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Speaker 2: When you are chasing a dream, you're going to be
Speaker 2: happy about a third at the time. I have lost
Speaker 2: and failed more time than I've succeeded. We don't talk
Speaker 2: about that. I felt like it was the end of
Speaker 2: my company and my career, but it wasn't.
Speaker 3: It was just a failure.
Speaker 4: One of America's richest self made women.
Speaker 3: Fashion and business powerhouse, Emma Greed.
Speaker 2: I spent such a huge part of my life being
Speaker 2: so crippled by THEA for so long that held me back.
Speaker 3: It was rough.
Speaker 1: Before we jump into this episode, I'd like to invite
Speaker 1: you to join this community to hear more interviews that
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Speaker 1: I love your support. It's incredible to see all your
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Speaker 1: selling authoring the most the number one healthy wellness podcast
Speaker 1: and Purpose with Jay Shetty. Hey everyone, welcome back to
Speaker 1: On Purpose, the number one health podcast in the world.
Speaker 1: Thanks to each and every one of you that come
Speaker 1: back every week to become happier, healthier, and more healed.
Speaker 1: You know that my goal is to introduce you to
Speaker 1: incredible thinkers, thought leaders, people who are making an impact
Speaker 1: and a difference in the world, rule breakers, people who
Speaker 1: are changing the way we think, lead and live. And
Speaker 1: today's guest is someone I've wanted on for a long
Speaker 1: long time, so I'm very excited that I finally have
Speaker 1: her sitting opposite me. I'm talking about the one and
Speaker 1: only Emma Greed, CEO and co founder of Good American,
Speaker 1: the first fully inclusive fashion brand that celebrates all dimensions
Speaker 1: of female power. In October twenty sixteen, Emma good American,
Speaker 1: alongside Chloe Kardashian what started as the largest denim launch
Speaker 1: in history. Good American is now an iconic inclusive fashion
Speaker 1: line of denim, ready to wear, swim shoes, and active wear.
Speaker 1: Emmo is also a founding partner and Chief product officer
Speaker 1: of Skims as solutions oriented brand creating the next generation
Speaker 1: of underwear, loungewear, and shapewhear you already knew that, and
Speaker 1: co founder of Safely, an accessible, premium home care brand
Speaker 1: dedicated to creating high quality, plant based cleaning products. Emo
Speaker 1: is now recognized as one of America's richest self made
Speaker 1: women by Forbes and serves as chairwoman of the fifteen
Speaker 1: Percent Pledge and also as a board member of Baby
Speaker 1: the Baby. And for me, beyond all of this, I'm
Speaker 1: just happy to be sitting with a fellow brit in
Speaker 1: La and just so grateful, Emma, because I've been watching you,
Speaker 1: I've been following you. Your energy, whether it's a picture
Speaker 1: or a video, is so magnetic and so real, and
Speaker 1: now I meet you in person. I'm like, it's amazing,
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2: Honestly, I could not be more happy to be here.
Speaker 2: A definitely because you're a fellow Britt. But I have
Speaker 2: been listening and watching and reading you for so long.
Speaker 2: This is like the thing that I've been most excited
Speaker 2: about for the longest time. So thank you for having
Speaker 2: the very happy It's a big like tick for me.
Speaker 3: I'm like, yes, let's do it.
Speaker 1: Oh you're the sweetest and I want you to know literally,
Speaker 1: my whole team was so excited you were coming today.
Speaker 1: Everyone is such major fans.
Speaker 2: Didn't even imagine that. Even when you say it, I'm like, really,
Speaker 2: it's true.
Speaker 1: Oh no, I want to go back to I remember
Speaker 1: that you and Chloe were doing a live years ago. Yes,
Speaker 1: And I literally just came on because I saw you
Speaker 1: both live and I came on and I was just saying, hey, guys,
Speaker 1: you know, like just being friendly, and we were like
Speaker 1: because you both shifted the entire life. I just want
Speaker 1: everyone to understand this. They're on a live talking about
Speaker 1: their incredible brand is like crushing it and little o
Speaker 1: Me comes on, We're like, yay, we love it. And
Speaker 1: it was this thing like and I was like, how
Speaker 1: did I felt terrible? So I lugged off, No, no,
Speaker 1: where's he gone? It was so sweet and I was
Speaker 1: just like how conscious and kind and thoughtful and anyway,
Speaker 1: I want to dive straight into your incredible journey. That's
Speaker 1: why we're here today to understand you the human behind
Speaker 1: this incredible journey and incredible story. And I want to
Speaker 1: start off with what is your earliest childhood memory that
Speaker 1: you think is indicative and defines who you are today.
Speaker 2: That is such a brilliant question. This is what you
Speaker 2: do right. You asked the best questions. I'm so glad you.
Speaker 1: Why did you start American?
Speaker 2: You know, it's so interesting. I come from East London,
Speaker 2: and you know, East London is like, you know, it's
Speaker 2: like coming from like Long Beach, Inglewood or Brooklyn, do
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. It's like it's the street.
Speaker 2: It's the part of London that when you know, if
Speaker 2: you go back thirty years ago when I was a kid,
Speaker 2: is just not the place where you would happily hang out.
Speaker 2: I had a fantastic upbringing there, you know, and I
Speaker 2: think it's very defining. East London has been very defining
Speaker 2: of me my personality.
Speaker 3: You were really raised to, you know.
Speaker 2: In a community, to have huge respect for the people
Speaker 2: around you, huge trust actually for the people around you.
Speaker 2: But it was pretty devoid of any aspiration and certainly
Speaker 2: any glamour. And I was one of those kids that
Speaker 2: just kind of grew up like always kind of looking
Speaker 2: at what could be next and what was in my future.
Speaker 2: And I just fell into this like fashion magazine land,
Speaker 2: you know, It's like I would do my paper out,
Speaker 2: I'd get the money from that, I'd spend it on
Speaker 2: an issue of like Bogue or l or Mary Claire.
Speaker 2: And it was that great moment sort of late eighties
Speaker 2: early nineties in England where we had you know, so
Speaker 2: many incredible movements, you know, Brit Brit Art, but all
Speaker 2: of those supermodels, you know, it's like Naomi and Kate Moss.
Speaker 2: And I saw that as a means of escapism. I
Speaker 2: never thought about it as a potential for a job,
Speaker 2: but I was like, let me just lift out of
Speaker 2: where I am an aspire to something that was beautiful
Speaker 2: and aspirational, because I couldn't see that anywhere around me.
Speaker 2: And so when I think about my childhood, I think
Speaker 2: partially about this piece of like East London, where there's
Speaker 2: an honesty and an authenticity and a level of just
Speaker 2: like being the person that you say you are, like
Speaker 2: living by a certain set of values.
Speaker 3: And then this other part that was like get me
Speaker 3: out of there. Do you know what I mean? That's
Speaker 3: the honesty of it, really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And how do where do you think that comes from?
Speaker 1: I think some people are like, you know, we've become
Speaker 1: products of our environment, and so if some people are
Speaker 1: in a group of people or in an area that
Speaker 1: is unambitious or not striving, it's easy to fold into that. Yes,
Speaker 1: where did that come for you personally? Like? Was it
Speaker 1: someone in your life? Was it something you read? Was
Speaker 1: it the magazines? Like? Where did that belief come that
Speaker 1: there could be more? There may be more, there is
Speaker 1: another place to go to?
Speaker 2: You know, I think that it must have come from
Speaker 2: my mum in some ways, because I honestly I didn't
Speaker 2: know anyone that owned their own bas everywhere I come from,
Speaker 2: everyone worked a job and you work for somebody else,
Speaker 2: and jobs were seen as exactly that. There was no career,
Speaker 2: there was no vocation, there was no like purposeful doing
Speaker 2: of what you do. It's like you get up, you
Speaker 2: went to work, you probably found it miserable, and you
Speaker 2: try to get out of there as quickly as you could.
Speaker 2: And for me, I really thought that, you know, there
Speaker 2: has to be a better way to live. I was like,
Speaker 2: shouldn't there be some excitement and enjoyment. I don't know
Speaker 2: where I got it from. The sense of value and
Speaker 2: the sense of ambition has always been at me and
Speaker 2: people always say to me, you know, like how did
Speaker 2: you get to where you are? And I go, well,
Speaker 2: it's much more simple than people think, you know. It's
Speaker 2: like I've really value myself and I've really value my goals,
Speaker 2: and I don't think it's much more complicated than that.
Speaker 2: But I was taught that by my mum, who was
Speaker 2: very very much like, listen, Emma, You're not better than
Speaker 2: anybody else, but nor is anyone better than you. And
Speaker 2: so when people talk about imposter syndrome, like I look around,
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's just made up. Like everybody, we all
Speaker 2: feel exactly the same, like deep deep down, and that
Speaker 2: sense of me feeling like I could achieve was just
Speaker 2: built in. Like I've never felt a lack of confidence.
Speaker 2: I've never felt less than. I always felt like if
Speaker 2: I worked hard enough and I really like put everything
Speaker 2: into it, that I could achieve.
Speaker 3: I still feel like that today.
Speaker 2: I don't expect things to be easy, but I've never
Speaker 2: had a sense of I couldn't.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what a great way for your mom to set
Speaker 1: you up, Like, what an amazing recipe. But it's beautiful
Speaker 1: to hear that because I love that perspective of no
Speaker 1: one's better than you and you're not better than anyone,
Speaker 1: Like that's such a great equalizer.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, And the two things are really important, right because
Speaker 2: I grew up with such a respect for everybody else
Speaker 2: around me, regardless of like where they come from or
Speaker 2: you know, what they were doing. And I think that,
Speaker 2: you know, as a kid, I was surrounded by a
Speaker 2: lot of people that were doing what they had to
Speaker 2: do to get through the day. And I never looked
Speaker 2: down on anyone. I always feel, well, you know what,
Speaker 2: as long as you are doing something, you find an
Speaker 2: interest in something. And for me that came at a
Speaker 2: very early age in fashion, but it was much more
Speaker 2: a means of escapism than me sitting there and like
Speaker 2: really appreciating the clothing or the craft.
Speaker 3: It was like it was a means to dream.
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, I love that, and tell me about you
Speaker 1: touched on it there. But I want to talk about
Speaker 1: your first job. And I like doing this with people
Speaker 1: because what's really interesting to me is people forget, especially
Speaker 1: when someone's at the peaks of their careers and achieving
Speaker 1: incredible things. Like when people ask you the question of
Speaker 1: like how did you get to where you are, it
Speaker 1: almost takes away from the fact that there was a
Speaker 1: first job that was this see especially.
Speaker 2: Now right, because we have this idea through like social media,
Speaker 2: that everything happens overnight, and I think, you know, it's
Speaker 2: like I've been grafted in a way since I was
Speaker 2: twelve years old, and like boom, I get some success
Speaker 2: at forty and people think you're an overnight success. I
Speaker 2: have worked every job imaginable. I had a paper round
Speaker 2: when I was twelve. Until I was fifteen, I worked
Speaker 2: in a delicatessen. I worked in clothes shops. I served
Speaker 2: in restaurants. It's like I've done every job in fashion
Speaker 2: that you could do at the lowest possible level imaginable
Speaker 2: while not being paid.
Speaker 3: Right, It's like I've done all of it.
Speaker 2: But actually for me, you know, when you talk about
Speaker 2: people and your point of view on life, like I
Speaker 2: am a naturally positive of a naturally positive distribution disposition.
Speaker 2: I always am a person that thinks about the glass
Speaker 2: being half full. And so even when I worked in
Speaker 2: that deli and I was making a sandwich, I was
Speaker 2: going to make you their best turkey sandwich you've ever
Speaker 2: had in your life.
Speaker 3: And I would wait and.
Speaker 2: Look at you and be like, how good is that sandwich?
Speaker 2: Is that an amazing sandwich. I chose the best amount
Speaker 2: of turkey with the right amount of the pickle, and
Speaker 2: I'd make it look nice and I'd cut it beautifully
Speaker 2: like on the plate, and do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: So for me, I can take pride in anything, and
Speaker 2: I also take a huge amount of learnings from everything.
Speaker 3: So for me, it's like I used to.
Speaker 2: Think, well, one day like this will be useful to me,
Speaker 2: like one day learning how to make a perfect cappuccino
Speaker 2: or making a customer happy, or discussing how things work
Speaker 2: in a shop or a debt access and will be
Speaker 2: useful to me. And I actually think about all of
Speaker 2: those experiences as being very formative, and I enjoyed all
Speaker 2: of them.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like I've just I've really worked. And I think
Speaker 2: everybody talks so much about hard work, but they don't
Speaker 2: really talk about like unenjoyable work. I had a lot
Speaker 2: of unenjoyable jobs that I just had to get through,
Speaker 2: but I never ever let it put me off. I
Speaker 2: always saw them as a means to the end, you know.
Speaker 2: And so I think when we talk about that now,
Speaker 2: like what does hard work actually means? It means getting
Speaker 2: up and thinking about the end goal when you're nowhere
Speaker 2: even close to it, right, But you can see a pathway,
Speaker 2: And for me it was always about that. I could
Speaker 2: always see very clearly that I'm going to do that
Speaker 2: to get to that, to get to that, And I've
Speaker 2: been quite been quite planned, I feel in so many
Speaker 2: ways in my life.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm so glad you raised that point because
Speaker 1: I feel the same way that you don't have to
Speaker 1: love a job to learn from it. Now, and I
Speaker 1: think we all are thinking, well, I hate my job.
Speaker 1: I dislike it. It's the worst, it's a waste of time.
Speaker 1: I'm in the wrong place. But actually, if you just
Speaker 1: shift that to be like, what can I learn? What
Speaker 1: experience do I not have?
Speaker 3: How how do I not want to behave?
Speaker 1: Like?
Speaker 2: This boss drives me crazy? I'll never be this boss.
Speaker 2: I remember I had a boss like that, and I
Speaker 2: used to literally write down in the back of my
Speaker 2: book like you should never ever speak to people like
Speaker 2: that or call someone out in that way. And I
Speaker 2: think that's been so formative of what type of leader
Speaker 2: I want to be. But the two things for me
Speaker 2: haven't been mutually exclusive, right. I think that you can
Speaker 2: two things can be true at the one time you
Speaker 2: can be unashamedly ambitious and focused on what it is
Speaker 2: that you need while also being an inspiring and empathic
Speaker 2: leader who lifts other people up. And so I've been
Speaker 2: thinking about those type of things since I've been a boss,
Speaker 2: you know, for the last fifteen years, as a direct
Speaker 2: reflection of what I didn't experience when I was an employee.
Speaker 2: And so I actually think, God, all of those experiences
Speaker 2: were really good for me because now I.
Speaker 3: Know what I don't want to do.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Absolutely, I did a paper around to.
Speaker 2: It was heavy work, was it was, But that's where
Speaker 2: I feel like I got my appreciation for the morning.
Speaker 2: I'm such a like early bird, and I remember doing
Speaker 2: those paper arounds in the dark in England and it
Speaker 2: was kind of amazing because you'd like most houses were quiet, quiet,
Speaker 2: and then you'd see this like one house where like
Speaker 2: there's a little glimmer happening. And I thought I learned
Speaker 2: the power of the mornings from that particular job, like
Speaker 2: getting out getting a head start. I'd go home, I'd
Speaker 2: put on my school uniform before any of my sisters.
Speaker 2: I'd be sitting there with a cup of tea while
Speaker 2: they were all like scrambling around, and I was like,
Speaker 2: this early morning stuff, there's something to it, you know.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So I used to do mine in the evening.
Speaker 1: I didn't have to do in the morning, so I.
Speaker 3: Do after school. What about your people get in the papers?
Speaker 3: What happened to.
Speaker 1: That's fine, that's what I was talking to anyone amazing.
Speaker 1: But I would like, I'd walk around with my headphones on.
Speaker 1: I'd be listening to them, and I'd have, like, I
Speaker 1: know that paper out and I have this like really
Speaker 1: weird looking like trolley that around and then I have
Speaker 1: to take the papers into a bag. That bag stunt to.
Speaker 3: My bringing me back. I believe that too.
Speaker 2: I have like a lopsided shoulder because of that bag.
Speaker 1: It was so bad. But yeah, I learned the same
Speaker 1: thing like for me. So all the kids in my
Speaker 1: area what they used to do, the other kids who
Speaker 1: did the paper routes, They used to throw the papers
Speaker 1: off the edge of the train track or like in
Speaker 1: a bush or whatever it was. So then the guy
Speaker 1: who ran whatever company was that did the paper routes,
Speaker 1: he said to me, goes, Jay, You're the only reliable
Speaker 1: person I have, so I'm going to give you all
Speaker 1: their streets.
Speaker 3: Quittin. Yeah, exactly, you are making money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was amazing, and it's I love that you
Speaker 1: said that, that you learned, and I loved the passion.
Speaker 1: I wish you were at my local deli late and
Speaker 1: you know that stuff still happens today. I interviewed last year.
Speaker 1: I was doing a show for YouTube and I interviewed
Speaker 1: this TikToker called Markel Washington, And if anyone doesn't know
Speaker 1: who he is, he's awesome, like great energy to talented
Speaker 1: young guy and he was I think he worked in
Speaker 1: a subway. Wow, and he was. He used to dance
Speaker 1: and sing while he served right, and not only did
Speaker 1: he used to upload that to TikTok. He got found
Speaker 1: that way and now he's got this incredible career. And
Speaker 1: I love that energy of like back then when you
Speaker 1: were doing it and it took you maybe a lot
Speaker 1: longer to find that success, he was doing it more
Speaker 1: recently he found it. But it's interesting to see that
Speaker 1: it's the same sort of what was what was the
Speaker 1: hardest job that you did, the most unenjoyable, the most
Speaker 1: uncomfortable where you actually looked at and went, maybe it's
Speaker 1: not worth it, Like what was the one that pushed
Speaker 1: you to the edge.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, it's so interesting.
Speaker 2: It was probably the job that I did before starting
Speaker 2: my first company because such a part of that. I
Speaker 2: worked in a fashion show production company, which if you
Speaker 2: imagine I want to be in fashion, you think, yes,
Speaker 2: The reality of that is that you're building stages, you're
Speaker 2: working on this concept of like, you know, whatever you're
Speaker 2: producing for three months, the show goes up down in
Speaker 2: ten minutes, everybody goes off to the after party and
Speaker 2: you're doing d rig and you're like, oh.
Speaker 3: This is the worst job ever.
Speaker 2: And so I transitioned into this role of like sponsorship,
Speaker 2: which was so formative for my for the first business
Speaker 2: that I ever started, because it was all about brand
Speaker 2: partnerships and marketing and collaboration. But my role at that
Speaker 2: point when you know, nobody was just cold calling, right,
Speaker 2: so I would just have to like hit the phones
Speaker 2: and the rejection and you know you can't help but
Speaker 2: take that person and you're like, I haven't made one
Speaker 2: connection today, and that I found so disheartening.
Speaker 3: But you know, I even knew then.
Speaker 2: I was like, this will be worth something because for
Speaker 2: every like little knockback you got, you know, every kind
Speaker 2: of three days, you'd get one glimmer of hope and
Speaker 2: you'd take one meeting, and out of those ten meetings,
Speaker 2: maybe you'd start one deal. And actually it was very
Speaker 2: It was just like very telling about yourself, like what
Speaker 2: are you good at? And now I think, you know,
Speaker 2: as I think about entrepreneurship, and because I meet so
Speaker 2: many founders that skill of sales and storytelling. If you
Speaker 2: ain't got that, like, you can't do this job right.
Speaker 1: You can't.
Speaker 2: You can't sell to investors, you can't craft a story
Speaker 2: to customers, and you certainly can't get into the heart
Speaker 2: of like what makes a brand successful unless you can
Speaker 2: sell and storytell. And so again, it's just one of
Speaker 2: those things that I had to go through. But it
Speaker 2: was miserable.
Speaker 1: I didn't realize how many different similarities we have in
Speaker 1: our background, really. So I worked at the Business Design
Speaker 1: Center for a bit and I did like internships. Then
Speaker 1: I worked there over the summer and stuff, and all
Speaker 1: I had to do was sit there and call to
Speaker 1: sell the stands because you know, they'd have all the
Speaker 1: different stands for like the bike show or the there'd
Speaker 1: be fash formative. Yeah, it really is. And I remember
Speaker 1: the cold call, and I look back at then. I
Speaker 1: remember before then I was so I was quite introvert,
Speaker 1: quite shy, and then all of a sudden, when you're
Speaker 1: doing like three hundred cold nows a day, it's gone,
Speaker 1: it goes away, And it's amazing how so much can
Speaker 1: be removed from not your personality, but this kind of
Speaker 1: fear and securities that we often have as a kid.
Speaker 3: One hundred percent.
Speaker 2: And I feel like even now, you know, when I
Speaker 2: think about fear and what that's meant in my career
Speaker 2: so much because it's actually been helpful in so many ways.
Speaker 2: Like I always think about myself now and I'm like,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like if I am not a little
Speaker 2: bit scared about what I'm doing, like even coming here today, right,
Speaker 2: it's like, then I'm not growing, Like I'm not moving forward,
Speaker 2: I'm not going in the right direction. And so now
Speaker 2: I find myself looking for the fear. I'm like, what
Speaker 2: can I do that's going to scare me? Because like
Speaker 2: I know how to make genes. I can make you
Speaker 2: fantastic Nichas all day long, but actually, like branching out
Speaker 2: and trying to do something else is the stuff that
Speaker 2: keeps us as humans growing. And I think about that
Speaker 2: all the time because I spent such a huge part
Speaker 2: of my life being so crippled by fear and failing.
Speaker 2: And you know, I was a school I dropped out
Speaker 2: of school when I was fifteen or sixteen, I can't
Speaker 2: actually remember, it must have been fifteen. But you know,
Speaker 2: that always left me with this kind of inferiority complex
Speaker 2: that I wasn't educated in if I'd work in London
Speaker 2: around all of these like very hoity toity one for
Speaker 2: people that were fresh out of Cambridge and Oxford and
Speaker 2: had these wonderful educations, and I always felt a bit
Speaker 2: inferior for that.
Speaker 1: I was like, I'm going to get caught.
Speaker 2: They're going to find out that I don't, you know,
Speaker 2: have that educational background. I don't speak in the right way.
Speaker 2: And you know, I feel like for so long that
Speaker 2: held me back until I've realized no, no, no, that's
Speaker 2: my fuel, that's what makes me me And if I'm
Speaker 2: not a little bit scared now, I find myself just
Speaker 2: actually looking for it because I know I need that
Speaker 2: fire in my belly.
Speaker 1: Like the whole time, did you ever feel that anyone
Speaker 1: ever made you feel inferior? Because of a lack of
Speaker 1: the formal education or was it in internal.
Speaker 2: I'm sure they did, but it was much stronger the
Speaker 2: internal voice.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: It's like, I don't think anybody you know what it's
Speaker 2: like when you're in London. There is such a class system, right,
Speaker 2: and people know immediately they in this country, they think
Speaker 2: you and I sound like the Queen. We know in
Speaker 2: reality we don't bake. And in London, any English people
Speaker 2: listening to that us absolutely know that. And so there
Speaker 2: is always that you open your mouth and immediately you're judging.
Speaker 2: You know exactly where I'm from, and you can attribute
Speaker 2: a set of circumstances to that. But I think it
Speaker 2: was much more about the voice in my own head.
Speaker 2: And I think about that an awful lot now in
Speaker 2: the way that I've set up my life and my businesses.
Speaker 2: And you know, I believe very much in this idea,
Speaker 2: like this rule of thirds, right, I think about it constantly.
Speaker 2: You know, when you are doing something very difficult, or
Speaker 2: you are chasing a dream, you're going to be happy
Speaker 2: about a third at the time. You're going to feel
Speaker 2: okay about a third of the time, and the other
Speaker 2: third at the time you're going to feel pretty crappy,
Speaker 2: you are going to feel bad. And if the ratios
Speaker 2: get out of whack and things are not actually you're
Speaker 2: too happy, you're probably not pushing yourself hard in it enough.
Speaker 2: And if you know you're actually spending too much time,
Speaker 2: you're probably not you know, you're not thinking about it right.
Speaker 2: But I do think that that leaning that I've had
Speaker 2: my whole life, like the idea that I shouldn't and
Speaker 2: be comfortable and happy all of the time, actually really
Speaker 2: helps me so much. And I think about that idea
Speaker 2: of the third and the third and the third, and
Speaker 2: it doesn't scare me anymore. I'm like, oh, I'm just
Speaker 2: having one of the days that is my crappy date.
Speaker 2: That's okay because what I'm doing isn't straightforward, it isn't
Speaker 2: what everybody's doing, and it's supposed to be difficult. It's
Speaker 2: supposed to be heavy, it's supposed to not be comfortable
Speaker 2: all the time. And I think that that for me
Speaker 2: has been a way that I can actually get through
Speaker 2: those times that are a bit more tricky.
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Speaker 1: You know, I love that. I've never heard someone say
Speaker 1: it like that, but really, yeah, that's such a unique
Speaker 1: way of thinking about it. She said. The third's are okay, yeah,
Speaker 1: happy and then terrible.
Speaker 3: And then terrible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's so spot on, and I've never heard someone
Speaker 1: break it down like that simply. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Well, I am a very simple girl. You know that
Speaker 3: I have to break it down like that for myself.
Speaker 2: But you know, it's really helpful because I think in
Speaker 2: any part of your life, like there is especially now
Speaker 2: because I work with so many people, there is this idea.
Speaker 2: And also you know, I'm a mom of four, right,
Speaker 2: so there is this part of me it's like, I
Speaker 2: just want my kids to be all right and to
Speaker 2: be happy all the time. And I'm like, actually, no,
Speaker 2: because it's in those moments and you know this more
Speaker 2: than anyone of challenge of difficulty, that's when you grow
Speaker 2: the most. But we shouldn't rather than like trying to
Speaker 2: remove that from my children or take those times away
Speaker 2: from my employees, or think that's not okay, it's like no, no, no, guys,
Speaker 2: Like that's what it's about.
Speaker 3: And if you're.
Speaker 2: Coasting through life and doing something like really simplistic, fine,
Speaker 2: you might just feel all right all the time. But
Speaker 2: I am so happy when the good is good that
Speaker 2: I'll take the okay and the bad. You know it's
Speaker 2: worth it because it actually all comes out even in
Speaker 2: the end.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Sure, when you were chasing the dreams back in
Speaker 1: the day, or like trying to build it up, were
Speaker 1: you dating, did you care about that. Was that like
Speaker 1: because a beautiful family. Yeah, now you have a beautiful family,
Speaker 1: you have a wonderful partner, you have four kids, as
Speaker 1: you said. But I wondered then, like I feel like
Speaker 1: a lot of us spend a lot of our teams
Speaker 1: and our twenties thinking about love totally? Was that how
Speaker 1: you were too or one hundred percent? I don't think
Speaker 1: I've ever been without a boyfriend. I'm a person that
Speaker 1: needs someone, and you know, I went around a little
Speaker 1: bit and I was very happy to settle down at
Speaker 1: twenty five, twenty six. I don't feel like I missed out,
Speaker 1: you know, because we started so early. I feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, I was like out in the clubs when
Speaker 1: I was thirteen fourteen, and then I had this stint
Speaker 1: in Abizza when I was asked to leave school. So
Speaker 1: it's like I've had a lot of living before I
Speaker 1: got there.
Speaker 2: And I think that I've always been someone that has
Speaker 2: chased love, Like I love that feeling, but as you
Speaker 2: get older, you realize you know what that really means.
Speaker 2: Like today, it's like I want to be loved back,
Speaker 2: but it's not all about that rush, you know. It's
Speaker 2: like I've been with my husband now for fifteen years,
Speaker 2: married for eleven, and the things that I value have
Speaker 2: completely shifted.
Speaker 1: Right.
Speaker 2: It's like and we've been on a journey together. And
Speaker 2: I think that in life you need chapters and just
Speaker 2: as the same, you know, like in carea and you
Speaker 2: need you know, needing transitions and to transform. Relationships need
Speaker 2: chapters like that too. The first five years, we traveled
Speaker 2: the world, we parted, we got drunk, we did all
Speaker 2: the things that you do, and then we went through
Speaker 2: a period of having children and that's extremely challenging on
Speaker 2: any relationship, especially while the two of you are enormously ambitious.
Speaker 2: And I think that what I have with my husband
Speaker 2: is this extremely unique partnership where he always understood that
Speaker 2: I was ambitious and I needed to do things and
Speaker 2: he's completely supported that. And I think that the love
Speaker 2: that I have for him has grown exponentially because we've
Speaker 2: been still I've still been able to chase all of
Speaker 2: my dreams outside of the relationship and the family structure
Speaker 2: while having someone really support me do that.
Speaker 1: That's it. Yeah, we won't, we won't go down the stint.
Speaker 3: And no, it's really fun a calling part.
Speaker 2: No, I just feel like, you know, it's like you
Speaker 2: have there's a part of my life life where I
Speaker 2: think there was a need to escape, you know, and
Speaker 2: I found that I was a real club kid. That's
Speaker 2: what I enjoyed. I wanted to go out. For me,
Speaker 2: it was actually never about getting smashed, but it was
Speaker 2: like the music and those super late nights and the
Speaker 2: like that whole community of it. Like I was friends
Speaker 2: with the DJs and the MC's and you know, like
Speaker 2: I was on the list and like I did that
Speaker 2: whole thing. I think that was a huge formative part
Speaker 2: of my childhood, Like I would not or not my
Speaker 2: childhood my kind of late teens early twenties, like I
Speaker 2: needed to go and get like remove myself from from
Speaker 2: what my kind of everyday life and my upbringing was.
Speaker 2: And it kind of introduced me to a lot of
Speaker 2: alternative things and people and ways of being. And you know,
Speaker 2: it's like you go to IBF, you you learned yoga
Speaker 2: for the first time. I was like, well, what's this.
Speaker 2: Nobody I knew in plast I was doing yoga.
Speaker 1: I didn't.
Speaker 3: Nor for the island, but.
Speaker 2: You know, it was like there's just there's things that
Speaker 2: I think that part of my life really opened me
Speaker 2: up to and I felt like in some ways, even
Speaker 2: though I saw a lot as a kid and I
Speaker 2: was experienced to some pretty kind of gruesome things, there
Speaker 2: was a whole part of life and sort of a
Speaker 2: way of living and a kind of level of peace
Speaker 2: and understanding of people that was not ever explained to
Speaker 2: me and was not part of my childhood and my upbringing.
Speaker 3: And I learned that much later.
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, thank you for sharing that. It's so yeah,
Speaker 1: it's so interesting. Again, we often feel like the next
Speaker 1: chapter will be better, and you've just broke it down
Speaker 1: and said, well, no, actually there's going to be every chapter,
Speaker 1: and every chapter has its reason and has its story.
Speaker 1: And you just said I loved that. I lived life
Speaker 1: that way, and then when I met my partner, I
Speaker 1: knew it, knew it was going to work. And even
Speaker 1: that's had so many chapters inside of it. Absolutely, what
Speaker 1: would you How would your mum describe what she saw
Speaker 1: as a little girl to who she sees now.
Speaker 2: I think she'd say saying, so, I was always a
Speaker 2: pain for everyone around me, you know.
Speaker 3: I literally I was that kid.
Speaker 2: I actually didn't you know, I didn't have many for
Speaker 2: I wasn't that the popular kid. You know, my sisters
Speaker 2: were all massive athletes, hugely popular. I was a bit
Speaker 2: more of a loner. I had like, you know, two
Speaker 2: or three really solid friends. Sounds exactly like today, actually,
Speaker 2: but you know it was like I was that kid.
Speaker 2: I was like in my own head, I've always been
Speaker 2: a dreamer. But you know, my mom would always say,
Speaker 2: she was like, you're a dreamer, but you're a doer.
Speaker 2: And I always had those two things. I don't think
Speaker 2: I've changed that much.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: I think about myself and I've been absolutely the same
Speaker 2: since I was seven years old.
Speaker 3: This is how I've always felt. That's how I've always been.
Speaker 1: That's epic, that's so cool. I wonder how you see
Speaker 1: that with now being a mom too, Like now when
Speaker 1: you're looking at your kids.
Speaker 2: Know what, it's wild because I think, like so many moms,
Speaker 2: especially mothers that work in the same way that I do, Right,
Speaker 2: you're kind of played by this idea of what you're
Speaker 2: supposed to be and do as a mother. And because
Speaker 2: I grew up with a mum that left the house
Speaker 2: every day, that went to work, I have maybe a
Speaker 2: different idea of what I'm supposed to be providing for
Speaker 2: those kids. I think it's really important that my children
Speaker 2: see me living out my dreams and hopefully they'll do
Speaker 2: the same for themselves. But you know, everybody, the question
Speaker 2: always kind of boils down to, like how do you
Speaker 2: do it all? And I really think it's important to
Speaker 2: dispel that myth of doing it all because women have
Speaker 2: been really sold a crop of crap, like it's like
Speaker 2: you can't have it all all the time, and my
Speaker 2: life is a series of trade offs, right, that's just
Speaker 2: a fact. I'm not the mom who is at the schoolgate.
Speaker 2: I'm not there for pick up and drop off, I'm
Speaker 2: not at the school gala. Hopefully my kids get something
Speaker 2: else from me, which is a sense of actually living
Speaker 2: out your dreams and what you're supposed to do. And
Speaker 2: I think that they see that and really appreciate having
Speaker 2: that for me. But I think it's very important that
Speaker 2: we stop talking about this idea of like balance, because
Speaker 2: there is no balance in my life. Like it's it's rubbish,
Speaker 2: you know. It's like I have to go wherever the
Speaker 2: energy is that morning, and my children have to fit
Speaker 2: around that. Nothing's changed, Like I said, I'm still the same,
Speaker 2: the same person, and for children, yes, it changes the
Speaker 2: the kind of you know, routine of your day, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't change who you are fundamentally. And I am
Speaker 2: one of those person people that think, you know, my
Speaker 2: children have to fit around me, and that's just a fact.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it just it is what it is.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And I'll say as a kid who grew up
Speaker 1: with a mom who is working that hard and like
Speaker 1: had her. So my mom trained to be a financial
Speaker 1: advisor so that she could be self employed, as we
Speaker 1: called it, and she was an entrepreneur. But the language
Speaker 1: can manage your own time, own time, so she could
Speaker 1: be there for us. So my mom would make us breakfast,
Speaker 1: us to school, pack lines amazing, and then she'd go
Speaker 1: to work superwoman, pick us up, feed us, and then
Speaker 1: go back out to work. And sometimes I join her.
Speaker 1: I'd go out with her in the car and sit
Speaker 1: with my son's in my office clients, and.
Speaker 3: I should I should have.
Speaker 1: And it's just I saw my mom be so active.
Speaker 1: My mom was never she wasn't around they just hanging
Speaker 1: around the house. She wasn't available in that way. Again,
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that's a bad thing. I'm just saying
Speaker 1: my mom wasn't. And as someone who grew up with
Speaker 1: the mom like that, Like, not only do I love
Speaker 1: and respect my mom insanely insane, I also just saw
Speaker 1: that you could still feel loved without having loads of time.
Speaker 2: It's about quality, right, I always think about that My
Speaker 2: kids need me, like in a one hundred percent capacity,
Speaker 2: like not half looking at my phone, not half doing work,
Speaker 2: not surrounded by lots of people in the house. And
Speaker 2: I really try to think about them as individuals because
Speaker 2: I have a boy and a girl and then boy
Speaker 2: girl twins, and I like to do things with my
Speaker 2: kids individually so that I can really understand who they
Speaker 2: are and what their needs are, not like this sort
Speaker 2: of like family pack, you know, because a very big,
Speaker 2: qutous one comes that I'm.
Speaker 3: Like, ah, like all of you in the car.
Speaker 2: But I think that, you know, again, when you grow
Speaker 2: up in a big family, you have ideas and experiences
Speaker 2: of how it wasn't so great and what you'd want
Speaker 2: to do differently, and so I try to apply that.
Speaker 2: But I think for most women it's really it's really
Speaker 2: important to just level, like lower the expectations a little
Speaker 2: bit and be honest with ourselves about what we're capable of,
Speaker 2: because it's really something that I think there's so much
Speaker 2: being thrown at women all the time about what you
Speaker 2: should do and how you should advocate for yourself, and
Speaker 2: you know, and it quite frankly, is just too much.
Speaker 2: It is not feasible. It is not something that we
Speaker 2: can all cope with. And I think that you do
Speaker 2: what you do to get through the day, and we
Speaker 2: should all just like lower the expectation levels a little bit.
Speaker 2: That isn't to say lower your ambition level, but that's
Speaker 2: just to say, don't feel.
Speaker 3: Bad about what you're doing. At the end of it.
Speaker 2: It's like, we all do as much as we can
Speaker 2: and our kids will all be all right. They don't
Speaker 2: need us to usher them through every experience in the day.
Speaker 1: And they'll be who they are.
Speaker 3: They'll be who they are.
Speaker 1: How did you make peace with that? Because I feel
Speaker 1: like I love that perspective and I'm sure it's going
Speaker 1: to help so many people, but I think people struggle
Speaker 1: with this. We love being the controller, we love making
Speaker 1: sure everything's right. We also so hard on ourselves, as
Speaker 1: you were just saying, because people were hard on us,
Speaker 1: and now we think we need to be super mom
Speaker 1: and maybe our mom did it, or maybe our Auntie
Speaker 1: did it whatever. I think there's a lot of people
Speaker 1: who are just like I get that, but I don't
Speaker 1: know how to make peace with that one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: You know, it's a great question. And I always think
Speaker 2: about I'm somebody that's absolutely like fixated and fascinated by memories. Right,
Speaker 2: I always like go back and I think about, like
Speaker 2: the big important things in my life, What did I
Speaker 2: really enjoy from last year? What were the moments that
Speaker 2: like hear in my memory? And when you do that,
Speaker 2: it very rarely has anything to do with any level
Speaker 2: of perfection. The best moments are the sporadic moments that
Speaker 2: were unplanned. When you're sitting there, the kids are a mess,
Speaker 2: you're in the garden, something happened that just made it so.
Speaker 2: And it's never the moments that you kind of forced.
Speaker 2: It's never the things that you planned. It's never the
Speaker 2: ones that you spent like all your energy on. And
Speaker 2: so I think that it just becomes about like this
Speaker 2: great like you've got to weigh it up, right, You've
Speaker 2: got a wigh up like what is worth it? And
Speaker 2: what where do you derive enjoyment from? And I think
Speaker 2: anyone who looks at their life will actually find that
Speaker 2: it's in the small stuff. It's in those moments that
Speaker 2: you just let it all go. And so I think
Speaker 2: it's really it's such a good exercise, especially for women
Speaker 2: and moms, to just kind of backtrack and say, in
Speaker 2: the last twelve months, what were the single best moments
Speaker 2: that you had, and then you will absolutely not about
Speaker 2: whatever it is that is weighing you down today because
Speaker 2: it's never what you think.
Speaker 3: Ever, it never has been for me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and don't judge the moment right like we can.
Speaker 1: We're so quick to be like, oh, I just I
Speaker 1: said the wrong thing totally, and all of a sudden
Speaker 1: I said the wrong thing becomes I messed up today.
Speaker 2: I shouldn't be here. I don't belong, I'm not supposed
Speaker 2: to be part of it. And it's so interesting. I remember,
Speaker 2: like there's this brilliant story about when Oprah was going
Speaker 2: through this like crazy, crazy time in her life and
Speaker 2: she turns up at Quincy Jones's house for dinner and
Speaker 2: she said to him, oh my god, like, it's so terrible,
Speaker 2: it's so awful of you've seen the press and and
Speaker 2: he's like, what are you talking about? He hasn't seen
Speaker 2: anything right, Because at the end of the day, no
Speaker 2: one's watching you. No one's watching you like you're watching you.
Speaker 2: Most of your mistakes is in private, and so I
Speaker 2: often think about that because it's like everybody's so bothered
Speaker 2: about their own stuff and what's going on in their head,
Speaker 2: they're not thinking about you. And so sometimes you just
Speaker 2: have to release a little bit. And I always try
Speaker 2: to think about like what is real?
Speaker 1: What is ego?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: And so much of it is ego, so especially around
Speaker 2: the mom part, funnily enough, right, because we're all trying
Speaker 2: to do and be better than what we had and
Speaker 2: change things for our children and be this impossible, wonderful,
Speaker 2: perfect mother. And that's nothing to do with your kids,
Speaker 2: because what your kids want is just a bit of
Speaker 2: you in the most simple way.
Speaker 1: They don't care about any of that stuff.
Speaker 2: And so again, it really is that challenge of really
Speaker 2: sitting down and speaking to your children and thinking to yourself,
Speaker 2: like what actually matters? And I think it's like those
Speaker 2: small moments.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's well said. And as I said, as
Speaker 1: someone who received a lot of that from my mum,
Speaker 1: I felt like I never doubted whether my mom loved
Speaker 1: me or not. Whether she could come to my rugby
Speaker 1: game or not, or whether she could come and watch
Speaker 1: me at the class rehearsals or dramas or whatever we
Speaker 1: were doing. If she was there or she wasn't there,
Speaker 1: that wasn't how I felt long she loved it, absolutely, Yeah,
Speaker 1: because it was so it's it's such a core part
Speaker 1: of my life. I feel today I have like so
Speaker 1: much love to give because of how much my mother
Speaker 1: love And it's not that she was there every one.
Speaker 1: So yeah, and the flip side, I'm sure there's people
Speaker 1: who would think, God, my parents were around all the time,
Speaker 1: and and I didn't necessarily.
Speaker 2: Didn't necessarily connect exactly, it didn't necessarily feel connected.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've talked about this before, and I really like it,
Speaker 1: this whole idea of like you can't have it all
Speaker 1: and everyone's always talking about balance, and I agree with you.
Speaker 1: I don't think balance exists either, even in my life
Speaker 1: because I often get that, oh ja mindfulness and meditation,
Speaker 1: but that's not balance, Like you're actually constantly using these
Speaker 1: tools and techniques to be back at a point of
Speaker 1: theory ecanimity. Yeah, exactly, Yeah, to be back at the
Speaker 1: point of equanimity. But there isn't this idealized balance? Now
Speaker 1: when it comes to you know, you and your partner,
Speaker 1: you both have great careers, you do some things together,
Speaker 1: lots of things individually. How does that like? I guess
Speaker 1: my question there is what is the one thing you
Speaker 1: both need from each other that allows you to stay
Speaker 1: connected whilst having collective empires individual empires and then a
Speaker 1: beautiful family is well on top of all of that.
Speaker 2: I honestly think that just comes down to love, because
Speaker 2: it's different things in different moments, and if you really
Speaker 2: really love someone, then you do what they need in
Speaker 2: that moment, whether or not it's good for you right
Speaker 2: there or what you might have discussed right That comes
Speaker 2: down to do I really love this person and want
Speaker 2: the best for them in this thing, this moment, this decision,
Speaker 2: and more than anything, you know, I have such an
Speaker 2: admiration for my husband in so many different ways in
Speaker 2: how he thinks and how he approaches things and what
Speaker 2: type of father he is. And you know, love does
Speaker 2: lots of different things, but you know, usually it grows
Speaker 2: or it dwindles. Right, It's like in relationships, and I
Speaker 2: think that mine is still growing. But it just comes
Speaker 2: down to the fact that I love him. It isn't
Speaker 2: any more complicated than that. We have lots of things
Speaker 2: that we do together, and I do think there is
Speaker 2: a huge thing of this idea of chapters and having
Speaker 2: projects together, you know, to some extent, children at that
Speaker 2: because you go through this like you know, trying to
Speaker 2: get pregnant and then being pregnant and then having the
Speaker 2: baby in those early days, and then those stories about
Speaker 2: those early days, and then buying houses together and doing
Speaker 2: those houses up, and so there is this element. And
Speaker 2: with us, we've also had the businesses that to some degree,
Speaker 2: and in some businesses we've done those things together. And
Speaker 2: so they have been these chapters and these projects that
Speaker 2: have been extremely i'd say pivotal in our life. And
Speaker 2: you often see that that when you know, couples have
Speaker 2: kids that fly the nest, it's like suddenly they don't
Speaker 2: have a project anymore. It's like everything's done and they're like, Okay,
Speaker 2: we don't have anything. So we have that together. But
Speaker 2: I feel like in my life, I'm extremely ritualistic, you know,
Speaker 2: That's just how I am. And there's parts of our
Speaker 2: relationship that have taken on some of those rituals. In
Speaker 2: terms of you know, how we think about time just
Speaker 2: us and not with the children, how we think about
Speaker 2: setting up our mornings, and those things become sort of
Speaker 2: bedrocks and foundations that for what I think is like
Speaker 2: a healthy relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I really gain from what you're saying right now.
Speaker 1: And I hope everyone's listening and taking notes too, because
Speaker 1: there's so many great, great insights that are like you
Speaker 1: just sprinkling them everywhere. I'm like trying to catch them.
Speaker 1: And there's I love the idea that if you value
Speaker 1: a relationship in your life, your relationship is only as
Speaker 1: good as the stories you've lived together and the memories
Speaker 1: you've made. And if you stop making stories and memories
Speaker 1: with people, then you're constantly living in the past.
Speaker 2: Exactly, which is so unhealthy. And you've seen that in
Speaker 2: so many friendships. Right when you're no longer creating together,
Speaker 2: you have nothing but your old memories, and after a
Speaker 2: while that just dwindles. So you need to consistently create.
Speaker 2: And that can be big things or small things. It
Speaker 2: can be building a you know, shed in your back garden,
Speaker 2: but something that you live out together and you see
Speaker 2: to fruition and you create and you make and I
Speaker 2: think that that's a really important part of ever relationship.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and to keep doing that and keep getting exciting
Speaker 1: together about something absolutely yeah, rather than just like how
Speaker 1: is your day, and then you're doing your own world
Speaker 1: and then their world and all.
Speaker 2: Of that separation, you know, And that's how so many couples,
Speaker 2: I think where it goes wrong. You're kind of living
Speaker 2: out the most exciting parts of your life entirely separately.
Speaker 3: And I feel with us, you know, it's like.
Speaker 2: We just bought a cold plunge, and like the cold
Speaker 2: plunge has become the thing, right, we're literally just like
Speaker 2: how many minutes are you going to do?
Speaker 3: How many minutes are you going to do?
Speaker 2: Oh my god, you're gonna put your head under it,
Speaker 2: like you know, but it becomes this thing that you're
Speaker 2: living out together and now will be like cold plunge
Speaker 2: bullies to all of our friends. Even something so small
Speaker 2: like that can be so like magical for a relationship
Speaker 2: because you're learning and pushing and doing something together.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we do the same. But my wife she's so good.
Speaker 1: She's not she's so good. I can't even try to
Speaker 1: be well.
Speaker 2: I married a Swedish man, so I feel like I'm
Speaker 2: at a disadvantage, like from the outset and you were
Speaker 2: basically born in the ice, Like, come on course, you're
Speaker 2: better at this than I have.
Speaker 1: That's amazing. And then we've been playing pickleball as well.
Speaker 2: That's a but I don't think I'm going to I'm
Speaker 2: it's so funny. You guys can come over and you
Speaker 2: can show how it's done.
Speaker 1: It's so much fun. And again it's just doing taking
Speaker 1: on a new project and you know, whatever it may be,
Speaker 1: you've I love that you were saying that you love
Speaker 1: memories and that you kind of almost have a memory bank.
Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, do you think there's
Speaker 1: a memory in your life that you've kind of like
Speaker 1: locked away or hidden away that you kind of like
Speaker 1: it's almost He's in that movie Inception and so he
Speaker 1: locks it away in the basement and he never goes
Speaker 1: there because it kind of it has sometimes gonna be good, bad,
Speaker 1: it can be anything. But do you have a memory
Speaker 1: you've locked away?
Speaker 2: I think I probably have a lot of memories that
Speaker 2: I've locked away. And you know, it's really interesting. We
Speaker 2: should have maybe done this podcast back in a month.
Speaker 2: I'm going to go to the Hoffmann institute. I think
Speaker 2: I have an enormous amount of that in my life.
Speaker 2: And I said to you earlier, you know, I think
Speaker 2: if you're not. I think about my life in terms
Speaker 2: of like practice, right. It's like I'm practicing every day
Speaker 2: like who I want to be. And I think that
Speaker 2: that's a great way to teach my children because they
Speaker 2: do what they see. And I never beat myself up
Speaker 2: about my past, who I've been, my background, where I
Speaker 2: came from, because I know that I'm constantly moving and evolving.
Speaker 2: And I feel like if you're not working on yourself,
Speaker 2: then you're not really living, do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: I feel like the purpose of my life is to
Speaker 2: explore how I can be the best version of me.
Speaker 2: And I don't just mean that in business. I mean
Speaker 2: in every single facet of my life. How can I
Speaker 2: be the best mum and the best wife and the
Speaker 2: best boss, like all of those things that mean a
Speaker 2: lot to me. But it takes work and it takes practice,
Speaker 2: and I don't get it right every single day. And
Speaker 2: when I think to answer your question about memories and
Speaker 2: things I've locked away, it's when I've not been proud
Speaker 2: of my behavior. But those are always things that I
Speaker 2: am willing to kind of hold my hands up to
Speaker 2: and work on. And I feel like I've done especially
Speaker 2: now I live here. You know, you come and you
Speaker 2: do the work right, It's like it's just the grown
Speaker 2: up thing to do. And I feel like that's been
Speaker 2: one of the reasons I've enjoyed being in La so
Speaker 2: much is because I've had this whole obviously all the
Speaker 2: success with the businesses, but on this other side, I've
Speaker 2: had this huge awakening in terms of who I am
Speaker 2: and who I'm supposed to be and how I'm evolving
Speaker 2: as a person. And so I really feel like those
Speaker 2: are things that I'm still exploring and I will be
Speaker 2: until the day I die. You know, I'm always in
Speaker 2: learning mode.
Speaker 1: I love that. And you're invited back afterwards. You don't
Speaker 1: have to worry. No, No, What I mean is I
Speaker 1: hope this is not going to be the last time.
Speaker 1: You can't. But what's a memory that you'd love to
Speaker 1: relive or you revisit offten mentally and you can close
Speaker 1: your eyes and you're like, yeah, I'm there, Like I'd
Speaker 1: love to live that again because.
Speaker 2: It was you know, it's so crazy. I think it's
Speaker 2: probably I mean feel so bad on my kids. But
Speaker 2: the birth of my first child, like that was so
Speaker 2: insane and amazing. And it's really funny because women like
Speaker 2: often say like everything changed. Then you know, it's like
Speaker 2: and I and for me, everything changed in that moment.
Speaker 2: I remember having just had Gray and YenS was holding
Speaker 2: him on like you know, the side of the bed,
Speaker 2: and I thought, I have got to get out of
Speaker 2: this bed and go to the office. And that's all
Speaker 2: I could think of my head because it was like,
Speaker 2: all of a sudden, I had the reason I was
Speaker 2: doing all of this stuff for. And it never become
Speaker 2: more clear to me than in that moment. I was like, okay,
Speaker 2: like now real life stants. Wow, yeah, yeah, that's really
Speaker 2: how I felt. I was like, get me back, like
Speaker 2: into the office, like immediately.
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, forget the baby.
Speaker 2: No, nothing about going home and like snuggling with my child.
Speaker 2: I was like, I have a reason to do what
Speaker 2: I'm doing now, and.
Speaker 1: That can coexist with loving your kids, because.
Speaker 2: Again, like you can be so many different things. It's
Speaker 2: like I am a super nurturing, hands on mum and
Speaker 2: I really enjoy motherhood.
Speaker 3: I just have other stuff that I like too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, why do I think we struggle to
Speaker 1: have those two ideas?
Speaker 2: Your society is setting up that you're one or the other.
Speaker 2: Right you're either putting on your heels and like banging
Speaker 2: out the door and like don't see your kids and
Speaker 2: put them to bed, or you're like this really sweet mom.
Speaker 2: It's like, no ONEm both. I'm actually everything. I am
Speaker 2: every woman.
Speaker 3: Like it's just like tough, do you know?
Speaker 2: It's like I think that actually what it is that
Speaker 2: you know, there are all of these like misconceptions about
Speaker 2: what you are allowed to be, and I don't think
Speaker 2: we put those same things on men, because men can
Speaker 2: be like totally in the office and killing the DEALM Like,
Speaker 2: then just be this incredible dad throwing like a football
Speaker 2: on the weekend. It's like you're fully allowed and it's fine,
Speaker 2: But for women it's not so fine. And so, you know,
Speaker 2: so much of what I do in my work and
Speaker 2: my businesses and actually just sort of trying to be
Speaker 2: honest about me and how I operate is to dispel
Speaker 2: a lot of them smiths, because I do think that
Speaker 2: we are not one dimensional and you can be so
Speaker 2: many different things and also so many different things to
Speaker 2: different people. You know, I'm one person to my husband
Speaker 2: and one to my kids, and if you were to
Speaker 2: come in my office, I think they give you a
Speaker 2: whole different version of me.
Speaker 3: I like it all over it.
Speaker 1: It's true that we all have to there's all different
Speaker 1: facets to each part of ourselves, and I want.
Speaker 2: It's about the level of acceptance, right like are you
Speaker 2: are you allowed to be that? And is it accepted?
Speaker 2: And that's why, you know, Jay, it's so interesting. I
Speaker 2: don't think I've ever listened to a podcast where a
Speaker 2: man has been asked about imposter syndrome.
Speaker 1: Not once.
Speaker 2: It is a question that is the special reserve for women,
Speaker 2: as is the question of balance.
Speaker 3: No one says, hey, YenS, how.
Speaker 2: Are you balancing it all the brands and the business
Speaker 2: and the kids. No, what says that to my husband?
Speaker 3: They say it to me.
Speaker 2: Every day, every single day. Or what is it like
Speaker 2: to be a black woman in business? I'm like, what
Speaker 2: kind of question is that?
Speaker 3: You know?
Speaker 2: But there are things that for women, just like we're
Speaker 2: still not able to get over this idea that we
Speaker 2: have in our heads that we can't be many things
Speaker 2: to many people.
Speaker 3: And I just don't believe in that.
Speaker 1: At all, yeah, No, I'm with you and with you,
Speaker 1: and I really feel that naturally, all those questions are
Speaker 1: coming because that's what people are scared about and insecure
Speaker 1: about and worried about. And it's, as you said, it's
Speaker 1: come because it's been created in society. I read a
Speaker 1: there was this research paper a long time ago, and
Speaker 1: I won't get it absolutely accurate, but the point was
Speaker 1: that when men and women look at a job application,
Speaker 1: if men can do some of it, they'll apply, and
Speaker 1: even if women can't do one part of it, they
Speaker 1: won't apply.
Speaker 2: I see that every single day in my own office,
Speaker 2: right a guy will work for me for six months
Speaker 2: and come and ask me for a pay rise, and
Speaker 2: then I will say to a woman, I don't think
Speaker 2: you've had a pay rise for like a year and
Speaker 2: a half, like do you know what I mean? It's
Speaker 2: like or somebody that will come in and say, like
Speaker 2: I speak absolutely fluent Spanish and a woman who's nine
Speaker 2: you've sent there. I won't even mention it. So there
Speaker 2: are those obvious things, and that's just about you know,
Speaker 2: so many times for women there is this natural nurturers.
Speaker 3: We naturally play.
Speaker 2: Down our skills, and I think that that is just
Speaker 2: something that society has taught us, and so I think
Speaker 2: about it all the time. I'm quite the opposite, you know,
Speaker 2: I'll go in and pretend I can do anything in
Speaker 2: a picture meeting, or it's like I'll say what needs
Speaker 2: to say to get it done, do you know what
Speaker 2: I mean? But I do think that for so many women,
Speaker 2: there is this like sort of magical golden moment in
Speaker 2: your life where you're free of a lot of constraints.
Speaker 2: You know, maybe you don't have a mortgage, you don't
Speaker 2: have children, yet you're not in a really serious relationship,
Speaker 2: where there is this moment to be incredibly selfish. And
Speaker 2: for most women, when all of the responsibilities pylon, they
Speaker 2: stop doing that. And I think that actually, just as women,
Speaker 2: we would do better to be selfish for longer in
Speaker 2: our lives. And that's the type of thing. And so
Speaker 2: many people will be like, oh, I just don't like
Speaker 2: the word. I can't you find another way to dress
Speaker 2: it up? Absolutely no, because I mean what I say.
Speaker 2: You do have to think about yourself because nobody else
Speaker 2: is thinking about that for you. Everybody else is too
Speaker 2: busy thinking about themselves. And so this idea of being
Speaker 2: selfish shouldn't feel like such a foreign thing for women
Speaker 2: or a dirty word for women. It's like you have
Speaker 2: to be there is no other way to get ahead
Speaker 2: and to do what you want to do. You have
Speaker 2: to put your needs and your wants and your ambition
Speaker 2: first because no one is going to do that for you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's hard, isn't it? When like you were saying,
Speaker 1: you've tried to be the boss that you didn't have.
Speaker 1: I can identify with that. I try and be the
Speaker 1: bosses that I didn't have. And I think it is
Speaker 1: really wonderful when you see a great relationship building with
Speaker 1: people you work with where they recognize you're being the
Speaker 1: boss that they never had as well and you are too,
Speaker 1: And you're also realizing they're being a great person of
Speaker 1: your team that hasn't been like other people have been.
Speaker 1: How have you learned to like sense that and know
Speaker 1: that when you're like, Okay, well me and this person
Speaker 1: can go and build together and create together, or this
Speaker 1: is the right person to recruit onto my team, or
Speaker 1: like what are the things that you're looking at and
Speaker 1: trying to decipher? Because I think right now we do
Speaker 1: live in a world where also people are thinking about
Speaker 1: a job as a paycheck and they don't care. Whereas
Speaker 1: you're very passionate, You're very driven. You always have been
Speaker 1: since the Deli. So it's like, if you've cared that
Speaker 1: much about the Delhi and the sandwich, obviously you care
Speaker 1: so much about what you do today totally, how do
Speaker 1: you do that? Well?
Speaker 2: You know, I think I'm really realistic because you will
Speaker 2: have those people in your business that come to work
Speaker 2: with you literally because you know, a good America we
Speaker 2: are be court registered, right, and people feel that they
Speaker 2: want to work in a company that cares about the environment,
Speaker 2: that cares about what they're putting out. And you'll get
Speaker 2: people that care about the mission and the vision and
Speaker 2: the values. But I don't expect that everybody will care.
Speaker 2: I know that there are some people that just come
Speaker 2: and they just want their paycheck. And so for me,
Speaker 2: I try to say separate who I am and what
Speaker 2: I might need from what somebody else might need. My
Speaker 2: expectation is that not everybody's bouncing in there trying to
Speaker 2: kill it for me, right, I'm really sure that a
Speaker 2: lot of these people come in and they do their
Speaker 2: job and they're working on their side hustle halfway through
Speaker 2: the day, and that's okay. You know, it's like, that's
Speaker 2: not for everyone. And I think that as I've got older,
Speaker 2: I've learned not to put my type of ambition on,
Speaker 2: you know, or not to try to reflect that onto
Speaker 2: everybody that's around me. And those people, well, of course
Speaker 2: they'll rise to the top, they'll make themselves known.
Speaker 3: But it isn't for everybody.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's just a fact. And also you need that when
Speaker 2: you're building a team. If everybody was an ambitious little monster,
Speaker 2: it would be a disaster.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: You need people happy to come in, grind, do their job,
Speaker 2: and leave at five o'clock.
Speaker 1: That's just facts. Yeah. Absolutely, how did you make that leap?
Speaker 1: Like you just said earlier, I'm just connecting the dots
Speaker 1: you were, like, I was never around anyone who's an entrepreneur,
Speaker 1: had their own business. Everyone worked a job. Yeah, how
Speaker 1: did you accident?
Speaker 3: Jay? Sheeddy?
Speaker 2: Okay, it was a total accident, because you know, I
Speaker 2: never set out to start my own company. I was
Speaker 2: frustrated that I wasn't being paid enough where I worked,
Speaker 2: and then was like, all right, well if you don't
Speaker 2: like that, then you're going to have to do something else.
Speaker 2: But I was also acutely aware that no one was
Speaker 2: going to come and hand me a company on a
Speaker 2: play like it's this company to run. You pass them
Speaker 2: with no experience and you know, you kind of jumped
Speaker 2: up twenty four year old, and so I was very
Speaker 2: like acutely aware that I'd have to do it myself.
Speaker 2: And that's where it came from. Like, you know, I'd
Speaker 2: love to say that I had this like great idea
Speaker 2: and this great ambition, but it came out of like
Speaker 2: frustration and not being paid enough and feeling like I
Speaker 2: wasn't getting the value back that I put in.
Speaker 1: That's the honest answer. Yeah, no, And I think that's
Speaker 1: very relatable. I think most people are in positions like that,
Speaker 1: but that doesn't lead to the courage, yes to do it,
Speaker 1: to do it because we feel like, well, what if
Speaker 1: it doesn't work? And say what you know, and all
Speaker 1: those kind of things that come up because we're scared.
Speaker 1: Even for me, Like I remember I had a steady
Speaker 1: job and I was this is after I'd left the monastery,
Speaker 1: had come back home, I'd finally found a steady job.
Speaker 1: I was dating such a.
Speaker 2: Good sentence after I left the monastery, isn't it good?
Speaker 2: It's so after I left the monastery, I.
Speaker 1: Was just starting to give context and then this is
Speaker 1: this is the British em like, really, I love it.
Speaker 1: I love it.
Speaker 2: I don't have a sentence like that, and I want one.
Speaker 2: I might just take it after I out.
Speaker 1: You've got to be You've got You've got plenty. But no.
Speaker 1: The so I was in the steady job and it
Speaker 1: was like I was dating my now wife and I
Speaker 1: remember going, this is not working for me. And I
Speaker 1: wasn't killing it and I wasn't doing badly. I was,
Speaker 1: I was doing all right, but I just knew it
Speaker 1: wasn't my place. And I remember I probably spent two
Speaker 1: years there feeling that way totally. You kind of just
Speaker 1: one you just thinking about it, reflecting on it. You're like,
Speaker 1: what do I do? What if it doesn't work? And
Speaker 1: so walk us through that a little bit because I
Speaker 1: think a lot of our listeners may actually be feeling
Speaker 1: that way. A lot of our audience is actually listening going,
Speaker 1: you know what, I'd love to I'd love to forget
Speaker 1: doing what Emma's done now. I just love to gal
Speaker 1: where I am now, because you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: I think The truth of it was that I've never
Speaker 2: been that scared of failing, right, and for me, at
Speaker 2: that time in my life, I was making a small
Speaker 2: amount of money. It's fair to say that I didn't
Speaker 2: have any you know, no one was relying on me
Speaker 2: to pay when I had a tiny, tiny little I
Speaker 2: lived in like a high rise in East London with
Speaker 2: no front door and a gate on the door, no oven,
Speaker 2: just a microwave, no fridge. I put my milk on
Speaker 2: the balcony just to paint the picture of like where
Speaker 2: I was at that time in my life. It was rough,
Speaker 2: and honestly, what I thought is that how could I lose?
Speaker 2: Like at this point, I could always go and get
Speaker 2: another similarly not inspiring job, And so that idea of
Speaker 2: like fear of not failing was really key. But I
Speaker 2: also was really I've always been very honest with myself,
Speaker 2: Like you know, everybody has a voice in their head,
Speaker 2: and some people have a voice that like chats them up,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like I do. But I also have
Speaker 2: that voice that's like, Emma, like know what you don't know?
Speaker 2: They don't be too silly in this situation. So I
Speaker 2: think that I really in that instance where I decided like,
Speaker 2: let's get out of this job and try to go
Speaker 2: and do something else. It was enough understanding of it
Speaker 2: wasn't that good where I was. If it really didn't
Speaker 2: work out, I could always get back into something like that.
Speaker 2: But also that thing that just says what happens if
Speaker 2: you don't do it, you know, Like for me, I
Speaker 2: was miserable and I really saw a better life for myself,
Speaker 2: and I was like, I will just regret this when
Speaker 2: I'm thirty five, for example, And so it was really
Speaker 2: about just going like, you know, no one's going to
Speaker 2: take a chance on me. I have to take the
Speaker 2: chance on me, and then maybe someone else will be
Speaker 2: inspired to take a chance at me, which is ultimately
Speaker 2: what happened. I left that role, I got employed in
Speaker 2: another job, and then when I got into that job,
Speaker 2: my now husband and business partner at that time they
Speaker 2: kind of saw me and they were like, well, this
Speaker 2: girl's like kind of good, she has something, And they
Speaker 2: ended up being my first investors when I was twenty
Speaker 2: five years old.
Speaker 1: That's incredible, which was.
Speaker 2: Crazy, which to me even at the time it felt crazy,
Speaker 2: and I remember questioning I was like, why would anyone
Speaker 2: invest me? In, and then I thought, now, of course
Speaker 2: i'd invested me, who are you going to invest in?
Speaker 2: Like you might as well I'm as good as anybody
Speaker 2: else out there. And that's when that thing started ticking in.
Speaker 2: So I think, sometimes you've just got to not be
Speaker 2: too afraid to lose. And you know, the truth is, Jay,
Speaker 2: I have lost and failed more times than I've succeeded. Right,
Speaker 2: we don't talk about that. That's not in the articles.
Speaker 2: I don't post that on Instagram. But that's just the fact,
Speaker 2: Like I've made so many mistakes before I got here
Speaker 2: and had three very successful companies. I had a dog
Speaker 2: an agency that I opened here in a very successful
Speaker 2: business that was thriving in London and thriving in New York,
Speaker 2: and I opened an office in LA and I embarrassed myself.
Speaker 2: I completely let the you know, I let the company down,
Speaker 2: and let the ball down and let the staff down.
Speaker 2: I underinvested, I did all of the classic mistakes. And
Speaker 2: you know, at the time, I felt like it was
Speaker 2: the end of like my company and my career, but
Speaker 2: it wasn't.
Speaker 3: It was just a failure.
Speaker 2: I've had lots of things like that happened, lots of
Speaker 2: you know, public embarrassments and things that didn't work out,
Speaker 2: and it's you know, it sounds like such an obvious thing,
Speaker 2: but it's like, well, how do you recover from that?
Speaker 2: And so for me, it's like always been this thing
Speaker 2: of like, all right, well I've dust myself off, I've
Speaker 2: survived worse, you know, and I think a lot of.
Speaker 3: That comes from my upbringing.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like you see a lot of stuff go down
Speaker 2: and you can get through things. Yeah, I think I'm
Speaker 2: pretty good at getting through things.
Speaker 1: And this is that quincy moment where I'm like, I
Speaker 1: didn't even know. Yeah, it's amazing. It's just like you
Speaker 1: just you know you. It's so fascinating how quickly we are.
Speaker 1: It's so fascinating how quickly we point out people's faults
Speaker 1: and then forget about them. And that happens so far because.
Speaker 2: It's not as fun as story, right, people want at
Speaker 2: the end of the day. I believe in, you know,
Speaker 2: the goodness of humans. We default want good stuff for
Speaker 2: each other, and we want to see each other when
Speaker 2: and people are very happy to celebrate alongside you. You're
Speaker 2: much more concerned about your failures. You're much more concerned
Speaker 2: about your fears than anybody else out there, and I
Speaker 2: think every now and again I kind of just have
Speaker 2: to tune myself back into to that piece of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it sounds like what I really like is
Speaker 1: that you've got this ability. And I've been watching the
Speaker 1: whole interview, and it's like you've got this ability to
Speaker 1: know what the different voices in your head are. Yes,
Speaker 1: you're very clear about like this is the one that's
Speaker 1: being real, this is the ego, this is giving me
Speaker 1: the hype that I need right now, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2: But also you know, I know their voices. I know
Speaker 2: they're not me, and I always knew that because I
Speaker 2: have an ability, Like my whole superpower in life is
Speaker 2: about being able to turn it on and off. And
Speaker 2: so I am acutely aware that those are just things
Speaker 2: and that I have at my disposal, and sometimes they
Speaker 2: work to my advantage and sometimes they work to my disadvantage.
Speaker 2: But I don't think that it's me. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2: Like it's like I know who I am, and like
Speaker 2: it ain't all of that, it's not the chatter, none
Speaker 2: of it. It's just I'm something else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I mean, that's an incredible distinction to know
Speaker 1: and have and build. Did that come from? Did you
Speaker 1: read something? Did you learn something? Was it just you
Speaker 1: started listening to yourself. Did you spend a lot of
Speaker 1: time alone. I'm intrigued as to what you did to
Speaker 1: gain that skill, because it's a skill and you're obviously
Speaker 1: aware of it, you know.
Speaker 2: I think I'm just that like Oprah generation.
Speaker 1: Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: You come home every day from school. Oprah was on
Speaker 2: the TV telling you to be grateful with you What
Speaker 2: do I have to be grateful for? Have you see
Speaker 2: my house? Have you see my trainers? I need new shoes,
Speaker 2: like you know. And it's like I didn't get it then,
Speaker 2: but I started to believe it and I started to read.
Speaker 3: You know, I am an avid reader.
Speaker 2: I read so much everything and always have since I
Speaker 2: was thirteen. And again it was that means of escapism,
Speaker 2: and so I started reading things like you know, the
Speaker 2: Power of Now or like you know, like all of
Speaker 2: these things that like conversations with God, I remember, you know,
Speaker 2: It's like and I was like, just blew my mind
Speaker 2: because I didn't know anybody that thought like that, and
Speaker 2: so maybe I just absorbed it. A couple of books yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, and it went in like and it made
Speaker 2: sense to me.
Speaker 1: No, it's as simple as that, and the same generation,
Speaker 1: Like I grew up in the same way, And it's
Speaker 1: so true, how like these tiny little messages just start
Speaker 1: connecting dots and that's kind of what kids are built
Speaker 1: on and young people are built on. It isn't you
Speaker 1: could have heard the same thing at school every day,
Speaker 1: but because it wasn't simplified and easy and digestible one hundred,
Speaker 1: you don't remember it, but you remember the random TV
Speaker 1: show you watched in the back exactly. Yeah, that's amazing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love I love witnessing it in an interview with
Speaker 1: someone where you're like, Wow, this person's away and I
Speaker 1: want to talk more about Hopefully this is what you
Speaker 1: don't get to talk about as much or maybe, like
Speaker 1: you're saying, like men get asked this stuff and maybe
Speaker 1: women don't. I'm intrigued. But like we were talking earlier,
Speaker 1: you're a brand marketing genius. Like you're super attentive, aware, conscious,
Speaker 1: You have this ability to think about products and brand
Speaker 1: in a different way. How do you select problems to solve?
Speaker 1: How do you choose which problems you want to work
Speaker 1: on and then make sure that you build something that
Speaker 1: actually solves that problem.
Speaker 2: I think about it in the sense of myself. I
Speaker 2: think it would be very difficult for me. And I'm
Speaker 2: not saying other people can't do it, but to do
Speaker 2: things that you can't relate to, right, So I always
Speaker 2: start with the idea that if it's a problem for me,
Speaker 2: likelihood is it's a problem for other people like me,
Speaker 2: whether that be other young women or other women in
Speaker 2: the middle of America. But it's like the starting point.
Speaker 2: It's always what do I find problematic? And then I
Speaker 2: think the lens and the kind of red thread that
Speaker 2: goes through all of my companies is this idea that
Speaker 2: And again I hate saying it because in the last
Speaker 2: kind of five years it's almost become like this sort
Speaker 2: of buzzword.
Speaker 3: But when we.
Speaker 2: Think about inclusivity and business and what that actually means,
Speaker 2: including and thinking about the most amount of people possible.
Speaker 2: When I started Good American, it was actually a reaction
Speaker 2: to this idea that so many women, women of color,
Speaker 2: plus size women as just completely left out of the
Speaker 2: fashion conversation and why is there dollar any less valuable
Speaker 2: than anybody else's? And so I had worked in marketing
Speaker 2: for all of these years. For fifteen years, I grew
Speaker 2: this incredible agency, and I'd done castings and you know,
Speaker 2: put projects and collaborations together for the biggest and best
Speaker 2: brands in the whole world. And I'd been part of
Speaker 2: actually falsifying an image of inclusivity.
Speaker 3: You know.
Speaker 2: It's like you have a group cars, you need a
Speaker 2: black girl and an Asian girl and then this and
Speaker 2: and actually when you thought about the product and when
Speaker 2: you thought about the senior management of those companies, it
Speaker 2: looked nothing like that, right. It just the product didn't
Speaker 2: work for anyone over a certain size, and the boardrooms
Speaker 2: were just all made up of typically like white men
Speaker 2: making the decisions usually for women. And I just sort
Speaker 2: of thought to myself, there must be a better way
Speaker 2: to start a company. But it came from problem solving
Speaker 2: for myself. And I go back to this idea of like,
Speaker 2: you know, when you think about businesses, it makes more
Speaker 2: sense that they would be geared towards serving more people.
Speaker 2: That's just good business, right. Forget d E and I
Speaker 2: forget like, you know, this idea of diversity, equity, inclusion
Speaker 2: doing some being something that companies need to do now.
Speaker 2: It's just good business. And when I talk about it,
Speaker 2: this idea of inclusivity and diversity being a superpower in business,
Speaker 2: it's not something that I just said, it's something that
Speaker 2: I do. That's where the process actually starts. I'm thinking
Speaker 2: about how can I best serve customers the most amount
Speaker 2: of people. And then when there's an acknowledgment of someone
Speaker 2: who isn't usually acknowledged, of course it goes without saying that.
Speaker 2: Suddenly they feel seen, they feel heard, and they're like,
Speaker 2: I'm going with this girl, I'm going with this brand
Speaker 2: because it's the first time anyone's spoken directly to them.
Speaker 2: And I think that it's such an underthought about part
Speaker 2: of business. You know, people usually bolt it on at
Speaker 2: the end, and I'm like, no, no, no, no, it's right
Speaker 2: where you start. It's in the inception of those products.
Speaker 2: It's in making thirty two sizes, it's in doing nine
Speaker 2: different shades. It's in the very very beginnings of what
Speaker 2: you're creating, and then you can dress it up and
Speaker 2: make it look nice and put the right kind of
Speaker 2: branding on it. But actually it starts way earlier than that,
Speaker 2: and so I actually think about customers in a way
Speaker 2: that I think most people don't.
Speaker 1: Where did you not learn that? But where did you
Speaker 1: learn to look to understand that? Obviously it started with yourself,
Speaker 1: But I'm like, why didn't people do that before? Because,
Speaker 1: like you just said, it's better business, it's better financially,
Speaker 1: it makes more sense, it makes more people happy. What
Speaker 1: do you think blocks companies?
Speaker 2: It just comes from where decisions are being made, right,
Speaker 2: because it's like you don't know what you don't know.
Speaker 2: And I've sat in enough rooms trying to pitch enough
Speaker 2: businesses to a group of people that aren't my end audience,
Speaker 2: and I have actually said in meetings before, maybe you
Speaker 2: should phone your wife or daughter, like literally like phone
Speaker 2: them because you don't understand this because it's not for you,
Speaker 2: you know. And so I think that decisions are made
Speaker 2: in such an abstract way in most companies. And you
Speaker 2: know you see this when you know companies make mistakes, right,
Speaker 2: there were seen a lot of like big fashion brands
Speaker 2: and big consumer brands make mistakes that have seemingly kind
Speaker 2: of come across as like insensitive, racist, completely misogynistic. That's
Speaker 2: just where a decision is made. A company isn't inherently racist,
Speaker 2: like the whole company. It's just a decision making process
Speaker 2: is flawed. Are you there's not enough people in the
Speaker 2: room of a different background to'say, hey, perhaps put the
Speaker 2: T shirt on the other kid, like then it won't
Speaker 2: be an issue. So I think that this just comes
Speaker 2: from the idea of like, where are the decisions made
Speaker 2: in that company and who's making the decisions? And I
Speaker 2: know that the more people you bring around to table
Speaker 2: from different backgrounds. We're not just talking about race here,
Speaker 2: we're talking about age, education, the full gambit, like, the
Speaker 2: better the company will be.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that is such great. I love what you just
Speaker 1: said about asking someone to call their partner or their
Speaker 1: daughter or son or whatever it may be, because you're
Speaker 1: so right, Like I think so many people sit in
Speaker 1: meetings and they're looking around, going these people don't know
Speaker 1: what they're talking about, or like they just don't understand totally.
Speaker 1: How have you maintained Like I guess the question is
Speaker 1: how many of those meetings have did you have to
Speaker 1: sit in until you felt like I'm just going to
Speaker 1: do this or we're just going to figure it out,
Speaker 1: or did you look for someone who agreed with you
Speaker 1: and had your values and did the research or was
Speaker 1: it kind of like we're just going to build it ourselves,
Speaker 1: Like give us a bit of that, because I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people.
Speaker 2: Know, you know, it's so interesting. I'm at that point
Speaker 2: in my career now where I don't sit in a
Speaker 2: lot of meetings. Now they pitched me, which is lovely
Speaker 2: the I'm like, come over here and I'll let you
Speaker 2: know if you can come in. But in the early days,
Speaker 2: you know, I think that I sat in a lot
Speaker 2: of situations feeling like, you know, the great thing is,
Speaker 2: I never doubted myself or any of those ideas.
Speaker 3: I just thought I hadn't found the right people yet.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit like, you know, I'm happy to
Speaker 2: kiss a lot of frogs, and I always have been,
Speaker 2: because again, I don't think it should be so easy
Speaker 2: when you're doing something that is new and without so
Speaker 2: much definition and unproven, like it's supposed to be hard.
Speaker 2: And again it's like anything, I never let it get
Speaker 2: to me. I just was like, poor poor chicken. He
Speaker 2: doesn't get it yet, and he will do and he
Speaker 2: will kick himself. You know, it's fine, you know, it's
Speaker 2: just it's part of it. And I don't mean that
Speaker 2: in a smug way, but I never I never doubted
Speaker 2: what I was doing. I was very very clear, especially
Speaker 2: when we started Good America, and I was like, this
Speaker 2: thing people don't understand, and we'll just get them to
Speaker 2: understand it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, yeah, no. And I think that's such a
Speaker 1: great mindset to have and do not have the smugness
Speaker 1: or bitterness because exactly that person just wasn't in the
Speaker 1: right space. You don't know what you don't know totally.
Speaker 1: It's totally cool. I feel like that all the time.
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm trying to find the people who want
Speaker 1: to be part of this story. And if they don't
Speaker 1: want to be a part of this story, that's totally cool,
Speaker 1: of course.
Speaker 2: Because they won't be great partners to you down the line. Right,
Speaker 2: It's like you either get it and you want to
Speaker 2: be part of it, and you are happy to know
Speaker 2: that you don't know it all right, because it's about
Speaker 2: new space. It's like if we were all doing the
Speaker 2: same thing and trying to set up the same companies,
Speaker 2: we'd never find the skims exactly.
Speaker 3: You know, It's like you'd never land on it.
Speaker 2: You'd be like, that's too complicated, that's not how we
Speaker 2: do things, and you'd skip over the great stuff.
Speaker 1: How have you managed to continue to stay hungry and
Speaker 1: also stay innovative when things are good? Like before you
Speaker 1: talking about I didn't like my job, but wanted to
Speaker 1: get out, you know, milk was outdoors, I was. You know,
Speaker 1: like there's a there's a pain that pushes you in
Speaker 1: a better direction. I'm not saying you don't have pain anymore.
Speaker 1: Of course there's stresses.
Speaker 3: I don't have that much pain. I have daily dramas,
Speaker 3: but the pain has gone. You know what it is?
Speaker 3: You are fueled every day by.
Speaker 2: A piece of it is competition, right, It's like I
Speaker 2: look at everything. There is no one who knows more
Speaker 2: about jeans and nickers than I do. I look at
Speaker 2: every competitor I go out in the market. I see it.
Speaker 2: I know, like the promotional cadence. I know everything everybody
Speaker 2: else is doing. And I think that that natural inquisitiveness
Speaker 2: is part of what keeps me good. But at the
Speaker 2: end of the day, it's like I just want to win,
Speaker 2: you know. So it's like I don't feel satisfied. And
Speaker 2: also it's like, how could you It's just been a
Speaker 2: couple of years. There's loads of people that had successes
Speaker 2: for six and for three years. I don't think that's
Speaker 2: the end goal. The end goal is to build like
Speaker 2: you know, generational or generationally defining businesses, and that doesn't
Speaker 2: happen quickly. And also I'm not stupid enough to think
Speaker 2: like or to let a few years' success get to me.
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people that had a few years success.
Speaker 1: Do you know?
Speaker 3: That's not the end game.
Speaker 2: And so I think about now, it's about, you know,
Speaker 2: really taking the foundations of what we've felt, not sacrificing
Speaker 2: any of your principles, and still being able to grow
Speaker 2: and to thrive and to higher people.
Speaker 1: But that gets more and more difficult the bigger you get.
Speaker 2: Right, there's one thing saying oh, we're going to do
Speaker 2: business this way, when there are ten of you and
Speaker 2: you're doing a million dollars, it's very very different all
Speaker 2: these years in because there's no model, there's nothing that
Speaker 2: you can go out and emulate. We are making it
Speaker 2: up as we're going along.
Speaker 1: Yeah, how do you how do you define winning now? Like?
Speaker 1: Is that how you define winning? You know?
Speaker 2: I define winning now by doing things that excite me, Like,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like we just launched this insane push
Speaker 2: up bra at Skims and everyone's talking about it. It's
Speaker 2: all over the place, and you know, like that's exciting
Speaker 2: to me because like some one of my girls in
Speaker 2: England will call me and be like, oh my god.
Speaker 3: I need to get that bra.
Speaker 2: You know, I love that, and I still get a
Speaker 2: thrill from you know, It's like I love what I do,
Speaker 2: Like I genuinely really love it, and I just want
Speaker 2: to keep getting better at it. And for me, it
Speaker 2: comes in so many different ways. It's like I love
Speaker 2: giving people opportunities. I love the hiring part of it
Speaker 2: and getting to work with all different people, and I
Speaker 2: think that those things for me feel really successful. But
Speaker 2: if you to ask me just to like boil it down,
Speaker 2: it would be like to continue the growth and what
Speaker 2: we're doing without sacrificing the principles that we set the
Speaker 2: companies up with.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't want to.
Speaker 2: Dial it down because we're you know, reaching some kind
Speaker 2: of like critical mass.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, how do you You know we were talking
Speaker 1: about that. You have daily dramas you said.
Speaker 3: Not pains.
Speaker 2: No, nobody talks to me when things are going well.
Speaker 2: My life is just a series of problems, you know,
Speaker 2: from the minute I wake up to you know, the
Speaker 2: minute I go to bed, Like that's just a fact.
Speaker 2: The stress level is unbelievable. And I do think that
Speaker 2: that's important because you wouldn't know that looking at me
Speaker 2: or maybe just speaking to me. But you know, my
Speaker 2: job is not all you know, trying different fabrics out
Speaker 2: and hanging around with models that that's just not what
Speaker 2: I do exactly.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what what do you find to be the most
Speaker 1: stressful thing about building a business and what do you
Speaker 1: do in order to deal with it?
Speaker 2: I think the most stressful thing is probably the expectations,
Speaker 2: right that that comes from the outside. I honestly believe
Speaker 2: you're only as good as your last launch. I never
Speaker 2: ever drink the kool aid ever, and I think that,
Speaker 2: you know, I happen to work in extremely high profile
Speaker 2: businesses where everything that we do is scrutinized, and with
Speaker 2: that comes a level of stress. It comes back to
Speaker 2: that thing of being very ritualistic. I, you know, am
Speaker 2: militant about the things that work for me. You know,
Speaker 2: I suffer with migrains, I get super you know, I
Speaker 2: carry stress like in my body and so it's like
Speaker 2: I get up very early, I wake up, I work out,
Speaker 2: I meditate. I make sure I have to be up
Speaker 2: before my children are up because I need like quiet time,
Speaker 2: I need time to like focus. I'm like religiously grateful,
Speaker 2: like I have trained myself to focus on the great
Speaker 2: stuff in my life because I feel like there is
Speaker 2: so much noise, you know, whether I like it or not,
Speaker 2: And so I could be overwhelmed every day in the
Speaker 2: things that are going on around me.
Speaker 3: And at the end of it, I'm like.
Speaker 2: Looking up, going wow, the ceiling in my bedroom, Like
Speaker 2: how could you even have a sick I could never
Speaker 2: imagine that such a beautiful ceiling ever. You know, It's
Speaker 2: like I am someone who truly stops to smell the roses,
Speaker 2: Like quite literally, I can find good, happiness, joy in anything,
Speaker 2: and I really make it a point and a priority
Speaker 2: to do that every day. And even as I have
Speaker 2: my tea, you know, it's like I have special tea
Speaker 2: from Japan and I have a special pop that I
Speaker 2: put it in and I just like taste it and
Speaker 2: every day it's like I'm tasting it for the first time.
Speaker 2: But if I didn't do those things, I would lose
Speaker 2: my mind, you know, I would lose my mind, and
Speaker 2: so I think I've just trained myself to like enjoy
Speaker 2: the kind of the rituals and the small things and
Speaker 2: be hyper grateful because there is no difference between me
Speaker 2: and all of those kids that I went to school
Speaker 2: with in East London, and I should be so lucky.
Speaker 2: It's like we're here in the sunshine overlook, in the
Speaker 2: whole of LA I'm chatting to you. I'm going to
Speaker 2: go into my office where I'm the boss, and people
Speaker 2: are going to feel me chatting about stuff like I
Speaker 2: don't have anything to complain about.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I bet And from what I've learned today,
Speaker 1: you were like that even when the milk.
Speaker 3: Was outside, I was like, at least I have a balcony.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I don't have a fridge, but I have a balcony.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because because if it wasn't there, then it wouldn't
Speaker 1: be there. Now. If you went on a walk with
Speaker 1: little Emma as a memory, you like held hands and
Speaker 1: you went on a little walk with it, what do
Speaker 1: you think she'd say to you?
Speaker 3: I think she'd say, well done, love you did it?
Speaker 3: Keep going? Keep going?
Speaker 1: Yeah? I think so what would you say back oday?
Speaker 2: I am I'm really walking forward now?
Speaker 1: Stopting pressure on me.
Speaker 2: I always sit here and I think, oh my goodness,
Speaker 2: I'm so proud of myself. But honestly, Jay, when I
Speaker 2: think about what that means for me now and the
Speaker 2: level of responsibility that I feel, that is the thing
Speaker 2: that really fuels me today, because when I do something,
Speaker 2: I feel a weight and an expectation a group of
Speaker 2: people that have been historically left out and marginalized from
Speaker 2: a lot of these conversations and a lot of these opportunities.
Speaker 2: And there is this huge sense of responsibility that I
Speaker 2: have for women, especially sort of young black women and
Speaker 2: minority women and kids that just grew up poor anywhere.
Speaker 2: I think about all that stuff every single day, and
Speaker 2: I think that real success for me will be when
Speaker 2: I am able to really pull what I've got and
Speaker 2: what it is that I strive for and continue to
Speaker 2: achieve and has that affect a lot more people. And
Speaker 2: I do that in ways, you know, like through my
Speaker 2: chairmanship of the fifteen Percent Pledge. That's been like a
Speaker 2: huge undertaking an amazing amount of work that I have
Speaker 2: been able to do. But for me, it's like that
Speaker 2: is only kind of scratching the surface. And I think
Speaker 2: more and more of my work will be in how
Speaker 2: can I help so many more people that are like me,
Speaker 2: you know, get out of their circumstances and be able
Speaker 2: to contribute more, Because it just is mesmerizing to me
Speaker 2: that I've been able to go so far and it
Speaker 2: ain't because I'm something special. It's because there were a
Speaker 2: series of circumstances and then enough kind of gritin determination
Speaker 2: that I was able to do it. And so it's like,
Speaker 2: how do you put other people into the same circumstances
Speaker 2: so that if they have the will, that they can
Speaker 2: do it too?
Speaker 1: And so that's where I'm fixated right now. Was one
Speaker 1: of your favorite success stories from that or like a
Speaker 1: memory or story from that?
Speaker 2: Well, Well, you know, it's so funny because it happens
Speaker 2: again in the in the smallest ways, right It's like
Speaker 2: I'll have a chat. I get hundreds of people reach
Speaker 2: out to me to say, listen, I'm starting a business.
Speaker 2: I you know, I'm selling ten thousand dollars a month
Speaker 2: in this COVID brand. And it's like I'll jump on
Speaker 2: the phone and I'll give someone some advice. Like, you know,
Speaker 2: I had a girl a couple of years ago. She
Speaker 2: was like, I think I'm going to get into Selfridges
Speaker 2: and I want to know how to do that, how
Speaker 2: to I structure the contract. Anyway, fast forward two years later,
Speaker 2: I do my first ever ask me anything because my
Speaker 2: team pressured me into it. I'm like, social, it's just
Speaker 2: not my bag. But anyway, so I do the first
Speaker 2: ask me anything, and all the girls are asking me
Speaker 2: the same questions.
Speaker 3: Right, how do you start a business? How do you sy?
Speaker 3: I did it?
Speaker 1: And this girl comes up and then shehes, I just
Speaker 1: want to let.
Speaker 2: You know that I now do, however, many tens of
Speaker 2: thousands a week at Selfridges, and it was all because
Speaker 2: you helped me walk through that contract and I took
Speaker 2: your advice and I, you know, I stuck to the
Speaker 2: distribution plan and did it and I was like, oh
Speaker 2: my god, you know. And so it's always those tiny
Speaker 2: things for me. And again, that's just about giving someone
Speaker 2: your time. So I'm really trying to think thoughtfully about
Speaker 2: how I can do more of that in a a
Speaker 2: more systematic and a bigger way, because sadly I can't
Speaker 2: answer every phone call or every DM what comes to Yeah.
Speaker 1: What are you talking about? That's so beautiful? And I
Speaker 1: think that that component is such a big part of
Speaker 1: happiness and success is because you're so right, Like no
Speaker 1: one who's got the top is any more special. Just
Speaker 1: going back to what your mum said at the beginning,
Speaker 1: and as soon as you start thinking it, or people
Speaker 1: also start thinking it that oh, yeah, that person's there
Speaker 1: because they're faster, smart, better, or when we do the opposite,
Speaker 1: when we go they don't deserve to be there exactly,
Speaker 1: both of those. Just take it away, and I look
Speaker 1: at your journey and I'm so I really admire the
Speaker 1: way you live and think, like it's really it's such
Speaker 1: a wonderful mindset and it's such a strong You've been
Speaker 1: able to craft something that's so resilient and you can
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's so what you've been able to build.
Speaker 1: And I'm talking about almost like if we were able
Speaker 1: to physically look at your mindset. It's so resilient because
Speaker 1: I can hear as we've approached it from so many
Speaker 1: different points of view. It's like you have such a
Speaker 1: clear philosophy on how you live, who you are, what matters,
Speaker 1: what doesn't matter. I look at that clarity when I
Speaker 1: see you as like that's the reason you are who
Speaker 1: you are and where you are. It's because you're just
Speaker 1: so clear, and I feel like, no matter what would
Speaker 1: happen either way, it's like, that is what you're betting on,
Speaker 1: and that's what you've been building and focused on.
Speaker 3: I think so, yeah, I think, so, someone write that down.
Speaker 1: I really mean it. I really mean it.
Speaker 2: So kind, it's so kind. I love that you say that.
Speaker 2: It makes me. It makes me so happy because you
Speaker 2: never think about yourself in such clear terms like that, right,
Speaker 2: It never you are who you are in so many ways.
Speaker 2: You know, when I see that with my own kids,
Speaker 2: they're like four people that I think, well, you got
Speaker 2: exactly the same upbringing. We all live in the same house,
Speaker 2: I don't do one thing different, and yet they are
Speaker 2: just these like four tiny individuals.
Speaker 3: And it's six months.
Speaker 2: It's like, you know exactly what kind of kids you've got,
Speaker 2: Like you know if this kid is like super anxious,
Speaker 2: if this kid's super obnoxious, you know exactly who they are.
Speaker 2: I'm sure there's lots of things and changes coming in
Speaker 2: their life, but so much of it is just in you, right,
Speaker 2: and you know, and then you layer circumstances onto that,
Speaker 2: and you know what you're capable of, what you can
Speaker 2: and can't affect and what you should be doing, And
Speaker 2: so I always look at it. It's like I was
Speaker 2: living like a very nice, very privileged life in England
Speaker 2: and I moved here specifically for work, and it's been
Speaker 2: wonderful for work, but in so many other facets of
Speaker 2: my life, being in LA has been an eye opener
Speaker 2: and it's actually fueled me in a way that I
Speaker 2: really never expected. And I always think, you know, if
Speaker 2: you elevate your health, you elevate your life. It's like
Speaker 2: if you elevate your thinking, you elevate you know what
Speaker 2: your capabilities are. And so for me, it's just been
Speaker 2: wonderful and an amazing moment to be here because I've
Speaker 2: been able to elevate so many things that I do,
Speaker 2: and I think that that should only end up in
Speaker 2: like a bunch of other people being able to benefit
Speaker 2: from that.
Speaker 1: Absolutely well said write that down printed? Oh that was yeah,
Speaker 1: I no, absolutely, Like, I think it's incredible. How you know,
Speaker 1: I think a lot of people label LA as Hollywood
Speaker 1: and think of it as just that. Yeah, but it's
Speaker 1: like I feel the same way as you, like, moving here,
Speaker 1: like my eyes have opened up to so many more
Speaker 1: things that are really valuable, important, insightful, and met people
Speaker 1: who are doing incredible things. You know what you just
Speaker 1: said now of like opening the door and trying to
Speaker 1: break down. We had, you know, just a few months ago,
Speaker 1: we had Lewis Hamilton here talking about forty four and
Speaker 1: talking about how he's trying to help, you know, trying
Speaker 1: to help people of color get into the world of
Speaker 1: Formula one, which is a normal which him and his
Speaker 1: father were able to do. Like you start seeing that
Speaker 1: happen across fashion, sports business, and that's so incredible because
Speaker 1: you start thinking about all those little Emmas and little
Speaker 1: Lewis's and everyone else out there totally who is just
Speaker 1: trying to figure out whether they have a shot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they do. Yeah, Emma. We we end every episode
Speaker 1: with the final five, which we sit down and do
Speaker 1: as a fast five, which means every answer has to
Speaker 1: be one word to one sentence maximum.
Speaker 3: One word to one sentence. All right.
Speaker 1: I always ruin it because I get intrigued, So all right, okay,
Speaker 1: so em agree, these are your final five. The first
Speaker 1: question is what is the best advice you've ever heard
Speaker 1: or received.
Speaker 2: I wish that I could make this sound as powerful
Speaker 2: as it was for me. It's the first thing to say,
Speaker 2: but it's a good one. It was to make a
Speaker 2: decision and move on, because you can be so stifled
Speaker 2: by your decisions, and when you are just stuck, it
Speaker 2: just does so many other things to you. And so
Speaker 2: I think it served me really well in so many ways.
Speaker 2: I used to think about it just for business, and
Speaker 2: now I don't. I think it's make a decision and
Speaker 2: move on.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I always say to people, stop trying to
Speaker 1: make the right decision. Just make a decision and then
Speaker 1: make it right.
Speaker 3: Totally saying you can go back, you can go back afterwards.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that. That's great. We've never had that that.
Speaker 1: Question number two, what is the worst advice you've ever
Speaker 1: heard or received?
Speaker 3: Stay in your lane?
Speaker 1: What was the lane?
Speaker 2: I don't know, but someone was trying to stifle me,
Speaker 2: and lucky enough, I listened to my little emma inside
Speaker 2: and gave her a big old bit.
Speaker 3: I never stay in your lane.
Speaker 2: But it's interesting because I think all the growth in
Speaker 2: my life has come when I have stepped outside of
Speaker 2: whatever lane I was in at that time, and so
Speaker 2: it's useless advice absolutely.
Speaker 1: Question number three, how would someone who doesn't know you
Speaker 1: that well describe you in three words. I wish if
Speaker 1: you're listening to this, you just missed out on the
Speaker 1: best facial expansions. You need to go to YouTube right now.
Speaker 2: Always such a worry. I mean, goodness, me, the things
Speaker 2: I've been called. How would someone describe me? I think
Speaker 2: they would describe me as like kind, I'm a kind person, ambitious,
Speaker 2: and like not to be messed around with?
Speaker 1: Got it? I like it? I like the third run
Speaker 1: not to mess around?
Speaker 2: Can think about the one. I think that's what people
Speaker 2: think about me. They're like tough, Yeah, tough, tough, kind
Speaker 2: but tough, ambitious.
Speaker 1: Question before, how would someone who knows you very deeply
Speaker 1: describe you in three words?
Speaker 2: Sensitive, very thoughtful, and tough.
Speaker 1: That's brilliant. We need to get to verify.
Speaker 3: To verify for sure you go tough to love it
Speaker 3: and them.
Speaker 1: Your final question fifth to final question, If you could
Speaker 1: create one law that everyone in the world had to follow,
Speaker 1: what would it be?
Speaker 2: You know, very specifically for the time we're in right now,
Speaker 2: it would be to lead with kindness nothing else.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we need it in every little interaction.
Speaker 3: In everything.
Speaker 2: It's so powerful and it's what I teach my kids,
Speaker 2: you know, it's like, just be kind, Like it doesn't
Speaker 2: take much and it goes so unbelievably far, you know.
Speaker 2: And when I say that about myself being kind, it's
Speaker 2: like that is something that I think about every single day,
Speaker 2: Like how am I treating people?
Speaker 3: What do people get from me?
Speaker 2: And I'm talking about everyone, you know, like everyone, It's
Speaker 2: just a fact.
Speaker 1: Just be kind and agreed. Thank you for coming on
Speaker 1: on Perverse. This was incredible. Everyone has been listening and
Speaker 1: watching wherever you are, whether you're walking your dog, whether
Speaker 1: you're at the gym, whether you're driving to or from work,
Speaker 1: whether you're listening with your friends. I want you to
Speaker 1: know that. Please go and tag me and Emma in
Speaker 1: the moment that stood out to you. Maybe there's a quote,
Speaker 1: Maybe there was so much wisdom sprinkled across this entire episode.
Speaker 1: I hope that you find the ones that resonate with you.
Speaker 1: I hope that this helps you make a shift in
Speaker 1: your career. I hope this helps you make a shift
Speaker 1: in your mindset about how you're trying to balance what's
Speaker 1: going on in your world. I hope this helps you
Speaker 1: think differently about the choices and decisions you're about to make.
Speaker 1: Please please please tag me and Emma across social media
Speaker 1: to let us know what stood out to you. Please
Speaker 1: show a ton of love, Emma, thank you for doing this,
Speaker 1: Thank you for opening up. Thank you for being so
Speaker 1: real and wonderful to spend this much time with.
Speaker 2: Oh, it's been a pleasure. I've loved every second. I'm
Speaker 2: so grateful to you. Thank you too, Jack, Thank you
Speaker 2: so good to see.
Speaker 1: Thank you. If you love this episode, you will also
Speaker 1: love my interview with Kendall Jenna on setting boundaries to
Speaker 1: increase happiness and healing. You're inner child.
Speaker 4: You could be reading something that someone is saying about
Speaker 4: you and being like, that is so unfair because that's
Speaker 4: not who I am, and that really gets to me sometimes.
Speaker 4: But then looking at myself in the mirror and being like,
Speaker 4: but I know who I am. Why does anything else matter.
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