3: or maybe people just didn't like the song. Maybe I'm

644
00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 3: ugly now, maybe like all this, and people go, what

645
00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 3: is it that's preventing it? And I think that's where

646
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 3: it's kind of troubling to me.

647
00:29:30,480 --> 00:29:33,840
Speaker 1: I I agree, and I think that it's really hard

648
00:29:33,880 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: sometimes to see the difference between the algorithm and the

649
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:39,440
Speaker 1: reader or the viewer, right because it's like what did

650
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,520
Speaker 1: you like? Did people actually like it? As well as

651
00:29:42,560 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 1: the question there. There was also a YouTube video that

652
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,680
Speaker 1: went up a couple months ago where someone was investigating

653
00:29:48,720 --> 00:29:51,320
Speaker 1: why lots of videos have a person holding the tiny

654
00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 1: microphone the level of a microphone, and it really I.

655
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:56,960
Speaker 3: Do that, no, but that's a Bloomberg TikTok account. I'd

656
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: do the whole micro thing and people take the make

657
00:29:58,560 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 3: out it's weird.

658
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: Apparently algorithm likes it. Certain think that Dan over a

659
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 1: morning brew as well. Does he holds like a full

660
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:09,880
Speaker 1: scale like old news microft. I think people need to

661
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:10,479
Speaker 1: go back to that.

662
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 3: I love the subway takes guy has it on like

663
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 3: a little yah yeah level.

664
00:30:14,720 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: I think that that's lovely as well. But it's like

665
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: I hadn't really thought about how it drives people insane,

666
00:30:20,000 --> 00:30:22,400
Speaker 1: but it does. Even early days of the newsletters, it

667
00:30:22,560 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: takes Matt Weinberger, friend of the show, be.

668
00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 3: Like, is this ship the people like?

669
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: Just keep writing, just to ignore, just keep writing. It

670
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: will grow naturally. But we've been conditioned for this thing

671
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: where we're constantly even me and I try and pretend

672
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:37,240
Speaker 1: I don't get affected by stuff for this, but it's like,

673
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 1: you see something do well or don't do well. Your

674
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,360
Speaker 1: natural inclination is why what can I do to it?

675
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 1: Am I wrong? Am I? Somehow? And it's interesting how

676
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: so much this comes back to the platform incentives.

677
00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 3: Right, and the human inside you assumes people don't like it, right,

678
00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:54,040
Speaker 3: that's your initial reaction to it, I'd say, I always

679
00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 3: find your boss Nileli. He's always talking about how the

680
00:30:59,800 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 3: verse just just has to be true to what it's

681
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 3: doing and not sort of bow to any of the

682
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,200
Speaker 3: platforms as they go. And I think that's always been

683
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: a very good lesson because I think too many media

684
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,240
Speaker 3: outlets we sit here and go, oh, Okay, this is

685
00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,400
Speaker 3: the thing that's working on TikTok. We're gonna sit down

686
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: and in a certain way, we're going to do it

687
00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 3: in a certain tone. And I've had previous employers where

688
00:31:17,920 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 3: they're like, oh, just trying to do it off the cuff,

689
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:21,920
Speaker 3: and I'm like, well, when you work for them, I

690
00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:25,520
Speaker 3: stress a previous employee, I would argue with my editors

691
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 3: and saying authentic for us was to not do that.

692
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:32,000
Speaker 3: And it's a very sort of hello fellow kids thing

693
00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:35,480
Speaker 3: that happened. Serious places tried to be all like hey,

694
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: you know, like in the same way that when a

695
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:40,840
Speaker 3: politician like Chuck Schumer tries to do some TikTok joke,

696
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 3: it's like it's not real, it doesn't and it's embarrassing

697
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 3: and it's patronizing to the people. So yeah, also off.

698
00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, can you just do something off the calf. Oh

699
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,240
Speaker 1: you would like me to fake spontaneity, Absolutely, I'll get

700
00:31:51,600 --> 00:31:54,320
Speaker 1: But it's it gets back to the credit to Neili Hear.

701
00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 1: The term Google zero, I think is really interesting because

702
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:59,800
Speaker 1: this idea that and as you wrote about recently Day

703
00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,920
Speaker 1: that Google is basically possibly taking away the traffic from

704
00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 1: everyone or dictating who gets traffic now in a very

705
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: direct way. They're not one they control because it's a

706
00:32:08,600 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 1: large language model, or at least controlling, it's indirect, and

707
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:16,000
Speaker 1: I think it's it's almost like a final mut like

708
00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: Boxer in animal Farm being marched to the glue factory,

709
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 1: the final way you've outlived your usefulness. And I feel

710
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 1: like the media and I, by the way, I say

711
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,000
Speaker 1: this with a great deal of sympathy. Yeah, you're going

712
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,240
Speaker 1: to chase, which would get you clicks for your click

713
00:32:28,320 --> 00:32:32,000
Speaker 1: driven business. But I think you've seen where at the

714
00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 1: end or the beginning of a dark kind of like

715
00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 1: semi dark era where we're seeing the cost of orienting

716
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: journalism around trends and clicks so aggressively, and we're kind

717
00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:44,880
Speaker 1: of now little boomers and everything. We're seeing the natural

718
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 1: result of orienting things around trend chasing because It's like,

719
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: here's a thing that has no real resell value that

720
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: owning it is just symbolic. Do you care about the show? Now?

721
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 1: Why are you making these news stories? Well, it's because

722
00:32:57,080 --> 00:32:58,560
Speaker 1: people are going to be looking for them. Why are

723
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:00,840
Speaker 1: you covering the same thing as everyone else? Because everyone's

724
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:02,959
Speaker 1: looking And there's a fair argument for that. If there

725
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 1: is a big funding round or a big news story,

726
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:08,080
Speaker 1: of course everyone's going to cover it. And it's like

727
00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: the functionality of journalism. And I think this Google AI

728
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: thing is it's scary, man. I think like Neela got

729
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 1: there early. I'll give him this.

730
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 2: The other one thing I'll say about the Google zero

731
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 2: this idea that you know, the traffic will go down

732
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:23,520
Speaker 2: until it hits nothing.

733
00:33:23,600 --> 00:33:24,560
Speaker 1: I don't think it will hit nothing.

734
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think for some people it has basically hit nothing. However,

735
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: I will say that like and I posted this on

736
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:34,560
Speaker 2: Blue Sky, but this has just been the mo for

737
00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 2: Google and with search for years before AI overviews. The

738
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 2: idea that Google is self dealing, right, that it creates

739
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: products that then replace the things that other people were

740
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,840
Speaker 2: doing in search. That is old news. And it's funny

741
00:33:50,880 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: that you know people are kind of that the AI

742
00:33:53,920 --> 00:33:56,560
Speaker 2: overview of it all is what kind of finally makes

743
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: people realize it. When I worked at the Markup, we

744
00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,360
Speaker 2: and the story by some great former colleagues that like,

745
00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 2: measured the percentage of the first page of Google results

746
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 2: on a phone screen, how much of that space was

747
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: taken up by Google products itself, and it was like

748
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: forty one percent. And that killed websites like celebrity net worth,

749
00:34:18,080 --> 00:34:21,759
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, or like travel companies because

750
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 2: Google had flights shopping, right, like all of these services

751
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,919
Speaker 2: that other sites were providing, Google just made its own

752
00:34:30,000 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: version and they were like, we're gonna put this at

753
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:34,279
Speaker 2: the top. That's what That's what's happening with AI, which

754
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:34,719
Speaker 2: is the.

755
00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 3: Same thing with in those cases in Europe they regulated

756
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 3: against it, right, So when when these companies come and say, oh,

757
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:43,400
Speaker 3: Europe's being so overbearing, or that's what they're talking about, right,

758
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 3: they're talking about the fact that Google Shopping can't dominate

759
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,080
Speaker 3: the top twenty percent of a search page when you

760
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: search for you know, iPad or whatever you know. So

761
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 3: that's what was they were so aggrieved by. And I

762
00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 3: mean even but now with all the I mean, I

763
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 3: was on my my brother on myself and the vantage

764
00:34:58,280 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 3: it was I was scrolling for.

765
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 2: Days and now they're doing the entirely AI generated whole page.

766
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:09,279
Speaker 2: Did you see this? Yeah, I forget what it's called.

767
00:35:09,280 --> 00:35:11,360
Speaker 2: I would have to look it up, but they announced

768
00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 2: it last Friday, Thursday or Friday. And basically it's separate

769
00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 2: from AI mode. You search for something and it creates

770
00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 2: honestly exactly what web pages look like websites and it

771
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 2: is you know, it'll have a section if you search

772
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,000
Speaker 2: I think the example they gave was like solo traveling

773
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:29,840
Speaker 2: in Japan, and the top part will be like reddit

774
00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 2: and reddit and YouTube posts, so like communities or forums.

775
00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:36,280
Speaker 2: Then there will be a whole different section of the serp,

776
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 2: the search engine result page that is, yes, that is

777
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:43,200
Speaker 2: web guide, web Guide, web Guide, and then it'll be

778
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,480
Speaker 2: sort of like you know, top places to go and

779
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 2: it will pull stuff in from Expedia or not Expedia,

780
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: trip Advisor, things like that. It's it basically sub sections

781
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 2: the SERP to look like an SEO generated or like

782
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 2: an SEO driven article. It's it's really crazy.

783
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 1: It's the snake that is, who needs websites?

784
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:03,239
Speaker 3: No, But it's all over, isn't it?

785
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: But that's the thing, it's the net. It's ironic as

786
00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: well because the origins of Google were based on this

787
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 1: idea that there was too much original content for you

788
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: to find it alone, and it was kind of noble.

789
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:15,080
Speaker 1: And also within the original paper they were like, yeah,

790
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 1: if ads ever get involved with this, it's fucked. Man.

791
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 1: Were they right? But it's this sense of they've never

792
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: had much gratitude towards the web, and you made me

793
00:36:23,400 --> 00:36:26,440
Speaker 1: actually think of something went with traffic dropping away. This

794
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,840
Speaker 1: is also if you read like Search Engine Journal and

795
00:36:29,239 --> 00:36:31,239
Speaker 1: like these are great publications, by the way, you want

796
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,040
Speaker 1: to see some real like journalists as journalists, people that

797
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: read SEO and talk to SEO people, or day Jesus

798
00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: Christ rusty over there. But there were so many situations

799
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:43,800
Speaker 1: where traffic has just disappeared from it from a concept

800
00:36:43,960 --> 00:36:46,840
Speaker 1: and they just Google went no, not today. The idea

801
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,279
Speaker 1: that they're building pages like this is fascinating as well,

802
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,919
Speaker 1: because it's like, wow, we don't need you anymore, Yes,

803
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:55,480
Speaker 1: you fucking do, dick. What how is it going to

804
00:36:55,560 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 1: generate the page? What's it going to be based on?

805
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,200
Speaker 1: And they're they're thought, I imagine, I'm guessing is likely. Oh,

806
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,680
Speaker 1: people won't notice. I think people will. I think they will.

807
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 1: I think people will see AI results in, which is

808
00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:10,920
Speaker 1: why the traffic's dropping and go okay. That answers my question.

809
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:13,480
Speaker 1: But I think an entire fake page people are going

810
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: to be like, okay, and maybe they'll click them, but

811
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: they're not going to stick around on them. They're not

812
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: going to read much. It's not going to be particularly enjoyable.

813
00:37:20,880 --> 00:37:23,839
Speaker 1: But maybe I'm wrong, and I hope I am not wrong,

814
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:26,239
Speaker 1: because if this is an idea of something replacing the

815
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:28,960
Speaker 1: web that is Google like, that's more Google zero than

816
00:37:28,960 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: anything I've ever seen.

817
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:34,760
Speaker 3: Grotesque it It's just part of a pattern of reducing

818
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 3: any need to go off that yeah, to get And

819
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 3: one of the most egregious examples of it isn't even AI.

820
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:42,600
Speaker 3: And every time I say it, it annoys me more

821
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 3: and more so. One of the things that some publications

822
00:37:45,560 --> 00:37:47,480
Speaker 3: have been quite successful, app bloombo is one of them.

823
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,360
Speaker 3: New York Times famous is games, right word or connections

824
00:37:51,400 --> 00:37:54,120
Speaker 3: or whatever, a little thing that would make people subscribe

825
00:37:54,120 --> 00:37:55,960
Speaker 3: to the app, open the app every day, maybe catch

826
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,839
Speaker 3: a bit of news while they're there, right and now

827
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 3: LinkedIn doing minigames, And I'm like, what can you explain

828
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 3: this LinkedIn games?

829
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:06,920
Speaker 1: Because I got the pop up for the Apple News

830
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 1: thing and I think I posted it on Instagram and

831
00:38:08,560 --> 00:38:11,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what this ship is just it's but

832
00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:12,920
Speaker 1: one of these LinkedIn games please walk.

833
00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,120
Speaker 3: I mean they're just little word games. I mean, there's nothing.

834
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 3: They're just trying to sort of do you know. I've

835
00:38:17,880 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 3: not played the LinkedIn once, but the Apple ones just

836
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 3: mini crossword that kind of stuff. The thing with the

837
00:38:22,120 --> 00:38:24,200
Speaker 3: LinkedIn is I find quite funny is it will tell

838
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 3: you how many of your colleagues have that, and it's like, oh,

839
00:38:27,600 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 3: three hundred of your colleagues a Bloomberg have done the

840
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:31,960
Speaker 3: mini cross That's that's really a useful information.

841
00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,680
Speaker 2: I imagine the crossword answer for every single day on

842
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:38,239
Speaker 2: LinkedIn is just like hustle, rise, grind or.

843
00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:40,920
Speaker 3: That would be quite fun, though, Yeah, that would make

844
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 3: me sort of go for it.

845
00:38:41,760 --> 00:38:45,239
Speaker 1: That would require too much like charm and thought.

846
00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: But LinkedIn, if you're listening, I can write your games.

847
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:52,440
Speaker 1: Also, they added vertical video to LinkedIn evil and I

848
00:38:52,480 --> 00:38:55,320
Speaker 1: think that if you post one of those, someone should

849
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,399
Speaker 1: come visit your house. They're like, no, I'm thinking more

850
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 1: like the FB. It's like, what what you got on

851
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: the laptop? Let me let me check that hard drive

852
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,360
Speaker 1: real quick. But it's it's so funny as well, because

853
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 1: all this is just coming down to please click our website.

854
00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:12,080
Speaker 1: Please don't leave our website. Our website is the most important.

855
00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: It almost feels just desperate, like it feels the TikTok generally.

856
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:20,320
Speaker 1: And I don't say this with any I. TikTok upsets

857
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:21,960
Speaker 1: me when I use it. I need the at the

858
00:39:22,000 --> 00:39:24,279
Speaker 1: page to end. This is just a weird thing in

859
00:39:24,280 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 1: my brain. I'm like, no, infinite makes me. I don't

860
00:39:26,680 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 1: want to look at this forever.

861
00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 3: Have you ever reached the clip that says, hey, you've

862
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 3: been scrolling for a while.

863
00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 1: No, see, I feel like I'm to anyone who's.

864
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 3: Ever seen this, I've hit it. Yeah, okay, it's not

865
00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,360
Speaker 3: the most depressing. It's so bad, doesn't it.

866
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 2: Yeah. At that point, I'm like, god, damn, I need

867
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: to go.

868
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 3: You know what about like a click? If you've been

869
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,960
Speaker 3: scrolling and it must be like an hour and a half,

870
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 3: maybe I get really anxious it will please you know

871
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:48,920
Speaker 3: you've been doing this a long time.

872
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:50,600
Speaker 1: I need to hit the end. If I if I

873
00:39:50,800 --> 00:39:52,520
Speaker 1: get the sense that there's no end. I'm like, I

874
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:56,720
Speaker 1: can't look at it like what I require time to end? Please.

875
00:39:56,880 --> 00:40:01,040
Speaker 2: But that sort of limitless space is why we get

876
00:40:01,239 --> 00:40:02,919
Speaker 2: derivative content, you know what I mean?

877
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: Like that that's kind of because people want more.

878
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 2: People want more, and also it just if there's space,

879
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 2: someone will fill it. Yeah, And that was kind of

880
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 2: what I was trying to get at in my dupe story,

881
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: which is like the same thing that happens on an

882
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: infinite scroll feed on recommendation based social media platforms is

883
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:20,040
Speaker 2: happening to like our physical goods simply because there is

884
00:40:20,120 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: Amazon space. There are Amazon pages to fill, and you

885
00:40:24,480 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 2: need ideas the same way that a content creator needs

886
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,920
Speaker 2: ideas to post every single day. Like when it is

887
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,839
Speaker 2: so algorithmic and recommendations based and taste space, it's just

888
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:36,239
Speaker 2: like just throw whatever, and I have space there.

889
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: And I hate to defend the platforms at all. I

890
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,319
Speaker 1: think the thing you said earlier about people did make

891
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:44,600
Speaker 1: shit content before actually really did resonate because it's there's

892
00:40:44,600 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 1: also a degree here of yeah, there's a bunch of

893
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: derivative content, but there's also consumer demand and yeah, as

894
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:52,239
Speaker 1: human beings, we want to see more of a thing

895
00:40:52,280 --> 00:40:54,680
Speaker 1: we're interested in. I do think part of the unhealthy

896
00:40:54,680 --> 00:40:57,440
Speaker 1: parts of the Internet is we can feel just about anything,

897
00:40:57,719 --> 00:41:01,200
Speaker 1: perhaps not for the best, but it's and there's a

898
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:04,000
Speaker 1: goodness to it, as well as many alternative communities that

899
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,839
Speaker 1: have found good things online and then others. But it's

900
00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 1: interesting because it's fulfilling the need of needing an infinite scroll,

901
00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:14,120
Speaker 1: which is a need that they created on the platforms themselves.

902
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,400
Speaker 1: And I also found that story interesting because you didn't

903
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 1: really have sympathy with any Like it felt like you

904
00:41:19,880 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 1: were empathetic for everyone, but not sympathetic to anyone. It

905
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 1: was like you recognize why people did these things, and

906
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: why people want jeups of expensive things is probably because

907
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,520
Speaker 1: the thing's too expensive. But then you had the skirt

908
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 1: worn by the by Taylor Swift. Yeah, I like Scott.

909
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 2: Yeah. I really like stories where you read it and

910
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 2: your allegiance changes. I think that's like one of my

911
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,839
Speaker 2: favorite things to write. And when I when I can

912
00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,200
Speaker 2: figure out ways to put it into that format, I

913
00:41:47,239 --> 00:41:50,439
Speaker 2: really enjoy it. But yeah, I mean like I don't

914
00:41:50,480 --> 00:41:55,279
Speaker 2: really love the debate going into like who's right and

915
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:58,400
Speaker 2: who's wrong, because it's just like not that helpful and

916
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,920
Speaker 2: not that interesting. That feels more like, you know, just

917
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:05,000
Speaker 2: gossip or something. But I like this idea that like

918
00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,799
Speaker 2: everyone is a little bit being taken in advantage of,

919
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 2: and everyone also sucks a bit here.

920
00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: And I also think that there is a certain degree

921
00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 1: of human beings take advantage of other human beings too.

922
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 1: They rip offs the I'm the person, I'm the La

923
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:34,759
Speaker 1: Booboo whisperer. It's a great quote there, like I'm the

924
00:42:34,760 --> 00:42:36,560
Speaker 1: person that can help you find the thing. There are

925
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,320
Speaker 1: all of these channels about how you can gambling, tips

926
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:43,239
Speaker 1: about how you can buy and resell stuff. There are

927
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:46,440
Speaker 1: ethically dubious things that pop up on the Internet, but

928
00:42:46,480 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 1: there's also hunger for it, those people taking advantage just

929
00:42:49,480 --> 00:42:52,040
Speaker 1: as much as the incentives of the platform take advantage people.

930
00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:54,680
Speaker 1: I think the platforms are generally more evil because they

931
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: have more capacity for harm, but that doesn't mean that

932
00:42:57,000 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 1: these small time people would not do evil things even

933
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 1: give and that scale.

934
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:03,320
Speaker 3: I sort of the platforms. The difference between how the

935
00:43:03,360 --> 00:43:06,200
Speaker 3: platform behaves and how what people describe as what the

936
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 3: legacy gatekeepers from you know, yesteryear, is that they don't

937
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:13,520
Speaker 3: they don't have any sort of standards of what's good right, right,

938
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 3: So if you're you know, you know, you're running a

939
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 3: children's television company Nickelodeon, Children's, BBC, whatever, you're not commissioning

940
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:25,200
Speaker 3: a show like Mister Beast or whatever, because you just

941
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,439
Speaker 3: something makes you going, oh, is this really what we want? Here?

942
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:31,360
Speaker 3: Is like, do we want to make it that everyone's

943
00:43:31,360 --> 00:43:34,319
Speaker 3: obsessed with money and they're willing to sort of do

944
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 3: these crazy stunts, embarrass themselves or whatever. And you make

945
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,640
Speaker 3: those decisions despite knowing that people would lap it up,

946
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:44,759
Speaker 3: people would go crazy. And I think you could say

947
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 3: the same thing about sexualized content. You can say say

948
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,120
Speaker 3: the same things about about gambling. I think, yeah, you

949
00:43:49,160 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 3: could do a great show about people gambling on sports whole.

950
00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:54,040
Speaker 1: We have one of back during the Super Bowl, and

951
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,920
Speaker 1: many listeners did not like that he talked about sports.

952
00:43:56,960 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 1: But it gets back to the same incentives, Like you're saying, though,

953
00:43:59,560 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: it's people take advantage of people.

954
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:03,279
Speaker 3: But I think there used to be this idea that

955
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 3: the major companies, when they're even down to say sixty

956
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,880
Speaker 3: minutes right on CBS, they would say, right, is this

957
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 3: genuinely important? And do we need to do? And I

958
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: think when the platforms don't apply those same standards. What

959
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 3: it means is is that the people with just completely

960
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 3: nonsense theories and opinions just get on that same surface

961
00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:26,000
Speaker 3: where any TV producer worth their salt of tool would go, Okay, well,

962
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:27,480
Speaker 3: we're not going to put this guy on because what

963
00:44:27,600 --> 00:44:30,239
Speaker 3: is qualifications? Don't you know? We don't know if he's

964
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,799
Speaker 3: talking gibberish or not. So there's been problems with that

965
00:44:33,200 --> 00:44:35,600
Speaker 3: in terms of who gets on. But like, I think

966
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:37,440
Speaker 3: it's I think it's better maybe in some respect.

967
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 1: No, and I think that, But you're also touching on something,

968
00:44:40,600 --> 00:44:44,040
Speaker 1: which is these platforms have, despite what they're doing right now,

969
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 1: have always acted as if they're never going to be

970
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:48,920
Speaker 1: the arbiters of what is used as content. It's just

971
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: like we're helping you find stuff. But it's very clear

972
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,480
Speaker 1: that they're they want to be the producer or at

973
00:44:53,520 --> 00:44:57,279
Speaker 1: least mimic being a producer as well. And it's very

974
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:00,799
Speaker 1: interesting all because everything we're discussing is just incentives. It's

975
00:45:00,840 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 1: incentives and how people are drawn by it. Because you

976
00:45:03,960 --> 00:45:08,480
Speaker 1: mentioned nutters like people like no, I mention utters. No,

977
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 1: I mean just like people of dubious intent intent and

978
00:45:11,840 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: content people like Curtis Jarvin or Eliza Yudkowski or these

979
00:45:16,160 --> 00:45:19,439
Speaker 1: less wrong freaks they were ten years ago, they would

980
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: have never had them. I would say, they would have

981
00:45:22,400 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 1: likely not got a New York Times whatever. But I

982
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,680
Speaker 1: think what that is is actually a mashing between everything

983
00:45:27,680 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 1: we're talking about, which is ten years ago there wasn't

984
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:32,279
Speaker 1: perhaps the poll of SEO. There wasn't the pool of

985
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,120
Speaker 1: tons of online content suggesting that we need to talk

986
00:45:35,160 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: to this guy and humor him seriously. There was tons

987
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,400
Speaker 1: of purporting saying these people were evil. But now I

988
00:45:40,480 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 1: genuinely think some of these things or some might get clicks,

989
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:45,399
Speaker 1: or they'll see the interviews that these people get five

990
00:45:45,480 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 1: hundred thousand views, So they're drawn by all these new

991
00:45:47,520 --> 00:45:51,359
Speaker 1: incentives versus having an actual quality bar. I do think

992
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 1: it is funny, though, that these companies to this day

993
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:57,800
Speaker 1: are still pretending that they have no responsibility for the

994
00:45:57,840 --> 00:46:00,839
Speaker 1: content they have no they have no quality standards they

995
00:46:00,880 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: need to maintain, and indeed they will tweak them to

996
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,800
Speaker 1: whatever level. I'm not even saying that anything has changed.

997
00:46:07,920 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 3: I mean there's been changes in the sense that they

998
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,960
Speaker 3: I think, well, I struggled to give Facebook too much

999
00:46:15,000 --> 00:46:17,879
Speaker 3: credit on this, but you know, they definitely have made

1000
00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 3: tweaks around just having you know, a regular family member

1001
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 3: talk on Facebook and that being driven to. But what

1002
00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 3: they've what they've kind of pivoted to. And maybe they've

1003
00:46:28,800 --> 00:46:30,759
Speaker 3: done it not out of any sort of obligation to

1004
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 3: improve the problem, but because they realize now that content

1005
00:46:33,320 --> 00:46:35,399
Speaker 3: made by people you don't know, that's sort of made

1006
00:46:35,440 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 3: in a certain way, you're going to look at that

1007
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:38,239
Speaker 3: for longer anyway, So they don't care.

1008
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,040
Speaker 2: There's more of it. Yeah, there are more people that

1009
00:46:40,040 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 2: you don't have them do.

1010
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:44,000
Speaker 3: And which is a really interesting mean I find now

1011
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 3: and the only time I get any utility from the

1012
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:48,640
Speaker 3: Facebook app is when it says here's what you're doing

1013
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:50,719
Speaker 3: ten years ago, And I'll take a screenshot of that,

1014
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 3: send it to whoever it was there, and go, look,

1015
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 3: can you believe that was ten years ago? And that's

1016
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:55,680
Speaker 3: going to start running out soon. I think I'm going

1017
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 3: to run out of those sort of you know, membe

1018
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:58,919
Speaker 3: because the people don't post it. But that time when

1019
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:00,600
Speaker 3: it used to be a platform and where you'd have

1020
00:47:00,640 --> 00:47:02,560
Speaker 3: like a party and the next day there'd be you know,

1021
00:47:02,800 --> 00:47:04,880
Speaker 3: undred photos of people tagged it. I mean that feels

1022
00:47:04,880 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 3: like a completely different way.

1023
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: It was so nice as well, like when I got created.

1024
00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:09,399
Speaker 3: That's the thing.

1025
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 1: Like as angry as I am at these platforms, it's

1026
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,760
Speaker 1: broken heart of romantic because when I got on Facebook,

1027
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 1: it was genuinely magical. Like you said, you go to

1028
00:47:16,800 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: a party, someone like ten ship webcam photos would be

1029
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 1: up there you see, yeah.

1030
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 3: And you.

1031
00:47:23,840 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: Or just like you'd see someone that you talk to

1032
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,080
Speaker 1: for a minute and you were friends. I had tons

1033
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: of friends at Penn State, for example, and there was

1034
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:31,640
Speaker 1: something like nice about that. And I guess that that

1035
00:47:31,840 --> 00:47:34,440
Speaker 1: was just before they realized how much money they could make,

1036
00:47:34,560 --> 00:47:36,040
Speaker 1: or before they went to public and.

1037
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,880
Speaker 2: They realized too that you know, humans have an endless

1038
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 2: appetite for slop, not even AI slap. It's just like

1039
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: if you give them a scrollly feed, they will just

1040
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 2: keep going until we hit the danger zone.

1041
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 3: Which does Facebook have a danger zone?

1042
00:47:51,400 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 2: Up? I don't think so, I don't think, just like

1043
00:47:55,440 --> 00:47:56,160
Speaker 2: don't look at the stame.

1044
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and I think it's the shift away from

1045
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 1: their claimed utility towards the real one that they want,

1046
00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:04,880
Speaker 1: which is they all want to be entertainment networks. Because

1047
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 1: this concept of we ran out of stuff. That is it.

1048
00:48:09,080 --> 00:48:11,360
Speaker 1: It's like you go on Facebook, you check Facebook and

1049
00:48:11,360 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 1: you go, oh, this, this and this. Okay, I'm done

1050
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,000
Speaker 1: because my utility here is social networks on Google. It

1051
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:19,279
Speaker 1: like I go and look for something. People might do

1052
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 1: idle idle looking, but they're like generally with a target.

1053
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: Now you've TikTok was I think created within the realm

1054
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,200
Speaker 1: of people want to see stuff like it was. It

1055
00:48:30,400 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 1: never tried to sell itself as a place where you

1056
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 1: meet your friends, a place where we interact with others. Yeah.

1057
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:38,280
Speaker 2: In fact, it was distinctly this is a place where

1058
00:48:38,320 --> 00:48:40,440
Speaker 2: you are not by people, you know, you know what

1059
00:48:40,440 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 2: I mean. You're posting things to to an assumed audience

1060
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 2: that does not include your parents network. Yeah.

1061
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:49,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And TikTok doesn't compare to the other networks. TikTok

1062
00:48:49,760 --> 00:48:52,799
Speaker 3: doesn't really encourage you to post right when you when

1063
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 3: you when you, If you do one video, then it

1064
00:48:54,600 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 3: will say oh do this, this, this, this is this.

1065
00:48:56,480 --> 00:48:59,440
Speaker 3: But it's quite content for people just to consume if

1066
00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 3: that's what they're But it's an entertainment. It's not like

1067
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,080
Speaker 3: a huge sort of you know, nudge in the app

1068
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,160
Speaker 3: to say, oh, get.

1069
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 1: Posting yeah, and I think we're even with Google, and

1070
00:49:08,480 --> 00:49:11,279
Speaker 1: it's like, what is Google anymore? Is it? Are they

1071
00:49:11,280 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 1: trying to not making it a search? Is it going?

1072
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:15,880
Speaker 1: Is a place where Google serve? I mean it always

1073
00:49:15,960 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 1: was a place where Google served you ads, but now

1074
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 1: it's you were in the Google zone. And I have

1075
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,440
Speaker 1: to wonder, if I say this with some optimism, whether

1076
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 1: someone might go, ah, what if we made a search

1077
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:29,760
Speaker 1: engine that helped you find things that could be a

1078
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:33,040
Speaker 1: billion two billion and your revenue business, you know it's

1079
00:49:33,040 --> 00:49:35,040
Speaker 1: not one hundred billion. But we also don't need to

1080
00:49:35,960 --> 00:49:40,000
Speaker 1: do antitrust shit every year. I'm being even saying these

1081
00:49:40,040 --> 00:49:41,799
Speaker 1: words out loud. I'm like, no, that's not going to happen.

1082
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:43,280
Speaker 1: Arab insom.

1083
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,440
Speaker 3: I mean, people are trying to make different I mean,

1084
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 3: Duck Duck goes kind of in that pain. But people

1085
00:49:48,719 --> 00:49:50,200
Speaker 3: just don't use them. That's the problem.

1086
00:49:50,320 --> 00:49:53,799
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. It's like, do they not use

1087
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,319
Speaker 1: them or it's just not as many as Google use them.

1088
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:57,960
Speaker 1: I'm not even saying you're wrong, it's just when you

1089
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,399
Speaker 1: say people, you mean most people, and yeah, most people

1090
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:03,840
Speaker 1: use Google. Most people stop the start their Internet journey

1091
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:04,400
Speaker 1: on Google.

1092
00:50:04,440 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 3: I mean The thing that ties a lot of these

1093
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 3: platforms as problems together is the point in which they

1094
00:50:09,480 --> 00:50:12,719
Speaker 3: go public. It all just goes nutso right because you

1095
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,799
Speaker 3: have I mean, Facebook is the classic example of this.

1096
00:50:14,920 --> 00:50:18,720
Speaker 3: It just then it just became massive growth every single

1097
00:50:18,800 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 3: quarter and that sort of and I think, I mean,

1098
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 3: this is such a sort of basic observation. I guess,

1099
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,080
Speaker 3: but you know, I think if you applied that model

1100
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:30,799
Speaker 3: to say the badega on your street, right, Okay, every

1101
00:50:30,880 --> 00:50:32,880
Speaker 3: year you need to grow by ten percent, imagine what

1102
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 3: that business is going to go mad? Isn't It's going

1103
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:36,960
Speaker 3: to be selling porn and it's gonna be selling drug

1104
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 3: just just to just to get the margins up right,

1105
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 3: And you're thinking, we're holding that.

1106
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:45,719
Speaker 1: No, this is this is the rot economy. This is

1107
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:48,840
Speaker 1: the growth. It's everything everything driven around growth. It's the

1108
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,160
Speaker 1: moment that growth must be perpetual. Because in twenty seventeen

1109
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:54,319
Speaker 1: there was an internal Facebook thing. I've brought it out

1110
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:57,799
Speaker 1: last last year. Big up to Jeff Orwitz Broken Code,

1111
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:00,040
Speaker 1: great book where there's a whole thing where Zuckerberg he

1112
00:51:00,080 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: did twelve percent perpetual growth when you I'm just really

1113
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:05,960
Speaker 1: sat and thought about this that is an insane fucking

1114
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: thing to put on a social network. I must have

1115
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,560
Speaker 1: more friends, I must connect with more. And it's now

1116
00:51:12,600 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: when you look at everything, that is the incentive everything.

1117
00:51:14,880 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: It's not really about do we buy toys, do we

1118
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:19,520
Speaker 1: search things? How do we keep people here or get

1119
00:51:19,560 --> 00:51:21,879
Speaker 1: the credit card? Which is I mean the age old

1120
00:51:21,880 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 1: capitalism thing.

1121
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:24,880
Speaker 3: The problem was with Facebook is that people didn't have

1122
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:28,319
Speaker 3: enough friends. Yes, exactly rut did constantly is that you've

1123
00:51:28,400 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 3: run out of stuff, and so then it became, ok, well,

1124
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 3: how do we make them when they're looking at this

1125
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:34,480
Speaker 3: site look on it for longer. And that's when we

1126
00:51:34,520 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 3: started to get alder mad. It's crazy.

1127
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:40,040
Speaker 1: It was profitable before they took it public. I've read

1128
00:51:40,040 --> 00:51:42,520
Speaker 1: stories which suggests that Mark Zuckerberg didn't want to take

1129
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,359
Speaker 1: it public, and I'm like fifty to fifty on whether

1130
00:51:45,400 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 1: he did, because there's enough evidence that suggests that he

1131
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:51,399
Speaker 1: was quite happy with it being a fifty billion dollar

1132
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:54,480
Speaker 1: public a private company. And then I think he realized,

1133
00:51:54,520 --> 00:51:56,200
Speaker 1: oh wait, I control this whole thing. I can never

1134
00:51:56,239 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 1: be fired. But it's like trying to give a soul

1135
00:51:58,840 --> 00:52:00,239
Speaker 1: to there's great.

1136
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 3: I mean, Jack Dorsey is probably the famous one. There right,

1137
00:52:03,200 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 3: he's and he's should never have been a public company,

1138
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,080
Speaker 3: and he's right if only been of fine business. But

1139
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:13,919
Speaker 3: people the vcs need their payday, right, that's the whole

1140
00:52:13,960 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 3: ecosystem could have.

1141
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: That's what I always wonder whether we don't have more

1142
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:21,360
Speaker 1: interesting bench capital models with like revenue shares or like

1143
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:23,799
Speaker 1: like something that is more interesting than if I give

1144
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,680
Speaker 1: you a bunch of money, this might you might sell

1145
00:52:25,719 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: this in the future. It's it's sad, but it's you

1146
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 1: know what, I want to ask a good question. Are

1147
00:52:32,200 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: there any parts of the Internet you enjoy right now?

1148
00:52:34,840 --> 00:52:35,799
Speaker 1: I truly want to know.

1149
00:52:38,360 --> 00:52:40,040
Speaker 3: You should have prepped me with this one before.

1150
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:42,480
Speaker 1: It's interesting having the gap.

1151
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 3: Like I'm sort of gravitating towards old style blogs, like weblogs.

1152
00:52:47,120 --> 00:52:48,759
Speaker 3: Do you ever see and I think, I don't know

1153
00:52:48,840 --> 00:52:52,640
Speaker 3: how plants. I think it's cock Oh yeah, cocky. And

1154
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:55,360
Speaker 3: it's just it's just a blog. There's maybe three or

1155
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,680
Speaker 3: four entries a day, and he's been doing it and he's.

1156
00:52:57,600 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 1: Got twenty years for a long long time.

1157
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's just a beautiful design and the stuff

1158
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:05,920
Speaker 3: is just interesting stuff. It's kind of reminds you of

1159
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:07,320
Speaker 3: the days when you just have a few.

1160
00:53:07,120 --> 00:53:10,080
Speaker 1: Weblogs that you'd rate since real traffic as well.

1161
00:53:10,200 --> 00:53:12,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually it does, but it doesn't mean you

1162
00:53:12,719 --> 00:53:15,480
Speaker 3: couldn't launch that side today and gain populator. I think

1163
00:53:15,520 --> 00:53:17,200
Speaker 3: you have this sort of legacy of people that have

1164
00:53:17,239 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 3: always visited that. I actually, although I'm a new reader,

1165
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:21,399
Speaker 3: so maybe I don't know, but.

1166
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: I kind of I agree with ninety eight percent of it.

1167
00:53:23,960 --> 00:53:25,799
Speaker 1: Other than I think you could do something like this,

1168
00:53:25,960 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 1: it's just that starting a new thing fucking sucks. Like that.

1169
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 1: I went, and I have some personal experience with this

1170
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: in I went and looked back where I was five

1171
00:53:34,239 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: years ago, three hundred subscribers, sixty views on my first piece.

1172
00:53:37,800 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 1: But you have to have the ability to do a

1173
00:53:39,520 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: bunch of shit until it makes money. And I had

1174
00:53:42,080 --> 00:53:44,279
Speaker 1: a main job, had a PR firm, and I think

1175
00:53:44,440 --> 00:53:48,120
Speaker 1: just making money in creating anything is so difficult. But

1176
00:53:48,200 --> 00:53:50,480
Speaker 1: I love I Actually I had not thought of it

1177
00:53:50,520 --> 00:53:52,360
Speaker 1: in a while. But it's just a place where someone

1178
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 1: thoughtful has said you should check this out. Kind of

1179
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,880
Speaker 1: mimics I don't know, friendships or iconoclasts, like the idea

1180
00:53:58,920 --> 00:53:59,479
Speaker 1: of someone who.

1181
00:53:59,400 --> 00:54:01,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and there's a as well, Yeah, I just kind

1182
00:54:01,120 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 3: of know you're going to get it's going to be

1183
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,600
Speaker 3: sort of mildly nerdy, but not too much so. And

1184
00:54:06,040 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 3: that's what you get when you go there. And I

1185
00:54:07,360 --> 00:54:10,279
Speaker 3: think it's Yeah, So when people get nostalgic for the web,

1186
00:54:10,360 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 3: I think it's that kind of discovery that they're thinking about.

1187
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:15,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's it is the thing that I think

1188
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,439
Speaker 1: a lot of listeners miss as well. It's like, we're

1189
00:54:17,440 --> 00:54:20,520
Speaker 1: not we don't just hate arbitrarily, We're not just angry.

1190
00:54:20,520 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 1: It's just there's something taken away. Like we mentioned Facebook,

1191
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: the quality. He also used to be Google. He used

1192
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: to just be able to dick around on Google and

1193
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:30,279
Speaker 1: find some bizarre stuff. I remember back in college. I

1194
00:54:30,360 --> 00:54:33,759
Speaker 1: lost this two thousand and six, I want to say.

1195
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 1: I was in my Dustin Panganis college room mate. We

1196
00:54:37,560 --> 00:54:40,120
Speaker 1: randomly typed in you know, you're right by Nirvana into

1197
00:54:40,120 --> 00:54:42,400
Speaker 1: YouTube and there was just this I think it's like,

1198
00:54:42,520 --> 00:54:44,319
Speaker 1: I don't even remember it had view. It was this

1199
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,600
Speaker 1: grainy video of this like young Asian guy seeing this

1200
00:54:48,760 --> 00:54:51,359
Speaker 1: like really kind of like slightly out of chewn version

1201
00:54:51,400 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: of somebody. It was so interesting in grim like he

1202
00:54:53,640 --> 00:54:56,400
Speaker 1: seemed very sad. I can never find it again. But

1203
00:54:56,440 --> 00:54:58,160
Speaker 1: that was the kind of internet I kind of missed,

1204
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:01,520
Speaker 1: like just these arbitrary moments. So you find these weird things.

1205
00:55:01,760 --> 00:55:03,640
Speaker 3: You can't find that clip on YouTube, But would you

1206
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:05,720
Speaker 3: be interested in two hours of Joe Rogan?

1207
00:55:06,280 --> 00:55:09,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, five hours because it will help.

1208
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 3: You find that. Yeah, and then if you watch that,

1209
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:14,800
Speaker 3: then maybe Charlie Kirk and then you're.

1210
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 1: In the well you've learned three times of racism. You

1211
00:55:17,239 --> 00:55:23,399
Speaker 1: get legs from how you are on computer, on website.

1212
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: I won't do that for too long. That's why the

1213
00:55:25,560 --> 00:55:28,400
Speaker 1: episodes are so long. It's ten minutes per question. So

1214
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:30,040
Speaker 1: what are you enjoying? Like?

1215
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 3: What?

1216
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:30,839
Speaker 1: Oh?

1217
00:55:30,880 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 2: Man? I feel like there are a few content creators

1218
00:55:34,160 --> 00:55:39,799
Speaker 2: that I really like and really tune into. There's a

1219
00:55:40,000 --> 00:55:43,080
Speaker 2: woman who makes like sort of YouTube video essays that

1220
00:55:43,160 --> 00:55:45,880
Speaker 2: are very well researched. Her name is Mina Le and

1221
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:50,080
Speaker 2: she does sort of like fashion and consumerism and culture

1222
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,560
Speaker 2: and art and stuff. And I think she is really

1223
00:55:52,600 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 2: fun and just like, clearly I saw this thing the

1224
00:55:57,640 --> 00:55:59,839
Speaker 2: other day that someone was like, if you can't write

1225
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 2: a normal essay, you should not try to do video essays,

1226
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,399
Speaker 2: and she can do It's clear she can do both,

1227
00:56:05,440 --> 00:56:07,840
Speaker 2: and I'm like, thank you so much, you know what

1228
00:56:07,920 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 2: I mean. So I really like her. There's another person

1229
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:16,080
Speaker 2: that I follow on TikTok and other platforms named Ryan Finn,

1230
00:56:16,280 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: and she is also really great, also kind of writes

1231
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:22,600
Speaker 2: about like kind of like a She talks about fashion

1232
00:56:22,800 --> 00:56:27,920
Speaker 2: and clothing and culture in a really like heady kind

1233
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:31,640
Speaker 2: of It's the type of content that people who don't

1234
00:56:31,680 --> 00:56:33,400
Speaker 2: read would see it and be like, it's really not

1235
00:56:33,480 --> 00:56:35,720
Speaker 2: that deep, but it is, you know, and I appreciate

1236
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:38,839
Speaker 2: that someone takes things seriously like that. There are also

1237
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:42,200
Speaker 2: like corners of the Internet, even on platforms like TikTok

1238
00:56:42,280 --> 00:56:47,200
Speaker 2: or Instagram, that I just like find the nerds and

1239
00:56:47,480 --> 00:56:50,600
Speaker 2: they still are just plugging away and doing whatever they want,

1240
00:56:50,680 --> 00:56:53,359
Speaker 2: and their posts get like fifty views and they're fine

1241
00:56:53,400 --> 00:56:55,520
Speaker 2: with it, and like that's I think where it's special

1242
00:56:55,600 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 2: where I don't like it when I follow a creator

1243
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 2: and suddenly everything is sponkn or I follow a creator

1244
00:57:00,880 --> 00:57:03,960
Speaker 2: and clearly they're just sort of like jumping on trends.

1245
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 2: I also like websites where there's still like new content

1246
00:57:08,120 --> 00:57:11,920
Speaker 2: being posted, but you can clearly find the markings of

1247
00:57:11,960 --> 00:57:14,240
Speaker 2: like two thousand and six, Like I'm a big knitter

1248
00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:19,240
Speaker 2: and ravelry is the was the place to find knitting

1249
00:57:19,320 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 2: patterns in like the early to mid two thousands, and

1250
00:57:22,920 --> 00:57:26,400
Speaker 2: sometimes I'll find photos clearly from that era and it's

1251
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,160
Speaker 2: like really delightful, you know what I mean, Like they

1252
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:30,240
Speaker 2: were posting to a different Internet. They were thinking of

1253
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 2: the web as a completely different.

1254
00:57:32,000 --> 00:57:34,560
Speaker 1: Space before the algorithms.

1255
00:57:34,080 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 2: I imagine, before the algorithms. And ravelry also like it

1256
00:57:36,680 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 2: has some algorithmic stuff, but like a lot of it

1257
00:57:38,920 --> 00:57:42,200
Speaker 2: is sort of pure. I think they're like forums, you

1258
00:57:42,240 --> 00:57:43,480
Speaker 2: know what I mean, people post on.

1259
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:46,440
Speaker 1: But this is why one of my favorites is baseball perspectives.

1260
00:57:46,560 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: I know you're a Dodger fan.

1261
00:57:48,080 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 2: Right, Dodgers they suck right now, everyone's really everyone.

1262
00:57:52,160 --> 00:57:54,880
Speaker 1: That's a dead But baseball perspectus I think has looked

1263
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 1: the same way since it was made, and it's just

1264
00:57:57,560 --> 00:58:00,200
Speaker 1: like really specific, nutty stuff. But I think you can

1265
00:58:00,240 --> 00:58:02,160
Speaker 1: even see it in sports. You've got people like Chad

1266
00:58:02,200 --> 00:58:04,560
Speaker 1: Mariama over at Dodgers Digest. I think it is you've

1267
00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:06,720
Speaker 1: got these like really specific and you know that they're

1268
00:58:06,720 --> 00:58:09,959
Speaker 1: probably doing okay, but they're not like millions of views

1269
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,000
Speaker 1: every month or anything. But you've got this kind of

1270
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:16,760
Speaker 1: niche strength and my hopium I snort aggressively, is that

1271
00:58:16,880 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 1: these will never stop being made because they're still being

1272
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: made now. There's never been a more bleak time to

1273
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 1: make niche specific content and keep making it. But people

1274
00:58:24,520 --> 00:58:27,080
Speaker 1: keep doing it. I mean Carl Brown from Internet at Bugs,

1275
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:30,720
Speaker 1: he like does the most straightforward thing and just talks

1276
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 1: and it's great and he has a growing audience. But

1277
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,760
Speaker 1: you can he does very specific developer Folcus stuff with

1278
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: a very straightforward explanation, lovely fella and it's nice seeing

1279
00:58:40,760 --> 00:58:42,479
Speaker 1: those and it's what gives me a bit of hope

1280
00:58:42,520 --> 00:58:44,920
Speaker 1: because if those people, if you never find any of

1281
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 1: that stuff anymore, if everything is just mainstream, I think

1282
00:58:48,400 --> 00:58:51,160
Speaker 1: that's terrifying. But even look at gamers Nexus, Big Hot,

1283
00:58:51,320 --> 00:58:53,680
Speaker 1: Steve Burke over the Legend Heart run Box as well,

1284
00:58:53,720 --> 00:58:56,720
Speaker 1: you've got millions of subscribers. There is there is hunger

1285
00:58:56,760 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 1: for this stuff.

1286
00:58:57,560 --> 00:59:01,720
Speaker 3: There's hunger for like passionate people story turning out. Even

1287
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 3: I mean, I was always a big fan of British

1288
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 3: guy Tom Scott. I feel like you might have and

1289
00:59:07,320 --> 00:59:09,360
Speaker 3: he's done that for years and years, made YouTube video

1290
00:59:09,400 --> 00:59:11,720
Speaker 3: and he did he did like twenty minutes on the

1291
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:14,760
Speaker 3: design of the British plug for like an outlet and

1292
00:59:14,800 --> 00:59:17,280
Speaker 3: how it's got this video and it makes the case

1293
00:59:17,320 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 3: that is, you know, one of the finest things that

1294
00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 3: Britain's ever come with, because you know, you can't electrocute

1295
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:23,960
Speaker 3: yourself by putting it in all sort of stuff. And

1296
00:59:24,280 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 3: I remember what you're thinking. I've just watched fifteen minutes

1297
00:59:26,640 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 3: about the history of the plug and I but he was.

1298
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 3: He's just such a sort of arresting, interesting guy. Bona

1299
00:59:32,800 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 3: fide nerd, but a great presenter. One of the things

1300
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,480
Speaker 3: I take from the sort of substack era, if you like,

1301
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,240
Speaker 3: is like I imagine, and I'm not going to make

1302
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:44,800
Speaker 3: you get into numbs, but imagine the Verge with its

1303
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 3: paywalk now has a lot of people saying, oh, why

1304
00:59:46,760 --> 00:59:49,400
Speaker 3: are you pay warning? And I find it really interesting

1305
00:59:49,400 --> 00:59:53,280
Speaker 3: that when big publications put up a paywall, everyone gets

1306
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:54,960
Speaker 3: a little bit mad, right they say that, you know,

1307
00:59:55,000 --> 00:59:56,960
Speaker 3: and like, whenever I post a link the Bloomberg's was like, oh,

1308
00:59:56,960 --> 01:00:00,960
Speaker 3: it's pay And yet when one person launches a substack

1309
01:00:01,000 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 3: and says, right, this is ten bucks a month, Oh

1310
01:00:02,680 --> 01:00:04,560
Speaker 3: my god, they kind of go great, good for you,

1311
01:00:04,720 --> 01:00:06,760
Speaker 3: definitely get behind you. And I think what that's showing

1312
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 3: us is one is a kind of you know, middle

1313
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 3: finger to the mainstream media. Fine, But then the second

1314
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 3: thing maybe is that I think people have respect for

1315
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:21,040
Speaker 3: depth and niche and real Well, yeah, because I think

1316
01:00:21,080 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 3: I think they want to sort of they love the

1317
01:00:23,200 --> 01:00:25,800
Speaker 3: idea that someone gives up and gives up, you know,

1318
01:00:26,120 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 3: a steady thing goes into a substat I mean, I

1319
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 3: think of Paul Krugman, who left The New York Times.

1320
01:00:31,080 --> 01:00:35,600
Speaker 3: I remember thinking, I remember thinking, Okay, Paul, you're being

1321
01:00:35,600 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 3: a cranky old man just because the editors don't want

1322
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 3: you to do that. But now his substack is brilliant.

1323
01:00:40,520 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 3: He goes to such length.

1324
01:00:43,120 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: Please get him in touch with me.

1325
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:47,520
Speaker 3: But it's great, and I think I'm much more inclined

1326
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:50,200
Speaker 3: to chuck you know, when when when The New Times

1327
01:00:50,200 --> 01:00:52,720
Speaker 3: wants to upgrade my subscription, I'd rather send that to

1328
01:00:52,840 --> 01:00:55,480
Speaker 3: Paul on his own. Get the entirety of this, because.

1329
01:00:55,280 --> 01:00:58,400
Speaker 1: You're incentivizing this individual voice and you know, the person

1330
01:00:58,640 --> 01:00:59,600
Speaker 1: kind of parasocially.

1331
01:00:59,760 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 3: And the way that I think bigger publications kind of

1332
01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:04,400
Speaker 3: lean intoight is to have these sort of nations version

1333
01:01:04,800 --> 01:01:05,600
Speaker 3: following right.

1334
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:07,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, everyone should follow me on the Verge

1335
01:01:08,120 --> 01:01:09,920
Speaker 2: so you can follow me and all the topics I

1336
01:01:09,960 --> 01:01:12,000
Speaker 2: write about. But I'm glad you said that, Dave, because

1337
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:16,400
Speaker 2: I think that is it shows a thing that mass media,

1338
01:01:16,520 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 2: big media companies have failed to do, which is explain

1339
01:01:18,680 --> 01:01:21,280
Speaker 2: what we're actually doing day to day. And I that's

1340
01:01:21,320 --> 01:01:24,080
Speaker 2: why I am active on TikTok, you know what I mean.

1341
01:01:24,120 --> 01:01:26,880
Speaker 2: I talk to people who will never probably read my

1342
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:30,760
Speaker 2: story and probably will never subscribe to the Verge. Truthfully,

1343
01:01:30,880 --> 01:01:32,920
Speaker 2: some do, thank you so much, but a lot of

1344
01:01:32,960 --> 01:01:35,000
Speaker 2: them will just watch my videos and that is a

1345
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 2: way for me to explain to them what it takes

1346
01:01:37,240 --> 01:01:38,920
Speaker 2: for me to write a story. This is how I

1347
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: talk to people. This is like I think people don't

1348
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 2: realize that, like when I'm writing stories, I'm actually sometimes

1349
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:45,720
Speaker 2: going in person to interview the person, you know what

1350
01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:48,680
Speaker 2: I mean. Like it's and I don't blame them really

1351
01:01:48,720 --> 01:01:51,919
Speaker 2: for not knowing, because media has done a really bad

1352
01:01:52,000 --> 01:01:56,560
Speaker 2: job of explaining it historically. And I hope that you know,

1353
01:01:56,600 --> 01:01:59,440
Speaker 2: folks who read my work know that, Like I'm I'm

1354
01:01:59,480 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 2: a I'm one person and I write these stories and

1355
01:02:01,720 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 2: obviously there's copy editors and editors and photo editors and

1356
01:02:06,440 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 2: you know like dev folks who make my stories come

1357
01:02:09,480 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 2: to life, but like we are just people making shit

1358
01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:13,720
Speaker 2: that we like and we think is worth your time.

1359
01:02:14,200 --> 01:02:18,160
Speaker 2: And every media company should be showing that off you.

1360
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:20,479
Speaker 1: Made a really you made a post quite like maybe

1361
01:02:20,520 --> 01:02:22,479
Speaker 1: it was last year forgive me where it was saying

1362
01:02:22,480 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 1: we're kind of journalists are seeding ground to content creators

1363
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 1: who are reusing their stuff. And I think it comes

1364
01:02:28,120 --> 01:02:30,880
Speaker 1: down to a failure of not saying anything specifically about

1365
01:02:30,880 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 1: any given out there. But I failed to failure to

1366
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,520
Speaker 1: realize that people want people. They want to read people.

1367
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: They and I think that large broadsheets tend to fail. Actually,

1368
01:02:40,040 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 1: I will give big props to the ft for doing this,

1369
01:02:42,800 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 1: that they let their freak flags fly, Bryce Elder the

1370
01:02:45,520 --> 01:02:49,880
Speaker 1: Legend and like Alphaville as well, because people want to

1371
01:02:49,920 --> 01:02:53,320
Speaker 1: read people. And I think that what should be table

1372
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,560
Speaker 1: stakes now is that every outlet should get everyone a

1373
01:02:56,560 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 1: good microphone, get everyone a good camera media, train them

1374
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:02,760
Speaker 1: up a bit so that they can sound good and

1375
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:05,200
Speaker 1: represent the work of the publication in a personal way

1376
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:08,120
Speaker 1: that makes people more willing to understand. There's a paywall,

1377
01:03:08,440 --> 01:03:11,480
Speaker 1: which is a reasonable thing, whether however you feel about

1378
01:03:11,480 --> 01:03:13,800
Speaker 1: the Verge or any other outlet. Yeah, money, the things

1379
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,600
Speaker 1: cost money to do. Money money so expensive.

1380
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:19,800
Speaker 2: It's really fucking expensive to write six thousand word features.

1381
01:03:19,840 --> 01:03:23,120
Speaker 2: That's like months of my time, many many people's you know,

1382
01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 2: work and resources. And I think also, like if we

1383
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 2: don't fill that, and I know a lot of people

1384
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:31,800
Speaker 2: disagreed with me when I said, like we're seeding ground,

1385
01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 2: and people didn't like it for a lot of valid reasons.

1386
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 2: But if we are not there, something will fill the space.

1387
01:03:39,000 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 2: I was basically just sick of seeing my stories super

1388
01:03:42,840 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 2: you know, behind someone's head.

1389
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: And you made this point very clearly. It's what you said,

1390
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:48,440
Speaker 1: like if someone taking my stuff.

1391
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 2: Someone taking my stuff, Yeah, exactly, it's someone taking my stuff.

1392
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:54,480
Speaker 2: It's they're misrepresenting it, getting basic facts wrong. And like

1393
01:03:54,600 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 2: I have thirty minutes in my day, I will just

1394
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,040
Speaker 2: make the fucking video, you know what I mean? Like,

1395
01:03:58,040 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 2: I don't care.

1396
01:03:58,640 --> 01:04:00,400
Speaker 1: They should get it. There should be the space for

1397
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: they should have, Like I whole radio gives me a

1398
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: studio at least, because it's like, oh, imagine what want

1399
01:04:05,520 --> 01:04:07,520
Speaker 1: to do it in studio? Thing? What make for good content?

1400
01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:09,760
Speaker 1: It's just when you have resources, share them. Are you

1401
01:04:09,760 --> 01:04:10,400
Speaker 1: going to say something.

1402
01:04:10,480 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 3: Well, I think part of all of this as well

1403
01:04:13,600 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 3: is showing the process is the most It travels almost

1404
01:04:18,080 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 3: more than the story, right, and it breathes a ton

1405
01:04:21,280 --> 01:04:23,400
Speaker 3: of trust. I mean, I'm always surprised you can be,

1406
01:04:23,960 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 3: you know, in in rooms of people who are, you know,

1407
01:04:26,400 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 3: incredibly success and they're still they'll ask the most like

1408
01:04:29,160 --> 01:04:31,919
Speaker 3: rudimentary questions about the journalistic process, like oh, who tells

1409
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:33,920
Speaker 3: you what to write? And I'm like, God, my job

1410
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 3: would be much easier if someone did tell me what

1411
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:37,920
Speaker 3: to write. It being the other way around, things like

1412
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 3: do you people let people read things? I think it's

1413
01:04:39,800 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 3: going into the process is really really useful. And I

1414
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 3: always there was I was a dinner thing once and

1415
01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 3: this one guy made this point I thought, was I've

1416
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:49,640
Speaker 3: always thought of when they're talking about this is if

1417
01:04:49,680 --> 01:04:52,680
Speaker 3: you said to somebody, when was journalism in America the

1418
01:04:52,680 --> 01:04:55,240
Speaker 3: most trusted? Right they can my assumption most people would

1419
01:04:55,280 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 3: say water Gate, Ye, the thing? And he said no,

1420
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,080
Speaker 3: it wasn't Watergate that made and trusted. It was a

1421
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:04,520
Speaker 3: very good film about Watergate that made journalism and trusted,

1422
01:05:04,520 --> 01:05:07,880
Speaker 3: because all that film was was just them trying to

1423
01:05:07,880 --> 01:05:10,240
Speaker 3: get this stuff in the paper and them going through

1424
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 3: hell to make it happen. And if you want a

1425
01:05:13,120 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 3: more modern example, that the book she said by the

1426
01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:21,200
Speaker 3: New York Times reporters that did the Jeffrey Epstein. Sorry, no,

1427
01:05:22,080 --> 01:05:28,400
Speaker 3: Harvey Weinstein, I get, but their book they knew what

1428
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 3: Harvey Weinstein had done within about ten pages of the

1429
01:05:31,720 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 3: first chapter, right it was getting the rest of the

1430
01:05:33,840 --> 01:05:35,960
Speaker 3: book was getting in the newspaper. And I just think

1431
01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:39,440
Speaker 3: that is the more of that process that journalists share

1432
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:43,320
Speaker 3: off the cuff constantly is super powerful. That's what Twitter

1433
01:05:43,400 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 3: used to be very good. There's a big shift in

1434
01:05:45,280 --> 01:05:48,080
Speaker 3: newsrooms among bosses that went hold on a second, the

1435
01:05:48,120 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 3: official account is getting no engagement, but when this random

1436
01:05:51,240 --> 01:05:54,320
Speaker 3: person on one of our UK desks starts tweeting about it,

1437
01:05:54,400 --> 01:05:56,400
Speaker 3: that gets loads of pickup. Why is that? It's because

1438
01:05:56,400 --> 01:05:59,840
Speaker 3: people respect hearing the process more than the end result

1439
01:06:00,320 --> 01:06:00,760
Speaker 3: the events.

1440
01:06:00,960 --> 01:06:02,720
Speaker 1: They want to also know. And I know that this

1441
01:06:02,840 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 1: is difficult for different Like your opinion stuff is fucking fantastic.

1442
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:08,520
Speaker 1: By the way, at Bloomberg, It's really like Bloomberg has

1443
01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,640
Speaker 1: actually been very impressive in how they've grown out the

1444
01:06:10,680 --> 01:06:14,320
Speaker 1: opinion stuff. So this is not a detraction of that I,

1445
01:06:14,400 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 1: at least in my writing, have found that people really

1446
01:06:17,320 --> 01:06:19,600
Speaker 1: like to know why you care. And I think that

1447
01:06:19,800 --> 01:06:22,640
Speaker 1: explaining that even on here talking about your work, it's

1448
01:06:22,680 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 1: like hearing it just a little bit about the things

1449
01:06:25,680 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 1: that draw you into the story. I think it's so powerful.

1450
01:06:28,320 --> 01:06:31,080
Speaker 1: It's also people love it. I mean after c yes,

1451
01:06:31,160 --> 01:06:34,400
Speaker 1: I know, I see like Victorious Song and Das Sheerlyn Lowe,

1452
01:06:34,440 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 1: both of them get the loveliest comments and people, I

1453
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:38,360
Speaker 1: just found your work for the show. It's lovely. And

1454
01:06:38,400 --> 01:06:41,720
Speaker 1: it's also I feel like most readers like to know

1455
01:06:41,880 --> 01:06:44,560
Speaker 1: and appreciate. It's not like most people are like, oh,

1456
01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:47,040
Speaker 1: these fucking idiots just ti when they actually know what

1457
01:06:47,120 --> 01:06:49,480
Speaker 1: goes into it. I feel that there's more goodness in

1458
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:52,040
Speaker 1: people around this than they know. And now you've made

1459
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: that comment about watergain and be thinking about it all

1460
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: fucking days.

1461
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:57,000
Speaker 3: It's such a good point.

1462
01:06:57,880 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: So I'm going to wrap it there. It's been so

1463
01:06:59,720 --> 01:07:01,040
Speaker 1: one of for having you both me and what can

1464
01:07:01,120 --> 01:07:01,680
Speaker 1: people find you?

1465
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:06,440
Speaker 2: I'm on Blue Sky, TikTok, Instagram, and the Verge dot com,

1466
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:08,280
Speaker 2: where again you can follow me, Dave.

1467
01:07:08,760 --> 01:07:11,120
Speaker 3: I'm one of all those places except these dot com

1468
01:07:10,920 --> 01:07:14,600
Speaker 3: I'm Blueberg dot com slash Opinion, but Insta.

1469
01:07:15,400 --> 01:07:18,000
Speaker 1: And I must recommend both of their work. Both of

1470
01:07:18,040 --> 01:07:20,840
Speaker 1: you are to my favorite right, no, like, I'm actually

1471
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,240
Speaker 1: so excited I got this one of my favorite episodes recorded.

1472
01:07:23,280 --> 01:07:25,600
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna be honest. I am ed Zeitron. You

1473
01:07:25,600 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 1: can find me on the podcast The Better Offline. You

1474
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:31,080
Speaker 1: go Better offline dot com, click newsletter, click all this stuff,

1475
01:07:31,760 --> 01:07:34,480
Speaker 1: get the challenge coin if you want, but really, just

1476
01:07:34,520 --> 01:07:36,320
Speaker 1: I'm so grateful to have all of you, love you all,

1477
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:38,000
Speaker 1: Thank you for listening, and then you can hear it

1478
01:07:38,040 --> 01:07:39,920
Speaker 1: say thank you for listening again. I'm going to get

1479
01:07:39,960 --> 01:07:42,520
Speaker 1: an email. I'm going to ignore it. I'll respond thank

1480
01:07:42,520 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 1: you for listening, but thank you for listening. Thank you

1481
01:07:52,720 --> 01:07:55,440
Speaker 1: for listening to Better Offline. The editor and composer of

1482
01:07:55,480 --> 01:07:58,440
Speaker 1: the Better Offline theme song is Metasowski. You can check

1483
01:07:58,440 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 1: out more of his music and audio project at Mattasowski

1484
01:08:01,440 --> 01:08:04,960
Speaker 1: dot com m A T T O S O W

1485
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:08,600
Speaker 1: s ki dot com. You can email me at easy

1486
01:08:08,680 --> 01:08:11,320
Speaker 1: at Better offline dot com, or visit Better Offline dot

1487
01:08:11,320 --> 01:08:13,960
Speaker 1: com to find more podcast links and of course, my newsletter.

1488
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:16,840
Speaker 1: I also really recommend you go to chat dot Where's

1489
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: youreaed dot at to visit the discord and go to

1490
01:08:19,400 --> 01:08:22,800
Speaker 1: our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit. Thank

1491
01:08:22,800 --> 01:08:23,920
Speaker 1: you so much for listening.

1492
01:08:24,760 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 2: Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.

1493
01:08:27,400 --> 01:08:30,240
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1494
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:33,639
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1495
01:08:33,680 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.