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Speaker 1: Literally the day I started journaling, I haven't stopped, and

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Speaker 1: everything changed because I allow creativity back into my life,

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Speaker 1: shame free. I think so many of us are creating,

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Speaker 1: but we've got so much shame around it. We're not

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Speaker 1: good enough, it's not making enough money.

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Speaker 2: My parents, you.

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Speaker 1: Know, really think I should give it up. There's so

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Speaker 1: many narratives that come with creativity. So many of us

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Speaker 1: are just being held back, kept small. I want you

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Speaker 1: to find out what happens when you take perfectionism out

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Speaker 1: of the equation and you just let yourself create.

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Speaker 2: The number one health and wellness podcast.

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Speaker 3: Stay Shetdy Jay, Sheddy Day, shed Hey everyone, Welcome back

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Speaker 3: to on Purpose, the place you come to to become

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Speaker 3: a happier, healthier and more healed. Today's guest is someone

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Speaker 3: I've been wanting to sit down with for so long.

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Speaker 3: I have stalked her on Instagram, shared a ton of

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Speaker 3: her stuff, showed her work to so many of my

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Speaker 3: friends and family members because it has deeply impacted me.

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Speaker 3: It's a page that I turned to when I feel

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Speaker 3: like I need someone to give me a bit of guy,

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Speaker 3: give me a steer, give me a direction to think

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Speaker 3: in And I can't wait to introduce her to all

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Speaker 3: of you. I'm speaking about author, artist, creative, and poet

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Speaker 3: and so much more. Amy McNee, Please welcome to On

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Speaker 3: Purpose Amy. Amy. It is so great to have you here.

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Speaker 3: I'm such a huge fan and I can't wait for

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Speaker 3: your new book. We need your art. I think it's

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Speaker 3: going to be life changing for so many budding creatives,

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Speaker 3: people are just starting out, up and coming, and at

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Speaker 3: the same time established creatives who are trying to rediscover themselves. So,

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Speaker 3: as a fan, thank you for being on the show

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Speaker 3: and so excited to have this conversation.

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Speaker 1: Jay, I'm so grateful. I'm grateful for your art. I'm

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Speaker 1: so grateful that you make the things that you do,

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Speaker 1: and I'm just very excited to be here.

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Speaker 3: I'm trying to remember when I first came across your work,

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Speaker 3: and I can't remember the exact moment, but I remember

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Speaker 3: the feeling I had of swiping through reading some of

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Speaker 3: your work. You were holding up your pieces of board

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Speaker 3: or card, and you know, with your thick marker handwriting,

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Speaker 3: and I was reading it and thinking to myself, how

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Speaker 3: can someone be saying things that are so sometimes difficult, uncomfortable,

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Speaker 3: hard to say, and hard to hear, but doing it

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Speaker 3: in a way that was so clear and so powerful.

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Speaker 3: And I wanted to start off by asking you how

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Speaker 3: do you see people? Are people born creative or can

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Speaker 3: people become creative? And is everyone in some way creative?

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Speaker 3: Because I think a lot of people listening right now

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Speaker 3: are thinking, Jade, this episode isn't for me. I'm not creative,

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Speaker 3: I'm not an artist. What do I do?

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Speaker 1: I know when I say, and I say it a lot,

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Speaker 1: I say we need your art, and I worry about

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Speaker 1: the amount of people who are like, oh, not my art.

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Speaker 1: But I'm like your art, and I think we have

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Speaker 1: a real We can really pedestal the term art as

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Speaker 1: to what it is, and we think it's, oh, it's

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Speaker 1: fine art, or oh it has to be photography or

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Speaker 1: a certain type of art. But art comes in so

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Speaker 1: many different shapes and forms, and we all have a

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Speaker 1: capability and a desire to create. It's just that it

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Speaker 1: looks different for all of us. So when I say

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Speaker 1: we need your art, like, I mean we need your

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Speaker 1: art like we all have a drive and a desire

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Speaker 1: to make stuff. It's so innate, it's so human. So

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Speaker 1: I think we really need to take art off the pedestal.

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Speaker 1: It's not just for fine arts, although obviously it is,

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Speaker 1: but it's this. It's podcasting, it's you know, watercolors, it's writing,

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Speaker 1: it's planting, it's gardening.

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Speaker 3: It's makeup tutorials.

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Speaker 1: It's makeup tutorials, it's previews, it's cooking. Like creativity like

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Speaker 1: sinks into all aspects of our lives and we all

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Speaker 1: have a thirst for it. And so when I say

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Speaker 1: we need your art, I'm talking about you.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And I love that you are broadening the definition

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Speaker 3: of art. Yeah, because I think you're so right. Like

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Speaker 3: growing up, I'm not. I wasn't good at drawing, yeah,

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Speaker 3: and so I always thought I was an artistic Yet

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Speaker 3: it was so funny. I remember when I was finishing

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Speaker 3: primary school, elementary school, and I remember we did this

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Speaker 3: for flection exercise, and it was like, what's your favorite

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Speaker 3: subject and what's your worst subject? And I put my

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Speaker 3: favorite subject being math because I thought I was a geek,

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Speaker 3: but I wasn't. And then I wrote down my worst

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Speaker 3: subject was art. And then when I went to secondary school,

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Speaker 3: high school, and when I finished, if you asked me

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Speaker 3: what my favorite subject was, it was art. And if

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Speaker 3: you asked me what my least favorite subject was. It

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Speaker 3: was math because I had an art teacher called mister

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Speaker 3: Buckerridge at Q Boys School in Barnet that expanded the

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Speaker 3: definition of art from day one. And it became about color,

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Speaker 3: It became about juxtaposition, It became about meaning. It became

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Speaker 3: about college. It became about imagery, It became about my passions.

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Speaker 3: It became about all these other things. And I then

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Speaker 3: made him feel really upset because I sold out and

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Speaker 3: didn't study art at university, even though I.

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Speaker 2: Became in so many ways. You have studied art, you know,

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Speaker 2: like you kept that going in there, but it was

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Speaker 2: subject to be life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but you've brought in that definition for everyone, and

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Speaker 3: I think that's so needed because you are right. Podcasting

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Speaker 3: is art, writing is art, Cooking is art.

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Speaker 1: Or the way we dress, you know, the way we

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Speaker 1: express like you can't not create art, And I think

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Speaker 1: we need to reclaim that word for ourselves. It is

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Speaker 1: mine and you are an artist in some way, shape

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Speaker 1: or form.

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Speaker 3: What happens when we stifle ourselves? So what happens when

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Speaker 3: you hold back? Sometimes today people even know they're artistic,

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Speaker 3: maybe they even had a little skill when they were younger.

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Speaker 3: Maybe they were passionate, maybe even now in their spare time,

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Speaker 3: but they're blocking themselves. They're stifling themselves because they've heard

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Speaker 3: things like, well, that won't get you a career, that

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Speaker 3: won't pay the bills, that's not going to make you money,

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Speaker 3: that's not a real job. And by the way, I

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Speaker 3: heard all those things growing up. So it feels very

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Speaker 3: familiar to me what happens to us when we stifle

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Speaker 3: ourselves and block ourselves.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, if you will indulge me, I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you a bit of my story because I feel like

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Speaker 1: and exactly as you said, you've experienced this, Like all

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do was tell stories, Like it's all

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Speaker 1: I wanted to do, whether it was through acting or writing,

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Speaker 1: I just felt like driven to express myself through storytelling.

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Speaker 1: And once I left school, I was like, Okay, I'm

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Speaker 1: going to take this seriously, like I really want to

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Speaker 1: commit to this. And you know, from the age of

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Speaker 1: eighteen to the age of like, you know, really recently,

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Speaker 1: like I was inundated with it's childlike, it's irresponsible, it's

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Speaker 1: foolish to take the creative arts seriously, and I ended

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Speaker 1: up with severe depression. I was so low because I

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Speaker 1: was so embarrassed by this extraordinarily strong desire to tell stories,

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Speaker 1: like I just wanted to tell stories, and I felt

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Speaker 1: so ashamed about it, and I felt like I couldn't

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Speaker 1: be a real adult, I couldn't grow, and so I

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Speaker 1: withheld my creativity and I felt incredible amounts of shame

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Speaker 1: and I felt so embarrassed, and I didn't want to

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Speaker 1: talk about it with anybody, and it resulted in me

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Speaker 1: being ridiculously depressed. I was so low, I had such

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Speaker 1: low affect, I had no motivation. So it was like

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Speaker 1: a war going on inside me. And half of myself

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Speaker 1: was like, I have to tell stories, like I am

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Speaker 1: here to create, to make art and to impact the

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Speaker 1: world with my art. And then the other half of

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Speaker 1: me was like, this is so irresponsible. Why can't you

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Speaker 1: be a real adult, Why can't you just grow up,

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Speaker 1: like get a real job, And that duality and that

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Speaker 1: war within me left me like broken. And it wasn't

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Speaker 1: until I started journaling and I started seeing the stories

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Speaker 1: that I was telling myself, and I was like this,

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Speaker 1: I cannot live this way, and so I started rewriting

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Speaker 1: them like with my pen on the pages of my

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Speaker 1: journal and I allowed art back into my life, like

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Speaker 1: shame free art, and like since literally the day I

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Speaker 1: started journaling, I haven't stopped and everything changed because I

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Speaker 1: allowed creativity back into my life. Shame free.

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Speaker 3: Wow, I love that. I love this and a shame

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Speaker 3: free art.

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Speaker 2: It's so important.

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Speaker 1: I think so many of us are creating, but we've

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Speaker 1: got so much shame around it. We're not good enough,

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Speaker 1: it's not making enough money. My parents, you know, really

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Speaker 1: think I should give it up. There's so many narratives

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Speaker 1: that come with creativity, and so many of us are

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Speaker 1: just being held back, kept small.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we need shame free art.

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Speaker 3: How did you get the courage to allow art back in?

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Speaker 3: Especially when you're in a dark place like you're saying

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Speaker 3: you're experiencing depression, You're hearing all this negativity around you

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Speaker 3: about the relevance of your art and the value of

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Speaker 3: your art. How do you in that place go, I'm

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Speaker 3: going to turn to art because it's the one thing

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Speaker 3: that's been villainized and made to seem negative.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it was through journally. It was a complete narrative shift.

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Speaker 1: So I would write out the stories that I was

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Speaker 1: telling myself. So why can't you get a real job.

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Speaker 1: Why do you think this is possible? This is so embarrassing.

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Speaker 1: You've got hundreds of rejection letters from publishers. No one's

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Speaker 1: listening to you. And then I would write it all

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Speaker 1: out so I could witness the stories I was telling myself,

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Speaker 1: like I needed to see the amount of shame I

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Speaker 1: was in because and it would shock me, like I

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Speaker 1: would reread what I was writing and I was like,

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Speaker 1: my brain is like a place of just like violence

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Speaker 1: and vitriol, like I'm speaking so terribly to myself and

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Speaker 1: to my inner artist. And then at the end of

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Speaker 1: my journaling session, I would be like, Okay, well, how

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Speaker 1: do I want to sound? And I call it mothering myself.

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Speaker 1: It's like a reparenting exercise. And I would just be like,

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Speaker 1: you know what, and I'd treat myself like a baby,

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Speaker 1: and I'd be like, baby.

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Speaker 2: Girl, you are here to tell stories.

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Speaker 1: I am so proud of you. I'm proud of the

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Speaker 1: way that you are showing up. I am proud of

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Speaker 1: the way that you were rebelling against society's expectation. You

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Speaker 1: are being put on this earth to make art, to create,

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Speaker 1: and I'm so proud of.

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Speaker 2: What you're doing.

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Speaker 1: And so no matter how much I like spewed out

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Speaker 1: crap and there was so much in a critic rubbish

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Speaker 1: on the pages, I always ended it with this voice

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Speaker 1: that was like, Okay, but I'm actually really proud of you.

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Speaker 1: You know, you are here to make art and you're

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Speaker 1: on the path. I used to tell that to myself

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Speaker 1: all the time. You're on the path, You're on the path.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, it was it was through words, which is

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Speaker 1: so appropriate, I guess for me as an author.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's so interesting that that wasn't a learned

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Speaker 3: technique or it was that just happened. Yeah, yeah, someone

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Speaker 3: that came from within. But now it's practice people can

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Speaker 3: follow through. And I love that repetition of you are

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Speaker 3: on the path, because I think that's so so true

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Speaker 3: in that we think that we're either off the path

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Speaker 3: or on the path, and we think that we're either

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Speaker 3: going in the wrong direction or the right direction, rather

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Speaker 3: than just recognizing that you're on the path either way.

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Speaker 3: And I've done this often, and I've seen a lot

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Speaker 3: of people do it where we go. You know, up

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Speaker 3: until last year, I was it was just a mess,

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Speaker 3: and then I figured it out, which basically devalues all

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Speaker 3: of that experience, all of that pain, all of that stress,

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Speaker 3: all of the amazing journey you've had that brought you

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Speaker 3: to that point that actually inspires empowers this path. But

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Speaker 3: you're like, now I'm on the right path. And so

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Speaker 3: we have this way of devaluing past experiences, even when

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Speaker 3: we say, oh, I had this light bulb moment and

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Speaker 3: then everything changed, and it's like, well, no, all of

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Speaker 3: that got you to the light bulb experience.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I love that. Jay.

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Speaker 1: Something I say to myself is that, yeah, I mean again,

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Speaker 1: I repeat it all the time. You are on the path.

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Speaker 1: You are on the path. You are on the path.

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Speaker 1: But it would have been so easy for me to say, oh,

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Speaker 1: I figured it out. Now I've got the publishing deal.

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Speaker 1: Now you know, I get to have an audience, and

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Speaker 1: now I figured it out. But I actually owe everything

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Speaker 1: to the girl that navigated silence, to the girl that

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Speaker 1: navigated rejection, to the girl that had so much shame,

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Speaker 1: Like when I think about how I got here, I

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Speaker 1: owe everything to her. And I tell that to her.

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Speaker 1: Artists all the time, because you know, so many artists

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Speaker 1: we are navigating. You know, we're sharing stuff on social media.

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Speaker 1: No one's seeing it, No one's liking it. We're, you know,

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Speaker 1: daring to put our art out for sale. No one

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Speaker 1: wants to buy it. We are learning new crafts, we're

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Speaker 1: being so vulnerable, and you, your future version of yourself,

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Speaker 1: owes everything to you for daring to be brave, for

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Speaker 1: being courageous, for taking up space even when no one

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Speaker 1: else is listening or no one else is watching, like

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Speaker 1: I right here on the J Shaddy Show. Owe everything

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Speaker 1: to the girl who was sitting at a cafe extraordinarily

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Speaker 1: depressed but saying, you know what, I'm going to dare

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Speaker 1: to write today even though nobody else wants me to write.

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Speaker 3: I love that. I so love that, because you made

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Speaker 3: me think of I remember when I started out, and

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Speaker 3: I think the first two presentations I gave pretty much

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Speaker 3: no one showed up. And then for years I was

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Speaker 3: doing events for five people, ten people, and I loved it.

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Speaker 3: And actually I was so lucky because social media kind

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Speaker 3: of kicked off a bit later than when I would

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Speaker 3: have done that, so I never even had the pressure

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Speaker 3: or the belief that more than five to ten people

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Speaker 3: could come, because maybe I'd seen twenty people in a room,

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Speaker 3: or fifty people in a room, or one hundred people

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Speaker 3: in a room, and so to me, one hundred was

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Speaker 3: a big number.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: And I was talking to someone just a couple of

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Speaker 3: days ago, and they're a creator, and they were saying, like, Jeae,

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Speaker 3: I just feel this pressure of scale, and I feel

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Speaker 3: this pressure of like, not enough people have seen my work.

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Speaker 3: And I was just thinking, you know, whether I had

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Speaker 3: five people in the room, ten people, one hundred, or

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Speaker 3: you know, whatever it is now, I was always just

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Speaker 3: happy and grateful to be with whoever was in the room,

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Speaker 3: and so now I feel that same. And I know

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Speaker 3: it's easy for me. It sounds easy for me to

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Speaker 3: say it now, and it's hard for me to reflect

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Speaker 3: back from the external view of whether people believe me

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Speaker 3: or not. But I can honestly say that I remember

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Speaker 3: just wanting to spend the whole evening with the five

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Speaker 3: people who turned up and answer their questions and share

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Speaker 3: with them insights, and it was so beautiful and valuable

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Speaker 3: and meaningful that that's what gave me the practice. It's

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Speaker 3: what gave me the ability to understand different people's challenges

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Speaker 3: and stresses, and everything that I've been able to create

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Speaker 3: here is only because of that experience. It wasn't that

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Speaker 3: I'm different now and I'm better now and I mastered something.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't that it was all part of the same path.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: We owe everything to that version of Jay, you know,

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Speaker 1: and we get to experience you now because you did

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Speaker 1: and you enjoyed and you loved doing that work earlier on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. I love that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I feel like so many people are probably listened

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Speaker 3: to this right now, going Amy J I have an idea. Yeah, Like,

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Speaker 3: I have something in my head that really makes sense,

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Speaker 3: but I'm scared to put it out there. And I'm

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Speaker 3: sure you hear this all the time, but I see

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Speaker 3: the fear of judgment and the fear of your art

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Speaker 3: being shamed, and the fear of people thinking it's silly,

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Speaker 3: not good enough, as being such a blocker for people,

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Speaker 3: And I wanted to ask you how do you help

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Speaker 3: people overcome that fear, because it seems to be the

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Speaker 3: biggest wall in the way of people and their dreams.

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Speaker 1: I mean, there's so many different ways we can look

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Speaker 1: at this. First of all, I'm so excited that you

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Speaker 1: have an idea, like this is so exciting.

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Speaker 2: Let's cherish it.

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Speaker 1: We need to take care of it because I like

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Speaker 1: that I'm really being serious, like, we need your art,

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Speaker 1: we need your expression, we need you to take up space.

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Speaker 1: There are people out there in the world who need

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Speaker 1: what you have to create, and if you choose to

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Speaker 1: withhold it, they will never get to experience it. Like

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Speaker 1: you are a one time phenomenon that will never ever

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Speaker 1: be seen again. And if you choose not to take

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Speaker 1: action on this idea, then that's done. That idea is

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Speaker 1: done eternally, will never be seen. And again, I just

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Speaker 1: want to really enforce that because it can be so

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Speaker 1: easy to be so flippant, Oh, it's just an idea.

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Speaker 1: It was never going to go anywhere. These ideas are

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Speaker 1: so precious and we need to take care of them.

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Speaker 1: The judgment thing, misunderstanding, the oh my god, what's that

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Speaker 1: dude from high school going to think of me? It

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Speaker 1: is so valid because art is so vulnerable. Creativity is

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Speaker 1: like pouring a little bit of you into an external

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Speaker 1: thing and giving it to the world. Like that's super vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: and so I want to validate that feeling of oh

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Speaker 1: my god, what will people think of me? Art is

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Speaker 1: a courageous exercise. It is so vulnerable, it is so scary,

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Speaker 1: and it's okay that we have these feelings. I think

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Speaker 1: there are several things that we can do. I think

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Speaker 1: the first one is come home to a truth, is

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Speaker 1: that you will be misunderstood and you will be judged,

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Speaker 1: and it's still worth making the art. I can't let

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Speaker 1: some random guy from high school stop me from doing

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Speaker 1: my work, and I almost did. When I decided I

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Speaker 1: wanted to really start taking up space as a writer.

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Speaker 1: I was like, Okay, I'm going to start like an Instagram.

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Speaker 1: I'm going to start sharing my words. And I was like, no,

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Speaker 1: I can't. It's so cringey. And I was like that

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Speaker 1: guy from high school, like Ben from high school, or

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Speaker 1: like I kept thinking of these random people, They're going

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Speaker 1: to see me and they're going to be like, who

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Speaker 1: does she think she is? And it stopped me in

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Speaker 1: my tracks for ages. And I just love that version

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Speaker 1: of myself because she was so brave and she decided, no,

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Speaker 1: I want this life. I want to tell stories. And

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Speaker 1: so I started inspired to write, started my Instagram and

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Speaker 1: I blocked every single person I could find, and I

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Speaker 1: sat there for hours being like they would stop me

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Speaker 1: showing up, they would stop me showing up. And I

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Speaker 1: created a cocoon for myself to become the artist that

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Speaker 1: I needed to be, And so I think, first of all,

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Speaker 1: we do need to understand that we will be misunderstood,

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Speaker 1: and that is safe to be misunderstood. But second of

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Speaker 1: all that we can take precautions to make sure that

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Speaker 1: we are that we have spaces to create and that

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Speaker 1: feel as safe as possible. But creation itself will never

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Speaker 1: be safe. It's inherently risky, and that's why it's inherently rewarding.

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Speaker 3: I love that. I love that you actually had a

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Speaker 3: physical way I was having a block, and I think

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Speaker 3: we don't think about it that way. Sometimes we think

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Speaker 3: that we should have got over that feeling first, like

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Speaker 3: I should be over the fact that my parents think

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Speaker 3: this is a bad idea before I create, and it's like, well, no,

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Speaker 3: you're probably gonna have to create while they think it's about.

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Speaker 2: It my good.

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Speaker 1: We can't become like fully actualized before we create art.

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Speaker 1: And art's going to reveal all of your lightness but

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Speaker 1: also a lot of your darkness. So there's going to

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Speaker 1: be so many things that come up as you dare

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Speaker 1: to do the brave thing and create stuff, like you're

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Speaker 1: going to see a lot of narratives you're going to

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Speaker 1: see a lot of insecurities because again, making art so vulnerable,

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Speaker 1: you're just going to see a lot of the hard

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Speaker 1: things within you and you can't wait till they're healed

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Speaker 1: to begin creating. So yeah, do what you need to do.

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Speaker 1: And for me, I needed to block every single person

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Speaker 1: I could think of, and now everyone's unblocked. But I

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Speaker 1: needed that space away from eyes. I didn't want their

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Speaker 1: perception of who they thought I was to interrupt my

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Speaker 1: journey of who I was becoming, and so I claimed

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Speaker 1: space for myself. And I invite artists to, however, look

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Speaker 1: put boundaries in place so that you can do this

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Speaker 1: work and you can feel as safe as possible. And no,

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Speaker 1: you can't protect yourself entirely, but you can do a

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Speaker 1: little bit so that you've you know, feel a little

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Speaker 1: more comfortible and more cozy as you do the brave

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Speaker 1: thing and start you know, making some ideas.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel some of us have this feeling of

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Speaker 3: I wish the people who loved me believed in me.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah right, And I feel as artists, because you

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Speaker 3: can have a softer heart, you're more empathetic, you're more

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Speaker 3: in tune with some of these emotions and feelings. There's

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Speaker 3: a sense of why don't you believe in me? And

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Speaker 3: if you believed in me, I could do it. And

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Speaker 3: if you believed in me, then I might get there.

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Speaker 3: And if you believed in me, then I'd feel better

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Speaker 3: about it. How do you let go of those kind

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Speaker 3: of expectations that we often have of the people around us.

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Speaker 3: There's a heartful part of that, but really it's a

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Speaker 3: hurtful part because it stops you from starting.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's so hard.

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Speaker 1: I speak to so many creatives who's closest people aren't

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Speaker 1: backing them. I think when we can admit to art,

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Speaker 1: we often trigger a lot of people, and we trigger

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Speaker 1: the artist within them that they squashed down and that

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Speaker 1: they repressed. And so when we say, oh, I'm actually

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Speaker 1: being incredibly brave and I've decided to write a book,

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Speaker 1: we trigger a little part in them that says, well,

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Speaker 1: I never let myself write a book. I thought you

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Speaker 1: needed permission to write a book, and here you are

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Speaker 1: just taking up space writing a book. And I don't

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Speaker 1: know that they necessarily know that that's what's happening. But

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Speaker 1: I feel like when we commit to art, a lot

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Speaker 1: of people find that confronting, and so that's important for

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Speaker 1: us to realize, is it's not us. It's often there

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Speaker 1: in a child that just hasn't had a chance to

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Speaker 1: express ourselves because we don't live in a world that

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Speaker 1: really encourages art, that encourages creative expression. It's something to

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Speaker 1: do when you're young, and it's something to do when

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Speaker 1: you're retired, and when we dare to do it now,

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Speaker 1: you know, in like the middle of life, like I

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Speaker 1: think it's people are like, oh, well, who gave you

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Speaker 1: permission to do that? And it's like, well, I did.

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Speaker 1: And a huge part of my journey's being permission giving.

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Speaker 1: Like I thought I needed to wait for permission for

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Speaker 1: the gatekeepers from publishers. I thought I needed some I

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Speaker 1: want to say, you are now allowed to make art.

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00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 1: One of the biggest revelations, and again it came through journaling,

433
00:20:05,359 --> 00:20:07,600
Speaker 1: was well, no, I'm just going to give myself permission.

434
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:09,600
Speaker 1: And I didn't need it through my parents, I didn't

435
00:20:09,600 --> 00:20:12,119
Speaker 1: need it for my friends. I just needed to literally

436
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,639
Speaker 1: be like, I give myself permission to take this seriously,

437
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,120
Speaker 1: and it was the most profound permission slip I could

438
00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:18,680
Speaker 1: have ever given myself.

439
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:18,960
Speaker 2: Ever.

440
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:24,320
Speaker 3: I remember that as well for myself when I started

441
00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 3: to create videos eight years ago, and it was that

442
00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,639
Speaker 3: same sense of feeling that before I did that, I

443
00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:34,720
Speaker 3: was asking people to give me a job to do

444
00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:36,879
Speaker 3: what I wanted to do, and I knew there wouldn't

445
00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 3: be an exact job for it, but I was even

446
00:20:39,320 --> 00:20:42,040
Speaker 3: willing to sacrifice my art to take on a job

447
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:46,159
Speaker 3: that might evolve into the artistic version of that. And

448
00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:49,400
Speaker 3: so I remember pitching myself as a trainee video producer

449
00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:53,160
Speaker 3: lots of companies in London and being turned down because

450
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:56,520
Speaker 3: I didn't do communications at college or I didn't do

451
00:20:56,640 --> 00:21:00,720
Speaker 3: video production at college at university, and then same thing

452
00:21:00,800 --> 00:21:03,320
Speaker 3: with trying to meet editors of magazines and say oh,

453
00:21:03,320 --> 00:21:06,520
Speaker 3: maybe I can get in this way and again getting rejections.

454
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,840
Speaker 3: And then it was actually Raj who messaged me. I

455
00:21:09,840 --> 00:21:12,800
Speaker 3: think it was like gosh, like twenty fifteen Christmas time,

456
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 3: and he was like, yeah, you've been giving a lot

457
00:21:14,520 --> 00:21:16,359
Speaker 3: of talks. We should get out there and just you know,

458
00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 3: maybe we should record some stuff. And I was like,

459
00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,320
Speaker 3: I don't know, I haven't really made a video before.

460
00:21:20,359 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 3: And I was like I haven't really got any scripts,

461
00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,199
Speaker 3: and he was like, let's figure it out and so

462
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 3: I scribbled some stuff down that I've been thinking about,

463
00:21:26,080 --> 00:21:27,879
Speaker 3: and then we just went out there and we shot

464
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,840
Speaker 3: these four videos and then we released them later on YouTube.

465
00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,359
Speaker 3: And it was the best feeling in the world, like

466
00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:38,200
Speaker 3: I've never I wish I could bottle up that feeling

467
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:40,119
Speaker 3: and give it to other people, And well, well you

468
00:21:40,160 --> 00:21:42,000
Speaker 3: can with the work you're doing. Your book is that

469
00:21:42,800 --> 00:21:44,320
Speaker 3: we need your art. That's what the book is going

470
00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:45,879
Speaker 3: to do for people. It's going to give people that

471
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 3: feeling of freedom. Yeah, And it was the first time

472
00:21:48,160 --> 00:21:50,879
Speaker 3: I felt free because I'd constantly been waiting for someone

473
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,440
Speaker 3: to give me a job, give me a title, give

474
00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,600
Speaker 3: me a position, give me an opportunity and a break.

475
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,359
Speaker 3: And you're so right, Like, as an artist, you're constantly

476
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,520
Speaker 3: waiting for someone to say, yes, your art is valid,

477
00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:06,120
Speaker 3: it's valuable. And it's almost like, how do you get

478
00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 3: to a point where I want to ask you this?

479
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,720
Speaker 3: Because we almost oscillate between two ideologies, which is like,

480
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 3: you should just be happy making art and you shouldn't

481
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,359
Speaker 3: want anyone to see it, and then on the other end,

482
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,119
Speaker 3: it's like, well, you have to make sure people see it,

483
00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 3: otherwise what's the point of making it, and so people

484
00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:26,840
Speaker 3: get scared. And this is partly why I love your work,

485
00:22:26,880 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 3: because I think it really gets into the nuance of that. Yeah,

486
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:32,479
Speaker 3: there's this feeling of like, well, it's weird to promote yourself,

487
00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 3: so I shouldn't promote myself. But then no one sees

488
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 3: my art, and then I'm a starving artist. But maybe

489
00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:40,439
Speaker 3: that's my badge of honor and that's what makes me

490
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:42,920
Speaker 3: credible and valuable. And then there's the other side of it.

491
00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 3: I'm just gonna sell out and make what everyone else

492
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 3: wants going to make. I'm gonna go with the clickbait

493
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:49,159
Speaker 3: trends and I'm going to do whatever it takes. But

494
00:22:49,200 --> 00:22:50,879
Speaker 3: then I don't really like myself at the end of

495
00:22:50,920 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 3: the day because that's not what I set out to do.

496
00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:56,880
Speaker 3: How do you make sense of that when you're starting

497
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:59,240
Speaker 3: in the beginning and you're like, gosh, I don't know

498
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 3: which way to go and how to figure it out?

499
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 3: How do you help people think about that spectrum before

500
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,000
Speaker 3: we dive into the next moment, let's hear from our

501
00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,400
Speaker 3: sponsors and back to our episode.

502
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,000
Speaker 2: This is such a nuanced conversation.

503
00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,360
Speaker 1: I'm so glad you said that, because it is so complicated,

504
00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,840
Speaker 1: and it's so very valid to want to just make

505
00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:18,439
Speaker 1: art for art's sake, to just want to play and create.

506
00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:20,480
Speaker 1: In fact, I think that's an imperative part of every

507
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: artist journey, like have fun, Like that's so important for us.

508
00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 1: But there are so many narratives around you know, how

509
00:23:28,560 --> 00:23:30,439
Speaker 1: did you art properly? And how you're meant to be

510
00:23:30,480 --> 00:23:32,520
Speaker 1: an artist and you should make a certain amount of

511
00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,160
Speaker 1: money and you should be showing up in this way.

512
00:23:34,200 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: There are so many stories that I think mean that

513
00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: we start feeling if it can be incredibly stressful. Being

514
00:23:39,560 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: an artist on social media is so stressful. How do

515
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:43,600
Speaker 1: I put myself out there? How am I meant to

516
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,440
Speaker 1: promote myself? Should I want to promote myself or should

517
00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,520
Speaker 1: this be a private practice. I think this is an

518
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:51,560
Speaker 1: intensely personal thing that you need to sit with and

519
00:23:51,560 --> 00:23:54,920
Speaker 1: decide where you're at. But for me, my calling is

520
00:23:54,960 --> 00:23:59,760
Speaker 1: to be seen and I love supporting artists who want

521
00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:01,840
Speaker 1: to be and I think there's a weird amount of

522
00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 1: shame that comes from a creative who wants attention for

523
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: their art. And so my new thing at the moment

524
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,960
Speaker 1: is to say I create art for the attention because

525
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:12,239
Speaker 1: I create art to connect with people, and I think

526
00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 1: a lot of artists do like we create because we

527
00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,440
Speaker 1: want to show you, and it's a really beautiful thing

528
00:24:17,480 --> 00:24:19,800
Speaker 1: to do, to make art and say here do you

529
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:20,760
Speaker 1: see yourself in this?

530
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: Like I made this? What do you? How do you

531
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:23,320
Speaker 2: find it?

532
00:24:23,720 --> 00:24:28,000
Speaker 1: And so I want to really validate creators who are

533
00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:30,879
Speaker 1: creating stuff because they want to connect. I think we

534
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:33,280
Speaker 1: get this other story that is again a very valid

535
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: story that says you should only want to make art

536
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:38,920
Speaker 1: for yourself. Like Rick Rubin talks about this a lot,

537
00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: and I love what he's saying, because if we do

538
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:44,520
Speaker 1: get too focused on the external and we start thinking, Okay,

539
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 1: well I'm going to make art only for other people,

540
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 1: can really muddy the waters. We get very confused and

541
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,719
Speaker 1: we lose our internal compass and what it is we

542
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: want to create. But I think there's this balance to

543
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: be struck because yes, we have to love the process,

544
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:01,080
Speaker 1: we have to love the act of art creating. But

545
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: at the same time, it's okay to want to connect

546
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,439
Speaker 1: with other people. It's okay to want to have a

547
00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:07,680
Speaker 1: relationship with audience, it's okay to want to be seen.

548
00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:11,439
Speaker 1: It is so human to want to be seen, and

549
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 1: I want artists to feel very validated. That that is

550
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: a beautiful and normal, almost holy part of this. I

551
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 1: love artists that are out there asking people, hey, can

552
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: you witness me? I made this thing? Will you see me?

553
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:24,080
Speaker 1: Like it just sets me Alie. I'm like, yeah, I

554
00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:25,560
Speaker 1: do want to look at you. I want to see

555
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: I want to give you my attention.

556
00:25:27,240 --> 00:25:29,879
Speaker 3: Yeah. And you're so right that so many artists, and

557
00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: I know I carry this at the beginning. There's a

558
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 3: sense of shame and guilt in well, am I less

559
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 3: than if I want to be seen? Am I? Am

560
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,159
Speaker 3: I doing something wrong? If I want my art to

561
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 3: connect with people? Am I? And I agree with you

562
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 3: that that can be such an excuse for us to

563
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 3: not create and for us to not make or we create,

564
00:25:52,400 --> 00:25:55,320
Speaker 3: but then we play small and we hide and we

565
00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 3: kind of keep our work very very separate because we

566
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:01,760
Speaker 3: want to or we say things like that where we say, oh, yeah,

567
00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 3: I mean you know, I don't really care about followers.

568
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,320
Speaker 3: I don't really care about how many likes it gets,

569
00:26:06,359 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 3: and inside it's eating us as opposed to accepting and saying, well,

570
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 3: maybe I do care and I don't care. There's two

571
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:16,639
Speaker 3: sides in me, and I think I've always I feel

572
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:19,240
Speaker 3: that balance that you speak of is so true, because

573
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 3: there's a part of me that cares about everyone listening

574
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 3: to this podcast right now because I want to, because

575
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:26,639
Speaker 3: I want to have a connection. I want to create

576
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:29,159
Speaker 3: something of value for you that benefits your life and

577
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:30,800
Speaker 3: changes your life. And you'll listen to this and it

578
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 3: will be the reason three years from now, you'll say

579
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 3: I listened to that episode with Amy and I started creating,

580
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,640
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden, I'm writing a book and

581
00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,439
Speaker 3: my art's in a gallery or whatever it may be

582
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:42,439
Speaker 3: for you. I want that feeling. I do, and at

583
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,280
Speaker 3: the same time, I don't care because I just want

584
00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,280
Speaker 3: to have a conversation with Amy, and so both of

585
00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:49,919
Speaker 3: those things are true. But when we start denying parts

586
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,679
Speaker 3: of ourselves, it's almost like we start lying internally to ourselves.

587
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:56,240
Speaker 3: And when you do that, you then really disconnect.

588
00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 1: There is such a duality to being a human being,

589
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: and especially in being a creative and I love that,

590
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:05,239
Speaker 1: like I care about my art impacting people, but I

591
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 1: also want to make sure that I'm making art that

592
00:27:08,119 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 1: I want to make, and that I'm not making art

593
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: just for an audience, and these two things can be

594
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:15,080
Speaker 1: true at once, and we can honor both the fact that, yeah,

595
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:17,520
Speaker 1: I make art for the attention, and I also make.

596
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 2: Art because I just love to tell stories.

597
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 1: These things are true at one time, and we got

598
00:27:21,920 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 1: to honor both those parts of ourselves.

599
00:27:24,000 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 3: You've done a lot of different jobs on the way here.

600
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 3: I believe it was like you were a waitress at

601
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 3: one point. Yeah, you were a bad trainer. You don't

602
00:27:32,840 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 3: financial planning, I want to hear.

603
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: I wouldn't say I did financial planning. I was a

604
00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,879
Speaker 1: personal assistant, a financial planner, so I was financial adjacent.

605
00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: Terrible at that job too.

606
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 3: But I want to hear about that journey because I

607
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 3: think that's what I find fascinating about artists. Like, as

608
00:27:49,040 --> 00:27:51,120
Speaker 3: an artist, you're always having to pay the bills, finding

609
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,439
Speaker 3: a way to solve this until your art becomes you know,

610
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 3: enough quote anyone who's I'm doing air quotes next to

611
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 3: enough to be RECOGNI eyes, et cetera. Walk me through

612
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:05,320
Speaker 3: that part of your life where you're like doing things

613
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:07,200
Speaker 3: that keep you afloat and at the same time trying

614
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 3: to keep your art alive. What was that like? Because

615
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 3: I think a lot of people listening right now. They're

616
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 3: maybe working a twelve hour job a day, they're working

617
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 3: three jobs a day just to survive. But they're like

618
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 3: they've got this skill and art, and really when they

619
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 3: get home at the end of the day, they just

620
00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 3: want to switch on a TV show and escape and

621
00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 3: switch out, Like how did you keep both alive when

622
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 3: it wasn't your main thing?

623
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean one of the things that makes me

624
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: angriest is how much life robs us of our art time.

625
00:28:33,760 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: Like I want so many of us to have the time,

626
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: the energy, particularly to come home and to create, but

627
00:28:38,520 --> 00:28:40,560
Speaker 1: for so many of us, it's just it's not possible.

628
00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:45,640
Speaker 1: And balancing a regular work and a creative life is hard.

629
00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: And I really want to validate any creative who's navigating this,

630
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 1: because I think we get a bit of the hustle

631
00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: narrative or it's like just make it work. It is

632
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: hard to balance your creativity and your real life job

633
00:28:57,760 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: and you know, caretaking and being a kid and just

634
00:28:59,840 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: be an adult in general. Like I can, it's huge

635
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 1: and I really struggled with it. I was waitressing because

636
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:08,600
Speaker 1: I was doing all these little jobs because I was

637
00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:10,880
Speaker 1: trying to fit art around them, so I was waitressing

638
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 1: because I could then I could work after three pm.

639
00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: Maybe I was a personal trainer because I'll train clients

640
00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:17,920
Speaker 1: in the morning and the evening, and I'd try and

641
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:19,200
Speaker 1: write in the middle of the day. Like I was

642
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,760
Speaker 1: trying to choose jobs that would work for me, but

643
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:25,640
Speaker 1: it was exhausting, and especially because these jobs were so

644
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: like the antithesis of amy, like I'm not made to

645
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: serve people coffee. I can't hold the skim milk situation

646
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 1: in my head, like I don't care, so I don't

647
00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 1: pay attention, so I'm not a very good waitress. I'm

648
00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: exhausted by the end of my shift. Then I get

649
00:29:40,000 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: home to my writing and I think, okay, well I

650
00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: got to write two to three thousand words. This is

651
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: too much. And so I would let myself down. I

652
00:29:48,760 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 1: would feel like I betrayed myself, and I would get

653
00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: in patterns of constantly feeling like I've betrayed my inner artist,

654
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 1: I betrayed my dreams. I can never reach up to

655
00:29:57,760 --> 00:29:59,880
Speaker 1: this level. And I think I see it all the time,

656
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 1: like artists are like, Okay, because I didn't write it

657
00:30:02,600 --> 00:30:04,520
Speaker 1: all this week, I'm going to weekend, I'm going to

658
00:30:04,600 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: do I'm very biased to writers, but any sort of creating,

659
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to create for like six hours to make

660
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: up for it, and then they can't do it because

661
00:30:10,920 --> 00:30:13,480
Speaker 1: they're exhausted, and then in this pattern of self betrayal

662
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: and they start not trusting themselves that they're going to

663
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,400
Speaker 1: follow through. But I had a real breakthrough when I

664
00:30:20,440 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 1: decided that I was only going to write three hundred

665
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,360
Speaker 1: to five hundred words a day, just baby steps, small steps.

666
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,760
Speaker 1: I realized that that was a promise I could keep.

667
00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,440
Speaker 1: Three hundred words could be done in like twenty minutes,

668
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 1: fifteen minutes. They could be crap. It was another big thing.

669
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:38,040
Speaker 1: I think we'd demand huge amounts of time for our

670
00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 1: art when we're already exhausted, and we're like, and they

671
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:44,640
Speaker 1: better be perfect. It's so unfair, so unfair, and also

672
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,360
Speaker 1: it's a recipe for absolute disaster, and you're not going

673
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: to be able to finish your creative projects because these

674
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 1: working conditions are horrendous. So it was three hundred shitty

675
00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 1: words was my bare minimum. And I also had a

676
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: bare maximum so that I couldn't keep going so I

677
00:30:57,800 --> 00:30:59,840
Speaker 1: could contain my energy, so I wasn't allowed to write

678
00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,320
Speaker 1: more than a thousand words, and that's how I wrote

679
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 1: my books. That's how I still write my books. Three

680
00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 1: hundred to five hundred words a day, and it's so doable.

681
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 1: And when you come home from an absolutely hectic day,

682
00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: you can say, okay, three hundred words, three hundred potentially

683
00:31:15,840 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 1: crappy words, or ten minutes on the guitar, or I

684
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: want to take three pictures with my iPhone, you know,

685
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:26,520
Speaker 1: whatever it is. It's just really small, really doable, and

686
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: then you start accumulating wins. So if you've done that

687
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,680
Speaker 1: like three four times a week, you're like, Okay, maybe

688
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: I could do that again next week. And by the

689
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,080
Speaker 1: you know, end of the year, you have a portfolio

690
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: of your creations and you've become you know, you've improved

691
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: as an artist. You've got something to show for yourself.

692
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: Some of you will have a finished book if you've

693
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:46,680
Speaker 1: chosen to write. We ignore the magic of the baby

694
00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: steps so frequently because I think we're just such a

695
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: go all in or go home culture.

696
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that you're so right that, you know, go

697
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,760
Speaker 3: all in or go home culture. Just it blocks us

698
00:31:58,760 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 3: the most because it's also this comes from like a

699
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 3: bit of ego where it's like I want to be

700
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,360
Speaker 3: the best of this, like this has to be incredible,

701
00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 3: and it's almost like, well, maybe I'm not going to

702
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 3: be the best of this the first time I try,

703
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 3: all for the first year, or maybe for the first

704
00:32:11,200 --> 00:32:14,040
Speaker 3: ten years, and that's okay, because I'm just trying and

705
00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,160
Speaker 3: I'm just learning. But that requires a sense of detachment

706
00:32:17,200 --> 00:32:20,560
Speaker 3: and egolesseners to be like it's okay to make bad

707
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 3: stuff and I know you have the biggest proponent of

708
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 3: this shitty art. Yeah, and that's really been validating for me,

709
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: Like every time I read you say something like that

710
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,760
Speaker 3: or write something like yes, thank you Amy for giving

711
00:32:32,800 --> 00:32:35,480
Speaker 3: me a permission. Walk me through how we because I

712
00:32:35,480 --> 00:32:39,520
Speaker 3: think we oscillate between procrastination and perfectionism, and so this

713
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 3: kind of solves both of them, really, but walk me

714
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:43,120
Speaker 3: through that.

715
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're so closely related, procrastination and perfectionism. One causes

716
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,640
Speaker 1: the other, and such a perfectionism will mean that you procrastinate.

717
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 1: So my ethos is like shitty art, Like if you

718
00:32:54,320 --> 00:32:56,920
Speaker 1: can't point to a giant pile of shitty art that

719
00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,040
Speaker 1: you've made recently, then you're not doing the work. And

720
00:33:00,080 --> 00:33:02,360
Speaker 1: I think so many artists see that as a sign

721
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: of failure. But to me, that is a sign of

722
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,520
Speaker 1: like giant success. We have to connect to that messy,

723
00:33:07,560 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: playful part of ourselves when we create. That's when the

724
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,440
Speaker 1: best art is made. I watch artists for nests and

725
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:15,160
Speaker 1: for ness, and they're trying to get it so right,

726
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:17,920
Speaker 1: and they're like narrowing and narrowing their point of view

727
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,560
Speaker 1: and they're getting so constrained and they're losing i think,

728
00:33:21,680 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: their own creative voice almost by these huge restrictions to

729
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:28,959
Speaker 1: be perfect. Whereas if you just say, make shitty art,

730
00:33:28,960 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 1: and I often do this at workshops, They say I

731
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,360
Speaker 1: got three minutes, just make something shitty, and the cool

732
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,440
Speaker 1: stuff that comes out of that shitty palm shitty drawings,

733
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:38,800
Speaker 1: there's also that little element of magic to it, because

734
00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: when you just let yourself play like a child, it's

735
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:45,320
Speaker 1: so fun. There's a lightness to it. Ideas come in

736
00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 1: like perfectionism is rigidity, and we think perfectionism is the answer.

737
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,160
Speaker 1: It's like, oh, if I'm a perfectionist, it's like that

738
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 1: will get me to where I want to go as

739
00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:56,960
Speaker 1: a creative. It's like the one fault that we're allowed

740
00:33:57,000 --> 00:34:00,880
Speaker 1: to have. But perfectionism will destroy your creative career, it

741
00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,760
Speaker 1: will destroy it. We need mess we need play. That

742
00:34:04,840 --> 00:34:07,120
Speaker 1: is when you will become the best artist you can.

743
00:34:07,520 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's actually often where I find the seeds

744
00:34:10,960 --> 00:34:14,040
Speaker 3: of great ideas come. Like you did something bad in

745
00:34:14,120 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 3: doing something random, but there's one word or one line,

746
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 3: there's one dott or whatever it is for you, there's

747
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 3: that one thing that you go, oh, that was the

748
00:34:22,120 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 3: real thing. That's the thing I want to create now,

749
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden it sparks it. But if

750
00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:28,640
Speaker 3: you didn't allow for that messiness, it's never going to happen.

751
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 3: You'd never have seen it, you would never have found it.

752
00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:34,960
Speaker 3: And that, to me is is definitely why I crave

753
00:34:35,120 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 3: more play and more messiness in my life, because there's

754
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:41,720
Speaker 3: a sense of the profound will only come from playfulness.

755
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 3: It's not going to come from trying to be profound

756
00:34:44,840 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 3: or create something profound. Yeah, it doesn't originate that way.

757
00:34:48,320 --> 00:34:50,440
Speaker 1: I think so many of us think that art is

758
00:34:50,480 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: like a child thing, and so we're trying to be

759
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: like adults creating, and adults would create in very structured ways,

760
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:59,320
Speaker 1: like we'd have rules, you know, we'd follow an expert,

761
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:01,200
Speaker 1: and we'd do exact what they say. And we try

762
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: and make art a very responsible and neat thing. But

763
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 1: art is like that in a child playing, and art

764
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 1: is messy and it should be a kind of a

765
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:11,799
Speaker 1: chaotic experience. We've got to invite that back into into

766
00:35:11,840 --> 00:35:12,440
Speaker 1: our lives.

767
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 3: Yes, I do this activity that I got introduced to

768
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,320
Speaker 3: many years ago. It's known as the thirty circles test,

769
00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 3: and if you've ever seen it, so it's basically a

770
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,279
Speaker 3: four piece of paper with thirty circles printed on it,

771
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,440
Speaker 3: and I often hand it to executives at corporate coaching

772
00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,520
Speaker 3: and corporate clients that I have, And the task is

773
00:35:30,520 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 3: you have to uniquely fill and complete and use thirty

774
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:39,360
Speaker 3: circles in thirty seconds. And the clock starts, and everyone

775
00:35:39,400 --> 00:35:41,960
Speaker 3: starts scribbling away doing their thing, and then clock stops

776
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:43,799
Speaker 3: at thirty seconds, and I asked them, what have they done?

777
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,919
Speaker 3: Over fifty percent of the audience will have done one, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

778
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 3: eight to thirty or abcd EFG to z Z to

779
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,319
Speaker 3: ABC again, and so they will have done that. That's

780
00:35:55,360 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 3: what over fifty percent of the audience has done. Some

781
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,680
Speaker 3: of the audience has done squiggles just goes nothing. There

782
00:36:00,719 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 3: maybe notts and crosses, or they've some people done emojis,

783
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: and some people have done like footballs and soccer balls

784
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:11,480
Speaker 3: and pizzas or whatever like using So yeah, and that's

785
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,160
Speaker 3: generally runs the gamut of ninety nine percent of the audience. Yeah,

786
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 3: and maybe in the adult side you'd get one. But

787
00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,000
Speaker 3: they also did this with lots of ten year olds,

788
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 3: and I tried it out with ten year olds as well,

789
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 3: and some of the stuff that comes out is unbelievable.

790
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 3: And so this one girl had done all this like

791
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,040
Speaker 3: intricate shading on it, and when we asked her what

792
00:36:31,080 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 3: it was, she said it was a chessboard from a

793
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,120
Speaker 3: bird's eye view. And when you ask another kid what

794
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 3: it was, they had put like a line around it

795
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 3: and put a little thing on top, and they said

796
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 3: it was a bag of marbles. And they put five

797
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: dollars on the bag of marbles. And this was my

798
00:36:46,080 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 3: favorite one. Someone had done all this intricate shading this

799
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,319
Speaker 3: little girl and put all this like curves and all

800
00:36:51,320 --> 00:36:53,080
Speaker 3: this stuff, and when I asked her what it was,

801
00:36:53,080 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 3: she said it was bubble wrap. It was so creative. Yeah,

802
00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 3: it's genius, and it's so interesting what you're saying is

803
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 3: so true that when adults here thirty circles thirty seconds,

804
00:37:05,480 --> 00:37:11,240
Speaker 3: we go logical brain structure, completion deadline, so we switch

805
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:13,760
Speaker 3: off the part of our brain that has any Yeah.

806
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 1: Can you can imagine how many of those adults are

807
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 1: thinking there is a right and.

808
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 2: Wrong way to do that?

809
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm going to be marked on it, whereas

810
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 1: these kids are just like, it's so beautiful, so playful.

811
00:37:24,560 --> 00:37:26,759
Speaker 1: And when we talk about creative genius, I think we

812
00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 1: often think of some of you know, the greats, like

813
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:31,279
Speaker 1: Mozart or something, but like, look to the kids, because

814
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: they are finding out fun stuff. Yes, they are the

815
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 1: creative geniuses, and we have that within us. It's just

816
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: that we've been told to squash that part of us

817
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 1: from our culture.

818
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:45,040
Speaker 3: Really, how do you start to structure and strategize art

819
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,279
Speaker 3: and promote it in a way that then it does

820
00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,800
Speaker 3: allow you to Because it's almost like we're trying to

821
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 3: become adult about our art, not adult about how we market,

822
00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:56,200
Speaker 3: promote and strategize our our It doesn't make sense. Yeah,

823
00:37:56,280 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: Like it's almost like the art should remain playful and

824
00:37:58,800 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 3: messy and truly creative. But then how we get that

825
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 3: art out there should potentially have structure and strategy.

826
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:07,839
Speaker 2: And yeah, I'm going to disagree with you.

827
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:10,640
Speaker 3: I want to hear your thoughts. But first, here's a

828
00:38:10,719 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 3: quick word from the brands that support the show. All right,

829
00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 3: thank you to our sponsors. Now let's dive back in.

830
00:38:18,080 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: I think there's a lot of room for mess, for playfulness,

831
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 1: for the chaos, the traditional creative chaos, in marketing putting

832
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: your art out there, I think we get really stuck

833
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,320
Speaker 1: on Okay, well, I've made my art. It's incredible, it's beautiful,

834
00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:33,879
Speaker 1: it has my inner child like infused within it. Now

835
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:36,760
Speaker 1: I'm going to market it, and now I need branding colors,

836
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:38,680
Speaker 1: and I need a social media scheme, and I need

837
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,200
Speaker 1: to be I need to be doing you know, four

838
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:44,719
Speaker 1: to five consistent posts a week and three reels, and

839
00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,200
Speaker 1: all of a sudden that like I see it, like

840
00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 1: artists just shrivel, Like we don't thrive under those kind

841
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,840
Speaker 1: of circumstances. I think there's so much room for I

842
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,600
Speaker 1: think marketing is an art form in itself, and therefore

843
00:38:56,680 --> 00:38:58,960
Speaker 1: I think that when we put our art out there,

844
00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: when we promote our art, there is room for mess.

845
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,360
Speaker 1: And there's still like shitty art should still be a

846
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 1: part of it, like we should still be playing around

847
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,319
Speaker 1: seeing what works, having fun when we promote our art

848
00:39:09,360 --> 00:39:13,040
Speaker 1: as well. I think artists feel so claustrophobic when they

849
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: feel like they have to niche down or they feel

850
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:19,240
Speaker 1: like they have to you know, meeten up their Instagram grid,

851
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 1: like be messy in the promotion process. Like we're out

852
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:27,280
Speaker 1: there looking for real humans to connect with, not not brands,

853
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:29,680
Speaker 1: not companies. I want to connect with artists who are

854
00:39:29,719 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 1: real human people. So I want to invite artists to

855
00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:36,759
Speaker 1: bring that mess into the marketing process as well. But

856
00:39:36,840 --> 00:39:39,040
Speaker 1: I think it's very easy, like for our perfectionists to

857
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: flare up when it comes to sharing it art because

858
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,239
Speaker 1: not only have we just done the bravest thing, which

859
00:39:43,280 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 1: is make art, now we have to share it, and

860
00:39:45,320 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 1: so perfectionism is going to flare hugely because we're like, kay,

861
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 1: we've got to protect myself because this is a moment

862
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: where I like put it out there and people are

863
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: going to see me as the artists. They're going to

864
00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: see my art, they're going to judge it.

865
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:56,320
Speaker 2: So we start.

866
00:39:56,120 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 1: Trying to structure it really heavily in order to feel safe.

867
00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:01,160
Speaker 1: And I just think we lose so much of the

868
00:40:01,200 --> 00:40:04,080
Speaker 1: magic when we do that. I want to see the artist.

869
00:40:04,120 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: I want to see the human. I want to see

870
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: your mess I want to see you playing. I want

871
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: to see I just want to see grit.

872
00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 3: No, I actually agree with you. I actually agree with you.

873
00:40:14,760 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 3: I definitely when I was doing my structure and strategy,

874
00:40:17,440 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 3: maybe I use the wrong words. I definitely don't mean

875
00:40:19,760 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 3: definitely don't like the idea of people having to you know,

876
00:40:23,600 --> 00:40:27,920
Speaker 3: like you said, choose brand colors and be organized. Yeah, no,

877
00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:30,799
Speaker 3: not in that way at all. And I couldn't agree

878
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,840
Speaker 3: with you more. That often that's the stuff that stifles

879
00:40:33,880 --> 00:40:37,400
Speaker 3: even more creativity because you're now playing a game, definitely,

880
00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:38,759
Speaker 3: and you hope to figure.

881
00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,400
Speaker 1: Out Yeah, I see artists, do you see it everywhere online?

882
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:43,640
Speaker 1: Especially in the space I'm in, because I'm so in,

883
00:40:44,040 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: you know, the creative space. Artists are just so tired

884
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 1: of having to show up in specific ways online in

885
00:40:50,960 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: order to please the algorithm. Like there's a weariness that

886
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 1: I see in creatives that's so heartbreaking, And I just

887
00:40:56,840 --> 00:40:58,759
Speaker 1: want to say, like, first of all, I know it's

888
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: hard to navigate these system but second of all, break

889
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 1: all the rules, rebel like artists are inherent like rebels.

890
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:07,239
Speaker 2: We break the rules.

891
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:10,280
Speaker 1: We've already broken loads of rules because we've created stuff

892
00:41:10,280 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 1: in a world that wants us to stay small and

893
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:14,879
Speaker 1: compliant and silent. Now it's time to break the rules

894
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:16,760
Speaker 1: with how we put our art out there. Do whatever

895
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,319
Speaker 1: you want to do, Do what makes you happy, do

896
00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 1: what feels creative, rather than you know, constantly obeying what's

897
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:26,760
Speaker 1: going to go you know, what we think might go viral,

898
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: or what reels are preferred by the algorithm. This stuff

899
00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 1: is making us feel like shit, and it's not I

900
00:41:32,320 --> 00:41:33,720
Speaker 1: don't know that it's helping us.

901
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:35,960
Speaker 3: And how do you feel like if someone's doing that,

902
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 3: but then they're also like going months and years without

903
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:40,319
Speaker 3: feeling like their work's being seen.

904
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is incredibly difficult, and there's nothing to me,

905
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 1: there's nothing more painful. And when you're sharing your art

906
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 1: and nobody is seeing it, like, there is an exquisite

907
00:41:52,880 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: pain when it comes to that silence and navigating like

908
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 1: putting something out there that you've just created and having

909
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:02,520
Speaker 1: no one respond. Like for me, when I was navigating that, like,

910
00:42:02,880 --> 00:42:05,600
Speaker 1: I was very very upset by it, and I felt

911
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,120
Speaker 1: almost ashamed by how upset I was by it again.

912
00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:10,839
Speaker 1: It's that idea that artists shouldn't want attention, But I

913
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:13,240
Speaker 1: wanted attention. I wanted people to see and read my books.

914
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to be witnessed. So when artists aren't seen

915
00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 1: and when we're like, Okay, I'm going to break all

916
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,360
Speaker 1: the rules, but it feels like by breaking the rules

917
00:42:21,360 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: you get missed or you get put to the side.

918
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:24,960
Speaker 2: That can be incredibly difficult.

919
00:42:25,120 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: I think there's a way to kind of toe the

920
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,439
Speaker 1: line and play the game, but what at the same time,

921
00:42:29,640 --> 00:42:32,000
Speaker 1: make sure that it feels good to you. Certainly for

922
00:42:32,040 --> 00:42:34,080
Speaker 1: the way that I like to share my art I

923
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: don't want to do what's going viral, but I will

924
00:42:36,800 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 1: still consider, like, you know, how it's going to impact

925
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,120
Speaker 1: my audience and what people have enjoyed of my content lately. Like,

926
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:44,800
Speaker 1: there's a game that I'm playing and it's a balance

927
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 1: that I like to There's a line I like to

928
00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: walk that makes it so it's still creatively fulfilling for me.

929
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:54,800
Speaker 1: But I'm not going to obey whatever the next niche

930
00:42:54,840 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: thing I have to do in order to be big

931
00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 1: on social media.

932
00:42:58,440 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 2: Do you find that, like in terms of your career.

933
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 3: I mean totally. I mean we in the beginning. You know,

934
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 3: for me, the videos that I started with were me

935
00:43:07,040 --> 00:43:12,760
Speaker 3: just freestyling, almost kind of rough words poetry on topics

936
00:43:12,760 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 3: that I loved. They went viral by chance, like they

937
00:43:15,840 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: weren't crafted for a particular time length or a particular

938
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 3: editing pattern because I didn't know them. I was just

939
00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 3: making videos and they went viral and people loved them,

940
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: and then I made more of those because I enjoyed them.

941
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:32,520
Speaker 3: But the day I stopped enjoying making them, we stopped

942
00:43:32,560 --> 00:43:35,800
Speaker 3: Yeah beautiful, and then we created a new format where

943
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:39,960
Speaker 3: I'd seen a lot of comedians who would do sketches

944
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:43,600
Speaker 3: and there'd be hilarious ketches of real life. I was like, well,

945
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 3: what if I did sketches of real life? Like what

946
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:49,360
Speaker 3: if I was to create real life experiences as dramatic

947
00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 3: performances with messaging. So we did those and I loved it,

948
00:43:52,960 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 3: and those went viral, and then there was a day

949
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 3: I didn't enjoy making those anymore. I felt like I

950
00:43:57,160 --> 00:44:00,360
Speaker 3: was trying too hard to come up with story lines.

951
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,319
Speaker 3: And then so we stop doing that, and then I

952
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,200
Speaker 3: started the podcast, which I'm still doing today because it

953
00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 3: feels like the most realist fluid form, because there is

954
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 3: no set structure to make an interview go viral. It's

955
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 3: truly a deep conversation. It's far less. There's not a

956
00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 3: science to that as much, and if there is, I

957
00:44:20,040 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 3: don't enjoy it because I choose not to ask. I

958
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 3: have a rule that we have of not to ask

959
00:44:25,360 --> 00:44:29,000
Speaker 3: gossip based back questions, clickbait questions, because that's how we

960
00:44:29,040 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 3: protect our art in that I want the conversations to

961
00:44:32,280 --> 00:44:35,040
Speaker 3: be true and genuine and sincere. But basically, when I've

962
00:44:35,080 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 3: stopped finding something fulfilling as art, I've stopped doing it

963
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,360
Speaker 3: because I've found that if I keep doing something I hate,

964
00:44:41,680 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 3: I'm going to end up hating parts of myself and

965
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:46,040
Speaker 3: I'm going to feel disconnected from myself.

966
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: We get a lot of bitter artists.

967
00:44:47,880 --> 00:44:50,799
Speaker 1: What we have, you know, a practice that we're doing,

968
00:44:51,040 --> 00:44:53,719
Speaker 1: whether that's in the creation process or whether it's when

969
00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:55,560
Speaker 1: we share it. If we don't like it and we

970
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,759
Speaker 1: keep doing it, we are going to become better. We

971
00:44:57,800 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 1: see a lot of bitter artists out there which are

972
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 1: so angry at what the world has made them. Do

973
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: you know, whether that's to sell their books or sell

974
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:06,919
Speaker 1: their art or be seen on social media and they're

975
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:11,200
Speaker 1: so pissed that they had to sacrifice their creative integrity

976
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: in order to be seen, and it just cannot be

977
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:14,000
Speaker 1: worth it.

978
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:15,480
Speaker 2: I just I want.

979
00:45:15,280 --> 00:45:19,560
Speaker 1: Creatives to create with what feels good, exactly like you, j.

980
00:45:19,600 --> 00:45:21,480
Speaker 1: It's such a beautiful example. When it stops feeling good,

981
00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: stop doing it, try something else.

982
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,359
Speaker 3: Yeah, because it did feel good at one point and yeah,

983
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 3: and it was new and fresh and it was created.

984
00:45:28,080 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 3: And the funny thing is part of me that want

985
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:31,040
Speaker 3: to go back to some of those now yea. And

986
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 3: so it's because I'm like, oh, I used to love

987
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 3: those videos eight years ago. Maybe if I reconnected to them,

988
00:45:35,360 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 3: I'd come at them from a really genuine place. And

989
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:41,640
Speaker 3: so I can now go back home feeling happy rather

990
00:45:41,719 --> 00:45:44,720
Speaker 3: than go back home feeling bitter because I feel forced

991
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 3: to be there. Yeah, And so I feel like when

992
00:45:46,640 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 3: you let the algorithm dictate what you make, you feel

993
00:45:50,000 --> 00:45:52,200
Speaker 3: forced to be there, and it's almost like your parents

994
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,640
Speaker 3: forcing you to come to family dinner and you don't

995
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:56,680
Speaker 3: want to be there exactly. And I love what you

996
00:45:56,719 --> 00:46:00,160
Speaker 3: said about artists being rebels because I remember when and

997
00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 3: I wrote Think like a Monk, my first book, and

998
00:46:02,880 --> 00:46:05,759
Speaker 3: fourteen out of seventeen imprints that I took meetings with

999
00:46:06,120 --> 00:46:08,680
Speaker 3: at different publishers told me not to call it Think

1000
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 3: like a Monk, because they were like, Jay, who wants

1001
00:46:10,760 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 3: to think like a monk? No, one wants to do that.

1002
00:46:12,840 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 3: And it was this big thing that I rom with

1003
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 3: this conversation, and we were talking earlier about when you're

1004
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 3: writing your first book, you don't know how much to

1005
00:46:19,440 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 3: push for and how much not to. That was something

1006
00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 3: I pushed for wholeheartedly, and I'm so glad that.

1007
00:46:24,600 --> 00:46:25,799
Speaker 2: I'm good glad you did.

1008
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,840
Speaker 3: And you know, it's so interesting because same with my

1009
00:46:28,880 --> 00:46:30,239
Speaker 3: second book. I was like, I had this view of

1010
00:46:30,280 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 3: an artistic cover and I pushed for it again because

1011
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,120
Speaker 3: I believed in it so deeply and I could have

1012
00:46:36,160 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 3: gone for the cover that they thought would sell the

1013
00:46:38,840 --> 00:46:40,640
Speaker 3: most or whatever, And it was never that. It was

1014
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 3: always like, I want to create something that I think

1015
00:46:42,640 --> 00:46:45,600
Speaker 3: is beautiful and powerful and builds a movement.

1016
00:46:46,040 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think we've been taught to we've got to

1017
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: create the thing that's going to go the most viral.

1018
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: But what if we create something that impacts you know,

1019
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 1: one hundred people, Like that's still incredibly worth it. I

1020
00:46:57,080 --> 00:47:00,319
Speaker 1: think we're always aiming for virality. We're always aimed for

1021
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:02,760
Speaker 1: like again, it's that big, go big or go home.

1022
00:47:03,040 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 1: Like what if we make art and share it in

1023
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:07,560
Speaker 1: a way that no, it doesn't go viral, but it

1024
00:47:07,600 --> 00:47:10,600
Speaker 1: connects and it impacts and it maybe it only finds

1025
00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: one or two people, but it does its thing and

1026
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,920
Speaker 1: it and it resonates with them. I feel like artists

1027
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 1: are always told, you know, go viral, be Taylor Swift,

1028
00:47:19,160 --> 00:47:21,560
Speaker 1: or be a starving artist, and it's this binary that

1029
00:47:21,560 --> 00:47:23,640
Speaker 1: doesn't serve us. I talk a lot about like I

1030
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:25,400
Speaker 1: want the I want this to be the era of

1031
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,279
Speaker 1: the middle class artist where it's like we don't need

1032
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:30,840
Speaker 1: millions and millions of dollars, we need, you know, a

1033
00:47:30,880 --> 00:47:33,320
Speaker 1: stable income and we get to enjoy a stable income

1034
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: and we're not the starving artist and we're not j Loo,

1035
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: but we are thriving, joyful, you know, financially secure artists.

1036
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 1: Like that's what I want for us, and I think

1037
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:44,880
Speaker 1: it's much more possible than we realize.

1038
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:47,239
Speaker 3: You just talked about how you want this culture of

1039
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 3: middle class artists, which I love that, Like that's such

1040
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,880
Speaker 3: a such a great vision and such a great mission

1041
00:47:52,920 --> 00:47:56,000
Speaker 3: that you're in. I really like that because, like you said,

1042
00:47:56,040 --> 00:47:57,799
Speaker 3: I think for so many years we've been told art's

1043
00:47:57,880 --> 00:47:59,480
Speaker 3: not a real job, it won't make you a living,

1044
00:47:59,600 --> 00:48:02,000
Speaker 3: what's the point, And we've subscribed to that, and then

1045
00:48:02,040 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 3: you do a safe job and then you realize you

1046
00:48:04,560 --> 00:48:07,160
Speaker 3: left your dream back there. Yeah, or you got lucky

1047
00:48:07,239 --> 00:48:09,759
Speaker 3: enough and art did become a really big thing, but

1048
00:48:10,400 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 3: then maybe you lost touch with the art you wanted

1049
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 3: to create and you felt like you sold out. And

1050
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:17,239
Speaker 3: I've always described it as the selfish artist or as

1051
00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:20,439
Speaker 3: a sellout artist. And it's like the selfish artists only

1052
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,239
Speaker 3: creates them for themselves, but then they don't ever get

1053
00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,279
Speaker 3: to feel what it feels like to share their art,

1054
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 3: and the sellout artist only creates for the audience, and

1055
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 3: then they never create what they truly want. And the

1056
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:32,759
Speaker 3: balance is in between. Yeah, But when it comes to

1057
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,680
Speaker 3: monetizing your art, I feel like people are scared of

1058
00:48:36,160 --> 00:48:40,799
Speaker 3: asking for money. We're scared of valuing our art accurately,

1059
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 3: and then at the same time we're struggling to pay

1060
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:46,080
Speaker 3: our bills at points in our life. How do you

1061
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:48,959
Speaker 3: encourage people to think about monetizing their art and becoming

1062
00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:50,120
Speaker 3: a middle class artist.

1063
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,280
Speaker 1: There's so much shame around for all of us, whatever

1064
00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: we're doing. There's so much shame around money. But I

1065
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 1: think for artists there are so many narratives. There's this

1066
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:01,239
Speaker 1: almost glamour around being the poor artist, and then as

1067
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: you say, then there's the glamor around being like the

1068
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:07,280
Speaker 1: super mega famous artists, And there's no healthy story about

1069
00:49:07,320 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 1: an artist who gets paid for what they do and

1070
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: can live, you know, a sustainable life and you know

1071
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,320
Speaker 1: there's a value exchange and it feels good, and the

1072
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 1: exchange of money feels good. And I feel like, for

1073
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:20,719
Speaker 1: me personally on my journey, like it's been the most

1074
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,160
Speaker 1: beautiful thing to realize that selling my art has felt

1075
00:49:24,520 --> 00:49:27,840
Speaker 1: really good, and selling my books has felt so aligned.

1076
00:49:27,880 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 1: I know that my stories are going to serve them

1077
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 1: and there's a value exchange and they pay me for

1078
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: my stories or they pay me for my words, and

1079
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,520
Speaker 1: it's felt really beautiful, like a very like a relationship,

1080
00:49:39,520 --> 00:49:42,759
Speaker 1: but it's felt very intimate. It's felt very aligned. And

1081
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:44,479
Speaker 1: I always thought that it was going to feel icky,

1082
00:49:44,560 --> 00:49:45,719
Speaker 1: or it was going to feel lucky, or that I

1083
00:49:45,760 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: was going to feel like I was taking advantage of

1084
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 1: them or manipulating them. But I've found a space where

1085
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: it feels good, and I want artists to understand that

1086
00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: selling your art can feel good, and so I want

1087
00:49:56,440 --> 00:49:58,759
Speaker 1: artists to start getting comfortable with the idea that art

1088
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 1: is valuable. That's maybe the part of the problem, Like

1089
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,560
Speaker 1: we don't understand that art is valuable. People think, oh,

1090
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: you know, food is valuable because it feeds me, or

1091
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, I need a computer because I need to

1092
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: do work on it. But we don't really understand the

1093
00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 1: value of art. And it is incredibly hard to put

1094
00:50:14,200 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 1: a monetary value on art. I mean, I have so

1095
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:19,640
Speaker 1: many conversations with creatives being like, how do I put

1096
00:50:19,880 --> 00:50:21,680
Speaker 1: a like a dollar sign on my art? And that

1097
00:50:21,840 --> 00:50:26,000
Speaker 1: is hard, it can feel very arbitrary. But art has value.

1098
00:50:26,480 --> 00:50:29,480
Speaker 1: Art brings so much value to other people, and the

1099
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:32,919
Speaker 1: artist needs to learn that because I think there's too

1100
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:35,920
Speaker 1: many creatives going around out there thinking, oh, I'm just

1101
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:38,640
Speaker 1: I'm making decoration for the world, or I'm just doing

1102
00:50:38,640 --> 00:50:42,280
Speaker 1: something that's so silly. I'm telling stories, I'm making movies.

1103
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: But it's just, you know, it doesn't make a difference.

1104
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:48,000
Speaker 1: Art makes a difference. And we're getting some very cool

1105
00:50:48,040 --> 00:50:51,160
Speaker 1: research coming in about how art impacts us physically, how

1106
00:50:51,200 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: it impacts our mental health, how it impacts our communities,

1107
00:50:53,719 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 1: like art changes us. But artists don't recognize that, and

1108
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,200
Speaker 1: we still think we're doing something frivolous, when in reality,

1109
00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:04,760
Speaker 1: we are doing something incredibly profound that is making real change,

1110
00:51:04,800 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: political change, personal change, biological change to other people around us.

1111
00:51:09,719 --> 00:51:13,040
Speaker 1: You deserve money for that. That story needs to sink in,

1112
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,080
Speaker 1: and then that value exchange is going to feel so

1113
00:51:15,160 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 1: much better.

1114
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 3: So powerful. I'm so glad you made it so easy

1115
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 3: and clear, and it's so true. Have so many friends

1116
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,000
Speaker 3: who are artists who do something it's quite easy for them,

1117
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,640
Speaker 3: or it's effortless for them, and then they're scared. And

1118
00:51:26,680 --> 00:51:29,759
Speaker 3: there's this beautiful, old made up story that I heard

1119
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:32,640
Speaker 3: a long time ago, where it's not true at all,

1120
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,560
Speaker 3: but it's got a nice message. And Picasso walks into

1121
00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,880
Speaker 3: the marketplace and this lady seeves Picasso and she says, picassa,

1122
00:51:39,880 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 3: will you draw me a portrait? He says, sure, I'll

1123
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:43,920
Speaker 3: draw your portrait. So he grabs a pen and paper

1124
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,080
Speaker 3: and he draws a portrait of her and he gives

1125
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 3: it back to her and she says, Picasso, that took

1126
00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:51,360
Speaker 3: thirty seconds, and he's like, it took me thirty years

1127
00:51:51,400 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 3: to do that in thirty seconds. And it's like, when

1128
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,440
Speaker 3: you're working as an artist, you're almost recognizing and reminding

1129
00:51:56,480 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 3: yourself that when you're putting a value in your work,

1130
00:51:59,600 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 3: you're putting value on all the training, all the pain,

1131
00:52:02,560 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 3: all the stress, all of that that went into that

1132
00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 3: piece that maybe have taken you twenty hours, maybe it

1133
00:52:08,000 --> 00:52:09,720
Speaker 3: took you two hours, maybe it took you two minutes.

1134
00:52:10,160 --> 00:52:14,080
Speaker 3: But there's so much experience that went into that piece.

1135
00:52:14,520 --> 00:52:16,719
Speaker 3: And so whether it was a quote on Instagram or

1136
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 3: whether it was a piece of art, we're always valuing

1137
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:21,799
Speaker 3: how long it took us to do the thing, not

1138
00:52:21,840 --> 00:52:25,000
Speaker 3: how longs to live what it took to do that thing.

1139
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: I also think we think that because art can be

1140
00:52:27,520 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 1: joyful or easy to make, that it shouldn't be worth money.

1141
00:52:30,920 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: Because I had a really good time writing my book,

1142
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:36,319
Speaker 1: I should give away it for free, yes, which is ridiculous.

1143
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:39,200
Speaker 1: I think we almost feel like we've got it too good.

1144
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:42,160
Speaker 1: Could I love the process and be paid for it? Yes,

1145
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:44,400
Speaker 1: you could, because your art has a lot of value

1146
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,160
Speaker 1: and you deserve to be paid for it. Again, I

1147
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:52,560
Speaker 1: want artists to understand what you are making has value,

1148
00:52:52,760 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 1: you deserve money for it.

1149
00:52:54,480 --> 00:52:56,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, And I think about it all the time.

1150
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:01,040
Speaker 3: There's also this feeling of if you're doing something truly

1151
00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:04,439
Speaker 3: to help people, it should be absolutely free. And that's

1152
00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,840
Speaker 3: a really interesting one. God, you have a reaction. I

1153
00:53:06,840 --> 00:53:08,000
Speaker 3: can see your reaction to that.

1154
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:11,239
Speaker 1: So I think it happens for artists a lot too.

1155
00:53:11,320 --> 00:53:13,400
Speaker 1: And I get a lot of creatives telling me that

1156
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:16,399
Speaker 1: all they're family members asking for free art or you know,

1157
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:18,719
Speaker 1: if you really wanted the world to change, you would

1158
00:53:18,719 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 1: give it away for free. Lots of narratives again, constantly

1159
00:53:21,520 --> 00:53:26,280
Speaker 1: asking artists to work for free, devaluing creatives, devaluing artists.

1160
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:29,360
Speaker 1: And it's so painful because it's kind of a seductive narrative.

1161
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:30,840
Speaker 1: I actually really want to hear what you have to

1162
00:53:30,880 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: think about it. But this idea that it's only generous

1163
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 1: if there's not a value exchange, it's just so cruel

1164
00:53:38,280 --> 00:53:40,560
Speaker 1: and it leaves artists. First of all, it perpetuates the

1165
00:53:40,560 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 1: scarcity story and the artists support we have the money,

1166
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:46,279
Speaker 1: which means we end up not creating that much, which

1167
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,200
Speaker 1: means we don't have the money, which means we're working

1168
00:53:48,400 --> 00:53:50,120
Speaker 1: multiple jobs, which means we can't.

1169
00:53:49,920 --> 00:53:50,600
Speaker 2: Create the art.

1170
00:53:50,719 --> 00:53:54,320
Speaker 1: Like, if we don't support and nourish artists with money,

1171
00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:58,400
Speaker 1: we lose artists. So we need to be paying our artists.

1172
00:53:58,400 --> 00:53:59,960
Speaker 1: If you want more art, if you want an art

1173
00:54:00,080 --> 00:54:02,719
Speaker 1: a world that is filled with books and movies and

1174
00:54:02,760 --> 00:54:06,360
Speaker 1: creations and music and beautiful gardens and good food, we

1175
00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:09,319
Speaker 1: need to support our artists. And I still think that

1176
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 1: when we put our art up for sale and when

1177
00:54:11,120 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 1: we sell it, it is a profoundly generous act, especially

1178
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,640
Speaker 1: when we ask for money for it in return.

1179
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, you asked my opinion on it, It's similar to yours.

1180
00:54:20,040 --> 00:54:22,360
Speaker 3: I remember at one point in my life, I was

1181
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:24,719
Speaker 3: I had one hundred million views, and I was four

1182
00:54:24,760 --> 00:54:30,439
Speaker 3: months away from being broke, and I was starting to think, Okay,

1183
00:54:30,440 --> 00:54:32,879
Speaker 3: I'm going to have to go back to work. I'm

1184
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:35,359
Speaker 3: going to have to get a job again. And I

1185
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:37,719
Speaker 3: know that the job I would probably get would be demanding,

1186
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,160
Speaker 3: because that's the job i'd get with my education and

1187
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 3: everything I have, and therefore I'd probably not be able

1188
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,160
Speaker 3: to do much of this anymore. And that means if

1189
00:54:45,160 --> 00:54:46,960
Speaker 3: I can't make this anymore, but the one hundred million

1190
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 3: views I have, the comments and everything i'm reading a say,

1191
00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:51,400
Speaker 3: this really helped me, This changed my life. I shared it.

1192
00:54:51,480 --> 00:54:53,160
Speaker 3: I like all the comments I'm reading are like, people

1193
00:54:53,160 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 3: are benefited by this, but I'm not going to be

1194
00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:57,680
Speaker 3: able to do that anymore because I don't know how.

1195
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 3: And I remember going through that whole process and I

1196
00:55:00,640 --> 00:55:02,879
Speaker 3: was thinking, well, wait a minute. And at that time,

1197
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,360
Speaker 3: I was shaming and giving myself or even thinking that

1198
00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:07,879
Speaker 3: I could charge for something, and I was like, well,

1199
00:55:08,080 --> 00:55:09,839
Speaker 3: how do I do that? And like, but people are

1200
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:12,560
Speaker 3: getting value from it. But then I really want to

1201
00:55:12,560 --> 00:55:14,560
Speaker 3: do it for free because that's how I was trained

1202
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 3: to always and obviously with my monk background, it's like

1203
00:55:17,360 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 3: everything was for free and everything was charity work, and

1204
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:23,080
Speaker 3: so I really had that conditioning. And then I thought

1205
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:25,040
Speaker 3: to myself, well, if I give up what I love

1206
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:29,319
Speaker 3: that helps people and serves people and I can't do

1207
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,840
Speaker 3: it any longer, is that the world I want to

1208
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,120
Speaker 3: live in? And it was a really clear answer where

1209
00:55:34,120 --> 00:55:35,680
Speaker 3: it was like, well, no, I want to live in

1210
00:55:35,680 --> 00:55:37,759
Speaker 3: a world where I could do this forever. I can

1211
00:55:37,800 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 3: help more people do what they want to do. We

1212
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:42,920
Speaker 3: can even create teams that will all be living a

1213
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:45,040
Speaker 3: purposeful life that they want to excuse me that they

1214
00:55:45,040 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 3: want to live in. Yeah, and we'll be able to

1215
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,360
Speaker 3: hopefully impact so many more people who will create amazing

1216
00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:54,959
Speaker 3: journeys for themselves. And I'm so glad that, despite any

1217
00:55:54,960 --> 00:55:57,720
Speaker 3: criticism shame guilt that comes with that path, I'm glad

1218
00:55:57,719 --> 00:56:01,720
Speaker 3: I made that choice because I'm far happier having pursued

1219
00:56:01,760 --> 00:56:03,480
Speaker 3: that then I would have been if I just went, Okay,

1220
00:56:03,480 --> 00:56:05,840
Speaker 3: well I'm done. I'm done now because I can't afford

1221
00:56:05,880 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 3: to do what a huge.

1222
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 2: Loss for the whole world if you would have been like,

1223
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:09,040
Speaker 2: I'm done.

1224
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,520
Speaker 3: And for myself and for you. Yeah, and the creative

1225
00:56:11,520 --> 00:56:16,840
Speaker 3: of like just also just not just thinking about well

1226
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 3: I can't make more if I don't have enough to

1227
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 3: make with, like yeh, Whom'm going to pay to edit

1228
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:23,719
Speaker 3: the video exactly to film this? And how all of

1229
00:56:23,760 --> 00:56:26,479
Speaker 3: this and there was even even with the podcast, which

1230
00:56:26,560 --> 00:56:28,839
Speaker 3: which is free. And I always thank everyone for us

1231
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 3: allowing to have our sponsors and our ad partners, which

1232
00:56:31,600 --> 00:56:34,040
Speaker 3: is the way we're able to do this. And we're

1233
00:56:34,120 --> 00:56:36,200
Speaker 3: so I always said this to everyone, We'll not everyone.

1234
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 3: I say this to my friends behind closed doors. I'm like,

1235
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,520
Speaker 3: we're so selective over which brands we work with, which

1236
00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:43,680
Speaker 3: companies we partner with in order to present that to

1237
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 3: our community, and we probably leave more on the table

1238
00:56:46,560 --> 00:56:49,319
Speaker 3: than we even make because of that desire to get

1239
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 3: it right. And I'm not saying that to sound holy

1240
00:56:51,840 --> 00:56:55,439
Speaker 3: than now or sound what I'm saying is everything's done intentionally,

1241
00:56:55,880 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 3: and I think if it's done intentionally, there's a heart

1242
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:01,719
Speaker 3: there and there's a a truth there of wanting to

1243
00:57:01,760 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 3: serve and wanting things to be good. Yeah, and the

1244
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 3: podcast is absolutely free, but there are certain things that

1245
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:10,799
Speaker 3: may not be if that person wants to hold that

1246
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 3: integrity to themselves.

1247
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: And no, it makes a huge amount of sense. I

1248
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 1: think artists are just constantly people always want to call

1249
00:57:18,400 --> 00:57:21,120
Speaker 1: them out for selling out. And I don't know why

1250
00:57:21,160 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: we're so vulnerable to that narrative. Because you don't go

1251
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 1: up to your accountant who's doing, you know, important work,

1252
00:57:25,520 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 1: and say why are you being paid for this? We

1253
00:57:27,640 --> 00:57:31,160
Speaker 1: don't go up to we don't ask other people why

1254
00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: do you want money for your job? But we ask

1255
00:57:34,120 --> 00:57:36,480
Speaker 1: artists that all the time. We ask creatives that all

1256
00:57:36,520 --> 00:57:40,360
Speaker 1: the time. And it's interesting and I don't fully understand

1257
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:44,439
Speaker 1: the narrative there, but I question it, and I want

1258
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:46,840
Speaker 1: to like double down, like we deserve to be paid

1259
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:49,320
Speaker 1: and we deserve not to be questioned about that as well, like,

1260
00:57:49,400 --> 00:57:52,640
Speaker 1: of course we bring value, we deserve money.

1261
00:57:52,760 --> 00:57:55,400
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I think it's because and that's a great point,

1262
00:57:55,440 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 3: it's like wanting to understand it. I think it's because

1263
00:57:58,800 --> 00:58:03,080
Speaker 3: emotional and spiritual exchanges are not valued in society as

1264
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 3: deeply right, Like you can't. We all know there's people

1265
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:10,120
Speaker 3: you meet that energetically make you feel better, Yeah, because

1266
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 3: you don't known to pay for that as an energetic exchange.

1267
00:58:13,280 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 3: You almost think it's impure if you had to pay

1268
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 3: for it. So we see money as impure, and we

1269
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,240
Speaker 3: see art as pure.

1270
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, and we don't like them touching correct, Whereas I

1271
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: want to very gently suggest that art is like messy,

1272
00:58:25,600 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 1: human like not pure at all. It is wholly an

1273
00:58:29,400 --> 00:58:32,400
Speaker 1: incredible and the most important force ever, but it's messy

1274
00:58:32,440 --> 00:58:34,920
Speaker 1: and it's human. And it's same with money. It's like,

1275
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:37,880
Speaker 1: you know, none of these things are impure or pure,

1276
00:58:37,960 --> 00:58:41,200
Speaker 1: where they're all very human ideas, and I believe aren't

1277
00:58:41,240 --> 00:58:42,120
Speaker 1: money belongs together.

1278
00:58:42,640 --> 00:58:44,160
Speaker 3: I love that. I want to ask you a few

1279
00:58:44,200 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 3: more about some emotions that artists often go through. I

1280
00:58:47,440 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 3: think one of them today is oversaturation, this feeling of

1281
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 3: it's oversaturated. Like I was looking at someone the other

1282
00:58:54,640 --> 00:58:56,560
Speaker 3: day a friend of mine said to me, they said, gee,

1283
00:58:56,560 --> 00:58:58,320
Speaker 3: I feel like you were one of the first podcasts.

1284
00:58:58,320 --> 00:59:01,200
Speaker 3: And I was like, I think you must be kidding, right,

1285
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:02,800
Speaker 3: and they're like, no, no, no, I think you were

1286
00:59:02,840 --> 00:59:04,480
Speaker 3: like one of the first podcasts. I was like, I

1287
00:59:04,520 --> 00:59:06,520
Speaker 3: lount my podcast in twenty nineteen, and I pulled up

1288
00:59:06,520 --> 00:59:08,960
Speaker 3: this train I googled it. There were three hundred and

1289
00:59:08,960 --> 00:59:12,800
Speaker 3: thirty six thousand podcasts that existed in twenty nineteen, and

1290
00:59:12,880 --> 00:59:15,120
Speaker 3: of course there are so many before that that were

1291
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:17,520
Speaker 3: that were well known and big as well. And it

1292
00:59:17,560 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 3: was like, but to them, because I was the first

1293
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 3: podcast they'd discovered, I must have been the first podcast.

1294
00:59:22,800 --> 00:59:25,400
Speaker 3: And I was like, it's really the first thing of

1295
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:29,640
Speaker 3: anything that takes off as lessons is whatever. Today, I

1296
00:59:29,680 --> 00:59:30,600
Speaker 3: think there's over probably.

1297
00:59:30,680 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 2: I was about to ask, do you know the number?

1298
00:59:32,000 --> 00:59:34,360
Speaker 3: I think I could be wrong, but maybe like two

1299
00:59:34,360 --> 00:59:36,520
Speaker 3: million maybe today? Oh yeah, And so I'm sure it's

1300
00:59:36,600 --> 00:59:38,600
Speaker 3: high because it's been five years since I.

1301
00:59:38,560 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: Still I want to say, though, like two million isn't

1302
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 1: that high? Not like there's seven billion of us. People like,

1303
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:46,560
Speaker 1: I couldn't start a podcast. It's saturated. I'm like, it is.

1304
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: There's two million podcasts. There are so many of us,

1305
00:59:48,920 --> 00:59:51,360
Speaker 1: there are billions of us. I think we can kind of.

1306
00:59:51,280 --> 00:59:51,920
Speaker 2: Get the scale.

1307
00:59:51,920 --> 00:59:56,000
Speaker 1: A bit confused, sometimes totally, but yeah, whenever anyone says

1308
00:59:56,040 --> 00:59:57,320
Speaker 1: I can't it's oversaturated.

1309
00:59:58,040 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 2: No.

1310
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,360
Speaker 1: Plus, there's no noise like your noise. There's nothing that you. Again,

1311
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:07,200
Speaker 1: you're a one time phenomenon. You're never going to be repeated.

1312
01:00:07,440 --> 01:00:09,160
Speaker 1: You have something to say, this's never been said. You

1313
01:00:09,160 --> 01:00:13,000
Speaker 1: have a viewpoint that will never be replicated. You almost

1314
01:00:13,000 --> 01:00:13,920
Speaker 1: have your own market.

1315
01:00:14,520 --> 01:00:17,480
Speaker 3: Yes, there's so much. I see that more and more

1316
01:00:17,520 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 3: when I see creators come up, and I'm like, there

1317
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 3: is so much demand in the world.

1318
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 2: We're so hungry. Yeah, art to be seen.

1319
01:00:25,520 --> 01:00:28,160
Speaker 3: And you can make people feel seen in a way

1320
01:00:28,200 --> 01:00:31,920
Speaker 3: that no one else can. And that's your superpower and

1321
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,320
Speaker 3: that's what's so beautiful about you, and that's what's needed,

1322
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:36,920
Speaker 3: because you're going to make someone feel seen, heard, and

1323
01:00:37,000 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 3: understood in a way no one else can, in a

1324
01:00:39,120 --> 01:00:41,440
Speaker 3: way I can't, in a way you can't, in a way.

1325
01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:44,280
Speaker 1: I love that, Yeah, I really I often use this

1326
01:00:44,320 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 1: example when people talk about oversaturation and art, because I

1327
01:00:48,080 --> 01:00:51,440
Speaker 1: think art sits in a really different space to other products. So,

1328
01:00:51,480 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: for example, like a toaster, I only want one toaster. Oh,

1329
01:00:55,960 --> 01:00:58,280
Speaker 1: I could maybe want to but basically I want one toaster.

1330
01:00:58,400 --> 01:01:01,400
Speaker 1: But I want hundreds of books I want. I can

1331
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:03,680
Speaker 1: watch so many films, I can have so much art

1332
01:01:03,680 --> 01:01:05,480
Speaker 1: around me, Like I want so many different types of

1333
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:07,480
Speaker 1: plants for my garden. I want, you know, to try

1334
01:01:07,520 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 1: different types of food.

1335
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:11,840
Speaker 2: Like, we have a really really big appetite for art.

1336
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: And so when people come in and say, oh, I

1337
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly be a writer. There's so many writers in

1338
01:01:17,440 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 1: the world, I'm like, I can't have enough books, Like

1339
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:23,640
Speaker 1: I'm mainlining them on audiobooks, like just all the time.

1340
01:01:23,800 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: Like art is not toaster, it's not a fridge. We

1341
01:01:27,120 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 1: don't need just one of them. We have a much

1342
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,920
Speaker 1: bigger market than you realize. And I always feel whenever

1343
01:01:33,960 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 1: a creative, I very gently say this, when a creative

1344
01:01:36,160 --> 01:01:38,280
Speaker 1: comes to me and says I can't it's oversaturated, I go,

1345
01:01:38,360 --> 01:01:41,200
Speaker 1: there's got to be another reason. Yes, you're playing small,

1346
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:44,480
Speaker 1: like cause it sounds great, sounds like a perfect excuse,

1347
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: But we need your voice there is no noise. No

1348
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 1: noise like your noise start taking up space. Yes, and

1349
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,200
Speaker 1: like two million podcasts seven billion of us and don't

1350
01:01:55,200 --> 01:01:57,840
Speaker 1: want more podcasts. I listened to new podcasts all the time.

1351
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,040
Speaker 3: Actually, and most people have found listening to a collecttion

1352
01:02:00,160 --> 01:02:01,680
Speaker 3: a podcast totallyople.

1353
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 2: Dad was asking that, like.

1354
01:02:03,320 --> 01:02:05,440
Speaker 3: How do you feel about so many other podcasts coming up?

1355
01:02:05,480 --> 01:02:07,720
Speaker 3: And that's the funny thing. It's like, that's the conversation

1356
01:02:07,840 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 3: when you're established in the conversation when you're new, is

1357
01:02:10,200 --> 01:02:12,880
Speaker 3: there's too many? Yes, everyone's like oh, and I'm like

1358
01:02:13,200 --> 01:02:15,600
Speaker 3: I love it because most people are listening to like

1359
01:02:15,640 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 3: two or three different podcasts at the same time. It's

1360
01:02:18,240 --> 01:02:20,960
Speaker 3: how we like, we don't all go I only watch Netflix.

1361
01:02:21,000 --> 01:02:22,840
Speaker 3: It's like, no, I like shows on Apple, and I

1362
01:02:22,880 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 3: like some shows on whatever else there is here. Sorry,

1363
01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:29,880
Speaker 3: I only know the HBO and Hulu and whatever else

1364
01:02:29,920 --> 01:02:32,320
Speaker 3: there is. It's like you don't just go, oh no, no,

1365
01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:36,080
Speaker 3: I only watch this one platform. I only watch YouTube.

1366
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:39,040
Speaker 3: I don't use Instagram, like it doesn't work like no, and.

1367
01:02:39,040 --> 01:02:41,480
Speaker 1: Like on Instagram it's like, oh, there there's an oversaturation

1368
01:02:41,520 --> 01:02:42,080
Speaker 1: of poets.

1369
01:02:42,120 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, I give me all the poets.

1370
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:45,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly.

1371
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:49,000
Speaker 1: I'm not just following one poet on Instagram. Yeah, and

1372
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:51,520
Speaker 1: there's a renaissance for so many art forms at the

1373
01:02:51,520 --> 01:02:54,120
Speaker 1: moment because of social media, because we have this like

1374
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: connection economy, and there is more space than ever before,

1375
01:02:57,360 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: and it can feel like there's a lot of noise

1376
01:02:59,040 --> 01:03:01,760
Speaker 1: because of these spaces, and because when you scroll through

1377
01:03:01,800 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 1: Instagram you can.

1378
01:03:02,560 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 2: See a lot of creators.

1379
01:03:04,160 --> 01:03:07,120
Speaker 1: But it's because we're hungry for it, and more than ever,

1380
01:03:07,160 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: we're hungry for very vulnerable, real connection. We're hungry for

1381
01:03:11,040 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: art in a world where we're showing a lot of

1382
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:16,120
Speaker 1: you know, listicals or like viral content, Like, we're hungry

1383
01:03:16,160 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 1: for human expression and so it's time for artists to

1384
01:03:19,960 --> 01:03:22,640
Speaker 1: step up, take up space, share their art, and make

1385
01:03:22,720 --> 01:03:25,600
Speaker 1: things because we're desperate for it. So yeah, I really

1386
01:03:25,600 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: won't hear anything to do with the saturated market.

1387
01:03:27,760 --> 01:03:28,640
Speaker 2: I would shut that down.

1388
01:03:30,600 --> 01:03:34,080
Speaker 3: Another emotion I think a lot of artists experience is jealousy. Yeah,

1389
01:03:34,080 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 3: if we're being really honest, jealousy and envy of like

1390
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:38,520
Speaker 3: I wish I had that, I wish I've got those views.

1391
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:43,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm jealous, but I am but I see jealousy

1392
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:46,080
Speaker 1: as a compass I think it can be a beautiful emotion.

1393
01:03:46,440 --> 01:03:48,920
Speaker 1: If we let it fester, it can be toxic. I

1394
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:51,000
Speaker 1: love the way you use your platforms. I love the

1395
01:03:51,080 --> 01:03:53,320
Speaker 1: art you make, I love the way that you use

1396
01:03:53,360 --> 01:03:55,600
Speaker 1: this podcast like and then there is a definite like

1397
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:57,880
Speaker 1: almost it feels a bit like jealousy, like I want

1398
01:03:57,880 --> 01:04:00,240
Speaker 1: what you have, But I can use that in a

1399
01:04:00,240 --> 01:04:03,439
Speaker 1: way that is incredibly inspiring to me in my art,

1400
01:04:04,000 --> 01:04:05,640
Speaker 1: and I know where it is I want to go.

1401
01:04:05,720 --> 01:04:07,800
Speaker 1: I can learn from you, I can be taught by you.

1402
01:04:08,800 --> 01:04:11,640
Speaker 1: I can follow in your footsteps. And if we can

1403
01:04:11,720 --> 01:04:14,520
Speaker 1: use jealousy in that way rather than sinking down into

1404
01:04:14,520 --> 01:04:17,440
Speaker 1: patterns of comparison, so instead of me sitting here and

1405
01:04:17,480 --> 01:04:19,960
Speaker 1: being like, oh why am I not in Jay's position,

1406
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:23,200
Speaker 1: and like listing the reasons why and like comparing two

1407
01:04:23,240 --> 01:04:26,760
Speaker 1: incomparable artists, I can say I can use jealousy as

1408
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:30,120
Speaker 1: a compass. And I really wish that artists could see

1409
01:04:30,200 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 1: it in that way, because again, it's another emotion that

1410
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:36,080
Speaker 1: can take us down. I can feel constantly less than,

1411
01:04:36,280 --> 01:04:38,880
Speaker 1: never enough, and I also feel like it's an emotion

1412
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:40,919
Speaker 1: that maybe doesn't go away. I'm not sure if that's

1413
01:04:40,960 --> 01:04:43,560
Speaker 1: been your experience, if you've seen that it doesn't matter

1414
01:04:43,560 --> 01:04:46,600
Speaker 1: how big you get, there's always someone who's got something

1415
01:04:46,600 --> 01:04:48,480
Speaker 1: that maybe you want or something like that, and it

1416
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:50,080
Speaker 1: just that if you don't get a handle on it.

1417
01:04:50,160 --> 01:04:52,240
Speaker 1: I feel like it's not something that, yeah, it doesn't

1418
01:04:52,240 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 1: fade away with success.

1419
01:04:53,560 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah. There's two questions I ask clients of mine

1420
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,640
Speaker 3: when I'm coaching them, And the firstsion is who do

1421
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:03,360
Speaker 3: you envy? And there's no one that I've met, no

1422
01:05:03,400 --> 01:05:06,200
Speaker 3: matter how successful they are, that doesn't know that word

1423
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:09,440
Speaker 3: on the tip of their lips that they know it.

1424
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:14,320
Speaker 3: And I've found that learning to deal with envy and

1425
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 3: transform it is core to happiness and fulfillment in life

1426
01:05:18,880 --> 01:05:22,200
Speaker 3: because you can't forget even how much you do what

1427
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 3: you love. Even if you did what you love every

1428
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,680
Speaker 3: day and it paid you well, you'd still be unhappy

1429
01:05:27,720 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 3: if you had envy in your life. Like envy is

1430
01:05:30,120 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 3: that force? That what you're saying to use it as

1431
01:05:32,960 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 3: a compass and what I often do. And I said

1432
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:37,040
Speaker 3: this to you the moment you walked in, because I

1433
01:05:37,120 --> 01:05:39,720
Speaker 3: love it the way you write. I said to you, oh, yeah,

1434
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,800
Speaker 3: I probably need to take a workshop with you. And

1435
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:45,840
Speaker 3: that's me saying I'd rather study with you than envy you. Like,

1436
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:49,040
Speaker 3: that's the choice I get to make. I'd rather study

1437
01:05:49,120 --> 01:05:51,720
Speaker 3: you and your work and how you've learned that, and

1438
01:05:51,760 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 3: study with you and grow and have a relationship with

1439
01:05:54,920 --> 01:05:58,600
Speaker 3: a mentor than to envy that person and want to

1440
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:01,320
Speaker 3: never give myself the opportun unity to grow and become,

1441
01:06:01,680 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 3: but only to unbecome and unlearn and kind of go backwards.

1442
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 2: That was stunning.

1443
01:06:07,080 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 1: I loved everything you just said so much. I feel

1444
01:06:09,600 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 1: like it's so beautiful. The idea that it's an opportunity

1445
01:06:12,800 --> 01:06:15,400
Speaker 1: to level up as soon as you feel that jealousy

1446
01:06:15,400 --> 01:06:17,440
Speaker 1: and envy, I think you've got two options. It's like

1447
01:06:17,880 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 1: you could really let this take you down, or you

1448
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: could really let this take you up. So it's very exciting.

1449
01:06:22,440 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1450
01:06:22,960 --> 01:06:25,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a similar with imposter syndrome. I have to

1451
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: feel like imposter syndrome is a sign that you've leveled

1452
01:06:27,400 --> 01:06:27,960
Speaker 1: up as well.

1453
01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 2: Yes, you're in that new skin and.

1454
01:06:29,520 --> 01:06:33,720
Speaker 1: It feels like uncomfortable, but yeah, it's an opportunity to say, no,

1455
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: I'm going to learn from you. I'm gonna, yeah, sit

1456
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 1: at your feet. I love that.

1457
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:40,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely, we need your art is out right now

1458
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,240
Speaker 3: I'm excited for everyone to grab a copy of the book. Amy,

1459
01:06:44,280 --> 01:06:46,240
Speaker 3: is there anything that I haven't asked you that really

1460
01:06:46,280 --> 01:06:47,959
Speaker 3: on your heart or something you wanted to talk about

1461
01:06:47,960 --> 01:06:50,240
Speaker 3: that we somehow didn't get to that that you want

1462
01:06:50,240 --> 01:06:51,960
Speaker 3: to share now that intuitively is coming to you.

1463
01:06:52,040 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we could talk for a long long time. Sure,

1464
01:06:56,000 --> 01:06:59,080
Speaker 1: I think I want to talk about how when I

1465
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:01,520
Speaker 1: wrote we Need Your Art, and it was, you know,

1466
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:05,040
Speaker 1: not long ago. I love that I got to speak

1467
01:07:05,080 --> 01:07:08,840
Speaker 1: to the creative experiences from in the trenches, and because

1468
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:12,360
Speaker 1: it can be such a challenging experience navigating yourself as

1469
01:07:12,360 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 1: a creative. There's so much rejection, silence, you know, imposter syndron, comparison,

1470
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: like so much of what we've spoken about. And I

1471
01:07:19,360 --> 01:07:22,640
Speaker 1: love that I got to write this book in it

1472
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 1: like I'm still experiencing rejection, still experiencing silence.

1473
01:07:25,960 --> 01:07:26,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.

1474
01:07:27,000 --> 01:07:30,280
Speaker 1: And I love that I got to, yeah, delve into

1475
01:07:30,280 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 1: this topic with everyone as we all navigate it. And Yeah,

1476
01:07:35,200 --> 01:07:37,000
Speaker 1: I'm very excited for people to get to read this

1477
01:07:37,040 --> 01:07:40,240
Speaker 1: book and for me to be on that journey with them.

1478
01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:42,720
Speaker 1: Like the greatest privilege in the world for me is

1479
01:07:42,760 --> 01:07:46,120
Speaker 1: to sit by an artist and watch them create. There's

1480
01:07:46,160 --> 01:07:48,280
Speaker 1: no greater honor to me. So yeah, I'm very excited

1481
01:07:48,360 --> 01:07:50,320
Speaker 1: for this, this book Baby to be in people's hands.

1482
01:07:50,360 --> 01:07:52,440
Speaker 3: That's beautiful me too. I really believe it's going to

1483
01:07:52,480 --> 01:07:56,080
Speaker 3: be that, you know, that generational book that's going to

1484
01:07:56,240 --> 01:07:59,600
Speaker 3: inspire all these new creatives and artists at time when

1485
01:08:00,120 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 3: I don't feel ever since social media took off, we've

1486
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 3: really had a book that speaks to that dilemma of

1487
01:08:07,360 --> 01:08:09,360
Speaker 3: being an artist. And I feel like we need your

1488
01:08:09,400 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 3: arts that book.

1489
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:10,600
Speaker 2: So thank you.

1490
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,360
Speaker 3: I'm really excited for you and excited for everyone have it.

1491
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:16,320
Speaker 3: Excited to read it myself and have it. But Amy,

1492
01:08:16,360 --> 01:08:19,280
Speaker 3: we end every On Purpose episode with a final five.

1493
01:08:19,680 --> 01:08:21,479
Speaker 3: These have to be answered in one word to one

1494
01:08:21,520 --> 01:08:25,599
Speaker 3: sentence maximum. So Amy mcne these are your fast final five.

1495
01:08:25,680 --> 01:08:28,080
Speaker 2: I've been preparing. I love it.

1496
01:08:29,080 --> 01:08:32,200
Speaker 3: Question number one, what is the best advice you've ever

1497
01:08:32,240 --> 01:08:33,120
Speaker 3: heard or received?

1498
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:35,920
Speaker 1: I love what Liz Gilbert says when she says this

1499
01:08:36,000 --> 01:08:40,200
Speaker 1: world is just a school for endless learning. I love

1500
01:08:40,240 --> 01:08:42,479
Speaker 1: this idea, and I feel like you embodied this so much.

1501
01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:44,960
Speaker 1: It's like this is just a school for endless learning.

1502
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: We just get to keep being curious, keep learning, keep

1503
01:08:48,240 --> 01:08:51,360
Speaker 1: making mess and then finding something magic within it. And

1504
01:08:51,600 --> 01:08:54,759
Speaker 1: I love taking that into each day because it allows

1505
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:57,200
Speaker 1: for so much room and it gives me even if

1506
01:08:57,200 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: it's shitty or I think it's good, I love it.

1507
01:08:59,280 --> 01:09:02,160
Speaker 3: I love it. Question number two, what is the worst

1508
01:09:02,200 --> 01:09:03,759
Speaker 3: advice you've ever heard or received?

1509
01:09:04,160 --> 01:09:06,879
Speaker 1: Honestly? Like, in a more general term, it's be careful.

1510
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:11,920
Speaker 1: I wanted to recklessly pour myself into my art. I

1511
01:09:11,960 --> 01:09:15,320
Speaker 1: wanted to be risky, and the words I kept getting

1512
01:09:15,439 --> 01:09:17,960
Speaker 1: was be careful, and it made me feel like I

1513
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:20,640
Speaker 1: was doing something wrong. But I love the invitation for

1514
01:09:20,760 --> 01:09:23,640
Speaker 1: artists to rebel, to be the revolution, to just be

1515
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:28,160
Speaker 1: messy and recklessly like throw themselves into this creative life.

1516
01:09:28,320 --> 01:09:30,640
Speaker 3: I just got goosebumps. I was like, that's really Like,

1517
01:09:30,960 --> 01:09:34,639
Speaker 3: it's so right that that cautiousness, which is for safety

1518
01:09:34,800 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 3: but always ends up feeling like it trapped you instead

1519
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 3: of key.

1520
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:38,719
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1521
01:09:38,800 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that. Question number three, what

1522
01:09:42,479 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 3: is the worst piece of art you've ever made? Oh?

1523
01:09:47,600 --> 01:09:50,880
Speaker 1: Man, you should talk to my partner. So we write

1524
01:09:50,880 --> 01:09:53,760
Speaker 1: books together, and so I'll write the first draft and

1525
01:09:53,800 --> 01:09:57,320
Speaker 1: then he'll read it, and watching his face as he

1526
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:58,960
Speaker 1: reads my first draft.

1527
01:09:58,720 --> 01:10:00,960
Speaker 2: He's like, what is the he's here right now?

1528
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:04,000
Speaker 1: And I mean it's because and I pride myself in this.

1529
01:10:04,200 --> 01:10:08,200
Speaker 1: I write spectacularly shitty first drafts, and I'm genuinely proud

1530
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:09,679
Speaker 1: of it because I just word vomit.

1531
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 2: It's just la la la la la.

1532
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:13,879
Speaker 1: There's so much magic in there, but it is difficult

1533
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:16,880
Speaker 1: to navigate as an editor, and poor James really has

1534
01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:19,840
Speaker 1: to wade through some shit. But I'm incredibly proud of

1535
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:20,679
Speaker 1: my first drafts.

1536
01:10:20,800 --> 01:10:21,280
Speaker 3: I love it.

1537
01:10:21,479 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 2: That's great.

1538
01:10:22,120 --> 01:10:24,720
Speaker 3: And what is your favorite piece of art that you've

1539
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:25,439
Speaker 3: ever created.

1540
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: I wrote a fiction book called Regrettably I Am About

1541
01:10:28,320 --> 01:10:31,880
Speaker 1: to Cause Trouble, and it's just that it's that don't

1542
01:10:31,880 --> 01:10:35,240
Speaker 1: be careful kind of vibe. It's a witchy historical fiction

1543
01:10:35,720 --> 01:10:39,479
Speaker 1: like rebel book, and I loved it. Was this reckless,

1544
01:10:39,479 --> 01:10:43,479
Speaker 1: abandoned novel of just throw yourself in. So she has

1545
01:10:43,520 --> 01:10:44,760
Speaker 1: a special place in my heart.

1546
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:47,679
Speaker 3: I love that fifth and final question, which we asked

1547
01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,840
Speaker 3: every guest who's ever been on the show, If you

1548
01:10:49,840 --> 01:10:52,080
Speaker 3: could create a law that everyone in the world had

1549
01:10:52,120 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 3: to follow, what would it be.

1550
01:10:53,760 --> 01:10:57,559
Speaker 1: I want people to make some shitty art. I want

1551
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 1: you to find out what happens when you take affectionism

1552
01:11:00,840 --> 01:11:03,439
Speaker 1: out of the equation and you just let yourself create.

1553
01:11:04,000 --> 01:11:07,639
Speaker 1: So yeah, make shitty art, that's all I want.

1554
01:11:08,120 --> 01:11:10,599
Speaker 3: I love it, Amy mcnege. Everyone in the book is

1555
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,679
Speaker 3: called we Need Your Art. Who don't follow Amy already

1556
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,040
Speaker 3: on Instagram inspired to write Amy, It's been such a joy.

1557
01:11:17,120 --> 01:11:19,120
Speaker 3: I look forward to getting to know you so much more.

1558
01:11:19,520 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 3: I'm so excited for you to continue to create art

1559
01:11:21,640 --> 01:11:24,920
Speaker 3: in this world, and we definitely need your art. So thanks.

1560
01:11:24,960 --> 01:11:27,960
Speaker 3: So happy to connected with your work and found it organically,

1561
01:11:28,040 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 3: fell in love with it, and it honestly does work

1562
01:11:31,160 --> 01:11:33,479
Speaker 3: wonders for me when I'm struggling and figuring things out

1563
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 3: and just go to your page and find something that

1564
01:11:35,520 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 3: resonates very very deeply. So anything I do that helps anyone,

1565
01:11:39,200 --> 01:11:40,400
Speaker 3: you get the credit for it too.

1566
01:11:40,320 --> 01:11:43,599
Speaker 2: Because yes, definitely, I.

1567
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:45,680
Speaker 3: Wouldn't be able to do it without people like yourself. Y.

1568
01:11:46,120 --> 01:11:48,080
Speaker 2: Thank you for your art. We need your art. I'm

1569
01:11:48,200 --> 01:11:49,040
Speaker 2: so grateful for you.

1570
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:52,439
Speaker 3: Thank you. Thanks Amy. If you love this episode, you'll

1571
01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:57,320
Speaker 3: enjoy my conversation with Megan Trainer on breaking generational trauma

1572
01:11:57,479 --> 01:12:00,360
Speaker 3: and how to be confident from the inside. Oh, my

1573
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:03,679
Speaker 3: therapist told me stand in the mirror naked for five minutes.

1574
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:04,679
Speaker 2: It was already tough.

1575
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 3: For me to love my body, but after the C

1576
01:12:06,240 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 3: section scarf with all the stretch marks.

1577
01:12:08,640 --> 01:12:10,679
Speaker 2: Now I'm looking at myself like I've been hacked.

1578
01:12:10,800 --> 01:12:12,880
Speaker 3: But day three, when I did it, I was like,

1579
01:12:13,040 --> 01:12:14,400
Speaker 3: you know what, her thighs are cute