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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates, or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking true

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Speaker 2: crime all the time. It's Thursday, November twenty seventh, and

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Speaker 2: Happy Thanksgiving everyone. We hope you're having an incredible day

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Speaker 2: with your family and eating everything in sight because we're

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Speaker 2: very excited. We have a very special show tonight. We're

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Speaker 2: joined by us Marshall William Cirucus, who's taking us through

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Speaker 2: and behind the scenes on some of America's biggest man hunts.

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Speaker 2: And later in the show, we're joined by the founder

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Speaker 2: of Prison Writers, in nonprofit she launched to give incarcerated

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Speaker 2: people a platform to tell their stories. I'm Stephanie Leidecker

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Speaker 2: here as always with the two girls that I'm most

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Speaker 2: thankful for, Courtney Armstrong and Body Movie. Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

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Speaker 3: Happy Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 4: I hope we're all filling up with my favorite mashed

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Speaker 4: potatoes and.

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Speaker 2: Gravy and tons of it and lots of stuffing. Courtney

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Speaker 2: your favorite this I know and listen, the holidays are

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Speaker 2: the best because we get to be gathered around the

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Speaker 2: table with all of our loved ones and friends and family.

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Speaker 3: And in large part.

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Speaker 2: We get to do that because others are really busy

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Speaker 2: keeping us safe. So in an effort to really pay

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Speaker 2: tribute to the heroes in law enforcement that keep us

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Speaker 2: able to be able to travel and be around the

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Speaker 2: table with one another, we're doing a special, a little

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Speaker 2: special segment regarding the US Marshals.

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Speaker 5: Yes, and we are so thrilled to be celebrating Stephanie,

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Speaker 5: as you said, everyone who serves, and also for ones

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Speaker 5: who bring justice home, for families and some of us

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Speaker 5: who may have empty seats at our own tables. So

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Speaker 5: our guests who were so thrilled and honored to have

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Speaker 5: Bill Cerucas.

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Speaker 3: He's a former US Marshall.

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Speaker 5: Bill has spent decades tracking some of America's most dangerous fugitives.

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Speaker 5: We're talking everything from the Beltway sniper to the serial

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Speaker 5: killer Andrew Quinanan, and tonight Bill is sharing what it

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Speaker 5: really means to chase evil and never stop.

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Speaker 3: Fighting for justice. Most importantly, Bill, how are you welcome.

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Speaker 6: I'm doing great. Thanks for having me this evening.

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Speaker 7: Thank you, Kyl.

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Speaker 5: So let's jump in what inspired you to dedicate your

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Speaker 5: life to law enforcement? And also can you tell us

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Speaker 5: what service means to you on a day like Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 6: The primary influence in getting into law enforcement was my father.

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Speaker 6: He was an Indiana State trooper, became a detective early

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Speaker 6: on in his career, but the site of the uniform

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Speaker 6: in a big blue car with a light on top

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Speaker 6: of it, he was the envy of the neighborhood with

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Speaker 6: all the kids, and several of our neighbors over the years,

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Speaker 6: I think three or four actually became Indiana State Troopers

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Speaker 6: because of what they observed with him. So I went

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Speaker 6: off to college after high school to Indiana State University

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Speaker 6: terror Hope. I started off as an accounting major, but

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Speaker 6: two years into my time there, I switched over to

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Speaker 6: criminology and I really latched onto it. I had a

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Speaker 6: little bit of an infatuation with the John F. Kennedy assassination,

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Speaker 6: accumulating as many articles and books that I could get

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Speaker 6: my hands on, including my own personal copy of the

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Speaker 6: Abraham Suppruiter film, the six second film Assassination that I

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Speaker 6: bought for I think seventy five dollars in maybe nineteen

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Speaker 6: seventy three. So when I graduated from Indiana State University

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Speaker 6: with a degree in criminology. My first stop was in

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Speaker 6: Indianapolis an hour later, where I took the Treasury exam

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Speaker 6: to be a secret Service agent. They would come calling

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Speaker 6: a number of months later, but I was in a

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Speaker 6: little bit different profile and character at the time, and

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Speaker 6: I don't think they were too thrilled with my personal appearance,

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Speaker 6: so I didn't get that job. But after I graduated.

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Speaker 6: My father came up to me a day or two

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Speaker 6: after I finished school, and he said, are you ready

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Speaker 6: to go to work. He took me to meet two

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Speaker 6: detectives that worked for an agency in Northwest Indiana, and

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Speaker 6: they offered me a position there to go back to

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Speaker 6: high school, so I took it. I became a student

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Speaker 6: at Laporte High School in Northwest Indiana. I assumed the

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Speaker 6: name of an actual person from southern Indiana that had

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Speaker 6: been expelled from his school and was relocating to the

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Speaker 6: Pacific Northwest, so I took his records. I became that person.

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Speaker 6: After the meeting with the detectives, I was in Indianapolis

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Speaker 6: obtaining fictitious identification, a driver's license and vehicle registration, and

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Speaker 6: with that I was able to get a lot more

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Speaker 6: different types of identification. So I went to Laport High

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Speaker 6: School for a number of months, bought narcotics, bought stolen property,

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Speaker 6: and kept the police department and the Sheriff's department informed

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Speaker 6: about where all this was happening and who was involved

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Speaker 6: in it. They had actually told me to sit back

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Speaker 6: for a month or two and not to purchase anything.

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Speaker 6: I think my second or third day, I was offered

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Speaker 6: an opportunity to buy something in a wood shop class,

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Speaker 6: and I did so. I did that. It was from One.

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Speaker 2: Jump Street, that TV show do you remember that back in.

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Speaker 6: The day that came out after I did my time

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Speaker 6: as an undercover officer. But some friends and family, once

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Speaker 6: they knew what I had done, made that same comparison.

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Speaker 6: But it was during that time when the Secret Service

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Speaker 6: called asking for an interview, and when I went to

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Speaker 6: speak with them, I had long hair and I was

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Speaker 6: trying to maintain my appearance that the other students had

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Speaker 6: become custened to with the way the Secret Service was

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Speaker 6: at the time, the spit and polish of that agency,

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Speaker 6: I just didn't fit in, and I tried to explain,

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Speaker 6: but I tried not to also give away what I

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Speaker 6: was doing. They had tried to put an undercover in

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Speaker 6: the same school previous year, and they had tried to

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Speaker 6: work with the administration at the school, but word got out.

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Speaker 6: So in my circumstance, nobody knew anything about who I was.

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Speaker 6: My mother didn't even know what I was doing.

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Speaker 4: So you couldn't even tell the Secret Service that you

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Speaker 4: were undercover. So when you went to this interview, you

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Speaker 4: kind of had like maybe this high school appearance, and

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Speaker 4: they didn't like that, so you couldn't even tell the

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Speaker 4: Secret Service.

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Speaker 6: I told him that I was working undercover, but I

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Speaker 6: didn't want to go any further, not knowing all connections

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Speaker 6: they may have. I mean, it's a couple of hours

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Speaker 6: away from where the school was, but I still didn't

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Speaker 6: want to reveal that I was paranoid enough by myself

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Speaker 6: being in school every day without any cell phone or

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Speaker 6: any way to contact anybody, should I be in an

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Speaker 6: uncomfortable environment.

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Speaker 7: And I was.

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Speaker 6: There were some very weird occasions that took place. At

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Speaker 6: one point, we had a location outside of the city

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Speaker 6: and out in the rural part of Laport County where

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Speaker 6: the Sheriff's Department, the police department, prosecutors and two other

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Speaker 6: operatives in two other high schools where would meet and

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Speaker 6: do our reports. And on one occasion I was studying

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Speaker 6: for a history test and the detective came up to

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Speaker 6: me and said, what are you doing? And I said,

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Speaker 6: I have a test tomorrow that I'm trying to get

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Speaker 6: ready for. And he took the book that I had

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Speaker 6: and threw it in a barrel that was burning stuff,

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Speaker 6: and he said, you don't understand. He said that the

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Speaker 6: kid that you have the identity of was a d student.

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Speaker 6: You can't come in here. Started getting a's all of

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Speaker 6: a sudden, So that wrapped up at the end of

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Speaker 6: the school year. I wrote a letter to the school

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Speaker 6: telling them who I really was and what my purpose was.

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Speaker 6: I never testified in any one of the cases that

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Speaker 6: I did during that time. All of them were settled,

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Speaker 6: I believe pre trial or theives testified.

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Speaker 4: So you were never exposed basically to this operation. That

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Speaker 4: your your identity had never been exposed. By the way,

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Speaker 4: it blows me away that you were like having to

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Speaker 4: do homework, that's a crazy story.

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Speaker 8: I've ever heard.

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Speaker 3: I would will this is not where I thought this

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Speaker 3: was going.

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Speaker 8: For this interesting being.

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Speaker 2: Undercover in high school doing undercovered drug busts is wild.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and probably there were about two thousand kids in

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Speaker 6: this school. It was a pretty large high school. And

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Speaker 6: within a week or two of me being there's someone

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Speaker 6: etched the word narc on my lacker. So you can

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Speaker 6: imagine the panic and paranoia that they already know who

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Speaker 6: I am. And the detective said, hey, they probably do

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Speaker 6: that to ten of the kids. They have no idea,

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Speaker 6: just you know, lay low, keep throwing the hints out

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Speaker 6: there that you're interested in this stuff, but you know,

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Speaker 6: we don't want you to do anything right now. But

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Speaker 6: like I said, that turned about the second day when

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Speaker 6: a guy offered to sell me something in my wood

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Speaker 6: shop class, and so I did it. I paid him

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Speaker 6: And but.

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Speaker 3: So scary I would be. Terri school was scary enough.

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Speaker 4: Imagine being an undercover agent, you know, trying to fetter

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Speaker 4: out some nonsense and having to deal with the thought

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Speaker 4: process nark being written on your locker.

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Speaker 3: Like how scary is that my career?

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Speaker 2: And also how interesting for even students today to know

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Speaker 2: that that's even an option that you know, be careful

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Speaker 2: there could be something looking or someone looking at any bed.

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Speaker 3: You know, that's pretty intense too. I didn't even think

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Speaker 3: that that happened.

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Speaker 6: One thing that happened during the time. I wasn't into

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Speaker 6: the drug culture, so I didn't understand the terminology and

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Speaker 6: what these things look like. And I had an offer

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Speaker 6: to buy Blotterer acid, had no idea what it was.

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Speaker 6: I met a guy. He was also an exchange student

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Speaker 6: from Michigan. I met him at a McDonald's restaurant and

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Speaker 6: he gave me this envelope with five pieces of paper

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Speaker 6: in it had been stained with acid and then dried,

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Speaker 6: and you just eat the paper, apparently, and I licked

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Speaker 6: the envelope. I paid him for it, and I don't

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Speaker 6: really remember what happened after that some of that. The

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Speaker 6: next thing I knew, I was at my home in

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Speaker 6: forty minutes away, and it was a case that we

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Speaker 6: were not able to make. I had to go back

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Speaker 6: and purchase more from that individual. Because I didn't remember

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Speaker 6: anything happened after that.

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Speaker 3: So you can't write a report about it. You don't

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Speaker 3: even remember what happened.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, didn't I report up until the moment that I

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Speaker 6: purchased it and began to leave. I remembered most of that.

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Speaker 6: The next thing I knew, I was back at my

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Speaker 6: residence about forty minutes away.

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Speaker 5: That is absolutely wild and to echo you guys, this

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Speaker 5: is not what I expected either when we sat down.

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Speaker 3: This is a thrilling Thanksgiving.

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Speaker 6: So the next part of my career is the State

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Speaker 6: of Indiana hires me and I get involved in a

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Speaker 6: lot of different types of cases because of my young appearance.

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Speaker 6: I'm working college campuses across the state for narcotics, gambling,

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Speaker 6: alcohol sales, anything that you can think of fake IDs.

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Speaker 6: And one of the cases that I started working on

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Speaker 6: the cover on was a gambling investigation in northwest Indiana

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Speaker 6: up in the Gary Hammond East Chicago area, right on

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Speaker 6: the border of Chicago at the south end of Lake Michigan.

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Speaker 6: And they used to have gambling houses there that would

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Speaker 6: open every other Friday and Saturday, consistent with when the

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Speaker 6: steel mill workers would get paid. The gambling places would

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Speaker 6: only open on those weekends where they were getting paid,

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Speaker 6: and they were underground places, backdoor, and I was able

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Speaker 6: to get into a few of them and get paid

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Speaker 6: off and do some search warrants, and several of those

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Speaker 6: had an impact on interstate commerce and federal law. And

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Speaker 6: during that time when we went to seize everything and

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Speaker 6: arrest everybody. The US Marshals were involved, and one of

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Speaker 6: the guys said, Hey, why don't you come over and

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Speaker 6: take the test, And we're always looking for people. And

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Speaker 6: so in February of eighty six I took the test

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Speaker 6: and in May I have been working for the state

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Speaker 6: again at the Indianapolis five hundred that year. When I

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Speaker 6: returned home from that weekend, I had a message or

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Speaker 6: a letter from the Department of Justice offering me a position.

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Speaker 6: I didn't know where I would go. I had to

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Speaker 6: accept a position very quickly, and on the day after

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Speaker 6: Memorial Day in nineteen eighty six, I was sworn in

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Speaker 6: in the local office and two days later I was

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Speaker 6: on my way to Glencoe, Georgia to the training academy.

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Speaker 6: And I found out at that time that I would

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Speaker 6: be going to San Diego, California.

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Speaker 3: Wow, So Bill, can you walk us through a little bit.

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Speaker 3: That's a huge change.

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Speaker 5: So you moved to San Diego without giving away too

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Speaker 5: many state secrets literally, can you describe what the US

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Speaker 5: Marshall's training is light.

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Speaker 6: Yes, at that time, it was a sixteen week training

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Speaker 6: period that we started that first week of June. It

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Speaker 6: includes about a ten week training period that is standard

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Speaker 6: for every federal law enforcement agency that goes through the

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Speaker 6: training center. It's just a criminal investigator course that deals

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Speaker 6: in all different types criminal investigation, to criminal law and

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Speaker 6: everything that is standard for every federal law enforcement officer

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Speaker 6: or agent that's out there. And then the final few

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Speaker 6: weeks were with the US Marshalls Training Academy, learning their policies,

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Speaker 6: their procedures, their investigative techniques, and how you would apply

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Speaker 6: them in day to day work. Once we got to

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Speaker 6: our district offices.

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Speaker 2: I can't believe the story that I'm hearing right now,

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Speaker 2: just about how you're jumping from very big scary jobs

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Speaker 2: to yet another big scary job. And again, just for

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Speaker 2: our listeners who really rely on the work that you're

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Speaker 2: putting forward on a daily basis. First off, hats off.

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Speaker 2: I'm still stuck in high school. In my head, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: oh my goodness, did you make any friends? Did you

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Speaker 2: feel badly that you had to leave? So here you are,

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Speaker 2: You're in Marshall's office.

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Speaker 3: What happens next?

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Speaker 6: Yeah, I start doing the thing that a normal deputy

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Speaker 6: US Marshall does every day. All new deputies. The first

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Speaker 6: thing you get included in is doing protection for the courts,

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Speaker 6: for the judges, the federal judges in the federal court system,

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Speaker 6: moving prisoners in and out of the court system. In

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Speaker 6: San Diego, we had a high rise prison that was

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Speaker 6: connected through an underground puddel of their office, so we

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Speaker 6: didn't have to do traditional transports in and out they

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Speaker 6: Most of our prisoners were just walked underground from point

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Speaker 6: A to point B into the courthouse and we escorted

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Speaker 6: them every day. I got involved in some witness security

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Speaker 6: things or witness protection program things. I got involved in

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Speaker 6: fugitive stuff probably in my first few months, when my

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Speaker 6: chief deputy offered me a position on a task force

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Speaker 6: that they were forming that was going to be investigating

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Speaker 6: a guy by the name of Thomas Hercules Peppinos. He

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Speaker 6: was a member of the ax Men motorcycle club in

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Speaker 6: San Diego, the El Cahoone area of San Diego, and

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Speaker 6: they were kind of a minor league team for the

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Speaker 6: Hells Angels, and Tom and a number of other people

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Speaker 6: had helped to develop the process for manufacturing methamphetamine in

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Speaker 6: the early eighties and they blew up a place in Takati, California,

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Speaker 6: and because of that, he was now a wanted federal

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Speaker 6: fugitive and he had made an appearance, he had failed

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Speaker 6: to appear, and now it was a Marshall Service case.

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Speaker 6: So he was on our fifteen most wanted list nationally.

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Speaker 6: And when our chief put this task force together, he

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Speaker 6: came to me and he said, listen, I need some

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Speaker 6: new eyes on this thing. If these guys are going

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Speaker 6: in the wrong direction, you know, I need you to

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Speaker 6: be candid in what you think. And so I was

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Speaker 6: put on that and in November of eighty seven, we

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Speaker 6: arrested Tom and his girlfriend wife in a third individual

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Speaker 6: on the indictment in bull Hitz City, Arizona. And it

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Speaker 6: was largely due to the development of an alias that

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Speaker 6: we found that Tom had been using. It was actually

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Speaker 6: in the file. As I reviewed the massive file, the

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Speaker 6: name was in there. We didn't know where it came from.

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Speaker 6: We still don't today. The alas that he was using

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Speaker 6: was Thomas Peter Ducell and so I started investigating that

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Speaker 6: name and I came up with a California driver's license

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Speaker 6: and that led to more information about Thomas Peter Ducell

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Speaker 6: or Thomas Pipinos.

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Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, Well listen, stick around, because when we

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Speaker 5: come back we have more.

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Speaker 3: We have everything from gratitude to grit.

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Speaker 5: We have Bill Cirucus, who's going to take us inside

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Speaker 5: one of the most literally intense man hunts in modern history.

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Speaker 5: It's the Beltway Sniper case. And we're going to talk

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Speaker 5: about the teamwork that helped bring that nightmare to an end.

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Speaker 5: And later, Lowen Kelly joins us to discuss how her organization,

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Speaker 5: Prison Writers, has given individuals an identity.

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Speaker 3: Beyond the crime they commit. Keep it here True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. I'm Stephanie Leidecker here with

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Speaker 2: Courtney Armstrong and Body Move in and Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

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Speaker 2: Listen if you're just joining us, we are here with

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Speaker 2: a very special guest, William J. Cirucus, a former US

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Speaker 2: Marshall who was an agent for decades and did some

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Speaker 2: of the most important work on America's most dangerous cases.

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Speaker 3: And he's caught a few fugitives as well.

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Speaker 8: Body One.

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Speaker 4: I set it up for us. Back in two thousand

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Speaker 4: and two, the country was on edge. Random shootings around Washington,

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Speaker 4: d C. Left people terrified to even pump gas. Imagine

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Speaker 4: pumping gas is a scary thing. But behind the headlines, investigators,

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Speaker 4: including Tonight's guest, former US Marshal William sorocus we're working

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Speaker 4: behind the clock to stop the killing and find out

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Speaker 4: who's doing this. On this Thanksgiving Day, we're remembering the teamwork, courage,

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Speaker 4: and persistence that helped bring that case to an end.

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Speaker 4: The DC sniper attacks were a series of coordinated shootings

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Speaker 4: committed by John Allan Mohammad and Lee Boyd Malvo. It

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Speaker 4: happened over a three week period in October of two

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Speaker 4: thousand and two around the Washington, DC area. The attacks

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Speaker 4: followed earlier murders and robberies in several states, resulting in

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Speaker 4: seventeen deaths ten injuries, and this happened over a period

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Speaker 4: of ten months. John Allan Mohammad was sentenced to death

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Speaker 4: and executed in two thousand and nine, while Malvo, he

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Speaker 4: was a juvenile at the time, he received multiple life sentences,

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Speaker 4: some of which were later vacated upon appeal. So take

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Speaker 4: us back to those moments. What was it like inside

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Speaker 4: law enforcement as the DC sniper case unfolded.

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Speaker 6: Well, US marciall Service got involved in this when the

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Speaker 6: spate of shootings happened in Rockville, Maryland, where there were

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Speaker 6: four or five shootings. One of them took place just

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Speaker 6: across the Maryland line into Washington, d C. So the

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Speaker 6: next it was a Friday morning, we were contacted by

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Speaker 6: the commander with the Montgomery County Police and they asked

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Speaker 6: us to come up. They had been part of our

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Speaker 6: Fugitive task force in the Washington DC area, they knew

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Speaker 6: some of our capabilities. At this time. I was a

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Speaker 6: senior inspector within the Electronic Surveillance Unit. Cell Phones were

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Speaker 6: now a thing that everybody had. Computer technology was being

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Speaker 6: used by criminals, so our specialized unit was good at

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Speaker 6: tracking those communications for wanted people. So they brought us up.

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Speaker 6: They provided a briefing on the previous day shootings and

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Speaker 6: asked us what we could contribute to the case. Had

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Speaker 6: no idea who was doing these things, very little information

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Speaker 6: about suspects, about any commonality between the victims. So we

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Speaker 6: took our information back to our location in Springfield, Virginia

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Speaker 6: and had a little sit down. But as soon as

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Speaker 6: we got back, we were notified of another shooting that

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Speaker 6: had happened down in the Spots of area in Fredericksburg,

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Speaker 6: and that woman actually was shot from about two hundred

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Speaker 6: yards away as she was putting some things in her

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Speaker 6: car outside of a Michael's store, and she survived the shooting.

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Speaker 6: The bullet went through and through and ended up in

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Speaker 6: the front end of her car, and it was very,

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Speaker 6: very quickly connected to the other shootings. A forensic examiner

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Speaker 6: with the ATF by the name of Dandridge was quickly

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Speaker 6: beginning to connect the dots forensically with these shootings, with

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Speaker 6: the fragments and the projectiles that were being recovered from

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Speaker 6: the different scenes. Some of them were not able to

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Speaker 6: be recovered, and so we couldn't position the people as

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Speaker 6: to where they were exactly standing or how they were

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Speaker 6: standing at the time of a shooting. But the gas

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Speaker 6: stations were a focal point because several of these shootings

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Speaker 6: were taking place at gas stations. When people are standing

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Speaker 6: still outside their car pumping gas. You would see it

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Speaker 6: wasn't uncommon during the course of the investigation to see

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Speaker 6: a large tarp covering the customers at a gas station.

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Speaker 6: From the Interstate. They're called the Bailtroy Snipers because most

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Speaker 6: of the shootings were happening at or near major thoroughfares,

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Speaker 6: throughout the Capitolaria region.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I remember seeing the news and the tarps. The

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Speaker 4: tarps were there to basically tide the people that were,

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Speaker 4: you know, pumping gas because nobody knew where these where

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Speaker 4: these bullets were coming from. So this this ballistics person

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Speaker 4: was using the ammunition that was able to be recovered,

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Speaker 4: the casings, the bullet whatnot that were able to be

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Speaker 4: recovered and tied to the same gun.

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Speaker 7: Is that correct, that's correct?

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Speaker 6: Yes, Yeah, Okay, mister Dandridge did that over a period

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Speaker 6: of time. But once once we knew that several of

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Speaker 6: the projectiles were all connected, we we now knew that

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Speaker 6: we had a problem in the DC area.

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Speaker 5: And Bill, I understand first of all, I also remembered

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Speaker 5: what was happening at this time, and it really evoked

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Speaker 5: a fear that I don't remember in recent history, just

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Speaker 5: the randomness of it all and the variance in the

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Speaker 5: victims within this huge multi agency investigation. How did the

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Speaker 5: US Marshalls specifically fit in.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, and the feary you talk about was real because

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Speaker 6: exactly a year earlier, we went through the events of

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Speaker 6: nine to eleven in New York and at the Pentagon,

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Speaker 6: So you know, are we reliving a second wave of

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Speaker 6: something like that. I mean, the investigation went as far

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Speaker 6: as to interview prisoners at Guantanamo Bay to see if

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Speaker 6: they may have any information about what was happening. So

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Speaker 6: the Electronic Surveillance Unit at the US Marshall Service was

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Speaker 6: the primary focal unit at that time for the agency,

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Speaker 6: but we already had established task forces in the DC area,

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Speaker 6: so all of those assets were being redirected to the

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Speaker 6: system Montgomery County. We would also, as the case progress,

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Speaker 6: bring in task force officers from around the country, primarily

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Speaker 6: Los Angeles and New York, who had very large task

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Speaker 6: forces at that time, maybe forty or fifty people from

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Speaker 6: each one of those task forces, including state and local

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Speaker 6: people that were full time participants and sworn in as

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Speaker 6: special deputy US Marshals, much like you would do in

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Speaker 6: the Old West to form your posse. They were sworn

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Speaker 6: in and brought in to be part of that task forces,

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Speaker 6: and that allowed us as the shooting spread out geographically,

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Speaker 6: you had more agencies involved, and it can get very

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Speaker 6: complicated when you have seven or eight agencies that all

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Speaker 6: have in a homicide that they're working kind of independently

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Speaker 6: but hoping to share information. Our strategy was, we're going

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Speaker 6: to put someone at each one of those command posts

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Speaker 6: and bring the information back to us, rather than wait

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Speaker 6: for them to come to us. We put people at

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Speaker 6: each one of those We also had human scent or

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Speaker 6: explosive detection canines that we used for special events like

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Speaker 6: super bulls and high threat security trials, and one of

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Speaker 6: our dogs, his name was Beacon at the time he

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Speaker 6: was his handler was Mike Pyle, who invented the canine

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Speaker 6: detection program. Everything changed in this investigation, or it was

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Speaker 6: ramped up a little bit on October seventh, when Iran

440
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 6: Brown was shot as he was entering the Benjamin Tasker

441
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:31,320
Speaker 6: Middle School in Bowie, Maryland. We had gone without any

442
00:23:31,320 --> 00:23:35,399
Speaker 6: shootings over the weekend since the Friday shooting, and the

443
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:39,240
Speaker 6: chief of police from Montgomery County was Charles Moose. There

444
00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 6: were games canceled, there were soccer matches canceled, any outdoor

445
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 6: activities were canceled over the weekend, and he wanted to

446
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,879
Speaker 6: ensure everybody that children were safe, the community was safe.

447
00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 6: And it's obvious to us now that you know, whoever

448
00:23:53,640 --> 00:23:58,080
Speaker 6: was doing the shootings were monitoring those press statements, because

449
00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 6: when he said your children are safe, and they immediately

450
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,320
Speaker 6: decided that they were going to try and take out

451
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:03,800
Speaker 6: a child.

452
00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 4: This is True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio, where we're talking

453
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:08,280
Speaker 4: true crime all the time.

454
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:09,160
Speaker 3: Happy Thanksgiving.

455
00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:11,440
Speaker 4: I'm Boddy move And and I'm here with Courtney Armstrong and

456
00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,560
Speaker 4: Stephanie Leidecker and we've been talking to William Serucas. He

457
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,400
Speaker 4: is a former US Marshall and we've been talking about

458
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 4: the d C sniper case. So for that case, what

459
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,960
Speaker 4: was the turning point, the clue or lead that helped

460
00:24:23,000 --> 00:24:24,440
Speaker 4: narrow down the suspects.

461
00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:28,760
Speaker 6: There were several different points that helped the investigation. That first,

462
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 6: that shooting of the child I Ran Brown on October seventh.

463
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,240
Speaker 6: It ramped everything up. Now they were shooting at a

464
00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,080
Speaker 6: child and I Ran Brown survived his injuries. But a

465
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,280
Speaker 6: US Marshall Caine I'm by the name of Beacon, was

466
00:24:44,320 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 6: able to find the area in a wooded area just

467
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,960
Speaker 6: to the north of the school where the shooter had

468
00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 6: laid down and shot the young boy. And we were

469
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 6: able to find the cartridge from the expended bullet in

470
00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 6: the matted down area, along with a tarot card, the

471
00:25:03,880 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 6: death card that had a message to law enforcement that

472
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,119
Speaker 6: do not release to the press call me God. So

473
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:16,400
Speaker 6: now we had a communication from them, probably probably the

474
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,119
Speaker 6: next thing that was extremely important to us. And we

475
00:25:19,160 --> 00:25:22,240
Speaker 6: still don't know at this time how many are involved,

476
00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 6: who's involved. The psychological profile from the FBI is telling

477
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 6: us that it's a lone mail, probably about thirty who's

478
00:25:29,280 --> 00:25:33,159
Speaker 6: gone through a recent relationship issue or a loss of

479
00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:38,439
Speaker 6: a job, maybe military background. And everybody's still looking for

480
00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,080
Speaker 6: the elusive white van or white box truck that they

481
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:46,440
Speaker 6: keep releasing to the press. And once once we knew

482
00:25:46,440 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 6: about the white box truck or the van, you saw

483
00:25:48,920 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 6: hundreds of them every day.

484
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:50,800
Speaker 3: Sure.

485
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 6: So the next thing that happens is there's a shooting

486
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 6: on October or October nineteenth down at the Ponderosa Restaurant

487
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:02,359
Speaker 6: in Ashland, Virginia, on an hour and fifteen minutes south

488
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 6: of the DC area. Jeffrey Hopper is shot as he's

489
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 6: walking out of the Ponderosa Restaurant. The bullet goes through

490
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 6: and through. He survives his injuries, but they find the

491
00:26:12,160 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 6: snipers and s there as well in a small wooded area,

492
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:19,280
Speaker 6: and they find a four page note packed to a

493
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 6: tree in Halloween kind of related package. It's a four

494
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,760
Speaker 6: point note, handwritten, and it provides a lot of clues

495
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,680
Speaker 6: to us. It gives us phone numbers of people that

496
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,480
Speaker 6: they have tried to talk to from CNN, the police departments,

497
00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 6: the FBI. It makes plural references we in there. They

498
00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 6: put a credit card in there, an American American Express

499
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:51,920
Speaker 6: credit card in there that they had stolen months earlier

500
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 6: in Arizona that they wanted ten million dollars put into

501
00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:59,520
Speaker 6: an account for. And they kept putting a message out

502
00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:01,920
Speaker 6: there that the police should put a message out that

503
00:27:02,119 --> 00:27:04,639
Speaker 6: they have caught the sniper like a duck in a noose,

504
00:27:05,720 --> 00:27:08,880
Speaker 6: and they wanted the police chief to keep mentioning that.

505
00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:12,880
Speaker 6: So there was all kinds of information going on. One

506
00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 6: of the things in that letter was there was going

507
00:27:15,280 --> 00:27:17,080
Speaker 6: to be a phone call from them the next day

508
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:21,000
Speaker 6: into the ponderosa at six am. The problem was they

509
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 6: didn't open the note until eleven am, and they missed

510
00:27:23,920 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 6: the call. Yeah, law enforcement was outside of the ponduosa

511
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:32,160
Speaker 6: and heard the phone ring, but it had the note

512
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 6: had been flown up to Maryland on a state Police

513
00:27:35,400 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 6: helicopter trying to preserve it for DA and fingerprints and

514
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:45,640
Speaker 6: everything else. Forensically, but they didn't read the contents, so

515
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:50,160
Speaker 6: they put out another message for the guys to call

516
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 6: the next day, which they did. We were able to

517
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:56,320
Speaker 6: trap the number. But at that point we had dissected

518
00:27:56,400 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 6: all of those ins and out calls that were listed

519
00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:01,640
Speaker 6: in that document, and we came up with even more

520
00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:04,080
Speaker 6: than they had mentioned in the letter. We now knew

521
00:28:04,080 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 6: where they were standing at certain times on certain days

522
00:28:08,040 --> 00:28:10,439
Speaker 6: over the past two weeks. We knew they were putting

523
00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:13,560
Speaker 6: coins in the payphones. They weren't using a calling card,

524
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,080
Speaker 6: they weren't using a cell phone. They were standing there,

525
00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 6: they were putting coins in, and we knew through a

526
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,719
Speaker 6: pastor that had got one of the calls, that there

527
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 6: were two men on the phone, one younger, one older.

528
00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 6: The younger one had an accent. We had two detectives

529
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:30,960
Speaker 6: or a deputy US Marshall and a detective from the

530
00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:33,680
Speaker 6: New York State Parole who was connected to the task force.

531
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 6: His name was Vinnie Senzamichi. He had dealt with Jamaican

532
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 6: gangs before, and he noticed some Jamaican connectivity with some

533
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 6: of the wording in those documents. And then we had

534
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:47,360
Speaker 6: the accent of the younger man and so things were

535
00:28:47,360 --> 00:28:54,000
Speaker 6: beginning to fall in place. Later on, in one of

536
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 6: the calls, they mentioned that they committed a robbery in Montgomery.

537
00:29:00,600 --> 00:29:04,080
Speaker 6: Everybody thought it was Montgomery, Maryland. It was actually Montgomery, Alabama,

538
00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 6: where a woman had been killed at the outside of

539
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 6: the liquor store a few weeks earlier, and there were

540
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 6: police in the area when they heard the shot, they

541
00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 6: went over. He had shot one person and killed her

542
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 6: and wounded another woman who's had twenty twenty five surgeries

543
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,680
Speaker 6: over the years to repair the damage to her. But

544
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:30,160
Speaker 6: the person dropped a catalog, a firearms catalog, probably that

545
00:29:30,200 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 6: they had obtained at a gun showing l Passo a

546
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 6: few weeks earlier, and there was a thumb print on

547
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 6: that catalog. That catalog was flown up to Washington, d C.

548
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 6: There was a print on it. And on the Tuesday

549
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:51,400
Speaker 6: morning when everything was happening, Conrad Johnson, a bus driver

550
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:53,880
Speaker 6: in the area, stepped off of his bus at a

551
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,000
Speaker 6: bus stop and was shot and killed. And at the

552
00:29:59,080 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 6: same time, a person up at the task force in

553
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,200
Speaker 6: Rockfield called me and gave me the name of Lee

554
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,880
Speaker 6: Boyd Malvo as the name of the person that the

555
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 6: fingerprint came back to and they told me that they

556
00:30:10,880 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 6: didn't think people at the Task Force were taking the

557
00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:15,280
Speaker 6: name serious. But the guy called me because he knew

558
00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:18,040
Speaker 6: I would jump on it, and I did, and I

559
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 6: started to gather information from immigration and from every police

560
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,240
Speaker 6: department that I could find up in Washington had in

561
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 6: contact with this young man Bellingham to Cooma Pedie, and

562
00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 6: there was a common denominator in there of John Allen

563
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,480
Speaker 6: Williams or John Allen Muhammad, and it took off from there.

564
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:38,880
Speaker 6: There were a couple of other things that happened, but

565
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 6: we developed information about that, putting them in the area

566
00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:45,320
Speaker 6: they had been stopped in Baltimore, got the license plate number,

567
00:30:45,600 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 6: and a number of hours later they're arrested at a

568
00:30:48,120 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 6: rest area in northwest Maryland.

569
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: Wow, Bell, great job.

570
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 7: Listen.

571
00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 2: We have a very special guest with US former US

572
00:30:55,800 --> 00:31:00,200
Speaker 2: Marshall William J. Cirucas Junior, who has been decades of

573
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 2: his life working on some of the most dangerous cases

574
00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 2: in America, including the case of Gianni Versaci, the fashion

575
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: icon whose life was taken by a serial killer. You'll remember,

576
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 2: Andrew Kunnanen william Where should we begin.

577
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 6: Well, to put it in context at this time nineteen

578
00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 6: ninety seven, I was a supervisor in the San Diego

579
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 6: Office of the US Marshals and I was the coordinator

580
00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,480
Speaker 6: of the San Diego Fugitive Group, and that included about

581
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 6: fifty five to sixty investigators from nine or ten agencies,

582
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 6: including the San Diego Sheriff, the San Diego Police Department,

583
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,240
Speaker 6: the FBI, Immigration and Naturalization at that time, so we

584
00:31:40,640 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 6: had a good mix of investigators. And it was probably

585
00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:48,600
Speaker 6: late April early May when I got informed by one

586
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 6: of the San Diego Police detectives that they were doing

587
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:55,360
Speaker 6: a surveillance of an apartment in the North Park area

588
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:58,360
Speaker 6: of San Diego for a homicide that had been committed

589
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 6: in Minnesota. Isn't really that big of a deal at

590
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 6: that point, because we handled hundreds of those a year,

591
00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:08,880
Speaker 6: leads from other jurisdictions on homicide suspects, So with that

592
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 6: by itself, it wasn't that meaningful. But Andrew was from

593
00:32:12,080 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 6: San Diego. He became the suspect and a first homicide

594
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:17,960
Speaker 6: there of a guy by the name of Jeffrey Trail

595
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,920
Speaker 6: who he had had a relationship with in San Diego.

596
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Trail had moved back to the Minneapolis area and

597
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:29,480
Speaker 6: Andrew had traveled back there and killed him and bludgeoned

598
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:31,720
Speaker 6: him with a hammer and rolled him up in a

599
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:34,800
Speaker 6: piece of carpet in the apartment of another acquaintance by

600
00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 6: the name of David Madson. Following that murder, David Madson

601
00:32:38,760 --> 00:32:42,920
Speaker 6: and Andrew Kunanan took off and went north of Minneapolis,

602
00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:46,600
Speaker 6: where Andrew had stolen a gun from Jeffrey Trail's apartment

603
00:32:47,240 --> 00:32:49,400
Speaker 6: and taken a number of bullets with him, as many

604
00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 6: as he could put into the magazine and won in

605
00:32:51,840 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 6: the chamber. He left the remaining box of bullets at

606
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 6: Jeffrey Trail's apartment. They went up north near a lake

607
00:32:58,040 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 6: and he shot David Madson twice and killed him and

608
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:04,600
Speaker 6: left him there and stole his vehicle. The next thing

609
00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:09,120
Speaker 6: we know about Coonana is we recover the David Masson

610
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 6: vehicle in Chicago near another homicide scene now of a

611
00:33:13,280 --> 00:33:17,960
Speaker 6: guy named Lee Miglin, whose wife was the QVC heiress

612
00:33:18,000 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 6: at the time, and she had been away, and Andrew

613
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,280
Speaker 6: had gotten into the house somehow and tied him up

614
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 6: and slid his throat with a garden saw a bo saw.

615
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:33,240
Speaker 6: So the case was escalating on our end. He was

616
00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 6: from San Diego, so we're interviewing friends, relatives. His mom

617
00:33:37,120 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 6: lived there. His dad had fled to the Philippines to

618
00:33:40,480 --> 00:33:43,719
Speaker 6: avoid a fraud case in the United States. He had

619
00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 6: brothers and sisters, but more than that, he had acquaintances

620
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 6: some male friends that took care of him in the area.

621
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,520
Speaker 6: He went to school there. So we were gathering as

622
00:33:53,600 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 6: much background as we could at that point with now

623
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,040
Speaker 6: knowing about three homicides that he was responsible for. When

624
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:03,680
Speaker 6: we knew about the Migland case, he stole Lee Migland's

625
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 6: vehicle because it became necessity to get rid of David

626
00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 6: Madson's car kill Lee Migland, Steel Migland's car, and Migland's

627
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 6: car at that time in nineteen ninety seven had a

628
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 6: one of the phones that was installed and hardwired into

629
00:34:17,880 --> 00:34:21,040
Speaker 6: the car so that into the console area so that

630
00:34:21,080 --> 00:34:24,239
Speaker 6: when you turned the car on, the phone came on. So,

631
00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:27,800
Speaker 6: as I mentioned, the Marshall Service electronic surveillance unit was

632
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 6: becoming very adept at how to trace and track electronic communications,

633
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,600
Speaker 6: including cell phones. In that time, it was a little

634
00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 6: bit different. We needed that phone to be in a

635
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 6: communication talking to someone, to be exchanging information with a

636
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:45,320
Speaker 6: cell site, so there were calls made into the phone.

637
00:34:45,719 --> 00:34:47,880
Speaker 6: We could place him up in the Grand Rapids area.

638
00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 6: We could place him along I ninety four, coming around

639
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:54,799
Speaker 6: Chicago and into Michigan and then into Pennsylvania. We had

640
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:56,960
Speaker 6: reports of him trying to tear the phone out of

641
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 6: the car in a mall in Pennsylvania. But at one

642
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 6: point the media gets a hold of it. And this

643
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 6: is in early May now, and the media gets a

644
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:09,359
Speaker 6: hold of it and puts a message out that he's

645
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:10,560
Speaker 6: being tracked by the phone.

646
00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:12,480
Speaker 7: So out of.

647
00:35:12,480 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 6: Necessity, he needs to dump that car, and he goes

648
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 6: to a small cemetery in New Jersey and he kills

649
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:23,440
Speaker 6: the one of the guys that takes care of the

650
00:35:23,520 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 6: property and steals his truck. He takes him into a

651
00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:30,120
Speaker 6: small basement area. His name was William Reese, takes him

652
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 6: into a small basement area and shoots him in the

653
00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,279
Speaker 6: back of the head. But he's got a two or

654
00:35:34,280 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 6: three hour start before we put everything together in San Diego,

655
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 6: we're just continuing to put everything that we can in

656
00:35:42,239 --> 00:35:45,080
Speaker 6: place in the event that he makes a phone call

657
00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,359
Speaker 6: he asks for money, anything that we can do to help.

658
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 6: The investigation is being headquartered mainly out of Minneapolis because

659
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:53,880
Speaker 6: now he's getting ready to go on to the FBI

660
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,040
Speaker 6: ten Most Wanted List, and the investigator was actually from

661
00:35:57,080 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 6: the Minnesota Bureau of Criminal Apprehension CASSED to an FBI

662
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,040
Speaker 6: task force. So the ten most Wanted case was going

663
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 6: to be headquartered out of Minneapolis, but in reality, in

664
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 6: my opinion, the Chicago office was running everything. So we

665
00:36:12,080 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 6: were a bit behind then, but still putting everything in

666
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,239
Speaker 6: place that you do in a normal fugitive investigation to

667
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 6: just make sure that you've contacted everybody, make sure that

668
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 6: they're going to contact you. On one occasion, we had

669
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,880
Speaker 6: a list that had been recovered from his apartment in

670
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,879
Speaker 6: the North Park area, and we assumed that it may

671
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,640
Speaker 6: be targets or future targets of his, and one of

672
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:38,160
Speaker 6: the names on there was a former police officer, a

673
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,400
Speaker 6: writer by the name of Joseph Wambaugh. He had written

674
00:36:41,440 --> 00:36:44,919
Speaker 6: like Oh Yes, the Onion Field and some other very

675
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:48,120
Speaker 6: popular books over the years. So I actually spoke to

676
00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:50,120
Speaker 6: mister Wambaugh to let him know that his name was

677
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:52,000
Speaker 6: on the list. He lived in the San Diego area,

678
00:36:52,000 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 6: in the downtown area north of downtown, and he said, Hey,

679
00:36:55,120 --> 00:36:57,120
Speaker 6: I just bought a new handgun. I'm ready to use

680
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,520
Speaker 6: it if I have to, you know, So he claimed

681
00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 6: he didn't know. There's some information that maybe Andrew did

682
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,920
Speaker 6: some work at his house at one point, but we

683
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 6: just continued our investigation in San Diego of just identifying

684
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:13,360
Speaker 6: everybody that we could, getting bank records. He had no

685
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 6: money left. Both of his credit cards were totally expired.

686
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,919
Speaker 6: We were surveilling his mom twenty four hours a day,

687
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 6: and at one point we had to move her because

688
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 6: the media became so controlling and where she was living

689
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:30,440
Speaker 6: in National City. So two FBI agents grabbed her one

690
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,520
Speaker 6: day and drove her over toward the Naval Training Center

691
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,359
Speaker 6: on the east end of the San Diego Airport. They

692
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,320
Speaker 6: went in one entrance, drove around the Naval Training center,

693
00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 6: went out on the other end because the press couldn't

694
00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,000
Speaker 6: come onto the base with him, and they took her

695
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 6: up to the Miramar Naval Air Station and she stayed

696
00:37:48,520 --> 00:37:51,120
Speaker 6: on that base until the end of the case.

697
00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:54,080
Speaker 3: Wow, So, Bill, I have a question.

698
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,680
Speaker 5: Are the US marshals would you say they're uniquely equipped

699
00:37:57,680 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 5: to deal with cases that span a whole bunch of

700
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 5: states and jurisdictions.

701
00:38:02,520 --> 00:38:04,839
Speaker 6: And it's kind of a long and involved story there,

702
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 6: But when the agency was created in seventeen eighty nine,

703
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 6: two hundred and thirty six years ago, their primary function

704
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 6: was to support the courts and to provide for the

705
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 6: integrity of the new court system that President Washington had

706
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:20,719
Speaker 6: put in place. Any function of the federal court, a

707
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:24,359
Speaker 6: warrant that is issued for a fugitive, civil process, the

708
00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 6: movement of a prisoner, all is related to court. So

709
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 6: the Martial Service has been that agency that they go to.

710
00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 6: When the FBI became an agency in nineteen oh nine,

711
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 6: and going through the fifties and sixties, they began to

712
00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,800
Speaker 6: take on most of the fugitive stuff. But in nineteen

713
00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:44,799
Speaker 6: seventy nine, a new Attorney General came in and realigned

714
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:48,840
Speaker 6: responsibility between the federal agencies, giving the Marshal Service a

715
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,920
Speaker 6: much broader authority over certain types of fugitives. Probably the

716
00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,000
Speaker 6: most famous case that was turned over at that time

717
00:38:57,080 --> 00:39:00,640
Speaker 6: in October of seventy nine was the of the three

718
00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 6: guys from Alcatraz in nineteen sixty two. It was still

719
00:39:03,719 --> 00:39:06,640
Speaker 6: an active case, it's still active today. When the England

720
00:39:06,640 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 6: brothers and Morris escaped from Alcatraz, So that case and

721
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,759
Speaker 6: thousands of more were turned over to the agency, and

722
00:39:13,800 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 6: that was kind of a turning point in the agency.

723
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,839
Speaker 6: They had to form an investigative element at headquarters and

724
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:24,160
Speaker 6: it took off from there. In nineteen ninety seven, there

725
00:39:24,160 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 6: were probably only twenty or twenty five permanent task forces

726
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:31,239
Speaker 6: of the Marshall Service nationwide. In two thousand and two,

727
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:35,160
Speaker 6: every inch of the United States and all the territories

728
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 6: had a fugitive task Force. Just several years later and

729
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 6: funding and now we're working with thousands of state and

730
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:47,160
Speaker 6: locals that are on these task forces. So any case, state, local,

731
00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,359
Speaker 6: or otherwise the Marshal Service could get their hands on.

732
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 6: The agency has the broadest jurisdiction of any law enforcement

733
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:56,960
Speaker 6: agency in the United States because at the time there

734
00:39:57,040 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 6: was nothing else federally, so Congress gave the authority to

735
00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:04,400
Speaker 6: the Marshall Service to have this broad authority, including the

736
00:40:04,400 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 6: powers of a sheriff, so they can enforce anything locally

737
00:40:08,760 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 6: all the way to the highest federal law that there is.

738
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 6: Whereas the FBI deaatf they are limited in what types

739
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 6: of crimes they can investigate. The FBI can't really get

740
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 6: involved in a homicide case unless they get a request

741
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 6: from a prosecutor to do an unlawful flight investigation. So

742
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:29,279
Speaker 6: that's typically a local case. The Marshal Service can get

743
00:40:29,320 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 6: involved in that immediately. Unlike the sniper case. In about

744
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 6: ninety eight percent of the cases that we work, we

745
00:40:35,239 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 6: know who the fugitive is. We can gather criminal histories,

746
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:42,200
Speaker 6: we can gather police reports, probation reports, pre trial reports,

747
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 6: we can interview people about their conduct and their behavior.

748
00:40:45,880 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 6: In the sniper case, we didn't have any of that,

749
00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 6: so we're working from nothing to try and identify those guys.

750
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:54,960
Speaker 6: But with Andrew Kunanan, he had no criminal history, how

751
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 6: are we going to identify him? Well, again, like we

752
00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:00,799
Speaker 6: mentioned earlier, he had a California driver's and he had

753
00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 6: a thumb print on file. From my understanding, it's the

754
00:41:04,560 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 6: only FBI top ten to one AT poster that's ever

755
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,840
Speaker 6: been issued with a single fingerprint on it, and that

756
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 6: fingerprint would prove to be necessary when they compared it

757
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 6: to a print at a local pawn shop in Florida

758
00:41:17,040 --> 00:41:20,279
Speaker 6: where he had pawned a gold Krueger rand that he

759
00:41:20,360 --> 00:41:25,000
Speaker 6: had stolen from Lee Miglin in Chicago when he got

760
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 6: into his house and eventually killed him.

761
00:41:27,600 --> 00:41:27,839
Speaker 7: Wow.

762
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:30,280
Speaker 3: Do you think there was ever any chance of catching

763
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:31,600
Speaker 3: Andrew alive?

764
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 6: I think there was, But I think Andrew made the

765
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 6: decision very early on how it was going to end.

766
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 6: It's usually up to the individual in these cases, even

767
00:41:39,719 --> 00:41:42,359
Speaker 6: though they're going to be providing an opportunity to walk

768
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:45,120
Speaker 6: into a police station or walk out of a house,

769
00:41:45,360 --> 00:41:48,000
Speaker 6: it's up to that person. I think this was Andrew's

770
00:41:48,000 --> 00:41:50,200
Speaker 6: fate all along. I think from the day that he

771
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,799
Speaker 6: murdered Jeffrey Trail, this is the way it was going

772
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 6: to end. And he saved a couple of bullets for

773
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:58,120
Speaker 6: himself to be used. When he got trapped in the

774
00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,880
Speaker 6: house boat, one of the maintenance guys came over to

775
00:42:01,960 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 6: check it out, heard some rumbling there, saw things strewn

776
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:07,840
Speaker 6: around in the houseboat. At that point, Andrew was on

777
00:42:07,880 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 6: the run. He had been run out of the Colony

778
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,960
Speaker 6: Hotel for failing to pay. He had seen himself on

779
00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 6: America's Most Wanted several times. At this point, he was

780
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 6: just trying to survive and there was such a dragnet

781
00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 6: in that area. I mean, you're surrounded by water and

782
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 6: in two directions, so there's a dragnet out. He's not

783
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:31,680
Speaker 6: getting out of that area, and he had to find shelter,

784
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 6: he had to find ways to eat, He had to

785
00:42:34,239 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 6: commit more crimes in order to sustain his flight. But

786
00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 6: once he was cornered, I think this was the ultimate

787
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,280
Speaker 6: way that this case was going to end. The shooting

788
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:46,680
Speaker 6: of Gianni Versace. It was planned, in my opinion. This

789
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:50,359
Speaker 6: was an individual that he knew or hoped that he

790
00:42:50,400 --> 00:42:54,560
Speaker 6: would attain infamy with with killing. He wanted credit for this.

791
00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 6: He wanted people to see him that day. Otherwise he

792
00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,319
Speaker 6: could have gone into the residence he did betrayal and

793
00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:05,120
Speaker 6: with William Reese and with Lee Miglin. He could have

794
00:43:05,160 --> 00:43:08,759
Speaker 6: walked into Versace's place and done it in there. He

795
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 6: did it in public for a reason. He wanted credit

796
00:43:11,400 --> 00:43:13,399
Speaker 6: for it. He wanted to be the guy. So when

797
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:16,880
Speaker 6: that shooting happens that morning, he flees and one of

798
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 6: Versace's assistants chased the guy a couple of blocks away

799
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,279
Speaker 6: into a parking garage. When police respond, they find the

800
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 6: pickup truck that belonged to William Reese from the cemetery

801
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:33,239
Speaker 6: about a month and a half earlier that where he

802
00:43:33,280 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 6: had changed the license plates. He had stopped in South

803
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 6: Carolina and put different plates on it and continued down

804
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 6: to Miami parked it in that garage. They found clothing,

805
00:43:42,280 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 6: they found a bunch of other information, and we knew

806
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:47,400
Speaker 6: who it was. At that point. It just connected Tunanan

807
00:43:47,440 --> 00:43:50,520
Speaker 6: to the shooting of Versace, finalizing that he was the

808
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:52,799
Speaker 6: only suspect. And then it was a matter of days

809
00:43:52,840 --> 00:43:55,439
Speaker 6: until he was cornered on that house boat and took

810
00:43:55,480 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 6: his own life when he thought probably law enforcement was

811
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 6: coming in. But it was just the care taker.

812
00:44:00,760 --> 00:44:02,960
Speaker 2: And that was one of those cases that we all

813
00:44:03,040 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 2: followed so incredibly closely.

814
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:05,879
Speaker 3: I'm not even sure why.

815
00:44:05,920 --> 00:44:10,160
Speaker 2: I guess because of course Gianni Versaci and just Miami

816
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,799
Speaker 2: Beach being so iconic at that time. Especially Yeah, I

817
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 2: mean again, talk about a dangerous day at the office.

818
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,160
Speaker 3: It's pretty unparalleled.

819
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 2: Then. I know that sometimes public support can only be

820
00:44:21,920 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 2: complicated for an investigation too, but it sounds like the

821
00:44:25,440 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: America's Most Wanted piece of it was really quite helpful.

822
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 2: I know we're on borrowed times, though I won't. I

823
00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:32,880
Speaker 2: know it's a tight question in the end there.

824
00:44:32,680 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 6: But yeah, I've worked with America's Most Wanted since the

825
00:44:35,400 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 6: early nineties. I'm good friends with John Walsh and worked

826
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 6: on the show recently during their last season as a

827
00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 6: consulting producer. It can be helpful, it can be harmful.

828
00:44:44,960 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 6: My experience is, if you know your investigation inside and out,

829
00:44:48,719 --> 00:44:52,480
Speaker 6: you can push the tips away that are meaningless or

830
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 6: for another day, and concentrate on what you know about

831
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:59,560
Speaker 6: the person where they might be. There's a whole lot

832
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 6: of success stories with that. But the information can be voluminous,

833
00:45:03,680 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 6: and it can be overwhelming, and it can lead you

834
00:45:05,760 --> 00:45:08,600
Speaker 6: down the wrong path. Sometimes with Kunana, we were getting

835
00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:10,200
Speaker 6: hundreds of tips every time he was on.

836
00:45:10,640 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 5: Wow, unbelievable. Well, we just want to thank you so

837
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:19,440
Speaker 5: much for being here. Bill Cirucus, Your book Chasing Evil

838
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 5: is available now.

839
00:45:20,920 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 3: Everybody.

840
00:45:21,480 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 5: You can read it, you can listen to it. I'm

841
00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 5: not even sure which I'm more excited to do, maybe both.

842
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,799
Speaker 5: And this book offers an inside look at real life

843
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:34,239
Speaker 5: fugitive hunting, the pursuit of justice. And we've gotten the

844
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 5: pleasure of hearing the amazing experiences that you have been

845
00:45:38,320 --> 00:45:38,719
Speaker 5: part of.

846
00:45:39,360 --> 00:45:41,839
Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for joining us, and again

847
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 2: we wish you and your family an amazing Thanksgiving and

848
00:45:45,640 --> 00:45:48,680
Speaker 2: keep up all the greatness. And again to all the

849
00:45:48,760 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 2: US marshals and police officers and firefighters and FBI workers,

850
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,279
Speaker 2: anybody who is kind of keeping us safe on a

851
00:45:57,360 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: daily basis, whether we know it or not, Please know

852
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:01,319
Speaker 2: that we appreciate you.

853
00:46:01,760 --> 00:46:05,200
Speaker 3: And more on this to come. Happy Holiday everybody.

854
00:46:05,000 --> 00:46:07,160
Speaker 6: Yeah, thank you, and happy holidays everyone as well.

855
00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:11,319
Speaker 5: Coming up, we're joined by the incredible Lowen Kelly. She's

856
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:15,120
Speaker 5: founder of Prison Writers, which is a nonprofit giving incarcerated

857
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:30,040
Speaker 5: people a powerful platform to tell their stories. On Welcome

858
00:46:30,080 --> 00:46:33,240
Speaker 5: back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We are talking

859
00:46:33,280 --> 00:46:37,279
Speaker 5: true crime all the time. I'm Courtney Armstrong. Here is

860
00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 5: always with Body Moven and Happy Thanksgiving everybody. Don't forget

861
00:46:42,719 --> 00:46:44,520
Speaker 5: if you did miss any part of the show, you

862
00:46:44,560 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 5: can always catch the podcast it airs the next day

863
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:52,160
Speaker 5: and listen. Since it is Thanksgiving, it's a day for gratitude,

864
00:46:52,200 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 5: a day for reflection and second chances. We're going to

865
00:46:55,719 --> 00:47:01,600
Speaker 5: shift away from crime scenes and move into redemptions inside

866
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 5: America's prisons, where writing is helping people rebuild their lives.

867
00:47:06,239 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 3: Literally.

868
00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 5: We are so thrilled and honored to be joined now

869
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:15,200
Speaker 5: by journalists and Prison Writers founder Lowen Kelly, and she's

870
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:17,919
Speaker 5: giving it incarcerated men and women the power to tell

871
00:47:17,960 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 5: their own stories. Low and welcome, Thank you, thank you

872
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 5: for having me. Yes, we are so happy that you're here.

873
00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 5: Can you start off and tell everybody how did Prison

874
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,040
Speaker 5: Writers come about? What was that moment that you switched

875
00:47:35,120 --> 00:47:39,839
Speaker 5: from producing TV to publishing this?

876
00:47:41,200 --> 00:47:44,080
Speaker 8: Sure? So one of the documentaries I did was about

877
00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,880
Speaker 8: a guy who I became friends or you know, I

878
00:47:47,920 --> 00:47:49,960
Speaker 8: got to know pretty well, and he went into prison

879
00:47:50,719 --> 00:47:54,560
Speaker 8: and one day he called me really shaken because he

880
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 8: witnessed a guard kill somebody. And I just thought, you know,

881
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 8: you are exaggerating or something. This doesn't happen in America.

882
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:06,120
Speaker 8: I mean, this was back when what happened in prison

883
00:48:06,200 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 8: stayed in prison, and you know, I just thought, this

884
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:13,759
Speaker 8: has to get out, and there has to be somewhere

885
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 8: to give you a voice. So I started this Prison

886
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,920
Speaker 8: Writers by holding a national prison writing contest just to

887
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:23,719
Speaker 8: get some interest. And I was surprised that, you know,

888
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:28,880
Speaker 8: hundreds and hundreds, probably six to seven hundred people wrote

889
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:34,040
Speaker 8: in and that's what started it off. And you know,

890
00:48:34,040 --> 00:48:37,000
Speaker 8: I got to know a lot of the original writers

891
00:48:37,040 --> 00:48:38,440
Speaker 8: that are still with me today.

892
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:42,400
Speaker 4: So tell us about that first writing contest. You expected

893
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:45,280
Speaker 4: maybe a handful of entries, but you've got hundreds.

894
00:48:45,920 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean, I you know, I am. I don't

895
00:48:48,560 --> 00:48:51,799
Speaker 8: exactly remember, but it was it was in between five

896
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,560
Speaker 8: and a thousand, because it sort of staggered, it was

897
00:48:55,600 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 8: sort of But anyway, there were roughly you know, six

898
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 8: to seven hundred letters, and you know what I was

899
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 8: surprised about was that they were very good. Uh, there

900
00:49:09,280 --> 00:49:13,400
Speaker 8: was very quality writing. I really thought I'd get a

901
00:49:13,440 --> 00:49:17,760
Speaker 8: lot of like crazy stuff with you know, scribbling all

902
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,920
Speaker 8: over and had no idea that the quality would be

903
00:49:22,040 --> 00:49:25,480
Speaker 8: so high. And uh, you know, there were some real

904
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 8: natural storytellers, people with some real talent, and and you know,

905
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,760
Speaker 8: people who were smart, uh talking about taking a different

906
00:49:36,040 --> 00:49:39,360
Speaker 8: look at some of the issues that people didn't know about.

907
00:49:40,280 --> 00:49:45,839
Speaker 8: And and it wasn't you know, it wasn't like they

908
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:48,920
Speaker 8: were if you felt you're making stuff up. I mean,

909
00:49:48,920 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 8: these were true stories and they were they were things

910
00:49:52,680 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 8: that had happened to them or that they'd witnessed.

911
00:49:56,719 --> 00:49:59,879
Speaker 5: And why do you think that so many of your

912
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,799
Speaker 5: ended up being people who admitted murder, either as teenagers

913
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 5: or young adults.

914
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:10,359
Speaker 8: It's really interesting, you know, I think it's because it's

915
00:50:10,400 --> 00:50:13,719
Speaker 8: something that you know, it struck me too. I mean

916
00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:17,920
Speaker 8: it lines up with what brain sciences saying, and that

917
00:50:18,080 --> 00:50:20,960
Speaker 8: is that, you know, the part of the brain that

918
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 8: controls impulses is not really fully developed until somebody is

919
00:50:25,840 --> 00:50:27,880
Speaker 8: about twenty five years old. So a lot of crime,

920
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,239
Speaker 8: not not most crime, but a lot of crime is

921
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:36,080
Speaker 8: committed by young people, and they, you know, are the

922
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,400
Speaker 8: most likely to sort of have the capacity to change

923
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 8: because as their brain develops and they you know, get

924
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 8: more risk averse, they think things through, they're not as impulsive,

925
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:55,040
Speaker 8: and they're not sort of as susceptible to fall into

926
00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 8: the crowds group think. And so these people, you know,

927
00:51:02,719 --> 00:51:05,680
Speaker 8: I think are the most likely to change, whereas an

928
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:11,840
Speaker 8: older prisoner going in, you know, is probably you know,

929
00:51:12,560 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 8: more likely sort of a bad.

930
00:51:13,800 --> 00:51:17,680
Speaker 4: Guy in their ways too and stubborn, you know, like

931
00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:20,360
Speaker 4: I'm fifty and I'm probably not going to be changing

932
00:51:20,440 --> 00:51:23,560
Speaker 4: my ways anytime soon. But people who are younger, like

933
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 4: in their twenties or even thirties are more likely to change,

934
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 4: right like.

935
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:32,080
Speaker 8: And it's absolutely true. And it's not even necessarily that

936
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 8: prisons doing the work of that. It's really just the

937
00:51:35,640 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 8: you know, the neuroscience and you know, because anyone who

938
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:47,319
Speaker 8: is sort of rehabilitated is primarily self rehabilitated. So you know,

939
00:51:47,360 --> 00:51:51,320
Speaker 8: these are and the other factors that it's sort of

940
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 8: the saying the same thing about brain sciences, but that

941
00:51:53,760 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 8: you just grow out of crime so as you you know,

942
00:51:57,800 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 8: work your way through your twenties, and you know, you've

943
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:05,280
Speaker 8: been doing this in prison even uh, you know, hanging

944
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 8: out with the same gang on the streets. You're gambling,

945
00:52:09,760 --> 00:52:12,200
Speaker 8: getting in debt, getting beaten up because you're in debt,

946
00:52:12,280 --> 00:52:14,680
Speaker 8: you're trying and doing a lot of drugs and doing

947
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 8: worse drugs, and some of the drugs are incrredibly dangerous,

948
00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 8: and you know, and then you sort of wake up,

949
00:52:20,920 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 8: uh at you know, thirty and realize, like this is exhausting.

950
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,440
Speaker 8: Yeah right, and yeah, yeah exactly.

951
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:33,919
Speaker 3: Are drugs a commodity?

952
00:52:34,000 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 5: You seem like you were surprised to learn sort of

953
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 5: the depth and width of what it sounds like goes on.

954
00:52:41,040 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 8: Yeah, the drugs are more prevalent than they are on

955
00:52:43,760 --> 00:52:44,160
Speaker 8: the street.

956
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:44,920
Speaker 7: For sure.

957
00:52:45,640 --> 00:52:47,800
Speaker 8: They're all right there. You can get all of them anything.

958
00:52:48,239 --> 00:52:51,160
Speaker 8: And you know some of the some of the you know,

959
00:52:51,239 --> 00:52:54,439
Speaker 8: real scary drugs kind of start in prison. I mean

960
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:56,759
Speaker 8: This has been around for a long time, but this

961
00:52:56,960 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 8: K two is really really big in prison everywhere, I

962
00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 8: mean across the board all states, and people you know,

963
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,360
Speaker 8: take it because it really sends them far. You know,

964
00:53:13,440 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 8: it's really puts you in a sort of a zombie state.

965
00:53:18,440 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 8: You can get like really loud and crazy and and

966
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:25,600
Speaker 8: you know a lot of overdose doses, and you know,

967
00:53:25,640 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 8: and then then when somebody like comes close, close, close

968
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,000
Speaker 8: to death and then they recover, people are like, what

969
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:35,160
Speaker 8: he take? I want some of that, you know, you know,

970
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 8: it's just it's so dangerous. But yeah, and you know

971
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 8: what people also don't know is that it's the guards

972
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,640
Speaker 8: who are smuggling them in. It's not like visitors in

973
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 8: the visiting room. And the reason is it's just a

974
00:53:49,080 --> 00:53:53,640
Speaker 8: financial reason. I mean, prison guards make nothing. They're living

975
00:53:53,680 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 8: in you know, the middle of nowhere, usually in rural areas,

976
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,400
Speaker 8: and you know, they they've come from being a manager

977
00:54:00,440 --> 00:54:03,360
Speaker 8: at a shoe store, you know, no no college degree,

978
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:07,320
Speaker 8: and so it's just a it's a terrible job actually,

979
00:54:07,920 --> 00:54:10,239
Speaker 8: and you know, in fairness to them, it really is.

980
00:54:10,960 --> 00:54:15,000
Speaker 8: And so you know, some guy makes some approaches them

981
00:54:15,000 --> 00:54:16,960
Speaker 8: a prisoner and says like you can make a thousand

982
00:54:17,000 --> 00:54:18,919
Speaker 8: dollars if you go pick this bag up and bring

983
00:54:18,960 --> 00:54:22,560
Speaker 8: it to me hidden under your spaghetti, uh, you know,

984
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 8: lunch that you're bringing in, and they make a fast

985
00:54:26,360 --> 00:54:30,800
Speaker 8: fifteen hundred dollars and they can buy their kids, you know, kids,

986
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:32,440
Speaker 8: a Christmas present.

987
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:36,719
Speaker 4: So for those who don't know, K two is like

988
00:54:36,800 --> 00:54:39,440
Speaker 4: that spice, it's the synthetic.

989
00:54:39,280 --> 00:54:44,120
Speaker 8: Cadis marijuana, which is really just separating nothing like marijuana,

990
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:48,040
Speaker 8: nothing like it. Right, Yeah, I mean I'm no expert,

991
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,920
Speaker 8: so I don't really want to adventure, but you know,

992
00:54:51,960 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 8: it's just that people get come really close to death,

993
00:54:58,760 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 8: you know, and some people do die, but there's a

994
00:55:01,360 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 8: lot of overdoses and then you know, semi recovery and

995
00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:05,719
Speaker 8: stuff like that.

996
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:10,239
Speaker 4: So you talk about this ten year rule, what does

997
00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:12,000
Speaker 4: that mean and how have you seen it plan out?

998
00:55:13,080 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 8: It's it's pretty much what I mentioned a little earlier

999
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 8: is that you know, many most of my writers and

1000
00:55:22,160 --> 00:55:25,920
Speaker 8: I didn't really understand this in the beginning, but they were,

1001
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:28,959
Speaker 8: you know, coming in at thirty five years old, they'd

1002
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 8: all been in prison for a couple of decades. They

1003
00:55:31,160 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 8: were all in maximum security prisons, and they'd all committed

1004
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:37,480
Speaker 8: you know not I shouldn't say all, but many of

1005
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,200
Speaker 8: them had committed their crime young, and so they'd been

1006
00:55:40,239 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 8: in for a while. And I really just noticed that

1007
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 8: a lot of them around the ten year mark, you know,

1008
00:55:49,320 --> 00:55:52,319
Speaker 8: give or take a few years, had this sort of

1009
00:55:52,960 --> 00:55:55,960
Speaker 8: you know, epiphany where they were like, you know, I'm

1010
00:55:56,000 --> 00:55:59,880
Speaker 8: this is the next whatever decade or two of my life,

1011
00:56:00,040 --> 00:56:03,439
Speaker 8: and I might as well make something of it. And they're,

1012
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,600
Speaker 8: you know, they sort of maybe see a little bit

1013
00:56:05,600 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 8: of the light at the end of the tunnel. But

1014
00:56:07,200 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 8: you know, this is also true of lifers. They're like,

1015
00:56:10,880 --> 00:56:13,480
Speaker 8: you know, I'm not I'm not getting out, so this

1016
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:16,120
Speaker 8: is it. This is my life, so I might as well,

1017
00:56:16,480 --> 00:56:18,080
Speaker 8: you know, figure it out.

1018
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:23,160
Speaker 5: Wow, Well this is true crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, I'm

1019
00:56:23,280 --> 00:56:27,759
Speaker 5: Courtney here with Body Moving, Happy Thanksgiving everybody. We are

1020
00:56:27,800 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 5: so thrilled to be talking with journalists and prison writers

1021
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 5: Founder Lowe and Kelly. She is giving incocerated men and

1022
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:40,160
Speaker 5: women the power to tell their own stories. So you

1023
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,879
Speaker 5: mentioned that a lot of men tell you you've sort

1024
00:56:43,920 --> 00:56:47,120
Speaker 5: of given them a new identity as writers and not

1025
00:56:47,239 --> 00:56:51,319
Speaker 5: as killers. What does that kind of gratitude feel like

1026
00:56:51,400 --> 00:56:55,080
Speaker 5: to you? Honestly, especially today on Thanksgiving.

1027
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:01,839
Speaker 8: I mean, I guess besides, you know, it's getting a

1028
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 8: window into the humanity of a lot of these men.

1029
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:11,080
Speaker 8: The biggest, bigger surprise was just their gratitude for uh

1030
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 8: like literally writing one story and then getting it published.

1031
00:57:14,960 --> 00:57:17,680
Speaker 8: I mean, they were sort of happy just to send

1032
00:57:17,720 --> 00:57:21,360
Speaker 8: a letter to someone and then the fact they opened it,

1033
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:24,480
Speaker 8: read it, and you know, considered it was good enough.

1034
00:57:25,000 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 8: But and this is back you know when really no

1035
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:31,120
Speaker 8: one was publishing, so it hadn't it was sort of

1036
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 8: unheard of, and so they just you know, the gratitude

1037
00:57:38,240 --> 00:57:42,600
Speaker 8: is because it's giving them you know, as little as

1038
00:57:42,640 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 8: like when somebody googles them, because they certainly know all

1039
00:57:44,880 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 8: about Google. Uh you know, there the stories and prison

1040
00:57:48,840 --> 00:57:52,400
Speaker 8: writers come up and not the kate their case or

1041
00:57:52,440 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 8: their you know, media stories of them back then, and

1042
00:57:57,600 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 8: you know, so they feel like now they're a writer

1043
00:58:00,520 --> 00:58:04,040
Speaker 8: and it gives their day's purpose. They have something you know,

1044
00:58:04,200 --> 00:58:07,960
Speaker 8: meaning to they're getting this voice out. They're explaining what's

1045
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:11,920
Speaker 8: going on in prison or sharing a message, and you know,

1046
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 8: they like having a deadline and you know, they like

1047
00:58:15,080 --> 00:58:18,720
Speaker 8: having a boss. And I do pay them as well,

1048
00:58:18,760 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 8: and really I'll do that. I mean, I'm very like realizing.

1049
00:58:23,280 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 3: It gives them a lot of purpose, right, Like, this is.

1050
00:58:27,040 --> 00:58:30,880
Speaker 8: Absolutely and they're so you know, they're so grateful for that.

1051
00:58:31,040 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 8: And and so the ones that have been doing this

1052
00:58:34,400 --> 00:58:38,320
Speaker 8: for a while, you know, it's really changed their lives.

1053
00:58:38,920 --> 00:58:41,280
Speaker 8: They you know, they get letters from all around the world,

1054
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:48,920
Speaker 8: people you know, noticing them. I use them for uh,

1055
00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,280
Speaker 8: you know, various interviews people want to do with them,

1056
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 8: so they get sort of this outside contact, which is

1057
00:58:56,800 --> 00:59:00,280
Speaker 8: really you know, one of the most valuable things you

1058
00:59:00,320 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 8: could do for somebody inside.

1059
00:59:02,680 --> 00:59:06,560
Speaker 5: That's amazing, and you know what it actually, I feel

1060
00:59:06,600 --> 00:59:09,880
Speaker 5: like there's a parallel when you said that. It feels

1061
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 5: like it's a wonderful feeling when the first thing that's

1062
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:15,920
Speaker 5: googled about you is that you are a writer and

1063
00:59:15,960 --> 00:59:18,320
Speaker 5: not necessarily what you did on the very worst day

1064
00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 5: of your life. And kind of similar in what we

1065
00:59:22,000 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 5: do in true crimes when we interview and work with

1066
00:59:25,680 --> 00:59:29,919
Speaker 5: victims families, it's because they don't want their loved one

1067
00:59:30,040 --> 00:59:34,120
Speaker 5: to simply be what happened to them on their last

1068
00:59:34,200 --> 00:59:37,240
Speaker 5: and you know, often last day of their life.

1069
00:59:37,680 --> 00:59:42,680
Speaker 3: Right, So that's true. I was wondering, are you are you?

1070
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 7: Are you?

1071
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 4: I realized this is probably a new program. Are you

1072
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 4: at all keeping track of any recidivism rates or anything

1073
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:51,280
Speaker 4: like that?

1074
00:59:51,360 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 3: Is this helping?

1075
00:59:52,680 --> 00:59:58,040
Speaker 8: It's well, I think for sure. You know, it helps

1076
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:04,080
Speaker 8: with confidence. I mean, they have more skills a sort

1077
01:00:04,080 --> 01:00:09,280
Speaker 8: of communicating they're not so I mean really truly, like

1078
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 8: one of the best things that anyone in prison can

1079
01:00:12,720 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 8: get is outside contact. It's almost a predictor of success

1080
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:23,160
Speaker 8: because it's not you know, just because they can pick

1081
01:00:23,240 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 8: up the phone and talk to somebody, but it's just

1082
01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:29,240
Speaker 8: it keeps them tied to sort of what's going on.

1083
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:35,720
Speaker 8: They don't get institutionalized. They're hearing about different voices, different lifestyles,

1084
01:00:35,880 --> 01:00:43,520
Speaker 8: and they they have a sense that somebody cares about them. So,

1085
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:47,760
Speaker 8: you know, family and friends often disappear after a couple

1086
01:00:47,720 --> 01:00:51,000
Speaker 8: of years, they really do. Even mothers, you know, they're

1087
01:00:51,040 --> 01:00:53,400
Speaker 8: just like, I've had it. I've visited so many times

1088
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:54,880
Speaker 8: and it's such a bad experience.

1089
01:00:55,080 --> 01:00:56,080
Speaker 3: It's so hard to get there.

1090
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 4: It's like a six hour bus ride or you know,

1091
01:00:59,480 --> 01:01:02,200
Speaker 4: because some of these guys and ladies are really far

1092
01:01:02,240 --> 01:01:05,320
Speaker 4: away from their families too, right, they get shipp around.

1093
01:01:05,560 --> 01:01:09,360
Speaker 8: They are they're there. I mean they're in rural areas,

1094
01:01:10,680 --> 01:01:15,200
Speaker 8: you know, whereas most people, especially people who get in

1095
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:19,959
Speaker 8: trouble are in urban you know, cities, right. So yeah,

1096
01:01:20,040 --> 01:01:21,560
Speaker 8: it's uh.

1097
01:01:21,640 --> 01:01:24,920
Speaker 4: That's really good news because it's really giving them confidence

1098
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:28,720
Speaker 4: so when they do hopefully get out, they're ready to

1099
01:01:28,760 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 4: start their life with this new founded confidence. I think

1100
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 4: the work you're doing is incredibly important, and the men

1101
01:01:34,760 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 4: and women who you're working with, I'm.

1102
01:01:36,120 --> 01:01:37,000
Speaker 3: Sure are very grateful.

1103
01:01:38,440 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 8: Thank you.

1104
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:40,960
Speaker 3: I'm grateful to you on this Thanksgiving.

1105
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 5: Exactly what a great day to be talking about this. Well, listen,

1106
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 5: stick with us because coming up after the break, we're

1107
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:53,160
Speaker 5: going from murder to manuscripts. Two men once written off

1108
01:01:53,320 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 5: entirely by society are finding redemption through writing, and the

1109
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:00,040
Speaker 5: program helping them to do it just might change.

1110
01:01:59,800 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 3: How we see justice.

1111
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:04,040
Speaker 5: Keep it here True Crime Tonight, we are talking true

1112
01:02:04,040 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 5: crime all the time. Welcome back to True Crime Tonight.

1113
01:02:16,920 --> 01:02:20,360
Speaker 5: We're on iHeartRadio. We talk true crime all the time.

1114
01:02:21,040 --> 01:02:25,240
Speaker 5: I'm Courtney Armstrong here tonight with my buddy buddy movin

1115
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:28,439
Speaker 5: And don't forget if you've missed any part of the show,

1116
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,720
Speaker 5: you can always catch the podcast or get us on

1117
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:34,520
Speaker 5: our socials. We are at True Crime Tonight show on

1118
01:02:34,560 --> 01:02:38,320
Speaker 5: TikTok and Instagram and True Crime Tonight on Facebook. It

1119
01:02:38,440 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 5: is Thanksgiving and happy Thanksgiving to everyone in earshot and

1120
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:46,280
Speaker 5: listen tonight we're giving thanks for second chances. So far

1121
01:02:46,360 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 5: we've been speaking with journalists and prison Writers founder Low

1122
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 5: and Kelly. She's giving incarcerated men and women the power

1123
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,880
Speaker 5: to tell their own stories. But now we're so happy

1124
01:02:56,920 --> 01:02:58,400
Speaker 5: to be joined by Andrew.

1125
01:02:58,880 --> 01:02:58,960
Speaker 7: So.

1126
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:04,280
Speaker 5: Andrew is a former Prison Writers contributor and his story

1127
01:03:04,360 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 5: shows just how words can rebuild a life. So welcome Andrew.

1128
01:03:09,120 --> 01:03:10,000
Speaker 7: Hey, how ya doing?

1129
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 3: Hey Andrew, welcome the True Crime Tonight. Happy Thanksgiving.

1130
01:03:13,760 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 7: That's what I appreciate.

1131
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 5: So, Andrew, tell us, how did you first find out

1132
01:03:19,760 --> 01:03:21,200
Speaker 5: about prison writers?

1133
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,040
Speaker 7: Okay, it was a flyer going around. It was like

1134
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 7: a there's a prison writing contest, a writing contest, and

1135
01:03:28,600 --> 01:03:31,640
Speaker 7: I was involved in this other program called Voices Inside,

1136
01:03:32,000 --> 01:03:34,680
Speaker 7: and they passed it rounds. I was like, man writing contests,

1137
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:37,000
Speaker 7: I'm gonna go and shoot my shot, even though I

1138
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:40,480
Speaker 7: wasn't really keen on articles. And it was me, a

1139
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:43,400
Speaker 7: guy named Jeremy Faller, another guy named Derk Trumbo. We

1140
01:03:43,520 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 7: all got you know, got into it like we're gonna

1141
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:48,080
Speaker 7: tell this first person ard, and they wanted She didn't

1142
01:03:48,080 --> 01:03:51,400
Speaker 7: want like articles talking about statistics and all that. She

1143
01:03:51,440 --> 01:03:53,840
Speaker 7: wanted the first person arded to like tell your life

1144
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 7: story and your own personal experiences in prison. At that time,

1145
01:03:57,440 --> 01:03:59,480
Speaker 7: I think I had been in like it was over

1146
01:03:59,480 --> 01:04:01,320
Speaker 7: ten years, almost fifteen years, so I had a lot

1147
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:03,400
Speaker 7: of those stories, like I could just pull those out

1148
01:04:03,440 --> 01:04:05,240
Speaker 7: of a zoo, you know what I mean. So I

1149
01:04:05,280 --> 01:04:07,640
Speaker 7: was willing to share. And yeah, I was more interested

1150
01:04:07,640 --> 01:04:09,920
Speaker 7: in just telling some actual facts because I knew that

1151
01:04:10,840 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 7: I felt as though some people was going to write

1152
01:04:12,640 --> 01:04:15,640
Speaker 7: some mumbo jumbo that wasn't true about prison. So I

1153
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 7: want to come across me and my authentic experience and

1154
01:04:18,280 --> 01:04:21,920
Speaker 7: what I felt. So I wrote it and then when

1155
01:04:21,920 --> 01:04:26,680
Speaker 7: I got there, got top twenty. Okay, yeah, and I

1156
01:04:26,760 --> 01:04:28,440
Speaker 7: was I was happy about that, you know, I mean

1157
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:30,880
Speaker 7: to be I have a published article because I was

1158
01:04:30,880 --> 01:04:34,360
Speaker 7: mainly in playwriting. But I was like a good thing,

1159
01:04:34,840 --> 01:04:36,880
Speaker 7: you know what I mean. And then I wrote a

1160
01:04:36,920 --> 01:04:39,160
Speaker 7: couple more, you know, and it was pretty cool.

1161
01:04:39,520 --> 01:04:40,160
Speaker 3: That's really great.

1162
01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 4: So obviously it's given you a lot of confidence, well

1163
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:45,760
Speaker 4: deserved by the way, but what role did it play

1164
01:04:45,800 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 4: in helping you prepare for life after prison?

1165
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,600
Speaker 7: Oh? Man, Oh well, I mean quite simply, that's where

1166
01:04:51,600 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 7: I'm at right now. I'm at prime in a playoffs

1167
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,600
Speaker 7: and Louis of Kentucky. I'm doing this zoom from her.

1168
01:04:55,640 --> 01:05:00,760
Speaker 3: So stop it, you're doing it, You're actually doing Yeah.

1169
01:05:00,840 --> 01:05:03,680
Speaker 7: Yeah, this is the longest running outdoor theater think in

1170
01:05:03,720 --> 01:05:07,840
Speaker 7: the country, and uh, that's just what's what writing did

1171
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:11,720
Speaker 7: definitely freed me, Like it was the only really released

1172
01:05:11,920 --> 01:05:13,640
Speaker 7: the chills, no joke.

1173
01:05:14,080 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 3: I got the chills.

1174
01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 7: I mean prison writers was a big part of that,

1175
01:05:19,200 --> 01:05:22,960
Speaker 7: because you know, you write plays, you need productions. Yeah,

1176
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 7: you don't really get that that that validation to show

1177
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:27,520
Speaker 7: you that you that you that you're really good. I

1178
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:30,960
Speaker 7: mean that people hear your voice. And then when Law

1179
01:05:31,040 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 7: and published me, I was like, you know, that was

1180
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,560
Speaker 7: that was a pit stop on a long journey that

1181
01:05:35,600 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 7: I needed to be refreshed, and it gave me the

1182
01:05:38,400 --> 01:05:40,560
Speaker 7: energy to pick my pin back up. And you know,

1183
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:42,120
Speaker 7: maybe I didn't do a lot of articles, but did

1184
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 7: a lot of more playwriting, that's for sure, because I

1185
01:05:44,520 --> 01:05:47,120
Speaker 7: felt like, hey, you know, people understand what I'm saying

1186
01:05:47,120 --> 01:05:49,200
Speaker 7: and I'm coming across what I'm trying to convey.

1187
01:05:49,680 --> 01:05:53,040
Speaker 4: Really it was relatable to somebody and it meant something, right,

1188
01:05:53,080 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 4: and that gives you the spirit about you that knows

1189
01:05:56,320 --> 01:05:59,400
Speaker 4: that you can be successful, which is so important when

1190
01:05:59,440 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 4: you're getting out of being institutionalized.

1191
01:06:02,080 --> 01:06:06,880
Speaker 7: Right, It's I just wanted one person, like, yeah, just

1192
01:06:06,880 --> 01:06:10,720
Speaker 7: one person there to like relate to it and understand

1193
01:06:10,760 --> 01:06:13,760
Speaker 7: it and gain some empathy because like writing is a

1194
01:06:13,760 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 7: little skill, but it also teaches you another skill, which

1195
01:06:16,840 --> 01:06:19,720
Speaker 7: is empathy. You know, you put yourself in other people's

1196
01:06:19,760 --> 01:06:22,520
Speaker 7: shoes and try to feel how characters feel and understanding

1197
01:06:23,320 --> 01:06:25,880
Speaker 7: that's the skill that builds the most. So I'm just

1198
01:06:25,920 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 7: grateful for what I learned in my journey and right,

1199
01:06:28,400 --> 01:06:32,080
Speaker 7: and I'm dreamful of flowing because like she was like

1200
01:06:32,120 --> 01:06:35,280
Speaker 7: you know, talking about with the talking about stuff she did,

1201
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:38,480
Speaker 7: but she's really being minus on what the program did.

1202
01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 7: Because the other two people that I named, they're not

1203
01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:44,320
Speaker 7: back in prison either. And like U, it helped my dude, Jeremy,

1204
01:06:44,400 --> 01:06:47,680
Speaker 7: Like he's really intelligent. He's not a writer, but when

1205
01:06:47,680 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 7: he got published, he was really feeling himself, like he

1206
01:06:51,400 --> 01:06:55,120
Speaker 7: was smelling himself, man, you know, I mean he still

1207
01:06:55,720 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 7: still gives me, gives me stuff about that, like I wrote.

1208
01:06:58,080 --> 01:07:02,240
Speaker 9: Run an article and I got published time dragging rights, right, Yeah.

1209
01:07:02,280 --> 01:07:04,320
Speaker 7: And then Trumbo went on and that's what he does now.

1210
01:07:04,360 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 7: He writes, He writes articles. He wrote a popular column

1211
01:07:07,480 --> 01:07:14,000
Speaker 7: called Don't Eat the Candy off your pillow name Yeah, yeah,

1212
01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:16,520
Speaker 7: which will be a dumb ass if you did that,

1213
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:19,040
Speaker 7: but neither he nor there. But yeah, he wrote he

1214
01:07:19,080 --> 01:07:22,160
Speaker 7: wrote that article, and he's doing big things so uh

1215
01:07:22,360 --> 01:07:25,800
Speaker 7: and that as well, because like at that time, we

1216
01:07:25,800 --> 01:07:28,240
Speaker 7: were like all just like sending our stuff out to

1217
01:07:28,960 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 7: different resources. Like you know, I remember for years he

1218
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,360
Speaker 7: tried to get published in this this article. I want

1219
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 7: to say, it's called Suncoast or something something high faluting

1220
01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:41,360
Speaker 7: literary literary journal, and he would always be like, yeah,

1221
01:07:41,360 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 7: I sent them this sci fi short story and could

1222
01:07:44,680 --> 01:07:49,360
Speaker 7: put They never published him, never even sent them a

1223
01:07:49,400 --> 01:07:52,040
Speaker 7: response back, you know. I mean, you know they're probably

1224
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:55,200
Speaker 7: just looking at the envelop eyes got for prisons side

1225
01:07:55,600 --> 01:07:59,920
Speaker 7: and it, you know, and understand its power. And then

1226
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:03,280
Speaker 7: him to get lonhed on other platforms speaks to you know,

1227
01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:04,800
Speaker 7: the part you played it.

1228
01:08:04,880 --> 01:08:06,920
Speaker 3: What's some of the work that you've had published name,

1229
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:08,440
Speaker 3: Let's get some bragging rights.

1230
01:08:09,640 --> 01:08:13,080
Speaker 7: Well, I had a short play called Promised Land louisva Sky.

1231
01:08:13,600 --> 01:08:16,760
Speaker 7: A lot of short play productions are black Boy. I

1232
01:08:16,880 --> 01:08:20,240
Speaker 7: just recently in a play in Lexington at Antagonist Productions

1233
01:08:20,800 --> 01:08:22,400
Speaker 7: when I got out. When I got on the second

1234
01:08:22,400 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 7: of September, so this was that weekend, the next last

1235
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:28,960
Speaker 7: weekend of the month twenty six, twenty seventh, and twenty eight.

1236
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 7: So I got to act in my own play, which

1237
01:08:32,360 --> 01:08:35,040
Speaker 7: was called The Hopeless and the Hopeful, and it was

1238
01:08:35,040 --> 01:08:37,960
Speaker 7: a play about two young men in prison. I guess,

1239
01:08:38,040 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 7: like understanding what love is behind bars with their significant

1240
01:08:42,000 --> 01:08:43,880
Speaker 7: others on the outside come in to grasp with it,

1241
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 7: like what it may mean. You know, one's hopeful that

1242
01:08:47,320 --> 01:08:49,519
Speaker 7: kind of hopefully understand that it could go either way,

1243
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:52,599
Speaker 7: and one's just hopeless. He's just a hopeless romantic, like

1244
01:08:52,640 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 7: you know, anybody shows me a time of day, let's

1245
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:56,320
Speaker 7: get married, you know what I mean? That type.

1246
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 3: Sideways. I'm like, oh, they're interested, you know.

1247
01:09:04,400 --> 01:09:07,960
Speaker 7: Right now? How dare you like my pitch and don't

1248
01:09:08,040 --> 01:09:08,679
Speaker 7: like me? Right?

1249
01:09:09,920 --> 01:09:13,800
Speaker 5: Was that your your first time acting or had you

1250
01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:15,599
Speaker 5: done it before and rekindled it?

1251
01:09:15,680 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 3: That's so cool that you got to act in your

1252
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:18,200
Speaker 3: own play.

1253
01:09:19,120 --> 01:09:20,880
Speaker 7: When you say acting, what do you mean?

1254
01:09:20,960 --> 01:09:23,840
Speaker 5: Like, I'm sorry, I might have misheard you. I thought

1255
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 5: you said that you were in your.

1256
01:09:25,600 --> 01:09:27,280
Speaker 7: Yeah, I was in my play. But there's all different

1257
01:09:27,320 --> 01:09:31,639
Speaker 7: type of acting, you know, acting in church that type

1258
01:09:31,640 --> 01:09:34,400
Speaker 7: of thing, but like actually acting outside and outside production.

1259
01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:38,200
Speaker 7: That was my first time. But I was not feeling

1260
01:09:38,240 --> 01:09:40,120
Speaker 7: a sweat because, like I said, I was working with

1261
01:09:40,160 --> 01:09:43,719
Speaker 7: the voices inside and like it's a writing program inside,

1262
01:09:43,720 --> 01:09:47,000
Speaker 7: and like every July and August we put a play

1263
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 7: on in the prison. We do short plays in the prison,

1264
01:09:50,280 --> 01:09:52,720
Speaker 7: and you know, ain't nothing like performing in front of

1265
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 7: your home crowd. So you know, it's like one hundred

1266
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:59,120
Speaker 7: and sixty inmates pout in the chapel and you're sitting

1267
01:09:59,120 --> 01:10:01,839
Speaker 7: on a chapel stage where the sound goes to die.

1268
01:10:02,120 --> 01:10:04,599
Speaker 7: So you got to really really project your voice and

1269
01:10:04,680 --> 01:10:07,479
Speaker 7: really really shoot, you know, and then you know, and

1270
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,200
Speaker 7: you got people who who've never been to a plan

1271
01:10:10,280 --> 01:10:12,240
Speaker 7: in life, and we get to be the first person

1272
01:10:12,280 --> 01:10:15,799
Speaker 7: to perform for him. Yeah, it was a good times, man.

1273
01:10:15,800 --> 01:10:16,800
Speaker 3: So excellent.

1274
01:10:17,360 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 5: Well, you are listening to True Crime tonight, and I

1275
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:22,840
Speaker 5: hope you are as delighted as I am on this

1276
01:10:22,960 --> 01:10:27,559
Speaker 5: Thanksgiving I'm Courtney. I'm here with Body and we're talking

1277
01:10:27,600 --> 01:10:31,000
Speaker 5: with journalists and prison writer founder Low and Kelly, and

1278
01:10:31,040 --> 01:10:33,360
Speaker 5: we are also now lucky enough to be speaking with

1279
01:10:33,439 --> 01:10:38,160
Speaker 5: Andrew Phillips, who is a published author from Prison Writers

1280
01:10:38,200 --> 01:10:42,519
Speaker 5: as well as many other rights and playwrights. Let's give

1281
01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:45,160
Speaker 5: it up for that. So that's what we're talking about,

1282
01:10:45,200 --> 01:10:47,200
Speaker 5: and I'm to think about all of this.

1283
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,519
Speaker 4: This is a great story. I mean, this is really

1284
01:10:49,760 --> 01:10:52,479
Speaker 4: genuinely a great story. So what do you think is

1285
01:10:52,600 --> 01:10:55,599
Speaker 4: broken in our rehabilitation system? And what can we learn

1286
01:10:56,400 --> 01:10:58,240
Speaker 4: to do it better? What can we do better?

1287
01:10:58,439 --> 01:10:59,000
Speaker 3: What's broken?

1288
01:11:00,240 --> 01:11:01,000
Speaker 8: Where do you start?

1289
01:11:01,280 --> 01:11:04,679
Speaker 3: Probably like a three seven year answer.

1290
01:11:05,760 --> 01:11:09,519
Speaker 7: When you say, I would definitely say it's three forms

1291
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:11,920
Speaker 7: of it. When when you say rehabilitations you mean like

1292
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,720
Speaker 7: when a person's actually incarcerated or.

1293
01:11:15,160 --> 01:11:19,200
Speaker 4: Re entry both actually, because re entry is probably one

1294
01:11:19,240 --> 01:11:22,080
Speaker 4: of the most difficult things, right, I would say probably.

1295
01:11:22,800 --> 01:11:25,280
Speaker 7: So you want to start a re entry or incarceration.

1296
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:25,960
Speaker 3: Let's start with re entry.

1297
01:11:26,840 --> 01:11:29,639
Speaker 7: Okay, well re entry I just got out a month

1298
01:11:30,080 --> 01:11:34,160
Speaker 7: then I'm still mad at different type of sources. So basically,

1299
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:36,840
Speaker 7: when you get out, they give you a lot of

1300
01:11:36,920 --> 01:11:40,200
Speaker 7: numbers to call, you know, this person does this, this

1301
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:44,679
Speaker 7: person does that. But when you call the numbers, those

1302
01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:47,479
Speaker 7: people are just facilitator to give you another number to

1303
01:11:47,520 --> 01:11:49,920
Speaker 7: call to get in contact with the person who has

1304
01:11:49,920 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 7: the resource. And then the person who has the resource

1305
01:11:53,200 --> 01:11:55,400
Speaker 7: is like, Okay, we got your information. We'll get back

1306
01:11:55,400 --> 01:11:57,160
Speaker 7: to you in a week. Here's a problem with that.

1307
01:11:57,479 --> 01:11:59,920
Speaker 7: Most people reaffend within the first seventy two hours.

1308
01:12:00,439 --> 01:12:03,719
Speaker 10: The statistic, right, what the statistics say when I'm inclined

1309
01:12:03,720 --> 01:12:06,560
Speaker 10: to believe that, because it's like I know people and

1310
01:12:06,600 --> 01:12:10,719
Speaker 10: they're already back, you know, I guess like hustling and flowing,

1311
01:12:11,560 --> 01:12:14,080
Speaker 10: and that being said is because like you know, you're

1312
01:12:14,120 --> 01:12:15,120
Speaker 10: jumping through red tape.

1313
01:12:15,120 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 7: You know, you gotta get your food stampads, you gotta

1314
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,320
Speaker 7: get this, services, you gotta get that. And to be

1315
01:12:19,360 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 7: honest with you, I may parole in July. I know

1316
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:24,160
Speaker 7: I was going home sixty days in advance. So for

1317
01:12:24,240 --> 01:12:27,000
Speaker 7: sixty days I sit back, you know, beating my head

1318
01:12:27,040 --> 01:12:30,120
Speaker 7: against the wall, trying to get resources and miss loan

1319
01:12:30,200 --> 01:12:34,320
Speaker 7: over her being super modest, she was a viable resource

1320
01:12:34,360 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 7: to me getting re entries. She helped me set up

1321
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 7: my email, get a phone number so I can start

1322
01:12:38,400 --> 01:12:40,600
Speaker 7: filling out applications, help me get a phone when I

1323
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:43,280
Speaker 7: came home. She was my re entry source, you know,

1324
01:12:43,479 --> 01:12:45,880
Speaker 7: not the re entry aids who just had more numbers

1325
01:12:45,920 --> 01:12:49,479
Speaker 7: for me to call. That's what I relied on, you know,

1326
01:12:50,720 --> 01:12:53,599
Speaker 7: the people in my corner. So them and then I

1327
01:12:53,720 --> 01:12:56,880
Speaker 7: was lucky to this thing they had just started. I

1328
01:12:56,880 --> 01:12:59,840
Speaker 7: would give props to this In KNENTUCKUTYDD started to staying

1329
01:12:59,840 --> 01:13:03,439
Speaker 7: with the iron Workers Local seventy union. Big props to them.

1330
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:06,120
Speaker 7: They came in and they taught us the skill of

1331
01:13:06,200 --> 01:13:09,719
Speaker 7: hard workers and they was real. I got on a Tuesday.

1332
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:12,400
Speaker 7: On a Wednesday, I went for interview, and on Thursday

1333
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:13,040
Speaker 7: I was at work.

1334
01:13:13,320 --> 01:13:17,639
Speaker 8: Wow, Andrews had an amazing opportunity with learning a trade

1335
01:13:17,640 --> 01:13:21,360
Speaker 8: that's just not a big deal, very common, and a

1336
01:13:21,400 --> 01:13:23,080
Speaker 8: specialized trade at that.

1337
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:26,679
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, this is the thing that started with any

1338
01:13:26,720 --> 01:13:29,320
Speaker 7: but sure endorsed it. It was a thing they came

1339
01:13:29,360 --> 01:13:31,320
Speaker 7: in and thought that we was in the first class.

1340
01:13:31,760 --> 01:13:35,040
Speaker 7: And yeah, man, those dudes are real dudes. Yeah, everybody

1341
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:38,160
Speaker 7: else talking about these jobs is cap And I'm be

1342
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:40,360
Speaker 7: the first as to tell you that what I hate

1343
01:13:40,360 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 7: the most is indeed and all these other online people

1344
01:13:44,240 --> 01:13:46,640
Speaker 7: that you try to get job all send you us

1345
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 7: one hundred emails a day. So, hey, we had another

1346
01:13:49,040 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 7: job for you. We found another job for You've never

1347
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:52,719
Speaker 7: a done job for you, like, get out of my email.

1348
01:13:53,680 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 3: Yes, I think your experiences everyone's ex.

1349
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:03,160
Speaker 7: Just so yeah, that's that's yes. I think that's the

1350
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:05,360
Speaker 7: thing that I was talking to a guy in Little

1351
01:14:05,439 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 7: About He asked me the same question, what do we

1352
01:14:07,240 --> 01:14:08,680
Speaker 7: need with re entry? And I was like, we need

1353
01:14:08,720 --> 01:14:11,800
Speaker 7: a scout basically, like and I'm scouting, Like, look, bro,

1354
01:14:11,960 --> 01:14:17,559
Speaker 7: this number her is phony number. Yeah, this person is phony.

1355
01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:20,160
Speaker 7: You beat a month out because I mean, there's people

1356
01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:22,880
Speaker 7: are getting government funding. It's supposed to be for media assistance.

1357
01:14:23,360 --> 01:14:25,360
Speaker 7: And I don't know what their definition of immediate is,

1358
01:14:25,400 --> 01:14:27,800
Speaker 7: but mine is right now, you know what I mean,

1359
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,519
Speaker 7: that day or we can for you out. Amazon can

1360
01:14:30,560 --> 01:14:33,760
Speaker 7: deliver over line overnight. Damn it, you can't do what

1361
01:14:33,800 --> 01:14:36,880
Speaker 7: are we doing? So you know that's how I feel

1362
01:14:36,880 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 7: strongly about it. And uh, you know I can't wait

1363
01:14:39,479 --> 01:14:41,200
Speaker 7: to write about it and tell them I'm going to

1364
01:14:41,200 --> 01:14:43,400
Speaker 7: put their names in it because I feel like if

1365
01:14:43,400 --> 01:14:46,000
Speaker 7: you got that money, then there's a responsibility that you carry,

1366
01:14:46,560 --> 01:14:48,120
Speaker 7: you know what I mean? And here Loan is doing

1367
01:14:48,120 --> 01:14:51,479
Speaker 7: that to kind of so hard, and you know, her

1368
01:14:51,560 --> 01:14:54,400
Speaker 7: belief stepping up for me and what are y'all doing?

1369
01:14:54,680 --> 01:14:54,840
Speaker 6: Right?

1370
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:57,800
Speaker 4: That's a pretty big deal on this Thanksgiving When you

1371
01:14:57,840 --> 01:15:00,120
Speaker 4: think about where you are now, what do you you

1372
01:15:00,760 --> 01:15:02,160
Speaker 4: both most thankful for?

1373
01:15:03,439 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 8: Well, I mean in my you know, big picture, I mean, certainly,

1374
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:11,160
Speaker 8: like I think family is important, but I'm very very

1375
01:15:11,200 --> 01:15:16,800
Speaker 8: grateful that I can give a sense of belonging, you know,

1376
01:15:16,920 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 8: to people inside. I'm also grateful that I've had a

1377
01:15:20,280 --> 01:15:23,360
Speaker 8: chance to meet these people. I mean, I've learned a lot,

1378
01:15:23,479 --> 01:15:26,280
Speaker 8: you know, including from Andrew. And I talk on the

1379
01:15:26,280 --> 01:15:29,200
Speaker 8: phone with a good handful of people on a pretty

1380
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:34,400
Speaker 8: regular basis, and you know they're friends really, And I

1381
01:15:34,439 --> 01:15:37,519
Speaker 8: mean I've learned a lot about patience and resilience and

1382
01:15:37,560 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 8: resourcefulness and you know, human nature and how things can

1383
01:15:43,439 --> 01:15:46,519
Speaker 8: go wrong and how things can go right. And so yeah,

1384
01:15:46,600 --> 01:15:47,559
Speaker 8: I've learned a lot.

1385
01:15:47,880 --> 01:15:51,439
Speaker 3: I'm pretty and Andrew, how about you, I.

1386
01:15:52,640 --> 01:15:59,040
Speaker 7: Don't know, I'm still right Thanksgiving, but however thankful. Yeah,

1387
01:15:59,040 --> 01:16:02,040
Speaker 7: I'm thankful every day. I'm thankful for first and foremost

1388
01:16:02,160 --> 01:16:06,120
Speaker 7: relationship with God. A big believer, and I tell alone

1389
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:08,320
Speaker 7: all the time that you know, it's how I believe

1390
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:11,280
Speaker 7: God works. You know, he works through people. You know.

1391
01:16:11,760 --> 01:16:13,640
Speaker 7: My Bigges scripture that I leaned on the most when

1392
01:16:13,640 --> 01:16:15,760
Speaker 7: I was in our was first John four eight was

1393
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:18,360
Speaker 7: basically say that God is love, and anyone who loves

1394
01:16:18,439 --> 01:16:21,160
Speaker 7: us from God. So thank him for all the people

1395
01:16:21,200 --> 01:16:24,200
Speaker 7: that He's brought in my life, because you know, whether

1396
01:16:24,280 --> 01:16:27,720
Speaker 7: they are willing participants or not, but He works through them,

1397
01:16:28,520 --> 01:16:31,360
Speaker 7: you know what I mean. So I just appreciate my

1398
01:16:31,400 --> 01:16:33,479
Speaker 7: relationship with God and the great people he's put in

1399
01:16:33,479 --> 01:16:36,960
Speaker 7: my life. That young lady right there, especially Lawing, She's

1400
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:41,000
Speaker 7: been a great friend. Yeah, like today we had a

1401
01:16:41,120 --> 01:16:42,479
Speaker 7: we had a crisis today, didn't we.

1402
01:16:43,560 --> 01:16:53,080
Speaker 9: Yeah, yeah, there's new text here you go.

1403
01:16:53,439 --> 01:16:58,240
Speaker 7: Broke my first phone today, you know, and uh yesterday

1404
01:16:58,280 --> 01:17:00,360
Speaker 7: and I was like, I realized that it's a actually

1405
01:17:00,360 --> 01:17:04,200
Speaker 7: your email. You can go back in from that phone.

1406
01:17:04,600 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 7: You should have seen me run around trying to figure

1407
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:11,040
Speaker 7: out how to want Finally I told you to again.

1408
01:17:11,120 --> 01:17:13,720
Speaker 7: The team Obi people are fake. Anyway, I went into

1409
01:17:15,640 --> 01:17:17,840
Speaker 7: and always we can't sell you a phone less we

1410
01:17:17,920 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 7: say you a plan. It's like, what are we doing

1411
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:23,000
Speaker 7: with her? So? Uh, finally this tech guy just got

1412
01:17:23,040 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 7: on my phone and fixed it for me, like so

1413
01:17:25,439 --> 01:17:27,599
Speaker 7: it was amazing. But yeah, so.

1414
01:17:28,160 --> 01:17:30,280
Speaker 5: Well, one more thing that we can be thankful for

1415
01:17:30,439 --> 01:17:32,840
Speaker 5: is tech people who can fix things, because I am

1416
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:36,639
Speaker 5: not one of them. So listen, stick with us, because

1417
01:17:36,680 --> 01:17:39,320
Speaker 5: after the commercial, we are going to be back with

1418
01:17:39,439 --> 01:17:42,639
Speaker 5: Loewen and Andrew and we're going to be talking about

1419
01:17:42,640 --> 01:17:46,680
Speaker 5: how two men have turned their past into purpose and

1420
01:17:46,800 --> 01:17:50,439
Speaker 5: the program that's changing what justic means, what justice means.

1421
01:17:51,120 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 5: Stick around to crime, same, Welcome back to True Crime tonight.

1422
01:18:04,640 --> 01:18:07,719
Speaker 5: We're on iHeartRadio. We are talking true crime all the time.

1423
01:18:07,880 --> 01:18:12,080
Speaker 5: I'm Courtney here with Body Movin. And don't forget if

1424
01:18:12,120 --> 01:18:14,200
Speaker 5: you have missed any part of the show whatsoever, you

1425
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:18,400
Speaker 5: can always catch the podcast. And this Thanksgiving, we are

1426
01:18:18,520 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 5: thankful for stories of change and for people who have

1427
01:18:22,200 --> 01:18:26,000
Speaker 5: transformed their lives through the written word. So we are

1428
01:18:26,080 --> 01:18:29,559
Speaker 5: joined by Lo and Kelly, who has helped hundreds of

1429
01:18:29,560 --> 01:18:34,280
Speaker 5: incarcerated writers find purpose and hope, and we're going to

1430
01:18:34,320 --> 01:18:36,800
Speaker 5: be hearing a couple of them. And then we are

1431
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:44,759
Speaker 5: also joined by Andrew Phillips, writer, playwriter and thespian all

1432
01:18:44,800 --> 01:18:45,360
Speaker 5: in one.

1433
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 3: So welcome, welcome guys, Happy Thanksgiving, Happy Thanksgiving.

1434
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 5: So tell us there was a man named Chris, and

1435
01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 5: I'm going to let you pronounce his last name, so

1436
01:18:56,640 --> 01:18:58,080
Speaker 5: I don't do it to miss justice.

1437
01:18:58,120 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 3: Would you tell us Chris's story?

1438
01:19:00,120 --> 01:19:02,639
Speaker 8: Sure? So the two people I was going to talk

1439
01:19:02,640 --> 01:19:06,479
Speaker 8: about sort of have not dissimilar stories from Andrews too,

1440
01:19:06,600 --> 01:19:09,880
Speaker 8: in the sense that Sean and Kristankovitch is here talking

1441
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:13,759
Speaker 8: about Kristyankovich, who's now thirty seven. He's been in prison

1442
01:19:13,800 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 8: for twenty one years, but he committed his crime at

1443
01:19:16,120 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 8: age fifteen, and he is now getting a little close.

1444
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:24,720
Speaker 8: His sentence was twenty five to thirty seven years. He

1445
01:19:24,760 --> 01:19:28,479
Speaker 8: actually killed his mother, and he came from you know,

1446
01:19:28,479 --> 01:19:31,360
Speaker 8: he didn't have the story of sort of a troubled

1447
01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:33,840
Speaker 8: childhood or a bad childhood. He you know, he has

1448
01:19:33,880 --> 01:19:40,080
Speaker 8: a very stable family, you know, seemingly obviously, and he

1449
01:19:40,120 --> 01:19:43,040
Speaker 8: has just spent the last twenty years, well, first of all,

1450
01:19:43,120 --> 01:19:45,920
Speaker 8: growing up in prison. I mean he had to become

1451
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:49,920
Speaker 8: a man in prison and that and he was, you know,

1452
01:19:49,920 --> 01:19:53,120
Speaker 8: I think through help of outside contacts and people, he

1453
01:19:53,160 --> 01:19:55,760
Speaker 8: you know, sort of knew what life he wanted it

1454
01:19:55,840 --> 01:19:58,839
Speaker 8: to have and didn't really get into too much trouble

1455
01:19:58,880 --> 01:20:02,840
Speaker 8: in prison, but he is now benefiting from some of

1456
01:20:02,880 --> 01:20:06,960
Speaker 8: the changes in laws in various states where they're giving

1457
01:20:07,000 --> 01:20:10,720
Speaker 8: second chances and second looks at people. And you know,

1458
01:20:10,840 --> 01:20:13,840
Speaker 8: he is an example, you know of somebody who you know,

1459
01:20:13,880 --> 01:20:16,920
Speaker 8: you'd think as a monster, and he did, you know,

1460
01:20:17,040 --> 01:20:20,560
Speaker 8: have like a psychotic sort of problem, you know, at fifteen.

1461
01:20:21,080 --> 01:20:23,960
Speaker 8: But he has gone on to you he's become a

1462
01:20:24,000 --> 01:20:28,040
Speaker 8: serious chef, a very very talented writer. He actually I

1463
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:30,559
Speaker 8: think won the contest, and so I've done him a

1464
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 8: long time. You know, he started a lot of programs

1465
01:20:33,400 --> 01:20:38,120
Speaker 8: to help other people. He's remorseful, you know, and it's

1466
01:20:38,240 --> 01:20:41,599
Speaker 8: just it's so hard for me to believe that he

1467
01:20:41,880 --> 01:20:45,639
Speaker 8: is somebody who did what he did. And the only

1468
01:20:45,680 --> 01:20:49,400
Speaker 8: explanation is, you know, he's he's just grown so much

1469
01:20:49,800 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 8: grown up. And this other guy I was talking about

1470
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:57,400
Speaker 8: is Sean Johnson. He's Chris is from Michigan. Shawn's from

1471
01:20:57,760 --> 01:21:02,360
Speaker 8: New Jersey and he's about to get out too. He's

1472
01:21:02,400 --> 01:21:06,439
Speaker 8: made such strides. I mean, he was in, he was

1473
01:21:06,439 --> 01:21:09,320
Speaker 8: with the Bloods. When he was out. He committed his

1474
01:21:09,439 --> 01:21:13,479
Speaker 8: crime at I think nineteen, and now New Jersey's making

1475
01:21:13,520 --> 01:21:16,559
Speaker 8: a point of looking at anyone who has committed their

1476
01:21:16,560 --> 01:21:20,200
Speaker 8: crime under twenty six years old. He was nineteen and

1477
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 8: who had experienced extreme trial tactics, which mean they are

1478
01:21:25,560 --> 01:21:28,360
Speaker 8: given more than twice the sentence of the plea they

1479
01:21:28,439 --> 01:21:32,559
Speaker 8: were offered, so they're now taking another look at it.

1480
01:21:32,600 --> 01:21:37,920
Speaker 8: He was given sixty years and his case is I mean,

1481
01:21:38,040 --> 01:21:39,960
Speaker 8: you know, it's going to sound like, oh, everybody says

1482
01:21:40,000 --> 01:21:42,920
Speaker 8: they're innocent, which is not true. But he it was

1483
01:21:43,040 --> 01:21:46,439
Speaker 8: partly self defense, so it should have been the manslaughter charge.

1484
01:21:46,640 --> 01:21:50,080
Speaker 3: So he was very overcharged, very overcharged, which.

1485
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:50,479
Speaker 8: Is so co.

1486
01:21:52,640 --> 01:21:56,040
Speaker 7: They offered him a thirty year sentence, but he didn't

1487
01:21:56,040 --> 01:21:57,679
Speaker 7: take it, so he took the trout and he got

1488
01:21:57,720 --> 01:22:01,480
Speaker 7: sixty hand for him eighteen years.

1489
01:22:01,640 --> 01:22:04,639
Speaker 8: It was self defense. He took the guy grabbed the gun. Anyway,

1490
01:22:04,640 --> 01:22:07,800
Speaker 8: it doesn't really matter at the case, but he said, no,

1491
01:22:07,880 --> 01:22:11,720
Speaker 8: I want to go to trial. I don't think I everybody, yeah, yeah,

1492
01:22:11,760 --> 01:22:15,360
Speaker 8: I don't deserve that. And I'm sixty. It did two

1493
01:22:15,840 --> 01:22:20,280
Speaker 8: an attempted murder and a murder charged consecutive. And you know, anyway,

1494
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:23,840
Speaker 8: this guy has written five books. He's learned everything about

1495
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:28,040
Speaker 8: finance to teach other inmates how to finances together. He's

1496
01:22:28,040 --> 01:22:33,360
Speaker 8: written books he has one hundred thousand followers on Instagram

1497
01:22:34,000 --> 01:22:36,600
Speaker 8: that he's just from prison and he just has like

1498
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:39,880
Speaker 8: a podcast on YouTube where it is all very inspirational,

1499
01:22:40,640 --> 01:22:45,840
Speaker 8: and yeah, he's just he's so hungry, you know. I

1500
01:22:45,880 --> 01:22:47,800
Speaker 8: had to tell him, like, you've got to slow down

1501
01:22:47,840 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 8: and just like give yourself a break when you get out.

1502
01:22:51,560 --> 01:22:55,800
Speaker 8: He's like, his plans are insane. It's like, slow down,

1503
01:22:55,840 --> 01:23:01,360
Speaker 8: you're making it exhausted. But anyway, guys are perfect examples

1504
01:23:01,400 --> 01:23:04,880
Speaker 8: of just you know, and so as Andrew, you were

1505
01:23:04,920 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 8: what sixteen, Andrew when you fifteen? Yeah, I always think, yeah,

1506
01:23:10,439 --> 01:23:13,840
Speaker 8: and so, you know, these three are just perfect examples

1507
01:23:13,880 --> 01:23:17,759
Speaker 8: of just what growing up does, you know, And obviously

1508
01:23:17,760 --> 01:23:24,840
Speaker 8: they're you know, they've had you know, they I think

1509
01:23:24,880 --> 01:23:27,080
Speaker 8: a lot of it's just growing up in prison, I

1510
01:23:27,080 --> 01:23:30,400
Speaker 8: mean growing up in general in general. I'm sure you

1511
01:23:30,400 --> 01:23:33,280
Speaker 8: would agree with me, Andrew that anyone who's sort of

1512
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:37,200
Speaker 8: rehabilitated or he's doing well, it's not because they were

1513
01:23:37,200 --> 01:23:41,960
Speaker 8: in prison. It's because they self rehabilitated. But anyway, you know,

1514
01:23:42,040 --> 01:23:45,719
Speaker 8: these guys they're great. They're going to do really really

1515
01:23:45,760 --> 01:23:48,400
Speaker 8: well when they get out, and they you know, are

1516
01:23:48,400 --> 01:23:51,920
Speaker 8: determined to help others. And I think that's a pretty

1517
01:23:51,920 --> 01:23:54,639
Speaker 8: common feeling for people when they get out, is they

1518
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:57,200
Speaker 8: want to you know, especially a lot of gang members

1519
01:23:57,240 --> 01:24:00,639
Speaker 8: who get out of gangs, they want to help. Yeah,

1520
01:24:00,720 --> 01:24:02,920
Speaker 8: they want to just prevent other kids from joining.

1521
01:24:04,240 --> 01:24:06,599
Speaker 4: This is Your Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio, where we talk

1522
01:24:06,680 --> 01:24:09,280
Speaker 4: true crime all the time. I'm body move in and

1523
01:24:09,320 --> 01:24:13,040
Speaker 4: I'm here with Courtney and miss Loewen. Now she has

1524
01:24:13,120 --> 01:24:16,920
Speaker 4: created this writer's Guild for partner and we're also joined

1525
01:24:16,920 --> 01:24:20,759
Speaker 4: by Andrew Phillips. He's a playwright. He's a former prisoner,

1526
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:24,040
Speaker 4: he just got out and he's working for a production

1527
01:24:24,160 --> 01:24:27,200
Speaker 4: house and he's writing plays. And we're just being you know,

1528
01:24:27,240 --> 01:24:30,360
Speaker 4: we're having this Thanksgiving show and we're just showing thanks

1529
01:24:30,439 --> 01:24:34,040
Speaker 4: and whatnot for the future and second chances if you

1530
01:24:34,040 --> 01:24:41,599
Speaker 4: want to come up. You're back Andrew for a brief moment.

1531
01:24:41,680 --> 01:24:44,200
Speaker 4: He's got some tech issues. Okay, let's go, let's cut

1532
01:24:44,200 --> 01:24:47,080
Speaker 4: on some flack a little bit. But he's back and

1533
01:24:47,200 --> 01:24:48,559
Speaker 4: figure it out and he's back.

1534
01:24:48,600 --> 01:24:58,840
Speaker 9: See, you're good, You're here, You're you are here exactly.

1535
01:24:59,320 --> 01:25:02,160
Speaker 3: So I have a question for the both of you.

1536
01:25:03,720 --> 01:25:06,240
Speaker 5: Is there a thing that you wish the public understood

1537
01:25:06,280 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 5: about what it really is like in prison and you

1538
01:25:10,880 --> 01:25:13,680
Speaker 5: know from there what redemption can look like. That's a

1539
01:25:13,720 --> 01:25:17,680
Speaker 5: big heavy question, but I'd love any thoughts.

1540
01:25:18,040 --> 01:25:21,880
Speaker 8: Uh, Andrew, do you want to go ahead? There's so

1541
01:25:21,960 --> 01:25:23,080
Speaker 8: much to say about that one.

1542
01:25:23,360 --> 01:25:28,920
Speaker 7: Yeah, yeah, I would say is that if you got

1543
01:25:28,960 --> 01:25:31,400
Speaker 7: a loved one in prison, you don't understand that you

1544
01:25:31,439 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 7: need to reach out to him. Yeah outside, Yeah, you

1545
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,640
Speaker 7: need to reach out to him, you know them if

1546
01:25:37,640 --> 01:25:41,880
Speaker 7: they're still loved And because that's a big part of it.

1547
01:25:43,000 --> 01:25:45,439
Speaker 7: When I say I was seeing people lose themself from prison,

1548
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:48,120
Speaker 7: it's probably mainly because of that. They didn't have anybody

1549
01:25:48,840 --> 01:25:51,479
Speaker 7: on the outside at least write them a letter or

1550
01:25:51,640 --> 01:25:54,439
Speaker 7: you know, you know everybody kee talking about, oh I'm

1551
01:25:54,439 --> 01:25:56,519
Speaker 7: sending money, get three hots in the cut. It's not

1552
01:25:57,360 --> 01:25:59,639
Speaker 7: the money helps like because they don't give you deodor

1553
01:25:59,640 --> 01:26:01,720
Speaker 7: in free in prison, you know what I mean, They

1554
01:26:01,760 --> 01:26:03,800
Speaker 7: give you two pays and soap. You don't get the

1555
01:26:03,880 --> 01:26:07,559
Speaker 7: older you know what I mean? That matters m That

1556
01:26:07,680 --> 01:26:10,280
Speaker 7: helps them, That helps him. You know, I'm not saying

1557
01:26:10,360 --> 01:26:12,719
Speaker 7: carry nobody, send him your whole check, but I'm just saying,

1558
01:26:12,720 --> 01:26:14,680
Speaker 7: you know what I mean that you.

1559
01:26:14,680 --> 01:26:17,000
Speaker 3: Can feel human, you need those things.

1560
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:22,920
Speaker 7: You need, those things that matters. That's the biggest thing

1561
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:24,599
Speaker 7: I want to have people understand is that, like if

1562
01:26:24,600 --> 01:26:29,320
Speaker 7: people just did time, you know, everybody makes mistakes, you know,

1563
01:26:29,439 --> 01:26:33,160
Speaker 7: still love them, you know, Forgiveness is key and the

1564
01:26:33,240 --> 01:26:34,920
Speaker 7: biggest And I guess like the other thing that I

1565
01:26:34,960 --> 01:26:36,720
Speaker 7: want to say, the other shoe on the foot, is

1566
01:26:36,760 --> 01:26:40,840
Speaker 7: that as much as I say, you know, I tell

1567
01:26:40,880 --> 01:26:42,439
Speaker 7: the truth. When I was fifteen years old and I

1568
01:26:42,439 --> 01:26:45,519
Speaker 7: committed my crime, there is a victim's family that feel like,

1569
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:46,880
Speaker 7: you know, I should have never been lawed out of

1570
01:26:46,960 --> 01:26:51,320
Speaker 7: prison or they feel this type of way, And all

1571
01:26:51,360 --> 01:26:54,200
Speaker 7: I can do is just offer my heartfeld sister apologies.

1572
01:26:55,120 --> 01:26:58,559
Speaker 7: But I also say that I live in a way

1573
01:26:58,680 --> 01:27:03,120
Speaker 7: that shows honor to myself and the persons of life

1574
01:27:03,160 --> 01:27:03,479
Speaker 7: I took.

1575
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:06,680
Speaker 4: I have a friend who was in prison and he

1576
01:27:07,240 --> 01:27:09,960
Speaker 4: he committed fellow any murder and he's probably one of

1577
01:27:10,000 --> 01:27:12,200
Speaker 4: the most amazing people I know. And he always tells

1578
01:27:12,240 --> 01:27:14,720
Speaker 4: me that he has to live two lives. He has

1579
01:27:14,760 --> 01:27:18,639
Speaker 4: to live a life for himself and the guy he killed. Right,

1580
01:27:19,160 --> 01:27:21,280
Speaker 4: That's how and that's what he always says. And it's

1581
01:27:21,320 --> 01:27:23,240
Speaker 4: just it always hits me to my core because he

1582
01:27:23,400 --> 01:27:27,679
Speaker 4: literally is the most coolest person I know. And he's

1583
01:27:27,720 --> 01:27:29,200
Speaker 4: just like, yeah, I got to live two lives, you know,

1584
01:27:29,240 --> 01:27:31,040
Speaker 4: I gotta for my victim and me.

1585
01:27:31,240 --> 01:27:33,479
Speaker 3: I got to be the best man I can be.

1586
01:27:34,920 --> 01:27:37,320
Speaker 4: And it's just just brings kind of tears to my

1587
01:27:37,360 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 4: eyes a little bit.

1588
01:27:38,680 --> 01:27:41,360
Speaker 8: I mean, I think one besides just realizing that there's

1589
01:27:41,360 --> 01:27:45,880
Speaker 8: so much humanity and you know, and intelligence in prison

1590
01:27:46,120 --> 01:27:48,960
Speaker 8: with these people, it's it's also just what I've heard

1591
01:27:49,120 --> 01:27:52,599
Speaker 8: because I really am very interested in people's childhood and

1592
01:27:52,720 --> 01:27:55,840
Speaker 8: you know what led them to it, and just you know,

1593
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:59,240
Speaker 8: some have pretty damn good childhood. Is it's it's sort

1594
01:27:59,280 --> 01:28:02,320
Speaker 8: of inexposable that most of them, you know, they have

1595
01:28:02,520 --> 01:28:06,240
Speaker 8: these childhoods where they're some sort of abuse which leads

1596
01:28:06,240 --> 01:28:08,640
Speaker 8: to some sort of substance abuse, which leads to some

1597
01:28:08,800 --> 01:28:12,960
Speaker 8: sort of needing money. Yeah, and it's just like and

1598
01:28:13,040 --> 01:28:14,479
Speaker 8: I look at that, and you know, I think of

1599
01:28:14,520 --> 01:28:18,360
Speaker 8: the things I've done and I'm not, you know, a saint, don't.

1600
01:28:18,920 --> 01:28:21,160
Speaker 8: I've been telling you the whole time, I'm a saint.

1601
01:28:23,880 --> 01:28:25,719
Speaker 8: And I look at you know, I've done some things

1602
01:28:25,800 --> 01:28:27,920
Speaker 8: and I think what, especially when I was young, and

1603
01:28:27,960 --> 01:28:32,559
Speaker 8: I think, like if childhood because I had the perfect child.

1604
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:35,639
Speaker 8: I had a child, I would so be in prison.

1605
01:28:36,400 --> 01:28:39,720
Speaker 8: And I think that really helps, you know me, help

1606
01:28:39,800 --> 01:28:41,280
Speaker 8: me in the beginning, I just like it was like

1607
01:28:43,680 --> 01:28:46,639
Speaker 8: sell drugs, of course, I would, you know. I mean,

1608
01:28:46,680 --> 01:28:49,120
Speaker 8: I'd be like, I'd want money for my you know,

1609
01:28:49,360 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 8: sick sister, you know, medicine or whatever, right, whatever you mean?

1610
01:28:54,560 --> 01:28:57,200
Speaker 4: Right, I mean there's people that are hungry that are

1611
01:28:57,280 --> 01:29:00,679
Speaker 4: stealing baby formulaw because their babies are sick and hungry,

1612
01:29:00,720 --> 01:29:02,280
Speaker 4: you know. I mean it's there are things that you

1613
01:29:02,360 --> 01:29:04,479
Speaker 4: have to do in order to survive in this world.

1614
01:29:04,520 --> 01:29:05,760
Speaker 4: And I would probably do it too.

1615
01:29:06,680 --> 01:29:09,680
Speaker 8: And the other thing is, like, and Andrew, you tell me,

1616
01:29:09,720 --> 01:29:13,879
Speaker 8: I ask all of these guys what percentage of people

1617
01:29:14,040 --> 01:29:16,720
Speaker 8: in prison could get right out, get to get out

1618
01:29:16,800 --> 01:29:19,040
Speaker 8: right now and do okay? And you know, I get

1619
01:29:19,080 --> 01:29:21,240
Speaker 8: sort of come up with like fifteen to twenty percent.

1620
01:29:21,280 --> 01:29:24,120
Speaker 8: And these are people who not necessarily are getting out,

1621
01:29:24,600 --> 01:29:28,760
Speaker 8: but they could because they've they're set up there. They're

1622
01:29:28,800 --> 01:29:30,840
Speaker 8: good people. They're not going to go out and they're

1623
01:29:30,840 --> 01:29:33,240
Speaker 8: going to try hard, try hard to get a job

1624
01:29:33,280 --> 01:29:37,200
Speaker 8: and live a straight life. You know. The granted, there's

1625
01:29:37,240 --> 01:29:41,880
Speaker 8: a huge amount of people who should never get out absolutely,

1626
01:29:42,040 --> 01:29:45,719
Speaker 8: But there are you know, there's just fifteen to twenty

1627
01:29:45,720 --> 01:29:48,280
Speaker 8: percent of most prisons there are you know, people who

1628
01:29:48,320 --> 01:29:50,639
Speaker 8: could get out, and they might not. They probably aren't

1629
01:29:50,680 --> 01:29:54,720
Speaker 8: going to get out. But and you know who knows that.

1630
01:29:54,960 --> 01:29:57,800
Speaker 8: It's the prisoners. You know that they will be on

1631
01:29:57,840 --> 01:30:00,280
Speaker 8: the phone and be like, this guy is get out

1632
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:03,479
Speaker 8: of prison. He's gonna come back in two days. He's

1633
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:08,040
Speaker 8: the biggest hassle, he's horrible. He shouldn't get out. Let

1634
01:30:08,040 --> 01:30:11,280
Speaker 8: the show over here is like a you know, he's

1635
01:30:11,320 --> 01:30:13,920
Speaker 8: not getting out ever. You know, he has two consecutive

1636
01:30:13,920 --> 01:30:16,400
Speaker 8: life sentences and he's the greatest guy in the world,

1637
01:30:16,439 --> 01:30:18,840
Speaker 8: and he would, you know, help people make it a

1638
01:30:18,840 --> 01:30:22,360
Speaker 8: better world. So it's I.

1639
01:30:22,320 --> 01:30:26,559
Speaker 7: Don't know how most places are, but I don't know

1640
01:30:26,600 --> 01:30:31,680
Speaker 7: what the hell the Kentucky pro boys doing. Like like

1641
01:30:31,880 --> 01:30:35,840
Speaker 7: it's so sporadic about who they let out and who

1642
01:30:35,840 --> 01:30:39,760
Speaker 7: they don't let out. Like you'll see one guy go

1643
01:30:39,880 --> 01:30:42,639
Speaker 7: for pro This minute had to write up in fifteen years,

1644
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:44,679
Speaker 7: and a write up is like a disprom re action

1645
01:30:44,760 --> 01:30:47,439
Speaker 7: in prison, which is hard to do because like that

1646
01:30:47,600 --> 01:30:50,400
Speaker 7: means you're dug in a lot of fights. You're you know,

1647
01:30:50,520 --> 01:30:53,160
Speaker 7: you're talking your tail a lot not to get a

1648
01:30:53,160 --> 01:30:55,680
Speaker 7: note right out in fifteen years. So you'll see that

1649
01:30:55,720 --> 01:30:57,160
Speaker 7: guy go off of pro and they'd be like, you

1650
01:30:57,200 --> 01:30:59,400
Speaker 7: know what, come back and seeing some five more years.

1651
01:31:00,040 --> 01:31:02,200
Speaker 7: And then you'll see another dude who like just got

1652
01:31:02,200 --> 01:31:04,879
Speaker 7: out of hole and they're like, oh, go back to society,

1653
01:31:05,560 --> 01:31:08,280
Speaker 7: and I'd be like, what are we doing? What's happening?

1654
01:31:08,360 --> 01:31:11,960
Speaker 7: Like what are we doing? People like we walk around

1655
01:31:12,040 --> 01:31:14,840
Speaker 7: baffle trying to figure this out. And I guess you

1656
01:31:14,880 --> 01:31:17,960
Speaker 7: asked me early about recidivism. The partner's broken. Here's the

1657
01:31:17,960 --> 01:31:20,200
Speaker 7: biggest part that's broken in Kentucky. I can only spick

1658
01:31:20,200 --> 01:31:23,120
Speaker 7: it back Kentucky. That was my experience so real quickly

1659
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:26,559
Speaker 7: they manage you with prison. You go on based on

1660
01:31:26,600 --> 01:31:29,559
Speaker 7: your crime. You get a custody score level. Right, because

1661
01:31:29,600 --> 01:31:32,639
Speaker 7: I was murdered robbery, I had a high custody score level. First.

1662
01:31:33,160 --> 01:31:35,400
Speaker 7: As I did more time in a clear conduct, my

1663
01:31:35,439 --> 01:31:37,920
Speaker 7: custody score level went from like a forty something to

1664
01:31:38,000 --> 01:31:41,040
Speaker 7: a six right, So being in my custoing level was

1665
01:31:41,080 --> 01:31:44,160
Speaker 7: a sixth. That means I was left for community custody.

1666
01:31:44,360 --> 01:31:46,639
Speaker 7: Don't you know, for the last four years I wasn't

1667
01:31:46,680 --> 01:31:49,720
Speaker 7: able to go to a camp, our community, cussy, less

1668
01:31:49,720 --> 01:31:52,720
Speaker 7: restrictive environment, more work experience and out out at that.

1669
01:31:53,560 --> 01:31:57,759
Speaker 7: But they gave me parole and sent me straight to society.

1670
01:31:58,680 --> 01:32:01,240
Speaker 4: Huh Yeah, doesn't make a whole lot of sense, right,

1671
01:32:01,920 --> 01:32:04,479
Speaker 4: You think they would ease you in, right, like let

1672
01:32:04,560 --> 01:32:04,720
Speaker 4: you go?

1673
01:32:05,520 --> 01:32:08,840
Speaker 7: Like so only drug offenders and stuff can go to

1674
01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:13,439
Speaker 7: halfway houses, but we're all going back to society. I understand,

1675
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:17,759
Speaker 7: why not use that transition, that power, to transitional learning

1676
01:32:17,800 --> 01:32:21,280
Speaker 7: experience to get people are reacquainted to what it is.

1677
01:32:21,920 --> 01:32:24,840
Speaker 7: I did a little research on it, Like it's hard

1678
01:32:24,840 --> 01:32:27,400
Speaker 7: to do the research on the recidivism because anybody who

1679
01:32:27,479 --> 01:32:29,760
Speaker 7: goes back into prison, they just throw them into the

1680
01:32:29,800 --> 01:32:35,080
Speaker 7: recidivism paler they can. They don't defentiate who had who

1681
01:32:35,160 --> 01:32:39,240
Speaker 7: had transitional housing and who didn't have transitionalsing. But if

1682
01:32:39,280 --> 01:32:42,880
Speaker 7: I was to put my hat on it, you know,

1683
01:32:42,880 --> 01:32:45,120
Speaker 7: I'm ball headed, so I need a good hat. Has

1684
01:32:45,160 --> 01:32:49,120
Speaker 7: it been my hat on it? I would say transitional

1685
01:32:49,160 --> 01:32:53,720
Speaker 7: housing is extremely lower than those who got out without it,

1686
01:32:53,760 --> 01:32:54,759
Speaker 7: going to camp or nothing.

1687
01:32:55,200 --> 01:33:01,560
Speaker 5: But yeah, well, on behalf of on, behalf of myself.

1688
01:33:01,720 --> 01:33:04,320
Speaker 5: We are so grateful that you guys were able to

1689
01:33:04,320 --> 01:33:07,280
Speaker 5: be here. Owen Kelly, thank you for the work that

1690
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:15,680
Speaker 5: you do. Andrew people writing I know, yeah, thank you

1691
01:33:15,720 --> 01:33:18,240
Speaker 5: so much for sharing your story or experience and for

1692
01:33:18,320 --> 01:33:22,240
Speaker 5: being here. And you can read more stories and support

1693
01:33:22,280 --> 01:33:25,760
Speaker 5: the program. I think that's a great thing to do

1694
01:33:26,360 --> 01:33:29,920
Speaker 5: at prisonwriters dot Com. And as we wrap up this

1695
01:33:29,960 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 5: Thanksgiving special day, we are reminded gratitude isn't just about

1696
01:33:34,200 --> 01:33:36,120
Speaker 5: what we have. It is about what we can give,

1697
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:38,720
Speaker 5: and from all of us at your Creds Night, we

1698
01:33:38,760 --> 01:33:43,000
Speaker 5: wish you warm, safe, meaningful Thanksgiving Next