WEBVTT - Seamus McElearney: Flipping Capo

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<v Speaker 1>This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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<v Speaker 2>There was like four or fine people that he wanted

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<v Speaker 2>to kill because he didn't know who the rat was.

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<v Speaker 2>All that they knew is someone around them had been

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<v Speaker 2>talking to the Feds for two years. They didn't know

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<v Speaker 2>who it actually was.

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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<v Speaker 1>in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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<v Speaker 1>podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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<v Speaker 1>research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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<v Speaker 1>me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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<v Speaker 1>with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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<v Speaker 1>and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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<v Speaker 1>crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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<v Speaker 1>good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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<v Speaker 1>unpublished details behind their stories. FBI agent Seamus mcallarney had

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<v Speaker 1>dreamed of investigating the mafia in New York when he

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<v Speaker 1>first joined the Bureau, but of course, no one would

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<v Speaker 1>flip on the families. No one had ever flipped on

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<v Speaker 1>the families until mcallarney did some research and he offered

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<v Speaker 1>a made man some orange juice, and then he made history.

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<v Speaker 1>He tells me about his book Flipping Capo, how the

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<v Speaker 1>FBI dismantled the real Sopranos. I will confess I don't

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<v Speaker 1>know a lot about the mafia. I've seen parts of

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<v Speaker 1>The Sopranos, but I am fearful of blood in movies,

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<v Speaker 1>and I have not done a ton of research, even

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<v Speaker 1>though you know I'm a crime historian. I've looked into

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<v Speaker 1>murder Inc. You know in New York, the very old

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<v Speaker 1>murder Inc. But I really don't know much about this.

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<v Speaker 1>Can you give me a very short, little overview of

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<v Speaker 1>what this is like, you know, especially in the time

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<v Speaker 1>period you're working in.

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<v Speaker 2>This time period relates to from nineteen ninety eight up

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<v Speaker 2>until two thousand and four. Is the investigation. It focuses

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<v Speaker 2>on the Decavalcanti family, and that is a Jersey family.

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<v Speaker 2>There are five families in New York, which are the

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<v Speaker 2>Banano family, Columbo family, Geneviez, Gambino, and Luczy family. So

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<v Speaker 2>those are the main five families in New York, and

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<v Speaker 2>the Jersey family is known as the six family. This

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<v Speaker 2>book basically targets the Decavalcanti family because the Sopranos is

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<v Speaker 2>based upon this family.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's get the Sopranos part out of the way. Is

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<v Speaker 1>this the creator or a writer on the show picking

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<v Speaker 1>up on this and saying this is a great family

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<v Speaker 1>for us to emulate and HBO is going to buy

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<v Speaker 1>it in a second?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, the director has said that he has not spoken

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<v Speaker 2>to anyone. But one thing that we can get into

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<v Speaker 2>today is the similarities between the real family and the show.

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<v Speaker 2>There's many similarities between the show and the real family.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, do you consider this a memoir?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, this is just part of my career. This is

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<v Speaker 2>just the first park. So I was a brand new

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<v Speaker 2>agent when I got assigned to this case. After this case,

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<v Speaker 2>then I went on to basically run the Columbo squad

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<v Speaker 2>for the FBI, and I was able to dismantle that

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<v Speaker 2>family and also part of the Banano family as well,

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<v Speaker 2>which I help dismantle them. So this is just the

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<v Speaker 2>first part of my career.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, okay, well let's jump into it. I know that

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<v Speaker 1>you are a main character, and then your subject is

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<v Speaker 1>a main character, but let's start with you, you know, and

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<v Speaker 1>kind of where you grew up rough streets. I assume yes.

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<v Speaker 2>I was actually born in New York City, raised in

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<v Speaker 2>the Bronx, and then I eventually moved to Westchester, but

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<v Speaker 2>in the Bronx. I was raised by two oh seventh

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<v Speaker 2>in Bainbridge Avenue, which was a predominantly Irish type of

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<v Speaker 2>neighborhood there. I've seen a lot of things happen during

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<v Speaker 2>that time period, you know, when I was growing up.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, I used to go to school and then

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<v Speaker 2>after school you would do your homework as quick as

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<v Speaker 2>you possibly can because there was a park across the

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<v Speaker 2>street from me, and we would go play ball a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>Even back then. We lived in an apartment building where

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<v Speaker 2>it was the ground floor apartment back then. Actually it's

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<v Speaker 2>pretty funny how you would play ball in the streets

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<v Speaker 2>and the buses and cars would actually stop. I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think that would happen nowadays, but they did back then.

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<v Speaker 2>But then as you grew older, going through I would say, sixth,

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<v Speaker 2>seventh and eighth grade, I saw friends, you know, get stabbed,

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<v Speaker 2>get shot. You grew up rather quickly back then, so

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<v Speaker 2>I saw a lot as a young person.

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<v Speaker 1>Did you ever get tempted to steer into criminal activity?

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<v Speaker 1>I would have to think it's sort of all over

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<v Speaker 1>the place around there'd be easy for you to get

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<v Speaker 1>scooped up.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, you know, throughout your life you're always there's a

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<v Speaker 2>path that you can take it and go the right

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<v Speaker 2>way or the wrong way. My parents who came from Ireland,

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<v Speaker 2>they actually my mom left Ireland when she was seventeen

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<v Speaker 2>and my dad left when he was twenty, so they've

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<v Speaker 2>actually met in the Bronx themselves. They didn't go to

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<v Speaker 2>high school to college, so all they could actually really

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<v Speaker 2>tell you was to study hard, and they always tried

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<v Speaker 2>to put you on the right path. So one of

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<v Speaker 2>the traits that I think I actually had was common sense.

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<v Speaker 2>So yes, I could have went the wrong way in life.

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<v Speaker 2>I saw a lot of my friends not go the

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<v Speaker 2>right way. But I was tempted at times, but I

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<v Speaker 2>always chose the right, the right way in life. But

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<v Speaker 2>I saw a lot of people not go not go

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<v Speaker 2>the right way, especially in the area that I had

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<v Speaker 2>had grown up in.

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<v Speaker 1>What would that be? Would that be drug dealing or

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<v Speaker 1>gambling or what was surrounding you.

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<v Speaker 2>It could be taking drugs, it could be stealing things.

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<v Speaker 2>It'd be getting involved with the wrong crowd. You know,

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<v Speaker 2>I constantly saw that, so you know, I was able

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<v Speaker 2>to actually just choose the right paths in life. And

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<v Speaker 2>one of the things I think that helped me when

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<v Speaker 2>I became an FBI an agent years later was I

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<v Speaker 2>could always think like a purp. I think that actually

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<v Speaker 2>helped me throughout my career.

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<v Speaker 1>Now, is the Irish mob in your neighborhood or does

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<v Speaker 1>the mob even exist?

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<v Speaker 2>The Irish mob is known as the Westies. I guess

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<v Speaker 2>back then they weren't in the neighborhood that I grew up,

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<v Speaker 2>but it was a predominantly Irish type neighborhood in the

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<v Speaker 2>sense is a lot of people came from Ireland, a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of Irish immigrants that had gotten to that type

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<v Speaker 2>of area that I had grown up in. So it

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<v Speaker 2>really wasn't a gang or a mob though.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, you know I have written a lot about Tammany

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<v Speaker 1>and eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, and so I'm so

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<v Speaker 1>used to how prolific Irish police officers were on the

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<v Speaker 1>streets of New York. Is that just a thread that

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<v Speaker 1>gets pulled throughout history? Is that true even today? That

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<v Speaker 1>it's just something that you know, it's a familiarity among

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<v Speaker 1>that community.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, it seems that a lot of Irish people do

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<v Speaker 2>try to gravitate to law enforcement. But my dad was

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<v Speaker 2>an in law and law enforcement or anyone in his

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<v Speaker 2>particular family either. My dad actually had a gas station

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<v Speaker 2>in the Bronx. So I was the first one to

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<v Speaker 2>go into law and to law enforcement. And also my

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<v Speaker 2>brother followed in my footsteps as well. He was a

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<v Speaker 2>mechanically worked for my father too, and then he actually

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<v Speaker 2>joined the FBI himself and he's a supervisor there too.

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<v Speaker 2>So my brother and I were the first ones to

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<v Speaker 2>go into law enforcement from our family.

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<v Speaker 1>That must have scared your mother to death two kids.

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<v Speaker 1>As a parent, I would say that would scare me

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<v Speaker 1>to death. Yes, she always worried about both of you.

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<v Speaker 1>I have to assume yes.

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<v Speaker 2>And you know I didn't tell her a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>the things that that we went through either, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>not to scare her.

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<v Speaker 1>So when did you first start to become just an

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<v Speaker 1>interested in law enforcement in general? And then when did

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<v Speaker 1>this switch to the FBI.

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<v Speaker 2>I went to college and I got a degree in finance,

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<v Speaker 2>and when I got out of school, my dad actually

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<v Speaker 2>helped me go throughout school without any having any student loans.

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<v Speaker 2>So when I had graduated school. As a way to

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<v Speaker 2>repay him, I worked at his gas station for about

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<v Speaker 2>two years to kind of to repay him back, and

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<v Speaker 2>to be honest, when I got out of school, I

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<v Speaker 2>really didn't know what I had wanted to do. And

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<v Speaker 2>then I got an offer or there was an opportunity

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<v Speaker 2>to work in a bank to do audit. So that

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<v Speaker 2>was my first job. And the thing that was funny

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<v Speaker 2>when I went through the interview process for this bank,

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<v Speaker 2>I got all the way up to the director of

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<v Speaker 2>audit and I didn't even know this, and he didn't

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<v Speaker 2>even know it either. But when I got to the

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<v Speaker 2>director of audit, the gentleman who I was going to

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<v Speaker 2>interview with, he actually worked at my dad's gas station

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<v Speaker 2>years prior. So, needless to say, I got the job,

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<v Speaker 2>and that was my introduction to the private sector. I

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<v Speaker 2>worked there for a couple of years. I worked at

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<v Speaker 2>a bank that I worked for, an insurance company called

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<v Speaker 2>the IG. Then I actually worked at a French bank,

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<v Speaker 2>but I didn't have a passion for it. And then

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<v Speaker 2>suddenly I actually met an agent that worked for the FBI,

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<v Speaker 2>and I was just fascinated by it. And during the

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<v Speaker 2>early nineteen nineties there was a hiring phrase with the

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<v Speaker 2>FBI from like nineteen ninety to ninety five, where they

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<v Speaker 2>didn't hire people. So speaking to this agent, just hearing

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<v Speaker 2>that every day was different. One day you could be

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<v Speaker 2>doing surveillance. Another day you could be speaking to a CEO.

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<v Speaker 2>I know that day could be going to court. It

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<v Speaker 2>just seemed just fascinating to me. So at that point

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<v Speaker 2>I just became interested in applying for the FBI. And

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<v Speaker 2>I was constantly told that you don't stand a chance.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, you don't have the background, and I was

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<v Speaker 2>just determined to do it. And back then the whole

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<v Speaker 2>process probably took about two years, and I applied in

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety six and I actually was accepted in ninety eight,

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<v Speaker 2>and back then because there was a hiring frieze. When

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<v Speaker 2>the hiring freeze was lifted, I was told that there

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<v Speaker 2>was just about one hundred thousand applicants in New York alone.

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<v Speaker 2>So again my odds are kind of stacked against me,

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<v Speaker 2>and they said that they were only accepting like two percent.

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<v Speaker 2>So I was very fortunate to be selected and I

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<v Speaker 2>got chosen to go down to Quantico in nineteen ninety eight.

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<v Speaker 2>That's how it started in my class. I think we

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<v Speaker 2>started with fifty people and at the end of our

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<v Speaker 2>training training back then was four months. Our class graduated

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<v Speaker 2>with thirty seven people.

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<v Speaker 1>Well what scared off everybody else?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, there's just because you get accepted to go there,

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<v Speaker 2>there's still training that you have to do. There's the

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<v Speaker 2>academic part, the physical part, and even when you first

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<v Speaker 2>go the first week, just because you see the initials

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<v Speaker 2>and you know it seems like it's a pretty cool

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<v Speaker 2>job to work, there is some serious threats behind it,

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<v Speaker 2>so that even the first week they show you the

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<v Speaker 2>seriousness behind it, like they'll show you videos that people

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<v Speaker 2>are getting shot and things like that. So there is

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<v Speaker 2>a threat element to it, and sometimes people just scared.

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<v Speaker 2>I'll get scared by that, so some people would just

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<v Speaker 2>drop out. And then also what happens is around the

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<v Speaker 2>seventh or eighth week that you're there, they tell you

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<v Speaker 2>what office you're going to go to. And I have

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<v Speaker 2>the time was single, but you can imagine if you

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<v Speaker 2>were married with kids and say you're from Chicago, when

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<v Speaker 2>that seventh or eighth week that you're there, they tell

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<v Speaker 2>you what offers you're going to go to, and you're

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<v Speaker 2>married with kids, you go up there, and you're not

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<v Speaker 2>going back to the office that you came from. So

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<v Speaker 2>if you're from Chicago, you might be sent to Texas.

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<v Speaker 2>So that's an altering experience that you're going to go

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<v Speaker 2>through that night when you go home and you tell

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<v Speaker 2>your wife and kids that in six weeks you're going

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<v Speaker 2>to move to the opposite end of the states, you

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<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. So people chose not to move too.

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<v Speaker 2>So these are things that have and then, as I said,

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<v Speaker 2>the academic portion of it or the physical portion of

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<v Speaker 2>it would knock people out. I do remember one person

0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:10.439
<v Speaker 2>in our class. He had gotten Lasik surgery and at

0:11:10.440 --> 0:11:12.880
<v Speaker 2>that point in time, the FBI wouldn't allow you to

0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.719
<v Speaker 2>get that type of surgery, and he hid it from

0:11:15.800 --> 0:11:17.840
<v Speaker 2>the FBI. And one of the things when you go

0:11:17.880 --> 0:11:20.920
<v Speaker 2>through training is you have to get sprayed with mace.

0:11:21.160 --> 0:11:24.720
<v Speaker 2>Oh no, So right before he got sprayed with mace,

0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:27.400
<v Speaker 2>he had to come forward and tell them that because

0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:31.200
<v Speaker 2>if he didn't, he would have been blinded. So he

0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.319
<v Speaker 2>couldn't get sprayed with mace. And they threw him out

0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.280
<v Speaker 2>because of his lack of candor. Oh my gosh.

0:11:36.400 --> 0:11:38.160
<v Speaker 1>And now you can have a Lisik surgery if you're

0:11:38.160 --> 0:11:38.720
<v Speaker 1>in the FBI.

0:11:39.040 --> 0:11:41.240
<v Speaker 2>Yes, and I actually had it in like two thousand

0:11:41.240 --> 0:11:41.560
<v Speaker 2>and one.

0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:48.760
<v Speaker 1>That's quickly as possible. Your time in Quantico was that

0:11:49.040 --> 0:11:52.280
<v Speaker 1>your first exposure to, I have to believe, mafia stuff.

0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.000
<v Speaker 1>Was that the first time you really get to see

0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:55.240
<v Speaker 1>what you might have to deal with.

0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:57.200
<v Speaker 2>Right. So when I was there, they give you all

0:11:57.200 --> 0:12:00.640
<v Speaker 2>sorts of training, and to me, I was just excited

0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:03.480
<v Speaker 2>about the mob because the mob is into everything whatever

0:12:03.520 --> 0:12:06.880
<v Speaker 2>way they can possibly make money. When you study white collar,

0:12:06.960 --> 0:12:09.480
<v Speaker 2>it's just white collar, or when it's drugs, it's just drugs.

0:12:09.480 --> 0:12:12.240
<v Speaker 2>But with the mafia, wherever they can make money, they're

0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:15.599
<v Speaker 2>going to be into that and it could be extortions,

0:12:15.679 --> 0:12:19.520
<v Speaker 2>white collar, drugs, murder, and back then I would read

0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:23.160
<v Speaker 2>about seeing me the bull or Gotti from the Gambino family.

0:12:23.240 --> 0:12:26.360
<v Speaker 2>So I was just excited about that, and it's something

0:12:26.400 --> 0:12:29.200
<v Speaker 2>that I had a passion for. Now with the FBI,

0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:31.280
<v Speaker 2>you don't get to choose what you're going to work.

0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:33.320
<v Speaker 2>It's always the needs of the bureau. They tell you

0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.600
<v Speaker 2>what you're going to work. But I had a passion

0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:39.600
<v Speaker 2>for that. And what happened was I had graduated in

0:12:39.640 --> 0:12:42.280
<v Speaker 2>May of ninety eight. That year and I got sent

0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:44.040
<v Speaker 2>back to New York. It was fortunate to be sent

0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:45.800
<v Speaker 2>back to New York. No one wants to work in

0:12:45.840 --> 0:12:47.640
<v Speaker 2>New York because the cost of living is so high

0:12:47.679 --> 0:12:49.800
<v Speaker 2>and because crime is so high. And I was told

0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:51.600
<v Speaker 2>before I went down there there was a ninety nine

0:12:51.640 --> 0:12:53.199
<v Speaker 2>percent chance so I was going to be sent back

0:12:53.200 --> 0:12:56.000
<v Speaker 2>to New York. So thankfully I was sent back to

0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:57.520
<v Speaker 2>New York because it would have been a culture shock

0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:58.760
<v Speaker 2>to me if I wasn't going to be sent back

0:12:58.760 --> 0:13:00.880
<v Speaker 2>to New York. I got sent back to New York

0:13:00.880 --> 0:13:03.080
<v Speaker 2>in May of nineteen ninety eight. And when you get

0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:05.280
<v Speaker 2>sent back to New York, they put you through a rotation,

0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:08.320
<v Speaker 2>and one of the rotations they put you through is surveillance.

0:13:09.040 --> 0:13:11.240
<v Speaker 2>And at that point in time, I was assigned to

0:13:11.280 --> 0:13:14.520
<v Speaker 2>a squad called SO two, and they just happened to

0:13:14.600 --> 0:13:19.280
<v Speaker 2>be surveilling a gentleman who was known as a proactive witness.

0:13:19.480 --> 0:13:22.360
<v Speaker 2>They were tailing him and he was investigating or they

0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.800
<v Speaker 2>were investigating the Dicavalcanti family. And I was fortunate to

0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.880
<v Speaker 2>be on that squad. And that kind of starts how

0:13:28.920 --> 0:13:31.120
<v Speaker 2>I get assigned to this case, because then eventually I

0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.720
<v Speaker 2>get assigned to a squad called C ten that in

0:13:33.800 --> 0:13:37.199
<v Speaker 2>December of nineteen ninety eight, and that squad is responsible

0:13:37.240 --> 0:13:40.960
<v Speaker 2>for the Banano family and also the Decavalcantis. And I

0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.560
<v Speaker 2>know you're probably thinking, how does the New York FBI

0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.920
<v Speaker 2>take down the Jersey family or kind of get involved

0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.760
<v Speaker 2>with that? And I can kind of rewind and tell

0:13:49.800 --> 0:13:53.880
<v Speaker 2>you how that happens. So this case starts in January

0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.079
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety eight, before I even go to Quantico.

0:13:57.480 --> 0:14:01.360
<v Speaker 2>There's two events that Happennuary of nineteen ninety eight, I

0:14:01.400 --> 0:14:04.920
<v Speaker 2>think it was the fourteenth, I believe of January. Three

0:14:04.920 --> 0:14:08.480
<v Speaker 2>individuals actually rob the World Trade Center and they come

0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:10.760
<v Speaker 2>out and they do rob it. They come out, but

0:14:10.800 --> 0:14:13.800
<v Speaker 2>they take their mask off and they are immediately caught

0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.199
<v Speaker 2>because the cameras are there. So two guys were caught

0:14:17.400 --> 0:14:19.640
<v Speaker 2>that day. A third person fled to New Mexico and

0:14:19.680 --> 0:14:22.120
<v Speaker 2>he was caught pretty quickly, in like two or three days.

0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:25.840
<v Speaker 2>The mastermind behind the robbery sees the walls or starting

0:14:25.840 --> 0:14:28.640
<v Speaker 2>to cave in, and he calls a legendary agent named

0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:32.520
<v Speaker 2>George Hannah, and George is from Brooklyn and basically convinces

0:14:32.680 --> 0:14:36.760
<v Speaker 2>Ralph Guarino, the mastermind, to become a proactive witness. When

0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:39.640
<v Speaker 2>I say a proactive witness, what I mean by that

0:14:39.760 --> 0:14:41.720
<v Speaker 2>is that's a witness who's going to stay on the

0:14:41.760 --> 0:14:45.800
<v Speaker 2>street and make consensual recordings covert recordings.

0:14:46.040 --> 0:14:48.760
<v Speaker 1>So an informant is that different than an informant.

0:14:48.400 --> 0:14:51.000
<v Speaker 2>Yep, But he's going to be a cooperating witness as

0:14:51.000 --> 0:14:54.880
<v Speaker 2>opposed to an informant, so meaning he's going to testify

0:14:55.360 --> 0:14:57.840
<v Speaker 2>if need be. So that's the first event that happens.

0:14:57.960 --> 0:15:01.200
<v Speaker 2>About nine days later, on January t twenty third, Joseph

0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:06.000
<v Speaker 2>Conniglierro is killed. Joseph Connigliero is a decavalcant, the associate

0:15:06.160 --> 0:15:09.320
<v Speaker 2>who was a ruthless person. He was confined to a wheelchair,

0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:12.680
<v Speaker 2>but he was a very ruthless person who was a dicavalcant,

0:15:12.720 --> 0:15:16.520
<v Speaker 2>the associate who tortured his crew. How he got confined

0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.720
<v Speaker 2>to a wheelchair is in the seventies, him and a

0:15:19.760 --> 0:15:23.760
<v Speaker 2>decaalalcanty soldier named James Gallo went to go collect loan

0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:29.240
<v Speaker 2>short money and James Gallo accidentally shot Joseph Knnigliero and

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:32.640
<v Speaker 2>paralyzed them. But there was no hard feelings about that.

0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:35.520
<v Speaker 2>It's just the cost of doing mob business. But Joseph

0:15:35.560 --> 0:15:39.000
<v Speaker 2>Kniglier was in a wheelchair from nineteen seventies to up

0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.760
<v Speaker 2>until his death in nineteen ninety eight. The reason they

0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:44.920
<v Speaker 2>killed him was because he tortured his crew. And what

0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:46.360
<v Speaker 2>he used to do, even though he was in a

0:15:46.360 --> 0:15:49.320
<v Speaker 2>wheelchair is he would call you over and shoot you

0:15:50.240 --> 0:15:52.560
<v Speaker 2>and have his crew clean up the body and put

0:15:52.600 --> 0:15:54.360
<v Speaker 2>them in a rug or a tarp and get rid

0:15:54.400 --> 0:15:57.280
<v Speaker 2>of the body. So he was killed because he tortured

0:15:57.320 --> 0:15:59.480
<v Speaker 2>his crew. So those are the two events that happened

0:15:59.480 --> 0:16:02.720
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety eight, right before I even go to training.

0:16:02.920 --> 0:16:05.920
<v Speaker 2>So then, as I said, I just the stars are aligned,

0:16:05.960 --> 0:16:08.840
<v Speaker 2>where I get assigned to a surveillance squad that is

0:16:08.920 --> 0:16:12.440
<v Speaker 2>actually monitoring Ralph or trying to protect Ralph, and then

0:16:12.480 --> 0:16:15.880
<v Speaker 2>I get assigned to C ten, which is handling this case.

0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.160
<v Speaker 2>And when you have a proactive witness, you never know

0:16:19.240 --> 0:16:22.200
<v Speaker 2>where he's going to go, meaning you don't know who

0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:25.080
<v Speaker 2>he's going to ingratiate himself to or who he's going

0:16:25.120 --> 0:16:30.880
<v Speaker 2>to infiltrate. And Ralph, at George's direction, infiltrated the Brooklyn

0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:34.440
<v Speaker 2>faction of the Decavalcanti family. And that's how the New

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:38.920
<v Speaker 2>York FBI gets into the Decavalcanti family and Ralph basically

0:16:39.560 --> 0:16:43.000
<v Speaker 2>was operated for two years from January nineteen ninety eight

0:16:43.160 --> 0:16:47.120
<v Speaker 2>up until December of nineteen ninety nine. During those two years,

0:16:47.880 --> 0:16:52.080
<v Speaker 2>he made about three hundred consentual recordings and the surveillance

0:16:52.120 --> 0:16:55.880
<v Speaker 2>team was dedicated to Ralph. We probably had about one

0:16:55.880 --> 0:16:59.280
<v Speaker 2>thousand surveillance locks where they would watch him like maybe

0:16:59.320 --> 0:17:03.600
<v Speaker 2>twice a day for his safety. So George his main

0:17:03.880 --> 0:17:07.639
<v Speaker 2>purpose is to keep Ralph safe. And as a new agent,

0:17:07.680 --> 0:17:09.480
<v Speaker 2>I'm going to be a sponge and try to learn

0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:11.800
<v Speaker 2>as much as I can from George. And George was

0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:15.800
<v Speaker 2>my mentor, so I did all the admin work, learned

0:17:15.800 --> 0:17:18.840
<v Speaker 2>as much as I could from George, and then what

0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:21.639
<v Speaker 2>happens is we have our first round of indictments in

0:17:21.680 --> 0:17:25.560
<v Speaker 2>December of nineteen ninety nine, because, as I said, Ralph

0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.440
<v Speaker 2>was on the street for two years and there started

0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.000
<v Speaker 2>to be whispers, why hasn't Ralph been arrested if he

0:17:32.160 --> 0:17:36.280
<v Speaker 2>was the mastermind of the robbery, and there started to

0:17:36.320 --> 0:17:38.560
<v Speaker 2>be whispers about that, and then they might try to

0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.000
<v Speaker 2>hurt him. So for his safety, we had to take

0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.879
<v Speaker 2>down the case. And as a new agent, I'm hoping

0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:46.560
<v Speaker 2>to be part of an arrest team, and when you're

0:17:46.560 --> 0:17:48.280
<v Speaker 2>a new agent, they kind of put you in rear

0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.400
<v Speaker 2>security for your own safety. And we arrested thirty nine

0:17:51.440 --> 0:17:53.879
<v Speaker 2>people in December of nineteen ninety nine. One of the

0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.320
<v Speaker 2>individuals was a guy named Anthony Capo. Anthony Campo was

0:17:57.359 --> 0:18:01.520
<v Speaker 2>a violent Decabocanty soldier from stant Nay and Lo and

0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:04.520
<v Speaker 2>behold for all the hard work that I did, I

0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:06.520
<v Speaker 2>was assigned to be the team leader, not to be

0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:09.600
<v Speaker 2>only arresting, to actually be the team leader to arrest him.

0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.159
<v Speaker 2>And that's how it start to take a monumental step

0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:14.560
<v Speaker 2>in this case. So my job is to arrest him

0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:17.040
<v Speaker 2>in December of nineteen ninety nine, which I do.

0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:21.680
<v Speaker 1>Let's just close out Ralph's story. What was his supposed

0:18:21.800 --> 0:18:24.560
<v Speaker 1>role when you all were surveiling him and he's making

0:18:24.560 --> 0:18:27.480
<v Speaker 1>all of these recording secret recordings. What was his role?

0:18:27.800 --> 0:18:30.439
<v Speaker 2>So he was an associate, right, So he's not a

0:18:30.520 --> 0:18:33.960
<v Speaker 2>made member of the family, and he's trying to ingratiate

0:18:34.040 --> 0:18:37.160
<v Speaker 2>himself to not just the Decalbocanties, but anyone that would

0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.280
<v Speaker 2>listen to him. Now, Ralph was like a small time

0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.080
<v Speaker 2>crook at the time who was always into swag like

0:18:43.240 --> 0:18:46.000
<v Speaker 2>selling things, like stealing things and trying to sell things.

0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.399
<v Speaker 2>So during that two year time period, the FBIO is

0:18:49.440 --> 0:18:53.159
<v Speaker 2>always coming up with scenarios to actually ingratiate himself to

0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:56.960
<v Speaker 2>the bad guys, like we would sell stolen cigarettes, we

0:18:57.000 --> 0:19:01.000
<v Speaker 2>would sell stolen TVs like things like that. We would

0:19:01.040 --> 0:19:04.960
<v Speaker 2>front him, and also we would give him authorization to

0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.400
<v Speaker 2>do some criminal acts, right, because you just can't be

0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:12.280
<v Speaker 2>suddenly turned yourself into a choir boy, right. So there's

0:19:12.280 --> 0:19:16.639
<v Speaker 2>a certain authorization based upon coordination with the attorney's office.

0:19:17.000 --> 0:19:20.800
<v Speaker 2>And in New York, in Lower Manhattan, there's two districts.

0:19:20.840 --> 0:19:23.800
<v Speaker 2>There's the Eastern District in the Southern District. Right, this

0:19:23.920 --> 0:19:26.160
<v Speaker 2>case was out of the Southern District of New York.

0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:29.240
<v Speaker 2>So we're working hand in hand with the attorneys to

0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:32.400
<v Speaker 2>get authorization for Ralph to do certain acts because, as

0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:35.320
<v Speaker 2>I said, we're trying to give the impression that he's

0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:38.440
<v Speaker 2>still a bed guy even though we're controlling him. And

0:19:38.480 --> 0:19:40.560
<v Speaker 2>that's what he did. He did that for two years

0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:43.600
<v Speaker 2>and made over three hundred recordings and one of the

0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:46.600
<v Speaker 2>things that we even have the Sopranos starts in January

0:19:46.680 --> 0:19:50.400
<v Speaker 2>of nineteen ninety nine, We have a consensu recording in

0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.800
<v Speaker 2>March of ninety nine of the Dicavalcanties talking about the

0:19:54.880 --> 0:19:59.000
<v Speaker 2>show and actually saying this is you, this is you,

0:19:59.240 --> 0:20:03.080
<v Speaker 2>this is you, which was priceless for trial years later.

0:20:04.119 --> 0:20:07.560
<v Speaker 2>But Ralph did a tremendous job. But there's always a

0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:11.040
<v Speaker 2>safety aspect to it, because when you send a proactive

0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.320
<v Speaker 2>witness out, he could get caught. You you know, I

0:20:14.359 --> 0:20:16.480
<v Speaker 2>can't say what type of device he used or where

0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:19.159
<v Speaker 2>the device was, but there's always that danger element that

0:20:19.240 --> 0:20:21.480
<v Speaker 2>they might find out that he's a witness. And as

0:20:21.480 --> 0:20:24.520
<v Speaker 2>I said, you know, there were always suspicious as to

0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.160
<v Speaker 2>him being out there for two years and hasn't been arrested.

0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:31.159
<v Speaker 1>Well, and also what if his situation escalates unexpectedly and

0:20:31.200 --> 0:20:33.680
<v Speaker 1>he has to kill someone or who's you know, I mean,

0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.760
<v Speaker 1>what does the FBI do in that kind of case.

0:20:36.160 --> 0:20:39.359
<v Speaker 2>Well, that's why there we're constantly trying to monitor him

0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:41.960
<v Speaker 2>and have a surveillance team there so it wouldn't get

0:20:41.960 --> 0:20:44.199
<v Speaker 2>to that. You know, years later, I did have a

0:20:44.240 --> 0:20:46.720
<v Speaker 2>situation when I was a supervisor of a Columbo squad

0:20:46.760 --> 0:20:49.000
<v Speaker 2>where we didn't have a witness kill someone, but he

0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:50.480
<v Speaker 2>did have to hurt somebody.

0:20:50.520 --> 0:20:54.080
<v Speaker 1>So did Ralph testify then be sent into witness protection

0:20:54.200 --> 0:20:57.080
<v Speaker 1>and then end up in Kansas somewhere most likely? Or

0:20:57.080 --> 0:20:57.800
<v Speaker 1>how did that work?

0:20:57.920 --> 0:21:01.200
<v Speaker 2>Okay, So we take that a case and we moved

0:21:01.240 --> 0:21:04.399
<v Speaker 2>Rauph for his safety. Ralph chose because you have an option, right,

0:21:04.440 --> 0:21:06.320
<v Speaker 2>you have an option to go into the Witness Security

0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:08.879
<v Speaker 2>program or not. The Witness Security program is run by

0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:12.360
<v Speaker 2>the US Marshall Service. Ralph chose not to go into

0:21:12.400 --> 0:21:15.080
<v Speaker 2>the program. He chose to be relocated, which we did

0:21:15.200 --> 0:21:18.480
<v Speaker 2>relocate him because the case was so successful, and we're

0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:21.240
<v Speaker 2>going to get into how it kind of spiraled into

0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:26.399
<v Speaker 2>effects of cooperation. Ralph at the end didn't need to testify.

0:21:26.880 --> 0:21:30.320
<v Speaker 2>The tapes stood by themselves, and I'll start to explain

0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:33.400
<v Speaker 2>how we started to unravel the case. So I'm tasked

0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:37.600
<v Speaker 2>with arresting Anthony Capo, a violent Decavalcanti soldier who is

0:21:37.800 --> 0:21:42.119
<v Speaker 2>hated by law enforcement and also not well liked within

0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.399
<v Speaker 2>the mob himself. He was such a violent person that

0:21:45.440 --> 0:21:49.040
<v Speaker 2>at that particular time, he was reporting to the acting

0:21:49.119 --> 0:21:53.199
<v Speaker 2>boss of the Decavalcanti family, Vincent Palermo. So what I

0:21:53.240 --> 0:21:55.199
<v Speaker 2>did is when I went to go arrest him, I

0:21:55.240 --> 0:21:58.560
<v Speaker 2>had witnessed George how he treated Ralph for those two years.

0:21:59.080 --> 0:22:04.119
<v Speaker 2>And despite the background that Anthony had of being hated

0:22:04.160 --> 0:22:06.320
<v Speaker 2>by a law enforcement I wasn't going to treat him

0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.000
<v Speaker 2>that way. I was going to treat him with respect.

0:22:08.400 --> 0:22:10.720
<v Speaker 2>And I studied him like you would study for a test.

0:22:11.200 --> 0:22:13.760
<v Speaker 2>So I knew everything about him. I knew everything about

0:22:13.760 --> 0:22:17.199
<v Speaker 2>his family, his kids, their dates of birds, social Security numbers,

0:22:17.240 --> 0:22:20.320
<v Speaker 2>phone numbers, I knew everything about his charges. So, as

0:22:20.320 --> 0:22:22.680
<v Speaker 2>I said, when we went to go arrest him, he

0:22:22.800 --> 0:22:26.680
<v Speaker 2>wasn't there, and all the planning that you do went

0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.000
<v Speaker 2>out the window. And when we went to arrest him,

0:22:28.840 --> 0:22:31.280
<v Speaker 2>his wife told us that he was at his mom's house.

0:22:31.960 --> 0:22:33.679
<v Speaker 2>So when I went to his mother's house with the

0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:37.919
<v Speaker 2>arrest team, I didn't see this hated person that I

0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:40.600
<v Speaker 2>had learned about or that I was told about. I

0:22:40.640 --> 0:22:43.199
<v Speaker 2>saw actually a very loving relationship that he had with

0:22:43.240 --> 0:22:45.840
<v Speaker 2>his family, which threw me for a loop. So I

0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.560
<v Speaker 2>did arrest him, and when we got him dressed and

0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.480
<v Speaker 2>he came out, he was wearing a Dallas Cowboy jacket.

0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:53.320
<v Speaker 2>Now I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler fan.

0:22:53.440 --> 0:22:55.679
<v Speaker 1>It would neither of you support a football team in

0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:57.639
<v Speaker 1>New York or New Jersey.

0:22:58.440 --> 0:23:00.920
<v Speaker 2>Well, you see, in the seventies, the Steelers were good,

0:23:00.920 --> 0:23:03.280
<v Speaker 2>and I'm a loyal person and I stayed with them.

0:23:03.520 --> 0:23:05.840
<v Speaker 2>And I guess he had the same type of thinking

0:23:05.880 --> 0:23:09.680
<v Speaker 2>as well. So when I did arrest him, I brought

0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:11.920
<v Speaker 2>him out, and I had did my homework on him,

0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.560
<v Speaker 2>and he was a diabetic, so I made sure that

0:23:14.640 --> 0:23:18.119
<v Speaker 2>I had orange juice and cholcle with me in cases

0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:22.280
<v Speaker 2>blood sugar dropped. And he saw that as a signed

0:23:22.359 --> 0:23:25.919
<v Speaker 2>me being a decent human being. Right, And he had

0:23:25.960 --> 0:23:28.919
<v Speaker 2>told me years later that no one had ever treated

0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:32.040
<v Speaker 2>him with respect. All. His interaction with law enforcement was

0:23:32.040 --> 0:23:34.800
<v Speaker 2>hostile too, And we always know that there's two sides

0:23:34.800 --> 0:23:37.120
<v Speaker 2>to every story, right, So even though I had heard

0:23:37.119 --> 0:23:39.359
<v Speaker 2>an aran that he was hostile to law enforcement, I

0:23:39.359 --> 0:23:41.920
<v Speaker 2>guess the interaction on the other side was the same way.

0:23:45.320 --> 0:23:47.840
<v Speaker 1>How would law enforcement interact with one of these guys

0:23:47.840 --> 0:23:50.800
<v Speaker 1>who were arrested and associate or made person whoever? Is

0:23:50.800 --> 0:23:53.040
<v Speaker 1>it with physical aggression? I mean, what is the best

0:23:53.040 --> 0:23:55.919
<v Speaker 1>way beside your way to get information out of somebody

0:23:56.000 --> 0:23:56.280
<v Speaker 1>like that?

0:23:56.640 --> 0:23:59.399
<v Speaker 2>Well, I don't think it's physical aggression. I guess I

0:23:59.440 --> 0:24:02.480
<v Speaker 2>think it's it's your verbal tone. And I think it's

0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:05.360
<v Speaker 2>how you interact with them. And I was always taught

0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:08.560
<v Speaker 2>you get more bees with honey. That's the approach that

0:24:08.880 --> 0:24:11.920
<v Speaker 2>you should take. And one thing that even years later,

0:24:11.960 --> 0:24:13.800
<v Speaker 2>as I said, this is just a start of my career,

0:24:14.080 --> 0:24:17.160
<v Speaker 2>I used to always tell people too, do not make

0:24:17.240 --> 0:24:20.159
<v Speaker 2>this personal, because one day you're going to have to

0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:22.960
<v Speaker 2>turn in your badge and your gun and the mob

0:24:23.040 --> 0:24:26.879
<v Speaker 2>that doesn't forget, So don't make this personal. And also,

0:24:27.480 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>the mob can size you up very very quickly. They'll

0:24:30.320 --> 0:24:32.320
<v Speaker 2>know within a minute or two if you're a tough

0:24:32.359 --> 0:24:34.000
<v Speaker 2>guy or not, So don't try to be a tough

0:24:34.040 --> 0:24:36.840
<v Speaker 2>guy if you're not. That's always the approach that I took.

0:24:37.520 --> 0:24:39.960
<v Speaker 2>So I decided to treat him with respect. And as

0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.439
<v Speaker 2>I said, I studied him like left and right. So

0:24:43.240 --> 0:24:46.040
<v Speaker 2>I had some banter back and forth with him, and

0:24:46.080 --> 0:24:48.359
<v Speaker 2>then I read him his rights and he invoked his

0:24:48.480 --> 0:24:51.080
<v Speaker 2>right to counsel and his right to remain silent, and

0:24:51.080 --> 0:24:54.400
<v Speaker 2>that's exactly what I wanted him to do. So then

0:24:54.720 --> 0:24:57.000
<v Speaker 2>there's some general questions that I can ask him, such

0:24:57.040 --> 0:24:59.040
<v Speaker 2>as what's your day of birth? You know, where do

0:24:59.080 --> 0:25:00.680
<v Speaker 2>you live and all this stuff. And when I was

0:25:00.720 --> 0:25:04.160
<v Speaker 2>asking these questions, before he could answer, I would give

0:25:04.240 --> 0:25:07.040
<v Speaker 2>him the answer, and I was playing with him, letting

0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:08.960
<v Speaker 2>him know that I knew a lot more about him

0:25:08.960 --> 0:25:10.800
<v Speaker 2>than he thought I knew. Then, when I started to

0:25:10.800 --> 0:25:13.240
<v Speaker 2>talk to him about the charges, because he invoked his

0:25:13.359 --> 0:25:16.359
<v Speaker 2>right to counsel and remained silent, I told him, do

0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:19.520
<v Speaker 2>not say anything, because I can no longer ask him

0:25:19.600 --> 0:25:23.400
<v Speaker 2>questions legally, that doesn't stop me from giving him a statement.

0:25:23.640 --> 0:25:25.480
<v Speaker 2>So what I did is he was charged with two

0:25:25.480 --> 0:25:29.080
<v Speaker 2>things at that particular time, conspiracy to murdered Charlie Majury,

0:25:29.200 --> 0:25:32.480
<v Speaker 2>who is an acting panel boss, and mail fraud. So

0:25:32.560 --> 0:25:36.320
<v Speaker 2>I said, related to your conspiracy murdered Charlie Majury, your

0:25:36.440 --> 0:25:39.680
<v Speaker 2>plan was to ring his doorbell and shoot him in

0:25:39.720 --> 0:25:42.119
<v Speaker 2>the face. The reason that you didn't do that was

0:25:42.160 --> 0:25:44.399
<v Speaker 2>because there was a cop on the block. And again

0:25:44.440 --> 0:25:47.360
<v Speaker 2>I said, don't say anything. Now Here I am. I'm

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:51.119
<v Speaker 2>giving him facts which I know are true. I know

0:25:51.240 --> 0:25:53.960
<v Speaker 2>they're true because they were on a consensual recording where

0:25:53.960 --> 0:25:56.600
<v Speaker 2>he's talked about it. Now, you got to put yourself

0:25:56.640 --> 0:25:59.320
<v Speaker 2>in his shoes at six o'clock in the morning. He

0:25:59.359 --> 0:26:01.959
<v Speaker 2>doesn't know where where this evidence is coming from. He

0:26:02.000 --> 0:26:04.840
<v Speaker 2>doesn't know Ralph is a cooperating witness for the government,

0:26:05.240 --> 0:26:07.800
<v Speaker 2>and he knows I'm not lying. And that's the thing is,

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:09.840
<v Speaker 2>if you lie to these guys, you're done. So that

0:26:09.960 --> 0:26:13.040
<v Speaker 2>was the first thing. The second thing was the mail fraud. Now,

0:26:13.080 --> 0:26:15.680
<v Speaker 2>back in the day, if you remember, you could rent

0:26:15.720 --> 0:26:18.160
<v Speaker 2>a mailbox and it would say sweet and you would

0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:20.080
<v Speaker 2>be led to believe that you would have this nice

0:26:20.200 --> 0:26:22.720
<v Speaker 2>office building. Well that's what they did, related to a

0:26:22.760 --> 0:26:24.800
<v Speaker 2>mail fraud that was going to lead to stock fraud.

0:26:25.119 --> 0:26:27.720
<v Speaker 2>So I just a little shot saying, oh, that was

0:26:27.760 --> 0:26:30.639
<v Speaker 2>really cute that you guys did that, and again told him,

0:26:30.680 --> 0:26:32.800
<v Speaker 2>don't say anything, and then I would make him think

0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:34.480
<v Speaker 2>for a little bit as I talked to the driver,

0:26:35.119 --> 0:26:37.280
<v Speaker 2>and we had this banter back and forth all day,

0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:40.040
<v Speaker 2>and I treated him with respect, and I treated his

0:26:40.080 --> 0:26:42.520
<v Speaker 2>family with respect, and I treated his stepfather with respect,

0:26:42.560 --> 0:26:44.840
<v Speaker 2>who I had to meet later that day. And this

0:26:45.040 --> 0:26:47.919
<v Speaker 2>just went on all all day. And then about a

0:26:47.960 --> 0:26:50.480
<v Speaker 2>week later, I got a phone call from his attorney

0:26:50.640 --> 0:26:53.959
<v Speaker 2>and his attorney said he wanted to cooperate. Now, unbeknownst

0:26:53.960 --> 0:26:56.080
<v Speaker 2>to me because I'm a new agent, but at that

0:26:56.119 --> 0:27:00.280
<v Speaker 2>point in time, no main member in the decavalcantis your

0:27:00.359 --> 0:27:03.639
<v Speaker 2>history had ever cooperated with the government before. This was

0:27:03.720 --> 0:27:06.560
<v Speaker 2>kind of a shock to me. Right, I wasn't expecting this.

0:27:06.760 --> 0:27:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I was just treating him with respect and treating him

0:27:09.000 --> 0:27:11.720
<v Speaker 2>as a decent human being, not knowing where it was

0:27:11.760 --> 0:27:14.240
<v Speaker 2>going to go. But that's when my world changed.

0:27:14.760 --> 0:27:17.600
<v Speaker 1>Were your superiors giving you so much leeway that you

0:27:17.640 --> 0:27:19.439
<v Speaker 1>were allowed to do this or did anybody look at

0:27:19.440 --> 0:27:22.600
<v Speaker 1>you sideyed, like going, what are you doing with this jerk,

0:27:22.640 --> 0:27:25.320
<v Speaker 1>this killer, this awful person who has tortured people and

0:27:25.359 --> 0:27:26.600
<v Speaker 1>you're giving him orange juice?

0:27:26.840 --> 0:27:30.000
<v Speaker 2>No, they kind of laughed that I was able to

0:27:30.080 --> 0:27:34.280
<v Speaker 2>flip him by being sincere. What did happen was there

0:27:34.400 --> 0:27:38.080
<v Speaker 2>was whispers and talk that I was too young and

0:27:38.160 --> 0:27:41.600
<v Speaker 2>too new to run a guy like this as a

0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:44.760
<v Speaker 2>maid member, that I didn't have the experience. But my

0:27:44.840 --> 0:27:48.439
<v Speaker 2>supervisor at the time, Jack Stubing, he believed in me

0:27:48.840 --> 0:27:52.000
<v Speaker 2>and he said, no, he flipped him. He deserves to

0:27:52.040 --> 0:27:55.240
<v Speaker 2>run him. And that's what happened. I was able to

0:27:55.280 --> 0:27:58.720
<v Speaker 2>run him. And what happens is when I got that call,

0:27:58.960 --> 0:28:02.479
<v Speaker 2>I immediately called the assistant from the Southern District, Maria Barton,

0:28:02.720 --> 0:28:06.160
<v Speaker 2>and she was a seasoned attorney, and she was immediately

0:28:06.200 --> 0:28:08.560
<v Speaker 2>nervous as to what did I say to the attorney,

0:28:08.600 --> 0:28:11.720
<v Speaker 2>And in situations like this, less is more. So I

0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.240
<v Speaker 2>just told her that I told him that I would

0:28:14.359 --> 0:28:17.800
<v Speaker 2>call you so and then what happens is And this

0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:19.280
<v Speaker 2>is one of the things about the book that I

0:28:19.320 --> 0:28:24.040
<v Speaker 2>try to explain is how the cooperation process starts and

0:28:24.080 --> 0:28:27.400
<v Speaker 2>how it actually goes through. And actually I explain trials,

0:28:27.440 --> 0:28:29.159
<v Speaker 2>and this is I don't think it's been done too

0:28:29.240 --> 0:28:33.040
<v Speaker 2>much before. So you start a proffer, that's the first

0:28:33.200 --> 0:28:35.800
<v Speaker 2>thing that you do. And a profit is an agreement

0:28:35.840 --> 0:28:40.800
<v Speaker 2>between the government and defense attorney and the defendant where

0:28:40.840 --> 0:28:43.280
<v Speaker 2>the defendant has to come in and he has to

0:28:43.280 --> 0:28:45.400
<v Speaker 2>tell you the truth and he has to tell you

0:28:45.520 --> 0:28:49.880
<v Speaker 2>all his crimes. So it's a very dicey situation because

0:28:49.920 --> 0:28:54.080
<v Speaker 2>you're moving the defendant from prison in a very short

0:28:54.120 --> 0:28:56.280
<v Speaker 2>period of time, and the bad guy's going to know

0:28:56.360 --> 0:28:59.480
<v Speaker 2>that he's not in prison, and so he can't He

0:28:59.520 --> 0:29:03.200
<v Speaker 2>has to come prepared, and you can't be half pregnant.

0:29:03.320 --> 0:29:04.840
<v Speaker 2>You have to make sure that if you're going to

0:29:04.920 --> 0:29:06.840
<v Speaker 2>do this, you're going to make sure you're going to

0:29:06.920 --> 0:29:10.800
<v Speaker 2>honestly do it. So we schedule a profit with Anthony,

0:29:11.560 --> 0:29:15.080
<v Speaker 2>and I'm in the session with the attorney. I'm in

0:29:15.080 --> 0:29:17.600
<v Speaker 2>the session with George Hannah, the legend that I talked about,

0:29:17.680 --> 0:29:21.640
<v Speaker 2>and another Southern District investigator, Kenny McCabe, another legend, and

0:29:21.760 --> 0:29:26.440
<v Speaker 2>myself the attorney for Anthony Capo and Anthony, and Anthony

0:29:27.040 --> 0:29:29.080
<v Speaker 2>comes clean. The first thing that you want to do

0:29:29.120 --> 0:29:32.160
<v Speaker 2>when you have a profit is you want the defendant

0:29:32.560 --> 0:29:36.360
<v Speaker 2>to admit the charges that he's charged with. So we

0:29:36.400 --> 0:29:38.520
<v Speaker 2>want to make sure that what he's charged with were

0:29:38.560 --> 0:29:42.760
<v Speaker 2>actually correct. So make him eat the indictment. It's called

0:29:43.000 --> 0:29:46.000
<v Speaker 2>that he's going to tell us that the conspiracy to

0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 2>murdered Charlie Majury, that he's guilty of that and also

0:29:49.840 --> 0:29:53.360
<v Speaker 2>guilty of the mail fraud. And he does. Then he

0:29:53.440 --> 0:29:56.080
<v Speaker 2>blows us out of the water. The first three things

0:29:56.080 --> 0:29:58.920
<v Speaker 2>that he tells us is there's a leak in the

0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:03.240
<v Speaker 2>Southern District. That's why he wasn't home, That's why numerous

0:30:03.240 --> 0:30:04.560
<v Speaker 2>people weren't home that day.

0:30:04.840 --> 0:30:06.840
<v Speaker 1>Is that FBI leak or what kind of leak is that?

0:30:07.320 --> 0:30:09.440
<v Speaker 2>So the case is out of the Southern District of

0:30:09.440 --> 0:30:13.360
<v Speaker 2>New York, that's the prosecutor's office. So there was an

0:30:13.360 --> 0:30:18.320
<v Speaker 2>alleged court reporter who was feeding information to the bad guys.

0:30:18.400 --> 0:30:22.040
<v Speaker 2>And we'll get to all the arrests later, but that's

0:30:22.080 --> 0:30:23.960
<v Speaker 2>what he tells us. That there's a leak in the

0:30:24.000 --> 0:30:26.840
<v Speaker 2>Southern District and we knew you guys were coming, so

0:30:27.520 --> 0:30:29.480
<v Speaker 2>you know that could have been a danger element where

0:30:29.520 --> 0:30:30.640
<v Speaker 2>someone could have gotten hurt.

0:30:30.920 --> 0:30:33.600
<v Speaker 1>Did anybody suspect Ralph.

0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:35.800
<v Speaker 2>Well, they didn't know. They knew that there was a

0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:38.760
<v Speaker 2>rat among them. They didn't know it was Ralph though.

0:30:39.520 --> 0:30:42.560
<v Speaker 2>And during that time period, what happens is Bennie Palermo,

0:30:42.680 --> 0:30:45.720
<v Speaker 2>the acting boss before the arrest, he wanted to kill

0:30:45.760 --> 0:30:48.280
<v Speaker 2>a bunch of people because his paranoia story had to

0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:51.680
<v Speaker 2>run rampant. Ralph was one of them. This other guy

0:30:51.760 --> 0:30:53.960
<v Speaker 2>named Frank Scarabina was another one. There was like four

0:30:54.040 --> 0:30:55.960
<v Speaker 2>or five people that he wanted to kill because he

0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:58.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't know who the rat was. All that they knew

0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 2>is someone around them had been talking to the Feds

0:31:01.160 --> 0:31:03.640
<v Speaker 2>for two years. They didn't know who it actually was.

0:31:04.560 --> 0:31:06.720
<v Speaker 2>So that's the first thing that he tells us. The

0:31:06.800 --> 0:31:10.080
<v Speaker 2>second thing that he tells us is that he was

0:31:10.160 --> 0:31:12.400
<v Speaker 2>involved in the murder of a guy named Fred Weiss.

0:31:12.840 --> 0:31:16.400
<v Speaker 2>Fred Weiss was a Jewish businessman from Staten Island who

0:31:16.440 --> 0:31:20.560
<v Speaker 2>was killed on September eleventh, Horrible Day of nineteen eighty nine.

0:31:20.840 --> 0:31:24.200
<v Speaker 2>The reason that he was killed is because John Gotti

0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:28.680
<v Speaker 2>wanted him killed. John Gotty wanted him killed because John

0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:32.360
<v Speaker 2>Gotty thought mister Weiss was cooperating with the government. The

0:31:32.440 --> 0:31:35.280
<v Speaker 2>reason he thought he was cooperating with the government is

0:31:35.360 --> 0:31:40.320
<v Speaker 2>because he switched lawyers. That's the only reason that he

0:31:40.400 --> 0:31:44.520
<v Speaker 2>thought he was cooperating in the government, pure paranoia. He

0:31:44.640 --> 0:31:48.280
<v Speaker 2>was not cooperating with the government. Now, from a new

0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:52.280
<v Speaker 2>agent perspective, as I just told you before, I'm going

0:31:52.360 --> 0:31:57.160
<v Speaker 2>from reading about the mob, Samuel the Bull and John Gotti,

0:31:57.200 --> 0:32:01.000
<v Speaker 2>it's actually hearing about a murder that John Gotti has

0:32:01.040 --> 0:32:04.200
<v Speaker 2>now authorized. All this within a year, so this is

0:32:04.320 --> 0:32:07.240
<v Speaker 2>very surreal to me. Then, the third thing that he

0:32:07.320 --> 0:32:10.600
<v Speaker 2>tells us is that he was the shooter in the

0:32:10.720 --> 0:32:14.240
<v Speaker 2>murder of John Demotto, and John Dematto was the acting

0:32:14.360 --> 0:32:18.840
<v Speaker 2>underboss of the Decalbalcanti family who was killed because he

0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:22.560
<v Speaker 2>was going to sex clubs and having sex with men.

0:32:23.000 --> 0:32:26.120
<v Speaker 2>That's another angle related to the Sopranos. So these are

0:32:26.160 --> 0:32:28.040
<v Speaker 2>three things that he tells us out of the gate

0:32:28.360 --> 0:32:32.400
<v Speaker 2>he has just exposed himself to a life sentence as

0:32:32.440 --> 0:32:36.080
<v Speaker 2>opposed to twenty years. So we all have to huddle

0:32:36.320 --> 0:32:40.160
<v Speaker 2>and basically determine if he's telling us the truth. Of course,

0:32:40.800 --> 0:32:42.800
<v Speaker 2>we say he's telling us the truth because he just

0:32:42.880 --> 0:32:46.640
<v Speaker 2>exposes himself to a life sentence. And then we have

0:32:46.720 --> 0:32:49.160
<v Speaker 2>to move him. We have to plan to move him

0:32:49.320 --> 0:32:53.600
<v Speaker 2>to another facility. We also, he didn't put the bodies,

0:32:53.600 --> 0:32:55.800
<v Speaker 2>but he tells us where he thinks the bodies might

0:32:55.840 --> 0:32:58.600
<v Speaker 2>be buried. So when this happens, you then have to

0:32:58.600 --> 0:33:00.720
<v Speaker 2>get a search warrant and you have to do a search.

0:33:01.120 --> 0:33:04.160
<v Speaker 2>Finding a body, even if it is in a basement,

0:33:04.360 --> 0:33:07.160
<v Speaker 2>is very hard to do. Throughout my career, I've been

0:33:07.200 --> 0:33:10.400
<v Speaker 2>extremely successful where I've been able to recover five bodies,

0:33:10.800 --> 0:33:14.080
<v Speaker 2>but this is very hard to do. The area that

0:33:14.160 --> 0:33:16.800
<v Speaker 2>he told us was in Marlboro, New York, and it

0:33:16.880 --> 0:33:21.480
<v Speaker 2>was at a recycling plant. That recycling plant had been rebuilt.

0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:24.360
<v Speaker 2>It was a very vast area. And this is in

0:33:24.440 --> 0:33:28.200
<v Speaker 2>December of nineteen ninety nine, probably December like fourteenth or so.

0:33:28.280 --> 0:33:31.360
<v Speaker 2>We start to do a search. We searched for three days.

0:33:31.480 --> 0:33:34.000
<v Speaker 2>We can't find any of the bodies up there. Again,

0:33:34.040 --> 0:33:36.400
<v Speaker 2>it's really really hard to find a body, and this

0:33:36.560 --> 0:33:40.840
<v Speaker 2>area was umongous. Also during this time period, personally, I'm

0:33:40.880 --> 0:33:43.640
<v Speaker 2>going through some tough things where my dad had gotten sick.

0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:46.800
<v Speaker 2>My dad was diagnosed with brain cancer in March of

0:33:46.880 --> 0:33:49.880
<v Speaker 2>ninety nine that year, and he was kind of at

0:33:49.880 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 2>the end. What happened was when we finished digging for

0:33:54.000 --> 0:33:56.920
<v Speaker 2>the bodies in Marlborough, New York. That night I went

0:33:56.960 --> 0:33:59.480
<v Speaker 2>to go visit him. He was in a hospice home,

0:34:00.280 --> 0:34:03.880
<v Speaker 2>and my mom, who was very religious, she basically told

0:34:03.920 --> 0:34:06.840
<v Speaker 2>me and my brother that we shouldn't leave, and she

0:34:07.000 --> 0:34:10.520
<v Speaker 2>had just a thought process that something might happen that night,

0:34:11.200 --> 0:34:13.640
<v Speaker 2>and sure enough, we stayed and he passed that night.

0:34:14.480 --> 0:34:17.120
<v Speaker 2>So all this is going on at the same time,

0:34:17.400 --> 0:34:21.960
<v Speaker 2>arresting Anthony Capo, him flipping, my dad passing away, and

0:34:22.000 --> 0:34:24.839
<v Speaker 2>one of the eerie things that does happen, like two

0:34:24.880 --> 0:34:29.000
<v Speaker 2>days later when we have my dad's wake, is Anthony

0:34:29.160 --> 0:34:31.400
<v Speaker 2>found out who we had moved to a different facility.

0:34:31.680 --> 0:34:34.560
<v Speaker 2>Anthony found out that my dad passed, and he called

0:34:34.880 --> 0:34:36.960
<v Speaker 2>me while I was at the funeral home to offer

0:34:37.040 --> 0:34:41.200
<v Speaker 2>his condolences, which was very weird to me because just

0:34:41.239 --> 0:34:44.200
<v Speaker 2>two days earlier we were at a gravesite looking for

0:34:44.239 --> 0:34:47.320
<v Speaker 2>bodies that he helped put there. So just very very odd.

0:34:48.200 --> 0:34:50.640
<v Speaker 2>But I was going through a lot at that particular time.

0:34:50.960 --> 0:34:53.040
<v Speaker 1>I've said this on the show before. I've talked to

0:34:53.520 --> 0:34:56.400
<v Speaker 1>forensic psychologists because you know, I'll talk about serial killers

0:34:56.760 --> 0:34:58.960
<v Speaker 1>or murderers and I'll say, you know, they have no roles,

0:34:59.000 --> 0:35:00.840
<v Speaker 1>they have no ethics, and they say, of course they do.

0:35:00.880 --> 0:35:04.479
<v Speaker 1>They're just not the ones you have or general society has.

0:35:04.719 --> 0:35:08.000
<v Speaker 1>They have boundaries, they have lines they won't cross, they

0:35:08.040 --> 0:35:10.319
<v Speaker 1>have passions and all of this stuff. You just can't

0:35:10.360 --> 0:35:12.920
<v Speaker 1>relate to it necessarily. And that's what I was thinking

0:35:12.960 --> 0:35:15.640
<v Speaker 1>the whole time with Kapo, was there's so much of

0:35:15.680 --> 0:35:20.320
<v Speaker 1>that respect and you know, wanting to not be minimized

0:35:20.840 --> 0:35:24.000
<v Speaker 1>or anything. And so I could absolutely, one hundred percent

0:35:24.080 --> 0:35:26.880
<v Speaker 1>see somebody like that wanting to respond to you with

0:35:27.000 --> 0:35:30.680
<v Speaker 1>like kindness. So it sounds like a really good approach.

0:35:30.880 --> 0:35:34.120
<v Speaker 1>And I do wonder if agents behind you end up

0:35:34.120 --> 0:35:36.000
<v Speaker 1>doing the same kind of thing, if they learn from that.

0:35:36.440 --> 0:35:38.080
<v Speaker 2>I went on to run the Columbo squad and we

0:35:38.120 --> 0:35:41.839
<v Speaker 2>were extremely successful there, and we'd dismantle that family too,

0:35:41.840 --> 0:35:44.120
<v Speaker 2>and we flipped a lot of people there as well,

0:35:45.160 --> 0:35:47.720
<v Speaker 2>so related to Anthony, we get him in the door

0:35:47.920 --> 0:35:49.719
<v Speaker 2>and again, as I said, this is the first mad

0:35:49.840 --> 0:35:54.480
<v Speaker 2>member we have, and then Anthony basically opens up the floodgates.

0:35:55.239 --> 0:35:58.720
<v Speaker 2>About three months later, as I said before, he reported

0:35:58.760 --> 0:36:03.000
<v Speaker 2>to Vincent Palermo was the acting boss. Vincent Palermo is

0:36:03.040 --> 0:36:06.200
<v Speaker 2>a businessman. Vincent Palermo did a lot of his criminal

0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:10.200
<v Speaker 2>acts with Anthony. In March of two thousand, Vinnie decides

0:36:10.239 --> 0:36:13.760
<v Speaker 2>to cooperate. Now, as we talk about the show, Vinnie

0:36:14.280 --> 0:36:17.279
<v Speaker 2>had a strip club in Queen's called Wiggles. That's the

0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:20.400
<v Speaker 2>real strip club as opposed to the one that's depicted

0:36:20.400 --> 0:36:20.879
<v Speaker 2>in the show.

0:36:21.200 --> 0:36:25.360
<v Speaker 1>So who is Anthony Soprano? Was that Vinnie Palermo.

0:36:25.640 --> 0:36:28.200
<v Speaker 2>The real boss in the show would be Vincent Palermo.

0:36:28.760 --> 0:36:31.359
<v Speaker 1>Okay, so did he have the same kind of conflicts,

0:36:31.400 --> 0:36:32.920
<v Speaker 1>family conflicts or anything.

0:36:33.239 --> 0:36:35.560
<v Speaker 2>He had family conflicts, but he would never go go

0:36:35.640 --> 0:36:38.240
<v Speaker 2>to a shrink to discuss them. That would never happen.

0:36:38.360 --> 0:36:39.920
<v Speaker 2>That's just a plot they have in the show that

0:36:39.920 --> 0:36:42.799
<v Speaker 2>would never happen. The thing that's interesting in the show too,

0:36:42.880 --> 0:36:45.920
<v Speaker 2>if you watched the first season, you have the boss

0:36:46.000 --> 0:36:48.880
<v Speaker 2>dying of stomach cancer. The real boss dying of stomach cancer,

0:36:49.800 --> 0:36:51.959
<v Speaker 2>even though, as we said before, the director didn't speak

0:36:51.960 --> 0:36:55.960
<v Speaker 2>to anybody in real life. Jacob Mauri, who was the

0:36:56.000 --> 0:36:59.360
<v Speaker 2>acting boss, dies of stomach cancer in June of nineteen

0:36:59.440 --> 0:37:02.720
<v Speaker 2>ninety seven. That to me is just very ironic.

0:37:03.440 --> 0:37:08.440
<v Speaker 1>What is the expectation of Vinnie Palermo when somebody like

0:37:08.760 --> 0:37:12.520
<v Speaker 1>Capo is arrested. Is the expectation that they're going to

0:37:12.600 --> 0:37:15.600
<v Speaker 1>let the mob attorneys take care of it, keep your

0:37:15.640 --> 0:37:18.120
<v Speaker 1>mouth shut, will either try to get you out or

0:37:18.160 --> 0:37:20.160
<v Speaker 1>you never say a word and nobody will shank you

0:37:20.239 --> 0:37:20.720
<v Speaker 1>in prison.

0:37:21.000 --> 0:37:23.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, Vinnie was arrested to that day. Oh yeah, so

0:37:23.640 --> 0:37:25.239
<v Speaker 2>he was one of the thirty nine people that was

0:37:25.280 --> 0:37:28.480
<v Speaker 2>locked up that day as well. So they expect everyone

0:37:28.520 --> 0:37:30.760
<v Speaker 2>just to keep them outh shut, that's what they're expecting,

0:37:30.760 --> 0:37:32.680
<v Speaker 2>and just to do your time and to move on

0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:35.560
<v Speaker 2>and hopefully we can beat this case or maybe get

0:37:35.600 --> 0:37:38.399
<v Speaker 2>to a juror so that the case gets thrown out

0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:40.080
<v Speaker 2>because they've gotten the juries before.

0:37:40.280 --> 0:37:42.480
<v Speaker 1>And Anthony and his attorney are not looking for some

0:37:42.600 --> 0:37:44.160
<v Speaker 1>kind of a deal. What are they looking for and

0:37:44.280 --> 0:37:46.320
<v Speaker 1>doing all of this, He's offering so much information.

0:37:46.719 --> 0:37:49.279
<v Speaker 2>They're looking for a reduction in their sentence and they're

0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:51.239
<v Speaker 2>looking for a second chance at life, but.

0:37:51.200 --> 0:37:54.320
<v Speaker 1>They're he's going the opposite direction by, you know, admitting

0:37:54.400 --> 0:37:56.120
<v Speaker 1>all of these things. And you said this would have

0:37:56.120 --> 0:37:59.200
<v Speaker 1>all landed him life in prison when he how much

0:37:59.200 --> 0:38:01.360
<v Speaker 1>would he have gotten if he had kept his mouth shut?

0:38:01.520 --> 0:38:04.040
<v Speaker 2>He could have been exposed to twenty years, twenty to

0:38:04.040 --> 0:38:07.040
<v Speaker 2>twenty five years? Okay, No, as I said, he's exposed

0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:10.160
<v Speaker 2>himself to life, but he's rolling the dice and he's

0:38:10.200 --> 0:38:12.440
<v Speaker 2>trusting me that he's going to get a reduction in

0:38:12.520 --> 0:38:13.040
<v Speaker 2>a sentence.

0:38:13.600 --> 0:38:17.520
<v Speaker 1>Is Benny aware that he's been moved? Does anybody suspect

0:38:17.640 --> 0:38:20.440
<v Speaker 1>that Capo would be the one who would flip if anyone.

0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.280
<v Speaker 2>Once we did the search wine up in Marlborough, New York,

0:38:23.560 --> 0:38:27.279
<v Speaker 2>and once word travels extremely quickly when you don't go

0:38:27.360 --> 0:38:30.080
<v Speaker 2>back to your prison cell. So then they knew Anthony

0:38:30.160 --> 0:38:33.919
<v Speaker 2>was cooperating. So that's why Benny cooperated. So as I said,

0:38:33.920 --> 0:38:38.240
<v Speaker 2>Bennie cooperated in March of two thousand. Then a month later,

0:38:38.760 --> 0:38:42.000
<v Speaker 2>a gentleman named Victor de Kierra cooperates. So now we

0:38:42.120 --> 0:38:47.720
<v Speaker 2>have three people cooperating rather quickly, an associate, a panel boss,

0:38:48.040 --> 0:38:51.040
<v Speaker 2>and Anthony a soldier. And also Ralph. So we have

0:38:51.160 --> 0:38:53.759
<v Speaker 2>four total people as opposed to having no one in

0:38:53.800 --> 0:38:56.680
<v Speaker 2>one hundred years. We have four people rather quickly. So

0:38:56.719 --> 0:38:58.800
<v Speaker 2>what we do is we do the same thing. We

0:38:59.000 --> 0:39:01.920
<v Speaker 2>proffer and then you proffer, and that leads to a

0:39:01.960 --> 0:39:05.200
<v Speaker 2>cooperation agreement. When you get to a cooperation agreement, you

0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:09.600
<v Speaker 2>have to plead guilty. You plead guilty to all your crimes,

0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:13.280
<v Speaker 2>basically every crime you ever did. So when Anthony played guilty,

0:39:13.320 --> 0:39:15.839
<v Speaker 2>he played guilty in June of two thousand that year.

0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:21.280
<v Speaker 2>He ended up pleading to two murders, eleven murder conspiracies,

0:39:22.160 --> 0:39:24.680
<v Speaker 2>and every crime that you could think of, So that

0:39:25.719 --> 0:39:28.759
<v Speaker 2>was his plea. Vinnie and Victor do the same thing.

0:39:29.320 --> 0:39:32.200
<v Speaker 2>So we take all their information and now we want

0:39:32.239 --> 0:39:34.960
<v Speaker 2>to have a superseding indictment where we're going to go

0:39:35.080 --> 0:39:37.960
<v Speaker 2>out and use all their information and arrest more people.

0:39:38.160 --> 0:39:41.280
<v Speaker 2>And that's what we do. In October of two thousand.

0:39:41.520 --> 0:39:45.560
<v Speaker 2>We then arrest the official boss, the Consiglieri, a bunch

0:39:45.640 --> 0:39:48.719
<v Speaker 2>of captains and soldiers who was known as the hierarchy.

0:39:48.840 --> 0:39:53.400
<v Speaker 2>Arrest and from there that's when things get real real quickly.

0:39:53.640 --> 0:39:58.080
<v Speaker 2>Associated comes forward. His name is Frank Scarabino. His nickname

0:39:58.120 --> 0:40:02.120
<v Speaker 2>was Frankie the Beast. Frankie the Beast comes forward and

0:40:02.280 --> 0:40:06.279
<v Speaker 2>says he wants to cooperate and that he's got the

0:40:06.360 --> 0:40:11.720
<v Speaker 2>contract to kill Anthony Capo, to kill Anthony Capo's kids,

0:40:12.480 --> 0:40:15.839
<v Speaker 2>and to hurt law enforcement. So I always say, hard

0:40:15.880 --> 0:40:19.360
<v Speaker 2>work leads to good luck, thankfully. As you mentioned therefore,

0:40:19.520 --> 0:40:23.319
<v Speaker 2>that some of these guys had boundaries. His boundary was

0:40:23.880 --> 0:40:26.840
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't going to hurt kids. That was the line

0:40:26.840 --> 0:40:29.960
<v Speaker 2>for him. So he decided to come forward, and now

0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:32.399
<v Speaker 2>he wants to cooperate. So now we've got to move

0:40:32.480 --> 0:40:36.640
<v Speaker 2>him and his family. So now we have five people

0:40:36.719 --> 0:40:40.359
<v Speaker 2>total in in the door, this spiral effect of cooperation

0:40:40.480 --> 0:40:45.000
<v Speaker 2>that Anthony has created for us. Then a month later

0:40:45.440 --> 0:40:47.400
<v Speaker 2>we have a guy who was arrested in December of

0:40:47.440 --> 0:40:51.080
<v Speaker 2>nineteen ninety nine. His name is Thomas Detrah, who is

0:40:51.280 --> 0:40:54.040
<v Speaker 2>a mountain of a man. He sees that everyone is

0:40:54.120 --> 0:40:58.160
<v Speaker 2>cooperating and he wants to cooperate. He's out on bail.

0:40:58.560 --> 0:41:00.840
<v Speaker 2>Remember I told you one of the two that started

0:41:00.880 --> 0:41:03.239
<v Speaker 2>us was Joseph Connigliero, the guy in the wheelchair that

0:41:03.280 --> 0:41:06.600
<v Speaker 2>got killed. Well, he is part of the conspiracy to

0:41:06.680 --> 0:41:09.760
<v Speaker 2>murder him, and he's trying to get out in front

0:41:09.800 --> 0:41:13.400
<v Speaker 2>that he wants to cooperate because he's out on bail.

0:41:13.960 --> 0:41:17.640
<v Speaker 2>We decide let's get him to make a consensual recording.

0:41:18.000 --> 0:41:21.560
<v Speaker 2>What we do is we get everyone that's involved in

0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:25.720
<v Speaker 2>the murder to kill Joseph Connigliero together, and Tommy Detore

0:41:25.920 --> 0:41:29.440
<v Speaker 2>is going to record them. It's probably the best recording

0:41:29.600 --> 0:41:32.560
<v Speaker 2>the FBI has, or one of the best, where he

0:41:32.600 --> 0:41:36.040
<v Speaker 2>gets everyone together and they talk about their role in

0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:38.759
<v Speaker 2>the murder. Now, as I said, Joseph Conigliero was in

0:41:38.800 --> 0:41:41.480
<v Speaker 2>a wheelchair. He had his car rigged where he could

0:41:41.520 --> 0:41:44.120
<v Speaker 2>actually drive it. So the shooter was a guy named

0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:48.520
<v Speaker 2>Martin Lewis. Martin Lewis is on tape saying I shot

0:41:48.600 --> 0:41:51.719
<v Speaker 2>him six times. I got out of the car and

0:41:51.880 --> 0:41:57.360
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Connigliero pulled away, drove up the street, got to

0:41:57.440 --> 0:42:01.160
<v Speaker 2>a stop sign and put his blinker on and drove

0:42:01.239 --> 0:42:04.360
<v Speaker 2>himself to the hospital. This is all on tape. Now

0:42:04.600 --> 0:42:08.280
<v Speaker 2>there's another guy named Joseph Brightson. Joseph Brightson was another

0:42:08.440 --> 0:42:10.920
<v Speaker 2>mountain of a man. They used to call Brightson and

0:42:11.000 --> 0:42:13.560
<v Speaker 2>Timy Detora at the Twin Towers because they were so big.

0:42:13.960 --> 0:42:19.600
<v Speaker 2>So Joseph Conigileero stops at Joseph Brightson's house and beeps

0:42:19.640 --> 0:42:23.319
<v Speaker 2>the horn. Joseph Brightson thinks that Joseph Canigileero is dead.

0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:26.480
<v Speaker 2>Can you imagine the look on his face when Joseph

0:42:26.480 --> 0:42:29.680
<v Speaker 2>Connegileero beeps the horn for Joseph Brison to come downstairs.

0:42:30.040 --> 0:42:33.399
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Brison comes downstairs, jumps in the car and goes

0:42:33.440 --> 0:42:37.160
<v Speaker 2>to the hospital with him, and then Joseph Conagilero dies

0:42:37.200 --> 0:42:41.360
<v Speaker 2>at the hospital. When he's at the hospital, Joseph Brightson

0:42:41.400 --> 0:42:47.160
<v Speaker 2>calls his cousin who's an NYPD detective, and unfortunately the

0:42:47.239 --> 0:42:52.200
<v Speaker 2>detective goes through the car and removes all the case shells,

0:42:53.000 --> 0:42:55.200
<v Speaker 2>so now he's in the case. And again also this

0:42:55.360 --> 0:42:57.680
<v Speaker 2>is all on tape. It's probably one of the best

0:42:57.719 --> 0:43:00.319
<v Speaker 2>tapes ever. And for trial, all you have to do

0:43:00.400 --> 0:43:01.080
<v Speaker 2>is press play.

0:43:01.400 --> 0:43:03.040
<v Speaker 1>What do you do with a cop who does that

0:43:03.239 --> 0:43:05.920
<v Speaker 1>in prison? I mean, but police officers in prison already

0:43:05.920 --> 0:43:07.759
<v Speaker 1>will have a hard time. Does he have to go

0:43:07.800 --> 0:43:08.760
<v Speaker 1>in a special facility?

0:43:08.800 --> 0:43:12.080
<v Speaker 2>Also, oh, he doesn't go in a special facility. And

0:43:12.120 --> 0:43:15.080
<v Speaker 2>he wasn't a very tall man. He ended up. You know,

0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:17.439
<v Speaker 2>we can talk about the trials when we get there.

0:43:17.520 --> 0:43:20.480
<v Speaker 2>But he ended up going to trial, he got convicted,

0:43:20.640 --> 0:43:23.799
<v Speaker 2>and he got sentenced to thirteen years horrible and I'm

0:43:23.840 --> 0:43:26.759
<v Speaker 2>sure his time was hard, you know what I mean. Yeah,

0:43:26.840 --> 0:43:30.719
<v Speaker 2>So we have this tape and then we do more

0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:34.799
<v Speaker 2>arrest and then we actually have another arrest related to

0:43:34.840 --> 0:43:39.600
<v Speaker 2>the leak. So we couldn't arrest the alleged court reporter

0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:43.480
<v Speaker 2>because we couldn't get any direct evidence that it was

0:43:43.520 --> 0:43:47.040
<v Speaker 2>the person was supplying the information. We could only get

0:43:47.080 --> 0:43:50.680
<v Speaker 2>the evidence who got the information. So we ended up

0:43:50.800 --> 0:43:55.120
<v Speaker 2>arresting a Genevie's captain named Fritzy Giabnelli. So we arrested

0:43:55.160 --> 0:43:57.480
<v Speaker 2>him in August of two thousand and one, and that

0:43:57.560 --> 0:43:59.759
<v Speaker 2>was right before nine to eleven. That the book talks

0:43:59.800 --> 0:44:03.360
<v Speaker 2>about my experiences through thro nine to eleven, which is

0:44:03.400 --> 0:44:07.400
<v Speaker 2>some crazy times there. And then after nine to eleven,

0:44:07.960 --> 0:44:11.960
<v Speaker 2>our investigations go silent for about four or five months

0:44:11.960 --> 0:44:16.640
<v Speaker 2>where we have to divert all our resources to counter

0:44:17.200 --> 0:44:20.359
<v Speaker 2>terrorism at that particular time, and then we slowly get

0:44:20.400 --> 0:44:22.520
<v Speaker 2>back to working organized crime, and we get back to

0:44:22.520 --> 0:44:26.759
<v Speaker 2>working organized crime. Then I start the trials. And what's

0:44:26.760 --> 0:44:29.600
<v Speaker 2>different between the state and the federal is when you're

0:44:29.640 --> 0:44:32.719
<v Speaker 2>in federal the agents actually sit at the trial, so

0:44:32.760 --> 0:44:36.920
<v Speaker 2>you're working hand in hand with the prosecutors. And trial

0:44:37.040 --> 0:44:39.640
<v Speaker 2>is the best experience because that's where you learn. You

0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.000
<v Speaker 2>learn all the mistakes that you made, but it's the

0:44:42.040 --> 0:44:45.240
<v Speaker 2>best experience. And it's twenty four to seven. You're prepping

0:44:45.239 --> 0:44:47.759
<v Speaker 2>for trial. You have trial during the day, then at

0:44:47.840 --> 0:44:51.040
<v Speaker 2>night you're going to work with the witness. It's constant.

0:44:51.239 --> 0:44:54.320
<v Speaker 2>And I was basically on trial from December two thousand

0:44:54.360 --> 0:44:57.680
<v Speaker 2>and two up until November two thousand and three, where

0:44:57.719 --> 0:45:00.840
<v Speaker 2>I think during that time period for trial, so it

0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:03.560
<v Speaker 2>was just a year of no life whatsoever.

0:45:04.040 --> 0:45:06.640
<v Speaker 1>Do you have a lot of fears during this time period.

0:45:06.840 --> 0:45:09.560
<v Speaker 1>I mean you're hearing that you know there are contracts

0:45:09.600 --> 0:45:12.720
<v Speaker 1>out to hurt law enforcement. You must have been scared

0:45:12.760 --> 0:45:13.279
<v Speaker 1>at some point.

0:45:13.680 --> 0:45:16.439
<v Speaker 2>Well, you know you're used to threats, right, that's part

0:45:16.480 --> 0:45:18.640
<v Speaker 2>of the job. But yes, it's like when we first

0:45:18.760 --> 0:45:20.600
<v Speaker 2>heard that there was a contract out on our head

0:45:20.640 --> 0:45:23.080
<v Speaker 2>on law enforcement. Of course I'm concerned because I was

0:45:23.120 --> 0:45:26.319
<v Speaker 2>the handler for Anthony Kapolm. I'm the one that flipped them,

0:45:26.400 --> 0:45:29.319
<v Speaker 2>so of course I'm concerned. As years went by, it's

0:45:29.320 --> 0:45:31.920
<v Speaker 2>like I ended up working them all for fifteen years.

0:45:32.280 --> 0:45:35.200
<v Speaker 2>There's actually a consensual recordings of them talking about me,

0:45:35.320 --> 0:45:37.720
<v Speaker 2>that I'm a decent guy, that I know what I'm doing,

0:45:37.960 --> 0:45:40.759
<v Speaker 2>and that I've always treated people with respect. You know,

0:45:40.880 --> 0:45:43.040
<v Speaker 2>if I had you, I had you, even if I

0:45:43.080 --> 0:45:45.759
<v Speaker 2>had you, but we didn't have it on tape. I

0:45:46.440 --> 0:45:48.840
<v Speaker 2>didn't have you then. But I've always treated them with respect,

0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:51.880
<v Speaker 2>and I think they actually saw that. So do I

0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:54.000
<v Speaker 2>fear for my life now now, you know. But back then,

0:45:54.040 --> 0:45:56.600
<v Speaker 2>when it first happened, here was a little concerned because

0:45:56.600 --> 0:45:59.040
<v Speaker 2>it's a jolt, you know what I mean. But you know,

0:45:59.200 --> 0:46:00.919
<v Speaker 2>because I worked them for so long, I think there's

0:46:00.920 --> 0:46:03.399
<v Speaker 2>a level of respect. And as I said, after this case,

0:46:03.440 --> 0:46:05.960
<v Speaker 2>I went on to work the Bananas and also the Columbos.

0:46:06.440 --> 0:46:10.239
<v Speaker 1>Can you use Anthony Capo as an example of how

0:46:10.320 --> 0:46:12.520
<v Speaker 1>you can look at someone who has done so many

0:46:12.600 --> 0:46:16.520
<v Speaker 1>awful things and somehow it doesn't sound like you were

0:46:16.560 --> 0:46:18.520
<v Speaker 1>acting when you were talking to him. I mean, I've

0:46:18.520 --> 0:46:22.000
<v Speaker 1>read that you guys had some pretty personal exchanges, and

0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:23.919
<v Speaker 1>I'm interested in a little bit about what he told

0:46:23.960 --> 0:46:27.160
<v Speaker 1>you about his life. And then, of course you know

0:46:27.320 --> 0:46:30.319
<v Speaker 1>how your PABs could have been parallel, but they very

0:46:30.360 --> 0:46:33.520
<v Speaker 1>clearly split off. So how do you humanize somebody like that?

0:46:34.719 --> 0:46:37.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, one thing that I learned is you kind of

0:46:37.600 --> 0:46:41.799
<v Speaker 2>become a social worker a b. It's not up for

0:46:41.880 --> 0:46:44.880
<v Speaker 2>me to judge. I mean, it's like they'll be judged

0:46:44.880 --> 0:46:48.480
<v Speaker 2>by a higher power. And you know, it's a job.

0:46:48.520 --> 0:46:51.560
<v Speaker 2>I've heard horrible things, not just from Anthony, but for

0:46:51.760 --> 0:46:54.279
<v Speaker 2>all the witnesses that I've heard, and you know, you

0:46:54.280 --> 0:46:56.640
<v Speaker 2>don't know how they were raised. Right, Again, it's not

0:46:56.719 --> 0:46:58.560
<v Speaker 2>up for me to judge. And I think that's the

0:46:58.600 --> 0:47:01.719
<v Speaker 2>biggest thing. And it's a job that I have to do.

0:47:02.000 --> 0:47:04.440
<v Speaker 2>Right that The whole thing is this is a job,

0:47:04.680 --> 0:47:07.000
<v Speaker 2>so and I have to get the job done. So

0:47:07.440 --> 0:47:09.480
<v Speaker 2>And one thing that I've always said too is a

0:47:09.520 --> 0:47:12.719
<v Speaker 2>happy witness is a good witness. And you'd be surprised

0:47:12.800 --> 0:47:17.120
<v Speaker 2>if you can make people feel comfortable and relaxed. They're

0:47:17.120 --> 0:47:19.680
<v Speaker 2>more apt to tell you things if you as opposed

0:47:19.719 --> 0:47:22.319
<v Speaker 2>to making them feel uptight or anxious.

0:47:22.600 --> 0:47:25.359
<v Speaker 1>Did he have regrets? Which, if he does, I have

0:47:25.440 --> 0:47:28.400
<v Speaker 1>to think at least partially central on what he's putting

0:47:28.440 --> 0:47:29.759
<v Speaker 1>his wife and his kids through.

0:47:30.239 --> 0:47:33.000
<v Speaker 2>There is a murder I think I mentioned before. There's

0:47:33.040 --> 0:47:35.399
<v Speaker 2>the murderer of Fred Weiss. That's the gentleman that god

0:47:35.440 --> 0:47:39.760
<v Speaker 2>he wanted killed. So after that murder, his best friend

0:47:40.000 --> 0:47:44.239
<v Speaker 2>Joseph Garafano was part of that murder as well. Joseph Garafano.

0:47:44.320 --> 0:47:46.960
<v Speaker 2>After that murder, sorry to say, because there was a

0:47:46.960 --> 0:47:50.280
<v Speaker 2>lot of heat because they kind of botched that murder.

0:47:50.440 --> 0:47:53.319
<v Speaker 2>What Joey did was and I can't, for the life

0:47:53.360 --> 0:47:56.400
<v Speaker 2>of me think about why he did this, but Joey's

0:47:56.560 --> 0:48:00.440
<v Speaker 2>job was to steal plates from a car put it

0:48:00.480 --> 0:48:04.200
<v Speaker 2>on a stolen car. For some reason, he took plates

0:48:04.200 --> 0:48:07.640
<v Speaker 2>from Anthony Capo's wife's car. Very lazy thing to do,

0:48:07.680 --> 0:48:10.840
<v Speaker 2>a very stupid thing to do. So after that murder,

0:48:10.960 --> 0:48:13.319
<v Speaker 2>there was a partial tag that was seen at the

0:48:13.360 --> 0:48:15.480
<v Speaker 2>crime scene. What they did is they killed him as

0:48:15.520 --> 0:48:17.640
<v Speaker 2>soon they killed Fred Weiss as soon as he exited

0:48:17.840 --> 0:48:22.000
<v Speaker 2>his apartment building, and Joey started talking saying, I'm not

0:48:22.080 --> 0:48:25.040
<v Speaker 2>going to go down for this now, Anthony. He said

0:48:25.040 --> 0:48:28.520
<v Speaker 2>this to Anthony, and Anthony made the mistake of telling

0:48:28.560 --> 0:48:32.799
<v Speaker 2>his captain, Anthony Rotundo this. So in essence, Anthony got

0:48:32.800 --> 0:48:35.799
<v Speaker 2>his best friend killed because they killed him. And that's

0:48:35.840 --> 0:48:39.839
<v Speaker 2>something that haunted Anthony years later, and it took him

0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:42.880
<v Speaker 2>probably two years for him to admit that to me,

0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:44.960
<v Speaker 2>because I spent a lot of time with him, and

0:48:45.040 --> 0:48:48.120
<v Speaker 2>it took him about two years to actually admit that

0:48:48.360 --> 0:48:50.239
<v Speaker 2>he got his friend killed. And he used to tell

0:48:50.239 --> 0:48:52.720
<v Speaker 2>me that he would have nightmares about it. That's something

0:48:52.760 --> 0:48:54.560
<v Speaker 2>that hit him pretty hard.

0:48:54.920 --> 0:48:56.840
<v Speaker 1>What about his wife and kids? I mean, I know

0:48:56.920 --> 0:48:59.960
<v Speaker 1>what happens. He moves to a different facility to keep himself.

0:49:00.400 --> 0:49:03.000
<v Speaker 1>Do they go into witness security also? I mean the

0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:05.200
<v Speaker 1>impact on them must have been tremendous.

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:08.040
<v Speaker 2>Well, when the threat happened, you know, I had to

0:49:08.080 --> 0:49:10.920
<v Speaker 2>go up there and tell Anthony that, and that was

0:49:10.960 --> 0:49:12.840
<v Speaker 2>a very difficult thing to do because you had to

0:49:12.840 --> 0:49:16.799
<v Speaker 2>put yourself in hissues. He's defenseless, so he's looking to

0:49:16.840 --> 0:49:18.840
<v Speaker 2>me to protect his family. I was put in a

0:49:18.920 --> 0:49:22.960
<v Speaker 2>very tough spot because his wife refused to move. So

0:49:23.040 --> 0:49:24.759
<v Speaker 2>it's kind of hard for me to protect her when

0:49:24.760 --> 0:49:25.880
<v Speaker 2>she's refusing.

0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:27.440
<v Speaker 1>To move and she's in Staten Island? Is that right?

0:49:27.680 --> 0:49:30.880
<v Speaker 2>Stetton Island. Now, they were having problems and they ultimately

0:49:30.880 --> 0:49:34.479
<v Speaker 2>got divorced. Still, I'm concerned about her safety, but there's

0:49:34.480 --> 0:49:36.839
<v Speaker 2>only so much I can possibly do. So we went

0:49:36.960 --> 0:49:39.239
<v Speaker 2>we spoke to her, you know, try to get her

0:49:39.239 --> 0:49:41.319
<v Speaker 2>to go into the program. She refused to do that.

0:49:41.640 --> 0:49:46.520
<v Speaker 2>Offered her money to relocate. Initially she said no. Then finally,

0:49:46.800 --> 0:49:50.520
<v Speaker 2>you know, after urging her over and over again to relocate,

0:49:51.040 --> 0:49:55.240
<v Speaker 2>she relocated. But she relocated from one endo Staten Island

0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:58.880
<v Speaker 2>to the next, which really is not a relocation, but

0:49:59.000 --> 0:50:02.000
<v Speaker 2>she did. But yeah, it made my life very hard

0:50:02.080 --> 0:50:06.080
<v Speaker 2>because she wouldn't relocate. Thankfully, nothing ever happened, but you know,

0:50:06.160 --> 0:50:08.600
<v Speaker 2>it was very scary, and I felt bad for Anthony

0:50:08.600 --> 0:50:11.840
<v Speaker 2>because he was defenseless. Even though they were having problems,

0:50:11.840 --> 0:50:15.640
<v Speaker 2>He's still concerned about her and her kids. And thankfully

0:50:15.880 --> 0:50:18.600
<v Speaker 2>nothing ever happened. Is like, the main thing is.

0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:22.440
<v Speaker 1>There anyway some of the members of these families, the

0:50:22.480 --> 0:50:27.000
<v Speaker 1>actual families, biological families or whatever, don't know what their

0:50:27.200 --> 0:50:30.000
<v Speaker 1>husbands and fathers and grandfathers are doing for a living.

0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:34.160
<v Speaker 2>Yes, really, I've had that a couple of times. When

0:50:34.160 --> 0:50:38.160
<v Speaker 2>I worked the Columbos, we had a proactive witness and

0:50:38.560 --> 0:50:41.120
<v Speaker 2>we had to abruptly take him off the street. He

0:50:41.160 --> 0:50:44.480
<v Speaker 2>made tapes for us for quite some time, and an

0:50:44.480 --> 0:50:48.640
<v Speaker 2>event happened where he was the guy who actually intervened

0:50:48.640 --> 0:50:50.920
<v Speaker 2>where someone was going to get killed. They were going

0:50:50.960 --> 0:50:53.919
<v Speaker 2>to kill these two kids, and the mob guys had

0:50:53.920 --> 0:50:56.200
<v Speaker 2>guns in their mouths and they were going to kill them,

0:50:56.239 --> 0:50:58.200
<v Speaker 2>and he happened to be there with a recording device

0:50:58.560 --> 0:51:01.120
<v Speaker 2>and he was a decent sized guy, and he stepped

0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:03.160
<v Speaker 2>in and he kind of beat the crap out of

0:51:03.160 --> 0:51:06.279
<v Speaker 2>the two kids. Saved their lives, really, but as a

0:51:06.280 --> 0:51:08.040
<v Speaker 2>result of that, we had to shut down the case,

0:51:08.719 --> 0:51:11.520
<v Speaker 2>and he owned the night club, and we had to

0:51:11.680 --> 0:51:13.279
<v Speaker 2>break the news to him. He didn't even know. We

0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:14.960
<v Speaker 2>went to the nightclub at like four o'clock in the

0:51:15.000 --> 0:51:18.120
<v Speaker 2>morning and said, Okay, it's over. We have to shut

0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:20.880
<v Speaker 2>this down. And he had never told his wife anything.

0:51:21.600 --> 0:51:24.520
<v Speaker 2>So just imagine four or five o'clock in the morning

0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:27.560
<v Speaker 2>going back to his house with him and us telling

0:51:27.760 --> 0:51:31.719
<v Speaker 2>her a pack your bags, we're moving right now, and

0:51:31.760 --> 0:51:34.719
<v Speaker 2>her just being totally shocked at the whole thing. It

0:51:34.760 --> 0:51:37.759
<v Speaker 2>has happened before. At the end of the day, I

0:51:37.800 --> 0:51:42.960
<v Speaker 2>think we convicted seventy one people, eleven murders were solved,

0:51:43.520 --> 0:51:47.760
<v Speaker 2>seven trials. And what's interesting is, as I said, during

0:51:47.840 --> 0:51:52.960
<v Speaker 2>this short, little time period, we had seven people that cooperated,

0:51:53.320 --> 0:52:00.520
<v Speaker 2>ranging from associate soldier, captain, acting boss. And since that

0:52:00.600 --> 0:52:03.799
<v Speaker 2>time period, no one else has cooperated. No other made

0:52:03.880 --> 0:52:06.320
<v Speaker 2>member and that family has cooperated. So we're at twenty

0:52:06.360 --> 0:52:10.440
<v Speaker 2>five years plus since that happened, and for trial purposes,

0:52:10.520 --> 0:52:13.840
<v Speaker 2>it was great in the sense is at that particular

0:52:13.880 --> 0:52:16.440
<v Speaker 2>point in time, it was the first time that we

0:52:16.440 --> 0:52:19.400
<v Speaker 2>were able to put a structure of a family to

0:52:19.520 --> 0:52:23.000
<v Speaker 2>testify against their own family. Whereas I said, we could

0:52:23.000 --> 0:52:26.439
<v Speaker 2>put an associate, a soldier, a captain, and boss up

0:52:26.520 --> 0:52:29.920
<v Speaker 2>from the same family testifying and against their family. And

0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:31.880
<v Speaker 2>people come to me and they say, why did you

0:52:31.920 --> 0:52:35.120
<v Speaker 2>write the book? And you know, there's a couple of reasons.

0:52:35.360 --> 0:52:37.239
<v Speaker 2>First of all, I was approached and I was very

0:52:37.280 --> 0:52:39.320
<v Speaker 2>blessed to have a great career. When I tell people

0:52:39.360 --> 0:52:42.440
<v Speaker 2>all the time, it's not just me, it's when you

0:52:42.480 --> 0:52:45.319
<v Speaker 2>work organized crime, it's always a team. It's always a

0:52:45.320 --> 0:52:49.600
<v Speaker 2>team of people. So I've had great partners, mentors, supervisors,

0:52:49.640 --> 0:52:52.880
<v Speaker 2>and just great squads. And when they approached me and

0:52:52.880 --> 0:52:55.080
<v Speaker 2>they heard my story, they were like, this is not

0:52:55.200 --> 0:52:57.480
<v Speaker 2>one book. This is two books. So this is just

0:52:57.520 --> 0:52:59.080
<v Speaker 2>the first part of my career. We'll see if I

0:52:59.080 --> 0:53:02.120
<v Speaker 2>have the energy to write a second one. The thing is,

0:53:02.800 --> 0:53:06.319
<v Speaker 2>as I mentioned before, this squad CEE ten we got

0:53:06.400 --> 0:53:09.880
<v Speaker 2>tremendous press because we basically dismantled two families at the

0:53:09.920 --> 0:53:13.920
<v Speaker 2>same time, the Banano family plus the Dicalbalcanti family. They

0:53:13.920 --> 0:53:17.680
<v Speaker 2>were such a young group of selfless agents that just

0:53:17.800 --> 0:53:21.480
<v Speaker 2>had each other's back. We got tremendous press. The press

0:53:21.600 --> 0:53:23.800
<v Speaker 2>never put it together that it was the same squad.

0:53:24.600 --> 0:53:26.720
<v Speaker 2>It was so funny where we were in the paper

0:53:26.840 --> 0:53:29.960
<v Speaker 2>daily from two sides of the fence, and they just

0:53:30.080 --> 0:53:31.960
<v Speaker 2>never put it together. So this is one way to

0:53:32.000 --> 0:53:35.000
<v Speaker 2>get that out there. And then lastly, I don't know

0:53:35.080 --> 0:53:38.719
<v Speaker 2>the relationship that Anthony had with his kids, and I

0:53:38.800 --> 0:53:41.359
<v Speaker 2>just hope that by reading this book they see all

0:53:41.440 --> 0:53:45.120
<v Speaker 2>the good that he did. Anthony testified for me seven times.

0:53:45.840 --> 0:53:49.960
<v Speaker 2>He actually became like a professional witness where he enjoyed this.

0:53:50.800 --> 0:53:53.200
<v Speaker 2>He loved the banter and he was good at it.

0:53:53.320 --> 0:53:56.040
<v Speaker 2>And for someone that prior to being locked up, he

0:53:56.120 --> 0:53:58.080
<v Speaker 2>never worked really a day in his life, he was

0:53:58.120 --> 0:54:00.920
<v Speaker 2>always trying to scam. When he went into the witness

0:54:00.960 --> 0:54:03.040
<v Speaker 2>security program, he used to always say he wanted to

0:54:03.040 --> 0:54:05.480
<v Speaker 2>be a success story for me, and I would tell him,

0:54:05.480 --> 0:54:07.520
<v Speaker 2>don't be a Suxcis story for me, be a success

0:54:07.520 --> 0:54:10.799
<v Speaker 2>story for yourself. He worked hard and he really did

0:54:10.880 --> 0:54:13.719
<v Speaker 2>change his life around and he tried to make the

0:54:13.719 --> 0:54:18.040
<v Speaker 2>best of that second chance. So hopefully his kids, you know,

0:54:18.680 --> 0:54:21.279
<v Speaker 2>years later now, can actually see that he did do

0:54:21.440 --> 0:54:24.920
<v Speaker 2>some good. Yes, he did heinous acts and I do

0:54:25.040 --> 0:54:27.520
<v Speaker 2>not condone those at all, and I feel horrible for

0:54:27.600 --> 0:54:30.839
<v Speaker 2>the victims. But he did turn his life around and

0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:31.960
<v Speaker 2>he did do some good.

0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:35.279
<v Speaker 1>Well, tell me, aside from testifying for you so much

0:54:35.280 --> 0:54:37.200
<v Speaker 1>and giving you a lot of information, tell me the

0:54:37.200 --> 0:54:40.040
<v Speaker 1>way the rest of his life goes. Once the dust

0:54:40.080 --> 0:54:43.719
<v Speaker 1>is settled and you have the seventy one convictions, is

0:54:43.719 --> 0:54:46.319
<v Speaker 1>that what it was? Yeah, once you have these convictions

0:54:46.360 --> 0:54:50.240
<v Speaker 1>and then you're moving on to the Columbo and wherever else?

0:54:50.520 --> 0:54:51.640
<v Speaker 1>What happens with Anthony?

0:54:51.800 --> 0:54:55.600
<v Speaker 2>All right? So basically Anthony does get bail. He did

0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:59.080
<v Speaker 2>about four years in jail, and people are always of

0:54:59.160 --> 0:55:01.840
<v Speaker 2>this mindset that they go into the witness security program.

0:55:02.080 --> 0:55:05.840
<v Speaker 2>There are jails throughout the United States. There are roughly

0:55:05.920 --> 0:55:09.400
<v Speaker 2>seven jails. I can't say where they are, but people

0:55:09.480 --> 0:55:13.280
<v Speaker 2>go to jail first. So Anthony actually went to jail

0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:15.880
<v Speaker 2>for four years and then he got bail, and then

0:55:15.920 --> 0:55:19.359
<v Speaker 2>he went into the witness Security program. That's called Phase two.

0:55:19.840 --> 0:55:22.160
<v Speaker 2>Phase two of the Winness Security program. As I said before,

0:55:22.160 --> 0:55:25.160
<v Speaker 2>it's run by the US Marshall Service. That's when you

0:55:25.200 --> 0:55:29.080
<v Speaker 2>get your fake ID, like your licensed Social Security number passport.

0:55:29.440 --> 0:55:31.719
<v Speaker 2>And he went in there and he became a car salesman.

0:55:32.080 --> 0:55:35.080
<v Speaker 2>I used to always joke that he could sell steamshit

0:55:35.200 --> 0:55:38.399
<v Speaker 2>to a blind man because he had because he had

0:55:38.440 --> 0:55:41.640
<v Speaker 2>the gift of the gap. So he did really well there.

0:55:41.800 --> 0:55:43.879
<v Speaker 2>But he did have some health issues. You know, he

0:55:43.960 --> 0:55:46.440
<v Speaker 2>was a bad diabetic, and you know, I think he

0:55:46.520 --> 0:55:50.719
<v Speaker 2>lost some toes throughout his life there. But he did

0:55:50.760 --> 0:55:52.680
<v Speaker 2>try to make the best of his second life.

0:55:52.840 --> 0:55:54.960
<v Speaker 1>Okay. Now he ended up dying.

0:55:54.880 --> 0:55:55.879
<v Speaker 2>A couple of years ago.

0:55:55.960 --> 0:55:56.680
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, hey did it?

0:55:56.760 --> 0:55:57.040
<v Speaker 2>Okay?

0:55:57.600 --> 0:56:00.160
<v Speaker 1>Now, is there anybody else of note that had an

0:56:00.200 --> 0:56:04.600
<v Speaker 1>interesting time once they either testified or took complete deal

0:56:04.680 --> 0:56:05.360
<v Speaker 1>or whatever it was.

0:56:05.680 --> 0:56:08.920
<v Speaker 2>There was another witness, Anthony Rotundo. Anthon Rotundo testified me

0:56:09.080 --> 0:56:13.280
<v Speaker 2>for seven times as well. Anthony Rotundo actually went to college.

0:56:13.320 --> 0:56:16.880
<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't rephrase that he graduated college. Anyone can go

0:56:17.120 --> 0:56:19.600
<v Speaker 2>and can go to college. He actually, yeah, had to

0:56:19.640 --> 0:56:22.880
<v Speaker 2>graduate college, and so he was a great witness for

0:56:22.960 --> 0:56:25.319
<v Speaker 2>us as well. It's funny. What I try to do

0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:27.880
<v Speaker 2>with the book is I tried to reach out to

0:56:27.920 --> 0:56:30.000
<v Speaker 2>all the witnesses ahead of time to let them know.

0:56:30.840 --> 0:56:33.279
<v Speaker 2>And Frank Scarabino, the one who had the contract to

0:56:33.360 --> 0:56:35.840
<v Speaker 2>kill Kapito and his family and also basically to kill me,

0:56:36.840 --> 0:56:39.279
<v Speaker 2>I couldn't get a hold of him, and sure enough,

0:56:39.360 --> 0:56:43.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm not on any type of Instagram and things like that,

0:56:43.640 --> 0:56:46.440
<v Speaker 2>but he contacted me through LinkedIn.

0:56:47.760 --> 0:56:49.360
<v Speaker 1>Did that to scare the shit out of you? That

0:56:49.360 --> 0:56:50.480
<v Speaker 1>would have scared me to death.

0:56:51.480 --> 0:56:53.799
<v Speaker 2>So we were able to connect through LinkedIn with his

0:56:53.840 --> 0:56:57.120
<v Speaker 2>new name, and you know, he was already supportive of

0:56:57.160 --> 0:56:58.640
<v Speaker 2>like the book, and I told him, I said, I

0:56:58.680 --> 0:57:00.400
<v Speaker 2>tried to reach out to you the old that I

0:57:00.440 --> 0:57:02.920
<v Speaker 2>had for you. So it's it's nice to reconnect with

0:57:03.000 --> 0:57:05.919
<v Speaker 2>him again. But he but he's doing well too. He's

0:57:06.040 --> 0:57:08.719
<v Speaker 2>made the most of his second life. And as we

0:57:08.840 --> 0:57:12.440
<v Speaker 2>talked about before, his wife knew nothing at all about

0:57:12.440 --> 0:57:18.240
<v Speaker 2>his about his life too. Benny actually moved down to Texas,

0:57:18.280 --> 0:57:22.720
<v Speaker 2>I believe, and there was a reporter who went down

0:57:23.120 --> 0:57:25.480
<v Speaker 2>there and basically knocked on his front door, and I

0:57:25.480 --> 0:57:28.680
<v Speaker 2>think it was in the paper. So Benny really didn't

0:57:28.760 --> 0:57:31.320
<v Speaker 2>change like his ways. He I think went right back

0:57:31.320 --> 0:57:33.160
<v Speaker 2>into the same type of business that he had before.

0:57:33.320 --> 0:57:36.240
<v Speaker 1>You've spent so much time reading about these guys, interviewing

0:57:36.280 --> 0:57:39.000
<v Speaker 1>these guys, knowing about the crimes. Has there been any

0:57:39.080 --> 0:57:44.280
<v Speaker 1>kind of an evolution between when you started working these

0:57:44.400 --> 0:57:49.040
<v Speaker 1>mafia mob cases until now? Have they, you know, diversified

0:57:49.200 --> 0:57:51.520
<v Speaker 1>or is this Do they have the same control on

0:57:51.680 --> 0:57:53.840
<v Speaker 1>in New Jersey and New York that they once had?

0:57:53.960 --> 0:57:55.080
<v Speaker 1>Is a structure any different?

0:57:55.360 --> 0:57:59.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, I think from a cooperation standpoint, I think Anthony

0:57:59.600 --> 0:58:02.400
<v Speaker 2>opened up the floodgates. I'll start there in the sense

0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:05.440
<v Speaker 2>is you know, if you look at the history of

0:58:05.600 --> 0:58:09.800
<v Speaker 2>cooperation you had Sammy the Bull started in nineteen ninety one,

0:58:10.040 --> 0:58:12.480
<v Speaker 2>Al Di Orco was behind him, and from ninety two

0:58:12.560 --> 0:58:14.680
<v Speaker 2>to ninety nine there was really no there was no

0:58:14.760 --> 0:58:18.440
<v Speaker 2>one that had tried to cooperate. Anthony started that and

0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:22.400
<v Speaker 2>then after that, you know, between the Bananas and the DeCavalcantes,

0:58:22.440 --> 0:58:25.360
<v Speaker 2>it just became the floodgates. Then after I was finished

0:58:25.400 --> 0:58:28.120
<v Speaker 2>this case, I went down to the Columbo squad and

0:58:28.160 --> 0:58:31.200
<v Speaker 2>we were extremely successful there. You know, I think the

0:58:31.280 --> 0:58:34.280
<v Speaker 2>highlights of that was in January of twenty eleven, I

0:58:34.320 --> 0:58:37.600
<v Speaker 2>spearheaded the largest FBI arrest ever against the mob, where

0:58:37.640 --> 0:58:39.920
<v Speaker 2>we arrested one hundred and twenty seven people, and then

0:58:40.560 --> 0:58:43.280
<v Speaker 2>I ended my career as a supervisor where we had

0:58:43.520 --> 0:58:46.160
<v Speaker 2>a dig related to the Good to the Goodfellow's movie

0:58:46.480 --> 0:58:50.760
<v Speaker 2>in June of twenty thirteen. So I think cooperation has

0:58:50.760 --> 0:58:54.560
<v Speaker 2>started to become the norm. Related to your question on rackets,

0:58:54.600 --> 0:58:58.360
<v Speaker 2>though you know even recently you've had arrest, the Mob

0:58:58.360 --> 0:59:00.560
<v Speaker 2>has been around for one hundred and twenty five years.

0:59:00.680 --> 0:59:03.480
<v Speaker 2>They're not going to go away. It's like they hated

0:59:03.520 --> 0:59:06.760
<v Speaker 2>Gotty because Gotti was so flashy. They're supposed to be

0:59:06.840 --> 0:59:11.560
<v Speaker 2>under the radar. So the rackets of sports betting and

0:59:11.600 --> 0:59:14.320
<v Speaker 2>trying to gamble, they're going to be around forever. The

0:59:14.440 --> 0:59:17.920
<v Speaker 2>extortions of unions, that's going to be around, it's always

0:59:17.960 --> 0:59:21.000
<v Speaker 2>going to be around. You know. What they're starting to

0:59:21.040 --> 0:59:24.160
<v Speaker 2>get into is technology though, right, that's what and also

0:59:24.240 --> 0:59:26.960
<v Speaker 2>the crypto, So these are things you have to watch for, right,

0:59:27.000 --> 0:59:29.560
<v Speaker 2>But they're going to evolve. There's a lot of smart

0:59:29.600 --> 0:59:31.920
<v Speaker 2>people that work in the MOB, right, so they're always

0:59:31.920 --> 0:59:34.800
<v Speaker 2>going to try to adapt, and that's what the Bureau

0:59:34.880 --> 0:59:37.240
<v Speaker 2>always has to keep the resources on them because if

0:59:37.240 --> 0:59:39.600
<v Speaker 2>they don't keep their eye on them, they're going to rebuild.

0:59:39.960 --> 0:59:41.920
<v Speaker 2>It's like the Bureau has done a great job the

0:59:41.960 --> 0:59:45.920
<v Speaker 2>last twenty years of really trying to decimate them. But

0:59:46.240 --> 0:59:48.920
<v Speaker 2>the mob is always going to rebuild. They've been around forever.

0:59:49.080 --> 0:59:52.080
<v Speaker 1>Are there still four or five main families or are

0:59:52.120 --> 0:59:53.200
<v Speaker 1>there more factions than that?

0:59:53.760 --> 0:59:56.640
<v Speaker 2>Yes, there's still the five main families in New York.

0:59:56.800 --> 0:59:59.920
<v Speaker 2>You still have the Jersey family. You know, they're not

1:00:00.080 --> 1:00:02.640
<v Speaker 2>going to go away. They're always going to be be there,

1:00:02.920 --> 1:00:05.120
<v Speaker 2>you know, and I don't think they're as strong as

1:00:05.160 --> 1:00:07.560
<v Speaker 2>they were, but they're not going to go away though.

1:00:07.760 --> 1:00:10.600
<v Speaker 1>Okay, for you, you were tired and then you moved

1:00:10.640 --> 1:00:13.040
<v Speaker 1>on to a different job and all of that. What's

1:00:13.080 --> 1:00:16.280
<v Speaker 1>the biggest lesson you think you've learned from all of this? Again,

1:00:16.600 --> 1:00:18.720
<v Speaker 1>if I were your mother, I would have been terrified

1:00:18.840 --> 1:00:21.200
<v Speaker 1>for the more than a decade or two that you

1:00:21.280 --> 1:00:26.240
<v Speaker 1>worked under this specific thing. My grandmother was always terrified

1:00:26.240 --> 1:00:29.080
<v Speaker 1>because her son was ahead of swat here in Austin

1:00:29.240 --> 1:00:31.800
<v Speaker 1>and she just was the worst thing ever, But she

1:00:31.920 --> 1:00:32.760
<v Speaker 1>was so proud of him.

1:00:33.200 --> 1:00:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Well, even in my current job, I give safety tip training,

1:00:36.320 --> 1:00:38.720
<v Speaker 2>I give active shooter training. I just tell people all

1:00:38.760 --> 1:00:41.520
<v Speaker 2>the time, be a be aware of your surroundings, at

1:00:41.520 --> 1:00:45.360
<v Speaker 2>all times. You know, I think, just generally speaking, people

1:00:45.440 --> 1:00:48.760
<v Speaker 2>are addicted to their phone, and it just it annoys me,

1:00:48.840 --> 1:00:51.520
<v Speaker 2>especially when I'm walking down the street in New York City,

1:00:51.600 --> 1:00:55.040
<v Speaker 2>how people are just glued to their phone. You make

1:00:55.080 --> 1:00:59.040
<v Speaker 2>yourself vulnerable. It's like pay attention. It's like you look

1:00:59.120 --> 1:01:02.120
<v Speaker 2>like you're easy. So just be aware of your surroundings

1:01:02.120 --> 1:01:04.920
<v Speaker 2>at all times. Don't make yourself look like a victim.

1:01:05.200 --> 1:01:07.520
<v Speaker 2>And I constantly say, just try to say that to people.

1:01:08.040 --> 1:01:11.440
<v Speaker 1>So you made history right as an FBI agent. And

1:01:11.520 --> 1:01:14.200
<v Speaker 1>it all started with a handful of chocolates and some

1:01:14.240 --> 1:01:17.520
<v Speaker 1>orange juice and showing someone who it seems like much

1:01:17.560 --> 1:01:19.920
<v Speaker 1>of his life is based on trying to get respect.

1:01:20.240 --> 1:01:22.720
<v Speaker 1>You give him that respect, and it seemed I know

1:01:22.760 --> 1:01:24.360
<v Speaker 1>you did a lot of hard work, but to start

1:01:24.440 --> 1:01:26.840
<v Speaker 1>there and for it to be so successful so quickly,

1:01:27.040 --> 1:01:27.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, it was amazing.

1:01:28.320 --> 1:01:30.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think the stars were just the line. As

1:01:30.160 --> 1:01:32.760
<v Speaker 2>I said, you know, when I got to that surveillance squad,

1:01:32.880 --> 1:01:36.240
<v Speaker 2>I was very lucky there. And then during that rotational

1:01:36.320 --> 1:01:38.560
<v Speaker 2>process when you're a new agent, I just tried to

1:01:38.960 --> 1:01:41.480
<v Speaker 2>volunteer as much as I could. I went to the

1:01:41.520 --> 1:01:43.720
<v Speaker 2>head of the organized crime branch and just try to

1:01:43.760 --> 1:01:46.480
<v Speaker 2>sell myself and all you have in the bureau is

1:01:47.040 --> 1:01:50.720
<v Speaker 2>the reputation that you try to build. And thankfully they

1:01:50.880 --> 1:01:53.000
<v Speaker 2>just just gave me a shot and I just made

1:01:53.040 --> 1:01:56.440
<v Speaker 2>the most of that. I was blessed to get. You know,

1:01:56.560 --> 1:01:59.480
<v Speaker 2>have George Hannah as my mentor, and I just became

1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:01.880
<v Speaker 2>a spun and I'm still friends with Hin till today,

1:02:02.480 --> 1:02:05.400
<v Speaker 2>and you know, I all a lot to him. And

1:02:06.000 --> 1:02:07.840
<v Speaker 2>as I said, I just was blessed to work with

1:02:07.880 --> 1:02:22.600
<v Speaker 2>some great people. And it's always about about like the team.

1:02:22.640 --> 1:02:25.560
<v Speaker 1>If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

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1:02:28.680 --> 1:02:31.840
<v Speaker 1>Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

1:02:31.920 --> 1:02:35.200
<v Speaker 1>Don't Forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

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<v Speaker 1>crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

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<v Speaker 1>scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

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1:02:46.720 --> 1:02:51.080
<v Speaker 1>is Alexis M. Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

1:02:51.480 --> 1:02:55.080
<v Speaker 1>This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

1:02:55.120 --> 1:02:59.880
<v Speaker 1>our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstar,

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1:03:07.960 --> 1:03:10.600
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