Speaker 1: You are a mysterious woman, elusive, and you're also she's
Speaker 1: she any not me, not on my mate? Yo, yo yo,
Speaker 1: what is your child mother? Yo's going down the stoor
Speaker 1: like Welcome to Like a Virgin, the show where we
Speaker 1: give yesterday's pop culture, today's takes, I'm ros Damo and
Speaker 1: I'm Fran Toronto and versions. If you haven't yet, you
Speaker 1: need to take out your little smartphone right now, right now,
Speaker 1: pull up your you know, web browser of choice and
Speaker 1: go to Paige Treon dot com slash Like a Virgin
Speaker 1: to become a patron a found to become a founding
Speaker 1: patron and get weakly exclusive bonus episodes. And then when
Speaker 1: you're done, if you're feeling if you're feeling um like
Speaker 1: in a shopping mood, go over to Like a Virgin
Speaker 1: for twenty sixty nine dot com period to buy our
Speaker 1: merch Buying that youre l was one of the most
Speaker 1: gratifying moments of my career. Honestly, um we it must
Speaker 1: also be said, you know, I'm realizing now patron not
Speaker 1: a very gender friendly word. Maybe maybe y'all are matrons.
Speaker 1: Maybe maybe there's an option to be a patron and
Speaker 1: an option to be. I mean, we can't actually do that,
Speaker 1: but like just like just because it's we're gonna start,
Speaker 1: We're gonna start a competing service called Matron. Yeah, Matreon, yeah,
Speaker 1: zam Matreon z Oh god, you know what thing is?
Speaker 1: I'm sure that exists. Yeah, and it's just like extremely
Speaker 1: flop tina. Yeah, they only sell like fluid fluid beauty products. Oh,
Speaker 1: flow fluid beauty. Can't wait to see what they cook
Speaker 1: up from Pride this year? This year? Oh my god,
Speaker 1: how are you feeling about Pride? All things considered? Are
Speaker 1: you getting any inquiries yet? Are you? Are? You know?
Speaker 1: And let me tell you my DMS and my email
Speaker 1: are open for any and all opportunities. Yes, I'm very
Speaker 1: very bookable. I'm very submissive and bookable. Maybe that'll be
Speaker 1: a hot um Yeah, no it should be. I mean, honestly, virgins,
Speaker 1: if you want a crowdsource and and give us feedback
Speaker 1: on the merch like an item you want, we're already
Speaker 1: seeing some cool suggestions. And also, if you're a Patreon subscriber,
Speaker 1: you are welcome to tell us what you want to
Speaker 1: hear from our Patreon. You cannot tell us what you
Speaker 1: want to hear if you don't subscribe. Once you get on,
Speaker 1: you get absolutely no. Once you get on, you can
Speaker 1: tell us what's missing. Um, yeah, that's that's something we're
Speaker 1: going to figure out. Um. Down the road is like,
Speaker 1: you know, a lot of Patreon people are like on
Speaker 1: Discord or whatever, and like we're just we're just not
Speaker 1: going to do that. But we we we talked to
Speaker 1: the people at Patreon. They were like, um, are you
Speaker 1: interested in you know, Discord, And we were like, no,
Speaker 1: heart emoji, yeah, I'm good, love and enjoy. Um. We
Speaker 1: do want to engage with you, though, and we want
Speaker 1: to find a way to do that in a cool
Speaker 1: social chatty way. And so you know, we're developing that
Speaker 1: as we go. But Discord, it's gonna be a no
Speaker 1: from me, dog, It's gonna be a no no no
Speaker 1: no no no no no no no wait. How does
Speaker 1: jesse j do it? No no no no no no
Speaker 1: no no no no. I can't I can't do it.
Speaker 1: No one can do it. But um, we also have
Speaker 1: to acknowledge what you heard just before we started talking
Speaker 1: was a brand new theme song, which was is song
Speaker 1: of the Summer, iconic. It absolutely song of the Summer.
Speaker 1: We have already submitted it to the Grammys, to the
Speaker 1: Recording Academy, and um, it's gonna win rock the vote.
Speaker 1: Life Marks did say we're going to EGA and that
Speaker 1: will be the gum. Well she said we were going
Speaker 1: to win an Oscar and I said, oh, right, right right,
Speaker 1: you're all that you will, but that's because you're about
Speaker 1: those stretch goals, you know. Yes. And also Katie from
Speaker 1: Muna said that she would absolutely read the romance novel
Speaker 1: you know of the cover of our new show art
Speaker 1: and I told her she should also write a song
Speaker 1: for the adaptation of the like a Virgin romance novel.
Speaker 1: My jaws dropped because like all of the ideas were
Speaker 1: just flowing through my head. First of all, we just
Speaker 1: need a virgin to write that fan fiction. So like,
Speaker 1: if you want to take this, I mean you have
Speaker 1: I you of my concept and the virgins are clearly
Speaker 1: interested in this concept because I'll okay, we'll give you
Speaker 1: a little tease on something that you hear on Patreon.
Speaker 1: We had a question about um fran and I's possibly
Speaker 1: overlapping ven diagram sexual history right, and um, we won't
Speaker 1: be spilling any details there. Those are Paywald but if
Speaker 1: you want to hear if fran and I are you know,
Speaker 1: sister wives or just wives? Yea you Patreon dot com
Speaker 1: slash like a virgin. Yes, but if you want a
Speaker 1: ghost write this novella, we're here for it, Katie. If
Speaker 1: you want to write an original song for the like
Speaker 1: a virgin pulp fiction lesbian romance, we I mean, that's
Speaker 1: right up your alley. That's truly like, that is muna,
Speaker 1: that is something. Can you imagine us? Can you imagine
Speaker 1: us doing a love scene in a film? I can,
Speaker 1: because obviously we would play ourselves. Yeah, we would play ourselves.
Speaker 1: Although you know, according to gen Z, I don't know
Speaker 1: if you're aware of all this gen Z like puritine discourse,
Speaker 1: they want all sex scenes banned from film? What then? Yes,
Speaker 1: so Z has gen Z has decided that, um, it's
Speaker 1: a weird and grow to simulate sex in film at
Speaker 1: all times a like period, and that there should only
Speaker 1: be sort of you know, fade to Black PG thirteen
Speaker 1: love scenes and no sex should take place ever. And
Speaker 1: if you're interested in seeing that, you're a perv. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's stupid. Obviously, I also like very stupid.
Speaker 1: You and I are very like we resist a lot
Speaker 1: of gen Z bashing on this podcast sometimes because it
Speaker 1: just like ages us so hard. So I will say,
Speaker 1: like some of jay Z, I'm sure there are a
Speaker 1: lot of slutty jay Z people out there, jay Z
Speaker 1: slutty gen Z jay Z slutty gen Z folks out there,
Speaker 1: and they're probably listening to this podcast. But like, listen, girls,
Speaker 1: if you are a member of Generation Z and you
Speaker 1: don't Generation Z, as British people would yes Generations said,
Speaker 1: if you don't think that we should be having sex
Speaker 1: scenes and films and TV shows like it's just your
Speaker 1: light year life, your prudishness is going to have such
Speaker 1: a rude awakening when you enter the world because like,
Speaker 1: we're all out here fucking and doing drugs like that's
Speaker 1: we are all fucking and sucking, fucking sing and except
Speaker 1: very sexual people and people that tend to have prudish
Speaker 1: ideas about sex are usually people that aren't having a
Speaker 1: ton of search. I'm not gonna joy And I feel
Speaker 1: like I, as someone who was extremely prudish when I
Speaker 1: was young, definitely had a bit of a culture shock
Speaker 1: when I, you know, entered gay World and then later
Speaker 1: on trans World and I'm like, oh, like, there's no
Speaker 1: room for being a prude here, Like you don't have
Speaker 1: to be a big old, come guzzling slut. Yes, And
Speaker 1: I just want to say to me, it does not
Speaker 1: there does not seem to be a huge leap and
Speaker 1: ideology from there should be no sex scenes in movies too,
Speaker 1: there should be no drag queen story hours. Like just
Speaker 1: kind of think about which side of history you're trying
Speaker 1: to be on me very very flattening. It's very very unfun.
Speaker 1: It's just an unfun take, Isn't it crazy? How timely
Speaker 1: this week's episode of Drag Race ended up being with
Speaker 1: the drag loose of it all, like coming amidst you
Speaker 1: know what felt, especially in the past like week or two,
Speaker 1: the boiling point of all the conversations around drag and
Speaker 1: you know, like legislation to criminalize it. I was shook.
Speaker 1: I mean obviously, like we've been screaming about trans health
Speaker 1: care for kids like for years and obviously this like
Speaker 1: mainstream of attack on drag has been happening for a while.
Speaker 1: But yeah, it was like kind of crazy because the
Speaker 1: boiling point where you know, Melissa McCarthy and all these
Speaker 1: like you know, Padre Pascal. All these celebrities are posting
Speaker 1: on it, like a few Sundays ago happening right in
Speaker 1: tandem with this, like you know, PSA on drag Race
Speaker 1: that they filmed what a year ago, year and a
Speaker 1: half ago, Like that's I was. I was shook, but
Speaker 1: I guess it's kind of also sad that message is
Speaker 1: just always relevant, it is. I thought it was a
Speaker 1: very good rusical. Yeah, I mean I usually love the rusicals,
Speaker 1: and this was a standout. I don't necessarily think it
Speaker 1: was a standout in terms of how it was performed,
Speaker 1: but the actual songs themselves. I mean it was no
Speaker 1: all stars to iconic Queens through History moment, but it
Speaker 1: was you know up there. Yeah, I felt the same.
Speaker 1: I definitely like there were some boring there were some
Speaker 1: people that were like boring, but like I thought everyone
Speaker 1: was great, Like I didn't think anybody was bad, And
Speaker 1: I also felt, to be totally honest, like Selena Stitis
Speaker 1: was amazing and added great, was like so good on
Speaker 1: choreo and was really emotive in the rusical specifically, which
Speaker 1: is why I'm like, where does the runway matter? Like
Speaker 1: if it's like a bit of a wash on the rusical,
Speaker 1: like let's incorporate Runway into this critique and it feel
Speaker 1: like they're just like playing the producer game or whatever.
Speaker 1: But did you see that video of Selena as Titti's
Speaker 1: dragging Ross Matthews. I did, She's not wrong? Who who?
Speaker 1: I think that a lot when I'm looking at you know,
Speaker 1: Carson Cressley and Ross Matthews, like literally, who are they
Speaker 1: to be talking about what people wear? And and I
Speaker 1: say this as like, I really love Selena as Titties.
Speaker 1: I thought I was so im I was rooting for
Speaker 1: in the beginning, so happy with what she contributed to
Speaker 1: the season. I really wish she was wearing something else
Speaker 1: when she said that PSA because she like I was like,
Speaker 1: it's like you can't shout about fashion and like wear
Speaker 1: this like busted channel knockoff that like doesn't fit you properly. Um,
Speaker 1: but I I love And my favorite genre of content
Speaker 1: is a queen, you know, slandering the show against their
Speaker 1: nondisparagement agreements, like I'm thinking about have you seen that
Speaker 1: video of Gia Gunn where she's like completely naked in
Speaker 1: a gay bar and go, yeah, fucking miss RuPaul. Have
Speaker 1: you seen that. Um, yes, so it's so good. Um
Speaker 1: you were not happy with the Kate Bush lip sync though,
Speaker 1: I mean I wasn't either. I think Kate Bush should
Speaker 1: storm into the studio and demand both of their heads
Speaker 1: on a platter. Yeah, and then take a shit on
Speaker 1: their into their skulls and set them on fire. If
Speaker 1: you're got to give us Park and Bark, you gotta
Speaker 1: give us emotion. You gotta give us like, uh, just
Speaker 1: the thing that they constantly seemed to be forgetting, especially
Speaker 1: Lucy Leduca, who you know I hate. Who I know
Speaker 1: that you hate is that they're doing drag like you're
Speaker 1: doing drag drag, Like, be a drag queen. Don't just
Speaker 1: like your lip sync in your bedroom like I was
Speaker 1: getting bedroom lip sync, Like, make a choice and make
Speaker 1: it extreme. It's like the same thing with Lucy and
Speaker 1: her fucking non existent Beyonce baby bump. I should be
Speaker 1: able to see that baby bump from space. Yes, back,
Speaker 1: you are a drag queen. I should be able to
Speaker 1: see your Kate Bush lip sync from the back of
Speaker 1: the club. Yeah. Agree. I mean it's hard, it's hard
Speaker 1: to like, it's hard to root for Lucy when she's
Speaker 1: like so like I'm the best time to shit, I
Speaker 1: should be winning all these challenges and she's so not
Speaker 1: like she is mediocre, like she Luck's new arms track,
Speaker 1: Lucks the woman that you are. I this week she
Speaker 1: made me follow her on Twitter. H it was fucking honestly,
Speaker 1: she is she a good Twitter follow have you have
Speaker 1: you seen? I don't know, I haven't looked might but
Speaker 1: I did follow. I did follow her. Um, she made
Speaker 1: me watch on talked. I haven't done that all this season. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know what. It was kind of disappointing. It wasn't
Speaker 1: as dramatic as I was hoping it would be. But
Speaker 1: that was an iconic runway moments when she car no
Speaker 1: reason when she went down the line complimented every girl
Speaker 1: and then read Lucy Luduca to filth like she she
Speaker 1: it's very law roach going. You ain't that? Oh God,
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, here's here's my honest thoughts on Lucy.
Speaker 1: I I have a lot of empathy for the try
Speaker 1: hard girls, right like she's getting a jan at it
Speaker 1: and I have I personally identify with with the jan
Speaker 1: at it and yeah, because you're because you're a little
Speaker 1: bit of a jam. I love to try hard. It
Speaker 1: is a terrible downfall of mine. It makes me look
Speaker 1: like a loser a lot of the time. But like,
Speaker 1: why would we punish people for trying really hard? Lucy, Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's because it is fun and lux knows that. Um.
Speaker 1: But like Lucy, like in the the room, Phoebe coming
Speaker 1: in the chat, you'd like to try hard? Accept an
Speaker 1: acting class? Oh my god, shut the I was there
Speaker 1: to observe. How dare you, Phoebe? Um. I have to say, Lucy,
Speaker 1: like I was breaking my heart because like if I
Speaker 1: was on drag race and these two girls are ganging
Speaker 1: up on me because like look looks and what's her face?
Speaker 1: We're ganging up on her very adamantly, and I, you know,
Speaker 1: it did definitely. I was like, this isn't shade anymore.
Speaker 1: This is very personal. So if that happened to me, Rose,
Speaker 1: you know what would happen. I would bug out, Like
Speaker 1: I would bug out because I'd be like, people don't
Speaker 1: really been there. Yeah, exactly, I would bug out, would
Speaker 1: be like people don't like me and I need to
Speaker 1: freak out. But but on the flip side of this,
Speaker 1: you can kind of smell when the other girls don't
Speaker 1: like a certain girl, right, it doesn't matter how good
Speaker 1: you are. How the other girls treat you in the
Speaker 1: room gives us information for what kind of report you
Speaker 1: were building with them while this show was being filmed.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if there have been like solidarity
Speaker 1: footpost for like Lucy, because I imagine she's getting tons
Speaker 1: of hate, but I thought a lot, I mean not
Speaker 1: to like deserved. Yeah, sure, I don't believe anybody deserves
Speaker 1: hate online because you know, it's like so horrible. But
Speaker 1: like shell work, bullying works, Lucy does have a loose
Speaker 1: grip on reality. It reminded me a little bit of
Speaker 1: Valentina because in her first season, but Valentina was thickening yes, yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: um slightly well, Lucy had a lot of misses, but
Speaker 1: like a lot of her drag, especially at the beginning,
Speaker 1: so polished, so good, the body was right like her,
Speaker 1: she'd classic drag and I think she looked so good.
Speaker 1: But like if although the girls don't like you, that's
Speaker 1: saying something to me, And like Valentina, I stand the
Speaker 1: whole season. And then I watched what happened in the
Speaker 1: reunion and I was like, oh, the she the other
Speaker 1: girls do not like her? The other she was like,
Speaker 1: just she didn't build rapport. That's like community is so important,
Speaker 1: that's what. Rapport is so important. Shade is so important
Speaker 1: to like understand and balance And yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: You're right. Community is so important. Community is stories matter.
Speaker 1: Stories are so important. Storytelling is so powerful. Stories. Stories
Speaker 1: are some of the most powerful stories that exist. Oh
Speaker 1: my god, well, Um, with that, Rose, do you have
Speaker 1: any thoughts ahead of our season two into like our
Speaker 1: season two premier Season two premiere, Um sorr storring Harry enough, Yes,
Speaker 1: Harry is of all the Diva dolls. She is definitely one,
Speaker 1: if not the og of generation. Harry is an actress,
Speaker 1: a girl about town, an it girl thinker. Truly you can.
Speaker 1: You can find that out on her letterbox Diva. Yes
Speaker 1: she Oh, she is a cinophile and we are not,
Speaker 1: and we, especially me, we are not. I don't quite
Speaker 1: remember if she like schooled us in the cinephile region,
Speaker 1: but I definitely knew nothing about David Lynch and so
Speaker 1: I'm glad we got into that. We as well as
Speaker 1: sharing a lot more about the Barbie movie than I
Speaker 1: thought she was going to just sick, yes, as well
Speaker 1: as her love I think what Harry does very well
Speaker 1: is a careful but also like Waka Doo, juxtaposition of
Speaker 1: high brow and low brow is kind of Harry's whole stick,
Speaker 1: and she does it very well. I think probably all
Speaker 1: of us moved to LA when we did, you know
Speaker 1: for some kind of santasy of the Hollywood dream, which
Speaker 1: in watching Mulholland Drive, I definitely like saw in the
Speaker 1: fantasy and I did like I mean it was I
Speaker 1: watched it for the first time last night. I'd never
Speaker 1: seen it and like, I am like somewhat of a
Speaker 1: David Lynch girl, like I do love Twin Peaks, but
Speaker 1: it was just like a cultural blind spot for me
Speaker 1: and I it's a weird It's a weird movie. Well,
Speaker 1: speaking of Twin Peaks, did you know that Mulholland Drive
Speaker 1: was originally supposed to be a television show? Yes? I
Speaker 1: read something about that, but can you expand please? He
Speaker 1: shot it to be in the wake of Twin Peaks's success.
Speaker 1: This kind of like ABC souped up glamour version of
Speaker 1: the David Lynch dark drama pretty Girl sensation, and he
Speaker 1: screened it for the executives and they were like, no,
Speaker 1: Tino Shade, What the fuck is there? Yeah? And so
Speaker 1: and this is what I love. He got Canal Plus
Speaker 1: to finance the completion of Twin Peaks, I mean Mulholland
Speaker 1: Drive as a film, which is like the French public Access.
Speaker 1: They fund a lot of French it's it's like a
Speaker 1: French company. David got that, like Foreign Overseas Art House,
Speaker 1: which in France was public Access coin to somehow complete
Speaker 1: this black box or should I say blue box of
Speaker 1: a pilot that he had constructed with the original intention
Speaker 1: for it to go on and on and on. And
Speaker 1: I think, which is so crazy to think about. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Lynch was creating, you know, he creates, and I
Speaker 1: think he did this with Twin Peaks. So he creates.
Speaker 1: He sets up these narratives that he doesn't even know
Speaker 1: where they're going. He has kind of a I guess,
Speaker 1: a spidy sense of where it could go. He sets
Speaker 1: up all the pieces, but like he doesn't know, like
Speaker 1: who the killer is, he doesn't know whose dream it is,
Speaker 1: He doesn't know. He doesn't know who killed Laura Palmer.
Speaker 1: It's not about that. No, he didn't, and they forced
Speaker 1: him to say who it was because that was the
Speaker 1: demand of the TV audience. He didn't want to reveal that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's when the show becomes unwatchable is when you
Speaker 1: know who the killer is. I mean, I guess that.
Speaker 1: Like it makes so much sense about Mulholland Drive because
Speaker 1: watching it, it is so like it's like a series
Speaker 1: of vignettes, even more than it is like a narrative film.
Speaker 1: And I really liked you know, Okay, So I will
Speaker 1: admit at first I was very bored watching it, and
Speaker 1: I was and I was on my phone, and then
Speaker 1: it really just started to draw me in and I
Speaker 1: was so transfixed by it. And it is such an
Speaker 1: LA movie, and I think, like that's such a like
Speaker 1: almost boring thing to say, because like so many movies
Speaker 1: are LA movies. But I don't know it like it
Speaker 1: has this hypnotic thing that I think Hollywood definitely has.
Speaker 1: Hypnotic is very I think, kind of a Lynchian thing,
Speaker 1: like there is something that kind of like grips you
Speaker 1: into the work and then all of a sudden you're
Speaker 1: just like, I have no idea what I'm watching a
Speaker 1: lot of the time, but like I'm in this world
Speaker 1: because it's so weird and you're trying to like figure
Speaker 1: it out. What was your experience of like first watching
Speaker 1: this movie, I guess, or why do you think it's
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit emblematic of like who you are
Speaker 1: or like what are you like to make? I think
Speaker 1: what drew me into it was the way it felt
Speaker 1: like a dream or a dream that I've had. It
Speaker 1: has the logic of a dream, in the pacing of
Speaker 1: a dream. I think that the is this boring? Oh wait,
Speaker 1: now I'm like glued to the spot and I can't
Speaker 1: look away. I think that's part and parcel to how
Speaker 1: David Lynch deals with time. His beats do not go
Speaker 1: snap aty snap snap snap. You know Aaron Sorkin like
Speaker 1: dialogue moving it. It's there's very little sense of urgency. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it takes a long time for things to happen, but
Speaker 1: you get the sense that something is happening with how
Speaker 1: the camera moves and you know, with Angelo Battle Lamentes
Speaker 1: score kind of like leading you down into this dream path.
Speaker 1: And also even the way that it's scripted, the way
Speaker 1: he arranges words and the way conversations are had, it's
Speaker 1: not naturalistic. It's kind of like two people in two
Speaker 1: different dreams trying to send each other the same message
Speaker 1: or a different message, Like that scene when they're talking
Speaker 1: in winkies in the diner in the daytime. There's that
Speaker 1: like score in the background that lets you know something
Speaker 1: bad is happening, but you're in this like pretty pink
Speaker 1: diner and the sun is shining. I loved that juxtaposition
Speaker 1: of the sunshine and I guess evil or or darkness daytime.
Speaker 1: And I think that is that is so Los Angeles
Speaker 1: as knowing that some of the ugliest, grossest, most evil
Speaker 1: things are happening in the most brightly lit possible places. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the whole movie. I feel like maybe a lot of
Speaker 1: his work is just very like suspended ten, Like what
Speaker 1: if suspended tension had like no payoff, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean. You're really like on the edge of your
Speaker 1: seat for kind of nothing a lot of the time.
Speaker 1: And that is you know, part of the gag. But
Speaker 1: I I mean, I I fell asleep. I will not
Speaker 1: lie because this was last night and I am but
Speaker 1: I but when as soon as she finds as soon
Speaker 1: as she's like, you know, she's like Rita, your friend, Rita,
Speaker 1: you know, And and she finds out that like Rita's not.
Speaker 1: That's when I was just like, oh, I understand, kind
Speaker 1: of like the people always say in Hollywood, They're like,
Speaker 1: what's the engine of this thing? Like, what's the engine?
Speaker 1: And I feel like a lot of the movie was
Speaker 1: like disinterested, I guess, in the engine and more interested
Speaker 1: in like the characters and like the dream state of
Speaker 1: it all and the vibe. Yeah about the vibes. Yeah, Well,
Speaker 1: she names herself Rita after looking up at that poster
Speaker 1: of Rita Hayworth and Gilda, which I also watched recently
Speaker 1: for the first time, which is another movie about a
Speaker 1: beautiful woman with great hair who is pretending to be
Speaker 1: somebody she's not. So Lynch is kind of put in
Speaker 1: it right in your face with the there is a woman,
Speaker 1: and she's beautiful, and she's not what she seems to be,
Speaker 1: and that alone is sort of the seed of what
Speaker 1: made the femme fatale back in you know, the forties
Speaker 1: and fifties, This idea of a woman who is tricking
Speaker 1: you and she seems to be in control, but she's
Speaker 1: really in trouble. But by the rules and standards of
Speaker 1: the time, all of this is not a great thing
Speaker 1: for a woman to be and quite frequently the fem
Speaker 1: fatals were actually quite masculine, which is I think what
Speaker 1: rendered them fatal in that sense. Even if they didn't
Speaker 1: look masculine, they had these kind of like you know,
Speaker 1: boyish or mannish ways of you know, talking or playing
Speaker 1: people or even just maneuvering, you know, because you were
Speaker 1: so used to seeing a kind of passive, pretty pleasing
Speaker 1: woman at the time. Well, because what's more dangerous than
Speaker 1: a woman who takes some of masculinity for herself cling cloves,
Speaker 1: cling close and fatal attraction or just gland close in
Speaker 1: general or something like that. Well, it's it's interesting because
Speaker 1: mulholland Dry takes Naomi Watts's character Betty slash Diane and
Speaker 1: kind of um dissects a single woman into kind of
Speaker 1: these two ideas of what a woman should be. Instead
Speaker 1: of like the femme fatale, you know, like the Lauren
Speaker 1: Bacall or somebody like that, with like the big shoulders
Speaker 1: and kind of the raspy voice. It's like there's Diane
Speaker 1: Selwyn who's like, you know, a druggy, bitter lesbian that's
Speaker 1: the kind of new fem fatal and then she is um,
Speaker 1: she sublimates or she is split from her she is
Speaker 1: somehow connected to Betty Elms, who's this like sweetest pie
Speaker 1: blonde little bimbo. Well, it's like the two film archetypes.
Speaker 1: It's the ingenue and the fem fatal. And this movie
Speaker 1: is about, I mean about movies, and we talk about
Speaker 1: like how annoyed we are about like stories that are
Speaker 1: about stories and movies that are about But this is
Speaker 1: like about Hollywood and the way that it like rips
Speaker 1: people apart. And I did like do a little like
Speaker 1: reading and like watched a video essay after I watched
Speaker 1: the movie about how it's like about how it's like
Speaker 1: about the idea, like about how Rita is supposed to
Speaker 1: represent the idea of like the casting couch in Hollywood
Speaker 1: and like women who trade their sexuality for success, and
Speaker 1: like I mean, I'm sure this is the thing with
Speaker 1: David Lynch. It's like sure that is an interpretation of
Speaker 1: the movie that if it makes sense to you, like Okay,
Speaker 1: I think there's many other interpretations of this movie. And
Speaker 1: I think there's also a version of it where you
Speaker 1: watch it and you don't interpret it and you just
Speaker 1: take this beautiful fever dream of a film and are like,
Speaker 1: that is a piece of art that I watched and
Speaker 1: that will like linger in my mind for the rest
Speaker 1: of my life, the way that some dreams do, where
Speaker 1: you don't aren't necessarily able to extract any meaning from them,
Speaker 1: but they haunt you forever. Yeah, I think that He's
Speaker 1: like it's almost like David Lynch isn't really interest doesn't
Speaker 1: want it to be interpreted. You know. Well, he has
Speaker 1: said time and time again he's like refused to say
Speaker 1: what the film is really about. But yet on the
Speaker 1: DVD release of the film, there's a bunch of questions
Speaker 1: that he like prompts you with for watching the film,
Speaker 1: and they're all very vague and like ephemeral, and it's
Speaker 1: like it's kind of a troll, which I love. Right now,
Speaker 1: I'm so surprised, I know about that list. It's like
Speaker 1: a ten list thing. It's like the keys to this mystery.
Speaker 1: I'm so surprised that he did that. There's so many
Speaker 1: like silly little nuggets for these art films that you
Speaker 1: can find in the like kind of post y two
Speaker 1: K DVD sort of like extra's industry. He didn't want
Speaker 1: to provide any of that, but it was kind of
Speaker 1: like this nace way of getting it to an audience,
Speaker 1: like command David, just like throw us a bone here, No,
Speaker 1: but he doesn't explain. And you know, right now, I'm
Speaker 1: actually doing this play in New York called Des Moines,
Speaker 1: which is by Dennis Johnson, who's this amazing novelist and
Speaker 1: poet and also playwright. And the play that I'm doing
Speaker 1: right now totally exists in this dream logic that goes
Speaker 1: between realism and naturalism and then total surrealism. And frequently
Speaker 1: we're looking at this text or we were, and we
Speaker 1: don't know what we're saying. And Dennis Johnson is no
Speaker 1: longer with us, so the playwright isn't in the room,
Speaker 1: and this is his last play, so this is kind
Speaker 1: of just like a treasure map that he left us.
Speaker 1: And I think that Mulholland Drive is really fascinating on
Speaker 1: the level of acting too, because you know, particularly Naomi
Speaker 1: Wats's performance, you can see her making choices. She knows
Speaker 1: what she's saying. She probably received the script and said,
Speaker 1: oh my god, like what does this mean? This could
Speaker 1: go any which way? You know, like at the you know,
Speaker 1: like even that repeated line like we don't stop here
Speaker 1: that you know, Laura Maria Harring says at the beginning,
Speaker 1: and I believe Naomi Watts says at the end dialogue
Speaker 1: when that happens, right, like what does that mean? Who's we?
Speaker 1: Why isn't she saying like what's going on? Or like hey? Why?
Speaker 1: It's like what you have to make a choice as
Speaker 1: an actor if you don't know what you're saying, you
Speaker 1: have to choose what you're saying. And you have to
Speaker 1: let the playwright and the filmmaking or the theater making
Speaker 1: or all the other people working on it, they can
Speaker 1: work out the logic. If you know what you're doing,
Speaker 1: then something will read on screen. And I think that
Speaker 1: Mulholland Drive is this impossible alchemy of like Naomi Watt's
Speaker 1: making choices, Laura Maria Harring making choices. I believe Peter Deming,
Speaker 1: the cinematographer, correct me if I'm wrong. That's who did
Speaker 1: Twin Peaks. I hope it's the same person making choices.
Speaker 1: Angelo Battlamenti making choices, Mary Sweeney the editor making choices,
Speaker 1: Tatiana like everybody's making their own choice, and David Lynch
Speaker 1: is just kind of I think like encouraging everybody. I
Speaker 1: think what David Lynch has is a trust of his collaborators.
Speaker 1: I don't think he's this like rigid outer guy. I'm
Speaker 1: sure he knows exactly, you know. I know that he
Speaker 1: knows what he wants, like, you know, down to the
Speaker 1: color of the lipstick and whatever. But it's really this
Speaker 1: multi valenced thing. Even just like talking about it, I'm
Speaker 1: struggling too, because it doesn't do justice to what it
Speaker 1: feels like to watch it, for sure, And I feel
Speaker 1: like you can see the relationships I guess that he
Speaker 1: has with the actors because of like what isn't said
Speaker 1: and what you can't necessarily explicitly parcel. And I think
Speaker 1: that's what gets me so wet about David Lynch in
Speaker 1: Stay in Age because all the content, almost all the
Speaker 1: content that we're kind of presented, you know, in the
Speaker 1: age of like peak streaming TV, it's all so on
Speaker 1: the surface, it's all so recappable. It's also let's like
Speaker 1: find the memes and all the Easter egg yeah, recap
Speaker 1: reboot memes, yeah, all that stuff. You know, everything has
Speaker 1: to mean something, everything has to be plucked out right,
Speaker 1: and like, you know, I watch all those YouTube videos too,
Speaker 1: But it's like the economy of like meaning on YouTube
Speaker 1: and how people can build entire careers on pointing at
Speaker 1: something and saying what it means. I know, I'm going
Speaker 1: to make a YouTube video about that here. Yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, pardon my non binary vibes, but I'm just like,
Speaker 1: does it all need to be explained? Can can we
Speaker 1: chew on a little fucking mystery bag? Like? Can can?
Speaker 1: Can we sit with a question mark? Can we sit
Speaker 1: on it? What happened to mystery? It's very I feel
Speaker 1: like Lexie Featherston just like about to fall out that window,
Speaker 1: like nobody, why where's mystery? Nobody wants to have fun anymore? Well,
Speaker 1: Charlotte famously says in season one that it's important to
Speaker 1: remain a creature of miss. I think that's after Carrie farted.
Speaker 1: Probably what did you make of the Lesbian? Could you
Speaker 1: even call it that? I sapphic, but I also felt
Speaker 1: like it was not. I think if that movie came
Speaker 1: out today, there would be like a them dot Us
Speaker 1: cover about it. There would be like it would there
Speaker 1: would be so much extracted from that and in fact,
Speaker 1: like what I thought about it in in the movie
Speaker 1: is that in the story that it's telling, Like it's
Speaker 1: such a logical conclusion of what these women are experiencing together, yes,
Speaker 1: which is that they are like this. They become immediately
Speaker 1: obsessed with each other and they are like ciphers of
Speaker 1: each other and there's this like doubling and doppelgangering, and
Speaker 1: of course the logical conclusion is that they fuck. And
Speaker 1: it's not about like are they queer, like what are
Speaker 1: the political implications of it? It just like it's there's
Speaker 1: all the this energy swirling around them, and the logical
Speaker 1: conclusion is that they fuck because they're obsessed with each other.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know that that famous line that Betty says,
Speaker 1: I want to with you. That's like the pansexual anthem
Speaker 1: to with you. It's not about gender, it's about you,
Speaker 1: about you baby. And then the end of the movie
Speaker 1: is kind of like okay, like what might the real
Speaker 1: world implications of this be? And it's like, i mean,
Speaker 1: like fascinating, but almost less interesting to me than that
Speaker 1: like ecstatic moment of them fucking when it's just like
Speaker 1: this has to happen. Yeah, it's that it's that moment
Speaker 1: where it's revealed to them. It's it's after they come
Speaker 1: back from Club Sencia. So they've just had this like
Speaker 1: supernatural surreal reckoning that nothing is real and that there
Speaker 1: is no band, there is no god, there is no
Speaker 1: could you know, there's no man behind the curtains, there's
Speaker 1: no man behind the curtain, there's there's there's no engine.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's almost kind of like a godlessness
Speaker 1: and a nihilism. It's like, you know, what else do
Speaker 1: we have in this moment but each other? What else
Speaker 1: can we consume in like get inside but each other? Um?
Speaker 1: You know. I mean I think that that's very reflective
Speaker 1: of like what sex is and what can make it
Speaker 1: really cool. But it's not a version of sex you
Speaker 1: often see in the movies because sex is often used
Speaker 1: for plot, and we all know that plot is not
Speaker 1: the thing here. Yes, sex is vibe. That really is it.
Speaker 1: It's not plot driven sex. It's no, it's it is
Speaker 1: the vibe. Well, I love that. I want to have
Speaker 1: just non plot driven viby sex. I'm having viby sex
Speaker 1: that is not plot driven. Plotless sex is Yeah, that
Speaker 1: is the vibe. I guess I kind of am two.
Speaker 1: I had sex in an office stairwell last way. Oh,
Speaker 1: that's kind of plot driven on his bike, on his break,
Speaker 1: that's very plot driven, honestly. No, but it wasn't. But
Speaker 1: it wasn't the cracked smile. We just saw that the
Speaker 1: that the visions cannot see. Anyways. So you're a theater
Speaker 1: girl now, yeah, in and out of the theater. Okay.
Speaker 1: So what's the next project for you? Um? The next
Speaker 1: project is UM the Seagull Oh my god. Yeah, it's
Speaker 1: an adaptation of The Seagull by Thomas Bradshaw. It's called
Speaker 1: The Seagull Woodstock, New York and it's at the New
Speaker 1: Group at the Pershing Square Signature Center on forty second Street. Um.
Speaker 1: I'm playing the role of Sasha, which is a version
Speaker 1: of the original Masha. Um. Parker Posey is playing the irena.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, Party Girls Unite absolutely. Nat Wolf is
Speaker 1: playing the Constantine character who I'm in love with my
Speaker 1: friend Patrick Foley from Fake Friends, that amazing queer theater collective.
Speaker 1: He is, you know, playing the guy who's in love
Speaker 1: with me and I hate him and then I marry
Speaker 1: him spoiler alert. So I'm super excited for that. And
Speaker 1: that goes until April ninth. I think the performances start
Speaker 1: like the first or second week in February, so that's
Speaker 1: what I'm here doing. And then after that it'll be
Speaker 1: you know, May or April or whatever. I don't know.
Speaker 1: I have stuff coming out. The Idol on HBO will
Speaker 1: be coming out, which I'm in. I did an episode
Speaker 1: of this anthology series on Apple called Extrapolations, which is
Speaker 1: basically Black Mirror but with climate change and celebrities. Okay,
Speaker 1: I am not one of those celebrities. Was made very
Speaker 1: clear to me when we were shooting. I shot this
Speaker 1: episode with Marianne Cotillard, Forrest Whitaker, Toby Maguire, and Asa Gonzalez,
Speaker 1: and it was and while we were shooting it, they
Speaker 1: like announced the four of them and not me. It
Speaker 1: was like wow, we were shooting. I was just like
Speaker 1: I saw the announcement. I was like, oh work. They
Speaker 1: did announced me later in like a larger one with
Speaker 1: other people, but I was I was like, oh work. Um,
Speaker 1: so like that'll come out at some point and then
Speaker 1: you know, the pink Elephant. Come on, Barbie, let's go pretty.
Speaker 1: Don't say that. I am in the Barbie movie, which
Speaker 1: will be coming out on July twenty first, and you're not.
Speaker 1: Isn't that when it comes out? I don't know. Is
Speaker 1: it twenty third? I think it's twenty first. No, No,
Speaker 1: it's the day Oppenheimer comes out, Barbenheimer and Pink Pink Elephant.
Speaker 1: I assume you're not yet ready to talk about it
Speaker 1: press wise, you're not in the press her Barbie, So
Speaker 1: I'm not on the press drunket, but you know everybody,
Speaker 1: everybody gets asked about it. Yeah, and you know it's
Speaker 1: it's always a sound bite. Very yeah. I mean there's
Speaker 1: actually still so little about the final product that I know.
Speaker 1: I haven't seen anything. I know what I shot, and
Speaker 1: I know what the script is, and I'm so excited
Speaker 1: to see it. Yeah. Yeah, that trailer got me very hype.
Speaker 1: It's wild. Yeah, I got you hype. Could never could
Speaker 1: never be predicted. Like, I feel like there's so much
Speaker 1: about it where you're just like you you don't understand,
Speaker 1: you don't really know what you're you're getting going into
Speaker 1: the movie, but you think you have an idea. And
Speaker 1: I don't think that's what the movie is going to serve.
Speaker 1: I hope, what do you think it's going to serve?
Speaker 1: I think it's gonna serve like fucking weird, Like I hope,
Speaker 1: like I hope it's weird, and I hope it's like
Speaker 1: I don't know not to I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: I just like was I think the movie helped very
Speaker 1: unserious and very willing to make fun of one of
Speaker 1: the most recognizable entities on the planet. And I thought
Speaker 1: I didn't know that that was going to happen because
Speaker 1: it's Coprode with Mattel. Yeah, that's exactly what it is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Mattel gave Greta and Noah and us a lot of freedom.
Speaker 1: They really trusted us to go there. I think, knowing
Speaker 1: that we would have to go there in order to
Speaker 1: make a film about this doll, this idea of a woman,
Speaker 1: this with this loaded history, how do we make sense
Speaker 1: of this in the present? I think they knew the
Speaker 1: envelope had to be pushed in order for it to
Speaker 1: you know, quite frankly sell. And that's what we did.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's so refreshing in the world of like
Speaker 1: existing ip and everyone being so precious about how you
Speaker 1: get to play with the toys and in what sandbox
Speaker 1: Like it sounds like the box was maybe a little bigger, dirtier,
Speaker 1: or whatever, dirtier, I don't know, but bigger certainly. I mean,
Speaker 1: I think it is going to be. It's it's not
Speaker 1: like a squeaky clean thing for all ages, I imagine.
Speaker 1: I think all ages can enjoy it, but it's definitely
Speaker 1: there are definitely adult ideas and adult themes and adult
Speaker 1: vibes in it that will hopefully play to a wide audience.
Speaker 1: I thought about drag Race a lot when I was
Speaker 1: shooting it. No way, Yeah, it was kind of like
Speaker 1: Greta gerwigs drag Race and you were you a contestine
Speaker 1: or you know, because I'm there for like sixteen hours
Speaker 1: a day, I've got this wig on my head, I'm
Speaker 1: painted from hedge of how I'm singed, and you know,
Speaker 1: today it's a comedy challenge. Today, it's an acting challenge. Today,
Speaker 1: it's a dance challenge today, um, not a sewing challenge.
Speaker 1: But it was very much I kind of had to
Speaker 1: do everything I had ever learned how to do. Ever,
Speaker 1: going back to when I was five, and I don't know,
Speaker 1: I thought a lot about like RuPaul when I was
Speaker 1: making the film, and about like what he says on
Speaker 1: drag Race, what he encourages the girls to do, like
Speaker 1: to act the fool and to let it all hang
Speaker 1: out and to not take yourself so seriously and to
Speaker 1: make grew laugh and Greta would laugh. She was like
Speaker 1: she would be holding it in and you would just
Speaker 1: hear this, and that's how you knew. We started saying
Speaker 1: this thing after every take. I forget where this came from,
Speaker 1: but it was all about, um, mommy, say you like it. Mommy,
Speaker 1: say you like it, Mommy, say you like it. That's that,
Speaker 1: That's what we used to say. That's so funny, her mother.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's when you have all the
Speaker 1: power of like you know, the Warner Brothers, you know,
Speaker 1: hair and makeup and costume department behind you. Shout out
Speaker 1: to Jacqueline Duran costume designer, shout out too if on
Speaker 1: a Primeriic hair and makeup designer. When you have all
Speaker 1: that behind you and on you, you can act really foolish.
Speaker 1: And so yeah, true, yeah, no, it's it's that movie
Speaker 1: took everything I had. It was exhausted. It was two
Speaker 1: like two and a half plus months, and like, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like I'm not even like the biggest role in it.
Speaker 1: It's like I'm kind of like it's like I'm in
Speaker 1: a bunch of scenes I like, show up like surf gunt,
Speaker 1: but say a couple funny things. You know. It's it's
Speaker 1: a big ensemble piece. It's it's it's far and wide,
Speaker 1: and you know, I don't know how it's going to
Speaker 1: turn out in the edit, but I've heard that there
Speaker 1: is a version. Greta came to my play and she
Speaker 1: said that there is a cut now that she likes.
Speaker 1: And I think that test screenings are going to start soon,
Speaker 1: which like the very idea that petrifies me. And I
Speaker 1: don't know. I'm just like I'm trying to just treat
Speaker 1: it like this job I did, Like I don't want
Speaker 1: to get caught up in the hype. I believe nothing
Speaker 1: beautiful can bloom in the hype. In the light of
Speaker 1: the hype. I just want to hope for the best.
Speaker 1: It's very Hollywood of you. Well, I don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: like there's been so many times where I thought something
Speaker 1: was going to come out and change my life and
Speaker 1: it totally flopped and then nothing changed and I was
Speaker 1: back in the breadline. You know, Like that's Hollywood is
Speaker 1: like You're like, it's going to change and then everything's
Speaker 1: the same, but it took like three years to get
Speaker 1: to the climax of whatever you thought the change was
Speaker 1: going to be because Hollywood runways are so long. And
Speaker 1: then you're Diane at the end of Mulholland paying to
Speaker 1: have your lover killed. Okay, wait, so I didn't get
Speaker 1: through the end. Someone dies at the end? Um, you're
Speaker 1: not gonna tell me, no, But it's like, it's who. Well, yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, yes, someone does die at the end, one
Speaker 1: of the women. But does she I don't know? Bury
Speaker 1: your gays? Wow, I mean, do you actually want to
Speaker 1: It doesn't I can't even even giving you the plot
Speaker 1: details doesn't really mean anything. It's the same thing. It's
Speaker 1: like if I told you who killed Laura Palmer, It's
Speaker 1: like that wouldn't really doesn't really, I don't even matter.
Speaker 1: I don't remember who killed. There're certain plot things like
Speaker 1: that that I kind of just choose not to accept
Speaker 1: in certain things, like I don't accept that Carry ended
Speaker 1: up with Big not really. Oh, who do you think
Speaker 1: she should have ended up with? Yeah? No, no, it's
Speaker 1: not a who. It's like she could have ended up
Speaker 1: with any of them. She could have ended up with none.
Speaker 1: Of them, you know, like, do I believe that in
Speaker 1: like the spiritual truth of twin peaks that spoiler alert,
Speaker 1: like Leland Palmer killed Laura Palmer. Like, no, not necessarily,
Speaker 1: because that's not what the show's about. Sex and the
Speaker 1: City isn't about Carrie finding true love. It's about her
Speaker 1: looking for it, and that's what's so interesting about the show.
Speaker 1: And it's about four girls and the and the city
Speaker 1: being the fifth character or Stanford is the only real character,
Speaker 1: and the other four girls are dreams. I was listening
Speaker 1: to another podcast the other day where somebody said that
Speaker 1: Sex and the City is about like four gay men
Speaker 1: living the gay lifestyle and it's just like women. Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh that's absolutely that's you know, like the Darren star
Speaker 1: Michael Patrick King fantasy Yeah avatars, Yeah, for like what
Speaker 1: a lot of like gay men were living out because
Speaker 1: it's like if six hetero women were fags. Literally, I
Speaker 1: mean that's like part of why it was. But that's
Speaker 1: like why it was amazing, because like you were watching
Speaker 1: like women have sex in ways that you had never
Speaker 1: seen before, at least in those first few seasons where
Speaker 1: you were just like, yeah, what like women fucking like
Speaker 1: gay men well, the first episodes, literally Carris columnists. Can
Speaker 1: women have sex like men? Like? That is the premise
Speaker 1: of the whole show. And you know what we can
Speaker 1: we have and we will continue to meland. Okay, the
Speaker 1: trans reclamation of Fire Island is a thing as of
Speaker 1: last summer. Can we talk about that? Okay? No? No,
Speaker 1: Like I first started coming there, I leaned into the mice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: little asmr. I first started coming to Fire Island like
Speaker 1: three summers ago, and I was just like, I am
Speaker 1: going to plant my flag on this gay island because
Speaker 1: I belong here. I Am going to like party like
Speaker 1: these gays. I'm going to have sex like these gays.
Speaker 1: I'm going to like rent beautiful homes like these gays,
Speaker 1: because like I belong here. The spirits are telling me
Speaker 1: that I belong here. I'm supposed to be here. And
Speaker 1: it's not just me, it's the dolls, the dolls. Where
Speaker 1: are the dolls. I know where the dolls are. The
Speaker 1: dolls can't afford to pay these like crazy rental prices.
Speaker 1: So I'm like, if there's if there's anywhere where I'm
Speaker 1: like willing to admit that I am like nakedly social
Speaker 1: climbing and flying to it is Fire Island. Yes, you
Speaker 1: have to do some wealthy people there so that we
Speaker 1: can import you know, we need like a doll invasion
Speaker 1: of Fire Island. We need to become the wealthy people. No,
Speaker 1: because there's there's there's like a like, yeah, sub population
Speaker 1: of like broke twins who just got to be on
Speaker 1: Fire Island all summer and and they inherit it or
Speaker 1: they fucked someone's daddy or whatever, you know, yeah, or no,
Speaker 1: like they got brought out there for sex. Like right,
Speaker 1: I would love to create that or help to create
Speaker 1: that for the dolls. And I'm and I'm literally like
Speaker 1: marching around to all these houses being like have you
Speaker 1: ever listened to Ethel? I'm like you're like you're witness Noine.
Speaker 1: But but I'm also just like running around and you know,
Speaker 1: like I met um somebody who I dated for several months.
Speaker 1: Since you're like in a pool and Fire Island, It's
Speaker 1: like I'm planting that blag too. I'm like, y'all can
Speaker 1: like got with the dolls too. It's like it's like
Speaker 1: we're we're fun too. Like this is like like like
Speaker 1: we're a part of this too. It's like I don't know,
Speaker 1: I really feel like that place is the platonic, spiritual,
Speaker 1: explosive ideal of what that place is supposed to be.
Speaker 1: Imagine when everybody is there, Yes, you know, you can
Speaker 1: really see that on BAFO weekend. BAFO is this arts
Speaker 1: organization that does this series of residencies all somewhere on
Speaker 1: Fire Island, and in August they have this performance festival
Speaker 1: there and their programming is diverse and obviously queer centered,
Speaker 1: and like everybody comes out for this weekend and you
Speaker 1: see a crowd that is more racially diverse, socioeconomically diverse,
Speaker 1: gender diverse, and everybody's there and like, those are the
Speaker 1: people at the fancy house parties, those are the people
Speaker 1: on the beach ascending, those are the people at the club.
Speaker 1: And it doesn't usually look like that. It's usually just
Speaker 1: like I'm hanging with the white gays and like kumbaya.
Speaker 1: But when it does look like that, it's literally like
Speaker 1: the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. It's paradise. I'm
Speaker 1: all in. It's like we said this when after we
Speaker 1: had this like really lovely like Fire Island summer week
Speaker 1: and after we left, like Rose was like it's crazy
Speaker 1: or I think we were like in the pool and
Speaker 1: Rose was like, it's crazy, how like this is like
Speaker 1: one of the most beautiful places on the planet inhabited
Speaker 1: by some of the worst people alive. Like you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, Like obviously there are a lot of
Speaker 1: amazing people there too, but well, but don't you think
Speaker 1: that that's relative to where our population like like imagine
Speaker 1: if you were in like Easthampton. Sure, yeah it would
Speaker 1: be it would be much worse. But that feeling was
Speaker 1: like so much because of how um how different it
Speaker 1: was this summer when for once, this was the first
Speaker 1: time when we rented a house for a week that
Speaker 1: like we had the house. It wasn't like going and
Speaker 1: staying with someone where they had brought out all the
Speaker 1: people they wanted to fuck and then like they're one
Speaker 1: trans friend and like lesbian friend, and it's like really
Speaker 1: different when you have the house and you get to
Speaker 1: curate the people who come out there and the people
Speaker 1: who they bring out, and like that just breeds more
Speaker 1: and more of the girls and the dolls being out
Speaker 1: there and that that is how we you know, take
Speaker 1: it back right, And I think that gay men need
Speaker 1: to kind of abide by this one guiding principle. My
Speaker 1: friend was talking about this other day about what he
Speaker 1: looks for while dating and a partner, you know, as
Speaker 1: gay guy, one of my best friends. He was like,
Speaker 1: the number one thing I look for when dating, like
Speaker 1: in the gay dating pool, is like, does this man
Speaker 1: love women? If you want to be my lover, you
Speaker 1: gotta get women alls, but also the lesbians and also
Speaker 1: just like girls, there are so many gay men who
Speaker 1: don't enjoy the company of women, who don't see women,
Speaker 1: don't don't write not like the hottest take. But when
Speaker 1: you actually zoom out and think about it, it's like
Speaker 1: gay life is better with women. Literally, literally it just is.
Speaker 1: And I think that you know so many of like
Speaker 1: you know, the party gays, and just like the giggdy gays,
Speaker 1: like they're always I think a lot of them always
Speaker 1: have these very generic complaints about the homogeneity in their
Speaker 1: social circles and in their sexual circles. Like you can
Speaker 1: solve that problem by just bringing women around, whether or
Speaker 1: not you're hanging with them, whether or not you're like
Speaker 1: you know, getting a little MIXI and like loving on
Speaker 1: them or sucking on them, Like gay is just better
Speaker 1: with women. Six gay guys on trans girls. There's a
Speaker 1: very special marriage there. Yeah. Yeah, because gay guys get
Speaker 1: to be a man to that woman in a way
Speaker 1: that they were like shamed and admonished for it and
Speaker 1: then had to mourn probably at a young age, like
Speaker 1: never ever being able to be a man to a
Speaker 1: woman in that way. And trans girls get to like
Speaker 1: receive that and have a man to their woman and
Speaker 1: be a girl to that man in a way that
Speaker 1: feels very I think far away for a lot of us.
Speaker 1: There's kind of this like this like frequently sexless heterosexuality
Speaker 1: that happens between like this is gays and the dolls
Speaker 1: where they can actually create the Norman Rockwell, the Norman
Speaker 1: Rockwell picture together, and I think that that's like the
Speaker 1: glue that binds it. They It's like we kind of
Speaker 1: can create this illusion of heterosexual belonging while still being
Speaker 1: our queer selves, Like we can get the affirmation and
Speaker 1: the thrill of living our own little thing at the
Speaker 1: same time. I totally get what you're saying. There is
Speaker 1: a sort of romanticism in the relationship between a gay
Speaker 1: man and his doll. Yeah. Like my best friend Ryan
Speaker 1: and I like there is we are soulmates siblings and like,
Speaker 1: you know, when we go to the movies, we hold
Speaker 1: hands and like there is there is something like I mean,
Speaker 1: there's nothing sexual about it, but there is a romanticism
Speaker 1: and a tenderness there that does feel very much like
Speaker 1: we are filling out that role of you know, whatever,
Speaker 1: whatever is expected of a man and a woman being
Speaker 1: together in society, and tenderness is such an elusive thing.
Speaker 1: I think for both you know, sis men in the
Speaker 1: gay dating pool and sex pool and like trans women
Speaker 1: in you know, the trans straight dating pool or sex pool,
Speaker 1: I think that having that communion coming together in a
Speaker 1: way that is like essentially societally sanctioned in this like
Speaker 1: header a way, it does create this sense of like
Speaker 1: I got that too, and it's nice that I have that.
Speaker 1: I mean, aside from also affirmation, I do feel like,
Speaker 1: you know, there's like a language that you click into
Speaker 1: really quickly. But I think a lot of like gay
Speaker 1: men like or maybe I'm speaking broadly, but like I
Speaker 1: feel like a lot of gay men that I don't
Speaker 1: know don't have trans people are trans friends in their life,
Speaker 1: and I feel like there's a lot of like you're
Speaker 1: just like and that's so sad. Yeah, it's really sad.
Speaker 1: It's kind of like why. But I think that a
Speaker 1: lot of that has to do with like the fear
Speaker 1: of what they don't know, and yet they I think
Speaker 1: a lot of people that just don't inhabit like trans
Speaker 1: spaces or trans circles just don't know that you actually
Speaker 1: have so much in common. Obviously very different experiences, but
Speaker 1: there's so much overlap. There's so much in your own
Speaker 1: languages that you can exchange. I mean, I don't think
Speaker 1: it's a crime not to have trans people in your life.
Speaker 1: If they're not in your life. I mean, there are
Speaker 1: people freak quently want to forget in all these conversations
Speaker 1: that like there are so few of us. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: think it's more of a crime when there are no
Speaker 1: women in your life. Yeah, particularly particularly with gay men,
Speaker 1: because there is such a celebration of femininity, because the
Speaker 1: gay men are bumping the divas, they are watching drag race,
Speaker 1: they are talking about celebrities, and yet they have no
Speaker 1: actual physical proximity to women. That and I'm fucking weird,
Speaker 1: and back to drag race. Honestly, like, I think that's
Speaker 1: part of why so much of like, you know, contemporary
Speaker 1: drag Race not so much like Drag Race of your
Speaker 1: but a lot of drag Race right now is like
Speaker 1: really hard to watch, like the communities, like the people
Speaker 1: that are consuming it. It's like there's just like ache
Speaker 1: feeling around. I don't know what you're describing, I guess,
Speaker 1: And also just the show. It's like not just good anymore.
Speaker 1: But I still watch every season. I'm can I confess something, Yes,
Speaker 1: I watch drag Race, so I know you, Like, I
Speaker 1: don't just watch drag Race. I watch like the YouTube
Speaker 1: recaps and like conspiracy theory videos. I've rewatched every season
Speaker 1: of drag Race, like the main Drag Race and All Stars.
Speaker 1: I've rewatched all of them, like at least twice, like
Speaker 1: some of them like five ors. Like It's literally the
Speaker 1: thing that I will turn on when I'm like tired
Speaker 1: and I want to just like have a little laugh.
Speaker 1: Which comfort show. It's my comfort show. It used to
Speaker 1: be Sex in the City, but I made a vow
Speaker 1: to myself because I've watched Sex in the City more
Speaker 1: than twenty times. I made a vow to myself to
Speaker 1: stop watching sex I'm not going to watch it again
Speaker 1: until I'm Carrie in season one years old, which is
Speaker 1: thirty two because I think that show kind of like
Speaker 1: wired my brain for dating in a way that places
Speaker 1: like Fire Island have helped me get out of. But
Speaker 1: now it's Drag Race, and I'm actually trying to get
Speaker 1: out of that too, because I've like run out of
Speaker 1: Drag Race a little bit, and I like can't keep
Speaker 1: doing this to myself. But like, I'm actually so obsessed
Speaker 1: with Drag Race, and I think it's like this amazing show.
Speaker 1: I mean, like, yes, there are issues that people have
Speaker 1: pointed out that are valid in the fandom is like
Speaker 1: rot rotation, the fantom is rotted to the electric chair,
Speaker 1: but in you know, like I think, in order to
Speaker 1: watch Drag Race like sustainably, you have to actually also
Speaker 1: be like a fan of drag and like of queens
Speaker 1: who aren't on the show, and you have to support
Speaker 1: local drag, which like I actually don't do as much
Speaker 1: as I could, but I still do as much as
Speaker 1: I can. Um. The issue about supporting local drag is
Speaker 1: that like the queens to me are like Pearls before swine,
Speaker 1: Like I don't want to go to those clubs, yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: and be in community with everyone there. One can only
Speaker 1: do so much no, but I just saw Sharlene and
Speaker 1: Karnate perform at the Poetry Project twenty four hour marathon,
Speaker 1: and I love that they had drag up in the
Speaker 1: Poetry Project. Um that's how it should be. Um yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean Brooklyn Jag is really it, Like I think
Speaker 1: for New York, I'm I'm not really out in Hell's
Speaker 1: kitchen much. You're not going to industry And I don't
Speaker 1: even know if that no feet cost extra? Do you?
Speaker 1: I'm fascinated by a really good to live by. I
Speaker 1: think everyone that's that should be everyone's resolution for twenty
Speaker 1: twenty three feet cost extra. I really want to be
Speaker 1: a guest judge on Rutbaul Jager's Routpaul, if you're listening,
Speaker 1: I really really want it, Babe, that's in the cart.
Speaker 1: I think that's really matter when yeah, it's yeah, it's
Speaker 1: not an if. I I love drag. Drag is like
Speaker 1: a huge kind of inspiration for like, I'm kind of
Speaker 1: in my wig era right now. No, I'm wearing wigs
Speaker 1: and everything we love. Yeah, it's it's drags. So wait,
Speaker 1: what's your favorite season or rather maybe not favorite season,
Speaker 1: but this season you always returned to or the comfort season.
Speaker 1: The comfort season is kind of where it all began
Speaker 1: for me, which is sort of season four, I think,
Speaker 1: I mean season five has kind of emerged more recently
Speaker 1: as like this is sort of like the season, like
Speaker 1: this is kind of when it peaked. No, it's it's Jinks,
Speaker 1: and season four is Sharon, Season four is Sharon. Actually
Speaker 1: think season five is the true Girl, not just because
Speaker 1: of the queens, which are I don't think we've ever
Speaker 1: seen a season of that caliber with the casting, but
Speaker 1: also because of the storyline, like we've never had anything
Speaker 1: like Cocoa and Alyssa since Coco, and like that's why
Speaker 1: it was good. And then like Jings versus Rulaska talks
Speaker 1: like we've like we don't have that shit anymore. They're
Speaker 1: all too nice. It was like it was like biblical
Speaker 1: but totally biblical. It was it was David versus the Goliaths. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was less self perception, you know, less self editing.
Speaker 1: I'm like I but I what I also love from
Speaker 1: like really more so like the first like one, two, three,
Speaker 1: and then like four seasons, it's like they were all
Speaker 1: kind of transsexual, like like they were all like cross dressing,
Speaker 1: like they were all wearing like ready to wear they were,
Speaker 1: you know, and and I know that they can't do
Speaker 1: this anymore, but like I miss when Paul was like four,
Speaker 1: they all these new glamour girls and they're sitting on
Speaker 1: a big old secret. I know, I bring back, bring
Speaker 1: back you, like like I miss, I miss the like
Speaker 1: the lady boy jokes and the tranny jokes, since the
Speaker 1: like she's got a dick Joe and how like like
Speaker 1: like like all they could ever say on the runway
Speaker 1: is like you know, veiled versions of like she's got
Speaker 1: a dick under you. Like it's so good. I know,
Speaker 1: make drag trap again. I know, and I'm sorry, but
Speaker 1: like like the girls are gonna eat me a why
Speaker 1: for saying this? But like I you know, like as me,
Speaker 1: I do watch drag Race and like experience recognition. I like,
Speaker 1: like I do watch drag Race and experience not only recognition,
Speaker 1: but my friend Devin Diaz, who's you know, one of
Speaker 1: my favorite writers and thinkers, She's like, drag Race is
Speaker 1: such a hit with like you know, the millennial and
Speaker 1: gen Z gays because it's a microcosm of like the
Speaker 1: gay gig economy. Like RuPaul is like Intertuba. You have
Speaker 1: to do all of these like stupid things, like you
Speaker 1: have to do it all, like including like you know,
Speaker 1: market yourself as a product. And like these poor queens
Speaker 1: who are like you know, amazing makeup artists and like
Speaker 1: hair artists and like you know, lip sync artists, actresses,
Speaker 1: like they're gonna go home on a challenge where they
Speaker 1: have to sell themselves as a product and like that's
Speaker 1: not just a showbiz maybe that's America. Like this is commentary. No,
Speaker 1: I think it's really brilliant, and I agree. I just
Speaker 1: love Drag Race. I've said this on the pod before.
Speaker 1: I even though I feel like it's declined in quality,
Speaker 1: I do think that this panel of judges and Drew
Speaker 1: and Michelle specifically are just like some of the best,
Speaker 1: like the best that we can get in reality TV
Speaker 1: and reality competition doing things that are like sublime and
Speaker 1: cerebral and weird and inside jokey that you just don't
Speaker 1: see in other shows. And now it's like franchised and
Speaker 1: like you know this betham off that feels like something different,
Speaker 1: but it's still I mean, I also watch like every
Speaker 1: fucking episode. We need David Lynch as a drag race guestrate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he would. Actually, I feel like, you know, do right
Speaker 1: by the queens that I always gravitate towards, like you know,
Speaker 1: the Tammy Browns of Banina Bonina Browns, Yes of the world.
Speaker 1: Tammy Brown kind of is a Lynchian figure, absolutely, because
Speaker 1: there is there's She kind of is like a creature
Speaker 1: of Mulholland Drive, because like the sort of world of
Speaker 1: her character is this like idea of a Hollywood that
Speaker 1: doesn't exist. I'm acting right, like like the she and
Speaker 1: the magazine like it's very sunset boulevard. Wait that is
Speaker 1: can I say? Can I say? That's so? I was
Speaker 1: going to ask you when you were talking about like
Speaker 1: Greta's drag race, I was going to ask you a
Speaker 1: stupid question like what is which drag race archetype? Are
Speaker 1: you in in this? Uh? In this contest? Like are
Speaker 1: you the look queen? Are you the comedy queen? Are
Speaker 1: you like the art performance like Willow Pill Jimbo type?
Speaker 1: Like what are you giving? So certain? There's kind of
Speaker 1: like a broadness and like a an endedness too. I
Speaker 1: think a lot of the way the character some of
Speaker 1: these characters are distinguished. I don't want to give away
Speaker 1: too much, but I was asking about you personally. No, no, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: I know, but like for me, I was sort of
Speaker 1: like subliminally and like behind the scenes and what they
Speaker 1: wanted to do with my character knowing, you know, frankly,
Speaker 1: like they said, we want to use kind of like
Speaker 1: what you're known for. So I'm kind of the look
Speaker 1: Queen love. That's what we need, thats what we need. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've I've got a lot of costumes. I thought a
Speaker 1: lot of them in their crazy and I actually kind
Speaker 1: of helped design some of them. That's maybe that's fine,
Speaker 1: not like design design, but like you know, I made
Speaker 1: some I made color choices, I said, maybe that, you know,
Speaker 1: it was fun, it was a clever I even you know,
Speaker 1: helped call in some designer pulls as well. Yeah. No,
Speaker 1: the power of the international implications of that. Oh listen.
Speaker 1: If if there's one like bonus thing I can bring
Speaker 1: to a film production, it's clothes. I've done that for
Speaker 1: every film that I've done in the past couple of years. Um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's this film that hasn't even been
Speaker 1: announced yet that I shot before Barbie that I think
Speaker 1: is going to be playing a festival later this year,
Speaker 1: and um, you know I called in looks for that. Um, okay,
Speaker 1: so you are the look queen. I am, I'm the
Speaker 1: elusive Shantus and you're in your wig era, your Rita
Speaker 1: when she puts on the blonde wig. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: we haven't even talked about the like blonde brunette thing,
Speaker 1: which is so important, so important, truly, it's it's the movie,
Speaker 1: it's thematically, you know, that's the engine. And now you're
Speaker 1: a redhead. Yeah. I wonder why. I wonder why. What
Speaker 1: could have prompted that decision? When did I go red?
Speaker 1: What was I doing at the time? Connecting the dots?
Speaker 1: But you are now an iconic redhead? I feel really,
Speaker 1: I mean I am again, I only am saying it
Speaker 1: didn't feel iconic. Yeah, thank you. Yeah, I think I'm
Speaker 1: going to keep it for a second because it's just
Speaker 1: going to keep popping up. And like, I don't know
Speaker 1: when I went red, the demon came out. I went
Speaker 1: red right before that Fire Island summer, and girl, the
Speaker 1: demon the demon is quite frankly still out. The demon
Speaker 1: is subdued by eight shows a week and not having
Speaker 1: any energy to do anything other than have sex in
Speaker 1: an office stairwell for like ten minutes. But um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm so flattered that you think I'm elusive because I
Speaker 1: don't feel that way, and I I'm like yeah, because
Speaker 1: I'm I'm like, I'm extrovert. I'm an over sure and
Speaker 1: it takes a lot of restraint not to just like
Speaker 1: shit post all the time. Both Irl and Urel, well,
Speaker 1: you seem to have um mastered it. I mean, virgins
Speaker 1: you can't tell, but I mean there's not even a
Speaker 1: person in here in the room. It's just like a
Speaker 1: shifting shimmering that's kind of like a rip in the
Speaker 1: fabric of the universe, has red hair on top, and
Speaker 1: it's just a If you liked this episode with Harry,
Speaker 1: you are in luck, babe, because there's more. We cut
Speaker 1: a little bit from this conversation and put it on
Speaker 1: our Patreon as part of an exclusive bonus episode, and
Speaker 1: you can get access to that, as well as weekly
Speaker 1: bonus episodes and lots of other fun content by going
Speaker 1: to patreon dot com slash like a Virgin and becoming
Speaker 1: one of the founding members of our Patreon for only
Speaker 1: five dollars a month. That's a deal, babe. Slide into
Speaker 1: our dms and let us know what's your favorite David
Speaker 1: Lynch movie, what's your favorite season of drag Race? And
Speaker 1: go to Like a Virgin four twenty sixty nine dot
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Speaker 1: but like Rose and I are are wearing the hat.
Speaker 1: We're very QBC trying on the mallgoth hoodie. Okay, holding
Speaker 1: up our Galadriel tone look sickening, nickening. Also make sure
Speaker 1: that you're following us on Instagram at Like a Virgin
Speaker 1: four twenty sixty nine. I'm your co host Rosdamu. You
Speaker 1: can follow me anywhere you want at Rosdamu and I'm
Speaker 1: France Ratta. You can find me at France squishco. And
Speaker 1: please give us five stars on Spotify, rate and review us,
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Speaker 1: a Virgin is an iHeartRadio production. Our producers Phoebe and
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Speaker 1: Bye h