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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: There was like four or fine people that he wanted

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Speaker 2: to kill because he didn't know who the rat was.

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Speaker 2: All that they knew is someone around them had been

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Speaker 2: talking to the Feds for two years. They didn't know

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Speaker 2: who it actually was.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. FBI agent Seamus mcallarney had

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Speaker 1: dreamed of investigating the mafia in New York when he

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Speaker 1: first joined the Bureau, but of course, no one would

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Speaker 1: flip on the families. No one had ever flipped on

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Speaker 1: the families until mcallarney did some research and he offered

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Speaker 1: a made man some orange juice, and then he made history.

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Speaker 1: He tells me about his book Flipping Capo, how the

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Speaker 1: FBI dismantled the real Sopranos. I will confess I don't

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Speaker 1: know a lot about the mafia. I've seen parts of

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Speaker 1: The Sopranos, but I am fearful of blood in movies,

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Speaker 1: and I have not done a ton of research, even

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Speaker 1: though you know I'm a crime historian. I've looked into

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Speaker 1: murder Inc. You know in New York, the very old

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Speaker 1: murder Inc. But I really don't know much about this.

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Speaker 1: Can you give me a very short, little overview of

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Speaker 1: what this is like, you know, especially in the time

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Speaker 1: period you're working in.

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Speaker 2: This time period relates to from nineteen ninety eight up

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Speaker 2: until two thousand and four. Is the investigation. It focuses

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Speaker 2: on the Decavalcanti family, and that is a Jersey family.

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Speaker 2: There are five families in New York, which are the

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Speaker 2: Banano family, Columbo family, Geneviez, Gambino, and Luczy family. So

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Speaker 2: those are the main five families in New York, and

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Speaker 2: the Jersey family is known as the six family. This

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Speaker 2: book basically targets the Decavalcanti family because the Sopranos is

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Speaker 2: based upon this family.

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Speaker 1: Let's get the Sopranos part out of the way. Is

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Speaker 1: this the creator or a writer on the show picking

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Speaker 1: up on this and saying this is a great family

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Speaker 1: for us to emulate and HBO is going to buy

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Speaker 1: it in a second?

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Speaker 2: Well, the director has said that he has not spoken

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Speaker 2: to anyone. But one thing that we can get into

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Speaker 2: today is the similarities between the real family and the show.

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Speaker 2: There's many similarities between the show and the real family.

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Speaker 1: Okay, do you consider this a memoir?

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Speaker 2: Well, this is just part of my career. This is

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Speaker 2: just the first park. So I was a brand new

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Speaker 2: agent when I got assigned to this case. After this case,

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Speaker 2: then I went on to basically run the Columbo squad

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Speaker 2: for the FBI, and I was able to dismantle that

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Speaker 2: family and also part of the Banano family as well,

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Speaker 2: which I help dismantle them. So this is just the

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Speaker 2: first part of my career.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, well let's jump into it. I know that

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Speaker 1: you are a main character, and then your subject is

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Speaker 1: a main character, but let's start with you, you know, and

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Speaker 1: kind of where you grew up rough streets. I assume yes.

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Speaker 2: I was actually born in New York City, raised in

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Speaker 2: the Bronx, and then I eventually moved to Westchester, but

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Speaker 2: in the Bronx. I was raised by two oh seventh

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Speaker 2: in Bainbridge Avenue, which was a predominantly Irish type of

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Speaker 2: neighborhood there. I've seen a lot of things happen during

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Speaker 2: that time period, you know, when I was growing up.

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Speaker 2: You know, I used to go to school and then

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Speaker 2: after school you would do your homework as quick as

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Speaker 2: you possibly can because there was a park across the

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Speaker 2: street from me, and we would go play ball a lot.

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Speaker 2: Even back then. We lived in an apartment building where

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Speaker 2: it was the ground floor apartment back then. Actually it's

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Speaker 2: pretty funny how you would play ball in the streets

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Speaker 2: and the buses and cars would actually stop. I don't

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Speaker 2: think that would happen nowadays, but they did back then.

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Speaker 2: But then as you grew older, going through I would say, sixth,

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Speaker 2: seventh and eighth grade, I saw friends, you know, get stabbed,

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Speaker 2: get shot. You grew up rather quickly back then, so

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Speaker 2: I saw a lot as a young person.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever get tempted to steer into criminal activity?

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Speaker 1: I would have to think it's sort of all over

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Speaker 1: the place around there'd be easy for you to get

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Speaker 1: scooped up.

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Speaker 2: Yes, you know, throughout your life you're always there's a

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Speaker 2: path that you can take it and go the right

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Speaker 2: way or the wrong way. My parents who came from Ireland,

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Speaker 2: they actually my mom left Ireland when she was seventeen

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Speaker 2: and my dad left when he was twenty, so they've

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Speaker 2: actually met in the Bronx themselves. They didn't go to

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Speaker 2: high school to college, so all they could actually really

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Speaker 2: tell you was to study hard, and they always tried

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Speaker 2: to put you on the right path. So one of

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Speaker 2: the traits that I think I actually had was common sense.

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Speaker 2: So yes, I could have went the wrong way in life.

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Speaker 2: I saw a lot of my friends not go the

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Speaker 2: right way. But I was tempted at times, but I

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Speaker 2: always chose the right, the right way in life. But

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Speaker 2: I saw a lot of people not go not go

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Speaker 2: the right way, especially in the area that I had

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Speaker 2: had grown up in.

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Speaker 1: What would that be? Would that be drug dealing or

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Speaker 1: gambling or what was surrounding you.

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Speaker 2: It could be taking drugs, it could be stealing things.

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Speaker 2: It'd be getting involved with the wrong crowd. You know,

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Speaker 2: I constantly saw that, so you know, I was able

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Speaker 2: to actually just choose the right paths in life. And

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Speaker 2: one of the things I think that helped me when

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Speaker 2: I became an FBI an agent years later was I

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Speaker 2: could always think like a purp. I think that actually

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Speaker 2: helped me throughout my career.

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Speaker 1: Now, is the Irish mob in your neighborhood or does

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Speaker 1: the mob even exist?

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Speaker 2: The Irish mob is known as the Westies. I guess

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Speaker 2: back then they weren't in the neighborhood that I grew up,

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Speaker 2: but it was a predominantly Irish type neighborhood in the

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Speaker 2: sense is a lot of people came from Ireland, a

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Speaker 2: lot of Irish immigrants that had gotten to that type

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Speaker 2: of area that I had grown up in. So it

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Speaker 2: really wasn't a gang or a mob though.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you know I have written a lot about Tammany

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Speaker 1: and eighteen hundreds, early nineteen hundreds, and so I'm so

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Speaker 1: used to how prolific Irish police officers were on the

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Speaker 1: streets of New York. Is that just a thread that

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Speaker 1: gets pulled throughout history? Is that true even today? That

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Speaker 1: it's just something that you know, it's a familiarity among

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Speaker 1: that community.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it seems that a lot of Irish people do

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Speaker 2: try to gravitate to law enforcement. But my dad was

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Speaker 2: an in law and law enforcement or anyone in his

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Speaker 2: particular family either. My dad actually had a gas station

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Speaker 2: in the Bronx. So I was the first one to

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Speaker 2: go into law and to law enforcement. And also my

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Speaker 2: brother followed in my footsteps as well. He was a

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Speaker 2: mechanically worked for my father too, and then he actually

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Speaker 2: joined the FBI himself and he's a supervisor there too.

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Speaker 2: So my brother and I were the first ones to

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Speaker 2: go into law enforcement from our family.

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Speaker 1: That must have scared your mother to death two kids.

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Speaker 1: As a parent, I would say that would scare me

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Speaker 1: to death. Yes, she always worried about both of you.

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Speaker 1: I have to assume yes.

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Speaker 2: And you know I didn't tell her a lot of

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Speaker 2: the things that that we went through either, you know,

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Speaker 2: not to scare her.

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Speaker 1: So when did you first start to become just an

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Speaker 1: interested in law enforcement in general? And then when did

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Speaker 1: this switch to the FBI.

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Speaker 2: I went to college and I got a degree in finance,

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Speaker 2: and when I got out of school, my dad actually

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Speaker 2: helped me go throughout school without any having any student loans.

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Speaker 2: So when I had graduated school. As a way to

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Speaker 2: repay him, I worked at his gas station for about

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Speaker 2: two years to kind of to repay him back, and

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Speaker 2: to be honest, when I got out of school, I

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Speaker 2: really didn't know what I had wanted to do. And

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Speaker 2: then I got an offer or there was an opportunity

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Speaker 2: to work in a bank to do audit. So that

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Speaker 2: was my first job. And the thing that was funny

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Speaker 2: when I went through the interview process for this bank,

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Speaker 2: I got all the way up to the director of

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Speaker 2: audit and I didn't even know this, and he didn't

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Speaker 2: even know it either. But when I got to the

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Speaker 2: director of audit, the gentleman who I was going to

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Speaker 2: interview with, he actually worked at my dad's gas station

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Speaker 2: years prior. So, needless to say, I got the job,

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Speaker 2: and that was my introduction to the private sector. I

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Speaker 2: worked there for a couple of years. I worked at

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Speaker 2: a bank that I worked for, an insurance company called

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Speaker 2: the IG. Then I actually worked at a French bank,

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Speaker 2: but I didn't have a passion for it. And then

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Speaker 2: suddenly I actually met an agent that worked for the FBI,

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Speaker 2: and I was just fascinated by it. And during the

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Speaker 2: early nineteen nineties there was a hiring phrase with the

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Speaker 2: FBI from like nineteen ninety to ninety five, where they

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Speaker 2: didn't hire people. So speaking to this agent, just hearing

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Speaker 2: that every day was different. One day you could be

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Speaker 2: doing surveillance. Another day you could be speaking to a CEO.

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Speaker 2: I know that day could be going to court. It

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Speaker 2: just seemed just fascinating to me. So at that point

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Speaker 2: I just became interested in applying for the FBI. And

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Speaker 2: I was constantly told that you don't stand a chance.

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Speaker 2: You know, you don't have the background, and I was

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Speaker 2: just determined to do it. And back then the whole

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Speaker 2: process probably took about two years, and I applied in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six and I actually was accepted in ninety eight,

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Speaker 2: and back then because there was a hiring frieze. When

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Speaker 2: the hiring freeze was lifted, I was told that there

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Speaker 2: was just about one hundred thousand applicants in New York alone.

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Speaker 2: So again my odds are kind of stacked against me,

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Speaker 2: and they said that they were only accepting like two percent.

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Speaker 2: So I was very fortunate to be selected and I

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Speaker 2: got chosen to go down to Quantico in nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 2: That's how it started in my class. I think we

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Speaker 2: started with fifty people and at the end of our

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Speaker 2: training training back then was four months. Our class graduated

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Speaker 2: with thirty seven people.

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Speaker 1: Well what scared off everybody else?

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Speaker 2: Well, there's just because you get accepted to go there,

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Speaker 2: there's still training that you have to do. There's the

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Speaker 2: academic part, the physical part, and even when you first

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Speaker 2: go the first week, just because you see the initials

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Speaker 2: and you know it seems like it's a pretty cool

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Speaker 2: job to work, there is some serious threats behind it,

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Speaker 2: so that even the first week they show you the

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Speaker 2: seriousness behind it, like they'll show you videos that people

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Speaker 2: are getting shot and things like that. So there is

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Speaker 2: a threat element to it, and sometimes people just scared.

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Speaker 2: I'll get scared by that, so some people would just

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Speaker 2: drop out. And then also what happens is around the

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Speaker 2: seventh or eighth week that you're there, they tell you

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Speaker 2: what office you're going to go to. And I have

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Speaker 2: the time was single, but you can imagine if you

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Speaker 2: were married with kids and say you're from Chicago, when

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Speaker 2: that seventh or eighth week that you're there, they tell

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Speaker 2: you what offers you're going to go to, and you're

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Speaker 2: married with kids, you go up there, and you're not

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Speaker 2: going back to the office that you came from. So

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Speaker 2: if you're from Chicago, you might be sent to Texas.

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Speaker 2: So that's an altering experience that you're going to go

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Speaker 2: through that night when you go home and you tell

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Speaker 2: your wife and kids that in six weeks you're going

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Speaker 2: to move to the opposite end of the states, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean. So people chose not to move too.

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Speaker 2: So these are things that have and then, as I said,

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Speaker 2: the academic portion of it or the physical portion of

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Speaker 2: it would knock people out. I do remember one person

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Speaker 2: in our class. He had gotten Lasik surgery and at

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Speaker 2: that point in time, the FBI wouldn't allow you to

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Speaker 2: get that type of surgery, and he hid it from

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Speaker 2: the FBI. And one of the things when you go

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Speaker 2: through training is you have to get sprayed with mace.

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Speaker 2: Oh no, So right before he got sprayed with mace,

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Speaker 2: he had to come forward and tell them that because

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Speaker 2: if he didn't, he would have been blinded. So he

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Speaker 2: couldn't get sprayed with mace. And they threw him out

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Speaker 2: because of his lack of candor. Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 1: And now you can have a Lisik surgery if you're

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Speaker 1: in the FBI.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and I actually had it in like two thousand

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Speaker 2: and one.

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Speaker 1: That's quickly as possible. Your time in Quantico was that

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Speaker 1: your first exposure to, I have to believe, mafia stuff.

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Speaker 1: Was that the first time you really get to see

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Speaker 1: what you might have to deal with.

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Speaker 2: Right. So when I was there, they give you all

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Speaker 2: sorts of training, and to me, I was just excited

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Speaker 2: about the mob because the mob is into everything whatever

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Speaker 2: way they can possibly make money. When you study white collar,

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Speaker 2: it's just white collar, or when it's drugs, it's just drugs.

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Speaker 2: But with the mafia, wherever they can make money, they're

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Speaker 2: going to be into that and it could be extortions,

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Speaker 2: white collar, drugs, murder, and back then I would read

256
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Speaker 2: about seeing me the bull or Gotti from the Gambino family.

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Speaker 2: So I was just excited about that, and it's something

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Speaker 2: that I had a passion for. Now with the FBI,

259
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Speaker 2: you don't get to choose what you're going to work.

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Speaker 2: It's always the needs of the bureau. They tell you

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Speaker 2: what you're going to work. But I had a passion

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Speaker 2: for that. And what happened was I had graduated in

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Speaker 2: May of ninety eight. That year and I got sent

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Speaker 2: back to New York. It was fortunate to be sent

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Speaker 2: back to New York. No one wants to work in

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Speaker 2: New York because the cost of living is so high

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Speaker 2: and because crime is so high. And I was told

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Speaker 2: before I went down there there was a ninety nine

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Speaker 2: percent chance so I was going to be sent back

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Speaker 2: to New York. So thankfully I was sent back to

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Speaker 2: New York because it would have been a culture shock

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Speaker 2: to me if I wasn't going to be sent back

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Speaker 2: to New York. I got sent back to New York

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Speaker 2: in May of nineteen ninety eight. And when you get

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Speaker 2: sent back to New York, they put you through a rotation,

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Speaker 2: and one of the rotations they put you through is surveillance.

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Speaker 2: And at that point in time, I was assigned to

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Speaker 2: a squad called SO two, and they just happened to

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Speaker 2: be surveilling a gentleman who was known as a proactive witness.

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Speaker 2: They were tailing him and he was investigating or they

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Speaker 2: were investigating the Dicavalcanti family. And I was fortunate to

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Speaker 2: be on that squad. And that kind of starts how

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Speaker 2: I get assigned to this case, because then eventually I

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Speaker 2: get assigned to a squad called C ten that in

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Speaker 2: December of nineteen ninety eight, and that squad is responsible

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Speaker 2: for the Banano family and also the Decavalcantis. And I

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Speaker 2: know you're probably thinking, how does the New York FBI

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Speaker 2: take down the Jersey family or kind of get involved

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Speaker 2: with that? And I can kind of rewind and tell

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Speaker 2: you how that happens. So this case starts in January

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Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety eight, before I even go to Quantico.

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Speaker 2: There's two events that Happennuary of nineteen ninety eight, I

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Speaker 2: think it was the fourteenth, I believe of January. Three

294
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Speaker 2: individuals actually rob the World Trade Center and they come

295
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Speaker 2: out and they do rob it. They come out, but

296
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Speaker 2: they take their mask off and they are immediately caught

297
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Speaker 2: because the cameras are there. So two guys were caught

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Speaker 2: that day. A third person fled to New Mexico and

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Speaker 2: he was caught pretty quickly, in like two or three days.

300
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Speaker 2: The mastermind behind the robbery sees the walls or starting

301
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Speaker 2: to cave in, and he calls a legendary agent named

302
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Speaker 2: George Hannah, and George is from Brooklyn and basically convinces

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Speaker 2: Ralph Guarino, the mastermind, to become a proactive witness. When

304
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Speaker 2: I say a proactive witness, what I mean by that

305
00:14:39,760 --> 00:14:41,720
Speaker 2: is that's a witness who's going to stay on the

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Speaker 2: street and make consensual recordings covert recordings.

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Speaker 1: So an informant is that different than an informant.

308
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Speaker 2: Yep, But he's going to be a cooperating witness as

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Speaker 2: opposed to an informant, so meaning he's going to testify

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Speaker 2: if need be. So that's the first event that happens.

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Speaker 2: About nine days later, on January t twenty third, Joseph

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Speaker 2: Conniglierro is killed. Joseph Connigliero is a decavalcant, the associate

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Speaker 2: who was a ruthless person. He was confined to a wheelchair,

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Speaker 2: but he was a very ruthless person who was a dicavalcant,

315
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Speaker 2: the associate who tortured his crew. How he got confined

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Speaker 2: to a wheelchair is in the seventies, him and a

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Speaker 2: decaalalcanty soldier named James Gallo went to go collect loan

318
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Speaker 2: short money and James Gallo accidentally shot Joseph Knnigliero and

319
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Speaker 2: paralyzed them. But there was no hard feelings about that.

320
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Speaker 2: It's just the cost of doing mob business. But Joseph

321
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Speaker 2: Kniglier was in a wheelchair from nineteen seventies to up

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Speaker 2: until his death in nineteen ninety eight. The reason they

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Speaker 2: killed him was because he tortured his crew. And what

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Speaker 2: he used to do, even though he was in a

325
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Speaker 2: wheelchair is he would call you over and shoot you

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Speaker 2: and have his crew clean up the body and put

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Speaker 2: them in a rug or a tarp and get rid

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Speaker 2: of the body. So he was killed because he tortured

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Speaker 2: his crew. So those are the two events that happened

330
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Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety eight, right before I even go to training.

331
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Speaker 2: So then, as I said, I just the stars are aligned,

332
00:16:05,960 --> 00:16:08,840
Speaker 2: where I get assigned to a surveillance squad that is

333
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Speaker 2: actually monitoring Ralph or trying to protect Ralph, and then

334
00:16:12,480 --> 00:16:15,880
Speaker 2: I get assigned to C ten, which is handling this case.

335
00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,160
Speaker 2: And when you have a proactive witness, you never know

336
00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,200
Speaker 2: where he's going to go, meaning you don't know who

337
00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:25,080
Speaker 2: he's going to ingratiate himself to or who he's going

338
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Speaker 2: to infiltrate. And Ralph, at George's direction, infiltrated the Brooklyn

339
00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,440
Speaker 2: faction of the Decavalcanti family. And that's how the New

340
00:16:34,520 --> 00:16:38,920
Speaker 2: York FBI gets into the Decavalcanti family and Ralph basically

341
00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:43,000
Speaker 2: was operated for two years from January nineteen ninety eight

342
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Speaker 2: up until December of nineteen ninety nine. During those two years,

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00:16:47,880 --> 00:16:52,080
Speaker 2: he made about three hundred consentual recordings and the surveillance

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00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:55,880
Speaker 2: team was dedicated to Ralph. We probably had about one

345
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,280
Speaker 2: thousand surveillance locks where they would watch him like maybe

346
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:03,600
Speaker 2: twice a day for his safety. So George his main

347
00:17:03,880 --> 00:17:07,639
Speaker 2: purpose is to keep Ralph safe. And as a new agent,

348
00:17:07,680 --> 00:17:09,480
Speaker 2: I'm going to be a sponge and try to learn

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Speaker 2: as much as I can from George. And George was

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Speaker 2: my mentor, so I did all the admin work, learned

351
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Speaker 2: as much as I could from George, and then what

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00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,639
Speaker 2: happens is we have our first round of indictments in

353
00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:25,560
Speaker 2: December of nineteen ninety nine, because, as I said, Ralph

354
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Speaker 2: was on the street for two years and there started

355
00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,000
Speaker 2: to be whispers, why hasn't Ralph been arrested if he

356
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,280
Speaker 2: was the mastermind of the robbery, and there started to

357
00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:38,560
Speaker 2: be whispers about that, and then they might try to

358
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 2: hurt him. So for his safety, we had to take

359
00:17:41,040 --> 00:17:43,879
Speaker 2: down the case. And as a new agent, I'm hoping

360
00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 2: to be part of an arrest team, and when you're

361
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:48,280
Speaker 2: a new agent, they kind of put you in rear

362
00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,400
Speaker 2: security for your own safety. And we arrested thirty nine

363
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Speaker 2: people in December of nineteen ninety nine. One of the

364
00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:57,320
Speaker 2: individuals was a guy named Anthony Capo. Anthony Campo was

365
00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,520
Speaker 2: a violent Decabocanty soldier from stant Nay and Lo and

366
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Speaker 2: behold for all the hard work that I did, I

367
00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:06,520
Speaker 2: was assigned to be the team leader, not to be

368
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 2: only arresting, to actually be the team leader to arrest him.

369
00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,159
Speaker 2: And that's how it start to take a monumental step

370
00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:14,560
Speaker 2: in this case. So my job is to arrest him

371
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 2: in December of nineteen ninety nine, which I do.

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00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:21,680
Speaker 1: Let's just close out Ralph's story. What was his supposed

373
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Speaker 1: role when you all were surveiling him and he's making

374
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Speaker 1: all of these recording secret recordings. What was his role?

375
00:18:27,800 --> 00:18:30,439
Speaker 2: So he was an associate, right, So he's not a

376
00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,960
Speaker 2: made member of the family, and he's trying to ingratiate

377
00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:37,160
Speaker 2: himself to not just the Decalbocanties, but anyone that would

378
00:18:37,160 --> 00:18:40,280
Speaker 2: listen to him. Now, Ralph was like a small time

379
00:18:40,359 --> 00:18:43,080
Speaker 2: crook at the time who was always into swag like

380
00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,000
Speaker 2: selling things, like stealing things and trying to sell things.

381
00:18:46,359 --> 00:18:49,399
Speaker 2: So during that two year time period, the FBIO is

382
00:18:49,440 --> 00:18:53,159
Speaker 2: always coming up with scenarios to actually ingratiate himself to

383
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:56,960
Speaker 2: the bad guys, like we would sell stolen cigarettes, we

384
00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,000
Speaker 2: would sell stolen TVs like things like that. We would

385
00:19:01,040 --> 00:19:04,960
Speaker 2: front him, and also we would give him authorization to

386
00:19:05,000 --> 00:19:08,400
Speaker 2: do some criminal acts, right, because you just can't be

387
00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:12,280
Speaker 2: suddenly turned yourself into a choir boy, right. So there's

388
00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,639
Speaker 2: a certain authorization based upon coordination with the attorney's office.

389
00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 2: And in New York, in Lower Manhattan, there's two districts.

390
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:23,800
Speaker 2: There's the Eastern District in the Southern District. Right, this

391
00:19:23,920 --> 00:19:26,160
Speaker 2: case was out of the Southern District of New York.

392
00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 2: So we're working hand in hand with the attorneys to

393
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:32,400
Speaker 2: get authorization for Ralph to do certain acts because, as

394
00:19:32,400 --> 00:19:35,320
Speaker 2: I said, we're trying to give the impression that he's

395
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,440
Speaker 2: still a bed guy even though we're controlling him. And

396
00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:40,560
Speaker 2: that's what he did. He did that for two years

397
00:19:40,560 --> 00:19:43,600
Speaker 2: and made over three hundred recordings and one of the

398
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 2: things that we even have the Sopranos starts in January

399
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:50,400
Speaker 2: of nineteen ninety nine, We have a consensu recording in

400
00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 2: March of ninety nine of the Dicavalcanties talking about the

401
00:19:54,880 --> 00:19:59,000
Speaker 2: show and actually saying this is you, this is you,

402
00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:03,080
Speaker 2: this is you, which was priceless for trial years later.

403
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:07,560
Speaker 2: But Ralph did a tremendous job. But there's always a

404
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 2: safety aspect to it, because when you send a proactive

405
00:20:11,040 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 2: witness out, he could get caught. You you know, I

406
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,480
Speaker 2: can't say what type of device he used or where

407
00:20:16,480 --> 00:20:19,159
Speaker 2: the device was, but there's always that danger element that

408
00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:21,480
Speaker 2: they might find out that he's a witness. And as

409
00:20:21,480 --> 00:20:24,520
Speaker 2: I said, you know, there were always suspicious as to

410
00:20:24,640 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 2: him being out there for two years and hasn't been arrested.

411
00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:31,159
Speaker 1: Well, and also what if his situation escalates unexpectedly and

412
00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:33,680
Speaker 1: he has to kill someone or who's you know, I mean,

413
00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,760
Speaker 1: what does the FBI do in that kind of case.

414
00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 2: Well, that's why there we're constantly trying to monitor him

415
00:20:39,400 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 2: and have a surveillance team there so it wouldn't get

416
00:20:41,960 --> 00:20:44,199
Speaker 2: to that. You know, years later, I did have a

417
00:20:44,240 --> 00:20:46,720
Speaker 2: situation when I was a supervisor of a Columbo squad

418
00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:49,000
Speaker 2: where we didn't have a witness kill someone, but he

419
00:20:49,040 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 2: did have to hurt somebody.

420
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 1: So did Ralph testify then be sent into witness protection

421
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,080
Speaker 1: and then end up in Kansas somewhere most likely? Or

422
00:20:57,080 --> 00:20:57,800
Speaker 1: how did that work?

423
00:20:57,920 --> 00:21:01,200
Speaker 2: Okay, So we take that a case and we moved

424
00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,399
Speaker 2: Rauph for his safety. Ralph chose because you have an option, right,

425
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:06,320
Speaker 2: you have an option to go into the Witness Security

426
00:21:06,359 --> 00:21:08,879
Speaker 2: program or not. The Witness Security program is run by

427
00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:12,360
Speaker 2: the US Marshall Service. Ralph chose not to go into

428
00:21:12,400 --> 00:21:15,080
Speaker 2: the program. He chose to be relocated, which we did

429
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:18,480
Speaker 2: relocate him because the case was so successful, and we're

430
00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:21,240
Speaker 2: going to get into how it kind of spiraled into

431
00:21:21,600 --> 00:21:26,399
Speaker 2: effects of cooperation. Ralph at the end didn't need to testify.

432
00:21:26,880 --> 00:21:30,320
Speaker 2: The tapes stood by themselves, and I'll start to explain

433
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:33,400
Speaker 2: how we started to unravel the case. So I'm tasked

434
00:21:33,440 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 2: with arresting Anthony Capo, a violent Decavalcanti soldier who is

435
00:21:37,800 --> 00:21:42,119
Speaker 2: hated by law enforcement and also not well liked within

436
00:21:42,200 --> 00:21:45,399
Speaker 2: the mob himself. He was such a violent person that

437
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 2: at that particular time, he was reporting to the acting

438
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 2: boss of the Decavalcanti family, Vincent Palermo. So what I

439
00:21:53,240 --> 00:21:55,199
Speaker 2: did is when I went to go arrest him, I

440
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,560
Speaker 2: had witnessed George how he treated Ralph for those two years.

441
00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 2: And despite the background that Anthony had of being hated

442
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 2: by a law enforcement I wasn't going to treat him

443
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,000
Speaker 2: that way. I was going to treat him with respect.

444
00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 2: And I studied him like you would study for a test.

445
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:13,760
Speaker 2: So I knew everything about him. I knew everything about

446
00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,199
Speaker 2: his family, his kids, their dates of birds, social Security numbers,

447
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 2: phone numbers, I knew everything about his charges. So, as

448
00:22:20,320 --> 00:22:22,680
Speaker 2: I said, when we went to go arrest him, he

449
00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,680
Speaker 2: wasn't there, and all the planning that you do went

450
00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:29,000
Speaker 2: out the window. And when we went to arrest him,

451
00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 2: his wife told us that he was at his mom's house.

452
00:22:31,960 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 2: So when I went to his mother's house with the

453
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:37,919
Speaker 2: arrest team, I didn't see this hated person that I

454
00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: had learned about or that I was told about. I

455
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,199
Speaker 2: saw actually a very loving relationship that he had with

456
00:22:43,240 --> 00:22:45,840
Speaker 2: his family, which threw me for a loop. So I

457
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,560
Speaker 2: did arrest him, and when we got him dressed and

458
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 2: he came out, he was wearing a Dallas Cowboy jacket.

459
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: Now I'm a Pittsburgh Steeler fan.

460
00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 1: It would neither of you support a football team in

461
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,639
Speaker 1: New York or New Jersey.

462
00:22:58,440 --> 00:23:00,920
Speaker 2: Well, you see, in the seventies, the Steelers were good,

463
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: and I'm a loyal person and I stayed with them.

464
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,840
Speaker 2: And I guess he had the same type of thinking

465
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:09,680
Speaker 2: as well. So when I did arrest him, I brought

466
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:11,920
Speaker 2: him out, and I had did my homework on him,

467
00:23:11,960 --> 00:23:14,560
Speaker 2: and he was a diabetic, so I made sure that

468
00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 2: I had orange juice and cholcle with me in cases

469
00:23:18,160 --> 00:23:22,280
Speaker 2: blood sugar dropped. And he saw that as a signed

470
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,919
Speaker 2: me being a decent human being. Right, And he had

471
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:28,919
Speaker 2: told me years later that no one had ever treated

472
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:32,040
Speaker 2: him with respect. All. His interaction with law enforcement was

473
00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: hostile too, And we always know that there's two sides

474
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:37,120
Speaker 2: to every story, right, So even though I had heard

475
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,359
Speaker 2: an aran that he was hostile to law enforcement, I

476
00:23:39,359 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 2: guess the interaction on the other side was the same way.

477
00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: How would law enforcement interact with one of these guys

478
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,800
Speaker 1: who were arrested and associate or made person whoever? Is

479
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 1: it with physical aggression? I mean, what is the best

480
00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,919
Speaker 1: way beside your way to get information out of somebody

481
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: like that?

482
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,399
Speaker 2: Well, I don't think it's physical aggression. I guess I

483
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 2: think it's it's your verbal tone. And I think it's

484
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:05,360
Speaker 2: how you interact with them. And I was always taught

485
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,560
Speaker 2: you get more bees with honey. That's the approach that

486
00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,920
Speaker 2: you should take. And one thing that even years later,

487
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 2: as I said, this is just a start of my career,

488
00:24:14,080 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 2: I used to always tell people too, do not make

489
00:24:17,240 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 2: this personal, because one day you're going to have to

490
00:24:20,160 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 2: turn in your badge and your gun and the mob

491
00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,879
Speaker 2: that doesn't forget, So don't make this personal. And also,

492
00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: the mob can size you up very very quickly. They'll

493
00:24:30,320 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 2: know within a minute or two if you're a tough

494
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: guy or not, So don't try to be a tough

495
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:36,840
Speaker 2: guy if you're not. That's always the approach that I took.

496
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:39,960
Speaker 2: So I decided to treat him with respect. And as

497
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 2: I said, I studied him like left and right. So

498
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:46,040
Speaker 2: I had some banter back and forth with him, and

499
00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:48,359
Speaker 2: then I read him his rights and he invoked his

500
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: right to counsel and his right to remain silent, and

501
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,400
Speaker 2: that's exactly what I wanted him to do. So then

502
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 2: there's some general questions that I can ask him, such

503
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: as what's your day of birth? You know, where do

504
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 2: you live and all this stuff. And when I was

505
00:25:00,720 --> 00:25:04,160
Speaker 2: asking these questions, before he could answer, I would give

506
00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:07,040
Speaker 2: him the answer, and I was playing with him, letting

507
00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:08,960
Speaker 2: him know that I knew a lot more about him

508
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:10,800
Speaker 2: than he thought I knew. Then, when I started to

509
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,240
Speaker 2: talk to him about the charges, because he invoked his

510
00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: right to counsel and remained silent, I told him, do

511
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:19,520
Speaker 2: not say anything, because I can no longer ask him

512
00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:23,400
Speaker 2: questions legally, that doesn't stop me from giving him a statement.

513
00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: So what I did is he was charged with two

514
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 2: things at that particular time, conspiracy to murdered Charlie Majury,

515
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: who is an acting panel boss, and mail fraud. So

516
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 2: I said, related to your conspiracy murdered Charlie Majury, your

517
00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:39,680
Speaker 2: plan was to ring his doorbell and shoot him in

518
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 2: the face. The reason that you didn't do that was

519
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 2: because there was a cop on the block. And again

520
00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:47,360
Speaker 2: I said, don't say anything. Now Here I am. I'm

521
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:51,119
Speaker 2: giving him facts which I know are true. I know

522
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,960
Speaker 2: they're true because they were on a consensual recording where

523
00:25:53,960 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 2: he's talked about it. Now, you got to put yourself

524
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,320
Speaker 2: in his shoes at six o'clock in the morning. He

525
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,959
Speaker 2: doesn't know where where this evidence is coming from. He

526
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 2: doesn't know Ralph is a cooperating witness for the government,

527
00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:07,800
Speaker 2: and he knows I'm not lying. And that's the thing is,

528
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 2: if you lie to these guys, you're done. So that

529
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 2: was the first thing. The second thing was the mail fraud. Now,

530
00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 2: back in the day, if you remember, you could rent

531
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,160
Speaker 2: a mailbox and it would say sweet and you would

532
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: be led to believe that you would have this nice

533
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,720
Speaker 2: office building. Well that's what they did, related to a

534
00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,800
Speaker 2: mail fraud that was going to lead to stock fraud.

535
00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 2: So I just a little shot saying, oh, that was

536
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,639
Speaker 2: really cute that you guys did that, and again told him,

537
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 2: don't say anything, and then I would make him think

538
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 2: for a little bit as I talked to the driver,

539
00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: and we had this banter back and forth all day,

540
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,040
Speaker 2: and I treated him with respect, and I treated his

541
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 2: family with respect, and I treated his stepfather with respect,

542
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:44,840
Speaker 2: who I had to meet later that day. And this

543
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,919
Speaker 2: just went on all all day. And then about a

544
00:26:47,960 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: week later, I got a phone call from his attorney

545
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 2: and his attorney said he wanted to cooperate. Now, unbeknownst

546
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:56,080
Speaker 2: to me because I'm a new agent, but at that

547
00:26:56,119 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 2: point in time, no main member in the decavalcantis your

548
00:27:00,359 --> 00:27:03,639
Speaker 2: history had ever cooperated with the government before. This was

549
00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 2: kind of a shock to me. Right, I wasn't expecting this.

550
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:09,000
Speaker 2: I was just treating him with respect and treating him

551
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: as a decent human being, not knowing where it was

552
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 2: going to go. But that's when my world changed.

553
00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:17,600
Speaker 1: Were your superiors giving you so much leeway that you

554
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:19,439
Speaker 1: were allowed to do this or did anybody look at

555
00:27:19,440 --> 00:27:22,600
Speaker 1: you sideyed, like going, what are you doing with this jerk,

556
00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: this killer, this awful person who has tortured people and

557
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:26,600
Speaker 1: you're giving him orange juice?

558
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 2: No, they kind of laughed that I was able to

559
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 2: flip him by being sincere. What did happen was there

560
00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:38,080
Speaker 2: was whispers and talk that I was too young and

561
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: too new to run a guy like this as a

562
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: maid member, that I didn't have the experience. But my

563
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,439
Speaker 2: supervisor at the time, Jack Stubing, he believed in me

564
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 2: and he said, no, he flipped him. He deserves to

565
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,240
Speaker 2: run him. And that's what happened. I was able to

566
00:27:55,280 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: run him. And what happens is when I got that call,

567
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:02,479
Speaker 2: I immediately called the assistant from the Southern District, Maria Barton,

568
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:06,160
Speaker 2: and she was a seasoned attorney, and she was immediately

569
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 2: nervous as to what did I say to the attorney,

570
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 2: And in situations like this, less is more. So I

571
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 2: just told her that I told him that I would

572
00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,800
Speaker 2: call you so and then what happens is And this

573
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: is one of the things about the book that I

574
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:24,040
Speaker 2: try to explain is how the cooperation process starts and

575
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:27,400
Speaker 2: how it actually goes through. And actually I explain trials,

576
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 2: and this is I don't think it's been done too

577
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 2: much before. So you start a proffer, that's the first

578
00:28:33,200 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: thing that you do. And a profit is an agreement

579
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 2: between the government and defense attorney and the defendant where

580
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 2: the defendant has to come in and he has to

581
00:28:43,280 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: tell you the truth and he has to tell you

582
00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: all his crimes. So it's a very dicey situation because

583
00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,080
Speaker 2: you're moving the defendant from prison in a very short

584
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:56,280
Speaker 2: period of time, and the bad guy's going to know

585
00:28:56,360 --> 00:28:59,480
Speaker 2: that he's not in prison, and so he can't He

586
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 2: has to come prepared, and you can't be half pregnant.

587
00:29:03,320 --> 00:29:04,840
Speaker 2: You have to make sure that if you're going to

588
00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:06,840
Speaker 2: do this, you're going to make sure you're going to

589
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 2: honestly do it. So we schedule a profit with Anthony,

590
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:15,080
Speaker 2: and I'm in the session with the attorney. I'm in

591
00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 2: the session with George Hannah, the legend that I talked about,

592
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,640
Speaker 2: and another Southern District investigator, Kenny McCabe, another legend, and

593
00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:26,440
Speaker 2: myself the attorney for Anthony Capo and Anthony, and Anthony

594
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,080
Speaker 2: comes clean. The first thing that you want to do

595
00:29:29,120 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 2: when you have a profit is you want the defendant

596
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,360
Speaker 2: to admit the charges that he's charged with. So we

597
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,520
Speaker 2: want to make sure that what he's charged with were

598
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 2: actually correct. So make him eat the indictment. It's called

599
00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:46,000
Speaker 2: that he's going to tell us that the conspiracy to

600
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 2: murdered Charlie Majury, that he's guilty of that and also

601
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,360
Speaker 2: guilty of the mail fraud. And he does. Then he

602
00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,080
Speaker 2: blows us out of the water. The first three things

603
00:29:56,080 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 2: that he tells us is there's a leak in the

604
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:03,240
Speaker 2: Southern District. That's why he wasn't home, That's why numerous

605
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:04,560
Speaker 2: people weren't home that day.

606
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:06,840
Speaker 1: Is that FBI leak or what kind of leak is that?

607
00:30:07,320 --> 00:30:09,440
Speaker 2: So the case is out of the Southern District of

608
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 2: New York, that's the prosecutor's office. So there was an

609
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 2: alleged court reporter who was feeding information to the bad guys.

610
00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:22,040
Speaker 2: And we'll get to all the arrests later, but that's

611
00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:23,960
Speaker 2: what he tells us. That there's a leak in the

612
00:30:24,000 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 2: Southern District and we knew you guys were coming, so

613
00:30:27,520 --> 00:30:29,480
Speaker 2: you know that could have been a danger element where

614
00:30:29,520 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: someone could have gotten hurt.

615
00:30:30,920 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: Did anybody suspect Ralph.

616
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,800
Speaker 2: Well, they didn't know. They knew that there was a

617
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: rat among them. They didn't know it was Ralph though.

618
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:42,560
Speaker 2: And during that time period, what happens is Bennie Palermo,

619
00:30:42,680 --> 00:30:45,720
Speaker 2: the acting boss before the arrest, he wanted to kill

620
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,280
Speaker 2: a bunch of people because his paranoia story had to

621
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:51,680
Speaker 2: run rampant. Ralph was one of them. This other guy

622
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 2: named Frank Scarabina was another one. There was like four

623
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 2: or five people that he wanted to kill because he

624
00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 2: didn't know who the rat was. All that they knew

625
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: is someone around them had been talking to the Feds

626
00:31:01,160 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: for two years. They didn't know who it actually was.

627
00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: So that's the first thing that he tells us. The

628
00:31:06,800 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: second thing that he tells us is that he was

629
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,400
Speaker 2: involved in the murder of a guy named Fred Weiss.

630
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,400
Speaker 2: Fred Weiss was a Jewish businessman from Staten Island who

631
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: was killed on September eleventh, Horrible Day of nineteen eighty nine.

632
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: The reason that he was killed is because John Gotti

633
00:31:24,440 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 2: wanted him killed. John Gotty wanted him killed because John

634
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:32,360
Speaker 2: Gotty thought mister Weiss was cooperating with the government. The

635
00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:35,280
Speaker 2: reason he thought he was cooperating with the government is

636
00:31:35,360 --> 00:31:40,320
Speaker 2: because he switched lawyers. That's the only reason that he

637
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 2: thought he was cooperating in the government, pure paranoia. He

638
00:31:44,640 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: was not cooperating with the government. Now, from a new

639
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 2: agent perspective, as I just told you before, I'm going

640
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 2: from reading about the mob, Samuel the Bull and John Gotti,

641
00:31:57,200 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 2: it's actually hearing about a murder that John Gotti has

642
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,200
Speaker 2: now authorized. All this within a year, so this is

643
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:07,240
Speaker 2: very surreal to me. Then, the third thing that he

644
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 2: tells us is that he was the shooter in the

645
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 2: murder of John Demotto, and John Dematto was the acting

646
00:32:14,360 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 2: underboss of the Decalbalcanti family who was killed because he

647
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 2: was going to sex clubs and having sex with men.

648
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: That's another angle related to the Sopranos. So these are

649
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,040
Speaker 2: three things that he tells us out of the gate

650
00:32:28,360 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: he has just exposed himself to a life sentence as

651
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 2: opposed to twenty years. So we all have to huddle

652
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: and basically determine if he's telling us the truth. Of course,

653
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 2: we say he's telling us the truth because he just

654
00:32:42,880 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: exposes himself to a life sentence. And then we have

655
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:49,160
Speaker 2: to move him. We have to plan to move him

656
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 2: to another facility. We also, he didn't put the bodies,

657
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:55,800
Speaker 2: but he tells us where he thinks the bodies might

658
00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 2: be buried. So when this happens, you then have to

659
00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 2: get a search warrant and you have to do a search.

660
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 2: Finding a body, even if it is in a basement,

661
00:33:04,360 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 2: is very hard to do. Throughout my career, I've been

662
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 2: extremely successful where I've been able to recover five bodies,

663
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,080
Speaker 2: but this is very hard to do. The area that

664
00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: he told us was in Marlboro, New York, and it

665
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 2: was at a recycling plant. That recycling plant had been rebuilt.

666
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 2: It was a very vast area. And this is in

667
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 2: December of nineteen ninety nine, probably December like fourteenth or so.

668
00:33:28,280 --> 00:33:31,360
Speaker 2: We start to do a search. We searched for three days.

669
00:33:31,480 --> 00:33:34,000
Speaker 2: We can't find any of the bodies up there. Again,

670
00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:36,400
Speaker 2: it's really really hard to find a body, and this

671
00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:40,840
Speaker 2: area was umongous. Also during this time period, personally, I'm

672
00:33:40,880 --> 00:33:43,640
Speaker 2: going through some tough things where my dad had gotten sick.

673
00:33:43,920 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: My dad was diagnosed with brain cancer in March of

674
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: ninety nine that year, and he was kind of at

675
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: the end. What happened was when we finished digging for

676
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 2: the bodies in Marlborough, New York. That night I went

677
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,480
Speaker 2: to go visit him. He was in a hospice home,

678
00:34:00,280 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 2: and my mom, who was very religious, she basically told

679
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:06,840
Speaker 2: me and my brother that we shouldn't leave, and she

680
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: had just a thought process that something might happen that night,

681
00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 2: and sure enough, we stayed and he passed that night.

682
00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 2: So all this is going on at the same time,

683
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:21,960
Speaker 2: arresting Anthony Capo, him flipping, my dad passing away, and

684
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 2: one of the eerie things that does happen, like two

685
00:34:24,880 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 2: days later when we have my dad's wake, is Anthony

686
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,400
Speaker 2: found out who we had moved to a different facility.

687
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:34,560
Speaker 2: Anthony found out that my dad passed, and he called

688
00:34:34,880 --> 00:34:36,960
Speaker 2: me while I was at the funeral home to offer

689
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 2: his condolences, which was very weird to me because just

690
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 2: two days earlier we were at a gravesite looking for

691
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:47,320
Speaker 2: bodies that he helped put there. So just very very odd.

692
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: But I was going through a lot at that particular time.

693
00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 1: I've said this on the show before. I've talked to

694
00:34:53,520 --> 00:34:56,400
Speaker 1: forensic psychologists because you know, I'll talk about serial killers

695
00:34:56,760 --> 00:34:58,960
Speaker 1: or murderers and I'll say, you know, they have no roles,

696
00:34:59,000 --> 00:35:00,840
Speaker 1: they have no ethics, and they say, of course they do.

697
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,479
Speaker 1: They're just not the ones you have or general society has.

698
00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:08,000
Speaker 1: They have boundaries, they have lines they won't cross, they

699
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,319
Speaker 1: have passions and all of this stuff. You just can't

700
00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:12,920
Speaker 1: relate to it necessarily. And that's what I was thinking

701
00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: the whole time with Kapo, was there's so much of

702
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:20,320
Speaker 1: that respect and you know, wanting to not be minimized

703
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:24,000
Speaker 1: or anything. And so I could absolutely, one hundred percent

704
00:35:24,080 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 1: see somebody like that wanting to respond to you with

705
00:35:27,000 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: like kindness. So it sounds like a really good approach.

706
00:35:30,880 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: And I do wonder if agents behind you end up

707
00:35:34,120 --> 00:35:36,000
Speaker 1: doing the same kind of thing, if they learn from that.

708
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:38,080
Speaker 2: I went on to run the Columbo squad and we

709
00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 2: were extremely successful there, and we'd dismantle that family too,

710
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 2: and we flipped a lot of people there as well,

711
00:35:45,160 --> 00:35:47,720
Speaker 2: so related to Anthony, we get him in the door

712
00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:49,719
Speaker 2: and again, as I said, this is the first mad

713
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 2: member we have, and then Anthony basically opens up the floodgates.

714
00:35:55,239 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 2: About three months later, as I said before, he reported

715
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:03,000
Speaker 2: to Vincent Palermo was the acting boss. Vincent Palermo is

716
00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:06,200
Speaker 2: a businessman. Vincent Palermo did a lot of his criminal

717
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: acts with Anthony. In March of two thousand, Vinnie decides

718
00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:13,760
Speaker 2: to cooperate. Now, as we talk about the show, Vinnie

719
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: had a strip club in Queen's called Wiggles. That's the

720
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,400
Speaker 2: real strip club as opposed to the one that's depicted

721
00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:20,879
Speaker 2: in the show.

722
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:25,360
Speaker 1: So who is Anthony Soprano? Was that Vinnie Palermo.

723
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 2: The real boss in the show would be Vincent Palermo.

724
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,359
Speaker 1: Okay, so did he have the same kind of conflicts,

725
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 1: family conflicts or anything.

726
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: He had family conflicts, but he would never go go

727
00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:38,240
Speaker 2: to a shrink to discuss them. That would never happen.

728
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:39,920
Speaker 2: That's just a plot they have in the show that

729
00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:42,799
Speaker 2: would never happen. The thing that's interesting in the show too,

730
00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: if you watched the first season, you have the boss

731
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:48,880
Speaker 2: dying of stomach cancer. The real boss dying of stomach cancer,

732
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,959
Speaker 2: even though, as we said before, the director didn't speak

733
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:55,960
Speaker 2: to anybody in real life. Jacob Mauri, who was the

734
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: acting boss, dies of stomach cancer in June of nineteen

735
00:36:59,440 --> 00:37:02,720
Speaker 2: ninety seven. That to me is just very ironic.

736
00:37:03,440 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 1: What is the expectation of Vinnie Palermo when somebody like

737
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,520
Speaker 1: Capo is arrested. Is the expectation that they're going to

738
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: let the mob attorneys take care of it, keep your

739
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:18,120
Speaker 1: mouth shut, will either try to get you out or

740
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:20,160
Speaker 1: you never say a word and nobody will shank you

741
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:20,720
Speaker 1: in prison.

742
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,560
Speaker 2: Well, Vinnie was arrested to that day. Oh yeah, so

743
00:37:23,640 --> 00:37:25,239
Speaker 2: he was one of the thirty nine people that was

744
00:37:25,280 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 2: locked up that day as well. So they expect everyone

745
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:30,760
Speaker 2: just to keep them outh shut, that's what they're expecting,

746
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 2: and just to do your time and to move on

747
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:35,560
Speaker 2: and hopefully we can beat this case or maybe get

748
00:37:35,600 --> 00:37:38,399
Speaker 2: to a juror so that the case gets thrown out

749
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: because they've gotten the juries before.

750
00:37:40,280 --> 00:37:42,480
Speaker 1: And Anthony and his attorney are not looking for some

751
00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: kind of a deal. What are they looking for and

752
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,320
Speaker 1: doing all of this, He's offering so much information.

753
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 2: They're looking for a reduction in their sentence and they're

754
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:51,239
Speaker 2: looking for a second chance at life, but.

755
00:37:51,200 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 1: They're he's going the opposite direction by, you know, admitting

756
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: all of these things. And you said this would have

757
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 1: all landed him life in prison when he how much

758
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,360
Speaker 1: would he have gotten if he had kept his mouth shut?

759
00:38:01,520 --> 00:38:04,040
Speaker 2: He could have been exposed to twenty years, twenty to

760
00:38:04,040 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 2: twenty five years? Okay, No, as I said, he's exposed

761
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,160
Speaker 2: himself to life, but he's rolling the dice and he's

762
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:12,440
Speaker 2: trusting me that he's going to get a reduction in

763
00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:13,040
Speaker 2: a sentence.

764
00:38:13,600 --> 00:38:17,520
Speaker 1: Is Benny aware that he's been moved? Does anybody suspect

765
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,440
Speaker 1: that Capo would be the one who would flip if anyone.

766
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,280
Speaker 2: Once we did the search wine up in Marlborough, New York,

767
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: and once word travels extremely quickly when you don't go

768
00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:30,080
Speaker 2: back to your prison cell. So then they knew Anthony

769
00:38:30,160 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 2: was cooperating. So that's why Benny cooperated. So as I said,

770
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:38,240
Speaker 2: Bennie cooperated in March of two thousand. Then a month later,

771
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:42,000
Speaker 2: a gentleman named Victor de Kierra cooperates. So now we

772
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:47,720
Speaker 2: have three people cooperating rather quickly, an associate, a panel boss,

773
00:38:48,040 --> 00:38:51,040
Speaker 2: and Anthony a soldier. And also Ralph. So we have

774
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 2: four total people as opposed to having no one in

775
00:38:53,800 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: one hundred years. We have four people rather quickly. So

776
00:38:56,719 --> 00:38:58,800
Speaker 2: what we do is we do the same thing. We

777
00:38:59,000 --> 00:39:01,920
Speaker 2: proffer and then you proffer, and that leads to a

778
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,200
Speaker 2: cooperation agreement. When you get to a cooperation agreement, you

779
00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,600
Speaker 2: have to plead guilty. You plead guilty to all your crimes,

780
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:13,280
Speaker 2: basically every crime you ever did. So when Anthony played guilty,

781
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:15,839
Speaker 2: he played guilty in June of two thousand that year.

782
00:39:16,400 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 2: He ended up pleading to two murders, eleven murder conspiracies,

783
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: and every crime that you could think of, So that

784
00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,759
Speaker 2: was his plea. Vinnie and Victor do the same thing.

785
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 2: So we take all their information and now we want

786
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:34,960
Speaker 2: to have a superseding indictment where we're going to go

787
00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 2: out and use all their information and arrest more people.

788
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:41,280
Speaker 2: And that's what we do. In October of two thousand.

789
00:39:41,520 --> 00:39:45,560
Speaker 2: We then arrest the official boss, the Consiglieri, a bunch

790
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,719
Speaker 2: of captains and soldiers who was known as the hierarchy.

791
00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 2: Arrest and from there that's when things get real real quickly.

792
00:39:53,640 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 2: Associated comes forward. His name is Frank Scarabino. His nickname

793
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:02,120
Speaker 2: was Frankie the Beast. Frankie the Beast comes forward and

794
00:40:02,280 --> 00:40:06,279
Speaker 2: says he wants to cooperate and that he's got the

795
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:11,720
Speaker 2: contract to kill Anthony Capo, to kill Anthony Capo's kids,

796
00:40:12,480 --> 00:40:15,839
Speaker 2: and to hurt law enforcement. So I always say, hard

797
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 2: work leads to good luck, thankfully. As you mentioned therefore,

798
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,319
Speaker 2: that some of these guys had boundaries. His boundary was

799
00:40:23,880 --> 00:40:26,840
Speaker 2: he wasn't going to hurt kids. That was the line

800
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:29,960
Speaker 2: for him. So he decided to come forward, and now

801
00:40:30,000 --> 00:40:32,399
Speaker 2: he wants to cooperate. So now we've got to move

802
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,640
Speaker 2: him and his family. So now we have five people

803
00:40:36,719 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 2: total in in the door, this spiral effect of cooperation

804
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 2: that Anthony has created for us. Then a month later

805
00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 2: we have a guy who was arrested in December of

806
00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,080
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety nine. His name is Thomas Detrah, who is

807
00:40:51,280 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 2: a mountain of a man. He sees that everyone is

808
00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: cooperating and he wants to cooperate. He's out on bail.

809
00:40:58,560 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 2: Remember I told you one of the two that started

810
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: us was Joseph Connigliero, the guy in the wheelchair that

811
00:41:03,280 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: got killed. Well, he is part of the conspiracy to

812
00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,760
Speaker 2: murder him, and he's trying to get out in front

813
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,400
Speaker 2: that he wants to cooperate because he's out on bail.

814
00:41:13,960 --> 00:41:17,640
Speaker 2: We decide let's get him to make a consensual recording.

815
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 2: What we do is we get everyone that's involved in

816
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:25,720
Speaker 2: the murder to kill Joseph Connigliero together, and Tommy Detore

817
00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,440
Speaker 2: is going to record them. It's probably the best recording

818
00:41:29,600 --> 00:41:32,560
Speaker 2: the FBI has, or one of the best, where he

819
00:41:32,600 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: gets everyone together and they talk about their role in

820
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 2: the murder. Now, as I said, Joseph Conigliero was in

821
00:41:38,800 --> 00:41:41,480
Speaker 2: a wheelchair. He had his car rigged where he could

822
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: actually drive it. So the shooter was a guy named

823
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: Martin Lewis. Martin Lewis is on tape saying I shot

824
00:41:48,600 --> 00:41:51,719
Speaker 2: him six times. I got out of the car and

825
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:57,360
Speaker 2: Joseph Connigliero pulled away, drove up the street, got to

826
00:41:57,440 --> 00:42:01,160
Speaker 2: a stop sign and put his blinker on and drove

827
00:42:01,239 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 2: himself to the hospital. This is all on tape. Now

828
00:42:04,600 --> 00:42:08,280
Speaker 2: there's another guy named Joseph Brightson. Joseph Brightson was another

829
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,920
Speaker 2: mountain of a man. They used to call Brightson and

830
00:42:11,000 --> 00:42:13,560
Speaker 2: Timy Detora at the Twin Towers because they were so big.

831
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:19,600
Speaker 2: So Joseph Conigileero stops at Joseph Brightson's house and beeps

832
00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,319
Speaker 2: the horn. Joseph Brightson thinks that Joseph Canigileero is dead.

833
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,480
Speaker 2: Can you imagine the look on his face when Joseph

834
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,680
Speaker 2: Connegileero beeps the horn for Joseph Brison to come downstairs.

835
00:42:30,040 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 2: Joseph Brison comes downstairs, jumps in the car and goes

836
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: to the hospital with him, and then Joseph Conagilero dies

837
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:41,360
Speaker 2: at the hospital. When he's at the hospital, Joseph Brightson

838
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: calls his cousin who's an NYPD detective, and unfortunately the

839
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:52,200
Speaker 2: detective goes through the car and removes all the case shells,

840
00:42:53,000 --> 00:42:55,200
Speaker 2: so now he's in the case. And again also this

841
00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,680
Speaker 2: is all on tape. It's probably one of the best

842
00:42:57,719 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 2: tapes ever. And for trial, all you have to do

843
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:01,080
Speaker 2: is press play.

844
00:43:01,400 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: What do you do with a cop who does that

845
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,920
Speaker 1: in prison? I mean, but police officers in prison already

846
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:07,759
Speaker 1: will have a hard time. Does he have to go

847
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:08,760
Speaker 1: in a special facility?

848
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:12,080
Speaker 2: Also, oh, he doesn't go in a special facility. And

849
00:43:12,120 --> 00:43:15,080
Speaker 2: he wasn't a very tall man. He ended up. You know,

850
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:17,439
Speaker 2: we can talk about the trials when we get there.

851
00:43:17,520 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 2: But he ended up going to trial, he got convicted,

852
00:43:20,640 --> 00:43:23,799
Speaker 2: and he got sentenced to thirteen years horrible and I'm

853
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,759
Speaker 2: sure his time was hard, you know what I mean. Yeah,

854
00:43:26,840 --> 00:43:30,719
Speaker 2: So we have this tape and then we do more

855
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,799
Speaker 2: arrest and then we actually have another arrest related to

856
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:39,600
Speaker 2: the leak. So we couldn't arrest the alleged court reporter

857
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: because we couldn't get any direct evidence that it was

858
00:43:43,520 --> 00:43:47,040
Speaker 2: the person was supplying the information. We could only get

859
00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 2: the evidence who got the information. So we ended up

860
00:43:50,800 --> 00:43:55,120
Speaker 2: arresting a Genevie's captain named Fritzy Giabnelli. So we arrested

861
00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 2: him in August of two thousand and one, and that

862
00:43:57,560 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 2: was right before nine to eleven. That the book talks

863
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 2: about my experiences through thro nine to eleven, which is

864
00:44:03,400 --> 00:44:07,400
Speaker 2: some crazy times there. And then after nine to eleven,

865
00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,960
Speaker 2: our investigations go silent for about four or five months

866
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:16,640
Speaker 2: where we have to divert all our resources to counter

867
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,359
Speaker 2: terrorism at that particular time, and then we slowly get

868
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 2: back to working organized crime, and we get back to

869
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 2: working organized crime. Then I start the trials. And what's

870
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 2: different between the state and the federal is when you're

871
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: in federal the agents actually sit at the trial, so

872
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 2: you're working hand in hand with the prosecutors. And trial

873
00:44:37,040 --> 00:44:39,640
Speaker 2: is the best experience because that's where you learn. You

874
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 2: learn all the mistakes that you made, but it's the

875
00:44:42,040 --> 00:44:45,240
Speaker 2: best experience. And it's twenty four to seven. You're prepping

876
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 2: for trial. You have trial during the day, then at

877
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: night you're going to work with the witness. It's constant.

878
00:44:51,239 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 2: And I was basically on trial from December two thousand

879
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:57,680
Speaker 2: and two up until November two thousand and three, where

880
00:44:57,719 --> 00:45:00,840
Speaker 2: I think during that time period for trial, so it

881
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 2: was just a year of no life whatsoever.

882
00:45:04,040 --> 00:45:06,640
Speaker 1: Do you have a lot of fears during this time period.

883
00:45:06,840 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: I mean you're hearing that you know there are contracts

884
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:12,720
Speaker 1: out to hurt law enforcement. You must have been scared

885
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:13,279
Speaker 1: at some point.

886
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 2: Well, you know you're used to threats, right, that's part

887
00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:18,640
Speaker 2: of the job. But yes, it's like when we first

888
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:20,600
Speaker 2: heard that there was a contract out on our head

889
00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 2: on law enforcement. Of course I'm concerned because I was

890
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 2: the handler for Anthony Kapolm. I'm the one that flipped them,

891
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,319
Speaker 2: so of course I'm concerned. As years went by, it's

892
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 2: like I ended up working them all for fifteen years.

893
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: There's actually a consensual recordings of them talking about me,

894
00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,720
Speaker 2: that I'm a decent guy, that I know what I'm doing,

895
00:45:37,960 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 2: and that I've always treated people with respect. You know,

896
00:45:40,880 --> 00:45:43,040
Speaker 2: if I had you, I had you, even if I

897
00:45:43,080 --> 00:45:45,759
Speaker 2: had you, but we didn't have it on tape. I

898
00:45:46,440 --> 00:45:48,840
Speaker 2: didn't have you then. But I've always treated them with respect,

899
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 2: and I think they actually saw that. So do I

900
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 2: fear for my life now now, you know. But back then,

901
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: when it first happened, here was a little concerned because

902
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 2: it's a jolt, you know what I mean. But you know,

903
00:45:59,200 --> 00:46:00,919
Speaker 2: because I worked them for so long, I think there's

904
00:46:00,920 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 2: a level of respect. And as I said, after this case,

905
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 2: I went on to work the Bananas and also the Columbos.

906
00:46:06,440 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 1: Can you use Anthony Capo as an example of how

907
00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,520
Speaker 1: you can look at someone who has done so many

908
00:46:12,600 --> 00:46:16,520
Speaker 1: awful things and somehow it doesn't sound like you were

909
00:46:16,560 --> 00:46:18,520
Speaker 1: acting when you were talking to him. I mean, I've

910
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:22,000
Speaker 1: read that you guys had some pretty personal exchanges, and

911
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 1: I'm interested in a little bit about what he told

912
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:27,160
Speaker 1: you about his life. And then, of course you know

913
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,319
Speaker 1: how your PABs could have been parallel, but they very

914
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,520
Speaker 1: clearly split off. So how do you humanize somebody like that?

915
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 2: Well, one thing that I learned is you kind of

916
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:41,799
Speaker 2: become a social worker a b. It's not up for

917
00:46:41,880 --> 00:46:44,880
Speaker 2: me to judge. I mean, it's like they'll be judged

918
00:46:44,880 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: by a higher power. And you know, it's a job.

919
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 2: I've heard horrible things, not just from Anthony, but for

920
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 2: all the witnesses that I've heard, and you know, you

921
00:46:54,280 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 2: don't know how they were raised. Right, Again, it's not

922
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,560
Speaker 2: up for me to judge. And I think that's the

923
00:46:58,600 --> 00:47:01,719
Speaker 2: biggest thing. And it's a job that I have to do.

924
00:47:02,000 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: Right that The whole thing is this is a job,

925
00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:07,000
Speaker 2: so and I have to get the job done. So

926
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 2: And one thing that I've always said too is a

927
00:47:09,520 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 2: happy witness is a good witness. And you'd be surprised

928
00:47:12,800 --> 00:47:17,120
Speaker 2: if you can make people feel comfortable and relaxed. They're

929
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:19,680
Speaker 2: more apt to tell you things if you as opposed

930
00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 2: to making them feel uptight or anxious.

931
00:47:22,600 --> 00:47:25,359
Speaker 1: Did he have regrets? Which, if he does, I have

932
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,400
Speaker 1: to think at least partially central on what he's putting

933
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 1: his wife and his kids through.

934
00:47:30,239 --> 00:47:33,000
Speaker 2: There is a murder I think I mentioned before. There's

935
00:47:33,040 --> 00:47:35,399
Speaker 2: the murderer of Fred Weiss. That's the gentleman that god

936
00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:39,760
Speaker 2: he wanted killed. So after that murder, his best friend

937
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 2: Joseph Garafano was part of that murder as well. Joseph Garafano.

938
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,960
Speaker 2: After that murder, sorry to say, because there was a

939
00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 2: lot of heat because they kind of botched that murder.

940
00:47:50,440 --> 00:47:53,319
Speaker 2: What Joey did was and I can't, for the life

941
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 2: of me think about why he did this, but Joey's

942
00:47:56,560 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 2: job was to steal plates from a car put it

943
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 2: on a stolen car. For some reason, he took plates

944
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 2: from Anthony Capo's wife's car. Very lazy thing to do,

945
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:10,840
Speaker 2: a very stupid thing to do. So after that murder,

946
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 2: there was a partial tag that was seen at the

947
00:48:13,360 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 2: crime scene. What they did is they killed him as

948
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:17,640
Speaker 2: soon they killed Fred Weiss as soon as he exited

949
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:22,000
Speaker 2: his apartment building, and Joey started talking saying, I'm not

950
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:25,040
Speaker 2: going to go down for this now, Anthony. He said

951
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 2: this to Anthony, and Anthony made the mistake of telling

952
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:32,799
Speaker 2: his captain, Anthony Rotundo this. So in essence, Anthony got

953
00:48:32,800 --> 00:48:35,799
Speaker 2: his best friend killed because they killed him. And that's

954
00:48:35,840 --> 00:48:39,839
Speaker 2: something that haunted Anthony years later, and it took him

955
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 2: probably two years for him to admit that to me,

956
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:44,960
Speaker 2: because I spent a lot of time with him, and

957
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 2: it took him about two years to actually admit that

958
00:48:48,360 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: he got his friend killed. And he used to tell

959
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 2: me that he would have nightmares about it. That's something

960
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:54,560
Speaker 2: that hit him pretty hard.

961
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: What about his wife and kids? I mean, I know

962
00:48:56,920 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 1: what happens. He moves to a different facility to keep himself.

963
00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 1: Do they go into witness security also? I mean the

964
00:49:03,040 --> 00:49:05,200
Speaker 1: impact on them must have been tremendous.

965
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 2: Well, when the threat happened, you know, I had to

966
00:49:08,080 --> 00:49:10,920
Speaker 2: go up there and tell Anthony that, and that was

967
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 2: a very difficult thing to do because you had to

968
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:16,799
Speaker 2: put yourself in hissues. He's defenseless, so he's looking to

969
00:49:16,840 --> 00:49:18,840
Speaker 2: me to protect his family. I was put in a

970
00:49:18,920 --> 00:49:22,960
Speaker 2: very tough spot because his wife refused to move. So

971
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: it's kind of hard for me to protect her when

972
00:49:24,760 --> 00:49:25,880
Speaker 2: she's refusing.

973
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: To move and she's in Staten Island? Is that right?

974
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:30,880
Speaker 2: Stetton Island. Now, they were having problems and they ultimately

975
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,479
Speaker 2: got divorced. Still, I'm concerned about her safety, but there's

976
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,839
Speaker 2: only so much I can possibly do. So we went

977
00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 2: we spoke to her, you know, try to get her

978
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:41,319
Speaker 2: to go into the program. She refused to do that.

979
00:49:41,640 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 2: Offered her money to relocate. Initially she said no. Then finally,

980
00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:50,520
Speaker 2: you know, after urging her over and over again to relocate,

981
00:49:51,040 --> 00:49:55,240
Speaker 2: she relocated. But she relocated from one endo Staten Island

982
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,880
Speaker 2: to the next, which really is not a relocation, but

983
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:02,000
Speaker 2: she did. But yeah, it made my life very hard

984
00:50:02,080 --> 00:50:06,080
Speaker 2: because she wouldn't relocate. Thankfully, nothing ever happened, but you know,

985
00:50:06,160 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 2: it was very scary, and I felt bad for Anthony

986
00:50:08,600 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 2: because he was defenseless. Even though they were having problems,

987
00:50:11,840 --> 00:50:15,640
Speaker 2: He's still concerned about her and her kids. And thankfully

988
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: nothing ever happened. Is like, the main thing is.

989
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,440
Speaker 1: There anyway some of the members of these families, the

990
00:50:22,480 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 1: actual families, biological families or whatever, don't know what their

991
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 1: husbands and fathers and grandfathers are doing for a living.

992
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 2: Yes, really, I've had that a couple of times. When

993
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:38,160
Speaker 2: I worked the Columbos, we had a proactive witness and

994
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:41,120
Speaker 2: we had to abruptly take him off the street. He

995
00:50:41,160 --> 00:50:44,480
Speaker 2: made tapes for us for quite some time, and an

996
00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 2: event happened where he was the guy who actually intervened

997
00:50:48,640 --> 00:50:50,920
Speaker 2: where someone was going to get killed. They were going

998
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:53,919
Speaker 2: to kill these two kids, and the mob guys had

999
00:50:53,920 --> 00:50:56,200
Speaker 2: guns in their mouths and they were going to kill them,

1000
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:58,200
Speaker 2: and he happened to be there with a recording device

1001
00:50:58,560 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 2: and he was a decent sized guy, and he stepped

1002
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:03,160
Speaker 2: in and he kind of beat the crap out of

1003
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:06,279
Speaker 2: the two kids. Saved their lives, really, but as a

1004
00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,040
Speaker 2: result of that, we had to shut down the case,

1005
00:51:08,719 --> 00:51:11,520
Speaker 2: and he owned the night club, and we had to

1006
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:13,279
Speaker 2: break the news to him. He didn't even know. We

1007
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:14,960
Speaker 2: went to the nightclub at like four o'clock in the

1008
00:51:15,000 --> 00:51:18,120
Speaker 2: morning and said, Okay, it's over. We have to shut

1009
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:20,880
Speaker 2: this down. And he had never told his wife anything.

1010
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:24,520
Speaker 2: So just imagine four or five o'clock in the morning

1011
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,560
Speaker 2: going back to his house with him and us telling

1012
00:51:27,760 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 2: her a pack your bags, we're moving right now, and

1013
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 2: her just being totally shocked at the whole thing. It

1014
00:51:34,760 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 2: has happened before. At the end of the day, I

1015
00:51:37,800 --> 00:51:42,960
Speaker 2: think we convicted seventy one people, eleven murders were solved,

1016
00:51:43,520 --> 00:51:47,760
Speaker 2: seven trials. And what's interesting is, as I said, during

1017
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 2: this short, little time period, we had seven people that cooperated,

1018
00:51:53,320 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: ranging from associate soldier, captain, acting boss. And since that

1019
00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 2: time period, no one else has cooperated. No other made

1020
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,320
Speaker 2: member and that family has cooperated. So we're at twenty

1021
00:52:06,360 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: five years plus since that happened, and for trial purposes,

1022
00:52:10,520 --> 00:52:13,840
Speaker 2: it was great in the sense is at that particular

1023
00:52:13,880 --> 00:52:16,440
Speaker 2: point in time, it was the first time that we

1024
00:52:16,440 --> 00:52:19,400
Speaker 2: were able to put a structure of a family to

1025
00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:23,000
Speaker 2: testify against their own family. Whereas I said, we could

1026
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:26,439
Speaker 2: put an associate, a soldier, a captain, and boss up

1027
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: from the same family testifying and against their family. And

1028
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 2: people come to me and they say, why did you

1029
00:52:31,920 --> 00:52:35,120
Speaker 2: write the book? And you know, there's a couple of reasons.

1030
00:52:35,360 --> 00:52:37,239
Speaker 2: First of all, I was approached and I was very

1031
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:39,320
Speaker 2: blessed to have a great career. When I tell people

1032
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: all the time, it's not just me, it's when you

1033
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:45,319
Speaker 2: work organized crime, it's always a team. It's always a

1034
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 2: team of people. So I've had great partners, mentors, supervisors,

1035
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 2: and just great squads. And when they approached me and

1036
00:52:52,880 --> 00:52:55,080
Speaker 2: they heard my story, they were like, this is not

1037
00:52:55,200 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: one book. This is two books. So this is just

1038
00:52:57,520 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: the first part of my career. We'll see if I

1039
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,120
Speaker 2: have the energy to write a second one. The thing is,

1040
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 2: as I mentioned before, this squad CEE ten we got

1041
00:53:06,400 --> 00:53:09,880
Speaker 2: tremendous press because we basically dismantled two families at the

1042
00:53:09,920 --> 00:53:13,920
Speaker 2: same time, the Banano family plus the Dicalbalcanti family. They

1043
00:53:13,920 --> 00:53:17,680
Speaker 2: were such a young group of selfless agents that just

1044
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,480
Speaker 2: had each other's back. We got tremendous press. The press

1045
00:53:21,600 --> 00:53:23,800
Speaker 2: never put it together that it was the same squad.

1046
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:26,720
Speaker 2: It was so funny where we were in the paper

1047
00:53:26,840 --> 00:53:29,960
Speaker 2: daily from two sides of the fence, and they just

1048
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: never put it together. So this is one way to

1049
00:53:32,000 --> 00:53:35,000
Speaker 2: get that out there. And then lastly, I don't know

1050
00:53:35,080 --> 00:53:38,719
Speaker 2: the relationship that Anthony had with his kids, and I

1051
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:41,359
Speaker 2: just hope that by reading this book they see all

1052
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:45,120
Speaker 2: the good that he did. Anthony testified for me seven times.

1053
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:49,960
Speaker 2: He actually became like a professional witness where he enjoyed this.

1054
00:53:50,800 --> 00:53:53,200
Speaker 2: He loved the banter and he was good at it.

1055
00:53:53,320 --> 00:53:56,040
Speaker 2: And for someone that prior to being locked up, he

1056
00:53:56,120 --> 00:53:58,080
Speaker 2: never worked really a day in his life, he was

1057
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:00,920
Speaker 2: always trying to scam. When he went into the witness

1058
00:54:00,960 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: security program, he used to always say he wanted to

1059
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,480
Speaker 2: be a success story for me, and I would tell him,

1060
00:54:05,480 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 2: don't be a Suxcis story for me, be a success

1061
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:10,799
Speaker 2: story for yourself. He worked hard and he really did

1062
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,719
Speaker 2: change his life around and he tried to make the

1063
00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:18,040
Speaker 2: best of that second chance. So hopefully his kids, you know,

1064
00:54:18,680 --> 00:54:21,279
Speaker 2: years later now, can actually see that he did do

1065
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:24,920
Speaker 2: some good. Yes, he did heinous acts and I do

1066
00:54:25,040 --> 00:54:27,520
Speaker 2: not condone those at all, and I feel horrible for

1067
00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:30,839
Speaker 2: the victims. But he did turn his life around and

1068
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: he did do some good.

1069
00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: Well, tell me, aside from testifying for you so much

1070
00:54:35,280 --> 00:54:37,200
Speaker 1: and giving you a lot of information, tell me the

1071
00:54:37,200 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: way the rest of his life goes. Once the dust

1072
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,719
Speaker 1: is settled and you have the seventy one convictions, is

1073
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,319
Speaker 1: that what it was? Yeah, once you have these convictions

1074
00:54:46,360 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 1: and then you're moving on to the Columbo and wherever else?

1075
00:54:50,520 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: What happens with Anthony?

1076
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,600
Speaker 2: All right? So basically Anthony does get bail. He did

1077
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,080
Speaker 2: about four years in jail, and people are always of

1078
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:01,840
Speaker 2: this mindset that they go into the witness security program.

1079
00:55:02,080 --> 00:55:05,840
Speaker 2: There are jails throughout the United States. There are roughly

1080
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:09,400
Speaker 2: seven jails. I can't say where they are, but people

1081
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:13,280
Speaker 2: go to jail first. So Anthony actually went to jail

1082
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:15,880
Speaker 2: for four years and then he got bail, and then

1083
00:55:15,920 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 2: he went into the witness Security program. That's called Phase two.

1084
00:55:19,840 --> 00:55:22,160
Speaker 2: Phase two of the Winness Security program. As I said before,

1085
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,160
Speaker 2: it's run by the US Marshall Service. That's when you

1086
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 2: get your fake ID, like your licensed Social Security number passport.

1087
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,719
Speaker 2: And he went in there and he became a car salesman.

1088
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,080
Speaker 2: I used to always joke that he could sell steamshit

1089
00:55:35,200 --> 00:55:38,399
Speaker 2: to a blind man because he had because he had

1090
00:55:38,440 --> 00:55:41,640
Speaker 2: the gift of the gap. So he did really well there.

1091
00:55:41,800 --> 00:55:43,879
Speaker 2: But he did have some health issues. You know, he

1092
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,440
Speaker 2: was a bad diabetic, and you know, I think he

1093
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: lost some toes throughout his life there. But he did

1094
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:52,680
Speaker 2: try to make the best of his second life.

1095
00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:54,960
Speaker 1: Okay. Now he ended up dying.

1096
00:55:54,880 --> 00:55:55,879
Speaker 2: A couple of years ago.

1097
00:55:55,960 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, hey did it?

1098
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:57,040
Speaker 2: Okay?

1099
00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:00,160
Speaker 1: Now, is there anybody else of note that had an

1100
00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,600
Speaker 1: interesting time once they either testified or took complete deal

1101
00:56:04,680 --> 00:56:05,360
Speaker 1: or whatever it was.

1102
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,920
Speaker 2: There was another witness, Anthony Rotundo. Anthon Rotundo testified me

1103
00:56:09,080 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 2: for seven times as well. Anthony Rotundo actually went to college.

1104
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,880
Speaker 2: I shouldn't rephrase that he graduated college. Anyone can go

1105
00:56:17,120 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 2: and can go to college. He actually, yeah, had to

1106
00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:22,880
Speaker 2: graduate college, and so he was a great witness for

1107
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:25,319
Speaker 2: us as well. It's funny. What I try to do

1108
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,880
Speaker 2: with the book is I tried to reach out to

1109
00:56:27,920 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 2: all the witnesses ahead of time to let them know.

1110
00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,279
Speaker 2: And Frank Scarabino, the one who had the contract to

1111
00:56:33,360 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 2: kill Kapito and his family and also basically to kill me,

1112
00:56:36,840 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 2: I couldn't get a hold of him, and sure enough,

1113
00:56:39,360 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 2: I'm not on any type of Instagram and things like that,

1114
00:56:43,640 --> 00:56:46,440
Speaker 2: but he contacted me through LinkedIn.

1115
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,360
Speaker 1: Did that to scare the shit out of you? That

1116
00:56:49,360 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: would have scared me to death.

1117
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:53,799
Speaker 2: So we were able to connect through LinkedIn with his

1118
00:56:53,840 --> 00:56:57,120
Speaker 2: new name, and you know, he was already supportive of

1119
00:56:57,160 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 2: like the book, and I told him, I said, I

1120
00:56:58,680 --> 00:57:00,400
Speaker 2: tried to reach out to you the old that I

1121
00:57:00,440 --> 00:57:02,920
Speaker 2: had for you. So it's it's nice to reconnect with

1122
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,919
Speaker 2: him again. But he but he's doing well too. He's

1123
00:57:06,040 --> 00:57:08,719
Speaker 2: made the most of his second life. And as we

1124
00:57:08,840 --> 00:57:12,440
Speaker 2: talked about before, his wife knew nothing at all about

1125
00:57:12,440 --> 00:57:18,240
Speaker 2: his about his life too. Benny actually moved down to Texas,

1126
00:57:18,280 --> 00:57:22,720
Speaker 2: I believe, and there was a reporter who went down

1127
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,480
Speaker 2: there and basically knocked on his front door, and I

1128
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:28,680
Speaker 2: think it was in the paper. So Benny really didn't

1129
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: change like his ways. He I think went right back

1130
00:57:31,320 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 2: into the same type of business that he had before.

1131
00:57:33,320 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 1: You've spent so much time reading about these guys, interviewing

1132
00:57:36,280 --> 00:57:39,000
Speaker 1: these guys, knowing about the crimes. Has there been any

1133
00:57:39,080 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 1: kind of an evolution between when you started working these

1134
00:57:44,400 --> 00:57:49,040
Speaker 1: mafia mob cases until now? Have they, you know, diversified

1135
00:57:49,200 --> 00:57:51,520
Speaker 1: or is this Do they have the same control on

1136
00:57:51,680 --> 00:57:53,840
Speaker 1: in New Jersey and New York that they once had?

1137
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: Is a structure any different?

1138
00:57:55,360 --> 00:57:59,560
Speaker 2: Well, I think from a cooperation standpoint, I think Anthony

1139
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:02,400
Speaker 2: opened up the floodgates. I'll start there in the sense

1140
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,440
Speaker 2: is you know, if you look at the history of

1141
00:58:05,600 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 2: cooperation you had Sammy the Bull started in nineteen ninety one,

1142
00:58:10,040 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: Al Di Orco was behind him, and from ninety two

1143
00:58:12,560 --> 00:58:14,680
Speaker 2: to ninety nine there was really no there was no

1144
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:18,440
Speaker 2: one that had tried to cooperate. Anthony started that and

1145
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 2: then after that, you know, between the Bananas and the DeCavalcantes,

1146
00:58:22,440 --> 00:58:25,360
Speaker 2: it just became the floodgates. Then after I was finished

1147
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,120
Speaker 2: this case, I went down to the Columbo squad and

1148
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 2: we were extremely successful there. You know, I think the

1149
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:34,280
Speaker 2: highlights of that was in January of twenty eleven, I

1150
00:58:34,320 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 2: spearheaded the largest FBI arrest ever against the mob, where

1151
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 2: we arrested one hundred and twenty seven people, and then

1152
00:58:40,560 --> 00:58:43,280
Speaker 2: I ended my career as a supervisor where we had

1153
00:58:43,520 --> 00:58:46,160
Speaker 2: a dig related to the Good to the Goodfellow's movie

1154
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:50,760
Speaker 2: in June of twenty thirteen. So I think cooperation has

1155
00:58:50,760 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 2: started to become the norm. Related to your question on rackets,

1156
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: though you know even recently you've had arrest, the Mob

1157
00:58:58,360 --> 00:59:00,560
Speaker 2: has been around for one hundred and twenty five years.

1158
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 2: They're not going to go away. It's like they hated

1159
00:59:03,520 --> 00:59:06,760
Speaker 2: Gotty because Gotti was so flashy. They're supposed to be

1160
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 2: under the radar. So the rackets of sports betting and

1161
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 2: trying to gamble, they're going to be around forever. The

1162
00:59:14,440 --> 00:59:17,920
Speaker 2: extortions of unions, that's going to be around, it's always

1163
00:59:17,960 --> 00:59:21,000
Speaker 2: going to be around. You know. What they're starting to

1164
00:59:21,040 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 2: get into is technology though, right, that's what and also

1165
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 2: the crypto, So these are things you have to watch for, right,

1166
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:29,560
Speaker 2: But they're going to evolve. There's a lot of smart

1167
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 2: people that work in the MOB, right, so they're always

1168
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 2: going to try to adapt, and that's what the Bureau

1169
00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 2: always has to keep the resources on them because if

1170
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 2: they don't keep their eye on them, they're going to rebuild.

1171
00:59:39,960 --> 00:59:41,920
Speaker 2: It's like the Bureau has done a great job the

1172
00:59:41,960 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 2: last twenty years of really trying to decimate them. But

1173
00:59:46,240 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 2: the mob is always going to rebuild. They've been around forever.

1174
00:59:49,080 --> 00:59:52,080
Speaker 1: Are there still four or five main families or are

1175
00:59:52,120 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: there more factions than that?

1176
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,640
Speaker 2: Yes, there's still the five main families in New York.

1177
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:59,920
Speaker 2: You still have the Jersey family. You know, they're not

1178
01:00:00,080 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 2: going to go away. They're always going to be be there,

1179
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:05,120
Speaker 2: you know, and I don't think they're as strong as

1180
01:00:05,160 --> 01:00:07,560
Speaker 2: they were, but they're not going to go away though.

1181
01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:10,600
Speaker 1: Okay, for you, you were tired and then you moved

1182
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:13,040
Speaker 1: on to a different job and all of that. What's

1183
01:00:13,080 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 1: the biggest lesson you think you've learned from all of this? Again,

1184
01:00:16,600 --> 01:00:18,720
Speaker 1: if I were your mother, I would have been terrified

1185
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:21,200
Speaker 1: for the more than a decade or two that you

1186
01:00:21,280 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 1: worked under this specific thing. My grandmother was always terrified

1187
01:00:26,240 --> 01:00:29,080
Speaker 1: because her son was ahead of swat here in Austin

1188
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: and she just was the worst thing ever, But she

1189
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:32,760
Speaker 1: was so proud of him.

1190
01:00:33,200 --> 01:00:36,280
Speaker 2: Well, even in my current job, I give safety tip training,

1191
01:00:36,320 --> 01:00:38,720
Speaker 2: I give active shooter training. I just tell people all

1192
01:00:38,760 --> 01:00:41,520
Speaker 2: the time, be a be aware of your surroundings, at

1193
01:00:41,520 --> 01:00:45,360
Speaker 2: all times. You know, I think, just generally speaking, people

1194
01:00:45,440 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 2: are addicted to their phone, and it just it annoys me,

1195
01:00:48,840 --> 01:00:51,520
Speaker 2: especially when I'm walking down the street in New York City,

1196
01:00:51,600 --> 01:00:55,040
Speaker 2: how people are just glued to their phone. You make

1197
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:59,040
Speaker 2: yourself vulnerable. It's like pay attention. It's like you look

1198
01:00:59,120 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 2: like you're easy. So just be aware of your surroundings

1199
01:01:02,120 --> 01:01:04,920
Speaker 2: at all times. Don't make yourself look like a victim.

1200
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,520
Speaker 2: And I constantly say, just try to say that to people.

1201
01:01:08,040 --> 01:01:11,440
Speaker 1: So you made history right as an FBI agent. And

1202
01:01:11,520 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 1: it all started with a handful of chocolates and some

1203
01:01:14,240 --> 01:01:17,520
Speaker 1: orange juice and showing someone who it seems like much

1204
01:01:17,560 --> 01:01:19,920
Speaker 1: of his life is based on trying to get respect.

1205
01:01:20,240 --> 01:01:22,720
Speaker 1: You give him that respect, and it seemed I know

1206
01:01:22,760 --> 01:01:24,360
Speaker 1: you did a lot of hard work, but to start

1207
01:01:24,440 --> 01:01:26,840
Speaker 1: there and for it to be so successful so quickly,

1208
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:27,920
Speaker 1: you know, it was amazing.

1209
01:01:28,320 --> 01:01:30,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the stars were just the line. As

1210
01:01:30,160 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 2: I said, you know, when I got to that surveillance squad,

1211
01:01:32,880 --> 01:01:36,240
Speaker 2: I was very lucky there. And then during that rotational

1212
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 2: process when you're a new agent, I just tried to

1213
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 2: volunteer as much as I could. I went to the

1214
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:43,720
Speaker 2: head of the organized crime branch and just try to

1215
01:01:43,760 --> 01:01:46,480
Speaker 2: sell myself and all you have in the bureau is

1216
01:01:47,040 --> 01:01:50,720
Speaker 2: the reputation that you try to build. And thankfully they

1217
01:01:50,880 --> 01:01:53,000
Speaker 2: just just gave me a shot and I just made

1218
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,440
Speaker 2: the most of that. I was blessed to get. You know,

1219
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:59,480
Speaker 2: have George Hannah as my mentor, and I just became

1220
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,880
Speaker 2: a spun and I'm still friends with Hin till today,

1221
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:05,400
Speaker 2: and you know, I all a lot to him. And

1222
01:02:06,000 --> 01:02:07,840
Speaker 2: as I said, I just was blessed to work with

1223
01:02:07,880 --> 01:02:22,600
Speaker 2: some great people. And it's always about about like the team.

1224
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

1225
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,640
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners, All About the

1226
01:02:28,680 --> 01:02:31,840
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

1227
01:02:31,920 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: Don't Forget There are twelve seasons of my historical true

1228
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:39,720
Speaker 1: crime podcast, Tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

1229
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

1230
01:02:43,120 --> 01:02:46,600
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

1231
01:02:46,720 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 1: is Alexis M. Morosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain.

1232
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:55,080
Speaker 1: This episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is

1233
01:02:55,120 --> 01:02:59,880
Speaker 1: our composer. Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hartstar,

1234
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 1: Karen Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram

1235
01:03:04,320 --> 01:03:07,880
Speaker 1: and Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at

1236
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:10,600
Speaker 1: tenfold more. And if you know of a historical crime

1237
01:03:10,600 --> 01:03:13,200
Speaker 1: that could use some attention from the crew at tenfold

1238
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: more Wicked, email us at info at tenfoldmorewicked dot com.

1239
01:03:17,920 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: We'll also take your suggestions for true crime authors for

1240
01:03:21,080 --> 01:03:21,880
Speaker 1: Wicked Words