WEBVTT - Need A 4th?! Ep. 6 with Ben Crenshaw 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:09.640 M golf is the say anything in golf that doesn't change, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.360 anything that changes the best implying does this man a 0:00:12.360 --> 0:00:15.360 one time winner on the PGA Tour. The point Alan 0:00:15.520 --> 0:00:22.000 is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth Hello? 0:00:22.000 --> 0:00:25.040 This is Alan Chifnuck back for another Need a Fourth podcast, 0:00:25.120 --> 0:00:28.800 in which myself, Michael Bamberger, and Jeff Ogilvie take turns 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:32.080 surprising each other with a mystery guest. The other two 0:00:32.159 --> 0:00:34.080 co hosts usually have no idea who this person is 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.320 until we start taping, but on this occasion, the guest 0:00:38.400 --> 0:00:41.480 himself surprised us by jumping into our virtual hangout sooner 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:45.280 than expected. Um Strangely it was Ben Crunch. I was 0:00:45.360 --> 0:00:49.360 no technical ability whatsoever, normally doesn't even have a cell phone, 0:00:49.720 --> 0:00:52.640 but somehow he got into our our zoom hang out 0:00:53.200 --> 0:00:56.680 before we could get there. So there's there's no preamble. 0:00:56.800 --> 0:01:01.280 But before we get to a fascinating and life affirming 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:03.960 conversation with a gentle bed, we do need to thank 0:01:04.040 --> 0:01:07.920 our our sponsors Echo Golf, who make this podcast possible. Michael, 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.440 do you have something to say? Well? I think you 0:01:10.480 --> 0:01:12.160 know this about me on because you've known me well 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:15.560 for a long time UM marketing. Resistant, like you can't 0:01:15.600 --> 0:01:18.000 tell what kind of sweater I'm wearing today because it's 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:21.240 been blacked out, much like Tiger with the pin Man, 0:01:21.400 --> 0:01:24.880 you know he's black that. But Echo I can speak 0:01:24.880 --> 0:01:27.679 about authentically and naturally. And I want to ask you 0:01:27.680 --> 0:01:29.759 a question Echo, because I think you'll know where I'm 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:32.240 going with this. Have you noticed with this Echo shoe 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:35.520 you put it on and there's no quote breaking in period? 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:39.400 Have you had that right out of the box. They 0:01:39.440 --> 0:01:44.280 are very crushy, very comfy, no blisters, The leather is supple, 0:01:44.440 --> 0:01:46.800 it just it just molds around your foot in an 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:50.000 almost sensual way. So yes, I know you're speaking of Yeah. 0:01:50.080 --> 0:01:51.720 In fact, I had an experience with one of our 0:01:51.760 --> 0:01:54.200 other guests, Mike Mills, where he went to a golf course. 0:01:54.840 --> 0:01:56.920 I had forgotten one of issues. He had to go 0:01:56.960 --> 0:01:59.000 to the pro shop buy shoes. He didn't buy Echo. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:01.040 At the end of the day he had terrible blisters. 0:02:01.080 --> 0:02:03.720 And we have never forgotten about that. But I don't 0:02:03.720 --> 0:02:07.480 think it ever happens with an Echo shut not my experience. No, No, 0:02:07.560 --> 0:02:10.000 it's a great product. We're happy to wear them, and 0:02:10.000 --> 0:02:13.120 we were pleased they're sponsoring this podcast. So without further ado, 0:02:13.480 --> 0:02:17.919 let's get to Nita fourth. How are you been? Where 0:02:17.960 --> 0:02:23.960 are you? Jeff? I am sitting uh next to the 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:26.760 full length hall on the West Coast at Row Melbourne. 0:02:27.480 --> 0:02:31.800 Oh you lucky dog you. Oh my gosh. That's still 0:02:31.840 --> 0:02:34.320 one of my favorite courses in the world. I really 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.200 I tuned in a couple of weeks ago to watch 0:02:38.160 --> 0:02:43.520 Kingston Heath and Victoria. Uh I happened to be. You know, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:47.760 as we have talked, I'm a bashed fan of of 0:02:47.960 --> 0:02:51.160 the Australian courses, especially in the sand Belt. There's nothing 0:02:51.440 --> 0:02:55.000 like the sand Belt anywhere in the world. I still 0:02:55.040 --> 0:03:00.239 reckon that they're the most handsome bunkers I've ever seen 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:05.040 in my life. At at Royal Melbourne Kingston Heath, there's 0:03:05.080 --> 0:03:08.360 simply because there's no sand like it anywhere on the 0:03:08.360 --> 0:03:13.160 face of the earth. But I just really enjoyed I 0:03:13.240 --> 0:03:17.079 watched I watch people play it. Having been there, it's 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:19.359 really fun for me to watch and I know they're 0:03:19.360 --> 0:03:21.720 they're coming up with another one here pretty soon. What 0:03:21.880 --> 0:03:24.560 do they play? Jeff was in a week or two 0:03:25.520 --> 0:03:29.560 we play h said, there's a sand Belt Invitational tournament. 0:03:29.600 --> 0:03:35.800 We play um Kingston heath Role, Melbourne West, Yara Yarra 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:41.320 and Penitzia Kingswood North. Of course I've seen Yarra Yarra, 0:03:41.440 --> 0:03:47.040 which is wonderful too, but god, they're just respectacular. They're spectacular. 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.600 Jeff was talking about the sand in the sand belt 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.080 is very angular and therefore it can compact in a 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.360 unique way and that's how they can cut those sharp 0:03:56.440 --> 0:03:58.240 edges of the bunkers, which kind of blew my mind. 0:03:58.240 --> 0:04:00.360 Like I always I never thought about the different parties 0:04:00.440 --> 0:04:03.040 of sand. I would like to hear you guys talk 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:05.560 for thirty minutes about different sands and how it's affected 0:04:05.560 --> 0:04:10.440 your lives as designers, because that's incredible to me. Well, 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:12.640 I could just tell you the first time I saw 0:04:12.920 --> 0:04:19.280 Royal Melbourne, Um, I've never seen anything like it. Uh 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:23.160 and uh. Actually the first courts that I played in 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:28.239 Australia was Metropolitan Metro, which was wonderful, just wonderful golf course. 0:04:29.600 --> 0:04:33.719 But I went over to Royal Melbourne and I they 0:04:34.480 --> 0:04:40.680 size and the scope and uh, I just say, they're 0:04:40.800 --> 0:04:48.880 magnificent bunkers. They're meaningful, they they're bold. But yes, I 0:04:48.920 --> 0:04:51.080 don't think there's any sand like it on the face 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.240 of the earth one of the very few places, like 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:57.479 you mentioned that there's no collars on the greens. They 0:04:57.560 --> 0:05:00.760 just rolling. They just edge right into the buckers, which 0:05:00.800 --> 0:05:06.560 is a unbelievable contrast. And when you're standing out there 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.080 trying to hit an approach shot to any of those greens, 0:05:09.680 --> 0:05:14.200 it's very vivid, uh, And it's a it's a uh 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:18.400 it does mark where are you trying to go? But 0:05:18.520 --> 0:05:22.440 I think the size and the proportion and the different 0:05:22.440 --> 0:05:31.440 ways that uh, that really Mackenzie and Alex Russell. Alex 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:34.680 Russell to me is Webby one of the unsung heroes 0:05:34.720 --> 0:05:38.479 of golf architecture anywhere in the world. What a what 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:43.400 a craftsman he was, Uh, And I really do count 0:05:43.480 --> 0:05:47.520 myself very lucky to have spent a couple of hours 0:05:47.520 --> 0:05:50.360 with Claude Crockford to who was the old green keeper 0:05:50.960 --> 0:05:54.600 at Royal Melbourne. And I'll never forget a couple of 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.920 things that he said. He he stunned me with this one. 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:01.200 He said, you said, you know, you in America try 0:06:01.279 --> 0:06:03.240 to grow grass. He said, we try to keep it 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:09.400 from growing over here. And that just it has uh 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:16.040 sort of an insight as to his expertise at a craftsman. 0:06:16.120 --> 0:06:17.960 You know, he grew up bowling, He grew up building 0:06:18.000 --> 0:06:23.599 bowling greens in in Melbourne, and uh it was but 0:06:23.720 --> 0:06:26.440 the way that they keep golf courses and the way 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:29.960 that there are agronomy standards are as high as anywhere 0:06:29.960 --> 0:06:34.279 in the world. Uh. He described the process of how 0:06:35.279 --> 0:06:37.599 you know, every three or four years they re turf 0:06:39.680 --> 0:06:46.000 the grass. And he definitely believed that compacion was the 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:51.040 bane of all diseases. Uh. I just don't think that 0:06:51.080 --> 0:06:56.720 I was ever around anyone who was that learned. And uh, 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:05.200 he was so avid and his principles. I'll never forget 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:13.040 this too. One day I played with Greg Norman Melbourne. Uh. 0:07:13.160 --> 0:07:16.679 It was a very very hot day and the wind 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:20.040 was blowing hot from the north. It was about a 0:07:20.120 --> 0:07:23.880 hundred degrees, about a ten percent in humidity. I got 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:25.960 through and I went, god, I always want to see 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.720 what the crew does. How did the place looked like 0:07:28.720 --> 0:07:32.560 it was gonna be on fire? And a small crew 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:35.920 went out with a handheld hose and spent about two 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.480 minutes on each grin and then they laughed, and I said, 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:46.080 well that that's unbelievable. Uh, but it's when you talk 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.160 about firm conditions anywhere in the world. I mean, you 0:07:49.240 --> 0:07:53.880 know Lynks in the UK when you've had a drought. 0:07:55.040 --> 0:07:59.480 But to me, I was treated so many times in 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:08.240 Melbourne to to play firm firm services, so healthy, so healthy. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.320 Think about that a lot, but there's no no other 0:08:12.320 --> 0:08:16.920 place that you can do it, though, Jeff, have you 0:08:16.920 --> 0:08:20.400 ever had a chance to play Ben's course, Sandhills in Nebraska? 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.200 I haven't been to Sound Hills No, Unfortunately, it's been 0:08:25.240 --> 0:08:27.960 on the wish list for a while. But it's so 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:31.360 hard to get to um when you do what we 0:08:31.480 --> 0:08:34.360 do like and I'm sure Ben can relate to this 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:36.240 in the playing days. When you do what we do 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:38.560 and you love golf courses, all you want to do 0:08:38.640 --> 0:08:40.920 is play the great ones. But when you play an 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:43.800 average one Tuesday through Sunday every week, it's just hard 0:08:43.840 --> 0:08:46.120 to sort of roll out on Monday and go somewhere 0:08:46.160 --> 0:08:48.520 special because you're going to go play the next six days, 0:08:48.520 --> 0:08:50.559 somewhere that you don't really probably love, you know, I mean, 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:52.600 if you get a bit jaded and you never really 0:08:53.200 --> 0:08:56.840 the two. It doesn't go to fun places. You know. 0:08:57.120 --> 0:09:00.920 We don't go to Westchester County very often anymore, and 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:05.880 I mean, we do go to Carmel just pretty good. Um, 0:09:06.000 --> 0:09:11.320 we don't go to Nebraska, you know. Um. Yeah, So 0:09:12.120 --> 0:09:15.560 I haven't been to Soundhills, no, but I've played. I've 0:09:15.640 --> 0:09:17.600 been been. Give me a little tour of his place, 0:09:17.720 --> 0:09:22.280 Austin Golf Club, which was really cool. And I've always 0:09:22.280 --> 0:09:24.959 loved his because him and him and Bill's courses have 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.520 just such a like he was talking about role Melvin, 0:09:27.559 --> 0:09:30.480 they have. It's a subtle, it's a nuance. It's it's 0:09:30.559 --> 0:09:33.280 quite Uh, you have to go find the golf course, 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:36.200 you know, you have to find where the intelligence isn't it. 0:09:36.200 --> 0:09:38.400 And I think it's one of those They're always courses 0:09:38.440 --> 0:09:40.640 that you want to play again. And I think, which 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.720 is probably the ultimate compliment of an architect me if 0:09:44.760 --> 0:09:47.440 if anyone had ever played any of our courses, if 0:09:47.440 --> 0:09:49.040 they just say, if they finished their team, they just 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:50.679 want to go out and play again. And I think, well, 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.320 we've done a decent job here, you know, because my 0:09:53.400 --> 0:09:56.520 favorite courses I don't know. I mean, you read Golf 0:09:56.520 --> 0:09:58.880 magazine or Golf Digest and they have this list of 0:09:58.880 --> 0:10:01.520 how they rank course is and its shot values and 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:05.120 all that, you know, the juncts that they just talked about. 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:08.720 I don't understand, but to me it's um. If I 0:10:08.720 --> 0:10:10.640 want to go play again, and the one that's pulling 0:10:10.679 --> 0:10:12.600 me to the first to the hardest is my favorite, 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:17.559 you know. UM. And I think that's sometimes indescribable, but 0:10:17.640 --> 0:10:20.440 I think Bill and Ben's course is generally do that 0:10:20.480 --> 0:10:23.360 to me. Well, Jeff, you're you're right at right at 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.360 the peak where where you are. I can tell you this. 0:10:26.480 --> 0:10:30.199 You know, I have to tell you all the story. Uh. 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:32.959 You know, I've been lucky enough to win tournaments and 0:10:33.040 --> 0:10:38.640 I've had pressure putts. Jeff will appreciate this. We played 0:10:38.679 --> 0:10:42.600 the World Cup at Roal Melbourne and Mark mccomber was 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.040 my partner. We're coming down the last few holes and 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.960 we were very almost tied with the Ozaki brothers from 0:10:49.040 --> 0:10:53.800 Japan and Julie we had just had our first child, 0:10:54.320 --> 0:10:57.920 who was in Hawaii, and we were gonna finish, finished tournament, 0:10:58.000 --> 0:11:01.760 go back over to Hawaii. Ka Tron was two months old. 0:11:02.480 --> 0:11:05.160 We come down to the last hole and I have 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:09.720 to make this eight foot or downhill for us to win. 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:14.040 And Julie told me before that punch, she said, look, 0:11:14.960 --> 0:11:16.959 I've been away from that baby for two weeks. You 0:11:17.080 --> 0:11:22.960 better make that put before we've got this, you know, 0:11:23.120 --> 0:11:26.960 eight feet down on the ice, and somehow I got 0:11:27.000 --> 0:11:29.560 it in. But that's one of the pressure pots I 0:11:29.679 --> 0:11:32.920 ever had, and I was so proud to want it 0:11:32.960 --> 0:11:36.280 real Melbourne. But god, I'll never forget that. Julie and 0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:38.080 I laugh at that, and I said, Julie, you were 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:41.240 really tough on me. That's God. You don't know how 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:45.520 difficult that pot was. But you know, as an aside, 0:11:45.640 --> 0:11:48.800 I love to talk to anybody who can handle wing 0:11:48.920 --> 0:11:52.160 foot in the US Open. How about that, Jail. I'll 0:11:52.160 --> 0:11:56.600 never watch, never forget watching Jeff playing there. He played beautifully, 0:11:56.880 --> 0:12:00.760 played bold when he had to. That's you know, anybody 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.719 who has been around wingfoot and played it in competition, 0:12:04.800 --> 0:12:09.240 it is difficult, very difficult, and he handled them. And 0:12:09.360 --> 0:12:11.720 I'm very proud of him for doing that. He carry 0:12:11.760 --> 0:12:17.160 it off in great fashion. Yeah, wingfoot stuff. I'm glad 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:18.760 I don't play it every week. I'm not sure i'd 0:12:18.800 --> 0:12:20.640 still play golf if I played it every week. But 0:12:21.080 --> 0:12:25.160 it's such a treat. Um. I was back there this 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:28.240 summer actually for the first time for a few years, 0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:30.920 and every single time the Greens blow me away. You 0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:32.600 could have no rough around there in the place would 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.640 be really difficult. Um, there's not too many places like 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.920 I mean, I grew up around role Melbourne and the 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:45.760 Sound Belt that the greens are so important and where 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:47.800 you are around the greens wingfoot. If you're in the 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:49.800 wrong spot around the greens, I don't care who you said. 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.240 He's not getting it up and down, you know. Um. 0:12:52.400 --> 0:12:55.040 But if you're in the right spot, it's relatively sort 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:57.240 of doable. But it's finding the right spots really hard. 0:12:57.360 --> 0:12:59.880 It's just incredible. And I don't know about you've been, 0:13:00.040 --> 0:13:04.160 but I feel like if if we built wing foot 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.840 greens now, they'd run us out of the business and 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.800 they never give us another jump again. Yet they might 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.559 be they might be my favorite greens I know. With 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:19.440 were those contours, they'd be unmanageable, especially green speeds these days. Uh, 0:13:19.600 --> 0:13:24.199 superintendents you know have and they don't have contests between 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.120 each other, but they're very proud of of what they 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:31.280 can do. Uh. But you're right. You you study the 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:36.600 formations and the swings and the borrows on those greens. Uh, Wow, 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:39.960 they're they're pretty fierce. They don't need to get up 0:13:41.440 --> 0:13:46.480 when their tournament. Oh gosh, it's it magnifies your errors 0:13:46.679 --> 0:13:50.199 a lot. How do you guys feel about the new 0:13:50.280 --> 0:13:51.760 back to all three of you, how do you feel 0:13:51.800 --> 0:13:54.880 about We have seen it yet, but just the idea 0:13:54.880 --> 0:13:58.000 of a new back t on on thirteen out Augusta National. 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.160 This is the way golf's gone, and it's it's Augustin 0:14:02.280 --> 0:14:09.040 National has tried very hard to stay ahead of of things. Uh, 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.280 I can't. I think there were what maybe two players 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:16.280 in the last three years who could carry the ball 0:14:16.360 --> 0:14:21.239 over those trees across the corner, which is unfathomable in itself. 0:14:21.320 --> 0:14:26.040 But you know, I've just seen a picture of it. 0:14:26.120 --> 0:14:30.640 I haven't seen it in person. But you can't get 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.560 out of there. You've got to go. You've got to 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:37.000 go straight and then and then maybe hopefully a little turn. 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:41.560 But it's I'm gonna get back there, I guess in 0:14:41.640 --> 0:14:45.800 April and and look at it and say, I'm very 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:49.240 happy I don't have to look at that. But it's 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:59.520 the club has tried very hard two uh challenge players 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:05.120 these days. That's very difficult to do. Ah. I never 0:15:05.160 --> 0:15:09.360 thought that I'd see a day where well over half 0:15:09.440 --> 0:15:14.520 the field can carry the ball three hundred yards, ah 0:15:14.560 --> 0:15:20.680 and it and it. I know they've tried very hard 0:15:20.760 --> 0:15:25.080 to keep in the situation where your approach shots. People 0:15:25.160 --> 0:15:27.720 play the same clubs that they did a long time ago. 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:29.720 I don't I know, I'm not sure if that's possible 0:15:30.160 --> 0:15:34.440 these days. But especially if you have dry conditions, the 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:39.440 ball is gonna keep running, but will it will be 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:43.200 interesting to see. But then again, Jeff knows, you've got 0:15:43.280 --> 0:15:46.520 to get up and tackle those greens, get into the 0:15:46.560 --> 0:15:51.680 greens and position yourself. It's very difficult. Uh. You have 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:57.600 shots there, especially the little shots. I don't know about you, Jeff, 0:15:57.720 --> 0:16:01.360 the little shots that Augusta are. It always seemed to 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.680 me that you could practice all the little practice shots 0:16:04.720 --> 0:16:08.040 you wanted to, But in the tournament itself, you get 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:09.920 up to your ball and you say, God, I've never 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.120 had this shot before, so you have to have to 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.520 imagine it and have to feel it. It's a little 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.520 bit like Royal Melbourne, you know, you just you can 0:16:18.560 --> 0:16:20.840 practice there as long as you want, but you never 0:16:20.840 --> 0:16:27.120 seem to have the same shots, imagination and touch. Ben, 0:16:27.160 --> 0:16:31.160 when you played your first Masters in two, what club 0:16:31.240 --> 0:16:35.000 would you have been hitting in the can you remember? Oh? Yeah, 0:16:35.040 --> 0:16:38.720 I hit many many drive and three and four woods. 0:16:38.920 --> 0:16:40.720 You know, if you hit a good one off the 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.520 tee uh, with a little bit of turn, a little 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:47.040 bit of dangerous turn them to the left, that's what 0:16:47.120 --> 0:16:53.400 you were trying to do, no question, But uh, you 0:16:53.520 --> 0:16:58.160 think about that whole so many momentous decisions that were 0:16:58.200 --> 0:17:01.560 made there. H Uh. You know it comes in the 0:17:01.800 --> 0:17:05.119 in the round where if you do try it and 0:17:05.119 --> 0:17:07.320 you and you fail, it comes early enough and your 0:17:07.359 --> 0:17:09.159 round it sticks with you to the end of the 0:17:09.240 --> 0:17:12.000 day and you say to yourself, well should I have 0:17:12.080 --> 0:17:14.520 tried that? Or if you bring it off, it gives 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:21.200 you extra confidence as well. But then you have to 0:17:21.240 --> 0:17:25.399 try to two part number fourteen, which is hard enough. Uh. 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:29.920 But no, thirteen and fifteen have always been a great 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:35.160 part of that place, always will be. Uh. So many 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:40.119 exciting things have happened. Uh. But no, it played longer 0:17:40.160 --> 0:17:43.320 in those days, no question. But you know you with 0:17:43.480 --> 0:17:46.520 a persimmon club and a blot of ball, you could 0:17:46.520 --> 0:17:49.600 only drive so far. Jeff is a as a golf 0:17:49.600 --> 0:17:52.480 course architect, yourself, how would if you were presented with 0:17:52.520 --> 0:17:54.920 the question of what do we do on thirteen? What 0:17:55.200 --> 0:17:57.639 do you think you might have said? I don't know. 0:17:57.800 --> 0:18:02.240 Like Benn says, it's kind of it's what offs thatt um. 0:18:02.280 --> 0:18:05.440 In one sense, it's a shame, I think, because there's 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:09.440 something nice about, well, there's two sides that there's something 0:18:09.520 --> 0:18:11.960 nice about. We still play the same game that Jones did, 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:16.320 but we don't you know, um, we're still playing the 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:18.239 same course. Is that the beauty of the Masters as 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:23.520 we go to this beautiful place every single year almost indefinitely, 0:18:23.560 --> 0:18:25.240 it's been and you just you get to see every 0:18:25.240 --> 0:18:28.040 generation play these same holes. It's it's nice that we 0:18:28.080 --> 0:18:29.560 do that, and it's a little bit of a shame 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.320 that we have to change it. But we do have 0:18:31.400 --> 0:18:33.520 to change it, and you want to see you don't 0:18:33.560 --> 0:18:36.040 want to see if there's two or three going over 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:39.040 the trees now from the what's been the current tea, 0:18:39.640 --> 0:18:42.840 there's going to be going over the trees in a 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.240 few years time, and that's taking all the fun away 0:18:45.240 --> 0:18:47.560 from that hole because the fun has been said. I mean, 0:18:48.080 --> 0:18:50.720 it's a relatively simple hole. If you hit two great shots. 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:53.040 It's just really difficult to hit those two great shots, 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.120 you know, and you've got to really got to risk 0:18:56.160 --> 0:18:59.280 your tournament a little bit to make three there, you've 0:18:59.320 --> 0:19:00.720 got to take the war are on on the left, 0:19:00.720 --> 0:19:02.120 and you've got off the team and you've gotta take 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:03.800 the water on the right off the second shot. It's 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:09.920 almost the perfect hole. Um, and it's unbelievably far back 0:19:09.960 --> 0:19:12.560 that picture I've seen where that tea is like pen says, 0:19:12.560 --> 0:19:16.160 I'm pretty glad I don't have to play it right now. Um, 0:19:16.200 --> 0:19:20.000 But you know what, every time, at least in my era, 0:19:20.119 --> 0:19:23.159 Augusta was the change era, the big change here. I 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:25.440 know it's always evolving, it's always been changing, but it 0:19:25.720 --> 0:19:29.160 gained a lot of length in the last twenty years. Um. 0:19:29.200 --> 0:19:31.040 Every time we'd get there and it's like, oh, this 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.920 is too long, like seven everyone when they put the 0:19:33.920 --> 0:19:36.080 tea back onto everyone was complaining and moaning, we can't 0:19:36.119 --> 0:19:38.840 hit three irons into this green. This is ridiculous. Everyone's 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.840 hitting wedge in again, like they got it right. We 0:19:41.880 --> 0:19:43.560 all thought they were wrong, but they were right. They 0:19:43.560 --> 0:19:47.840 were ahead of the curve almost every time. So, um, 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:50.120 it'll be interesting to see. I'm sure it'll play really long, 0:19:50.160 --> 0:19:51.720 and there'll be a bit, a little bit of moaning. 0:19:51.760 --> 0:19:53.840 I mean, players are very careful about moaning at the 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:58.119 Master's because they want to come back, um, But in 0:19:58.160 --> 0:20:00.439 a few years time, I'm sure it'll be right. They 0:20:00.480 --> 0:20:05.080 haven't really missed the mark very often there, um, and 0:20:05.119 --> 0:20:06.840 it kind of needs to happen. It's great. It would 0:20:06.880 --> 0:20:09.439 be great to see the whole field having to hit 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:13.040 three iron or five wood or something from with the 0:20:13.040 --> 0:20:15.000 ball way above their feet and take that shot on. 0:20:15.160 --> 0:20:17.600 It's a much more difficult decision than it is with 0:20:17.640 --> 0:20:20.679 a sixth iron or even a nine on or some 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.240 of these kids hit in there now. So, as I said, 0:20:24.240 --> 0:20:26.160 it's it's a it's a slight shame, but it's where 0:20:26.200 --> 0:20:28.320 golf is, and it's such a great hole that it'll 0:20:28.359 --> 0:20:30.320 be it'll be fine, and it will still be one 0:20:30.359 --> 0:20:32.920 of the best holes in the world. And the boys 0:20:32.920 --> 0:20:35.320 are just going to have to work it out in 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:38.000 Monday Thursday. They're just going to have to work out 0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:39.679 what they want to do and how much they want 0:20:39.720 --> 0:20:43.600 to take on and and someday hopefully we get the 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:45.520 two leaders standing there with a three iron and a 0:20:45.560 --> 0:20:47.720 five wood in their hand like Faldo did in ninety 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:49.600 six and deciding which one do I hit, which one 0:20:49.640 --> 0:20:51.320 the way hit and standing there for three minutes, because 0:20:51.320 --> 0:20:54.760 that's really why the masters. I think it's so compelling 0:20:54.800 --> 0:20:58.880 to watch just because it makes players make decisions they 0:20:58.880 --> 0:21:01.600 don't want to make, but you have to make them. 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:04.080 You know. It forces you to go for thirteen when 0:21:04.119 --> 0:21:06.080 you really don't want to. That's every really hot shot 0:21:06.480 --> 0:21:08.119 when you've got a long club, but you have to 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.680 go because you can just tell that cost us or 0:21:11.720 --> 0:21:16.199 someone's up in the talent. It go goes you into 0:21:16.280 --> 0:21:18.959 taking a chance, you know, and it's yeah, you know, 0:21:19.280 --> 0:21:22.399 the targets are wide enough and it's inviting. You know 0:21:22.480 --> 0:21:25.439 that shot is downhill and you have to figure that 0:21:25.520 --> 0:21:27.960 and well, you know you're going the ball is going 0:21:28.000 --> 0:21:31.399 to travel a little further downhill. It's very difficult, of course, 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:34.440 But you know, I knew things were changing a good 0:21:34.440 --> 0:21:39.639 while ago when the new seventeen te at St. Andrew's 0:21:40.480 --> 0:21:43.480 was back over thrown and onto the new course, I said, wow, 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:48.880 that things are changing. So you know, it's holes like that, 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:53.439 like you say, yeah, yes, change, but you had to 0:21:54.119 --> 0:21:59.800 uh in the hands of these great, great players. I'm 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:04.200 having the best time watching so many great players these days. 0:22:04.359 --> 0:22:08.800 It's the quality of golf. Yes, it's a power game, 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:15.560 but it's it's it's It's wonderful to see the skills 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:19.240 come out at different times with all these guys, all 0:22:19.240 --> 0:22:21.640 these young guys who are trying to climb the ladder. 0:22:22.640 --> 0:22:27.199 Uh they you can see where they A lot of 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:31.080 it sometimes is where people have come from. I always 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:34.640 reckoned that people from Australia and people from South Africa 0:22:34.680 --> 0:22:39.240 could really play the game because of where they grew up. Uh. 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:46.520 You can handle breezy conditions, uh, hot conditions and very adaptable. 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:52.680 So I enjoyed meeting different people from across the world 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:56.800 and where they grew up and how they played Alan. 0:22:56.800 --> 0:22:58.399 How about for you, as someone who has written a 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:01.040 lot of memorable game stories from a what what would 0:23:01.080 --> 0:23:03.760 you if you if Fred Ridley called you and said 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:05.399 what should we do on third chain? What would you 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:09.000 tell him? I'm not expecting that phone call, but um, 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.840 I would enjoy it. Um. It's funny you mentioned that 0:23:12.840 --> 0:23:15.560 that Fouledo three iron, Jeff, because I've I've been lucky 0:23:15.560 --> 0:23:18.720 to witness a lot of amazing shots and pressure situations 0:23:18.800 --> 0:23:21.240 the majors, And I was standing right there on that 0:23:21.359 --> 0:23:24.040 rope line when Fouldo was standing out there in that 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.800 fairway and framed by the trees and the beautiful afternoon light. 0:23:28.560 --> 0:23:31.720 And you know, people always talk about the sound of 0:23:31.720 --> 0:23:34.440 of a strike and impact and it can be a 0:23:34.480 --> 0:23:38.439 little mythologized, but I can still hear that strike and 0:23:38.480 --> 0:23:41.680 the way that ball just rifled through the air before 0:23:41.680 --> 0:23:43.879 you even land on the green. I was like Greg's cooked. 0:23:44.040 --> 0:23:46.360 I mean, it was probably the most pure gold shot 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:48.400 I've ever seen my own two eyes. And um so 0:23:48.480 --> 0:23:52.120 that that's just a funny memory I have, And um yeah, 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.000 I would, I would tell Fred I understand why they 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:56.560