1 00:00:06,790 --> 00:00:10,690 Speaker 1: Amy Robach and TJ Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host, 2 00:00:10,869 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: Alisa Donovan. Welcome back to Killer Thriller. 3 00:00:17,340 --> 00:00:20,820 Speaker 2: We are continuing our conversation with Denise Brown, sister of 4 00:00:20,860 --> 00:00:23,740 Speaker 2: Nicole Brown Simpson and author of the new book on 5 00:00:23,820 --> 00:00:28,140 Speaker 2: sale now, For My Sister Nicole, Love Shouldn't Hurt, What 6 00:00:28,180 --> 00:00:32,620 Speaker 2: to Know About Domestic Violence. You discover that Nicole called 7 00:00:32,700 --> 00:00:36,130 Speaker 2: a shelter just five days before she was murdered and 8 00:00:36,940 --> 00:00:39,820 Speaker 2: How did you find that out? And can you talk 9 00:00:39,880 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 2: about how turning to a shelter, essentially strangers, might seem 10 00:00:45,100 --> 00:00:48,559 Speaker 2: more palatable than calling a supportive family? 11 00:00:48,580 --> 00:00:54,310 Speaker 3: I found out in court. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I 12 00:00:54,350 --> 00:00:56,330 Speaker 3: found out in court that she had called a shelter 13 00:00:56,350 --> 00:00:57,970 Speaker 3: because they called them up on the stand and they 14 00:00:58,010 --> 00:01:03,490 Speaker 3: wouldn't talk. And I was really, really, really angry because 15 00:01:03,580 --> 00:01:07,500 Speaker 3: I thought, How could you not tell them what my sister, 16 00:01:07,520 --> 00:01:10,180 Speaker 3: what happened to my sister or what she said to you? 17 00:01:11,100 --> 00:01:15,020 Speaker 3: And then I, once I started learning about it, I understood, 18 00:01:15,100 --> 00:01:18,700 Speaker 3: but this took years to understand that they are there 19 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:22,560 Speaker 3: to protect the other victims that are our clients that 20 00:01:22,580 --> 00:01:25,899 Speaker 3: they call them there that are in the shelter. Because 21 00:01:26,040 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 3: if they start talking about Nicole per se, they have 22 00:01:30,100 --> 00:01:33,920 Speaker 3: to open up and let their books be shown about everybody. 23 00:01:34,560 --> 00:01:37,340 Speaker 3: And I never understood that. That's why I got so angry. 24 00:01:37,380 --> 00:01:40,080 Speaker 3: And I just thought, oh, my God, they're awful. I 25 00:01:40,100 --> 00:01:41,060 Speaker 3: would never call them. 26 00:01:42,050 --> 00:01:43,310 Speaker 1: Right, right, right. 27 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:48,570 Speaker 3: But I understand it now. Yeah. But as a sister 28 00:01:48,670 --> 00:01:53,190 Speaker 3: to someone that was murdered. Of course. I didn't understand 29 00:01:53,230 --> 00:01:54,160 Speaker 3: it at all. 30 00:01:54,590 --> 00:01:55,020 Speaker 1: Of course. 31 00:01:56,460 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 2: One of the most disturbing scenes in your book is 32 00:01:59,500 --> 00:02:02,300 Speaker 2: your account of seeing OJ put his hands around. 33 00:02:02,140 --> 00:02:07,470 Speaker 1: Nicole's throat and lift her. her off the ground. It's 34 00:02:07,490 --> 00:02:11,270 Speaker 1: a lot to metabolize. What do you remember about that moment? 35 00:02:12,430 --> 00:02:16,620 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, every detail, every single detail. That is 36 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:19,520 Speaker 3: something that is so ingrained in my brain that I 37 00:02:19,580 --> 00:02:24,300 Speaker 3: cannot forget it. I mean, it was, it was, God, 38 00:02:24,340 --> 00:02:27,890 Speaker 3: we had such a fun night. a fun night that we, 39 00:02:28,230 --> 00:02:30,769 Speaker 3: you know, you go and you eat Mexican food and 40 00:02:30,790 --> 00:02:33,510 Speaker 3: you're drinking to keep while you're drinking the margaritas and 41 00:02:33,530 --> 00:02:36,869 Speaker 3: you're having a great time and everything's fun. Uh, we 42 00:02:36,910 --> 00:02:41,109 Speaker 3: go back to Rockingham. He's making more margaritas and we're 43 00:02:41,190 --> 00:02:43,910 Speaker 3: all sitting around the bar, having a great time. And 44 00:02:43,930 --> 00:02:45,750 Speaker 3: then all of a sudden he says, Nicole, go get 45 00:02:45,790 --> 00:02:48,470 Speaker 3: some food. I go, Oh my God. I said, we 46 00:02:48,490 --> 00:02:50,430 Speaker 3: just ate. I said, what do you, what do we 47 00:02:50,450 --> 00:02:53,750 Speaker 3: need more food for? Nicole, go get some more food. 48 00:02:53,770 --> 00:02:58,130 Speaker 3: I'm so glad you see, I don't know why I 49 00:02:58,150 --> 00:03:01,950 Speaker 3: can't keep my mouth shut. But anyhow, I said, why 50 00:03:01,970 --> 00:03:04,850 Speaker 3: do you take her? You take my sister so for granted. 51 00:03:04,950 --> 00:03:09,070 Speaker 3: She does everything for you. Okay. Denise had to open 52 00:03:09,110 --> 00:03:14,510 Speaker 3: her mouth. Well, this is when he came around the bar. 53 00:03:15,410 --> 00:03:17,820 Speaker 3: And I thought, what in the world is he doing? 54 00:03:18,500 --> 00:03:21,600 Speaker 3: And I saw dark black eyes. I saw veins popping 55 00:03:21,620 --> 00:03:24,540 Speaker 3: out of his head. I just thought, oh, my God. 56 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:29,410 Speaker 3: He ran up the stairs. started throwing pictures down into 57 00:03:29,440 --> 00:03:33,169 Speaker 3: the foyer, not pictures of his family, pictures of our family. 58 00:03:34,470 --> 00:03:38,010 Speaker 3: And he runs into the bedroom, takes her clothes, throws 59 00:03:38,290 --> 00:03:42,630 Speaker 3: them into the foyer, shoes, jackets, hangers, everything. All of 60 00:03:42,670 --> 00:03:45,350 Speaker 3: a sudden he comes running back down. He sees Nicole, 61 00:03:45,370 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 3: he grabs her by the throat and he has her 62 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:51,980 Speaker 3: six inches off the ground. And I am sitting there 63 00:03:52,100 --> 00:03:55,690 Speaker 3: watching this and he is just black eyes. And I 64 00:03:55,750 --> 00:03:57,850 Speaker 3: am going over there and I'm pounding on him as 65 00:03:57,910 --> 00:04:02,110 Speaker 3: hard as I can and crying and screaming. And finally, 66 00:04:02,150 --> 00:04:05,869 Speaker 3: he released her. And he took her by the arms 67 00:04:06,030 --> 00:04:08,970 Speaker 3: and he threw her outside and she was all bloody, 68 00:04:09,030 --> 00:04:12,940 Speaker 3: her elbows. And she landed on her butt. And then 69 00:04:12,980 --> 00:04:15,440 Speaker 3: he came, grabbed me, threw me out of the door. 70 00:04:15,740 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 3: But I didn't fall down. And I just said, we're 71 00:04:19,820 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 3: out of here. I grabbed Nicole and I took her. 72 00:04:22,660 --> 00:04:24,790 Speaker 3: I took her out. And we spent the night at 73 00:04:24,850 --> 00:04:26,910 Speaker 3: a hotel because a friend of ours that was with us, 74 00:04:27,850 --> 00:04:30,810 Speaker 3: he ended up, he was at the Beverly Hills Hotel. 75 00:04:31,190 --> 00:04:34,310 Speaker 3: So we ended up taking Nicole there. And the next 76 00:04:34,330 --> 00:04:36,100 Speaker 3: day she said, Denise, I have to go back and 77 00:04:36,140 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 3: get some clothes. I said, okay. I said, I'm going 78 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 3: with you. And she said, no, she goes, don't even 79 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:43,820 Speaker 3: worry about it. She goes, he's not going to be 80 00:04:43,860 --> 00:04:46,820 Speaker 3: there anyway. And I said, no, no, no, I'm going 81 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,710 Speaker 3: to go. And she said, she goes, Denise, I'll be 82 00:04:49,730 --> 00:04:53,450 Speaker 3: gone like maximum two hours. You know, I'll go there, 83 00:04:53,510 --> 00:04:56,710 Speaker 3: pick up some stuff, and I'll be back. I said, okay. 84 00:04:57,910 --> 00:05:03,570 Speaker 3: And she goes, one hour, two hours, three hours. I 85 00:05:03,680 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 3: finally get on the phone. Remember, we didn't have cell 86 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:09,780 Speaker 3: phones at the time. And I call the home phone. 87 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:14,679 Speaker 3: She picks up the phone. And she goes, oh, Denise. 88 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:18,310 Speaker 3: I said, Nicole. I said, what's up? And she goes, oh, 89 00:05:18,430 --> 00:05:22,479 Speaker 3: everything's okay. Okay. I said, what do you mean everything's okay? 90 00:05:23,500 --> 00:05:26,750 Speaker 3: And she says, oh, we talked and everything's okay. Things 91 00:05:26,790 --> 00:05:31,130 Speaker 3: just got out of hand. We drank too much, whatever. Well, 92 00:05:31,510 --> 00:05:38,170 Speaker 3: after that, I got to thinking, looking back in hindsight, 93 00:05:38,490 --> 00:05:42,690 Speaker 3: not after the event, I looked back and I thought, oh, 94 00:05:42,730 --> 00:05:47,940 Speaker 3: my God, I caused this. This was my fault. This 95 00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,270 Speaker 3: was my fault for opening up my mouth and saying 96 00:05:52,310 --> 00:05:57,610 Speaker 3: he took her for granted. And then I realized after 97 00:05:57,670 --> 00:06:01,270 Speaker 3: I started learning about domestic violence, it's not my fault. 98 00:06:01,589 --> 00:06:08,150 Speaker 3: It's not Nicole's fault. He is the asshole. Yes. He 99 00:06:08,180 --> 00:06:13,979 Speaker 3: is the one that is, he's the batterer. He's the narcissist. 100 00:06:14,380 --> 00:06:17,320 Speaker 3: He's the evil one. He is the monster. 101 00:06:17,760 --> 00:06:19,250 Speaker 1: It's so insidious. 102 00:06:19,529 --> 00:06:23,990 Speaker 2: And it's so important for people to understand this. You 103 00:06:24,070 --> 00:06:30,470 Speaker 2: are both intelligent, well-rounded, strong women that have a great family. 104 00:06:30,770 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: And you could still start to think that, oh, I 105 00:06:35,700 --> 00:06:36,420 Speaker 1: caused this. 106 00:06:37,260 --> 00:06:41,900 Speaker 2: It's so important for people to understand that. 107 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:48,240 Speaker 3: It's nobody's fault except the monster that's inflicting this pain. 108 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:50,920 Speaker 3: That's right. That's the only person whose fault it is. 109 00:06:51,540 --> 00:06:56,349 Speaker 2: After the National Enquirer posted the photos of Nicole with 110 00:06:56,390 --> 00:07:01,910 Speaker 2: the bruises and OJ still had no real repercussions, what 111 00:07:02,029 --> 00:07:03,250 Speaker 2: did you think about that? 112 00:07:03,350 --> 00:07:06,570 Speaker 1: How did it feel to see no public. 113 00:07:06,350 --> 00:07:10,070 Speaker 2: Outcry for Nicole and only praise for OJ and sort 114 00:07:10,110 --> 00:07:11,010 Speaker 2: of his new job? 115 00:07:11,510 --> 00:07:13,530 Speaker 1: It's kind of inconceivable today. 116 00:07:14,590 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 3: Well, today it would not happen. You got to remember 117 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 3: this was 32 years ago. No longer than that. 32 118 00:07:22,280 --> 00:07:26,900 Speaker 3: years since she was murdered. It was before that. So 119 00:07:27,000 --> 00:07:32,330 Speaker 3: you have to really look back and think, wow, there 120 00:07:32,390 --> 00:07:37,350 Speaker 3: was no outcry then. Everybody put him up on a pedestal. 121 00:07:37,790 --> 00:07:41,270 Speaker 3: He could do no wrong. And even when he made 122 00:07:41,490 --> 00:07:45,040 Speaker 3: light of it, I guess in an interview or when 123 00:07:45,060 --> 00:07:48,040 Speaker 3: he first, the first day of his new job as 124 00:07:48,080 --> 00:07:51,320 Speaker 3: an analyst, he made light of it and said, ah, 125 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 3: we just had a fight. You know, they blew it 126 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:55,900 Speaker 3: all out of proportion and everybody was like, okay with it. 127 00:07:56,750 --> 00:07:58,930 Speaker 3: But see, this is where I sit there and I think, 128 00:08:00,050 --> 00:08:03,430 Speaker 3: and this is so hard for me to say, because 129 00:08:04,530 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 3: I truly believe that Nicole had no way out. I 130 00:08:11,320 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 3: think that Nicole was put on this earth to be 131 00:08:16,020 --> 00:08:23,410 Speaker 3: that base of domestic violence because, well, so many wonderful 132 00:08:23,450 --> 00:08:29,270 Speaker 3: things happened after that. And he was so loved that 133 00:08:29,350 --> 00:08:33,750 Speaker 3: nobody did anything. And how many times do they have 134 00:08:33,790 --> 00:08:35,530 Speaker 3: to be, the police have to be called to the 135 00:08:35,570 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 3: house in order for them to even do something. He 136 00:08:38,340 --> 00:08:40,459 Speaker 3: even said it in his own words. Hey, you guys 137 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:42,670 Speaker 3: have been out here eight times and you've never done anything. 138 00:08:42,690 --> 00:08:46,750 Speaker 3: This is the family matter, you know? And so I 139 00:08:46,809 --> 00:08:49,930 Speaker 3: sit there and I just think, gosh, if people just 140 00:08:50,290 --> 00:08:55,010 Speaker 3: wouldn't put people that can throw a ball, hit a ball, run, 141 00:08:55,550 --> 00:08:58,050 Speaker 3: do all that stuff, put these people that they don't 142 00:08:58,100 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 3: know up on a pedestal. Yes. Think that they do 143 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 3: wonderful at the sport that they're doing. but don't put 144 00:09:05,220 --> 00:09:07,439 Speaker 3: them up on a pedestal that they're above the law, 145 00:09:08,179 --> 00:09:12,570 Speaker 3: that they are, you know, like these wonderful human beings. 146 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:15,230 Speaker 3: They may be good at throwing a ball or shooting 147 00:09:15,270 --> 00:09:18,630 Speaker 3: a basket. It doesn't make them a good human being. No, 148 00:09:18,650 --> 00:09:21,550 Speaker 3: it doesn't make them a good person. That's right. So 149 00:09:22,130 --> 00:09:26,220 Speaker 3: that's the hardest thing for me to come to the realization, 150 00:09:26,300 --> 00:09:33,510 Speaker 3: but knowing after Nicole's murder, that the Violence Against Women 151 00:09:33,600 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 3: Act was signed into law three months after Nicole's murder. 152 00:09:39,000 --> 00:09:43,099 Speaker 3: And then a year later, the 24-hour National Domestic Violence 153 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:47,179 Speaker 3: Hotline was put into place. The bill was signed into 154 00:09:47,220 --> 00:09:51,750 Speaker 3: law by President Bill Clinton. The National Domestic Violence Hotline 155 00:09:52,290 --> 00:09:56,530 Speaker 3: was done because of the Violence Against Women Act and 156 00:09:56,610 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 3: funding that President Joe Biden, Senator, at the time did 157 00:10:01,820 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 3: the violence against women act when i went to congress 158 00:10:05,240 --> 00:10:08,819 Speaker 3: and i spoke out about it they increased the funding 159 00:10:08,940 --> 00:10:11,210 Speaker 3: and this is something that i am truly proud of 160 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:14,490 Speaker 3: because they increased the funding from 18 million to 32 161 00:10:14,490 --> 00:10:19,489 Speaker 3: million dollars so that they could start funding programs. 162 00:10:19,790 --> 00:10:21,070 Speaker 1: That is incredible. 163 00:10:22,670 --> 00:10:27,880 Speaker 3: That was something that, yeah, I'll, I'm, yeah, that's something 164 00:10:27,890 --> 00:10:29,360 Speaker 3: I'm very, very proud of. 165 00:10:29,700 --> 00:10:31,780 Speaker 2: You know, I talk about this a lot on this 166 00:10:32,580 --> 00:10:36,660 Speaker 2: podcast about how, sorry. 167 00:10:37,820 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 3: No. 168 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:39,959 Speaker 2: I don't know how, like, I don't know how you 169 00:10:39,980 --> 00:10:42,040 Speaker 2: do this. I really don't know how you're doing this. 170 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 2: because it's very hard for me to do this interview 171 00:10:45,780 --> 00:10:49,150 Speaker 2: and I just don't know how I'm, I'm in awe 172 00:10:49,230 --> 00:10:49,830 Speaker 2: of you is. 173 00:10:49,750 --> 00:10:50,510 Speaker 1: What I want to say. 174 00:10:50,530 --> 00:10:53,250 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, thank you. 175 00:10:54,010 --> 00:10:58,090 Speaker 2: You know, you say it feel like, no, Nicole was 176 00:10:58,530 --> 00:11:01,130 Speaker 2: kind of, that became her, her legacy, like she was 177 00:11:01,170 --> 00:11:02,930 Speaker 2: put on this earth to be the face of this. 178 00:11:03,080 --> 00:11:08,540 Speaker 2: And I, you know, you also, you, this was not 179 00:11:08,580 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 2: the plan for your life and you, you, chose to 180 00:11:15,220 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 2: make this have meaning and to answer the call of 181 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:22,340 Speaker 2: your life, so to speak. And I just feel like 182 00:11:22,400 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 2: that is, it's so admirable. It's so impressive. I just, 183 00:11:29,360 --> 00:11:32,250 Speaker 2: I think like I'm very, very moved by that. So 184 00:11:33,790 --> 00:11:36,010 Speaker 2: we all as a culture, thank you. 185 00:11:36,450 --> 00:11:38,229 Speaker 3: It is moving mountains to try to change policy. 186 00:11:41,710 --> 00:11:45,230 Speaker 2: Anybody that has in any way tried to do that 187 00:11:45,290 --> 00:11:51,510 Speaker 2: understands that. So what you did is, is just phenomenal. 188 00:11:52,990 --> 00:11:57,089 Speaker 3: Well, I feel like Nicole's not here any longer. And 189 00:11:58,030 --> 00:12:03,209 Speaker 3: ever since she was yay big, you know, I was 190 00:12:03,390 --> 00:12:08,150 Speaker 3: always there protecting her in a baby carriage. My mother 191 00:12:08,250 --> 00:12:11,349 Speaker 3: used to tell me stories, Hey, you would stand in 192 00:12:11,590 --> 00:12:15,100 Speaker 3: between people and Nicole because you said, no, no, no, 193 00:12:15,130 --> 00:12:18,860 Speaker 3: you can't touch her. So I always felt like I 194 00:12:18,920 --> 00:12:24,079 Speaker 3: was there to protect her. And then when all of 195 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:27,140 Speaker 3: this happened, I felt the need to protect my family 196 00:12:27,900 --> 00:12:31,590 Speaker 3: because there was so much ugly and so many ugly 197 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:34,970 Speaker 3: things were happening. And I felt the need to protect 198 00:12:35,030 --> 00:12:39,170 Speaker 3: them too. And I don't know why I took on 199 00:12:39,210 --> 00:12:43,100 Speaker 3: that role. And I just, it just kind of happened. 200 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,119 Speaker 3: But I felt like I had nothing to lose. I 201 00:12:46,140 --> 00:12:49,339 Speaker 3: had already lost everything. I had lost my best friend. 202 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,540 Speaker 3: I lost my sister in the most horrific way. And 203 00:12:53,570 --> 00:12:56,990 Speaker 3: I just think that, you know, going forward and moving 204 00:12:57,090 --> 00:13:01,350 Speaker 3: forward was the least thing I could do to help her, 205 00:13:01,510 --> 00:13:04,660 Speaker 3: to protect her. To protect her when they were talking 206 00:13:04,740 --> 00:13:09,260 Speaker 3: such ugly stories about her. And I thought, you know, Denise, 207 00:13:09,300 --> 00:13:13,050 Speaker 3: you have nothing to lose. It's like, get out there 208 00:13:13,350 --> 00:13:19,250 Speaker 3: and protect your sister. Yeah. And so that's how the 209 00:13:19,290 --> 00:13:25,530 Speaker 3: whole journey started. And, you know, I mean, when this 210 00:13:25,550 --> 00:13:27,290 Speaker 3: whole thing started, I thought I was going to throw 211 00:13:27,350 --> 00:13:30,319 Speaker 3: up the first time I had to speak. I was 212 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:34,590 Speaker 3: not a speaker. So, you know, over the years, I 213 00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:38,050 Speaker 3: have grown. And I did realize that, hey, this is 214 00:13:38,070 --> 00:13:41,690 Speaker 3: not a grade for me. This is for Nicole. And 215 00:13:41,730 --> 00:13:46,210 Speaker 3: now it's for everyone else out there that needs help. Right. 216 00:13:47,160 --> 00:13:50,620 Speaker 2: Another very, very moving part of the book that after 217 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:54,340 Speaker 2: Nicole died, your family discovered the writings in which she 218 00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:58,820 Speaker 2: had documented abuse that you knew nothing about. And there's 219 00:13:58,840 --> 00:14:03,020 Speaker 2: just a devastating scene where your father is reading Nicole's journals. 220 00:14:04,090 --> 00:14:08,370 Speaker 2: And what do you remember about watching him realize what 221 00:14:08,410 --> 00:14:10,950 Speaker 2: his daughter had been living through while at the same 222 00:14:11,010 --> 00:14:13,449 Speaker 2: time you're handling your own grief? 223 00:14:14,340 --> 00:14:16,980 Speaker 3: When I, he called me back to his bedroom and 224 00:14:17,100 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 3: he said, Denise, he goes, take a look at this. 225 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,490 Speaker 3: And I started looking and I started reading and I said, 226 00:14:22,570 --> 00:14:26,570 Speaker 3: Oh my God. I said, we were there. We were there. 227 00:14:26,590 --> 00:14:28,730 Speaker 1: Oh my God. 228 00:14:28,830 --> 00:14:33,770 Speaker 3: Why didn't she tell us? And then I just took 229 00:14:33,790 --> 00:14:36,479 Speaker 3: them and I threw them down on the bed and 230 00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 3: I left the room and I came back and my 231 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,979 Speaker 3: dad was still reading the diaries. And I thought, Oh, 232 00:14:44,210 --> 00:14:47,850 Speaker 3: I was like, oh my gosh. And I just saw him. 233 00:14:47,870 --> 00:14:52,230 Speaker 4: It kind of reminded me of when I was up 234 00:14:52,330 --> 00:15:00,150 Speaker 4: on the stand and I was being asked questions and 235 00:15:00,220 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 4: I saw my dad crying in the courtroom. And this 236 00:15:04,740 --> 00:15:09,910 Speaker 4: reminded me so of that because he was like, I 237 00:15:09,930 --> 00:15:11,980 Speaker 4: don't know. I mean, it was just like, he was 238 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 4: just looked so defeated and just looked so rushed and 239 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:23,300 Speaker 4: not understanding what the hell he was reading and why 240 00:15:23,490 --> 00:15:24,950 Speaker 4: all of this stuff was happening. 241 00:15:25,190 --> 00:15:29,630 Speaker 3: And that was before we started understanding what that why 242 00:15:29,730 --> 00:15:32,310 Speaker 3: question was. Right. Right. 243 00:15:32,410 --> 00:15:38,100 Speaker 2: You know, it's, it's very upsetting to see a parent, upset. 244 00:15:38,370 --> 00:15:41,470 Speaker 2: You know, it's like the ultimate feeling of helplessness, I think. 245 00:15:42,190 --> 00:15:45,250 Speaker 3: It is, you know, it really truly is. 246 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,980 Speaker 2: So you, you remember telling Nicole that she needed to 247 00:16:03,010 --> 00:16:05,580 Speaker 2: get away from OJ and Nicole telling you that she 248 00:16:05,600 --> 00:16:08,940 Speaker 2: didn't want to ruin his career or his reputation and 249 00:16:09,300 --> 00:16:11,540 Speaker 2: saying things like, I can't do that to my children. 250 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: How much did protecting her children keep her in that relationship? 251 00:16:17,180 --> 00:16:19,860 Speaker 3: Do you think? I think a lot because Nicole always 252 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:23,780 Speaker 3: wanted the white picket fence. She always wanted a family 253 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:28,120 Speaker 3: and she had two kids. She had a husband. She 254 00:16:29,480 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 3: wanted to make it work. She always wanted that. So 255 00:16:34,060 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 3: I think it meant a lot to her to tell me, hey, Denise, 256 00:16:37,780 --> 00:16:40,260 Speaker 3: she goes, I am not going to ruin his career. 257 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,180 Speaker 3: I'm not going to ruin his life. He is the 258 00:16:44,260 --> 00:16:48,290 Speaker 3: father of my children. And I'm like, well, you don't 259 00:16:48,330 --> 00:16:52,790 Speaker 3: have to ruin his career or his life leaving him. 260 00:16:53,970 --> 00:16:56,570 Speaker 3: But she felt that that's exactly what it would be. 261 00:16:57,030 --> 00:17:00,900 Speaker 3: It would be ruining his life. Or now looking back, 262 00:17:01,830 --> 00:17:05,629 Speaker 3: maybe she felt like he would take custody of the 263 00:17:05,670 --> 00:17:11,399 Speaker 3: children or threaten to hurt the family or because a 264 00:17:11,440 --> 00:17:16,140 Speaker 3: lot of abusers do things like that, right? So what 265 00:17:16,220 --> 00:17:18,520 Speaker 3: was going on in her mind when she said that? 266 00:17:19,160 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 3: I took her for her word, but there could have 267 00:17:21,780 --> 00:17:25,070 Speaker 3: been so many things in the back of her mind, 268 00:17:25,490 --> 00:17:27,830 Speaker 3: you know, because a victim is the only one that 269 00:17:27,890 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 3: knows how really horrific things as horrible and evil an 270 00:17:32,820 --> 00:17:34,140 Speaker 3: abuser can be. Yeah. 271 00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:36,419 Speaker 1: I think about that, the amount of. 272 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:42,109 Speaker 2: It just has to be so all-encompassing and the things 273 00:17:42,170 --> 00:17:46,050 Speaker 2: that she's constantly having to do, aside from the basics 274 00:17:46,090 --> 00:17:48,290 Speaker 2: of life, of taking care of her children and herself 275 00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:52,780 Speaker 2: and things, that constant having to protect herself, having to 276 00:17:53,940 --> 00:17:56,480 Speaker 2: create a reality that is different than what it really is, 277 00:17:56,800 --> 00:18:01,149 Speaker 2: and that fear... It's just it has to be exhausting 278 00:18:01,190 --> 00:18:02,670 Speaker 2: beyond comprehension. 279 00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:03,820 Speaker 1: Yeah. 280 00:18:03,930 --> 00:18:06,500 Speaker 3: And, you know, when you look at her, you would 281 00:18:06,520 --> 00:18:10,920 Speaker 3: have never known. Right. She hit it so well. And 282 00:18:11,260 --> 00:18:14,660 Speaker 3: she was just a beautiful woman. She was she was 283 00:18:14,700 --> 00:18:17,220 Speaker 3: a beautiful girl. She was a beautiful baby. I mean, 284 00:18:17,260 --> 00:18:22,169 Speaker 3: she was she just radiated beauty. And she was one 285 00:18:22,210 --> 00:18:25,520 Speaker 3: that could get herself together. She could be gardening in 286 00:18:25,540 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 3: the backyard and all dirty or playing with the kids. 287 00:18:28,820 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 3: And half hour later, she'd be ready for a black 288 00:18:30,859 --> 00:18:36,139 Speaker 3: tie event. Right. I mean, she was really a remarkable woman. 289 00:18:37,060 --> 00:18:42,609 Speaker 3: And so it's just so sad for me. It's so sad. 290 00:18:43,320 --> 00:18:48,580 Speaker 3: You know, I just wish that she could have just 291 00:18:48,660 --> 00:18:53,090 Speaker 3: seen how her kids grew up, how, you know, like 292 00:18:53,170 --> 00:18:57,590 Speaker 3: seeing them graduate, see them, you know, experience life, be 293 00:18:57,630 --> 00:19:01,130 Speaker 3: there for them. I mean, she missed so much. She 294 00:19:01,170 --> 00:19:08,300 Speaker 3: missed graduation. She missed, she missed everything, you know? I mean, 295 00:19:09,740 --> 00:19:12,480 Speaker 3: she just missed their whole life. They were babies. 296 00:19:13,200 --> 00:19:13,580 Speaker 4: Yeah. 297 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:22,330 Speaker 2: Um, On New Year's Day in 1989, Nicole called the 298 00:19:22,369 --> 00:19:26,830 Speaker 2: police after OJ assaulted her, and he ultimately pleaded no 299 00:19:26,890 --> 00:19:28,810 Speaker 2: contest to spousal battery. 300 00:19:30,270 --> 00:19:31,649 Speaker 1: Do you see that. 301 00:19:31,570 --> 00:19:35,630 Speaker 2: As a moment when authorities had a real opportunity to intervene? 302 00:19:35,650 --> 00:19:39,560 Speaker 3: I don't know if we had lots back then. What 303 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:41,820 Speaker 3: kind of laws did we have besides a law enforcement 304 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 3: officer coming over to the house and saying, take a 305 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 3: walk around the block and cool off? Those were the 306 00:19:48,070 --> 00:19:48,850 Speaker 3: laws back then. 307 00:19:49,150 --> 00:19:49,970 Speaker 1: This is like the equipment. 308 00:19:50,350 --> 00:19:53,850 Speaker 2: Of write an essay after you've brutally gang raped a 309 00:19:53,890 --> 00:19:56,490 Speaker 2: woman don't even get me started. 310 00:19:56,450 --> 00:20:02,000 Speaker 3: Don't even get me started no that yeah exactly and 311 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:07,660 Speaker 3: you know for him to plead no contest and get 312 00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:11,899 Speaker 3: a slap on the wrist Use whatever kind of therapist 313 00:20:11,940 --> 00:20:16,980 Speaker 3: he wants to. Call them twice. I can't believe somebody 314 00:20:17,030 --> 00:20:20,750 Speaker 3: had mentioned something about a year of counseling. Yeah, I 315 00:20:20,790 --> 00:20:25,709 Speaker 3: don't think so. I don't think so. I honestly don't 316 00:20:25,750 --> 00:20:28,070 Speaker 3: believe it. I heard that there was two times he 317 00:20:28,090 --> 00:20:31,950 Speaker 3: called them and it was a therapist of his choosing. And, 318 00:20:32,730 --> 00:20:36,030 Speaker 3: you know, I just think that, well, can I just 319 00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:40,570 Speaker 3: tell you one thing that I'm really, really excited about? Yes. Okay, 320 00:20:40,609 --> 00:20:45,750 Speaker 3: talking about restraining orders. And there is a Carrie's Law 321 00:20:45,890 --> 00:20:50,330 Speaker 3: in Connecticut. A woman contacted me. And what they are 322 00:20:50,390 --> 00:20:55,310 Speaker 3: trying to do now, and they're getting some traction, is 323 00:20:55,590 --> 00:21:04,010 Speaker 3: getting a law passed for GPS, an ankle monitor for perpetrators, 324 00:21:04,109 --> 00:21:08,130 Speaker 3: instead of just that piece of paper of a restraining order. 325 00:21:08,960 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 3: actually monitor their every move. Now, how great would that be? 326 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:15,020 Speaker 2: Great. 327 00:21:15,680 --> 00:21:18,939 Speaker 3: Yeah. Because then, okay, the restraining order says you have 328 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:20,100 Speaker 3: to stay 100 yards away. 329 00:21:20,560 --> 00:21:24,000 Speaker 2: It will reveal stalking. It will prevent stalking. 330 00:21:24,340 --> 00:21:29,660 Speaker 3: Right. And it'll prevent murders because oftentimes that little piece 331 00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 3: of paper, they could still be hiding behind your closet 332 00:21:32,760 --> 00:21:36,780 Speaker 3: if they get in your door. And that's how a 333 00:21:36,859 --> 00:21:40,159 Speaker 3: lot of laws initially have changed. But why do we 334 00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:44,379 Speaker 3: have to have a murder before something is actually really done? 335 00:21:44,820 --> 00:21:50,480 Speaker 3: So I think the GPS, the ankle monitors, if you're 336 00:21:50,530 --> 00:21:54,550 Speaker 3: convicted of domestic violence and you need a restraining order, 337 00:21:55,550 --> 00:21:58,590 Speaker 3: even for a week, two weeks before you go to trial, 338 00:21:59,290 --> 00:22:03,930 Speaker 3: stick that ankle monitor on that perpetrator and just so 339 00:22:03,970 --> 00:22:07,790 Speaker 3: that you could make sure that this woman stays alive. Yes. 340 00:22:09,109 --> 00:22:11,970 Speaker 3: I love it. And this is happening in Connecticut. So 341 00:22:12,230 --> 00:22:15,850 Speaker 3: I am backing that. I am thrilled about that. I 342 00:22:15,890 --> 00:22:17,470 Speaker 3: think it's absolutely wonderful. 343 00:22:17,930 --> 00:22:20,740 Speaker 1: Yeah, me too. 344 00:22:20,770 --> 00:22:24,610 Speaker 2: Going back to 89, after that attack, Nicole asked you 345 00:22:24,630 --> 00:22:28,370 Speaker 2: to photograph her injuries because she wanted to keep a record. 346 00:22:28,570 --> 00:22:32,330 Speaker 2: And those photos were later found in her safe deposit box. 347 00:22:33,220 --> 00:22:37,750 Speaker 2: And you talk about Nicole's planning while minimizing, which I 348 00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:40,730 Speaker 2: think is such a great term by having you take 349 00:22:40,770 --> 00:22:44,170 Speaker 2: these photos of her bruises, but saying she'd take them to, 350 00:22:44,250 --> 00:22:47,590 Speaker 2: you know, the discreet photo lab and not really, they're 351 00:22:47,609 --> 00:22:49,730 Speaker 2: not that big of a deal. So can you talk 352 00:22:49,770 --> 00:22:51,830 Speaker 2: about that dichotomy with victims? 353 00:22:53,210 --> 00:22:56,540 Speaker 3: Well, with Nicole, when she asked me to take those pictures, 354 00:22:58,220 --> 00:22:59,820 Speaker 3: I said, well, what are you going to do with them? 355 00:23:00,260 --> 00:23:03,230 Speaker 3: She said, I don't know. She didn't know what she 356 00:23:03,270 --> 00:23:05,460 Speaker 3: was doing with them. She just wanted to have them. 357 00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:08,200 Speaker 3: What was going on in the back of her head 358 00:23:08,280 --> 00:23:12,220 Speaker 3: with that? I don't exactly know. But I do know 359 00:23:12,300 --> 00:23:17,020 Speaker 3: that when she went to the police station, they took 360 00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,659 Speaker 3: the pictures of her with her sweatpants on and they 361 00:23:19,700 --> 00:23:23,490 Speaker 3: were all muddy. That one they took there. So all 362 00:23:23,550 --> 00:23:26,390 Speaker 3: the pictures, did she take them to the police station? 363 00:23:26,430 --> 00:23:29,629 Speaker 3: Did they take their own pictures of Nicole that looked 364 00:23:29,690 --> 00:23:33,250 Speaker 3: like the ones that I took? I don't know. But 365 00:23:33,310 --> 00:23:36,650 Speaker 3: I do know that they were leaked and that they 366 00:23:36,670 --> 00:23:40,100 Speaker 3: were going to be released to the National Enquirer. Because 367 00:23:40,140 --> 00:23:42,560 Speaker 3: she called me and she said, Denise, I have to 368 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:45,060 Speaker 3: get out of town. Will you go with me? And 369 00:23:45,100 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 3: I said, what do you mean you have to get 370 00:23:46,340 --> 00:23:49,140 Speaker 3: out of town? She said, the National Enquirer has got 371 00:23:49,180 --> 00:23:52,649 Speaker 3: some pictures of me and I don't want to be 372 00:23:52,690 --> 00:23:57,290 Speaker 3: here when they're released. And so I said, oh my God. 373 00:23:57,609 --> 00:24:00,280 Speaker 3: And you know, you sit there and you think, the 374 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:05,620 Speaker 3: National Enquirer and all those kind of tabloid magazines. It's like, wow, 375 00:24:05,700 --> 00:24:08,720 Speaker 3: my sister is going to be on that or in 376 00:24:08,760 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 3: that magazine. Because back in the day, I mean, it 377 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,340 Speaker 3: was just, well, you didn't want to be in the 378 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:18,680 Speaker 3: National Enquirer that way. And so anyway, so she said, 379 00:24:18,880 --> 00:24:21,330 Speaker 3: will you go with me to Cabo? Let's go. Let's 380 00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:24,210 Speaker 3: just grab the kids and go. And so we did. 381 00:24:24,430 --> 00:24:26,850 Speaker 3: And we went down to Cabo. And that's where she 382 00:24:26,890 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 3: told me. Yeah, when we got there, I said, okay, 383 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,619 Speaker 3: we had a conversation. She says, no, I'm not going 384 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,580 Speaker 3: to ruin his life. I'm not going to do that. 385 00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 3: I don't want to ruin his career. I don't want 386 00:24:36,859 --> 00:24:39,310 Speaker 3: to ruin his life. I don't want to, you know, 387 00:24:39,619 --> 00:24:41,770 Speaker 3: I just don't want to do that. And I heard 388 00:24:41,810 --> 00:24:48,189 Speaker 3: that probably about six, seven, eight, nine, 10 times. And finally, 389 00:24:48,250 --> 00:24:49,690 Speaker 3: I just said, you know what? I'm going to let 390 00:24:49,730 --> 00:24:53,710 Speaker 3: it go. And then it was, we had a fun time. 391 00:24:54,390 --> 00:24:56,459 Speaker 3: We had such a great time down there. The old 392 00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,840 Speaker 3: Nicole came back. And it was horseback riding. We went 393 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 3: to the beach. We did everything with the kids and 394 00:25:01,900 --> 00:25:04,939 Speaker 3: it was really, really a wonderful time. And then she 395 00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 3: told me, she says, well, maybe we'll stay down here 396 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,719 Speaker 3: a little bit longer. And because I do not want 397 00:25:10,740 --> 00:25:14,510 Speaker 3: to go back and have, you know, Oh God, Nicole, 398 00:25:14,550 --> 00:25:18,030 Speaker 3: I'm so sorry. I, she didn't want the, the people 399 00:25:18,090 --> 00:25:21,290 Speaker 3: and friends calling her and saying, Oh, I'm so sorry. 400 00:25:21,310 --> 00:25:23,429 Speaker 3: Boo hoo. You know, all that kind of stuff. I'm 401 00:25:23,470 --> 00:25:28,169 Speaker 3: sorry this happened to you. So, yeah. And it, It 402 00:25:28,230 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 3: kind of makes me think about what Ron Hardy said. 403 00:25:32,260 --> 00:25:34,580 Speaker 3: Ron Hardy was a good friend of Nicole's. And he 404 00:25:34,619 --> 00:25:36,960 Speaker 3: was in the Life and Murder of Nicole Brown Simpson, 405 00:25:36,980 --> 00:25:41,740 Speaker 3: the documentary that us sisters did. And I asked him 406 00:25:41,780 --> 00:25:44,140 Speaker 3: when he got done filming, I said, Ron, I said, 407 00:25:44,180 --> 00:25:48,030 Speaker 3: did Nicole ever share any abuse with you? And he said, no. 408 00:25:48,869 --> 00:25:51,830 Speaker 3: And I said, he says, you know what? I think 409 00:25:51,869 --> 00:25:54,930 Speaker 3: the reason she didn't say anything was to protect her 410 00:25:55,010 --> 00:26:02,430 Speaker 3: family and her friends. And that I understood. That made 411 00:26:02,510 --> 00:26:06,500 Speaker 3: sense to me. Because then you sit there and you 412 00:26:06,540 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 3: think of all the things, like I was telling you earlier, 413 00:26:10,200 --> 00:26:12,740 Speaker 3: threatening to kill the family, threatening to take the kids 414 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:17,139 Speaker 3: away from you, threatening, threatening, threatening all the different things 415 00:26:17,180 --> 00:26:19,630 Speaker 3: that they can come up with. And you're the only 416 00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:22,000 Speaker 3: one that actually knows how bad the person can be. 417 00:26:36,180 --> 00:26:39,040 Speaker 1: In listening to the 911 calls. 418 00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:40,320 Speaker 3: I've never heard it. 419 00:26:40,660 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: You haven't? 420 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:43,940 Speaker 2: So that's what I was going to ask you. I 421 00:26:44,780 --> 00:26:50,980 Speaker 2: watched last night the courtroom piece of that, where they 422 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:56,290 Speaker 2: play the one from 93 in its entirety. And what 423 00:26:57,010 --> 00:27:02,090 Speaker 2: is so unbelievable to me is that it's 15 minutes long. 424 00:27:02,109 --> 00:27:06,430 Speaker 3: Oh, my gosh. I didn't even know that. 425 00:27:07,210 --> 00:27:10,950 Speaker 2: Several things are striking to me. First of all, what 426 00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:15,540 Speaker 2: was most upsetting to me, it's obviously upsetting because you 427 00:27:15,820 --> 00:27:20,260 Speaker 2: hear her in terror and you hear him just screaming 428 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:22,820 Speaker 2: and cursing and yelling and upset. 429 00:27:22,940 --> 00:27:25,710 Speaker 1: It's just outrageous. But in the. 430 00:27:25,690 --> 00:27:30,070 Speaker 2: Courtroom, this is going to make me cry too, his 431 00:27:30,150 --> 00:27:34,880 Speaker 2: attorneys sitting there, the one Couldn't even look at him. 432 00:27:35,340 --> 00:27:39,790 Speaker 2: So it was Robert Shapiro, Johnny Cochran and the other Douglas. 433 00:27:40,170 --> 00:27:40,430 Speaker 3: Yes. 434 00:27:41,090 --> 00:27:45,090 Speaker 2: And he couldn't even look at OJ. And I was like, 435 00:27:45,730 --> 00:27:48,090 Speaker 2: how can you defend this person? You can't even look 436 00:27:48,130 --> 00:27:50,830 Speaker 2: at him. It was so appalling. Johnny Cochran sort of 437 00:27:50,890 --> 00:27:54,710 Speaker 2: like chatting with him and, you know, uh, trying to 438 00:27:54,750 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 2: sort of distract and make it seem like nothing's happening. 439 00:27:58,450 --> 00:28:00,840 Speaker 2: And Robert Shapiro is in the back and he's just 440 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,700 Speaker 2: sort of staring at into space. 441 00:28:03,780 --> 00:28:05,850 Speaker 1: Like, how did I get here? 442 00:28:06,570 --> 00:28:12,129 Speaker 2: And this thing, I just think I cannot understand how 443 00:28:12,190 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 2: this man was not convicted. I just cannot understand it. 444 00:28:18,130 --> 00:28:21,820 Speaker 3: Well, I learned a lot from that whole thing because 445 00:28:22,340 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 3: the trial one should have been held in Santa Monica. Yes. The, 446 00:28:28,380 --> 00:28:33,290 Speaker 3: you know, the murders happened there too. There were the riots, 447 00:28:34,810 --> 00:28:39,230 Speaker 3: Los Angeles riots downtown, Reginald Denny and the other one. 448 00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:47,500 Speaker 3: So then my father, after the trial, he got a 449 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 3: phone call from one of the jurors and the juror 450 00:28:51,660 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 3: told him, Mr. Brown, I need to tell you, or 451 00:28:54,900 --> 00:28:57,340 Speaker 3: I'm not sure when it was. I don't remember offhand now, 452 00:28:57,900 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 3: but he got a phone call and he said, I 453 00:29:00,720 --> 00:29:04,320 Speaker 3: just want to let you know that I heard the 454 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:09,010 Speaker 3: jurors after we were sequestered, I heard the jurors saying 455 00:29:09,310 --> 00:29:14,510 Speaker 3: that now it's payback time. She went up to judge 456 00:29:14,610 --> 00:29:19,550 Speaker 3: Edo and said, told them exactly what she heard. And he, 457 00:29:21,530 --> 00:29:25,760 Speaker 3: judge Edo let her go. Not the person that said 458 00:29:26,340 --> 00:29:27,100 Speaker 3: it's payback time. 459 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:27,920 Speaker 1: He excused her. 460 00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:30,900 Speaker 3: He excused the woman that went up and said this 461 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:35,200 Speaker 3: after they were sequestered. So I have learned so much 462 00:29:35,530 --> 00:29:39,210 Speaker 3: after all of, you know, about the trials and about, 463 00:29:39,650 --> 00:29:42,420 Speaker 3: you know, the rights that we had that I didn't 464 00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,260 Speaker 3: know that we had, you know, victim services was there 465 00:29:46,300 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 3: with us, and they were wonderful. But I didn't know that, hey, 466 00:29:50,740 --> 00:29:53,530 Speaker 3: we have the right to ask all kinds of questions. 467 00:29:53,620 --> 00:29:56,190 Speaker 3: And why did you do this? And why didn't you 468 00:29:56,250 --> 00:29:59,550 Speaker 3: do this? And, you know, to I just, we really 469 00:29:59,610 --> 00:30:04,130 Speaker 3: thought we were in good hands, that people were, we'd 470 00:30:04,190 --> 00:30:06,230 Speaker 3: never been through this before. We had never been to 471 00:30:06,310 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 3: court before. So you always want to believe that these 472 00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:13,600 Speaker 3: people that are representing your sister or you in court 473 00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:17,940 Speaker 3: for that matter, or anybody that they're doing this for 474 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 3: you in your best interest. Well, I learned that it's 475 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,300 Speaker 3: not all about that. It's about winning a case and 476 00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:26,530 Speaker 3: they'll do whatever they possibly can to win a case. 477 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 3: And that was the defense. And, you know, I even 478 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 3: write in the book when he tried on the glove. Hello. 479 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:37,000 Speaker 3: He was not sworn in. Judge Edo should have never 480 00:30:37,060 --> 00:30:41,160 Speaker 3: allowed it. He made a mockery of the whole court 481 00:30:41,260 --> 00:30:45,500 Speaker 3: system by doing this, because unless you're sworn in, you're 482 00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,820 Speaker 3: not allowed to do that. Unless you're up on the stand, 483 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,500 Speaker 3: you're sworn in. This is the truth, the whole truth 484 00:30:52,540 --> 00:30:54,980 Speaker 3: and nothing but the truth. I had to do that 485 00:30:55,020 --> 00:30:57,990 Speaker 3: when I went up on the stand. But no, he 486 00:30:58,030 --> 00:31:01,110 Speaker 3: could just show off and just do whatever he had 487 00:31:01,150 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 3: to do. Disgusting, disgusting, disgusting. So I can say that 488 00:31:06,000 --> 00:31:09,320 Speaker 3: it's not the best thing that I have ever done 489 00:31:09,340 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 3: in my whole entire life or remember in my whole 490 00:31:11,660 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 3: entire life or experienced in my whole entire life because 491 00:31:15,820 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 3: they made a mockery out of our judicial system. 492 00:31:19,920 --> 00:31:21,260 Speaker 1: I couldn't agree more. 493 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:26,640 Speaker 2: And it was such a specific moment in Los Angeles. 494 00:31:27,910 --> 00:31:30,750 Speaker 2: There were so many things. I moved to LA. I'm 495 00:31:30,790 --> 00:31:31,990 Speaker 2: not going to make this about me. I'll tell you 496 00:31:32,030 --> 00:31:37,990 Speaker 2: this offline. But I'm fiercely aware of that moment and 497 00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 2: how specific it was and all the things at play, 498 00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:45,600 Speaker 2: that the DA needed a win, that people were rightfully 499 00:31:45,740 --> 00:31:50,260 Speaker 2: so outraged about the racism that was going on. And 500 00:31:51,060 --> 00:31:53,440 Speaker 2: it was like the perfect storm to turn it into 501 00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,030 Speaker 2: that when it really had nothing to do with that. 502 00:31:56,050 --> 00:31:56,969 Speaker 3: Nothing to do with it, no. 503 00:31:57,610 --> 00:31:59,810 Speaker 1: Well, I have one more question. One more question. 504 00:31:59,870 --> 00:32:05,030 Speaker 2: So you've spent 30 years talking about the worst thing 505 00:32:05,070 --> 00:32:08,550 Speaker 2: that ever happened to your family. And was there anything 506 00:32:08,610 --> 00:32:13,360 Speaker 2: about writing this book that you still weren't prepared to confront? 507 00:32:14,130 --> 00:32:17,500 Speaker 3: Yeah, probably the afterword that I told you about coming 508 00:32:17,540 --> 00:32:21,420 Speaker 3: to that realization that Nicole was that face of domestic violence. 509 00:32:21,900 --> 00:32:25,780 Speaker 3: That she was put on this earth for that. And that... 510 00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 3: That was a hard realization for me. And every time 511 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,340 Speaker 3: I think about it, it's a hard realization. It's just like, 512 00:32:35,460 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 3: why her? Why Nicole? When this was happening to so 513 00:32:39,940 --> 00:32:44,400 Speaker 3: many people before. It's like, why did it take Nicole? Well, 514 00:32:44,480 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 3: I know why it took Nicole. Because people used to 515 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:50,860 Speaker 3: think it happened to poor and homeless people. Nicole wasn't poor. 516 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 3: She wasn't homeless. She was a beautiful woman with so 517 00:32:54,220 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 3: much life and so much to do ahead of her. 518 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,590 Speaker 3: So why her? Why didn't people take it seriously before? 519 00:33:03,140 --> 00:33:06,230 Speaker 3: You know, I still have a thousand why questions. I'll 520 00:33:06,290 --> 00:33:09,070 Speaker 3: tell you. I don't think my why questions will ever 521 00:33:09,250 --> 00:33:12,250 Speaker 3: end or ever be answered because she's one not here 522 00:33:12,270 --> 00:33:14,870 Speaker 3: to answer them. And I don't think anybody has an 523 00:33:14,950 --> 00:33:21,100 Speaker 3: answer for that. Yeah. Why Nicole? Yeah. Oh, Denise. 524 00:33:22,100 --> 00:33:26,280 Speaker 2: So the book is called For My Sister Nicole, Love 525 00:33:26,320 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 2: Shouldn't Hurt, What to Know About Domestic Violence. Denise, I 526 00:33:30,660 --> 00:33:35,160 Speaker 2: can't thank you enough for this conversation. I am in 527 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,820 Speaker 2: awe of you. Again, I'm just profoundly sorry that you 528 00:33:39,900 --> 00:33:44,180 Speaker 2: even have to do this. But I'm grateful for all 529 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: of the work you're doing, as are all of the 530 00:33:45,900 --> 00:33:46,800 Speaker 2: women in this country. 531 00:33:46,820 --> 00:33:50,630 Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Thank you. Well, thank you. It's 532 00:33:50,670 --> 00:33:52,670 Speaker 3: been a pleasure and it was really great meeting you. 533 00:33:53,110 --> 00:33:53,650 Speaker 1: You too. 534 00:33:53,950 --> 00:33:56,880 Speaker 2: Everyone buy this book and read it. It's beautiful and 535 00:33:56,920 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 2: it's important. Thank you so much, Denise. 536 00:33:59,920 --> 00:34:00,360 Speaker 3: Thank you.