WEBVTT - CLASSIC: The Dark Alliance: Did the US government and druglords kill Gary Webb? 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:03.720 Welcome back to the classics. Fellow conspiracy realist. If you 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:05.920 are a longtime listener, there is a name that you 0:00:06.080 --> 0:00:10.320 know and know very well. No, not Intern Steve, although 0:00:10.320 --> 0:00:14.240 shout out to him. Instead, we're talking about Gary Webb. 0:00:14.760 --> 0:00:16.799 Who is Gary Webb? Or who was he? 0:00:17.160 --> 0:00:21.760 Yeah? How is he connected to Freeway? What is it Rick? 0:00:22.079 --> 0:00:25.560 Not the Rick Ross rapper, but Freeway Rick Ross? 0:00:25.680 --> 0:00:25.919 Yeah? 0:00:26.239 --> 0:00:29.240 Yeah, the guy who was actually moving lots and lots 0:00:29.280 --> 0:00:32.479 of drugs allegedly according to his story for the government. 0:00:34.159 --> 0:00:38.320 Yeah. Gary Webb's an investigative journalist who for a long 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:41.400 time worked for an outfit called the Mercury News. And 0:00:41.479 --> 0:00:45.240 he is the guy who brought to the American public 0:00:45.640 --> 0:00:50.480 the idea that the CIA was fueling the crack cocaine 0:00:50.560 --> 0:00:57.440 epidemic in the United States. Ultimately, Gary Webb died from 0:00:57.480 --> 0:00:59.880 two gunshots to the heads. 0:01:00.520 --> 0:01:05.560 Deemed a suicide, well officially, but come on now, well 0:01:05.600 --> 0:01:09.679 this feels weird to me. Let's look into it. By 0:01:09.720 --> 0:01:12.480 the way, when every time I see the phrase Dark Alliance, 0:01:14.000 --> 0:01:17.280 thankfully now I have this association to Gary Webb. But 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:20.679 it was a Balder's Gate video game that came out 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.560 a long time ago. That's right, called Balder's Gate Dark Alliance. 0:01:24.720 --> 0:01:28.880 So then I imagined an isometric action adventure RPG. But 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:32.119 thankfully again Gary Webb is here to help us. 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.400 Now I'm imagining both of them. What is Dark Alliance 0:01:36.520 --> 0:01:37.880 really trying to tell us? 0:01:38.760 --> 0:01:43.240 From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is 0:01:43.319 --> 0:01:47.640 riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 0:01:47.720 --> 0:01:49.680 learn the stuff they don't want you to know. 0:02:02.840 --> 0:02:04.840 Hey, guys, I love the podcast and I'm usually a 0:02:04.920 --> 0:02:06.520 huge fan of your work, but I have to say 0:02:06.520 --> 0:02:09.080 I just listened to the Cryptids of Australia episode and 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:12.480 I was very disappointed. At the beginning you mentioned that 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.400 you did the Cryptid math. I can't believe no one 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.720 took this opportunity to say you did the monster math. 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:20.200 I expect better. 0:02:21.040 --> 0:02:23.239 That wasn't dad joke, missed opportunity. 0:02:23.360 --> 0:02:24.360 That was from Devin. 0:02:24.960 --> 0:02:26.960 My name's Matt, my name's Nol. 0:02:27.360 --> 0:02:29.560 They call me Ben. We are joined with our super 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:33.440 producer Paul Decktt. Most importantly, you are you. You are 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.720 here that makes this stuff they don't want you to know. 0:02:36.919 --> 0:02:37.119 Matt. 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.120 That was new was that you're trying something out, just 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:40.760 messing around. 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:43.480 It's like a cold open kind of in a weird way, 0:02:43.680 --> 0:02:45.440 unrelated entirely. 0:02:45.440 --> 0:02:47.120 Just you know, calling us out for not doing the 0:02:47.120 --> 0:02:48.240 monster math. It's cool. 0:02:48.360 --> 0:02:51.600 Well, also calling us out for maybe not doing our 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.480 due diligence, which is something that's going to come up 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.840 a lot in this episode in particular. Right, you can 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.640 say all sorts of things, but can you prove them? 0:03:02.040 --> 0:03:04.400 I don't know. Maybe let's start this way. So the 0:03:04.520 --> 0:03:07.520 four of us live and record in the Atlanta area, 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.640 and Atlanta, in a huge burst of good news, has 0:03:11.680 --> 0:03:16.680 a tremendous drug problem. Yeah, Like, as we're recording and 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:20.160 be sarcastic, but as we're recording this, not more than 0:03:20.280 --> 0:03:23.400 three or four hundred yards away from the studio we're 0:03:23.400 --> 0:03:26.360 in right now, there is more than likely someone on 0:03:26.400 --> 0:03:29.440 a backstreet doing a hard drug of some sort, and 0:03:29.520 --> 0:03:32.519 maybe on a main street. There are also probably several 0:03:32.560 --> 0:03:37.160 people on street corners in the same vicinity selling these drugs. 0:03:37.880 --> 0:03:41.600 And if you live in a large American city, areas 0:03:41.680 --> 0:03:46.680 of your local metropolis almost definitely have areas where drug 0:03:46.760 --> 0:03:50.720 problems are endemic and there are huge issues with trying 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:54.200 to address it. But here's the big question, where does 0:03:54.240 --> 0:03:56.000 all of this come from? You know what I mean, 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:01.120 The local corner drug dealer is almost certainly not flying 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:04.600 to the Golden Triangle or flying to South America on 0:04:04.640 --> 0:04:09.200 a weekly basis to sell somebody like heroin or cocaine 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.160 at ten bucks a pop. It's just the plane tickets 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:14.360 too expensive. It economically doesn't make sense. 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:18.840 Yeah, and that person or group of people selling drugs 0:04:18.880 --> 0:04:21.359 on the corner aren't also on those flights purchasing the 0:04:21.440 --> 0:04:25.000 large quantities of cocaine or whatever, then flying all of 0:04:25.040 --> 0:04:27.680 that stuff back to the United States, then processing it 0:04:28.000 --> 0:04:31.760 into let's say, crack cocaine, which is a process, and 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:35.040 then like you said, selling it for that low amount 0:04:35.080 --> 0:04:35.480 of money. 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.960 Right. And there's an excellent study that Freakonomics did a 0:04:39.960 --> 0:04:44.240 while back. We're big fans of Freakonomics that busted the 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.760 myth the drug dealers make tons and tons of cash. 0:04:48.200 --> 0:04:51.760 Actually you would be. You might be incredibly surprised by 0:04:51.839 --> 0:04:55.040 how little drug dealers, most drug dealers actually make. 0:04:55.080 --> 0:04:56.680 It kind of reminds me of that thing we talked 0:04:56.680 --> 0:05:00.919 about ben off Mic about how little money bank robbers 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:03.240 probably make. You know, it's this notion that they're just 0:05:03.279 --> 0:05:06.479 cleaning it up, but in fact, banks don't keep that 0:05:06.560 --> 0:05:09.320 much money on hand, and to make a decent living, 0:05:09.440 --> 0:05:11.280 like even like a relatively decent living, you would have 0:05:11.360 --> 0:05:13.239 to your success rate would have to be one hundred percent, 0:05:13.520 --> 0:05:15.839 and you would have to, you know, do a certain 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:17.000 amount of heists every. 0:05:16.920 --> 0:05:18.960 Year with a certain amount of people, a certain amount 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:19.279 of people. 0:05:19.360 --> 0:05:21.400 Not that it's related one to one, but you'd think 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:24.520 that drug dealers, you know, there's this cliche notion that 0:05:24.520 --> 0:05:28.640 they're raking in the cash. But I'm interested in your stats, Ben, Oh. 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:31.680 Well, yeah, there's there's the article from La Times that 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:35.320 it's literally titled why drug dealers live with their moms, 0:05:35.720 --> 0:05:38.800 and it goes into what you're talking about here, how 0:05:39.000 --> 0:05:42.400 very little most of the people actually selling the drugs make. 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:44.599 Now I don't want to. I can toot my own 0:05:44.640 --> 0:05:46.680 horn a little bit on the bank heist thing too, 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:50.000 which I think they are related, mainly because I wrote 0:05:50.000 --> 0:05:52.800 the video, but I think someone else appeared in it. 0:05:53.240 --> 0:05:55.040 We did a brain stuff video way back in the 0:05:55.120 --> 0:05:57.719 day about why you shouldn't rob a bank and you 0:05:57.760 --> 0:06:01.200 can find the bank stats there, but they're they're sobering 0:06:01.320 --> 0:06:05.279 and somber, and we see the same thing with drug dealers. 0:06:05.320 --> 0:06:08.680 There's a quick excerpt we could read here the top 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.560 one hundred and twenty men on the Black Disciples pyramid. 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:15.479 That's the hierarchy of the gang. Right, we're paid very well, 0:06:15.520 --> 0:06:18.240 but the pyramid they sat at top was gigantic. So 0:06:18.320 --> 0:06:21.000 if you use this franchise from a guy named JT. 0:06:21.160 --> 0:06:24.479 They mentioned earlier in the article, the franchise had three 0:06:24.520 --> 0:06:29.600 officers and fifty foot soldiers. There were about five three 0:06:29.720 --> 0:06:32.839 hundred people working for those one hundred and twenty bosses 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:34.680 at the top of the pyramid. And then there were 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.360 twenty thousand unpaid rank and file members, most of them 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:40.960 who were just vuying to become a foot soldier. And 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:44.839 how well did that foot soldier dream job pay when just. 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:47.520 Foot soldier job that these twenty thousand people. 0:06:47.320 --> 0:06:51.760 Want, right, three dollars and thirty cents an hour, but 0:06:51.839 --> 0:06:53.080 you don't have to pay taxes. 0:06:55.400 --> 0:06:58.479 And again this is written in two thousand and five, 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.640 and this is I believe that's when they were out 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:04.200 actually speaking with these people. 0:07:04.400 --> 0:07:04.800 Mm hmm. 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.839 Yeah, So two thousand and five dollars. 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:13.880 So clearly not enough for regular international travel. Where does 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:19.600 this stuff actually come from? How does cocaine enter the US? 0:07:19.640 --> 0:07:22.240 How does heroin into the US and on and on 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:28.120 with these other drugs, especially when Uncle Sam ostensibly spends 0:07:28.440 --> 0:07:31.640 billions and billions of dollars just trying to stop the 0:07:31.720 --> 0:07:35.720 drug trade. How does it get here? One person thought 0:07:35.760 --> 0:07:38.640 he found the answer, and he was an investigative journalist 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:39.720 named Gary Webb. 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:40.200 So. 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.440 Gary Webb was born on August thirty first, nineteen fifty five, 0:07:43.520 --> 0:07:47.400 in Corona, California, and he wanted to be a writer 0:07:47.560 --> 0:07:49.960 from a very early age, where for the student newspaper 0:07:50.040 --> 0:07:53.440 at his college in Indianapolis. He ended up getting married 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.040 to him and named Susan Bell, and they went on 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:59.160 to have three kids together. And he first started getting 0:07:59.200 --> 0:08:03.160 into investigative reporting when a piece appeared in the Kentucky 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:05.840 Post in nineteen eighty called The Coal Connection. It was 0:08:05.880 --> 0:08:10.320 a massive series, a seventeen part series that he collabed 0:08:10.360 --> 0:08:13.600 on with a guy named Thomas Sheffey that looked at 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.360 ben you might know more about this the conspiracy surrounding 0:08:17.360 --> 0:08:19.520 a coal company. So he was already kind of early 0:08:19.600 --> 0:08:23.080 on into whistleblowing and kind of like this sort of 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:27.160 deep dive truth telling, trying to expose the ills of society. 0:08:26.760 --> 0:08:31.760 Right right, similar to that wonderful journalist we interviewed a 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:35.440 while back, Mark Periskia I believe his name was correct, Yeah, 0:08:35.600 --> 0:08:41.840 who did some fantastic work on the US government's arrangements 0:08:41.880 --> 0:08:45.880 with spies in the era of civil rights. This guy 0:08:46.080 --> 0:08:49.839 was a small town reporter who was breaking big stories, 0:08:50.240 --> 0:08:51.360 and that. 0:08:51.480 --> 0:08:55.120 Was a big deal, specifically about the assassination or the 0:08:55.240 --> 0:08:59.160 murder of a president of this coal company, and how 0:08:59.280 --> 0:09:02.280 this guy perhaps had some or he did have ties 0:09:02.320 --> 0:09:06.880 to organized crime. Like that's no small thing. You don't 0:09:06.880 --> 0:09:10.280 write about that and then not worry about writing about that. 0:09:10.800 --> 0:09:15.680 And as our friend Mark established earlier, the thing about 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:20.360 being an investigative journalist that's worth your salt is that 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:25.960 so much of the actual work is just verifying and 0:09:26.000 --> 0:09:29.960 triple checking every single syllable of every single sentence that 0:09:30.080 --> 0:09:32.560 is fit to print, and you have to do it 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.360 before it goes out to the masses. It turned out 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.319 that Gary Webb seemed to have a gift for this, 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.160 and that was just the beginning. His major work, the 0:09:42.160 --> 0:09:45.839 one that most of us listening and probably familiar with, 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:50.120 is something called The Dark Alliance, And over the years, 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:53.520 several people have kind of muddied the water of his 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.520 research and what he actually claimed. So it's very important 0:09:56.559 --> 0:09:58.600 for us to look at what he did do and 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.719 then also look at what he did not do precisely. 0:10:01.960 --> 0:10:05.600 So here's here's the gist. In nineteen ninety six, Gary 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:10.080 Webb writes a series of three articles for The Mercury News, 0:10:10.120 --> 0:10:12.640 which I believe was out in San Jose, San Jose. 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:17.160 So in these these three articles are pretty lengthy, and 0:10:17.200 --> 0:10:20.920 later they're all collected into a book named The Dark Alliance. 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:27.000 This it's difficult to explain how much of an impact 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.920 this made, so let's just go with what he says. 0:10:30.480 --> 0:10:34.400 In this series of articles. Gary Webb alleges and claims 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:38.560 that Nicaraguan contras are responsible for the Los Angeles crack 0:10:38.600 --> 0:10:41.040 cocaine epidemic of the nineteen eighties. 0:10:41.480 --> 0:10:42.360 It's a bold claim. 0:10:42.440 --> 0:10:46.040 Well, yeah and yeah, that they're responsible, but they're a 0:10:46.040 --> 0:10:47.400 bunch of other hands. 0:10:47.120 --> 0:10:50.440 Involved too, right, They're not working alone. He claims that 0:10:50.480 --> 0:10:54.679 the US's Central Intelligence Agency, your CIA, knew this was 0:10:54.760 --> 0:10:58.560 going on, knew there was an active and elaborate and 0:10:58.800 --> 0:11:02.760 very very robe bust drug trafficking network there, and at 0:11:02.760 --> 0:11:06.680 the very least, he says, the CIA ignored it. At worst, 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:11.840 he says they may have helped them actively covered up 0:11:11.880 --> 0:11:13.800 the crimes, met with the drug. 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.040 Lords, provided transportation. 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:20.360 Provided transportation. Shout out to what Air America, that's the one. 0:11:20.760 --> 0:11:24.960 So these allegations were pretty harsh, as you said, a 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:28.800 bold claim, But the thing is they weren't far fetched. 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:32.720 In South and Central America, it's not unusual for these 0:11:32.760 --> 0:11:36.000 separatist or revolutionary groups to turn to the drug trade 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:39.800 as a way to raise some cash. Other groups have 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.880 done it too, like FARC or the Shining Path and 0:11:42.960 --> 0:11:48.200 actually met FARK representatives who were very much against that process. 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:52.640 So all goes back to documentation, right, Gary Webb builds 0:11:52.679 --> 0:11:57.400 this case and he argues, somehow, as opposed to all 0:11:57.440 --> 0:12:00.720 the other drug running operations on that continent, somehow the 0:12:00.800 --> 0:12:04.280 contras are able to get cocaine into the US and 0:12:04.320 --> 0:12:07.800 then most importantly get cash out with a lot less 0:12:07.800 --> 0:12:10.520 of a hassle than other cartels or drug runners. 0:12:11.520 --> 0:12:15.479 Well, yeah, so they're saving a ton of money somehow 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:19.160 in this whole process, in the transportation, right hm. And 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.800 what that's allowing them to do, and this is where 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:24.200 it gets really bad for people who live in the 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:28.320 United States. This allows these groups to sell their product 0:12:28.400 --> 0:12:32.480 at a much much lower price than their competitors. 0:12:33.080 --> 0:12:36.880 Right, so you can't. It's like what a mom and 0:12:36.960 --> 0:12:40.760 pop store is trying to compete with a huge, big 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:44.160 box chain grocery store. They have the economy of scale 0:12:44.480 --> 0:12:47.520 that allows them to sell an apple for fifty cents, 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:49.920 whereas the mom and pop stores to sell it for 0:12:49.960 --> 0:12:50.400 a dollar. 0:12:50.600 --> 0:12:52.800 And why would you buy your apple for a dollar 0:12:52.840 --> 0:12:54.640 when you know you can get it for fifty cents. 0:12:55.000 --> 0:12:56.880 Maybe it's some more delicious apple. 0:12:56.920 --> 0:12:58.720 It's the exact same apple, my friend. 0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:00.520 I don't know. Maybe if you pay more for it, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:01.360 it tastes better. 0:13:03.040 --> 0:13:06.160 There's a study with wine that absolutely proves that, Yeah, 0:13:06.240 --> 0:13:09.360 that is true, calling out all samall yea's we'll go 0:13:09.440 --> 0:13:12.439 ahead and maybe publish that study on wine on Here's 0:13:12.440 --> 0:13:13.600 where it gets crazy later. 0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:18.600 But what if you're addicted to apples? Like, addicted to apples? 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:20.400 Are you still going to pay a dollar? 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:21.080 Well? 0:13:21.080 --> 0:13:23.319 I don't know, I mean it depends right, Like are 0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.160 you a connoisseur. 0:13:24.920 --> 0:13:27.520 Of apples or are you just eating like any old 0:13:27.559 --> 0:13:29.800 crab apple to scratch that unscratchable itch. 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:34.880 Yeah, there's different layers, there's different there's a hierarchy of addiction. 0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:37.120 Right, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.040 the crack epidemic probably was going more towards. 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:41.640 The crab apples. 0:13:41.840 --> 0:13:45.319 Yeah yeah, crack apples also just an unnecessary point here. 0:13:45.640 --> 0:13:49.000 I feel like red Delicious Apple is like a terribly 0:13:49.080 --> 0:13:51.480 ironic name because those are terrible apples. 0:13:51.640 --> 0:13:52.680 I don't like them either. 0:13:52.920 --> 0:13:57.200 They're kind of mushy. Yeah, you know, I don't get it. 0:13:57.280 --> 0:13:58.680 Fuji apples all day. 0:13:58.720 --> 0:14:00.040 For me, it's Granny Smith. 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.400 Andy Smith. I would not have figured you for a 0:14:02.400 --> 0:14:03.320 fan of tartness. 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:04.560 It's my favorite. 0:14:04.559 --> 0:14:07.480 What about that? Mean, man, it's a it's a tart apple. 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:08.880 No, I know, but why would you? Why would you 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:11.480 not think that Matt was a fan of tartness. 0:14:11.080 --> 0:14:16.720 Because Matt's Matt's palette runs more toward spicy. He's exploring extremes. 0:14:17.120 --> 0:14:18.160 That's exactly what it is. 0:14:18.160 --> 0:14:18.600 Interesting. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:20.360 My favorite tart is a Carl tart. 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:30.640 Though it's well done, well done, but uh but the 0:14:31.560 --> 0:14:35.120 character the argument still stays the same, right, Like he says, 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:43.600 obviously this, obviously someone is influencing the game that the 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:47.560 cartels are playing down there, and I have he says 0:14:47.680 --> 0:14:51.960 proof that the CIA is either again either ignoring it, 0:14:52.680 --> 0:14:56.520 maybe helping it, has met with cartel leaders and so on. 0:14:57.120 --> 0:15:00.000 But what before we get too far, let's ask her 0:15:00.000 --> 0:15:04.000 ourselves what he actually did not do After a word 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:06.560 from our sponsors. 0:15:11.360 --> 0:15:14.400 And we're back. So, the one thing that Gary Webb 0:15:14.720 --> 0:15:18.240 did not do by discussing these things in his three 0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:21.640 part series that would become The Dark Alliance, what he 0:15:21.680 --> 0:15:24.720 didn't do is break this story. He wasn't the first 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:28.960 person to talk about America's crack coming from other places, 0:15:29.000 --> 0:15:34.200 perhaps the contras, like specifically the Nicaraguan Contras, with perhaps 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:37.440 the CIA's approval. This was something that had already been 0:15:37.520 --> 0:15:41.640 kind of floating around. It was a theory in a way. 0:15:42.200 --> 0:15:46.160 He was just backing up these beliefs with some facts, 0:15:46.320 --> 0:15:49.200 or at least with as close to facts as he could. 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:51.600 Get, kind of fleshing out the picture. 0:15:51.720 --> 0:15:54.120 Right, Yeah, he's given you the details. He's zooming in 0:15:54.240 --> 0:15:55.480 with the camera a little bit. 0:15:55.800 --> 0:15:58.680 There we go. I like that he never claimed to 0:15:58.720 --> 0:16:02.680 have evidence that the CIA engineered the entire thing correct, 0:16:03.200 --> 0:16:06.360 only that they knew something was going on, they tacitly 0:16:06.400 --> 0:16:08.920 approved of it, and that they met with contra leaders 0:16:09.000 --> 0:16:11.640 and funders to talk about the money. 0:16:12.040 --> 0:16:13.520 Yeah, the fact of the matter is that there were 0:16:13.560 --> 0:16:17.720 a lot of kind of wild theories that shot off 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.080 from this reporting. And I know we'll get into some 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:23.000 of this little bit more, but Web was sort of 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:26.080 discredited and then sort of indicated, and he's been a 0:16:26.160 --> 0:16:29.560 very divisive figure in terms of like how rigorous his 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.880 fact checking was for some of this stuff. There's a 0:16:32.880 --> 0:16:35.160 piece an op ed in the Washington Post by they 0:16:35.200 --> 0:16:38.120 named Jeff Lean from twenty fourteen, who was their assistant 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.800 managing editor, and he basically you should read it for yourself. 0:16:40.840 --> 0:16:42.440 It's very interesting, but he kind of goes through in 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:48.600 shreds Web in terms of his abilities as a investigative 0:16:48.600 --> 0:16:52.120 reporter and said that he makes all of these incredible 0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.120 claims and that in order to make incredible claims like that, 0:16:55.160 --> 0:16:58.400 as a journalist, you have to have incredible evidence, right, 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.920 and he doesn't exist well. 0:17:00.960 --> 0:17:04.199 And then also what role do the editors play in that. 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.360 I'm glad you mentioned twenty fourteen because that's an important year. 0:17:07.480 --> 0:17:10.560 But let's let's get to the reaction of the initial 0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:16.359 publication too. So the media does conflate what Web is saying, 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:19.760 as as we mentioned, they say that Web is saying 0:17:19.840 --> 0:17:22.800 the CIA did it. Did it all smoking gun caught 0:17:22.840 --> 0:17:26.000 red handed. It was the CIA with the crack cocaine 0:17:26.440 --> 0:17:28.240 in the living room. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:32.359 As though they invented the substance for some nefarious purpose, 0:17:32.400 --> 0:17:35.280 to try to manipulate in the population into behaving a 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.400 certain way, or to incarcerate black men unfairly. 0:17:38.640 --> 0:17:41.000 Right, the biggest thing is that they were saying that 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.520 Web was saying. The news is saying that Web is 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.880 saying that the CIA is literally the drug dealer, which 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:51.080 he did not. He did not say that. I totally 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:51.480 get that. 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:54.320 I mean, it's and you know, it's kind of what 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:58.680 we're experiencing now with the quick turnaround of like internet reporting, 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:02.120 where it's very easy to conflate something in a properly 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.040 research story and turn it into something else for your 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:06.359 own purposes. Wouldn't have thought that would have been happening 0:18:06.400 --> 0:18:09.360 quite to this degree back then, But yet here we are. 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:12.200 This is back when the news was all made by 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:17.040 like organic meatbags called humans rather than bots and botnets, 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:17.520 you know what I. 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:23.960 Mean, and the day but then the days before deep fakes, 0:18:24.200 --> 0:18:29.160 which is a scary thing, right, Yes, so you're absolutely right, guys. 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.680 He he did get conflated. 0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:32.080 Now. 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:34.320 Well, and there's a whole other thing we're gonna talk 0:18:34.320 --> 0:18:36.879 about in there about Gary web sources, right, and the 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:39.280 people he was talking to that he couldn't actually cite 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:40.680 as being the source. 0:18:40.480 --> 0:18:42.800 Because they were so off the record. And then also 0:18:42.960 --> 0:18:45.080 on a related thing that we have to get to 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:49.520 maybe in a future episode, it's pretty easy to prove 0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:55.520 that on some level, the federal government, through multiple agencies, 0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:59.879 has been targeting the black community for a long time. 0:19:00.160 --> 0:19:02.680 I mean, the same amount of cocaine and the same 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:09.840 amount of crack cocaine carry wildly different minimum mandatory incarceration terms, right, 0:19:10.080 --> 0:19:10.960 Why would that. 0:19:11.080 --> 0:19:16.359 Be Hmmm, Matt's making sort of a smushed up face 0:19:16.440 --> 0:19:16.760 right now. 0:19:16.800 --> 0:19:24.680 It's very Hollywood. That's your Charlie Day in front of 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:29.080 the conspiracy law chain smoking accusation. I mean, it's a 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:34.280 good question though, and the reaction is immense. This is 0:19:34.320 --> 0:19:39.119 actually one of the first national security stories to really 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:45.960 blow up online to get people in the normal mainstream 0:19:46.080 --> 0:19:51.640 America intensely interested. It's twenty thousand words long. It enrages 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.720 black communities who are wondering, why are these epidemics happening? 0:19:56.080 --> 0:19:59.960 Why does it seem like there's more government punishment or 0:20:00.040 --> 0:20:03.560 harassment of the community rather than government assistance of a 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:09.000 community in trouble. And then there are congressional investigations excuse me, 0:20:09.080 --> 0:20:09.919 congressional hearings. 0:20:10.000 --> 0:20:13.560 Yeah, congressional hearings. But some of the biggest, at least 0:20:13.760 --> 0:20:18.040 most widely seen hearings or seen on television occur just 0:20:18.119 --> 0:20:23.560 within smaller communities within LA and other cities like that, 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:27.520 where there are people filling a room, a huge room, 0:20:27.560 --> 0:20:31.080 and they are just asking people how long have you 0:20:31.119 --> 0:20:33.600 known about the CIA dealing drugs? Like did you know 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.600 that CIA was dealing drugs? And they're asking their city officials, 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:39.760 and they're asking big names who are supposed to be 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:40.520 in charge of things. 0:20:40.720 --> 0:20:44.920 And again, Webb is in his you can see interviews 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.840 with him as well, where he essentially says that he 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:53.280 doesn't think the CIA was like wringing its hands Monty 0:20:53.320 --> 0:20:58.639 Burn's style and saying, oh you know what I mean. Yeah, 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.359 He says, instead, they just really wanted money, and they 0:21:02.400 --> 0:21:05.719 wanted off the books money anyway, Like if it hadn't 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:07.760 been this, it would have been something else. 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:12.760 They couldn't officially use the government's money to pay for 0:21:12.880 --> 0:21:14.160 what they were trying to do. 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:17.160 Because that's back when that kind of policy or law 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:19.600 actually stopped people from doing that sort of thing. 0:21:19.600 --> 0:21:22.760 Have we talked much about what the Contra affair was 0:21:22.880 --> 0:21:25.560 and why they were interacting with these militants who were 0:21:25.560 --> 0:21:29.560 like they were kind of like rogue militants. Basically, what 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:31.200 was the benefit there? 0:21:31.880 --> 0:21:34.080 Mentioned in a previous episode, But I think you're right, 0:21:34.119 --> 0:21:37.359 we should go ahead and just just give you the 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:38.159 quick and dirty. 0:21:38.240 --> 0:21:38.359 Right. 0:21:38.560 --> 0:21:41.760 It's also called Iran Gate, which is interesting, but here 0:21:41.800 --> 0:21:43.240 in the US we usually call it. 0:21:44.440 --> 0:21:48.159 The Iran Contra affair at the Thomas Crown affair. 0:21:48.560 --> 0:21:50.639 Yeah, So essentially, what are the contras. 0:21:50.280 --> 0:21:53.600 Men, Well, they were a group in Nicaragua and their 0:21:53.640 --> 0:21:56.880 whole point, or at least for the United States purposes, 0:21:57.640 --> 0:22:00.480 they were going to at least attempt to throw the 0:22:00.480 --> 0:22:01.760 Sandinista government. 0:22:01.720 --> 0:22:05.639 Which were socialist exactly. These are right wing rebel groups. 0:22:05.680 --> 0:22:11.840 So the US government tends to support right wing insurgents 0:22:12.240 --> 0:22:17.440 much more often than say left wing or anti capitalist insurgents. Basically, 0:22:17.520 --> 0:22:23.320 people are pro resource extraction tend to historically, I'm not 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:26.520 saying now, but tend to historically get more support from 0:22:26.560 --> 0:22:27.359 the US government. 0:22:27.640 --> 0:22:32.200 Yeah, and it's one of those things if everyone, if 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.520 everyone in a country is getting to kind of share 0:22:35.640 --> 0:22:40.480 the wealth in a more you know, sometimes communists, sometimes 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:43.919 socialists structures that occurs where everyone gets a little peace. 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:47.000 It's not so great when you could just control it 0:22:47.040 --> 0:22:47.800 from top. 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:50.240 Down, oh man. Of course, the top down approach. 0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:54.280 Of course, the infamous top down. So that sounds weird 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:56.480 when you see it that way. Yeah, sorry, miss top down, 0:22:56.600 --> 0:23:00.280 But all right. So the Iran contra affair occurs when 0:23:00.320 --> 0:23:03.600 the National Security Council of the US gets involved in 0:23:03.720 --> 0:23:09.280 secret weapon transactions and other activities that are prohibited by Congress. 0:23:09.920 --> 0:23:14.600 So Ronald Reagan, the Reagan administration, that's probably a better 0:23:14.600 --> 0:23:16.640 way to say it. The Reagan administration at the time 0:23:17.080 --> 0:23:22.119 is very concerned that communism will spread throughout Central America 0:23:22.520 --> 0:23:29.280 and challenge the capitalists or liberal hierarchy, that is, you know, 0:23:29.440 --> 0:23:33.680 challenge the hegemonic status. So the people of Nicaragua were 0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:38.240 particularly the Satinista Liberation movement they mentioned earlier in nineteen 0:23:38.280 --> 0:23:41.760 seventy nine, they overthrow the president who is actually a dictator. 0:23:42.160 --> 0:23:46.240 And now the Reagan administration is having there come to 0:23:46.320 --> 0:23:49.000 Jesus moment, as they would say in the South. So 0:23:49.320 --> 0:23:51.760 he thought this would eventually threaten the security of the 0:23:51.840 --> 0:23:54.080 United States. Remember we're still in the Cold War era 0:23:54.119 --> 0:23:59.600 at this time, and so the Reagan administration pushed huge 0:23:59.640 --> 0:24:03.080 amount of some military aid into not just Nicaragua, but 0:24:03.160 --> 0:24:06.560 other governments and other places that have civil wars and 0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:11.840 gorilla fighting in hopes of preventing a left wing government. 0:24:11.880 --> 0:24:15.320 And in the case of Nicaragua, they wanted to destabilize 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:20.959 that government and engineer and overthrow. So why is Iran 0:24:21.040 --> 0:24:21.520 in there, right? 0:24:22.760 --> 0:24:25.280 Iran? I don't understand. 0:24:25.560 --> 0:24:30.240 So they sold anti tank and anti aircraft missiles to Iran, 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:33.800 believing that if they sold the missiles to Iran, Iran, 0:24:33.960 --> 0:24:38.600 through its PROXYHBLAH, would allow hostages in Lebanon to be released. 0:24:38.840 --> 0:24:42.560 This is already very rupe. Goldberg sat so much, and 0:24:42.640 --> 0:24:46.280 so a portion of the money that Iran paid for 0:24:46.680 --> 0:24:50.280 was diverted and then given to the contrast. A lot 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.920 of this occurred under the supervision of a man who's 0:24:54.040 --> 0:24:57.000 very familiar to everyone, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North. 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.359 You may remember him from that famous hearing. Yeah it 0:25:02.440 --> 0:25:04.600 wasn't a hearing. I don't even know exactly what it was, 0:25:04.640 --> 0:25:07.520 but you can see video of him just admitting to 0:25:07.600 --> 0:25:08.600 this stuff. 0:25:08.320 --> 0:25:10.520 And feels like he did the right thing to stop 0:25:10.640 --> 0:25:15.880 the the ultimate war of ideology between the West and 0:25:16.920 --> 0:25:20.399 the communist countries. So the problem with this stuff is 0:25:20.400 --> 0:25:23.720 that while they're raising this money for the Contras, they're 0:25:23.800 --> 0:25:28.719 violating something called the Bowland Amendment BOLA and D, a 0:25:28.840 --> 0:25:31.159 law that was passed in nineteen eighty four that banned 0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:34.520 direct or indirect military aid to the contrast. So they're 0:25:34.560 --> 0:25:37.200 moving money in a sleazy way, yep, but they think 0:25:37.240 --> 0:25:38.200 they're doing the right thing. 0:25:38.440 --> 0:25:40.080 It's just a different kind of shell game. 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:41.919 It's kind of like, Yeah, it's kind of like the 0:25:41.960 --> 0:25:45.800 idea that the ends justify the means, or that there 0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:48.240 is a difference between what is legal and what is 0:25:48.560 --> 0:25:51.520 morally correct, and they felt like they were doing the 0:25:51.560 --> 0:25:55.520 moral thing. Okay, so that's around. Does that? 0:25:56.000 --> 0:25:58.000 Yeah, man, Yeah it does. And I knew some of 0:25:58.000 --> 0:26:00.240 that but not all of that. But it sounds to 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:01.919 me like the accusation here is that they would go 0:26:01.920 --> 0:26:05.359 to any means necessary to prop up this militant group 0:26:05.520 --> 0:26:10.320 that was potentially going to do good for our government 0:26:10.520 --> 0:26:15.520 in deposing this kind of pesky regime that was in 0:26:15.600 --> 0:26:19.880 place that was inconvenient regime, right, absolutely, and that would 0:26:19.880 --> 0:26:25.040 extend as far as Web's concern to funneling drugs in 0:26:25.080 --> 0:26:28.840 the United States knowingly in order to funnel some of 0:26:28.840 --> 0:26:31.080 that money into this cause that needed to be off 0:26:31.119 --> 0:26:33.440 books money, right, great. 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:39.199 Black budget stuff. Yeah, And so this accusation lights a 0:26:39.359 --> 0:26:45.400 flame under the American public and in a strange, not unprecedented, 0:26:45.800 --> 0:26:49.520 let's call it that not unprecedented show of solidarity. Various 0:26:49.560 --> 0:26:54.440 papers of note excoriate Web, the Washington Post before twenty fourteen, 0:26:54.480 --> 0:26:57.159 Like back when this was released, the Washington Post is saying, 0:26:57.440 --> 0:27:00.600 there are huge problems with the reporting, there's huge errors. 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:03.119 Why can't you cite who said that? Why can't you 0:27:03.359 --> 0:27:06.600 prove this claim that you're making? And then Web would 0:27:06.640 --> 0:27:09.080 go back and say, why I didn't make that claim? 0:27:09.240 --> 0:27:10.720 But he can't compete with New York Times. 0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:14.240 And in turn, Jerry sepos chepos I believe, who was 0:27:14.280 --> 0:27:18.080 the executive editor of The Mercury News, the paper that 0:27:18.359 --> 0:27:20.679 this piece was, the series of pieces were published in 0:27:21.160 --> 0:27:23.400 kind of threw Web under the bus, and he said, quote, 0:27:23.440 --> 0:27:26.880 we oversimplified the complex issue of how the crack epidemic 0:27:26.920 --> 0:27:30.399 in America grew through imprecise language and graphics because there 0:27:30.400 --> 0:27:32.280 are a lot of infographics in this piece as well, 0:27:32.480 --> 0:27:36.640 we created impressions that were open to misinterpretation. And that's 0:27:36.720 --> 0:27:40.840 the kicker, because it was that misinterpretation. Maybe Web didn't 0:27:40.880 --> 0:27:43.000 go quite as far as as some people might think 0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:44.680 if you actually read the work. But there's some quotes 0:27:44.680 --> 0:27:46.200 in here I I want to throw out too, to 0:27:46.200 --> 0:27:48.840 see what you guys think. But it was those other 0:27:49.560 --> 0:27:53.000 more quick to jump on a hot story, news outlets 0:27:53.359 --> 0:27:56.639 that kind of really just kind of made stuff up 0:27:56.640 --> 0:27:57.479 from whole cloth. 0:27:57.840 --> 0:28:00.679 Right, you can't defend yourself against the claim that you 0:28:00.760 --> 0:28:03.359 did not make other than saying you did not make that. 0:28:03.640 --> 0:28:07.600 And if you don't have a large enough microphone or platform, 0:28:08.080 --> 0:28:11.200 you're just not going to get your rebuttal out there. 0:28:11.359 --> 0:28:14.800 I mean, rebuttals and corrections are some of the most 0:28:14.840 --> 0:28:18.400 seldom read parts of any newspaper, and this a lot 0:28:18.560 --> 0:28:20.640 most of this is occurring in newspapers at the time. 0:28:20.680 --> 0:28:24.560 Although Web was prescient enough to put his work online 0:28:25.160 --> 0:28:25.600 real quick. 0:28:25.640 --> 0:28:28.920 He made a website. He did the surrounds these pieces 0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:31.320 like early On, which was which is not as much 0:28:31.359 --> 0:28:32.359 of a thing back then. 0:28:32.560 --> 0:28:34.520 Right, it was very as I say, he's very much 0:28:34.560 --> 0:28:38.120 an early adopter, and the communities that needed to find 0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:41.240 out about this, he actually drove a lot of them online. 0:28:41.280 --> 0:28:44.200 People who ordinarily wouldn't have cared about this found it 0:28:44.280 --> 0:28:47.680 as a safe way to arrive at information they felt 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:50.200 the government was trying to hide. It turns out. I 0:28:50.240 --> 0:28:53.560 want to go just quick to back to twenty fourteen, 0:28:54.000 --> 0:28:59.320 where the Washing Post republished or they published another criticism, 0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:01.120 which I I think is the op ed you're going 0:29:01.160 --> 0:29:04.200 to read from NOL. The CIA at the same year, 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:09.280 on September eighteenth, released a ton of documents spanning thirty years, 0:29:09.320 --> 0:29:14.960 three decades, and a lot of it confirmed confirmed stuff 0:29:15.000 --> 0:29:19.680 Gary Webb had argued. They show at least that there 0:29:19.800 --> 0:29:25.920 was collusion to in backstage, smoky room style collusion to 0:29:26.280 --> 0:29:28.960 try to suppress the story. One of the things that 0:29:29.080 --> 0:29:30.120 was released. 0:29:30.320 --> 0:29:31.320 This is in twenty fourteen. 0:29:31.720 --> 0:29:33.280 M One of the things that was released was an 0:29:33.360 --> 0:29:37.320 article that was six pages long titled Managing a Nightmare, 0:29:37.440 --> 0:29:41.600 CIA Public Affairs and the Drug Conspiracy Story. So this 0:29:42.400 --> 0:29:45.880 you can find this online. This looks at how the 0:29:45.920 --> 0:29:49.680 CIA reacted to what it saw as a huge public 0:29:49.720 --> 0:29:55.320 relations crisis or catastrophe and then showing that the agency 0:29:55.400 --> 0:29:59.200 actually didn't have to do much to extinguish the public 0:29:59.200 --> 0:30:03.760 outcry press the story, because you see, as we said, 0:30:03.840 --> 0:30:07.160 as I said, there are moments of not unprecedented solidarity 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:10.360 among papers of note, at least here in the US, 0:30:10.560 --> 0:30:13.920 probably in your country as well. Sometimes that happen, not 0:30:13.960 --> 0:30:16.920 all the time, but sometimes that happens because they have 0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:20.080 a relationship behind the scenes that you as the public, 0:30:20.120 --> 0:30:24.240 will never see with intelligence agencies in that country. So 0:30:24.440 --> 0:30:29.840 the CIA essentially contacts their higher ups in the world 0:30:29.920 --> 0:30:34.240 of media and publishing and they say, look, let's all 0:30:34.640 --> 0:30:35.840 vultroun up together. 0:30:35.600 --> 0:30:37.800 On get on the same page everybody. 0:30:37.480 --> 0:30:38.800 Like in jfk Assassination. 0:30:39.080 --> 0:30:41.680 Can I read a quote from yeah, web Pieces. 0:30:41.360 --> 0:30:43.800 Before you do that? Just noting in that same year, 0:30:43.880 --> 0:30:46.800 twenty fourteen, that's when the Jeremy Renner movie Kill the 0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:50.520 Messenger comes out. That's right, that's all about the Gary Webster. 0:30:50.640 --> 0:30:52.400 Do you guys see that. Yes, I hadn't even heard 0:30:52.400 --> 0:30:54.400 of it. Oh, it's is again. 0:30:54.480 --> 0:30:56.400 I really liked it, but only because we had done 0:30:56.400 --> 0:30:58.280 a video on it in the past. I knew the story. 0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:04.640 We're getting a lot of push I mean, it's I really. 0:31:04.480 --> 0:31:05.959 Enjoyed it had a built in audience. 0:31:06.040 --> 0:31:06.800 Yeah, fair enough. 0:31:07.160 --> 0:31:08.920 I just want to play out a couple of these 0:31:09.880 --> 0:31:11.959 some of these claims that I think are interesting when 0:31:12.000 --> 0:31:14.320 you read them. In one place from Gary Webb's Dark 0:31:14.360 --> 0:31:19.000 Alliance trilogy of articles that ultimately became a book. Quote, 0:31:19.000 --> 0:31:21.640 thousands of young black men are serving long prison sentences 0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:24.960 for selling cocaine, a drug that was virtually unobtainable in 0:31:25.040 --> 0:31:28.840 black neighborhoods before members of the CIA's army started bringing 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:31.640 it into South Central in the nineteen eighties at bargain 0:31:31.680 --> 0:31:36.360 basement prices. So, I mean, it is hyperbolic as hell. 0:31:36.640 --> 0:31:38.480 And the guy who wrote this op ed. The guy 0:31:38.600 --> 0:31:43.240 was talking about earlier, the twenty fourteen anyway, Jeff Leen, 0:31:43.280 --> 0:31:45.560 who was the assistant managing editor for The Washington Post. 0:31:45.680 --> 0:31:48.200 He calls that a nut graph, which I had never 0:31:48.240 --> 0:31:50.239 heard of. And I love this. And this is how 0:31:50.280 --> 0:31:54.360 he sums that up. What a nut graph is. He says, 0:31:54.360 --> 0:31:56.120 this was one of the most difficult things for a 0:31:56.120 --> 0:31:59.680 reporter to write, because you have to summarize some very 0:31:59.680 --> 0:32:05.000 out landish, outrageous facts and synthesize you know, the truth 0:32:05.040 --> 0:32:11.360 behind it, and somehow you know paint in the often 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:14.320 contradicting notions behind it. 0:32:14.320 --> 0:32:17.600 It's kind of like writing a blurb before the story's 0:32:17.640 --> 0:32:20.360 telling the audience why should I read this exactly? 0:32:20.440 --> 0:32:22.760 But it's also you know, he says, this is kind 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.320 of where web went off the rails and went a 0:32:25.320 --> 0:32:30.520 little too far, and he ultimately resigned from his position 0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:34.880 and was never hired again by any mainstream newspapers of 0:32:34.920 --> 0:32:36.840 note rights. And he just kind of went rogue and 0:32:36.880 --> 0:32:38.640 did his own thing. But he already kind of set 0:32:38.640 --> 0:32:41.160 the tone for doing that by making that website. Now 0:32:41.160 --> 0:32:43.760 he had this book, and he obviously had people that 0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:48.080 believed him and probably had a following outside of the 0:32:48.120 --> 0:32:48.920 mainstream press. 0:32:49.080 --> 0:32:51.120 Yeah, and also, you know, if the Internet had been 0:32:51.120 --> 0:32:53.680 more prominent at the time, things might have gone differently 0:32:53.720 --> 0:32:57.240 for him. He was also notoriously stubborn and at times 0:32:57.280 --> 0:33:01.840 difficult to work with. He started blaming his editors pretty quickly, 0:33:01.920 --> 0:33:07.480 so things became acrimonious between the Mercury editors and himself, 0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:12.880 but it did lead directly to a Senate subcommittee hearing 0:33:13.080 --> 0:33:17.120 where John Kerry was a senator at the time, investigated 0:33:17.200 --> 0:33:20.960 the AP's findings from the Associated Press, and they released 0:33:21.000 --> 0:33:25.400 in nineteen eighty nine, a report that was more than 0:33:25.440 --> 0:33:29.160 one thousand pages. It said it found quote considerable evidence 0:33:29.160 --> 0:33:31.400 that the Contras were linked to running drugs and guns 0:33:31.600 --> 0:33:33.840 and the US government knew about it. So that would 0:33:33.840 --> 0:33:38.600 mean that on that base level, some of what Web 0:33:38.680 --> 0:33:40.880 is saying is true. But the way that he's using 0:33:40.920 --> 0:33:46.920 these very highly dramatic phrases like calling the Contras the 0:33:47.000 --> 0:33:50.720 CIA's army, you know what I mean, that's that for 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:55.680 a lot of investigators, that makes it tougher to believe 0:33:55.960 --> 0:33:59.360 these other claims. So you're probably wondering why we're speaking 0:33:59.360 --> 0:34:01.560 about Gary Web in the past tense. And I know 0:34:01.600 --> 0:34:04.680 we're jumping around a lot right now. I guarantee you 0:34:04.720 --> 0:34:08.160 that previously we had a nice little timeline for painting 0:34:08.200 --> 0:34:11.239 the story. We've got a picture here. We're talking about 0:34:11.239 --> 0:34:15.000 Gary Webb in past tense because after all this stuff 0:34:15.200 --> 0:34:18.840 is occurring, he is largely considered to have failed his profession. 0:34:18.920 --> 0:34:21.839 He's essentially blacklisted from any job that he would want, 0:34:22.760 --> 0:34:26.560 and he's dire need of money. His characters being attacked 0:34:26.600 --> 0:34:30.040 and stuff. On December tenth of two thousand and four, 0:34:30.160 --> 0:34:32.960 he was found dead with two thirty eight caliber gunshot 0:34:32.960 --> 0:34:36.040 wounds to his head in his home in Carmichael, California, 0:34:36.239 --> 0:34:38.760 which he had just had to put on the market. 0:34:38.560 --> 0:34:39.840 Because he couldn't afford the mortgage. 0:34:39.880 --> 0:34:42.200 Right, because he couldn't afford the mortgage. Now, the coroner 0:34:42.440 --> 0:34:46.040 ruled that this death was a suicide. And Webb's ex wife, 0:34:46.080 --> 0:34:49.520 remember we noted her earlier, Susan Bell, She said that 0:34:49.600 --> 0:34:52.040 he had been very depressed after a falling out with 0:34:52.120 --> 0:34:55.960 his former employers at the Mercury, and a lot of 0:34:56.000 --> 0:35:01.480 people believe that being professionally discredited drove him to suicide 0:35:01.640 --> 0:35:04.879 and that his claims in the Dark Alliance were at 0:35:04.920 --> 0:35:10.160 the very least exaggerated, if not made up. So the 0:35:10.280 --> 0:35:13.040 question is, you know what happened. Did he break ethical boundaries? 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:15.360 Did he false fi information in order to sell a 0:35:15.440 --> 0:35:18.600 juicy story, could he not prove his claims his professional 0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:21.520 failure lead him to take his own life? Or is 0:35:21.560 --> 0:35:22.880 there more to the story. 0:35:23.320 --> 0:35:24.920 And we're going to talk about that right after a 0:35:24.960 --> 0:35:26.240 quick word from our sponsor. 0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:36.880 Here's where it gets crazy, Olhthough not really, because. 0:35:36.680 --> 0:35:40.320 We kind of jumped ahead. It's okay, it's okay. 0:35:40.360 --> 0:35:44.080 But so Gary Webb was right, he was correct, at 0:35:44.160 --> 0:35:48.760 least partially but probably but probably not all the way correct, because, 0:35:49.160 --> 0:35:52.160 as Lean says in that post op ed, you have 0:35:52.280 --> 0:35:55.560 mentioned nol Gary Webb was no journalism hero. Despite what 0:35:55.680 --> 0:35:58.640 kill the Messenger says, as Lean pointed out, there are 0:35:58.680 --> 0:36:00.759 a lot of things that are hyper, a lot of 0:36:00.760 --> 0:36:04.680 things he can't support. But we have to mention not 0:36:04.760 --> 0:36:08.040 only was he at least partially right, but despite the 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:13.040 hooplah and the controversy and character assassination, everybody knew that 0:36:13.160 --> 0:36:17.160 he was right beforehand because two other journalists had figured 0:36:17.200 --> 0:36:19.960 this out in nineteen eighty five, more than a decade 0:36:20.000 --> 0:36:24.000 before the Dark Alliance, journalists Robert Perry and Brian Barger 0:36:24.160 --> 0:36:29.880 or Barker, found and proved that Contra groups were trafficking 0:36:29.920 --> 0:36:33.239 cocaine to help finance their war in Nicaragua, which the 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:37.839 US also wanted to happen. And then after they came 0:36:37.880 --> 0:36:42.160 out with that, the Reagan administration launched a behind the 0:36:42.200 --> 0:36:47.279 scenes campaign to assassinate their character, remove their credibility as journalists. 0:36:47.600 --> 0:36:50.600 And it was an attempt to discredit any reporting on 0:36:50.760 --> 0:36:54.279 Contras and drugs. And there's an article by guy named 0:36:54.320 --> 0:36:57.280 Peter Kornblow who was writing for the Columbia Journalism review 0:36:57.280 --> 0:37:03.040 from nineteen ninety seven, who says whether the campaign was 0:37:03.120 --> 0:37:06.360 the cause of this suppression or not. Coverage of the 0:37:06.400 --> 0:37:09.600 story was minimal, but it did happen. 0:37:09.560 --> 0:37:12.799 Proved and it's crazy to think about this now, But 0:37:13.160 --> 0:37:19.240 on March fourth, nineteen eighty seven, the then President Reagan 0:37:19.360 --> 0:37:21.719 came out after not speaking to the American people for 0:37:21.760 --> 0:37:25.440 a long time during this whole Iran contra just scandal, 0:37:25.480 --> 0:37:27.960 I guess, is what you would call it. He came out, 0:37:27.960 --> 0:37:31.160 and he gave a speech, and let's just listen to 0:37:31.280 --> 0:37:32.759 one tiny little piece of that. 0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:36.719 First, let me say I take full responsibility from my 0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:41.000 own actions and for those of my administration. As angry 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:44.320 as I may be about activities undertaken without my knowledge, 0:37:44.880 --> 0:37:49.319 I am still accountable for those activities. As disappointed as 0:37:49.360 --> 0:37:51.960 I may be and some who served me, I am 0:37:52.000 --> 0:37:54.320 still the one who must answer to the American people 0:37:54.480 --> 0:37:58.320 for this behavior. And as personally distasteful as I find 0:37:58.400 --> 0:38:02.080 secret bank accounts and to funds, and as the Navy 0:38:02.080 --> 0:38:06.000 would say, this happened on my watch. Let's start with 0:38:06.040 --> 0:38:09.520 the part that is the most controversial. A few months ago, 0:38:09.640 --> 0:38:12.400 I told the American people I did not trade arms 0:38:12.400 --> 0:38:16.200 for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:19.520 me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell 0:38:19.600 --> 0:38:20.239 me it is not. 0:38:21.040 --> 0:38:24.040 So this was a big deal in Americans' minds. People 0:38:24.120 --> 0:38:27.040 knew about it. The President is going on television and saying, hey, 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:29.880 I didn't know this was happening. It was happening, but 0:38:30.120 --> 0:38:34.399 I didn't know what was happening. Everybody's cool, Okay, we'll just. 0:38:34.320 --> 0:38:39.560 Move forward, like plausible deniability or genuinely sincerely saying this 0:38:39.640 --> 0:38:41.440 occurred without my knowledge. 0:38:41.480 --> 0:38:44.919 Either way, he is already telling you in nineteen eighty seven, 0:38:45.000 --> 0:38:46.120 this is happening, and. 0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.600 It's kind of It's interesting. I really appreciate you play 0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:53.520 that clip because it's something that is somewhat plausible, because 0:38:53.560 --> 0:38:57.640 if you are at that high level, if you're the president, 0:38:57.960 --> 0:39:01.520 then a lot of things that you say are directives 0:39:01.640 --> 0:39:04.879 that are well what sometimes in corporate jargon we refer 0:39:04.960 --> 0:39:08.080 to as the forty thousand foot view. Yeah, it's like saying, well, 0:39:08.280 --> 0:39:15.080 make sure that communism doesn't spread in South and Central America. Okay, 0:39:15.200 --> 0:39:18.239 that sounds good, but you haven't. If you leave all 0:39:18.280 --> 0:39:20.720 the details up to other people, you have no idea 0:39:20.800 --> 0:39:23.360 what they're going to do. You have maybe a reasonable 0:39:23.360 --> 0:39:26.399 expectation that they will obey the law, but other than that, 0:39:26.800 --> 0:39:28.440 it's give me results. 0:39:28.600 --> 0:39:32.680 How badly does that person want to prove, like, do 0:39:32.800 --> 0:39:36.160 what you want them to do and make themselves look 0:39:36.200 --> 0:39:39.880 good in your eyes as the president? Because you just 0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:41.680 you don't know where that line is for everybody. It's 0:39:41.680 --> 0:39:42.480 different for everyone. 0:39:42.840 --> 0:39:46.120 And this leads to a question that I think a 0:39:46.120 --> 0:39:48.880 lot of people are still debated. We said, we said 0:39:48.920 --> 0:39:52.000 that his death was ruled as suicide, right, Yeah, we 0:39:52.160 --> 0:39:55.800 know that. We know that he died from two gunshot 0:39:55.800 --> 0:39:58.320 wounds to the head. A lot of people even today 0:39:58.400 --> 0:40:02.239 believe that Gary Webb was actually murdered and then his 0:40:02.360 --> 0:40:05.560 death was portrayed as a suicide to cover up further 0:40:05.640 --> 0:40:07.560 research you might have published. I mean, what do you 0:40:07.560 --> 0:40:09.840 guys think about that? Ever you've been reading. 0:40:09.560 --> 0:40:11.120 This, Yeah, there were a lot of rumors that he 0:40:11.200 --> 0:40:16.280 was perhaps working on another piece, another story, something bigger. 0:40:16.440 --> 0:40:20.480 Those are almost all rumors, almost all of them. And 0:40:20.520 --> 0:40:25.080 then everything you hear from his wife, and specifically from 0:40:25.080 --> 0:40:27.640 his wife at the time, just about the deep depression 0:40:27.680 --> 0:40:31.960 that he was suffering from in those moments right before 0:40:32.080 --> 0:40:36.480 he died. Hm, it does make you think perhaps this 0:40:36.680 --> 0:40:39.440 was a suicide. It just points to it, right, But 0:40:40.640 --> 0:40:43.320 let's just take a moment and put ourselves in his shoes. 0:40:44.200 --> 0:40:48.680 Imagine that you're a journalist. You're being contacted by people 0:40:49.480 --> 0:40:53.480 varying people of varying levels of involvement within the United 0:40:53.480 --> 0:40:57.200 States government and or clandestine organizations. They are telling you 0:40:57.320 --> 0:41:01.400 stories about things that have occurred. They're giving you specifics 0:41:01.600 --> 0:41:05.120 about stuff that's already in the public domain. It's stuff 0:41:05.160 --> 0:41:08.920 that's known, but they're giving you the full story. And 0:41:09.000 --> 0:41:12.840 simultaneously they're telling you you cannot publish my name you. 0:41:12.920 --> 0:41:14.759 No one can ever know that I'm talking to you. 0:41:15.120 --> 0:41:19.040 This cannot happen. And you are publishing these stories out 0:41:19.080 --> 0:41:21.279 because this is your big break. This is something that 0:41:21.320 --> 0:41:25.560 feels very important. There are thousands and thousands of lives 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:30.000 being affected by what these people are telling you, right, 0:41:30.360 --> 0:41:33.560 It is an important story to tell. The pressure that 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:37.040 Gary Webb was feeling and must have been feeling to 0:41:37.160 --> 0:41:40.279 put those stories out that would become dark Alliance. I 0:41:40.360 --> 0:41:42.799 cannot fathom what that must have felt like, but I 0:41:42.920 --> 0:41:45.440 know for sure that it was heavy. It was a 0:41:45.480 --> 0:41:48.400 heavy burden to bear for him, and it affected his 0:41:48.440 --> 0:41:53.439 family life and it affected his mental health in some way. 0:41:53.520 --> 0:41:55.799 Are there any indications that he got death threats and things? 0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:57.759 I mean, I would just assume so with being that 0:41:58.160 --> 0:42:01.919 public and such a divisive anti government story. 0:42:02.000 --> 0:42:04.000 That's a good question depending on who you believe. 0:42:04.320 --> 0:42:07.560 Right if you watch the movie, is definitely portrayed a lot. 0:42:07.800 --> 0:42:10.560 But well also in the movie, in the film Killing 0:42:10.560 --> 0:42:14.120 the Messengers, I heard it described in a review as 0:42:14.719 --> 0:42:18.480 it's a retelling of the Gary Web story in a 0:42:18.480 --> 0:42:21.080 place where everyone in a universe where everyone in the 0:42:21.120 --> 0:42:22.919 world is wrong except for Gary Web. 0:42:23.040 --> 0:42:27.080 Everybody believes Gary. Yeah, exactly exactly where Gary Web is right. 0:42:28.200 --> 0:42:31.920 But just from in I just I'm trying to identify 0:42:31.960 --> 0:42:34.880 with him, maybe a little more than I should, But 0:42:36.960 --> 0:42:40.600 I can imagine a place where being discredited after having 0:42:40.680 --> 0:42:44.000 such strong feelings about it being real and being important, 0:42:44.760 --> 0:42:47.279 would take a huge toll on not only your self 0:42:47.360 --> 0:42:50.200 esteem and self worth, but your ability to continue on. 0:42:50.680 --> 0:42:53.279 And one thing that a lot of people see as 0:42:53.280 --> 0:42:57.600 a smoking gun here is the fact that he died 0:42:57.640 --> 0:43:00.919 from not one, but two yes shots to the head. 0:43:01.520 --> 0:43:05.840 You might be surprised by how many people who attempt 0:43:06.520 --> 0:43:10.640 that sort of process do end up giving themselves ultimately 0:43:10.680 --> 0:43:14.120 a non fatal injury. But you know, it's never it's 0:43:14.120 --> 0:43:16.560 never going to be pretty. But one of one of 0:43:16.560 --> 0:43:20.200 the gunshots was through his cheek. Yeah, so they believe 0:43:20.280 --> 0:43:25.400 that maybe he missed and then went for a second shot. 0:43:25.680 --> 0:43:29.120 But because of that, because of the idea that two 0:43:29.160 --> 0:43:34.000 gunshot wounds the head, seemed unusual to a lot of people, 0:43:35.080 --> 0:43:40.280 the majority of whom are not forensic investigators. Obviously, there's 0:43:40.320 --> 0:43:44.200 this huge outcry and local reporters end up going to 0:43:44.360 --> 0:43:48.560 Sacramento County and they say, okay, what go on record, 0:43:48.600 --> 0:43:51.680 tell us what is this? And the coroner at the time, 0:43:51.719 --> 0:43:54.680 a guy named Robert Lyons, said, it is unusual. It 0:43:54.760 --> 0:43:57.759 is a suicide. It's unusual in a suicide case to 0:43:57.760 --> 0:44:00.319 have two shots, but it's been done in the past. 0:44:00.640 --> 0:44:04.080 It's in fact a distinct possibility. So he's saying it's 0:44:04.080 --> 0:44:08.279 definitely suicide. This has happened before, and that explanation is 0:44:08.520 --> 0:44:11.439 not good enough for people who thought there was more 0:44:11.480 --> 0:44:12.960 to the story, you know what I mean. 0:44:13.280 --> 0:44:18.160 Yeah, Well, there are you can hear versions of this 0:44:18.280 --> 0:44:21.800 story or read them online. Where he was attempting to leave, 0:44:22.400 --> 0:44:24.080 he was trying to get away, he was trying to 0:44:24.120 --> 0:44:26.719 sell his house. He was trying to leave and he 0:44:26.880 --> 0:44:30.000 was cocked before he could leave by whatever in nefarious forces. 0:44:30.400 --> 0:44:33.239 These claims have a zero evidence to back them up, 0:44:34.840 --> 0:44:37.960 but it you know, it's tough for me to completely 0:44:38.000 --> 0:44:41.560 discount them. But at the same time, it seems a 0:44:41.560 --> 0:44:44.080 lot less plausible than the official story. 0:44:44.840 --> 0:44:48.399 So here's yeah, and here's another question, just to show 0:44:48.440 --> 0:44:52.640 both sides here. If it was some sort of murder 0:44:52.680 --> 0:44:55.480 and if it was related to his investigations in the 0:44:55.560 --> 0:45:00.960 Dark Alliance, then why did they wait eight years after 0:45:01.000 --> 0:45:05.160 the publication of the book for him to take him 0:45:05.200 --> 0:45:08.800 out of the picture. The timeline is just strange. 0:45:09.000 --> 0:45:12.440 Yeah, the claims I've seen were that he was working 0:45:12.440 --> 0:45:14.880 on something else outside of the Dark Alliance, which is 0:45:14.880 --> 0:45:16.360 why it got him killed. 0:45:17.320 --> 0:45:22.200 And this argument in this discussion, this controversy continues in 0:45:22.239 --> 0:45:26.560 the modern day in twenty eighteen, as we record this 0:45:27.000 --> 0:45:29.760 in one of many of the American cities that still 0:45:29.800 --> 0:45:33.920 battle drug problems. Where's it all coming from? Is someone 0:45:34.000 --> 0:45:39.279 helping them out? Both sides of the argument. A lot 0:45:39.280 --> 0:45:43.160 of prominent papers do continue to attack Gary Webb's claims, 0:45:43.320 --> 0:45:46.800 or attack is a strong word, they take it apart 0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:50.439 piece by piece and say it didn't prove this. This 0:45:50.560 --> 0:45:54.160 is as you said earlier in old hyperbolic statement. And 0:45:54.680 --> 0:45:56.640 on the other side of this, and these are great 0:45:57.120 --> 0:46:01.320 valid points too, but on the other side, continuing releases 0:46:01.360 --> 0:46:06.879 of government documents keep supporting aspects of what he has said. 0:46:07.160 --> 0:46:08.560 Yeah, small little pieces. 0:46:08.800 --> 0:46:12.200 So it's there's no two ways about it, no bones 0:46:12.200 --> 0:46:13.840 about it. It's old beans to say it, but we 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:18.240 should admit the Dark Alliance does have several several prominent 0:46:18.360 --> 0:46:21.319 errors that could be critical to you know, like a 0:46:21.320 --> 0:46:24.480 critical wound to the argument in the book. But CIA 0:46:24.560 --> 0:46:27.440 documents released from the agency at least confirmed chunks of it. 0:46:27.920 --> 0:46:32.560 No one is arguing that the CIA showed often a 0:46:32.800 --> 0:46:36.399 very strange disinterest in the drug trade. Yeah, but how 0:46:36.440 --> 0:46:40.480 involved or not involved were they will future declassified documents 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:45.560 vindicate web from Beyond the Grave? Did the was the 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:51.279 murder something more indirect by ending his career? You know, 0:46:51.400 --> 0:46:53.880 it's like, did the CIA commit the murder and it 0:46:53.880 --> 0:46:57.000 was Gary Webb that pulled the trigger? M M it's 0:46:57.000 --> 0:46:58.680 I mean, it's a different way you look at it. 0:46:58.760 --> 0:47:02.360 But well, something you think about because that strategy of 0:47:04.000 --> 0:47:08.880 disinformation by giving a lot a lot of information to 0:47:09.040 --> 0:47:12.320 someone where almost all of it is true but a 0:47:12.360 --> 0:47:14.400 couple are not true, or almost all of it is untrue, 0:47:14.440 --> 0:47:17.719 but a couple of things are true, right that, And 0:47:17.760 --> 0:47:21.440 it makes you wonder if the way, especially if you 0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:24.680 look at it with the large chunks of unsupported claims 0:47:24.719 --> 0:47:26.000 that are in there, it makes you wonder if he's 0:47:26.040 --> 0:47:28.120 speaking to one or two people out of the groups 0:47:28.120 --> 0:47:32.640 of people, who is giving him incorrect information on purpose 0:47:33.080 --> 0:47:35.920 in order to in the future discredit him, which, like 0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:39.960 you said, Ben would then eventually lead to two gunshots 0:47:39.960 --> 0:47:41.560 to the head self inflicted. 0:47:43.320 --> 0:47:44.239 What do you what do you think? 0:47:44.960 --> 0:47:49.400 It's very suspicious circumstances. I really, you know, it's like 0:47:49.520 --> 0:47:53.440 cobaine level suspicious circumstances. You know, I don't know. I 0:47:53.480 --> 0:47:54.920 don't care for it. 0:47:54.920 --> 0:47:58.600 It's definitely it definitely has something something off about it. 0:47:58.640 --> 0:48:01.319 But the thing is as well, if you are the 0:48:01.400 --> 0:48:05.440 central intelligence agency, wouldn't you have the wherewithal to make 0:48:05.480 --> 0:48:06.840 a death look like an accident? 0:48:07.560 --> 0:48:08.040 Yeah? 0:48:08.120 --> 0:48:08.799 You know what I mean? 0:48:09.280 --> 0:48:12.359 Well maybe, And here's the other thing. If you're taken 0:48:12.400 --> 0:48:18.080 out by let's say, portions of the narcotics world, so 0:48:18.280 --> 0:48:21.480 higher ups in the drug you know, the drug I 0:48:21.480 --> 0:48:24.040 don't want to call them companies. What do you call organizations? Sure, 0:48:24.080 --> 0:48:27.319 these narcotics organizations. It's probably also not going to be 0:48:27.360 --> 0:48:30.080 that clean of a murder. 0:48:30.120 --> 0:48:33.520 Perhaps there's that it could be maybe sending a message, 0:48:33.560 --> 0:48:37.400 but it could have just been a suicide. I again, 0:48:37.480 --> 0:48:39.719 going back to this, make it look like an accident thing. 0:48:40.120 --> 0:48:44.600 It's a tragic truth that fatal car accidents happen multiple 0:48:44.640 --> 0:48:48.560 times every single day in this country. Yeah, and in 0:48:49.600 --> 0:48:54.359 most countries with dense populations and pedestrians and vehicles. So 0:48:55.440 --> 0:48:58.120 I'm still undecided. I know that the official story says 0:48:58.160 --> 0:49:01.480 that it was a suicide. His ex spouse said it 0:49:01.520 --> 0:49:05.040 was a suicide. It is possible to shoot yourself twice 0:49:05.840 --> 0:49:10.200 in the act of committing this, But don't I want 0:49:10.200 --> 0:49:13.920 to Let's what do you think, fellow conspiracy realist, to 0:49:14.520 --> 0:49:17.600 tell us, tell us your take on this. 0:49:17.880 --> 0:49:21.960 It just makes you Here's my plea to anyone listening 0:49:22.000 --> 0:49:24.759 to this who wants to be an investigative journalist or 0:49:24.800 --> 0:49:29.400 is an investigative journalist. If if you are working on 0:49:29.480 --> 0:49:33.400 anything that becomes highly important ever in your life, please 0:49:33.680 --> 0:49:37.680 whatever the circumstances are, No, it's never bad enough to 0:49:37.680 --> 0:49:40.319 where you need to take your own life. Just know 0:49:40.440 --> 0:49:43.240 that it's never going to get that dark. It cannot. 0:49:44.080 --> 0:49:48.480 You are worth it, stick around and these kind of 0:49:48.480 --> 0:49:51.720 claims won't have to be looked at in the future. 0:49:51.880 --> 0:49:53.879 And of course, I mean if you are feeling even 0:49:54.040 --> 0:49:57.879 remotely in that way, there are people that can help. 0:49:57.960 --> 0:50:00.840 I mean, there's the suicide Prevention Hotline, and you can 0:50:00.960 --> 0:50:04.080 find a social worker or some kind of group where 0:50:04.080 --> 0:50:05.640 you can talk to people that are going through similar 0:50:05.680 --> 0:50:08.040 things than you. I mean, at the risk of sounding 0:50:08.120 --> 0:50:10.759 cheesy and hyperbolic, I mean, you're never as alone as 0:50:10.760 --> 0:50:12.919 you might think. And I say that as someone who's 0:50:12.960 --> 0:50:17.080 dealt with suicide in my life and people with suicidal aviations, 0:50:17.080 --> 0:50:20.279 and it's absolutely not the end all be all, even 0:50:20.280 --> 0:50:21.160 if it feels that way. 0:50:21.680 --> 0:50:24.200 Well said, and I don't think that's hyperbolic or cheesy 0:50:24.239 --> 0:50:26.920 at all. I think that was very well said. And 0:50:27.200 --> 0:50:30.359 if you ever feel like reaching out, if you ever 0:50:30.560 --> 0:50:33.959 just want someone to chat to, we are all over 0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:34.640 the internet. 0:50:34.800 --> 0:50:38.840 Yeah, you can find us Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, Conspiracy 0:50:38.880 --> 0:50:42.279 Stuff show on Instagram, Facebook, Conspiracy Stuff. You can find 0:50:42.320 --> 0:50:45.080 us there. Join our Facebook group if you're interested in 0:50:45.160 --> 0:50:46.440 you like the show, you want to talk to other 0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:49.920 like minded people who can have just fantastic discussions. We've 0:50:49.920 --> 0:50:52.439 been having a lot this past week with everyone there. 0:50:52.920 --> 0:50:55.600 It's called Here's Where It Gets Crazy. That's our Facebook 0:50:55.600 --> 0:50:56.560 group Find It and. 0:50:56.480 --> 0:50:57.840 All you have to do to be a member is 0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:01.359 name the three hosts of the show, and occasionally our 0:51:01.400 --> 0:51:04.359 amazing moderators will send us screenshots of some really funny ones. 0:51:04.880 --> 0:51:07.239 And here's here's the latest. So who are the hosts 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:09.640 of the podcast? Stuff they don't want you to know? Answer? 0:51:09.880 --> 0:51:14.279 Benjamin Bowtie bowling for soup, bowling matteas Fred Trump was 0:51:14.320 --> 0:51:17.720 the Lizard King Frederick Noel take me down to Funky 0:51:17.760 --> 0:51:18.440 Town Brown. 0:51:18.880 --> 0:51:19.880 Wow, that's great. 0:51:20.200 --> 0:51:22.480 Who was a guy named Tristan? 0:51:22.920 --> 0:51:24.840 Tristan McNeill, No different Tristan? 0:51:24.840 --> 0:51:29.760 Okay, Yeah, I mean that's true, isn't it? Like Noel Matt. Honestly, 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:34.240 if we think an answer is funny enough the Mouds. 0:51:34.280 --> 0:51:38.000 While you're listening, I apologize, Cat Zach Sam Coop. If 0:51:39.040 --> 0:51:42.280 if we think there's something funny enough that we'll probably 0:51:42.360 --> 0:51:42.799 let it in. 0:51:43.200 --> 0:51:45.360 Yeah, that's definitely my policy. 0:51:46.080 --> 0:51:48.279 And while we're on the while we're on the feel 0:51:48.320 --> 0:51:51.920 good train here, we would like to give a big 0:51:51.960 --> 0:51:57.759 shout out to our youngest fan, I believe Eliza and Ray, 0:51:57.960 --> 0:52:01.200 who was born to Nicholas Ray and his wife just 0:52:01.239 --> 0:52:04.520 a few days ago as we record this. Wow, and 0:52:04.560 --> 0:52:08.439 so congratulations Ray family. You asked us for a shout out. 0:52:08.480 --> 0:52:12.480 And remember you promised the one day you would play 0:52:12.520 --> 0:52:13.759 this episode for your kid. 0:52:15.160 --> 0:52:17.840 Yeah, the whole Gary web story. Why do I have 0:52:17.880 --> 0:52:18.239 to do that? 0:52:18.280 --> 0:52:18.879 Why did I play? 0:52:19.440 --> 0:52:19.560 No? 0:52:20.480 --> 0:52:23.560 Yeah, just player the end. Just wait until she's wait 0:52:23.640 --> 0:52:26.440 until she's an adult or if people still listen to 0:52:26.520 --> 0:52:28.800 podcast at that time, then no. I mean, we're finne 0:52:28.840 --> 0:52:32.080 with you. You don't have to absolutely, absolutely do not 0:52:32.120 --> 0:52:34.759 feel obligated to play this for but we just wanted 0:52:34.800 --> 0:52:35.920 to say congratulations. 0:52:36.200 --> 0:52:40.640 Absolutely, and that's the end of this classic episode. If 0:52:40.680 --> 0:52:44.759 you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you 0:52:44.800 --> 0:52:46.880 can get into contact with us in a number of 0:52:46.880 --> 0:52:48.960 different ways. One of the best is to give us 0:52:49.000 --> 0:52:53.480 a call. Our number is one eight three three std WYTK. 0:52:53.960 --> 0:52:55.759 If you don't want to do that, you can send 0:52:55.840 --> 0:52:57.240 us a good old fashioned email. 0:52:57.480 --> 0:52:59.920 We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio. 0:53:01.800 --> 0:53:03.880 Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production 0:53:03.960 --> 0:53:08.479 of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 0:53:08.600 --> 0:53:11.440 Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.