1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: Welcome back to the classics. Fellow conspiracy realist. If you

2
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:05,920
Speaker 1: are a longtime listener, there is a name that you

3
00:00:06,080 --> 00:00:10,320
Speaker 1: know and know very well. No, not Intern Steve, although

4
00:00:10,320 --> 00:00:14,240
Speaker 1: shout out to him. Instead, we're talking about Gary Webb.

5
00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:16,799
Speaker 1: Who is Gary Webb? Or who was he?

6
00:00:17,160 --> 00:00:21,760
Speaker 2: Yeah? How is he connected to Freeway? What is it Rick?

7
00:00:22,079 --> 00:00:25,560
Speaker 2: Not the Rick Ross rapper, but Freeway Rick Ross?

8
00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:25,919
Speaker 3: Yeah?

9
00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, the guy who was actually moving lots and lots

10
00:00:29,280 --> 00:00:32,479
Speaker 2: of drugs allegedly according to his story for the government.

11
00:00:34,159 --> 00:00:38,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Gary Webb's an investigative journalist who for a long

12
00:00:38,360 --> 00:00:41,400
Speaker 1: time worked for an outfit called the Mercury News. And

13
00:00:41,479 --> 00:00:45,240
Speaker 1: he is the guy who brought to the American public

14
00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:50,480
Speaker 1: the idea that the CIA was fueling the crack cocaine

15
00:00:50,560 --> 00:00:57,440
Speaker 1: epidemic in the United States. Ultimately, Gary Webb died from

16
00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,880
Speaker 1: two gunshots to the heads.

17
00:01:00,520 --> 00:01:05,560
Speaker 2: Deemed a suicide, well officially, but come on now, well

18
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,679
Speaker 2: this feels weird to me. Let's look into it. By

19
00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,480
Speaker 2: the way, when every time I see the phrase Dark Alliance,

20
00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:17,280
Speaker 2: thankfully now I have this association to Gary Webb. But

21
00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:20,679
Speaker 2: it was a Balder's Gate video game that came out

22
00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,560
Speaker 2: a long time ago. That's right, called Balder's Gate Dark Alliance.

23
00:01:24,720 --> 00:01:28,880
Speaker 2: So then I imagined an isometric action adventure RPG. But

24
00:01:29,200 --> 00:01:32,119
Speaker 2: thankfully again Gary Webb is here to help us.

25
00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,400
Speaker 1: Now I'm imagining both of them. What is Dark Alliance

26
00:01:36,520 --> 00:01:37,880
Speaker 1: really trying to tell us?

27
00:01:38,760 --> 00:01:43,240
Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies, history is

28
00:01:43,319 --> 00:01:47,640
Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or

29
00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:49,680
Speaker 3: learn the stuff they don't want you to know.

30
00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:04,840
Speaker 2: Hey, guys, I love the podcast and I'm usually a

31
00:02:04,920 --> 00:02:06,520
Speaker 2: huge fan of your work, but I have to say

32
00:02:06,520 --> 00:02:09,080
Speaker 2: I just listened to the Cryptids of Australia episode and

33
00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:12,480
Speaker 2: I was very disappointed. At the beginning you mentioned that

34
00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:15,400
Speaker 2: you did the Cryptid math. I can't believe no one

35
00:02:15,400 --> 00:02:18,720
Speaker 2: took this opportunity to say you did the monster math.

36
00:02:19,040 --> 00:02:20,200
Speaker 2: I expect better.

37
00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:23,239
Speaker 4: That wasn't dad joke, missed opportunity.

38
00:02:23,360 --> 00:02:24,360
Speaker 1: That was from Devin.

39
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,960
Speaker 2: My name's Matt, my name's Nol.

40
00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,560
Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined with our super

41
00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:33,440
Speaker 1: producer Paul Decktt. Most importantly, you are you. You are

42
00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,720
Speaker 1: here that makes this stuff they don't want you to know.

43
00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:37,119
Speaker 4: Matt.

44
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:40,120
Speaker 2: That was new was that you're trying something out, just

45
00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:40,760
Speaker 2: messing around.

46
00:02:40,840 --> 00:02:43,480
Speaker 4: It's like a cold open kind of in a weird way,

47
00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:45,440
Speaker 4: unrelated entirely.

48
00:02:45,440 --> 00:02:47,120
Speaker 2: Just you know, calling us out for not doing the

49
00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:48,240
Speaker 2: monster math. It's cool.

50
00:02:48,360 --> 00:02:51,600
Speaker 1: Well, also calling us out for maybe not doing our

51
00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 1: due diligence, which is something that's going to come up

52
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:57,840
Speaker 1: a lot in this episode in particular. Right, you can

53
00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:01,640
Speaker 1: say all sorts of things, but can you prove them?

54
00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:04,400
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe let's start this way. So the

55
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:07,520
Speaker 1: four of us live and record in the Atlanta area,

56
00:03:08,000 --> 00:03:11,640
Speaker 1: and Atlanta, in a huge burst of good news, has

57
00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:16,680
Speaker 1: a tremendous drug problem. Yeah, Like, as we're recording and

58
00:03:16,800 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 1: be sarcastic, but as we're recording this, not more than

59
00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,400
Speaker 1: three or four hundred yards away from the studio we're

60
00:03:23,400 --> 00:03:26,360
Speaker 1: in right now, there is more than likely someone on

61
00:03:26,400 --> 00:03:29,440
Speaker 1: a backstreet doing a hard drug of some sort, and

62
00:03:29,520 --> 00:03:32,519
Speaker 1: maybe on a main street. There are also probably several

63
00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,160
Speaker 1: people on street corners in the same vicinity selling these drugs.

64
00:03:37,880 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 1: And if you live in a large American city, areas

65
00:03:41,680 --> 00:03:46,680
Speaker 1: of your local metropolis almost definitely have areas where drug

66
00:03:46,760 --> 00:03:50,720
Speaker 1: problems are endemic and there are huge issues with trying

67
00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 1: to address it. But here's the big question, where does

68
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,000
Speaker 1: all of this come from? You know what I mean,

69
00:03:56,360 --> 00:04:01,120
Speaker 1: The local corner drug dealer is almost certainly not flying

70
00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:04,600
Speaker 1: to the Golden Triangle or flying to South America on

71
00:04:04,640 --> 00:04:09,200
Speaker 1: a weekly basis to sell somebody like heroin or cocaine

72
00:04:09,240 --> 00:04:12,160
Speaker 1: at ten bucks a pop. It's just the plane tickets

73
00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:14,360
Speaker 1: too expensive. It economically doesn't make sense.

74
00:04:14,600 --> 00:04:18,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that person or group of people selling drugs

75
00:04:18,880 --> 00:04:21,359
Speaker 2: on the corner aren't also on those flights purchasing the

76
00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:25,000
Speaker 2: large quantities of cocaine or whatever, then flying all of

77
00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:27,680
Speaker 2: that stuff back to the United States, then processing it

78
00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:31,760
Speaker 2: into let's say, crack cocaine, which is a process, and

79
00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:35,040
Speaker 2: then like you said, selling it for that low amount

80
00:04:35,080 --> 00:04:35,480
Speaker 2: of money.

81
00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:39,960
Speaker 1: Right. And there's an excellent study that Freakonomics did a

82
00:04:39,960 --> 00:04:44,240
Speaker 1: while back. We're big fans of Freakonomics that busted the

83
00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 1: myth the drug dealers make tons and tons of cash.

84
00:04:48,200 --> 00:04:51,760
Speaker 1: Actually you would be. You might be incredibly surprised by

85
00:04:51,839 --> 00:04:55,040
Speaker 1: how little drug dealers, most drug dealers actually make.

86
00:04:55,080 --> 00:04:56,680
Speaker 4: It kind of reminds me of that thing we talked

87
00:04:56,680 --> 00:05:00,919
Speaker 4: about ben off Mic about how little money bank robbers

88
00:05:00,960 --> 00:05:03,240
Speaker 4: probably make. You know, it's this notion that they're just

89
00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:06,479
Speaker 4: cleaning it up, but in fact, banks don't keep that

90
00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,320
Speaker 4: much money on hand, and to make a decent living,

91
00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,280
Speaker 4: like even like a relatively decent living, you would have

92
00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,239
Speaker 4: to your success rate would have to be one hundred percent,

93
00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,839
Speaker 4: and you would have to, you know, do a certain

94
00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:17,000
Speaker 4: amount of heists every.

95
00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,960
Speaker 1: Year with a certain amount of people, a certain amount

96
00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:19,279
Speaker 1: of people.

97
00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:21,400
Speaker 4: Not that it's related one to one, but you'd think

98
00:05:21,440 --> 00:05:24,520
Speaker 4: that drug dealers, you know, there's this cliche notion that

99
00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:28,640
Speaker 4: they're raking in the cash. But I'm interested in your stats, Ben, Oh.

100
00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, there's there's the article from La Times that

101
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:35,320
Speaker 2: it's literally titled why drug dealers live with their moms,

102
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:38,800
Speaker 2: and it goes into what you're talking about here, how

103
00:05:39,000 --> 00:05:42,400
Speaker 2: very little most of the people actually selling the drugs make.

104
00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:44,599
Speaker 1: Now I don't want to. I can toot my own

105
00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:46,680
Speaker 1: horn a little bit on the bank heist thing too,

106
00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:50,000
Speaker 1: which I think they are related, mainly because I wrote

107
00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:52,800
Speaker 1: the video, but I think someone else appeared in it.

108
00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:55,040
Speaker 1: We did a brain stuff video way back in the

109
00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:57,719
Speaker 1: day about why you shouldn't rob a bank and you

110
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,200
Speaker 1: can find the bank stats there, but they're they're sobering

111
00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:05,279
Speaker 1: and somber, and we see the same thing with drug dealers.

112
00:06:05,320 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 1: There's a quick excerpt we could read here the top

113
00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,560
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty men on the Black Disciples pyramid.

114
00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:15,479
Speaker 1: That's the hierarchy of the gang. Right, we're paid very well,

115
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,240
Speaker 1: but the pyramid they sat at top was gigantic. So

116
00:06:18,320 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 1: if you use this franchise from a guy named JT.

117
00:06:21,160 --> 00:06:24,479
Speaker 1: They mentioned earlier in the article, the franchise had three

118
00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:29,600
Speaker 1: officers and fifty foot soldiers. There were about five three

119
00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,839
Speaker 1: hundred people working for those one hundred and twenty bosses

120
00:06:32,880 --> 00:06:34,680
Speaker 1: at the top of the pyramid. And then there were

121
00:06:34,680 --> 00:06:38,360
Speaker 1: twenty thousand unpaid rank and file members, most of them

122
00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:40,960
Speaker 1: who were just vuying to become a foot soldier. And

123
00:06:41,040 --> 00:06:44,839
Speaker 1: how well did that foot soldier dream job pay when just.

124
00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:47,520
Speaker 2: Foot soldier job that these twenty thousand people.

125
00:06:47,320 --> 00:06:51,760
Speaker 1: Want, right, three dollars and thirty cents an hour, but

126
00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,080
Speaker 1: you don't have to pay taxes.

127
00:06:55,400 --> 00:06:58,479
Speaker 2: And again this is written in two thousand and five,

128
00:06:58,760 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 2: and this is I believe that's when they were out

129
00:07:02,760 --> 00:07:04,200
Speaker 2: actually speaking with these people.

130
00:07:04,400 --> 00:07:04,800
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.

131
00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:07,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, So two thousand and five dollars.

132
00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:13,880
Speaker 1: So clearly not enough for regular international travel. Where does

133
00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:19,600
Speaker 1: this stuff actually come from? How does cocaine enter the US?

134
00:07:19,640 --> 00:07:22,240
Speaker 1: How does heroin into the US and on and on

135
00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:28,120
Speaker 1: with these other drugs, especially when Uncle Sam ostensibly spends

136
00:07:28,440 --> 00:07:31,640
Speaker 1: billions and billions of dollars just trying to stop the

137
00:07:31,720 --> 00:07:35,720
Speaker 1: drug trade. How does it get here? One person thought

138
00:07:35,760 --> 00:07:38,640
Speaker 1: he found the answer, and he was an investigative journalist

139
00:07:38,760 --> 00:07:39,720
Speaker 1: named Gary Webb.

140
00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:40,200
Speaker 5: So.

141
00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,440
Speaker 4: Gary Webb was born on August thirty first, nineteen fifty five,

142
00:07:43,520 --> 00:07:47,400
Speaker 4: in Corona, California, and he wanted to be a writer

143
00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 4: from a very early age, where for the student newspaper

144
00:07:50,040 --> 00:07:53,440
Speaker 4: at his college in Indianapolis. He ended up getting married

145
00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 4: to him and named Susan Bell, and they went on

146
00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:59,160
Speaker 4: to have three kids together. And he first started getting

147
00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,160
Speaker 4: into investigative reporting when a piece appeared in the Kentucky

148
00:08:03,200 --> 00:08:05,840
Speaker 4: Post in nineteen eighty called The Coal Connection. It was

149
00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:10,320
Speaker 4: a massive series, a seventeen part series that he collabed

150
00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:13,600
Speaker 4: on with a guy named Thomas Sheffey that looked at

151
00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,360
Speaker 4: ben you might know more about this the conspiracy surrounding

152
00:08:17,360 --> 00:08:19,520
Speaker 4: a coal company. So he was already kind of early

153
00:08:19,600 --> 00:08:23,080
Speaker 4: on into whistleblowing and kind of like this sort of

154
00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:27,160
Speaker 4: deep dive truth telling, trying to expose the ills of society.

155
00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:31,760
Speaker 1: Right right, similar to that wonderful journalist we interviewed a

156
00:08:31,760 --> 00:08:35,440
Speaker 1: while back, Mark Periskia I believe his name was correct, Yeah,

157
00:08:35,600 --> 00:08:41,840
Speaker 1: who did some fantastic work on the US government's arrangements

158
00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:45,880
Speaker 1: with spies in the era of civil rights. This guy

159
00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:49,839
Speaker 1: was a small town reporter who was breaking big stories,

160
00:08:50,240 --> 00:08:51,360
Speaker 1: and that.

161
00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:55,120
Speaker 2: Was a big deal, specifically about the assassination or the

162
00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:59,160
Speaker 2: murder of a president of this coal company, and how

163
00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:02,280
Speaker 2: this guy perhaps had some or he did have ties

164
00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:06,880
Speaker 2: to organized crime. Like that's no small thing. You don't

165
00:09:06,880 --> 00:09:10,280
Speaker 2: write about that and then not worry about writing about that.

166
00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,680
Speaker 1: And as our friend Mark established earlier, the thing about

167
00:09:16,200 --> 00:09:20,360
Speaker 1: being an investigative journalist that's worth your salt is that

168
00:09:21,720 --> 00:09:25,960
Speaker 1: so much of the actual work is just verifying and

169
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:29,960
Speaker 1: triple checking every single syllable of every single sentence that

170
00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:32,560
Speaker 1: is fit to print, and you have to do it

171
00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:35,360
Speaker 1: before it goes out to the masses. It turned out

172
00:09:35,400 --> 00:09:38,319
Speaker 1: that Gary Webb seemed to have a gift for this,

173
00:09:38,800 --> 00:09:42,160
Speaker 1: and that was just the beginning. His major work, the

174
00:09:42,160 --> 00:09:45,839
Speaker 1: one that most of us listening and probably familiar with,

175
00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:50,120
Speaker 1: is something called The Dark Alliance, And over the years,

176
00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:53,520
Speaker 1: several people have kind of muddied the water of his

177
00:09:53,640 --> 00:09:56,520
Speaker 1: research and what he actually claimed. So it's very important

178
00:09:56,559 --> 00:09:58,600
Speaker 1: for us to look at what he did do and

179
00:09:58,600 --> 00:10:01,719
Speaker 1: then also look at what he did not do precisely.

180
00:10:01,960 --> 00:10:05,600
Speaker 1: So here's here's the gist. In nineteen ninety six, Gary

181
00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:10,080
Speaker 1: Webb writes a series of three articles for The Mercury News,

182
00:10:10,120 --> 00:10:12,640
Speaker 1: which I believe was out in San Jose, San Jose.

183
00:10:13,280 --> 00:10:17,160
Speaker 1: So in these these three articles are pretty lengthy, and

184
00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,920
Speaker 1: later they're all collected into a book named The Dark Alliance.

185
00:10:22,559 --> 00:10:27,000
Speaker 1: This it's difficult to explain how much of an impact

186
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,920
Speaker 1: this made, so let's just go with what he says.

187
00:10:30,480 --> 00:10:34,400
Speaker 1: In this series of articles. Gary Webb alleges and claims

188
00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,560
Speaker 1: that Nicaraguan contras are responsible for the Los Angeles crack

189
00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,040
Speaker 1: cocaine epidemic of the nineteen eighties.

190
00:10:41,480 --> 00:10:42,360
Speaker 4: It's a bold claim.

191
00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:46,040
Speaker 2: Well, yeah and yeah, that they're responsible, but they're a

192
00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:47,400
Speaker 2: bunch of other hands.

193
00:10:47,120 --> 00:10:50,440
Speaker 1: Involved too, right, They're not working alone. He claims that

194
00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,679
Speaker 1: the US's Central Intelligence Agency, your CIA, knew this was

195
00:10:54,760 --> 00:10:58,560
Speaker 1: going on, knew there was an active and elaborate and

196
00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,760
Speaker 1: very very robe bust drug trafficking network there, and at

197
00:11:02,760 --> 00:11:06,680
Speaker 1: the very least, he says, the CIA ignored it. At worst,

198
00:11:06,880 --> 00:11:11,840
Speaker 1: he says they may have helped them actively covered up

199
00:11:11,880 --> 00:11:13,800
Speaker 1: the crimes, met with the drug.

200
00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:16,040
Speaker 2: Lords, provided transportation.

201
00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:20,360
Speaker 1: Provided transportation. Shout out to what Air America, that's the one.

202
00:11:20,760 --> 00:11:24,960
Speaker 1: So these allegations were pretty harsh, as you said, a

203
00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:28,800
Speaker 1: bold claim, But the thing is they weren't far fetched.

204
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,720
Speaker 1: In South and Central America, it's not unusual for these

205
00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,000
Speaker 1: separatist or revolutionary groups to turn to the drug trade

206
00:11:36,360 --> 00:11:39,800
Speaker 1: as a way to raise some cash. Other groups have

207
00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:42,880
Speaker 1: done it too, like FARC or the Shining Path and

208
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:48,200
Speaker 1: actually met FARK representatives who were very much against that process.

209
00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:52,640
Speaker 1: So all goes back to documentation, right, Gary Webb builds

210
00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,400
Speaker 1: this case and he argues, somehow, as opposed to all

211
00:11:57,440 --> 00:12:00,720
Speaker 1: the other drug running operations on that continent, somehow the

212
00:12:00,800 --> 00:12:04,280
Speaker 1: contras are able to get cocaine into the US and

213
00:12:04,320 --> 00:12:07,800
Speaker 1: then most importantly get cash out with a lot less

214
00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:10,520
Speaker 1: of a hassle than other cartels or drug runners.

215
00:12:11,520 --> 00:12:15,479
Speaker 2: Well, yeah, so they're saving a ton of money somehow

216
00:12:15,720 --> 00:12:19,160
Speaker 2: in this whole process, in the transportation, right hm. And

217
00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,800
Speaker 2: what that's allowing them to do, and this is where

218
00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:24,200
Speaker 2: it gets really bad for people who live in the

219
00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:28,320
Speaker 2: United States. This allows these groups to sell their product

220
00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:32,480
Speaker 2: at a much much lower price than their competitors.

221
00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:36,880
Speaker 1: Right, so you can't. It's like what a mom and

222
00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,760
Speaker 1: pop store is trying to compete with a huge, big

223
00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:44,160
Speaker 1: box chain grocery store. They have the economy of scale

224
00:12:44,480 --> 00:12:47,520
Speaker 1: that allows them to sell an apple for fifty cents,

225
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 1: whereas the mom and pop stores to sell it for

226
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:50,400
Speaker 1: a dollar.

227
00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:52,800
Speaker 2: And why would you buy your apple for a dollar

228
00:12:52,840 --> 00:12:54,640
Speaker 2: when you know you can get it for fifty cents.

229
00:12:55,000 --> 00:12:56,880
Speaker 4: Maybe it's some more delicious apple.

230
00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:58,720
Speaker 2: It's the exact same apple, my friend.

231
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 4: I don't know. Maybe if you pay more for it,

232
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:01,360
Speaker 4: it tastes better.

233
00:13:03,040 --> 00:13:06,160
Speaker 1: There's a study with wine that absolutely proves that, Yeah,

234
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:09,360
Speaker 1: that is true, calling out all samall yea's we'll go

235
00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:12,439
Speaker 1: ahead and maybe publish that study on wine on Here's

236
00:13:12,440 --> 00:13:13,600
Speaker 1: where it gets crazy later.

237
00:13:13,840 --> 00:13:18,600
Speaker 2: But what if you're addicted to apples? Like, addicted to apples?

238
00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:20,400
Speaker 2: Are you still going to pay a dollar?

239
00:13:20,880 --> 00:13:21,080
Speaker 1: Well?

240
00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,319
Speaker 4: I don't know, I mean it depends right, Like are

241
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,160
Speaker 4: you a connoisseur.

242
00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:27,520
Speaker 1: Of apples or are you just eating like any old

243
00:13:27,559 --> 00:13:29,800
Speaker 1: crab apple to scratch that unscratchable itch.

244
00:13:29,880 --> 00:13:34,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's different layers, there's different there's a hierarchy of addiction.

245
00:13:35,000 --> 00:13:37,120
Speaker 2: Right, I'm gonna go out on a limb and say

246
00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,040
Speaker 2: the crack epidemic probably was going more towards.

247
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:41,640
Speaker 4: The crab apples.

248
00:13:41,840 --> 00:13:45,319
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, crack apples also just an unnecessary point here.

249
00:13:45,640 --> 00:13:49,000
Speaker 1: I feel like red Delicious Apple is like a terribly

250
00:13:49,080 --> 00:13:51,480
Speaker 1: ironic name because those are terrible apples.

251
00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:52,680
Speaker 2: I don't like them either.

252
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:57,200
Speaker 1: They're kind of mushy. Yeah, you know, I don't get it.

253
00:13:57,280 --> 00:13:58,680
Speaker 1: Fuji apples all day.

254
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,040
Speaker 2: For me, it's Granny Smith.

255
00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:02,400
Speaker 1: Andy Smith. I would not have figured you for a

256
00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:03,320
Speaker 1: fan of tartness.

257
00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:04,560
Speaker 2: It's my favorite.

258
00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,480
Speaker 1: What about that? Mean, man, it's a it's a tart apple.

259
00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:08,880
Speaker 4: No, I know, but why would you? Why would you

260
00:14:08,920 --> 00:14:11,480
Speaker 4: not think that Matt was a fan of tartness.

261
00:14:11,080 --> 00:14:16,720
Speaker 1: Because Matt's Matt's palette runs more toward spicy. He's exploring extremes.

262
00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:18,160
Speaker 2: That's exactly what it is.

263
00:14:18,160 --> 00:14:18,600
Speaker 4: Interesting.

264
00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,360
Speaker 2: My favorite tart is a Carl tart.

265
00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:30,640
Speaker 1: Though it's well done, well done, but uh but the

266
00:14:31,560 --> 00:14:35,120
Speaker 1: character the argument still stays the same, right, Like he says,

267
00:14:35,680 --> 00:14:43,600
Speaker 1: obviously this, obviously someone is influencing the game that the

268
00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:47,560
Speaker 1: cartels are playing down there, and I have he says

269
00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,960
Speaker 1: proof that the CIA is either again either ignoring it,

270
00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,520
Speaker 1: maybe helping it, has met with cartel leaders and so on.

271
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,000
Speaker 1: But what before we get too far, let's ask her

272
00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:04,000
Speaker 1: ourselves what he actually did not do After a word

273
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:06,560
Speaker 1: from our sponsors.

274
00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:14,400
Speaker 2: And we're back. So, the one thing that Gary Webb

275
00:15:14,720 --> 00:15:18,240
Speaker 2: did not do by discussing these things in his three

276
00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,640
Speaker 2: part series that would become The Dark Alliance, what he

277
00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:24,720
Speaker 2: didn't do is break this story. He wasn't the first

278
00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,960
Speaker 2: person to talk about America's crack coming from other places,

279
00:15:29,000 --> 00:15:34,200
Speaker 2: perhaps the contras, like specifically the Nicaraguan Contras, with perhaps

280
00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,440
Speaker 2: the CIA's approval. This was something that had already been

281
00:15:37,520 --> 00:15:41,640
Speaker 2: kind of floating around. It was a theory in a way.

282
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:46,160
Speaker 2: He was just backing up these beliefs with some facts,

283
00:15:46,320 --> 00:15:49,200
Speaker 2: or at least with as close to facts as he could.

284
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:51,600
Speaker 1: Get, kind of fleshing out the picture.

285
00:15:51,720 --> 00:15:54,120
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, he's given you the details. He's zooming in

286
00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:55,480
Speaker 2: with the camera a little bit.

287
00:15:55,800 --> 00:15:58,680
Speaker 1: There we go. I like that he never claimed to

288
00:15:58,720 --> 00:16:02,680
Speaker 1: have evidence that the CIA engineered the entire thing correct,

289
00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:06,360
Speaker 1: only that they knew something was going on, they tacitly

290
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,920
Speaker 1: approved of it, and that they met with contra leaders

291
00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:11,640
Speaker 1: and funders to talk about the money.

292
00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, the fact of the matter is that there were

293
00:16:13,560 --> 00:16:17,720
Speaker 4: a lot of kind of wild theories that shot off

294
00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:21,080
Speaker 4: from this reporting. And I know we'll get into some

295
00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:23,000
Speaker 4: of this little bit more, but Web was sort of

296
00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:26,080
Speaker 4: discredited and then sort of indicated, and he's been a

297
00:16:26,160 --> 00:16:29,560
Speaker 4: very divisive figure in terms of like how rigorous his

298
00:16:30,240 --> 00:16:32,880
Speaker 4: fact checking was for some of this stuff. There's a

299
00:16:32,880 --> 00:16:35,160
Speaker 4: piece an op ed in the Washington Post by they

300
00:16:35,200 --> 00:16:38,120
Speaker 4: named Jeff Lean from twenty fourteen, who was their assistant

301
00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,800
Speaker 4: managing editor, and he basically you should read it for yourself.

302
00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:42,440
Speaker 4: It's very interesting, but he kind of goes through in

303
00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:48,600
Speaker 4: shreds Web in terms of his abilities as a investigative

304
00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:52,120
Speaker 4: reporter and said that he makes all of these incredible

305
00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,120
Speaker 4: claims and that in order to make incredible claims like that,

306
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,400
Speaker 4: as a journalist, you have to have incredible evidence, right,

307
00:16:58,560 --> 00:17:00,920
Speaker 4: and he doesn't exist well.

308
00:17:00,960 --> 00:17:04,199
Speaker 1: And then also what role do the editors play in that.

309
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,360
Speaker 1: I'm glad you mentioned twenty fourteen because that's an important year.

310
00:17:07,480 --> 00:17:10,560
Speaker 1: But let's let's get to the reaction of the initial

311
00:17:10,560 --> 00:17:16,359
Speaker 1: publication too. So the media does conflate what Web is saying,

312
00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,760
Speaker 1: as as we mentioned, they say that Web is saying

313
00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,800
Speaker 1: the CIA did it. Did it all smoking gun caught

314
00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:26,000
Speaker 1: red handed. It was the CIA with the crack cocaine

315
00:17:26,440 --> 00:17:28,240
Speaker 1: in the living room.

316
00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,359
Speaker 4: As though they invented the substance for some nefarious purpose,

317
00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:35,280
Speaker 4: to try to manipulate in the population into behaving a

318
00:17:35,359 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 4: certain way, or to incarcerate black men unfairly.

319
00:17:38,640 --> 00:17:41,000
Speaker 2: Right, the biggest thing is that they were saying that

320
00:17:41,080 --> 00:17:44,520
Speaker 2: Web was saying. The news is saying that Web is

321
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,880
Speaker 2: saying that the CIA is literally the drug dealer, which

322
00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:51,080
Speaker 2: he did not. He did not say that. I totally

323
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 2: get that.

324
00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:54,320
Speaker 4: I mean, it's and you know, it's kind of what

325
00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,680
Speaker 4: we're experiencing now with the quick turnaround of like internet reporting,

326
00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,120
Speaker 4: where it's very easy to conflate something in a properly

327
00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,040
Speaker 4: research story and turn it into something else for your

328
00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:06,359
Speaker 4: own purposes. Wouldn't have thought that would have been happening

329
00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:09,360
Speaker 4: quite to this degree back then, But yet here we are.

330
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:12,200
Speaker 1: This is back when the news was all made by

331
00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:17,040
Speaker 1: like organic meatbags called humans rather than bots and botnets,

332
00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 1: you know what I.

333
00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:23,960
Speaker 6: Mean, and the day but then the days before deep fakes,

334
00:18:24,200 --> 00:18:29,160
Speaker 6: which is a scary thing, right, Yes, so you're absolutely right, guys.

335
00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,680
Speaker 6: He he did get conflated.

336
00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:32,080
Speaker 1: Now.

337
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:34,320
Speaker 2: Well, and there's a whole other thing we're gonna talk

338
00:18:34,320 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 2: about in there about Gary web sources, right, and the

339
00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 2: people he was talking to that he couldn't actually cite

340
00:18:39,560 --> 00:18:40,680
Speaker 2: as being the source.

341
00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:42,800
Speaker 1: Because they were so off the record. And then also

342
00:18:42,960 --> 00:18:45,080
Speaker 1: on a related thing that we have to get to

343
00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:49,520
Speaker 1: maybe in a future episode, it's pretty easy to prove

344
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 1: that on some level, the federal government, through multiple agencies,

345
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:59,879
Speaker 1: has been targeting the black community for a long time.

346
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:02,680
Speaker 1: I mean, the same amount of cocaine and the same

347
00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:09,840
Speaker 1: amount of crack cocaine carry wildly different minimum mandatory incarceration terms, right,

348
00:19:10,080 --> 00:19:10,960
Speaker 1: Why would that.

349
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:16,359
Speaker 4: Be Hmmm, Matt's making sort of a smushed up face

350
00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:16,760
Speaker 4: right now.

351
00:19:16,800 --> 00:19:24,680
Speaker 1: It's very Hollywood. That's your Charlie Day in front of

352
00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:29,080
Speaker 1: the conspiracy law chain smoking accusation. I mean, it's a

353
00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:34,280
Speaker 1: good question though, and the reaction is immense. This is

354
00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:39,119
Speaker 1: actually one of the first national security stories to really

355
00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:45,960
Speaker 1: blow up online to get people in the normal mainstream

356
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:51,640
Speaker 1: America intensely interested. It's twenty thousand words long. It enrages

357
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,720
Speaker 1: black communities who are wondering, why are these epidemics happening?

358
00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,960
Speaker 1: Why does it seem like there's more government punishment or

359
00:20:00,040 --> 00:20:03,560
Speaker 1: harassment of the community rather than government assistance of a

360
00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:09,000
Speaker 1: community in trouble. And then there are congressional investigations excuse me,

361
00:20:09,080 --> 00:20:09,919
Speaker 1: congressional hearings.

362
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, congressional hearings. But some of the biggest, at least

363
00:20:13,760 --> 00:20:18,040
Speaker 2: most widely seen hearings or seen on television occur just

364
00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 2: within smaller communities within LA and other cities like that,

365
00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:27,520
Speaker 2: where there are people filling a room, a huge room,

366
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 2: and they are just asking people how long have you

367
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:33,600
Speaker 2: known about the CIA dealing drugs? Like did you know

368
00:20:33,680 --> 00:20:36,600
Speaker 2: that CIA was dealing drugs? And they're asking their city officials,

369
00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:39,760
Speaker 2: and they're asking big names who are supposed to be

370
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:40,520
Speaker 2: in charge of things.

371
00:20:40,720 --> 00:20:44,920
Speaker 1: And again, Webb is in his you can see interviews

372
00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: with him as well, where he essentially says that he

373
00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:53,280
Speaker 1: doesn't think the CIA was like wringing its hands Monty

374
00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:58,639
Speaker 1: Burn's style and saying, oh you know what I mean. Yeah,

375
00:20:58,720 --> 00:21:02,359
Speaker 1: He says, instead, they just really wanted money, and they

376
00:21:02,400 --> 00:21:05,719
Speaker 1: wanted off the books money anyway, Like if it hadn't

377
00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:07,760
Speaker 1: been this, it would have been something else.

378
00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:12,760
Speaker 2: They couldn't officially use the government's money to pay for

379
00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:14,160
Speaker 2: what they were trying to do.

380
00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,160
Speaker 1: Because that's back when that kind of policy or law

381
00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:19,600
Speaker 1: actually stopped people from doing that sort of thing.

382
00:21:19,600 --> 00:21:22,760
Speaker 4: Have we talked much about what the Contra affair was

383
00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,560
Speaker 4: and why they were interacting with these militants who were

384
00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 4: like they were kind of like rogue militants. Basically, what

385
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:31,200
Speaker 4: was the benefit there?

386
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,080
Speaker 1: Mentioned in a previous episode, But I think you're right,

387
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 1: we should go ahead and just just give you the

388
00:21:37,440 --> 00:21:38,159
Speaker 1: quick and dirty.

389
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 2: Right.

390
00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 1: It's also called Iran Gate, which is interesting, but here

391
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:43,240
Speaker 1: in the US we usually call it.

392
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,159
Speaker 4: The Iran Contra affair at the Thomas Crown affair.

393
00:21:48,560 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, So essentially, what are the contras.

394
00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 2: Men, Well, they were a group in Nicaragua and their

395
00:21:53,640 --> 00:21:56,880
Speaker 2: whole point, or at least for the United States purposes,

396
00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:00,480
Speaker 2: they were going to at least attempt to throw the

397
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:01,760
Speaker 2: Sandinista government.

398
00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 1: Which were socialist exactly. These are right wing rebel groups.

399
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 1: So the US government tends to support right wing insurgents

400
00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:17,440
Speaker 1: much more often than say left wing or anti capitalist insurgents. Basically,

401
00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:23,320
Speaker 1: people are pro resource extraction tend to historically, I'm not

402
00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:26,520
Speaker 1: saying now, but tend to historically get more support from

403
00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 1: the US government.

404
00:22:27,640 --> 00:22:32,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's one of those things if everyone, if

405
00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: everyone in a country is getting to kind of share

406
00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:40,480
Speaker 2: the wealth in a more you know, sometimes communists, sometimes

407
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:43,919
Speaker 2: socialists structures that occurs where everyone gets a little peace.

408
00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: It's not so great when you could just control it

409
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:47,800
Speaker 2: from top.

410
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 4: Down, oh man. Of course, the top down approach.

411
00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: Of course, the infamous top down. So that sounds weird

412
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:56,480
Speaker 1: when you see it that way. Yeah, sorry, miss top down,

413
00:22:56,600 --> 00:23:00,280
Speaker 1: But all right. So the Iran contra affair occurs when

414
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:03,600
Speaker 1: the National Security Council of the US gets involved in

415
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: secret weapon transactions and other activities that are prohibited by Congress.

416
00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:14,600
Speaker 1: So Ronald Reagan, the Reagan administration, that's probably a better

417
00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,640
Speaker 1: way to say it. The Reagan administration at the time

418
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 1: is very concerned that communism will spread throughout Central America

419
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 1: and challenge the capitalists or liberal hierarchy, that is, you know,

420
00:23:29,440 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: challenge the hegemonic status. So the people of Nicaragua were

421
00:23:33,800 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 1: particularly the Satinista Liberation movement they mentioned earlier in nineteen

422
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: seventy nine, they overthrow the president who is actually a dictator.

423
00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 1: And now the Reagan administration is having there come to

424
00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:49,000
Speaker 1: Jesus moment, as they would say in the South. So

425
00:23:49,320 --> 00:23:51,760
Speaker 1: he thought this would eventually threaten the security of the

426
00:23:51,840 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: United States. Remember we're still in the Cold War era

427
00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:59,600
Speaker 1: at this time, and so the Reagan administration pushed huge

428
00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,080
Speaker 1: amount of some military aid into not just Nicaragua, but

429
00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,560
Speaker 1: other governments and other places that have civil wars and

430
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,840
Speaker 1: gorilla fighting in hopes of preventing a left wing government.

431
00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,320
Speaker 1: And in the case of Nicaragua, they wanted to destabilize

432
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,959
Speaker 1: that government and engineer and overthrow. So why is Iran

433
00:24:21,040 --> 00:24:21,520
Speaker 1: in there, right?

434
00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:25,280
Speaker 2: Iran? I don't understand.

435
00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:30,240
Speaker 1: So they sold anti tank and anti aircraft missiles to Iran,

436
00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:33,800
Speaker 1: believing that if they sold the missiles to Iran, Iran,

437
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:38,600
Speaker 1: through its PROXYHBLAH, would allow hostages in Lebanon to be released.

438
00:24:38,840 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 1: This is already very rupe. Goldberg sat so much, and

439
00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:46,280
Speaker 1: so a portion of the money that Iran paid for

440
00:24:46,680 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: was diverted and then given to the contrast. A lot

441
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,920
Speaker 1: of this occurred under the supervision of a man who's

442
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,000
Speaker 1: very familiar to everyone, Lieutenant Colonel Oliver North.

443
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:02,359
Speaker 2: You may remember him from that famous hearing. Yeah it

444
00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:04,600
Speaker 2: wasn't a hearing. I don't even know exactly what it was,

445
00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 2: but you can see video of him just admitting to

446
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: this stuff.

447
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,520
Speaker 1: And feels like he did the right thing to stop

448
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:15,880
Speaker 1: the the ultimate war of ideology between the West and

449
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 1: the communist countries. So the problem with this stuff is

450
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: that while they're raising this money for the Contras, they're

451
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:28,719
Speaker 1: violating something called the Bowland Amendment BOLA and D, a

452
00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,159
Speaker 1: law that was passed in nineteen eighty four that banned

453
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:34,520
Speaker 1: direct or indirect military aid to the contrast. So they're

454
00:25:34,560 --> 00:25:37,200
Speaker 1: moving money in a sleazy way, yep, but they think

455
00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:38,200
Speaker 1: they're doing the right thing.

456
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:40,080
Speaker 2: It's just a different kind of shell game.

457
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:41,919
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, Yeah, it's kind of like the

458
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 1: idea that the ends justify the means, or that there

459
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,240
Speaker 1: is a difference between what is legal and what is

460
00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:51,520
Speaker 1: morally correct, and they felt like they were doing the

461
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:55,520
Speaker 1: moral thing. Okay, so that's around. Does that?

462
00:25:56,000 --> 00:25:58,000
Speaker 4: Yeah, man, Yeah it does. And I knew some of

463
00:25:58,000 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 4: that but not all of that. But it sounds to

464
00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:01,919
Speaker 4: me like the accusation here is that they would go

465
00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 4: to any means necessary to prop up this militant group

466
00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,320
Speaker 4: that was potentially going to do good for our government

467
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 4: in deposing this kind of pesky regime that was in

468
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:19,880
Speaker 4: place that was inconvenient regime, right, absolutely, and that would

469
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:25,040
Speaker 4: extend as far as Web's concern to funneling drugs in

470
00:26:25,080 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 4: the United States knowingly in order to funnel some of

471
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 4: that money into this cause that needed to be off

472
00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 4: books money, right, great.

473
00:26:33,200 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 1: Black budget stuff. Yeah, And so this accusation lights a

474
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:45,400
Speaker 1: flame under the American public and in a strange, not unprecedented,

475
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 1: let's call it that not unprecedented show of solidarity. Various

476
00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 1: papers of note excoriate Web, the Washington Post before twenty fourteen,

477
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:57,159
Speaker 1: Like back when this was released, the Washington Post is saying,

478
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 1: there are huge problems with the reporting, there's huge errors.

479
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 1: Why can't you cite who said that? Why can't you

480
00:27:03,359 --> 00:27:06,600
Speaker 1: prove this claim that you're making? And then Web would

481
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:09,080
Speaker 1: go back and say, why I didn't make that claim?

482
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 1: But he can't compete with New York Times.

483
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:14,240
Speaker 4: And in turn, Jerry sepos chepos I believe, who was

484
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 4: the executive editor of The Mercury News, the paper that

485
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,679
Speaker 4: this piece was, the series of pieces were published in

486
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,400
Speaker 4: kind of threw Web under the bus, and he said, quote,

487
00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 4: we oversimplified the complex issue of how the crack epidemic

488
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 4: in America grew through imprecise language and graphics because there

489
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,280
Speaker 4: are a lot of infographics in this piece as well,

490
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:36,640
Speaker 4: we created impressions that were open to misinterpretation. And that's

491
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:40,840
Speaker 4: the kicker, because it was that misinterpretation. Maybe Web didn't

492
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:43,000
Speaker 4: go quite as far as as some people might think

493
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 4: if you actually read the work. But there's some quotes

494
00:27:44,680 --> 00:27:46,200
Speaker 4: in here I I want to throw out too, to

495
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 4: see what you guys think. But it was those other

496
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:53,000
Speaker 4: more quick to jump on a hot story, news outlets

497
00:27:53,359 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 4: that kind of really just kind of made stuff up

498
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:57,479
Speaker 4: from whole cloth.

499
00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 1: Right, you can't defend yourself against the claim that you

500
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 1: did not make other than saying you did not make that.

501
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,600
Speaker 1: And if you don't have a large enough microphone or platform,

502
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:11,200
Speaker 1: you're just not going to get your rebuttal out there.

503
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,800
Speaker 1: I mean, rebuttals and corrections are some of the most

504
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:18,400
Speaker 1: seldom read parts of any newspaper, and this a lot

505
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,640
Speaker 1: most of this is occurring in newspapers at the time.

506
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:24,560
Speaker 1: Although Web was prescient enough to put his work online

507
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 1: real quick.

508
00:28:25,640 --> 00:28:28,920
Speaker 4: He made a website. He did the surrounds these pieces

509
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:31,320
Speaker 4: like early On, which was which is not as much

510
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:32,359
Speaker 4: of a thing back then.

511
00:28:32,560 --> 00:28:34,520
Speaker 1: Right, it was very as I say, he's very much

512
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: an early adopter, and the communities that needed to find

513
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,240
Speaker 1: out about this, he actually drove a lot of them online.

514
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: People who ordinarily wouldn't have cared about this found it

515
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 1: as a safe way to arrive at information they felt

516
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:50,200
Speaker 1: the government was trying to hide. It turns out. I

517
00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:53,560
Speaker 1: want to go just quick to back to twenty fourteen,

518
00:28:54,000 --> 00:28:59,320
Speaker 1: where the Washing Post republished or they published another criticism,

519
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: which I I think is the op ed you're going

520
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: to read from NOL. The CIA at the same year,

521
00:29:04,200 --> 00:29:09,280
Speaker 1: on September eighteenth, released a ton of documents spanning thirty years,

522
00:29:09,320 --> 00:29:14,960
Speaker 1: three decades, and a lot of it confirmed confirmed stuff

523
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:19,680
Speaker 1: Gary Webb had argued. They show at least that there

524
00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:25,920
Speaker 1: was collusion to in backstage, smoky room style collusion to

525
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 1: try to suppress the story. One of the things that

526
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,120
Speaker 1: was released.

527
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: This is in twenty fourteen.

528
00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: M One of the things that was released was an

529
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:37,320
Speaker 1: article that was six pages long titled Managing a Nightmare,

530
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 1: CIA Public Affairs and the Drug Conspiracy Story. So this

531
00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: you can find this online. This looks at how the

532
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,680
Speaker 1: CIA reacted to what it saw as a huge public

533
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 1: relations crisis or catastrophe and then showing that the agency

534
00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,200
Speaker 1: actually didn't have to do much to extinguish the public

535
00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,760
Speaker 1: outcry press the story, because you see, as we said,

536
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: as I said, there are moments of not unprecedented solidarity

537
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 1: among papers of note, at least here in the US,

538
00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,920
Speaker 1: probably in your country as well. Sometimes that happen, not

539
00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 1: all the time, but sometimes that happens because they have

540
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,080
Speaker 1: a relationship behind the scenes that you as the public,

541
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: will never see with intelligence agencies in that country. So

542
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: the CIA essentially contacts their higher ups in the world

543
00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: of media and publishing and they say, look, let's all

544
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: vultroun up together.

545
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: On get on the same page everybody.

546
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: Like in jfk Assassination.

547
00:30:39,080 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 4: Can I read a quote from yeah, web Pieces.

548
00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 2: Before you do that? Just noting in that same year,

549
00:30:43,880 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, that's when the Jeremy Renner movie Kill the

550
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 2: Messenger comes out. That's right, that's all about the Gary Webster.

551
00:30:50,640 --> 00:30:52,400
Speaker 4: Do you guys see that. Yes, I hadn't even heard

552
00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 4: of it. Oh, it's is again.

553
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: I really liked it, but only because we had done

554
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:58,280
Speaker 2: a video on it in the past. I knew the story.

555
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:04,640
Speaker 4: We're getting a lot of push I mean, it's I really.

556
00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:05,959
Speaker 1: Enjoyed it had a built in audience.

557
00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:06,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough.

558
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 4: I just want to play out a couple of these

559
00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,959
Speaker 4: some of these claims that I think are interesting when

560
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 4: you read them. In one place from Gary Webb's Dark

561
00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 4: Alliance trilogy of articles that ultimately became a book. Quote,

562
00:31:19,000 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 4: thousands of young black men are serving long prison sentences

563
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 4: for selling cocaine, a drug that was virtually unobtainable in

564
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,840
Speaker 4: black neighborhoods before members of the CIA's army started bringing

565
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 4: it into South Central in the nineteen eighties at bargain

566
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:36,360
Speaker 4: basement prices. So, I mean, it is hyperbolic as hell.

567
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 4: And the guy who wrote this op ed. The guy

568
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:43,240
Speaker 4: was talking about earlier, the twenty fourteen anyway, Jeff Leen,

569
00:31:43,280 --> 00:31:45,560
Speaker 4: who was the assistant managing editor for The Washington Post.

570
00:31:45,680 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 4: He calls that a nut graph, which I had never

571
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,239
Speaker 4: heard of. And I love this. And this is how

572
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 4: he sums that up. What a nut graph is. He says,

573
00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 4: this was one of the most difficult things for a

574
00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 4: reporter to write, because you have to summarize some very

575
00:31:59,680 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 4: out landish, outrageous facts and synthesize you know, the truth

576
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 4: behind it, and somehow you know paint in the often

577
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:14,320
Speaker 4: contradicting notions behind it.

578
00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: It's kind of like writing a blurb before the story's

579
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: telling the audience why should I read this exactly?

580
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 4: But it's also you know, he says, this is kind

581
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 4: of where web went off the rails and went a

582
00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 4: little too far, and he ultimately resigned from his position

583
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:34,880
Speaker 4: and was never hired again by any mainstream newspapers of

584
00:32:34,920 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 4: note rights. And he just kind of went rogue and

585
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 4: did his own thing. But he already kind of set

586
00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 4: the tone for doing that by making that website. Now

587
00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 4: he had this book, and he obviously had people that

588
00:32:44,600 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 4: believed him and probably had a following outside of the

589
00:32:48,120 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 4: mainstream press.

590
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:51,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and also, you know, if the Internet had been

591
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,680
Speaker 1: more prominent at the time, things might have gone differently

592
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,240
Speaker 1: for him. He was also notoriously stubborn and at times

593
00:32:57,280 --> 00:33:01,840
Speaker 1: difficult to work with. He started blaming his editors pretty quickly,

594
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: so things became acrimonious between the Mercury editors and himself,

595
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: but it did lead directly to a Senate subcommittee hearing

596
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: where John Kerry was a senator at the time, investigated

597
00:33:17,200 --> 00:33:20,960
Speaker 1: the AP's findings from the Associated Press, and they released

598
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:25,400
Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty nine, a report that was more than

599
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:29,160
Speaker 1: one thousand pages. It said it found quote considerable evidence

600
00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 1: that the Contras were linked to running drugs and guns

601
00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: and the US government knew about it. So that would

602
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 1: mean that on that base level, some of what Web

603
00:33:38,680 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: is saying is true. But the way that he's using

604
00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: these very highly dramatic phrases like calling the Contras the

605
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:50,720
Speaker 1: CIA's army, you know what I mean, that's that for

606
00:33:50,920 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: a lot of investigators, that makes it tougher to believe

607
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: these other claims. So you're probably wondering why we're speaking

608
00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:01,560
Speaker 1: about Gary Web in the past tense. And I know

609
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: we're jumping around a lot right now. I guarantee you

610
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 1: that previously we had a nice little timeline for painting

611
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: the story. We've got a picture here. We're talking about

612
00:34:11,239 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: Gary Webb in past tense because after all this stuff

613
00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:18,840
Speaker 1: is occurring, he is largely considered to have failed his profession.

614
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,839
Speaker 1: He's essentially blacklisted from any job that he would want,

615
00:34:22,760 --> 00:34:26,560
Speaker 1: and he's dire need of money. His characters being attacked

616
00:34:26,600 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 1: and stuff. On December tenth of two thousand and four,

617
00:34:30,160 --> 00:34:32,960
Speaker 1: he was found dead with two thirty eight caliber gunshot

618
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: wounds to his head in his home in Carmichael, California,

619
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,760
Speaker 1: which he had just had to put on the market.

620
00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 2: Because he couldn't afford the mortgage.

621
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,200
Speaker 1: Right, because he couldn't afford the mortgage. Now, the coroner

622
00:34:42,440 --> 00:34:46,040
Speaker 1: ruled that this death was a suicide. And Webb's ex wife,

623
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: remember we noted her earlier, Susan Bell, She said that

624
00:34:49,600 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 1: he had been very depressed after a falling out with

625
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,960
Speaker 1: his former employers at the Mercury, and a lot of

626
00:34:56,000 --> 00:35:01,480
Speaker 1: people believe that being professionally discredited drove him to suicide

627
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,879
Speaker 1: and that his claims in the Dark Alliance were at

628
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:10,160
Speaker 1: the very least exaggerated, if not made up. So the

629
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: question is, you know what happened. Did he break ethical boundaries?

630
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:15,360
Speaker 1: Did he false fi information in order to sell a

631
00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 1: juicy story, could he not prove his claims his professional

632
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:21,520
Speaker 1: failure lead him to take his own life? Or is

633
00:35:21,560 --> 00:35:22,880
Speaker 1: there more to the story.

634
00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 2: And we're going to talk about that right after a

635
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:26,240
Speaker 2: quick word from our sponsor.

636
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: Here's where it gets crazy, Olhthough not really, because.

637
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,320
Speaker 2: We kind of jumped ahead. It's okay, it's okay.

638
00:35:40,360 --> 00:35:44,080
Speaker 1: But so Gary Webb was right, he was correct, at

639
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:48,760
Speaker 1: least partially but probably but probably not all the way correct, because,

640
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 1: as Lean says in that post op ed, you have

641
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:55,560
Speaker 1: mentioned nol Gary Webb was no journalism hero. Despite what

642
00:35:55,680 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: kill the Messenger says, as Lean pointed out, there are

643
00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: a lot of things that are hyper, a lot of

644
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 1: things he can't support. But we have to mention not

645
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: only was he at least partially right, but despite the

646
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,040
Speaker 1: hooplah and the controversy and character assassination, everybody knew that

647
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:17,160
Speaker 1: he was right beforehand because two other journalists had figured

648
00:36:17,200 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 1: this out in nineteen eighty five, more than a decade

649
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 1: before the Dark Alliance, journalists Robert Perry and Brian Barger

650
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: or Barker, found and proved that Contra groups were trafficking

651
00:36:29,920 --> 00:36:33,239
Speaker 1: cocaine to help finance their war in Nicaragua, which the

652
00:36:33,320 --> 00:36:37,839
Speaker 1: US also wanted to happen. And then after they came

653
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: out with that, the Reagan administration launched a behind the

654
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:47,279
Speaker 1: scenes campaign to assassinate their character, remove their credibility as journalists.

655
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 1: And it was an attempt to discredit any reporting on

656
00:36:50,760 --> 00:36:54,279
Speaker 1: Contras and drugs. And there's an article by guy named

657
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,280
Speaker 1: Peter Kornblow who was writing for the Columbia Journalism review

658
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:03,040
Speaker 1: from nineteen ninety seven, who says whether the campaign was

659
00:37:03,120 --> 00:37:06,360
Speaker 1: the cause of this suppression or not. Coverage of the

660
00:37:06,400 --> 00:37:09,600
Speaker 1: story was minimal, but it did happen.

661
00:37:09,560 --> 00:37:12,799
Speaker 2: Proved and it's crazy to think about this now, But

662
00:37:13,160 --> 00:37:19,240
Speaker 2: on March fourth, nineteen eighty seven, the then President Reagan

663
00:37:19,360 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 2: came out after not speaking to the American people for

664
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 2: a long time during this whole Iran contra just scandal,

665
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: I guess, is what you would call it. He came out,

666
00:37:27,960 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: and he gave a speech, and let's just listen to

667
00:37:31,280 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 2: one tiny little piece of that.

668
00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,719
Speaker 5: First, let me say I take full responsibility from my

669
00:37:36,760 --> 00:37:41,000
Speaker 5: own actions and for those of my administration. As angry

670
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 5: as I may be about activities undertaken without my knowledge,

671
00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,319
Speaker 5: I am still accountable for those activities. As disappointed as

672
00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 5: I may be and some who served me, I am

673
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:54,320
Speaker 5: still the one who must answer to the American people

674
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,320
Speaker 5: for this behavior. And as personally distasteful as I find

675
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 5: secret bank accounts and to funds, and as the Navy

676
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:06,000
Speaker 5: would say, this happened on my watch. Let's start with

677
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:09,520
Speaker 5: the part that is the most controversial. A few months ago,

678
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:12,400
Speaker 5: I told the American people I did not trade arms

679
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 5: for hostages. My heart and my best intentions still tell

680
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 5: me that's true, but the facts and the evidence tell

681
00:38:19,600 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 5: me it is not.

682
00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:24,040
Speaker 2: So this was a big deal in Americans' minds. People

683
00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: knew about it. The President is going on television and saying, hey,

684
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,880
Speaker 2: I didn't know this was happening. It was happening, but

685
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:34,399
Speaker 2: I didn't know what was happening. Everybody's cool, Okay, we'll just.

686
00:38:34,320 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: Move forward, like plausible deniability or genuinely sincerely saying this

687
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:41,440
Speaker 1: occurred without my knowledge.

688
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,919
Speaker 2: Either way, he is already telling you in nineteen eighty seven,

689
00:38:45,000 --> 00:38:46,120
Speaker 2: this is happening, and.

690
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,600
Speaker 1: It's kind of It's interesting. I really appreciate you play

691
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 1: that clip because it's something that is somewhat plausible, because

692
00:38:53,560 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 1: if you are at that high level, if you're the president,

693
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,520
Speaker 1: then a lot of things that you say are directives

694
00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,879
Speaker 1: that are well what sometimes in corporate jargon we refer

695
00:39:04,960 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 1: to as the forty thousand foot view. Yeah, it's like saying, well,

696
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: make sure that communism doesn't spread in South and Central America. Okay,

697
00:39:15,200 --> 00:39:18,239
Speaker 1: that sounds good, but you haven't. If you leave all

698
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,720
Speaker 1: the details up to other people, you have no idea

699
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: what they're going to do. You have maybe a reasonable

700
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:26,399
Speaker 1: expectation that they will obey the law, but other than that,

701
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:28,440
Speaker 1: it's give me results.

702
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:32,680
Speaker 2: How badly does that person want to prove, like, do

703
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:36,160
Speaker 2: what you want them to do and make themselves look

704
00:39:36,200 --> 00:39:39,880
Speaker 2: good in your eyes as the president? Because you just

705
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:41,680
Speaker 2: you don't know where that line is for everybody. It's

706
00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:42,480
Speaker 2: different for everyone.

707
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:46,120
Speaker 1: And this leads to a question that I think a

708
00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:48,880
Speaker 1: lot of people are still debated. We said, we said

709
00:39:48,920 --> 00:39:52,000
Speaker 1: that his death was ruled as suicide, right, Yeah, we

710
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 1: know that. We know that he died from two gunshot

711
00:39:55,800 --> 00:39:58,320
Speaker 1: wounds to the head. A lot of people even today

712
00:39:58,400 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 1: believe that Gary Webb was actually murdered and then his

713
00:40:02,360 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 1: death was portrayed as a suicide to cover up further

714
00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,560
Speaker 1: research you might have published. I mean, what do you

715
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:09,840
Speaker 1: guys think about that? Ever you've been reading.

716
00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:11,120
Speaker 2: This, Yeah, there were a lot of rumors that he

717
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:16,280
Speaker 2: was perhaps working on another piece, another story, something bigger.

718
00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 2: Those are almost all rumors, almost all of them. And

719
00:40:20,520 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 2: then everything you hear from his wife, and specifically from

720
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,640
Speaker 2: his wife at the time, just about the deep depression

721
00:40:27,680 --> 00:40:31,960
Speaker 2: that he was suffering from in those moments right before

722
00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 2: he died. Hm, it does make you think perhaps this

723
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,440
Speaker 2: was a suicide. It just points to it, right, But

724
00:40:40,640 --> 00:40:43,320
Speaker 2: let's just take a moment and put ourselves in his shoes.

725
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 2: Imagine that you're a journalist. You're being contacted by people

726
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:53,480
Speaker 2: varying people of varying levels of involvement within the United

727
00:40:53,480 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: States government and or clandestine organizations. They are telling you

728
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: stories about things that have occurred. They're giving you specifics

729
00:41:01,600 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 2: about stuff that's already in the public domain. It's stuff

730
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,920
Speaker 2: that's known, but they're giving you the full story. And

731
00:41:09,000 --> 00:41:12,840
Speaker 2: simultaneously they're telling you you cannot publish my name you.

732
00:41:12,920 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: No one can ever know that I'm talking to you.

733
00:41:15,120 --> 00:41:19,040
Speaker 2: This cannot happen. And you are publishing these stories out

734
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,279
Speaker 2: because this is your big break. This is something that

735
00:41:21,320 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 2: feels very important. There are thousands and thousands of lives

736
00:41:25,600 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: being affected by what these people are telling you, right,

737
00:41:30,360 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: It is an important story to tell. The pressure that

738
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:37,040
Speaker 2: Gary Webb was feeling and must have been feeling to

739
00:41:37,160 --> 00:41:40,279
Speaker 2: put those stories out that would become dark Alliance. I

740
00:41:40,360 --> 00:41:42,799
Speaker 2: cannot fathom what that must have felt like, but I

741
00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:45,440
Speaker 2: know for sure that it was heavy. It was a

742
00:41:45,480 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: heavy burden to bear for him, and it affected his

743
00:41:48,440 --> 00:41:53,439
Speaker 2: family life and it affected his mental health in some way.

744
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 4: Are there any indications that he got death threats and things?

745
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,759
Speaker 4: I mean, I would just assume so with being that

746
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,919
Speaker 4: public and such a divisive anti government story.

747
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 1: That's a good question depending on who you believe.

748
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: Right if you watch the movie, is definitely portrayed a lot.

749
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 1: But well also in the movie, in the film Killing

750
00:42:10,560 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: the Messengers, I heard it described in a review as

751
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:18,480
Speaker 1: it's a retelling of the Gary Web story in a

752
00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 1: place where everyone in a universe where everyone in the

753
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:22,919
Speaker 1: world is wrong except for Gary Web.

754
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:27,080
Speaker 2: Everybody believes Gary. Yeah, exactly exactly where Gary Web is right.

755
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,920
Speaker 2: But just from in I just I'm trying to identify

756
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:34,880
Speaker 2: with him, maybe a little more than I should, But

757
00:42:36,960 --> 00:42:40,600
Speaker 2: I can imagine a place where being discredited after having

758
00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 2: such strong feelings about it being real and being important,

759
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:47,279
Speaker 2: would take a huge toll on not only your self

760
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:50,200
Speaker 2: esteem and self worth, but your ability to continue on.

761
00:42:50,680 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 1: And one thing that a lot of people see as

762
00:42:53,280 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 1: a smoking gun here is the fact that he died

763
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,919
Speaker 1: from not one, but two yes shots to the head.

764
00:43:01,520 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: You might be surprised by how many people who attempt

765
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:10,640
Speaker 1: that sort of process do end up giving themselves ultimately

766
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:14,120
Speaker 1: a non fatal injury. But you know, it's never it's

767
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: never going to be pretty. But one of one of

768
00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 1: the gunshots was through his cheek. Yeah, so they believe

769
00:43:20,280 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: that maybe he missed and then went for a second shot.

770
00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,120
Speaker 1: But because of that, because of the idea that two

771
00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:34,000
Speaker 1: gunshot wounds the head, seemed unusual to a lot of people,

772
00:43:35,080 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 1: the majority of whom are not forensic investigators. Obviously, there's

773
00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,200
Speaker 1: this huge outcry and local reporters end up going to

774
00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,560
Speaker 1: Sacramento County and they say, okay, what go on record,

775
00:43:48,600 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: tell us what is this? And the coroner at the time,

776
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 1: a guy named Robert Lyons, said, it is unusual. It

777
00:43:54,760 --> 00:43:57,759
Speaker 1: is a suicide. It's unusual in a suicide case to

778
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:00,319
Speaker 1: have two shots, but it's been done in the past.

779
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 1: It's in fact a distinct possibility. So he's saying it's

780
00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:08,279
Speaker 1: definitely suicide. This has happened before, and that explanation is

781
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,439
Speaker 1: not good enough for people who thought there was more

782
00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 1: to the story, you know what I mean.

783
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, there are you can hear versions of this

784
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:21,800
Speaker 2: story or read them online. Where he was attempting to leave,

785
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 2: he was trying to get away, he was trying to

786
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: sell his house. He was trying to leave and he

787
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:30,000
Speaker 2: was cocked before he could leave by whatever in nefarious forces.

788
00:44:30,400 --> 00:44:33,239
Speaker 2: These claims have a zero evidence to back them up,

789
00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:37,960
Speaker 2: but it you know, it's tough for me to completely

790
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:41,560
Speaker 2: discount them. But at the same time, it seems a

791
00:44:41,560 --> 00:44:44,080
Speaker 2: lot less plausible than the official story.

792
00:44:44,840 --> 00:44:48,399
Speaker 1: So here's yeah, and here's another question, just to show

793
00:44:48,440 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 1: both sides here. If it was some sort of murder

794
00:44:52,680 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: and if it was related to his investigations in the

795
00:44:55,560 --> 00:45:00,960
Speaker 1: Dark Alliance, then why did they wait eight years after

796
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:05,160
Speaker 1: the publication of the book for him to take him

797
00:45:05,200 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 1: out of the picture. The timeline is just strange.

798
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:12,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the claims I've seen were that he was working

799
00:45:12,440 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 2: on something else outside of the Dark Alliance, which is

800
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: why it got him killed.

801
00:45:17,320 --> 00:45:22,200
Speaker 1: And this argument in this discussion, this controversy continues in

802
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:26,560
Speaker 1: the modern day in twenty eighteen, as we record this

803
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 1: in one of many of the American cities that still

804
00:45:29,800 --> 00:45:33,920
Speaker 1: battle drug problems. Where's it all coming from? Is someone

805
00:45:34,000 --> 00:45:39,279
Speaker 1: helping them out? Both sides of the argument. A lot

806
00:45:39,280 --> 00:45:43,160
Speaker 1: of prominent papers do continue to attack Gary Webb's claims,

807
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,800
Speaker 1: or attack is a strong word, they take it apart

808
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,439
Speaker 1: piece by piece and say it didn't prove this. This

809
00:45:50,560 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 1: is as you said earlier in old hyperbolic statement. And

810
00:45:54,680 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 1: on the other side of this, and these are great

811
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 1: valid points too, but on the other side, continuing releases

812
00:46:01,360 --> 00:46:06,879
Speaker 1: of government documents keep supporting aspects of what he has said.

813
00:46:07,160 --> 00:46:08,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, small little pieces.

814
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,200
Speaker 1: So it's there's no two ways about it, no bones

815
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:13,840
Speaker 1: about it. It's old beans to say it, but we

816
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:18,240
Speaker 1: should admit the Dark Alliance does have several several prominent

817
00:46:18,360 --> 00:46:21,319
Speaker 1: errors that could be critical to you know, like a

818
00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: critical wound to the argument in the book. But CIA

819
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,440
Speaker 1: documents released from the agency at least confirmed chunks of it.

820
00:46:27,920 --> 00:46:32,560
Speaker 1: No one is arguing that the CIA showed often a

821
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,399
Speaker 1: very strange disinterest in the drug trade. Yeah, but how

822
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: involved or not involved were they will future declassified documents

823
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:45,560
Speaker 1: vindicate web from Beyond the Grave? Did the was the

824
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:51,279
Speaker 1: murder something more indirect by ending his career? You know,

825
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,880
Speaker 1: it's like, did the CIA commit the murder and it

826
00:46:53,880 --> 00:46:57,000
Speaker 1: was Gary Webb that pulled the trigger? M M it's

827
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:58,680
Speaker 1: I mean, it's a different way you look at it.

828
00:46:58,760 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 2: But well, something you think about because that strategy of

829
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 2: disinformation by giving a lot a lot of information to

830
00:47:09,040 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 2: someone where almost all of it is true but a

831
00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:14,400
Speaker 2: couple are not true, or almost all of it is untrue,

832
00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:17,719
Speaker 2: but a couple of things are true, right that, And

833
00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: it makes you wonder if the way, especially if you

834
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:24,680
Speaker 2: look at it with the large chunks of unsupported claims

835
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 2: that are in there, it makes you wonder if he's

836
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,120
Speaker 2: speaking to one or two people out of the groups

837
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,640
Speaker 2: of people, who is giving him incorrect information on purpose

838
00:47:33,080 --> 00:47:35,920
Speaker 2: in order to in the future discredit him, which, like

839
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 2: you said, Ben would then eventually lead to two gunshots

840
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 2: to the head self inflicted.

841
00:47:43,320 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: What do you what do you think?

842
00:47:44,960 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 4: It's very suspicious circumstances. I really, you know, it's like

843
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 4: cobaine level suspicious circumstances. You know, I don't know. I

844
00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 4: don't care for it.

845
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:58,600
Speaker 1: It's definitely it definitely has something something off about it.

846
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:01,319
Speaker 1: But the thing is as well, if you are the

847
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:05,440
Speaker 1: central intelligence agency, wouldn't you have the wherewithal to make

848
00:48:05,480 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 1: a death look like an accident?

849
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:08,040
Speaker 2: Yeah?

850
00:48:08,120 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?

851
00:48:09,280 --> 00:48:12,359
Speaker 2: Well maybe, And here's the other thing. If you're taken

852
00:48:12,400 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 2: out by let's say, portions of the narcotics world, so

853
00:48:18,280 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 2: higher ups in the drug you know, the drug I

854
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,040
Speaker 2: don't want to call them companies. What do you call organizations? Sure,

855
00:48:24,080 --> 00:48:27,319
Speaker 2: these narcotics organizations. It's probably also not going to be

856
00:48:27,360 --> 00:48:30,080
Speaker 2: that clean of a murder.

857
00:48:30,120 --> 00:48:33,520
Speaker 1: Perhaps there's that it could be maybe sending a message,

858
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:37,400
Speaker 1: but it could have just been a suicide. I again,

859
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 1: going back to this, make it look like an accident thing.

860
00:48:40,120 --> 00:48:44,600
Speaker 1: It's a tragic truth that fatal car accidents happen multiple

861
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:48,560
Speaker 1: times every single day in this country. Yeah, and in

862
00:48:49,600 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: most countries with dense populations and pedestrians and vehicles. So

863
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: I'm still undecided. I know that the official story says

864
00:48:58,160 --> 00:49:01,480
Speaker 1: that it was a suicide. His ex spouse said it

865
00:49:01,520 --> 00:49:05,040
Speaker 1: was a suicide. It is possible to shoot yourself twice

866
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:10,200
Speaker 1: in the act of committing this, But don't I want

867
00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: to Let's what do you think, fellow conspiracy realist, to

868
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: tell us, tell us your take on this.

869
00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: It just makes you Here's my plea to anyone listening

870
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:24,759
Speaker 2: to this who wants to be an investigative journalist or

871
00:49:24,800 --> 00:49:29,400
Speaker 2: is an investigative journalist. If if you are working on

872
00:49:29,480 --> 00:49:33,400
Speaker 2: anything that becomes highly important ever in your life, please

873
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: whatever the circumstances are, No, it's never bad enough to

874
00:49:37,680 --> 00:49:40,319
Speaker 2: where you need to take your own life. Just know

875
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 2: that it's never going to get that dark. It cannot.

876
00:49:44,080 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 2: You are worth it, stick around and these kind of

877
00:49:48,480 --> 00:49:51,720
Speaker 2: claims won't have to be looked at in the future.

878
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:53,879
Speaker 4: And of course, I mean if you are feeling even

879
00:49:54,040 --> 00:49:57,879
Speaker 4: remotely in that way, there are people that can help.

880
00:49:57,960 --> 00:50:00,840
Speaker 4: I mean, there's the suicide Prevention Hotline, and you can

881
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,080
Speaker 4: find a social worker or some kind of group where

882
00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 4: you can talk to people that are going through similar

883
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 4: things than you. I mean, at the risk of sounding

884
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 4: cheesy and hyperbolic, I mean, you're never as alone as

885
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:12,919
Speaker 4: you might think. And I say that as someone who's

886
00:50:12,960 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 4: dealt with suicide in my life and people with suicidal aviations,

887
00:50:17,080 --> 00:50:20,279
Speaker 4: and it's absolutely not the end all be all, even

888
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 4: if it feels that way.

889
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: Well said, and I don't think that's hyperbolic or cheesy

890
00:50:24,239 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: at all. I think that was very well said. And

891
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,359
Speaker 1: if you ever feel like reaching out, if you ever

892
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:33,959
Speaker 1: just want someone to chat to, we are all over

893
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:34,640
Speaker 1: the internet.

894
00:50:34,800 --> 00:50:38,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, you can find us Conspiracy Stuff on Twitter, Conspiracy

895
00:50:38,880 --> 00:50:42,279
Speaker 2: Stuff show on Instagram, Facebook, Conspiracy Stuff. You can find

896
00:50:42,320 --> 00:50:45,080
Speaker 2: us there. Join our Facebook group if you're interested in

897
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:46,440
Speaker 2: you like the show, you want to talk to other

898
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 2: like minded people who can have just fantastic discussions. We've

899
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:52,439
Speaker 2: been having a lot this past week with everyone there.

900
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,600
Speaker 2: It's called Here's Where It Gets Crazy. That's our Facebook

901
00:50:55,600 --> 00:50:56,560
Speaker 2: group Find It and.

902
00:50:56,480 --> 00:50:57,840
Speaker 4: All you have to do to be a member is

903
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 4: name the three hosts of the show, and occasionally our

904
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:04,359
Speaker 4: amazing moderators will send us screenshots of some really funny ones.

905
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,239
Speaker 4: And here's here's the latest. So who are the hosts

906
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:09,640
Speaker 4: of the podcast? Stuff they don't want you to know? Answer?

907
00:51:09,880 --> 00:51:14,279
Speaker 4: Benjamin Bowtie bowling for soup, bowling matteas Fred Trump was

908
00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:17,720
Speaker 4: the Lizard King Frederick Noel take me down to Funky

909
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:18,440
Speaker 4: Town Brown.

910
00:51:18,880 --> 00:51:19,880
Speaker 2: Wow, that's great.

911
00:51:20,200 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 4: Who was a guy named Tristan?

912
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 2: Tristan McNeill, No different Tristan?

913
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:29,760
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I mean that's true, isn't it? Like Noel Matt. Honestly,

914
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:34,240
Speaker 1: if we think an answer is funny enough the Mouds.

915
00:51:34,280 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 1: While you're listening, I apologize, Cat Zach Sam Coop. If

916
00:51:39,040 --> 00:51:42,280
Speaker 1: if we think there's something funny enough that we'll probably

917
00:51:42,360 --> 00:51:42,799
Speaker 1: let it in.

918
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's definitely my policy.

919
00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 1: And while we're on the while we're on the feel

920
00:51:48,320 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: good train here, we would like to give a big

921
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:57,759
Speaker 1: shout out to our youngest fan, I believe Eliza and Ray,

922
00:51:57,960 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: who was born to Nicholas Ray and his wife just

923
00:52:01,239 --> 00:52:04,520
Speaker 1: a few days ago as we record this. Wow, and

924
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,439
Speaker 1: so congratulations Ray family. You asked us for a shout out.

925
00:52:08,480 --> 00:52:12,480
Speaker 1: And remember you promised the one day you would play

926
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:13,759
Speaker 1: this episode for your kid.

927
00:52:15,160 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, the whole Gary web story. Why do I have

928
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 2: to do that?

929
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:18,879
Speaker 1: Why did I play?

930
00:52:19,440 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: No?

931
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, just player the end. Just wait until she's wait

932
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: until she's an adult or if people still listen to

933
00:52:26,520 --> 00:52:28,800
Speaker 1: podcast at that time, then no. I mean, we're finne

934
00:52:28,840 --> 00:52:32,080
Speaker 1: with you. You don't have to absolutely, absolutely do not

935
00:52:32,120 --> 00:52:34,759
Speaker 1: feel obligated to play this for but we just wanted

936
00:52:34,800 --> 00:52:35,920
Speaker 1: to say congratulations.

937
00:52:36,200 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: Absolutely, and that's the end of this classic episode. If

938
00:52:40,680 --> 00:52:44,759
Speaker 2: you have any thoughts or questions about this episode, you

939
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: can get into contact with us in a number of

940
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 2: different ways. One of the best is to give us

941
00:52:49,000 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 2: a call. Our number is one eight three three std WYTK.

942
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:55,759
Speaker 2: If you don't want to do that, you can send

943
00:52:55,840 --> 00:52:57,240
Speaker 2: us a good old fashioned email.

944
00:52:57,480 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 1: We are conspiracy at iHeartRadio.

945
00:53:01,800 --> 00:53:03,880
Speaker 2: Stuff they Don't Want You to Know is a production

946
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:08,479
Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app,

947
00:53:08,600 --> 00:53:11,440
Speaker 2: Apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.