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Speaker 1: Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio. This classic

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Speaker 1: episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

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Speaker 2: What up, y'all is Laiyah from Team Supreme. Okay, So

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Speaker 2: it's June, and you know it is Black Music Monk

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Speaker 2: now this month and its cause was started by my godmother,

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Speaker 2: Dianna Williams, the legendary Kenny Gamble, and the great ed

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Speaker 2: right back in nineteen seventy nine after being invited to

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Speaker 2: the White House along with the Black Music Association. Now,

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Speaker 2: the Black Music Association was a group of black folks

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Speaker 2: that were the best of the best of the music industry.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking record execs, I'm talking radio people, I'm talking artists.

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Speaker 2: I'm talking to everybody from Clarence Avon and Frankie Crocker

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Speaker 2: to Percy Sutton, everybody in the middle right. So they

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Speaker 2: all get invited to this big party on the White

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Speaker 2: House lawn June seventh, nineteen seventy nine. And before the

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Speaker 2: performances started, President Carter said many things addressing and reminding

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Speaker 2: people of the importance of Black Music Monk. And one

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Speaker 2: of the things he said was end quote in many ways,

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Speaker 2: the feelings of our own black citizens throughout the history

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Speaker 2: of our country has been accurately expressed in the music,

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Speaker 2: and it presents a kind of history of our nation

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Speaker 2: when you go back and see the evolution of black

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Speaker 2: music word. So we've spoken a lot about Black Music

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Speaker 2: Month on Questloves Supreme, and this June we are running

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Speaker 2: a different episode from the QLs archives every single day

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Speaker 2: in the name, spirit and cause of Black Music Month.

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Speaker 2: Next up, we are honoring a legend who has transitioned

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Speaker 2: and so we continue to honor him, the amazing James

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Speaker 2: M Two men.

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Speaker 3: Suprema Supremo, Role called Suprema Supremo.

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Speaker 4: Roll call Suprema su Supremo. Role call Suprema Supremo.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's not surprising.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My sign is artichoke.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, with the sparagus rise Supremo.

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Speaker 6: Roll Suprema Son Supremo.

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Speaker 1: Roll my name is Fante. Yeah, and I can't stop,

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Speaker 1: won't stop. You are the key to my love life.

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Speaker 3: Supremo Suprema Supremo, roll call, I Love Air toe Yeah.

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Speaker 7: And Deodato Yeah, put this guy here. Yeah he played

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Speaker 7: with Gotto.

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Speaker 3: Suprema Son Son Supremo, roll call Suprema Son soun Supremo.

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Speaker 6: Roll called I'm unpaid Bill. Yeah, you know who you are.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, don't let it hold you down.

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Speaker 6: Reach fold.

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Speaker 3: Supremo, roll, Suprema Son Supremo role, don't be concerned.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, Boss Bill's return. Yeah, vacation was great.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, time off well earned. Suprema. I haven't been on

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Speaker 1: the train for like a month.

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Speaker 6: You yeah.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, we don't.

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Speaker 6: Supreme.

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Speaker 1: That was like turn Supreme roll.

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Speaker 8: My name is Willie Yeah, oh really yeah. My sign

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Speaker 8: is all the choke. Yeah with a green pea vison.

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Speaker 3: Supreme roll, Suprema, Supremo, Role, Supremo, Supremo, Role Supremo So sore.

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Speaker 5: Wow, gentlemen, welcome to another episode of Course Love Supreme.

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Speaker 1: Let's welcome back our boss, Boss Bill.

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Speaker 4: They're always calling the shots from Europe.

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Speaker 5: Okay, but so long you also realized that we was,

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Speaker 5: you know, taunting you while you was away.

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Speaker 1: It was definitely while cats away. You really think I cared?

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Speaker 1: I think I was thinking about this show.

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Speaker 6: How was Amsterdam? Bill?

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Speaker 4: I don't remember?

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Speaker 6: Good answer was good answer?

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Speaker 1: Good answer?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, welcome to another episode of Quest Love Supreme. We

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Speaker 5: got the team Supreme here, we got Boss Bill, unpaid Bill,

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Speaker 5: uh fan.

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Speaker 1: Ticolo and it's light Yah.

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Speaker 5: Yeah we we we decided to commit on a name

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Speaker 5: that's consistent, and this is the second week in row

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Speaker 5: that like calling you. It's like, yeah, our distinguished guests. Oh,

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Speaker 5: I'm sorry, and we got Steve.

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Speaker 1: Don't take it personal. I'm sorry man. You know we're

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Speaker 1: best friends.

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Speaker 6: Man, I mean looking right at me, that was well played.

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Speaker 9: Uh.

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Speaker 1: I just think what yesterday, ladies and gentlemen.

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Speaker 5: Uh has has achieved a lot, and in the world

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Speaker 5: of jazz, in the world of pop music and soul

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Speaker 5: music and R and B and uh, I guess inadvertently

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Speaker 5: hip hop as well. You know, absolutely he has had

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Speaker 5: his his his histories is just a who's who of

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Speaker 5: of history.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe I went to Amsterdam.

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Speaker 6: It sounds like it sounds like, yes, ladies and gentleman.

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Speaker 5: Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome, uh the incomparable James m

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Speaker 5: too maate to question.

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Speaker 8: Yes, thank you very very much. Thank you want to

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Speaker 8: be here, man, Thank you so much.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 5: We we know you have stories in history. We are

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Speaker 5: live in electric lyad the studios right now. You're about

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Speaker 5: to tell us you you've been here a few times.

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Speaker 8: Man, that's the I think the first time I was

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Speaker 8: in here was like seventy four. Wow, I remember been here,

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Speaker 8: like I can't remember. You know, jazz. A lot of

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Speaker 8: jazz records were done here in the seventh I think

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Speaker 8: the last time I was here was.

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Speaker 10: Would be Loud Yeah, yeah, yeah, with my son fire.

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Speaker 8: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: It's something about this studio that makes artists forget who

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Speaker 2: they were.

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Speaker 6: That's the same question.

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Speaker 8: He was like, I'm here, like my man just quoted

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Speaker 8: I come in here, I look up there, gotto him.

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Speaker 10: Yeah that was my Yeah, that was my mayor.

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Speaker 1: So are you you know?

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Speaker 5: Not many people know that you are a Philadelphia something?

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Speaker 1: Does phil you know that you're a Philadelphia? You know what?

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Speaker 8: That's a great question. Most people don't know that, although

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Speaker 8: I've always made that clear. Brother was born and raised

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Speaker 8: in South Philly. I left when I was eighteen.

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Speaker 10: To go to college in Pasadena. But South Philly.

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Speaker 1: Man, Yeah, but are you? Are you even in the.

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Speaker 8: Nothing, I never got any wreckord. No, No, I will.

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Speaker 5: It's crazy, I will probably I'm not playing Devil's advocate

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Speaker 5: because you know, if you're if you're on a border

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Speaker 5: committee like that, I would hope to think that you

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Speaker 5: would do your thorough research.

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Speaker 1: But I don't.

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Speaker 5: I mean, based only that you don't do that much

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Speaker 5: press or no, a lot of press, and I'm pretty

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Speaker 5: much a sponge for this type of information. I truly

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Speaker 5: didn't know that until maybe, you know, three four five

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Speaker 5: minutes ago.

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Speaker 8: You know what's deep about that? Brother? That's why into

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Speaker 8: y'all when I heard that y'all was from Philly the roots.

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Speaker 10: Really, yes, sir, it.

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Speaker 1: Makes sense now. Yeah, so you're born in South Philly where.

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Speaker 8: Uh fifteen twenty six Warton Street, right across the street

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Speaker 8: from Barrett Junior High. I went to Overbrook High Overbrook.

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Speaker 10: Yes, sir, Wait, year did you go to Overbrook? Damn

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Speaker 10: you getting deep?

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Speaker 8: I went. I graduated in sixty six, so I think

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Speaker 8: was that sixty two? Because remember back then high school

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Speaker 8: started in tenth grade. Okay, you know you had Junior

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Speaker 8: High right and then high. So yeah, and I went

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Speaker 8: to Overbrook because I went to school. I was a

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Speaker 8: swimmer and over in the South and Southern didn't have

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Speaker 8: a swimming team. And my uncle lived in the right

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Speaker 8: around the corner from Overbrook, so I used this address

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Speaker 8: and commuted every day.

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Speaker 5: It's weird you say Southern, because my era of Southern

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Speaker 5: was like Joe Clark's lean on me southern right rights.

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Speaker 1: Matter of fact, West Philly High School is the same way.

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Speaker 10: Like you know back in back in those day.

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Speaker 1: But was it cool to go to southern if you

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Speaker 1: wanted to?

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Speaker 8: Well, you know, it wasn't that many bloods really, you know,

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Speaker 8: it was a whole You gotta remember, South Philly wasn't

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Speaker 8: what it was.

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Speaker 10: I mean back then.

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Speaker 8: I think my family when we moved there, we were

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Speaker 8: probably about the second family black family that was in

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Speaker 8: that area.

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Speaker 4: What did your folks do?

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Speaker 8: Uh?

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Speaker 10: Well, let me let me get this this great question.

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Speaker 8: Uh. My biological father is is a Jimmy Heath, Great Jimmy,

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Speaker 8: yes sir, and.

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Speaker 10: Of the of the Heath brothers, my uncles Percy my uh,

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Speaker 10: of the uncle's two dy uh Coomber.

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Speaker 8: The father that raised me was was was a great

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Speaker 8: pianist named James heng Gates foreman.

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Speaker 4: Uh.

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Speaker 8: He played with Bird, he played with Dizzy, he played

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Speaker 8: with Lester Young, you know. And as a matter of fact,

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Speaker 8: Bill when he was Billy Billy Holliday paid for my parents'

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Speaker 8: wedding with my mother and yes, sir, down in Washington

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Speaker 8: is my sister's god mother. My sister's passed, but Dona

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Speaker 8: who are we gonna go there? Brother, I'm seventy years old,

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Speaker 8: but I've been in this thing. Man, when I was

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Speaker 8: ten or eleven. I just briefly say this. I remember

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Speaker 8: sometimes be at the table dinner. There's dizzey beless people. Wow,

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Speaker 8: there's still lonely this monk, there's cold Trane. I'm not

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Speaker 8: gonna say I knew how hip that was, but I

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Speaker 8: knew I was in some special shit.

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Speaker 6: What was the dinner conversation like with those kind of people?

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Speaker 8: Nine man, I just knew it was like wow, you know,

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Speaker 8: And as I got older, the deep part is that

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Speaker 8: I ended up playing with some of these people.

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Speaker 1: When did you appreciate it?

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Speaker 10: The intellect and the humor.

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Speaker 8: One of the funniest people in the world was Miles

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Speaker 8: Dats and a lot of people don't because you know.

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Speaker 4: You see him as just the serious sky.

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Speaker 8: Man, funniest cat in the world. All jazz cats are funny.

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Speaker 8: I think Dave Chappelle, uh you cats were played on it.

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Speaker 8: I think when he had that block party and I

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Speaker 8: saw him sit down and he started playing around midnight,

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Speaker 8: I said, Lord, and he was talking about the humor of.

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Speaker 10: Monk and timing, you know, man, it was.

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Speaker 8: It was very special. Uh, Sonny violence, I played with

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Speaker 8: all these cats. Well, I'm sorry, I was going to

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Speaker 8: add this. Well, I'm like, I'm old, so I get them.

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Speaker 6: You already take it out.

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Speaker 8: My father, Jimmy Heath and and myself are the only

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Speaker 8: father's son historically that ever played with Myles.

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Speaker 10: Father played, and the son played with Mars.

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Speaker 4: And when you when you were with Myles, what were

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Speaker 4: you playing?

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Speaker 8: Percussion?

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Speaker 4: Placussion?

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Speaker 8: But I was.

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Speaker 10: I also played.

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Speaker 8: You know, obviously I didn't write songs or scored, but

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Speaker 8: I'm a keyboardst Okay.

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Speaker 5: So can I ask, well, first of all for the

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Speaker 5: Heath brother's question, yes, sir, because they mean a lot

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Speaker 5: to us.

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Speaker 1: For another reason, who was playing?

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Speaker 6: Who's playing?

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Speaker 8: Uh?

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Speaker 5: Colimba on Danny Cow that wash?

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Speaker 1: Yeah? Okay, so that even makes more sense keyboards.

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Speaker 9: Do you care to elaborate for the people that that

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Speaker 9: don't listen to Nas.

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Speaker 6: I don't care to welcome back?

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Speaker 5: Okay, okay, So basically for hip hop heads that care

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Speaker 5: about the artist sampling? Uh A well loved Heath Brothers

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Speaker 5: song called Smiling Billy was sampled by Nas. Uh q

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Speaker 5: Tip sampled it on NAS's One Love and so, and

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Speaker 5: the beating that's also sampled, of course, yes, the beating

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Speaker 5: on style.

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Speaker 1: But silely cow. I didn't, Yes, I that's that one.

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Speaker 1: I didn't know.

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Speaker 5: I didn't know that he was in the crew, and

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Speaker 5: I didn't know they were from Philly. But I was

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Speaker 5: saying that when these luminaries are like coming to your

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Speaker 5: house and and just hang with you, no one, yeah,

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Speaker 5: no one appreciates it when they're young.

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Speaker 10: I did, well.

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Speaker 5: I was saying, like, so you instantly knew and appreciated it.

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Speaker 8: Like I said, I'd be lying to say that young,

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Speaker 8: I just knew it was something special.

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Speaker 10: I knew it was something special.

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Speaker 8: And sometimes the cats would stay with it, like if

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Speaker 8: they were working Philly, like Sonny Stick would live with

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Speaker 8: us for that week. And I remember one day waking

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Speaker 8: up he was in the backyard practicing playing afato. Barry Harris,

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Speaker 8: a great jazz pianist, stayed with us. He's with Cannonball

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Speaker 8: back then, and they come and play. I was going

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Speaker 8: in the clubs when I was fourteen and fifteen. I

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Speaker 8: couldn't buy no drink, but I you know cats, you

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Speaker 8: know said, you know, get a little little punk a

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Speaker 8: coke us up you know, but I used to go

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Speaker 8: there and hear yousef PEPs and the show.

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Speaker 10: But oh yeah, man, so.

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Speaker 6: What was the okay?

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Speaker 5: So described the Philly cabaret music scene, like, what was it?

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Speaker 5: Where could you where could you go see? What was

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Speaker 5: the typical lineup like? And to see these shows?

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Speaker 10: Well, you know there were especially in Field.

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Speaker 8: Well back in them days, every city had a ton

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Speaker 8: of jazz clubs and that's where them you know, obviously

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Speaker 8: you notice, you know as as well as I do.

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Speaker 10: That's where you went to hear the music.

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Speaker 8: It wasn't until Miles came along that jazz started breaking

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Speaker 8: on the concert. You know, you go pay money and

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Speaker 8: sit in the in the in the you know, Lincoln Center,

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Speaker 8: you know, and in places like that. But the clubs, man,

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Speaker 8: you know, that's where it was, and it was the

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Speaker 8: crowds were so hip. The bebop audience was as hip

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Speaker 8: as the cats on stage. Cause you had to know,

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Speaker 8: you know, you wasn't you wasn't hip if you didn't

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Speaker 8: have the new cold train, you know I'm talking about.

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Speaker 10: I'm in junior high school, man, I.

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Speaker 8: Couldn't wait when you know, Milestone and cond of Blue

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Speaker 8: came out and I used to study every solo and

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Speaker 8: I would hum them.

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Speaker 10: That was my introduction to this music.

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Speaker 11: So at your at your time, when you were coming up,

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Speaker 11: jazz was like the pop music of your time, the

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Speaker 11: real hip hop.

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Speaker 8: Dig it was that. And I'm also growing up with

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Speaker 8: Frankie Lyman and the teenagers Why the Fools fall in love?

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Speaker 8: So it's the birth of black R and B. And

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Speaker 8: this whole youth, you know, was w D as Georgie

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Speaker 8: woods Man with the Goods. You know, every night I'm

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Speaker 8: listening to that. Now, this is a funny story. And

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Speaker 8: if I'm talking too much, y'all come.

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Speaker 6: That's what we want. So normally we talk. Please talk

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Speaker 6: more than me.

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Speaker 8: See one thing you gotta remember back then, growing up

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Speaker 8: in a jazz household was almost like and listening to

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Speaker 8: R and B was almost sacrilegious, you dig uh, It's

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Speaker 8: like you know people who grow up in the church

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Speaker 8: and they go into funk and armby. Oh wait a minute,

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Speaker 8: you know. So I used to have to listen to

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Speaker 8: my stuff real low, you know, at night. But I

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Speaker 8: have then that we had transistor radios. I have it

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Speaker 8: under the pillow, and I used to hear all these cats. Man,

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Speaker 8: you know, Georgie Woods and back then, you know, it

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Speaker 8: wasn't this like if he dug a record and Kenny

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Speaker 8: Gamble told me this. He said, sometimes him and the

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Speaker 8: Huff would cut a record and run right up to

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Speaker 8: the station and dropped on him and he played four

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Speaker 8: times in a row, because that's how you broke records

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Speaker 8: back then.

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Speaker 10: Wow. So you know, so I'm growing up with jazz

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Speaker 10: and the birth of R and B.

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Speaker 5: Slight slight confession time, Yes, sir, And it's kind of weird.

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm your story in reverse.

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Speaker 5: So for all the Prince for Glory stories I've ever

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Speaker 5: told about being on punishment for Prince and parents, yeah,

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Speaker 5: being all that.

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Speaker 1: Actually Prince wasn't first. I mean, Prince was prevalent. But

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Speaker 1: the very first time that my parents pulled an intervention

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Speaker 1: on a mirror listening to secular, salacious pop music was

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Speaker 1: I had flim flammed, and you know, I asked my mom, like, YO,

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Speaker 1: buy me the juicy food. Oh god, you know, I

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Speaker 1: was like to I was in California asking my mom, like,

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Speaker 1: give me juicy food forty five. She was like, no,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a lollipop everywhere. Noah.

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Speaker 5: And then I tried to do it on dad like that,

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Speaker 5: and then they did that, Wait didn't you already ask

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Speaker 5: your mother?

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Speaker 6: And asked me so.

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Speaker 5: Before they issued the your un punishment joint. Then I

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Speaker 5: kind of snuck. I had an older cousin that was

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Speaker 5: sort of like an aunt, and we were just in

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Speaker 5: together in the mom you know. She she brought me

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Speaker 5: like two forty eight. She brought me a New York

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Speaker 5: New York by Grandma's and plasts and furies five and

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Speaker 5: then just in passing, like I decrabbed the juicy food

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Speaker 5: forty five and brought it and thought I was cool.

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Speaker 1: Then I got caught with it. My punishment.

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Speaker 4: With jazz.

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Speaker 6: Wow, Like this is where.

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Speaker 5: I don't know my dad's version of extra sizing it

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Speaker 5: out of there, but this is where she made like

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Speaker 5: I could listen to nothing but Coltrane for like a week.

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Speaker 10: What a punishment, you know?

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Speaker 5: And I was mad, you really, It really wasn't until

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Speaker 5: I went to high school and got it right. So

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Speaker 5: all the knowledge that I had to impress Chris McBride

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Speaker 5: and all those cats, it was based on all the

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Speaker 5: jazz thanks to him to me. And I'm a jazz artist, right,

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Speaker 5: So it's like in reverse. But I mean where you're.

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Speaker 1: I know that the from the Motown angle. I know,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of the Funk Brothers.

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Speaker 5: Kind of looked down right jazz cats that look down

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Speaker 5: on pop music and all right, let's just make this

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Speaker 5: check real quick and you know, get out the way.

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Speaker 1: But this is really not an art That's what I think.

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Speaker 10: That was real.

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Speaker 1: But I mean where you're like to sneak to listen

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Speaker 1: to it? Was it just like.

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Speaker 5: They just thought it wasn't an art form or it

353
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Speaker 5: was just like well like how they view James.

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Speaker 8: Look, James was God everywhere. I mean even in a

355
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Speaker 8: jazz in a jazz setting, it was something about James

356
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Speaker 8: the funk. It's it's that wasn't about the music. That

357
00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:21,480
Speaker 8: was about you know, your DNA. But I wanted you

358
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Speaker 8: brought up Juicy Fruit. Can I give you a quick story?

359
00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:27,359
Speaker 8: Everything got a story, tell me Juicy Fruit. When I

360
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Speaker 8: brought it to the record company Epic, they didn't want

361
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Speaker 8: to release it. I had to argue, well, you know

362
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Speaker 8: you can lick me everywhere. Now, that's now, that's like

363
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Speaker 8: that's tanging stuff.

364
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Speaker 12: I hear now.

365
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Speaker 10: But they didn't want to release it.

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Speaker 8: They were afraid of the lyric that one line, which

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Speaker 8: ironically became the line everybody waded to sing along with.

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Speaker 8: But they did not release it for daytime radio. They

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Speaker 8: only released it for the midnight shows. After one week,

370
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Speaker 8: they were getting so many calls. And this is one

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Speaker 8: thing that I wanted to say when I wrote that

372
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Speaker 8: the beat wasn't the main thing to me. Ah, it

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Speaker 8: was what I was trying to do with the chords

374
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Speaker 8: and the colors and the melody and the inversions. So

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Speaker 8: I'm tripping on Oh yeah, I think we stumbled on something.

376
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Speaker 8: And the only thing I felt about that, and that

377
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Speaker 8: was the last song I cut on that record. I

378
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Speaker 8: was finished with the album and some and I walked

379
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Speaker 8: in and we finished that night, and there was the

380
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Speaker 8: drum machine there, the the lindrum, and I told that,

381
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Speaker 8: you know, I told the enginet man put that up.

382
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Speaker 8: So I went tic cat, doom tick kick, goom cat.

383
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Speaker 8: I said, wow, I like that, and he said, hey,

384
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Speaker 8: let's quantitize it. I said no, I said, I want

385
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Speaker 8: to humanize technology, not the technology makes it, because when

386
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Speaker 8: something's exact, that's that's dragged me. And especially as as

387
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Speaker 8: as a drummer, I wanted to lean a little bit.

388
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Speaker 8: So if you listen to that beat, it's slightly off

389
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Speaker 8: on purpose because it feels human. But wow, they didn't

390
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Speaker 8: want to release it, but they were forced to release it.

391
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Speaker 5: I can't recall this. Someone told me a story. Someone

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Speaker 5: very prominent is on Juicy Fruit. And they told me

393
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Speaker 5: the story, like how many musicians were on Juicy Fruit.

394
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Speaker 6: Uh.

395
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Speaker 8: Someone I know the rhythm section. Uh oh wait a minute,

396
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:38,919
Speaker 8: waitit waite, Well, rhythm section obviously was myself, Philip Field,

397
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Speaker 8: Raymond Jackson. Philip Field keyboards, I'm keyboards Raymond's bass, and

398
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Speaker 8: it's a drum machine, so ain't no drummer. Uh. And

399
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Speaker 8: of course to Wafa's lead on that record on Juicy Fruit,

400
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Speaker 8: Freddie Jackson, he's part of the court. You know juicy Yeah, Freddy?

401
00:21:57,320 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 10: What to Watha brought Freddie to sing?

402
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Speaker 8: I think he's on two songs the first time I

403
00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:06,399
Speaker 8: met him, he's on Juicy Food, and that might be

404
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:10,920
Speaker 8: the story. I'm thinking, oh women, and and and and

405
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Speaker 8: when I did overdubs, Okay, you're making me go back

406
00:22:14,760 --> 00:22:16,479
Speaker 8: of the system.

407
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Speaker 6: Brought David Frank.

408
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Speaker 8: David Frank, I had him double the guitar. No, no,

409
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Speaker 8: he's not Bernie's on the Juicy Food album not not

410
00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:29,359
Speaker 8: not on Yeah, yeah, Bernie, Me and Bernie, you know,

411
00:22:29,440 --> 00:22:35,280
Speaker 8: went way back. I us Bernie's on Stephanie I first

412
00:22:35,359 --> 00:22:38,040
Speaker 8: got me and Bernie first hooked up. You know. Everybody

413
00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:41,320
Speaker 8: was all p funk, you know. And uh, I used

414
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Speaker 8: Bernie on the Stephanie Mills album and we were so

415
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:50,960
Speaker 8: we were very tight. But yeah, David, do do do.

416
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Speaker 8: It's a guitar playing it, and I wanted him to

417
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Speaker 8: double it with a synth sound, and Mick is playing

418
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Speaker 8: on the bridge do do do don do?

419
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Speaker 5: That's really oh man, it was like that All Star

420
00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:11,840
Speaker 5: so okay, So with the system that was a group.

421
00:23:13,280 --> 00:23:17,800
Speaker 5: So with your jazz lineage, yes, sir, and you making

422
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:28,240
Speaker 5: your entry uh on professional records, can you describe what

423
00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 5: what the atmosphere was like, especially to make your entry

424
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Speaker 5: on On the Corner, which which all right.

425
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Speaker 8: Why y'all hitting the loaded belt?

426
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Speaker 6: But see, okay, yeah, let me let me explain.

427
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Speaker 10: We'll go there.

428
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Speaker 5: See critically speaking, On the Corner is one of those

429
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Speaker 5: records that at the time, when released by Miles Davis,

430
00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:59,040
Speaker 5: it caused a major similar to the Civil War that

431
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:00,200
Speaker 5: hip hop had.

432
00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:01,280
Speaker 6: No, I mean hip hop.

433
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,200
Speaker 5: Hip hop heads have had civil wars over particular albums

434
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Speaker 5: by their favorites, in which you know, traditionalists like, no,

435
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:10,800
Speaker 5: you got to stick with the tradition.

436
00:24:10,560 --> 00:24:13,959
Speaker 8: And that was the star wars brother, you know.

437
00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,200
Speaker 5: But what happened is that time goes on. That time

438
00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,240
Speaker 5: goes on, and you know, for all those critics that

439
00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 5: said this is the whatever, the worst piece of shit

440
00:24:25,040 --> 00:24:28,640
Speaker 5: that Miles ever released, down beats review of it was horrible,

441
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:33,400
Speaker 5: then suddenly in thirty forty years another generation of critics

442
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,040
Speaker 5: come along and they proclaimed this.

443
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 6: The best thing ever. So I want you to do

444
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:42,840
Speaker 6: for me.

445
00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:48,119
Speaker 5: What was your family's feelings of what Miles was getting

446
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 5: into and bringing you into, and jazz heads around your

447
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,440
Speaker 5: way they're like, oh, that's not real jazz, Like, what

448
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:57,440
Speaker 5: was the feeling?

449
00:24:57,960 --> 00:24:58,720
Speaker 6: What was going on?

450
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:02,040
Speaker 8: Well, first of all, let me let me give you

451
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:08,239
Speaker 8: quickly just quick backdrop how I joined myles. Uh I

452
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:12,200
Speaker 8: came to New York and uh I was living in Nork.

453
00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:16,440
Speaker 8: Uh Imamu Baraka asked me to come back and help

454
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,560
Speaker 8: on the Ken Gibson campaign that was the first black

455
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 8: mayor of Newark in nineteen seventy one.

456
00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 10: While I was here, I was here for two weeks

457
00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:24,880
Speaker 10: and I got.

458
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:28,439
Speaker 8: A call from McCoy. Tyner asked me to record. That

459
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 8: was my first I did about six albums with McCoy.

460
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:34,600
Speaker 8: But then I was with Freddi Hubbard and Miles came

461
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 8: to hear me. We were playing the Village Vanguard and uh.

462
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 4: You're playing percussion with yeah.

463
00:25:41,600 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 8: I mean, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

464
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:48,400
Speaker 1: I was just trying to know what instrument I didn't

465
00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:49,439
Speaker 1: because you played yeah.

466
00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 6: Yeah yeah.

467
00:25:49,720 --> 00:25:52,240
Speaker 8: But because that's that's where where I cut my bones

468
00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:55,640
Speaker 8: in the jazz. Well, you know, got to all that, man.

469
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 8: But I'm probably on about sixty albums. But I just

470
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,479
Speaker 8: I came at the right moment. Pharaoh Sonders and all

471
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 8: these cats we were working. So when I joined Miles,

472
00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:07,840
Speaker 8: he calls me for the first session.

473
00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:08,640
Speaker 10: It's on the.

474
00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:14,439
Speaker 8: Corner now, I was. I had already done an album

475
00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 8: called two one called Cowboy Eating, which was my uncle album,

476
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,960
Speaker 8: my uncle's album, but I wrote all them. He asked

477
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:22,320
Speaker 8: me to write all the music, and I did my

478
00:26:22,359 --> 00:26:24,840
Speaker 8: own record called ol Cable Line, Land of the Blacks,

479
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:30,399
Speaker 8: all avant garde acoustic music. I walk in with Myles.

480
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:36,000
Speaker 8: I was infatuated, the world hated it. You're right. They

481
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:38,160
Speaker 8: said it was the worst piece of shit, and one

482
00:26:38,200 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 8: of the reasons was Myles was so far ahead. Here's

483
00:26:42,520 --> 00:26:45,760
Speaker 8: a cat playing wild wild on the trumpet. I'm talking

484
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 8: about nineteen seventy two. Man, And everywhere we played there

485
00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,880
Speaker 8: was two vibes. The audience which was like, I never

486
00:26:57,960 --> 00:27:02,199
Speaker 8: heard nothing like this, and jazz as critics, who I

487
00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 8: had a debate on it's on YouTube with one of

488
00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 8: the jazz critics.

489
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, and stilly knock you out crossed.

490
00:27:14,720 --> 00:27:17,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, yes, sometimes you get knocked out, you know, yes,

491
00:27:18,480 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 8: but uh, they had never been challenged. And I was

492
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 8: coming from that band had been through so much, and

493
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 8: we all had this because if you didn't have that

494
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 8: with Miles, every night, you going somewhere where you don't know. Now,

495
00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 8: sometimes you're going for another planet you might miss, but

496
00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:39,880
Speaker 8: when you hit you might be playing two hours. Man.

497
00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 8: But in that two hours, just like maybe fifteen fifteen

498
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:49,800
Speaker 8: minutes that you.

499
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 10: You on another planet.

500
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,639
Speaker 8: Man. Literally, this was like, and I know I'm getting

501
00:27:52,680 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 8: like misty with this, but we there. This cat Man

502
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,960
Speaker 8: is the greatest that we ever produced. And when he died, Man,

503
00:28:01,000 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 8: I cried like a baby. Man, and I still miss him.

504
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:07,159
Speaker 8: I miss him more today for the wisdom that he

505
00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:09,480
Speaker 8: dropped on me. I remember when I was with we

506
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:12,400
Speaker 8: were The first tour I was with him in seventy

507
00:28:12,440 --> 00:28:18,160
Speaker 8: one was in Europe. Keith Jared on piano, keyboards of me, uh,

508
00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,920
Speaker 8: Gary bots On altoe uh In Dual Chancellor on on

509
00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 8: on drums. Michael Henderson, Yes, sir, and.

510
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:30,440
Speaker 10: I did a solo I used to close the show.

511
00:28:30,520 --> 00:28:32,639
Speaker 8: And man, you know when you play it and you

512
00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,080
Speaker 8: rocked it or standing old and I'm walking off, you

513
00:28:35,080 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 8: know I'm pissing vinegar. Yeah, and his voice walks up,

514
00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 8: that wasn't shit balloon cit and Miles said, man, look man,

515
00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 8: stop playing what you know. Start playing what you don't know. Now,

516
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 8: First of all, how do I even navigate that?

517
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 10: What do you mean?

518
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:58,240
Speaker 8: Then? I figured it out. Stop using that same street

519
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 8: to go where you're going. Use another avenue. There's different

520
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,280
Speaker 8: ways to go to that same destination. And cliches are

521
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:08,720
Speaker 8: death traps. Musicians know you know that like a singer,

522
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,080
Speaker 8: let me hit this high note. I never go, oh no,

523
00:29:12,400 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 8: don't do that. So I had to learn to approach

524
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:22,440
Speaker 8: everything backwards. Don't do what you did. He also told

525
00:29:22,480 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 8: me things like Silence is sound. He said, space is everything.

526
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,920
Speaker 8: He said. We had many talks because you know, it

527
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:33,920
Speaker 8: was a father son thing too. He said, if you

528
00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 8: got ten possible notes for a melody, he said, you

529
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 8: have to learn how to abbreviate. He said, take the

530
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 8: one note that implies the other nine. Now all this

531
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 8: stuff I apply years later. Wow, you know.

532
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:49,360
Speaker 10: Implies the other nine.

533
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,000
Speaker 8: You don't have to use that. He said. Abbreviation is

534
00:29:52,000 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 8: the secret to the music.

535
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:54,240
Speaker 10: He said.

536
00:29:54,240 --> 00:29:57,760
Speaker 8: People talk in paragraphs, they play in paragraphs. He said, No,

537
00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:06,200
Speaker 8: learn how to play in quotations. Ah, you know. Yeah.

538
00:30:07,640 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 11: One thing I was always curious because you're the first

539
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:11,959
Speaker 11: person I've ever met that actually played with Miles. Yes,

540
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 11: What was it about him that he seemed to me

541
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:17,600
Speaker 11: he was the greatest because he seemed like he made

542
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 11: band leaders like everyone that came out of his crew

543
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 11: went on to do their own thing and start their

544
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 11: own crew and become legends in their own right. What

545
00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:27,640
Speaker 11: was it about him that you think that it was

546
00:30:27,680 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 11: able to shape people in that way.

547
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 10: He was at cat.

548
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:37,280
Speaker 8: Sometimes there's no verbal explanation. Some people are this, that's

549
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 8: that dude all over the world.

550
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 5: I was gonna ask, does he did he communicate a lot.

551
00:30:42,600 --> 00:30:45,920
Speaker 5: Because the way that when I watch those old Manto

552
00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:52,160
Speaker 5: Jazz festival videos and stuff, the way that he's sort

553
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 5: of walking amongst you guys, I feel like there's a

554
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 5: communication going on that isn't words.

555
00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 8: And see that's a great point. Now. The other thing

556
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,800
Speaker 8: that he did, if you see any of those clips

557
00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:06,920
Speaker 8: on YouTube, and thank god for YouTube, because the new

558
00:31:06,960 --> 00:31:09,480
Speaker 8: generation would have never had a chance to see what

559
00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 8: the bullshit the critics were writing. YouTube really brought that

560
00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:19,960
Speaker 8: music to the forefront for younger people. He took me

561
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 8: usually you know, percussions, the hand drummers in the back,

562
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,640
Speaker 8: maybe next to the drummer. If you notice all them videos,

563
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 8: I'm standing next to him, and our communication was nonverbal.

564
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 10: I could finish the phrase. I knew where he would go.

565
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 8: And I remember one time we played somewhere and one

566
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:42,960
Speaker 8: of the reviews that Miles was playing some jungle voodoo music. Well,

567
00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 8: I was into, Yeah, he's right for the wrong reason,

568
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:53,320
Speaker 8: this is voodoo. But Miles just always knew, like sometimes

569
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,400
Speaker 8: you get into that music and you get lost. I

570
00:31:56,440 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 8: remember one time we played We're in Colorado and we had.

571
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,080
Speaker 10: A set with the whole the club was in the

572
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:06,040
Speaker 10: basement of the hotel.

573
00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:11,520
Speaker 8: We played a three hour set and this is the

574
00:32:11,600 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 8: honest to god truth. I experienced this. I felt levitation

575
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 8: on the stage. The thing became so organic. All we

576
00:32:20,840 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 8: did was look at each other, everybody, and when we finished,

577
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 8: we got on the elevator. Nobody said a word. Miles

578
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 8: laid down on the floor. We all got off on

579
00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:33,760
Speaker 8: different floors. Nobody said good night.

580
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:34,520
Speaker 6: No, we got.

581
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 10: That's the kind of that's the kind of stuff.

582
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 6: Man, How would you.

583
00:32:40,880 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 10: I don't know if this makes sense, but.

584
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 6: I mean to me, he was.

585
00:32:45,960 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 13: He's notoriously known as the greatest town scout in jazz history.

586
00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 13: You know, like he could see.

587
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,160
Speaker 10: He knew, he knew what he knew.

588
00:32:55,160 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: The other dude, he gave you and then.

589
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 10: It's a deep thing.

590
00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 8: He gave you the canvas, but he let you paint.

591
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:03,960
Speaker 2: Was that the first and the last time you had

592
00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:04,479
Speaker 2: that feeling?

593
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 8: Only time?

594
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 2: So? Do you there were the musicians that are still

595
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,720
Speaker 2: alive within that collective when y'all see each other, or

596
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,440
Speaker 2: is it still that connection because y'all had that that

597
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 2: moment that probably nobody ever had.

598
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:27,959
Speaker 10: Okay, confession.

599
00:33:29,280 --> 00:33:32,960
Speaker 8: On behalf of the group, Reggie Lucas who was my partner,

600
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,800
Speaker 8: Michael Henderson, the baddest motherfucker that most people never understood.

601
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 8: Pete Cosey on the guitar, our foster monster drummer. I said, Michael,

602
00:33:48,960 --> 00:33:50,880
Speaker 8: Dave Leaveman. We had a couple of sacks, but Dave

603
00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,680
Speaker 8: was great. But before David was a catnamed Carlos Garnet. Okay,

604
00:33:56,360 --> 00:34:03,920
Speaker 8: he's on the alive at the Philharmonic. Miles never told

605
00:34:04,040 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 8: any of us what to play, but he also I

606
00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 8: remember when I ran into to Herbie and Herbie was

607
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 8: telling me, here, said Miles, and he said, and he said, tunes.

608
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:16,760
Speaker 8: Let me ask you a question, how did your rehearse?

609
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 1: And I said that's why I was just going to ask.

610
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 8: No, baby, I can't count a few. And I was

611
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:25,960
Speaker 8: a stickler, you know. I was that young cat man,

612
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,839
Speaker 8: we need to rehearse more. I remember I stepped on him.

613
00:34:28,160 --> 00:34:31,839
Speaker 8: He gave me that look. He said, motherfucker, I pay

614
00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:37,880
Speaker 8: you the rehearsal on stage every night. And I tell you.

615
00:34:40,160 --> 00:34:42,960
Speaker 2: So from a civilian because I'm not a musician standpoint.

616
00:34:42,960 --> 00:34:45,200
Speaker 2: I really got to understand. So you get on stage,

617
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: he starts playing then what.

618
00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 8: No, no, no, We knew We had just what I

619
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 8: call thematic fibers. There were themes and we knew like

620
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 8: black Satin d deep. He would just start these fibers

621
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,839
Speaker 8: and we just go okay. And what he meant by

622
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 8: I paid you, I paid you to rehearse every night,

623
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,479
Speaker 8: he said, I never want to overcook the meal.

624
00:35:08,280 --> 00:35:10,040
Speaker 11: And you start getting you don't want to get it

625
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,000
Speaker 11: too perfect again.

626
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 8: You start working out little things that you know work.

627
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 10: No, no, I don't want that. He didn't want that.

628
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:18,800
Speaker 6: I never reheard, Steve.

629
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 5: There's no comeback for that I gave you.

630
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 6: But okay.

631
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:31,759
Speaker 5: So the the sessions that wound up being on the

632
00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 5: Corner album, which kind of bled into three or four albums,

633
00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:48,200
Speaker 5: certainly or surely, there were a or b moments you

634
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:52,680
Speaker 5: guys would remember and repeat those phrases or like how

635
00:35:52,719 --> 00:35:54,959
Speaker 5: would you know to start a song and end the song?

636
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,080
Speaker 1: And that sort of.

637
00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:02,319
Speaker 8: He would play a phrase after a while, like I said,

638
00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:09,279
Speaker 8: when something becomes so organic, it's just a collective orgasm.

639
00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:12,800
Speaker 8: He would play something and we knew where it was

640
00:36:12,800 --> 00:36:15,239
Speaker 8: supposed to go, and it was time to end it.

641
00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,680
Speaker 8: He would step in and play something to lead into

642
00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 8: the next thematic fiber. We knew the themes where that

643
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:27,800
Speaker 8: thing went. That was that was the journey.

644
00:36:28,520 --> 00:36:33,760
Speaker 5: I also found it, not ironic, but almost full circle

645
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 5: that the core of the musicians that made on the corner,

646
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:47,720
Speaker 5: you know, making the most envelope pushing radical jazz music

647
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:53,560
Speaker 5: ever turned around and wound up writing the most lush

648
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:58,360
Speaker 5: pop music, the most digestible, easy listening pop. Like was

649
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:00,920
Speaker 5: it almost therapeutic that the pendula have to come on

650
00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 5: the other side of things?

651
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:02,759
Speaker 1: And that's great.

652
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:03,960
Speaker 8: I never thought of it that way.

653
00:37:04,280 --> 00:37:07,239
Speaker 5: Was it all of you, including Lenny White, Herbie Hancock? Ye,

654
00:37:07,960 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 5: all Miles's greatest decision.

655
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 10: But you know that was also that period.

656
00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,279
Speaker 8: Don't forget George Duke, don't forget Stanley Carr. We were

657
00:37:15,320 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 8: all playing jazz. It was a it was a generational shift. Now,

658
00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 8: the one thing I always tell people, if you change

659
00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 8: because you're trying to just be with the times, that's adaptation.

660
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 8: If you changed because emotionally you're committed to the change,

661
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,759
Speaker 8: that's metamorphosis. So it was all metamorphosis for us, But

662
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 8: maybe it was a little therapeutic.

663
00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,040
Speaker 10: We couldn't go no further out.

664
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:48,360
Speaker 8: I guess you had to come. But I remember, for

665
00:37:48,440 --> 00:37:52,680
Speaker 8: me it started with the closes I get to you,

666
00:37:52,680 --> 00:37:59,359
Speaker 8: you know, and and I was going that way, and

667
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:03,040
Speaker 8: then I my bridge was was Eddie Henderson, a great

668
00:38:03,200 --> 00:38:09,120
Speaker 8: jazz trumpeter. And actually people think about I always always laugh.

669
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 8: I say, ma, juicy food is one of the grandparents

670
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 8: of hip hop, you know, man, But Eddie Henderson.

671
00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:18,040
Speaker 10: My first sample was actually jay Z on the.

672
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:25,759
Speaker 8: Inside You, which was on a reasonable doubt coming of age.

673
00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 8: I got the shorty on my block, always clucking my rocks.

674
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 8: He likes to said the profile. I think he wanted

675
00:38:55,600 --> 00:38:57,879
Speaker 8: the month. He likes to wait. Yet wood he see

676
00:38:57,920 --> 00:38:59,120
Speaker 8: my money to getting up?

677
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:00,000
Speaker 1: Getting up?

678
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 8: Eddie Henderson was my my I would I would do

679
00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:07,400
Speaker 8: albums with him, and he always asked me for two songs.

680
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 8: And that's why I developed what I call one thing

681
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 8: I tell songwriters the first thing you need to make

682
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 8: sure you tap into is what is your rhythm. Some

683
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:20,960
Speaker 8: people write great ballads, some people write up temple. Find

684
00:39:21,000 --> 00:39:24,920
Speaker 8: your temple first, because when you find your temple, you

685
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 8: don't have to write the other ship. You know what

686
00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:32,960
Speaker 8: you're good at. That eliminates experimenting. And I knew, oh man, y'all,

687
00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 8: that's beautiful.

688
00:39:38,520 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, but it's it's for for that particular project.

689
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,120
Speaker 1: Who who was the who were the musicians that.

690
00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:49,480
Speaker 10: Were which which project?

691
00:39:49,719 --> 00:39:51,760
Speaker 1: Or for the for the Eddie Henderson stuff.

692
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:57,920
Speaker 8: Okay, inside you that's me and Patrice Russian playing keyboards.

693
00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,640
Speaker 8: I think she's I'm playing the Roads, she's playing Road.

694
00:40:00,680 --> 00:40:07,920
Speaker 8: Of course, I'm playing Acoustie. Uh uh oh my god.

695
00:40:08,600 --> 00:40:12,320
Speaker 8: Herbie Hancock's bass player. That's Jackson is Less.

696
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: Paul Jackson, Paul Jackson, Paul Jackson.

697
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:16,319
Speaker 8: It was Herbie's drummer. I forgot his name.

698
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,719
Speaker 5: Damn, I should know this, right, Yeah, and that.

699
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,279
Speaker 8: Was that the drummer he's on the Headhunters.

700
00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:25,840
Speaker 10: The Headhunters.

701
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, and and I think that was it because

702
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,759
Speaker 8: it was it was just two keyboards and we just overdubbed,

703
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 8: you know, the strings and the horns. Uh it's Eddie.

704
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:45,360
Speaker 8: I forgot who's on trombone.

705
00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,160
Speaker 1: Billy Higgins too, also drummer with you guys, right, Billy Higgins.

706
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:52,759
Speaker 10: No, I played with Billy with my father, but.

707
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 5: Well I know that he played with Uh no, no, no, no,

708
00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 5: I'm thinking of Eddie.

709
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 1: Interesting, I'm thinking about your art former projects.

710
00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,200
Speaker 10: Sorry damn, yeah.

711
00:41:07,400 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 6: Yeah, we're just going to be sorry. So how did you.

712
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:16,200
Speaker 6: I mean, was.

713
00:41:18,239 --> 00:41:20,879
Speaker 5: What I'm trying to get to. Is what I'm trying

714
00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:24,080
Speaker 5: to get to, was that was there? Because the thing,

715
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 5: the thing that coincides with you guys transitioning to pop

716
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 5: music was that from a monetary standpoint, it was also

717
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 5: very lucrative. And that's that's one of the myths I

718
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 5: wanted to spell because I know that a lot of

719
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:43,360
Speaker 5: the downbeat critics were saying that, oh, Miles playing with

720
00:41:43,400 --> 00:41:45,160
Speaker 5: the Grateful Dead and do all this stuff like he's

721
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:47,359
Speaker 5: just trying to make some money, like forget the art.

722
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:49,960
Speaker 5: But if you listen to music, there's really nothing that

723
00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 5: just about it. It's just about it. So you know,

724
00:41:55,040 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 5: was it a thing of like, Okay, well it's time

725
00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 5: for us to get paid. And did you produced the

726
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 5: entire Blue Lights in the Basement album.

727
00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 1: No, it's not that one song.

728
00:42:04,520 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 8: I say, it's the story behind every every one of

729
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:10,759
Speaker 8: the songs. Yeah, we're doing that album. Quite frankly, I

730
00:42:10,880 --> 00:42:16,400
Speaker 8: was like, you know, we had a dinner break. I

731
00:42:16,440 --> 00:42:19,920
Speaker 8: have been working on these these changes dean ble b

732
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 8: d b boo b blea bbe, So we take this

733
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:27,440
Speaker 8: break and so Reggie's there, I said, Reggie, like, so

734
00:42:27,520 --> 00:42:30,560
Speaker 8: we I played for him and then we put the

735
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 8: B section. He puts the B section over and over.

736
00:42:34,680 --> 00:42:36,879
Speaker 8: I'm recording it when the Cats come back.

737
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:37,440
Speaker 10: I just want to.

738
00:42:37,400 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 8: Make a cassette. I had no name for the song

739
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:41,040
Speaker 8: or nothing.

740
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: We played it.

741
00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:48,040
Speaker 8: I'm making a cassette. Roberto walks in and said, what's that.

742
00:42:48,560 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 8: I said, close, I get to you. That was just

743
00:42:50,800 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 8: off the dome.

744
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 6: Nothing.

745
00:42:54,640 --> 00:42:55,680
Speaker 8: This is straight up the truth.

746
00:42:55,719 --> 00:42:59,319
Speaker 10: And I'm like and she says, can I record that?

747
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 10: I'm like yes, she said, can I.

748
00:43:01,560 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 8: Change the key? Yes? Any key you want.

749
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:04,319
Speaker 4: Wow.

750
00:43:04,680 --> 00:43:11,560
Speaker 8: We cut it that night. Originally she did it, and

751
00:43:11,600 --> 00:43:14,239
Speaker 8: then after thinking about it, her and Donnie hadn't done

752
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 8: anything in years.

753
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:21,520
Speaker 10: Donnie comes in and it's like, wow, but I want to.

754
00:43:21,520 --> 00:43:25,319
Speaker 8: Get to that point. You're talking about the bread. Like

755
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:27,319
Speaker 8: I said, if you do something because you just want

756
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 8: to adapt for that, that's not real. You ain't. That's

757
00:43:30,600 --> 00:43:34,160
Speaker 8: not from here. I was avant garde acoustic because it

758
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:37,360
Speaker 8: was from here. It was metamorphosis. That's where I wanted

759
00:43:37,360 --> 00:43:42,759
Speaker 8: to go, and it was not looked positively from the

760
00:43:42,840 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 8: jazz cats. I had one cat walk up to me.

761
00:43:46,760 --> 00:43:54,279
Speaker 8: I'm not gonna mention his name. Famous bass player and said, man,

762
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:58,320
Speaker 8: you ought to be ashamed of yourself. You're playing this music,

763
00:43:58,680 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 8: you know, and you know, man, I said, but you know,

764
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:03,879
Speaker 8: one thing, like I said, one thing that you learned

765
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,480
Speaker 8: with Myles is courage, because if you didn't have courage

766
00:44:07,480 --> 00:44:10,040
Speaker 8: in that band, you'd have been snuffed on it with

767
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:12,720
Speaker 8: the stuff they were writing about us. And one another

768
00:44:12,800 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 8: lesson I learned from Myles, when you cross the bridge,

769
00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,080
Speaker 8: burn it so you can't even go back.

770
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 6: Damn, It's like.

771
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:30,280
Speaker 5: I'm interviewing you, but then I gotta absorb what you're saying,

772
00:44:30,360 --> 00:44:32,480
Speaker 5: like you're right.

773
00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,160
Speaker 10: Because look, you can always look back.

774
00:44:37,719 --> 00:44:39,799
Speaker 8: If you don't even allow yourself to have a rear

775
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:45,440
Speaker 8: view mirror, you only can go forward. Yeah, think.

776
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 7: Kind of think about that?

777
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 6: Well you think about that?

778
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,000
Speaker 14: Can we talk about the songwriting process and changes from

779
00:44:53,040 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 14: being a jazz musician to a pop musician because I

780
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,160
Speaker 14: feel like to me, I was raised on jazz two

781
00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 14: and there's a complexity to it harmonica or otherwise, and

782
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 14: then you go into popping, people assume that it's less.

783
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 14: So what's the transition, what's the metamorphois?

784
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:07,719
Speaker 6: Is there?

785
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:13,560
Speaker 8: Jazz? How I approached it, learning how to master complexity

786
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 8: what's the secret to pop music mastering simplicity?

787
00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:27,920
Speaker 10: You put it together, it's simplexity, thank you.

788
00:45:29,440 --> 00:45:33,839
Speaker 12: Now, you just make it up words. That's what we did, right,

789
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 12: all right? So I'm really glad you're here spell checked

790
00:45:39,320 --> 00:45:41,080
Speaker 12: in like that one. Go ahead, I'm glad you're.

791
00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:44,280
Speaker 1: Here because the thing is is that I still believe

792
00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 1: that simplicity is the hard How do you We talk

793
00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: about that all the time, But who taught you that?

794
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 5: Because even now, like, okay, so the cats that I

795
00:45:57,200 --> 00:46:00,960
Speaker 5: deal with and work with, now, who are your jazz cats?

796
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 5: I can't beat them over the head enough and tell

797
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,359
Speaker 5: them like yo, that's too much, like tone it down

798
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:10,480
Speaker 5: a little bit. And you know, part of it is

799
00:46:11,760 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 5: they're they're pride if you will of like you know,

800
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 5: I don't want to appear to be too simple or

801
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:23,120
Speaker 5: too pop. It's and it's like, yeah, okay, we we

802
00:46:23,239 --> 00:46:25,719
Speaker 5: now live at the age of the gospel chops era.

803
00:46:26,040 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 5: You got to show off your musicianship to let people

804
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:32,719
Speaker 5: know that you're serious. But like, who is there to

805
00:46:32,960 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 5: teach you? These are this is the basic fiber of nobody.

806
00:46:39,560 --> 00:46:41,800
Speaker 5: That's a hard thing to do. Like you just you

807
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,360
Speaker 5: can't go from on the corner to the closer I

808
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 5: get to your well.

809
00:46:47,760 --> 00:46:53,719
Speaker 10: Yes you can, but you know what getting back because

810
00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,360
Speaker 10: I did not address what you said. And this is

811
00:46:56,440 --> 00:46:57,080
Speaker 10: don It's truth.

812
00:46:57,120 --> 00:46:57,279
Speaker 8: Man.

813
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:02,600
Speaker 10: We never thought about money. Now that sounds oh yeah, yeah,

814
00:47:02,640 --> 00:47:03,320
Speaker 10: bright bullshit.

815
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:09,880
Speaker 8: I believe you're trying to master and art form, and

816
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 8: especially with jazz cats we started, you started out. There

817
00:47:14,760 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 8: wasn't a lot of respect for R and B. Now

818
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 8: remember now, I saw Tony Williams, I studied Elvin Jones,

819
00:47:27,360 --> 00:47:29,160
Speaker 8: So all this stuff out here now, man, look are

820
00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 8: you kidding? I heard that live. I actually sat right

821
00:47:34,640 --> 00:47:37,640
Speaker 8: next to Tony Williams when he was with Miles. I

822
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:39,320
Speaker 8: was in the I was in the audience, and it

823
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 8: was like first time I went to hear Elvin Jones.

824
00:47:43,800 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 8: All this stuff for me is regurgitation. And drummers especially.

825
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:52,960
Speaker 10: Did not respect the two and the four. They dismissed it.

826
00:47:53,239 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 8: That's the hardest thing in the world, man, How do

827
00:47:57,920 --> 00:48:01,239
Speaker 8: I keep that interesting thing to you for four or

828
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,480
Speaker 8: five minutes? You can look, you can always rely on,

829
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,200
Speaker 8: like I said, technique because it's sometimes just masturbation. Man,

830
00:48:09,760 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 8: I'm gonna show you all this and I'm gonna do

831
00:48:11,520 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 8: why again Miles, stop talking and playing in paragraphs?

832
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:18,920
Speaker 10: What's your what's your quotation?

833
00:48:19,600 --> 00:48:20,880
Speaker 8: What am I taking from it?

834
00:48:22,840 --> 00:48:25,919
Speaker 5: Like I wish if that was if there was one

835
00:48:26,120 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 5: thing that people learned from me or whatever, like you know,

836
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,879
Speaker 5: and cats are always asking me. I try to put

837
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 5: that out there and like it's harder to resist to day,

838
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:40,880
Speaker 5: like you know there, I've been on a few gospel

839
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 5: chop sites where they're like man quest love said a bit,

840
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:47,480
Speaker 5: why you always hat an old time that sort of thing,

841
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 5: you know, But yeah, I wish that people could learn

842
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 5: that lesson that you can get even further by playing

843
00:48:56,080 --> 00:48:57,560
Speaker 5: less than I think that.

844
00:48:57,600 --> 00:49:01,279
Speaker 9: Comes with the age, though, yes I'm on, but that's

845
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 9: saying like when you're young, you know, well you're young,

846
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 9: you're insecure, so you're doing all that ship because you're

847
00:49:07,200 --> 00:49:08,360
Speaker 9: not really securing what you have.

848
00:49:08,520 --> 00:49:10,080
Speaker 4: But the older you get, you realize you got it,

849
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:12,359
Speaker 4: so you don't got to flound it. It makes sense.

850
00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:16,120
Speaker 4: How was your so how long were you with Miles from.

851
00:49:16,040 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 11: On the corner to what about four and a half

852
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 11: years something like that, and then from that point was

853
00:49:20,800 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 11: that when you went into uh.

854
00:49:22,160 --> 00:49:25,759
Speaker 8: Well when I left Miles, well, Miles stopped. We were

855
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:28,080
Speaker 8: playing the gig, and and and this actually I didn't

856
00:49:28,080 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 8: finish the statement. I said that it's one of the

857
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 8: things that we in that the cast in the band

858
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:39,359
Speaker 8: we always lament. Herbie had head Hunters came out. There

859
00:49:39,480 --> 00:49:42,800
Speaker 8: was like a tour, national tour set up with Miles

860
00:49:42,840 --> 00:49:46,440
Speaker 8: and Herbie who We played two gigs.

861
00:49:47,440 --> 00:49:48,200
Speaker 10: Miles got sick.

862
00:49:48,239 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 8: We played Upstate New York and we played Saint Louis.

863
00:49:51,400 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 8: Miles got sick, and that was the night that he stopped.

864
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 8: As it turned out, it was going to be for

865
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:02,960
Speaker 8: five years. Me and Reggie broke, not broke, but you know,

866
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 8: Miles ain't playing. We went on and said, okay, let's

867
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 8: let's really do this. Michael Henderson had established his solo career.

868
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 5: Well, let's throw you off a little bit. Woll he

869
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 5: was such a velvety singer. Well wait, he went to

870
00:50:17,320 --> 00:50:18,479
Speaker 5: Stevie for a second, right.

871
00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,839
Speaker 8: Michael Henderson was with Stevie. He was playing on all

872
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:23,480
Speaker 8: that motown stuff when he was fourteen.

873
00:50:23,640 --> 00:50:26,880
Speaker 1: Man, he was with Stevie first. Then he went yeah, okay, but.

874
00:50:26,960 --> 00:50:31,240
Speaker 8: He was he was heir apparent to James Jamison.

875
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 6: Yes he was.

876
00:50:33,239 --> 00:50:37,279
Speaker 8: See people don't know that Michael Henderson is playing on

877
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:42,640
Speaker 8: some of the tracks that came out later on Oh man, damn,

878
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:47,120
Speaker 8: I hate this old old Heimers No No, no, no, no,

879
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 8: one of the greatest albums ever.

880
00:50:53,280 --> 00:50:57,880
Speaker 10: Oh this is crazy, Stevie, No no, No, what's going on?

881
00:50:58,320 --> 00:50:58,560
Speaker 4: Okay?

882
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 10: Michael played on some of the tracks that weren't released

883
00:51:02,520 --> 00:51:03,799
Speaker 10: on the original album.

884
00:51:04,120 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 1: Okay, came out years later on the reissues.

885
00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:10,800
Speaker 10: Yeah, man, Michael Henderson was that listen listen.

886
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,719
Speaker 5: To uh for those that are able to listen to, uh,

887
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:19,000
Speaker 5: what's what's the Stevie Live? And there's a version of

888
00:51:19,160 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 5: I Was Made the Lover in which I feel like

889
00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:27,000
Speaker 5: that's Michael Henderson's greatest James Jamerson Michael, There's there's a

890
00:51:27,120 --> 00:51:30,160
Speaker 5: live version of I Was Made to Lover top of

891
00:51:30,200 --> 00:51:33,280
Speaker 5: the Talk of the Yeah, if you listen to Stevie

892
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:35,600
Speaker 5: Wonder Talk of the Town live album, which came out

893
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 5: like sixty seven, there's a version of I.

894
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 1: Was Made to Lover that is like, it's it's me

895
00:51:45,520 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 1: to me.

896
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 5: It's the best live display of Jamerson Esque one finger

897
00:51:50,239 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 5: playing ever.

898
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:52,080
Speaker 2: So.

899
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:54,759
Speaker 1: But did you know that he had that voice on him?

900
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:58,319
Speaker 10: Or no, but no, no, no, that's bullshit. Yeah, I did.

901
00:52:00,080 --> 00:52:00,200
Speaker 1: You know?

902
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 10: I remember Michael came to my room.

903
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 8: We were in Japan, and uh, Santana was there and

904
00:52:10,680 --> 00:52:14,719
Speaker 8: me and Santana was talking and Michael came in and.

905
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:17,200
Speaker 10: Yes, Santana.

906
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:22,040
Speaker 8: Uh, it's crazy, man, it's crazy. You know.

907
00:52:22,880 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 10: Santana was like to this day, when Carlos and I see.

908
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:31,480
Speaker 8: Each other, it's almost we get teary. Santana loved Miles

909
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,759
Speaker 8: and so the story Michael said, may Mary tunes. When

910
00:52:35,760 --> 00:52:37,360
Speaker 8: you finished coming up, I wanna play something for you.

911
00:52:38,040 --> 00:52:42,319
Speaker 8: So I go up to his room and he get

912
00:52:42,360 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 8: pulls out his base.

913
00:52:44,880 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 10: Doom Doom, Doom, Doom, Doom Doom.

914
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 8: Singing yes you are, I said, God, we were in

915
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 8: Japan when he wrote that. It was with Myles. Obviously,

916
00:52:57,560 --> 00:53:02,040
Speaker 8: years later it comes out with the Norman Connor's and

917
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:04,720
Speaker 8: that's what launched Michael's career as a solo artist.

918
00:53:05,920 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 5: What was just as a Philadelphian and me not ever

919
00:53:11,080 --> 00:53:14,960
Speaker 5: seeing any clip of Norman Connor's whatsoever on YouTube or anything.

920
00:53:15,920 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: What was Norman's.

921
00:53:20,120 --> 00:53:23,360
Speaker 5: Thatcher as a drummer? I mean I know he was

922
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 5: a drummer. I heard him solo once. The thing was

923
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:26,960
Speaker 5: a song called so in Love. It was like the

924
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 5: middle side too on that album. But where did he

925
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 5: stand in the eyes of drummers? You can tell the truth,

926
00:53:35,960 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 5: I know you.

927
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 10: Know what, Sometimes silence is more truthful.

928
00:53:41,480 --> 00:53:42,680
Speaker 1: Wait, I kind of skipped something.

929
00:53:43,239 --> 00:53:45,880
Speaker 6: Why did you never? Why did you.

930
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,520
Speaker 5: Choose traditional percussion as opposed to a trap drum set

931
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:51,959
Speaker 5: to play?

932
00:53:55,120 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 10: It's what touched me. I say this.

933
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 8: The three elements for the creative process is intuition, intellect,

934
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 8: and technique. Intuition is first, you don't know why you

935
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,440
Speaker 8: love the draft. You don't know why you want to sing.

936
00:54:11,520 --> 00:54:12,839
Speaker 8: You don't know why you want to paint. You don't

937
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 8: know why you want to write poetry. It's intuitive.

938
00:54:17,280 --> 00:54:17,800
Speaker 10: Intellect.

939
00:54:18,600 --> 00:54:20,640
Speaker 8: Once you get into this and you start getting your

940
00:54:20,760 --> 00:54:23,560
Speaker 8: you know, a better understanding. Now you know why you're

941
00:54:23,600 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 8: drawing to it. Technique is where you sharpen your tools.

942
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 8: Time served, how much time you putting in. I don't

943
00:54:29,840 --> 00:54:31,680
Speaker 8: care what I'm hearing if I can't play it for you.

944
00:54:33,200 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 8: So intuition, intellect, and technique.

945
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:39,680
Speaker 5: Okay, my last sort of serious jazz question before we

946
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 5: go into your your your your your second phase of

947
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:48,360
Speaker 5: your pop stuff. I always wanted to know, Okay, So

948
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:54,799
Speaker 5: since Miles was pushing me envelope and what envelope There

949
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:58,640
Speaker 5: was no envelope, but you know when he stopped playing

950
00:54:58,640 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 5: in nineteen seventy five, there's there's always been this debate.

951
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:05,400
Speaker 5: And you know, because you brought up Stanley Crouch, and

952
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 5: I know that a lot of jazz snob snobs kind

953
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 5: of kind of scoffed at Stanley for endorsing Winton and

954
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:20,240
Speaker 5: the hole let's go back to nineteen forty six bebop

955
00:55:20,400 --> 00:55:24,520
Speaker 5: sort of thing. What were your feelings on like the

956
00:55:25,239 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 5: you know, like the the David Murray's, the m base,

957
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:35,440
Speaker 5: the kind of the first generation tree posts, miles of

958
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,319
Speaker 5: pushing that envelope, because I know that those cats felt

959
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 5: like damn like it was our turn to get the

960
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:45,800
Speaker 5: baton next. And then Crouch comes in and you know,

961
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,800
Speaker 5: they put Winton in a suit and then suddenly he puffies.

962
00:55:51,440 --> 00:55:52,040
Speaker 1: Us back to.

963
00:55:54,080 --> 00:55:57,479
Speaker 5: Back to nineteen fifty would bebop like not taking him forward.

964
00:55:57,960 --> 00:55:59,600
Speaker 5: And I know that you know, well, all due respect,

965
00:56:00,120 --> 00:56:03,839
Speaker 5: stand that Winton is a traditionalist. And I do believe

966
00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:08,479
Speaker 5: that there should be whatever torch bearers for whatever people

967
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:11,320
Speaker 5: feel that are passionate about their era. Like I'd be

968
00:56:11,400 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 5: lying to you if I said that, you know, my

969
00:56:13,080 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 5: era of eighty eight to ninety nine era hip hop

970
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:20,080
Speaker 5: wasn't my you know what, I'll champion the most right,

971
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,319
Speaker 5: But I mean, what was your feeling as far as

972
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:29,520
Speaker 5: the pushing the envelope era of jazz sort of got

973
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,920
Speaker 5: white or washed or white washed away into.

974
00:56:34,320 --> 00:56:36,280
Speaker 6: Where Winton took it in the eighties.

975
00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,959
Speaker 10: And here's here's what I felt. It's a great question.

976
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:49,800
Speaker 10: It was tracing paper. You know, you have really you

977
00:56:50,000 --> 00:56:52,880
Speaker 10: just put the tracing paper over something and you just

978
00:56:53,520 --> 00:56:54,320
Speaker 10: what's new about it?

979
00:56:55,480 --> 00:56:58,040
Speaker 8: What was the main thing in jazz? Cold?

980
00:56:58,360 --> 00:57:00,680
Speaker 10: Everybody pushing that little.

981
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 8: You just playing put And I'm not just dogging wit

982
00:57:04,719 --> 00:57:07,520
Speaker 8: and I'm just saying a whole generation, let's play like

983
00:57:07,600 --> 00:57:10,960
Speaker 8: we in nineteen sixty four. And this is hip that's

984
00:57:11,000 --> 00:57:11,640
Speaker 8: not hip to me.

985
00:57:12,520 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 4: Because it's been done already.

986
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:16,680
Speaker 8: I don't care that you can play train solo on

987
00:57:16,800 --> 00:57:21,760
Speaker 8: giant steps. Who the fuck are you that's trained?

988
00:57:22,280 --> 00:57:25,640
Speaker 5: This is one of the heavily in the jazz world, Like,

989
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:29,120
Speaker 5: this is one of the most heavily debated arguments. And

990
00:57:29,200 --> 00:57:31,040
Speaker 5: the thing is is that I feel like I'm in

991
00:57:31,080 --> 00:57:34,880
Speaker 5: the middle because because of my age. Do you remember

992
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,480
Speaker 5: the year that Michael Jackson won all those Grammys in

993
00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 5: like eighty three, eighty four. Well, subsequently Winton was also

994
00:57:41,280 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 5: pulling that feet. He won like five Grammys yea two

995
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 5: for classical, three for jazz. And there was a point

996
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:50,400
Speaker 5: where I think in eighty four, my dad was going

997
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 5: to ease up on the whole you gotta rehearse five

998
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:55,320
Speaker 5: hours a day thing, like, Okay, he's getting older, he

999
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:57,840
Speaker 5: wants to play video games, talk to girls, to hanging

1000
00:57:57,880 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 5: the ball. He was gonna start laxing a little bit

1001
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:03,880
Speaker 5: it And then went and got on stage and says, look, Dad,

1002
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:07,160
Speaker 5: I really just want to thank you for making me

1003
00:58:07,360 --> 00:58:09,920
Speaker 5: practice eight to ten hours every night.

1004
00:58:10,000 --> 00:58:12,600
Speaker 1: And that heard that shit and he doubled my verse.

1005
00:58:13,880 --> 00:58:15,560
Speaker 1: How would you do seven hours in that basement?

1006
00:58:16,040 --> 00:58:19,280
Speaker 5: Like? But the thing was is that you know to

1007
00:58:19,760 --> 00:58:23,280
Speaker 5: off the Yeah, I member, But to a thirteen year

1008
00:58:23,320 --> 00:58:29,360
Speaker 5: old na not knowing better, it's you know, I mean,

1009
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:31,840
Speaker 5: there wasn't a jazz snob in my life until Rich

1010
00:58:31,920 --> 00:58:34,439
Speaker 5: came along when he was when I was like twenty three.

1011
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,960
Speaker 5: It's like, man, fuck Winton, Like he took it backwards

1012
00:58:38,000 --> 00:58:39,440
Speaker 5: and he wasn't pressing the envelope.

1013
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,720
Speaker 1: So I think, but isn't it also important for people.

1014
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:46,560
Speaker 5: To know, absolutely, because without winning, I wouldn't have known

1015
00:58:46,560 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 5: about King Oliver and Louis.

1016
00:58:48,680 --> 00:58:52,960
Speaker 8: And but that's when jazz started coming out of colleges. Brother,

1017
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 8: that was the beginning of I gotta go. I'm going

1018
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:02,680
Speaker 8: to study jazz at the university and play man. Why

1019
00:59:02,720 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 8: do we still listen to kind of blue? Miles went

1020
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 8: to Juilliard in the forties and he said, I might

1021
00:59:10,120 --> 00:59:13,000
Speaker 8: have went a couple of months. I'm hanging out on

1022
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:18,480
Speaker 8: fifty second Street with Bird and Dizzey. When jazz started

1023
00:59:18,560 --> 00:59:21,600
Speaker 8: coming out of the universities, that's when the ship was.

1024
00:59:22,640 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 8: Everybody could play the same study this solo, play every

1025
00:59:27,080 --> 00:59:29,680
Speaker 8: note this, where was it? That's not creative to me?

1026
00:59:32,080 --> 00:59:34,080
Speaker 2: No, it's different, right, he was like that Ian that

1027
00:59:34,120 --> 00:59:35,520
Speaker 2: way like stuff.

1028
00:59:36,040 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 8: And I'm not against studying. I'm I'm self totally self taught.

1029
00:59:39,520 --> 00:59:44,160
Speaker 8: I don't recommend that you know everybody? Yeah, well yeah,

1030
00:59:44,240 --> 00:59:47,800
Speaker 8: I was very fortunate, Uh, because I could. I went

1031
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 8: from playing to writing, putting the band together, then scoring

1032
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:54,800
Speaker 8: film and television New York Undercover.

1033
00:59:56,680 --> 01:00:03,840
Speaker 10: No, I'm I'm at But what are you bringing to it?

1034
01:00:04,760 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 8: If you're not bringing again? And I'm not castigating the

1035
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,800
Speaker 8: Catcher came out of colleges. But just because you come

1036
01:00:12,920 --> 01:00:16,520
Speaker 8: out of college. And then the colleges started hiring. My

1037
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 8: father's taught at Queen's College, man for twenty years.

1038
01:00:20,400 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 6: The same thing is happening.

1039
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:23,760
Speaker 8: They started hiring all the jazz case.

1040
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:25,200
Speaker 6: Wait a minute, to teach.

1041
01:00:29,080 --> 01:00:33,640
Speaker 1: You, Yes, I teach college. Wow, I'm sorry you teach

1042
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:33,960
Speaker 1: with me.

1043
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:34,760
Speaker 2: I was.

1044
01:00:36,480 --> 01:00:39,520
Speaker 8: About so winning was the beginning of that. And I'm

1045
01:00:39,560 --> 01:00:44,480
Speaker 8: not dogging, but I'm just saying, stop saying that you

1046
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:47,680
Speaker 8: are the torch bearer. I'm not interested in the torch.

1047
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:50,000
Speaker 8: I've already burned that bridge.

1048
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 2: There you go, man, wait before you get into the pop,

1049
01:00:55,160 --> 01:00:57,400
Speaker 2: I gotta ask. I'm just curious about.

1050
01:00:57,360 --> 01:00:58,520
Speaker 1: Are you about to skip the line.

1051
01:00:58,560 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 2: I'm not going to skip the line.

1052
01:00:59,440 --> 01:01:00,320
Speaker 1: I'm going back, Okay.

1053
01:01:00,520 --> 01:01:02,520
Speaker 2: I was going to go back real quick because James

1054
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:05,840
Speaker 2: to May was not always jams him to So I

1055
01:01:06,000 --> 01:01:08,080
Speaker 2: just wanted to know what happened in your life and

1056
01:01:08,240 --> 01:01:11,120
Speaker 2: to cause this change, and because I know it's an

1057
01:01:11,120 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 2: activist side of you as well, it's a whole spiritual.

1058
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 8: No I'm not.

1059
01:01:14,560 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 2: I'm an atheist all right, oh okay, but always since

1060
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:20,800
Speaker 2: I was eighteen, since she was eighteen.

1061
01:01:20,840 --> 01:01:24,960
Speaker 5: So then the part, oh, well wait, since you said that,

1062
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:28,440
Speaker 5: how can you describe in such.

1063
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:31,800
Speaker 8: A vivid.

1064
01:01:33,800 --> 01:01:35,160
Speaker 6: Terms of of of.

1065
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: Of that organ, that music orgasm that you had with

1066
01:01:40,200 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: my such a spiritual experience and.

1067
01:01:42,520 --> 01:01:43,200
Speaker 6: Be an atheist.

1068
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 1: I'm just curious as to like none of that was

1069
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,040
Speaker 1: spiritual to you or atheists can't.

1070
01:01:48,840 --> 01:01:50,760
Speaker 8: Be spirit I was just thinking to myself, can you

1071
01:01:51,840 --> 01:01:52,400
Speaker 8: I don't know if.

1072
01:01:52,320 --> 01:01:55,840
Speaker 14: Atheists can be spiritual? Is an atheist no religion but spiritual?

1073
01:01:56,040 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 14: This is a whole other, separate thing.

1074
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,400
Speaker 1: I didn't realize that just devoid of spirit.

1075
01:02:06,120 --> 01:02:08,320
Speaker 10: Here's where I started. You know, I was in neophyte

1076
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:09,440
Speaker 10: when I was eighteen.

1077
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:13,200
Speaker 8: You know, man, religion. One day I woke up when

1078
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 8: I was older and I said, wait a minute. You

1079
01:02:16,960 --> 01:02:22,320
Speaker 8: can't dog religion, and you claim you're an atheist. I said,

1080
01:02:23,120 --> 01:02:26,480
Speaker 8: they can't prove that God exists to me, but I

1081
01:02:26,600 --> 01:02:31,120
Speaker 8: can't prove that it doesn't. And I learned to disrespect religion.

1082
01:02:32,320 --> 01:02:34,840
Speaker 8: Whatever you need to get through this thing, man, So

1083
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:40,120
Speaker 8: I don't you it's not I respect the word spiritual

1084
01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,120
Speaker 8: and all that. I'm just, but I need to be

1085
01:02:42,160 --> 01:02:47,680
Speaker 8: intellectually honest. I'm stuff coming out of my mouth. You

1086
01:02:47,800 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 8: might think I'm religious, but I'm saying, no, no, it's not.

1087
01:02:50,080 --> 01:02:51,920
Speaker 8: So I don't know what you would call it. I

1088
01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 8: just know what I know, and I know what I've

1089
01:02:54,800 --> 01:02:57,280
Speaker 8: the feelings, whatever that, whatever that is.

1090
01:03:02,840 --> 01:03:06,800
Speaker 7: I have a question before we leave the jazz world. Goto.

1091
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 6: Yeah.

1092
01:03:09,360 --> 01:03:11,240
Speaker 13: I mean, we've been talking a lot about Miles and

1093
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:17,800
Speaker 13: I recently sort of realized that what Goto brought and

1094
01:03:18,120 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 13: can you just speak a little bit about that, because

1095
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 13: I don't think a lot of people know about him.

1096
01:03:21,600 --> 01:03:24,560
Speaker 8: All right, So I meant sitting at the crib and

1097
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 8: Herb Alpert called me, and Herb said, Tunes, I want

1098
01:03:29,720 --> 01:03:32,120
Speaker 8: you to come in and make the session with Gotto.

1099
01:03:32,160 --> 01:03:34,360
Speaker 8: I'd heard of Gotto, I'd heard some of the stuff,

1100
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:36,600
Speaker 8: but I kind of equated and he came out. He

1101
01:03:36,680 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 8: was coming out of Pharaoh Sondas, and I had already

1102
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,240
Speaker 8: played with Pharaoh. But I remember that when I went

1103
01:03:42,280 --> 01:03:47,760
Speaker 8: to the session. When I walked in, these were the

1104
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 8: R and B Cats. It was pretty pretty pretty I

1105
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:57,120
Speaker 8: think every Gale and Cornell Duprie and I walked in

1106
01:03:58,040 --> 01:04:01,560
Speaker 8: because at that time, Ralph McDonald was the percussions. You know,

1107
01:04:01,680 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 8: in all the sessions. I'm like I'm coming out of jazz.

1108
01:04:06,080 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 8: So I walked in and it was like, who's this,

1109
01:04:09,640 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 8: you know, and I got like a little cold. I

1110
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,000
Speaker 8: didn't mind. I'm setting up. So when I walk in

1111
01:04:14,000 --> 01:04:16,240
Speaker 8: and everybody's be like, well, who's this guy? And then

1112
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:20,000
Speaker 8: herb walks out from the control hoof tooms and uh

1113
01:04:20,080 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 8: we hugged and then you know, obviously everything loosened up,

1114
01:04:22,880 --> 01:04:25,439
Speaker 8: and uh it was a session for Gotto. Right after

1115
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 8: the session, Got told his wife she was more like

1116
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 8: the business man. She came to me, she said, Goto

1117
01:04:31,800 --> 01:04:34,040
Speaker 8: wanted to know, you know, would you if you have

1118
01:04:34,160 --> 01:04:36,840
Speaker 8: some time, would you make you know this tour? And

1119
01:04:36,960 --> 01:04:38,800
Speaker 8: I said sure, And so I ended up doing about

1120
01:04:38,800 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 8: two or three albums with Gottow and uh toured with

1121
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:44,640
Speaker 8: him and we were really cool, really cool.

1122
01:04:46,080 --> 01:04:47,040
Speaker 10: That was herb outfort though.

1123
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:50,200
Speaker 13: Yeah, but that was that was a later album maybe

1124
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 13: than these other these other ones like these, uh Flying Dutchman,

1125
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 13: Bob Thiel. Oh, so like you know, I mean, I

1126
01:04:57,320 --> 01:04:58,800
Speaker 13: I know that that was like a time in La

1127
01:04:58,880 --> 01:05:02,200
Speaker 13: Puma thing. You're talking about the one of the first

1128
01:05:02,280 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 13: record I played herbs producing.

1129
01:05:04,320 --> 01:05:08,080
Speaker 10: Now you talking about Flying Dutchman. I got please allow

1130
01:05:08,200 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 10: me I gotta say it right, like I said, while

1131
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:10,760
Speaker 10: it's right here.

1132
01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 8: I actually recorded with Duke Ellington, Wow damn flying on

1133
01:05:16,280 --> 01:05:21,320
Speaker 8: a flying Dutchment Flying. When I met Duke nineteen seventy one.

1134
01:05:21,840 --> 01:05:23,600
Speaker 8: On that first tour I was talking about with Miles

1135
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 8: it was it was Miles Davis. It was George Wien

1136
01:05:27,880 --> 01:05:32,720
Speaker 8: Tour for you, Miles Davis, Rasian Rowland, Kirk, Joe Henderson

1137
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:35,040
Speaker 8: and Freddy Hubbert and BB King.

1138
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:39,200
Speaker 6: Jesus.

1139
01:05:40,280 --> 01:05:44,360
Speaker 10: I remember one night, Oh, okay, God, this y'all taking me,

1140
01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:45,480
Speaker 10: this is deed.

1141
01:05:45,320 --> 01:05:46,040
Speaker 1: Take us back. Man.

1142
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 8: I get to the I get to the concert early

1143
01:05:51,200 --> 01:05:52,960
Speaker 8: one night. So I'm sitting in the room, you know,

1144
01:05:53,120 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 8: big dress room. The door flies open. Look it's Duke Ellington.

1145
01:06:00,360 --> 01:06:02,680
Speaker 10: I'm like, you know, oh my god.

1146
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:06,640
Speaker 8: And uh, you know, I didn't you know, I didn't

1147
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 8: know what to say other than mister Ellington, you know.

1148
01:06:10,320 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 8: He said, yeah, son, I like, you know, I like

1149
01:06:11,880 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 8: what you're doing.

1150
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 5: You know.

1151
01:06:12,600 --> 01:06:16,360
Speaker 8: I heard you one another night and I remember I

1152
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:21,480
Speaker 8: was so awestruck. I just said, man, mister Ellington, tell

1153
01:06:21,520 --> 01:06:24,080
Speaker 8: me what types of music is?

1154
01:06:24,320 --> 01:06:24,400
Speaker 10: Uh?

1155
01:06:24,520 --> 01:06:25,640
Speaker 8: You know, it is the best, he said.

1156
01:06:26,200 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 10: He said, good.

1157
01:06:28,240 --> 01:06:30,360
Speaker 8: He says, only two types of music, good and bad,

1158
01:06:31,200 --> 01:06:35,720
Speaker 8: not genre. Now here's a funny story. One night, I

1159
01:06:35,840 --> 01:06:40,040
Speaker 8: missed the bus going back to the hotel, so I

1160
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:44,080
Speaker 8: catch a ride with the Duke Ellington band because their

1161
01:06:44,120 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 8: bus left, you.

1162
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:46,640
Speaker 10: Know later, so I caught.

1163
01:06:47,000 --> 01:06:49,200
Speaker 8: So I'm sitting on this bus and all these cats man,

1164
01:06:49,280 --> 01:06:55,320
Speaker 8: you know, Harry Corney, Paul Gonzalez and uh. I think.

1165
01:06:55,360 --> 01:06:56,960
Speaker 10: We was a couple of months into the tour and

1166
01:06:57,080 --> 01:06:58,840
Speaker 10: I was fried. But then one night is man.

1167
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 8: So I was sitting next to Paul gonsalads and he said,

1168
01:07:03,680 --> 01:07:06,160
Speaker 8: he said, yeah, son, ye know, you know, I said.

1169
01:07:06,200 --> 01:07:07,680
Speaker 8: He said, you look a little tired. I said, Man,

1170
01:07:07,760 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 8: I'm going out. He said, man, how long you know?

1171
01:07:10,880 --> 01:07:12,680
Speaker 10: I said, Man, We've been out there almost two months.

1172
01:07:14,040 --> 01:07:17,920
Speaker 8: He said, man, he said, yo, look this is a

1173
01:07:17,920 --> 01:07:20,880
Speaker 8: little punk motherfucker. I said.

1174
01:07:21,400 --> 01:07:23,680
Speaker 10: We worked three hundred and forty days.

1175
01:07:23,800 --> 01:07:26,479
Speaker 8: A year for the last forty years.

1176
01:07:27,360 --> 01:07:27,640
Speaker 6: God.

1177
01:07:28,200 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 8: I got a ride back to the hotel with that,

1178
01:07:30,440 --> 01:07:32,120
Speaker 8: and they just fell out laughing like.

1179
01:07:34,080 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1180
01:07:34,600 --> 01:07:37,960
Speaker 8: Now, while I'm thinking I gotta tell you this, I'm

1181
01:07:38,000 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 8: with my I'm over Miles's house CAVN. Remember I was

1182
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,680
Speaker 8: telling you the story coming over. That's my nephew Kevin

1183
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,880
Speaker 8: I'm over Miles's house one night, man, I mean one

1184
01:07:47,960 --> 01:07:50,440
Speaker 8: day the mail comes.

1185
01:07:53,200 --> 01:07:54,040
Speaker 10: I'm in in one.

1186
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:56,720
Speaker 8: I see Miles one thing. Miles was a great cook,

1187
01:07:57,280 --> 01:07:59,280
Speaker 8: so sometimes he just called, man, come on over and

1188
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:02,000
Speaker 8: I'm gonna fix you know, I mean, hell of the

1189
01:08:02,160 --> 01:08:04,840
Speaker 8: cook cook. So I'm there.

1190
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:07,320
Speaker 10: He gets the mail and I'm not looking at him.

1191
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:09,720
Speaker 8: I'm a little over the side of the room.

1192
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:13,680
Speaker 10: And he says, oh ship, And I thought something happened.

1193
01:08:14,400 --> 01:08:15,320
Speaker 8: So I said, what what's up?

1194
01:08:15,320 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 10: Brother?

1195
01:08:16,600 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 8: He just hands me the mail. It was a Christmas card.

1196
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:22,439
Speaker 10: From Duke Ellington.

1197
01:08:22,880 --> 01:08:28,040
Speaker 8: Wow, but it was in the spring. Miles said, is

1198
01:08:28,080 --> 01:08:32,599
Speaker 8: this the hippie ship you've ever seen? He said, he said,

1199
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,920
Speaker 8: Duke is dying. Duke sent all his cats Christmas cards

1200
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:41,120
Speaker 8: when he was dying. Oh, brother, I can't. I can't

1201
01:08:41,160 --> 01:08:41,680
Speaker 8: make this up.

1202
01:08:41,720 --> 01:08:44,920
Speaker 10: Brother, I can't make that up. And that's one of

1203
01:08:44,960 --> 01:08:48,639
Speaker 10: the things about jazz cats just wear.

1204
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:50,639
Speaker 8: That Christmas card. I'm splitting.

1205
01:08:51,680 --> 01:08:53,599
Speaker 10: Request, man, here's a quands of card.

1206
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 4: Don't get fun.

1207
01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:07,240
Speaker 2: And I want to thank you.

1208
01:09:07,800 --> 01:09:09,919
Speaker 10: I said, I'm old man, And if I keep running.

1209
01:09:09,680 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 1: It's like having a mirror on the show without a mirror.

1210
01:09:13,040 --> 01:09:17,200
Speaker 10: So I told you I was I went out to

1211
01:09:17,320 --> 01:09:18,479
Speaker 10: California to go to school.

1212
01:09:19,479 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it was swimmer. How did you get into that?

1213
01:09:22,840 --> 01:09:27,640
Speaker 8: My father? You know, one day he came and told me,

1214
01:09:28,240 --> 01:09:30,400
Speaker 8: you know, I'm into I know, I'm going to NBA.

1215
01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 8: You know, he said, man, you ain't will never be

1216
01:09:33,000 --> 01:09:37,000
Speaker 8: tall my whole you know. Okay, So he got me,

1217
01:09:37,360 --> 01:09:40,800
Speaker 8: my brother and myself swimming, and I swam for both

1218
01:09:41,000 --> 01:09:41,800
Speaker 8: Vestment Boat Club.

1219
01:09:42,280 --> 01:09:46,679
Speaker 2: Okay, that's the Pride Boys, the movie that the movie.

1220
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,640
Speaker 8: Listen, that's b s.

1221
01:09:51,240 --> 01:09:57,120
Speaker 10: Yeah, that's recreation park swimming. I was au. That's those

1222
01:09:57,160 --> 01:09:57,880
Speaker 10: are two different things.

1223
01:09:58,040 --> 01:10:00,519
Speaker 8: You're saying that league was no, no, and what and what?

1224
01:10:00,640 --> 01:10:00,880
Speaker 2: I did?

1225
01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 3: Not?

1226
01:10:01,280 --> 01:10:04,400
Speaker 8: Like they had cats in the movie that couldn't even swim.

1227
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:09,240
Speaker 8: It's like you watching a movie on basketball and the

1228
01:10:09,360 --> 01:10:09,800
Speaker 8: cats in the.

1229
01:10:09,840 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 1: Spike moment, remember said that. Oh yeah, So I go

1230
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:18,360
Speaker 1: out this is sixty six.

1231
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:23,320
Speaker 8: This is like, you know the world was changing young

1232
01:10:23,600 --> 01:10:29,320
Speaker 8: young whites, young blacks, young Latinos, and uh, this is

1233
01:10:29,360 --> 01:10:30,960
Speaker 8: a year. I go out there the year after the

1234
01:10:31,000 --> 01:10:36,200
Speaker 8: Watch Revolt. So that summer they're having the Watch Summer

1235
01:10:36,280 --> 01:10:40,000
Speaker 8: Festival and I go to the WATS Cafe and it

1236
01:10:40,160 --> 01:10:48,439
Speaker 8: was excuse me, stokely Carmichael back then Ron Karranger, Marlona Karenger,

1237
01:10:50,120 --> 01:10:52,880
Speaker 8: and a couple of other you know, just I never

1238
01:10:52,960 --> 01:10:56,040
Speaker 8: heard that language. Well I did hear that language when

1239
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,280
Speaker 8: I was fourteen. My father took me and my brother

1240
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:04,719
Speaker 8: to hear Malcolm open up for Elijah Muhammad wo Wow

1241
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:07,000
Speaker 8: nineteen sixty two.

1242
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 10: I think I was fourteen and I had never.

1243
01:11:11,840 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 8: I mean, I was you know, we came home from

1244
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,479
Speaker 8: church and he said, don't you know cause my thing

1245
01:11:17,520 --> 01:11:19,840
Speaker 8: is after church, this is coming off. I'm going across

1246
01:11:19,880 --> 01:11:21,840
Speaker 8: the street and play Paul. He said, no, keep your

1247
01:11:21,840 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 8: suits on. And I was like, oh man, we probably

1248
01:11:24,360 --> 01:11:26,960
Speaker 8: gotta go to my aunt's, you know, have Sunday dinner.

1249
01:11:27,000 --> 01:11:31,120
Speaker 8: I was drug and we're driving and I looked over

1250
01:11:31,280 --> 01:11:37,760
Speaker 8: said tonight. I don't know Elijah Mohammad Minister Malcolm X.

1251
01:11:38,240 --> 01:11:39,559
Speaker 8: I saw both of them that night.

1252
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 10: That was the beginning of my wow. I'm sorry, go

1253
01:11:44,439 --> 01:11:46,639
Speaker 10: back sixty six, right, I know, no, no, no, it's

1254
01:11:46,680 --> 01:11:48,040
Speaker 10: all the part of Yeah.

1255
01:11:48,160 --> 01:11:54,360
Speaker 8: So I joined US organization, which was my Lina Cranker,

1256
01:11:54,439 --> 01:12:00,439
Speaker 8: and you know, we changed our name. But you know,

1257
01:12:01,120 --> 01:12:03,800
Speaker 8: that was like the first kind of wave going. There

1258
01:12:03,880 --> 01:12:06,920
Speaker 8: was Arabic names, but we started talking about African names

1259
01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:10,439
Speaker 8: Swahili and uh. He asked what what you felt your

1260
01:12:10,479 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 8: quality was? That's what your that's what your name is

1261
01:12:12,200 --> 01:12:16,400
Speaker 8: based on. So I said, I think I'm supposed to

1262
01:12:16,479 --> 01:12:19,360
Speaker 8: bring something and he said, and you feel like a message?

1263
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:23,000
Speaker 8: Well I said, not literally, you know. He said, no

1264
01:12:23,640 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 8: too may and that's what that's what it means messenger

1265
01:12:26,800 --> 01:12:31,320
Speaker 8: ah okay, which I interpreted through the music.

1266
01:12:32,479 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 1: M wowe.

1267
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:36,400
Speaker 10: Well we're going through this.

1268
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:39,720
Speaker 7: I wish we were recording this.

1269
01:12:43,520 --> 01:12:44,080
Speaker 8: Let me ask.

1270
01:12:45,760 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 2: Because like, well, forty years later, you know the story

1271
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:52,479
Speaker 2: of Karinga has changed, and people, you know, look at

1272
01:12:52,520 --> 01:12:54,760
Speaker 2: it differently. I mean the story we argued in this

1273
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:56,320
Speaker 2: room about the story of kwans.

1274
01:12:56,040 --> 01:13:00,759
Speaker 6: And you want to hear.

1275
01:13:03,960 --> 01:13:04,280
Speaker 8: All right.

1276
01:13:05,640 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 10: I think the first Kwanza, I think was celebrated in

1277
01:13:08,920 --> 01:13:09,400
Speaker 10: sixty six.

1278
01:13:09,520 --> 01:13:12,040
Speaker 8: I wasn't there. It was just a few people. The

1279
01:13:12,320 --> 01:13:14,599
Speaker 8: organization began to kick in because it started to bring

1280
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:17,920
Speaker 8: we were all college students coming in. So my first

1281
01:13:18,000 --> 01:13:20,960
Speaker 8: Quansa is the next year, sixty seven. It's about maybe

1282
01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:26,600
Speaker 8: thirty of us up in somebody's apartment and everybody's like them,

1283
01:13:26,680 --> 01:13:33,639
Speaker 8: niggas are crazy, they're trying, they're trying to replace Christmas.

1284
01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:37,400
Speaker 10: And now, look, let me make this clear. Kwanza had

1285
01:13:37,479 --> 01:13:38,719
Speaker 10: nothing to do with religion.

1286
01:13:38,920 --> 01:13:39,360
Speaker 8: Talk about it.

1287
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:40,679
Speaker 10: It was a cultural holiday.

1288
01:13:41,280 --> 01:13:44,200
Speaker 8: Now let me deal with what's happened to it. People

1289
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:47,640
Speaker 8: who don't even know what about Kwanza, they want to

1290
01:13:47,720 --> 01:13:49,799
Speaker 8: destroy it. We didn't ask for Quansa.

1291
01:13:49,920 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 6: We made it.

1292
01:13:51,280 --> 01:13:53,600
Speaker 8: And that's one of the differences between that and like

1293
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:55,880
Speaker 8: Martin Luther King, I don't why you got to ask people.

1294
01:13:56,560 --> 01:13:59,200
Speaker 8: Jews don't ask him. We have roster Shana. Chinese don't

1295
01:13:59,200 --> 01:14:03,920
Speaker 8: say can I have Chinese New Year? Do it self determination?

1296
01:14:05,240 --> 01:14:07,360
Speaker 8: But they try to rewrite it now and then you

1297
01:14:07,600 --> 01:14:13,280
Speaker 8: krangle went to prison. Well, who created Christmas? Oh, I

1298
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:19,240
Speaker 8: don't know who cares. It was the establishment of a

1299
01:14:19,360 --> 01:14:24,160
Speaker 8: black holiday that's open for anybody. You can be jew

1300
01:14:24,320 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 8: you can be a Catholic, it don't matter. And that's

1301
01:14:26,240 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 8: what people didn't know. And then people started writing what

1302
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:33,200
Speaker 8: they thought it was. That's the danger of thought.

1303
01:14:34,280 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 7: That's crazy.

1304
01:14:37,320 --> 01:14:37,680
Speaker 8: This is the.

1305
01:14:45,600 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 6: It's because.

1306
01:14:52,880 --> 01:14:57,040
Speaker 5: When we have the Drunken Christmas episode, remind all of

1307
01:14:57,160 --> 01:14:58,160
Speaker 5: us to shut up.

1308
01:15:04,640 --> 01:15:06,759
Speaker 1: Okay, look, can we get to epic records?

1309
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:11,840
Speaker 11: How did your your solo stuff like Theater of Mind,

1310
01:15:11,920 --> 01:15:14,680
Speaker 11: and uh, that's what Rainbow Secrets was.

1311
01:15:14,760 --> 01:15:16,719
Speaker 8: That was that's what about.

1312
01:15:17,000 --> 01:15:17,400
Speaker 1: Oh I don't know.

1313
01:15:17,560 --> 01:15:20,080
Speaker 6: I thought, Okay, I want you to remember this moment. Happy.

1314
01:15:23,680 --> 01:15:24,599
Speaker 6: How did we wait?

1315
01:15:24,760 --> 01:15:28,479
Speaker 5: Okay, I'm lying because you dropped Pharaoh Sandrew's name is

1316
01:15:28,520 --> 01:15:31,200
Speaker 5: twice and I'm like, yo, if you're on Creator has

1317
01:15:31,200 --> 01:15:31,880
Speaker 5: a massive.

1318
01:15:32,280 --> 01:15:35,759
Speaker 8: I'm not on that. That's when I first saw Pharaoh. Okay,

1319
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 8: but I played with Lonnie Listen. Okay, I went to

1320
01:15:40,280 --> 01:15:42,160
Speaker 8: see Pharroh. First time I saw him was at the

1321
01:15:42,240 --> 01:15:47,519
Speaker 8: Village Vanguard. It was Pharh Jibali, Billy Hart on drums,

1322
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:50,519
Speaker 8: Lonnie Listen, Cecil mcb.

1323
01:15:50,520 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: On bass, what Thomas saying with him?

1324
01:15:54,960 --> 01:16:00,160
Speaker 8: That was my last and Leon Thomas. I sat, damn man,

1325
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:03,160
Speaker 8: I'd never heard nothing like that in my life. And

1326
01:16:03,280 --> 01:16:05,400
Speaker 8: The Creator as a master Plan had just come out.

1327
01:16:06,040 --> 01:16:09,640
Speaker 8: Imama Broka turned me onto it and I found out

1328
01:16:09,640 --> 01:16:11,479
Speaker 8: they were playing at the Vanguard. I shot over there.

1329
01:16:12,160 --> 01:16:14,240
Speaker 8: I sat there all night, mesmerized.

1330
01:16:14,280 --> 01:16:14,400
Speaker 1: Man.

1331
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:17,720
Speaker 10: I never heard nothing like that, and that was the

1332
01:16:17,800 --> 01:16:21,080
Speaker 10: beginning of that period of the jazz thing.

1333
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:25,040
Speaker 8: Now. I was into McCoy from the first time I

1334
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:29,360
Speaker 8: heard Train McCay, so I played like I said on

1335
01:16:29,439 --> 01:16:33,639
Speaker 8: about six albums with McCoy, Man, I don't I don't

1336
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:34,960
Speaker 8: want to keep repeating that. I'm sorry.

1337
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:39,760
Speaker 7: These are McCoy albums, like on Milestone, like in the

1338
01:16:39,840 --> 01:16:40,639
Speaker 7: early seventies.

1339
01:16:41,800 --> 01:16:42,519
Speaker 10: Man, it was the.

1340
01:16:42,600 --> 01:16:45,840
Speaker 8: Label, man, I mean it's a it's on you you know,

1341
01:16:46,000 --> 01:16:47,960
Speaker 8: if you type it up, it's on YouTube.

1342
01:16:49,040 --> 01:16:53,240
Speaker 10: I can't remember the label man that he was No, no, no,

1343
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:54,920
Speaker 10: no no, I was on Strata.

1344
01:16:55,680 --> 01:16:58,439
Speaker 7: McCoy's was was Milestone around around that time.

1345
01:16:58,439 --> 01:17:00,120
Speaker 10: I don't know if it was Milestone.

1346
01:17:01,520 --> 01:17:02,679
Speaker 6: The song for My Lady album.

1347
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 7: Yeah, that album is a song for My Lady.

1348
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:10,680
Speaker 1: You're on that, brother, I can't if you say so,

1349
01:17:11,000 --> 01:17:11,320
Speaker 1: I can't.

1350
01:17:11,360 --> 01:17:12,240
Speaker 10: I can't remember them.

1351
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:13,240
Speaker 6: You are do.

1352
01:17:14,160 --> 01:17:20,360
Speaker 1: But now let's get see it right, big big records.

1353
01:17:21,120 --> 01:17:23,800
Speaker 6: No more ask questions. But you know we're gonna go

1354
01:17:23,880 --> 01:17:24,200
Speaker 6: back to it.

1355
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:25,679
Speaker 1: Yeah.

1356
01:17:25,880 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 5: So what brought you to was it was Lark and

1357
01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:32,320
Speaker 5: Arnold there at the time, or who brought you to

1358
01:17:32,439 --> 01:17:35,960
Speaker 5: the two Sony or back then the CBS?

1359
01:17:37,000 --> 01:17:40,479
Speaker 10: Okay, well with Reggie and I ready Lucas and I

1360
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:42,120
Speaker 10: have with partners and.

1361
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:45,519
Speaker 5: And why did y'all stay together? Why'd you guys decide

1362
01:17:45,600 --> 01:17:47,919
Speaker 5: let's partner up and be a success.

1363
01:17:49,920 --> 01:17:52,360
Speaker 10: Okay, yeah, I mean you know, I don't mean monetarial.

1364
01:17:52,400 --> 01:17:52,719
Speaker 4: I mean.

1365
01:17:54,360 --> 01:17:57,320
Speaker 10: You we were nourishing, you know, the music. We were

1366
01:17:57,400 --> 01:17:58,760
Speaker 10: very proud of the music we were doing.

1367
01:17:59,600 --> 01:18:01,920
Speaker 4: What was the division of labor between you two in

1368
01:18:02,040 --> 01:18:03,080
Speaker 4: terms of writing.

1369
01:18:02,880 --> 01:18:04,840
Speaker 8: And those who know don't say those say don't know,

1370
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:09,000
Speaker 8: I don't do that because that gets into well, no.

1371
01:18:09,000 --> 01:18:10,720
Speaker 1: No, no, we met like who did the music, who

1372
01:18:10,760 --> 01:18:14,160
Speaker 1: did the lyrics? Oh really, I'm not going there. It's

1373
01:18:14,200 --> 01:18:16,919
Speaker 1: that song about we're actually asking.

1374
01:18:19,760 --> 01:18:23,439
Speaker 8: First of all, said I already said closer. I said

1375
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:25,439
Speaker 8: I was working on these courts, so we shared.

1376
01:18:27,479 --> 01:18:28,639
Speaker 6: You know, it depends on the song.

1377
01:18:29,120 --> 01:18:30,240
Speaker 8: Yeah, well.

1378
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:35,400
Speaker 11: We were partners, so it's always like two Hearts by

1379
01:18:35,439 --> 01:18:37,240
Speaker 11: Stiffing Me like, which is one of my favorite songs.

1380
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:44,040
Speaker 8: Well, actually we co wrote that with Twa Okay, and

1381
01:18:44,200 --> 01:18:47,240
Speaker 8: you know what, damn listen because me and Twafa we

1382
01:18:47,240 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 8: was just talking about this the other day. For those

1383
01:18:49,200 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 8: who don't know, Tawatha ag was our lead singer, you know,

1384
01:18:52,120 --> 01:18:56,360
Speaker 8: in the two May band, both versions, and I don't

1385
01:18:56,479 --> 01:18:59,040
Speaker 8: remember how it became a duet.

1386
01:19:00,400 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 10: We didn't write it as a duet.

1387
01:19:01,800 --> 01:19:02,320
Speaker 8: I don't even know.

1388
01:19:02,920 --> 01:19:06,679
Speaker 6: Shep Gordon probably his clients.

1389
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:08,240
Speaker 8: No, no, no, no, wait a minute, Okay, there's a

1390
01:19:08,320 --> 01:19:15,400
Speaker 8: story here. So Shep is managing Stephanie men step me

1391
01:19:15,640 --> 01:19:22,840
Speaker 8: and she gets cool, You're probably right. I think that's

1392
01:19:22,840 --> 01:19:23,240
Speaker 8: how I came.

1393
01:19:26,479 --> 01:19:26,679
Speaker 9: Well.

1394
01:19:27,240 --> 01:19:31,960
Speaker 8: So we're recording two Hearts.

1395
01:19:32,640 --> 01:19:36,400
Speaker 10: Teddy comes in up Sigma in New York. That's what

1396
01:19:36,840 --> 01:19:37,280
Speaker 10: record it.

1397
01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:44,000
Speaker 8: So I'm putting on do Dude do because I always

1398
01:19:44,080 --> 01:19:47,640
Speaker 8: liked little melodic hooks in the in our songs, you know,

1399
01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:53,280
Speaker 8: uh like juicy do do do just little things, you know,

1400
01:19:54,400 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 8: and say that something about you know how to love me?

1401
01:20:00,200 --> 01:20:04,960
Speaker 10: Yeah, and so Teddy said, man, I'm man Tombs.

1402
01:20:04,960 --> 01:20:06,559
Speaker 8: You know I love I want to work with you man.

1403
01:20:06,640 --> 01:20:10,960
Speaker 10: So you know, we're just kicking it. I get a

1404
01:20:11,000 --> 01:20:12,440
Speaker 10: call from Kenny Gamble.

1405
01:20:15,000 --> 01:20:19,000
Speaker 8: And Shep. Shep said, man, look can you invest come down.

1406
01:20:19,000 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 8: We want to have a meeting in Philly with with

1407
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:24,320
Speaker 8: U he said, me and Leon Huff and Shep.

1408
01:20:24,920 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 10: So we you know, we set a date. We rolled down.

1409
01:20:28,439 --> 01:20:31,320
Speaker 8: So Kenny says, look, man, I want you to do

1410
01:20:31,479 --> 01:20:34,599
Speaker 8: half the next. Teddy Pentagras out said be gambling Huff

1411
01:20:34,600 --> 01:20:38,040
Speaker 8: on one side A and too made Lucas side B.

1412
01:20:39,160 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 8: I'm like ship this is I mean, because just and

1413
01:20:44,160 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 8: this is after what period? It is?

1414
01:20:45,920 --> 01:20:47,840
Speaker 2: What was the last Teddy album before.

1415
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:49,000
Speaker 6: Before the crash?

1416
01:20:49,040 --> 01:20:49,479
Speaker 8: I guess.

1417
01:20:50,880 --> 01:20:53,840
Speaker 1: Anyone wants exactly before the crash?

1418
01:20:54,520 --> 01:20:57,720
Speaker 8: This is after obviously it's a silver album cover, it's

1419
01:20:57,800 --> 01:21:03,920
Speaker 8: after after, it's after too arts whatever. So I'm like, oh, man,

1420
01:21:07,320 --> 01:21:10,519
Speaker 8: Teddy has the accident maybe about three weeks later. So

1421
01:21:10,800 --> 01:21:14,880
Speaker 8: it's just something that never never happened. But really, where was.

1422
01:21:14,880 --> 01:21:15,479
Speaker 10: I going with that?

1423
01:21:16,840 --> 01:21:18,840
Speaker 8: Yeah, that was going to the next album was going

1424
01:21:18,920 --> 01:21:22,560
Speaker 8: to be and oh, I want to say something like

1425
01:21:22,920 --> 01:21:26,040
Speaker 8: Gamble and Huff was one of my inspirations. Kenny Kenny

1426
01:21:26,320 --> 01:21:30,280
Speaker 8: is one of my best friends in the music. I

1427
01:21:30,400 --> 01:21:35,639
Speaker 8: first met Kenny on the phone in nineteen sixty eight.

1428
01:21:36,880 --> 01:21:39,400
Speaker 8: I was heading up getting the entertainment together for the

1429
01:21:39,439 --> 01:21:43,720
Speaker 8: Watch Summer Festival. I'm calling all over everybody multime, you know,

1430
01:21:43,880 --> 01:21:47,000
Speaker 8: try to get somebody to donate some artists. I said, Man,

1431
01:21:47,160 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 8: was this cat in Philly?

1432
01:21:48,120 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 1: Man?

1433
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 8: I called Philly International.

1434
01:21:52,280 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 10: I'm in La. I said, can I speak to Kenny Gamble?

1435
01:21:55,240 --> 01:22:00,640
Speaker 8: I mean, I'm and she said, well who, I said, Well,

1436
01:22:00,640 --> 01:22:02,640
Speaker 8: my name is in too May. I went for the

1437
01:22:02,680 --> 01:22:06,160
Speaker 8: Watch Something festival. We're trying to get the talent. She said,

1438
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:06,479
Speaker 8: hold on.

1439
01:22:07,800 --> 01:22:10,360
Speaker 10: About thirty seconds later, Kenny picks up.

1440
01:22:11,280 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 8: I'm like, oh, it was that easy. We talked. He

1441
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:19,240
Speaker 8: sent out the intruders, I think it was Howl, Melvin

1442
01:22:19,479 --> 01:22:22,360
Speaker 8: and somebody else to La to perform at to watch

1443
01:22:22,400 --> 01:22:26,600
Speaker 8: some offessal for nothing. Well, we paid for the transportation,

1444
01:22:26,720 --> 01:22:31,840
Speaker 8: but the services free. So that's when he and I

1445
01:22:31,960 --> 01:22:34,160
Speaker 8: first woke. I wasn't even writing music then.

1446
01:22:34,560 --> 01:22:35,760
Speaker 2: And you didn't even know her from Philly.

1447
01:22:36,840 --> 01:22:39,360
Speaker 8: No, no, no, I didn't know it. He's from South Philly.

1448
01:22:40,320 --> 01:22:40,840
Speaker 10: No, I didn't know it.

1449
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:44,040
Speaker 8: So we have in this meeting and I'll never forget. Look,

1450
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:50,280
Speaker 8: Leon Huff is the most so Kenny saying it was beautiful.

1451
01:22:50,280 --> 01:22:53,519
Speaker 8: He said this way, when we're working, you can lean

1452
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:55,960
Speaker 8: on us and we can lean on you. Huff has

1453
01:22:56,040 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 8: not said nothing for like an hour and a half,

1454
01:22:58,640 --> 01:23:02,760
Speaker 8: and then he does this quest. He says, no, he said,

1455
01:23:03,080 --> 01:23:05,960
Speaker 8: no leaning, and I went back to the studio and

1456
01:23:06,040 --> 01:23:08,160
Speaker 8: wrote that on the wall. That was one of the rules,

1457
01:23:09,160 --> 01:23:11,800
Speaker 8: no leaning. He said, one thing in an hour and

1458
01:23:11,840 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 8: a half.

1459
01:23:12,160 --> 01:23:12,640
Speaker 10: But it was so.

1460
01:23:15,360 --> 01:23:16,000
Speaker 6: Impactful.

1461
01:23:16,439 --> 01:23:18,679
Speaker 1: Oh god, now I'm breaking to break my own rule.

1462
01:23:18,840 --> 01:23:19,639
Speaker 4: Going back to jails.

1463
01:23:20,120 --> 01:23:22,880
Speaker 5: No, because the thing is like, what's the chances of

1464
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 5: us actually having someone that was like actively in in

1465
01:23:30,040 --> 01:23:34,080
Speaker 5: there for the wats riots like too, I got it

1466
01:23:34,200 --> 01:23:36,559
Speaker 5: a year after Oh you came out to us. Yeah,

1467
01:23:36,600 --> 01:23:43,559
Speaker 5: we just skipped that, all right, y'all. That wraps up

1468
01:23:43,600 --> 01:23:45,800
Speaker 5: part one of our interview with the Great James Too.

1469
01:23:45,840 --> 01:23:48,679
Speaker 5: May come back next weekend. We will talk to James

1470
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:51,160
Speaker 5: about his work with seventy Mills and Phyllis Hyman just

1471
01:23:51,240 --> 01:23:54,240
Speaker 5: starts on sampling scoring the ninety said TV drama New

1472
01:23:54,280 --> 01:23:56,920
Speaker 5: York under Cover and the late Great Donnie Hathaway.

1473
01:23:57,280 --> 01:23:59,840
Speaker 1: Until then, check out Mixed Supremium for sampling.

1474
01:23:59,479 --> 01:24:04,160
Speaker 5: Of James's work with artists like Marles Davis, Sonny Rollins, Ojys, ROBERTA.

1475
01:24:04,200 --> 01:24:07,000
Speaker 5: Flack Bloud, Mary J. Blige, plus some recent hits that

1476
01:24:07,040 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 5: have sampled his songs. So stay tuned for next week's episode.

1477
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:12,760
Speaker 5: Thanks for tuning in. This is Quest Love Supreme only

1478
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:26,080
Speaker 5: on Pandora. Quest Love Supreme is a production of iHeartRadio.

1479
01:24:26,600 --> 01:24:29,960
Speaker 5: This classic episode was produced by the team at Pandora.

1480
01:24:34,400 --> 01:24:38,800
Speaker 5: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1481
01:24:39,240 --> 01:24:40,920
Speaker 5: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.