WEBVTT - The Girlfriends S5/Bonus Ep 1: Get Back Down Here Off Your High Horse 0:00:02.360 --> 0:00:02.719 Novel. 0:00:10.039 --> 0:00:13.640 I started reporting on the case when Derek had been 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.200 arrested but not yet sentenced. 0:00:17.760 --> 0:00:21.119 This is Rachel Monroe in twenty seventeen. She was a 0:00:21.160 --> 0:00:24.680 reporter for The Atlantic, and she set about covering a 0:00:24.800 --> 0:00:27.400 huge story unfolding in Texas. 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:30.840 They live in Texas, and so everything's bigger in Texas, 0:00:30.880 --> 0:00:32.080 including the crimes. 0:00:32.560 --> 0:00:35.920 The arrest of Derek Wodrett for scamming a woman in 0:00:36.000 --> 0:00:36.599 the colony. 0:00:37.720 --> 0:00:40.000 This was kind of the first time that there was 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.440 like a hope that this is all going to be connected. 0:00:42.600 --> 0:00:44.560 You know, people are going to understand that this isn't 0:00:44.640 --> 0:00:47.559 just a bunch of individual crimes, but like a larger pattern. 0:00:48.159 --> 0:00:51.840 On the one hand, I think they wanted to share 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:54.480 about the case and like make it really clear that 0:00:54.600 --> 0:00:57.560 this was a pattern of behavior. But also at the 0:00:57.600 --> 0:01:00.720 same time they were cautious because he cut so many 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:03.440 times before and it hadn't really seemed to matter. 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:08.080 But the process of writing the piece wasn't exactly smooth. 0:01:09.959 --> 0:01:12.360 A lot of women had spoken to the media before 0:01:12.760 --> 0:01:16.560 in twenty fourteen. In twenty sixteen, before any arrest was 0:01:16.600 --> 0:01:22.039 on the horizon, meticulously reported pieces alleging a long history 0:01:22.160 --> 0:01:22.720 of fraud. 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:25.399 I do want to give a ton of credit to 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.600 Laura la Manchek, who's the reporter in Minneapolis who really 0:01:28.640 --> 0:01:32.240 broke this story and did a lot of the legwork. 0:01:32.640 --> 0:01:34.960 So some of these women had told their stories publicly 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.000 with some level of anonymity through her. But I had 0:01:39.040 --> 0:01:42.160 a hard time tracking these people down, and so I 0:01:42.160 --> 0:01:44.920 flew to Minneapolis, like not knowing whether anybody would speak 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:45.440 with me or not. 0:01:46.240 --> 0:01:49.360 And even when she did, they were also really spread 0:01:49.360 --> 0:01:54.200 out all over the country Texas, Hawaii, Arizona, and a 0:01:54.200 --> 0:01:58.400 whole bunch in Minnesota. And even once Rachel tracked them down, 0:01:58.880 --> 0:02:03.320 she encountered a growing hesitancy to speak to the media. 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.119 They were reluctant, I think for understandable reasons. 0:02:09.680 --> 0:02:14.160 Probably the key reason among those understandable reasons was. 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:18.560 This, I can't describe the bashing that the public gave us. 0:02:19.240 --> 0:02:21.400 People are very powerful behind their computers. 0:02:22.000 --> 0:02:27.919 Even the most thoughtfully, carefully sensitively reported stories can't guarantee 0:02:28.000 --> 0:02:30.040 how an audience will react. 0:02:30.240 --> 0:02:32.680 You know, everybody said we were stupid to give him money. 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:34.600 How can we be so stupid? 0:02:34.760 --> 0:02:37.720 If you've been listening closely, you'll know as well as 0:02:37.760 --> 0:02:40.840 I do that this is a stupid question for anyone 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.720 to be asking any of these women, let alone dorry. 0:02:45.400 --> 0:02:48.240 None of us gave him money. He went through files, 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:51.799 he went through purses, he went through wallets, he went 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.480 through checkbooks. He waited till you were out of the room. 0:02:54.840 --> 0:02:56.920 People just absolutely crucified us. 0:02:57.600 --> 0:03:01.519 It didn't really matter how exactly actually got his hands 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:05.000 on the money. Every time this case got reported over 0:03:05.040 --> 0:03:07.839 the years, the women at the center of it came 0:03:07.919 --> 0:03:11.120 face to face with a pervasive idea that they were, 0:03:11.560 --> 0:03:14.880 in some way or another, partly to blame for what 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:18.600 happened to them, that they were at best vulnerable, naive, 0:03:19.320 --> 0:03:20.560 and at worst. 0:03:20.760 --> 0:03:23.880 Oh, how stupid are these women? They're just desperate, y'all 0:03:23.880 --> 0:03:26.320 are an embarrassment. Y'all are pitiful. 0:03:26.919 --> 0:03:30.560 Rachel's article came out in twenty eighteen, four months before 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:35.000 that sentencing here in Showdown. It's good, really thoughtful and 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:40.480 sensitively reported, but her peace didn't escape the inevitable backlash either. 0:03:41.200 --> 0:03:44.280 I think there's a resistance to admitting. Part of the 0:03:44.280 --> 0:03:47.680 pleasure of these scammer stories is like, as the reader, 0:03:47.760 --> 0:03:50.560 you're kind of occupying this all knowing position, like it's 0:03:50.600 --> 0:03:53.080 already happened. You know that it's a scam, and that 0:03:53.400 --> 0:03:57.520 kind of gives you a false sense of security. I 0:03:57.560 --> 0:04:00.680 think that like, oh, I'm smarter than that. Yes, I wouldn't. 0:04:00.760 --> 0:04:01.800 I wouldn't fall for it. 0:04:02.600 --> 0:04:06.360 I'm fascinated by this kind of response. Deep down, if 0:04:06.360 --> 0:04:10.480 we're honest, maybe we all sometimes think it couldn't happen 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:10.720 to me. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.000 You can kind of intellectually know like, oh, this could 0:04:14.000 --> 0:04:20.560 happen to anybody. But truly, these techniques are time tested 0:04:20.600 --> 0:04:23.000 and they really work, which means they could work on 0:04:23.120 --> 0:04:23.960 any of us. 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.040 It's been a few years now since Rachel Monroe's article 0:04:30.120 --> 0:04:33.000 came out, so she's had some time to reflect on 0:04:33.080 --> 0:04:35.479 it all. I asked her to sit down with me, 0:04:35.880 --> 0:04:38.840 give me the benefit of her hindsight, explain how it 0:04:38.960 --> 0:04:40.160 all unfolded for her. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.240 He's like in his jail uniform as a fraudster, and 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:47.520 he's telling me this stuff, and I'm like, oh, amazing, Yes. 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:51.200 And tell me about her face to face with Derek. 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:57.200 If anybody should know better, If anybody should know better, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:05:00.200 it was me. You learn a lot by being hom old. 0:05:00.240 --> 0:05:03.360 I guess. 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:12.320 I'm Annasonfield and from the teams at Novel and iHeart Podcasts, 0:05:12.760 --> 0:05:40.920 you're listening to the girlfriends trust me both bonus episode one, 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:43.159 Get back down here, Off your high horse. 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.000 Maybe every story is a manipulation, but in true crime 0:05:48.120 --> 0:05:54.560 the stakes are pretty high. What drew you to the 0:05:54.640 --> 0:05:57.919 Derek Aldred case a person who is close to me 0:05:58.040 --> 0:06:02.600 had fallen for a romance. Just learning about it through 0:06:03.240 --> 0:06:07.680 her it kind of caught me off guard. Having it 0:06:07.960 --> 0:06:12.120 hit close to home made it feel much more visceral. 0:06:12.240 --> 0:06:15.520 And then also just like a really incredible woman, like 0:06:15.960 --> 0:06:20.080 super savvy, super attractive, and this scam lasted for like 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:23.919 months and months and months, was incredibly elaborate. You know, 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.520 the guy like knew her kid's names. You know, they 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:30.640 would have these like long, long, long phone conversations, and 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:33.480 the fact that so much work was being put into, 0:06:33.800 --> 0:06:36.599 you know, scamming this like one individual person, that it 0:06:36.640 --> 0:06:40.919 was happening at this really intimate level, and then also 0:06:41.000 --> 0:06:45.840 just seeing how it impacted her life and her emotions. 0:06:46.200 --> 0:06:48.200 You know, it's one thing to lose a bunch of money, 0:06:48.440 --> 0:06:50.640 and it's another thing to lose trust in yourself and 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:53.159 lose trust in the world. And you know, just seeing 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:57.440 the emotional ramifications made me think that this form of 0:06:57.480 --> 0:06:59.760 it is new. It certainly seems to be growing, and 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:05.039 it's like having an impact beyond just you know, financial loss. 0:07:05.560 --> 0:07:09.279 I remember looking at the FBI statistics and seeing that 0:07:09.320 --> 0:07:12.760 this was, like, you know, among the top ways that 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.640 people were losing money online was to these romance scams. 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:17.960 If you think back like seven or eight years ago, 0:07:18.480 --> 0:07:22.040 this kind of romance scam was really not on the 0:07:22.160 --> 0:07:25.720 radar of a lot of people. I think that now 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.960 there's been a lot of Netflix documentaries and podcasts like 0:07:29.000 --> 0:07:32.520 this one, and it's much more well known. At the time, 0:07:33.440 --> 0:07:38.440 I think it was something that was certainly happening a lot, 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:41.600 but not necessarily getting the attention that it deserved. And 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:43.880 that just kind of blew my mind that it was 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:48.240 the scale of it combined with how much it wasn't 0:07:48.280 --> 0:07:50.840 being talked about. So that was also something that was 0:07:50.840 --> 0:07:54.200 interesting to me, like why why aren't we talking about this? 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:57.880 The kind of scamming Derek was doing seemed like such 0:07:57.880 --> 0:08:00.680 an extreme example of the kind of thing Rachel was 0:08:00.720 --> 0:08:01.400 reading about. 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.800 In order to scam these women, he was paying so 0:08:05.440 --> 0:08:08.280 much attention to them and like really kind of watching 0:08:08.360 --> 0:08:10.520 them and listening to them and learning about them to 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:12.760 know like what would work on them and what they 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:15.640 wanted and what would appeal to them. And it's pretty 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.960 close to somebody like listening to you and figuring out 0:08:19.000 --> 0:08:21.680 what you like and trying to please you because they 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:23.880 like you. I was single at the time, and I 0:08:23.920 --> 0:08:25.680 was dating, and so I think there was also like 0:08:25.680 --> 0:08:30.720 a personal element for me where thinking about those early 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.400 stages of getting to know someone and that feeling of 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.679 like really falling for someone, which happens like way before 0:08:38.720 --> 0:08:41.760 you actually know them. The feelings kind of come before 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:44.880 the facts in any case, like even if it turns 0:08:44.880 --> 0:08:46.640 out to be like a really good situation. And so 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:51.440 I think thinking about how the romance scammer performs so 0:08:51.520 --> 0:08:54.960 many acts that like a good boyfriend also does, and 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.480 it's just you know, like how do you know which 0:08:57.520 --> 0:09:00.440 one is which? It's really kind of scary. 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:02.200 Yeah, of course, like you fall in love with the 0:09:02.240 --> 0:09:05.400 fantasy of someone when you were like dating before you 0:09:05.440 --> 0:09:08.280 actually know who they are completely God help the people 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:10.960 that you were dating while you were reporting on this story, 0:09:11.520 --> 0:09:12.920 were you like quizzing. 0:09:12.520 --> 0:09:14.760 Them, show me your fan, who are you talking to? 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:18.880 Rachel would go on to speak to a lot of 0:09:18.920 --> 0:09:21.360 women who were scanned by Derek for her peace in 0:09:21.400 --> 0:09:25.400 the Atlantic, but building trust after all they'd been through 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:26.800 was a challenge. 0:09:27.280 --> 0:09:31.120 They had been deeply violated by this experience. Somebody that 0:09:31.160 --> 0:09:33.720 they trusted had lied to them, So there was like 0:09:33.760 --> 0:09:35.360 that level, and then I think a lot of them 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:40.560 felt really traumatized by how they had been depicted, just 0:09:40.679 --> 0:09:44.480 this idea that they were dupes, that they were suckers, 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.320 that they were pathetic. So I think that there was 0:09:47.360 --> 0:09:52.800 some hesitancy to trust, and understandably so. 0:09:51.880 --> 0:09:54.720 One of the central women in Rachel's article is Linda. 0:09:55.080 --> 0:09:57.520 You've not heard from her directly in this series, but 0:09:57.640 --> 0:10:00.000 some of the details of her story will sound familiar 0:10:00.240 --> 0:10:03.400 to you. Linda was in a relationship with Derek Wodread 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.480 back in twenty sixteen when he was pretending to be 0:10:06.559 --> 0:10:10.280 Richie Peterson, the military vet. Linda went public with her 0:10:10.320 --> 0:10:11.600 story that same year. 0:10:12.200 --> 0:10:13.960 We met at a restaurant and then she and then 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.240 afterwards she was like, let's go get a pedicure, and 0:10:16.320 --> 0:10:20.160 so I just remember sitting in the salon, you know, 0:10:20.280 --> 0:10:24.120 side by side, getting her toes painted and buffed, and 0:10:24.520 --> 0:10:26.840 that's when she really kind of started to open up. 0:10:27.000 --> 0:10:30.160 I've never done that on a reporting trip before, but 0:10:30.400 --> 0:10:33.520 It helped me understand her as a person, and there 0:10:33.559 --> 0:10:38.400 was some feeling of like female solidarity I think in 0:10:38.960 --> 0:10:42.440 you know, just sitting side by side talking about her 0:10:42.520 --> 0:10:46.840 dating life before, during, and after this guy. That helped 0:10:46.840 --> 0:10:50.120 me connect with her emotionally, and it broke down some 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.160 of the barriers that can sometimes be there as a journalist, 0:10:53.160 --> 0:10:55.840 and sometimes we need those barriers. But it was a 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:00.640 way to really feel like, how this head hurt her. 0:11:00.960 --> 0:11:04.400 I love that It's such a nice opportunity when people 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:06.880 are up for just kind of doing a thing with you. 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:09.720 The people working at this land must just have the 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:13.280 best gossip of anybody. I do remember, you know, after 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:17.680 kind of having this bonding moment at the salon with Linda, 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.439 she suggested that we go over to Missy's house, which 0:11:20.480 --> 0:11:22.400 I was like, that's yes, that's amazing, let's go. 0:11:23.200 --> 0:11:26.439 Missy was another woman that so called Richie Peterson had 0:11:26.440 --> 0:11:29.360 been dating at the same time. She had discovered the 0:11:29.400 --> 0:11:33.240 truth about Richie that he was actually Derek after finding 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:36.120 his real ID card in his wallet while he showered. 0:11:36.640 --> 0:11:40.119 She also found Linda's credit card, looked her up on Facebook, 0:11:40.280 --> 0:11:42.800 and reached out to her, warning her of the truth. 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:47.600 Like Dorian Tracy over in Texas. Linda and Missy had 0:11:47.600 --> 0:11:49.280 struck up a friendship. 0:11:49.280 --> 0:11:52.800 And seeing the two of them together, Linda, she's a 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:58.120 real kind of strong, blonde Texas woman, and Missy was 0:11:58.160 --> 0:12:01.360 really different, you know, the small and dark haired and 0:12:02.080 --> 0:12:03.960 just has kind of a single mom, had like a 0:12:03.960 --> 0:12:07.560 different energy about her and looking at them, at the 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:09.680 two of them, and just you would think like, there's 0:12:09.720 --> 0:12:11.600 no way they would have anything in common. They never 0:12:11.640 --> 0:12:17.800 would have met otherwise, but they connected through sharing this 0:12:17.920 --> 0:12:20.040 experience that most people haven't had. 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.240 But just show how broad Derek's scope was when it 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.760 comes to the sort of women that he was pursuing. 0:12:27.440 --> 0:12:31.120 Yeah, if anything, the pattern was that these were all 0:12:31.160 --> 0:12:34.439 like kind of savvy professional women, and it makes sense 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:36.600 that if you're trying to scam people out of money, 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:39.680 you want to have find people who are like doing well. 0:12:39.800 --> 0:12:43.680 That really was kind of the only consistent thing about 0:12:43.720 --> 0:12:46.319 them was that they were women who, in a lot 0:12:46.360 --> 0:12:49.600 of ways we were thriving in their lives and you know, 0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:53.640 just looking for a man to kind of add to 0:12:53.720 --> 0:12:57.600 the picture. And he was good at presenting himself as 0:12:57.600 --> 0:12:58.880 a catch up. 0:12:58.960 --> 0:13:01.880 Until that point, Rachel had been focusing a lot on 0:13:01.920 --> 0:13:04.080 the harm and pain and the story. 0:13:04.080 --> 0:13:06.760 And just seeing the two of them sprawled on the 0:13:06.800 --> 0:13:10.120 couch with Missy's daughter, like watching TV, you know, eating snacks, 0:13:10.160 --> 0:13:12.440 like gabbing. I was like, oh, yeah, this is a 0:13:12.480 --> 0:13:14.560 really important part of the story too, like how these 0:13:14.559 --> 0:13:18.000 women were able to take care of each other when 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:20.719 they were being in some cases failed by law enforcement 0:13:20.880 --> 0:13:24.520 and dismissed by other people in their lives. 0:13:24.760 --> 0:13:28.040 What was the public reaction to your piece, specifically when 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:29.040 it came out. 0:13:29.400 --> 0:13:32.240 I remember getting so many emails from people being like, 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:35.200 I have a story like this. This happened to me, 0:13:35.480 --> 0:13:38.200 This happened to my aunt, this happened to my mother, 0:13:38.400 --> 0:13:40.720 and you know, will you follow up? Will you write 0:13:40.760 --> 0:13:42.320 about this man? Will you write about this man? And 0:13:42.360 --> 0:13:44.160 I sort of it was sort of heartbreaking to have 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.200 to write back to all of these people and be like, look, 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:49.240 I'm sorry, I've kind of done my romance scammer story 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:52.040 and now I'm not covering that field anymore. And some 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.280 of those stories I like passed on to other reporters 0:13:55.280 --> 0:13:57.880 that I that I knew that. I was just so 0:13:58.360 --> 0:14:02.440 struck by how much any stories like this must be 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:04.760 out there and that aren't being told. 0:14:05.440 --> 0:14:08.160 I've read Rachel's piece. It's really good. You should go 0:14:08.200 --> 0:14:11.559 find it. It's called The Perfect Man Who Wasn't. It's 0:14:11.600 --> 0:14:15.200 really sensitively and thoughtfully written, and I get a real 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:19.040 sense of these women from reading it. But alas the 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:22.400 Internet is the Internet. 0:14:24.240 --> 0:14:26.600 There was like the original harm of being lied to 0:14:26.640 --> 0:14:29.040 install infirm by this man, and then this kind of 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:31.400 secondary harm of like the victim blameing. 0:14:32.080 --> 0:14:34.080 That's coming up after the break. 0:14:50.000 --> 0:14:53.120 So your piece came out in twenty eighteen. 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:58.640 And you spoke about how the women in subsequent stuff 0:14:58.640 --> 0:15:01.600 that's come out about their story, we have experienced kind 0:15:01.600 --> 0:15:04.960 of lots of victim blaming from the public who are 0:15:05.240 --> 0:15:05.800 reading it. 0:15:06.400 --> 0:15:08.680 Do you think there's been a shift in. 0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:12.560 The way the public react to those kind of stories now? 0:15:13.280 --> 0:15:15.680 I like to think so. As a person who's like 0:15:15.680 --> 0:15:19.800 spent a lot of time reading consuming true crime and 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:22.360 looking at the way people talk about true crime on 0:15:22.360 --> 0:15:25.640 the Internet, it's like really shocking to me, how no 0:15:25.800 --> 0:15:30.760 matter what, if you believe that it was the victim's fault, 0:15:31.040 --> 0:15:33.320 then that's a way of thinking, like, oh, this would 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:35.760 never happen to me because I wouldn't make the mistakes 0:15:35.800 --> 0:15:38.880 that they did. So I you know, I'm not that 0:15:39.680 --> 0:15:43.560 hopeful about I mean, I do think that on some 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:46.560 level the discussion of romance scams, like as people have 0:15:46.640 --> 0:15:48.840 become more aware of them and as more people's lives 0:15:48.840 --> 0:15:53.840 have been touched by them, there is a better understanding 0:15:53.920 --> 0:15:57.520 of how pervasive this is and how it could really 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.320 happen to anyone. But you know, victim blaming in general 0:16:00.360 --> 0:16:04.920 and specifically when it's a situation that involves women and relationships, 0:16:05.720 --> 0:16:08.600 those bad ord narratives still persist. And that's why it's 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.320 important to do podcasts like this, is to remind. 0:16:10.920 --> 0:16:14.040 People over and over again, you know, I mean, that's 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:15.840 what I was gonna ask, because of course, like we, 0:16:16.600 --> 0:16:20.920 as the people putting these stories out, are responsible for 0:16:21.560 --> 0:16:24.360 the information that we give, and there's a lot that 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:27.080 we can do to paint a picture of a person 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:29.720 that the audience is going to run with. I mean, 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:34.000 I absolutely have experience of putting shows out and telling 0:16:34.040 --> 0:16:37.800 stories where I think I've been really kind of ethical 0:16:37.920 --> 0:16:39.920 and I feel like pleased with the way that I've 0:16:39.960 --> 0:16:43.160 portrayed someone, and I've really thought it through and tried 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:47.000 not to add to these awful stereotypes, and then still 0:16:47.040 --> 0:16:49.520 obviously people are gonna say what they say on the 0:16:49.560 --> 0:16:51.160 internet and you can't escape that. 0:16:51.840 --> 0:16:57.200 I think it's also like letting survivors be fully human, 0:16:57.360 --> 0:17:00.320 not making what happened to them the only thing in 0:17:00.360 --> 0:17:03.040 their life, you know, like letting them be in the 0:17:03.080 --> 0:17:06.760 stories that we're telling full complex people, even flawed people. 0:17:06.920 --> 0:17:10.600 You know. I think that sometimes one potential risk of 0:17:10.680 --> 0:17:14.159 centering the victims or the survivors is there can be 0:17:14.280 --> 0:17:18.240 an incentive or like a feeling that we need to 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:22.960 make the survivors into heroes or angels or as like 0:17:23.480 --> 0:17:27.080 a way to head off those internet commenters. But it's like, 0:17:27.560 --> 0:17:29.720 in a way, I think that does harm to the 0:17:29.720 --> 0:17:33.640 cause of you know, telling full complete stories about full 0:17:33.680 --> 0:17:38.720 complete people, Like we all make mistakes, victims and survivors 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:42.320 should be allowed to like express their full humanity in 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:43.120 the story. 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:47.159 Yeah, because it's really tempting, I think, especially in romance 0:17:47.200 --> 0:17:51.080 scam stories. And I mean it's also sometimes inescapable because 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.000 it is just true. But it's really tempting to talk 0:17:54.000 --> 0:17:56.960 about how small everybody is because you want to be like, no, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.360 they're so small, like therefore it could happen to all 0:17:59.400 --> 0:18:02.120 of us. But then also it's like it would also 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:05.320 be a terrible thing if they were right, like objectively, 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:06.480 not that smart. 0:18:06.760 --> 0:18:09.520 Right exactly exactly. It's like, it's not terrible that it 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.399 happened to a smart person, it's terrible that it happened 0:18:11.400 --> 0:18:15.159 to anybody. Stories that kind of portray victims as like, 0:18:16.200 --> 0:18:20.399 you know, pure almost like non human angels does do 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:24.840 harm for like other survivors, other victims, because you know, 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:26.520 you look at a story like that and you're like, wow, 0:18:26.600 --> 0:18:28.800 I'm not that perfect, like maybe I did deserve what 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:30.360 happened to me, And it's like, no, no, no, that's 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:33.480 not true. It's like we're all just humans kind of 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:36.760 trying to get through life not harming other people and 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:40.480 not being harmed. Like you don't have to be an angel, 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.520 a person who's never made a mistake, a fully virtuous 0:18:44.560 --> 0:18:46.760 person to you know, deserve our sympathy. 0:18:47.119 --> 0:18:50.080 I think according to the Justice Department, only about fifteen 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:55.280 percent of fraud victims actually report the crime to law enforcement, 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.879 and that's because of shame and guilt, embarrassment kind of 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.720 belief about what they've gone through. Why do you think 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:06.640 it's so difficult for people to report these crimes. 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:09.680 Through reporting, the story became clear to me that some 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.720 of that is justified because of law enforcement's response. You know, 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:16.600 when law enforcement is dismissive, then why would you tell 0:19:16.640 --> 0:19:18.880 this to a cop if the cop is just gonna 0:19:19.240 --> 0:19:21.960 blame you and not do anything about it. So, to 0:19:22.040 --> 0:19:24.480 a certain extent, the shame is internal, but it's also 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.879 like coming from the people who are supposed to be 0:19:26.920 --> 0:19:27.520 helping too. 0:19:27.920 --> 0:19:29.840 Do you think there are things that we can do 0:19:30.280 --> 0:19:35.280 to kind of fairly portray survivors without adding to the stigma. 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:37.919 This is something that is a lot better than it 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:40.840 used to be, as centering survivors in the stories and 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:45.159 not fixating on the perpetrator, you know, making it all 0:19:45.240 --> 0:19:47.480 about him. Even if the story is like he's so bad, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:50.280 he's so bad, the subtext of that is like, but 0:19:50.359 --> 0:19:52.800 he's also kind of special and brilliant, and he's the 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:55.720 one we're paying attention to. So I think that has 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.360 gotten a lot better, and not just for romance scams, 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:00.679 but you know, these kind of mass shoot and like 0:20:00.720 --> 0:20:03.800 all of this stuff about you know, not repeating the 0:20:03.880 --> 0:20:08.240 perpetrator's name, just not making them kind of accidentally into 0:20:08.280 --> 0:20:11.280 heroes or anti heroes, just not making them the center 0:20:11.320 --> 0:20:11.800 of the story. 0:20:15.280 --> 0:20:17.680 I've tried my best over the years to make sure 0:20:17.720 --> 0:20:22.240 the girlfriends doesn't center a perpetrator like Derek Aldred. But 0:20:22.600 --> 0:20:26.320 I also couldn't ignore him altogether, and neither could Rachel. 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.199 A lot of these reflections about not centering the perpetrator 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:33.200 were things that I learned through the process of writing 0:20:33.200 --> 0:20:34.280 and reporting this story. 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:44.000 You actually meet Derek Aldred mm h more after the break. 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.520 When I went to go meet him, I was still 0:21:00.119 --> 0:21:03.800 really in that kind of traditional true crime mode of like, well, 0:21:03.800 --> 0:21:05.520 you got to meet the bad guy and try to 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:08.240 get him to tell you all of his secrets, Like 0:21:08.320 --> 0:21:11.680 that's that's what makes for an exciting, thrilling story. 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:15.320 Back in twenty seventeen, Derek was real keen to talk 0:21:15.359 --> 0:21:16.760 to Rachel about her pace. 0:21:17.280 --> 0:21:20.359 I think I was just hoping to get a sense 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.720 of who he was, his background, how did he explain, 0:21:23.800 --> 0:21:26.199 what he did, what made him tick, you know, all 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:29.280 of those questions that you have as a journalist trying 0:21:29.280 --> 0:21:31.639 to get inside somebody's head. 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.159 At that time, Derek was being held on ramond in 0:21:35.240 --> 0:21:38.440 Texas awaiting his sentencing hearing. 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:40.800 And so I made an appointment to go out there 0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:43.960 and see him. They wouldn't let us meet in person, 0:21:44.000 --> 0:21:47.600 although like I was at the place where he was incarcerated, 0:21:47.720 --> 0:21:49.280 was still like a video call. It was a very 0:21:49.280 --> 0:21:52.000 weird kind of setup to almost like talking on a 0:21:52.040 --> 0:21:55.720 payphone with this like grainy little video where I can 0:21:55.760 --> 0:21:59.040 see him in his prison uniform. He says everything that 0:21:59.040 --> 0:22:02.000 you would want a source to say, right, like, there's 0:22:02.040 --> 0:22:04.800 more to this story. I'm really happy to talk to you. 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:06.679 I'll tell you all about it. He said he was 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:08.959 going to like give me the password to his email. 0:22:09.000 --> 0:22:10.720 He was like, Oh, there's all of these like files. 0:22:10.720 --> 0:22:12.480 You could go into my email and you can see 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.560 the emails between me and these women. And I was like, wow, 0:22:15.560 --> 0:22:17.639 that'll be so amazing, Like what a great thing to have. 0:22:17.760 --> 0:22:20.880 Then I could quote, you know, like how he's seducing them, 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:23.160 and see all this behind the scenes and figure out 0:22:23.160 --> 0:22:27.639 the timing, and I got really excited, and you know, 0:22:27.760 --> 0:22:29.240 that all fell apart. Later. 0:22:29.320 --> 0:22:32.720 Of course, when Rachel says it could happen to you, 0:22:33.280 --> 0:22:36.520 she really does mean it, because in a way it 0:22:36.600 --> 0:22:37.280 happened to her. 0:22:38.040 --> 0:22:41.640 Of Course he didn't do that. Of course that never happened. 0:22:42.119 --> 0:22:47.040 All the exonerating detail Derek promised never quite materialized. 0:22:47.960 --> 0:22:51.159