1 00:00:11,720 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to wok F Daily with 2 00:00:14,760 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: Meet your Girl Danielle Moody, recording from the Home Bunker. Folks, 3 00:00:20,040 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: I have to tell you that if you have not 4 00:00:23,560 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: read the piece that is in the Atlantic right now 5 00:00:28,280 --> 00:00:32,559 Speaker 1: for the November twenty twenty three issue, a special preview 6 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:45,160 Speaker 1: entitled The Patriot about Mark Millie, and folks, I don't 7 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: even know where to begin with this. Let me say this. 8 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:59,360 Speaker 1: We have become so numb to devastating reports, to rampant criminality, 9 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:08,040 Speaker 1: to to just blatant disregard, disdain for the Constitution that 10 00:01:09,680 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 1: we shrug off Donald Trump, We shrug off his enablers 11 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:19,280 Speaker 1: as a way to really protect ourselves, right, Like, let's 12 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: be honest, there's only so much disappointment, anger, rage that 13 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:29,240 Speaker 1: a person can feel before you just go numb. 14 00:01:30,520 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: Right. 15 00:01:32,360 --> 00:01:36,399 Speaker 1: And I try desperately on this show each and every 16 00:01:36,640 --> 00:01:43,800 Speaker 1: day and each and every week to lessen the rage, right, 17 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 1: bring attention to the issues, lessen the rage, and sharpen 18 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:55,040 Speaker 1: our attention and have us exercise our power in a 19 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:59,600 Speaker 1: way that matters. And I got to tell you that 20 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:04,200 Speaker 1: this piece that is written by the editor in chief 21 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:09,680 Speaker 1: of the Atlantic, Jeffrey Goldberg entitled The Patriot How General 22 00:02:09,720 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: Mark Milly Protected the Constitution from Donald Trump is probably 23 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:21,240 Speaker 1: one of the most devastating reads I have had, and 24 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:24,200 Speaker 1: I'm not finished with it yet because it is that long. 25 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: But this is what I will tell you that Mark Milly, 26 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,520 Speaker 1: while he was serving as Chairman of the Joint chief 27 00:02:34,520 --> 00:02:43,519 Speaker 1: of Staff, basically by reporting by Jeffrey Blue Jeffrey Goldberg, 28 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: basically saved the world from nuclear war, basically saved America 29 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:02,440 Speaker 1: from Donald Trump. And what we learn in this piece 30 00:03:02,720 --> 00:03:07,840 Speaker 1: is that Donald Trump chose Mark Milly to be the 31 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: Joint the Chairman of the Joint chiefs of Staff because 32 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:15,600 Speaker 1: he liked his bild, he liked all of his medals, 33 00:03:16,160 --> 00:03:19,360 Speaker 1: and in Donald Trump's mind, where everything is basically the 34 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:24,160 Speaker 1: Truman Show just put together for esthetics, right and for 35 00:03:24,280 --> 00:03:27,920 Speaker 1: the showmanship of it all, Mark Milly fit the bill. 36 00:03:29,639 --> 00:03:33,239 Speaker 1: The thing was that Donald Trump thought that he had 37 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:38,120 Speaker 1: a pocket general, a general that was going to bend 38 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,840 Speaker 1: to his every whim who was swaring swearing an oath 39 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:47,640 Speaker 1: to Donald Trump and to trump Ism and to the 40 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: Republican Party and not to the Constitution of the United States. 41 00:03:54,240 --> 00:04:00,800 Speaker 1: What he found, however, was a man who like him 42 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:07,560 Speaker 1: or hate him, He's a man that has dedicated his 43 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: life to public service, dedicated his life to military service, 44 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: and dedicated his life to upholding the Constitution. In this piece, folks, 45 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:26,839 Speaker 1: that I tell you to read, it is just rife 46 00:04:27,080 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: with the fact that Donald Trump isn't just a buffoon, 47 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 1: he isn't just an idiot. He is extraordinarily fucking dangerous. 48 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:46,120 Speaker 1: And that anyone, any Republican, whether they are a candidate 49 00:04:46,240 --> 00:04:49,960 Speaker 1: for the Republican Party right now trailing behind Donald Trump 50 00:04:50,040 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 1: by thirty forty points, whether they are insurrectionist members of Congress, 51 00:04:56,839 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: these people are willing to put this man back in 52 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: a position where he can make decisions about nuclear war, 53 00:05:10,440 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 1: where he can make decisions to turn the military on 54 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:22,839 Speaker 1: the American people. And this piece, folks, is kind of 55 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:29,119 Speaker 1: extraordinary in the fact that, like I genuinely didn't think 56 00:05:30,120 --> 00:05:40,400 Speaker 1: that I could be shocked again, but I was not 57 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: to mention the fact that Donald Trump said disgusting things 58 00:05:47,839 --> 00:05:58,080 Speaker 1: about wounded veterans, has no understanding of how the Constitution works, 59 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: and is probably the most dangerous person in the world, honestly, 60 00:06:07,800 --> 00:06:15,000 Speaker 1: is Donald Trump. And here is just a little bit 61 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: of this piece which is just yeah, folks, it's fucking 62 00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:31,359 Speaker 1: wild here. It is. The missiles that comprise the land 63 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: component of america Nuclear triad are scattered across thousands of 64 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 1: square miles of prairie and farmland, mainly in North Dakota, Montana, 65 00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:44,040 Speaker 1: and Wyoming. About one hundred and fifty of the roughly 66 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:50,799 Speaker 1: four hundred minute men third Interconnect intercontinental ballistic missiles currently 67 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:55,120 Speaker 1: on alert are dispersed in wide circle in a wide 68 00:06:55,160 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: circle around Minote Air Force Base in the upper reaches 69 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:05,120 Speaker 1: of North Dakota. The nuclear weapons are under the control 70 00:07:05,160 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 1: of the ninety first Missile Wing of the Air Force 71 00:07:07,839 --> 00:07:13,080 Speaker 1: Global Strike Command, and it was to the ninety first 72 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:16,040 Speaker 1: the Rough Riders that General Mark Milly, the Chairman of 73 00:07:16,080 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: the Joint Chiefs of Staff, paid a visit in March 74 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. I accompanied him on the trip. A 75 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: little more than two months had passed since the January 76 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:30,080 Speaker 1: sixth attack on the Capitol, and America's nuclear arsenal was 77 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: on Milly's mind. In normal times, the Chairman of the 78 00:07:34,760 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: Joint Chiefs, the principal military advisor to the President, is 79 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,080 Speaker 1: supposed to focus his attention on America's national security challenges 80 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:47,600 Speaker 1: and on the readiness and lethality of its armed forces. 81 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:52,360 Speaker 1: But for the first sixteen months of Milly's term, a 82 00:07:52,400 --> 00:07:56,320 Speaker 1: period that ended when Joe Biden succeeded Donald Trump as president, 83 00:07:56,800 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 1: were not normal because Trump was exceptionally, exceptionally unfit to 84 00:08:04,120 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: serve quote for more than two hundred years, the assumption 85 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 1: in this country was that we would have a stable 86 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:18,280 Speaker 1: person as president. One of Milly's mentors, the retired three 87 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: star general James Dubuke, told me that this assumption did 88 00:08:23,040 --> 00:08:27,560 Speaker 1: not hold true during the Trump administration, presented quote a 89 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 1: unique challenge for Milly, Dubuch said. Milly was careful to 90 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:38,400 Speaker 1: refrain from commenting publicly on Trump's cognitive unfitness and moral derangement. 91 00:08:39,320 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 1: In interviews, he would say that it is not the 92 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,880 Speaker 1: place of the nation's flag officers to discuss the performance 93 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,960 Speaker 1: of the nation's civilian leaders. But his views emerged in 94 00:08:51,000 --> 00:08:54,840 Speaker 1: a number of books published after Trump left office, written 95 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:58,240 Speaker 1: by authors who had spoken with Milly and many other 96 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: civilian and military officials on background. In The Divider, Peter 97 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:07,480 Speaker 1: Baker and Susan Glazer write that Milly believed that Trump 98 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:12,640 Speaker 1: was quote shameful and quote complicit. In the January sixth attack. 99 00:09:13,400 --> 00:09:16,920 Speaker 1: They also reported that Milly feared that Trump's quote Hitler 100 00:09:17,120 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: like embrace of the big lie about the election would 101 00:09:20,800 --> 00:09:26,880 Speaker 1: prompt the president to seek out a Reichstag moment. These 102 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:29,719 Speaker 1: views of Trump aligned with those of many officials who 103 00:09:29,840 --> 00:09:35,440 Speaker 1: served in his administration. Trump's first Secretary of State, rec Tillerson. 104 00:09:35,840 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: Rex Tillerson considered Trump to be quote a fucking moron. 105 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,680 Speaker 1: John Kelly, the retired Marine general who served as Trump's 106 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: chief of staff in twenty seventeen and twenty eighteen, has 107 00:09:47,760 --> 00:09:51,440 Speaker 1: said that Trump is the quote most flawed person he's 108 00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:56,440 Speaker 1: ever met. James Mattis, who was also a retired Marine 109 00:09:56,480 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: general and served as Trump's first secretary of Defense, had 110 00:10:00,160 --> 00:10:02,840 Speaker 1: told friends and colleagues that the forty fifth president was 111 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: quote more dangerous than anyone could ever imagine. It is 112 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:12,320 Speaker 1: widely known that Trump's second Secretary of Defense, Mark Esper, 113 00:10:12,720 --> 00:10:16,480 Speaker 1: believed that the President didn't understand his own duties, much 114 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:20,440 Speaker 1: less the oath that officers swear to the Constitution, or 115 00:10:20,880 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: military ethics, or the history of America. Twenty men have 116 00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: served as the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs since the 117 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 1: position was created after World War II, until Milly, none 118 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: had been forced to confront the possibility that a president 119 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: would try to foment or provoke a coup in order 120 00:10:46,040 --> 00:10:50,520 Speaker 1: to illegally remain in office. A plain reading of the 121 00:10:50,600 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: record shows that in the chaotic period before and after 122 00:10:55,640 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election, Milli did as much as or 123 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:03,320 Speaker 1: more than any other American to defend the constitutional order, 124 00:11:03,720 --> 00:11:08,000 Speaker 1: to prevent the military from being deployed against the American people, 125 00:11:08,120 --> 00:11:12,559 Speaker 1: and to forestall the eruption of wars with America's nuclear 126 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:19,400 Speaker 1: armed adversaries. Along the way, Milli deflected Trump's exhortions to 127 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:24,040 Speaker 1: have the US military ignore and even on occasion, commit 128 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: war crimes. Milli and other military officers deserve praise for 129 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: protecting democracy, but their actions should also cause deep unease 130 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:39,960 Speaker 1: in the American system. It is the voters, the courts, 131 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 1: and Congress that are meant to serve as checks on 132 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 1: a president's behavior, not the generals. Civilians provide direction, funding, 133 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: and oversight. The military then follows lawful orders. The difficulty 134 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,400 Speaker 1: of the task before Milli was captured most suit succinctly 135 00:12:01,960 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: by Lieutenant General H. R. McMaster, the second of Trump's 136 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:11,560 Speaker 1: four national security advisors, quote as Chairman, you swear to 137 00:12:11,640 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: support and defend the Constitution of the United States, But 138 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:21,679 Speaker 1: what if the commander in chief is undermining the constitution? 139 00:12:22,520 --> 00:12:27,440 Speaker 1: McMasters said to me for the actions he took in 140 00:12:27,480 --> 00:12:30,960 Speaker 1: the last months of the Trump presidency. Milly, whose four 141 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: year term as Chairman and forty three year career as 142 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 1: an Army officer will conclude at the end of September, 143 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 1: has been condemned by elements of the far right. Cash Patel, 144 00:12:43,520 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: whom Trump installed in a senior Pentagon role in the 145 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:49,200 Speaker 1: final days of his administration, refers to Milly as the 146 00:12:49,559 --> 00:12:54,120 Speaker 1: Kraken of the swamp. Trump himself has accused Milly of treason. 147 00:12:54,800 --> 00:12:59,160 Speaker 1: Sebastian Gorka, a former Trump White House official, said that 148 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: Milly deserves to be placed in quote shackles and leg irons. 149 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:08,280 Speaker 1: If a second Trump administration were to attempt this, however, 150 00:13:08,720 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: the trump Is faction would be opposed by the large 151 00:13:11,679 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: group of ex Trump administration officials who believe that the 152 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: former president continues to pose a unique threat to American 153 00:13:19,720 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: democracy and who believe that Millie is a hero for 154 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: what he did to protect the country and the constitution. Folks, 155 00:13:29,120 --> 00:13:39,480 Speaker 1: that is just a snippet of this eye popping, mouth dropping, 156 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:48,440 Speaker 1: unbelievable piece up at the Atlantic right now. I cannot 157 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 1: express enough Donald Trump is not a clown, He is 158 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,000 Speaker 1: not a joke. He may be a buffoon and a fool, 159 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 1: but he is the most dangerous, serious, violent threat to 160 00:14:04,960 --> 00:14:13,839 Speaker 1: our democracy, to the stability of the world. General Millie 161 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: and others did what they could in order to protect 162 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: our democracy from completely literally blowing up. They did it once, 163 00:14:29,440 --> 00:14:32,080 Speaker 1: but they will not be able to do it again. 164 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 1: America remains in danger. Coming up next, my conversation with 165 00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: our friend, our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Metzel, who 166 00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: talks about his upcoming book and why he thinks that 167 00:14:50,000 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: it is necessary to make a significant change in the 168 00:14:54,120 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 1: way that we're dealing with guns in America. Folks, you 169 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,640 Speaker 1: know that whenever I have the opportunity to speak with 170 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: our in house doctor, doctor Jonathan Neffil, I am always 171 00:15:07,080 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: always uh pleased and excited, and particularly since I just 172 00:15:11,480 --> 00:15:16,360 Speaker 1: got your email about your new book coming in January, 173 00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: and I love it, love the cover. I'm not going 174 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 1: to tease anything unless we're allowed to tease things that 175 00:15:24,280 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 1: are we allowed to teach. 176 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 2: We can tease a of it Okay, So. 177 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 1: Jonathan uh, you wrote the book literally on dying of whiteness, 178 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,720 Speaker 1: and your next book is entitled What. 179 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:39,280 Speaker 2: We've Become Living and Dying in a Country of Arms? 180 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: And there is a bullet hole in Is it a counter? 181 00:15:46,280 --> 00:15:46,840 Speaker 2: It's a counter? 182 00:15:47,000 --> 00:15:50,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, there's a bullet hole and encounter. The cover 183 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: of the book, folks, is incredibly jarring, right and meant 184 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: to and meant to be. So what are what are 185 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:03,200 Speaker 1: your hopes and thoughts around this book in this time 186 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,640 Speaker 1: that we're living in, Jonathan, Because I mean, let me 187 00:16:06,800 --> 00:16:10,720 Speaker 1: your profit. Some people should know that because you wrote 188 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 1: about dying of whiteness before we anyone and wanted to 189 00:16:14,280 --> 00:16:16,440 Speaker 1: admit that that is what people are willing to do, 190 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,560 Speaker 1: and wrote the entire book on it and the ideology 191 00:16:20,600 --> 00:16:23,600 Speaker 1: around it. This book is about how we've been doing 192 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:28,320 Speaker 1: gun reform wrong or what we need to change. 193 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: So let me just say, first of all, there's a 194 00:16:31,120 --> 00:16:33,680 Speaker 2: lot of amazing stuff that's happening in the gun reform 195 00:16:33,800 --> 00:16:36,320 Speaker 2: space right now. There's going to be a White House 196 00:16:36,320 --> 00:16:40,400 Speaker 2: announcement tomorrow that they're going to create a new Office 197 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: of Gun Safety, and just people are working hard, you know, 198 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 2: David Hogan, other people are starting a new organization to 199 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:56,720 Speaker 2: see political candidates. When I started the book, a lot 200 00:16:56,760 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 2: of that wasn't happening. And so I let me just 201 00:16:58,960 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: first say that I'm encouraged by what's happening. But the 202 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 2: book is a story on three levels. The first level 203 00:17:04,640 --> 00:17:07,960 Speaker 2: and what the kind of covers meant to invoke is 204 00:17:08,000 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: that mass shootings happened so quickly that we don't have 205 00:17:10,840 --> 00:17:14,400 Speaker 2: time to actually figure out what really happened, what really 206 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:17,760 Speaker 2: happened in a mass shooting. And so the main narrative 207 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:21,080 Speaker 2: of the book tells the story of the Nashville waffle 208 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,919 Speaker 2: House mass shooting, a twenty eighteen mass shooting where a 209 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 2: naked white gunman ran into a waffle house that was 210 00:17:30,040 --> 00:17:33,720 Speaker 2: three in the morning full of young adults of color 211 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:36,720 Speaker 2: who were celebrating after the club's closed. And I tell 212 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:41,439 Speaker 2: a really deep dive story of this shooting. And so 213 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 2: I can't give too much away except to say that 214 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 2: in looking at how that shooting happened, I found out 215 00:17:48,840 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 2: a lot of stuff about really how the shooter got 216 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 2: to the crime, and then how society acted after the 217 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,040 Speaker 2: crime happened that was much more complicated than background checks 218 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:06,160 Speaker 2: are red flag laws and knowing me, you probably can 219 00:18:06,160 --> 00:18:10,080 Speaker 2: figure out that the story is about what is symbolized 220 00:18:10,119 --> 00:18:13,720 Speaker 2: by a naked white male shooter. Whose liberties and rights 221 00:18:14,320 --> 00:18:18,239 Speaker 2: is he amplifying? Is he a product of? And that 222 00:18:18,359 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 2: naked white male shooter reflects the system. Right, He's a pathology, 223 00:18:23,280 --> 00:18:26,639 Speaker 2: he's a mental illness, he's a murderer, but he's also 224 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:30,560 Speaker 2: a reflection of the gun white gun rights of the 225 00:18:30,680 --> 00:18:34,879 Speaker 2: naked naked body. That his body is a reflection of 226 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,560 Speaker 2: these bigger sphere. His naked white body is a pathology, 227 00:18:38,560 --> 00:18:40,639 Speaker 2: but it's also a reflection. And so I tell the 228 00:18:40,680 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 2: story of that pathology. So that's that's one part of it. 229 00:18:44,240 --> 00:18:46,720 Speaker 2: This is the first time I've said anything publicly. Yeah, yeah, 230 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: like talking voids are quite long now. But point number 231 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,840 Speaker 2: two is I've been trained. You know, we need background checks, 232 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,720 Speaker 2: we need red flag laws, we need you know, all 233 00:18:57,760 --> 00:19:01,679 Speaker 2: these things that are the mom treads of our side 234 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:04,640 Speaker 2: of the left. And when I really looked into the story, 235 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,400 Speaker 2: it turned out to be much more complicated than that. 236 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: That there's a racial politics of the gun reform policies 237 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:16,240 Speaker 2: that we're advocating for. And on the most basic level, 238 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:20,320 Speaker 2: they wouldn't have stopped this shooting because people saw him 239 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,200 Speaker 2: as a white male. He was seen as a white 240 00:19:24,280 --> 00:19:26,720 Speaker 2: man who was a patriot, a reflection of gun rights, 241 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:30,720 Speaker 2: a savior, even as all these warning signs were coming up. 242 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:34,200 Speaker 2: And so part of the argument is that we need 243 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:39,680 Speaker 2: a strategy for whiteness, honestly, or we're not going to 244 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: be anywhere even if everybody in the country has to 245 00:19:41,800 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 2: do background checks. But the other thing is there are 246 00:19:44,480 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 2: some aspects, some racial aspects of the gun control policies 247 00:19:48,880 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 2: that we advocate. For background checks. You're entered into a 248 00:19:55,080 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 2: federal database when you buy a gun. And even though 249 00:19:58,680 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 2: we want that for everybody, the kind of imagined person 250 00:20:04,200 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 2: who gets that is like the white conservative guy who's 251 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: buying a gun. But it turns out in reality, if 252 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,199 Speaker 2: people ping on a background check, who do you think 253 00:20:13,280 --> 00:20:16,119 Speaker 2: is going to ping the most people who have the 254 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:22,200 Speaker 2: most encounters with the good law enforcement? Red flag laws? Well, 255 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:24,480 Speaker 2: that sounds great on paper, let's look at the taking 256 00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 2: time bomb. It's a policy we're putting in place based 257 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,280 Speaker 2: on mass shootings. But if you have a mass shooting, 258 00:20:30,640 --> 00:20:32,800 Speaker 2: and then I mean, if you have a red flag law, 259 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 2: that literally means calling the cops to come into your 260 00:20:36,160 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 2: home to do a welfare check. So who do you 261 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:41,439 Speaker 2: think is going to get Who's going to get the 262 00:20:41,440 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 2: brunt of that system? And so there's a whole racial 263 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 2: politics to the liberal side of this that I think, 264 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:50,080 Speaker 2: as I argue in the book, drives more people of 265 00:20:50,119 --> 00:20:53,400 Speaker 2: color to be gun owners and to mistrust this system. 266 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,199 Speaker 2: And so it's a kind of complicated mess. But what 267 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 2: I'm saying is, I of course support everything that happens, 268 00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,960 Speaker 2: and I support all the movement that's happening, but let's 269 00:21:04,000 --> 00:21:08,000 Speaker 2: really think about the racial politics of what we're advocating 270 00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:10,680 Speaker 2: for just so we can I mean, what I argue 271 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:12,880 Speaker 2: in the book is we need to create safer communities 272 00:21:14,160 --> 00:21:17,439 Speaker 2: and really think about the role of government and police 273 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:19,680 Speaker 2: and all this and everything we're doing. And so it's 274 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,840 Speaker 2: a complicated story, but one that I hope creates conversation. 275 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:26,000 Speaker 1: But the thing when you're saying, like, we need a 276 00:21:26,040 --> 00:21:29,879 Speaker 1: strategy for whiteness, right, whiteness is what is in control. 277 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,680 Speaker 1: So what we're asking for are for powerful white men, 278 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 1: right largely to police, to come up with a strategy 279 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: on how to deal with themselves. It's the same way 280 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:49,359 Speaker 1: that I feel when there is another terrible shooting at 281 00:21:49,359 --> 00:21:52,639 Speaker 1: the hands of an officer, and then we're waiting for 282 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: the police department to come out with their own report, right, like, 283 00:21:56,359 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: when we know that the reports that they come out 284 00:21:59,080 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: with likely You can take George Floyd for instance, You 285 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 1: can take Breonna Taylor, you can take any of these 286 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 1: headline cases where the police reports did not match what 287 00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 1: came out, right, And so, how do we how do 288 00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:16,439 Speaker 1: you create a strategy for whiteness when whiteness is always 289 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 1: reimagining the systems of oppression, right, Like, how do you 290 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:25,919 Speaker 1: police how do you police the police? Right? How do 291 00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:29,640 Speaker 1: you pull how do you police these institutions that were 292 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: made in order to ensure that certain groups that white 293 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: people were going to benefit and everyone else who was 294 00:22:39,480 --> 00:22:41,840 Speaker 1: not white, who was not straight, who was not Christian 295 00:22:42,400 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 1: was going to be a product of that state. 296 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,720 Speaker 2: Absolutely. I mean many of the points I make in 297 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:50,680 Speaker 2: the book come out of your conversations you and I 298 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 2: have had. And part of it I go back to, 299 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 2: is in part what's happening now That part of the 300 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 2: issue is who do we who do we imagine like 301 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 2: when we say red flag laws, for example, or background checks, 302 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:07,400 Speaker 2: who do we imagine is going to fall under that apparatus, 303 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 2: and if you want to change that apparatus, you really 304 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,800 Speaker 2: have to think see guns like part of the issue 305 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,040 Speaker 2: is we've there are two main critiques some make in 306 00:23:17,040 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 2: the book. One is that we've kind of sawed guns 307 00:23:21,880 --> 00:23:25,400 Speaker 2: off from the body of everything else, just like you're like, 308 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: like your your question is suggesting we could you know, 309 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 2: so we actually need to think about guns in a 310 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:38,199 Speaker 2: much bigger context, right that? And so part of what 311 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 2: I argue is gun politics and this is kind of 312 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,280 Speaker 2: what's happening now. We also need to use these politics 313 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: to have people run for school board and city commissioner 314 00:23:50,200 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 2: and voting and all these kind of things. That we've 315 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,840 Speaker 2: defined guns safety way too narrowly, and we actually need 316 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 2: to think about it in a much bigger political sense. 317 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:02,200 Speaker 2: And then point number two is justus, is public health 318 00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: framing the right framework to get us there? That if 319 00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:08,119 Speaker 2: guns are a much bigger political problem they have to 320 00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:12,280 Speaker 2: do with race and structure. Is the framework of public 321 00:24:12,320 --> 00:24:15,800 Speaker 2: health that is the undergirds all of the gun control movement? 322 00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 2: Is that enough? Or do we actually have to think 323 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,919 Speaker 2: of a much more political framework. And what I argue 324 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 2: is public health is not the right framework. I'm critiquing 325 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,879 Speaker 2: myself in this. Yeah, what I say is that public 326 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 2: health is not the right framework we could we're advocating 327 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,000 Speaker 2: so hard, but everybody in the world, in the whole country, 328 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 2: has a background check, We're still going to have the 329 00:24:37,440 --> 00:24:41,920 Speaker 2: same problems that public health was not designed for what 330 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,000 Speaker 2: we're asking it to do right now. And so I 331 00:24:44,119 --> 00:24:47,479 Speaker 2: argue that the gun safety movement, which is again happening 332 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 2: in some places, it needs to be about politics. We 333 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 2: just should be much more overt about that, not just 334 00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:56,160 Speaker 2: about safety. 335 00:25:00,320 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 1: Is the need that you have seen, right, because even 336 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:09,200 Speaker 1: the movement itself has been gun reform movement gun safety movement? 337 00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:13,440 Speaker 1: Is it that what we recognize is at the end 338 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:16,520 Speaker 1: of the day, it's about who is casting the votes. Right, 339 00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,840 Speaker 1: So is it just then shifting to we need to 340 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:26,680 Speaker 1: run candidates, search for candidates at state, local, and national 341 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: levels that are actually going to get the job done. 342 00:25:29,880 --> 00:25:33,320 Speaker 1: That it isn't about just doing the background checks and 343 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:35,240 Speaker 1: saying that we need reform and saying that this is 344 00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:38,239 Speaker 1: a public health crisis. That the CDC just came out 345 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:40,840 Speaker 1: and said the number one killer of children of young 346 00:25:40,920 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: children is guns. None of that is moving the needle. 347 00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: So is it just then about the candidate. 348 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 2: It's not just about the candidate. It's actually about the 349 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: platform of gun safety. I mean, again, I want there 350 00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,119 Speaker 2: to be gun safety, but we've What I show in 351 00:25:56,160 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 2: the book is that we've applied the same playbook to 352 00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: guns that we did before to cigarettes and seat belts 353 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:06,840 Speaker 2: and cars and drunk drivers. And what I argue in 354 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:08,560 Speaker 2: the book is that if you really kind of scratch 355 00:26:08,600 --> 00:26:11,400 Speaker 2: the surface, guns are such a different issue than those 356 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:15,240 Speaker 2: other public health issues like in cigarettes and seat belts 357 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 2: and all that you could bring. You could bring to 358 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:23,440 Speaker 2: bear the moral claims of victims, and you could really 359 00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 2: have corporations pay a price for what was happening. And 360 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:29,840 Speaker 2: I feel like guns are a different issue. Guns are 361 00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 2: a problem of race in America. Guns are a problem 362 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,800 Speaker 2: of governance, They're a problem of geography, and just that 363 00:26:36,320 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 2: playbook is not going to work. So I'm arguing for 364 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:43,160 Speaker 2: a much more political approach to the gun safety movement 365 00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 2: that's much more overt about its politics. So it's not 366 00:26:45,600 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 2: just running the right candidates, it's also changing what they're 367 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:51,720 Speaker 2: advocating for. Because I just think that if we keep 368 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 2: advocating for background checks and stuff, we're just going to 369 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 2: keep reproducing the same problem. And so I hear myself 370 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:00,959 Speaker 2: being a little bit because I don't want to give 371 00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: too much away. 372 00:27:02,000 --> 00:27:04,080 Speaker 1: No, yes, and I mean I love this. I love 373 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 1: that WO gets the sneak peek into your book that's 374 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:08,879 Speaker 1: not coming out until January. 375 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:11,200 Speaker 2: But I will say that it's going to be a 376 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:13,520 Speaker 2: risk because I'm taking on my own side in a 377 00:27:13,560 --> 00:27:17,359 Speaker 2: way to say we're actually not ambitious enough and what 378 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: we're advocating for. Like the other side, the NRA side, 379 00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:26,760 Speaker 2: they saw guns as a mode to power, and I 380 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,639 Speaker 2: feel like we're we should we should see this issue 381 00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 2: and think about it in terms of power also because 382 00:27:34,119 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: that's what we're up against. That it's not just a 383 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 2: health issue. And again some people are doing this, but 384 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,439 Speaker 2: I just think we're behind the eight ball. We're because 385 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 2: for forty years we've defined this as a public health issue, 386 00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 2: and public health does not have an answer to what 387 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 2: we face with guns, which is of course mortality. But 388 00:27:52,600 --> 00:27:55,639 Speaker 2: it's also a problem of governance. And so I argue 389 00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:58,679 Speaker 2: that we have to be much more political in what 390 00:27:58,760 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: we're doing, and and and so that you know, that 391 00:28:03,080 --> 00:28:05,760 Speaker 2: might change our coalition, it might change a broader thing. 392 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:08,080 Speaker 2: But I just think if it's just about like I 393 00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:11,240 Speaker 2: don't see I see a minor victory of background checks 394 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,679 Speaker 2: everywhere and closing loopholes, but it's just going to keep 395 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:16,840 Speaker 2: bouncing back and forth if we don't kind of think 396 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 2: about this more more structurally, which is one of the 397 00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,840 Speaker 2: bigger drivers of gun violence and things like that. 398 00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,720 Speaker 1: Do you think that this is like a stop, pivot 399 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:30,680 Speaker 1: and reflect moment. Do you think that we're going to 400 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:34,160 Speaker 1: be able to shift gears right? Like as as this 401 00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,239 Speaker 1: movement has been doing kind of the same things with 402 00:28:38,400 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 1: minor you know, minor iterations throughout the years, like, is 403 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 1: this going to be something that the movement is nimble 404 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 1: enough to shift into? 405 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 2: No, we have fifty years of history. But I will 406 00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:53,280 Speaker 2: say that again, there's like there's a there are movements 407 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,840 Speaker 2: now to like like David is you know, a controversial figure, 408 00:28:58,160 --> 00:28:59,960 Speaker 2: but he's starting a movement. 409 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:05,080 Speaker 3: For example, David Hobb, I just want to to basically 410 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:08,800 Speaker 3: say we need to run people for local elections in 411 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:11,320 Speaker 3: red states, which is exactly what I'm talking about. 412 00:29:11,400 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 2: That it wasn't just about we're voting on things. So 413 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 2: I do think that this is happening. I do think 414 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,680 Speaker 2: that from the ground up I just I talk to 415 00:29:19,720 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 2: a lot of activists and they're frustrated that when they 416 00:29:23,080 --> 00:29:26,240 Speaker 2: really find out what red flags really do, they're like, wait, 417 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:28,880 Speaker 2: that's it, that's what we're asking for. So again, people, 418 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 2: it's incredible what's happening, and people are working so hard, 419 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 2: And it's not a critique of them. I'm advocating for 420 00:29:36,080 --> 00:29:38,120 Speaker 2: slow change. I realized there's a lot at stake in 421 00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400 Speaker 2: the twenty twenty four election. I'm not telling people don't 422 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,000 Speaker 2: mobilize and don't support and gun safety is a huge 423 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 2: mobilizing issue for the Democrats. But I'm also saying that 424 00:29:47,440 --> 00:29:51,719 Speaker 2: if you take a long view, what we're building, I 425 00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:54,760 Speaker 2: think is in need of some critical engagement because will 426 00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:58,320 Speaker 2: it meet the aims of what we're hoping for, or 427 00:29:58,360 --> 00:30:02,120 Speaker 2: can we see gun safety politics as a much broader 428 00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:07,560 Speaker 2: issue that can actually help us recreate communities, rebuild communities, 429 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:10,400 Speaker 2: create safer communities. And so that's kind of I'm arguing 430 00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 2: for a broader, longer community approach that isn't just based 431 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 2: in the three things we always advocate for. 432 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's and I think it's important right like for 433 00:30:23,680 --> 00:30:28,840 Speaker 1: decades now, since Columbine, right, and even before Columbine we're 434 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:34,920 Speaker 1: talking about, you know, shootings in households, we're talking about suicides. 435 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:38,479 Speaker 1: Then from Columbine on in the nineties, we're talking about 436 00:30:38,480 --> 00:30:43,080 Speaker 1: school shootings and math shootings and shootings everywhere, and they've 437 00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:47,440 Speaker 1: only increased, right, Like, nothing has decreased over this time, 438 00:30:47,480 --> 00:30:50,680 Speaker 1: and so it is important for there to be an 439 00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: evaluation on are our methods working, right, Like, protests alone, 440 00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: we know doesn't work. Trying to shame politicians doesn't work, 441 00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:07,960 Speaker 1: you know, And so it's like making it a public 442 00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 1: health issue in crisis hasn't worked. 443 00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 2: And there are plenty of people. I mean, maybe one 444 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 2: of the more controversial parts of this is going to 445 00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:19,920 Speaker 2: be that there are people, including gun owners, who are 446 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 2: talking about safety, and I ask, have we taken those 447 00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: safety concerned seriously enough? Like what does it mean to 448 00:31:26,680 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 2: create a safe society? And it's a complicated question. It's 449 00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: a complicated question, and so I think, you know, I'm 450 00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: hoping to stir debate, but also if Biden is not elected, 451 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,840 Speaker 2: we're all screwed. And so I don't want to I 452 00:31:41,880 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 2: don't want to upend any cart when we're mobilizing for 453 00:31:44,480 --> 00:31:46,600 Speaker 2: an election. But I do think it's important to take 454 00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: a critical engagement with the framework around the gun safety movement. 455 00:31:51,520 --> 00:31:54,560 Speaker 2: And again, if this sounds really vague, I'll just tell 456 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 2: people that this narrative comes out in the close reading 457 00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 2: of the story, and so the story itself is just 458 00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 2: breathtaking and shocking, and you realize when you see what 459 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,400 Speaker 2: happened in the story, Like at the end of the story, 460 00:32:08,400 --> 00:32:12,440 Speaker 2: I want people to say, are red flags really red 461 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:16,160 Speaker 2: flag laws enough for what we're facing, which is a 462 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:20,760 Speaker 2: problem of a problem of governance, it's a problem of whiteness. 463 00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:22,520 Speaker 2: It's all these bigger problems, and I want to urge 464 00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 2: people to actually think about advocating for more than what 465 00:32:27,920 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: we've been kind of boxed into. 466 00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:32,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that we have all been boxed into. 467 00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 1: You know, don't let perfect be the enemy of the good, 468 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,360 Speaker 1: but just take at least, you know, incremental progress is 469 00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:43,360 Speaker 1: better than no progress. But I think that what you 470 00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:46,480 Speaker 1: are offering in your new book and this new theory 471 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: of change is the ship that is necessary to get 472 00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:53,920 Speaker 1: us to think like, is this really enough? Because if 473 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:55,840 Speaker 1: it does come down to it, is it going to 474 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:59,600 Speaker 1: really stop any of the tragedies that we have seen? 475 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,840 Speaker 2: And I, in a way I openly undermine my own expertise, 476 00:33:03,880 --> 00:33:06,920 Speaker 2: which was really hard to do. But I said, like, look, 477 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: I'm a great scholar of this. There are other amazing 478 00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,680 Speaker 2: scholars of this. I know how to study it, but 479 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:13,600 Speaker 2: I have no idea how to win an election and 480 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:15,479 Speaker 2: to get the kind of change we need. We actually 481 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:20,240 Speaker 2: need to win elections and stuff. So you know, so 482 00:33:20,400 --> 00:33:22,680 Speaker 2: much of this research, which is incredible, is coming out 483 00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 2: of academia, but we need to broaden our broaden our coalitions. 484 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 2: And why is it that we haven't done so to 485 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:34,000 Speaker 2: this point? And I show how there are pluses and 486 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,360 Speaker 2: minuses to having an academics running a lot of this, 487 00:33:38,400 --> 00:33:43,240 Speaker 2: which is academics are great, but also in academic frameworks, 488 00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 2: for example, we are rewarded for getting grants, which means 489 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:49,719 Speaker 2: we collaborate with people and with journals that are in 490 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 2: our field. It's not about going out to the south 491 00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:56,160 Speaker 2: and figuring out like what's going to win an election 492 00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:58,560 Speaker 2: and stuff like that. And so I'm just trying to tell, 493 00:33:58,600 --> 00:34:00,840 Speaker 2: like how I'm trying to have people under stand, like 494 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:03,080 Speaker 2: Dying of Whiteness turned out to be a forward looking book. 495 00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 2: This is a backward looking book. How did we get 496 00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:09,160 Speaker 2: into this position? And let's just think hard about where 497 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:11,799 Speaker 2: we're going to think about the kind of coalitions we 498 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:16,359 Speaker 2: can build, because it's not just that we're losing, it's 499 00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,799 Speaker 2: also that like many more people are buying guns right now, 500 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:22,200 Speaker 2: like they're you know, black women are the biggest growing 501 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,880 Speaker 2: population of gun owners, and Latino Americans are buying a 502 00:34:27,920 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: lot of other people are buying guns because of loose 503 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,319 Speaker 2: gun laws, and so we really have to think how 504 00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,879 Speaker 2: can we build different kinds of coalitions? 505 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,800 Speaker 1: Got it well, we will leave it there today, Doctor 506 00:34:38,880 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: Jonathan Metzel, our friend, our in house doctor, thank you 507 00:34:41,960 --> 00:34:44,840 Speaker 1: so much, and we are very excited about your upcoming 508 00:34:45,000 --> 00:34:46,040 Speaker 1: book for. 509 00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 2: See Everybody and Dying of Whiteness two point oz was 510 00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:51,040 Speaker 2: also coming in February, so lot's coming from me. 511 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:59,440 Speaker 1: So yay. That is it for me today, Dear friends, 512 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: on woke a app as always power to the people 513 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: and to all the people. Power, get woke and stay 514 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: woke as fun m