1 00:00:15,264 --> 00:00:22,344 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I'm David Siegel, and I wrote, He's the bad 2 00:00:22,384 --> 00:00:25,824 Speaker 1: boy of chess, But did he cheat? It's in the 3 00:00:25,864 --> 00:00:28,744 Speaker 1: New York Times, and it's the story of the week. 4 00:00:32,264 --> 00:00:35,224 Speaker 1: I once had a budding friendship with retired baseball player 5 00:00:35,264 --> 00:00:38,224 Speaker 1: Sean Green, and one of the ways we'd express our 6 00:00:38,224 --> 00:00:42,824 Speaker 1: friendship was playing words with friends. He was very good, 7 00:00:43,824 --> 00:00:48,704 Speaker 1: and I cheated. I mean, we hadn't explicitly agreed not 8 00:00:48,864 --> 00:00:51,304 Speaker 1: to look up how to arrange our letters into really 9 00:00:51,304 --> 00:00:54,344 Speaker 1: long words, but I'm pretty sure Sean wasn't doing it. 10 00:00:55,224 --> 00:00:58,624 Speaker 1: He was really good at Words with friends, So I 11 00:00:58,784 --> 00:01:02,024 Speaker 1: told myself that perhaps that's how people played the game 12 00:01:02,184 --> 00:01:06,264 Speaker 1: with computers doing all the work. The guilt I have 13 00:01:06,464 --> 00:01:11,184 Speaker 1: over this years later is odd intense. Part of it 14 00:01:11,224 --> 00:01:13,504 Speaker 1: is because Sean was a home run hitter who maintains 15 00:01:13,504 --> 00:01:16,504 Speaker 1: he didn't take performance enhancing drugs during the steroid era. 16 00:01:17,104 --> 00:01:21,824 Speaker 1: He sacrificed so much out of honor, and I couldn't 17 00:01:21,984 --> 00:01:27,344 Speaker 1: even bear losing at Words with friends. So when I 18 00:01:27,384 --> 00:01:30,384 Speaker 1: heard about the scandal tearing apart the world of professional chess, 19 00:01:31,064 --> 00:01:33,984 Speaker 1: all of my self hatred was directed at Hans Nieman, 20 00:01:34,544 --> 00:01:36,824 Speaker 1: a guy who's been accused of cheating in one of 21 00:01:36,864 --> 00:01:52,384 Speaker 1: the biggest chess scandals ever writing his hard who's got 22 00:01:52,384 --> 00:01:55,624 Speaker 1: that kind of time when you're already busy trying to 23 00:01:55,744 --> 00:01:58,904 Speaker 1: be Joe Stein until it turns on a mic mab 24 00:01:58,944 --> 00:02:02,384 Speaker 1: it twiddles and knob because a journalist Frand has got 25 00:02:02,384 --> 00:02:07,184 Speaker 1: in that jewel job outories single story just listen to 26 00:02:07,304 --> 00:02:25,864 Speaker 1: smart people speaking conversation. Information is a story when Magnus Carlson, 27 00:02:26,024 --> 00:02:29,064 Speaker 1: the greatest chess player in the world, accused nineteen year 28 00:02:29,104 --> 00:02:32,264 Speaker 1: old Hans Nieman of cheating. It tore apart the chess world. 29 00:02:32,984 --> 00:02:36,264 Speaker 1: David Siegel wrote about the scandal for The New York Times. Okay, 30 00:02:36,304 --> 00:02:38,984 Speaker 1: so the story is about these two chess players, Magnus 31 00:02:39,024 --> 00:02:43,024 Speaker 1: Carlson and Hans Nieman, and they're both grandmasters. But these 32 00:02:43,064 --> 00:02:45,944 Speaker 1: guys couldn't be more different from each other. Right, Let's 33 00:02:45,944 --> 00:02:49,104 Speaker 1: start with Magnus Carlson, who I met once at a party. 34 00:02:49,264 --> 00:02:51,224 Speaker 1: He looked like he looked like a chess player. He 35 00:02:51,264 --> 00:02:53,984 Speaker 1: looked like a like a soccer star or an underwear 36 00:02:54,104 --> 00:02:56,744 Speaker 1: model or something like. He's very intimidating. What is he like? 37 00:02:57,744 --> 00:03:00,704 Speaker 1: Magnus Crosson started off as this as this thirteen year 38 00:03:00,744 --> 00:03:04,624 Speaker 1: old phenomenon who became a grandmaster at a super young 39 00:03:04,664 --> 00:03:08,464 Speaker 1: age and then just was mowing down everyone in a 40 00:03:08,464 --> 00:03:11,744 Speaker 1: matter of a couple yours. He's a five time world champion. 41 00:03:12,224 --> 00:03:16,424 Speaker 1: He's also kind of become a brand corporate sponsorships and 42 00:03:16,704 --> 00:03:19,984 Speaker 1: this fashion brand g Star raw hires him to be 43 00:03:19,984 --> 00:03:22,944 Speaker 1: a spokesmodel. He even has his own chess app, play Magnus, 44 00:03:23,024 --> 00:03:25,864 Speaker 1: that the biggest chess website, chess dot com bought in 45 00:03:25,904 --> 00:03:29,464 Speaker 1: twenty twenty two, and he has just beloved right, He's 46 00:03:29,464 --> 00:03:32,584 Speaker 1: the golden boy of chess. He's got lots of star 47 00:03:32,664 --> 00:03:37,784 Speaker 1: power and lots of charisma, and he's also conversational, unlike 48 00:03:37,784 --> 00:03:40,464 Speaker 1: a lot of other chess players who are not so conversational. 49 00:03:40,904 --> 00:03:44,224 Speaker 1: And he's also arguably the greatest chess player who's ever lived. 50 00:03:44,264 --> 00:03:46,744 Speaker 1: And then there's this other guy in the story, Hans Nieman, 51 00:03:46,784 --> 00:03:49,224 Speaker 1: who I've never heard of. So Hans Nieman is like 52 00:03:49,224 --> 00:03:53,064 Speaker 1: the polar opposite of Magnus Carlson. He's this nineteen year 53 00:03:53,064 --> 00:03:56,144 Speaker 1: old American and he's got like a popular Twitch stream, 54 00:03:56,184 --> 00:03:59,824 Speaker 1: he's got that big Sam Bankman freed hair, and he's 55 00:03:59,904 --> 00:04:02,184 Speaker 1: just he's got kind of like a scowl on his face. 56 00:04:02,344 --> 00:04:05,224 Speaker 1: He looks like trouble. I think he looks awesome. I 57 00:04:05,264 --> 00:04:08,144 Speaker 1: gotta say, I totally love the way he looks. He 58 00:04:08,224 --> 00:04:11,904 Speaker 1: looks like he's robbing a great like old country band 59 00:04:11,904 --> 00:04:13,784 Speaker 1: of a lead singer. He looks like he got kicked 60 00:04:13,784 --> 00:04:17,184 Speaker 1: out of Wilco before the first album. He was in 61 00:04:17,224 --> 00:04:21,384 Speaker 1: sun Volt for like a month exactly. He left with 62 00:04:21,424 --> 00:04:24,624 Speaker 1: the other guy. Yeah, he's also a performer. Like his 63 00:04:24,704 --> 00:04:28,064 Speaker 1: twitch stream is really pretty entertaining. During COVID, he had 64 00:04:28,824 --> 00:04:31,304 Speaker 1: a heart rate monitor strapped to him and he would 65 00:04:31,344 --> 00:04:33,664 Speaker 1: play with that and he once got his heart rate 66 00:04:33,704 --> 00:04:36,944 Speaker 1: up to one sixty two, just like sitting and playing. Yeah, no, 67 00:04:37,024 --> 00:04:39,704 Speaker 1: it's just yeah, it's incredible. Like he just he revs 68 00:04:39,784 --> 00:04:42,744 Speaker 1: himself into this frenzy and he's screaming and he's swearing 69 00:04:42,784 --> 00:04:45,704 Speaker 1: and he's carrying on. So we have the suave top 70 00:04:45,784 --> 00:04:49,464 Speaker 1: ranked Magnus Carlson and the Brady rule breaking Hans Nieman, 71 00:04:49,904 --> 00:04:53,024 Speaker 1: and they both show up to the FTX Crypto Cup 72 00:04:53,304 --> 00:04:55,984 Speaker 1: and they have to play each other. And it's not 73 00:04:55,984 --> 00:04:58,504 Speaker 1: supposed to be much of a game, right, Like Hans 74 00:04:58,664 --> 00:05:01,584 Speaker 1: is the lowest ranked player in the entire tournament, and 75 00:05:01,904 --> 00:05:05,904 Speaker 1: Magnus Carlson has been unbeaten for fifty games in a row, 76 00:05:06,104 --> 00:05:08,584 Speaker 1: So this is not supposed to be a great showdown. 77 00:05:09,424 --> 00:05:12,104 Speaker 1: Hans Zeman's nobody. There are very few people who really 78 00:05:12,144 --> 00:05:13,624 Speaker 1: know who he is. He's been a guy who's been 79 00:05:13,624 --> 00:05:16,064 Speaker 1: like running around the globe playing open tournaments, which you 80 00:05:16,064 --> 00:05:18,624 Speaker 1: don't need an invite too, as the name suggests, So 81 00:05:18,664 --> 00:05:21,384 Speaker 1: this was not supposed to be a great game. Magnus 82 00:05:21,464 --> 00:05:23,584 Speaker 1: is playing with the white pieces and Hans is playing 83 00:05:23,624 --> 00:05:26,584 Speaker 1: with the black ones, which is a big disadvantage because 84 00:05:26,624 --> 00:05:30,824 Speaker 1: you have to go second. But then something shocking happens 85 00:05:30,944 --> 00:05:35,784 Speaker 1: and Hans wins. Right, Yeah, it is a stunner. If 86 00:05:35,904 --> 00:05:39,344 Speaker 1: in the chess world this causes, this causes big ripples, Yeah, 87 00:05:39,344 --> 00:05:42,424 Speaker 1: it's it's totally startling. A lot of money was lost 88 00:05:42,464 --> 00:05:46,864 Speaker 1: that night in Vegas. People lost their shirts in Vegas. 89 00:05:46,904 --> 00:05:50,784 Speaker 1: It was, it was. It was a shocker. And yeah, 90 00:05:50,824 --> 00:05:54,464 Speaker 1: Hans Neman walks out of that game into this hallway 91 00:05:54,504 --> 00:05:56,584 Speaker 1: and there's a man there with the microphone waiting to 92 00:05:56,624 --> 00:06:01,944 Speaker 1: interview him, to experience him exulting what you would expect 93 00:06:02,024 --> 00:06:06,864 Speaker 1: would be a man exulting over a career making triumph, 94 00:06:06,944 --> 00:06:10,224 Speaker 1: and instead Hans looks him dead. In thee says chess 95 00:06:10,224 --> 00:06:14,504 Speaker 1: speaks for itself and then walks away, and this becomes 96 00:06:14,504 --> 00:06:18,184 Speaker 1: a sort of great famous moment. And this phrase chess 97 00:06:18,184 --> 00:06:21,304 Speaker 1: speaks for itself is now on coffee cups, It's on 98 00:06:21,384 --> 00:06:25,504 Speaker 1: T shirts just like stunned the chess world and amuse them. 99 00:06:25,544 --> 00:06:27,864 Speaker 1: That's a mic drop of a statement, right, Chess speaks 100 00:06:27,904 --> 00:06:31,424 Speaker 1: for itself. Yeah, have you used that line anywhere? I've 101 00:06:31,464 --> 00:06:34,264 Speaker 1: adapted it, you know what I mean, Like dinner speaks 102 00:06:34,264 --> 00:06:38,584 Speaker 1: for itself. Just so you really you can slot it 103 00:06:38,624 --> 00:06:41,784 Speaker 1: into just about anything. So Carlson and Nieman face off 104 00:06:41,784 --> 00:06:44,424 Speaker 1: again a month later in the sink Field Cup, which 105 00:06:44,504 --> 00:06:47,464 Speaker 1: is a huge chess tournament in Saint Louis, and it's 106 00:06:47,504 --> 00:06:50,584 Speaker 1: like the winner gets one hundred grand and Magnus and 107 00:06:50,704 --> 00:06:54,544 Speaker 1: Hans have to face off again. And what happens then, 108 00:06:55,704 --> 00:06:58,704 Speaker 1: So what happens then is that once again Hans and 109 00:06:58,744 --> 00:07:03,264 Speaker 1: Neman is playing with the black pieces, and this is 110 00:07:03,464 --> 00:07:06,464 Speaker 1: arguably one of the most picked over and studied games 111 00:07:06,464 --> 00:07:08,704 Speaker 1: in the history of chess. So he beats them again 112 00:07:08,824 --> 00:07:11,664 Speaker 1: with the black pieces. With the black pieces, yes, And 113 00:07:11,824 --> 00:07:14,544 Speaker 1: I've seen the interview afterwards where Hans Nieman says he 114 00:07:14,584 --> 00:07:17,984 Speaker 1: got really lucky and guessed in advance that Magnus Carlson 115 00:07:18,104 --> 00:07:22,504 Speaker 1: was going to be using the fianchetto variation, which which 116 00:07:22,504 --> 00:07:26,264 Speaker 1: seems ridiculous because it's an opening move that's so obscure 117 00:07:26,344 --> 00:07:28,744 Speaker 1: that he's never even used it before. And yet Hans 118 00:07:28,824 --> 00:07:31,584 Speaker 1: Nieman says he like prepared for it in advance and 119 00:07:31,664 --> 00:07:35,184 Speaker 1: was ready for it. Yes, that interview becomes exhibit A 120 00:07:35,344 --> 00:07:37,624 Speaker 1: for all the skeptics because he says all sorts of 121 00:07:37,624 --> 00:07:41,064 Speaker 1: things during that interview that raised suspicions, and one of 122 00:07:41,064 --> 00:07:43,824 Speaker 1: them is exactly what you just said. That he prepared 123 00:07:43,864 --> 00:07:48,344 Speaker 1: for this very opening, which he himself described as a miracle. 124 00:07:48,384 --> 00:07:51,224 Speaker 1: He said, by some miracle, I prepared for that very 125 00:07:51,304 --> 00:07:54,904 Speaker 1: opening today like that morning he had he had walked 126 00:07:54,904 --> 00:07:58,744 Speaker 1: through like what if Magnus Carlson uses this opening? But 127 00:07:59,704 --> 00:08:01,904 Speaker 1: I spoke to enough people that said no, no, it's 128 00:08:01,704 --> 00:08:04,464 Speaker 1: he didn't use that very specific opening, but it was 129 00:08:04,584 --> 00:08:06,784 Speaker 1: close enough to a bunch of different openings that had 130 00:08:06,784 --> 00:08:08,984 Speaker 1: made perfect sense for Hans and Eman to prepare for it. 131 00:08:09,504 --> 00:08:14,544 Speaker 1: After this surprising loss to Hans, what does Magnus do? 132 00:08:15,424 --> 00:08:21,024 Speaker 1: He stews, apparently, and then the next day he tweets 133 00:08:21,024 --> 00:08:23,904 Speaker 1: saying announcing that he's quitting the Sinkfield Cup. And he 134 00:08:23,904 --> 00:08:26,104 Speaker 1: doesn't do that. No one just quits a tournament in 135 00:08:26,144 --> 00:08:28,144 Speaker 1: the middle, right, Nobody quits the tournament in the middle. 136 00:08:28,184 --> 00:08:31,824 Speaker 1: And it's a crazy thing to do because he doesn't 137 00:08:31,864 --> 00:08:34,104 Speaker 1: have to play Hans Niman again. It's a round robin. 138 00:08:34,264 --> 00:08:36,624 Speaker 1: He doesn't have to blame again. He might blame again, 139 00:08:36,744 --> 00:08:39,264 Speaker 1: but he was like, I need to take a stand, 140 00:08:39,384 --> 00:08:43,264 Speaker 1: and he issues this tweet that basically has a video 141 00:08:43,344 --> 00:08:46,984 Speaker 1: clip of a soccer coach saying something like I'd like 142 00:08:46,984 --> 00:08:48,664 Speaker 1: to say more, but I can't. I'll get in trouble. 143 00:08:48,704 --> 00:08:51,304 Speaker 1: And it's a soccer coach talking about cheating. Right, He's 144 00:08:51,344 --> 00:08:55,504 Speaker 1: talking about cheating exactly. So everyone knows immediately that Magnus 145 00:08:55,504 --> 00:08:58,944 Speaker 1: Carlson has taken this unprecedented step of quitting this tournament, 146 00:08:59,944 --> 00:09:02,424 Speaker 1: and he is quitting it because he thinks that Hans 147 00:09:02,504 --> 00:09:05,424 Speaker 1: Nieman has cheated. Although he doesn't say that directly, but 148 00:09:05,584 --> 00:09:08,704 Speaker 1: it's so clear that that's what he means. That The 149 00:09:08,744 --> 00:09:12,384 Speaker 1: sink Field Cup adds security measures. They add a fifteen 150 00:09:12,424 --> 00:09:15,264 Speaker 1: minute delay to the broadcast of all the moves from 151 00:09:15,264 --> 00:09:18,704 Speaker 1: the games, and they start scanning players with a radio 152 00:09:18,824 --> 00:09:23,904 Speaker 1: frequency scanner in case they are getting radio signals from 153 00:09:23,944 --> 00:09:27,824 Speaker 1: a confederate. By the way, TMZ was covering the story 154 00:09:27,944 --> 00:09:32,344 Speaker 1: and they showed Hans Nieman getting wanded before he walked 155 00:09:32,344 --> 00:09:34,384 Speaker 1: in to make sure he hadn't have any devices on him, 156 00:09:34,624 --> 00:09:36,984 Speaker 1: which I think it's the first time tmzs cover chess. 157 00:09:37,024 --> 00:09:38,904 Speaker 1: That surely is true. So the thing that I had 158 00:09:38,944 --> 00:09:42,064 Speaker 1: to understand was how easy it is to cheat at 159 00:09:42,184 --> 00:09:46,104 Speaker 1: chess right now. Like back when Gary Casprof lost to 160 00:09:46,224 --> 00:09:49,624 Speaker 1: IBM's Big Blue computer, it was a huge deal. But 161 00:09:49,704 --> 00:09:52,464 Speaker 1: now you can just like open up your smartphone and 162 00:09:52,544 --> 00:09:56,144 Speaker 1: beat the world's best player in chess every time. Right, 163 00:09:56,584 --> 00:09:59,264 Speaker 1: That's exactly right, So that's exactly what happens. So crazy, 164 00:09:59,344 --> 00:10:02,344 Speaker 1: it's crazy. So Big Blue. When we knew about Big Blue, 165 00:10:02,704 --> 00:10:05,264 Speaker 1: back when it beat Gary Casprof, it was this like 166 00:10:05,344 --> 00:10:09,824 Speaker 1: one point four ton machine. It was this massive mainframe. Now, 167 00:10:10,344 --> 00:10:13,264 Speaker 1: if you have a self a smartphone, you can beat 168 00:10:13,544 --> 00:10:16,784 Speaker 1: Magnus Carlson every single time you play if you are 169 00:10:16,824 --> 00:10:20,544 Speaker 1: willing to just read the moves off of what they 170 00:10:20,664 --> 00:10:22,704 Speaker 1: call a chess engine, and the most famous one of 171 00:10:22,704 --> 00:10:26,944 Speaker 1: them is called Stockfish. So Stockfish will never lose apparently, 172 00:10:26,984 --> 00:10:29,944 Speaker 1: will never lose to Magnus Carlson. If you could get signals, 173 00:10:29,984 --> 00:10:32,184 Speaker 1: if you get moves from a cell phone and have 174 00:10:32,664 --> 00:10:35,984 Speaker 1: Stockfish send you the moves, you'll win every time. You know, 175 00:10:36,024 --> 00:10:37,584 Speaker 1: the board is just a bunch of squares, and those 176 00:10:37,624 --> 00:10:40,344 Speaker 1: squares I have a letter and a number, so like 177 00:10:40,384 --> 00:10:43,104 Speaker 1: you know, a through age and one through eight. You 178 00:10:43,104 --> 00:10:45,344 Speaker 1: could just cheat by sending someone a letter in a 179 00:10:45,424 --> 00:10:47,064 Speaker 1: number and it would tell them where to move you, 180 00:10:47,144 --> 00:10:49,384 Speaker 1: kind of like Morse code. This is entirely in the 181 00:10:49,384 --> 00:10:53,344 Speaker 1: realm of speculation because here's the thing. No one's ever 182 00:10:53,384 --> 00:10:56,744 Speaker 1: been caught doing this, and it might be because no 183 00:10:56,784 --> 00:11:00,424 Speaker 1: one's ever done it. So people have been caught cheating before, 184 00:11:00,624 --> 00:11:03,304 Speaker 1: but they do cock and maybe things like they go 185 00:11:03,344 --> 00:11:07,024 Speaker 1: to the bathroom, take out their phone, call Stockfish and 186 00:11:07,944 --> 00:11:10,504 Speaker 1: get the moves while they're in the bathroom. Like some 187 00:11:10,544 --> 00:11:14,144 Speaker 1: of the most famous examples are that there's ham handed 188 00:11:14,184 --> 00:11:18,584 Speaker 1: as that. Now, no one, as far as I've can tell, 189 00:11:18,704 --> 00:11:21,384 Speaker 1: has ever been caught with any kind of a device 190 00:11:21,744 --> 00:11:24,984 Speaker 1: in the socks or anywhere else that can convey the 191 00:11:25,024 --> 00:11:27,584 Speaker 1: messages that you're describing. You know, you could conceive of them, 192 00:11:27,624 --> 00:11:30,464 Speaker 1: you could imagine them easily, but they've never no one's 193 00:11:30,504 --> 00:11:33,784 Speaker 1: ever been caught with such a device, just part of 194 00:11:33,784 --> 00:11:37,984 Speaker 1: what makes Magnus Carlson's accusation so lunatic. Then there's a 195 00:11:38,064 --> 00:11:40,864 Speaker 1: rumor that spreads. I think it starts as a joke, 196 00:11:41,064 --> 00:11:45,384 Speaker 1: like all good conspiracy theories do, that Hans Nieman was 197 00:11:45,544 --> 00:11:49,184 Speaker 1: getting this information about where to move through vibrations in 198 00:11:49,344 --> 00:11:52,544 Speaker 1: anal beads. That's right, but this is like, yes, I mean, 199 00:11:52,864 --> 00:11:54,704 Speaker 1: this is a big rumor that a lot of people 200 00:11:54,704 --> 00:11:56,544 Speaker 1: are talking about, like it was kind of everywhere, right, 201 00:11:57,304 --> 00:12:00,464 Speaker 1: it was everywhere, and Elon Musk tweeted it, so that 202 00:12:00,544 --> 00:12:04,744 Speaker 1: might explain the part of the every awareness and no 203 00:12:04,864 --> 00:12:07,944 Speaker 1: one was really taking the analbead guess that seriously right? 204 00:12:07,984 --> 00:12:11,944 Speaker 1: That was inherently ridiculou It was inherently ridiculous. But it 205 00:12:11,984 --> 00:12:15,584 Speaker 1: was definitely the case that when Mangus Carlson got done 206 00:12:15,584 --> 00:12:19,944 Speaker 1: with this tweet, that people believed that Hans Nieman cheated us, 207 00:12:19,944 --> 00:12:23,744 Speaker 1: even if they had no workable, vible theorious to how 208 00:12:23,784 --> 00:12:26,744 Speaker 1: he did it, let alone any physical evidence that he 209 00:12:26,784 --> 00:12:30,504 Speaker 1: had done it. It's really kind of crazy. I went 210 00:12:30,624 --> 00:12:34,064 Speaker 1: to a sex toy store here in London. There's a 211 00:12:34,064 --> 00:12:37,624 Speaker 1: bunch of the story. It was completely unrelated. It's just 212 00:12:37,624 --> 00:12:39,464 Speaker 1: just purely I want to hear the story anyway, but 213 00:12:39,504 --> 00:12:43,744 Speaker 1: please Yeah. So I went there and I went around 214 00:12:43,744 --> 00:12:46,944 Speaker 1: to three of them, and I just asked them, is 215 00:12:46,984 --> 00:12:50,304 Speaker 1: there any device that you sell that would not show 216 00:12:50,384 --> 00:12:52,984 Speaker 1: up on a metal detector or any of these vibrating 217 00:12:53,024 --> 00:12:57,664 Speaker 1: devices metal free? And they all said, now, they all 218 00:12:57,744 --> 00:13:01,464 Speaker 1: have whatever would connect it to, whatever make it vibrate, 219 00:13:01,624 --> 00:13:04,064 Speaker 1: and whatever would make it receive a signal would have 220 00:13:04,104 --> 00:13:06,464 Speaker 1: to have some metal. So the question is then, like 221 00:13:07,464 --> 00:13:10,984 Speaker 1: gets pretty obscure. It's like, would would a metal detector? 222 00:13:12,264 --> 00:13:14,304 Speaker 1: Does it have enough metal to set off a metal detector? 223 00:13:14,344 --> 00:13:16,144 Speaker 1: All the people that I spoke to these sex toy 224 00:13:16,184 --> 00:13:19,224 Speaker 1: shops that absolutely would. It would set off the metal detector. 225 00:13:19,544 --> 00:13:24,184 Speaker 1: So good luck trying that particular ruse in a chess tournament. 226 00:13:24,264 --> 00:13:27,504 Speaker 1: Sex toy shop workers are a lot more technically reminded 227 00:13:27,544 --> 00:13:32,344 Speaker 1: than I would have guessed. Yeah, maybe you need to be. Yeah, 228 00:13:32,544 --> 00:13:34,784 Speaker 1: there's a lot of technology. There's like and they have 229 00:13:34,824 --> 00:13:38,504 Speaker 1: remote controls. I learned quite a bit. Wow, what a 230 00:13:38,544 --> 00:13:43,944 Speaker 1: great job you have. It's entertaining. Well. This debate over 231 00:13:43,944 --> 00:13:47,104 Speaker 1: whether he cheated or not kind of divides the whole 232 00:13:47,264 --> 00:13:53,624 Speaker 1: Chess World. When Magnus tweets these accusations, what is Hans's response. 233 00:13:54,704 --> 00:13:57,904 Speaker 1: By the time he sits down for his next interview 234 00:13:58,744 --> 00:14:01,984 Speaker 1: at the Sinkfield Cup, He's lived and he gives us 235 00:14:02,224 --> 00:14:08,704 Speaker 1: very impassioned speech, effectively a monologue, where he confesses to 236 00:14:08,864 --> 00:14:11,384 Speaker 1: a lot of things, including cheating at the age of 237 00:14:11,424 --> 00:14:14,384 Speaker 1: twelve and sixteen, and he says, here's why I cheated 238 00:14:14,624 --> 00:14:18,224 Speaker 1: because I wanted to play better players, I wanted better ratings, 239 00:14:19,504 --> 00:14:22,344 Speaker 1: I wanted to play I wanted to get more people 240 00:14:22,384 --> 00:14:26,104 Speaker 1: to watch my Twitch stream. He considers it a terrible 241 00:14:26,544 --> 00:14:31,944 Speaker 1: mistake and that he's spent the last two years trying 242 00:14:31,984 --> 00:14:35,784 Speaker 1: to make up for that mistake. And that's why he 243 00:14:35,824 --> 00:14:39,544 Speaker 1: says he's spent twelve hours a day playing chess, that 244 00:14:39,624 --> 00:14:41,824 Speaker 1: he was motivated to clear his name and to prove 245 00:14:41,904 --> 00:14:43,904 Speaker 1: to himself and the rest of the world that he 246 00:14:43,944 --> 00:14:46,304 Speaker 1: did not need artificial intelligence to play with the best 247 00:14:46,344 --> 00:14:49,624 Speaker 1: players in the world. And you can imagine being outrageous 248 00:14:49,664 --> 00:14:51,664 Speaker 1: to him at the very moment that he proves this 249 00:14:51,744 --> 00:14:53,784 Speaker 1: that he can play with the best players by beating 250 00:14:53,784 --> 00:14:58,224 Speaker 1: the greatest player arguably in history, and being accused of cheating, 251 00:14:58,264 --> 00:15:03,424 Speaker 1: that this would be incredibly aggravating and unnerving. Part of 252 00:15:03,424 --> 00:15:07,384 Speaker 1: that speech sounds a lot to me like Lance Armstrong 253 00:15:07,544 --> 00:15:10,864 Speaker 1: asking people to tell to Urine like this is a 254 00:15:10,944 --> 00:15:14,424 Speaker 1: quote from that speech, Nieman says, they want me to 255 00:15:14,504 --> 00:15:17,584 Speaker 1: strip fully naked, I'll do it. I don't care because 256 00:15:17,624 --> 00:15:19,344 Speaker 1: I know I'm clean. You want me to play in 257 00:15:19,344 --> 00:15:22,864 Speaker 1: a closed box with zero electronic and transmission. I don't care. 258 00:15:23,144 --> 00:15:25,664 Speaker 1: You know, name whatever you guys want. So think of 259 00:15:25,664 --> 00:15:29,064 Speaker 1: it from from Niemen's standpoint. There's nothing here that suggests cheating. 260 00:15:29,504 --> 00:15:33,704 Speaker 1: So if you're Hans Nieman, maybe that is an actual, 261 00:15:34,664 --> 00:15:38,064 Speaker 1: honest expression of your willingness to go the extra mile 262 00:15:38,144 --> 00:15:40,744 Speaker 1: to prove that, in fact, you did not cheat. Okay, 263 00:15:40,784 --> 00:15:46,504 Speaker 1: So these two guys, Hans and Magnus face off again 264 00:15:46,984 --> 00:15:51,144 Speaker 1: just a few weeks later at the Julius Bear Generation Cup. 265 00:15:51,304 --> 00:15:53,504 Speaker 1: I can't believe they play this often. What happens when 266 00:15:53,544 --> 00:15:55,224 Speaker 1: they start playing, They sit down to play this is 267 00:15:55,264 --> 00:16:01,464 Speaker 1: an online tournament, and Magnus Carlson made one move and 268 00:16:01,504 --> 00:16:06,544 Speaker 1: then he resigned. So he basically forfeits this game and 269 00:16:06,584 --> 00:16:11,304 Speaker 1: then releases a much longer tweet that says, I believe 270 00:16:11,304 --> 00:16:14,024 Speaker 1: that Nieman has cheated more and more recently than he 271 00:16:14,144 --> 00:16:17,904 Speaker 1: is publicly admitted is over the board progress has been unusual, 272 00:16:18,184 --> 00:16:20,784 Speaker 1: and throughout our game in the Sinkfield Cup, I had 273 00:16:20,824 --> 00:16:23,544 Speaker 1: the impression that he was intense or even fully concentrating 274 00:16:23,584 --> 00:16:27,024 Speaker 1: on the game in critical positions while out playing me 275 00:16:27,144 --> 00:16:29,104 Speaker 1: as Black in a way that I think only a 276 00:16:29,104 --> 00:16:33,144 Speaker 1: handful of players can do effectively. What he's saying is, 277 00:16:33,824 --> 00:16:37,144 Speaker 1: Hans was way too chilled out during our game. And 278 00:16:37,544 --> 00:16:41,464 Speaker 1: in fact, most people who play Magnus Carlson are kind 279 00:16:41,504 --> 00:16:45,744 Speaker 1: of like they're in a state of fear and anxiety 280 00:16:45,984 --> 00:16:49,184 Speaker 1: and they are concentrating fully. And it is true. You 281 00:16:49,224 --> 00:16:52,184 Speaker 1: can watch video of this game and you will see 282 00:16:52,344 --> 00:16:55,344 Speaker 1: Hans Niemen at the Sinkfield Cup playing Magnus Carlson and 283 00:16:55,384 --> 00:16:58,864 Speaker 1: he's looking around the room and he's chewing gum. It's 284 00:16:58,864 --> 00:17:01,304 Speaker 1: like he's waiting for a bus. Like if you told 285 00:17:01,304 --> 00:17:03,144 Speaker 1: me this kid who's waiting for a bus and be like, okay, 286 00:17:03,184 --> 00:17:06,744 Speaker 1: that's about right, not playing the greatest chess player in history. 287 00:17:07,144 --> 00:17:11,424 Speaker 1: So it's very peculiar. But you know what, everything about 288 00:17:11,464 --> 00:17:16,384 Speaker 1: Hans Zeman's pretty peculiar. Maybe just maybe it's not that 289 00:17:16,544 --> 00:17:21,424 Speaker 1: something was broken about Hans Nieman. Maybe instead, something was 290 00:17:21,544 --> 00:17:26,184 Speaker 1: breaking inside Magnus Carlson. But first, our sponsors are going 291 00:17:26,224 --> 00:17:29,544 Speaker 1: to sell you. I'm guessing some chess shaped sex toys. 292 00:17:30,104 --> 00:17:40,584 Speaker 1: I'd recommend starting with either upon or a bishop. Chess 293 00:17:40,584 --> 00:17:44,104 Speaker 1: dot Com, the biggest chess website, issued a seventy two 294 00:17:44,104 --> 00:17:47,944 Speaker 1: page report saying that Hans Nieman didn't just cheat twice online, 295 00:17:48,544 --> 00:17:52,184 Speaker 1: he cheated more than a hundred times, and they found 296 00:17:52,224 --> 00:17:56,064 Speaker 1: his quick improvement in real life games to be highly suspicious. 297 00:17:56,104 --> 00:17:59,184 Speaker 1: But Chess dot Com had just spent eighty two million 298 00:17:59,184 --> 00:18:03,224 Speaker 1: dollars to buy Magnus Carlson's site, Play Magnus, so they 299 00:18:03,264 --> 00:18:07,304 Speaker 1: weren't exactly a neutral observer. Hans Nieman responded to these 300 00:18:07,344 --> 00:18:11,544 Speaker 1: accusations with a surprising maturity and calmness. No, of course 301 00:18:11,584 --> 00:18:16,304 Speaker 1: he didn't. He sued everyone involved. So Hans is now 302 00:18:16,384 --> 00:18:19,824 Speaker 1: suing Magnus and Chess dot Com for a hundred million 303 00:18:19,904 --> 00:18:26,384 Speaker 1: dollars over their allegedly defamatory claims. Has Hans's career actually 304 00:18:26,424 --> 00:18:28,864 Speaker 1: suffered like one hundred million dollars worth as a result 305 00:18:28,944 --> 00:18:31,904 Speaker 1: of these allegations from Magnus. It's far from clear to 306 00:18:31,944 --> 00:18:33,984 Speaker 1: me that his life is ruined or that his chess 307 00:18:34,024 --> 00:18:36,664 Speaker 1: career is over. He is one of the most famous 308 00:18:36,744 --> 00:18:39,104 Speaker 1: chess players in the world now. There are a lot 309 00:18:39,184 --> 00:18:41,504 Speaker 1: of people who know his name that didn't know it before. 310 00:18:42,104 --> 00:18:44,864 Speaker 1: He's still going to tournaments and he's still doing really well. 311 00:18:45,024 --> 00:18:47,104 Speaker 1: So what do you think's going on? Why would Magnus 312 00:18:47,144 --> 00:18:51,424 Speaker 1: Carlson make this accusation? It was he just like butt hurt? 313 00:18:51,544 --> 00:18:53,304 Speaker 1: Was it just that he's getting older and may not 314 00:18:53,384 --> 00:18:56,744 Speaker 1: be as good and he's panicking or this seems like 315 00:18:57,024 --> 00:19:00,344 Speaker 1: he has such a reputation that this seems like a 316 00:19:00,584 --> 00:19:02,904 Speaker 1: huge risk for him to accuse someone of cheating if 317 00:19:02,904 --> 00:19:05,624 Speaker 1: they weren't. That is a great, great question. It's a 318 00:19:05,664 --> 00:19:08,984 Speaker 1: great mystery. So my assumption is that when Magnus carl 319 00:19:09,064 --> 00:19:13,464 Speaker 1: Wison played him at the FTX, he had heard the 320 00:19:13,544 --> 00:19:16,904 Speaker 1: rumors that Hans was a cheater, and by the time 321 00:19:16,944 --> 00:19:19,544 Speaker 1: he leaves Miami and the FTX and goes to Saint 322 00:19:19,584 --> 00:19:22,144 Speaker 1: Louis for the Sinfield Cup, he's decided that Hans is 323 00:19:22,184 --> 00:19:27,864 Speaker 1: a cheater and that really affected Magnus Carlson's performance. That's 324 00:19:27,904 --> 00:19:30,904 Speaker 1: I think what happened, because what is a greater psyche 325 00:19:30,944 --> 00:19:33,624 Speaker 1: out than to think that you were competing against an 326 00:19:33,704 --> 00:19:38,584 Speaker 1: unbeatable computer. And so I don't doubt that Magnus Carlson 327 00:19:38,624 --> 00:19:42,304 Speaker 1: is utterly sincere. He's just wrong. So this guy who's 328 00:19:42,344 --> 00:19:45,984 Speaker 1: ranked number thirty nine is the only one to beat 329 00:19:46,624 --> 00:19:49,864 Speaker 1: the number one best chess player of all time. And 330 00:19:49,984 --> 00:19:55,504 Speaker 1: the reason you're marshaling forward for that unbelievable defeat happening 331 00:19:55,544 --> 00:19:58,024 Speaker 1: twice is that Carlson psyched himsel out because they thought 332 00:19:58,024 --> 00:20:01,744 Speaker 1: he was playing computer. Yeah, that might be the greatest 333 00:20:02,424 --> 00:20:04,904 Speaker 1: psychological move of all time to convince people you're cheating 334 00:20:04,944 --> 00:20:11,064 Speaker 1: when you're not. Totally absolutely it's an incredible, brilliant like 335 00:20:11,464 --> 00:20:13,704 Speaker 1: psych out. Of course, it's not what Hans and Eman 336 00:20:13,824 --> 00:20:18,224 Speaker 1: intended at all. I think, no idea. Maybe by all 337 00:20:18,264 --> 00:20:22,104 Speaker 1: means in fur the worst. You know, we're clearly on 338 00:20:22,184 --> 00:20:23,944 Speaker 1: other sides of this whole thing. What's going on in 339 00:20:23,944 --> 00:20:25,904 Speaker 1: your life that you're such a Hans fan? What do 340 00:20:25,904 --> 00:20:29,264 Speaker 1: you think emotionally draws you towards him? What happened to 341 00:20:29,344 --> 00:20:32,704 Speaker 1: him is really kind of morally gross. It really is 342 00:20:32,784 --> 00:20:36,224 Speaker 1: kind of repugnant because he was accused of something that 343 00:20:36,304 --> 00:20:39,824 Speaker 1: he didn't do, and there's no way for him to 344 00:20:41,144 --> 00:20:43,904 Speaker 1: prove that he didn't do it other than all of 345 00:20:43,944 --> 00:20:47,344 Speaker 1: the circumstantial proof that's been marshalled on his behalf by 346 00:20:47,344 --> 00:20:50,784 Speaker 1: all sorts of grandmasters in the wake of this little calamity, 347 00:20:50,944 --> 00:20:53,184 Speaker 1: you feel really sure that he didn't cheat. Yeah, he 348 00:20:53,184 --> 00:20:55,824 Speaker 1: did not cheat. The interesting thing to me about these 349 00:20:55,824 --> 00:20:58,304 Speaker 1: stories is the pathos, the kind of like, you know, 350 00:20:58,544 --> 00:21:02,064 Speaker 1: the kind of internal mental anguish of this whole thing, 351 00:21:02,064 --> 00:21:04,904 Speaker 1: and the complexity and nuances of it. You know, there 352 00:21:04,944 --> 00:21:08,864 Speaker 1: were a lot of people who wondered about his mental 353 00:21:08,904 --> 00:21:12,984 Speaker 1: state when this whole Singfield Cup thing happened. You know, 354 00:21:13,024 --> 00:21:14,704 Speaker 1: do you have a support network? There was a Q 355 00:21:14,744 --> 00:21:16,664 Speaker 1: and A thing that happened at the Singfield Cup where 356 00:21:16,664 --> 00:21:19,224 Speaker 1: people got to type in their questions for Hans and 357 00:21:19,224 --> 00:21:20,864 Speaker 1: one of them was like, do you have people to 358 00:21:20,904 --> 00:21:23,384 Speaker 1: talk to? Because, like you can imagine, like he's just 359 00:21:23,424 --> 00:21:25,384 Speaker 1: this nineteen year old kid who's been accused of this 360 00:21:25,704 --> 00:21:29,344 Speaker 1: terrible thing by the most popular and most famous chess 361 00:21:29,344 --> 00:21:33,024 Speaker 1: player in the world. There are cheating scandals everywhere right now. 362 00:21:33,064 --> 00:21:35,784 Speaker 1: There's there's a cheating scandal in poker, there's a cheating 363 00:21:35,784 --> 00:21:39,424 Speaker 1: scandal in bridge. Like it feels like we're at a 364 00:21:39,504 --> 00:21:44,304 Speaker 1: moment when tech is threatening any kind of human interaction 365 00:21:44,744 --> 00:21:47,384 Speaker 1: that's big. That's a big bull statement you just made there, 366 00:21:47,384 --> 00:21:51,584 Speaker 1: My friend, that's what we do on the show. Yeah. 367 00:21:51,784 --> 00:21:54,104 Speaker 1: David Siegel is a reporter for The New York Times 368 00:21:54,144 --> 00:21:56,944 Speaker 1: and wrote he's the bad boy of chess, but did 369 00:21:56,944 --> 00:22:00,344 Speaker 1: he cheat? In The New York Times. David, thank you 370 00:22:00,424 --> 00:22:03,904 Speaker 1: so much. The story is great and it made me 371 00:22:04,464 --> 00:22:08,424 Speaker 1: interested in chess yet again. Thank you. It's a pleasure. 372 00:22:08,584 --> 00:22:14,064 Speaker 1: Thank you. People haven't cared this much about chess since 373 00:22:14,104 --> 00:22:17,024 Speaker 1: Bobby Fisher and he was fighting the Russians at the 374 00:22:17,064 --> 00:22:20,424 Speaker 1: height of the Cold War. The scandal's gotten people's attention 375 00:22:20,544 --> 00:22:24,104 Speaker 1: because we're afraid of smart people. Specifically, we're afraid that 376 00:22:24,184 --> 00:22:27,224 Speaker 1: they're using their smartness to do sneaky things for their 377 00:22:27,224 --> 00:22:33,064 Speaker 1: own advantage. Politicians, lawyers, podcasters. We assume they're using tricks 378 00:22:33,144 --> 00:22:35,904 Speaker 1: to run scams on the rest of us. So when 379 00:22:35,904 --> 00:22:39,624 Speaker 1: one of them gets caught or even accused, we feel vindicated. 380 00:22:40,224 --> 00:22:42,624 Speaker 1: We accuse others, even though we're all doing a little 381 00:22:42,664 --> 00:22:46,384 Speaker 1: cheating ourselves. We cheat a little in our taxes, we 382 00:22:46,464 --> 00:22:51,704 Speaker 1: exaggerate our resumes, we spell out oxyfenbutazone in words with friends, 383 00:22:52,584 --> 00:23:02,344 Speaker 1: and we do it because we assume everyone else's at 384 00:23:02,384 --> 00:23:05,384 Speaker 1: the end of the show, what's next for joel Stein. 385 00:23:05,504 --> 00:23:09,584 Speaker 1: Maybe he'll take a naver poke around online. Our show 386 00:23:09,584 --> 00:23:15,744 Speaker 1: today was produced by Kate mccaulliff, Mola Board and Nishev Bencutt. 387 00:23:16,464 --> 00:23:20,544 Speaker 1: It was edited by Robert Smith. Our engineer is Amanda 388 00:23:20,624 --> 00:23:25,624 Speaker 1: kay Wang and our executive producer is Katherine Giradol. And 389 00:23:25,704 --> 00:23:28,584 Speaker 1: our theme song was written and performed by Jonathan Colton. 390 00:23:28,944 --> 00:23:31,584 Speaker 1: And a special thanks to my voice coach Vicky Merrick 391 00:23:31,824 --> 00:23:36,184 Speaker 1: and my consulting producer laurenz Elasnick. To find more Pushkin podcast, 392 00:23:36,624 --> 00:23:40,464 Speaker 1: listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you 393 00:23:40,504 --> 00:23:43,784 Speaker 1: listen to your podcasts. I'm Joel Stein and the story 394 00:23:43,784 --> 00:23:48,024 Speaker 1: of the week speaks for itself. So the craziest part 395 00:23:48,064 --> 00:23:50,744 Speaker 1: for me was at the sink Field Cup in Saint Louis. 396 00:23:51,264 --> 00:23:55,824 Speaker 1: There are Hans Nieman groupies there exactly. So this was, 397 00:23:56,384 --> 00:23:59,904 Speaker 1: you know, the backlash to the backlash I guess is 398 00:23:59,944 --> 00:24:04,264 Speaker 1: that a group of women showed up in matching cocktail 399 00:24:04,384 --> 00:24:08,024 Speaker 1: dresses and sunglasses, all bearing signs and said, you know, 400 00:24:08,064 --> 00:24:10,664 Speaker 1: we love Hans of his accent, we love his hair, 401 00:24:11,104 --> 00:24:14,784 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. Yeah, supporting them. They look like 402 00:24:14,824 --> 00:24:18,224 Speaker 1: the women from the Robert Palmer video, like the red 403 00:24:18,264 --> 00:24:21,224 Speaker 1: lipstick and the black hair and the black dresses, and 404 00:24:21,264 --> 00:24:23,864 Speaker 1: it just seems like this doesn't happen in chess, right, 405 00:24:24,784 --> 00:24:27,264 Speaker 1: never has happened before. In fact that when they interviewed 406 00:24:27,864 --> 00:24:30,424 Speaker 1: Nieman yet again for I think a third sit down 407 00:24:30,504 --> 00:24:33,024 Speaker 1: interview at the Sinkfield Cup, he said, look, this is 408 00:24:33,064 --> 00:24:35,344 Speaker 1: all very terrible and strange, but at least for the 409 00:24:35,384 --> 00:24:38,144 Speaker 1: first time in history, there are fangirls showing up at 410 00:24:38,144 --> 00:24:40,784 Speaker 1: a chess tournament, which has to be you know, a first. 411 00:24:41,624 --> 00:24:46,504 Speaker 1: Coming up next week, Hawaii's Crazy War over Zombie Cats,