1 00:00:03,120 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:10,080 --> 00:00:11,879 Speaker 2: I hope you don't get nervous because you've got a 3 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 2: lot of people listening to you right now, like sixty 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:18,000 Speaker 2: million or something. What is that number? It's crazy, it's 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:20,479 Speaker 2: amazing how you can see that right away. 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 3: How many? What is the number? Wow? 7 00:00:24,720 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 4: What is it? 8 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:27,200 Speaker 5: Well? 9 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 2: I think that's a big that's bigger than you said. 10 00:00:31,680 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 2: You said twenty five and you're more than much more 11 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 2: than double that number twenty five million. I think you're 12 00:00:36,280 --> 00:00:38,360 Speaker 2: going to be sixty or seventy. And I guess over 13 00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,839 Speaker 2: a period of time. Hey, that's I congratulate you. Do 14 00:00:41,920 --> 00:00:43,200 Speaker 2: I get paid for this or not? 15 00:00:48,479 --> 00:00:49,519 Speaker 1: Well, Elon Musk is. 16 00:00:49,520 --> 00:00:51,440 Speaker 6: Now the richest person on the planet. 17 00:00:51,720 --> 00:00:54,600 Speaker 7: More than half the satellites in space are owned and 18 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:56,400 Speaker 7: controlled by one man. 19 00:00:57,040 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 3: Well, he's a legitimate super genius. I mean legitimate. 20 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:00,560 Speaker 4: He says. 21 00:01:00,560 --> 00:01:03,200 Speaker 1: He's always voted for Democrats, but this year it will 22 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:03,640 Speaker 1: be different. 23 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:04,679 Speaker 8: He'll vote Republican. 24 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,399 Speaker 5: There is a reason the US government is so reliant 25 00:01:07,440 --> 00:01:07,800 Speaker 5: on him. 26 00:01:08,000 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 4: Elon Musk is a scam artist and he's done nothing. 27 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,919 Speaker 9: Anything he does he is fascinating people. 28 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:29,119 Speaker 8: Welcome to Elon Ink, Bloomberg's weekly podcast about Elon Musk. 29 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 8: It's Tuesday, August thirteenth. I'm your host David Papadopoulos. This 30 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 8: week will continue our summer series with a conversation on 31 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:41,960 Speaker 8: Elon's business ventures in China. But first, yesterday, arguably the 32 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:45,400 Speaker 8: most influential politician of the past decade sat down with 33 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 8: arguably the most influential businessman of the past decade for 34 00:01:48,880 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 8: a chat, and the result was well, Trump Muskian, a 35 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 8: little glitchy, a little meandering, very edgy, and weighing in 36 00:01:59,480 --> 00:02:04,240 Speaker 8: at two plus hours, very long. The two men have 37 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 8: had an on again, off again relationship for a long time, 38 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 8: though it's never been more on than it is now. 39 00:02:10,440 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 8: What with Musk's endorsement of Donald Trump last month and 40 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,680 Speaker 8: his multimillion dollar campaign donation commitment, this joint ex appearance 41 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:23,240 Speaker 8: begs a question, though, have we reached peak Elon and Donald? 42 00:02:23,560 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 8: To help me sort through this, I'm joined by two 43 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:29,919 Speaker 8: of our regulars, Max Kapkin, BusinessWeek writer lo Max Hey 44 00:02:30,000 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 8: David and Dana Hall, our top muscologist here at Bloomberg. 45 00:02:34,680 --> 00:02:35,959 Speaker 4: Hey, Dana, good afternoon. 46 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,960 Speaker 8: Okay, listen, So before I ask YouTube for your biggest 47 00:02:39,960 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 8: takeaways from this, I'm gonna tell you mine, which is 48 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 8: you know, Max, it's not easy being a podcast host, okay, 49 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 8: and herding the cats and steering the conversation. There were 50 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,720 Speaker 8: moments as I was listening to Elon get run over 51 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 8: again and again by Trump, I felt like, you know, 52 00:02:54,840 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 8: this is me trying to corral you as you were 53 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 8: going off on some conspiracy theory. 54 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 6: It was kind of painful, especially during the first I 55 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 6: can't believe what I'm saying this forty minutes or so, when 56 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 6: Elon really struggled to get a word in edgewise, where 57 00:03:10,520 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 6: he kept, you know, trying like a great, good host, 58 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 6: trying to direct the conversation to maybe to matters of 59 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,600 Speaker 6: policy or really to anything else that you wouldn't hear 60 00:03:19,639 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 6: in a Trump rally, and Trump really steadfastly refused, and 61 00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 6: the effect was what felt like, essentially a sort of 62 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 6: unplugged version of a Trump rally with Elon Musk sitting 63 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:33,720 Speaker 6: there on stage with him and Dana. 64 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 8: So even before those first forty forty five minutes that 65 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 8: Max is referring to, there was a long period of 66 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 8: time where there were just glitches and delays and nothing happened. 67 00:03:44,120 --> 00:03:44,520 Speaker 3: Is that right? 68 00:03:45,480 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean a lot of people had trouble accessing 69 00:03:47,720 --> 00:03:49,880 Speaker 1: the space, and then Musk tweeted out that they were 70 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: under a d DOOS attack, which there's no real, like 71 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:56,400 Speaker 1: verifiable proof that that's what happened, and then I think 72 00:03:56,440 --> 00:03:59,280 Speaker 1: this morning he tweeted out that they actually had some 73 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:03,440 Speaker 1: internal issue as well, But ultimately it got sorted. At 74 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: the peak, I think one point three million people were listening, 75 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,280 Speaker 1: which is like a good number, but it was very 76 00:04:09,360 --> 00:04:11,920 Speaker 1: much like in the beginning, it felt like DeSantis Rollout 77 00:04:11,920 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: two point zero, where you couldn't figure out, like is 78 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 1: this ever gonna work? Am I going to hear anything 79 00:04:16,920 --> 00:04:20,919 Speaker 1: besides this awful techno music? Our music? And then it 80 00:04:20,920 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 1: got underway and it was a really late you know, 81 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,839 Speaker 1: it was just a really late night where Yeah, to 82 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:29,480 Speaker 1: Max's point, like what I thought was funny was Elon 83 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: kept trying to shift the conversation to his favorite topic. 84 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:34,719 Speaker 1: We're both the victims of like runn am UK law 85 00:04:34,800 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: fair and like Trump was. 86 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: Not having it. 87 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 8: How do we square those numbers a one point three 88 00:04:40,040 --> 00:04:45,279 Speaker 8: million listeners or with this eeks that Musk sent out 89 00:04:45,320 --> 00:04:48,360 Speaker 8: this morning saying engagement was roughly one billion. 90 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,440 Speaker 6: Yes, I think we heard some of the difficulty in 91 00:04:51,480 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 6: squaring that in the in the clip we played at 92 00:04:53,160 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 6: the top of the show, where you know, Trump is saying, oh, 93 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:58,040 Speaker 6: there's something like sixty million people, and there's this awkward, 94 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 6: pregnant pause, almost as if no in the room wants 95 00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:02,560 Speaker 6: to dispute it, even. 96 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 4: Though it's not entirely true. 97 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,200 Speaker 6: So these these very large numbers refer to people who 98 00:05:07,240 --> 00:05:11,800 Speaker 6: have like seen a mention of this Twitter space. It's 99 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 6: a very very expansive definition of an audience. And I 100 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:19,400 Speaker 6: will say, you know, one point three the number that 101 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 6: Dana mentioned at the high point one point one at 102 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,719 Speaker 6: the time that of that clip that we just played, 103 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 6: that's a big audience. That's a big audience. Is much 104 00:05:27,520 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 6: bigger than the Ron de Santis live stream. For x 105 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:34,960 Speaker 6: it's large. For cable news, it's nothing. I mean, Fox 106 00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 6: News does basically three times that, like on a Wednesday night. 107 00:05:39,080 --> 00:05:42,400 Speaker 6: So this is a real opportunity for Trump to reach 108 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:46,559 Speaker 6: Elon Musk, a powerful and wealthy billionaire, somebody who could 109 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:48,280 Speaker 6: theoretically donate even. 110 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:49,320 Speaker 4: More to his campaign as he has. 111 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,240 Speaker 6: Musk has a lot of followers, But this was not 112 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 6: if he had hoped this to be like a big 113 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:56,560 Speaker 6: mass market play that's not what he's getting here. 114 00:05:57,200 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 8: Musk did seem, as we were saying initially here, he 115 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:03,760 Speaker 8: did seem fairly deferential threat And was that always the 116 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 8: way this was going to be, that he was going 117 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 8: to have to kowtow to Trump. 118 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: I mean one hundred percent, Like listen, I want to 119 00:06:09,200 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: push back on the notion that this was an interview 120 00:06:11,440 --> 00:06:15,239 Speaker 1: or a conversation. This was a campaign event. Musk started 121 00:06:15,240 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: a pack to help Trump get elected. Trump's campaign has 122 00:06:19,560 --> 00:06:22,560 Speaker 1: been in the doldrums ever since Kamala Harris became the nominee. 123 00:06:22,600 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: They need something to turn it around. This is free media. 124 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: Musk is using the platform that he owns to give 125 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: Trump this free media. I mean, he was trying out 126 00:06:30,680 --> 00:06:34,640 Speaker 1: these new attack lines on Kamala Harris. Musk was twortling away. 127 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:37,599 Speaker 1: Like at one point, Elon kind of like intervened and 128 00:06:37,720 --> 00:06:39,760 Speaker 1: was sort of like, well, climate change is real. But 129 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: like there it was a very differential conversation. And the 130 00:06:42,839 --> 00:06:45,600 Speaker 1: funniest thing was when Musk was basically pitching a job 131 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 1: for himself in a Trump two point zero administration. 132 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 9: I think it'd be great to just have a government 133 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:53,240 Speaker 9: efficiency commission that takes a look at these things and 134 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:58,800 Speaker 9: just ensures that the taxpayer money, the taxpayers are harder 135 00:06:59,000 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 9: money is spent a good way. And I'd be happy 136 00:07:02,440 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 9: to help out on such a commission. 137 00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,400 Speaker 2: I'd love Well, you you're the greatest cutter. I mean, 138 00:07:07,440 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: I look at. 139 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:08,360 Speaker 3: What you do. 140 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 4: You walk in, you want to quit. 141 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:12,119 Speaker 3: They go on strike. 142 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:14,160 Speaker 2: I won't mention the name of the company, but they 143 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 2: go on strike and use it. 144 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:16,600 Speaker 3: That's okay. You're all gone. 145 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,160 Speaker 2: You're all gone, So every one of you is gone, 146 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 2: and you are the greatest. 147 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 3: You would be very good. 148 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 2: Oh, you would love it. 149 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,560 Speaker 4: I feel like so much to unpack there. 150 00:07:24,760 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 6: I mean, first of all, must doing Trump no favors 151 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 6: with the potential union vote, which he has tried to 152 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 6: court at times. 153 00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 4: But then also like this job. 154 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 6: First of all, I think we should take what Elon 155 00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,120 Speaker 6: is saying seriously because maybe there's a strategy here. But 156 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 6: you got to say, like he's pitching like the kind 157 00:07:41,880 --> 00:07:45,120 Speaker 6: of job that a billionaire really doesn't want. Like he's 158 00:07:45,160 --> 00:07:48,440 Speaker 6: not pitching himself for Secretary of State, Secretary of Treasury, 159 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 6: ambassador to France, you know, something. 160 00:07:53,160 --> 00:07:54,480 Speaker 3: Cool job for treasury. 161 00:07:54,760 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 6: He's pitching himself for, like the kind of job that 162 00:07:58,560 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 6: you dump somebody who you want to to marginalize a 163 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 6: Blue rish Ribbon Commission on government, you know, waste or something. Right, 164 00:08:04,800 --> 00:08:09,320 Speaker 6: that's not like a premier role in any White House administration. 165 00:08:09,480 --> 00:08:12,200 Speaker 6: But I will say for Elon Musk, maybe it could 166 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 6: be valuable because of course his companies do a lot 167 00:08:14,680 --> 00:08:17,040 Speaker 6: of business with the federal government. If he actually had 168 00:08:17,640 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 6: had influence in terms of how the Trump administration or 169 00:08:21,040 --> 00:08:23,320 Speaker 6: any administration is spending its money, I mean, that would 170 00:08:23,360 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 6: be very valuable. So maybe there's some strategy here. On 171 00:08:26,560 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 6: the other hand, it really just felt in keeping with 172 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 6: the very deferential tone of this conversation. He would never 173 00:08:33,000 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 6: ask for Trump for his as big a job as 174 00:08:35,080 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 6: Treasury Secretary. 175 00:08:35,760 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 4: He's going to ask for a nice, modest job. 176 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: And Musk's companies have been enormous beneficiaries of like the 177 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act, which was passed by President Biden. But 178 00:08:44,800 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 1: there's so much to unpack in this interview. I just 179 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,280 Speaker 1: think it's really remarkable to see what the fallout is today. 180 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:53,720 Speaker 1: So the United Auto Workers is already cutting an ad 181 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,360 Speaker 1: basically accusing Trump and Musk of being in goohos together 182 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:59,560 Speaker 1: and being scaps. Like this is at a time when 183 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: like Michigan is a critical state for both parties to win, 184 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: So it was a big gamble. I mean, if Trump loses, 185 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:07,800 Speaker 1: this interview is going to be seen as like the 186 00:09:07,880 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: high water mark of going all in on him. 187 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:14,079 Speaker 8: I saw that a story that ran yesterday that said 188 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 8: max Essentially, what the Musk led pack is seeking to 189 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,400 Speaker 8: do is get out eight hundred thousand voters for Donald 190 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:25,640 Speaker 8: Trump in swing states, which if they pull that off, 191 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 8: I suppose that would be a pretty large number. 192 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 193 00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:33,120 Speaker 6: I mean watching this live stream and thinking about this, like, 194 00:09:33,200 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 6: there's a trade here and Elon Musk from Donald Trump. 195 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 6: He's hoping for favorable regulations and a return to relevance 196 00:09:40,559 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 6: for X and what Trump needs right is money. 197 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:46,719 Speaker 4: The Trump campaign is counting. 198 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,520 Speaker 6: On outside groups to run its ground game, to knock 199 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 6: on doors and swing states, and one of those groups 200 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:52,880 Speaker 6: is the America Pack. 201 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:54,040 Speaker 4: Is this Elon Musk group? 202 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 6: So I think there's you know, on some level, Trump 203 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 6: is hoping to reach voters directly. Elon Musk does have 204 00:10:01,679 --> 00:10:03,960 Speaker 6: He's a celebrity. There are people who really like him. 205 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 6: There's a certain percentage of the population, maybe a small one, 206 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,800 Speaker 6: that will take his endorsement seriously, but really this is 207 00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:14,480 Speaker 6: about funding the ground game for Republicans, and he really 208 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:18,280 Speaker 6: needs Elon Musk to come through to maybe maybe Elon 209 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:20,840 Speaker 6: Musk isn't going to come through with the forty five 210 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 6: million dollars a month that we in the Wall Street 211 00:10:23,440 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 6: Journal initially reported, and that Elon Musk, you know, later disputed. 212 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:27,200 Speaker 4: But he needs something. 213 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,440 Speaker 6: He needs a big number because that's how they're going 214 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 6: to turn voters out. 215 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:31,520 Speaker 3: Now. You know. 216 00:10:31,559 --> 00:10:32,880 Speaker 8: One of the other things that jumped out at me 217 00:10:33,160 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 8: during the chat was, and this goes back to deferential Elon, 218 00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 8: was when Trump, on several occasions downplayed climate change and 219 00:10:45,000 --> 00:10:47,280 Speaker 8: was talking about how the threat of nuclear war is 220 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 8: much greater than the risk of climate. 221 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:51,160 Speaker 1: Change nuclear warming. 222 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 4: I mean, it is bad, you gotta admit. 223 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 8: And the conversation went down that path a few times. 224 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,960 Speaker 8: There was one in particular where Trump talked at Lange 225 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:04,000 Speaker 8: about his negotiations with the leader of North Korea. 226 00:11:04,120 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 3: Let's listen to that clip. 227 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 2: Now, it was nasty at the beginning with Rocketman and 228 00:11:08,360 --> 00:11:11,199 Speaker 2: you know, all the different things, but all of a sudden. 229 00:11:10,960 --> 00:11:13,600 Speaker 9: I got some epic tweets, by the. 230 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,079 Speaker 2: Way, Yeah they were no, they were epic. Everything he said. 231 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: He said that he has a red button on his desk. 232 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 2: I said, I have a red button on my desk too, 233 00:11:21,640 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: but my red button is much bigger and my red 234 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:24,800 Speaker 2: button works. 235 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:27,960 Speaker 6: The thing about this moment was that, as he said David, 236 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:31,240 Speaker 6: it came in the context of Trump really going on 237 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 6: and on and on about how overblown climate change is. 238 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 6: I mean, I remember when Musk used to say that 239 00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:41,200 Speaker 6: global warming is an immediate and existential issue, that we 240 00:11:41,200 --> 00:11:43,000 Speaker 6: were going to run out of oil, you know, in 241 00:11:43,040 --> 00:11:45,559 Speaker 6: the coming decades. Trump said, we have as much as 242 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:47,880 Speaker 6: five hundred years before we run. 243 00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:48,320 Speaker 4: Out of oil. 244 00:11:48,679 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 6: He really played down climate change, he played down the 245 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 6: need for electric cars, and and you know, Musk for 246 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 6: the most part just kind of yes ed this. He said, yeah, 247 00:11:57,960 --> 00:12:01,440 Speaker 6: we got to stop demonizing false fuels. Thank you, mister 248 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:04,440 Speaker 6: President for the kind words about Tesla. It was kind 249 00:12:04,440 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 6: of wild to watch. 250 00:12:06,040 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 2: Energy started at the price of gasoline. Now your cars 251 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:13,360 Speaker 2: don't require too much guess and say, you have a 252 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:15,360 Speaker 2: good and you do make a great product. I have 253 00:12:15,400 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 2: to say, I have to be honest with you, but 254 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:19,679 Speaker 2: that doesn't mean everybody should have an electric car. But 255 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 2: these are minor details. But your product is incredible. 256 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:26,199 Speaker 1: Fundamentally, these are transactional men, and at every point in 257 00:12:26,240 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: the conversation you could sort of listen keenly for like 258 00:12:29,920 --> 00:12:33,959 Speaker 1: the transaction or the ask. So, for example, when Trump 259 00:12:34,040 --> 00:12:37,160 Speaker 1: was talking about North Korea, Musk slipped in, oh, you 260 00:12:37,280 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: sent some epic tweets, like, obviously Musk really wants Trump 261 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:43,480 Speaker 1: to tweet again. And then when they were talking about 262 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: the cars, like you could sort of sense that there 263 00:12:46,360 --> 00:12:48,760 Speaker 1: was a hope there that that maybe Trump would say 264 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: that the cyber truck was really cool or something. Because 265 00:12:51,040 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 1: I think what we have to remember is Musk's embrace 266 00:12:54,400 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: of Trump is like turning Tesla's diehard early coastal liberal 267 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: customers off from the brand. But this is a very 268 00:13:02,880 --> 00:13:06,320 Speaker 1: big country, and there are plenty of people in red 269 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:09,160 Speaker 1: states who are now looking more favorably at the Tesla 270 00:13:09,160 --> 00:13:12,280 Speaker 1: brand because their politics are now more aligned with that. 271 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: And so like, Elon is very eager to sell cars 272 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:17,240 Speaker 1: to red state America, and if Trump can help with that, 273 00:13:17,320 --> 00:13:20,840 Speaker 1: if Trump's basic line is well, you know, not everyone 274 00:13:20,920 --> 00:13:23,559 Speaker 1: needs an electric car, but Elon's got a great product, 275 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,840 Speaker 1: I mean that does help him, you know, with a 276 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:27,160 Speaker 1: certain segment of the population. 277 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 8: I will note Mosque eikes today that he also invites 278 00:13:32,280 --> 00:13:35,840 Speaker 8: Kamala Harris on for a similar fire side check. I 279 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 8: don't know that she's going to say yes to that. 280 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: Why would she sit down with someone who is funding 281 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 1: her opponent, Like it's not a level it's not an 282 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 1: actual level playing field. Like Musk is not an impartial 283 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:51,800 Speaker 1: person here. He is funding Donald Trump's reelection campaign with 284 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: pledging millions of dollars and starting a super pack like 285 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: this is not like it's just would be ridiculous for 286 00:13:58,640 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: her to do. 287 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:04,280 Speaker 8: That said, Okay, great stuff, Dana, thanks for joining us. 288 00:14:04,280 --> 00:14:13,439 Speaker 4: Always a pleasure, David, I think we should change gears. 289 00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 4: Over the past few weeks, as. 290 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,760 Speaker 6: You know, we've been on an Elon focused road trip, 291 00:14:17,880 --> 00:14:20,320 Speaker 6: traveling to various parts of the country and the world, 292 00:14:20,360 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 6: talking about you know, Elon musks impact all over the place. 293 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 6: We started in Silicon Valley, where Elon got his start, 294 00:14:25,640 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 6: then we went to Texas where he now lives and 295 00:14:28,000 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 6: does most of his work, and we've reached the next 296 00:14:30,680 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 6: stop on our tour, China. 297 00:14:32,920 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 3: China. 298 00:14:33,440 --> 00:14:36,560 Speaker 8: Yeah, you know, we've been a touch guilty on this show. 299 00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: Max. 300 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:40,640 Speaker 8: I believe in not giving China its due given how 301 00:14:40,640 --> 00:14:43,520 Speaker 8: incredibly important it is to both Tesla and just a 302 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 8: Musk empire, writ Lard. 303 00:14:46,120 --> 00:14:48,360 Speaker 3: This chat, though, will will rectify that. 304 00:14:49,000 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 6: Yeah, you did this interview, what a few weeks ago, 305 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 6: and tell us who you talk to and why. 306 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:57,080 Speaker 3: I spoke with Bethany Allen. 307 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:00,000 Speaker 8: She's the head of program for China Investigations and Analysis 308 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 8: at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute, and she was really great, 309 00:15:04,800 --> 00:15:09,600 Speaker 8: very knowledgeable, very insightful. We talked about Tesla's megafactory there, 310 00:15:09,760 --> 00:15:11,920 Speaker 8: the huge role of plays in China and globally. We 311 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 8: talked about censorship and inherent contradictions and a venture like this, 312 00:15:15,960 --> 00:15:16,880 Speaker 8: and you know, Max. 313 00:15:16,720 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 3: We talked a lot about catfish. I mean a lot. 314 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:22,240 Speaker 3: There was a lot of catfish. 315 00:15:22,280 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 8: I re listened to the interview this morning and my 316 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,600 Speaker 8: biggest take was, Man, there's just a there's so much 317 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 8: catfish talk on it, and it's so good. 318 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:31,240 Speaker 3: I'm thinking maybe we need a catfish podcast. 319 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,160 Speaker 6: Well, you're making me hungry just hearing that, and I 320 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 6: think everyone will agreed. Let's cut to that chat with 321 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:37,520 Speaker 6: Bethany Allen. 322 00:15:43,080 --> 00:15:47,000 Speaker 8: Okay, so we are joined by Bethany Allen, who's the 323 00:15:47,040 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 8: head of China Investigations at the Australian Strategic Policy Institute 324 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 8: and she's an author of the book Beijing Rules that 325 00:15:56,360 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 8: you came out with last year. Bethany, Welcome, Thanks so 326 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 8: much for having me on this podcast. We talk about 327 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,680 Speaker 8: Tesla quite a bit. We obviously talk about Elon's broader 328 00:16:08,720 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 8: empire a lot, We talk about different markets than the 329 00:16:12,760 --> 00:16:15,160 Speaker 8: markets that matter a lot to it, But we just 330 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,600 Speaker 8: have not talked much about China, and so we're going 331 00:16:19,640 --> 00:16:23,840 Speaker 8: to dive deep here with you on Elon and China 332 00:16:23,880 --> 00:16:27,480 Speaker 8: and that at times fraught relationship there between the two 333 00:16:27,520 --> 00:16:29,160 Speaker 8: of them. So let me just throw out at you 334 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:34,840 Speaker 8: to start with, when you think about Elon Musk in China, 335 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 8: what are the first thoughts that come to mind? 336 00:16:38,240 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 7: Well, these days, I think about the relationship of relative 337 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 7: dependence that he has, and I would say growing dependence 338 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 7: that he has on China, on the Chinese government and 339 00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:51,280 Speaker 7: on the largest of the Chinese government, and on the 340 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 7: Chinese market for Tesla's continued survival. But I also think 341 00:16:55,760 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 7: about the vision that he had when Tesla opened its 342 00:16:58,520 --> 00:17:03,440 Speaker 7: first factory there, that he viewed the Chinese market not 343 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,199 Speaker 7: just as a place that he wanted to sell, but 344 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,199 Speaker 7: also as key to his future global strategy. And I 345 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 7: think that was a smart move on his part. 346 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 8: And when you say key to his future global strategy, 347 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 8: how by turning China not only into a producer for 348 00:17:21,800 --> 00:17:24,720 Speaker 8: the Chinese market, but also as an export hub. 349 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:26,359 Speaker 5: Exactly right. 350 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,919 Speaker 7: So the factory in which he got permission from the 351 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 7: Chinese government to build in Shanghai, and in a first 352 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:39,120 Speaker 7: for any foreign automaker, he was able to build that 353 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 7: factory with the permission of the Chinese government with no 354 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 7: no local joint venture partner. So that shows you the 355 00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,280 Speaker 7: kinds of concessions, unique concessions that he was able to 356 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:53,520 Speaker 7: get from the Chinese government and how much they wanted 357 00:17:53,640 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 7: him to be there. And now if you look at 358 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 7: the trajectory of that factory, around half of all of 359 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 7: Tesla's global sales are from cars made in the Shanghai factory, 360 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 7: and about a third of Tesla's overall global sales are 361 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 7: in the Chinese market. He was able to take advantage 362 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:18,320 Speaker 7: not of access, not just of access to that market, 363 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 7: but also of the cheap, cheaper Chinese components and the 364 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 7: relatively inexpensive and relatively skilled Chinese labor force to really 365 00:18:27,240 --> 00:18:32,000 Speaker 7: benefit Tesla and strengthen its global push. 366 00:18:32,080 --> 00:18:36,640 Speaker 8: That's interesting about the new because when I think China, 367 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:41,160 Speaker 8: I think of a country that is increasingly and certainly 368 00:18:41,200 --> 00:18:46,400 Speaker 8: in the EV space, in conflict with important large markets 369 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:49,439 Speaker 8: in the West, the US, much of the EU, the 370 00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,640 Speaker 8: UK for instance. I know, or I should say, at least, 371 00:18:52,640 --> 00:18:55,919 Speaker 8: I don't think there are many evs coming in that 372 00:18:55,960 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 8: are made in China to the US market or some 373 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 8: of these other western countries. So then where are these 374 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:06,280 Speaker 8: Chinese made teslas going pretty. 375 00:19:06,000 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 7: Much everywhere else, certainly in Europe and any other market. 376 00:19:11,640 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 7: I mean, the US doesn't permit Chinese made evs to 377 00:19:15,720 --> 00:19:17,840 Speaker 7: be sold in the US, but a lot of other 378 00:19:17,880 --> 00:19:21,880 Speaker 7: markets do, including Europe, including Australia, New Zealand, et cetera, 379 00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:23,600 Speaker 7: and certainly in the. 380 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,359 Speaker 5: Developing the middle income world. 381 00:19:25,480 --> 00:19:28,040 Speaker 7: Let's say, but I want to go back a little 382 00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:31,680 Speaker 7: bit to what we kind of conceived of China as 383 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,919 Speaker 7: being in certainly the two thousands and even for the 384 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,320 Speaker 7: first half of the twenty tens, it was. It was 385 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 7: a low quality, cheap it was the world's cheap stuff factory. 386 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,840 Speaker 7: The Chinese government had this vision of turning China into 387 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 7: a high quality, high tech manufacturer and eventually a hub 388 00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,479 Speaker 7: for innovation, and there was a lot of skepticism, you know, 389 00:19:54,520 --> 00:19:58,040 Speaker 7: even as late as twenty seventeen, if you're looking specifically 390 00:19:58,080 --> 00:19:59,879 Speaker 7: at their EV industry, that they would be able to 391 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,800 Speaker 7: accomplish this. And one reason for that is that China's 392 00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 7: model of development is, especially its strategic direction, is quite 393 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 7: top down. So you get planned like the Made in 394 00:20:11,600 --> 00:20:14,479 Speaker 7: China twenty twenty five plan, which was a very central 395 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,720 Speaker 7: government top down you know, here are our strategic industries, 396 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 7: and here's where we plan to dominate by twenty twenty five, 397 00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 7: and electric vehicles was one sector. And so the Chinese 398 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:31,760 Speaker 7: government basically subsidized that the fledgling EV industry into existence, 399 00:20:32,240 --> 00:20:35,560 Speaker 7: and really massive government subsidies and other kinds of government 400 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:40,000 Speaker 7: assistants helped a bunch of EV startups get started. It 401 00:20:40,000 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 7: helped create a market for them by vastly reducing the 402 00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 7: cost of EV the electric vehicles in China, and it 403 00:20:47,240 --> 00:20:50,199 Speaker 7: was so successful at that that now China is the 404 00:20:50,240 --> 00:20:53,480 Speaker 7: world's by far, the world's largest market for EV's. Chinese 405 00:20:53,520 --> 00:20:57,080 Speaker 7: consumers now are buying electric vehicles not because they are 406 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:00,119 Speaker 7: the beneficiary of subsidies which lower the prices now, but 407 00:21:00,160 --> 00:21:02,399 Speaker 7: because they actually want those cars because those are the 408 00:21:02,440 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 7: best cars. They're the cheapest cars, they're the best quality cars. 409 00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:09,679 Speaker 7: So the Chinese government in some ways kind of created 410 00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:15,199 Speaker 7: this actually now organic market that is reshaping not just 411 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:18,240 Speaker 7: the EV industry but the auto industry around the world. 412 00:21:18,320 --> 00:21:20,560 Speaker 7: This is the context of anything we want to talk 413 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:24,840 Speaker 7: about Tesla. That it was the Chinese government supported market 414 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 7: was very had very beneficial policies for domestic Chinese EV makers, 415 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,320 Speaker 7: and it was a very top down put. That means 416 00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:38,280 Speaker 7: that Tesla's entry into China also had to be top down. 417 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 7: Elon Musk had to go to the power brokers in Beijing, 418 00:21:42,400 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 7: and so at the time Lee Chiang, the Party Secretary 419 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 7: of Shanghai, now the premiere of China, and convince them, 420 00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 7: you know, get their permission to come in and participate in. 421 00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 8: That Bethany on that point, you know, when you think 422 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:58,440 Speaker 8: of Elon, or at least certainly when we think of 423 00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 8: him here in the US, we think of Elon the libertarian, 424 00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:10,640 Speaker 8: the free speech absolutist, the small government guy. And so 425 00:22:11,000 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 8: it's a little tough for us to square in our 426 00:22:14,359 --> 00:22:19,000 Speaker 8: brains that Elon with the Elon who will rush off 427 00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 8: to Beijing and toe the party line. But I guess 428 00:22:23,920 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 8: you're saying he's proven again and again more than willing 429 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,440 Speaker 8: to do it if it means gaining access to that market, 430 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:34,680 Speaker 8: into that labor force, and also to some of those 431 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:36,719 Speaker 8: China subsidies you were talking about. 432 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,720 Speaker 7: Yeah, so Elon Musk is by no means unique in 433 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 7: this kind of apparent hypocrisy. In fact, this is what 434 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:49,480 Speaker 7: the Chinese government has designed its market to do, precisely exactly, 435 00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:51,000 Speaker 7: this to turn. 436 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 8: Many of the world's biggest global leaders into hypocrites, well. 437 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:57,880 Speaker 7: Not into hypocrites, but into people who are willing to 438 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 7: toe the Chinese communist party lines or to support their 439 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:06,520 Speaker 7: core interests on certain key issues, even and especially, in fact, 440 00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 7: especially when those interests are in contradiction to US or 441 00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:16,240 Speaker 7: Western interests and US democratic values. That's what the Chinese 442 00:23:16,280 --> 00:23:19,119 Speaker 7: government has gotten so good at using the power of 443 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:23,520 Speaker 7: the sheer power of their markets for geopolitical reasons and 444 00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 7: to accomplish geopolitical purposes, certainly in the realm of speech. 445 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:29,840 Speaker 7: So you know, every government leader in the world knows 446 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:32,440 Speaker 7: that if they choose to criticize China's human rights record, 447 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 7: or if they call Sheating a dictator, they might be 448 00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:40,720 Speaker 7: endangering any kind of delicate diplomatic relations or negotiations that 449 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,160 Speaker 7: are happening. So you have correctly pointed out that Elon 450 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 7: seems to have certain values that he promotes when he's 451 00:23:47,200 --> 00:23:52,160 Speaker 7: speaking freely related to US culture wars or political wars. 452 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 7: But in the Chinese market he has just he doesn't 453 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 7: criticize China for having the world's most developed censorship state. 454 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:02,119 Speaker 7: He doesn't criticize the fact that there's no such thing 455 00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:05,080 Speaker 7: as libertarianism there, right. But I will say that he's 456 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 7: also very clearly not a free speech absolutist. The way 457 00:24:07,960 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 7: that he has used Twitter. He's maybe fine with criticism 458 00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 7: of everyone else, but not himself. And I will say 459 00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 7: that in some ways that is very similar to the 460 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,640 Speaker 7: CCP's approach to free speech. They're perfectly happy for other 461 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 7: people to criticize other governments, just not themselves. 462 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 8: Let's go back for a second to the Chinese EV market, 463 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:29,120 Speaker 8: and you were talking about the way China was able 464 00:24:29,160 --> 00:24:30,960 Speaker 8: to build it up in a way that was not 465 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 8: intuitive to anybody watching from afar. Does China's luring Tesla 466 00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:42,639 Speaker 8: in help these other EV makers there in China take off? 467 00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 8: Or are those other EV makers in China taking off 468 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 8: already by the time Tesla arrives. 469 00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 5: That's a great question. 470 00:24:49,720 --> 00:24:52,639 Speaker 7: And I have a quote here from a great piece 471 00:24:52,800 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 7: by Lee and she writes opinion for The New York 472 00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 7: Times about this, and I just I love how she 473 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,760 Speaker 7: described this very dynamic, this question that you're asking here, 474 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:04,159 Speaker 7: Why did China want Tesla in? Why would you welcome 475 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 7: in a competitor when you're trying to get your own 476 00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 7: industry off the ground. And here's what she writes, as 477 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,080 Speaker 7: of in twenty seventeen, Beijing is seeking what the business 478 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,920 Speaker 7: world calls the catfish effect. Toss an aggressive fish into 479 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:22,479 Speaker 7: a pool so that the established denizens will swim harder. 480 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 7: And that is exactly what happened. When you have a strong, 481 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 7: aggressive actor in the market, it will force the other 482 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:32,399 Speaker 7: companies to really up their game. 483 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:34,480 Speaker 5: And it's not just a market effect. 484 00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:38,439 Speaker 7: Having that Tesla factory in Shanghai, why would the Chinese 485 00:25:38,520 --> 00:25:39,520 Speaker 7: government want to. 486 00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,720 Speaker 5: Have that factory there. 487 00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 7: Part of the reason is that factory has become integrated 488 00:25:44,480 --> 00:25:48,919 Speaker 7: into domestic Chinese supply chains for various components. You know 489 00:25:49,000 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 7: companies that are Chinese companies that are supplying components to 490 00:25:52,240 --> 00:25:55,080 Speaker 7: that factory. They have to step up their game, they 491 00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 7: have to learn these processes that has made Tesla's so successful, 492 00:26:00,480 --> 00:26:03,880 Speaker 7: and it creates this challenge and also this rewards system 493 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,880 Speaker 7: across the entire industry, not just the Chinese EV makers themselves, 494 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,440 Speaker 7: but also their own suppliers, and it kind of taught, 495 00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 7: it trained the whole supply chain market, almost like putting 496 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 7: them into a boot camp or something. And that's exactly 497 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:20,879 Speaker 7: what we saw happen, is that EV makers in China 498 00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:24,880 Speaker 7: became incredibly competitive with each other with Tesla. I mean, 499 00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,240 Speaker 7: the kind of cutthroat competition we saw in the past 500 00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:30,600 Speaker 7: three to four years in China was I mean, it 501 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 7: was almost seemed like it was not backfiring but causing 502 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 7: harm to the companies because the price competition was so intense. 503 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:42,440 Speaker 7: And the result of that was very efficient, high quality, 504 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 7: inexpensive Chinese electric vehicles, which now you know, ironically, so 505 00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:51,240 Speaker 7: Tesla had this kind of catalyst role in. 506 00:26:51,240 --> 00:26:51,880 Speaker 5: The market there. 507 00:26:52,560 --> 00:26:55,040 Speaker 7: Now it's being beaten at its own game, both domestically 508 00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,240 Speaker 7: in China and around the world. In twenty twenty three, 509 00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,400 Speaker 7: we saw Tesla's market share in a fall from ten 510 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,360 Speaker 7: percent to six percent approximately. 511 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,440 Speaker 8: Who are those big Chinese EV makers who are taking 512 00:27:06,480 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 8: market share from Tesla. 513 00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:09,160 Speaker 5: Yeah, well, the biggest one is BYD. 514 00:27:09,320 --> 00:27:11,520 Speaker 7: In fact, at the end of last year we briefly 515 00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:16,679 Speaker 7: saw BYD overtake Tesla as the world's biggest EV maker, 516 00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:20,600 Speaker 7: and BYD in China isn't just the biggest EV maker, 517 00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:22,959 Speaker 7: it's the biggest car maker period. 518 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:27,480 Speaker 8: How much is the typical Tesla How much more expensive 519 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:32,679 Speaker 8: would it be than the average BYDEV or some similar vehicle, 520 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 8: way more expensive. 521 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 7: So the average standard like byd EV sedan that your 522 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 7: average kind of middle class family would want to buy 523 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 7: is fourteen thousand US dollars. Okay, that's half of Toyota's prius. Yeah, yeah, 524 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 7: that's what we're looking at. We were talking like almost 525 00:27:49,359 --> 00:27:52,560 Speaker 7: budget cars here, and Tesla can't. I mean, Tesla absolutely 526 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 7: doesn't have anything at that price point. 527 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,760 Speaker 5: And these are quality cars. 528 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 7: You know, these are cars that Chinese consumers are buying 529 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,160 Speaker 7: because they're just the best card at the best price 530 00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 7: point for them. That's hard, that's hard right now for 531 00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,160 Speaker 7: Tesla to compete with in China or elsewhere. 532 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 8: So if Tesla was indeed the catfish that got let 533 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:18,719 Speaker 8: loose in the Chinese EV market and the EV industry. 534 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 8: I wonder, all these years later, has this relationship between 535 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:31,640 Speaker 8: China and Tesla benefited China more or Tesla In Elon Moore, it. 536 00:28:31,600 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 7: Has certainly been when cooperation in Beijing's most favored slogan. 537 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:38,360 Speaker 5: It certainly has. 538 00:28:39,160 --> 00:28:41,960 Speaker 7: Tesla's made enormous amounts of money in the Chinese market, 539 00:28:42,160 --> 00:28:45,720 Speaker 7: and through the increased efficiency and the way that they've 540 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 7: been half their global sales come from the Shanghai factory. 541 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:52,720 Speaker 7: And obviously the Chinese government has been able to achieve 542 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 7: it has been greatly helped in achieving its goal of 543 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,360 Speaker 7: becoming a global leader in the EV industry. I think 544 00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 7: in the long run you could say that Tesla has 545 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 7: been building its own gallows, that by helping its competitors, 546 00:29:09,080 --> 00:29:11,600 Speaker 7: it has helped its competitors become large enough, been big 547 00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:14,000 Speaker 7: enough to eat it. I don't know that the Chinese 548 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 7: government is experiencing that kind of negative effect. There was 549 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,600 Speaker 7: a I would say, a relationship, a kind of a 550 00:29:20,080 --> 00:29:23,960 Speaker 7: mutual symbiosis between Tesla and China and twenty seventeen, and 551 00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 7: that has in some ways gradually the balance of power 552 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:36,280 Speaker 7: has shifted to some extent towards Chinese government officials because 553 00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 7: Tesla's global power, it's global industry share has weakened in 554 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 7: part because it was a unicorn. It was out first, 555 00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,160 Speaker 7: it helped create the EV industry to begin with, and 556 00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,040 Speaker 7: there were always going to eventually be competitors eventually, so 557 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 7: to some extent, perhaps this is inevitable, so I'd say, 558 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:55,480 Speaker 7: and perhaps in the long run it will have benefited 559 00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 7: try anymore. But Elon Musky's doing fine, so I don't 560 00:29:58,760 --> 00:29:59,680 Speaker 7: think it's really harmed him. 561 00:30:00,160 --> 00:30:02,080 Speaker 8: Have plenty of money. We keep pretty close track of 562 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 8: it over here at Bloomberg. I'm not worried about him 563 00:30:04,400 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 8: going broke anytime soon. And the interesting thing in there 564 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 8: I would point out, Bethany, is that Musk was on 565 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:15,080 Speaker 8: the record years ago. He was quoted being pretty disdainful 566 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,880 Speaker 8: and dismissive of byd I think he when he was 567 00:30:18,920 --> 00:30:20,840 Speaker 8: asked about them, I think he'd gave a big smirk 568 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:23,200 Speaker 8: and he said something to the effect of, well have 569 00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:26,760 Speaker 8: you seen taking a look at their cars? I guess 570 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,280 Speaker 8: that catfish, as you say, Elon Musk himself and his company, 571 00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 8: I guess forced b why to you to start making 572 00:30:34,760 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 8: better looking and more appealing cars. But given the nature 573 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 8: of that Chinese government largeess and subsidies is the Western world, right, 574 00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 8: and criticizing and pushing back and saying, okay, yeah, sure, 575 00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 8: you were turning into these dominant players and selling very 576 00:30:56,400 --> 00:31:00,239 Speaker 8: nice cars at super cut rate, super low price is 577 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 8: but that's because yeah, you're getting all this these subsidies 578 00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 8: from the government. Is that a fair criticism. 579 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,960 Speaker 7: Well, yes, It's worked out really well for China. I mean, 580 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 7: China's demonstrated that this kind of policy, top down government 581 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:17,200 Speaker 7: support policy actually can create a truly innovative market, which 582 00:31:17,240 --> 00:31:20,200 Speaker 7: I think even as late as like the early twenty tens, 583 00:31:20,360 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 7: people across the US would have said that's just simply 584 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,239 Speaker 7: not possible, that like human behavior doesn't work that way. 585 00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:26,880 Speaker 5: Well, that's clearly not true. 586 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,960 Speaker 7: However, the problem is as soon as those companies and 587 00:31:31,000 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 7: those products start leaving Chinese borders, they start conflicting with 588 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:38,320 Speaker 7: a fairly neoliberal system. Right, China is a member of 589 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,120 Speaker 7: the WTO. We have laws and regulations and agreements and 590 00:31:41,160 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 7: treaties about who can use subsidies and what industries and win, 591 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,480 Speaker 7: because that's what creates a fair playing field on the 592 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 7: international stage. 593 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:49,360 Speaker 5: And what China is doing. 594 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:51,560 Speaker 7: It has even though it has agreed to those rules, 595 00:31:51,760 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 7: it is breaking them, and so it is giving Chinese 596 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 7: companies and Chinese products, and by association, it's giving them 597 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 7: unfair power and unfair advantage on the international playing field, 598 00:32:02,160 --> 00:32:05,000 Speaker 7: and thereby giving the Chinese economy and the Chinese government 599 00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:09,120 Speaker 7: undue sway because of those policies. That is really what 600 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,280 Speaker 7: we're struggling with right at this very moment, because I 601 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 7: would argue that evs are different than many industries because 602 00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:19,000 Speaker 7: they in some ways relate to the eventual survival of 603 00:32:19,000 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 7: the human race. 604 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 5: Can we have a green energy transition? 605 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 7: There's a moral component, or there's a survival component, There's 606 00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 7: some sort of value there that's more than just who's 607 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 7: going to make money from these nice products. And so 608 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:31,760 Speaker 7: there's a whole group of people in the US and 609 00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,480 Speaker 7: elsewhere are saying, look, it's incredibly selfish for us to 610 00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 7: complain about how successful Chinese evs are. They might be 611 00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 7: helping save the planet. But the problem is that because 612 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,520 Speaker 7: of these the Chinese government substuies and other benefits, including 613 00:32:45,560 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 7: by the way, the way that the Chinese government has 614 00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 7: gone in and locked up the rare earths and lithium 615 00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 7: and stuff needed for some of these technologies around the world, 616 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 7: thus locking out other countries. Another problem is something we 617 00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 7: haven't raised yet but we must, is that the Chinese 618 00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:06,560 Speaker 7: electric vehicle makers and especially batteries, their production is closely 619 00:33:06,600 --> 00:33:10,200 Speaker 7: tied to force labor in chen Jong, which is part 620 00:33:10,240 --> 00:33:13,200 Speaker 7: of a campaign of genocide that the Chinese government is 621 00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:18,560 Speaker 7: currently perpetrating against Wigers and other Muslim minority groups in Senjong. 622 00:33:18,960 --> 00:33:22,240 Speaker 7: So this the whole auto industry, the EV industry in 623 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,920 Speaker 7: China is very complicit in genocide. 624 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:29,520 Speaker 8: And when you say that the entire Chinese EV industry 625 00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:32,480 Speaker 8: is complicit in that, does that include Tesla? 626 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,440 Speaker 5: So not, to my knowledge Tesla supply chains. 627 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 7: But so we've talked about what are the ways that 628 00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 7: Elon Musk is being incentivized by the Chinese government to 629 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 7: do things or not do things to bring his power 630 00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 7: and his sway in line with Chinese government and Chinese 631 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 7: Communist Party core interests. 632 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:53,360 Speaker 5: What are some of those things? 633 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 7: Well, I will give an example in I believe it 634 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,960 Speaker 7: was twenty nineteen, maybe getting that year not quite right. 635 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,240 Speaker 7: So Tesla opened a showroom in Urumchi, that's the capital 636 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 7: of the Shinjong region where the Weger homeland, where they 637 00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:12,640 Speaker 7: are currently subject to a genocide. Why why would he 638 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 7: open a showroom there. It's a far western province. Why 639 00:34:16,719 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 7: And the reason is that the Chinese government has a 640 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:22,520 Speaker 7: very clear, they're very public about it, policy to get 641 00:34:22,600 --> 00:34:26,960 Speaker 7: Chinese companies, in foreign companies to invest in Chinjong because, 642 00:34:27,120 --> 00:34:30,080 Speaker 7: among other reasons, if the Chinese government can say, look 643 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:32,839 Speaker 7: what we're doing in Shanjong has improved its economy, has 644 00:34:32,920 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 7: brought industry there, look at what wonderful policies we have 645 00:34:36,360 --> 00:34:40,479 Speaker 7: in Shinjong. That's a way of justifying their policies there. 646 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:45,040 Speaker 7: And we saw, for example, Volkswagen, another automaker, open a 647 00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:48,520 Speaker 7: factory near a rum Chi and it's believed that the 648 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 7: reason they did that was because by doing so, they 649 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:53,919 Speaker 7: curried favor with the Chinese government in Beijing, and thus 650 00:34:53,920 --> 00:34:56,200 Speaker 7: we're permitted to open a much more important and valuable 651 00:34:56,200 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 7: factory near Beijing. So in this context, Elon must opened 652 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,319 Speaker 7: a showroom, not a factory, a showroom in a room cheep. 653 00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:06,120 Speaker 7: One thing we haven't touched on, and I really want to, 654 00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 7: is the issue of Elon Musk's ownership of Twitter. We've 655 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 7: talked about the leverage that the Chinese government has over 656 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,520 Speaker 7: him because of Tesla and now Twitter is not in 657 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:19,840 Speaker 7: the Chinese market. It's been banned since like two thousand 658 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,760 Speaker 7: and nine or something. So for itself as a company, 659 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,799 Speaker 7: it doesn't have any kind of the Chinese government doesn't 660 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 7: have any direct leverage over it, but it absolutely has 661 00:35:28,160 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 7: leverage over a Musk right. So that has brought intense 662 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,680 Speaker 7: concerns from people, certainly in the China watching space about 663 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 7: if the Chinese government were to really ratchet up the 664 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:45,000 Speaker 7: pressure on Elon that they could exercise more sway over 665 00:35:45,080 --> 00:35:48,240 Speaker 7: a very important virtual public. 666 00:35:47,920 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 5: Square in America. It's a really key. 667 00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,440 Speaker 7: Space, especially for political discussions, especially for election discussions, and 668 00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 7: for disinformation operations. And what happened after Elon Musk took 669 00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:03,160 Speaker 7: over Twitter is that stopped It removed a lot of 670 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:09,080 Speaker 7: the protections over around transparency for foreign government state backed 671 00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:13,440 Speaker 7: information operations. It may became far less transparent. It stopped 672 00:36:13,480 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 7: participating in some of these voluntary disclosures of an authentic 673 00:36:17,400 --> 00:36:19,560 Speaker 7: state backed behavior that they're seeing on Twitter. And we 674 00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 7: know that the Chinese government is very active. There's spamouflage, 675 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:26,200 Speaker 7: is this whole state backed campaign that targets Twitter to 676 00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:29,319 Speaker 7: support Chinese government narratives. I don't think Elon Musk has 677 00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 7: any particular incentive to not do what the Chinese government asks, 678 00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:37,239 Speaker 7: or even if they don't ask, he has definitely no 679 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 7: incentive to put Twitter resources into doing things that combat 680 00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:42,240 Speaker 7: Chinese state backed narratives on Twitter. 681 00:36:42,760 --> 00:36:47,480 Speaker 8: So, Bethany, just to be clear here, you're saying that 682 00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 8: not only is this a risk that Beijing could increasingly 683 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:54,759 Speaker 8: lean on Elon or in its body language and posture 684 00:36:54,880 --> 00:36:57,279 Speaker 8: make clear to him through a link that this is 685 00:36:57,320 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 8: the way we'd like you to rule over there at Twitter. 686 00:37:00,120 --> 00:37:02,839 Speaker 8: Are you suggesting that it's possible that it at some 687 00:37:02,960 --> 00:37:04,880 Speaker 8: level it already has begun to do so. 688 00:37:05,640 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 7: No, I'm not making that specific claim, And in fact, 689 00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,360 Speaker 7: I've said the Chinese government could do that, but I 690 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:12,640 Speaker 7: don't think they even have to. The thing about the 691 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:14,640 Speaker 7: way that they use their market access in this way 692 00:37:14,719 --> 00:37:17,440 Speaker 7: is that it's been like the world's most successful pr campaign. 693 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:20,840 Speaker 7: Everybody knows the kind of speech the Chinese government doesn't like. 694 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:23,719 Speaker 7: Everybody knows what that is, and everyone knows that if 695 00:37:23,719 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 7: you do something they don't like, they can take away 696 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,200 Speaker 7: your access to the market. So what incentive would Elon 697 00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,320 Speaker 7: must possibly have to spend money to combat narratives that 698 00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,279 Speaker 7: the Chinese that he knows the Chinese government is in 699 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:36,799 Speaker 7: fact backing and propagating on Twitter. I don't think there's 700 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:38,200 Speaker 7: very much incentive there, and. 701 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:39,279 Speaker 5: He doesn't have to be told that. 702 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 7: I know that, you know that, everyone knows that it's 703 00:37:41,600 --> 00:37:45,400 Speaker 7: a it's clear consistent messaging for engaging. So even without 704 00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:48,479 Speaker 7: that kind of smoking gun of the Chinese government telling 705 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:50,040 Speaker 7: Elon to do this, that or the other on Twitter, 706 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:54,040 Speaker 7: the way the party operates, the CCP operates is by 707 00:37:54,160 --> 00:37:59,600 Speaker 7: shaping the decision making environment of key actors like Twitter 708 00:37:59,640 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 7: and and those incentives already exist and already put in place. 709 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 7: And so a huge issue that we face in this election, 710 00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,200 Speaker 7: in the last two elections, is the issue of foreign 711 00:38:09,239 --> 00:38:13,960 Speaker 7: government interference in our information ecosystem, among other kinds of interference. 712 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:17,120 Speaker 5: Twitter is now far more more vulnerable to that. 713 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 7: Twitter doesn't take down Chinese state backed bots the way 714 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 7: they used to, They don't combat those operations the. 715 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:22,880 Speaker 5: Way they used to. 716 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:25,919 Speaker 7: And we know for a fact that Chinese state backed 717 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,840 Speaker 7: information operations on Twitter are in fact involved in political 718 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:30,280 Speaker 7: narratives in the US election. 719 00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:32,360 Speaker 5: So there's a direct. 720 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 7: Tie between you know, Elon Musk's the bet he's made 721 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 7: on the Chinese market, the assets he has wrapped up there, 722 00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 7: his ownership of Twitter, and how that affects our information space. 723 00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:42,880 Speaker 5: In the election. 724 00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,120 Speaker 8: Bethany, listen, this was really fantastic. Thank you very much 725 00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 8: for joining us. 726 00:38:47,880 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 5: Thanks so much for having me. 727 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 8: This episode was produced by Stacy Wong, Naomi Shaven and 728 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 8: Raihan Harmanci are senior editor's. The idea for this very 729 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:06,239 Speaker 8: show also came from Rayhon Blake. Maples handles engineering, and 730 00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 8: we get special editing assistants from Jeff Grocott, David Purcell, 731 00:39:10,000 --> 00:39:14,520 Speaker 8: and Manette Lalariano. Our supervising producer is Magnus Henrikson. 732 00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,960 Speaker 3: The Elon Inc. Theme is written and performed by Taka 733 00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 3: Yasuzawa and Alex Sugierra. 734 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:24,360 Speaker 8: Brendan Francis Newnham is our executive producer, and Sage Bauman 735 00:39:24,480 --> 00:39:27,279 Speaker 8: is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. A big thanks to 736 00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 8: our supporter Joel Weber. I'm David Papadopolis. If you have 737 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:34,319 Speaker 8: a minute, rate and review our show, it'll help other 738 00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,520 Speaker 8: listeners find us. 739 00:39:35,760 --> 00:39:36,520 Speaker 3: See you next week.