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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront the problems in their lives and

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Speaker 1: then give them actionable advice and have them report back

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Speaker 1: to let us know what happened when they did what

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Speaker 1: we suggested.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. This week,

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Speaker 2: the woman who wants to have a better relationship with

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Speaker 2: her angry older sister wonders if that's possible.

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Speaker 3: I feel so attacked by her and her emails that

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Speaker 3: she's made it clear my vision and my view of

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Speaker 3: the past is the right one and the correct one,

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Speaker 3: and your cors is not.

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Speaker 1: First a quick note, Dear Therapist is for informational purposes only.

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Speaker 1: It does not constitute medical or psychological advice and is

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Speaker 1: not a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 1: By submitting a letter, you are agreeing to let iHeartMedia,

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Speaker 1: use it in part orn full, and we may edit

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Speaker 1: it for length and clarity in the session you'll hear.

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Speaker 1: All names have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 2: Hey guy, Hi Laurie. What do we have in our

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Speaker 2: mailbooks today?

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Speaker 1: Today we have a letter from a woman who has

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Speaker 1: some conflict with her sister and is really at a

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Speaker 1: loss as to what to do. And it goes like this,

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Speaker 1: Dear therapists. I'm fifty three and I have a sister

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Speaker 1: two years older. My parents had an unhappy marriage and

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Speaker 1: divorced in the early nineties, and both happily remarried. It

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Speaker 1: was pretty difficult growing up, lots of arguments between them

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Speaker 1: and yelling and fighting. My sister and I were close

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Speaker 1: and got along well growing up, but we drifted apart

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Speaker 1: once she went to college. She tried for many years

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Speaker 1: to have a baby, and she suffered multiple miscarriages. She

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Speaker 1: has a boyfriend of about fifteen years. They're not married.

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Speaker 1: She also had a very good job as an associate professor,

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Speaker 1: but she didn't get tenure and she never worked again.

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Speaker 1: That was about fifteen years ago. She lives off her

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Speaker 1: boyfriend and off of money that my mom gives her

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Speaker 1: each month. About ten years ago, our relationship took a

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Speaker 1: nose dive. I got pregnant by my boyfriend at the time,

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Speaker 1: and I now have a nine year old son. I'm

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Speaker 1: not married and I don't have a current boyfriend, but

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Speaker 1: I do have a great job, a wonderful son, many friends,

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Speaker 1: and financial stability. My sister, Natalia got very angry when

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Speaker 1: she found out I was pregnant. I didn't tell her

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Speaker 1: right away, and she's still very angry that I didn't

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Speaker 1: tell her. My dad and mom were the ones who

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Speaker 1: told me to wait and not tell her until I

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Speaker 1: was further along, But once she found out, all hell

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Speaker 1: broke loose. My dad got very angry with me and

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Speaker 1: he stopped talking to me. He was already in very

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Speaker 1: poor health, and he died three months later while I

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Speaker 1: was still pregnant. I never got the chance to have

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Speaker 1: a real goodbye with him, and I feel that my

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Speaker 1: sister really drove a wedge between us. I've forgiven her,

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Speaker 1: but this past Christmas, she asked me if a present

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Speaker 1: for my son had arrived. I responded that yes, it

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Speaker 1: had and thanked her for the gift. She then attacked

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Speaker 1: me for not asking her about the weather where she lives,

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Speaker 1: because there was a bad storm there. I responded that

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Speaker 1: I don't keep up with the weather, and I hoped

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Speaker 1: she was okay, but that her email was very hurtful.

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Speaker 1: It's now nearly a month later, and she has been

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Speaker 1: sending me NonStop angry emails. She is bringing up so

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Speaker 1: many things from the past, saying she gave up her

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Speaker 1: childhood for me. She's telling me I need to see

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Speaker 1: a therapist, calling me a bully, and a bunch of

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Speaker 1: other horrible things. I've tried my best to tell her

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Speaker 1: I love her, but would appreciate it if she can

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Speaker 1: speak to me respectfully. She ignores me and doubles down

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Speaker 1: on her anger. To be honest, if she were not

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Speaker 1: my sister, I would not have anything to do with her.

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Speaker 1: She also attacks my mom, who is eighty five, so

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Speaker 1: I know it's not just me. Neither of us has

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Speaker 1: seen Natalia for about eleven years. She lives in seclusion

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Speaker 1: with her dog and her boyfriend. I see she is

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Speaker 1: in a lot of pain, but I don't like being

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Speaker 1: called names and put down and screamed at an email.

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Speaker 1: I need your help on what to do next, Elise.

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Speaker 2: This is one of those letters where I'm much more

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Speaker 2: oriented towards what's missing in the letter than towards what's there.

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Speaker 2: What's there is that tumultuous relationship with sister. Something went wrong.

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Speaker 2: But what's not there is she thought they were very

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Speaker 2: close growing up, and her sister said, you stole my childhood.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of contradictions and different perspectives are coming

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Speaker 2: through here. With a sister with the parents, people are

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Speaker 2: seeing things in different ways, and so for me, I

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Speaker 2: really have a lot of questions so we can start

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Speaker 2: to get a sense of what the story actually is,

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Speaker 2: because it's clear that she has a much different perspective

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Speaker 2: than her sister does.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't think this is just a story

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Speaker 1: about the two sisters. I think this is a story

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Speaker 1: about the entire family and the dynamics that went on

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Speaker 1: and maybe continue to go on between them. I really

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Speaker 1: noted in her letter when she s my sister hasn't

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Speaker 1: seen my mom, my mom, not our mom in eleven years,

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Speaker 1: And the fact that Natalia hasn't seen either of them

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Speaker 1: in eleven years is very curious, especially because the mom

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Speaker 1: is still giving Natalia money every month, so there's some

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Speaker 1: kind of transaction going on there. But there's a lot

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Speaker 1: more that we need to understand about what is going on.

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Speaker 1: And I think that what you said, Guy, about lots

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Speaker 1: of people have different perspectives on what's going on is

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Speaker 1: going to be key to how we can help a lase.

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Speaker 1: So let's go talk to Elise and learn more about

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Speaker 1: this family. You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio.

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Speaker 1: We'll be back after a short break. I'm Laurie Gottlieb.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Witch, and this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 3: Hi, Elise, welcome to the show. Thank you so much.

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Speaker 3: I'm so happy to be here with both of you.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for coming on. We wanted to start by understanding

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Speaker 1: what was going on in your childhood. Tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what things were like in your house

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Speaker 1: growing up, what things were like between your parents, and

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Speaker 1: what your relationship and your sister's relationship was like with

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Speaker 1: each of your parents and with each other.

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Speaker 3: Sure, so we grew up in I think a pretty

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Speaker 3: nice house. Both my parents worked, they didn't get along.

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Speaker 3: My mother was sort of the breadwinner of the family,

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Speaker 3: so she was gone a lot of the time at

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Speaker 3: the office working, whereas my dad was home much more

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Speaker 3: often and I think he ended up being more of

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Speaker 3: the emotional support for both me and my sister. I

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Speaker 3: think both my sister and I were a little bit

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Speaker 3: afraid of my mom. She would come home and we'd

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Speaker 3: scurry around and try and make sure everything was clean,

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Speaker 3: the lights were on, the table was set, things like that.

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Speaker 1: What would happen if things weren't the way she wanted them.

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Speaker 3: She would get very upset, and my dad would sort

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Speaker 3: of try and protect us, and then she would just

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Speaker 3: express her disappointment, maybe go off to her office until things.

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Speaker 2: Were fixed, express it in what way.

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Speaker 3: Raising your voice, being very angry, and then my dad

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Speaker 3: would raise his voice and turn I think my sister

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Speaker 3: and I would run off to our bedrooms and wait

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Speaker 3: until it was safe to come out again together or separately. Separately,

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Speaker 3: so my sister and I had separate rooms. My mom

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Speaker 3: slept in one part of the house, my dad slept

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Speaker 3: in a different part of the house. I never saw

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Speaker 3: my parents sleep in the same room. They weren't very

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Speaker 3: affectionate with each other.

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Speaker 1: When your parents would fight or when your mother would

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Speaker 1: get angry with the two of you, did you and

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Speaker 1: your sister ever support each other or talk about what

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Speaker 1: was going on.

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Speaker 3: I think sometimes we would talk about it. I remember

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Speaker 3: when we were maybe ten and twelve, we brought this

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Speaker 3: to the attention to my parents. We said it didn't

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Speaker 3: seem like they were getting along and there was a

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Speaker 3: lot of arguing, and we were upset, and we suggested

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Speaker 3: they go into counseling, and they didn't go. I think

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Speaker 3: they tried to patch things up a little bit between themselves,

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Speaker 3: but it just felt like four separate people within the family.

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Speaker 3: When my sister went off to college, that's when sort

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Speaker 3: of the crack between us grew larger.

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Speaker 2: Tell us about some of the good times with her.

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Speaker 2: Would you hang out together, would you play together when

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Speaker 2: you were younger, would you have common friends, would you

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Speaker 2: share things with one another?

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Speaker 3: I guess my sister was much more of the introvert,

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Speaker 3: and she would sort of sit in her room and read,

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Speaker 3: so she wouldn't really wasn't as interested in playing directly

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Speaker 3: with me. She's very good at drawings, so she drew

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Speaker 3: some pictures of my animals. We'd go on some really

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Speaker 3: nice trips with my parents, and I remember those being

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Speaker 3: fairly enjoyable.

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Speaker 1: When you say that you and your sister were close,

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Speaker 1: and then when God I asked you, what did you

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Speaker 1: do together? I'm not hearing where the closeness was. Can

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Speaker 1: you tell me what the closeness felt like to you

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Speaker 1: or how you saw the closeness.

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Speaker 3: She's a very good cook and baker as well, so

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Speaker 3: she'd go into the kitchen and cook some things and

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Speaker 3: bake them and then bring out and I'd eat them.

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Speaker 3: She got her driver's license before I did, so she

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Speaker 3: would drive me to some places and we'd talk in

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Speaker 3: the car and share music together. Sometimes she helped me

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Speaker 3: with my homework.

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Speaker 2: So from you, and she was a pretty decent older sister.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I think so when she says you stole

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Speaker 2: my childhood, can you help us understand to what she

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Speaker 2: might be referring.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so in these email exchanges that went on around

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Speaker 3: Christmas time, she did say that I think she feels

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Speaker 3: like she was protecting me from the arguing going on

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Speaker 3: between my parents. As she said in some of her emails,

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Speaker 3: that she sacrificed everything for me so that I could

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Speaker 3: have a normal childhood.

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Speaker 2: What did she sacrifice? That's what we're not clear about.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't know. I tried to find out in

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Speaker 3: the emails a little bit, but she kept like going

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Speaker 3: back to just being very very angry, you know, in

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Speaker 3: all caps, that she felt like I'd stolen something for her,

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Speaker 3: She'd given everything to me, and I felt like I

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Speaker 3: didn't ask you to give up your childhood. And I

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Speaker 3: wish you would have told me back then or sooner.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I'm in my fifties now, and this all

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Speaker 3: happened four decades ago.

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Speaker 1: You said what you're saying to us now, to her,

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Speaker 1: Oh I didn't. What's curious to me is that you

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Speaker 1: said she sent these long emails. There must have been

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Speaker 1: a lot of content in the emails, yes, and yet

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Speaker 1: you're still unclear about what it is that she sacrificed

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Speaker 1: or how she felt she had to sacrifice something to

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Speaker 1: protect you. It doesn't really matter that it happened so

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Speaker 1: long ago. The point is the feelings are still there,

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Speaker 1: but the two of you are not really able to

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Speaker 1: talk about this. It sounds like it was kind of lonely.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a real connected family. Even when you went

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Speaker 1: to your parents and said, hey, this conflict is really

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Speaker 1: affecting all of us, please go to therapy, they chose

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Speaker 1: not to. I'm just curious how they reacted in the

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Speaker 1: moment to their daughters saying this family needs help, you

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Speaker 1: need help.

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Speaker 3: I think they said, thanks for letting us know. Well,

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Speaker 3: think about it. My dad was quite faithful in terms

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Speaker 3: of his religious beliefs. He was actually a priest at

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Speaker 3: one point, so I think he was very much like

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Speaker 3: I am married for life, whereas my mother was more like,

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Speaker 3: you know, it's so focused on her. It was always

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Speaker 3: about her work.

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Speaker 1: When you said, you're father was more emotionally available, what

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Speaker 1: kinds of things did you talk to him about.

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Speaker 3: I went to like the a private Catholic school, and

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Speaker 3: the girls were just very unkind, So I talked to

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Speaker 3: him about that. And you know, my dad would make

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Speaker 3: an effort to talk to the teachers and the principal.

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Speaker 3: He would come in. Sometimes he was very good at

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Speaker 3: origami and he would do show and tell for the class.

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Speaker 3: He also helped me with my homework and my writing.

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Speaker 3: In fact, one of my application essays for college asked

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Speaker 3: which person I most admired and had influenced me the most,

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Speaker 3: and I picked my dad, and my mom cried and

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Speaker 3: I had to pick another topic for my essay because

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Speaker 3: it just so upset her to hear that from me

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Speaker 3: at that point, my dad remember coming into my room

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Speaker 3: and saying, I'm so sorry, but you're going to have

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Speaker 3: to pick something else.

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Speaker 1: What was that like for you when he said that?

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Speaker 4: Oh?

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Speaker 2: I cried as well.

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Speaker 3: It's like, but I want to write about you. You've

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Speaker 3: meant so much to me. You know. He died ten

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Speaker 3: years ago and I still miss him very much. And

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Speaker 3: it was a horrible ending when he passed away. And

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Speaker 3: that's when a lot of the conflict with my sister

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Speaker 3: really came up.

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Speaker 2: Do you happen to know what Natalia's experience was.

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Speaker 1: Did she have the same relationship with your dad that

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Speaker 1: you did?

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Speaker 3: So, my dad and she, Laurie were very close, and

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Speaker 3: you know, my mom told me at one point that

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Speaker 3: my dad favored my sister. They were just super bonded.

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Speaker 3: I could tell that my dad really sort of preferred

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Speaker 3: my sister. I think my dad loved me as well,

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Speaker 3: but there was something between them that was very special.

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Speaker 2: You could tell that as a kid, Yes, And how

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Speaker 2: did that feel?

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Speaker 3: It hurt And it hurts even now trying to think

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Speaker 3: about that and what that was like, knowing that the

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Speaker 3: person like I really loved still like somebody else, And

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Speaker 3: you know, it happened later on with the disagreement that

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Speaker 3: we had that he would take her side and not mine,

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Speaker 3: and not defend me and not protect me or at

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Speaker 3: least be fair.

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Speaker 1: Did you and Natalia ever talk about the fact that

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Speaker 1: there seemed to be some favor artism going on with

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Speaker 1: your dad.

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Speaker 3: I didn't bring it up. I don't remember having any

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Speaker 3: talks with her about that.

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Speaker 1: So who did you talk to about that? Because it

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Speaker 1: sounds like your mom was not that emotionally available, and

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Speaker 1: I don't think.

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Speaker 3: I talked to anyone about it. But at the time,

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Speaker 3: back then, it was more focused on my studies and

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Speaker 3: I was involved in swim team, doing homework. I don't

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Speaker 3: think I was thinking about what was going on with

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Speaker 3: my parents and my sister. I was more in the moment,

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Speaker 3: even though you weren't consciously thinking about it. These are

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Speaker 3: the kinds of things that we internalize. These are very

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Speaker 3: important experiences of exactly how you put it, this person

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Speaker 3: that I love love someone else more. That can be

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Speaker 3: very painful, and it can also inform relationships later on,

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Speaker 3: not just with the person who was favored, but your friendships,

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Speaker 3: your romantic relationships, about yourself. Have you thought about any

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Speaker 3: of that as an adult, yes, I have more so

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Speaker 3: now that I've grown up. It's really painful to think about.

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Speaker 3: And I try not to dwell on it and focus

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Speaker 3: more like on the present and put more of a rosy, positive,

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Speaker 3: optimistic look at my past than try and think about

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Speaker 3: what happened then and how that shapes me today. It's

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Speaker 3: just very traumatizing, I think, you know, even talking about

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Speaker 3: it now, it's just very painful.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like Natalia someone who really wants to talk

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Speaker 1: about the past, and you're someone who, as you said,

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Speaker 1: wants to have this more kind of rosy view of

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Speaker 1: it and leave it in the past.

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Speaker 3: I'm open to talking about it with her, It's just

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Speaker 3: I feel so attacked by her and her emails that

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Speaker 3: she's made it clear my vision and my view of

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Speaker 3: the past is the right one and the correct one,

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Speaker 3: and yours is not.

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Speaker 1: Another way to think of her emails is not My

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Speaker 1: way is the right way to think of the past.

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Speaker 1: But you are so invested alease in this rosy view

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Speaker 1: that you won't allow any of my perspective in that

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Speaker 1: might be what she's sang in her emails in a

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Speaker 1: very very upsetting way. That feels incredibly aggressive.

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Speaker 2: Correct.

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Speaker 1: I'd like to go back to what you said about

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Speaker 1: when she went off to college that you started to

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Speaker 1: drift apart, and then you talked about how ten years

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Speaker 1: ago things started to really go downhill. Can you take

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Speaker 1: us through sort of those inflection points.

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Speaker 3: So she left for college back in the day, there

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Speaker 3: was no email, so we wrote letters. We'd come back

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Speaker 3: and reconnect at Thanksgiving and Christmas, spring break, and then

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Speaker 3: we had the summer together.

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Speaker 2: And how close were things between you? Did you transition

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Speaker 2: from big sister, little sister to friendship at any point?

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Speaker 3: So Scenior is my big sister. Guy friends, but she's

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Speaker 3: always been my big sister. And when she came out

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Speaker 3: to the university, I had a really bad breakup and

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Speaker 3: she flew out and comforted me, which was great. She

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Speaker 3: was studying overseas and I went to go visit her

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Speaker 3: as well. Her family traveled a lot as well, So

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Speaker 3: you know, we spent a year in Berlin, a year

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Speaker 3: in Vienna together, which at least I remember fondly.

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Speaker 2: How much would she be able to be vulnerable with

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Speaker 2: you because you said she's my big sister and I

337
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Speaker 2: still think of her that way, which puts her in

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Speaker 2: a semi parental role, and I'm curious about whether she

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Speaker 2: was able to lower that guard and be vulnerable with you,

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Speaker 2: whether you ever were able to be there for her

341
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Speaker 2: when she needed. Was she open to that or inviting

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Speaker 2: that or wanting that.

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Speaker 3: It's a great question, guy. I think my sister is

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Speaker 3: a very private person, and I'm definitely the more outgoing

345
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Speaker 3: and open one. But I was open to listening to

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Speaker 3: her and talking to her. She just doesn't share a

347
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Speaker 3: lot of her feelings, so like in these emails that

348
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Speaker 3: came out over Christmas, just all of these accusations and

349
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Speaker 3: things about me not being there, not listening to her.

350
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Speaker 1: When you would spend extended time periods together when you

351
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Speaker 1: were abroad, did.

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Speaker 3: You fight, did you argue? I don't remember fighting, to

353
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Speaker 3: be honest. Did you fight as kids? Yeah? I think

354
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Speaker 3: when we were when we were younger. I remember one instance,

355
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Speaker 3: there were a bunch of root beer popsicles in the

356
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Speaker 3: freezer and I ate nearly the whole box and as

357
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Speaker 3: a result got very sick. But she was very angry

358
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Speaker 3: that I ate them all. But otherwise I don't think

359
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Speaker 3: we argued a lot about things, just because she was

360
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Speaker 3: off doing another thing. I was off doating my thing,

361
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Speaker 3: So you.

362
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Speaker 1: Didn't really get angry with her, and she didn't really

363
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Speaker 1: get angry with you.

364
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Speaker 3: Yeah, not that I remember.

365
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Speaker 1: Typically siblings argue a lot, even siblings who are really

366
00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:16,439
Speaker 1: really close, and that's part of how they become close,

367
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Speaker 1: that there's a rupture and then there's a repair and

368
00:19:20,080 --> 00:19:23,120
Speaker 1: then they trust each other. Oh, we're having this conflict,

369
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Speaker 1: but we can get through it, because we always get

370
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Speaker 1: through it. So it's interesting that as siblings you didn't

371
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Speaker 1: really get angry with each other, which is sort of

372
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Speaker 1: part of the growing up process together. Not that you

373
00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:40,959
Speaker 1: should be fighting constantly, but it's just notable that you

374
00:19:41,000 --> 00:19:43,879
Speaker 1: can't really remember getting angry at one another, except for

375
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Speaker 1: the root be or popsicle incident.

376
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Speaker 3: She broke my Madonna record. I was upset about that,

377
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Speaker 3: but I guess I just just like for me as

378
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Speaker 3: a person, maybe Laurie, I just sort of tend to

379
00:19:53,720 --> 00:19:58,080
Speaker 3: more think about the positives and not try and dwell

380
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Speaker 3: on what I was mad about, what I was angry about.

381
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Speaker 1: She did get angry with you a couple of times

382
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:07,399
Speaker 1: about the popsicles, about the Madonna record, so she's able

383
00:20:07,480 --> 00:20:13,600
Speaker 1: to say I'm upset about this, and this dynamic persists

384
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,360
Speaker 1: today where she's saying I'm upset about this and you say,

385
00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,240
Speaker 1: I just want to look at the positives right right.

386
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Speaker 2: What was the first time that you got a whiff

387
00:20:25,480 --> 00:20:28,440
Speaker 2: of the fact that her entire experience of her relationship

388
00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:32,399
Speaker 2: with you was very, very different than yours. When was

389
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Speaker 2: the first time that she started to really show you,

390
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 2: I have a lot of feelings that I haven't been

391
00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,400
Speaker 2: talking about here they come. When did that start?

392
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Speaker 3: Now that you mentioned that we were on a train

393
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Speaker 3: on a trip, and I remember my sister saying, we know, Elise,

394
00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 3: dad has always been an alcoholic, and that was back

395
00:20:50,280 --> 00:20:51,240
Speaker 3: when we were in our twenties.

396
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Speaker 2: And what was your reaction to that? Was that news

397
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 2: to you?

398
00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:57,680
Speaker 3: I was shocked, But then I started putting the little

399
00:20:57,720 --> 00:21:01,080
Speaker 3: dots together and remembering how there was always a lot

400
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,080
Speaker 3: of beer in the refrigerator and then there wasn't, and

401
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 3: then there were empty alcohol bottles in the garbage can.

402
00:21:07,760 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 3: But I just wasn't really thinking about that.

403
00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:12,160
Speaker 2: Why was she saying that to you at that time?

404
00:21:12,600 --> 00:21:14,919
Speaker 3: I think she's trying to shock me into saying, you know,

405
00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 3: things aren't what you think they are. Your memory is

406
00:21:18,840 --> 00:21:19,920
Speaker 3: not what you think it was.

407
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:23,760
Speaker 2: So that's the issue what's coming across, certainly from the

408
00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,400
Speaker 2: stuff that you're telling us about today, but really all

409
00:21:26,440 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 2: along that she was feeling that I'm living in a

410
00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:31,960
Speaker 2: different reality, in part in her head because I'm the

411
00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:35,399
Speaker 2: older sister slash co parents, so I have to be

412
00:21:35,440 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 2: aware of everything that's going on. I can't have my

413
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 2: head in the sand or have this idealized version of

414
00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:44,159
Speaker 2: things or ignore things because I have to be the

415
00:21:44,200 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 2: big sister. In a way, It's almost like she assumed

416
00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:51,240
Speaker 2: this burden and now she's very angry at you for

417
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,320
Speaker 2: having it. But obviously it wasn't one that you offered

418
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 2: her the sheet, which one she took. But she started,

419
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,000
Speaker 2: even in your twenties, sharing I have a very different

420
00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:03,840
Speaker 2: perspective on life and our experiences than you. Yours are

421
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: quite rosy and idealized. Here's mine. Did that make you

422
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:12,040
Speaker 2: curious to ask more and find out more from her?

423
00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:16,800
Speaker 3: Yes? I did start asking more questions, asking how could

424
00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:20,240
Speaker 3: you say something like that? She said, remember saying, you know,

425
00:22:20,280 --> 00:22:23,560
Speaker 3: our childhood was really miserable. At least, I don't know

426
00:22:23,800 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 3: where you're coming up with all these visions and ideas

427
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 3: that it was anything other than miserable, and I would

428
00:22:32,280 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 3: come back with but I don't think it was that way.

429
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:37,360
Speaker 3: We look at all these trips we've been on, and

430
00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 3: we've done all these great things together, and our parents

431
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:45,960
Speaker 3: were doing their best, and she probably thinks so is delusional.

432
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Speaker 2: Were you clear that what she was saying is our

433
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:53,600
Speaker 2: childhood was miserable for me? At least?

434
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Speaker 3: I think? You know, guy, at that time, I didn't

435
00:22:57,800 --> 00:23:03,679
Speaker 3: validate her enough. I was more into what was my

436
00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,440
Speaker 3: reaction and trying to defend our childhood rather than being

437
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 3: in that moment with her and saying, tell me more

438
00:23:10,680 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 3: and you know which, now I could do a bit better,

439
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:17,160
Speaker 3: But back then I was still just in my twenties,

440
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,919
Speaker 3: and I think dealing with the shock of that.

441
00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: What do you mean by shock of it? Because you

442
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 1: were aware of some of these things too.

443
00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 3: Right, I guess shock that somebody would point it out.

444
00:23:30,280 --> 00:23:32,160
Speaker 3: Somebody's going to point out the elephant in the room.

445
00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: There's often one person in the family. They're known as

446
00:23:36,119 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 1: the identified patients. We call them the IP, and they're

447
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 1: the ones who say, hey, wait a minute, something's not

448
00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,000
Speaker 1: right here, and everyone says, oh, no, no, no. Look

449
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:50,680
Speaker 1: at all the trips we've been on. Look at our

450
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,639
Speaker 1: parents doing their best. Look at all the opportunities that

451
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,800
Speaker 1: we have had. We have a roof over our head,

452
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:03,280
Speaker 1: and food on the table, and hard working parents. And

453
00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:06,640
Speaker 1: so that person becomes the crazy person, the person who

454
00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,680
Speaker 1: brings this up and says, well, wait a minute. Dad

455
00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:10,920
Speaker 1: was an alcoholic and mom was working all the time,

456
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 1: and our parents fought every day, and it was a

457
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:17,680
Speaker 1: living hell for me. And I think that that has persisted.

458
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:22,920
Speaker 1: You dealt with the hurt and the pain by denying it. Oh,

459
00:24:22,960 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: I don't want to look at that. And she dealt

460
00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: with it by saying, I'm going to kind of go

461
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:31,159
Speaker 1: off and do my thing, but I'm also going to

462
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 1: be a truth teller at some point. And when she

463
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,960
Speaker 1: tries to do that, the family ignores her.

464
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,720
Speaker 3: I think that's correct, Glorie. I think she does feel

465
00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:44,320
Speaker 3: deeply ignored. I mean, she doesn't talk to me, she

466
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 3: doesn't talk to my mom, she didn't really talk to

467
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 3: my dad while he was still alive. I think she

468
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 3: buries a lot of this deep inside of her, and

469
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,640
Speaker 3: then when it comes up, I guess she just lashes

470
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:56,120
Speaker 3: out because it's so much better.

471
00:24:56,680 --> 00:24:58,960
Speaker 2: I think that part of her perspective might be today,

472
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 2: you were able to be in denial and have a

473
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 2: quote unquote good childhood because of me, because I was

474
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:10,560
Speaker 2: on the watchtower, because I was looking after you. The

475
00:25:10,600 --> 00:25:13,200
Speaker 2: bread that I made for you and those kinds of things.

476
00:25:13,320 --> 00:25:15,439
Speaker 2: There were things I did to distract you from what

477
00:25:15,520 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 2: was going on in the house. I didn't point out

478
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: when Dad was getting tipsy or drunk. She went to

479
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 2: her room to escape the misery, and you didn't have

480
00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 2: to because you didn't see it. And I think her experiences,

481
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:33,199
Speaker 2: she's the one that enabled that for you, and you

482
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 2: didn't realize it. But that's part of her anger today,

483
00:25:36,560 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 2: like it was me that allowed you to have the

484
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:42,840
Speaker 2: denial and the much better childhood, and I'm the one

485
00:25:42,840 --> 00:25:46,240
Speaker 2: that had to deal with all the actual real problems

486
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:47,160
Speaker 2: that were around.

487
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:53,440
Speaker 3: I think that's quite insightful. That's probably exactly how she feels, And.

488
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 2: What she's really looking for is the validation from you

489
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 2: of oh, yes, I can see that you're experience would

490
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 2: have been very, very different than mine, if that's the case.

491
00:26:04,280 --> 00:26:06,600
Speaker 2: But what I think tends to happen is that you

492
00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 2: will say, like, oh, but that just wasn't my experience.

493
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,240
Speaker 2: I just don't see that, and she experiences nandas you

494
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:18,720
Speaker 2: invalidating her experience rather than just trying to process your own.

495
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 2: And I think that's part of where the ruptures happen

496
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 2: between the two of you.

497
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,080
Speaker 3: I think that's true. I think she desperately wants to

498
00:26:28,119 --> 00:26:33,480
Speaker 3: be heard, and I tried my best at least to

499
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 3: try and listen. But I also want to make sure

500
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,800
Speaker 3: I'm heard. But I don't think she's ready to hear

501
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 3: anything that I have to say, because she really wants

502
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:46,320
Speaker 3: me to hear what she has to say and validate

503
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:47,119
Speaker 3: her experience.

504
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:50,439
Speaker 2: Right, it's the validating she needs. Listening is great, but

505
00:26:50,480 --> 00:26:52,880
Speaker 2: the other person doesn't know that you've listened until you

506
00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:57,280
Speaker 2: accurately validate. And if you listen but forget the validation step, which,

507
00:26:57,600 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 2: by the way, a lot of people do, you might

508
00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:01,960
Speaker 2: feel like I totally got it, except the other person

509
00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:02,560
Speaker 2: doesn't know it.

510
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:09,240
Speaker 1: Okay, validating doesn't mean that you had the same experience

511
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 1: she had, So I think that you feel like, well,

512
00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,639
Speaker 1: I need to explain to her that my experience was

513
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,919
Speaker 1: different or I don't agree with that you're nodding. So

514
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,199
Speaker 1: I can see that that is what happens between the

515
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,119
Speaker 1: two of you, as opposed to being able to say,

516
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 1: I'm validating that this was her experience and I'm not

517
00:27:28,440 --> 00:27:32,879
Speaker 1: going to fight with her about her feelings. Her feelings

518
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: are untouchable. You can't tell someone you don't feel that way.

519
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 1: You might have felt differently, so you don't have to say,

520
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: and Natalia, I felt the same way because you didn't.

521
00:27:46,080 --> 00:27:48,000
Speaker 1: And that's where you get stuck. I think that you

522
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:51,000
Speaker 1: feel that by validating her, you're saying and I also

523
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 1: had a miserable childhood, when you don't feel that you did,

524
00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:58,320
Speaker 1: and so you feel stuck between. I want to validate her,

525
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:03,119
Speaker 1: but I also had a different experience, and there's a

526
00:28:03,160 --> 00:28:07,119
Speaker 1: way to do that where you can really listen and

527
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 1: learn more about her and get closer to her by

528
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 1: acknowledging that her experience was real. It truly was. It

529
00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: was different from yours. No two siblings grow up in

530
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 1: the same house with the same parents, And what I

531
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 1: mean by that is just because you have the same

532
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,280
Speaker 1: parents and you're in the same house, you're going to

533
00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: react differently to those same parents. You two had different

534
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: childhoods in the same house, as most siblings do. Sometimes

535
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,880
Speaker 1: both siblings have a wonderful childhood with the same parents,

536
00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 1: even though it's still a different childhood in the same house.

537
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,320
Speaker 1: You two had these different roles. Your parents were fighting

538
00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,080
Speaker 1: all the time. That's very unsettling for kids to see

539
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,440
Speaker 1: that the people who are supposed to be stable and

540
00:28:55,640 --> 00:29:00,880
Speaker 1: calm and in charge and regulated are disregulated most of

541
00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:04,280
Speaker 1: the time. So when she comes to you and says

542
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:09,640
Speaker 1: this was my experience and you say, oh no, she

543
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 1: increases the volume when we're not heard. We think it's

544
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: not true, but we think that if we get louder,

545
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: someone will hear us. But that just makes people tune

546
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:24,280
Speaker 1: you out because then you're not going to hear anything

547
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: that she says, because all you can hear is the

548
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 1: kind of anger and aggression, and that makes you want

549
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: to turn down the volume, so you actually can't hear

550
00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,720
Speaker 1: her better. And so this dynamic just keeps repeating. She

551
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:40,800
Speaker 1: gets louder, you invalidate, she gets even louder, you invalidate more,

552
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: and now you're just in two different places completely.

553
00:29:46,400 --> 00:29:49,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I wouldn't say I was invalidating her. I

554
00:29:49,360 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 3: remember saying, you know, I understand that you feel you

555
00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,360
Speaker 3: went through all these things. You know, at the same time,

556
00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:56,000
Speaker 3: I see things differently.

557
00:29:56,280 --> 00:29:58,320
Speaker 1: But you see how quickly you get to I see

558
00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 1: things differently. So, yes, you went through this. And by

559
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 1: the way, let me tell you my version again. My

560
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 1: version was we had a happy childhood. So it goes

561
00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: very quickly from yes, I'm willing to listen to your

562
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: experience too, but let me tell you about mine. Let

563
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: me just reiterate that I had a happy childhood in

564
00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 1: that house. Do you see how that itself can feel

565
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 1: invalidating because she hasn't been given some time for you

566
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,680
Speaker 1: to really take in what she's saying and for her

567
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:30,440
Speaker 1: to know that you took it in.

568
00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: Okay, And I think part of the problem for you,

569
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:42,200
Speaker 2: Elise is that you still see her as a big

570
00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,640
Speaker 2: sister and therefore as somebody who doesn't need as much

571
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,920
Speaker 2: from you as she actually does need, because it's not

572
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 2: just the validation that she wants of her experience, she

573
00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:01,719
Speaker 2: also wants the validation that, in her own head, a

574
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 2: lot of her experience was there because I couldn't escape

575
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,000
Speaker 2: the way you did, because I had to look out

576
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: for you, or I had to be protective of you.

577
00:31:12,080 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: And you don't seem to appreciate at least how much

578
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: I sacrificed of my own happiness to allow you to

579
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,440
Speaker 2: have the denial, and how much that role took out

580
00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:27,520
Speaker 2: of me, and I didn't feel appreciated for it. For example,

581
00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 2: in your letter, you mentioned that she was upset that

582
00:31:30,680 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 2: she wrote to you asking if your son received her

583
00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,959
Speaker 2: Christmas present, And I think that her experience is that

584
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: was a big gesture on my part to send Christmas

585
00:31:42,440 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 2: presents to your son because I'm still very much hurting

586
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 2: from all the miscarriages and the fact that I don't

587
00:31:49,280 --> 00:31:52,120
Speaker 2: have a child and you do. So it's actually difficult

588
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 2: for me to be supportive and to do these things.

589
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 2: And so yes, I really need the acknowledgment because I

590
00:31:57,760 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: am again going out of my way putting myself an

591
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: emotional discomfort for you in her head. Does that make sense?

592
00:32:07,840 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 3: That makes sense? No, And I think in no way now.

593
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:14,000
Speaker 3: And what's happened is she's just still very much grieving

594
00:32:14,040 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 3: in the fact that she couldn't have a child. And

595
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I knew once that she had one miscarriage,

596
00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:22,680
Speaker 3: but in the emails that we exchanged over Christmas, she

597
00:32:22,680 --> 00:32:27,520
Speaker 3: said I had multiple miscarriages, and it's like I didn't know.

598
00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:29,880
Speaker 3: You never shared that with me and I am so sorry,

599
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 3: But if you don't tell me, how would I know?

600
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 3: And we haven't talked on the phone. She called me

601
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 3: once for my fiftieth birthday. It was very short, but

602
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 3: otherwise we only do email. I haven't heard her voice.

603
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,280
Speaker 3: My mother also hasn't seen her in thirteen years.

604
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 1: How did that pattern get established where you wouldn't see

605
00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:51,080
Speaker 1: each other or talk voice to voice.

606
00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:55,720
Speaker 3: It happened when my father died. He died about ten

607
00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 3: years ago while I was pregnant. My sister came out

608
00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 3: first to take care of him for a little bit

609
00:33:02,880 --> 00:33:07,440
Speaker 3: and then came stayed for the funeral. But that's really

610
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 3: when the rift happened, was when I was pregnant, and

611
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,120
Speaker 3: all of this anger, I think came out in the

612
00:33:16,160 --> 00:33:18,160
Speaker 3: emails that came out. She was very angry that she

613
00:33:18,360 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 3: was the one who had to take care of my

614
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 3: dad and not me, and in another email that she

615
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,640
Speaker 3: had to be the executor of the estate and sort

616
00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 3: through things even though I was named the executor. She

617
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,440
Speaker 3: was very angry about that that I hadn't stepped up

618
00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:32,280
Speaker 3: to do that.

619
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: Why do you think that you were not sharing those

620
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: responsibilities with her?

621
00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:41,520
Speaker 3: I got pregnant in August. I was in my forties

622
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:44,080
Speaker 3: at the time, so it was a miracle at all

623
00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 3: that I got pregnant. I wanted to wait to see

624
00:33:48,520 --> 00:33:51,120
Speaker 3: if I passed all the tests and I was actually

625
00:33:51,120 --> 00:33:54,720
Speaker 3: going to have a pregnancy and not miscarrie. But I

626
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 3: also my dad and my mother told me, do not

627
00:33:57,760 --> 00:34:00,240
Speaker 3: tell your sister because this will destroy her if she

628
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: finds out that you got pregnant with your boyfriend, whereas

629
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 3: she's been trying for years. I said, okay, I'll wait.

630
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:12,480
Speaker 3: But my sister found out from my aunt and was

631
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 3: so angry with me that I didn't tell her, and

632
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:16,680
Speaker 3: she's still angry to this day. You could tell from

633
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:18,919
Speaker 3: the email. I was so angry that I didn't share

634
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 3: with her that I was pregnant. She had to find

635
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 3: out for my aunt.

636
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 1: Did you explain why you hadn't told.

637
00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 3: Her, I did, I said, Mom and Dad said, don't

638
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 3: tell you anything until I was a little bit further along.

639
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,160
Speaker 3: I had wanted to, but I didn't. I'm really sorry.

640
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:35,719
Speaker 3: Knowing now, I would have shared the news with you.

641
00:34:35,800 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 3: I just was followween instructions. How did she react to

642
00:34:40,320 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 3: your explanation doesn't matter. You should have known better.

643
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,359
Speaker 2: If your parents hadn't said something, what would you have done.

644
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 3: I'm a very open person, so I was I would

645
00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:51,279
Speaker 3: want So.

646
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:53,239
Speaker 2: She was right, you didn't know better, but you just

647
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 2: went and based what your parents were saying.

648
00:34:56,520 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 3: That's right, they both said, do not tell her.

649
00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 2: But did you say that to her like you're right, Natalia,

650
00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:06,239
Speaker 2: I did know better, and I was going to tell you,

651
00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: and I shouldn't have listened to them. That was a mistake.

652
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,239
Speaker 3: I didn't say so that she was right. I was,

653
00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 3: you know, arguing with my boyfriend at the time. It

654
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 3: was an awful situation I was in. We had agreed

655
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 3: to have a baby and then I got pregnantly. He

656
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 3: was telling me to get an abortion. My father was dying,

657
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 3: was not in a good place at my job at

658
00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,960
Speaker 3: the time. It was not at the top of my

659
00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,680
Speaker 3: mind thinking about other people and when I should be

660
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:35,600
Speaker 3: informing them of my pregnancy.

661
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about the whole dynamic that was established

662
00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:42,760
Speaker 1: very young with the two of you that you didn't

663
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 1: know about. So one of the things that makes this hard,

664
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: I think, especially for you, is that you didn't ask

665
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: her to protect you. You didn't ask her to do

666
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: any of this, and she feels like, well, I did

667
00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,600
Speaker 1: the right thing. I was the noble person here right,

668
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: And when it came to the pregnancy. I think that

669
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 1: this dynamic continue, this pattern of we're adults now and

670
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: I've always protected you from mom and dad, and yet

671
00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:19,759
Speaker 1: in this situation you chose them over me. You didn't

672
00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,040
Speaker 1: choose me. And I think that even in your letter

673
00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:26,320
Speaker 1: when you had that back and forth about the Christmas present,

674
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 1: that she was upset that you hadn't asked about there

675
00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: had been a bad storm where she was. She wasn't

676
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: saying you need to check the weather. I think she

677
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: was saying, do you care about me?

678
00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 2: Now?

679
00:36:40,320 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 1: You're not expected to check the weather in a location

680
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:45,880
Speaker 1: you're not in. But if you had her in mind

681
00:36:46,600 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 1: and it was in the news, maybe you would have thought, huh,

682
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 1: I wonder if Natalia's okay. We're just trying to help

683
00:36:52,920 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 1: you to see that. From her perspective, she feels like

684
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 1: you don't have her in mind very much.

685
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,560
Speaker 3: I think that's it's true, except I also feel like

686
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: she's trained me not to care, because when I do

687
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:10,640
Speaker 3: ask how are you doing, She'll say, fine, it's okay.

688
00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 3: So why would I keep going back to a well

689
00:37:14,000 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 3: where it's just dispissal.

690
00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,200
Speaker 2: Do you follow up with her when she says that

691
00:37:18,239 --> 00:37:22,399
Speaker 2: and say, but Natalia, I actually really care about you,

692
00:37:22,520 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: and I really would like to know. And I know

693
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: you're my big sister, but we're both big now and

694
00:37:28,400 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 2: I really am interested in what's going on with you. Yes,

695
00:37:33,440 --> 00:37:36,640
Speaker 2: it's on her to open up, but I think you

696
00:37:36,719 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 2: need to push a little bit more. And I also

697
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,400
Speaker 2: think that when she says, you know, I said earlier

698
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: that she's thinking you should have chosen me, and you

699
00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:47,359
Speaker 2: know you did know better. But you listen to mom

700
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:49,000
Speaker 2: and dad and you're like, well, but I was in

701
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:53,080
Speaker 2: a very difficult situation. That's your default response, which is accurate.

702
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:57,279
Speaker 2: It skips over the step of you do say that, well,

703
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 2: but here's the situation I was in. But you can

704
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 2: start by saying I completely understand how you feel. I

705
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:07,520
Speaker 2: completely get that given your experiences, it must have felt

706
00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 2: like such a betrayal that you've been trying so hard

707
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,640
Speaker 2: and I actually get pregnant and you find out not

708
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 2: for me. That must have been really hurtful. I am

709
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,880
Speaker 2: so sorry that that's how you found out. And then

710
00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: you can go and say your part, but the part

711
00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 2: about your addressing her feelings seeing them as we said,

712
00:38:26,560 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 2: it doesn't contradict you saying here's my experience, but you

713
00:38:29,840 --> 00:38:32,719
Speaker 2: skip over that, Yes, she's giving you all the signals.

714
00:38:32,760 --> 00:38:35,040
Speaker 2: On the one hand, don't go there. And on the

715
00:38:35,120 --> 00:38:37,719
Speaker 2: other hand, she's giving all the signals, so please go there.

716
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, I think both of those reflections are quite accurate.

717
00:38:44,239 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 3: It's so hard sometimes you get just caught up in

718
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: like defense mode, and it's so difficult to, you know,

719
00:38:50,960 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 3: put a different hat on for the situation with my sister,

720
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 3: because I just I feel like I'm being attacked and

721
00:38:56,600 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 3: I immediately want to put up my shield and say no.

722
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:02,080
Speaker 3: But maybe I would get a different response from her

723
00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:05,719
Speaker 3: if I did just more validate the open and as

724
00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:08,600
Speaker 3: you said, guy, not take the first dismissal as okay,

725
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 3: she doesn't want to talk about it.

726
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,840
Speaker 1: You mentioned that you feel like you have to be

727
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: in defense mode, that you're being attacked, and I think

728
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,120
Speaker 1: that if you hear it as blame, that's what's going

729
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:26,160
Speaker 1: to happen. I don't think that originally she was blaming you.

730
00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:29,640
Speaker 1: I think it evolved into that and now she's clearly

731
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:33,120
Speaker 1: blaming you. But I think part of the reason that

732
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,839
Speaker 1: she's so angry is because you keep telling her her

733
00:39:37,880 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: reality isn't real. I was thinking about the fact that

734
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:45,440
Speaker 1: she doesn't feel appreciated for what she did. Again, you

735
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:47,600
Speaker 1: didn't ask her to do it, but she feels like

736
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:50,319
Speaker 1: she did do that for you. She flew out when

737
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:52,480
Speaker 1: you went through a breakup. She took on this parental

738
00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: role with you. And I was thinking about what you

739
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 1: wrote in your life letter about how she succeeded so

740
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: much academically and then she was up for tenure and

741
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 1: she didn't get tenure and she never worked again. And

742
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: I think that goes into that place in her of

743
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:17,719
Speaker 1: I'm not appreciated. I did everything right and I didn't

744
00:40:17,760 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 1: get tenure. I did everything right, and I didn't get

745
00:40:20,280 --> 00:40:25,160
Speaker 1: a baby. I did everything right, and my sister doesn't

746
00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:29,680
Speaker 1: appreciate me. And so I think at a certain point

747
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 1: she just gave up. You said she lives in seclusion

748
00:40:32,280 --> 00:40:35,879
Speaker 1: with her boyfriend and her dog. I do everything right

749
00:40:35,960 --> 00:40:38,640
Speaker 1: and no one can see me. So I'm going to

750
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: stay away from that pain. I'm going to keep it

751
00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,520
Speaker 1: to emails, but I'm still trying to be heard because

752
00:40:44,520 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 1: it's really meaningful to me to be heard. She hasn't

753
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: given up on that.

754
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 2: Especially by you at Lease, especially by you.

755
00:40:53,600 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 3: It's so interesting because I felt growing up I was

756
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,279
Speaker 3: always told you was the prettier one, the smarter one,

757
00:40:59,640 --> 00:41:03,040
Speaker 3: the more did one. It's just such a bright career

758
00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:07,160
Speaker 3: ahead of her. I still see that. You know, she's

759
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,800
Speaker 3: got the boyfriend. I don't have a boyfriend. She's got friends,

760
00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:12,880
Speaker 3: so there's there's things she does have in her life,

761
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,200
Speaker 3: but she's still like I guess, as you said, Laurie,

762
00:41:15,200 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 3: I'm just very angry that a lot of things she

763
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,960
Speaker 3: didn't receive, and she feels like she didn't get recognized

764
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 3: and the things that she feels like she should have deserved.

765
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:28,160
Speaker 2: But I really believe that even if she puts up

766
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:32,279
Speaker 2: so many hurdles, deep down she wants that closeness with you.

767
00:41:32,400 --> 00:41:35,799
Speaker 2: That's why she keeps writing. That's a lot of engagement

768
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: for somebody who doesn't want to have a relationship.

769
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 1: I'm thinking a little bit about the way that you

770
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,840
Speaker 1: move through the world with a more rosy disposition, which

771
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,879
Speaker 1: has its strengths, but the other part of it is

772
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:53,120
Speaker 1: that you want to make sure that it doesn't veer

773
00:41:53,160 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: into denial. And I'm thinking about how things ended with

774
00:41:58,760 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 1: your dad. I felt very close with him, and you

775
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:05,719
Speaker 1: had a sense and your mom even mentioned that he

776
00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:10,719
Speaker 1: favored Natalia, and in the end he chose her. He said,

777
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,760
Speaker 1: don't tell her, and had devastating consequences because you didn't

778
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,440
Speaker 1: get to have the relationship that you wanted to have

779
00:42:19,520 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 1: with him at the end of his life. That's right,

780
00:42:22,440 --> 00:42:28,040
Speaker 1: and I imagine that that pain lives inside you. It's unresolved.

781
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: It's this unfinished grief.

782
00:42:29,760 --> 00:42:32,719
Speaker 3: That's quite true. You know. He ended up calling me

783
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 3: on the phone in November after my sister found out

784
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:37,959
Speaker 3: and screaming at me and how could you not tell her?

785
00:42:38,320 --> 00:42:39,799
Speaker 3: And I said, but you told me not to tell

786
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:41,680
Speaker 3: her that I was pregnant, and he said, well, you

787
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: should have told her anyways, because now look at this

788
00:42:44,520 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 3: mess that we're in. And he's like, don't call me.

789
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:49,960
Speaker 3: I don't want to see you for Thanksgiving. And I

790
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:51,840
Speaker 3: was calling him and trying to get in touch with

791
00:42:51,920 --> 00:42:53,920
Speaker 3: him and sending him letters, but he wouldn't talk to me.

792
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:57,240
Speaker 3: My sister kept it from me that he was that sick,

793
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:00,200
Speaker 3: and I only found out when he was already at

794
00:43:00,239 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 3: the hospital and in a coma. And I feel like,

795
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 3: you know, with my sisters saying, well, why couldn't you

796
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 3: step up and be the executor? And I was like,

797
00:43:07,160 --> 00:43:09,600
Speaker 3: I was in shock. I hadn't talked to my dad

798
00:43:09,600 --> 00:43:12,480
Speaker 3: in four months, and our last conversation was him screaming

799
00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 3: at me. And now you want me to make decisions

800
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 3: about property and whether or not to take them off

801
00:43:17,200 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 3: life support. I couldn't believe that that was the last

802
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,760
Speaker 3: time I got to see my dad.

803
00:43:23,200 --> 00:43:26,319
Speaker 1: I don't think it was just shock. I think it

804
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:28,120
Speaker 1: was anger.

805
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:30,680
Speaker 3: Oh, I was so angry at her? How could you

806
00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:31,200
Speaker 3: not tell me?

807
00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 1: Well, not just her, I think it was anger at

808
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: your dad. He in effect disowned you correct for inadvertently

809
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 1: hurting your sister's feelings.

810
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:46,280
Speaker 2: By following his advice.

811
00:43:47,800 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it makes no sense to me.

812
00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 1: You keep trying to make sense of it, but I'm

813
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:54,960
Speaker 1: seeing the pain on your face, and I think you

814
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 1: live in the cognitive more than in the emotional. You're

815
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: more head than heart when it comes to pain. That

816
00:44:02,600 --> 00:44:05,440
Speaker 1: could be and that has been your coping mechanism that

817
00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:11,120
Speaker 1: served you well growing up. But I think now might

818
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 1: be a good time in your life, not just in

819
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,919
Speaker 1: terms of your relationship with your sister, but in terms

820
00:44:15,960 --> 00:44:19,720
Speaker 1: of your relationship with yourself and even as a parent

821
00:44:20,000 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: with your son, to be able to access more of

822
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 1: your feelings and to use them in an intentional way.

823
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 1: Oh so, when I told my sister that I was

824
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 1: arguing with my boyfriend, and that's why I couldn't step up,

825
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: I could actually share with her. I was so hurt

826
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: by Dad because he disowned me, and I was robbed

827
00:44:48,400 --> 00:44:52,000
Speaker 1: of the experience of saying goodbye to him, and he

828
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 1: died angry with me because I followed an instruction he

829
00:44:55,920 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 1: asked me to follow to protect you. At the time

830
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: when this happened many years ago, you were not able

831
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: to say to her, I'm devastated by what happened with Dad.

832
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 1: I can't step up right now because I am so

833
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,799
Speaker 1: angry that he did this to me. She didn't do

834
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:20,320
Speaker 1: it to you. He did it by choosing her over you. Yeah,

835
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,640
Speaker 1: And so there's all this kind of misplaced anger in

836
00:45:22,680 --> 00:45:26,520
Speaker 1: the family. People are angry with different people instead of

837
00:45:26,560 --> 00:45:29,440
Speaker 1: being angry with the people that maybe they should be

838
00:45:29,560 --> 00:45:30,160
Speaker 1: angry with.

839
00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:34,080
Speaker 2: I think your dad was one of the few people,

840
00:45:34,560 --> 00:45:37,520
Speaker 2: if not the only person who did see your sister.

841
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:40,239
Speaker 2: He was around when you were growing up, and I

842
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: think he did see what she did as the older sister,

843
00:45:43,920 --> 00:45:46,959
Speaker 2: the sacrifices she made, and I think that was part

844
00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,080
Speaker 2: of the closeness that they had. He was much more

845
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 2: clued in to her feelings and her sensibilities than anyone

846
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,879
Speaker 2: else in the family, which is why that warning came

847
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 2: out to you. And then when she is and she's

848
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:02,920
Speaker 2: so devastated, he just feel so bad. He just lashes

849
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:07,319
Speaker 2: out in anger without really adjusting for the fact that

850
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: that was his advice in the first place. But I

851
00:46:09,000 --> 00:46:12,680
Speaker 2: think that's in part why they had that bond, because

852
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:14,279
Speaker 2: he saw and no one else saw.

853
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:19,239
Speaker 1: So when your dad died, he was watching out for

854
00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,479
Speaker 1: her heart. And then he's gone, and then the three

855
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,479
Speaker 1: of you are left. What happened after your dad died?

856
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 1: In terms of your relationship with your mom, it was

857
00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 1: strained for a while.

858
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:34,840
Speaker 3: We've never been really close to My mother is not

859
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:38,399
Speaker 3: a very emotional person. She's much much more in her

860
00:46:38,400 --> 00:46:42,160
Speaker 3: head and she's very analytical. She lives close by, so

861
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 3: I'm able to see her. I talk to her either

862
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 3: through email or texting her on the phone. I would

863
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 3: say every single day, So I guess from that perspective

864
00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 3: we're close.

865
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,680
Speaker 1: Does she have a relationship with your child.

866
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 3: She is not the doting grandmother. She will sort of

867
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,440
Speaker 3: buy him a gift, but she's not one to take

868
00:47:02,480 --> 00:47:05,600
Speaker 3: him to the park or offered a babysit. She sees him,

869
00:47:05,640 --> 00:47:07,200
Speaker 3: I would say every few months or so.

870
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:11,360
Speaker 1: Even though she lives close. Correct, what is that like

871
00:47:11,440 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: for you?

872
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,840
Speaker 3: That's a great question. I wish she were different, but

873
00:47:17,040 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 3: I've just sort of accepted this is the way she is.

874
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 3: She's not going to be that sort of grandmother who

875
00:47:22,800 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 3: attends the concerts and asks about how he's doing in school.

876
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 1: At least you know this is the analytical part that

877
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:34,640
Speaker 1: you inherited from your mom. Okay, My question was not

878
00:47:34,800 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: how do you make sense of it or how do

879
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,200
Speaker 1: you live with it? But what does it feel like

880
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:43,200
Speaker 1: to you to know that she's close or you're a

881
00:47:43,239 --> 00:47:48,680
Speaker 1: single mom, you have this beautiful child and she's not

882
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:49,720
Speaker 1: involved in his life.

883
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,960
Speaker 3: It's disappointed. I mean, she says she loves her grandson,

884
00:47:56,000 --> 00:48:00,600
Speaker 3: but I don't see that in her actions or her

885
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:04,000
Speaker 3: words or her voice. And it hurts. And I guess

886
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 3: I choose not to think about it because it is

887
00:48:06,080 --> 00:48:08,839
Speaker 3: so deeply painful, and maybe what I've learned during this

888
00:48:09,520 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 3: talk with you, all is I do to sort of

889
00:48:11,920 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 3: dismiss my own painful feelings and don't dwell on them

890
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:18,439
Speaker 3: because it doesn't feel like it serves me, just makes

891
00:48:18,440 --> 00:48:19,240
Speaker 3: me feel worse.

892
00:48:19,440 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 1: And this is what drives Natalia crazy.

893
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:24,279
Speaker 3: I think you're.

894
00:48:24,239 --> 00:48:27,960
Speaker 2: Right, Laurie, because there's so many layers here. When you

895
00:48:28,000 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 2: see your mom operating as a grandmother and she's not

896
00:48:31,719 --> 00:48:35,320
Speaker 2: warm and she's not close and she's functional, it brings

897
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:38,520
Speaker 2: up Yep, that's what it was like growing up with

898
00:48:38,560 --> 00:48:41,759
Speaker 2: her as a mother. So it's not just that you're

899
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:44,720
Speaker 2: not reflecting on your experience as a mom to see

900
00:48:44,760 --> 00:48:47,600
Speaker 2: how your mother's relationship with your son is like, but

901
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:50,080
Speaker 2: you're not even taking it to the next layer, which

902
00:48:50,120 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: is and let me reflect on my experience was like

903
00:48:53,280 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 2: because the same disappointment I have for my son I

904
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,239
Speaker 2: probably experienced or didn't because I was distracting myself from

905
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 2: it and not dealing with it. And again, that's the

906
00:49:02,400 --> 00:49:06,680
Speaker 2: same tendency of I'm going to just put that aside

907
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,839
Speaker 2: and just not think about it because that's easier, right.

908
00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 3: Well, I'm trying to be a different parent myself. I

909
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:21,080
Speaker 3: purposely play with him, talk to him, communicate with him,

910
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:24,719
Speaker 3: validate his feelings, which surprises my mother. She's like, why

911
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:26,840
Speaker 3: are you taking him to all these places and doing

912
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:29,680
Speaker 3: all these things? And because that's what I think being

913
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 3: a good mom is about. Is the Lena you know

914
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:33,640
Speaker 3: that connection?

915
00:49:34,400 --> 00:49:37,239
Speaker 2: You say that to her, Yeah, does she see the

916
00:49:37,360 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 2: uptext to know?

917
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:40,320
Speaker 3: I don't think so. I don't think she goes that deep.

918
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:44,120
Speaker 3: She's super smart intellectually, but just doesn't go into the

919
00:49:44,320 --> 00:49:45,360
Speaker 3: feelings about people.

920
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: But again, this is sort of a cognitive explanation, because

921
00:49:49,760 --> 00:49:52,919
Speaker 1: that's what a good mom does. I'll bet that when

922
00:49:52,960 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: you're taking your son to all these different things and

923
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:57,719
Speaker 1: you're connecting with him and you're listening to him and

924
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: validating him, that feels healing to you. It does, and

925
00:50:03,360 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: it's enjoyable. You enjoy your role as his mother, but

926
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:10,840
Speaker 1: it also heals something because you're able to give something

927
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:16,120
Speaker 1: that you didn't get very true. And I wonder if

928
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,840
Speaker 1: you spend any time in those feelings of I'm grieving,

929
00:50:20,920 --> 00:50:24,040
Speaker 1: but I'm healing and when you're at the park with

930
00:50:24,160 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 1: him or you're taking him to wherever you take him

931
00:50:27,560 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 1: that is enjoyable for him. Do you ever sit there

932
00:50:32,040 --> 00:50:35,719
Speaker 1: and just think what am I feeling right now? And

933
00:50:35,760 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 1: maybe you want to spend a little more time there

934
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: in the moment with him and get in touch with

935
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 1: your feelings.

936
00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 3: That's a great suggestion.

937
00:50:45,400 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 1: So I'm curious how this works with your mom and Natalia.

938
00:50:51,800 --> 00:50:53,240
Speaker 1: They email, but they don't talk.

939
00:50:54,719 --> 00:50:56,960
Speaker 3: Sometimes they talk on the phone. They have to arrange

940
00:50:57,480 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 3: phone conversations. Natalia also lashed out at my mother in

941
00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,400
Speaker 3: a similar way over small things. She got upset. My

942
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 3: mother said she would call her one morning and because

943
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:10,720
Speaker 3: something else came up, and my sister got very upset

944
00:51:10,719 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 3: with her and angry, and you don't care about me.

945
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:16,600
Speaker 1: But that's the theme. That's Natalia's theme. She does not

946
00:51:16,800 --> 00:51:20,840
Speaker 1: feel that anyone ever cared about her except her boyfriend

947
00:51:20,880 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: seems to oh. Her dad was not only yes, And

948
00:51:25,840 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: even when she was grieving the loss of the one

949
00:51:29,120 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 1: person who was there, she felt the burden of and

950
00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:34,520
Speaker 1: I have to handle everything again, just like my parents,

951
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: who were not in charge when I was growing up.

952
00:51:38,560 --> 00:51:40,239
Speaker 3: I think that's true.

953
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: Does your mother acknowledge what the atmosphere was really like

954
00:51:44,880 --> 00:51:46,040
Speaker 1: in your house growing up?

955
00:51:46,600 --> 00:51:49,160
Speaker 3: I don't think so. As she says, you know, was

956
00:51:49,200 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 3: it really that bad? We did our best she.

957
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:57,920
Speaker 1: Does to you what you do to Natalia. And also

958
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:01,319
Speaker 1: your mother, as you said, was scared to you. That

959
00:52:01,480 --> 00:52:03,680
Speaker 1: was the first word that you said when we asked

960
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: at the beginning of the session, tell us about your mom,

961
00:52:06,560 --> 00:52:10,640
Speaker 1: you said we were scared of her. So she doesn't

962
00:52:10,640 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 1: acknowledge any of that, and she says we did our

963
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:15,279
Speaker 1: best the way you say to Natalia, Mom and dad

964
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:20,000
Speaker 1: did their best. And it lands on you differently than

965
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:24,359
Speaker 1: it lands on Natalia. You have your own coping mechanisms

966
00:52:24,400 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 1: that both served you and prevented you from truly feeling,

967
00:52:27,680 --> 00:52:30,839
Speaker 1: which you'll probably want to work on a little bit more.

968
00:52:31,800 --> 00:52:36,360
Speaker 1: And for Natalia, she dealt with it in overachieving and

969
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: taking care of everybody else but not really having her

970
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:41,440
Speaker 1: own needs recognized.

971
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 3: She's very upset about that chance.

972
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:48,839
Speaker 1: And I might suggest Elise that maybe you do too,

973
00:52:50,040 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 1: but you don't let yourself go there, because there have

974
00:52:52,920 --> 00:52:56,960
Speaker 1: been times in our conversation today when your emotions are

975
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:00,760
Speaker 1: all over your face and there you know you're smiling

976
00:53:00,800 --> 00:53:04,600
Speaker 1: now through that, Yeah, yeah, partly in recognition, but partly

977
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 1: because that's what you do. You smile when things get hard.

978
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:13,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just painful to think about and I don't

979
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:17,120
Speaker 3: like spending a lot of time in pain, but.

980
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:20,719
Speaker 1: Maybe getting more in touch with your feelings will help

981
00:53:20,800 --> 00:53:22,480
Speaker 1: you not be in such pain.

982
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,799
Speaker 3: I pulled out some pictures from my photo album of

983
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:31,640
Speaker 3: my sister. Can I show you? Yeah, happy kids, Easter

984
00:53:31,680 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 3: egg hunting, all bit older in the beach.

985
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 1: What made you pull those photos out?

986
00:53:38,160 --> 00:53:41,480
Speaker 3: Because I wanted to show you like we were happy kids.

987
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 1: At least you're doing with us what you do with Natalia.

988
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:47,719
Speaker 1: We don't doubt that you experienced happiness in your childhood,

989
00:53:47,840 --> 00:53:50,720
Speaker 1: but we also see that you were able to compartmentalize.

990
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: And you're defending. You're saying, here's exhibit A. Let me

991
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:59,400
Speaker 1: show you the pictures, Judge, Here we are we were happy,

992
00:53:59,440 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: you see. Look look at us smiling in these pictures.

993
00:54:01,760 --> 00:54:04,560
Speaker 1: That's what you do to Natalia. Yes, you were smiling

994
00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,080
Speaker 1: in those pictures. And yes, all the other things we

995
00:54:07,160 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 1: talked about in this session were also true. Both and

996
00:54:11,080 --> 00:54:14,120
Speaker 1: and that is where we want to get you to

997
00:54:14,120 --> 00:54:14,919
Speaker 1: to the both act.

998
00:54:15,800 --> 00:54:23,880
Speaker 2: All right, So at least we have some advice for you.

999
00:54:25,280 --> 00:54:29,600
Speaker 2: We would like you to write an email to your sister.

1000
00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:33,439
Speaker 2: Would like you to say some version of you've been

1001
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:37,160
Speaker 2: thinking about her a lot, and you've been doing a

1002
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:42,720
Speaker 2: lot of reflecting, and you've come to realize more about

1003
00:54:42,760 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 2: how much of a sacrifice she made when you were

1004
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,880
Speaker 2: growing up, how much she was looking out for you,

1005
00:54:51,719 --> 00:54:56,640
Speaker 2: and how much her protection and sacrifice allowed you to

1006
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:02,040
Speaker 2: have a much better experience childhood then she did. Not

1007
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: that it was great, but it was a better experience,

1008
00:55:04,719 --> 00:55:08,600
Speaker 2: And you're seeing that that cost her, and it's something

1009
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:13,319
Speaker 2: you hadn't seen before and hadn't fully appreciated before, but

1010
00:55:13,440 --> 00:55:17,560
Speaker 2: you're seeing it now. And you can also say, and

1011
00:55:17,719 --> 00:55:21,600
Speaker 2: I'm just now getting in touch with my own feelings,

1012
00:55:22,239 --> 00:55:25,640
Speaker 2: and it's been hard for me, and so I definitely

1013
00:55:25,680 --> 00:55:28,359
Speaker 2: know that I didn't do a great job of being

1014
00:55:28,400 --> 00:55:30,560
Speaker 2: there for yours, but I think I can do that

1015
00:55:31,239 --> 00:55:35,239
Speaker 2: better now. For example, I really should have listened to

1016
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 2: my instincts when I got pregnant, because you were the

1017
00:55:39,120 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 2: first person I should have called. Because I know what

1018
00:55:42,960 --> 00:55:45,719
Speaker 2: you went through in trying to get pregnant, you should

1019
00:55:45,760 --> 00:55:48,480
Speaker 2: have heard it from me. I'm so sorry I didn't

1020
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:53,120
Speaker 2: tell you first. And you're right, I wasn't there for

1021
00:55:53,200 --> 00:55:58,480
Speaker 2: you when Dad died, and I know how close and

1022
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,319
Speaker 2: special your relationship was, so I can only imagine how

1023
00:56:02,320 --> 00:56:04,440
Speaker 2: big a loss that was for.

1024
00:56:04,560 --> 00:56:07,760
Speaker 1: You and how much support you needed at that time.

1025
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:11,640
Speaker 2: And I realized in general that I had a big

1026
00:56:11,680 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 2: sister who was looking out for me when I was

1027
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:18,240
Speaker 2: growing up. You didn't have that. You were all alone

1028
00:56:19,040 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 2: in a difficult situation. And I really hope that maybe

1029
00:56:24,160 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 2: you can give me another chance today to really listen

1030
00:56:28,880 --> 00:56:31,799
Speaker 2: and to be there for you in ways that I

1031
00:56:31,800 --> 00:56:35,319
Speaker 2: haven't been able to be before. You don't have to

1032
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:36,760
Speaker 2: justify or explain anything.

1033
00:56:37,400 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: No pictures, got it, Laurie.

1034
00:56:43,960 --> 00:56:46,480
Speaker 2: And what you're asking her for is he would love

1035
00:56:46,520 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 2: to be able to have better conversations going forward. I

1036
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:54,400
Speaker 2: really want to hear more about how you feel and

1037
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:59,720
Speaker 2: what your experiences are even today. Okay, she might respond

1038
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:03,520
Speaker 2: with another tirade of anger, like now you're writing this

1039
00:57:03,680 --> 00:57:06,319
Speaker 2: all these years where she just kind of vomits out

1040
00:57:06,360 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 2: all the complaints. If she does that, your response to that,

1041
00:57:10,840 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 2: because I think she's testing. If she does that, she'll

1042
00:57:13,160 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 2: be testing you to see really you're listening, or you're

1043
00:57:16,480 --> 00:57:19,000
Speaker 2: going to start explaining again and telling me that no,

1044
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 2: I'm telling you I was miserable and you're like, no,

1045
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,920
Speaker 2: but our childhood was good for me, Like that's the fear.

1046
00:57:24,480 --> 00:57:27,280
Speaker 2: So if she comes back with this full tireage, you

1047
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 2: have to just do another round of it. I understand

1048
00:57:30,360 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 2: that this is what this was like for you, and

1049
00:57:33,040 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 2: I can get how angry you are and how much

1050
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:39,920
Speaker 2: you felt disappointed and let down by me over the years.

1051
00:57:40,000 --> 00:57:40,960
Speaker 2: I get why you're.

1052
00:57:40,840 --> 00:57:44,560
Speaker 1: So angry, and I'm really glad you're telling me this

1053
00:57:45,040 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: because now I'm able to hear it and understand it differently.

1054
00:57:50,040 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: So don't worry about her tone, don't worry about the

1055
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:55,680
Speaker 1: kind of language she uses. At a certain point, you will,

1056
00:57:55,680 --> 00:58:00,080
Speaker 1: But right now, if she feels understood and heard, you

1057
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:04,120
Speaker 1: are going to say thank you, thank you, thank you,

1058
00:58:04,320 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: thank you for telling me this.

1059
00:58:07,120 --> 00:58:07,480
Speaker 3: Okay.

1060
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 2: If she doesn't respond at all, then we think, like

1061
00:58:11,720 --> 00:58:14,400
Speaker 2: once a week for a while, you should just text

1062
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:16,720
Speaker 2: her and say I was thinking about you and I

1063
00:58:16,840 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 2: just wanted to check in and see how you were.

1064
00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: And I would add to those texts just a line

1065
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 1: of I'm doing so much thinking about our childhood.

1066
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:27,920
Speaker 2: So she understands that things shifted, because she has to

1067
00:58:28,000 --> 00:58:30,440
Speaker 2: understand why it's worth a while to try it again

1068
00:58:30,840 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 2: because things shifted.

1069
00:58:32,040 --> 00:58:36,439
Speaker 3: So validating her show that I'm listening to her don't

1070
00:58:36,440 --> 00:58:38,840
Speaker 3: talk about me, well, you talk about.

1071
00:58:38,640 --> 00:58:40,480
Speaker 1: You in the sense of I've been doing a lot

1072
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 1: of reflecting. I see that I wasn't really open to

1073
00:58:46,360 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: hearing your pain because I have trouble with my own

1074
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 1: pain and that would be a great way to express

1075
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,560
Speaker 1: it to her. Our mom was not very good at

1076
00:58:55,640 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: expressing emotions. She was very analytical, and I've adopted that

1077
00:58:58,920 --> 00:59:03,600
Speaker 1: way of being, and I realize that I have not

1078
00:59:03,720 --> 00:59:08,760
Speaker 1: been able to acknowledge your pain or mind, even if

1079
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,560
Speaker 1: they might be different. Okay, okay, And this leads me

1080
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 1: to part two of the advice. There are three parts.

1081
00:59:15,760 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 1: Part two is we didn't ask you about this in

1082
00:59:18,080 --> 00:59:20,880
Speaker 1: this session, but you did say in your letter that

1083
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:25,800
Speaker 1: she calls you a bully, and we are just guessing

1084
00:59:26,040 --> 00:59:29,200
Speaker 1: that maybe what she means by that is that you

1085
00:59:29,320 --> 00:59:33,480
Speaker 1: both have the experience of the other person as shutting

1086
00:59:33,520 --> 00:59:37,200
Speaker 1: you down. She expus all this venom at you, and

1087
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: you feel like she's a bully, and she feels like

1088
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:43,480
Speaker 1: you're trying to ram your version of childhood down her

1089
00:59:43,600 --> 00:59:47,280
Speaker 1: throat so aggressively that she experiences you as a bully.

1090
00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 1: There is an aggressiveness to forcing someone to think the

1091
00:59:50,240 --> 00:59:53,760
Speaker 1: way that you think and deny their reality, and I

1092
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:55,520
Speaker 1: think you do that as much for yourself as you

1093
00:59:55,560 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 1: do for Natalia. You are trying so hard to convince

1094
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,320
Speaker 1: both of you that it was okay, because that's been

1095
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,880
Speaker 1: your coping mechanism that has in some ways worked your

1096
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: advantage and in some ways not so. The ways that

1097
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,120
Speaker 1: it has not has been you haven't really made room

1098
01:00:13,560 --> 01:00:18,240
Speaker 1: not only for Natalia's feelings, but for your feelings. So

1099
01:00:18,400 --> 01:00:21,360
Speaker 1: when Natalia shares her pain with you, we'd like you

1100
01:00:21,400 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 1: to look for an aspect of your own pain in

1101
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 1: what she's saying. Yours might look different, but we've learned

1102
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 1: in this conversation that you do have some pain. That

1103
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:35,320
Speaker 1: it's very hard for you to sit in your pain

1104
01:00:35,320 --> 01:00:39,000
Speaker 1: because it feels so uncomfortable, because that was how feelings

1105
01:00:39,000 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: were dealt with in your family. But we'd like you

1106
01:00:42,880 --> 01:00:46,360
Speaker 1: to get some practice with sitting with your feelings a

1107
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: little bit acknowledging that they're there and not using that

1108
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 1: intellectual part of yourself to talk yourself out of those feelings,

1109
01:00:54,520 --> 01:00:58,560
Speaker 1: and partly as a parent, yourself so that you model

1110
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:01,560
Speaker 1: something different or your child until you can get in

1111
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:06,080
Speaker 1: touch with your own feelings. Okay, Yes, and so as

1112
01:01:06,160 --> 01:01:10,400
Speaker 1: part of that, this is leading into task number three.

1113
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:12,760
Speaker 1: We feel like you really haven't dealt with your feelings

1114
01:01:12,760 --> 01:01:16,560
Speaker 1: around your father. That he was this person that you

1115
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 1: could go to emotionally in the family, and yet he

1116
01:01:19,600 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 1: also favored your sister, and he also had a drinking problem,

1117
01:01:23,400 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 1: and he abandoned you when you, inadvertently and on his advice,

1118
01:01:30,200 --> 01:01:34,360
Speaker 1: ended up hurting your sister, and you didn't get any

1119
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:36,959
Speaker 1: kind of goodbye with him, any kind of repair with him.

1120
01:01:37,400 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 1: So we'd like you to write a letter to your

1121
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:45,240
Speaker 1: father and really go into the feelings part where you

1122
01:01:46,080 --> 01:01:48,560
Speaker 1: expressed to him what you weren't able to express to

1123
01:01:48,640 --> 01:01:55,560
Speaker 1: him before he died. I loved you so much. Those

1124
01:01:55,680 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: times when we would talk about things when I was

1125
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 1: being bullied at school, when the girls were unkind to me,

1126
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:04,160
Speaker 1: when you were there for me meant the world to me.

1127
01:02:04,400 --> 01:02:06,920
Speaker 1: I couldn't do that with Mom. I was scared of Mom,

1128
01:02:07,600 --> 01:02:12,520
Speaker 1: and you were my sanctuary. And these are the feelings

1129
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:19,600
Speaker 1: as you're crying right now that we're talking about Dad.

1130
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:23,080
Speaker 1: I loved you so much. You were so there for

1131
01:02:23,200 --> 01:02:26,600
Speaker 1: me when I was all alone. You have no idea

1132
01:02:26,640 --> 01:02:29,640
Speaker 1: what that meant to me. And then at the end,

1133
01:02:30,360 --> 01:02:33,080
Speaker 1: becoming a mom was so important to me, and instead

1134
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,840
Speaker 1: of being able to celebrate that with me, you disowned me.

1135
01:02:37,400 --> 01:02:39,960
Speaker 1: You didn't tell me how sick you were. I didn't

1136
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,400
Speaker 1: get to have any kind of repair with you. I

1137
01:02:42,440 --> 01:02:44,960
Speaker 1: never got to tell you this. We never got to

1138
01:02:45,040 --> 01:02:47,760
Speaker 1: talk about how much you meant to me and also

1139
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:51,560
Speaker 1: how much you hurt me. And so I want to

1140
01:02:51,560 --> 01:02:56,760
Speaker 1: tell you this now, Dad, Okay, And I think that

1141
01:02:56,760 --> 01:02:59,640
Speaker 1: that will be a starting point for you to really

1142
01:02:59,640 --> 01:03:01,520
Speaker 1: get in touch with some of the feelings you had

1143
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:06,080
Speaker 1: around the patterns in your family, the relationships in your family,

1144
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,000
Speaker 1: and how they affect not just you and your sister today,

1145
01:03:09,680 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: but how they affect you and your own relationships today

1146
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: with your son, with a partner that it sounds like

1147
01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: you hope to meet one day, and with yourself.

1148
01:03:23,520 --> 01:03:28,280
Speaker 2: Okay, one last thing we said, we would like you

1149
01:03:28,360 --> 01:03:31,919
Speaker 2: with your sister to have several rounds the letter. Maybe

1150
01:03:31,960 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 2: it does a phone call or more emails of really

1151
01:03:35,960 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 2: just absorbing and containing. If she's angry, if she's hurtful,

1152
01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:45,520
Speaker 2: that doesn't mean you do that forever. You do get

1153
01:03:45,520 --> 01:03:47,360
Speaker 2: to set limits at some point, and you do get

1154
01:03:47,360 --> 01:03:50,160
Speaker 2: to say to her, I'm actually trying to make things

1155
01:03:50,200 --> 01:03:53,400
Speaker 2: better between us. I'd love for you to participate in that.

1156
01:03:53,800 --> 01:03:57,000
Speaker 2: See if you can kind of quote unquote break her

1157
01:03:57,200 --> 01:03:59,680
Speaker 2: so that she really gets it and trusts because it's

1158
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 2: a trust thing. And if she can, that's wonderful. If

1159
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:04,959
Speaker 2: you can't, at some point, you don't have to keep

1160
01:04:05,000 --> 01:04:08,240
Speaker 2: showing up for the beating. So keep in mind that

1161
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:10,880
Speaker 2: there is at some point if you're not seeing any movement,

1162
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 2: you get to say, you know what, I've really been

1163
01:04:13,760 --> 01:04:17,040
Speaker 2: trying here. But if you're just going to keep being hurtful,

1164
01:04:17,280 --> 01:04:19,240
Speaker 2: it doesn't encourage me to keep trying. And I would

1165
01:04:19,280 --> 01:04:26,400
Speaker 2: like to tell me how I hurt you without attacking me.

1166
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:32,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, Oh we'll try that. Thank you. Thank you

1167
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:36,800
Speaker 3: both really appreciate it. I really appreciate your time and

1168
01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:40,439
Speaker 3: all your advice and helping me to see things from

1169
01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:42,640
Speaker 3: her perspective. I don't think I would have been able

1170
01:04:42,640 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 3: to without hearing and talking with the both of you.

1171
01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,640
Speaker 1: And we're also helping you to see things from your

1172
01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:51,920
Speaker 1: perspective that you've been pushing down for many decades.

1173
01:04:53,000 --> 01:04:55,800
Speaker 3: Yes, very true.

1174
01:04:56,080 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 2: We'll be thinking about you. We really hope it goes well.

1175
01:04:58,680 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 3: I so appreciate you it's really wonderful to speak with

1176
01:05:01,560 --> 01:05:04,480
Speaker 3: both of you. I appreciate your time very much. Thank you.

1177
01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 1: I think this session was a good illustration of how

1178
01:05:13,760 --> 01:05:17,520
Speaker 1: sometimes somebody comes in and they want help with their issue,

1179
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:20,680
Speaker 1: but we spend a lot of time helping them to

1180
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:25,240
Speaker 1: see somebody else's perspective. And partly here it wasn't so

1181
01:05:25,280 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: that we could focus so much on her sister, but

1182
01:05:28,320 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: it was to help a Lease get in touch with

1183
01:05:31,880 --> 01:05:36,280
Speaker 1: the emotional side of her own experience of childhood and

1184
01:05:36,320 --> 01:05:40,240
Speaker 1: for a Lease to really understand that she doesn't fully

1185
01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: know the version of her own story of childhood yet

1186
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,440
Speaker 1: she's just at the very beginning of reflecting on that

1187
01:05:48,640 --> 01:05:50,120
Speaker 1: and understanding herself.

1188
01:05:50,160 --> 01:05:54,200
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, absolutely right, especially when somebody comes in and says,

1189
01:05:54,200 --> 01:05:56,920
Speaker 2: there's somebody very important in my life who just sees

1190
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:01,120
Speaker 2: everything so radically different than I do, and we fight

1191
01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 2: about it all the time. And when you hear that,

1192
01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:07,120
Speaker 2: and you hear that they don't have insight into the

1193
01:06:07,160 --> 01:06:10,600
Speaker 2: other person's perspective, then it's actually really important to help

1194
01:06:10,640 --> 01:06:14,000
Speaker 2: them see the other person's perspective, because that's almost like

1195
01:06:14,240 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 2: opening a door that other things can happen, you can

1196
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 2: go through. But unless you can get that door open.

1197
01:06:19,280 --> 01:06:22,040
Speaker 2: There's no repair that can be done. Yeah.

1198
01:06:22,080 --> 01:06:25,520
Speaker 1: And also I think it really highlighted for a lease

1199
01:06:26,160 --> 01:06:29,160
Speaker 1: getting some kind of understanding of the pain that happened

1200
01:06:29,200 --> 01:06:32,960
Speaker 1: at the end with her father understanding. It actually does

1201
01:06:33,040 --> 01:06:36,400
Speaker 1: feel bad when my mom can't have a relationship with

1202
01:06:36,480 --> 01:06:40,800
Speaker 1: my son, because it reminds me of what I felt

1203
01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: like as the daughter of this particular mom, and in

1204
01:06:46,440 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: being able to find the common ground with her sister. Yes,

1205
01:06:49,400 --> 01:06:52,120
Speaker 1: there were different points of pain, but we also lived

1206
01:06:52,120 --> 01:06:56,040
Speaker 1: in the same house and reacted in some way to

1207
01:06:56,360 --> 01:06:58,760
Speaker 1: the difficulties that were going on, and at least we

1208
01:06:58,800 --> 01:06:59,640
Speaker 1: can agree on that.

1209
01:07:00,680 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 2: I'm really curious to see how this goes for her

1210
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:07,160
Speaker 2: this week. Both I'm curious to see how Natalia will respond,

1211
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:10,360
Speaker 2: and I'm especially curious if she does respond, how Alice

1212
01:07:10,440 --> 01:07:13,840
Speaker 2: will manage that response, and whether she can really stay

1213
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 2: with her feelings because they are difficult and she's not

1214
01:07:17,400 --> 01:07:18,520
Speaker 2: used to it. Yeah.

1215
01:07:18,600 --> 01:07:20,720
Speaker 1: I thought it was really telling when at the end

1216
01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 1: of the session she brought those photos up for us

1217
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 1: to see, to say, look at our happy childhood, look

1218
01:07:26,600 --> 01:07:30,360
Speaker 1: at our great relationship. I felt in that moment what

1219
01:07:30,520 --> 01:07:34,720
Speaker 1: Natalia must feel when she's trying to say, let's look

1220
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 1: at the both and let's look at this other part

1221
01:07:37,120 --> 01:07:39,600
Speaker 1: of the experience too, But no, no, no, here are

1222
01:07:39,640 --> 01:07:42,560
Speaker 1: the pictures. So I'm really curious to see what happens

1223
01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:42,960
Speaker 1: this week.

1224
01:07:48,720 --> 01:07:51,959
Speaker 2: You listening to deotherapists. We'll be back after a short break.

1225
01:08:04,680 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: So, Guy, we heard from Elise, and I'm curious to

1226
01:08:07,120 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 1: see how things went with the assignments we gave her.

1227
01:08:10,680 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 5: Dear Laurie and Guy, thank you again for taking the

1228
01:08:13,720 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 5: time to listen to my story and offer me some

1229
01:08:16,000 --> 01:08:18,040
Speaker 5: advice and a bit of homework to try and help me.

1230
01:08:18,880 --> 01:08:21,160
Speaker 5: Your first assignment was to write an email to my

1231
01:08:21,240 --> 01:08:24,600
Speaker 5: sister and validate her experience and feelings. I did my

1232
01:08:24,680 --> 01:08:28,760
Speaker 5: best to come across as truly hurtfelt warm, conciliatory, and

1233
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:32,400
Speaker 5: inviting future conversations with her. I've not heard back from

1234
01:08:32,400 --> 01:08:34,400
Speaker 5: her since I sent that email a few days ago.

1235
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:37,240
Speaker 5: I do intend to follow up with weekly friendly short

1236
01:08:37,320 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 5: check ins, as you both sugjusted, in case there continues

1237
01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:44,559
Speaker 5: to be no response for her. Your second task was

1238
01:08:44,600 --> 01:08:46,840
Speaker 5: to look more deeply into my own feelings and work

1239
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:50,160
Speaker 5: on my ability to express them better. I realized from

1240
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:51,960
Speaker 5: our talk that I do tend to focus on the

1241
01:08:52,000 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 5: good and dismiss the bad in my life. I've done

1242
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 5: my best to quickly get rid of bad feelings like

1243
01:08:57,080 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 5: anger or sadness. After we chatted, I reflected and realized

1244
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 5: that I had talked about how great a sister she

1245
01:09:03,439 --> 01:09:05,879
Speaker 5: was and how little we fought. Well.

1246
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,360
Speaker 3: I remember now some of the negative things between us,

1247
01:09:09,600 --> 01:09:12,439
Speaker 3: like how we were washing dishes one night, argued and

1248
01:09:12,479 --> 01:09:14,160
Speaker 3: she threw a pot of water all over me.

1249
01:09:15,240 --> 01:09:17,000
Speaker 5: I remember a huge fight we had when I was

1250
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:19,280
Speaker 5: in second grade and I ended up in the emergency

1251
01:09:19,320 --> 01:09:21,719
Speaker 5: room with fourteen stitches on my arm and a few

1252
01:09:21,720 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 5: in my face. And when she was angry with me,

1253
01:09:24,400 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 5: she'd locked me in the garage. Later on, when I

1254
01:09:27,360 --> 01:09:29,360
Speaker 5: was struggling and fighting with my axe and being a

1255
01:09:29,400 --> 01:09:32,439
Speaker 5: single mom, she told me I was probably not capable

1256
01:09:32,479 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 5: of being a good mother and that I should put

1257
01:09:34,400 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 5: my baby up for adoption. So you both seemed quite

1258
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 5: perceptive to this aspect of my personality. That I tend

1259
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 5: to bury my pain in bad memories. I need to

1260
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 5: work on that. Your third and last assignment was the

1261
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 5: most painful, which was to write a letter to my

1262
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:52,080
Speaker 5: dad expressing both my love for him, yet also how

1263
01:09:52,160 --> 01:09:54,880
Speaker 5: much she let me down and abandoned me, how he

1264
01:09:55,000 --> 01:09:57,559
Speaker 5: chose my sister over me, and how he refused to

1265
01:09:57,600 --> 01:09:59,800
Speaker 5: reach out to comfort me knowing how much pain I

1266
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 5: was in. This was the most painful part of your homework,

1267
01:10:03,400 --> 01:10:05,840
Speaker 5: and to be honest, I don't feel much better after

1268
01:10:05,840 --> 01:10:09,000
Speaker 5: writing it. It's been over ten years since he died,

1269
01:10:09,280 --> 01:10:12,000
Speaker 5: and I'm so grieving and upset thinking about how is

1270
01:10:12,040 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 5: death unfolded. I do want to thank you both again

1271
01:10:15,520 --> 01:10:18,160
Speaker 5: for all your help and insights into my story. We

1272
01:10:18,280 --> 01:10:21,759
Speaker 5: both helped me reframe things, and though I can't repair

1273
01:10:21,800 --> 01:10:24,240
Speaker 5: what happened with my dad, maybe there is some hope

1274
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:27,160
Speaker 5: with my sister. I do miss her very much and

1275
01:10:27,240 --> 01:10:29,440
Speaker 5: it would be great if we could be real sisters

1276
01:10:29,600 --> 01:10:31,360
Speaker 5: and involved in each other's lives again.

1277
01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:35,680
Speaker 3: Bye for now.

1278
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:42,640
Speaker 1: The first thing that struck me about Elisa's response is

1279
01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 1: I remember her showing us those pictures of her and

1280
01:10:46,400 --> 01:10:49,520
Speaker 1: her sister and saying, look, we had such a happy childhood.

1281
01:10:49,600 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 1: Look we were so close, we had such a great

1282
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:56,360
Speaker 1: relationship as sisters. And then to hear these stories that

1283
01:10:56,400 --> 01:11:03,080
Speaker 1: were not just painful, but they were extreme, locking her away,

1284
01:11:03,120 --> 01:11:06,840
Speaker 1: throwing a pot of water on her telling her that

1285
01:11:06,880 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 1: she should put her child up for adoption. This is

1286
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:13,640
Speaker 1: a very different version of events. So I'm glad that A.

1287
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:17,840
Speaker 1: Lisa is starting to see that there's another side to

1288
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:22,400
Speaker 1: this relationship because her mom had this sort of always

1289
01:11:22,439 --> 01:11:27,280
Speaker 1: be happy attitude, that she has adopted this well and

1290
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:30,120
Speaker 1: needs to be able to see the reality of the

1291
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:32,519
Speaker 1: relationship as opposed to just the sunny version.

1292
01:11:33,320 --> 01:11:37,519
Speaker 2: Yes, I was equally surprised because we were talking about

1293
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:39,120
Speaker 2: this for quite a while. She had a lot of

1294
01:11:39,120 --> 01:11:42,840
Speaker 2: opportunity to have her memory jogged and to say, oh,

1295
01:11:42,880 --> 01:11:45,120
Speaker 2: you know what, I'm actually remembering one of the not

1296
01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 2: great moments. But you're right, these are quite extreme landing

1297
01:11:48,479 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 2: in the hospital with fourteen stitches to the arm to

1298
01:11:50,800 --> 01:11:55,000
Speaker 2: the face, and had we heard this information, it might

1299
01:11:55,040 --> 01:11:58,679
Speaker 2: have shifted our perspective, both of the sister and certainly

1300
01:11:58,680 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 2: of the relationship ends certainly of the extent to which

1301
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 2: Elise is good at ignoring the bad and focusing on

1302
01:12:07,360 --> 01:12:10,960
Speaker 2: the good, and our advice might have been different had

1303
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:12,080
Speaker 2: we known that.

1304
01:12:12,680 --> 01:12:13,160
Speaker 3: I agree.

1305
01:12:13,160 --> 01:12:15,800
Speaker 1: I think we were wanting at least to explore how

1306
01:12:15,880 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 1: much flexibility Natalia had when she felt validated and heard.

1307
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:27,240
Speaker 1: But now we're getting a different version of Natalia. And

1308
01:12:27,280 --> 01:12:33,760
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how much capacity Natalia has for this

1309
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:39,760
Speaker 1: kind of reciprocal conversation, given how extreme her behavior has

1310
01:12:39,840 --> 01:12:42,960
Speaker 1: been even as a child. So I think we might

1311
01:12:43,040 --> 01:12:47,599
Speaker 1: have given a different assignment in terms of what to

1312
01:12:47,680 --> 01:12:49,800
Speaker 1: do going forward with Natalia.

1313
01:12:50,280 --> 01:12:52,800
Speaker 2: And I think it also explains a little bit the

1314
01:12:52,920 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 2: dad's actions, because if Natalia from the beginning had really

1315
01:12:56,120 --> 01:12:59,400
Speaker 2: big feelings about things and Alisa didn't seem to have

1316
01:12:59,479 --> 01:13:02,160
Speaker 2: as big because she was so good at the denial,

1317
01:13:02,640 --> 01:13:04,680
Speaker 2: then the dad might have been in the mode of

1318
01:13:04,720 --> 01:13:08,280
Speaker 2: having to soothe the child that's more emotionally volatile. And

1319
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:10,000
Speaker 2: then right at the end of his life, when he

1320
01:13:10,080 --> 01:13:12,880
Speaker 2: was so angry with Elise for actually just following the

1321
01:13:12,920 --> 01:13:15,759
Speaker 2: advice he gave her, don't tell your sister you're pregnant,

1322
01:13:16,840 --> 01:13:19,840
Speaker 2: maybe that was out of concern for the sister because

1323
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:23,920
Speaker 2: she's more fragile, and he was used to just protecting

1324
01:13:24,000 --> 01:13:27,439
Speaker 2: the older sister because she was more overt in her

1325
01:13:27,479 --> 01:13:30,280
Speaker 2: feelings than Elisa, was much harder to see when Elise

1326
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:32,760
Speaker 2: was hurting, and he might have just replicated that same

1327
01:13:32,880 --> 01:13:35,840
Speaker 2: dynamic of let's tend to look squeaky your wheel.

1328
01:13:36,720 --> 01:13:40,200
Speaker 1: He might have truly been frightened given Natalia's behavior, of

1329
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:44,639
Speaker 1: what she might do right if she felt so much

1330
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 1: pain around her not being able to get pregnant, and

1331
01:13:49,000 --> 01:13:53,120
Speaker 1: then her sister is and Jatalia seems like she can

1332
01:13:53,560 --> 01:13:58,960
Speaker 1: be extremely reactive in unpredictable ways, and he might have

1333
01:13:59,000 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 1: been concerned about would she harm herself, what would she

1334
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:05,599
Speaker 1: do to others? So, going to that last assignment where

1335
01:14:05,640 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 1: Alice was saying writing the letter was really hard for

1336
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:12,720
Speaker 1: her and it didn't give her much relief, I think

1337
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:15,040
Speaker 1: this is the first step, is that you need to

1338
01:14:15,080 --> 01:14:18,960
Speaker 1: be able to get those feelings out, as painful as

1339
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:23,479
Speaker 1: they are, and get clear about This is what I

1340
01:14:23,600 --> 01:14:26,479
Speaker 1: wish my dad had known. This is what I wish

1341
01:14:26,520 --> 01:14:29,840
Speaker 1: that I could have told him, and maybe understanding a

1342
01:14:29,840 --> 01:14:32,320
Speaker 1: little bit more about why he did what he did,

1343
01:14:32,400 --> 01:14:34,400
Speaker 1: not to excuse what he did or not to take

1344
01:14:34,400 --> 01:14:37,760
Speaker 1: away the pain of what he did, but to understand

1345
01:14:37,800 --> 01:14:41,040
Speaker 1: a little bit more about the pickle that he was

1346
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:43,000
Speaker 1: in and the pickle that we were all in in

1347
01:14:43,080 --> 01:14:43,719
Speaker 1: the family.

1348
01:14:44,600 --> 01:14:48,559
Speaker 2: And I think it's very possible that because she wrote

1349
01:14:48,560 --> 01:14:52,040
Speaker 2: this letter and she's thinking about these things, that much

1350
01:14:52,200 --> 01:14:55,880
Speaker 2: like happened with Natalia more memories of her relationship with

1351
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,760
Speaker 2: her father might start to come back to her. That

1352
01:15:00,160 --> 01:15:02,640
Speaker 2: makes the relationship with her dad much more mixed and

1353
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:06,320
Speaker 2: ambivalent than she had presented to us based on the

1354
01:15:06,320 --> 01:15:08,680
Speaker 2: memory she had. So it's possible that that's one of

1355
01:15:08,680 --> 01:15:11,760
Speaker 2: the reasons she didn't feel relief, because it's a much

1356
01:15:11,800 --> 01:15:15,679
Speaker 2: more complicated relationship with her dad than she had described

1357
01:15:15,720 --> 01:15:18,960
Speaker 2: as No, everything was great with us, just this thing

1358
01:15:19,000 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 2: happened out to the blue.

1359
01:15:20,640 --> 01:15:23,840
Speaker 1: I think because he was the more available parent that

1360
01:15:23,920 --> 01:15:27,320
Speaker 1: she idealized her relationship with her father, because we do

1361
01:15:27,439 --> 01:15:30,240
Speaker 1: that as children. When there's somebody that at least gives

1362
01:15:30,280 --> 01:15:34,920
Speaker 1: you something, then we idealize that parent as the good parent,

1363
01:15:34,960 --> 01:15:37,840
Speaker 1: the parent who saw me. And in some ways I'm

1364
01:15:37,880 --> 01:15:41,000
Speaker 1: sure he did, but there were probably many ways that

1365
01:15:41,360 --> 01:15:44,519
Speaker 1: he didn't, especially because he was drinking. So I think

1366
01:15:44,720 --> 01:15:48,320
Speaker 1: being able to acknowledge, as you said, the complexity of

1367
01:15:48,360 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 1: the relationship might be really helpful for her instead of

1368
01:15:52,800 --> 01:15:56,120
Speaker 1: the idealized relationship that seems to have crashed all of

1369
01:15:56,120 --> 01:15:58,639
Speaker 1: a sudden at the end of his life. Maybe that

1370
01:15:59,439 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 1: complexity was there the whole time, and now she's just

1371
01:16:02,400 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 1: finally seeing it.

1372
01:16:03,600 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 2: And so maybe this is an opportunity for her to

1373
01:16:06,280 --> 01:16:10,040
Speaker 2: re examine all the relationships she has in her life

1374
01:16:10,040 --> 01:16:13,120
Speaker 2: and really try and look at all of them more accurately.

1375
01:16:13,160 --> 01:16:15,120
Speaker 2: I would strongly suggest she do that with help of

1376
01:16:15,120 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 2: a therapist.

1377
01:16:15,960 --> 01:16:19,200
Speaker 1: Where this might lead for her is to a process

1378
01:16:19,240 --> 01:16:22,680
Speaker 1: of grieving in a way that will help her to

1379
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:27,880
Speaker 1: move forward instead of staying stuck in these ideas about

1380
01:16:27,920 --> 01:16:32,040
Speaker 1: her childhood that she's been holding on to. Maybe she

1381
01:16:32,160 --> 01:16:35,000
Speaker 1: won't have the kind of relationship with her sister that

1382
01:16:35,080 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: she wants. Her sister just might not be capable of that,

1383
01:16:39,360 --> 01:16:42,720
Speaker 1: and there's some grieving there. Her mother she's seen as

1384
01:16:42,760 --> 01:16:47,000
Speaker 1: a grandmother, she's just not capable of it. And the father,

1385
01:16:47,120 --> 01:16:49,519
Speaker 1: we saw what he was capable of or not capable

1386
01:16:49,520 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 1: of at the end of his life. So I think

1387
01:16:51,560 --> 01:16:53,880
Speaker 1: there's a lot of grieving to be done so that

1388
01:16:53,960 --> 01:16:59,320
Speaker 1: she can move forward and find more satisfying relationships now

1389
01:16:59,400 --> 01:17:04,680
Speaker 1: in her present life, whether that's a romantic relationship, platonic relationships,

1390
01:17:05,080 --> 01:17:07,880
Speaker 1: having the kind of relationship with her son that she

1391
01:17:08,000 --> 01:17:11,280
Speaker 1: wants to have. I think that that is the path

1392
01:17:11,320 --> 01:17:14,880
Speaker 1: forward for her finding the kinds of relationships that she

1393
01:17:14,960 --> 01:17:17,200
Speaker 1: didn't have. But she's going to need to really do

1394
01:17:17,360 --> 01:17:20,960
Speaker 1: some grieving in order to move forward and make space

1395
01:17:21,040 --> 01:17:24,320
Speaker 1: for those new relationships that are healthier and more satisfying.

1396
01:17:25,080 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 2: I really hope she does this work. She's I think,

1397
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 2: capable of having a much more satisfying and emotionally connected

1398
01:17:32,000 --> 01:17:33,400
Speaker 2: life than she's had.

1399
01:17:33,439 --> 01:17:40,040
Speaker 1: So fuck absolutely. Next week, a woman who feels rejected

1400
01:17:40,080 --> 01:17:43,080
Speaker 1: by her husband wonders if there's any hope for their marriage.

1401
01:17:43,360 --> 01:17:46,320
Speaker 4: I'd given them an ultimatum where I said, let's focus

1402
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:49,439
Speaker 4: on our relationship intensively. If things don't go in the

1403
01:17:49,520 --> 01:17:51,920
Speaker 4: right direction, we're going to have to figure out the

1404
01:17:51,920 --> 01:17:54,840
Speaker 4: next step. He told me that I was threatening to force,

1405
01:17:54,920 --> 01:17:56,640
Speaker 4: and then he said, I'm done.

1406
01:17:56,880 --> 01:17:59,760
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1407
01:17:59,760 --> 01:18:02,559
Speaker 1: free so you don't miss any episodes, and please help

1408
01:18:02,600 --> 01:18:05,320
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01:18:05,400 --> 01:18:08,920
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1410
01:18:08,960 --> 01:18:10,560
Speaker 1: people to find the show.

1411
01:18:11,040 --> 01:18:13,320
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1412
01:18:13,720 --> 01:18:19,280
Speaker 2: email us at laurandguy at iHeartMedia dot com. Our executive

1413
01:18:19,280 --> 01:18:23,360
Speaker 2: producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited by Josh Fisher.

1414
01:18:23,680 --> 01:18:28,160
Speaker 2: Additional editing support by Zachary Fisher and Katie Matty. Our

1415
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:31,200
Speaker 2: intern is an Anna Doherty and special thanks to our

1416
01:18:31,240 --> 01:18:34,960
Speaker 2: podcast fairy Godmother Katie Couric. We can't wait to see

1417
01:18:34,960 --> 01:18:38,360
Speaker 2: you at our next session. Dee Therapist is a production

1418
01:18:38,439 --> 01:18:45,880
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio, Fish Food