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Speaker 1: M golf is the say anything in golf that doesn't change,

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Speaker 1: anything that changes the best implying does this man a

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Speaker 1: one time winner on the PGA Tour. The point Alan

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Speaker 1: is he didn't go Hollywood. You need a fourth Hello?

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Speaker 1: This is Alan Chifnuck back for another Need a Fourth podcast,

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Speaker 1: in which myself, Michael Bamberger, and Jeff Ogilvie take turns

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Speaker 1: surprising each other with a mystery guest. The other two

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Speaker 1: co hosts usually have no idea who this person is

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Speaker 1: until we start taping, but on this occasion, the guest

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Speaker 1: himself surprised us by jumping into our virtual hangout sooner

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Speaker 1: than expected. Um Strangely it was Ben Crunch. I was

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Speaker 1: no technical ability whatsoever, normally doesn't even have a cell phone,

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Speaker 1: but somehow he got into our our zoom hang out

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Speaker 1: before we could get there. So there's there's no preamble.

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Speaker 1: But before we get to a fascinating and life affirming

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Speaker 1: conversation with a gentle bed, we do need to thank

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Speaker 1: our our sponsors Echo Golf, who make this podcast possible. Michael,

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Speaker 1: do you have something to say? Well? I think you

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Speaker 1: know this about me on because you've known me well

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Speaker 1: for a long time UM marketing. Resistant, like you can't

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Speaker 1: tell what kind of sweater I'm wearing today because it's

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Speaker 1: been blacked out, much like Tiger with the pin Man,

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Speaker 1: you know he's black that. But Echo I can speak

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Speaker 1: about authentically and naturally. And I want to ask you

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Speaker 1: a question Echo, because I think you'll know where I'm

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Speaker 1: going with this. Have you noticed with this Echo shoe

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Speaker 1: you put it on and there's no quote breaking in period?

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Speaker 1: Have you had that right out of the box. They

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Speaker 1: are very crushy, very comfy, no blisters, The leather is supple,

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Speaker 1: it just it just molds around your foot in an

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Speaker 1: almost sensual way. So yes, I know you're speaking of Yeah.

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Speaker 1: In fact, I had an experience with one of our

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Speaker 1: other guests, Mike Mills, where he went to a golf course.

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Speaker 1: I had forgotten one of issues. He had to go

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Speaker 1: to the pro shop buy shoes. He didn't buy Echo.

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Speaker 1: At the end of the day he had terrible blisters.

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Speaker 1: And we have never forgotten about that. But I don't

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Speaker 1: think it ever happens with an Echo shut not my experience. No, No,

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Speaker 1: it's a great product. We're happy to wear them, and

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Speaker 1: we were pleased they're sponsoring this podcast. So without further ado,

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Speaker 1: let's get to Nita fourth. How are you been? Where

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Speaker 1: are you? Jeff? I am sitting uh next to the

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Speaker 1: full length hall on the West Coast at Row Melbourne.

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Speaker 1: Oh you lucky dog you. Oh my gosh. That's still

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite courses in the world. I really

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Speaker 1: I tuned in a couple of weeks ago to watch

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Speaker 1: Kingston Heath and Victoria. Uh I happened to be. You know,

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Speaker 1: as we have talked, I'm a bashed fan of of

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Speaker 1: the Australian courses, especially in the sand Belt. There's nothing

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Speaker 1: like the sand Belt anywhere in the world. I still

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Speaker 1: reckon that they're the most handsome bunkers I've ever seen

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Speaker 1: in my life. At at Royal Melbourne Kingston Heath, there's

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Speaker 1: simply because there's no sand like it anywhere on the

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Speaker 1: face of the earth. But I just really enjoyed I

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Speaker 1: watched I watch people play it. Having been there, it's

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Speaker 1: really fun for me to watch and I know they're

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Speaker 1: they're coming up with another one here pretty soon. What

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Speaker 1: do they play? Jeff was in a week or two

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Speaker 1: we play h said, there's a sand Belt Invitational tournament.

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Speaker 1: We play um Kingston heath Role, Melbourne West, Yara Yarra

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Speaker 1: and Penitzia Kingswood North. Of course I've seen Yarra Yarra,

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Speaker 1: which is wonderful too, but god, they're just respectacular. They're spectacular.

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Speaker 1: Jeff was talking about the sand in the sand belt

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Speaker 1: is very angular and therefore it can compact in a

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Speaker 1: unique way and that's how they can cut those sharp

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Speaker 1: edges of the bunkers, which kind of blew my mind.

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Speaker 1: Like I always I never thought about the different parties

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Speaker 1: of sand. I would like to hear you guys talk

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Speaker 1: for thirty minutes about different sands and how it's affected

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Speaker 1: your lives as designers, because that's incredible to me. Well,

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Speaker 1: I could just tell you the first time I saw

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Speaker 1: Royal Melbourne, Um, I've never seen anything like it. Uh

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Speaker 1: and uh. Actually the first courts that I played in

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Speaker 1: Australia was Metropolitan Metro, which was wonderful, just wonderful golf course.

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Speaker 1: But I went over to Royal Melbourne and I they

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Speaker 1: size and the scope and uh, I just say, they're

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Speaker 1: magnificent bunkers. They're meaningful, they they're bold. But yes, I

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Speaker 1: don't think there's any sand like it on the face

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Speaker 1: of the earth one of the very few places, like

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Speaker 1: you mentioned that there's no collars on the greens. They

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Speaker 1: just rolling. They just edge right into the buckers, which

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Speaker 1: is a unbelievable contrast. And when you're standing out there

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Speaker 1: trying to hit an approach shot to any of those greens,

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Speaker 1: it's very vivid, uh, And it's a it's a uh

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Speaker 1: it does mark where are you trying to go? But

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Speaker 1: I think the size and the proportion and the different

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Speaker 1: ways that uh, that really Mackenzie and Alex Russell. Alex

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Speaker 1: Russell to me is Webby one of the unsung heroes

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Speaker 1: of golf architecture anywhere in the world. What a what

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Speaker 1: a craftsman he was, Uh, And I really do count

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Speaker 1: myself very lucky to have spent a couple of hours

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Speaker 1: with Claude Crockford to who was the old green keeper

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Speaker 1: at Royal Melbourne. And I'll never forget a couple of

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Speaker 1: things that he said. He he stunned me with this one.

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Speaker 1: He said, you said, you know, you in America try

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Speaker 1: to grow grass. He said, we try to keep it

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Speaker 1: from growing over here. And that just it has uh

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Speaker 1: sort of an insight as to his expertise at a craftsman.

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Speaker 1: You know, he grew up bowling, He grew up building

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Speaker 1: bowling greens in in Melbourne, and uh it was but

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Speaker 1: the way that they keep golf courses and the way

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Speaker 1: that there are agronomy standards are as high as anywhere

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Speaker 1: in the world. Uh. He described the process of how

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Speaker 1: you know, every three or four years they re turf

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Speaker 1: the grass. And he definitely believed that compacion was the

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Speaker 1: bane of all diseases. Uh. I just don't think that

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Speaker 1: I was ever around anyone who was that learned. And uh,

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Speaker 1: he was so avid and his principles. I'll never forget

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Speaker 1: this too. One day I played with Greg Norman Melbourne. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It was a very very hot day and the wind

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Speaker 1: was blowing hot from the north. It was about a

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Speaker 1: hundred degrees, about a ten percent in humidity. I got

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Speaker 1: through and I went, god, I always want to see

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Speaker 1: what the crew does. How did the place looked like

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Speaker 1: it was gonna be on fire? And a small crew

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Speaker 1: went out with a handheld hose and spent about two

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Speaker 1: minutes on each grin and then they laughed, and I said,

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Speaker 1: well that that's unbelievable. Uh, but it's when you talk

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Speaker 1: about firm conditions anywhere in the world. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: know Lynks in the UK when you've had a drought.

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Speaker 1: But to me, I was treated so many times in

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Speaker 1: Melbourne to to play firm firm services, so healthy, so healthy.

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Speaker 1: Think about that a lot, but there's no no other

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Speaker 1: place that you can do it, though, Jeff, have you

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Speaker 1: ever had a chance to play Ben's course, Sandhills in Nebraska?

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Speaker 1: I haven't been to Sound Hills No, Unfortunately, it's been

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Speaker 1: on the wish list for a while. But it's so

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Speaker 1: hard to get to um when you do what we

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Speaker 1: do like and I'm sure Ben can relate to this

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Speaker 1: in the playing days. When you do what we do

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Speaker 1: and you love golf courses, all you want to do

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Speaker 1: is play the great ones. But when you play an

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Speaker 1: average one Tuesday through Sunday every week, it's just hard

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Speaker 1: to sort of roll out on Monday and go somewhere

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Speaker 1: special because you're going to go play the next six days,

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Speaker 1: somewhere that you don't really probably love, you know, I mean,

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Speaker 1: if you get a bit jaded and you never really

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Speaker 1: the two. It doesn't go to fun places. You know.

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Speaker 1: We don't go to Westchester County very often anymore, and

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Speaker 1: I mean, we do go to Carmel just pretty good. Um,

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Speaker 1: we don't go to Nebraska, you know. Um. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: I haven't been to Soundhills, no, but I've played. I've

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Speaker 1: been been. Give me a little tour of his place,

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Speaker 1: Austin Golf Club, which was really cool. And I've always

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Speaker 1: loved his because him and him and Bill's courses have

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Speaker 1: just such a like he was talking about role Melvin,

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Speaker 1: they have. It's a subtle, it's a nuance. It's it's

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Speaker 1: quite Uh, you have to go find the golf course,

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Speaker 1: you know, you have to find where the intelligence isn't it.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's one of those They're always courses

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Speaker 1: that you want to play again. And I think, which

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Speaker 1: is probably the ultimate compliment of an architect me if

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Speaker 1: if anyone had ever played any of our courses, if

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Speaker 1: they just say, if they finished their team, they just

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Speaker 1: want to go out and play again. And I think, well,

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Speaker 1: we've done a decent job here, you know, because my

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Speaker 1: favorite courses I don't know. I mean, you read Golf

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Speaker 1: magazine or Golf Digest and they have this list of

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Speaker 1: how they rank course is and its shot values and

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Speaker 1: all that, you know, the juncts that they just talked about.

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Speaker 1: I don't understand, but to me it's um. If I

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Speaker 1: want to go play again, and the one that's pulling

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Speaker 1: me to the first to the hardest is my favorite,

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Speaker 1: you know. UM. And I think that's sometimes indescribable, but

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Speaker 1: I think Bill and Ben's course is generally do that

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Speaker 1: to me. Well, Jeff, you're you're right at right at

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Speaker 1: the peak where where you are. I can tell you this.

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Speaker 1: You know, I have to tell you all the story. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You know, I've been lucky enough to win tournaments and

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Speaker 1: I've had pressure putts. Jeff will appreciate this. We played

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Speaker 1: the World Cup at Roal Melbourne and Mark mccomber was

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Speaker 1: my partner. We're coming down the last few holes and

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Speaker 1: we were very almost tied with the Ozaki brothers from

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Speaker 1: Japan and Julie we had just had our first child,

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Speaker 1: who was in Hawaii, and we were gonna finish, finished tournament,

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Speaker 1: go back over to Hawaii. Ka Tron was two months old.

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Speaker 1: We come down to the last hole and I have

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Speaker 1: to make this eight foot or downhill for us to win.

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Speaker 1: And Julie told me before that punch, she said, look,

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Speaker 1: I've been away from that baby for two weeks. You

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Speaker 1: better make that put before we've got this, you know,

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Speaker 1: eight feet down on the ice, and somehow I got

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Speaker 1: it in. But that's one of the pressure pots I

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Speaker 1: ever had, and I was so proud to want it

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Speaker 1: real Melbourne. But god, I'll never forget that. Julie and

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Speaker 1: I laugh at that, and I said, Julie, you were

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Speaker 1: really tough on me. That's God. You don't know how

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Speaker 1: difficult that pot was. But you know, as an aside,

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Speaker 1: I love to talk to anybody who can handle wing

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Speaker 1: foot in the US Open. How about that, Jail. I'll

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Speaker 1: never watch, never forget watching Jeff playing there. He played beautifully,

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Speaker 1: played bold when he had to. That's you know, anybody

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Speaker 1: who has been around wingfoot and played it in competition,

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Speaker 1: it is difficult, very difficult, and he handled them. And

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Speaker 1: I'm very proud of him for doing that. He carry

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Speaker 1: it off in great fashion. Yeah, wingfoot stuff. I'm glad

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Speaker 1: I don't play it every week. I'm not sure i'd

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Speaker 1: still play golf if I played it every week. But

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Speaker 1: it's such a treat. Um. I was back there this

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Speaker 1: summer actually for the first time for a few years,

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Speaker 1: and every single time the Greens blow me away. You

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Speaker 1: could have no rough around there in the place would

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Speaker 1: be really difficult. Um, there's not too many places like

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Speaker 1: I mean, I grew up around role Melbourne and the

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Speaker 1: Sound Belt that the greens are so important and where

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Speaker 1: you are around the greens wingfoot. If you're in the

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Speaker 1: wrong spot around the greens, I don't care who you said.

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Speaker 1: He's not getting it up and down, you know. Um.

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Speaker 1: But if you're in the right spot, it's relatively sort

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Speaker 1: of doable. But it's finding the right spots really hard.

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Speaker 1: It's just incredible. And I don't know about you've been,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like if if we built wing foot

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Speaker 1: greens now, they'd run us out of the business and

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Speaker 1: they never give us another jump again. Yet they might

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Speaker 1: be they might be my favorite greens I know. With

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Speaker 1: were those contours, they'd be unmanageable, especially green speeds these days. Uh,

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Speaker 1: superintendents you know have and they don't have contests between

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Speaker 1: each other, but they're very proud of of what they

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Speaker 1: can do. Uh. But you're right. You you study the

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Speaker 1: formations and the swings and the borrows on those greens. Uh, Wow,

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Speaker 1: they're they're pretty fierce. They don't need to get up

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Speaker 1: when their tournament. Oh gosh, it's it magnifies your errors

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Speaker 1: a lot. How do you guys feel about the new

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Speaker 1: back to all three of you, how do you feel

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Speaker 1: about We have seen it yet, but just the idea

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Speaker 1: of a new back t on on thirteen out Augusta National.

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Speaker 1: This is the way golf's gone, and it's it's Augustin

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Speaker 1: National has tried very hard to stay ahead of of things. Uh,

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Speaker 1: I can't. I think there were what maybe two players

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Speaker 1: in the last three years who could carry the ball

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Speaker 1: over those trees across the corner, which is unfathomable in itself.

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Speaker 1: But you know, I've just seen a picture of it.

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Speaker 1: I haven't seen it in person. But you can't get

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Speaker 1: out of there. You've got to go. You've got to

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Speaker 1: go straight and then and then maybe hopefully a little turn.

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Speaker 1: But it's I'm gonna get back there, I guess in

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Speaker 1: April and and look at it and say, I'm very

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Speaker 1: happy I don't have to look at that. But it's

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Speaker 1: the club has tried very hard two uh challenge players

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Speaker 1: these days. That's very difficult to do. Ah. I never

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Speaker 1: thought that I'd see a day where well over half

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Speaker 1: the field can carry the ball three hundred yards, ah

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Speaker 1: and it and it. I know they've tried very hard

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Speaker 1: to keep in the situation where your approach shots. People

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Speaker 1: play the same clubs that they did a long time ago.

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Speaker 1: I don't I know, I'm not sure if that's possible

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Speaker 1: these days. But especially if you have dry conditions, the

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Speaker 1: ball is gonna keep running, but will it will be

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Speaker 1: interesting to see. But then again, Jeff knows, you've got

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Speaker 1: to get up and tackle those greens, get into the

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Speaker 1: greens and position yourself. It's very difficult. Uh. You have

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Speaker 1: shots there, especially the little shots. I don't know about you, Jeff,

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Speaker 1: the little shots that Augusta are. It always seemed to

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Speaker 1: me that you could practice all the little practice shots

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Speaker 1: you wanted to, But in the tournament itself, you get

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Speaker 1: up to your ball and you say, God, I've never

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Speaker 1: had this shot before, so you have to have to

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Speaker 1: imagine it and have to feel it. It's a little

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Speaker 1: bit like Royal Melbourne, you know, you just you can

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Speaker 1: practice there as long as you want, but you never

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Speaker 1: seem to have the same shots, imagination and touch. Ben,

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Speaker 1: when you played your first Masters in two, what club

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Speaker 1: would you have been hitting in the can you remember? Oh? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I hit many many drive and three and four woods.

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Speaker 1: You know, if you hit a good one off the

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Speaker 1: tee uh, with a little bit of turn, a little

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Speaker 1: bit of dangerous turn them to the left, that's what

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Speaker 1: you were trying to do, no question, But uh, you

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Speaker 1: think about that whole so many momentous decisions that were

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Speaker 1: made there. H Uh. You know it comes in the

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Speaker 1: in the round where if you do try it and

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Speaker 1: you and you fail, it comes early enough and your

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Speaker 1: round it sticks with you to the end of the

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Speaker 1: day and you say to yourself, well should I have

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Speaker 1: tried that? Or if you bring it off, it gives

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Speaker 1: you extra confidence as well. But then you have to

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Speaker 1: try to two part number fourteen, which is hard enough. Uh.

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Speaker 1: But no, thirteen and fifteen have always been a great

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Speaker 1: part of that place, always will be. Uh. So many

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Speaker 1: exciting things have happened. Uh. But no, it played longer

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Speaker 1: in those days, no question. But you know you with

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Speaker 1: a persimmon club and a blot of ball, you could

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Speaker 1: only drive so far. Jeff is a as a golf

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Speaker 1: course architect, yourself, how would if you were presented with

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Speaker 1: the question of what do we do on thirteen? What

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Speaker 1: do you think you might have said? I don't know.

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Speaker 1: Like Benn says, it's kind of it's what offs thatt um.

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Speaker 1: In one sense, it's a shame, I think, because there's

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Speaker 1: something nice about, well, there's two sides that there's something

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Speaker 1: nice about. We still play the same game that Jones did,

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Speaker 1: but we don't you know, um, we're still playing the

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Speaker 1: same course. Is that the beauty of the Masters as

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Speaker 1: we go to this beautiful place every single year almost indefinitely,

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Speaker 1: it's been and you just you get to see every

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Speaker 1: generation play these same holes. It's it's nice that we

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Speaker 1: do that, and it's a little bit of a shame

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Speaker 1: that we have to change it. But we do have

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Speaker 1: to change it, and you want to see you don't

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Speaker 1: want to see if there's two or three going over

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Speaker 1: the trees now from the what's been the current tea,

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Speaker 1: there's going to be going over the trees in a

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Speaker 1: few years time, and that's taking all the fun away

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Speaker 1: from that hole because the fun has been said. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it's a relatively simple hole. If you hit two great shots.

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Speaker 1: It's just really difficult to hit those two great shots,

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Speaker 1: you know, and you've got to really got to risk

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Speaker 1: your tournament a little bit to make three there, you've

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Speaker 1: got to take the war are on on the left,

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Speaker 1: and you've got off the team and you've gotta take

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Speaker 1: the water on the right off the second shot. It's

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Speaker 1: almost the perfect hole. Um, and it's unbelievably far back

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Speaker 1: that picture I've seen where that tea is like pen says,

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Speaker 1: I'm pretty glad I don't have to play it right now. Um,

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Speaker 1: But you know what, every time, at least in my era,

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Speaker 1: Augusta was the change era, the big change here. I

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Speaker 1: know it's always evolving, it's always been changing, but it

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Speaker 1: gained a lot of length in the last twenty years. Um.

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Speaker 1: Every time we'd get there and it's like, oh, this

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Speaker 1: is too long, like seven everyone when they put the

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Speaker 1: tea back onto everyone was complaining and moaning, we can't

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Speaker 1: hit three irons into this green. This is ridiculous. Everyone's

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Speaker 1: hitting wedge in again, like they got it right. We

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Speaker 1: all thought they were wrong, but they were right. They

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Speaker 1: were ahead of the curve almost every time. So, um,

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Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see. I'm sure it'll play really long,

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Speaker 1: and there'll be a bit, a little bit of moaning.

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Speaker 1: I mean, players are very careful about moaning at the

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Speaker 1: Master's because they want to come back, um, But in

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Speaker 1: a few years time, I'm sure it'll be right. They

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Speaker 1: haven't really missed the mark very often there, um, and

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Speaker 1: it kind of needs to happen. It's great. It would

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Speaker 1: be great to see the whole field having to hit

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Speaker 1: three iron or five wood or something from with the

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Speaker 1: ball way above their feet and take that shot on.

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Speaker 1: It's a much more difficult decision than it is with

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Speaker 1: a sixth iron or even a nine on or some

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Speaker 1: of these kids hit in there now. So, as I said,

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Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a slight shame, but it's where

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Speaker 1: golf is, and it's such a great hole that it'll

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Speaker 1: be it'll be fine, and it will still be one

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Speaker 1: of the best holes in the world. And the boys

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Speaker 1: are just going to have to work it out in

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Speaker 1: Monday Thursday. They're just going to have to work out

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Speaker 1: what they want to do and how much they want

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Speaker 1: to take on and and someday hopefully we get the

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Speaker 1: two leaders standing there with a three iron and a

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Speaker 1: five wood in their hand like Faldo did in ninety

348
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Speaker 1: six and deciding which one do I hit, which one

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Speaker 1: the way hit and standing there for three minutes, because

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Speaker 1: that's really why the masters. I think it's so compelling

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Speaker 1: to watch just because it makes players make decisions they

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Speaker 1: don't want to make, but you have to make them.

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Speaker 1: You know. It forces you to go for thirteen when

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Speaker 1: you really don't want to. That's every really hot shot

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Speaker 1: when you've got a long club, but you have to

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Speaker 1: go because you can just tell that cost us or

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Speaker 1: someone's up in the talent. It go goes you into

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Speaker 1: taking a chance, you know, and it's yeah, you know,

359
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Speaker 1: the targets are wide enough and it's inviting. You know

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Speaker 1: that shot is downhill and you have to figure that

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Speaker 1: and well, you know you're going the ball is going

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Speaker 1: to travel a little further downhill. It's very difficult, of course,

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Speaker 1: But you know, I knew things were changing a good

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Speaker 1: while ago when the new seventeen te at St. Andrew's

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Speaker 1: was back over thrown and onto the new course, I said, wow,

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Speaker 1: that things are changing. So you know, it's holes like that,

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Speaker 1: like you say, yeah, yes, change, but you had to

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Speaker 1: uh in the hands of these great, great players. I'm

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Speaker 1: having the best time watching so many great players these days.

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Speaker 1: It's the quality of golf. Yes, it's a power game,

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Speaker 1: but it's it's it's It's wonderful to see the skills

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Speaker 1: come out at different times with all these guys, all

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Speaker 1: these young guys who are trying to climb the ladder.

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Speaker 1: Uh they you can see where they A lot of

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Speaker 1: it sometimes is where people have come from. I always

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Speaker 1: reckoned that people from Australia and people from South Africa

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Speaker 1: could really play the game because of where they grew up. Uh.

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Speaker 1: You can handle breezy conditions, uh, hot conditions and very adaptable.

379
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Speaker 1: So I enjoyed meeting different people from across the world

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Speaker 1: and where they grew up and how they played Alan.

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Speaker 1: How about for you, as someone who has written a

382
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Speaker 1: lot of memorable game stories from a what what would

383
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Speaker 1: you if you if Fred Ridley called you and said

384
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Speaker 1: what should we do on third chain? What would you

385
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 1: tell him? I'm not expecting that phone call, but um,

386
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Speaker 1: I would enjoy it. Um. It's funny you mentioned that

387
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Speaker 1: that Fouledo three iron, Jeff, because I've I've been lucky

388
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Speaker 1: to witness a lot of amazing shots and pressure situations

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Speaker 1: the majors, And I was standing right there on that

390
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,040
Speaker 1: rope line when Fouldo was standing out there in that

391
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Speaker 1: fairway and framed by the trees and the beautiful afternoon light.

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Speaker 1: And you know, people always talk about the sound of

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Speaker 1: of a strike and impact and it can be a

394
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:38,439
Speaker 1: little mythologized, but I can still hear that strike and

395
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Speaker 1: the way that ball just rifled through the air before

396
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Speaker 1: you even land on the green. I was like Greg's cooked.

397
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Speaker 1: I mean, it was probably the most pure gold shot

398
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Speaker 1: I've ever seen my own two eyes. And um so

399
00:23:48,480 --> 00:23:52,120
Speaker 1: that that's just a funny memory I have, And um yeah,

400
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Speaker 1: I would, I would tell Fred I understand why they

401
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:56,560
Speaker 1: pushed it so far back. They don't want to have

402
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Speaker 1: to go back again in five years like they obviously

403
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: tipped it out. I hopefully they will. They will bring

404
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 1: the tea forward. You just you want almost every player

405
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Speaker 1: in the field have to make that decision, and if

406
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,159
Speaker 1: if they put it too far back, and and how

407
00:24:09,240 --> 00:24:11,720
Speaker 1: it's an automatic layup for half for two thirds of

408
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:13,960
Speaker 1: the field. It takes a lot of the romance out

409
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Speaker 1: of that hole. And um so finding the right mix,

410
00:24:17,680 --> 00:24:21,760
Speaker 1: testing the longest players, but also letting the Zach Johnson's

411
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,120
Speaker 1: or someone like that at least think about it. Zac's

412
00:24:24,119 --> 00:24:26,679
Speaker 1: about example, because he laid up every time. But you

413
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Speaker 1: know them it would be. I think it'd be a

414
00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,399
Speaker 1: shame if if it's just if it becomes a thoughtless

415
00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:35,919
Speaker 1: hole where um, so many guys just don't even they

416
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Speaker 1: hit it. They know they're not gonna go for it,

417
00:24:37,320 --> 00:24:38,680
Speaker 1: so they hit a three wood or a five wood

418
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Speaker 1: off the tea just to make sure they put in

419
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Speaker 1: the fairway. They hit another they knock it up there

420
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Speaker 1: with a five iron, and then it just becomes, you know,

421
00:24:44,680 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 1: basically a hundred yard part three. Like none of us

422
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Speaker 1: want that, so um air on the side of of

423
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Speaker 1: of keeping the drama and the the excitement. But I

424
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 1: think they know that instinctively. It's just difficult, you know.

425
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Speaker 1: I know that Jeff uh, when he thinks about building

426
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,399
Speaker 1: the course, you want to try to reach everybody that

427
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: you can. You would it brings variety. We always tried

428
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,719
Speaker 1: to get at part five that you could reach and

429
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 1: then one that you couldn't, just for variety's sake. Sometimes

430
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,800
Speaker 1: it doesn't always work out that way. Uh. The nature

431
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,159
Speaker 1: of the par five's at Augusta are such that on

432
00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,320
Speaker 1: certain days you can get there on all of all

433
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:39,520
Speaker 1: the eight's a little difficult going uphill, but uh, the

434
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,960
Speaker 1: the temptation with the with the water on the back

435
00:25:42,040 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: nine and the way it starts to climax is it

436
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: just doesn't happen that often in such a beautiful place.

437
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: And it's Uh. I've always said the acoustics of playing

438
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: that golf course in the tournament have a lot to

439
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:02,080
Speaker 1: do with it. If there's no place that sound means

440
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,000
Speaker 1: quite a lot. You always know where you are, You

441
00:26:05,040 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: always know who did what by the decibels of yells.

442
00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:14,959
Speaker 1: Uh just makes you excited. Uh. Just doesn't happen that

443
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:20,320
Speaker 1: in the world of golf that often. Um. You know,

444
00:26:20,320 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: both of you guys are obviously golf romantics, Michael as well,

445
00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,199
Speaker 1: but for for for Jeff and Ben, when you go

446
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 1: to a course that in your playing days that you

447
00:26:30,840 --> 00:26:34,200
Speaker 1: just don't love it, It doesn't stir the soul. It's

448
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,159
Speaker 1: probably has the initials TPC and it maybe not. But

449
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: it's just not a a wondrous piece of architecture. It's

450
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,920
Speaker 1: just a golf course. And like you, like you said, Jeff,

451
00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,120
Speaker 1: you got to slog through the practice rounds, the pro am,

452
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,680
Speaker 1: the tournament rounds. How do you set aside your own tastes,

453
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 1: in your own mental health so you can focus on

454
00:26:54,080 --> 00:26:56,120
Speaker 1: the job at Ham, which just make a lot of birdies,

455
00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:59,360
Speaker 1: like when you're essentially offended by the architecture, like how

456
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 1: challenging is for the two of you. In particular, I

457
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,920
Speaker 1: didn't struggle too much. There's enough to worry about when

458
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: you play golf, you know, like how am I hitting

459
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: it one? Am my? What am my swinging it like

460
00:27:12,760 --> 00:27:17,040
Speaker 1: this week? As my partning, as my chipping, um working

461
00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,639
Speaker 1: on something here and there. So I think most of

462
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:21,680
Speaker 1: a progolf I don't know how ben most of the

463
00:27:21,760 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: progolfs golfers headspaces filled up with how am I going

464
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:27,119
Speaker 1: to hit it better tomorrow? Or how am I going

465
00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,720
Speaker 1: to hold more puts tomorrow. I think it's a bonus

466
00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:34,720
Speaker 1: when you get to play an inspiring golf course. I think, um,

467
00:27:34,760 --> 00:27:36,679
Speaker 1: and you're just used to it. The PG two is,

468
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:40,640
Speaker 1: I guess, I mean, to its benefit and its detriment,

469
00:27:40,960 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 1: is very good at setting up stuff very similarly every week. Um,

470
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:50,000
Speaker 1: so you kind of know what you're going to get

471
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,720
Speaker 1: before you get there, and it's about how do I

472
00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 1: shoot the lower score around this course that I can

473
00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 1: a minutes a lot more fun obviously at Augusta or

474
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:03,200
Speaker 1: the Old Course or Riviera or raw Melbourne or um,

475
00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:05,480
Speaker 1: because there's a more and more depth and more nuance

476
00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 1: to the sport rather than just hit it straight and

477
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:12,760
Speaker 1: go find it and hit it straight again. Um, But

478
00:28:12,800 --> 00:28:14,880
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think it's the job. I mean,

479
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:18,399
Speaker 1: I fell in gold with love with golf courses slowly

480
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 1: over time, great architecture, I think. I mean, I grew

481
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:24,440
Speaker 1: up on the sand belt, so I didn't believe everybody

482
00:28:24,440 --> 00:28:26,080
Speaker 1: when they said, well, your courses are the sum of

483
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,359
Speaker 1: the best in the world, Like until I went away.

484
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 1: I thought, what do you mean they're just over this,

485
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 1: it's just around the court. What do you mean that

486
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: they all golf courses are like this? You know? And

487
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,280
Speaker 1: it was just gradually over time that I realized, Wow,

488
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:41,080
Speaker 1: it took me a long time to work out that

489
00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: I've grown up around such incredible golf courses. Um that

490
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:48,719
Speaker 1: most of the time I was just focused on how

491
00:28:48,720 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 1: do I hit the ball better or further? Or I

492
00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: can't fade it at the moment, what am I doing? Um?

493
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:56,600
Speaker 1: It was more game focused and course focused, and I

494
00:28:56,640 --> 00:29:00,280
Speaker 1: think the golf course stuff came gradually, I mean right now.

495
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 1: And then there was the offensive setups. There was this

496
00:29:03,200 --> 00:29:06,760
Speaker 1: period early in my career, and it's probably been it's

497
00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 1: come and gone over the years. It seems to have

498
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:10,920
Speaker 1: gone for now, which is nice. Just the hack out

499
00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 1: rough when you hit it off the tea and you

500
00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:15,160
Speaker 1: knew you just pulled sander On out. As soon as

501
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 1: you hit in the roff, you'd walk up with fairway

502
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 1: with your sund on because there's the only club you're

503
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:19,480
Speaker 1: ever going to hit for your second shot, because you

504
00:29:19,520 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 1: were in the rough. That really drove me nuts. And

505
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 1: I had trouble going seventy two holes giving my head

506
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: in a good space when that was happening, because I

507
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: think recovery is the some of the beauty of golf

508
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: is that eggs getting yourself out of the problem you

509
00:29:34,360 --> 00:29:38,680
Speaker 1: get yourself into. UM. And if the best courses and

510
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 1: the best our favorite golfers ever have been masters at

511
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,200
Speaker 1: doing that, UM. It frustrated me a lot when it

512
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,239
Speaker 1: was just you hit it the roff and you just

513
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 1: have to hack it out and try to get it

514
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:50,719
Speaker 1: up and down. For part of that was boring to me,

515
00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: and that annoyed me. But most of the time, the

516
00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,720
Speaker 1: challenge of actually playing the game was enough, you know,

517
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: and it was just cream on type of what was

518
00:29:58,400 --> 00:30:01,320
Speaker 1: a great cause. I agree with Jeff. I mean, the

519
00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:04,880
Speaker 1: hardest circumstances to play, at least in my career, was

520
00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 1: playing the US Open, where it seemed like thirty years

521
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 1: in a row, you knew exactly what the setup was

522
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:21,320
Speaker 1: going to be. It's very ironclad, uh thirty six thirty

523
00:30:21,400 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 1: seven yards wide or approaching forty and certain servistances. But

524
00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 1: the rough was brutal on both sides, and you just

525
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 1: it was very penal, but you knew what was gonna happen,

526
00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: and it was very frustrating. Like Jeff said that, you

527
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:42,240
Speaker 1: you know, you hit the ball the rough, there's only

528
00:30:42,280 --> 00:30:45,040
Speaker 1: one thing to do is hack it out and try

529
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 1: to get it up and down somehow. But that's the way.

530
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:54,280
Speaker 1: It was brutally tough, uh uh fearsome because you knew

531
00:30:54,360 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 1: what was the whole week was going to be that way,

532
00:30:57,320 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: so put the no question if us on the straight drivers. Uh,

533
00:31:03,520 --> 00:31:06,280
Speaker 1: It's very tough to do a lot of golf courses,

534
00:31:06,320 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 1: but it was very consistent. I think our uh P

535
00:31:11,280 --> 00:31:13,320
Speaker 1: J boat right from the U s g A set

536
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:15,840
Speaker 1: up the courses many many years. You knew exactly what

537
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 1: you were going to get. Uh. Things change a little

538
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: bit later, probably for the better, but it was you

539
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 1: knew what was gonna happen. A lot of other major

540
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 1: tournaments went that way. To the p G A of

541
00:31:33,280 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: American went many years. Was uh, same setups, uh, but

542
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 1: a little bit like Jeffson, sometimes it's not the true

543
00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:49,800
Speaker 1: revealer of a golf course and it's makeup. Uh. I

544
00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: was lucky to when I started traveling as an amateur

545
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,040
Speaker 1: through college, I would go seek out a golf course

546
00:31:58,080 --> 00:31:59,959
Speaker 1: that I had heard about, and I'd go visit it,

547
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 1: look at it, and it really kind of Uh. That

548
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: was my thesis uh in architecture, started seeing different places,

549
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:15,760
Speaker 1: see how things work, to see what people were talking about.

550
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 1: They said, way, do you see this green way? Do

551
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,880
Speaker 1: you see this whole? You know, things like that. So uh,

552
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: you know, in Jeff's case, you grew up right right

553
00:32:26,520 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 1: next to some of the best courses in the world.

554
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,600
Speaker 1: I have to chuckle with that. It must be unbelievable

555
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 1: you grew up around there and everything else doesn't come down. H.

556
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:39,320
Speaker 1: I've never said anything like it, though. When I went

557
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: through the first time, I said, God, this is completely fantastic.

558
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 1: Now it's unbelievable. I because you don't believe it when

559
00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: everybody tells you you live next to the best course

560
00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:51,600
Speaker 1: of the world, on the one next door that's that's

561
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 1: one as well, and then the one just kept two

562
00:32:54,080 --> 00:32:55,640
Speaker 1: balls down the road is as well. It's like, there's

563
00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:57,760
Speaker 1: no way we didn't have the best stuff in this right,

564
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 1: And it's not until you go somewhere else to realize that.

565
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 1: You must have to go away. So the alchemists that

566
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:05,560
Speaker 1: that great book, you have to go away to realize

567
00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:08,000
Speaker 1: that it's all right in front of you. You know, Um,

568
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: it was incredible, so spoiled, amazing. So most people start

569
00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,040
Speaker 1: at some local communiti that they haven't ranked the bunkers since,

570
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:20,400
Speaker 1: and um there's there's not much going on there and

571
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: it's pretty poor. And they go up and they fantasize

572
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 1: about playing at these great golf courses, and eventually, one day,

573
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 1: after thirty years of golf, they get to go play

574
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 1: somewhere fantastic. I was the other way around, um, which

575
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:35,640
Speaker 1: is an interesting way to do it. Now people people

576
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: can see it on television, but unless you're there, you

577
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 1: just you can't comprehend how how the wonders it is.

578
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 1: And like I said, in the hands of great architects

579
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 1: and people who take care of them and know what

580
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,800
Speaker 1: they're doing. It's just it's very neat. Then you may

581
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:04,000
Speaker 1: you may know that Jeff is doing work at Madonna. Uh, Jeff,

582
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:06,080
Speaker 1: you are too young to remember. But I am not

583
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,560
Speaker 1: how well Ben played at the nineteen seventy five US

584
00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 1: Open at Madonna. Who was a shot out of the

585
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 1: uh Lou Graham, John mahaffey playoff? Do I have that right?

586
00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 1: You're you're exactly right? And I blew it, blew what happened?

587
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:28,600
Speaker 1: What happened the seventeenth hole there, and and the way

588
00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:33,200
Speaker 1: that the exactly the thirteenth hole. Now it's seventeen very long,

589
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,839
Speaker 1: part three over the water, and I hit this two

590
00:34:35,880 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: iron and I hit it in the toe and and

591
00:34:38,800 --> 00:34:42,320
Speaker 1: and rinched it before the green. That was my double bogie,

592
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:45,240
Speaker 1: and that I've lost, I've got. I missed the playoff

593
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 1: by one, but it was right there before me. But

594
00:34:48,680 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 1: I didn't execute painful painful to iron. Uh that was

595
00:34:57,000 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: my best open finish, US Open finish. But uh, yeah,

596
00:35:01,520 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: Lou Graham, Lou Graham and John mahaffy. But I'm glad

597
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:10,000
Speaker 1: you're working at Madonnah. It's a that spectacular place. It's

598
00:35:10,000 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 1: so wonderful holes there, stately trees, uh and some good

599
00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 1: strong holes, my gosh, lots of good holes. And you

600
00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,400
Speaker 1: know in Chicago in summer, you have to deal with

601
00:35:22,440 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 1: the breeze. You have to play the wind in Chicago.

602
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,680
Speaker 1: Probably Jeff's case will probably cut down a few trees

603
00:35:30,400 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: and make the wind, make the winds sing through those trees.

604
00:35:34,200 --> 00:35:37,440
Speaker 1: But he's got a wonderful place to work with. Madonna

605
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:41,440
Speaker 1: has been one of our great courses and great membership,

606
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 1: very proud memberships there. Yeah, it's very exciting for us.

607
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 1: It's uh, as you said, it's an incredible property, very grand.

608
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 1: Just driving in you feel it feels very big and

609
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 1: special and like you said, proud membership, very engaged in

610
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 1: the club. And yeah, way privileged to get a chance.

611
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's gonna be fun. It's a great place.

612
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: The story it's had, so there's not many courses it's in.

613
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:09,839
Speaker 1: It's in that short list of clubs that have had

614
00:36:10,680 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: all the biggest tournaments in the US. You know, it's

615
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:15,640
Speaker 1: had US Opens and Roadic Cups and p g I

616
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 1: Tour events and um for for and a really interesting

617
00:36:21,520 --> 00:36:25,319
Speaker 1: there's a reason for that and then jeh, absolutely, yeah, absolutely,

618
00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:29,879
Speaker 1: it's it's got a scale and a feel that's just yeah,

619
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:32,200
Speaker 1: it's pretty special place. So it's gonna be it's gonna

620
00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:35,680
Speaker 1: be fun. Hopefully we hopefully we do a nice job.

621
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:41,560
Speaker 1: I mean, in job like that of Jeff, how how

622
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,279
Speaker 1: much latitude you have can can You're probably not going

623
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,000
Speaker 1: to reroute it. But is it just just to take

624
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: what's there and make a little spiffier or do you

625
00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:54,120
Speaker 1: have the freedom to really reimagine some of the holes

626
00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:56,680
Speaker 1: and and you know, because this place does have a

627
00:36:56,719 --> 00:37:02,440
Speaker 1: history and a pedigree, so how does that constrain you? Um, well,

628
00:37:02,600 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 1: it's interesting. Um, sometimes when we work in Australia, um,

629
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,000
Speaker 1: we have to go through seven different committees and boards

630
00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: and twelve different member meetings to be able to move

631
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: a bunker, you know. Um. But in the US we've

632
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:27,040
Speaker 1: found generally that very often it's like, well, you guys

633
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,600
Speaker 1: are the experts. You tell us, you know, and if

634
00:37:29,640 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 1: we sort of if we suggest something bold, they'll think

635
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 1: about it and go, yeah, that's great to it, and

636
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: if um, we don't, they'll be disappointed that we didn't

637
00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 1: suggest something bold, you know. So, I mean it's not

638
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: Madonna is so great, the bones of it are so great,

639
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 1: and the land is so great, um that there's going

640
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 1: to be some mostly just polishing the diamond really and

641
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: sort of I mean courses chat, I mean trees grow,

642
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: and greens deteriorate, and bunkers deterior eight and cutting lines move,

643
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:04,560
Speaker 1: you know, like you take photos of fantastic and my

644
00:38:04,640 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 1: data has got this great sort of archives of photos

645
00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 1: over the years, and you can see how much golf

646
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: courses move without them trying to make them move over

647
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,800
Speaker 1: time and minutes an organism, um. And the guy cutting

648
00:38:15,800 --> 00:38:19,120
Speaker 1: the greens cut the greens in seven but then a

649
00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 1: new guy cut them and he sort of cut them

650
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,360
Speaker 1: in a little bit of a different place. And the

651
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: bunker is the sound splash out of the bunkers that

652
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,239
Speaker 1: buy some of the bunkers get bigger and smaller, and

653
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 1: it moves, so a lot of it is sort of

654
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,399
Speaker 1: going picking through all of that and sort of where

655
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: were the best versions of these holes over the years,

656
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:40,839
Speaker 1: and um trying to sort of have some historical sort

657
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 1: of a nod to history and when the second or

658
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,080
Speaker 1: the third, or the eighth or the twelveth, or when

659
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,920
Speaker 1: it was at its best state, you know, having a

660
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 1: look at that and can we sort of find that again, um,

661
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:58,000
Speaker 1: and just get back to the best version of the

662
00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: golf course that it can be. And sometimes that might

663
00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,920
Speaker 1: be moving green or moving a hole, and sometimes the

664
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:06,600
Speaker 1: holes in the perfect place and you might just have

665
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:12,480
Speaker 1: to rebuild the bunkers for function. Um. So we're a

666
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:18,000
Speaker 1: little bold on the plan in spots, but where generally

667
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,359
Speaker 1: sort of pretty. As I said, sympathetic to that. The history,

668
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:23,319
Speaker 1: it's got really interesting history. It was really hard to

669
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:27,600
Speaker 1: find which architects had ever been there. It's a really

670
00:39:27,640 --> 00:39:29,560
Speaker 1: sort of checking history. They've had a lot of people

671
00:39:29,640 --> 00:39:31,880
Speaker 1: come to do what we're doing in the last hundred

672
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 1: years at madna UM. So combing through the boys, Michael

673
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,720
Speaker 1: and actually are fantastic at finding that they found pictures

674
00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: and evidence of architects going there. The club didn't even know,

675
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,919
Speaker 1: which was kind of fun. Yeah, yeah, really really cool.

676
00:39:52,400 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 1: If you can have access to get arcads and you

677
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:58,400
Speaker 1: really see what has happened through the years, it's such

678
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:03,680
Speaker 1: a help. As you know, uh, like you say, bunker

679
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 1: edge changes, putting green sizes changed through the years with

680
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:13,279
Speaker 1: the gronomy and this and that. But like you said,

681
00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:14,680
Speaker 1: if you have a good set of our caves. You

682
00:40:15,239 --> 00:40:18,440
Speaker 1: just know when you talk to the older members and

683
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:21,040
Speaker 1: this and that and you rely on them, it's fun.

684
00:40:21,200 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 1: It's fun. Yeah, we've loved it. If I if you

685
00:40:24,239 --> 00:40:26,320
Speaker 1: had any advice, I think you'd probably agreed. Ben of

686
00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: anyone who had a golf course. You just take photos

687
00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:31,759
Speaker 1: all the time and put them in the archives, you know,

688
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:36,920
Speaker 1: and get testimonials for members, and just just record everything

689
00:40:36,960 --> 00:40:40,239
Speaker 1: because over the years, um, the clubs where you go

690
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 1: to where they don't have any evidence of what was

691
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: there before. It's kind of disappointing and you have to

692
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,560
Speaker 1: decipher it, which is kind of fun. But it's fantastic

693
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: when you've got the records, especially of such an old

694
00:40:50,120 --> 00:40:55,840
Speaker 1: place like Madonna, because um, it's it's just interesting anyway,

695
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:58,319
Speaker 1: if you're into golf courses, it's just fantastic to read

696
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:01,359
Speaker 1: about how people they used to play the tea from

697
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:02,799
Speaker 1: over there. Can you believe that? I mean there might

698
00:41:02,800 --> 00:41:04,640
Speaker 1: be a standard hundred foot trees there, but the tea

699
00:41:04,760 --> 00:41:06,120
Speaker 1: used to be over there, you know, and you go

700
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: stand there, it's like, wow, it would have been a

701
00:41:07,560 --> 00:41:10,600
Speaker 1: better hole from here, but we can't move seventeen hundred

702
00:41:10,600 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 1: foot oak trees, so we better go back to the

703
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,000
Speaker 1: time this. I just find that stuff really really interesting. Um,

704
00:41:16,520 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 1: it's like an archaeological dig in a way, sort of

705
00:41:20,640 --> 00:41:22,879
Speaker 1: digging through the history of a course, especially of course

706
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 1: like Madonna that's had so many sort of so many

707
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 1: hands touch it. You know. It's really a combination of

708
00:41:30,800 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people over the years sort of putting

709
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:37,240
Speaker 1: their touch on it and changes here and then changing

710
00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,319
Speaker 1: it back because we didn't like that. Twenty years later

711
00:41:39,360 --> 00:41:44,000
Speaker 1: and um, we had a really interesting I think it's

712
00:41:44,000 --> 00:41:47,400
Speaker 1: shady ocause I'm sure they'd be they'd be fine about

713
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: telling us there was at one point the eighteenth that

714
00:41:49,560 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: Shady sort of goes over a hill and at one

715
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,879
Speaker 1: point Mr Hogan had put a bunker in I think

716
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: on the right hand side of the fairway. Ben might

717
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:58,480
Speaker 1: even remember the bunker. I don't know when it was there,

718
00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:01,640
Speaker 1: but um, and it was over the hill. It was

719
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 1: a bunker that was sort of blind, you couldn't see it. Um,

720
00:42:04,760 --> 00:42:06,320
Speaker 1: and it turned out to be an awful bunker. I

721
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:08,160
Speaker 1: don't know how long it was there for. And they

722
00:42:08,200 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: filled it in and I think they were telling that

723
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: someone mentioned Mr Hogan, remember that bunker that you put

724
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 1: down on the right hand side of the eighteenth there

725
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:15,160
Speaker 1: was never a bunker on the right hand side of

726
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:20,520
Speaker 1: the end. He'd erased it from the whole, and he

727
00:42:20,560 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: erased it from history just by denying that he'd ever

728
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 1: put one there. So those sort of things I just fanty.

729
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,840
Speaker 1: I just love that stuff about golf and golf courses.

730
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:35,960
Speaker 1: And yeah, the arcrafts are brilliant. God, that guy, he

731
00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:40,640
Speaker 1: can't believe this. Uh. Thinking the other night that in

732
00:42:40,760 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 1: two successive nights in Fort Worth I had dinner with

733
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:50,799
Speaker 1: Mr Hogan and his wife and Byron Nelson and his

734
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:56,280
Speaker 1: wife were two successive nights, which was I'll never forget

735
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:57,960
Speaker 1: that as long as I lived. And they were two

736
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 1: different people and a lot of big for each other.

737
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,319
Speaker 1: Oddly enough, they grew up in the same town, the

738
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 1: same candy yard. But I was lucky enough to have

739
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:16,520
Speaker 1: known them both. Cherished my friendships with both. And uh,

740
00:43:18,880 --> 00:43:22,160
Speaker 1: I don't know how many people would would have ever

741
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 1: had dinner two successive nights when with those two. Uh. God,

742
00:43:31,120 --> 00:43:33,920
Speaker 1: I think about what they accomplished in the game and

743
00:43:33,960 --> 00:43:37,240
Speaker 1: how how much that people looked up to them both.

744
00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:42,080
Speaker 1: That's quite remarkable. So I'm very lucky. What's your best

745
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:48,960
Speaker 1: boging story? He he came out. I played. This was

746
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:52,880
Speaker 1: really funny. I played around at Colonial in the morning.

747
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: It was very hot day, and I went out to

748
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,799
Speaker 1: Shady Oaks. I was going to hit some balls in

749
00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:06,080
Speaker 1: the afternoon, and um, I was. I was not playing well,

750
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: and so I went out and h the Little nine

751
00:44:11,120 --> 00:44:13,719
Speaker 1: is what they call it over that's where Mr Hogan practice.

752
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: So I went out there and was hiting balls and

753
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 1: he came over here. He comes over in his cart

754
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: and he said, all right, let me see you've hit

755
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: a few. So I did, and I wasn't hitting them

756
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:26,200
Speaker 1: well at all, left, right, every which way. And he

757
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:28,800
Speaker 1: looked at me, said, well, what did you shoot today?

758
00:44:28,840 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: And I said I shot sixty five And he did

759
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:35,960
Speaker 1: not want to hear anything like that, and he said

760
00:44:36,800 --> 00:44:38,839
Speaker 1: he watched me a couple more shots, and he just

761
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 1: took off. He said, well, good luck to you, fella,

762
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 1: and he just drove off. He always kind of teased

763
00:44:46,600 --> 00:44:50,040
Speaker 1: me because I knew Jackie Burke and Jimmy de Merritt

764
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:55,040
Speaker 1: very well. He loved talking about those two. But now

765
00:44:55,120 --> 00:45:01,040
Speaker 1: I had some clubs made, and he always teased. But

766
00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: Barron was a very It's like a grandfather, you know,

767
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,160
Speaker 1: very very different. Uh. He'd always try to help, but

768
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 1: to no avail in both both camps, but I know

769
00:45:12,640 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 1: them both. Uh cherish those times. I'm terribly sorry to

770
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:23,239
Speaker 1: break into this episode of You to Fourth because it's

771
00:45:23,280 --> 00:45:25,200
Speaker 1: it's so much fun to listen to to bank crunch

772
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 1: opine on so many things. But we do want to

773
00:45:27,800 --> 00:45:30,760
Speaker 1: tip our cap to our very generous corporate sponsors, Link Soul.

774
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 1: I'm a huge fan of the clothing they make. I've

775
00:45:33,800 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 1: been wearing it for a super long time. Definitely predates

776
00:45:36,920 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 1: their alignment with this podcast is an authentic testimonial. I

777
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:43,600
Speaker 1: do love their clothes. Um, and we're doing kind of

778
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:46,200
Speaker 1: a fun little giveaway. If you go to the fire

779
00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 1: Pits Instagram handle, you have to follow us and you

780
00:45:48,640 --> 00:45:50,919
Speaker 1: have to comment on this episode. Shouldn't be hard. There's

781
00:45:50,920 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 1: been a lot of thought provoking topics and that will

782
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:55,799
Speaker 1: make you eligible for this gift card, which we will

783
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:58,560
Speaker 1: reveal in a very splashy public way and you could

784
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:03,439
Speaker 1: gets cool clothing on us. So thanks for supporting Links Soul,

785
00:46:03,480 --> 00:46:05,279
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Need a Fourth. Now back to

786
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,640
Speaker 1: Mr Ben Crenshaw. Then this is a nutty question. This

787
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: is for all three of you, guys. Um, then you've

788
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 1: played courses that don't have well, Jeff made a funny

789
00:46:15,120 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: reference earlier to uh municipal courses that hadn't had bunkers

790
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: rakes since the late eighties. How would you feel been

791
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 1: about golf courses not having uh rakes and bunkers. Well,

792
00:46:26,680 --> 00:46:32,720
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's some places cannot possess the tools

793
00:46:32,719 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: to keep courses like that, so it's what they have

794
00:46:36,239 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 1: to do. But you finally say, well, this is a

795
00:46:39,160 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 1: golf course, and and people this is a place where

796
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: it's not possible, so you play it. That's how people

797
00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: learn uh uh uh. It's a it's something that's not

798
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,439
Speaker 1: always possibly. It's influence and as much as I love

799
00:46:57,520 --> 00:47:01,440
Speaker 1: Augusta National, it's only place in the world where you're

800
00:47:01,440 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: going to get uh agronomy like that, and people are

801
00:47:05,280 --> 00:47:08,160
Speaker 1: enamored with it. Yes, the people at home always have

802
00:47:08,239 --> 00:47:10,680
Speaker 1: got to wonder why why we can't do that? Well,

803
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:16,680
Speaker 1: it's not possible, you know. So when you when you

804
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,719
Speaker 1: grow up in certain circumstances, and Jeff and I have

805
00:47:21,000 --> 00:47:28,520
Speaker 1: known players that have come from let's say, unkempt golf courses,

806
00:47:29,000 --> 00:47:34,880
Speaker 1: they learned how to play, and they they're very adaptive. Uh,

807
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,720
Speaker 1: their experiences are different, but you you come to admire

808
00:47:38,760 --> 00:47:43,440
Speaker 1: those those guys and gals who have done that uh

809
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,359
Speaker 1: part of as part of your learning process. So, uh,

810
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: it can't be graceful all the time. It just can't be.

811
00:47:53,120 --> 00:47:57,560
Speaker 1: It's not not possible. Nature doesn't work that way. I

812
00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: like the idea of the Peter Thomas always the easter

813
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,440
Speaker 1: yellists like, don't rape bunkers, it's a hazard. I just

814
00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: don't hit it in there, you guys, don't. I don't

815
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 1: know what a tough bunker shot is. Um. I think

816
00:48:08,239 --> 00:48:11,839
Speaker 1: if we play, it's a symptom of seventy two whole

817
00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: stroke play becoming the only form of the game, don't

818
00:48:15,160 --> 00:48:16,839
Speaker 1: you think. I think if we played match play all

819
00:48:16,840 --> 00:48:21,719
Speaker 1: the time and Goldford gone the match play route like tennis, say, um,

820
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,440
Speaker 1: you could not rate because it would be fine because

821
00:48:24,440 --> 00:48:26,839
Speaker 1: it's just you against your opponent in that group and

822
00:48:28,440 --> 00:48:30,680
Speaker 1: the better player would generally win and you don't have

823
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 1: to protect the field. And um, but you play seven,

824
00:48:33,760 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: You've got a hundred and fifty six guys playing the

825
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: same course. It's currently and we're playing for so much money,

826
00:48:38,760 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 1: and it's so important. You really have to give everyone

827
00:48:42,719 --> 00:48:47,280
Speaker 1: the same playing field as much as you can, I think, um,

828
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 1: But I love the idea of the adventure. And when

829
00:48:49,719 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 1: you're a kid, it's funny. I remember, being the younger

830
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,120
Speaker 1: I was, I would grab it. I just wanted to

831
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 1: hit the hardest shot possible, Like I would go to

832
00:48:59,360 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: the bad line the bunker before. I wouldn't tee it up. Now,

833
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:03,200
Speaker 1: all I want to do is put it on a

834
00:49:03,239 --> 00:49:04,960
Speaker 1: good lie to make myself look good, you know, and

835
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:06,640
Speaker 1: hit a good shot. But when I was a kid,

836
00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 1: all I wanted to do was a hard shot, And

837
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:11,719
Speaker 1: that's the the adventure that sort of maybe has been

838
00:49:11,760 --> 00:49:13,839
Speaker 1: lost a little bit of golf because we're all too

839
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:18,719
Speaker 1: enamored with a perfect golf shot that we forgot that

840
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:20,440
Speaker 1: the whole point of this is just going out into

841
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:22,799
Speaker 1: the backyard and having an adventure, you know, creating your

842
00:49:22,840 --> 00:49:26,160
Speaker 1: own stuff. And I think not raking bunkers, that's part

843
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,880
Speaker 1: of that. So I think I'm on both sides of

844
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:32,319
Speaker 1: you can't really do it in practical terms in place.

845
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: If you don't rake bunkers, ever, then they don't work

846
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,120
Speaker 1: very well, you know, they you need to rank them

847
00:49:38,120 --> 00:49:41,600
Speaker 1: to keep them operating properly and being good bunkers. But

848
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:44,160
Speaker 1: I like the idea of bad lies in bunkers. I

849
00:49:44,239 --> 00:49:49,600
Speaker 1: just think it's not practically fair. Definitely reminds me of

850
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,680
Speaker 1: a story that I read, you know, when they furrowed

851
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:57,680
Speaker 1: the bookers at oak Mark, and that those those both

852
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: fearsome bunkers ever and and you know you just couldn't

853
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: hit the ball out of him. And I'll never forget that.

854
00:50:05,040 --> 00:50:08,240
Speaker 1: I was reading where Jimmy Demarritt was in a bunker

855
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:11,120
Speaker 1: on the thirteenth hole. It came kind of close to

856
00:50:11,160 --> 00:50:14,680
Speaker 1: the clubhouse and Omont. These sportswriters came out and they said, well,

857
00:50:14,719 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 1: what do you think about these bunkers, Jimmy, he said, Well,

858
00:50:17,800 --> 00:50:20,319
Speaker 1: if we'd had these rakes in the Second World War,

859
00:50:20,440 --> 00:50:23,800
Speaker 1: he said, Romil never would have made it past Casa Blanca.

860
00:50:29,560 --> 00:50:34,000
Speaker 1: So much it kind of gives you an interesting about

861
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:38,399
Speaker 1: Jimmy de Merritt. But not thinking charlat McDonald's book, he's

862
00:50:38,520 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: he wasn't above running horses through buckers. So I really

863
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,839
Speaker 1: meant for you to stay out of bunker somehow. So

864
00:50:50,040 --> 00:50:53,640
Speaker 1: those those are pretty wild, but that's that's people have

865
00:50:53,800 --> 00:50:57,279
Speaker 1: mentioned that, but you're right, and Jeff, I mean a

866
00:50:57,320 --> 00:51:01,160
Speaker 1: lot of tournaments that we have played for so many years,

867
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: you have perfect lives and bunkers, and these guys become

868
00:51:05,680 --> 00:51:10,759
Speaker 1: really adept at scoring because they have wonderful sand with

869
00:51:10,840 --> 00:51:15,279
Speaker 1: which to play. So yeah, it was different a long

870
00:51:15,360 --> 00:51:18,920
Speaker 1: time ago, a little more natural, let's say in yesteryear.

871
00:51:20,640 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 1: But remember Jack maybe seven years ago with the memorial

872
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 1: for the bunkers, and the players hated it. It was miserable.

873
00:51:32,120 --> 00:51:35,000
Speaker 1: It was impossible because he would do it. I mean,

874
00:51:35,040 --> 00:51:36,920
Speaker 1: the furrows are bad enough, but he would do it

875
00:51:37,040 --> 00:51:40,560
Speaker 1: sort of perpendicular to the line of play, not parallel,

876
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:45,080
Speaker 1: so you you just had zero chance, right, um, which

877
00:51:45,080 --> 00:51:46,920
Speaker 1: I don't like either, because if you don't want to,

878
00:51:47,200 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 1: it's like the bat, it's like the hack out. Rough.

879
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 1: Golf is more interesting when you've got hope when you

880
00:51:52,680 --> 00:51:54,440
Speaker 1: hit it into a bunker off the te and you're like, oh,

881
00:51:54,480 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: I hope, I hope I can get it on the grain.

882
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:58,799
Speaker 1: I hope I can get on the grain. There's a chance, right,

883
00:51:58,920 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: it's gonna be there's gonna be a bit on both sides.

884
00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: If it's guaranteed to be dead, it's a miserable experience.

885
00:52:04,520 --> 00:52:08,799
Speaker 1: It's just so, it's just frustrating and annoying. Um. But

886
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:10,480
Speaker 1: if you're walking out if you don't get a good lie,

887
00:52:10,600 --> 00:52:12,319
Speaker 1: or you don't get a good lie. But sometimes if

888
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,239
Speaker 1: if half the time you get well, I can hit

889
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:16,160
Speaker 1: this one. This is fun. You know, you've got that

890
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:19,000
Speaker 1: little moment of joy in around you know, I don't know,

891
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: there's somewhere in the middle of this, right, that's right.

892
00:52:21,719 --> 00:52:24,720
Speaker 1: I believe in Jeff two you had to provide hope

893
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: and optimism somehow. Then I'm sure you get this all

894
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,800
Speaker 1: the time. You know, people have their quirky little favorites.

895
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:32,879
Speaker 1: I'm sure all three of us would like to ask

896
00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,439
Speaker 1: you about some of our quirky little favorites. So I'll

897
00:52:35,480 --> 00:52:39,279
Speaker 1: get started here with uh, really near St. Andrew's. Have

898
00:52:39,320 --> 00:52:40,959
Speaker 1: you ever been there? And what do you think of it?

899
00:52:41,680 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: I have? I can understand why James Braid enjoyed his

900
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: golf there. I thought it was fun, a lot of

901
00:52:49,520 --> 00:52:51,760
Speaker 1: a lot of shorter holes, It was a lot of character,

902
00:52:52,160 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: but I thought very interesting piece of property. I didn't

903
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,879
Speaker 1: know it that well, but I knew that he he

904
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:04,239
Speaker 1: grew up air. Uh. But yeah, I have seen it,

905
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:06,480
Speaker 1: but I thought it was pretty interesting collection to hold,

906
00:53:07,040 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 1: at least the periscope of course, right, yeah, yeah, fantastic. Yeah. Uh.

907
00:53:13,320 --> 00:53:15,759
Speaker 1: Michael and I had a great match there this um

908
00:53:15,840 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 1: this last summer. We sneaked over during the open at

909
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: the old Course. I'm afraid he closed me out like

910
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:22,440
Speaker 1: on the seventeenth hold, but it was it was so

911
00:53:22,520 --> 00:53:25,400
Speaker 1: much fun like that, that, to me is the perfect

912
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of golf course. The Cruden Bay, the North Barracks.

913
00:53:29,000 --> 00:53:33,440
Speaker 1: It's just funky and weird and unforgettable. But it's kind

914
00:53:33,440 --> 00:53:36,719
Speaker 1: of like you were saying earlier, Jeff, about you know,

915
00:53:36,760 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: built trying to build wingfoot greens today. How do you

916
00:53:41,320 --> 00:53:45,319
Speaker 1: both bring some some whimsy and some some fun into

917
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:47,680
Speaker 1: your designs but not get to the point where people

918
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,080
Speaker 1: are gonna throw up their hands and say, oh, it's

919
00:53:50,080 --> 00:53:52,520
Speaker 1: too gimmicky, like it's such a fine line. But how

920
00:53:52,520 --> 00:53:56,440
Speaker 1: do you do that with the modern golf courses, Jeff, I,

921
00:53:57,200 --> 00:53:59,719
Speaker 1: you know, my first trip to the British Aisles, I

922
00:54:00,640 --> 00:54:03,600
Speaker 1: just kind of came away with the notion that there

923
00:54:03,640 --> 00:54:06,480
Speaker 1: are some odd shapes on a lot of things that

924
00:54:06,600 --> 00:54:11,920
Speaker 1: you see, and they they just this, the planters just said, well,

925
00:54:13,520 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna make this part of this golf hole. I

926
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:18,520
Speaker 1: don't care what it looks like, you know, a giant

927
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 1: hill in front of you or some some something that

928
00:54:23,840 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: appears out of place on the first glance. They said,

929
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 1: this is this is the situation, and we're gonna make

930
00:54:31,520 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 1: a golf hole out of this. And that's why I'm

931
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: it's so unusual that you see so many different things,

932
00:54:39,880 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: you know. I was disappointed. I love Presleick the second

933
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: I saw it. But the Himalayas whole, uh, not the

934
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: ALP's hole, but the himalays Hold a long part three

935
00:54:56,680 --> 00:55:00,160
Speaker 1: blind over the hill and I thought, playing the hole,

936
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:01,920
Speaker 1: it went over across the hill and it was a

937
00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:05,960
Speaker 1: dead flat green, kind of a nothing green. I thought, well, god,

938
00:55:06,600 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: maybe it should have been a punch bowl or something.

939
00:55:08,719 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 1: But there was nothing to aid the golfer. You just

940
00:55:11,880 --> 00:55:15,200
Speaker 1: you drive it over this hill. That was just that's

941
00:55:15,239 --> 00:55:20,160
Speaker 1: the whole. Uh. You saw so many different things on

942
00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 1: that course. I think the stage in your memory, you

943
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:28,719
Speaker 1: never you never forget the ousehold, uh, but you you

944
00:55:28,760 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 1: never see something like the pal burn on number three.

945
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: You say, well, it's how that's placed. But that's that's

946
00:55:35,160 --> 00:55:37,839
Speaker 1: where they made a whole out of it. So it's

947
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: very interesting. Uh, they didn't force it, they used odd

948
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:47,799
Speaker 1: situations to their advantage. It gives it gives a personality

949
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,840
Speaker 1: to a golf hol Yeah, I agree. I I agree.

950
00:55:50,880 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: It's it's a shame golf has become so formulaic. Back then,

951
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: they just they had to start in town and finishing

952
00:55:57,480 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: town and they had to go that way and come back,

953
00:55:59,200 --> 00:56:02,960
Speaker 1: and they just used what they had, little stone walls

954
00:56:03,040 --> 00:56:08,839
Speaker 1: and the going over hills. I mean that path. It's incredible, right,

955
00:56:08,880 --> 00:56:11,600
Speaker 1: North Berry is just amazing, and it's so because every whole,

956
00:56:12,560 --> 00:56:15,520
Speaker 1: especially the first time you've ever been there, when you

957
00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:17,279
Speaker 1: go over the stone wall is it on about the

958
00:56:17,320 --> 00:56:20,040
Speaker 1: third I think? And then you're like, well there's a wall,

959
00:56:20,200 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 1: what like do I hit a shore of the wall

960
00:56:22,320 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: past the wall and maybe you walk through the middle

961
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:26,040
Speaker 1: of it and there's people having a picnic on the

962
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: side of the fairway, and you're just excited for the

963
00:56:28,440 --> 00:56:31,200
Speaker 1: next cool thing that you're going to see really quickly

964
00:56:32,360 --> 00:56:36,840
Speaker 1: because it's variety. It's not eighteen of the same sort

965
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,160
Speaker 1: of thing. It's it's like, what am I going to

966
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 1: find next? And I think there's something really cool about

967
00:56:41,280 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: that you can't do it now because people would yell

968
00:56:43,040 --> 00:56:45,360
Speaker 1: at you because you can't how to be rape the

969
00:56:45,360 --> 00:56:47,879
Speaker 1: course for the wall across and like the slope rating

970
00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:50,280
Speaker 1: is all wrong, and like it's just there's too much formula.

971
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:54,359
Speaker 1: It's it's nice that they still exist and we can

972
00:56:54,360 --> 00:56:56,040
Speaker 1: get to go play them because we can sort of,

973
00:56:56,920 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. They set the game off in such

974
00:56:58,480 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 1: a great direction. It's probably why the game is such

975
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:01,920
Speaker 1: a good game, because it got set off in such

976
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 1: a good direction to begin with. You know, but it's

977
00:57:05,040 --> 00:57:08,160
Speaker 1: very hard to do to replicate. You can't replicate it

978
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 1: because you can't replicate nature. You know, that's thousands of

979
00:57:11,040 --> 00:57:15,600
Speaker 1: years of farming and townspeople keeping the wrong people out

980
00:57:15,600 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 1: building a wall across the third fairway, and then they

981
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 1: just thought all the golf course has to go that way,

982
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:21,600
Speaker 1: so they just went that way. You know, we can't

983
00:57:21,640 --> 00:57:24,920
Speaker 1: move the wall that's been there for a thousand years. Um,

984
00:57:25,240 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 1: it's that stuff is fantastic. Some of the greens are amazing,

985
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:32,600
Speaker 1: like beer ITTs and um. Stuff is. People keep trying

986
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:35,880
Speaker 1: to replicate it, but the original is just it's absurd,

987
00:57:36,080 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 1: but it's so good. It's so fun. Um. I don't

988
00:57:41,000 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: even know how you would build it and actually make

989
00:57:42,840 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 1: it work. But um, yeah, it's a fantastic press Wick

990
00:57:46,280 --> 00:57:48,560
Speaker 1: to the best part about that Part three, the blind

991
00:57:48,600 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 1: path three over the thing. There's probably there's hundreds and

992
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 1: hundreds of people in the world who think they've had

993
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 1: a hole in one there. They haven't because the the

994
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,160
Speaker 1: caddies and people they're all quite often see a bill

995
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:01,760
Speaker 1: come down on the grain and they'll put the bull

996
00:58:01,760 --> 00:58:03,320
Speaker 1: in the hall and they'll go play the next holl

997
00:58:03,720 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: you know, come around the corner and go, oh the

998
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: poles in the hall. Um incredible, fantastic. But that's hoving nice?

999
00:58:12,040 --> 00:58:17,560
Speaker 1: Is that? That's uh yeah, press Way Scotland is just brilliant. Yeah, Jeff,

1000
00:58:17,600 --> 00:58:19,400
Speaker 1: have you had a chance to play, Friar said, ever,

1001
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: I haven't been to fries Head yet. No, that's that's

1002
00:58:22,480 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 1: up with. Have you been there on Sandhills and my Yeah, yeah,

1003
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 1: I love it. It's got a blind part three. It's

1004
00:58:30,640 --> 00:58:35,160
Speaker 1: got no yardage markers. You know, it took some nerve

1005
00:58:35,240 --> 00:58:37,680
Speaker 1: to do it, but it shows what you can do

1006
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:40,120
Speaker 1: if you're willing to get away from the group. Think

1007
00:58:40,160 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 1: of this is the way it has to be. What

1008
00:58:41,840 --> 00:58:44,080
Speaker 1: wouldn't that be about right then? Yeah, that's right. It's

1009
00:58:44,280 --> 00:58:49,680
Speaker 1: h Kennedy. Bax is very persuasive and he has strong opinions.

1010
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,200
Speaker 1: But he's done a great job. It was a great

1011
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,600
Speaker 1: piece of property to work with. But yeah, there's some

1012
00:58:55,680 --> 00:59:01,400
Speaker 1: unusual shapes there that we left alone and didn't try

1013
00:59:01,440 --> 00:59:08,560
Speaker 1: to transfigure it. In a lot of cases, can you

1014
00:59:08,560 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 1: you let the land speak for itself and you try

1015
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:16,640
Speaker 1: to bring out its attributes and let the personality stand

1016
00:59:17,680 --> 00:59:25,000
Speaker 1: um and try not to you try to try to

1017
00:59:25,040 --> 00:59:31,880
Speaker 1: avoid sameness, a redundancy. Um. You want to give a

1018
00:59:31,880 --> 00:59:36,280
Speaker 1: little of this, a little of that. Uh. Things, you know,

1019
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:38,920
Speaker 1: Jeff and I'm played enough of golf around the world

1020
00:59:38,960 --> 00:59:44,600
Speaker 1: that you remember so many different things, and you question yourself, well,

1021
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: why does that work? Why did why did that? Why

1022
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: do people enjoy that? You know, you question yourself wherever

1023
00:59:51,480 --> 00:59:57,280
Speaker 1: you're building. Uh, if you have to operate with a

1024
00:59:57,280 --> 01:00:01,160
Speaker 1: little restraint and saying why this is what this land

1025
01:00:01,240 --> 01:00:05,240
Speaker 1: gives us, let's stick with that and make it part

1026
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: of the same that you're trying to do. I have to.

1027
01:00:10,360 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 1: I have to share this story for for Jeff and

1028
01:00:12,160 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 1: Michael and those were listening. I was lucky to play

1029
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 1: golf with Mike Kaiser, and we wound up talking about

1030
01:00:18,000 --> 01:00:22,360
Speaker 1: Ben uh and his design partner, Bill Core, and Kaiser

1031
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:23,840
Speaker 1: was telling he was so excited to go out in

1032
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 1: the field with them, you know, kind of early in

1033
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 1: in um the collaboration. He was just expecting to be

1034
01:00:28,960 --> 01:00:32,720
Speaker 1: dazzled by this really high level conversations about the design

1035
01:00:32,760 --> 01:00:35,880
Speaker 1: features and all these allusions to the great architects and

1036
01:00:35,920 --> 01:00:39,439
Speaker 1: the great holes, he said, And he said, Bill and

1037
01:00:39,600 --> 01:00:42,200
Speaker 1: Ben they kind of stand there and they stroked their

1038
01:00:42,280 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 1: chin and what says you think, Yeah, yeah, I like that. Okay, yeah, okay.

1039
01:00:47,800 --> 01:00:49,280
Speaker 1: They go on to the next hole, and it was

1040
01:00:49,320 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 1: like the whole thing. They're like communicating without words, and Kaiser,

1041
01:00:53,520 --> 01:00:55,520
Speaker 1: they was so boring. I quit going out there with

1042
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:58,480
Speaker 1: them because they're on. They can communicate and they can

1043
01:00:58,520 --> 01:01:01,040
Speaker 1: collaborate in a way that the other two humans can

1044
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: and it's so subtle, and you know that subtlety informs

1045
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:07,880
Speaker 1: those designs. But anyway, that imagine you looking at at

1046
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,440
Speaker 1: those those great sand dunes at Fryar said, I'm just

1047
01:01:10,520 --> 01:01:13,080
Speaker 1: picturing you and you and Bill just standing there kind

1048
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,760
Speaker 1: of weaking and nodding and moving on to the next one.

1049
01:01:16,200 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: There's a lot to look at there. It was unbelievable

1050
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,080
Speaker 1: when we first saw and there's a lot to look at.

1051
01:01:21,240 --> 01:01:24,440
Speaker 1: We went wow. I knew it was gonna be one

1052
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:30,200
Speaker 1: of our very best opportunities. Um, you know I must

1053
01:01:30,240 --> 01:01:37,240
Speaker 1: I'm so lucky in my life that h thirty seven

1054
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:41,760
Speaker 1: years ago formed a partnership with Bill Corp. Thirty seven

1055
01:01:41,840 --> 01:01:49,080
Speaker 1: years ago I married Julie. I made two really good decisions. Uh.

1056
01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 1: But Bill is remarkable, the most patient man I've ever met.

1057
01:01:56,440 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 1: And he can assess a property as good as anyone.

1058
01:02:02,920 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 1: He can look at it very quickly and understand what

1059
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:10,480
Speaker 1: its properties might be. Uh. It's really good at that.

1060
01:02:10,920 --> 01:02:14,800
Speaker 1: And he's an excellent router. In other words, he discovered

1061
01:02:15,120 --> 01:02:18,400
Speaker 1: the directions of the holes and how they fit together.

1062
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:23,320
Speaker 1: He's really really good at that. So I've been very

1063
01:02:23,360 --> 01:02:30,440
Speaker 1: fortunate uh in that regard. Well, this is another I

1064
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:35,600
Speaker 1: just feel compelled to add this bit. So you know, Ben,

1065
01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:38,720
Speaker 1: you're you're a master's champion. You're looking for looking for

1066
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 1: design partner. Clearly you're gonna be the selling point to

1067
01:02:42,280 --> 01:02:44,160
Speaker 1: a lot of people. But when it comes time to

1068
01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:47,360
Speaker 1: name the company, Ben's let's just name it Court cranch

1069
01:02:47,600 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 1: like put the other guy's name first, which to me,

1070
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:52,200
Speaker 1: he says a lot about about who you are and

1071
01:02:52,240 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 1: why that collaboration has been so fruitful because clearly are

1072
01:02:56,200 --> 01:02:59,680
Speaker 1: equals out in the field, and and you defer to

1073
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,000
Speaker 1: to him as much as he does to you, and

1074
01:03:01,040 --> 01:03:04,200
Speaker 1: that that's I think what a collaboration is. Well, he's

1075
01:03:04,280 --> 01:03:06,760
Speaker 1: he's the ideal partner. I'm just as lucky as I

1076
01:03:06,800 --> 01:03:10,840
Speaker 1: could be. He's He's provided me with a lot of

1077
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: enjoyment uh and a lot of learning. Um. And uh

1078
01:03:17,720 --> 01:03:20,040
Speaker 1: if I could be as patient as he was, I'd

1079
01:03:20,040 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 1: be a better man. Uh. He's Uh, it's meant quite

1080
01:03:26,440 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 1: a lot in my life. We've enjoined uh prospecting about

1081
01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 1: the uh possibilities that we've been given, and we've we're

1082
01:03:41,560 --> 01:03:43,480
Speaker 1: trying to bring out the best in the piece of

1083
01:03:43,560 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: land that we're working with. That's that's all you try

1084
01:03:46,320 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 1: to do. Uh. Uh it's process of learning. Uh. You

1085
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 1: learn every day and yeah, and there's no question. You know,

1086
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,280
Speaker 1: you look back and say, well, maybe we should have

1087
01:04:05,360 --> 01:04:08,480
Speaker 1: done this back there. And you always you're gonna question

1088
01:04:08,520 --> 01:04:13,280
Speaker 1: yourself wherever you go, and you you say to yourself

1089
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, you try so hard. Sometimes things turn

1090
01:04:16,920 --> 01:04:23,160
Speaker 1: out better than you ever thought. Uh while you're doing it,

1091
01:04:23,280 --> 01:04:26,320
Speaker 1: you know, maybe a subtle move across a green, or

1092
01:04:28,040 --> 01:04:30,600
Speaker 1: you know the size of a green or size of

1093
01:04:30,600 --> 01:04:33,720
Speaker 1: a bunker or something. You always you always think about

1094
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: proportion and balance and this and that. Sometimes it doesn't

1095
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 1: come off quite like you want. But sometimes sometimes the

1096
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:46,040
Speaker 1: mistakes happen, you know, in the in the plus column.

1097
01:04:46,200 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 1: So it's fascinating that way to to the very point

1098
01:04:50,440 --> 01:04:53,440
Speaker 1: you just made. Right before um we all came on,

1099
01:04:53,880 --> 01:04:57,280
Speaker 1: Ben was talking about how you needed Elliott's help. Elliotts

1100
01:04:57,280 --> 01:05:00,160
Speaker 1: an assistant pro I think at at at Austin where

1101
01:05:00,200 --> 01:05:02,720
Speaker 1: Ben is today, or or Julius helped again on a

1102
01:05:02,760 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: on a computer. He doesn't have a computer, he doesn't

1103
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: have a cell phone. And uh, you know, of course

1104
01:05:08,520 --> 01:05:09,840
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a joke. But I mean

1105
01:05:09,840 --> 01:05:11,920
Speaker 1: it's not a joke because because it's true, but in

1106
01:05:11,960 --> 01:05:14,640
Speaker 1: this day and age, it kind of sounds like one.

1107
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 1: But really I think it's the essence of Ben as

1108
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 1: a person and as a as an architect um and

1109
01:05:22,400 --> 01:05:25,720
Speaker 1: I think to really be an an artist on the

1110
01:05:25,720 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 1: golf course or in golf course architecture, and I think

1111
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:32,960
Speaker 1: Jeff is is similarly built. I know this is a cliche,

1112
01:05:33,040 --> 01:05:35,800
Speaker 1: even the phrase, but you really have to be in

1113
01:05:35,840 --> 01:05:39,040
Speaker 1: that moment, and in our modern lives that is so

1114
01:05:39,160 --> 01:05:41,760
Speaker 1: much harder to do than it's ever been before, because

1115
01:05:41,800 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 1: we're bombarded with these messages all the time. And uh,

1116
01:05:46,720 --> 01:05:48,320
Speaker 1: you know, if I think about a hero of mine,

1117
01:05:48,360 --> 01:05:51,439
Speaker 1: like like Herb Winn writing about Ben Crenshaw, I could

1118
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 1: imagine Herb and Ben just talking and Ben trying excuse me,

1119
01:05:55,960 --> 01:06:00,280
Speaker 1: Herb trying to absorb Ben's life and then explaining it

1120
01:06:01,080 --> 01:06:05,720
Speaker 1: and show it to readers, and um, it's just a

1121
01:06:05,880 --> 01:06:08,919
Speaker 1: treat for us, I think, Allen, I'm sure I'm speaking

1122
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:11,360
Speaker 1: for you, and I imagine something for Jeff two, just

1123
01:06:11,400 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 1: to be able to hear someone who's so thoughtful about

1124
01:06:14,960 --> 01:06:18,320
Speaker 1: the game. This year, at at the Memorial Tournament, Ben

1125
01:06:18,360 --> 01:06:22,000
Speaker 1: was honored by Big Jack as the uh I'm not

1126
01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,880
Speaker 1: sure the exact term, but the Memorial Honoree of the Year.

1127
01:06:26,000 --> 01:06:28,400
Speaker 1: And Ben didn't have notes. He just talked about the

1128
01:06:28,440 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: game without notes because it's so deep within him. He

1129
01:06:31,680 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 1: doesn't need any notes, and he doesn't need any promising,

1130
01:06:34,720 --> 01:06:37,480
Speaker 1: doesn't need any anything. He doesn't need to look up anything,

1131
01:06:37,520 --> 01:06:41,320
Speaker 1: it's in him. Uh and um, you know that this

1132
01:06:41,400 --> 01:06:45,400
Speaker 1: conversation could go on probably until tomorrow and would never

1133
01:06:45,480 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 1: get tired. We haven't even had Jeff had a chance

1134
01:06:49,080 --> 01:06:52,480
Speaker 1: that asked Ben about fidly little Eelie type courses in

1135
01:06:52,520 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 1: Australia that he knows that Ben probably knows two. But anyway,

1136
01:06:56,640 --> 01:07:01,640
Speaker 1: I just thought I might share. I just want to ask, uh,

1137
01:07:02,520 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 1: how do I hold more parts? Honestly? When when you

1138
01:07:09,680 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 1: clearly well one of the best putterers we've ever seen, Um,

1139
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 1: when but you know obviously had some bad times. How

1140
01:07:16,280 --> 01:07:19,280
Speaker 1: did you what went wrong when you weren't making putts?

1141
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:21,560
Speaker 1: And how did you fix it? Did you? I mean,

1142
01:07:21,600 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: because all we see now is mirrors and lines and

1143
01:07:23,840 --> 01:07:27,760
Speaker 1: circles around the hole and stuff. And I'm pretty sure

1144
01:07:27,800 --> 01:07:31,520
Speaker 1: that that wasn't you when you when yours wasn't going well?

1145
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:35,959
Speaker 1: Um on the putting grain, what did you do? Yeah?

1146
01:07:37,680 --> 01:07:41,880
Speaker 1: I know this that when I putted my best, I

1147
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: was thinking of absolutely nothing, absolutely nothing, But I focused

1148
01:07:48,920 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 1: in on how hard I was going to hit it

1149
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,240
Speaker 1: and where the where the line was most often times,

1150
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:57,440
Speaker 1: how hard I was going to hit it. So I

1151
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:00,480
Speaker 1: was trying to rely on imagination and where I just

1152
01:08:00,600 --> 01:08:04,480
Speaker 1: pictured the ball, just I made it, the vivid picture

1153
01:08:04,640 --> 01:08:07,040
Speaker 1: of how that was going to roll. And the times

1154
01:08:07,080 --> 01:08:12,120
Speaker 1: I got in trouble every time a mechanical thought crept

1155
01:08:12,160 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 1: in there, I was worried about the path of my

1156
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: stroke or whether whether my grip pressure was just right.

1157
01:08:20,200 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 1: In other words, when I putted my best, I have

1158
01:08:22,640 --> 01:08:29,519
Speaker 1: blank mine. And that might sound really strange, but I

1159
01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: always remember a line that Bobby Jones wrote, and uh

1160
01:08:33,320 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: Bobby Jones on Golf, which I still think the most

1161
01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:41,920
Speaker 1: brilliant book about instruction. But he wrote he said, if

1162
01:08:41,960 --> 01:08:52,960
Speaker 1: anyone uh reduces putting to mechanical or uh precise thoughts

1163
01:08:53,240 --> 01:08:56,440
Speaker 1: in that way, he said, you are doomed for disappointment.

1164
01:08:59,600 --> 01:09:02,720
Speaker 1: And he said the whole the ability to gauge a

1165
01:09:02,840 --> 01:09:10,880
Speaker 1: slow or the the speed of a pot, you're much better.

1166
01:09:11,160 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 1: But I thought, well, God, if it was good enough

1167
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:19,719
Speaker 1: for the most cerebral golfer that ever lived, worth worth

1168
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:25,200
Speaker 1: looking after. So it's it's weird. When I've made potts,

1169
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:29,439
Speaker 1: I just picture it and it comes off, and I

1170
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:31,960
Speaker 1: didn't have any sort of thought about length of back

1171
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:39,439
Speaker 1: swing or anything. It was very strange that way. I

1172
01:09:39,520 --> 01:09:43,880
Speaker 1: love that. I mean Okay, work on that, Ben Well

1173
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:47,400
Speaker 1: and also Ben, I mean I remember talking um to

1174
01:09:47,520 --> 01:09:49,840
Speaker 1: Luke Donald. He was also obviously a great putter, and

1175
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,519
Speaker 1: he was talking about your stroke and he said, you know,

1176
01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:54,559
Speaker 1: I'm not sure you would teach people to put like

1177
01:09:54,640 --> 01:09:57,599
Speaker 1: Ben Crenshaw because it wasn't the same stroke every time.

1178
01:09:57,640 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 1: Sometimes looked like on the fast down hill, he's gonna

1179
01:10:00,080 --> 01:10:02,880
Speaker 1: and slice a little bit, and and sometimes he would

1180
01:10:02,880 --> 01:10:05,320
Speaker 1: take a long back swing and sometimes it was short

1181
01:10:05,400 --> 01:10:08,880
Speaker 1: like he was not that he did not have the

1182
01:10:08,920 --> 01:10:11,720
Speaker 1: same stroke repeate over and over. It was very situational.

1183
01:10:12,240 --> 01:10:13,760
Speaker 1: And is that part of what you're saying? It just

1184
01:10:13,880 --> 01:10:17,759
Speaker 1: just off the toad to dead and just yeah, Jeff,

1185
01:10:17,800 --> 01:10:20,560
Speaker 1: and I'll try anything. And Mike Putt, you know that.

1186
01:10:22,880 --> 01:10:26,240
Speaker 1: And it's a it's a let's face it, you know.

1187
01:10:26,320 --> 01:10:29,720
Speaker 1: I forgot who said into the clothes. The closer you

1188
01:10:29,760 --> 01:10:34,000
Speaker 1: get to the whole, the more difficult the game becomes.

1189
01:10:34,120 --> 01:10:38,200
Speaker 1: When when you think of it's a strange putting is

1190
01:10:38,240 --> 01:10:42,080
Speaker 1: completely That's why Mr Hogan really didn't regard part of

1191
01:10:42,080 --> 01:10:44,479
Speaker 1: the game. He loved hitting balls and he could do it,

1192
01:10:44,960 --> 01:10:48,760
Speaker 1: but he just he didn't disregard putting. But he he

1193
01:10:50,160 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 1: thought it was a part of the game that was

1194
01:10:52,080 --> 01:10:57,080
Speaker 1: that should have left less attention. Let's say, then, isn't

1195
01:10:57,080 --> 01:10:58,760
Speaker 1: there sort of a shift as you get closer to

1196
01:10:58,800 --> 01:11:01,280
Speaker 1: the whole where when you're far from the hall, there's

1197
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:03,200
Speaker 1: a lot of good things that can happen, and then

1198
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 1: when you get closer to the whole, there's only bad

1199
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:09,720
Speaker 1: things that can happen. Yeah, more more mental it becomes.

1200
01:11:09,800 --> 01:11:13,479
Speaker 1: And you know, the you try real hard to say

1201
01:11:13,479 --> 01:11:16,559
Speaker 1: to yourself, well, look it's you gotta hit the ball

1202
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:19,920
Speaker 1: solid and you've got to stay down and you've picked

1203
01:11:19,920 --> 01:11:21,920
Speaker 1: the right line at the right pace. That's all you

1204
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:26,120
Speaker 1: can do. That's all you can do. Michael's remember the

1205
01:11:26,120 --> 01:11:29,519
Speaker 1: first time you ever saw Ben Crunchhaw on a golf course? Well,

1206
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:33,679
Speaker 1: I do for sure, and uh, I mean definitely on TV.

1207
01:11:33,800 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 1: That's certainly that that US Open stands out. And then

1208
01:11:38,640 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 1: Ben mentioned eighty five earlier about a cat in quite

1209
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: a few p J tournaments and five remember the cat

1210
01:11:45,920 --> 01:11:49,679
Speaker 1: He's saying, you know when when Ben puts, well, it's like, well,

1211
01:11:49,720 --> 01:11:52,360
Speaker 1: how does this guy not win every week? And the

1212
01:11:52,400 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 1: answer was, well he can't play, of course, Well, but

1213
01:11:55,360 --> 01:11:57,880
Speaker 1: he doesn't like That's what that was. The Catty Art

1214
01:11:57,960 --> 01:12:02,400
Speaker 1: joke back there. No, I'll tell you one of the

1215
01:12:02,439 --> 01:12:05,680
Speaker 1: most comforting you know, I'm not kiddy. I felt like

1216
01:12:05,720 --> 01:12:08,000
Speaker 1: I've always had the best caddy at Augusta for all

1217
01:12:08,040 --> 01:12:11,800
Speaker 1: my years in Carl Jackson, I mean, he was We

1218
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:16,920
Speaker 1: worked together so well. But we saw saw things in

1219
01:12:17,040 --> 01:12:20,400
Speaker 1: unison something. We'd look at the pot and he'd say,

1220
01:12:20,400 --> 01:12:22,080
Speaker 1: what are you like and I said, you know, right

1221
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,599
Speaker 1: out here and he would look at me and he'd say,

1222
01:12:24,960 --> 01:12:29,080
Speaker 1: we're together, And I said, man, I'm on the right track.

1223
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,960
Speaker 1: So he gave me a lot of confidence before I

1224
01:12:32,040 --> 01:12:36,320
Speaker 1: hit the ball. But we had so much fun, uh,

1225
01:12:37,080 --> 01:12:41,280
Speaker 1: working out putts and watching other people put when we

1226
01:12:41,280 --> 01:12:45,280
Speaker 1: were in playing, we'd we'd read their potts. It's really

1227
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:50,280
Speaker 1: but man, I mean that guy helped me so much.

1228
01:12:50,320 --> 01:12:54,479
Speaker 1: It was unbelievable, so much. Okay, he grew up, he

1229
01:12:54,520 --> 01:12:57,840
Speaker 1: grew up caddying there, and he had his first heat

1230
01:12:57,880 --> 01:13:01,000
Speaker 1: caddying in the tournament when he was four years old,

1231
01:13:02,200 --> 01:13:07,800
Speaker 1: which is unbelievable. And it was Billy Burke, the guy

1232
01:13:07,840 --> 01:13:12,800
Speaker 1: who won the one US Open. Uh, and he played

1233
01:13:12,800 --> 01:13:14,920
Speaker 1: said he played in a startch white shirt and a

1234
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:19,880
Speaker 1: tie every day. But that was his first job at Augusta.

1235
01:13:21,960 --> 01:13:25,080
Speaker 1: That's amazing. Well, I mean it's one of those themes

1236
01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:27,680
Speaker 1: that runs through your golfing life been is these uh,

1237
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,160
Speaker 1: these friendships you've had, whether it's Carl Jackson, or it's

1238
01:13:31,200 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 1: Billy Core or it's Buyer Nelson. And I think now

1239
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:37,880
Speaker 1: a lot of people know you're you're the host of

1240
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:42,200
Speaker 1: the Tuesday night Champions dinner at Augusta National. And I mean,

1241
01:13:42,240 --> 01:13:43,719
Speaker 1: you tell me one time, you get more nervous about

1242
01:13:43,720 --> 01:13:45,559
Speaker 1: that than any golf shop you have to hit. And

1243
01:13:45,640 --> 01:13:47,759
Speaker 1: but you never know what the hell I'm in the saite.

1244
01:13:48,640 --> 01:13:51,240
Speaker 1: You're standing there in front of all these guys you admire,

1245
01:13:52,600 --> 01:13:54,760
Speaker 1: and you know it's a dinner that we've all, you've

1246
01:13:54,800 --> 01:13:58,240
Speaker 1: all won, and it's just I just I started. I

1247
01:13:58,320 --> 01:14:00,920
Speaker 1: try to just started off and let him have fun.

1248
01:14:01,120 --> 01:14:04,120
Speaker 1: That's the best way. We're all we're all lucky to

1249
01:14:04,120 --> 01:14:07,479
Speaker 1: be there, really lucky to be there. Then. I know

1250
01:14:07,640 --> 01:14:11,240
Speaker 1: this would be hard to articulate, um, but it's such

1251
01:14:11,280 --> 01:14:14,280
Speaker 1: a one of the great moving moments in the history

1252
01:14:14,320 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: of golf, certainly for for you know of our generation.

1253
01:14:18,160 --> 01:14:20,519
Speaker 1: Was Carl comforting you when you when you won that

1254
01:14:20,600 --> 01:14:25,519
Speaker 1: Master's shortly after bearing baring Harvey. Can is there any

1255
01:14:25,520 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 1: way you can express the humanity he showed to you,

1256
01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:32,200
Speaker 1: Carl showed to you at that moment, because it's such

1257
01:14:32,560 --> 01:14:36,800
Speaker 1: it's such a rich moment of you know, I don't

1258
01:14:36,800 --> 01:14:39,000
Speaker 1: even know how to describe it, but maybe you can

1259
01:14:39,080 --> 01:14:46,760
Speaker 1: take over for me. We were together so long, um

1260
01:14:46,800 --> 01:14:49,320
Speaker 1: and and that had happened on that occasion is still

1261
01:14:51,640 --> 01:14:54,639
Speaker 1: I still daydream about it these these days. I can't

1262
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:56,960
Speaker 1: it's hard to believe that it happened in the way

1263
01:14:57,000 --> 01:15:02,680
Speaker 1: that it did. But I, you know, after being exhausted

1264
01:15:02,720 --> 01:15:06,639
Speaker 1: and I got through it, I felt these big arms

1265
01:15:06,960 --> 01:15:11,679
Speaker 1: around me and uh, he said, buddy, you are you okay?

1266
01:15:11,720 --> 01:15:16,920
Speaker 1: And I went no, I was just overcome. But it

1267
01:15:17,080 --> 01:15:21,000
Speaker 1: was a friend helping me at that at that moment

1268
01:15:21,240 --> 01:15:25,720
Speaker 1: I needed help, I really did. But it was part

1269
01:15:25,760 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 1: and parcel of the things that we we learned to

1270
01:15:29,880 --> 01:15:32,760
Speaker 1: play that course together. We had some great times and

1271
01:15:32,800 --> 01:15:37,680
Speaker 1: we had some near misses, but I felt like I

1272
01:15:37,720 --> 01:15:42,400
Speaker 1: had a guy who really helped me considerably. He made

1273
01:15:42,400 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: me learn the golf course. But it was at that

1274
01:15:48,320 --> 01:15:51,720
Speaker 1: moment it was it was a friend to a friend. Uh.

1275
01:15:51,760 --> 01:15:59,880
Speaker 1: He'll always be my friend and very very kind man. Well,

1276
01:16:00,000 --> 01:16:02,360
Speaker 1: people ask me sometimes, what's you know, what's your favorite

1277
01:16:02,360 --> 01:16:05,599
Speaker 1: story you've ever done? And I often mentioned, you know,

1278
01:16:05,680 --> 01:16:09,240
Speaker 1: for the anniversary of that victory, I went to Austin

1279
01:16:09,439 --> 01:16:12,400
Speaker 1: and Ben and Julie very gracefully welcome into their home

1280
01:16:12,840 --> 01:16:15,040
Speaker 1: and we cued up the videotape of the final round

1281
01:16:15,080 --> 01:16:18,679
Speaker 1: and we've watched it together and uh, you know, Julie's crying,

1282
01:16:18,800 --> 01:16:22,720
Speaker 1: Ben's crying. I'm crying, and uh, the how you found that?

1283
01:16:22,760 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 1: You guys haven't watched it in a long time, And

1284
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:27,040
Speaker 1: it's just it's like I thinking in the story you

1285
01:16:27,200 --> 01:16:29,280
Speaker 1: called it like a fairy tale. Like it's just amazing

1286
01:16:29,320 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 1: that it all played out the way it did. And

1287
01:16:30,960 --> 01:16:34,439
Speaker 1: that's the magic of sports and Augusta National. It just

1288
01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:38,599
Speaker 1: it's it's somehow these stories come together and they're they're

1289
01:16:38,600 --> 01:16:40,960
Speaker 1: so cinematic, but it actually happened. You actually did it,

1290
01:16:41,000 --> 01:16:45,240
Speaker 1: and it's one of the great moments ever in golf. Uh. Well,

1291
01:16:47,040 --> 01:16:51,519
Speaker 1: it's uh. I've met luckier and most and I'm I'm

1292
01:16:51,680 --> 01:16:55,439
Speaker 1: very very much as softie and I've told many people

1293
01:16:55,479 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 1: and said, look, I cried supermarket openings. It was also

1294
01:17:03,240 --> 01:17:06,880
Speaker 1: when when when Ben won, there was an amazing three

1295
01:17:06,960 --> 01:17:10,439
Speaker 1: year period for the Masters with Ben's win and then

1296
01:17:10,479 --> 01:17:13,439
Speaker 1: Falders win and then Tigers win all three in a

1297
01:17:13,560 --> 01:17:16,840
Speaker 1: row there, and uh, you know for a whole generation.

1298
01:17:16,960 --> 01:17:19,799
Speaker 1: Jeff would have been part of that generation just coming

1299
01:17:19,840 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 1: of age and catching those. It would be like me

1300
01:17:22,439 --> 01:17:25,120
Speaker 1: catching that sent US Open or the seventy four US

1301
01:17:25,160 --> 01:17:30,080
Speaker 1: Open up at Wingfoot, just the magical period to fall

1302
01:17:30,120 --> 01:17:32,080
Speaker 1: in love with the game. I'll tell you what, I'm

1303
01:17:32,479 --> 01:17:36,160
Speaker 1: gonna tune in and I think it's next week to

1304
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:41,200
Speaker 1: watch father son. Can't waite to watch Charlie Tiger's son.

1305
01:17:41,360 --> 01:17:43,639
Speaker 1: And I'm you know, last year I was watching that

1306
01:17:45,040 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 1: not only he could play, but he had it's luck.

1307
01:17:50,479 --> 01:17:53,920
Speaker 1: He had a single minded purpose. The way that he

1308
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:56,559
Speaker 1: held those pots, you know, under pressure, it was like

1309
01:17:56,640 --> 01:18:00,040
Speaker 1: it was nothing. And I'm going, well, this this is

1310
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:03,040
Speaker 1: pretty good. He's got a pretty good teacher and his father,

1311
01:18:03,160 --> 01:18:05,599
Speaker 1: but he was just doing it and I'm going, wow,

1312
01:18:05,720 --> 01:18:09,280
Speaker 1: this is I can't wait to watch it. Uh. And

1313
01:18:09,360 --> 01:18:11,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people are gonna watch it,

1314
01:18:11,200 --> 01:18:18,599
Speaker 1: but uh it Uh. You know, you really to look

1315
01:18:18,640 --> 01:18:23,280
Speaker 1: back at Tiger's career and yeah, he's unbelievable, but the

1316
01:18:23,320 --> 01:18:28,000
Speaker 1: mental toughness that he displayed it for decades. You know,

1317
01:18:28,080 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 1: there was no uh more competitive person a winner, and

1318
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:40,240
Speaker 1: every time he had the lead, he won. H But

1319
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:42,920
Speaker 1: I think his mind. You know, there are very very

1320
01:18:42,960 --> 01:18:47,439
Speaker 1: few people who accomplished things in the game, and you

1321
01:18:47,560 --> 01:18:52,200
Speaker 1: think about their mental capacities, and you look at Bobby

1322
01:18:52,280 --> 01:18:56,559
Speaker 1: Jones and Jack Nicholas uh and all these great players.

1323
01:18:56,600 --> 01:19:00,200
Speaker 1: They have a they have a very competitive side, but

1324
01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:02,479
Speaker 1: they have a mental side that a lot of people

1325
01:19:02,520 --> 01:19:08,519
Speaker 1: don't approach. Ah, he had it, My god, tigers had it. Well.

1326
01:19:08,520 --> 01:19:10,720
Speaker 1: I mean you're you're, what sixty years older than than

1327
01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:13,679
Speaker 1: than Charlie Woods, but you're linked by that same quest

1328
01:19:13,760 --> 01:19:15,880
Speaker 1: just to make more puts than just the magic of

1329
01:19:15,880 --> 01:19:19,879
Speaker 1: the game. I mean, it transcends it all. So that's good.

1330
01:19:19,920 --> 01:19:27,280
Speaker 1: Swing dude is gonna grow hit that ball put Fascinated

1331
01:19:27,320 --> 01:19:31,080
Speaker 1: by that. Well, I've been You've been incredibly generous with

1332
01:19:31,120 --> 01:19:32,680
Speaker 1: your time. I feel like we should let you go

1333
01:19:32,720 --> 01:19:34,880
Speaker 1: because Michael's right, we could do this deep into the night.

1334
01:19:35,120 --> 01:19:37,960
Speaker 1: I don't think anyone would mind, except for our kids

1335
01:19:37,960 --> 01:19:40,840
Speaker 1: and wives and dogs were um waiting for us to

1336
01:19:40,920 --> 01:19:44,439
Speaker 1: end this podcast. But um, any Michael or Jeff in

1337
01:19:44,520 --> 01:19:47,200
Speaker 1: any last thoughts or questions for for Ben before we

1338
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 1: let them go. No, it's always good to chat Ben.

1339
01:19:50,240 --> 01:19:55,599
Speaker 1: Your you view golf in a y that I really

1340
01:19:56,240 --> 01:20:01,880
Speaker 1: enjoy Um. So yeah, been a pleasure. It's a bit

1341
01:20:01,920 --> 01:20:04,320
Speaker 1: of pleasure talking to you, Jeff. And I've always thought

1342
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:11,320
Speaker 1: that you. I've always enjoyed how you, uh, depict things

1343
01:20:11,400 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: about the game, and not only as a player, but

1344
01:20:15,960 --> 01:20:18,360
Speaker 1: how people look at the game and how they look

1345
01:20:18,360 --> 01:20:24,440
Speaker 1: at courses and you're you're doing it, you're building courses,

1346
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:29,439
Speaker 1: and I've always admired you. Like I said earlier, anybody

1347
01:20:29,560 --> 01:20:35,200
Speaker 1: you can handle wing foot is a tough customer. And uh,

1348
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:38,920
Speaker 1: it's been a pleasure, always enjoy watching you and listening

1349
01:20:38,960 --> 01:20:42,080
Speaker 1: to you. And you two guys, Alan and Michael. Great

1350
01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:44,960
Speaker 1: to talk to you. It's always a pleasure to talk

1351
01:20:45,000 --> 01:20:50,240
Speaker 1: to you both. And uh, y'all had great holidays. We're

1352
01:20:50,320 --> 01:20:54,200
Speaker 1: coming around to part of the year where families get together.

1353
01:20:54,360 --> 01:20:58,160
Speaker 1: We enjoyed, we're we're lucky to be alive. Pick you

1354
01:20:58,240 --> 01:21:02,120
Speaker 1: both very much. All right, Thank you, Ben, Thank you,

1355
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 1: Thanks Ben. Mm hmmmm h oh my god. It's a

1356
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:30,600
Speaker 1: dangerous group here. M