1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:05,280 Speaker 1: All right, Greg, when are illegal drugs good for your 2 00:00:05,280 --> 00:00:07,440 Speaker 1: mental health? Thought we already talked about this. We might have, 3 00:00:08,080 --> 00:00:11,119 Speaker 1: but we got more to talk about. A new study 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: published in Nature Medicine shows that for people suffering with 5 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: severe PTSD, the benefit of talk therapy could be greatly 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:23,640 Speaker 1: improved with an unlikely drug, MDMA, popularly known as ecstasy. 7 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: Everyone said PTSD can't be cured. I'm leaving proof that 8 00:00:28,840 --> 00:00:31,840 Speaker 1: that isn't truth. MDMA itself, best known as the active 9 00:00:31,960 --> 00:00:35,360 Speaker 1: ingredient in ecstasy, wasn't actually criminalized until the mid nineteen eighties. 10 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: This morning, the Drug Enforcement Administration is announcing its intention 11 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:43,520 Speaker 1: to place the drug known as m DMA under emergency 12 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:46,280 Speaker 1: controls and Schedule One. Fact, there was a gay club 13 00:00:46,280 --> 00:00:49,080 Speaker 1: in Nollas, Texas that was kind of really well known 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: for kind of being the hub of culture in the 15 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: mid eighties, and as you can probably imagine, a representative 16 00:00:56,000 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: from Texas heard about this kind of freakeda in Dallas, 17 00:00:58,680 --> 00:01:02,200 Speaker 1: hidden federal drug and four agency cameras were rolling for 18 00:01:02,240 --> 00:01:06,039 Speaker 1: the first designer drug bust following an emergency fan on 19 00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:10,320 Speaker 1: the substance known as ecstasy. Dallas Police, a federal drug agencies, 20 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,200 Speaker 1: the total of four thousand tablets, but in estimated street 21 00:01:13,240 --> 00:01:15,880 Speaker 1: value of one hundred thousand dollars. It sounds like if 22 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:19,160 Speaker 1: what you just said was it was a gay club 23 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:22,200 Speaker 1: in Dallas during the eighties where they were doing ecstasy. 24 00:01:22,280 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: That's all the things Texas is afraid, though, Do you 25 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: understand what I'm saying? Like these cowboys are having way 26 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: too much fun and then like we gotta shut this down. 27 00:01:38,040 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: I'm Greg Glad, I'm Clayton Engle, and this is the 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 1: war on drugs. Greg. How are you doing, man? I'm 29 00:01:44,640 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: doing great, Clayton. Yeah, good, good day. Yeah, beautiful day 30 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: in Atlanta today, having a good time. I'm liking your city. Yes, Atlanta, 31 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:53,400 Speaker 1: I hope it's been treating you right. I know the 32 00:01:53,480 --> 00:01:57,560 Speaker 1: uber ride was a little you know, traumatizing. Yeah we can, 33 00:01:57,640 --> 00:01:58,960 Speaker 1: we won't get in there, but yeah it was. He 34 00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 1: did most of a drift. I've been looking back at you. Yeah, 35 00:02:02,240 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: a lot of picture sharing, um looking at me and 36 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:08,400 Speaker 1: just bumper to bumper Atlanta traffic a little a little 37 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 1: little death to fine. But yeah, yeah we're good now. 38 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:12,760 Speaker 1: I already know what we're talking about today, but I'm 39 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:15,799 Speaker 1: gonna ask you before you know, we get anybody here. Okay, 40 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: you ever been to you know, a rave, like a 41 00:02:20,120 --> 00:02:23,560 Speaker 1: real rave, like one of them in the warehouse, dabbled, Yeah, 42 00:02:23,639 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 1: I've been to. I've been, really I want to go. 43 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: I've been to some events that felt ravesh yeah, but 44 00:02:29,919 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 1: they weren't right. So did you do the whole thing? 45 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: Did you participate? Did you take any substances? Well, you 46 00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,000 Speaker 1: were there. I don't want to get you in trouble. No, 47 00:02:38,120 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, because you know, I'm they just assume 48 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 1: I do everything. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, No, I I gotta 49 00:02:44,760 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: keep the key clean cut profile here. Um I'll say no, Um, 50 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: did not participate. And I'd think, you know, we're talking 51 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:52,960 Speaker 1: about like molly and ecstasy and yeah, yeah and things 52 00:02:53,000 --> 00:02:56,040 Speaker 1: like that. But I know I've you know, there's definitely 53 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: always been curiosity just working in this field on effects, 54 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:03,079 Speaker 1: and there's definitely people and around me looks like they're 55 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: having a good time. Yeah, some people do. Yeah, some 56 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,840 Speaker 1: people do. Is I've done. I've done a few things before, yea, 57 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 1: and yeah the closes I've been to a rabe was 58 00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:18,520 Speaker 1: a comic book convention, Yeah, and I was I might 59 00:03:18,560 --> 00:03:21,400 Speaker 1: have ate some mushrooms, some mushrooms might have ate me, 60 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:24,920 Speaker 1: who knows? Who knows at this point, right, it's cool 61 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: because it's like nerd mardy girl. And it's also like 62 00:03:28,000 --> 00:03:29,920 Speaker 1: that thing they told you, like, you know, when you 63 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: do drugs, you're gonna see all the cartoon characters and 64 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:35,160 Speaker 1: they're gonna come. That's the closest you're ever gonna get 65 00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,440 Speaker 1: to it because their cartoon. Everybody's dressed up in these 66 00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,119 Speaker 1: in these like the Joker was the DJ at the party. 67 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,960 Speaker 1: It was the coolest thing ever. Like Batman wasn't even 68 00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,120 Speaker 1: trying to break his neck like Batman was like had 69 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:51,040 Speaker 1: a little oh man fits pumping. That's crazy. Like yeah, no, 70 00:03:51,280 --> 00:03:54,120 Speaker 1: So I've had some good experiences with some of those things. 71 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:58,200 Speaker 1: But I think, you know, uh, our guest today is 72 00:03:58,240 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 1: gonna tell us about a whole other way of maybe 73 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:05,120 Speaker 1: some of these same substances being used for you know, 74 00:04:05,240 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: the benefit, not that I didn't benefit from that night. 75 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 1: Had a good time. Yeah, you know what I'm saying. 76 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:16,320 Speaker 1: Writer took home poison ivy or something. Yeah, no, might 77 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 1: smoke some poison. Yeah, man, she would be a great 78 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: weed smokers girl. Yeah, absolutely, Yeah, she seems very right 79 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:30,480 Speaker 1: or dye plans grow bigger. Yeah, immediately love her. But yeah, 80 00:04:30,520 --> 00:04:32,520 Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, they're not just for that, and that's 81 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: kind of you know, they've been stigmatizing that way that 82 00:04:35,000 --> 00:04:39,000 Speaker 1: you know, kind of psychedelics Molly MDMA, that they're only 83 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,039 Speaker 1: for just like partying and the overdoses that have occurred 84 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:45,159 Speaker 1: from it and all this other stuff. But yeah, our guest, um, 85 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:47,800 Speaker 1: you know, Ismael Alie is you know, going to talk 86 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,840 Speaker 1: to us. He works at MAPS, which is a organization 87 00:04:50,960 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: that specialized multidisciplinary association for psychedelic studies. So yeah, I'll 88 00:04:57,160 --> 00:05:01,479 Speaker 1: go with MAPS on that. But yeah, no, but yeah, 89 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,560 Speaker 1: we had to get the Christian name out. Yeah, because 90 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: you know, I'll say it and then you know, because 91 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:09,320 Speaker 1: I learned so much stuff from you. Yeah, but I 92 00:05:09,360 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 1: don't learn all of it. Like I'll learn the name 93 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: like MAPS, and then somebody I'll talk about it in 94 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,400 Speaker 1: the real world, somebody like what's that stand for it? 95 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: I'm like, lick man, Just listen to what else I'm 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: saying about that. Yeah, you can google it later. Yeah, 97 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,120 Speaker 1: you know, I need flash cards to keep up with 98 00:05:26,160 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: some of this stuff. It's yeah, it's it's a lot. 99 00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:30,599 Speaker 1: I do love this stuff though, because it's so funny, 100 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,160 Speaker 1: like bringing the stuff that you're just interested about, like 101 00:05:33,279 --> 00:05:35,040 Speaker 1: in life, and that you hear here about like this, 102 00:05:35,120 --> 00:05:37,599 Speaker 1: and how they're using like the same stuff that you 103 00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,640 Speaker 1: know is the rave scene to potentially cure PTSD. I 104 00:05:41,680 --> 00:05:44,160 Speaker 1: mean that's nuts and all these other things with you know, 105 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,600 Speaker 1: severe depression and anxiety and all the other uses for it. 106 00:05:47,600 --> 00:05:51,560 Speaker 1: It's it's fascinating, um. And then you read about how 107 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: we were getting so close to maybe being able to 108 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: use lize this in a medical feel like in the seventies, 109 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 1: and then just like everything else, you know, the War 110 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: on drugs kind of just overtakes it and instead of 111 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: a couple bad things happen where you have an overdose 112 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:06,720 Speaker 1: here or something else there, or an ABC News report 113 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:09,679 Speaker 1: comes out, and then everyone's just terrified of this stuff. 114 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 1: And the first inclination is just criminalize it, make the 115 00:06:13,560 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: penalties really strong, and you know, just it cuts off 116 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:19,120 Speaker 1: every medical use. And now you're learning the stuff that 117 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:23,640 Speaker 1: MAPS is doing potentially curing PTSD, particularly combat veterans and 118 00:06:23,680 --> 00:06:26,800 Speaker 1: other people, and you just think, like how many lives 119 00:06:26,839 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: could have been either saved you know, literally or just 120 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,560 Speaker 1: like you know, metaphysically, where they're just like gone through 121 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:35,840 Speaker 1: depression their whole life through this, and we have just 122 00:06:35,920 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: decided this substance is no longer going to be able 123 00:06:38,880 --> 00:06:40,520 Speaker 1: to be utilized with this. So the fact that they're 124 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,400 Speaker 1: doing this stuff and hopefully moving towards being able to 125 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: use this in a clinical you know, field, would be amazing. 126 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: I mean, just the fact that you're saying being able 127 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: to cure PTSD, yeah, because I don't know if I 128 00:06:52,440 --> 00:06:54,640 Speaker 1: don't know if I've ever even heard people talk about 129 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: curing it like you know, this keep you know, you 130 00:06:59,320 --> 00:07:01,680 Speaker 1: can get your little medicine or something and just try 131 00:07:01,760 --> 00:07:06,480 Speaker 1: to subdue it, but like curious. Yeah. With that being said, 132 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,640 Speaker 1: grote enough from us, let's hear from Ismael himself. Let's 133 00:07:09,640 --> 00:07:16,679 Speaker 1: get it it, Smile. I cannot wait to dive into 134 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: everything that we're going to talk about today. But thanks 135 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. I really appreciate it. I'm 136 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: so glad to be here and I'm looking forward to 137 00:07:22,920 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: having this conversation with you guys. Ye're glad to have you, Smile. 138 00:07:26,080 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: You know, I'm very familiar with what MAPS does. I'm 139 00:07:28,240 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: really excited to talk to you today about everything that 140 00:07:30,880 --> 00:07:34,080 Speaker 1: y'all are doing. But for our listeners, you know, talk 141 00:07:34,080 --> 00:07:35,960 Speaker 1: a little bit about the history of maps. What's your 142 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:38,320 Speaker 1: core vision and goals and what do you all know? 143 00:07:38,320 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: What do you'all do? Yeah, it's it's helpful to know 144 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: about kind of some of the basic history of the 145 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 1: War on Drugs to understand the history of maps. So 146 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: many people are familiar with the passing of the Control 147 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,360 Speaker 1: Substances Act in the early nineteen seventies and then the 148 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: calling of the War on Drugs. What fewer people know 149 00:07:52,000 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: is that MDMA itself, best known as the active ingredient 150 00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 1: in ecstasy, wasn't actually criminalized until the mid nineteen eighties. 151 00:07:58,640 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: It was sort of rediscovered in the lab in the 152 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,280 Speaker 1: late seventies and then kind of utilize in the underground 153 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 1: in a semi unregulated context as an adjempt to therapy 154 00:08:08,200 --> 00:08:10,120 Speaker 1: for couples and other people in the late seventies and 155 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: early eighties. And it wasn't until MDMA kind of you 156 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:15,480 Speaker 1: could say, broke out of the therapist office in the 157 00:08:15,480 --> 00:08:19,480 Speaker 1: mid eighties and started getting sold in clubs that the 158 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 1: kind of criminalization actually started. And in fact it was 159 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 1: it was a club in Dallas, Texas, a gay club 160 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:27,120 Speaker 1: in Dallas, Texas that was kind of really well known 161 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,960 Speaker 1: for kind of being the hub of ecstacy culture in 162 00:08:30,000 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: the mid eighties, and as you can probably imagine, a 163 00:08:33,559 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 1: representative from Texas heard about this, kind of freaked out 164 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:40,240 Speaker 1: and then kind of petition the DA to emergency schedule 165 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:42,280 Speaker 1: m DMA. So after a couple that was in nineteen 166 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: eighty four, nineteen eighty five, perhaps it was actually founded 167 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six as a response to what was 168 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:51,559 Speaker 1: eventually the Schedule one kind of placement of MDMA after 169 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:54,880 Speaker 1: this emergency scheduling process. Literally, Clayton, it feels just like 170 00:08:54,960 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 1: deja vu. Like every we've talked about, you know, marijuana, cocaine, 171 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,280 Speaker 1: all these the things. It's like some bad things happen 172 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: where people, you know, abuse the substance experts come out 173 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:08,560 Speaker 1: and suggest like one way to do something about it, 174 00:09:08,600 --> 00:09:10,200 Speaker 1: like hey, we should make it a Schedule three there's 175 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 1: certain things, or we should decriminalize, and then the government 176 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: just says, ah, fuck that we know better than you all. 177 00:09:15,960 --> 00:09:19,600 Speaker 1: Let's just make it a crime and increasing somebody's really possible. 178 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: Somebody gets scared. And it sounds like if what you 179 00:09:23,240 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: just said was it was a gay club in Dallas 180 00:09:27,520 --> 00:09:30,280 Speaker 1: during the eighties where they were doing ecstasy. That's all 181 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: the things Texas is afraid of, exactly. Do you understand 182 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:35,640 Speaker 1: what I'm saying? Like these cowboys are having way too 183 00:09:35,720 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: much fun and then like we gotta shut this down. 184 00:09:39,040 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: And actually it's funny because I had a friend who 185 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 1: was at some of those clubs in their early eighties. 186 00:09:43,800 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: I found out recently. I've known her for years, and 187 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:46,800 Speaker 1: she was like, yeah, they used to sell it over 188 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:50,719 Speaker 1: the counter in nineteen eight Wow. Imagine being able to 189 00:09:50,760 --> 00:09:54,200 Speaker 1: go up to a bar just good ecstasy, not cut, 190 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:55,680 Speaker 1: you know, not the stuff that you find now on 191 00:09:55,679 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: the street, but like really anyway, that's right. It's like 192 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: two vaka, so us let others have and let's let's 193 00:10:02,640 --> 00:10:06,520 Speaker 1: because you know, you know, I feel like black people 194 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:10,719 Speaker 1: didn't know about ecstasy until about the two thousands. I 195 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: feel like from my group of people, we saw white 196 00:10:12,880 --> 00:10:14,920 Speaker 1: people going crazy. We didn't know what was going on. 197 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,680 Speaker 1: We saw y'all with Vick's vapor rub on your face, 198 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: or you know, they might be rolling blade with glow 199 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:23,560 Speaker 1: sticks and we were like, what that doesn't look like weed. Yeah, 200 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,200 Speaker 1: what are they doing? And then around two thousand we 201 00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:31,600 Speaker 1: were like, oh, that's what they were doing. Well, it's 202 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: my kind of on that what we see also, it's 203 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,200 Speaker 1: just communities and people that could really benefit from these 204 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,680 Speaker 1: substances are essentially left out in the dark because they're 205 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:42,320 Speaker 1: either you know, they're criminally in force. And then also 206 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:44,319 Speaker 1: the research aspects of it, and so I think people 207 00:10:44,360 --> 00:10:47,800 Speaker 1: really do think of you know, MDMA and other psychedelics 208 00:10:47,840 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: like that as just party drugs, things that people just 209 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: want to do because they you know, want to have 210 00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: a good time and has nothing to do with any 211 00:10:53,360 --> 00:10:55,280 Speaker 1: treatment or health. A lot of that's because of the 212 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:57,480 Speaker 1: rhetoric and fear that we've been put into. I remember 213 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,280 Speaker 1: the just say no to drugs commercials and all this 214 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 1: other stuff, Like I remember being scared. I'd see those things. 215 00:11:02,120 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 1: Someone would take a tab and then five minutes later 216 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:05,679 Speaker 1: be dead in the street, and you know, it's like, well, 217 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,079 Speaker 1: this is what the remember they used to say taking 218 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 1: ecstasy puts holes in your brain. Yeah, that was that 219 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,440 Speaker 1: was actually a claim made I think on Oprah's show 220 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,240 Speaker 1: in two thousand and one. There were some there there 221 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:22,560 Speaker 1: was i would say misinterpreted uh scans of the brain 222 00:11:22,600 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: and there are actually two things that were happening at 223 00:11:24,040 --> 00:11:25,719 Speaker 1: the same time. One there was a really well known 224 00:11:25,800 --> 00:11:27,880 Speaker 1: kind of scandal in the early two thousands where it 225 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:29,679 Speaker 1: became clear that a bunch of the studies that were 226 00:11:29,679 --> 00:11:33,160 Speaker 1: supposedly using MBMA were actually using that competitive meum. And 227 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,480 Speaker 1: exactly as you said, there was another study that showed 228 00:11:35,520 --> 00:11:38,640 Speaker 1: where the activity of the brain was when something was happening, 229 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: and they interpreted that as it took ice cream scoops 230 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: out of the brain because certain parts of the brain 231 00:11:43,600 --> 00:11:46,560 Speaker 1: were shut off. Now, ironically, we know that shutting off 232 00:11:46,600 --> 00:11:48,559 Speaker 1: some of those parts of the brain when the substances 233 00:11:48,559 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: in your system is actually one of the ways that 234 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 1: it has a therapeutic benefit. Yeah, what does therapy look 235 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,720 Speaker 1: like for this? Do think people just have that perception 236 00:11:56,760 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: that you know, you take it and you sit in 237 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 1: some room and you to think about some stuff and 238 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:03,280 Speaker 1: dance and listens to some great music and then just 239 00:12:03,280 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 1: trying to figure things out. But obviously there's it's it's 240 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: not that. And so can you talk a little bit 241 00:12:08,160 --> 00:12:10,440 Speaker 1: about you know, some of the therapy either with MDMA 242 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,520 Speaker 1: or ketamine that we've been hearing about just kind of 243 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: like thirty thousand foot what does that actually look like 244 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:17,800 Speaker 1: in and what are some of these benefits that we're seeing. Yeah, sure, 245 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,760 Speaker 1: so I'll talk, I'll talk really broadly, and now i'll 246 00:12:19,760 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: get a little bit more specifics. So, first off, with 247 00:12:21,760 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: respect to psychedelic therapy in particular, one of the ways 248 00:12:25,200 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: that it's helpful to characterize psychedelic therapy, so that's any 249 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:32,040 Speaker 1: therapeutic intervention with any of these psychedelic substances, psychedelics being 250 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,120 Speaker 1: LSD and mushrooms and DMT and in the slightly less 251 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: obvious definition drugs like MDMA and ketamine. Generally, the way 252 00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:45,000 Speaker 1: they tend to work has to do less with symptom management, 253 00:12:45,040 --> 00:12:47,640 Speaker 1: which is the way a lot of other psychiatric psychiatric 254 00:12:47,679 --> 00:12:52,040 Speaker 1: medications work, where they're trying to adjust different levels of 255 00:12:52,080 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: certain receptors in the brain to kind of neutralize or 256 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,679 Speaker 1: mitigate certain extreme or highly limited emotional reactions. That's a 257 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:01,920 Speaker 1: whole lot like SSRIs work. A lot of the current 258 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:06,360 Speaker 1: kind of psychological pharmaceutical interventions that we have now tend 259 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:09,120 Speaker 1: to work through a symptom management framework, and that works 260 00:13:09,120 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 1: well for some people, it really doesn't work well for others. 261 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,840 Speaker 1: But but it's you know, this isn't to say that 262 00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:16,080 Speaker 1: those never work or they're not good they just work 263 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: for a limited number of people in a certain number 264 00:13:18,000 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: of cases. Right, the way that psycho therapy tends to 265 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:22,880 Speaker 1: work is kind of the opposite it actually, it kind 266 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:25,880 Speaker 1: of opens up channels internally within the psyche to have 267 00:13:26,240 --> 00:13:29,840 Speaker 1: more contact with the thing that's happening, whether that's a 268 00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: trauma or a depression. In some ways, it's almost like 269 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 1: an exposure therapy for the mind, where it's saying, like, Okay, 270 00:13:37,360 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: it's going to change the way that your mind approaches 271 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 1: a certain problem. It's going to put certain guardrails in place, 272 00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:45,760 Speaker 1: and it's going to allow you to look directly at 273 00:13:45,800 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: the problem and work with the problem in a way 274 00:13:47,960 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: that kind of reduces or removes the underlying issue instead 275 00:13:51,559 --> 00:13:53,480 Speaker 1: of just trying to manage the symptoms at the top. 276 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:56,400 Speaker 1: And the reason that's important is because it's a little 277 00:13:56,400 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: bit more I don't like to compare to surgery necessarily, 278 00:14:00,520 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 1: but it's a little bit more of a procedure. It's 279 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:03,680 Speaker 1: not just like you take a pill every day and 280 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: you do it. It's more like you have the intervention 281 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:07,680 Speaker 1: and it allows you to get really deep into the 282 00:14:07,720 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 1: trauma or the particular issue that you're dealing with, and 283 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: then kind of see it, you know, how to heal 284 00:14:12,679 --> 00:14:15,400 Speaker 1: it at the root, and with MDAMA therapy in particular, 285 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:17,199 Speaker 1: kind of going back to the ice cream scoop thing, 286 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,680 Speaker 1: it actually completely significantly reduces the activity in the amygdala, 287 00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: which is the part of the brain that regulates fear. 288 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:27,000 Speaker 1: So what it does is it puts the brain into 289 00:14:27,000 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 1: a state of having less fear or not being able 290 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:32,120 Speaker 1: to feel the same kind of fear that it might be. 291 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:35,800 Speaker 1: Some people call it fear extinction. And as a result 292 00:14:35,840 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 1: of that, it allows people to kind of relate to 293 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: what might be a very traumatic memory and memory that 294 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,280 Speaker 1: their brain has otherwise created all kinds of ways to 295 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,880 Speaker 1: get around and to avoid in a way that doesn't 296 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: feel the same fear, and then rebuild the pathways to 297 00:14:50,120 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: that memory so it doesn't have the same traumatic effect. 298 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: Some people call it as a colloquialism, memory reconsolidation. It's 299 00:14:56,520 --> 00:14:58,680 Speaker 1: a way to think about how do you rearrange your 300 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:02,600 Speaker 1: relationship with your memory. Of course, that's a really hard process. 301 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:04,440 Speaker 1: I like to remind people, especially when I'm in my 302 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 1: advocacy role, that psychedelic therapy, whether it's with MDMA or 303 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: other drugs, is actually not that fun. And it's actually 304 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: very hard because it's actually well it does. You know, 305 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:15,080 Speaker 1: you do have the support from the substance and from 306 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:18,480 Speaker 1: the therapist that are with you to kind of be 307 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: there with that memory. It's still hard to deal with 308 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 1: your own trauma, and it's still a hard, difficult process. 309 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: But as a result, people often not always, but often 310 00:15:26,320 --> 00:15:28,560 Speaker 1: feel like when they go through that process it's actually 311 00:15:28,560 --> 00:15:31,160 Speaker 1: more empowering because it's them working through their own work 312 00:15:31,160 --> 00:15:34,240 Speaker 1: with some support to come out on the other side 313 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:35,560 Speaker 1: in a way that allows them to kind of live 314 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:37,760 Speaker 1: their lives in a different way. I'm glad you said 315 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: that it's work and it's it's not easy because I think, 316 00:15:42,680 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: you know, when most people probably hear it, I think 317 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:47,880 Speaker 1: some of the people are going to think automatically, like 318 00:15:47,880 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: you said, celebratory party drug, what benefit could it be? 319 00:15:51,800 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 1: And I think other people are like, oh, all I 320 00:15:54,000 --> 00:15:57,880 Speaker 1: gotta do is take m DMA and I'm gonna be good. 321 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,200 Speaker 1: It's like, no, you're gonna have to deal with those 322 00:16:00,240 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: things and everything that you kind of may say it 323 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:05,880 Speaker 1: made sense about, like it extinguishes fear. It does that 324 00:16:06,000 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: in a party setting too. You know, you'll you'll start 325 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 1: talking to people you would never talk to before you 326 00:16:12,160 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: dancing your ass off. You know what I'm saying. Like, 327 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:20,280 Speaker 1: we have a few bills to pag so we're gonna 328 00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: go to a couple commercials right now. Hi, I'm Jason 329 00:16:28,800 --> 00:16:32,080 Speaker 1: flam CEO and founder of Lava for Good podcasts, Home 330 00:16:32,120 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: to Bone Valley, Wrongful Conviction, The War on Drugs, and 331 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: many other great podcasts. Today we're asking you, our listeners, 332 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:41,280 Speaker 1: to take part in the survey. Your feedback is going 333 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 1: to help inform how we make podcasts in the future. 334 00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:47,440 Speaker 1: You're complete and candidate. 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Right now, twenty nine 344 00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:21,840 Speaker 1: percent of adults are experiencing mental health challenges in Utah, 345 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 1: where the suicide rate is also one and a half 346 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:28,760 Speaker 1: times of national average. Psilocybin, the psychoactive substance naturally found 347 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:31,120 Speaker 1: in mushrooms, is considered by some of the most renowned 348 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:32,919 Speaker 1: medical facilities in the world to be one of the 349 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:36,120 Speaker 1: most promising sources of hope for people experiencing depression where 350 00:17:36,119 --> 00:17:39,760 Speaker 1: traditional medication has failed. Even though it's safe and effective, 351 00:17:39,840 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: psilocybin remains classified as the Schedule one drug under federal law. 352 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,520 Speaker 1: Our neighbors who have not found hope with current treatments 353 00:17:46,600 --> 00:17:49,919 Speaker 1: should not have to choose between potentially life saving medication 354 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: and incarceration. The Libertas Institute is working to change state 355 00:17:53,800 --> 00:17:56,879 Speaker 1: law so that patients can use psilocybin under the supervision 356 00:17:56,920 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 1: of a therapist. To learn more about Stand Together their 357 00:17:59,760 --> 00:18:02,480 Speaker 1: partners or how you can partner with Stand Together. Go 358 00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 1: to Stand Together dot org. Okay, so you kind of 359 00:18:13,760 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: explain the overview of what the therapy, what the goal is, 360 00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:22,159 Speaker 1: and what you're trying to do. But what is it like, 361 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 1: what does it look like once you're in there with 362 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: the therapists and you're tripping. I don't know if that's 363 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 1: the right word, but yeah, yeah, Like how does the 364 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:34,840 Speaker 1: MDA therapy treatment? How long does it last? Like, yeah, 365 00:18:34,840 --> 00:18:38,480 Speaker 1: I'm curious about that too. Yeah, Clayton tripping is actually 366 00:18:38,520 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: the scientific term that we do, so is it if 367 00:18:43,080 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: I did not see that in any scientific paper. So 368 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 1: the way that the MBMA assisted therapy works, and I'll 369 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: clarify now that the indication that we are currently researching 370 00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:57,439 Speaker 1: it for his post traumatic stress disorder, and practically speaking, 371 00:18:57,440 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 1: that means that a lot of the people that we 372 00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:00,560 Speaker 1: were working with, of course, have been better ends who've 373 00:19:00,600 --> 00:19:04,199 Speaker 1: been to who've dealt with both war and moral injury, 374 00:19:04,880 --> 00:19:07,640 Speaker 1: as well as people who've survived physical or sexual assault 375 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:10,239 Speaker 1: or accidents or kind of other related things. So the 376 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:12,840 Speaker 1: way that it works though is right now, our protocol 377 00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:17,600 Speaker 1: has it's about twelve to fifteen sessions, only two to 378 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: three of which actually utilize m DUMA. So you have 379 00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:25,080 Speaker 1: three preparatory sessions, which are basically normal talk therapy sessions 380 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,359 Speaker 1: in which you know a person is building a relationship 381 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:30,679 Speaker 1: with a therapist. And in the case of the MDAMA 382 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: therapy mobility specifically, there's actually a two therapist team, a 383 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,720 Speaker 1: co therapist team, so the two people who are collaborating 384 00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,719 Speaker 1: on the care of this particular person. There's three sessions 385 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: that the two of them have and then they'll have 386 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,960 Speaker 1: a six to eight eight hour long session that's with 387 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: the medicine and in that situation. In that case, it's 388 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 1: usually what we call a self directed process. The therapists 389 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: are not imposing their own world views on you. They're 390 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,720 Speaker 1: not trying to like they might, like you know, ask 391 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 1: questions or based on the first few sessions, help you 392 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 1: deepen your own relationship to whatever the issue is that 393 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: you want to work on. But the reason we kind 394 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: of focus on self directed therapy in the sense that 395 00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: we kind of the therapists are kind of there to 396 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: reflect the empathy that comes out of the MBAMA back 397 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: toward you, so you can then kind of utilize that 398 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:20,040 Speaker 1: compassion and empathy on yourself, which is a huge part 399 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,359 Speaker 1: of especially trauma treatment. A lot of that it often 400 00:20:22,400 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: looks like self forgiveness and other things like that. So 401 00:20:25,520 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: they'll have the three preparatory set three or four preparatory sessions, 402 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:30,479 Speaker 1: they'll have the medicine assistant sessions, and then they'll have 403 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:34,600 Speaker 1: a couple or a handful of integration sessions, and those sessions, 404 00:20:34,640 --> 00:20:38,000 Speaker 1: again are short normal one hour long sessions where the 405 00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:41,640 Speaker 1: patient is then talking through what they've learned in that 406 00:20:41,800 --> 00:20:44,840 Speaker 1: longer session with the medicine to integrate that into their 407 00:20:44,840 --> 00:20:46,520 Speaker 1: lives and see what can they learn from that, how 408 00:20:46,560 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: do they grow from that, where were they stuck, etc. 409 00:20:49,359 --> 00:20:51,600 Speaker 1: And then they might do that whole process again and 410 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: then maybe maybe one more time. Right now, our Phase 411 00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:58,160 Speaker 1: three protocol only has up to three MDMA assistant sessions 412 00:20:58,160 --> 00:21:01,600 Speaker 1: with the pre and post kind of prep and integration 413 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: sessions that occurring before and after. So what that basically 414 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: looks like is a two to three months long procedure 415 00:21:07,640 --> 00:21:10,920 Speaker 1: where you have multiple sessions, only a couple or a 416 00:21:10,960 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 1: few of which are you know, have medicine assisted as 417 00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: part of the those sessions, and the therapists are really 418 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:21,240 Speaker 1: there to kind of guide your process into yourself. What's 419 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:23,919 Speaker 1: the efficacy of this treatment compared to you know, current 420 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: you know therapy, you know, particularly for treating PTSD. You 421 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,280 Speaker 1: had mentioned that you guys are doing studies right now. 422 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: Just talk through a little bit about that if you could. Yeah. Yeah, 423 00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:36,159 Speaker 1: So the Phase two trial that we did, which was 424 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 1: published at the end of twenty sixteen, showed a sixty 425 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: two percent that's sixty two percent of the people who 426 00:21:45,760 --> 00:21:48,919 Speaker 1: went through the trial no longer qualified for having PTSD 427 00:21:49,400 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 1: at the end of that trial. And what I thought 428 00:21:51,680 --> 00:21:53,960 Speaker 1: was really interesting about that is that the one year 429 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: follow up that number actually increased to sixty eight percent, 430 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: which to me, I think show is really the effectiveness 431 00:22:00,040 --> 00:22:02,480 Speaker 1: not just of the drug, but of the empowerment and 432 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 1: of the value that the experience has for people to 433 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: then make changes in their own lives. And I think 434 00:22:07,119 --> 00:22:09,840 Speaker 1: that's a key piece here where we're not trying to 435 00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,960 Speaker 1: get people dependent on another drug. We're really trying to 436 00:22:13,000 --> 00:22:14,840 Speaker 1: make sure that people can figure out how to empower 437 00:22:14,880 --> 00:22:17,880 Speaker 1: themselves to make the decisions that they need. So that 438 00:22:17,880 --> 00:22:22,240 Speaker 1: that's that's one teacher man at a point, Yeah, exactly exactly. 439 00:22:22,280 --> 00:22:24,800 Speaker 1: And you can kind of like put some sale in there, 440 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:26,399 Speaker 1: you know, put some win in their sales, sale in 441 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:29,199 Speaker 1: the right, a win in their sales to kind of 442 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:31,960 Speaker 1: move them forward and support them and kind of building 443 00:22:32,000 --> 00:22:34,400 Speaker 1: their own life independently of like having to be dependent 444 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: on anything necessarily. And that, if I'm not mistaken, our 445 00:22:37,200 --> 00:22:41,280 Speaker 1: Phase three result there was a similar efficacy. I think 446 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 1: it was sixty six percent from that one, So it's 447 00:22:43,760 --> 00:22:47,240 Speaker 1: it's pretty it's pretty impressive compared to other modalities, especially 448 00:22:47,280 --> 00:22:49,520 Speaker 1: because it's not like an ongoing thing, and I think 449 00:22:49,560 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: that's partially a testament to the mechanism that it works. 450 00:22:53,200 --> 00:22:55,199 Speaker 1: Of course, that doesn't mean that people come out like 451 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: totally healed and cured. People still struggle, people still have 452 00:22:58,320 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: a lot of issues that they have to deal with 453 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: because life is happening. But there's no question that for 454 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: a good number of people, when they're working with a 455 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 1: particular trauma, they do tend to benefit from that modality 456 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:10,680 Speaker 1: in a way that's different from the way they mind 457 00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:13,600 Speaker 1: from other kinds of modalities. Wow. Yeah, I think I'm 458 00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:17,360 Speaker 1: reading from the study that two months after the final session, 459 00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,119 Speaker 1: about two thirds of people who received MBMA assisted therapy 460 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,960 Speaker 1: no longer met the diagnosic criteria for PTSD, compared with 461 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:27,040 Speaker 1: one third of those who received the PLACEDO. So that's 462 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: on that third trial that you're talking about, which is amazing. So, 463 00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:33,159 Speaker 1: you know, we we've talked about it in kind of 464 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 1: the PTSD realm. What other you know, therapeutic uses do 465 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,560 Speaker 1: you see either that have been studied or do you 466 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 1: feel like would translate very effectively. I remember, like Clay 467 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:45,720 Speaker 1: were actually we're talking about it before. Like I don't 468 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:47,280 Speaker 1: know if it's just like TV shows and things like that, 469 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:48,880 Speaker 1: but I felt like therapist back in like the sixty 470 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,679 Speaker 1: seventies would give it to like married couples to like 471 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: sort out their stuff during like counseling and things like that. Yeah, 472 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: like marriage, because I used to always say about MDMA, 473 00:23:57,160 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 1: like nobody needs to feel that good. If you feel 474 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 1: that bad, maybe you do need to feel that good 475 00:24:05,880 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 1: to get you brought out of however you feel is 476 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:11,520 Speaker 1: so yeah, but we were talking about like counseling before. 477 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, that's that's hilarious actually because you know, 478 00:24:15,400 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 1: I kind it kind of depends on you on your 479 00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 1: framework too, because it's like, you know, like is that 480 00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: okay that people feel good. We also, as kind of 481 00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 1: a side note, we have we have a bit of 482 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 1: a fear of pleasure in our country. That's another kind 483 00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: of another part of the pure ten thing where it's like, oh, 484 00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:31,200 Speaker 1: people aren't allowed to feel good, Like don't don't think 485 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:33,000 Speaker 1: that your healing can feel good. It has to be 486 00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 1: hard to work, and people are it's hard for people 487 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,800 Speaker 1: to imagine they can be both hard work and feel 488 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,639 Speaker 1: good at the same time I have that it's like 489 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:41,119 Speaker 1: something taste too good or something like that. I'm like, well, 490 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:44,960 Speaker 1: this is this this guy. Yeah, it's not gonna work. Yeah, 491 00:24:45,000 --> 00:24:49,560 Speaker 1: it's gotta beat yes. Um. So yeah, to answer your question, 492 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:51,239 Speaker 1: so there's a couple of what I'll do maybe right 493 00:24:51,240 --> 00:24:55,119 Speaker 1: now is list off some of them the different indications 494 00:24:55,160 --> 00:24:57,719 Speaker 1: that not the MDMA but also other psychedelics are being 495 00:24:57,760 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 1: steadied for. Um. And you know, it's important to clarify 496 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:03,439 Speaker 1: that people are studying these that doesn't necessarily mean that 497 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: it's effective for all these things. So you're absolutely right 498 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,040 Speaker 1: by the way. First off, so MBMA itself was totally 499 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: utilized for couples counseling in the late seventies and early eighties. 500 00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:14,920 Speaker 1: That was one of the first kind of indications or 501 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: first kind of methods that it was used to bring 502 00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:22,040 Speaker 1: in to treat people in the underground or like in 503 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: the kind of preregulated era you could say. And today 504 00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 1: there's probably a dozen different indications that MDMA itself is 505 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: being studied for. I know that cities that we've conducted 506 00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:37,800 Speaker 1: include end of life anxiety, social anxiety for adults with autism, 507 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: and I think that with psychedelics more broadly, including psilocybin LSD. 508 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:47,359 Speaker 1: You're also seeing treatment for alcoholism, various forms of depression, 509 00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:51,439 Speaker 1: various forms of anxiety. I think that one of the 510 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,960 Speaker 1: most interesting things that I've seen so far is the 511 00:25:56,119 --> 00:26:00,439 Speaker 1: use of certain psychedelic substances, including psilocybin for example, but 512 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: also I begain and others, as a treatment for different 513 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: forms of addiction and dependency. So there's a few really 514 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,399 Speaker 1: well known studies about psilocybin for smoking cessation to bacco 515 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,800 Speaker 1: smoking cessation, which I think is quite interesting. And just 516 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,720 Speaker 1: for listen, mushrooms exactly, pilocybon being the active ingredient mushrooms. 517 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:20,920 Speaker 1: And I think that that that's something that really breaks 518 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:23,480 Speaker 1: people's brains, the possibility of using drugs to get people 519 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: off of drugs'. There's this meme that's basically like, eventually 520 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,320 Speaker 1: you get to the point where it's not just your 521 00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: parents or society telling you to stop doing drugs, it's 522 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 1: the drugs that are telling you to stop doing drugs. 523 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 1: And I think that's funny because because like it really 524 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: is about this kind of perception that when you do 525 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 1: deep reflective work with yourself, when you have access to 526 00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:46,360 Speaker 1: your own kind of spiritual or emotional body that what 527 00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:48,840 Speaker 1: you get told by yourself is how to be in 528 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:51,560 Speaker 1: better balance. And balance looks like a lot of different 529 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: things for different people, but ultimately balance is a kind 530 00:26:56,040 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: of wholeness or holisticness. Is a way that people look 531 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:02,040 Speaker 1: at how I be less dependent on things? How do 532 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: I use fear of coping mechanisms. Another way that people 533 00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:06,640 Speaker 1: are looking at this is through the frame of group therapy. 534 00:27:07,000 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: Not everyone heals and then one on one context, so 535 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:13,320 Speaker 1: bringing in group therapy, community therapy. I myself have done 536 00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,159 Speaker 1: some really deep work with certain medicines with my family, 537 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:19,399 Speaker 1: with multiple members and generations of my family. After my 538 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:21,680 Speaker 1: mother passed away in twenty thirteen, I've been doing work 539 00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,520 Speaker 1: with my family for the last almost ten years to 540 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 1: really work through our grief as a collective. Yeah, I 541 00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: love the family therapy Aspecyah. My family therapy was always 542 00:27:30,880 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 1: just huck it deep down inside and never speak about 543 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: it again and then just lash out randomly at people 544 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,720 Speaker 1: you love for no apparent reason. Very healthy, incredibly healthy. 545 00:27:41,840 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: I'm a good old fashioned American Irish light there. Yeah, 546 00:27:46,600 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: this has been absolutely amazing. I've really really enjoyed this talk, 547 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: and you know, yeah, like you said, the only thing 548 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,040 Speaker 1: that's I mean, it's just like that, you know, I 549 00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:56,879 Speaker 1: think we were almost at a point to get this 550 00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,560 Speaker 1: so much further along, and the fact that we're still 551 00:28:00,600 --> 00:28:03,240 Speaker 1: kind of in this trial stages. It's probably very frustrating 552 00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: you as well seeing the efficacy of it. But hopefully, 553 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,000 Speaker 1: I mean, the worth that ye all are doing is 554 00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: is the only reason that this is really hopefully going 555 00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:10,320 Speaker 1: to get out there and we can get this to 556 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:14,760 Speaker 1: a larger scale as this time. Yeah, right of severe PTSD. 557 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 1: That's big, It's amazing. That's Steph. Sorry, that's Steph Curry 558 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:24,200 Speaker 1: on a great night. Yeah, yeah, yeah, So thank you again. 559 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,440 Speaker 1: This has been terrific and we hope to speak you soon. 560 00:28:26,520 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Really appreciate you our questions on 561 00:28:28,400 --> 00:28:32,040 Speaker 1: my time with you guys. Clayton wasn't cheap to get 562 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:33,680 Speaker 1: so we had to cut a couple of commercials. We'll 563 00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 1: be right back. Somebody gotta pay me, Clayton. We love 564 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: origin stories on this show, hey man. This show is 565 00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: one big origin story. Yeah. Yeah, so I have the 566 00:28:56,560 --> 00:28:59,920 Speaker 1: origin story of mdma um kind of the modern day 567 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 1: use of it. So it was made like in the 568 00:29:01,560 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 1: nineteen tens or that far back. Yeah, they didn't really 569 00:29:05,200 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: know what to do with it. And then finally this 570 00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: man who's known as like the godfather of ecstasy, he 571 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,200 Speaker 1: was the first person to kind of like figure out, um, 572 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,480 Speaker 1: like the kind of the therapeutic uses of it. So 573 00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 1: nineteen twelve is when it was actually invented, but no 574 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,160 Speaker 1: one could really do anything with it, and they probably 575 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:24,640 Speaker 1: wasn't fun in nineteen twelve. It wasn't no glow sticks. Now, like, 576 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: you know, there's a lot of stuff that they you know, 577 00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: they probably don't even have vapor rub like that. Yet 578 00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:32,640 Speaker 1: suppose some guy in the violin you're vibe into it, 579 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,280 Speaker 1: like I don't know, it doesn't hit the same way, 580 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:38,800 Speaker 1: no bass dropping. Yeah, yeah, and so yeah, An Sholgan 581 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 1: and Alexander Shulgan they were the first people to fit. 582 00:29:42,680 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 1: They didn't invent ecstasy, but they were the first people 583 00:29:44,520 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 1: to figure out like this could be used in therapy 584 00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 1: and very effectively either PTSD, couples, counseling, things like that. 585 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: Like they did all this so extasy at this point 586 00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 1: is legal, um, and so they're doing these things. But 587 00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: also on the side, they were inventing new drugs, old 588 00:29:59,160 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 1: break that down for people, so kind of like moving 589 00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:05,960 Speaker 1: around a certain molecule of taking something out is how So. Yeah, 590 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 1: they would develop like literally invents and experiment with hundreds 591 00:30:09,960 --> 00:30:12,360 Speaker 1: of psychedelic drugs that you know, he and she would 592 00:30:12,400 --> 00:30:17,239 Speaker 1: concoct in their laboratory in California. It's pretty remarkable. They 593 00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:19,960 Speaker 1: call themselves psychonots. They would have like little doses of 594 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: these things that they concocted, and then they would like 595 00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 1: bring their friends over, not bad friends, to have good friends. 596 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,280 Speaker 1: Most friends come over and use up your drugs, right, 597 00:30:28,680 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: and if they're inviting you over to try new drugs, like, 598 00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:36,320 Speaker 1: that's crazy that they just whip up drugs and triumph 599 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,440 Speaker 1: on their friends. Yeah, it's nuts. I think they said 600 00:30:38,440 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 1: that she's done like two thousand, you know, psychedelicturs in 601 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: her life, and their husband did four thousand. That seems 602 00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:47,320 Speaker 1: like a pretty big fish. Will Chamberlain numbers. Yeah, when 603 00:30:47,320 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: did you have time? My psychedelic trips last for hours. 604 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: You must have been like on a double yeah, clocked in. 605 00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: He literally ninety five years. Like inventing new psychoactive drugs 606 00:30:59,880 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 1: is composing new music, that's what he said, you know. 607 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,120 Speaker 1: And so these people were on the cutting edge of 608 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: what they're doing, and then it was you know, banned. 609 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty five, they finally made extasy schedule one drug, 610 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:13,840 Speaker 1: and a lot of that research and a lot of 611 00:31:13,840 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: that development from a therapeutic use was just it's gone 612 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,719 Speaker 1: um kind of up until you know, MAPS have been 613 00:31:20,720 --> 00:31:23,240 Speaker 1: able to do what they're doing with a very narrowed exception, 614 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: you know, through that, So the treatment and therapy that 615 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: we're seeing again in that medical setting like literally cure 616 00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: people of severe PTSDA. So I'm you know, I'm happy 617 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: Anne was able to see, you know, the world. I'm 618 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 1: sure she was aware of the work that MAPS was 619 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 1: doing and so like before she passed to actually see 620 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 1: like this start to come back, and like hopefully she 621 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 1: she passed with hope that a new generation could potentially 622 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,959 Speaker 1: kind of see her and her husband's life work. Yeah, man, 623 00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:49,920 Speaker 1: shout out to Anne, and I hope you left some 624 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:53,040 Speaker 1: of them recipe somewhere, Like I don't know, maybe her 625 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: tombstone has a recipe on it. Make sure you followed 626 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: War on Drugs podcasts so you don't miss any new 627 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,320 Speaker 1: episodes or any of our quick vics bonus content, and 628 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,080 Speaker 1: we'll be back next week with another episode of War 629 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 1: on Drugs. Until then, thank you for listening. Executive producers 630 00:32:16,080 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 1: for War on Drugs are Jason Flam and Kevin Wordis. 631 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,640 Speaker 1: Senior producer is Michael Epstein, Editing by Nick Massetti and 632 00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: Michael Epstein, Associate producer and mix and mastering by Nick Massetti. 633 00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: Additional production by Jeff Cleburne and Anna mcinteem. Be sure 634 00:32:30,360 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 1: to follow the show on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook at 635 00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 1: Lava for Good. You can follow Greg on Twitter at 636 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,520 Speaker 1: Greg Glode and you can follow Clayton English on Instagram 637 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: at Clayton English. The War on Drugs is a production 638 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:47,000 Speaker 1: of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal Company 639 00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:51,320 Speaker 1: Number One. I'm your host, Clayton English, and I'm Greg Glode, 640 00:32:51,840 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: and thanks for listening to the War on Drugs podcast.