WEBVTT - Psychedelics: Party Drugs or Therapeutics? 0:00:01.400 --> 0:00:05.280 All right, Greg, when are illegal drugs good for your 0:00:05.280 --> 0:00:07.440 mental health? Thought we already talked about this. We might have, 0:00:08.080 --> 0:00:11.119 but we got more to talk about. A new study 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.400 published in Nature Medicine shows that for people suffering with 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:18.079 severe PTSD, the benefit of talk therapy could be greatly 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:23.640 improved with an unlikely drug, MDMA, popularly known as ecstasy. 0:00:24.440 --> 0:00:28.840 Everyone said PTSD can't be cured. I'm leaving proof that 0:00:28.840 --> 0:00:31.840 that isn't truth. MDMA itself, best known as the active 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:35.360 ingredient in ecstasy, wasn't actually criminalized until the mid nineteen eighties. 0:00:35.479 --> 0:00:39.720 This morning, the Drug Enforcement Administration is announcing its intention 0:00:39.840 --> 0:00:43.520 to place the drug known as m DMA under emergency 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:46.280 controls and Schedule One. Fact, there was a gay club 0:00:46.280 --> 0:00:49.080 in Nollas, Texas that was kind of really well known 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:52.000 for kind of being the hub of culture in the 0:00:52.000 --> 0:00:56.000 mid eighties, and as you can probably imagine, a representative 0:00:56.000 --> 0:00:58.520 from Texas heard about this kind of freakeda in Dallas, 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:02.200 hidden federal drug and four agency cameras were rolling for 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:06.039 the first designer drug bust following an emergency fan on 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:10.320 the substance known as ecstasy. Dallas Police, a federal drug agencies, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:13.200 the total of four thousand tablets, but in estimated street 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.880 value of one hundred thousand dollars. It sounds like if 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.160 what you just said was it was a gay club 0:01:19.319 --> 0:01:22.200 in Dallas during the eighties where they were doing ecstasy. 0:01:22.280 --> 0:01:25.520 That's all the things Texas is afraid, though, Do you 0:01:25.560 --> 0:01:28.160 understand what I'm saying? Like these cowboys are having way 0:01:28.200 --> 0:01:31.399 too much fun and then like we gotta shut this down. 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:40.720 I'm Greg Glad, I'm Clayton Engle, and this is the 0:01:40.760 --> 0:01:44.640 war on drugs. Greg. How are you doing, man? I'm 0:01:44.640 --> 0:01:47.760 doing great, Clayton. Yeah, good, good day. Yeah, beautiful day 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.560 in Atlanta today, having a good time. I'm liking your city. Yes, Atlanta, 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:53.400 I hope it's been treating you right. I know the 0:01:53.480 --> 0:01:57.560 uber ride was a little you know, traumatizing. Yeah we can, 0:01:57.640 --> 0:01:58.960 we won't get in there, but yeah it was. He 0:01:59.080 --> 0:02:02.120 did most of a drift. I've been looking back at you. Yeah, 0:02:02.240 --> 0:02:05.200 a lot of picture sharing, um looking at me and 0:02:05.320 --> 0:02:08.400 just bumper to bumper Atlanta traffic a little a little 0:02:08.400 --> 0:02:10.440 little death to fine. But yeah, yeah we're good now. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:12.760 I already know what we're talking about today, but I'm 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.799 gonna ask you before you know, we get anybody here. Okay, 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:20.040 you ever been to you know, a rave, like a 0:02:20.120 --> 0:02:23.560 real rave, like one of them in the warehouse, dabbled, Yeah, 0:02:23.639 --> 0:02:26.720 I've been to. I've been, really I want to go. 0:02:26.800 --> 0:02:29.800 I've been to some events that felt ravesh yeah, but 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.560 they weren't right. So did you do the whole thing? 0:02:32.600 --> 0:02:36.160 Did you participate? Did you take any substances? Well, you 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.000 were there. I don't want to get you in trouble. No, 0:02:38.120 --> 0:02:42.120 I don't know, because you know, I'm they just assume 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.680 I do everything. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, No, I I gotta 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:48.519 keep the key clean cut profile here. Um I'll say no, Um, 0:02:48.600 --> 0:02:50.560 did not participate. And I'd think, you know, we're talking 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:52.960 about like molly and ecstasy and yeah, yeah and things 0:02:53.000 --> 0:02:56.040 like that. But I know I've you know, there's definitely 0:02:56.040 --> 0:02:59.000 always been curiosity just working in this field on effects, 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:03.079 and there's definitely people and around me looks like they're 0:03:03.120 --> 0:03:06.280 having a good time. Yeah, some people do. Yeah, some 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.840 people do. Is I've done. I've done a few things before, yea, 0:03:09.880 --> 0:03:12.160 and yeah the closes I've been to a rabe was 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:18.520 a comic book convention, Yeah, and I was I might 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:21.400 have ate some mushrooms, some mushrooms might have ate me, 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:24.920 who knows? Who knows at this point, right, it's cool 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:27.560 because it's like nerd mardy girl. And it's also like 0:03:28.000 --> 0:03:29.920 that thing they told you, like, you know, when you 0:03:29.919 --> 0:03:32.120 do drugs, you're gonna see all the cartoon characters and 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:35.160 they're gonna come. That's the closest you're ever gonna get 0:03:35.200 --> 0:03:38.440 to it because their cartoon. Everybody's dressed up in these 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:41.119 in these like the Joker was the DJ at the party. 0:03:41.480 --> 0:03:43.960 It was the coolest thing ever. Like Batman wasn't even 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.120 trying to break his neck like Batman was like had 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:51.040 a little oh man fits pumping. That's crazy. Like yeah, no, 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.120 So I've had some good experiences with some of those things. 0:03:54.120 --> 0:03:58.200 But I think, you know, uh, our guest today is 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:01.800 gonna tell us about a whole other way of maybe 0:04:01.800 --> 0:04:05.120 some of these same substances being used for you know, 0:04:05.240 --> 0:04:07.600 the benefit, not that I didn't benefit from that night. 0:04:08.120 --> 0:04:09.880 Had a good time. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:16.320 Writer took home poison ivy or something. Yeah, no, might 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:21.360 smoke some poison. Yeah, man, she would be a great 0:04:21.400 --> 0:04:24.800 weed smokers girl. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, she seems very right 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:30.480 or dye plans grow bigger. Yeah, immediately love her. But yeah, 0:04:30.520 --> 0:04:32.520 I mean, yeah, they're not just for that, and that's 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:34.920 kind of you know, they've been stigmatizing that way that 0:04:35.000 --> 0:04:39.000 you know, kind of psychedelics Molly MDMA, that they're only 0:04:39.040 --> 0:04:42.039 for just like partying and the overdoses that have occurred 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:45.159 from it and all this other stuff. But yeah, our guest, um, 0:04:45.279 --> 0:04:47.800 you know, Ismael Alie is you know, going to talk 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.840 to us. He works at MAPS, which is a organization 0:04:50.960 --> 0:04:57.120 that specialized multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies. So yeah, I'll 0:04:57.160 --> 0:05:01.479 go with MAPS on that. But yeah, no, but yeah, 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:03.560 we had to get the Christian name out. Yeah, because 0:05:03.640 --> 0:05:06.039 you know, I'll say it and then you know, because 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:09.320 I learned so much stuff from you. Yeah, but I 0:05:09.360 --> 0:05:11.800 don't learn all of it. Like I'll learn the name 0:05:12.080 --> 0:05:14.440 like MAPS, and then somebody I'll talk about it in 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:16.400 the real world, somebody like what's that stand for it? 0:05:16.480 --> 0:05:20.840 I'm like, lick man, Just listen to what else I'm 0:05:20.880 --> 0:05:24.200 saying about that. Yeah, you can google it later. Yeah, 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:26.120 you know, I need flash cards to keep up with 0:05:26.160 --> 0:05:28.520 some of this stuff. It's yeah, it's it's a lot. 0:05:28.520 --> 0:05:30.599 I do love this stuff though, because it's so funny, 0:05:30.640 --> 0:05:33.160 like bringing the stuff that you're just interested about, like 0:05:33.279 --> 0:05:35.040 in life, and that you hear here about like this, 0:05:35.120 --> 0:05:37.599 and how they're using like the same stuff that you 0:05:37.640 --> 0:05:41.640 know is the rave scene to potentially cure PTSD. I 0:05:41.680 --> 0:05:44.160 mean that's nuts and all these other things with you know, 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.600 severe depression and anxiety and all the other uses for it. 0:05:47.600 --> 0:05:51.560 It's it's fascinating, um. And then you read about how 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:54.320 we were getting so close to maybe being able to 0:05:54.360 --> 0:05:56.719 use lize this in a medical feel like in the seventies, 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.240 and then just like everything else, you know, the War 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:01.560 on drugs kind of just overtakes it and instead of 0:06:01.920 --> 0:06:04.440 a couple bad things happen where you have an overdose 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.720 here or something else there, or an ABC News report 0:06:06.760 --> 0:06:09.679 comes out, and then everyone's just terrified of this stuff. 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:13.560 And the first inclination is just criminalize it, make the 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:16.760 penalties really strong, and you know, just it cuts off 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:19.120 every medical use. And now you're learning the stuff that 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:23.640 MAPS is doing potentially curing PTSD, particularly combat veterans and 0:06:23.680 --> 0:06:26.800 other people, and you just think, like how many lives 0:06:26.839 --> 0:06:29.960 could have been either saved you know, literally or just 0:06:30.040 --> 0:06:33.560 like you know, metaphysically, where they're just like gone through 0:06:33.560 --> 0:06:35.840 depression their whole life through this, and we have just 0:06:35.920 --> 0:06:38.880 decided this substance is no longer going to be able 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:40.520 to be utilized with this. So the fact that they're 0:06:40.520 --> 0:06:43.400 doing this stuff and hopefully moving towards being able to 0:06:43.480 --> 0:06:46.200 use this in a clinical you know, field, would be amazing. 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:48.240 I mean, just the fact that you're saying being able 0:06:48.240 --> 0:06:52.400 to cure PTSD, yeah, because I don't know if I 0:06:52.440 --> 0:06:54.640 don't know if I've ever even heard people talk about 0:06:54.800 --> 0:06:59.320 curing it like you know, this keep you know, you 0:06:59.320 --> 0:07:01.680 can get your little medicine or something and just try 0:07:01.760 --> 0:07:06.480 to subdue it, but like curious. Yeah. With that being said, 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.640 grote enough from us, let's hear from Ismael himself. Let's 0:07:09.640 --> 0:07:16.679 get it it, Smile. I cannot wait to dive into 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:19.320 everything that we're going to talk about today. But thanks 0:07:19.320 --> 0:07:21.000 for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I'm 0:07:21.040 --> 0:07:22.880 so glad to be here and I'm looking forward to 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.760 having this conversation with you guys. Ye're glad to have you, Smile. 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.200 You know, I'm very familiar with what MAPS does. I'm 0:07:28.240 --> 0:07:30.800 really excited to talk to you today about everything that 0:07:30.880 --> 0:07:34.080 y'all are doing. But for our listeners, you know, talk 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:35.960 a little bit about the history of maps. What's your 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.320 core vision and goals and what do you all know? 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.520 What do you'all do? Yeah, it's it's helpful to know 0:07:40.680 --> 0:07:42.640 about kind of some of the basic history of the 0:07:42.640 --> 0:07:44.440 War on Drugs to understand the history of maps. So 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:46.560 many people are familiar with the passing of the Control 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.360 Substances Act in the early nineteen seventies and then the 0:07:49.400 --> 0:07:51.840 calling of the War on Drugs. What fewer people know 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:55.000 is that MDMA itself, best known as the active ingredient 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:58.080 in ecstasy, wasn't actually criminalized until the mid nineteen eighties. 0:07:58.640 --> 0:08:01.280 It was sort of rediscovered in the lab in the 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.280 late seventies and then kind of utilize in the underground 0:08:04.280 --> 0:08:08.160 in a semi unregulated context as an adjempt to therapy 0:08:08.200 --> 0:08:10.120 for couples and other people in the late seventies and 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.000 early eighties. And it wasn't until MDMA kind of you 0:08:13.040 --> 0:08:15.480 could say, broke out of the therapist office in the 0:08:15.480 --> 0:08:19.480 mid eighties and started getting sold in clubs that the 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.040 kind of criminalization actually started. And in fact it was 0:08:22.160 --> 0:08:24.320 it was a club in Dallas, Texas, a gay club 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:27.120 in Dallas, Texas that was kind of really well known 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.960 for kind of being the hub of ecstacy culture in 0:08:30.000 --> 0:08:32.760 the mid eighties, and as you can probably imagine, a 0:08:33.559 --> 0:08:36.120 representative from Texas heard about this, kind of freaked out 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:40.240 and then kind of petition the DA to emergency schedule 0:08:40.320 --> 0:08:42.280 m DMA. So after a couple that was in nineteen 0:08:42.280 --> 0:08:44.520 eighty four, nineteen eighty five, perhaps it was actually founded 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:47.240 in nineteen eighty six as a response to what was 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:51.559 eventually the Schedule one kind of placement of MDMA after 0:08:51.600 --> 0:08:54.880 this emergency scheduling process. Literally, Clayton, it feels just like 0:08:54.960 --> 0:08:59.440 deja vu. Like every we've talked about, you know, marijuana, cocaine, 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:02.280 all these the things. It's like some bad things happen 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:05.920 where people, you know, abuse the substance experts come out 0:09:05.960 --> 0:09:08.560 and suggest like one way to do something about it, 0:09:08.600 --> 0:09:10.200 like hey, we should make it a Schedule three there's 0:09:10.200 --> 0:09:13.480 certain things, or we should decriminalize, and then the government 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.880 just says, ah, fuck that we know better than you all. 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:19.600 Let's just make it a crime and increasing somebody's really possible. 0:09:19.760 --> 0:09:23.120 Somebody gets scared. And it sounds like if what you 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:27.360 just said was it was a gay club in Dallas 0:09:27.520 --> 0:09:30.280 during the eighties where they were doing ecstasy. That's all 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:33.240 the things Texas is afraid of, exactly. Do you understand 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.640 what I'm saying? Like these cowboys are having way too 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:38.720 much fun and then like we gotta shut this down. 0:09:39.040 --> 0:09:41.160 And actually it's funny because I had a friend who 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:43.760 was at some of those clubs in their early eighties. 0:09:43.800 --> 0:09:45.400 I found out recently. I've known her for years, and 0:09:45.440 --> 0:09:46.800 she was like, yeah, they used to sell it over 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:50.719 the counter in nineteen eight Wow. Imagine being able to 0:09:50.760 --> 0:09:54.200 go up to a bar just good ecstasy, not cut, 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:55.680 you know, not the stuff that you find now on 0:09:55.679 --> 0:09:59.160 the street, but like really anyway, that's right. It's like 0:09:59.200 --> 0:10:02.120 two vaka, so us let others have and let's let's 0:10:02.640 --> 0:10:06.520 because you know, you know, I feel like black people 0:10:06.840 --> 0:10:10.719 didn't know about ecstasy until about the two thousands. I 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:12.880 feel like from my group of people, we saw white 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:14.920 people going crazy. We didn't know what was going on. 0:10:15.440 --> 0:10:17.680 We saw y'all with Vick's vapor rub on your face, 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.520 or you know, they might be rolling blade with glow 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.560 sticks and we were like, what that doesn't look like weed. Yeah, 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:26.200 what are they doing? And then around two thousand we 0:10:26.200 --> 0:10:31.600 were like, oh, that's what they were doing. Well, it's 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:33.640 my kind of on that what we see also, it's 0:10:33.679 --> 0:10:37.200 just communities and people that could really benefit from these 0:10:37.200 --> 0:10:39.680 substances are essentially left out in the dark because they're 0:10:39.679 --> 0:10:42.320 either you know, they're criminally in force. And then also 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:44.319 the research aspects of it, and so I think people 0:10:44.360 --> 0:10:47.800 really do think of you know, MDMA and other psychedelics 0:10:47.840 --> 0:10:49.760 like that as just party drugs, things that people just 0:10:49.800 --> 0:10:51.760 want to do because they you know, want to have 0:10:51.760 --> 0:10:53.360 a good time and has nothing to do with any 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:55.280 treatment or health. A lot of that's because of the 0:10:55.360 --> 0:10:57.480 rhetoric and fear that we've been put into. I remember 0:10:57.480 --> 0:10:59.280 the just say no to drugs commercials and all this 0:10:59.320 --> 0:11:02.080 other stuff, Like I remember being scared. I'd see those things. 0:11:02.120 --> 0:11:04.000 Someone would take a tab and then five minutes later 0:11:04.120 --> 0:11:05.679 be dead in the street, and you know, it's like, well, 0:11:05.720 --> 0:11:08.079 this is what the remember they used to say taking 0:11:08.200 --> 0:11:11.960 ecstasy puts holes in your brain. Yeah, that was that 0:11:12.040 --> 0:11:14.440 was actually a claim made I think on Oprah's show 0:11:14.480 --> 0:11:17.240 in two thousand and one. There were some there there 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:22.560 was i would say misinterpreted uh scans of the brain 0:11:22.600 --> 0:11:24.000 and there are actually two things that were happening at 0:11:24.040 --> 0:11:25.719 the same time. One there was a really well known 0:11:25.800 --> 0:11:27.880 kind of scandal in the early two thousands where it 0:11:27.920 --> 0:11:29.679 became clear that a bunch of the studies that were 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:33.160 supposedly using MBMA were actually using that competitive meum. And 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:35.480 exactly as you said, there was another study that showed 0:11:35.520 --> 0:11:38.640 where the activity of the brain was when something was happening, 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.920 and they interpreted that as it took ice cream scoops 0:11:41.920 --> 0:11:43.560 out of the brain because certain parts of the brain 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:46.560 were shut off. Now, ironically, we know that shutting off 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.559 some of those parts of the brain when the substances 0:11:48.559 --> 0:11:50.680 in your system is actually one of the ways that 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:54.320 it has a therapeutic benefit. Yeah, what does therapy look 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:56.720 like for this? Do think people just have that perception 0:11:56.760 --> 0:11:58.840 that you know, you take it and you sit in 0:11:58.880 --> 0:12:01.319 some room and you to think about some stuff and 0:12:01.520 --> 0:12:03.280 dance and listens to some great music and then just 0:12:03.280 --> 0:12:06.040 trying to figure things out. But obviously there's it's it's 0:12:06.080 --> 0:12:08.120 not that. And so can you talk a little bit 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:10.440 about you know, some of the therapy either with MDMA 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:12.520 or ketamine that we've been hearing about just kind of 0:12:12.520 --> 0:12:14.920 like thirty thousand foot what does that actually look like 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.800 in and what are some of these benefits that we're seeing. Yeah, sure, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:19.760 so I'll talk, I'll talk really broadly, and now i'll 0:12:19.760 --> 0:12:21.600 get a little bit more specifics. So, first off, with 0:12:21.760 --> 0:12:25.120 respect to psychedelic therapy in particular, one of the ways 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:28.000 that it's helpful to characterize psychedelic therapy, so that's any 0:12:28.040 --> 0:12:32.040 therapeutic intervention with any of these psychedelic substances, psychedelics being 0:12:32.520 --> 0:12:36.120 LSD and mushrooms and DMT and in the slightly less 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:40.640 obvious definition drugs like MDMA and ketamine. Generally, the way 0:12:40.760 --> 0:12:45.000 they tend to work has to do less with symptom management, 0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:47.640 which is the way a lot of other psychiatric psychiatric 0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:52.040 medications work, where they're trying to adjust different levels of 0:12:52.080 --> 0:12:55.400 certain receptors in the brain to kind of neutralize or 0:12:55.480 --> 0:12:59.679 mitigate certain extreme or highly limited emotional reactions. That's a 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:01.920 whole lot like SSRIs work. A lot of the current 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.360 kind of psychological pharmaceutical interventions that we have now tend 0:13:06.400 --> 0:13:09.120 to work through a symptom management framework, and that works 0:13:09.120 --> 0:13:11.400 well for some people, it really doesn't work well for others. 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:13.840 But but it's you know, this isn't to say that 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:16.080 those never work or they're not good they just work 0:13:16.120 --> 0:13:17.960 for a limited number of people in a certain number 0:13:18.000 --> 0:13:20.720 of cases. Right, the way that psycho therapy tends to 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:22.880 work is kind of the opposite it actually, it kind 0:13:22.920 --> 0:13:25.880 of opens up channels internally within the psyche to have 0:13:26.240 --> 0:13:29.840 more contact with the thing that's happening, whether that's a 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:33.600 trauma or a depression. In some ways, it's almost like 0:13:33.679 --> 0:13:37.120 an exposure therapy for the mind, where it's saying, like, Okay, 0:13:37.360 --> 0:13:39.600 it's going to change the way that your mind approaches 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.280 a certain problem. It's going to put certain guardrails in place, 0:13:43.679 --> 0:13:45.760 and it's going to allow you to look directly at 0:13:45.800 --> 0:13:47.920 the problem and work with the problem in a way 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.560 that kind of reduces or removes the underlying issue instead 0:13:51.559 --> 0:13:53.480 of just trying to manage the symptoms at the top. 0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.400 And the reason that's important is because it's a little 0:13:56.400 --> 0:14:00.480 bit more I don't like to compare to surgery necessarily, 0:14:00.520 --> 0:14:02.199 but it's a little bit more of a procedure. It's 0:14:02.200 --> 0:14:03.680 not just like you take a pill every day and 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:05.800 you do it. It's more like you have the intervention 0:14:05.840 --> 0:14:07.680 and it allows you to get really deep into the 0:14:07.720 --> 0:14:10.240 trauma or the particular issue that you're dealing with, and 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:12.640 then kind of see it, you know, how to heal 0:14:12.679 --> 0:14:15.400 it at the root, and with MDAMA therapy in particular, 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:17.199 kind of going back to the ice cream scoop thing, 0:14:17.520 --> 0:14:21.680 it actually completely significantly reduces the activity in the amygdala, 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.080 which is the part of the brain that regulates fear. 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.000 So what it does is it puts the brain into 0:14:27.000 --> 0:14:29.760 a state of having less fear or not being able 0:14:29.800 --> 0:14:32.120 to feel the same kind of fear that it might be. 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:35.800 Some people call it fear extinction. And as a result 0:14:35.840 --> 0:14:39.760 of that, it allows people to kind of relate to 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:42.040 what might be a very traumatic memory and memory that 0:14:42.080 --> 0:14:44.280 their brain has otherwise created all kinds of ways to 0:14:44.280 --> 0:14:46.880 get around and to avoid in a way that doesn't 0:14:46.920 --> 0:14:50.080 feel the same fear, and then rebuild the pathways to 0:14:50.120 --> 0:14:52.400 that memory so it doesn't have the same traumatic effect. 0:14:52.480 --> 0:14:56.520 Some people call it as a colloquialism, memory reconsolidation. It's 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:58.680 a way to think about how do you rearrange your 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:02.600 relationship with your memory. Of course, that's a really hard process. 0:15:02.760 --> 0:15:04.440 I like to remind people, especially when I'm in my 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:08.200 advocacy role, that psychedelic therapy, whether it's with MDMA or 0:15:08.280 --> 0:15:10.800 other drugs, is actually not that fun. And it's actually 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:13.160 very hard because it's actually well it does. You know, 0:15:13.200 --> 0:15:15.080 you do have the support from the substance and from 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:18.480 the therapist that are with you to kind of be 0:15:18.560 --> 0:15:20.760 there with that memory. It's still hard to deal with 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:22.920 your own trauma, and it's still a hard, difficult process. 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:25.800 But as a result, people often not always, but often 0:15:26.320 --> 0:15:28.560 feel like when they go through that process it's actually 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.160 more empowering because it's them working through their own work 0:15:31.160 --> 0:15:34.240 with some support to come out on the other side 0:15:34.240 --> 0:15:35.560 in a way that allows them to kind of live 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:37.760 their lives in a different way. I'm glad you said 0:15:37.840 --> 0:15:42.600 that it's work and it's it's not easy because I think, 0:15:42.680 --> 0:15:45.920 you know, when most people probably hear it, I think 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:47.880 some of the people are going to think automatically, like 0:15:47.880 --> 0:15:51.520 you said, celebratory party drug, what benefit could it be? 0:15:51.800 --> 0:15:53.960 And I think other people are like, oh, all I 0:15:54.000 --> 0:15:57.880 gotta do is take m DMA and I'm gonna be good. 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.200 It's like, no, you're gonna have to deal with those 0:16:00.240 --> 0:16:02.560 things and everything that you kind of may say it 0:16:02.640 --> 0:16:05.880 made sense about, like it extinguishes fear. It does that 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:09.800 in a party setting too. You know, you'll you'll start 0:16:09.840 --> 0:16:12.040 talking to people you would never talk to before you 0:16:12.160 --> 0:16:14.720 dancing your ass off. You know what I'm saying. Like, 0:16:18.320 --> 0:16:20.280 we have a few bills to pag so we're gonna 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:28.760 go to a couple commercials right now. Hi, I'm Jason 0:16:28.800 --> 0:16:32.080 flam CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, Home 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:35.000 to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, and 0:16:35.080 --> 0:16:38.720 many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you, our listeners, 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:41.280 to take part in the survey. Your feedback is going 0:16:41.320 --> 0:16:44.480 to help inform how we make podcasts in the future. 0:16:44.720 --> 0:16:47.440 You're complete and candidate. Answers will help us continue to 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:51.520 bring you more insightful and inspiring stories about important topics 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:54.200 that impact us all. So please go to Lava for 0:16:54.320 --> 0:16:58.200 Good dot com slash survey and participate today. Thank you 0:16:58.320 --> 0:17:03.320 for your support. The War on Drugs podcast is sponsored 0:17:03.320 --> 0:17:06.800 by Stand Together. Stand Together is a philanthropic community that 0:17:06.880 --> 0:17:09.800 partners with America's boldest change makers to tackle the root 0:17:09.880 --> 0:17:13.320 causes of our country's biggest problems. The Libertas Institute is 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:15.479 working to solve one of those problems and is fighting 0:17:15.480 --> 0:17:18.840 for common sense reform in Utah. Right now, twenty nine 0:17:18.880 --> 0:17:21.840 percent of adults are experiencing mental health challenges in Utah, 0:17:21.880 --> 0:17:24.240 where the suicide rate is also one and a half 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.760 times of national average. Psilocybin, the psychoactive substance naturally found 0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.120 in mushrooms, is considered by some of the most renowned 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:32.919 medical facilities in the world to be one of the 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.120 most promising sources of hope for people experiencing depression where 0:17:36.119 --> 0:17:39.760 traditional medication has failed. Even though it's safe and effective, 0:17:39.840 --> 0:17:43.600 psilocybin remains classified as the Schedule one drug under federal law. 0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.520 Our neighbors who have not found hope with current treatments 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:49.919 should not have to choose between potentially life saving medication 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.760 and incarceration. The Libertas Institute is working to change state 0:17:53.800 --> 0:17:56.879 law so that patients can use psilocybin under the supervision 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:59.760 of a therapist. To learn more about Stand Together their 0:17:59.760 --> 0:18:02.480 partners or how you can partner with Stand Together. Go 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:13.720 to Stand Together dot org. Okay, so you kind of 0:18:13.760 --> 0:18:18.679 explain the overview of what the therapy, what the goal is, 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:22.159 and what you're trying to do. But what is it like, 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.400 what does it look like once you're in there with 0:18:25.440 --> 0:18:29.520 the therapists and you're tripping. I don't know if that's 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:32.000 the right word, but yeah, yeah, Like how does the 0:18:32.080 --> 0:18:34.840 MDA therapy treatment? How long does it last? Like, yeah, 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:38.480 I'm curious about that too. Yeah, Clayton tripping is actually 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:43.040 the scientific term that we do, so is it if 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:47.520 I did not see that in any scientific paper. So 0:18:47.640 --> 0:18:50.560 the way that the MBMA assisted therapy works, and I'll 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:54.040 clarify now that the indication that we are currently researching 0:18:54.040 --> 0:18:57.439 it for his post traumatic stress disorder, and practically speaking, 0:18:57.440 --> 0:18:58.600 that means that a lot of the people that we 0:18:58.640 --> 0:19:00.560 were working with, of course, have been better ends who've 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:04.199 been to who've dealt with both war and moral injury, 0:19:04.880 --> 0:19:07.640 as well as people who've survived physical or sexual assault 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:10.239 or accidents or kind of other related things. So the 0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:12.840 way that it works though is right now, our protocol 0:19:12.920 --> 0:19:17.600 has it's about twelve to fifteen sessions, only two to 0:19:17.680 --> 0:19:21.200 three of which actually utilize m DUMA. So you have 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:25.080 three preparatory sessions, which are basically normal talk therapy sessions 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.359 in which you know a person is building a relationship 0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:30.679 with a therapist. And in the case of the MDAMA 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:34.720 therapy mobility specifically, there's actually a two therapist team, a 0:19:34.800 --> 0:19:38.720 co therapist team, so the two people who are collaborating 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.719 on the care of this particular person. There's three sessions 0:19:41.720 --> 0:19:43.520 that the two of them have and then they'll have 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:46.960 a six to eight eight hour long session that's with 0:19:47.119 --> 0:19:49.840 the medicine and in that situation. In that case, it's 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:53.359 usually what we call a self directed process. The therapists 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:56.680 are not imposing their own world views on you. They're 0:19:56.680 --> 0:19:58.720 not trying to like they might, like you know, ask 0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:02.000 questions or based on the first few sessions, help you 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.879 deepen your own relationship to whatever the issue is that 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:07.240 you want to work on. But the reason we kind 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:09.840 of focus on self directed therapy in the sense that 0:20:09.840 --> 0:20:11.679 we kind of the therapists are kind of there to 0:20:12.119 --> 0:20:14.760 reflect the empathy that comes out of the MBAMA back 0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.480 toward you, so you can then kind of utilize that 0:20:17.520 --> 0:20:20.040 compassion and empathy on yourself, which is a huge part 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.359 of especially trauma treatment. A lot of that it often 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.200 looks like self forgiveness and other things like that. So 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:28.359