WEBVTT - Inside Trump’s Retribution Campaign

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>This week, the criminal cases against former FBI director James

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<v Speaker 2>Comy a New York Attorney General Letitia James came to

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<v Speaker 2>a sudden halt. A federal judge today tossed out separate

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<v Speaker 2>criminal cases against former FBI director James Comy and New

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<v Speaker 2>York State Attorney General Leticia James. Both Comy and James

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<v Speaker 2>had been facing criminal charges brought by the Trump administration,

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<v Speaker 2>and both had been fighting those charges in court. They

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<v Speaker 2>were both expected to stand trial in January, but on Monday,

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<v Speaker 2>the federal judge presiding over their cases dismissed those charges,

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<v Speaker 2>ruling that the prosecutor tapped by the Department of Justice

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<v Speaker 2>to bring the cases had been illegally appointed.

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<v Speaker 1>Judge Cameron McGowan Curry found the appointment of Lindsay Halligan

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<v Speaker 1>as interim US attorney was invalid and unlawful.

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<v Speaker 2>The White House has said the Department of Justice plans

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<v Speaker 2>to file an appeal, and prosecutors could be able to

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<v Speaker 2>against Comy and James in the future. Comye and James

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<v Speaker 2>are among several of President Trump's perceived political enemies who've

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<v Speaker 2>been investigated or charged by the Department of Justice since

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<v Speaker 2>Trump took office in January. Trump's emphasis on retribution and

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<v Speaker 2>the way the DOJ has been reshaped under his presidency

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<v Speaker 2>is something we've been covering on the show. I recently

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<v Speaker 2>sat down with my Bloomberg colleagues Nancy Cook and Chris Strome,

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<v Speaker 2>who covered the White House and the DOJ, to discuss

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<v Speaker 2>the stakes of the Comye and James cases, the role

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<v Speaker 2>the DJ has played in carrying out Trump's second term agenda,

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<v Speaker 2>and what to expect next. Here's our conversation. For those

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<v Speaker 2>who have been wronged and betrayed, I am your retribution.

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<v Speaker 3>I am your retribution.

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<v Speaker 2>Retribution was a key theme of President Donald Trump's return

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<v Speaker 2>to the White House. Here he is in twenty twenty

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<v Speaker 2>two speaking about the injustice he saw in the convictions

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<v Speaker 2>of January sixth, right, and if it requires pardon, we

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<v Speaker 2>will give them pardons because they are being treated so unfairly.

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<v Speaker 2>And in twenty twenty three talking about the injustice of

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<v Speaker 2>the cases brought against him. But remember it's a democrat

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<v Speaker 2>charging his opponent.

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<v Speaker 1>Nobody's ever seen anything like it.

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<v Speaker 2>That means that if I win and somebody wants to

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<v Speaker 2>run against me.

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<v Speaker 3>I call my Attorney general.

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<v Speaker 2>I say, listen, indict him.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, he hasn't done anything wrong that we know. I

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<v Speaker 3>don't know.

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<v Speaker 2>Indict him on income tax evasion. You'll figure it out.

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<v Speaker 1>Going into his second term, it was an open question

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<v Speaker 1>about how much time would be spent on policy versus

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<v Speaker 1>how much time would be spent on revenge.

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's senior national political reporter Nancy Cook has covered Trump

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<v Speaker 2>for a decade and interviewed him in mar A Lago

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<v Speaker 2>a couple days before the first twenty twenty four presidential debate.

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<v Speaker 1>I think there were people around him who wanted him

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<v Speaker 1>to really build a big policy agenda and were tearing

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<v Speaker 1>him away from the retribution agenda. But what we've seen

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<v Speaker 1>in office so far is that the retribution agenda is

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<v Speaker 1>alive and well, and even more so than I think

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<v Speaker 1>Republicans and even people close to Trump thought were possible.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm Sarah Holder, and this is the big take from

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg News Today. On the show, how Trump is upending

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<v Speaker 2>norms and expanding presidential powers to target his perceived political enemies.

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<v Speaker 2>A major weapon in that fight the Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's Nancy Cook says that when Trump took office in January,

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<v Speaker 2>he made it clear that retribution wasn't just a campaign theme,

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<v Speaker 2>it was a key part of his second term agenda.

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<v Speaker 1>The tools at his disposal are quite large at this

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<v Speaker 1>point because his administration is taking a very broad view

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<v Speaker 1>of presidential executive power. And I would say that unlike

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<v Speaker 1>the first term, this time they have really approached the

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<v Speaker 1>retribution campaign with real military style precision, a lot of

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<v Speaker 1>savviness about how to use the levers of the federal government.

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<v Speaker 1>We saw him very quickly go after law firms that

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<v Speaker 1>had done work for people he didn't like, using social

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<v Speaker 1>media to go after people pulling security clearances, and then

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<v Speaker 1>lately we've seen him go after specific people who have

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<v Speaker 1>been personally critical of the Trump administration.

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<v Speaker 2>The Department of Justice has indicted former FBI Director James Core.

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<v Speaker 1>President Trump's former national security advisor, John Bolten, has just

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<v Speaker 1>been on the Attorney General Letitia James has been indicted.

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<v Speaker 2>Part of what's enabled the Trump administration to pursue these

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<v Speaker 2>targets is the cooperation of the Department of Justice.

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<v Speaker 3>Pam Bondi said during her confirmation hearing to be Attorney

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<v Speaker 3>General that she wasn't going to have an enemy's list

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<v Speaker 3>at the Justice Department, but she doesn't need an enemy's

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<v Speaker 3>list because she has been given Trump's enemies list.

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<v Speaker 2>Chris Strom covers the Department of Justice for Bloomberg.

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<v Speaker 3>Across the board, Bondie and her top staff have been

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<v Speaker 3>carrying out essentially a purge at the Justice Department, where

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<v Speaker 3>hundreds of people, career prosecutors and staff have been fired

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<v Speaker 3>or resigned, and in concert with that, they've been investigating

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<v Speaker 3>and now prosecuting individuals who Trump has identified as being

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<v Speaker 3>his political enemies. They are carrying out broad, sweeping investigations

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<v Speaker 3>into what Trump and his allies have said is a

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<v Speaker 3>grand conspiracy against Trump dating back to twenty sixteen, starting

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<v Speaker 3>with the Russian investigation, going into the Mouler investigation, going

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<v Speaker 3>into the investigation to Trump's efforts to overturn the tw

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<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty election, and then the investigation into Trump retaining

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<v Speaker 3>classified documents.

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<v Speaker 2>It seems he doesn't view this as weaponizing the justice system.

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<v Speaker 2>He views this as using the justice system in the

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<v Speaker 2>same way that it was used against him.

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<v Speaker 3>Is that fair? Yeah. One of the really interesting approaches

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<v Speaker 3>that Trump and his allies are taking is to say

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<v Speaker 3>that the Justice Department was weaponized against them, and therefore

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<v Speaker 3>they're trying to correct the record. They're trying to prosecute

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<v Speaker 3>people who carried out criminal actions up to and including

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<v Speaker 3>treason against Trump. And if you look at the actions

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<v Speaker 3>that are being taken now against Jim Comey or Letitia

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<v Speaker 3>James or John Bolton, a lot of it is finding

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<v Speaker 3>any kind of charge that they possibly can to hang

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<v Speaker 3>onto somebody. It doesn't matter that these charges or just

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<v Speaker 3>don't have anything to do with a grand conspiracy. All

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<v Speaker 3>that matters is that these people are under investigation and

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<v Speaker 3>now being prosecuted. And so Trump can claim that he's

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<v Speaker 3>been right all along in saying that these people are

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<v Speaker 3>dirty and these people are corrupt, and therefore they deserve

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<v Speaker 3>to go to jail.

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<v Speaker 2>Are there any mechanisms in place that are supposed to

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<v Speaker 2>prevent the president from using the Department of Justice in

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<v Speaker 2>this way.

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<v Speaker 3>One of the really interesting lessons from the Trump era

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<v Speaker 3>is that what we thought were rules and regulations governing

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<v Speaker 3>how the Justice Department operated and how criminal prosecutions were

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<v Speaker 3>conducted actually don't really exist. What Trump has exposed is

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<v Speaker 3>that we've been relying on a series of norms and

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<v Speaker 3>traditions where the Justice Department would willingly have a distance

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<v Speaker 3>in an independence from the administration. Multiple attorney generals and

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<v Speaker 3>arment officials across administrations have enforced policies and rules that

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<v Speaker 3>would separate the Justice Department from the White House when

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<v Speaker 3>it came to conducting investigations and making decisions about prosecutions.

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<v Speaker 3>Trump has obliterated that he's come in with a wrecking

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<v Speaker 3>ball and essentially has declared himself as being the chief

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<v Speaker 3>law enforcement officer of the country and the person who

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<v Speaker 3>can make decisions about who should be prosecuted and even

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<v Speaker 3>how they can be prosecuted.

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<v Speaker 2>Nancy Cooke says that change in norms is something you

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<v Speaker 2>can actually see.

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<v Speaker 1>One thing that has struck me just visually about Trump

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<v Speaker 1>in the second term is Pam Bondy is over in

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<v Speaker 1>the Oval Office a lot of public events. I covered

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<v Speaker 1>the first Trump term, I covered two years of Biden's

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<v Speaker 1>White House, Like I don't remember Mark Gartland being over

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<v Speaker 1>in the Oval Office all the time for events. Pam

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<v Speaker 1>Bondy is over there, often standing behind Trump as he

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<v Speaker 1>makes pronouncements, standing there with other officials. I would say

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<v Speaker 1>they're upending a lot of the legal agencies, including the FBI,

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<v Speaker 1>the CIA, but it's like she is visually aligned with

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<v Speaker 1>the president in these photo ops all the time as well.

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<v Speaker 2>The distance and independence the White House has traditionally kept

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<v Speaker 2>from the Department of Justice is a modern phenomenon that

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<v Speaker 2>only dates back to the aftermath of Richard Nixon's presidency

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<v Speaker 2>and the Watergate scandal.

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<v Speaker 3>Nixon tried to use the powers of the presidency in

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<v Speaker 3>order to investigate his political enemies, and Nixon tried to

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<v Speaker 3>actually tell the Justice Department how to carry out investigations.

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<v Speaker 3>Members of Congress actually stood up to the president and

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<v Speaker 3>determined that the actions that were being taken were offensive,

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<v Speaker 3>that there had to be certain guardrails put in place,

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<v Speaker 3>and so that's when you began to see laws that

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<v Speaker 3>were actually passed, such as creating inspector generals within these agencies.

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<v Speaker 3>But during this Trump administration, those safeguards have just been

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<v Speaker 3>knocked down. Trump fired a bunch of inspector generals. He

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<v Speaker 3>has declared that he can do what he wants with

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<v Speaker 3>the Justice Department, and you're not seeing the same pushback

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<v Speaker 3>in Congress that you did forty years ago.

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<v Speaker 2>Coming up, what's next In the cases of former FBI

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<v Speaker 2>Director James Comy and new York State Attorney General Letitia James,

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<v Speaker 2>and what kind of new precedent Trump's norm breaking DJ

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<v Speaker 2>could set. It's been over half a century since Nixon's

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<v Speaker 2>Watergate scandal pushed Congress to create firmer boundaries between the

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<v Speaker 2>Department of Justice and the president, but now Trump has

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<v Speaker 2>started breaking them. Critics said that many of the indictments

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<v Speaker 2>Trump's DOJ has opened so far are motivated by the

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<v Speaker 2>president's quest for revenge. Trump doesn't see it that way.

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<v Speaker 3>It's about Justico's thrill.

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<v Speaker 2>It's not revenge is about. In late September, he was

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<v Speaker 2>asked about the indictment of former FBI director James Comy

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<v Speaker 2>as he boarded Air Force one. Komy was charged with

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<v Speaker 2>making a false statement and obstructing a congressional proceeding related

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<v Speaker 2>to his twenty twenty testimony at a Senate Judiciary hearing.

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<v Speaker 2>He's pleaded not guilty, as it's also about the fact

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<v Speaker 2>that you can't let this go on. They are sick,

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<v Speaker 2>radical left people and they can't get away with it

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<v Speaker 2>and call me, call me was one of the people.

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<v Speaker 1>He wasn't.

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<v Speaker 2>Comy first got on Trump's bad side back in twenty sixteen,

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<v Speaker 2>when Comy opened an investigation into alleged ties between Trump's

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<v Speaker 2>first presidential campaign and Russia. That was the original Sin

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<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg DOJ reporter Chris Strome.

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<v Speaker 3>Devestigation continued. Trump fired Komi in May of twenty seventeen,

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<v Speaker 3>and Komy then leaked some of his written memos about

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<v Speaker 3>his interactions with Trump, and the public revelations were very

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<v Speaker 3>damaging to Trump and actually led the Justice Department at

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<v Speaker 3>that time to appoint Special Counsel Moler to carry on

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<v Speaker 3>the Russian investigation, and ever since then, Trump has vilified

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<v Speaker 3>Komi and called for his prosecution.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was something he couldn't get done in his

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<v Speaker 2>first term and became a big priority and part of

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<v Speaker 2>how he shaped the Justice Department in his second term.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he was not getting the results he wanted during

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<v Speaker 3>the beginning of his second administration, and so he put

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<v Speaker 3>out a very public demand on social media, essentially in

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<v Speaker 3>order to Bondie, demanding that Komi and others like Letitia

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<v Speaker 3>James be prosecuted. And it was only days later that

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<v Speaker 3>the White House installed one of Trump's White House aides,

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<v Speaker 3>Lindsay Halligan, who Trump abruptly put in as the interim

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<v Speaker 3>UIs Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia, and just

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<v Speaker 3>days after she was inserted into that position, she brought

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<v Speaker 3>an indictment against James Comy, and then a couple weeks later,

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<v Speaker 3>she brought an indictment against Letitia James.

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<v Speaker 2>James had launched a federal civil fraud case against Trump

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<v Speaker 2>and the Trump Organization in twenty twenty two and one

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<v Speaker 2>in October, she was charged with mortgage occupancy fraud and

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<v Speaker 2>for making false statements to a financial institution. She's also

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<v Speaker 2>pleaded not guilty.

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<v Speaker 3>The career prosecutors working in the Eastern District of Virginia

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<v Speaker 3>had reached a decision that there was no justification to

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<v Speaker 3>bring these cases against Comy and James and that most

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<v Speaker 3>likely these cases would fail in court.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm wondering how Trump, being very open about his dislike

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<v Speaker 2>of Comy might play into this case, because I know

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<v Speaker 2>Komy has asked for the charges against him to be dismissed,

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<v Speaker 2>arguing that he is being personally targeted.

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<v Speaker 3>Komy has already filed a motion to say that the

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<v Speaker 3>indictment against him should be dismissed because it represents an

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<v Speaker 3>addictive and selective prosecution, and his legal team has cited

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<v Speaker 3>the multitude of times that Trump has disparaged Comy or

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<v Speaker 3>called for his prosecution. These motions have already been made,

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<v Speaker 3>they're under consideration by the judge, and trying to succeed

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<v Speaker 3>with emotion claiming vindictive and selective prosecution is very difficult.

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<v Speaker 3>A lot of defendants do it but don't have success.

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<v Speaker 3>Komy might be the poster child for a case that

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<v Speaker 3>can actually succeed, and if Comy's motion succeeds, it most

0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.920
<v Speaker 3>likely will also be replicated by Letitia James in her

0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:02.480
<v Speaker 3>and others who are still to come.

0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:06.400
<v Speaker 2>Comy and James, for their part, are both determined to

0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.280
<v Speaker 2>fight their charges in court. Their trials are set for January,

0:15:10.960 --> 0:15:14.200
<v Speaker 2>and over the past year, several DOJ attorneys have resigned

0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:17.960
<v Speaker 2>in protest over directives they were given in other investigations.

0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:22.440
<v Speaker 2>But Chris says Trump's DOJ is facing resistance that's much

0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:24.560
<v Speaker 2>more mutant than it was in the Nixon era.

0:15:25.080 --> 0:15:27.600
<v Speaker 3>Congress has largely been absent. I mean Democrats don't have

0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.960
<v Speaker 3>any power. They don't control either the House or the Senate,

0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:33.720
<v Speaker 3>and so in order to have oversight hearings or to

0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:38.040
<v Speaker 3>demand information from the administration or issue subpoenas that can

0:15:38.080 --> 0:15:40.720
<v Speaker 3>only come from the Republican majority, and they're not doing it.

0:15:41.040 --> 0:15:45.440
<v Speaker 3>You do have individuals inside agencies such as the Justice

0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:49.120
<v Speaker 3>Department that are questioning what the White House and what

0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:53.080
<v Speaker 3>Trump are doing. There have been some examples where even

0:15:53.160 --> 0:15:57.760
<v Speaker 3>Attorney General Bondie and Deputy Attorney General Todd Blanche have

0:15:58.320 --> 0:16:04.680
<v Speaker 3>resisted certain steps that Trump and his allies want the

0:16:04.760 --> 0:16:08.840
<v Speaker 3>Justice Department to take. There's still some open questions about

0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:12.840
<v Speaker 3>what the Justice Department is going to do with some

0:16:12.960 --> 0:16:17.360
<v Speaker 3>of these cases that they haven't been fully on board

0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.400
<v Speaker 3>with what Trump has been demanding that they do.

0:16:20.760 --> 0:16:24.760
<v Speaker 2>I'm curious about long term precedent here. It's something that

0:16:24.760 --> 0:16:26.520
<v Speaker 2>comes up a lot when we talk about the way

0:16:26.560 --> 0:16:30.360
<v Speaker 2>that Trump is operating as president. Is it possible and

0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:34.160
<v Speaker 2>is it a concern that future US leaders, Republican or Democrat,

0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:36.920
<v Speaker 2>could turn around and do the same thing to their

0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:41.200
<v Speaker 2>political opponents or use the DOJ to similar ends.

0:16:41.640 --> 0:16:44.480
<v Speaker 3>Yes, I mean that's one of the concerns that has

0:16:44.520 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 3>been raised is that as Trump breaks down the walls

0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:51.560
<v Speaker 3>that have existed between the Justice Department and the White House,

0:16:52.200 --> 0:16:55.840
<v Speaker 3>he's setting a new precedent that any administration going forward

0:16:55.960 --> 0:17:00.280
<v Speaker 3>can use, and there's really nothing to stop that from

0:17:00.320 --> 0:17:05.639
<v Speaker 3>happening short of either a public outcry that becomes so

0:17:05.760 --> 0:17:11.560
<v Speaker 3>overwhelming or congressional resistance. I think for Trump and his allies,

0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.720
<v Speaker 3>it's not even a matter of getting a conviction. It's

0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:22.080
<v Speaker 3>the process of indicting these individuals and forcing them to

0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:26.120
<v Speaker 3>have to get legal representation and go through court processes.

0:17:26.600 --> 0:17:28.880
<v Speaker 3>The process is the punishment, not.

0:17:28.760 --> 0:17:31.480
<v Speaker 1>Just the process as the punishment, but also the message

0:17:31.520 --> 0:17:32.879
<v Speaker 1>that it sends to other people.

0:17:33.080 --> 0:17:37.080
<v Speaker 2>Bloomberg's senior national political reporter Nancy Cook again, if you.

0:17:37.200 --> 0:17:39.919
<v Speaker 1>Speak out, there is a huge rist that will go

0:17:39.960 --> 0:17:42.719
<v Speaker 1>after you. And I think that you're seeing in Washington,

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:45.359
<v Speaker 1>DC a lot of self censorship, you know, with like

0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:48.399
<v Speaker 1>maybe lawyers not speaking out as much, or former Trump

0:17:48.400 --> 0:17:51.000
<v Speaker 1>officials who were very vocal and on TV a lot

0:17:51.119 --> 0:17:53.720
<v Speaker 1>going quiet. And so I do think that it's it's

0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:57.360
<v Speaker 1>the message that you know, you just keep it to yourself.

0:17:58.320 --> 0:18:00.879
<v Speaker 2>In late September, Trump was asked was next on his

0:18:00.960 --> 0:18:04.720
<v Speaker 2>list after the Komy indictment, and he said he isn't done,

0:18:05.320 --> 0:18:08.119
<v Speaker 2>not a list, but I think there'll be others. The

0:18:08.160 --> 0:18:11.640
<v Speaker 2>next wave of indictments could come as soon as January,

0:18:12.040 --> 0:18:15.320
<v Speaker 2>when a federal grand jury convenes in Florida, the Trump's

0:18:15.359 --> 0:18:18.320
<v Speaker 2>allies expect will investigate what they believe has been a

0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:22.679
<v Speaker 2>long running conspiracy by former government officials to undermine Trump.

0:18:22.960 --> 0:18:26.080
<v Speaker 3>Trump has even said that the Justice Department needs to

0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:30.880
<v Speaker 3>take a look at Merrick Garland, Chris Ray, Lisa Monico,

0:18:31.520 --> 0:18:35.280
<v Speaker 3>Jack Smith. These were all the key officials in charge

0:18:35.280 --> 0:18:40.560
<v Speaker 3>of investigations that were against Trump. So that's the next

0:18:40.840 --> 0:18:45.520
<v Speaker 3>phase of the retribution campaign that I'm really paying attention

0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:49.159
<v Speaker 3>to right now, in which individuals will get swept up

0:18:49.200 --> 0:18:49.639
<v Speaker 3>into that.

0:18:50.160 --> 0:18:51.840
<v Speaker 1>And also, you have to keep in mind we're only

0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.639
<v Speaker 1>in year one of his four years second term, so

0:18:55.040 --> 0:18:58.320
<v Speaker 1>it's very unclear to me what does the Justice Department

0:18:58.400 --> 0:18:59.280
<v Speaker 1>look like at the end.

0:18:59.200 --> 0:19:07.480
<v Speaker 2>Of this This is The Big Take from Bloomberg News.

0:19:07.560 --> 0:19:10.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm Sarah Holder. To get more from The Big Take

0:19:10.240 --> 0:19:14.000
<v Speaker 2>and unlimited access to all of Bloomberg dot Com, subscribe

0:19:14.040 --> 0:19:18.119
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0:19:18.240 --> 0:19:20.720
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0:19:20.760 --> 0:19:23.680
<v Speaker 2>Big Take wherever you listen to podcasts. It helps people

0:19:23.720 --> 0:19:27.000
<v Speaker 2>find the show. Thanks for listening. We'll be back tomorrow.