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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: His grandchildren, even great grandchildren, they all just said to me.

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Speaker 2: No one ever talked about it. We never knew what happened.

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Speaker 2: It was never sold, no one ever discussed it. It

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Speaker 2: was just a family secret. I don't know what happened.

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Speaker 2: I can't help you. Please tell me if you find

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Speaker 2: out anything.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast Tenfold War Wicked and the co host

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Speaker 1: of the podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right. I've traveled

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Speaker 1: around the world interviewing people for the show, and they

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Speaker 1: are all excellent writers. They've had so many great true

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Speaker 1: crime stories, and now we want to tell you those

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Speaker 1: stories with details that have never been published. Tenfold War

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Speaker 1: Wicked presents Wicked Words is at the choices that writers make,

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Speaker 1: good and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories

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Speaker 1: behind the stories. When a powerful businessman in Alaska is

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Speaker 1: murdered in his bed in nineteen fifty three, the police

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Speaker 1: believe it might have been a break in gone wrong,

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Speaker 1: but as details about his personal life make headlines. Investigators

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Speaker 1: turned to several new suspects. Author James T. Bartlett tells

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Speaker 1: us the story at the center of his book The

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Speaker 1: Alaskan Blonde set the scene for me, where are we?

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Speaker 1: What is this time period?

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Speaker 2: Like? This was nineteen fifties Alaska nineteen fifty three nineteen

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Speaker 2: fifty four specifically, And the first thing that I found

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Speaker 2: out that I didn't know was that Alaska was a

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Speaker 2: territory then, it wasn't a state. I didn't know that

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Speaker 2: it didn't become a state until nineteen fifty nine. And

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Speaker 2: that pretty much meant that, as most Alaskans kind of

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Speaker 2: still think today, they were kind of ignored. Most Americans,

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Speaker 2: as I found out, really don't know a lot about

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Speaker 2: itsa even now they know it's a very very long

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Speaker 2: way away. It's way up north, past Canada, very cold,

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Speaker 2: very cold. Most people would have just said, Alaska, that's

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Speaker 2: way up north, isn't it. Aren't they trying to become

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Speaker 2: part of the US. That's really all that people knew.

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Speaker 2: And so the fifties in Alaska was very much a

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Speaker 2: place that we might recognize in other parts of the world.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was still very strong, sort of society

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Speaker 2: rules and expectations. You know, the man was the bread

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Speaker 2: winner and the woman was the homemaker. They were very

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Speaker 2: common things as well. But Alaska is a very separate

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Speaker 2: place to America. You know, they didn't consider themselves to

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Speaker 2: be really American. They were Alaskans first.

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Speaker 1: So let's get into the story. Tell me about the couple.

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Speaker 1: Cecil and his wife, Diane Wells. They're in Fairbanks, Alaska, right.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's right. They've been married a few years by

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Speaker 2: this time. They have a young son, Mark. They've been

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Speaker 2: in Fairbank. Cecil is he's in his early fifties. He's

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Speaker 2: a very successful businessman what they called in those days.

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Speaker 2: He was a pioneer of Alaska. He was very well

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Speaker 2: known as especially Anchorage as well, which is the biggest

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Speaker 2: town by far in alask He was very well known there.

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Speaker 2: He had come up to Fairbanks. He's very well known

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Speaker 2: for his car dealerships. He had mining interests, he had

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Speaker 2: real estate interests. He was a very rich, successful man.

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Speaker 2: He'd also been married four times, so he had a

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Speaker 2: number of children already, some who were adult children already.

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Speaker 2: And Diane was twenty years younger. She was young and blonde,

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Speaker 2: and she was the fifth wife, and as members of

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Speaker 2: the family told me, she was very different from all

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Speaker 2: his other wives. That's what they said, because she was

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Speaker 2: much younger. She was the trophy wife, and as such,

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Speaker 2: he bought a lots of furs and jewelry, and you know,

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Speaker 2: they lived very well, but in that same sort of

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Speaker 2: a gilded cage element. I think, to an extent, you

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Speaker 2: were expect to behave in a certain way. You were

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Speaker 2: the attractive young wife, you were the glamorous hostess. You know,

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Speaker 2: you stayed at home, you looked after the children. It

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Speaker 2: was kind of the deal. And I believe their relationship

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Speaker 2: was genuine enough. I'm absolutely sure they had genuine feelings

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Speaker 2: for each other. For sure. They traveled a lot, and

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Speaker 2: they were a glam couple. They were like sort of

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Speaker 2: a list couple.

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Speaker 1: How are they an alest couple in Alaska? Though? It

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Speaker 1: just seems like both of these people would feel trapped

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Speaker 1: in an environment that you have described as being sort

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Speaker 1: of rough and rugged.

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Speaker 2: It is very much a challenge. Cecil had been an

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Speaker 2: anchorage previously. He'd been in Alaska for a number of

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Speaker 2: years two and fourth. He was well aware of how

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Speaker 2: that worked, and he was seemed to be very comfortable

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Speaker 2: with it. It would have been a big change for

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Speaker 2: her to come there. And it was true that when

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Speaker 2: she came, Cecil asked, believe it or not, his former

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Speaker 2: sister in law to sort of be a consort for

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Speaker 2: Diane when she arrived in Fairbanks, because he knew it

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Speaker 2: was going to be a challenge. It was going to

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Speaker 2: be a challenge. You know, this is months of winter

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Speaker 2: where you could be stuck in the house because of

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Speaker 2: the snow. The weather's really difficult. It's going to be

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Speaker 2: very much a lifestyle change. I mean, I've been up

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Speaker 2: to Fairbanks a couple of times. It's a lifestyle to

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Speaker 2: live in Alaska in any level. And I think also

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Speaker 2: the culture there. It's very much a drinking culture, very

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Speaker 2: much male dominated culture, massively dominated because of the army

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Speaker 2: bases nearby, so there are enormous amounts of men in

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Speaker 2: town rather than a sort of even an equitable parity.

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Speaker 1: Does that equal high crime in this time period, Yeah, a.

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Speaker 2: Lot of the problems were like we would expect in

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Speaker 2: a town, you know, alcohol, gambling, fighting, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: There was a lot of crime, robbery, there's a lot

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Speaker 2: of money around, there's a lot of people working there,

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Speaker 2: who you know, not necessarily with gold dust in their pockets,

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Speaker 2: but a lot of people are working. They have money

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Speaker 2: and are getting paid and can't necessarily do a lot

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Speaker 2: with it. You know, during the winter, you can't get out,

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Speaker 2: you can't really go to many places. So there's a

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Speaker 2: lot of people with a lot of money. And there

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Speaker 2: was violent crime as well, especially of a domestic variety.

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Speaker 2: But again that's the case for everywhere.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about Diane before she meets Cecil. Did you

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Speaker 1: find a lot of information about what her life was like,

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Speaker 1: what her relationships were like.

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Speaker 2: Initially, I thought I was going to be laughing when

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Speaker 2: I tried to look into the story of Diane, because

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Speaker 2: I did, like everybody does these days, a Google search

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Speaker 2: for her to try and find out the story of her,

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Speaker 2: and I came across a hit immediately, for obviously her

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Speaker 2: son that she had had with Cecil, and a daughter

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Speaker 2: that she'd had from a previous marriage from her first marriage.

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Speaker 2: I did eventually manage to contact Cecil and Diane's son,

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Speaker 2: because I managed to find Diane's second daughter, her eldest

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Speaker 2: daughter that wasn't mentioned in any of the newspaper articles

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Speaker 2: at the time. Diane had two daughters already, and it

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Speaker 2: turned out she was estranged from them after her first

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Speaker 2: marriage ended. She never saw her children again, which was

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Speaker 2: extremely sad. I don't think she was allowed to have

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Speaker 2: much contact with her children. So when she met Cecil,

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Speaker 2: it's likely she never discussed that she had two children.

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Speaker 2: Maybe she felt she didn't.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So let me summarize. We've got two people, Diane

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Speaker 1: and Cecil, who are not from Alaska, but they are

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Speaker 1: living in Fairbanks, which is not a very large city

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Speaker 1: by American standards in the nineteen fifties, very conservative area.

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Speaker 1: This bombshell blonde who seems to really love her husband,

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Speaker 1: even though there's quite a big age difference. And then

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Speaker 1: you've got a man on his fifth marriage who is

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Speaker 1: very very successful. This seems on the surface like a

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Speaker 1: good situation going into what turns out to be a very,

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Speaker 1: very big tragedy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The night when it all started was nineteen fifty three,

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Speaker 2: October seventeenth. Early in the morning that morning, actually Diane

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Speaker 2: bashed on the door of her neighbor. They lived in

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Speaker 2: the north of the building which is still there in

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Speaker 2: downtown Fairbanks. It was considered to be the most fancy

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Speaker 2: building of the time. I guess it's what we would

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Speaker 2: call now, like a service building. So early in that

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Speaker 2: morning she banged on the door of a neighbor and

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Speaker 2: she was crying. She was hysterical, and she said two

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Speaker 2: men broke into the apartment and shot Cecil and beat

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Speaker 2: me up. The police were called. They came round. Cecil

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Speaker 2: was dead in his bed, shot while he was asleep.

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Speaker 2: Diane had like a big puffy face, like a split lip,

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Speaker 2: a black eye. She was taken to the hospital and

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Speaker 2: the police investigation began. There was a new chief of police,

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Speaker 2: he'd only been in the job a few months. There

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Speaker 2: was a new district attorney. But what happened within twenty

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Speaker 2: four hours, you know, there'd been the inquest and the autopsy,

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Speaker 2: and it was established that he'd been shot in the

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Speaker 2: head at relatively close range.

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Speaker 1: One shot.

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Speaker 2: They found two bullets. Actually, okay, they found two bullets.

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Speaker 2: One was still in his head and one was in

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Speaker 2: the bedding. That was her talk, and she said that

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Speaker 2: two men had broken in. She woke up in bed,

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Speaker 2: there was two men standing there and one had almost

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Speaker 2: immediately shot him. She'd run for the hall or for

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Speaker 2: the front room. He'd grabbed her hit her over the

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Speaker 2: head with like a flower pot, which I guess was

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Speaker 2: the nearest thing to hand, and when she woke up

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Speaker 2: she went into the bedroom he was dead.

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Speaker 1: Signs of a break in or now, well, I.

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Speaker 2: Mean you would think a break in maybe you know,

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Speaker 2: the chain on the door would be broken, or there'd

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Speaker 2: be some sort of big mark or some kick through

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Speaker 2: of the door. Unfortunately, the couple lived on the eighth floor,

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Speaker 2: the top floor of the building, which was unusual. People

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Speaker 2: who are thieving don't usually go to the top floor

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Speaker 2: of a building to steal. They'll usually go to the

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Speaker 2: ground floor because that's the quickest exit.

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Speaker 1: Something easier, much easier.

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Speaker 2: There had been a number of home invasion burglaries recently

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Speaker 2: that had happened, and they had also been a home

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Speaker 2: invasion burglaries of rich businessmen. Diane said that what had

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Speaker 2: happened was they had must have got a spare key

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Speaker 2: in some way and come through an adjoining door. They

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Speaker 2: had two apartments together, you know, like you get adjoining

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Speaker 2: hotel rooms and sometimes there's a door between them. They

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Speaker 2: had had two apartments, not knocked together, but they owned two.

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Speaker 2: She said that they had gone into one of the

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Speaker 2: other apartments gone through the adjoining door, and that's how

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Speaker 2: they got into the apartment, so there wasn't any break

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Speaker 2: in per se. But of course people were then thinking, well, wait,

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Speaker 2: so how did they get into the first apartment?

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Speaker 1: All right?

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Speaker 2: How did they get keys? Or you know, people were saying, well,

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Speaker 2: in that case, were they let it? It didn't seem

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Speaker 2: necessarily that much money or jewelry had been taken. The

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Speaker 2: house didn't seem to have been particularly roughed up or

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Speaker 2: anything for someone searching, as two burglars might have done.

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Speaker 2: There were some fingerprints, some bloody fingerprints, but again this

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Speaker 2: is the fiftieth so all they managed to get was

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Speaker 2: a blood group. They never link any of the fingerprints

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Speaker 2: to any person. There was obviously Cecil and Diane's in

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Speaker 2: the apartment, but no one else is. They had one

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Speaker 2: other set, but they were never able to find who

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Speaker 2: that third set of fingerprints was. And then within a

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Speaker 2: few days the police got a tip that she'd been

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Speaker 2: having an affair, and that was when Johnny Warren came

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Speaker 2: into the picture, and of course so the police wanted

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Speaker 2: to talk to him immediately, and it emerged that morning

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Speaker 2: in the early ears of that that he'd left town.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so we have Cecil and Diana sleep. Cecil is

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Speaker 1: shot dead by two men. Diane is beaten up as

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Speaker 1: she's trying to run away, and there is no sign

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Speaker 1: of a break in. She's theorizing that maybe they came

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Speaker 1: through an apartment, didn't rummage through that apartment to get

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Speaker 1: into another apartment, when it's likely that many people in

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Speaker 1: the building had as much money as Cecil did, I

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Speaker 1: would assume, I mean, this is a wealthier building. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And the police have picked up a couple of sets

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Speaker 1: of prints, but nothing that's been particularly useful, as is

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Speaker 1: the blood evens is not very useful either. And then

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Speaker 1: she has a lover. What is the situation with Johnny

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Speaker 1: that makes him controversial in this story?

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Speaker 2: In this particular story, the controversial element is that he's

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Speaker 2: a black guy. He lived there and was married. He

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Speaker 2: was married to a white woman, Clara. They've been married

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Speaker 2: for quite a few years. He was a traveling musician.

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Speaker 2: He'd been a musician for years since his teens, so

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Speaker 2: it wasn't unusual he was there. Alaska and Fairbanks especially

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Speaker 2: was quite not a party town. But there were a

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Speaker 2: couple of streets. Second Avenue especially well known for all

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Speaker 2: being bars and restaurants, and so he played a lot.

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Speaker 2: He was a well known local musician, and it turned

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Speaker 2: out that they maybe had had an affair. There was

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Speaker 2: a great photo which is in the book of a

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Speaker 2: Big Fancy Dinner where Johnny is playing the drums in

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Speaker 2: the background on the stage. There's a band on the

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Speaker 2: stage and you can see all the people sitting at

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Speaker 2: the long tables, and there's Cecil and Diana on one side.

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Speaker 2: And that's supposed to have been the night Labor Day,

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Speaker 2: the Labor Day dinner where they met for the first time,

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Speaker 2: and he realizing where things were going, he had gone

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Speaker 2: down to Oakland.

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Speaker 1: This is Johnny, right, Johnny.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Johnny had gone down to Oakland in California. That

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Speaker 2: was where he traveled to. And he'd gone with two

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Speaker 2: other people. Actually, he'd gone with his young daughter and

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Speaker 2: someone else, so he wasn't on the run. He probably

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Speaker 2: got a call or probably read about it or heard

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Speaker 2: about it, and he voluntarily went to the police in Oakland,

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Speaker 2: and he basically talked to them for a long stretch

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Speaker 2: of time, many many pages of interview, and basically it

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Speaker 2: was very clear reading from it anyway, that they had

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Speaker 2: been having an affair. There was definitely an intimacy between them.

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Speaker 2: He said that they had met a number of times

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Speaker 2: at the Wells's apartment. Even he even had some love letters.

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Speaker 1: So when this person calls in or reports to the

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Speaker 1: police that Diane is having an affair with a black man,

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Speaker 1: Johnny who's a musician, what is her response.

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Speaker 2: Oh, she denied it all the way through. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she denied the relationship all the way through. And she

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Speaker 2: also said it was two men who broke in and

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Speaker 2: shot Cesla and beat me up. She said that all

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Speaker 2: the way through, right till the end.

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Speaker 1: But she couldn't identify these men.

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Speaker 2: That was the thing. She said. They were all dressed

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Speaker 2: in black. The lights were out. I couldn't even see

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Speaker 2: even a scrap of that. You know, they had at

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Speaker 2: kato around their neck, not a mask. And as I

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Speaker 2: found out, as I'm sure we all know, it's a

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Speaker 2: very common trope that when you know, two men or

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Speaker 2: one man breaks in and kills someone unexpectedly out of nowhere,

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Speaker 2: the person who's the witness or who was there at

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Speaker 2: the time can never identify them. They always just say

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Speaker 2: it's a stranger. It was a complete stranger and I

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Speaker 2: couldn't tell you anything. It was probably just a guy.

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Speaker 1: Well, and you know what's complicating about that is that

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Speaker 1: we know now from people who are victims of trauma

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Speaker 1: survivors of trauma, they often can't identify the person because

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Speaker 1: they're being traumatized. So it's a mixed bag. You have

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Speaker 1: to be very careful about the way you judge the

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Speaker 1: reaction that people have during a crime, because yes, this

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Speaker 1: person could be evasive and giving a vague answer because

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Speaker 1: they've done something wrong, But they also could be so

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Speaker 1: beyond traumatized from being beaten by two strange men and

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Speaker 1: a dead husband that you legitimately can't remember anything.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's very much the case. Because if you

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Speaker 2: see pictures of which I put a couple of because

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Speaker 2: in the book After the Morning of the Murder used

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Speaker 2: to the picture of her, she's got two massive black eyes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Do they think that self inflicted? All of these

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Speaker 1: injuries that you've listed off? I mean, what do they

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Speaker 1: think happened?

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Speaker 2: As I did the investigating and talking to people about it,

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Speaker 2: I heard a number of theories about it, and you know,

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Speaker 2: one of them was like, well, you know, she got

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Speaker 2: someone to do that to her, you know, as coverage

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Speaker 2: or no, she got a friend to beat her up,

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Speaker 2: And I said, like, guess that's possible, But it takes

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Speaker 2: a lot for someone who knows someone well to really

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Speaker 2: hurt a friend of theirs. It's a lot. She had

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Speaker 2: two big black eyes and a swarm face and a

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Speaker 2: cut lip. Someone had definitely beaten her. I mean, who

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Speaker 2: beat her up if it wasn't a burglar, because you know,

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Speaker 2: you look at her face and you're like, oh my goodness,

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Speaker 2: that poor woman. No, she has been badly beaten.

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Speaker 1: How much did they investigate Cecil's business dealings because he

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Speaker 1: was successful and we know that oftentimes that happens through

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Speaker 1: some avenues that might piss people off. Did they investigate

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Speaker 1: whether he had any prof personal or personal acrimony between people?

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Speaker 2: They did look into it a little. I managed to

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Speaker 2: get the private memoirs of a Deputy Marshall who was

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Speaker 2: involved in the case at the time. Obviously he's passed

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Speaker 2: on now, but his daughter gave them to me, and

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Speaker 2: he suggested, perhaps at the time that a business partner

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Speaker 2: of Cecils might have wanted him killed for the life insurance,

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Speaker 2: which was one hundred grand. But I looked into that,

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Speaker 2: and it just didn't make any sense. He was worth

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Speaker 2: more alive than dead. He wasn't involved in nightclubs or bars,

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Speaker 2: or alcohol or anything that might have attracted a criminal element.

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Speaker 2: So I was never convinced that it had been something

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Speaker 2: that was like a hit, or that it was some

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Speaker 2: business rival. And neither were the police. But then, you know,

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Speaker 2: police can glets it little, you know, a little bit focused.

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Speaker 2: And once once they had the idea that the young

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Speaker 2: wife was having an affair. The rich husband is dead,

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Speaker 2: She's going to get all his money.

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Speaker 1: Is that what happens? She gets all his money?

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Speaker 2: Well, of course the never turns out to be that way.

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Speaker 2: She is, of course the executor of his will. She

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Speaker 2: gets the most of it. His children get a lot

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Speaker 2: of money, and so she was executive. But of course

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Speaker 2: within two weeks of the murder, she was arrested for

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Speaker 2: it herself.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So she never had anything to do with any of

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Speaker 2: the administration. And in fact, she was broke because you know,

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Speaker 2: again in the fifties, you know, she's never a job.

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Speaker 2: The credit cards, right, sure, we didn't even have her

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Speaker 2: own bank account.

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Speaker 1: What's difficult for me, James, is I keep coming back

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Speaker 1: to the crime scene and thinking about, Okay, if there

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Speaker 1: are two men there and they're robbing and that's their goal,

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Speaker 1: and you have the main threat, you know, like if

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Speaker 1: I talk to Paul Holes, who's my co host on

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Speaker 1: Buried Bones, and he talks about eliminating the main threat,

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Speaker 1: and the main threat would be Cecil. But you said

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Speaker 1: that Cecil's found. It sounds like he was shot while

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Speaker 1: he was laying their sleeping. Is that the impression you got?

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Speaker 2: That's right? Yeah, I mean I put the picture in

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Speaker 2: the book. I mean he's asleep. You look at the

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Speaker 2: picture and it looks like he's asleep.

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Speaker 1: To me, it makes no sense to shoot the guy

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Speaker 1: who's asleep, you know, if you're a professional robber and

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Speaker 1: you know how to get in and out. And were

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Speaker 1: these other home invasions happening around Fairbanks? Were they deadly

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Speaker 1: home invasions or were they people getting in and getting out?

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Speaker 2: That's an excellent question. Yes they were, is the answer

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Speaker 2: to that. There had been a murder earlier in the

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Speaker 2: year of another successful businessman. Two men had come into

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Speaker 2: the house while he and his wife were out, sat

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Speaker 2: there waiting for him to get back, drinking his whiskey,

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Speaker 2: and when he'd come back they confronted them. They said,

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Speaker 2: we want the money. They've been a struggle and the

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Speaker 2: guy had been shopped and then they'd run away. Now,

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Speaker 2: these two people who Diane said broke into the house,

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Speaker 2: they had whiskey when they were there, because that's what

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Speaker 2: the fingerprints were found, and of course they were looking

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Speaker 2: for money. And it happened afterwards. There was another attack

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Speaker 2: on that a guy who'd been actually the mayor of Fairbanks.

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Speaker 2: People came around to his house wanted him to take

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Speaker 2: him to his office to open his safe, and they said,

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Speaker 2: if you don't help us, we kill you, like we

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Speaker 2: did Cecil and Tommy Wright. Police did obviously search the

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Speaker 2: Wells's apartment for weapons, and they did find two guns,

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Speaker 2: but they weren't the guns that obviously had fired the

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Speaker 2: fatal bullet. There were two guns in the apartment. It's

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Speaker 2: very common gun ownership and Alaska, extremely common. So the

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Speaker 2: two robbers, if you might have come in, might have

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Speaker 2: come in. They might have heard Cecil grunt awake, you know,

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Speaker 2: or shift in his bed, and thought, good god, he

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Speaker 2: could have a gun right to hand. I'll get him

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Speaker 2: before he gets me.

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Speaker 1: Well, let's get into the trial. What happens. They've arrested

390
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Speaker 1: Johnny Warren, They've arrested Diane Wells. He's admitting to an affair,

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Speaker 1: but saying I didn't do any of this. She's not

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Speaker 1: admitting to anything. So they're not tried together, are there?

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Speaker 1: They tried separately.

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Speaker 2: Well, that was part of the thing was that Johnny's

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Speaker 2: lawyers argued, how can my client and Diane Wells both

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Speaker 2: be charged with first degree murder because they both can't

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Speaker 2: have pulled the trigger. So that was the first thing. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: they took separate lawyers and the trial was set for

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Speaker 2: into the next year. Johnny came back to Fairbanks, he

400
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Speaker 2: was brought back, he was extradited, and he came back

401
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Speaker 2: and he couldn't afford There was a bail five grand.

402
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Speaker 2: You had bail, and you could stay within Alaska. Ten

403
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Speaker 2: grand bail you could leave Alaska. Now Johnny didn't have

404
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Speaker 2: ten grand, so he stayed in Fairbank, you with his

405
00:18:58,680 --> 00:19:01,800
Speaker 2: wife and actually married on working. He carried on working

406
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Speaker 2: as a musician. He carried on working in the local

407
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Speaker 2: grocery store was his day job.

408
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Speaker 1: And his wife stayed with him. Even though he is

409
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Speaker 1: admitted to this affair.

410
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Speaker 2: They did get divorced a few years later, perhaps unsurprisingly,

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Speaker 2: but she said she's going to stand by him.

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Speaker 3: Now.

413
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Speaker 2: He continued living and working locally, and it seemed locally

414
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Speaker 2: people did not blame him or think that, you know,

415
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Speaker 2: that he wasn't ostracized or you know, made a pariah.

416
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Speaker 2: That very much seemed to not be the case at all. Now,

417
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Speaker 2: whereas Diane, she did have the money for full bail,

418
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Speaker 2: she left Fairbanks and she came down to La some friends,

419
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Speaker 2: some family friends. Well, I'm sure said, look, come down here,

420
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Speaker 2: get away from like that hornet's nest. Come down here

421
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Speaker 2: for a while. We've got a few months for the trial.

422
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Speaker 2: Bring Mark. We'll put him into school for a few months.

423
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Speaker 2: We'll see how it goes. So she came down to

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Speaker 2: Los Angeles with Mark. She enrolled Mark in school and

425
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Speaker 2: was trying to sort of wait before the trial, which

426
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Speaker 2: was going to be in April. But alas, of course,

427
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Speaker 2: as any good story I guess has to be, it

428
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Speaker 2: didn't turn out that way. This is when the third

429
00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 2: suspect in the story really comes into prominence.

430
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Speaker 1: A third person. How is the third person involved with

431
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Speaker 1: the story?

432
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Speaker 2: A third suspect yes, as I said, I got them,

433
00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:25,399
Speaker 2: managed to get the notes, the private notes from a

434
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:28,679
Speaker 2: Deputy marshal at the time, and he at the time,

435
00:20:28,960 --> 00:20:30,840
Speaker 2: he was the guy who was sent down to get

436
00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:34,000
Speaker 2: Johnny from Oakland and bring him back up to face

437
00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:34,680
Speaker 2: the charges.

438
00:20:34,800 --> 00:20:36,840
Speaker 1: Is this a Frank Worth? Is that who this is?

439
00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 2: That's it? Frank Worth is his name? Yes, And there's

440
00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 2: a picture of him in the book. It's an extraordinary

441
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:44,080
Speaker 2: picture that I got from the family. Is Frank Worth

442
00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:45,959
Speaker 2: and Johnny Warren standing next to each other. He's got

443
00:20:46,000 --> 00:20:49,160
Speaker 2: handcuffs on still and they're laughing like two old friends.

444
00:20:49,800 --> 00:20:54,160
Speaker 2: And Frank Worth in his private notes and publicly said,

445
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,840
Speaker 2: I don't think Johnny Warren did this. Well, I don't

446
00:20:56,840 --> 00:21:00,920
Speaker 2: think Johnny Warren killed Cecil. There's another man I'm looking at.

447
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,800
Speaker 2: There's another man who lives in Fairbanks. He's a local businessman.

448
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:08,320
Speaker 2: I'm looking very much into him. And the third suspect

449
00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 2: was perhaps the most mysterious of all the people involved

450
00:21:11,640 --> 00:21:15,400
Speaker 2: in this. His name was William Barres Columbany, born in Guatemala.

451
00:21:15,600 --> 00:21:17,600
Speaker 2: Came into the US followed his mother. He had an

452
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,840
Speaker 2: older sister. He was an anchorage for a while. He

453
00:21:19,880 --> 00:21:23,000
Speaker 2: was a boreroom dance instructor and a boreroom dancing school.

454
00:21:23,080 --> 00:21:25,359
Speaker 2: He came up to Fairbanks in the early fifties, about

455
00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,199
Speaker 2: a year year or two after Diane and Cecil were

456
00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 2: up there, and he lived in the Northwold building. He

457
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 2: gave broom dancing lessons, and Cecil and Diane took lessons

458
00:21:34,359 --> 00:21:36,679
Speaker 2: from him well, so they got to know him. So

459
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:38,719
Speaker 2: he was a friend. They knew him from the building,

460
00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 2: they knew him socially. He had dinner with them. He

461
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:43,640
Speaker 2: was a friend, and he and Diane seemed to be friends.

462
00:21:43,920 --> 00:21:46,680
Speaker 2: But what happened was when Diane got out on bail

463
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 2: and went down to Los Angeles a couple of months after,

464
00:21:49,640 --> 00:21:53,040
Speaker 2: William Calumbery moved down to Los Angeles as well. Of course,

465
00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:55,399
Speaker 2: his mother and his sister lived there, so that was fine.

466
00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:57,280
Speaker 2: Of course he might go down and see them. But

467
00:21:57,440 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 2: what happened was he and Diane was sort of inseparable

468
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,320
Speaker 2: from then on. He was very involved in her life.

469
00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:05,439
Speaker 2: He seemed to be what I would call like a

470
00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: super friend. He was really friendly. He had helped her

471
00:22:08,040 --> 00:22:11,320
Speaker 2: after the murder had happened. He'd been there, he'd been helping,

472
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,920
Speaker 2: Ai'd been helping get some money together for her. He

473
00:22:14,000 --> 00:22:16,240
Speaker 2: tried to help her with childcare for her. They were

474
00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:19,439
Speaker 2: best friends, they were obviously close, but that of course

475
00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,760
Speaker 2: puts him in a frame somewhat for what was going on,

476
00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:25,280
Speaker 2: and that was how he ended up sort of becoming

477
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 2: the third suspect. And so she was still writing home

478
00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:31,600
Speaker 2: and calling home, and people were writing to her friends

479
00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 2: of her, going, look what is going on with this

480
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 2: William Columbanny guy. Like, I know he's a friend and everything,

481
00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,520
Speaker 2: but you know, people are saying that, like you're married,

482
00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:40,960
Speaker 2: people say that you're living together. I mean, what's going

483
00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 2: on there? This is where some other factors came into

484
00:22:43,880 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 2: it that again a lot more understood in a contemporary

485
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:50,000
Speaker 2: manner rather than they were at the time. Dan was

486
00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:55,359
Speaker 2: taking barbiturates for depression, pretty heavy dosages, and William Columbny

487
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 2: and the very nice couple that Diane was staying with

488
00:22:58,160 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 2: were starting to get really worried about her, that she

489
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,119
Speaker 2: was starting to seem very depressed and seemed to have

490
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: given up all hope. And in February, actually on Valentine's Day,

491
00:23:08,040 --> 00:23:10,400
Speaker 2: she left the house where she'd been staying with her

492
00:23:10,600 --> 00:23:13,840
Speaker 2: friends and she checked into a hotel in Hollywood, and

493
00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,639
Speaker 2: she stayed there for about three weeks. Now why she

494
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:20,119
Speaker 2: checked into a hotel, Perhaps she felt she'd outstayed her

495
00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,239
Speaker 2: welcome with her friends. Yeah, I mean she'd been there

496
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:24,280
Speaker 2: for months. I mean it's a little match, you know,

497
00:23:24,320 --> 00:23:25,960
Speaker 2: and she had a son. They were sort of all

498
00:23:26,040 --> 00:23:28,879
Speaker 2: sharing the care of him. She didn't disappear. Maybe she

499
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: just wanted some privacy. Anyway, the trial was in April.

500
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,280
Speaker 2: She'd made it quite clear she wasn't looking forward to

501
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:37,160
Speaker 2: the trial. She was really upset about Mark, her son.

502
00:23:37,359 --> 00:23:40,399
Speaker 2: What was going to happen to him, the trial, the humiliation,

503
00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 2: the embarrassment. She was really upset about that. And then

504
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,439
Speaker 2: on March the eighth March, the night she left that hotel,

505
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 2: just left her stuff at the hotel, went around the

506
00:23:48,560 --> 00:23:51,520
Speaker 2: corner to Hollywood and Vine booked into what was then

507
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,520
Speaker 2: a very very nice hotel there. But she only booked

508
00:23:54,560 --> 00:23:56,720
Speaker 2: him for the night. She snuck a load of her

509
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,520
Speaker 2: barbitrious with her, wrote a couple of suicide notes and

510
00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,719
Speaker 2: took all the pills and kills up wow, which was

511
00:24:03,000 --> 00:24:05,399
Speaker 2: tragic in every way that you can imagine. And she

512
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,359
Speaker 2: left several suicide notes that were significant in the fact

513
00:24:09,359 --> 00:24:12,800
Speaker 2: that two of them were to this William columbany one

514
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:14,879
Speaker 2: of them was thanking him for being a good friend.

515
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: It's so sad. She had a little Sin Christopher medallion.

516
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:19,920
Speaker 2: She said, you know, I've left the St. Christpher medallion.

517
00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 2: I won't need it where I'm going. But the important

518
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: point of the note she left for him reading them,

519
00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:27,480
Speaker 2: they weren't to a lover. They seem very much notes

520
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 2: to a friend. She left a note regarding her son,

521
00:24:31,200 --> 00:24:34,760
Speaker 2: asking some family friends to hopefully adopt him, take him

522
00:24:34,760 --> 00:24:37,880
Speaker 2: on as their own child, and then she left. Kind

523
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:39,880
Speaker 2: of maybe it was the last one she wrote, because

524
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:43,200
Speaker 2: it's quite difficult to read. It's sort of a rambling,

525
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 2: somewhat kind of guilty admission type note.

526
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,680
Speaker 1: What does that mean, Well, it's not clear.

527
00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 2: It wouldn't do as illegal document, but it kind of says,

528
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,400
Speaker 2: you know, I realized that, you know, Cecil is dead,

529
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 2: and if I'm guilty for him being dead, then I

530
00:24:55,320 --> 00:24:58,520
Speaker 2: guess you know I'm guilty for having seen Johnny Warreck. Basically,

531
00:24:58,560 --> 00:25:00,840
Speaker 2: she admitted I think that she had had an affair

532
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 2: and that, if nothing else, she certainly blamed herself for

533
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:06,640
Speaker 2: Cecil's death. Now, whether that means she thinks she did

534
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: it because, like I say, all the way through, she

535
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,400
Speaker 2: always stuck the idea that two people are broken in But.

536
00:25:11,400 --> 00:25:14,760
Speaker 1: She connected his death to her affair with Johnny Warren.

537
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:15,879
Speaker 1: So where does that leave you?

538
00:25:16,280 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 2: It reads more like she feels guilty that he's dead,

539
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:22,800
Speaker 2: that he died, rather than that she did it. They

540
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:26,200
Speaker 2: did the autopsy, you know, she'd been very heavily medicated,

541
00:25:26,359 --> 00:25:30,159
Speaker 2: but they also realized that she had recently had either

542
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 2: an abortion or a.

543
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: Miscarriage recently, as in Johnny Warren.

544
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: Recently, no, quite recently before her suicide. Oh, of course

545
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:41,359
Speaker 2: at the time that was illegal. You could not do that.

546
00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: So she would have had to find somewhere illegally to

547
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,359
Speaker 2: get that procedure done. And who knows how well that

548
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 2: would have been done. And so whether she had any

549
00:25:49,520 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 2: health is she from that, whether she had the trauma

550
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: from either an a termination or a miscarriage wish are

551
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: both traumatic.

552
00:25:56,840 --> 00:25:57,840
Speaker 1: Who would the father be.

553
00:25:58,040 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: Well, that was the other question about it, because I thought, well,

554
00:26:00,840 --> 00:26:02,760
Speaker 2: let's look at it in a purely cynical way. If

555
00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 2: it was Cecil's child, which it could have been, because

556
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:07,439
Speaker 2: this was still, you know, less than nine months after

557
00:26:07,480 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: the murder. Surely, if she was so concerned about her

558
00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 2: son at least and the child that she was carrying,

559
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: she would have had that child. She would have gone

560
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,679
Speaker 2: to trial at least several months showing presumably, this is

561
00:26:19,720 --> 00:26:23,760
Speaker 2: my husband's child. I did not kill him, don't separate us. Now,

562
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:26,880
Speaker 2: if it had been Johnny's child, which again was possible,

563
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 2: it wasn't nine months after they had last seen each other.

564
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,639
Speaker 2: It's possible, of course that the birth of the child,

565
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 2: you might be able to tell the heritage of the child. Also,

566
00:26:36,600 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: the fact that she turned up at the trial might

567
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,000
Speaker 2: have people going, oh, look, she's even pregnant by the guy.

568
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,680
Speaker 2: Or there was the third alternative that maybe she had

569
00:26:44,680 --> 00:26:47,240
Speaker 2: met someone you know in Los Angeles and had got

570
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,399
Speaker 2: pregnant and had thought, I don't want another child. I

571
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:53,359
Speaker 2: also don't want to go to trial pregnant or become

572
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:55,040
Speaker 2: pregnant because people are going to judge me.

573
00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: Terrible position to be in.

574
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,679
Speaker 2: It's a terrible position to be in, and you know,

575
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 2: and plus you know, children are what was she going

576
00:27:01,080 --> 00:27:01,720
Speaker 2: to do for money?

577
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 1: Yeah? And ultimately, when you now have the main suspect

578
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,480
Speaker 1: who is dead, what happens to the case against Johnny

579
00:27:09,480 --> 00:27:12,160
Speaker 1: Warren is William released at some point.

580
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 2: I'll deal with the William carbery first. Yes, he was

581
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: briefly arrested in early nineteen fifty four, so when he

582
00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:21,199
Speaker 2: would have been down in LA in relation to Cecil's murder,

583
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: he was in the mix. He was arrested briefly. The

584
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:27,600
Speaker 2: US deputy Frank Worth came down and they arrested him

585
00:27:27,600 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: actually up in Hollywood. They questioned him, let him go.

586
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:34,760
Speaker 2: He was also questioned after Diane's suicide, mainly because he

587
00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: was the person who identify the body. It was looking

588
00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:41,080
Speaker 2: extremely bad for all the law enforcement agencies, like, we

589
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: have to get somebody, someone has to go to prison

590
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: in relation to this. In some way, they couldn't get

591
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 2: Johnny Warren because Johnny Wyren, they never really had any

592
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: evidence against him that I could ever find, there was

593
00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: anywhere even near circumstantial. That didn't mean that the police

594
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,919
Speaker 2: didn't leave him alone, though, the FBI and the Fairbanks

595
00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: PD they sent four guns to the FBI for testing

596
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,600
Speaker 2: up until like nineteen sixty because they had the bullets,

597
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,560
Speaker 2: they just didn't have the gun, and they kept that

598
00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:09,880
Speaker 2: for four years. And there were a couple of times

599
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 2: again if nineteen fifty six was one of them where

600
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: they announced that they were going to try Johnny Warren

601
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: for the murder, and then they canceled it, so that

602
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,199
Speaker 2: poor guy, he would have been living on tenderhooks until

603
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,680
Speaker 2: October nineteen sixty, that was when he was officially exonerated.

604
00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,800
Speaker 1: So what do you think happened what happened to Cecil

605
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 1: Wells that night?

606
00:28:29,119 --> 00:28:32,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think based on my interviews with the family,

607
00:28:32,680 --> 00:28:35,679
Speaker 2: and this would be grandchildren and children of Cecil Wells

608
00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 2: and Diane's children and other people who are around at

609
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:40,680
Speaker 2: the time. There are still some people who are still

610
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: alive mercifully, and they talked to me about it, and

611
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,680
Speaker 2: they said Cecil was a very jealous man. They gave

612
00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:50,160
Speaker 2: me several examples, specific of examples of his jealousy, and

613
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:52,640
Speaker 2: he could turn quite nasty when he'd had a few drinks.

614
00:28:52,880 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 2: Several people told me that I guess he was what

615
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: we would call in the fifties, like a man's man.

616
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 2: He went out to work, he came home, expected dinner

617
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:02,760
Speaker 2: on the table and a cocktail. He didn't really do

618
00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:05,160
Speaker 2: a lot of nappy changing. Now that was very common

619
00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 2: in the fifties. That was very much the societal structure

620
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,480
Speaker 2: in many ways, and it's still common today. He's a

621
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:12,480
Speaker 2: bit of a man's man. He was the breadwinner. He

622
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 2: could turn a little bit nasty after a drink. And

623
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 2: I did get a couple of eyewitness accounts from people

624
00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: who had seen him hit her and be abusive to

625
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 2: her and other people. And so what I think happened

626
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: on the night without going into all the details, I mean,

627
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:27,760
Speaker 2: the last chapter of the book, I kind of do

628
00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,400
Speaker 2: a fictionalized version of what I think happened because I

629
00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:32,960
Speaker 2: laid the bookout chronologically, and then the last chapter is

630
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: the one where I go right based on all the

631
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: evidence I found. I'm going to make this a bit

632
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:39,120
Speaker 2: of a story in the last chapter of what I

633
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: think happened on the last night. And what I think

634
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,040
Speaker 2: happened was they had been out, they had a big

635
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,720
Speaker 2: day the next day, a big social event. They had

636
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 2: a late guest for supper, which was really late. They'd

637
00:29:49,320 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: been drinking in the Northward bar, they'd been drinking in

638
00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:53,960
Speaker 2: the apartment. Dang got up in the middle of night

639
00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:56,360
Speaker 2: and were sick in the toilet, sit down a pajamas.

640
00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 2: You know, we've all done that. And I think probably

641
00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 2: cecil wasn't too amused, angry that she'd woken him up.

642
00:30:01,960 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 2: And I think either at that time or earlier, probably earlier,

643
00:30:06,200 --> 00:30:08,600
Speaker 2: they had had an alter casey and he had hit her.

644
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: And I think when she got up in the middle

645
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: of the night to be sick, or later in the morning,

646
00:30:13,800 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 2: she went into the bathroom and she looked and she

647
00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 2: had two black eyes or one black eye, and she

648
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: was like, well, obviously I'm not going out today, or

649
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: I'm obviously not going out of the house for the

650
00:30:23,840 --> 00:30:26,680
Speaker 2: next few days, because you know, she had apparently tried

651
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: to cover marks on her face with makeup before. And

652
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:32,480
Speaker 2: I think she was angry, and I think there was

653
00:30:32,640 --> 00:30:35,080
Speaker 2: possibly a gun in the house. Maybe. I think she

654
00:30:35,240 --> 00:30:37,880
Speaker 2: probably meant to just scare him, you know, to shoot

655
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 2: him and come up and scare the rejusus out of him.

656
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 2: Having said that, it doesn't matter if it was the

657
00:30:42,120 --> 00:30:44,320
Speaker 2: first or the fiftieth time he'd hit her, I have

658
00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: sympathy if she'd gone and said he Ba staid, you're

659
00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:47,240
Speaker 2: never doing that to me again.

660
00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,520
Speaker 1: Well, and the other point is she's shut twice.

661
00:30:49,720 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: Well, that's the thing. He might have made some sort

662
00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 2: of noise when she first shot. The first shot might

663
00:30:54,600 --> 00:30:56,840
Speaker 2: have missed, and then she thought, oh my god, if

664
00:30:56,840 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: he gets up, he's not just going to hit me

665
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 2: in the face, you know, he's going to beat me

666
00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:02,560
Speaker 2: to death. I mean, domestic abuse was not even a term.

667
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 2: Didn't even know what that was in the fifties. And

668
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 2: again it's a very small city. Everyone knew each other's business,

669
00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 2: and as I found out at the time, alcoholism especially

670
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,239
Speaker 2: and domestic abuse was very much something considered to be

671
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 2: behind closed doors. You didn't get involved in it, even

672
00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 2: the police didn't. And so I think she probably meant

673
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:22,360
Speaker 2: to frighten him and shot him, and then she's like,

674
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:25,200
Speaker 2: why isn't he getting up, or why isn't he saying something?

675
00:31:25,280 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 2: Or Oh what have I done? And then she's like,

676
00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: oh my god, he's dead. And then I think she

677
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,640
Speaker 2: probably made a couple of calls, probably to William Clumberley

678
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: would have been one of them, because he lived in

679
00:31:34,080 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 2: the building and he was a good friend of theirs.

680
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 2: She probably called another couple of friends of theirs. They

681
00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,640
Speaker 2: came round and they said, look, what are we going

682
00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 2: to do? And I think it was amongst them where

683
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,600
Speaker 2: the gun ended up, because that was again the big

684
00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 2: revelation from the private journal of the Deputy Marshal Frank Worth.

685
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:54,720
Speaker 2: He said in the journal that he thought the gun,

686
00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,719
Speaker 2: the murder weapon, ended up in the river. The Gina

687
00:31:57,800 --> 00:31:59,240
Speaker 2: is the name of the river that runs sort of

688
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,560
Speaker 2: through Fairbanks and around it. It's like a block and

689
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:05,040
Speaker 2: a half from the northward building. And he thinks that

690
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 2: what happened, and it makes sense. They left. She went

691
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,640
Speaker 2: next door, called the police, called the ambulance. She was hysterical,

692
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 2: she was upset, that's certainly true. They call an ambulance.

693
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:18,320
Speaker 2: They put her in the ambulance. She insists that Cecil

694
00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:20,719
Speaker 2: goes first, and then the doctor says, you need to go.

695
00:32:20,960 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 2: Cecil's already gone. She gets in the ambulance. The two

696
00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:26,920
Speaker 2: friends turn up, a husband and a couple, and the

697
00:32:27,000 --> 00:32:29,520
Speaker 2: wife says, I'll go with her to hospital, but she

698
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 2: walks to hospital. She doesn't go in the ambulance. She

699
00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 2: walks to hospital across the bridge to the hospital, which

700
00:32:35,920 --> 00:32:38,880
Speaker 2: I thought, that's odd. I mean, maybe the ambulance is

701
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,640
Speaker 2: really small and they couldn't fit her in, you know.

702
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: But then I'm like, I don't know what kind of

703
00:32:43,560 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: ambulance that is where they couldn't fit you know more

704
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 2: than two people in it. But what Frank Worth, the

705
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,200
Speaker 2: Deputy Marshal, said is that he thinks, and he doesn't

706
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: name her by name, but there's no other person that

707
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 2: could be. He thinks that possibly they said, look, take

708
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:58,840
Speaker 2: this with you, walk across the bridge, drop it over. Wow,

709
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:00,280
Speaker 2: And she dropped it into the river.

710
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: It's a big conspiracy.

711
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a conspiracy because they never found

712
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 2: the gun. Well, and when I was in Fairbanks in

713
00:33:07,240 --> 00:33:10,440
Speaker 2: October giving some talks about the book, I mentioned this

714
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 2: idea and soon put the hat up and said, oh, yes,

715
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,080
Speaker 2: I knew that lady. She would never have walked anywhere.

716
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:21,040
Speaker 2: He never walked anywhere. She was very proven proper. She

717
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 2: never walked anywhere. She would never have walked to the hospital.

718
00:33:24,360 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 2: I mean, this is seven o'clock in the morning in October.

719
00:33:27,320 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 1: Didn't you say, though, that cecil had guns? But the

720
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 1: gun that killed him was not one of those guns.

721
00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 2: No, there were two guns in the house and it

722
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 2: was not one of those guns.

723
00:33:38,040 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: So did he have a gun that they said, wait,

724
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,280
Speaker 1: there's a gun that's missing.

725
00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 2: There's no way to know because you didn't have to

726
00:33:43,120 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 2: register guns in those days. Okay, didn't need a license, didn'

727
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:46,520
Speaker 2: need a register.

728
00:33:46,720 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 1: Maybe she bought a gun without him knowing it for

729
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:49,840
Speaker 1: protection from him.

730
00:33:49,960 --> 00:33:52,200
Speaker 2: She might have had one herself. I mean, that was

731
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: one of the things that Johnny said earlier. One when

732
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:55,640
Speaker 2: he was arrested. He said he carried a gun, and

733
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: people said why do you carry a gun? He did say,

734
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:00,560
Speaker 2: you know, well, if I ever got caught by in

735
00:34:00,600 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 2: a difficult situation, I would probably want some protection. And

736
00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 2: you think, oh, oh really, then perhaps he did you

737
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:10,080
Speaker 2: to Perhaps Cecil caught the mino in a compromising situation

738
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: and there was a struggle in he you know what

739
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: I mean, or something like that.

740
00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, And actually you were just reminding me. I was

741
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: just talking about a case with Hall's about a musician

742
00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,320
Speaker 1: who always had a gun on these late night gigs

743
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: because he was getting out at three in the morning

744
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: and walking around by himself with money in his pocket.

745
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:29,520
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is. I mean, he was a

746
00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 2: gigging musician. He'd been out there at night. You have

747
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: to remember, these aren't areas that are you know, fully paid,

748
00:34:34,800 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 2: fully lit. He could get stuck in the middle of

749
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 2: the night somewhere. He's coming out at two o'clock in

750
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 2: the morning. I've been to Fairbanks, Like the downtown is

751
00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: really small and it's quite compact, and you can walk

752
00:34:44,200 --> 00:34:47,120
Speaker 2: around it because it's quite small, but most people, almost

753
00:34:47,160 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: everybody lives out and you get out there at nighttime,

754
00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:51,359
Speaker 2: it's completely dark and.

755
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:53,560
Speaker 3: You're completely on your own. There wasn't an almost out of

756
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 3: street light. So it wasn't unusual that he would have

757
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:58,680
Speaker 3: a gun. It wasn't unusual that anybody would have a gun.

758
00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 3: Women in the same don't necessarily carry a gun. And

759
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:04,880
Speaker 3: there was some talk at the time of this particular

760
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 3: pistol that they thought it was like they called it,

761
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 3: like it's a woman's pistol dainty. I was like, that

762
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 3: does look dainty to me?

763
00:35:10,560 --> 00:35:14,600
Speaker 1: Do you think if she had said and had people testify,

764
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,759
Speaker 1: if she said I did it, he was abusive? Look

765
00:35:17,800 --> 00:35:19,880
Speaker 1: what he did in my face. This was self defense

766
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 1: in Anchorage. Beautiful white woman who is very Hollywood esque,

767
00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 1: do you think that she would have gotten off on

768
00:35:28,800 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: this idea of domestic violence leading to self defense.

769
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:34,319
Speaker 2: The problem is he said she said, isn't it.

770
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:36,760
Speaker 1: She's got two black eyes though, and you've got people

771
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,399
Speaker 1: saying she's being abused they've seen it, you know she has.

772
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 2: But it's always a he says, she said. And secondly,

773
00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,919
Speaker 2: very important, influential rich man as her husband. Yeah, very

774
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,160
Speaker 2: very important. He was head of like Alaska's Chamber of Commerce.

775
00:35:49,200 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: I mean he was like a big player in it.

776
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: And not just in Fairbanks, like he was well known

777
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: in Anchorage, he was well known across Alaska. So you

778
00:35:56,719 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: bring that up as a court case. Dead, but let's

779
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:01,359
Speaker 2: assume he had survived, or even if he had died,

780
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:03,839
Speaker 2: if it had got to trial. She said, no, no, no,

781
00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 2: he was beating me up. Those black eyes were from him,

782
00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:07,800
Speaker 2: and they'd have gone okay, but you still I didn't

783
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,560
Speaker 2: shot him there? Yeah, oh well he'd abuse me. It'd

784
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 2: been the tenth time it had happened, like any witnesses

785
00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:13,160
Speaker 2: for that.

786
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:14,360
Speaker 1: Why didn't you call the police?

787
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 2: And you know, because the police would have come around

788
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 2: like often happens today. They've gone this is a domestic issue,

789
00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:22,360
Speaker 2: really needs to be something that he's sort of amongst yourselves.

790
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,680
Speaker 1: What is the moral of the story as we wrap

791
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: this up? What's the takeaway?

792
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: The takeaway, I'm afraid is that I found which was

793
00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 2: how it affected me. I guess the most because again,

794
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: you know, I was I was what they called, like

795
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,880
Speaker 2: a stranger journalist to this. I didn't have any family connection.

796
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,840
Speaker 2: I'm not Alaska, I'm not American. I'd never been to Alaska.

797
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: Is generational trauma, you know, traumas goes through the generations

798
00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 2: with something like this. Everyone I spoke to here, everyone,

799
00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:55,239
Speaker 2: whether they were friends, where they were family, whether they

800
00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,920
Speaker 2: were grandchildren. Every one of them they'd been affected by

801
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,600
Speaker 2: it in some way, and always negatively. It's not just

802
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,280
Speaker 2: the one moment. Let's say it was a domestic abuse,

803
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:08,720
Speaker 2: violence issue that turned into her murder. It happens very frequently.

804
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 2: But the spider web that comes out of it, the

805
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,200
Speaker 2: family members, the friends, all the things that it affects,

806
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,040
Speaker 2: it affects all of them. All of them. It affected

807
00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,080
Speaker 2: them in a different way, either directly because it's like,

808
00:37:19,120 --> 00:37:22,000
Speaker 2: well my father was killed by my mother, or someone says,

809
00:37:22,040 --> 00:37:23,880
Speaker 2: you know, well I had a grandfather who you know.

810
00:37:23,880 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: I looked him up and he had a really important,

811
00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: interesting life. My family never talked about him. I have

812
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 2: a daughter now and she asked me about my dad,

813
00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 2: and I'll go, I don't know. We haven't really talked

814
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,120
Speaker 2: for thirty years. You know, he doesn't talk about his life.

815
00:37:35,440 --> 00:37:38,000
Speaker 2: It affected everybody, and like I say, I wasn't connected.

816
00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:40,120
Speaker 2: But there were definitely times when I was sitting down

817
00:37:40,200 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: talking to these people, and to Diane's children, who were

818
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:45,879
Speaker 2: both still alive. You know, I was talking to them

819
00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: and I was just thinking, what am I doing here?

820
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,040
Speaker 2: Why am I asking them all of these things and

821
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 2: bringing up all these unhappy memories. But it was because

822
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:54,359
Speaker 2: they were all saying to me, well, we don't know.

823
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:56,280
Speaker 2: This is just like a gap in our lives.

824
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 3: You know.

825
00:37:56,880 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: Sandra, who was Diane's eldest child, she said, I was

826
00:38:00,640 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: about five or six years old and my mother dropped

827
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 2: me off at school and I never saw again. And

828
00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:05,919
Speaker 2: the next thing I knew was she was dead.

829
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,200
Speaker 1: Do they believe your theory? You know?

830
00:38:08,280 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 2: That was the thing I was most terrified about, was

831
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 2: that when the book came out, that they would read it,

832
00:38:12,280 --> 00:38:15,320
Speaker 2: and they would read it and disagree. Now, obviously it's

833
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 2: very difficult for a child to say of a mother,

834
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:20,840
Speaker 2: you know, I think my mother was a murderer, or

835
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,600
Speaker 2: I think, in Diane's case, I think my mother killed herself.

836
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 2: But the people who have replied to me in depth

837
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:29,360
Speaker 2: have said you know, it's really rational and reasonable, and

838
00:38:29,400 --> 00:38:31,240
Speaker 2: I understand it, and it makes a lot of sense,

839
00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 2: and you've assembled a lot of information, and I really

840
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,760
Speaker 2: apprecience really helped for all that Uari we put around closure.

841
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:39,920
Speaker 2: A couple of people did say that to me, and

842
00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:41,840
Speaker 2: I said, look, you know, I'm so sorry. You know,

843
00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 2: I know this stuff in here you probably don't want

844
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:46,480
Speaker 2: to read, and I know it doesn't really bring anybody back,

845
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:49,399
Speaker 2: but hopefully it might make you at least have some

846
00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,640
Speaker 2: sort of idea of what happened or what you think happened,

847
00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:56,840
Speaker 2: why it happened, because everyone had all these different ideas

848
00:38:56,880 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 2: and different theories, and I'd say, look, honestly, that was

849
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,200
Speaker 2: not what happened. You know, I was talking to people

850
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:04,520
Speaker 2: who are younger than I am. Johnny had a child

851
00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 2: very late in life, in his sixties, and was only

852
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,319
Speaker 2: around for about fifteen years before he died. And he

853
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 2: was about the only person I talked to who was like,

854
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: I had a really good time with my dad. You know,

855
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,759
Speaker 2: he was really nice to me. He never talked about

856
00:39:16,760 --> 00:39:20,440
Speaker 2: what happened in Alaskaa, never never mentioned why would you,

857
00:39:20,680 --> 00:39:23,240
Speaker 2: But he said that when his father died, they found

858
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 2: a copy of the Life magazine that had the peace

859
00:39:25,239 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 2: about murdering it. So he kept it being never talked

860
00:39:28,440 --> 00:39:30,760
Speaker 2: about it. Why would you? But he was the only

861
00:39:31,120 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 2: person connected this who said, you know, I had a

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00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:35,239
Speaker 2: good time with my dad, Like I like my dad,

863
00:39:35,239 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: We got on well, you know, the rest of them

864
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: were all like, you know, my dad was difficult. My

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00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: dad disappeared from my life and was never talked about again.

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00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,279
Speaker 2: I thought my mother was a murderer. You know, it

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00:39:44,320 --> 00:39:46,680
Speaker 2: was never talked about, and who knows how much it helped,

868
00:39:46,719 --> 00:39:48,279
Speaker 2: but it was just like say, you know, you know what,

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00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 2: it wasn't like that. You know, your mother had a

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00:39:50,840 --> 00:39:53,800
Speaker 2: very difficult life and you know it ended really sadly

871
00:39:53,880 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 2: for her.

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00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:08,239
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

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00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,360
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Ghost Club, All That

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00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: Is Wicked, and American Sherlock. This has been an exactly

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00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:19,600
Speaker 1: right production. Our senior producer is Alexis Amerosi. Our associate

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00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:24,080
Speaker 1: producer is Alex chi. This episode was mixed by John Bradley.

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00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 1: Curtis Heath is our composer, artwork by Nick Toga. Executive

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00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,760
Speaker 1: produced by Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgariff and Danielle Kramer. Follow

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00:40:32,760 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 1: Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked

880
00:40:36,920 --> 00:40:39,480
Speaker 1: and on Twitter at tenfold more. And if you know

881
00:40:39,520 --> 00:40:41,960
Speaker 1: of a historical crime that could use some attention from

882
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,400
Speaker 1: the crew at tenfold more Wicked, email us at info

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00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,560
Speaker 1: at tenfoldmorewicked dot com. We'll also take your suggestions for

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00:40:49,640 --> 00:40:51,880
Speaker 1: true crime authors for Wicked Words