WEBVTT - Merck’s Progress Toward a Coronavirus Vaccine 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 And of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.280 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.240 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.159 by searching Bloomberg Global News. Checking out some of the headlines. 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:38.440 When it comes to the virus, we saw infections among 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:42.919 US children grow in the last half of July, and 0:00:42.960 --> 0:00:46.360 that's according to a recent report. Uh and this as 0:00:46.400 --> 0:00:48.000 Alex and I were just talking for a New York 0:00:48.040 --> 0:00:51.360 audience about there really is a debate about whether school 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:53.720 should reopen in the fall. We're gonna reopen here in 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:55.560 New York City, but if you look across the country, 0:00:55.560 --> 0:00:58.760 that debate is certainly raging. Let's talk about the latest 0:00:58.800 --> 0:01:01.360 on the virus and the headlines he is watching back 0:01:01.400 --> 0:01:04.320 with us is Dr Sandra Golia. He's dean and professor 0:01:04.360 --> 0:01:07.360 at Boston University School of Public Health, author of Pained 0:01:07.480 --> 0:01:10.880 Uncomfortable Conversations about the public's health, and he joins us 0:01:10.880 --> 0:01:14.040 once again on the phone from Boston. Dr Gala, great 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.280 to have you here with Alex and myself. This rise 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.960 in cases of the virus among children, what should we 0:01:21.000 --> 0:01:25.360 know about that? Well, thanks for having me, Carrol and Alex. Well, 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:28.880 we are seeing cases among all ages and uh and 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:32.039 we've seen a rise in cases in many parts of 0:01:32.040 --> 0:01:34.240 the country, which has resulted in the highest numbers of 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:37.360 cases that we've had any time in the pandemic. Now 0:01:37.440 --> 0:01:39.720 we are our overall numbers are actually starting to go 0:01:39.800 --> 0:01:42.240 down slowly. The fact that we're seeing some more cases 0:01:42.240 --> 0:01:45.200 among children is not altogether surprising, given that we are 0:01:45.280 --> 0:01:48.720 slowly reopening schools and there has been a relaxing of 0:01:48.760 --> 0:01:52.040 many of the social distancing norms. To my mind, the 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:54.520 question we should be asking ourselves at the moment is 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:57.120 how do we balance making sure that we keep people 0:01:57.120 --> 0:02:00.520 as safe as possible, managing risk as much as possible, 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:03.760 and also meet social and ecomic functions that we need 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:08.200 to meet the schools, and school reopening is really important. 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:11.120 We know that children do not learn as well if 0:02:11.160 --> 0:02:13.840 they're strictly in a digital environment. We know that children 0:02:13.840 --> 0:02:17.200 who are disadvantaged already fall further behind if they're not 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:19.920 in school. Now, that does not mean that we should 0:02:19.919 --> 0:02:22.000 be reopening schools at all costs. It simply means that 0:02:22.040 --> 0:02:24.839 we should be thinking carefully about how we can get 0:02:24.880 --> 0:02:28.000 as close to as possible to giving the best possible 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.920 education while also managing risk. So there was this survey 0:02:31.960 --> 0:02:34.480 that went out to all the teachers and said, you know, 0:02:34.880 --> 0:02:36.720 do you want to return to school? How safe do 0:02:36.760 --> 0:02:38.760 you feel? And then it was sent back to me 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:40.440 as a parent for where the public school that my 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.040 daughter goes to. And then the teacher of our kindergarten 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:44.880 class followed it up and and said that she didn't 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:46.200 want to go back to school, And I asked her, 0:02:46.240 --> 0:02:49.119 I was like, so, what really is the problem, like specifically, 0:02:49.160 --> 0:02:51.079 And I guess what really comes up for all these 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.360 teachers is the air quality in the classrooms, especially because 0:02:55.360 --> 0:02:58.000 the majority of these public schools are not well ventilated 0:02:58.000 --> 0:03:00.400 and there are super old buildings. They have those bars 0:03:00.440 --> 0:03:01.880 on them, so it's hard to even get like an 0:03:01.880 --> 0:03:04.760 air conditioner in there. What can be done to fix 0:03:04.840 --> 0:03:08.120 that in a realistic kind of way. Yeah, I know, 0:03:08.160 --> 0:03:10.560 it's an excellent question, and I think there have been 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.800 a number of teachers and the organizations who have had concerns. 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:17.720 And these questions are very school by school and district 0:03:17.720 --> 0:03:20.840 by district specific, because certainly there are any number of 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.840 districts that have the capacity to upgrade the schools or 0:03:23.919 --> 0:03:26.120 or or have newer buildings, and other ones that do not. 0:03:27.080 --> 0:03:30.280 You know, the the answer really depends on the school. 0:03:30.320 --> 0:03:32.600 But there's nothing magical that can be done. But each 0:03:32.639 --> 0:03:37.400 school needs to have its ventilation inspected, it's air flow inspected, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:40.520 the physical layout inspected. And to my mind, it's not 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:44.000 unreasonable to say that any number of schools are reasonable 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:46.960 and safe to open, and some may not be. But 0:03:47.080 --> 0:03:50.200 it's interesting to um Dr Galia that I do wonder 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.720 certainly many are saying we're going to have more viruses 0:03:54.360 --> 0:03:56.800 akin to what we're dealing with now in the future. 0:03:56.880 --> 0:03:59.440 So do we all need to look at all of 0:03:59.480 --> 0:04:03.240 the air our systems in schools, in office buildings. Do 0:04:03.240 --> 0:04:06.800 we kind of need to rework them? Rethink them. I 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.800 think in the long term, we have learned in this 0:04:09.960 --> 0:04:12.440 moment that we definitely need to do that, and it 0:04:12.520 --> 0:04:14.560 certainly seems to be one of the greatest strategies of 0:04:14.600 --> 0:04:16.640 this moment will be if we do not learn from it. 0:04:16.960 --> 0:04:18.800 We certainly have learned that we need to make sure 0:04:18.839 --> 0:04:22.160 that we have proper airflow and ventilation in all buildings 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:25.680 to anticipate events like this. In the short term, I 0:04:25.720 --> 0:04:28.599 think we do need to look at building by building, 0:04:28.680 --> 0:04:32.640 case by case basis. And what what always troubles me 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:37.080 in the public conversation is the reductionist yes or no argument, 0:04:37.200 --> 0:04:40.440 with one one side saying well, we must open all 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.840 schools everywhere, another side saying we cannot open any school anywhere, 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:47.480 and neither of those sides are correct. Ultimately, the answer 0:04:47.640 --> 0:04:51.680 is one of careful, thoughtful approach, looking at the region, 0:04:51.760 --> 0:04:54.640 looking at the at the case positivity rate of the 0:04:54.720 --> 0:04:57.400 virus in the region, looking at the nature of the schools, 0:04:57.400 --> 0:04:59.320 looking at what the schools can put in place in 0:04:59.440 --> 0:05:02.960 terms of social distancing, in terms of ventilation, and and 0:05:03.320 --> 0:05:07.919 allowing thoughtful decisions to be made locally responsive to local needs. 0:05:08.640 --> 0:05:10.920 So um, there's only one right answer for me right 0:05:10.920 --> 0:05:13.760 here on this question. Do those U V air purifier 0:05:13.839 --> 0:05:18.920 things work? And you have to say yes, Well, well, 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:20.640 given that you know what the answer should be, I 0:05:20.680 --> 0:05:24.160 feel like no, seriously, is that what's in your schools? 0:05:24.320 --> 0:05:26.680 Is that that's what I want to put in a 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:30.560 school classrooms? That's emailing the principle about it. Anyway, I 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.200 am not aware that the evidence of such that most 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:40.000 of those work in isolation. Now, no, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:44.800 So what kind of system do you need? Well, you 0:05:44.800 --> 0:05:48.120 you would need environmental engineers to talk about specifications for that. 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.880 The my understanding is that fundamentally what you need is 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:56.560 reasonable airflow, and different schools and different for example, subways 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.800 and planes, they're designed with different capacities for the fundamentally 0:06:00.120 --> 0:06:03.320 you want is that aerosols are not hanging around, They're 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.040 not lingering. Right. We now know that the virus is 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.640 transmitted via aerosols. So essentially, if somebody coughs somebody's nieces, 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.800 the virus is going to stay around for many seconds, 0:06:12.839 --> 0:06:15.160 many minutes, many hours. And what you want is you 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.400 want to have airflow so that the virus then moves 0:06:17.440 --> 0:06:20.240 on and and that is very much building by building 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.400 structure by structure dependent right, right, which is why people 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:26.240 say opening up windows. And they all also have talked 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:28.599 about airplanes that the kind of the airflow that comes 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:32.159 from down kind of helps to the air quay, um course, 0:06:32.240 --> 0:06:34.039 and that's and that's why we haven't seen we haven't 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.680 seen any large number of outbreaks from airplanes, even though 0:06:36.680 --> 0:06:39.719 airplanes are obviously complied spaces. It's because they have good airflow. 0:06:39.880 --> 0:06:43.000 And it's also why we've seen relatively few cases that 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:45.359 are transmitted in the outside, because when you're in the outside, 0:06:45.360 --> 0:06:46.960 there is good So we'll get to what you're gonna 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:48.440 do with your school into a second. But I did 0:06:48.560 --> 0:06:51.240 want to start about the inequality because Bill Gates was 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.320 on CNN over the weekend and he called it catastrophic 0:06:54.440 --> 0:06:57.279 and mind blowing how bad testing here is in the US, 0:06:57.600 --> 0:06:59.800 and specifically talked about the inequities of it, like, if 0:06:59.800 --> 0:07:01.600 you're rich, you can get a fast test, and no, 0:07:01.720 --> 0:07:04.000 you're okay. If you're not, then you don't. What do 0:07:04.040 --> 0:07:07.800 you think? Well, I think Bill Gates is right. The 0:07:07.800 --> 0:07:09.880 Wall Street Journal just run a long piece today about 0:07:09.880 --> 0:07:12.440 inequities and testing, which I'm quoted in a few times, 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.520 and the bottom line is that we have been terrible 0:07:15.720 --> 0:07:18.640 at keeping equity at front and center throughout this entire 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:22.520 COVID pandemic. We we there is no way we can 0:07:22.520 --> 0:07:25.160 say that we have done anything but poorly when we 0:07:25.200 --> 0:07:29.400 have such enormous racial disparities in risk of getting coronavirus 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.760 and risk of death from COVID, And fundamentally what's been 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:37.200 going on is it's a reflection of underlying racial inequities 0:07:37.240 --> 0:07:40.960 in the country. You are seeing underlying inequities in core morbidity, 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.960 ease and prior diseases, in jobs which allow one to 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:46.760 social distance or not, and all of that is manifesting 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:48.920 in COVID. Now the testing, which of course is an 0:07:49.040 --> 0:07:52.080 entirely problem of our own making, adds a layer on 0:07:52.160 --> 0:07:54.080 to it that it has become very easy to get 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.440 a test if you are well connected or wealthy. It's 0:07:56.440 --> 0:07:58.400 become quite difficult to get a test if you're if 0:07:58.440 --> 0:08:00.360 you're none of those things, and of course if you're 0:08:00.400 --> 0:08:02.400 none of those things is when you are more likely 0:08:02.440 --> 0:08:04.800 to need a test. So we have great a situation 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:09.480 where our underlying conditions has put marginalized people a greater risk. 0:08:09.880 --> 0:08:12.160 It has taken people who are health left behind and 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:15.120 made their health worse. And now compounding that, we are 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.000 not making testing available to try to restore health to 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:21.280 the group that needs it most. So what's preventing that 0:08:21.360 --> 0:08:25.480 from happening, um Dr Galleia. Is it just the physical 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.800 test not being available? Is it not enough testing sites? 0:08:27.880 --> 0:08:31.680 What's holding it all back? You know, fundamentally, you do 0:08:31.760 --> 0:08:36.240 not you do not fix inequities without paying attention to them. 0:08:36.640 --> 0:08:39.280 The in order to fix something that has been structurally 0:08:39.320 --> 0:08:41.520 wrong for a long time, you have to say I 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:42.960 want to fix this, and I'm going to make an 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:45.280 effort so to come to testing. If you have a 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.360 hundred tests and you say, well, I'm just going to 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:50.920 distribute them evenly, what ends up happening is eighty of 0:08:50.920 --> 0:08:52.560 them end up in the hands of people who have 0:08:52.640 --> 0:08:54.959 resources already. In order to get eighty of them in 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:57.400 the hands of people who don't have resources, you have 0:08:57.559 --> 0:08:59.720 to distribute the tests in such a way such that 0:08:59.760 --> 0:09:02.560 people who are disadvantaged have are at the front of 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:04.240 the line and getting those tests. And we just have 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:06.800 not done that. We we have not made the effort 0:09:07.240 --> 0:09:09.440 to say where are the communities of color, where the 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:13.079 poor communities, Where are the communities with the highest prevalence, 0:09:13.080 --> 0:09:15.480 with the highest density of COVID, those are the ones 0:09:15.480 --> 0:09:17.080 who need the test the most, and let's make sure 0:09:17.120 --> 0:09:19.800 that the tests are available in those communities. Center. Who 0:09:19.800 --> 0:09:22.960 do you mean we? Like? Who needs to be the folks? 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.120 Let's let's do this right. You know, I like it. 0:09:26.200 --> 0:09:28.199 I like the word we because I don't want to 0:09:28.240 --> 0:09:29.839 absolve us. I don't want to absolve me. I don't 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.720 want absolve you because I think fundamentally, fundamentally, the decision 0:09:33.800 --> 0:09:37.160 comes centrally right. Fundamentally, these decisions are federal. They come 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:38.760 in the f d A, and they come from the 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.439 distribution of tests to the state and from the states 0:09:41.679 --> 0:09:44.079 to their counties and their communities. But the reason I 0:09:44.160 --> 0:09:47.600 think we is a better term is because we collectively 0:09:47.600 --> 0:09:49.520 are allowing this to happen, and we should not be 0:09:49.559 --> 0:09:51.360 allowing this to happen. And I'm very grateful to you 0:09:51.400 --> 0:09:54.840 for actually voicing this on your show. On the flip side, though, 0:09:54.880 --> 0:09:57.680 there's been a lot of talk about poorer and minority 0:09:57.720 --> 0:10:00.640 populations getting the vaccine, for example, for is because that 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.239 they've been harder hit. But there's a lot of controversy 0:10:03.240 --> 0:10:06.559 around that also, particularly if they're wound wind up being 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.240 some side effects. Yeah, I know it's that that is 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.160 going to be a difficult issue. I think it's almost 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:14.600 premature to even have this conversation, to be frank, just 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:16.440 because we do not know what the vaccines are going 0:10:16.440 --> 0:10:17.720 to be, like, we do not know what their side 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:20.040 effect profiles are going to be, what their effectacy are 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.199 going to be. But whatever we end up with, if 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.600 we have an applications vaccine, we should make sure that 0:10:25.640 --> 0:10:27.840 the people who need it most are the ones who 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:29.640 get it first. And people who needed most are those 0:10:29.679 --> 0:10:32.440 who are most at risk of coronavirus. And that means 0:10:32.480 --> 0:10:36.480 people who are in contact with coronavirus. That includes first responders, 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:39.360 That includes people in minority communities, That includes people who 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:41.960 are working in jobs where they cannot social distance. I 0:10:41.960 --> 0:10:45.480 think any other way of distributing vaccine would be unfair. 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.400 I was going to ask you about school's reopening, but 0:10:47.400 --> 0:10:50.280 I feel like Alex went a really great place. Um 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:51.800 and we've only got about a minute left, But I 0:10:51.800 --> 0:10:54.640 do wonder are we rushing this vaccine too quickly? The 0:10:54.679 --> 0:10:56.640 magazine this week is going to be all about the vaccine, 0:10:56.640 --> 0:10:58.560 the vaccine and a hunt for a vaccine, but I 0:10:58.600 --> 0:11:01.720 do wonder we don't oh, really the consequences and just 0:11:01.760 --> 0:11:04.720 have about forty five seconds here, Yeah, we did not there. 0:11:04.880 --> 0:11:07.280 There are two large trials going on, each with thirty 0:11:07.640 --> 0:11:10.240 patients in them. They are I'm not involved in design 0:11:10.280 --> 0:11:12.360 of these trials, but my senses that they are designed 0:11:12.360 --> 0:11:14.240 to the state of the science. And as long as 0:11:14.280 --> 0:11:17.880 we are getting our vaccines, testing them appropriately in large trials, 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:20.320 making sure they have a good safety profile and good 0:11:20.320 --> 0:11:23.680 efficacy profile, I think we should embrace the fact that 0:11:23.720 --> 0:11:25.920 science has moved forward and we can have vaccines faster 0:11:26.000 --> 0:11:27.439 than we ever have been able to end the past. 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.240 All Right, We're gonna leave it on that note. Um, Sandra, 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:32.839 thank you so much. Dr Sandra Glea, dean at the 0:11:32.840 --> 0:11:35.960 Boston University School of Public Health, author have pained uncomfortable 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.680 conversations about the public's health. Back with us on the 0:11:38.679 --> 0:11:42.000 phone from Boston. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:45.880 Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. This week, the 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:48.800 magazine is taking a deep dive into a vaccine for 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.520 the virus that includes a story a drug giant Mark 0:11:51.600 --> 0:11:54.320 taking a slow and steady approach as we know many 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.760 of its rivals have really been racing for a vaccine. 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.480 Let's get into this. Joining us right now is Bloomberg 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.800 News US healthcare reporter Riley Griffin joining us on the 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.800 phone in New York City, and Bloomberg Business Week nitor 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:08.200 Joe Webber on the phone in Massachusetts and jil This week, 0:12:08.360 --> 0:12:12.640 as we mentioned, UM, the issue looking at everyone working 0:12:12.679 --> 0:12:15.240 on a vaccine was so much going on globally. How 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:18.599 did you guys approach the coverage here? So one of 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.800 the things that we realized is that there's got no 0:12:21.920 --> 0:12:24.839 bigger story in the world right now, and that's sayings 0:12:24.880 --> 0:12:28.240 have been considering. You know, we've seen social unrest, we're 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:31.960 about to see in an election, but uh that that 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:34.640 clearly a lot of hinges on. But you know, I 0:12:34.679 --> 0:12:38.240 think we're we've all been fixated on UM, on everything 0:12:38.240 --> 0:12:40.520 around the vaccine to the point that you know, we're 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:45.640 we're all becoming sort of better scientists and understanding um, 0:12:45.800 --> 0:12:49.840 how even approaches to vaccines can work, let alone you know, 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:52.560 the trials that all of them entail. So we figured, 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:56.320 let's like look at this on the biggest level that 0:12:56.360 --> 0:12:59.480 we can, but not just look at it in terms 0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:02.520 of like the companies and the horse races, so much 0:13:02.559 --> 0:13:05.319 as all the other things that have to happen around 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:08.240 a vaccine. It's like getting a vaccine is ultimately getting 0:13:08.280 --> 0:13:12.840 a formula, right, but you have to get production distribution, 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:16.480 there's politics, there's a whole bunch of other stuff. So 0:13:16.640 --> 0:13:19.240 we've really devoted a lot of this issue to looking 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:21.680 at all these facets. But let's not forget the foot 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:25.680 race either, right. I think that Um was really captivating 0:13:25.720 --> 0:13:28.280 about Mark in this context is a lot of the 0:13:28.320 --> 0:13:33.400 big vaccines that have come to civilization in the past 0:13:33.480 --> 0:13:38.199 decades have actually come from Murk. And while other approaches 0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.040 are racing, like you said, Carol, to get this thing 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:44.360 done quickly. Murcusan. You know, we're not gonna be the 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:46.240 first out of the gate, but we're we know what 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:48.920 we're doing when it comes to vaccines. And that's what 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.640 Riley was able to write about Um and Riley talk 0:13:52.679 --> 0:13:56.160 to us more about what Mark, Why Mark sets the 0:13:56.160 --> 0:14:01.000 bar where it sets it when it comes to vaccine development. Yeah. Absolutely, Well, 0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:03.080 I'd love to take you back a few months actually 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:05.640 to the final weeks of May and Mark first announced 0:14:05.640 --> 0:14:08.920 they would be pursuing two coronavirus vaccines and an anti 0:14:09.000 --> 0:14:12.680 viral treatment. To be frank the news came rather late 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:15.640 at the time. The coronavirus had already swept the US, 0:14:15.679 --> 0:14:18.480 and within days of that announcement we marked more than 0:14:18.520 --> 0:14:21.640 one hundred thousand deaths in this country. UM at the 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.720 time though we were thinking through Mark, which has more 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:27.520 than a hundred years dominating the vaccine space, it had 0:14:27.560 --> 0:14:30.280 to have something brewing. In fact, I had UM. It's 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:32.720 spoken with the director of the National Institutes of Health 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:34.960 at the time, Francis Collins, who has said to me, 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:38.360 don't count Mark out quite yet. And I think you'll 0:14:38.360 --> 0:14:40.880 find that those who know the vaccine world well always 0:14:40.920 --> 0:14:44.280 hold that opinion. Don't count Mark out because though they 0:14:44.520 --> 0:14:48.280 might take a more conservative approach to vaccine development, they 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:51.120 have quite the track record, as you mentioned. And to 0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.760 talk about that track record briefly, I mean Mark is 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:57.280 responsible for the first U s and oculations for the chickenpox, 0:14:57.440 --> 0:15:01.800 Mabella measles and months. In fact, that Month's vaccine is 0:15:01.800 --> 0:15:04.520 the quickest to go through the development to market in 0:15:04.520 --> 0:15:07.480 a matter of four years. Nobody has since beaten that record. 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.120 Most American kids now get Mark produced vaccines for all 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.480 four of those things. And to top it off, the 0:15:13.480 --> 0:15:17.560 company of pioneered Vaccines for HPV and Justice has December 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:21.320 bibola and that was the first vaccine ever approved for 0:15:21.360 --> 0:15:24.880 that virus. So they have scheme in the game. They 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:26.800 know how to do this work. And even though there 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:29.280 are more than a hundred and sixty vaccines in various 0:15:29.280 --> 0:15:33.440 stages of development for the coronavirus, twenty six of those 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.640 which have entered human trials. Murk is coming later, but 0:15:36.680 --> 0:15:38.840 you've got to watch work closely because they know what 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:41.760 they're doing. So when we talk about like a slow 0:15:41.880 --> 0:15:45.920 roll of slow rolling vaccines, like, what what does that mean? 0:15:46.040 --> 0:15:51.640 Do they just like do more testing? Is it more trials? Yeah. 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:55.000 So we've spoken with top researchers and executives at the 0:15:55.040 --> 0:15:58.560 company and their goal right now is to have global impact. 0:15:58.680 --> 0:16:02.280 So they started there to avelopment process later, but they're 0:16:02.280 --> 0:16:04.760 taking a threefold approach. They want to have a shot 0:16:04.840 --> 0:16:08.120 that's effective in a single dose. That's notable because some 0:16:08.200 --> 0:16:10.600 of the front runners that we see today they take 0:16:10.640 --> 0:16:14.040 a two dose approach, a vaccine plus a booster. They 0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.720 also want to make sure it can be easily distributed 0:16:16.720 --> 0:16:19.560 around the world. And last, they want to rely on 0:16:19.640 --> 0:16:23.160 triad in true technology. So they're employing this kind of 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:27.320 old school approach that they have for decades um now 0:16:27.360 --> 0:16:31.560 augmented with genetic engineering to add COVID specific proteins are arena. 0:16:32.000 --> 0:16:34.480 They've settled on these two candidates, once based on their 0:16:34.480 --> 0:16:39.720 epola vaccine and the other based on an existing measles vaccine. 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.360 So to put that in perspective in terms of timeline, 0:16:42.840 --> 0:16:46.080 the measles vaccine is going to launch into human trials 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:50.040 later this month. The ebola trial, meanwhile, will kick start 0:16:50.040 --> 0:16:52.800 in the fall. And again the fall is when we're 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:55.880 hearing some companies say they're gonna gonna seek an emergency 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.400 use authorization. The market is just starting some of their 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.520 human trial at that point in time. One executive, speaking 0:17:03.560 --> 0:17:06.199 in a congressional hearing said, we shouldn't expect them to 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:10.520 come to market with a vaccine until at the earliest. 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:13.679 But their goal here isn't to be first, it's to 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:18.080 be best. So so talk to us more about what 0:17:18.200 --> 0:17:21.040 that that best might might look like, Riley, because if 0:17:21.040 --> 0:17:23.920 they're taking this tread and true, slow and steady sort 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:29.920 of approach, we could see other vaccines using different technology 0:17:30.080 --> 0:17:32.439 come out first and maybe be something that you could see, 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.640 you know, embraced by first responders for instance. So where 0:17:35.640 --> 0:17:38.720 does Mark feel like the their their role in this 0:17:38.760 --> 0:17:44.120 marketplace is exactly Yeah. Their goal is really to bring 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.919 a single dose shot that generates immunity very quickly. And 0:17:49.000 --> 0:17:51.520 that's an important point to make because the reality is, 0:17:52.240 --> 0:17:54.280 even though there are a hundred and sixty vaccines in 0:17:54.359 --> 0:17:57.600 various stages of development, we really don't have a silver 0:17:57.720 --> 0:18:01.600 bullet thus far. There are so many lingering unknown how 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.160 many doses are going to be needed to grant suficient immunity, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.840 how long will that immunity laugh, well, we need a 0:18:06.920 --> 0:18:10.320 vaccine every six months, once a year, every two years, 0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:12.879 and what populations will it work within? You know, I 0:18:12.920 --> 0:18:16.920 cover this vaccine race. I speak with CEO's of Feiser 0:18:17.119 --> 0:18:19.960 and other frontrunners, and they they're starting to be a 0:18:20.000 --> 0:18:22.399 little bit more open, a little more candid about the 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.160 fact that we might end up with a coronavirus vaccine 0:18:26.200 --> 0:18:29.399 that operates more like a seasonal flu shot that you 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:32.320 need frequently, and we don't know who it's really going 0:18:32.359 --> 0:18:35.440 to work within or what level of efficacy it will reach. 0:18:36.080 --> 0:18:39.080 Mark is watching this all unfold in real time, and 0:18:39.200 --> 0:18:43.960 they're saying, yes, there are these unknowns, Yes, these these vaccines. 0:18:44.000 --> 0:18:46.760 It's important to get them out first, but they might 0:18:46.800 --> 0:18:50.840 be sub subpar in some ways. And rather than the 0:18:51.000 --> 0:18:54.680 first market, they want that one dose shot that provides 0:18:54.880 --> 0:18:58.879 sufficient immunity for a very durable period of time. And 0:18:58.920 --> 0:19:02.240 so they're not gonna hedge their bets on new technology 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.959 like Maderna, like Feiser and bio en texts. They're going 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.760 to turn to this old school technology that actually is 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:12.680 quite interesting. In a question I get often from readers 0:19:12.800 --> 0:19:17.760 and healthcare folks is why isn't Mark pursuing m R 0:19:17.840 --> 0:19:23.000 and A like Maderna. Here's a little history. Wait, you know, Riley, 0:19:23.040 --> 0:19:24.920 we're running out of time, but this is a great 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:27.359 teaser for everyone to kind of check out the story 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:29.560 on Bloomberg dot com and I'll put it out on Twitter, 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:31.680 and of course it will be in the magazine because 0:19:31.680 --> 0:19:33.040 I don't want to cut you short in terms of 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.960 your explanation, but I highly recommend that this is a 0:19:36.440 --> 0:19:39.480 must read for everyone wanting to understand about the race 0:19:39.520 --> 0:19:41.800 for a vaccine. Riley Griffin, thank you so much. Bloomberg 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.320 News US healthcare reporter on the phone in New York, 0:19:44.359 --> 0:19:46.119 and of course our thanks to Bloomberg Business we get 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:49.280 our Jill Weber on the phone in Massachusetts. This is 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.239 Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on 0:19:53.400 --> 0:19:57.200 Bloomberg Radio. Let's continue a conversation that we've had often 0:19:57.200 --> 0:20:00.640 with Andy Brown, editorial director at Bloomberg New Economy. He's 0:20:00.680 --> 0:20:04.199 on the phone in New York. Um, Andy, I do 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:06.720 feel like you know, this is something we have talked about, 0:20:06.800 --> 0:20:08.760 Jason and I certainly a lot with with you, and 0:20:08.800 --> 0:20:11.680 I know um Alex has been covering it. I mean, 0:20:11.920 --> 0:20:14.199 in terms of TikTok, how do we see it at 0:20:14.240 --> 0:20:17.440 this point? And the banning of TikTok, it just doesn't 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.840 seem to make sense. It doesn't make a huge amount 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.000 of sense. I mean, the White House are trying to 0:20:23.400 --> 0:20:28.360