Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here
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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show.
Speaker 3: Today.
Speaker 1: As we mentioned before, is October seventh. That means it
Speaker 1: is the anniversary of the October seventh Comas attacks.
Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and put this.
Speaker 1: Up on the screen. Our producer Griffin compiled some of
Speaker 1: the most striking and shocking images from that day. You
Speaker 1: can see rockets being fired. This is from Gaza City.
Speaker 1: You can see these images and I don't know if
Speaker 1: you guys remember where you were or how you felt
Speaker 1: learning this news, but I just remember being absolutely shocked.
Speaker 1: Here you can see one of probably the most notable images,
Speaker 1: which is Palestinians using a bulldozer to take down part
Speaker 1: of the barbed wire fence raise a wire fence surrounding Gaza.
Speaker 1: The way that this attacked unfurled, they were able to
Speaker 1: use commercial drone technology to take out some of the
Speaker 1: surveillance systems and the automatic there's automatic weapons trained in
Speaker 1: facing in at Gaza. They were able to take that out.
Speaker 1: Then they were able to infiltrate Israel, taking over two
Speaker 1: hundred hostages. You can see this elderly woman who has
Speaker 1: taken hostage and they're driving her back to Gaza. You
Speaker 1: can also see very quickly the beginning of the response
Speaker 1: from Israel. This is they blew up multiple apartment towers
Speaker 1: here in Gaza City. And it's also kind of heart
Speaker 1: wrenching to see. This is also Gaza City the most
Speaker 1: structures they are still intact. Of course, now here we
Speaker 1: stand a year later, and you know all you would
Speaker 1: see in Gaza scenes of just total and complete annihilation.
Speaker 1: So Hamas succeeds in this attack, I think beyond their
Speaker 1: wildest expectations. At the end of the day, we can
Speaker 1: put this up on the screen. You have some twelve
Speaker 1: hundred individuals who were killed, six hundred ninety five Israeli civilians,
Speaker 1: three hundred and seventy three who were IDF and seventy
Speaker 1: one foreigners. Now we've since learned that some number of
Speaker 1: those We have no idea how many. All indications are
Speaker 1: that an overwhelming majority were killed by Hamas and affiliated groups,
Speaker 1: but some number of them were also killed by the
Speaker 1: IDF instituting the so called Hannibal directive. And it appears
Speaker 1: that Hamas succeeded beyond their wildest expectations because of massive
Speaker 1: Israeli security failures leading up to that day. For one thing,
Speaker 1: you had a number of IDF troops who were repositioned
Speaker 1: to the bank to protect effectively rampaging settlers there.
Speaker 3: That was part of the project of.
Speaker 1: You know, Smo Church and Ben Givier and these Netnyahuu
Speaker 1: coalitional partners. You had a group of women, idea of
Speaker 1: soldiers who were you know, doing the surveillance in Gaza.
Speaker 1: They were, you know, looking at spotting within Gaza and
Speaker 1: say hey, they're planning for something big, and they were
Speaker 1: ignored and not listened to. There were actual the actual
Speaker 1: plans that the Israeli government were able to get their
Speaker 1: hands on in advance. That they also didn't believe because
Speaker 1: they didn't think that Hamas had that level of capability.
Speaker 1: And in terms of the world stage, you know, at
Speaker 1: that point, Sagur the Palestinine cause was basically forgotten. Trump
Speaker 1: had struck these Abraham Accords, where basically the deal was,
Speaker 1: we're going to make these security deals with Golf States
Speaker 1: to effectively forget about caring about Palestinians, and that was
Speaker 1: cited as part of the motivation for Hamas to engage
Speaker 1: in the extraordinary attack on Israeli society that really shook
Speaker 1: that country to the core. Now what we have seen
Speaker 1: since then has been just scenes of devastation and annihilation
Speaker 1: and terrifying escalation into a broadening war that even the
Speaker 1: greatest cynic myself included, I don't think really could have imagined.
Speaker 1: After Ox October seventh. You know, anyone with a brain
Speaker 1: knew that the response was going to be brutal and barbaric,
Speaker 1: because we've seen what Israel has done in the past
Speaker 1: when they've gone in in these mo the lawn type operations,
Speaker 1: but we've never seen anything quite like this. Let's go
Speaker 1: ahead and put the next graphic we have. I believe
Speaker 1: it's D four the number of Palestinians who were killed.
Speaker 1: To be honest with you, we really don't know. These
Speaker 1: are the official numbers. This is courtesy of Euromed Monitor
Speaker 1: the official number is fifty two hundred and ninety two
Speaker 1: killed in Gaza. A majority of them have been women
Speaker 1: and children. By the way, I want to say, you know,
Speaker 1: there's this sort of shorthand of assuming that only the
Speaker 1: women and children are innocent. Of course, there are many
Speaker 1: innocent men who are also killed as part of this,
Speaker 1: but some experts, many experts, believe that the number is
Speaker 1: a lot higher than this. You have no ability of
Speaker 1: Western journalists, very little ability of aid workers to come
Speaker 1: in and operate and actually assess what the true death
Speaker 1: toll here is in the Gaza strip. Let's put this
Speaker 1: next piece up on the screen. There's a group of
Speaker 1: doctors and healthcare workers that recently pend a letter about
Speaker 1: the horrors that they have seen unfolding there. And they
Speaker 1: write this letter and the appendix show probitive evidence that
Speaker 1: the human tole in Gaza since October is far higher
Speaker 1: than is understood in the US. It is likely that
Speaker 1: the death toll from this conflict is already greater than
Speaker 1: one hundred and eighteen thousand, that is an astonishing five
Speaker 1: point four percent of Gaza's population. They also write in
Speaker 1: this letter that there is effectively not a single person
Speaker 1: in Gaza who is not sick or injured in some way.
Speaker 3: After a year of this just.
Speaker 1: Utter campaign of annihilation and this horrific onslaught, it's not
Speaker 1: that we haven't known what's going on either, not just
Speaker 1: because of the work of brave doctors such as these,
Speaker 1: but also because of the idea of soldiers themselves who
Speaker 1: have gone around on social media routinely bragging about the
Speaker 1: war crimes that they have committed in the Gaza strip.
Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and play guys.
Speaker 1: D three Al Jazeera put together a documentary that was
Speaker 1: just about the idea of soldiers who were posting through
Speaker 1: it and bragging. Here they're bragging about the burning of
Speaker 1: a Palestinian neighborhood, saying this is what we will do.
Speaker 1: Not a memory will be left of them. We will
Speaker 1: annihilate them to dust. I'm sure you've seen some of
Speaker 1: these images before. This is a Palestinian who is blindfolded
Speaker 1: and being beaten and dragged. You can see these images
Speaker 1: of the station. He says, look at it. We're going
Speaker 1: to show you his back. He was tortured to make
Speaker 1: him speak. Lots of people say that the Israeli forces
Speaker 1: shouldn't be allowed to take phones into combat. But this
Speaker 1: expert says, listen, I'm actually glad they do, because at
Speaker 1: least it gives us some window into what's happening here.
Speaker 1: And sager, that's part of what has been uniquely horrifying,
Speaker 1: is it's all there for the world to see. And
Speaker 1: yet you know, our government has consistently turned a blind
Speaker 1: eye pretend, you know gas let us tried to pretend like,
Speaker 1: oh no, we care about international law, we care about
Speaker 1: these humanitarian goals, we care about US law, I mean
Speaker 1: our government. Now we've had plenty of evidence and reporting
Speaker 1: to convince everyone that our government is knowingly violating our
Speaker 1: own laws about continuing to ship weapons to Israel, given
Speaker 1: what they have done in the Gaza strips, specifically the
Speaker 1: fact that they we have State Department reports that prove
Speaker 1: that they were in fact inhibiting aid, keeping aid from
Speaker 1: getting to what is now a starving population. And so
Speaker 1: now we sit here a year later, and as I said,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't think that the greatest cynic could
Speaker 1: have possibly imagined what would unfold in that time, and
Speaker 1: that it would still be ongoing now with no in insight.
Speaker 3: I think for.
Speaker 2: Israel, it was just clear immediately afterwards, when Biden gave
Speaker 2: that famous speech and he's like, look, you have two choices.
Speaker 2: You can do what we did after nine to eleven,
Speaker 2: and you can escalate this and turn this into a
Speaker 2: generational style conflict which could eventually subsume and destroy you
Speaker 2: in the long run, or you know, you can deal
Speaker 2: with this in a more targeted manner. It was clear
Speaker 2: what they decided to do, both for political purposes but
Speaker 2: also in terms of where we stand right now with
Speaker 2: the expansion of the war against Hezbola against Eiron. But
Speaker 2: also I think this has revealed a lot about the
Speaker 2: American political system. It's been very clarifying to me. You know,
Speaker 2: everyone talks about APAC. I think ADL may arguably be
Speaker 2: one of the organizations. I finally understood its purpose and
Speaker 2: all that groundwork that they laid on censorship previously, working
Speaker 2: with the Facebook, Google, YouTube, and all of those others,
Speaker 2: so that they could kick into gear to serve their
Speaker 2: true master. Whenever October seventh happen, not only in the
Speaker 2: protest movement but just generally, we've seen mass censorship happen
Speaker 2: all across the US. But most importantly, I've just seen
Speaker 2: the entire political system become completely obsessed with this foreign nation,
Speaker 2: which at the end of the day is not that
Speaker 2: important to the United States. Hundreds of billions of dollars
Speaker 2: likely lost now from the US our own soldiers, three
Speaker 2: of whom who died, don't forget that, on the Jordanian
Speaker 2: border with Syria. Also the two aircraft carriers. But the
Speaker 2: general political orientation around this conflict and the complete obsession.
Speaker 2: You probably saw that Lindsay Graham clip where he's like,
Speaker 2: I'm here in South Carolina responding to this hurricane, but
Speaker 2: we can't forget about our friends in Israel. It's like
Speaker 2: that it was so I don't I always suspected it
Speaker 2: was there, but to see it like so openly and
Speaker 2: nakedly has been really disturbing for me.
Speaker 1: To go back to some of what we've seen unfold
Speaker 1: over the course of the past year. And it's if
Speaker 1: you remember, if you go back to the early phases
Speaker 1: of the war, they'd engage in these long like Israelis
Speaker 1: to engage in these long propaganda campaigns to justify like
Speaker 1: attacking a hospital, right, And it seems almost quaint at
Speaker 1: this point because now at this point, the entire medical
Speaker 1: infrastructure has been destroyed, not to mention schools, refugee camps, everything,
Speaker 1: everything is basically destroyed. We can put D seven up
Speaker 1: on the screen showing the number of buildings that have
Speaker 1: been destroyed in the Gaza strip. I mean, it's just
Speaker 1: there's virtually nothing left. Two thirds two thirds of all
Speaker 1: of the structures mosques, churches, hospitals, schools, apartment buildings, private
Speaker 1: homes two thirds destroyed, one hundred and sixty three thousand
Speaker 1: different buildings damage or flatten. A third of those actually
Speaker 1: were high rises. And we had reporting from plus nine
Speaker 1: seven to two magazine early on about how part of
Speaker 1: their impetus, part of the strategy here was to intentionally
Speaker 1: target civilian infrastructure with the idea of if we cause
Speaker 1: enough pain to the civilian population, then maybe they'll rise
Speaker 1: up against Hamas. Obviously, there is no predicate in history
Speaker 1: of that actually happening. What happens instead is that they
Speaker 1: hate you more. And what happens instead is you create
Speaker 1: more people who want to kill you and who are
Speaker 1: terrorists and have militant ideology. But that has not stopped
Speaker 1: the campaign of utter annihilation because BB Netanyahu and the
Speaker 1: rest of the Israeli government establishment, they needed to bring
Speaker 1: some win after this tremendous security failure. They needed to
Speaker 1: bring some wind these Raeli people. And the wind is
Speaker 1: basically like blood and death and destruction.
Speaker 3: That's the win.
Speaker 1: That's why you see their soldiers bragging about it without impuna.
Speaker 1: I remember all the conversation about like why don't they
Speaker 1: just take their phones? You know, why are they doing this?
Speaker 1: And it's because it's popular. These soldiers who post these things,
Speaker 1: they are celebrated at conferences throughout Israel.
Speaker 3: They are cheered.
Speaker 1: This is finding exactly the audience that they want. And
Speaker 1: the other goal is for Israel to, you know, in
Speaker 1: the very clinical terms, re establish deterrence, meaning prove that
Speaker 1: they can be even more brutal and barbaric than anyone
Speaker 1: else in their quote unquote neighborhood. And so you know,
Speaker 1: that's what we've seen. Just to give a sense of
Speaker 1: the grim, death toll and horror unfolding there, Euromed Monitor
Speaker 1: put together this map of mass graves within the Gaza Strip.
Speaker 1: What you see is some selected number of unmarked mass
Speaker 1: graves that now exist in the Gaza Strip. They're over
Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty newly established mass graves across Gaza strip.
Speaker 1: It's a landscape of death, that's what it is. And
Speaker 1: we've watched it on TikTok, We've seen it in our
Speaker 1: social media folds.
Speaker 3: We've seen it.
Speaker 1: Sometimes occasionally few images on television. You know, certainly if
Speaker 1: you watch you know, Al Jazer or other non Western media,
Speaker 1: you've seen these images. So no one can say they
Speaker 1: didn't know what was going on. No one can say
Speaker 1: that they weren't aware of the level of atrocities. And yet,
Speaker 1: you know, you continue to have the US government pretending
Speaker 1: like they don't know and like, oh, this is just
Speaker 1: Israel defending themselves, which is utterly preposterous. Now the war
Speaker 1: has expanded, there have been threats from the beginning of
Speaker 1: effectively we're going to turn Lebanon into Gaza, and Israeli
Speaker 1: is now making good on that threat.
Speaker 3: You've had.
Speaker 1: In just the past couple of weeks, two thousand Lebanese killed.
Speaker 1: We don't know how many are has a lot, how
Speaker 1: many are civilians. We do know there are quite a
Speaker 1: large number of women and children also among these deaths.
Speaker 1: We also know that in just the strike that was
Speaker 1: used to take out I shouldn't say strike, the strikes
Speaker 1: that were used to take out the Estrallo is the
Speaker 1: head of Hesbola. They dropped more bunker buster bombs in
Speaker 1: that one strike than we used in the entirety of
Speaker 1: the Iraq invasion. In that one strike, over eighty two
Speaker 1: thousand pound bunker buster bombs to get one guy. So
Speaker 1: the bombing of Lebanon continues, the bombing of Gaza continues,
Speaker 1: and you know, in terms of the there was a
Speaker 1: lot of conversation early on about the quote unquote day
Speaker 1: after in Gaza could put D nine up on the screen.
Speaker 1: You know, they're finally becoming pretty clear about what the
Speaker 1: plan is here, this is your island, talking about how
Speaker 1: this new plan that is gaining a lot of traction
Speaker 1: within Israel of hey, we're going to close off all
Speaker 1: of northern Gaza and we're going to say you have
Speaker 1: to leave. So once again, these people have been displaced before.
Speaker 1: Now you know, let's displace you again. Let's ethnically cleanse
Speaker 1: this whole area. And if you don't go, we're just
Speaker 1: going to assume you are a quote unquote terrorist and
Speaker 1: we're going to murder you. And once this area has
Speaker 1: been cleansed, then we can come in and as certain
Speaker 1: control of course, we know there have been conferences attended
Speaker 1: by uh Lacud party ministers and other government allies in
Speaker 1: which they're planning out specifically how they're going to resettle
Speaker 1: the entirety of the Gaza strip. You have a huge
Speaker 1: invasion in the West Bank, you have even they're talking about, hey,
Speaker 1: let's establish a buffer zo, let's go ahead and take
Speaker 1: some Elebanon's territory while we're at it. And so again,
Speaker 1: the most cynical projections of genocide, ethnic cleansing and all
Speaker 1: the rest at this point in time undeniable that whether
Speaker 1: that was the goal at the beginning or not among everyone,
Speaker 1: that is certainly.
Speaker 3: Where things are heading.
Speaker 1: And we all just shouldn't lie that those plans have
Speaker 1: widespread acceptance and support within the State of Israel. And yes,
Speaker 1: there is protests within the State of Israel, because the
Speaker 1: hostages at this point have been completely forgotten, completely erased
Speaker 1: from bb NANYAHUO even pretending to care for them. But
Speaker 1: has there been outcries about the brutality with which Palestinian
Speaker 1: civilians have been treated, about this massive death toll, about
Speaker 1: the campaign of complete annihilation, Not much, very little, very
Speaker 1: very little upset about.
Speaker 2: That, especially compared to Ukraine, right in terms of the
Speaker 2: way that the initially the US support for Ukraine and
Speaker 2: all that was sold to US. So I think that
Speaker 2: there's a lot to it be said, you know, and
Speaker 2: revealed about US foreign policy and our own objectives, and
Speaker 2: also about the realignment of the world on the Ukraine
Speaker 2: in Israel front and the way that our own words
Speaker 2: will be looked at in the future. But a lot
Speaker 2: of it really just comes back to this whole idea
Speaker 2: of like what American power is used for, what the
Speaker 2: American media is used for, what our own politics are
Speaker 2: captured by, and then very inconvenient facts and others account
Speaker 2: against that that are just dropped and that are not
Speaker 2: emphasized in favor of something is just a very your agenda.
Speaker 1: Here in the US, we're facing you know, bombing of
Speaker 1: Bay Route, and we're facing this massive escalation vis a
Speaker 1: vis Iran. These are some of the you know, massive
Speaker 1: bombing campaigns that are going on right now, Israel bombing
Speaker 1: the city of Bay Route. You have a huge portion
Speaker 1: of the Lebanese population at this point that is also
Speaker 1: completely displaced. And again, you know, US government saying this
Speaker 1: is all fine, and Israel has a right to defend itself. Reminder,
Speaker 1: Hesbola and Lebanon had nothing to do with October seventh,
Speaker 1: and yet here we are. So where we are now
Speaker 1: is basically waiting to see how Israel is going to
Speaker 1: respond to Iran's response to their latest provocations. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's all this debate in the US about which which
Speaker 1: assets should Israel strike. The israelis promising some sort of
Speaker 1: overwhelming response which could certainly plunge the entire region into
Speaker 1: a war, which would certainly drag US into that war,
Speaker 1: given that the FIDE administration has made it clear that
Speaker 1: we would back up Israel on that front. Joe Biden,
Speaker 1: who's barely sentient at this point, got asked about Israel
Speaker 1: potentially striking Iranian oil infrastructure, which would obviously be quite
Speaker 1: significant given how much of the Iranian economy is reliant
Speaker 1: on that oil infrastructure. Let's take a listen to his
Speaker 1: less than impressive response.
Speaker 4: Word discussion, I think that would be a little anyway.
Speaker 1: His answer is, I think that would be a little anyway. Yeah, cool, great,
Speaker 1: great response.
Speaker 3: His brain is completely cooked.
Speaker 2: It's crazy. The whole thing is totally nuts. And I
Speaker 2: mean it's one of those where his both ffecklessness and
Speaker 2: his dementia are like the worst case scenario at this
Speaker 2: point because it's both a blank check and an incoherent
Speaker 2: ability to articulate any boundaries or any of that. Like
Speaker 2: even a more pro Israel president I'm just convinced would
Speaker 2: be at least somewhat more like sentient and is command
Speaker 2: to the facts. Here where this whole like, oh well,
Speaker 2: we're discussing that, and anyways, it's like, what what.
Speaker 3: Are we possible? It just bails out.
Speaker 2: It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy, esecially in the context of
Speaker 2: put this next one up there, because this is so
Speaker 2: nuts from I mean, the report is here from the
Speaker 2: Jerusalem Post the US to give Israel quote compensation if
Speaker 2: it hits acceptable targets in Iran. So instead of withholding
Speaker 2: any resources in response for not doing what we think
Speaker 2: that they should do with our weapons, we would instead
Speaker 2: crystal pay them and offer them a quote compensation package
Speaker 2: if they do what we desire. And also, you know,
Speaker 2: by the way, in this response, these weapons will be ours,
Speaker 2: these planes and all these will be ours. If they
Speaker 2: do hit it and there's a response, we will be
Speaker 2: the ones who are ultimately incurring the costs, So that
Speaker 2: seems like plenty of compensation if you were to just.
Speaker 1: Ask me, why should the Israelis take this seriously? They're like,
Speaker 1: we already get everything we want from you, Well more
Speaker 1: can you give us?
Speaker 3: So No, we're good.
Speaker 1: We got everything we need, and we know you're going
Speaker 1: to continue to ship us everything we need. So we're
Speaker 1: going to do whatever the hell we want to do
Speaker 1: because that's what we've been doing the entire time. We
Speaker 1: also got some troubling answer from Donald Trump about whether
Speaker 1: Israel should target or runs nuclear facilities. Lest you think
Speaker 1: that we have a better, less hawkish war anti war
Speaker 1: choice on the ballot this fall, let's take a listen
Speaker 1: to what he had to say.
Speaker 5: Biden says that Israel should not target Iranian nuke facilities.
Speaker 4: What are your thoughts on that? What should Israel respond?
Speaker 6: I mean, that's the craziest thing I've ever heard. It's
Speaker 6: the biggest risk we have. The biggest risk we have
Speaker 6: is nuclear. I mean to make this statement, please leave
Speaker 6: their nuclear alone. I would tell you that that's not
Speaker 6: the right answer. That was the craziest answer, because you
Speaker 6: know what, soon they're going to have nuclear weapons and
Speaker 6: then you're going to have problems, and he.
Speaker 1: Of course has always been extremely hawkish when it comes
Speaker 1: to ron assassinating a costum soul of money, something that Jadie.
Speaker 3: Vance once criticized him for sure different chores.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I haven't heard that critique from Jade Vance in
Speaker 1: a while, but.
Speaker 4: Obviously we do.
Speaker 2: He's supposed to critique. He's running me.
Speaker 1: Obviously, the belligerence towards Iran continues to this day, even
Speaker 1: going beyond what Joe Biden has said would be appropriate
Speaker 1: in terms of an Israeli response. Also worth just taking
Speaker 1: note that the Israeli bombardment of Lebanon continues.
Speaker 3: We can put this up on the screen.
Speaker 1: Lebanese authorities have said that that those Israeli bombs have
Speaker 1: killed fifty health workers in the past four days, as
Speaker 1: Israeli fighter jets continue to attack medical facilities, mosques and
Speaker 1: other buildings that they claim are being used by Hesbala militants.
Speaker 3: Same playbook what we saw with regard.
Speaker 1: To Hamas you know, disclaim, oh they've got an office
Speaker 1: in the hospital, so we're going to you know, we're
Speaker 1: going to take over the hospital. We're going to destroy
Speaker 1: the hospital, We're going to displace all the civilians there,
Speaker 1: we're going to you know, arrest the doctors, et cetera.
Speaker 1: Same playbook here, the civilians are being used as human
Speaker 1: shields quote unquote. The mosque is really a you know,
Speaker 1: Hesbala militant.
Speaker 3: Officer, et cetera, et cetera. And so that's where we are.
Speaker 1: The last thing that I'll point out here can put
Speaker 1: this up on the screen is you know, it's it's
Speaker 1: not obviously we're not causing Israel to pay any sort
Speaker 1: of a.
Speaker 3: Price for what they've done to the Gaza strip or
Speaker 3: throughout the region.
Speaker 1: But this was an interesting note picked up here in
Speaker 1: Al Monitor. On the sidelines of a golf meeting, Saudi
Speaker 1: foreign minister said, we intend to close the book on
Speaker 1: disagreements with the Run forever and develop relations between us
Speaker 1: like two friends around in Saudi Arabia or swell.
Speaker 3: Arch rivals buried the hatchet in.
Speaker 1: Twenty twenty three, following eight Chinese mediated The deal helped
Speaker 1: to re establish diplomatic relations as well as gives Saudi
Speaker 1: Arabia some protection against attacks by Yemen's Iran backed Huthis. However,
Speaker 1: Golf states remained spooked by comments made by US President
Speaker 1: Joe Biden that Israel's and discussions to attack Iranian oil installations.
Speaker 1: Golf leaders worry that their own energy assets may now
Speaker 1: be exposed to Iranian tit for tat proxy attacks by
Speaker 1: Houthis as well. So I mean, basically they're looking at
Speaker 1: this gloves off approach from the US, the fact that
Speaker 1: Israel is, you know, just operating with absolute impunity. They're
Speaker 1: becoming worried about their own assets. They also have to
Speaker 1: worry about you and their own population, which is very
Speaker 1: very pro Palestinian. And so you know, the Chinese and
Speaker 1: the Israelis have helped you accomplish something that would have
Speaker 1: been seen as far fetched previously, which is this Saudi
Speaker 1: Arabia Iran reproach.
Speaker 2: Mop Yes, And I think it's actually quite interesting because
Speaker 2: it just highlights what I was talking about earlier about
Speaker 2: the diplomatic realignment and how things can be really working
Speaker 2: against the US. If you consider all the damage that
Speaker 2: was brought to our reputation both with the invasion of
Speaker 2: Iraq and the subsequent fallout of that, the Israel situation
Speaker 2: has turned it up by fifty. It also just shows
Speaker 2: you the stupidity of thinking that you can resolve all
Speaker 2: of this just through some grand power politics with the
Speaker 2: Abraham Accords, like the Saudis are going to act that
Speaker 2: was in their best interests and everybody always thinks that
Speaker 2: they're all real politic. No, they have to satisfy the
Speaker 2: most Islamic hardcore population in the world. They and their
Speaker 2: population is looking on what's that, But what's happening in
Speaker 2: Legaza and in Lebanon every single day. That's why they're
Speaker 2: here in this partnership with Iran. So if you think
Speaker 2: you can just buy the Saudi's offer any of that,
Speaker 2: it's just not going to happen. There's nothing about their
Speaker 2: past warm policy that indicates that, and if anything, is
Speaker 2: just further isolating us from any potential to be able
Speaker 2: to resolve this or whatever in the future. And it
Speaker 2: also tells you that where for years they were some
Speaker 2: of the most belligerent people against Iran, but in this case,
Speaker 2: look what they're doing. You know, it just tells you
Speaker 2: about where the US falls on the side of this. Well,
Speaker 2: so it's terrifying.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't think the US or Israel is probably
Speaker 1: excited about, you know, helping us foster this.
Speaker 3: This new alliance.
Speaker 1: And you know, there's a lot of other things that
Speaker 1: long term are going to be a problem for Israel.
Speaker 1: There's pulling domestically within Israel. Some quarter of their population
Speaker 1: is just thinking of leaving the country because it's you know,
Speaker 1: bebing Netnyah who has helped to make it a much
Speaker 1: more dangerous play place in spite of all of the
Speaker 1: you know, rhetoric about from Joe Biden about how it's
Speaker 1: the only place Jews are safe. I think Jewish Americans
Speaker 1: are probably much safer, not probably definitely much safer on
Speaker 1: these supposedly very dangerous American college campuses than they are
Speaker 1: in Israel right now. So you have a significant portion
Speaker 1: of the population, especially among secular Jews, who are thinking
Speaker 1: of leaving. You've had a massive economic hit. You have
Speaker 1: a country that is increasingly becoming more hard line and
Speaker 1: more isolated on the global stage, where you know, increasingly
Speaker 1: we are their only friend. Even Crown and France like
Speaker 1: briefly floated in arms embargo before completely collapsing. But the
Speaker 1: fact that you see even that being floated at this
Speaker 1: point from a European country is noteworthy in and of itself.
Speaker 1: There you go, all right, We're gonna go ahead and
Speaker 1: get to Gabe Sherman, who is standing by fantastic media
Speaker 1: reporter who has now he's on with a movie, The Apprentice,
Speaker 1: about the origin story of a man we all know
Speaker 1: some love, Donald Trump.
Speaker 3: Let's get to that.
Speaker 1: So we're now joined by Gabriel Sherman. He is a
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair special correspondent, also author of the New York
Speaker 1: Times bestseller The Loudest Voice in the Room, and as
Speaker 1: I just mentioned, is out with a new movie on
Speaker 1: the origin story of Donald Trump called The Apprentice, which
Speaker 1: will be in theaters nationwide this Friday. Welcome Gabe, Nice
Speaker 1: to have you here.
Speaker 4: Good see man, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and take a look.
Speaker 1: We got a little bit of the trailer of this
Speaker 1: movie to give people a little taste.
Speaker 3: Let's go ahead and take a look at that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, this is Donald Trump from mister Cohne. Thank you
Speaker 4: so much. Donald Who roy Ton, nice to meet you.
Speaker 3: As you roy Ton, You're brutal.
Speaker 4: If you're indicted, you're invited. I know I'm talking. You
Speaker 4: have a yes, you got to work on that.
Speaker 6: Your face look like annoying.
Speaker 4: You have to be willing to do anything.
Speaker 1: To win, all right, So, for better or worse, This
Speaker 1: is a man we all know very intimately at this point,
Speaker 1: more than we ever wanted to know about him. So
Speaker 1: what did you want to communicate in this film that
Speaker 1: is that we don't already know about Donald Trump?
Speaker 4: Yeah, well it's a great question.
Speaker 5: I think, you know, you you talk about things that
Speaker 5: we know that really I think was referring to information.
Speaker 5: I think what's so revelatory about this movie is that
Speaker 5: it is an experience. This is not about if you
Speaker 5: want to learn facts about Donald Trump. Anybody can read
Speaker 5: Wikipedia and find out information. This Really this movie is
Speaker 5: a the emotional rollercoaster ride about how he came from
Speaker 5: his you know, kind of anonymous queen's background and set
Speaker 5: himself on the course to becoming president. It's the origin story.
Speaker 5: It's a Frankenstein story about how Roy Cone, played brilliantly
Speaker 5: by Jeremy Strong from Succession, taught Donald Trump the lessons
Speaker 5: molded his personality in a way that he displays every
Speaker 5: day today. The movie ends in nineteen eighty seven, so
Speaker 5: it doesn't touch anything to do with current events. But
Speaker 5: over these two hours you see all of the lessons
Speaker 5: that when you watch the news today you'll have an
Speaker 5: entirely new understanding of how Donald Trump, why and how
Speaker 5: he talks the way he does. It's really the ghost
Speaker 5: of Roy Cone speaking through Donald Trump.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's fascinating. I've recommended your book at the top
Speaker 2: of our show today, the loudest voice in the room.
Speaker 2: And with this movie, could you talk about some of
Speaker 2: the lessons maybe that you brought from reporting for so
Speaker 2: many years on Roger Ayles into Donald Trump and that
Speaker 2: monoculture era, how they both of these two characters kind
Speaker 2: of form to become so influential.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean both are obviously Ales and Trump are
Speaker 5: larger than life, you know. I think what they're both
Speaker 5: sort of Shakespearean characters who have these operatic rises and falls.
Speaker 5: And Roy Cohne, who was Donald Trump's mentor, is one
Speaker 5: of the most significant figures of the twentieth century. His
Speaker 5: shadow continues to loom over all of us today. The
Speaker 5: scorched earth politics, the zero sum politics, the idea that
Speaker 5: you never admit defeat, you never back down, and you
Speaker 5: always counter attack. All the things that we see transpiring
Speaker 5: in our politics today are the lessons that.
Speaker 4: Roy Cohne taught Donald Trump.
Speaker 5: So I really think this is a movie where you
Speaker 5: go on this in crazy rollercoaster ride with these two
Speaker 5: characters through the gritty underbelly of New York City in
Speaker 5: the nineteen seventies. And you see Donald Trump slowly over
Speaker 5: the course of this movie going from kind of an insecure,
Speaker 5: awkward son of a real estate air a real estate developer,
Speaker 5: to becoming this kind of egomaniacal personality. It's an incredible transformation.
Speaker 5: And Sebastian Stan from all of the Marvel movies disappears
Speaker 5: into this role as Donald Trump. I got to know
Speaker 5: Sebastian well during the shooting, and when I was on set,
Speaker 5: it was like, it was really uncanny because I've spent
Speaker 5: a lot of time with the real Donald Trump, and
Speaker 5: there were just moments where I forgot I was even
Speaker 5: watching an actor.
Speaker 3: So Donald Trump.
Speaker 1: Is obviously the most divisive figure in American politics, but
Speaker 1: one of the most divisive figures probably in political history.
Speaker 1: How did you not navigate the politics of this? In
Speaker 1: other words, like, is this just a movie for resistance
Speaker 1: libs or do you think that there are some Republican
Speaker 1: Trump supporters who might get something out of it as well?
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean that's a great question, and I think
Speaker 5: it's a question that kind of animated this entire project
Speaker 5: when I started writing it in the spring of twenty seventeen.
Speaker 5: I wanted to write a movie that was a film,
Speaker 5: not not propaganda and not you know, it wasn't trying
Speaker 5: to advance one side or the other. It's a movie
Speaker 5: where I as a as a writer, was trying to
Speaker 5: understand what is the what is the backstory? How did
Speaker 5: this person who you know is looming so large in
Speaker 5: our lives on our TV screens every day, Where did
Speaker 5: he come from? What are the forces that actually shaped
Speaker 5: his personality? And so you know, there are parts of
Speaker 5: this movie where you know, resistant hashtag resistance members would be,
Speaker 5: you know, saying why this movie is, you know, too
Speaker 5: sympathetic to Donald Trump? And I'm sure there's aspects of
Speaker 5: the film where you know, people in the maga world
Speaker 5: will say that it doesn't you know, fit their image
Speaker 5: of Trump as the Second Coming, and that's okay. I
Speaker 5: think what I'm so fascinated by is I want people
Speaker 5: to experience this movie and they can take away really
Speaker 5: whatever they want from it. It's not it's not a
Speaker 5: takedown of Donald Trump, and it's not a love letter.
Speaker 5: It's really trying to treat him like a movie character.
Speaker 5: You know, it's so interesting about our politics today where
Speaker 5: things are so polarized, because if you take, you know,
Speaker 5: look at these kind of legendary, iconic movies that tried
Speaker 5: to capture a certain subculture or a world like The Godfather,
Speaker 5: per se. Right, we don't say is The Godfather an
Speaker 5: anti mob movie or a pro mob movie. We all
Speaker 5: talked about it as this iconic movie and these Michael
Speaker 5: Corleone and are these larger than life characters.
Speaker 4: And that's what I was trying to do with this film.
Speaker 5: I think of Donald Trump, regardless of what you think
Speaker 5: of his politics, is he's this you know, epic character
Speaker 5: that has changed the change of the culture, and so
Speaker 5: I think he's worthy of a cinematic treatment in the
Speaker 5: same way that any other you know, great movie character.
Speaker 2: Is Yeah, totally, I totally agree. I think he sees
Speaker 2: himself that way in some aspects, which is why it
Speaker 2: was interested let's put F two please on the screen.
Speaker 2: As the movie has debuted, they've apparently sent a seasoned
Speaker 2: to SIS letter try and block the film's release. What
Speaker 2: do you think is behind that?
Speaker 4: Exactly?
Speaker 2: You know, you've, as you said, you've interviewed Donald Trump
Speaker 2: before you spend time around as people, what's the impetus
Speaker 2: behind the Season Desists?
Speaker 4: Well, well, two things.
Speaker 5: First of all, he's never he hasn't seen the movie.
Speaker 5: No one in his campaign to my knowledge, has seen
Speaker 5: the movie. When this letter was released that you're putting
Speaker 5: up on the screen. Yeah, this was hours after the
Speaker 5: movie had its world premiere at the can Film Festival
Speaker 5: in May, so that was the first time anybody outside
Speaker 5: of our filmmaking team had seen this film. Donald Trump
Speaker 5: clearly hadn't seen it. So this was just sort of
Speaker 5: sight unseen firing off a letter. And in fact I
Speaker 5: was kind of laughing at the time because it was
Speaker 5: an instance of really life was imitating art because in
Speaker 5: the film, Roy Cone teaches young Donald Trump the number
Speaker 5: one lesson, which is always to go on the attack.
Speaker 5: And so this Season Desists letter was the perfect exit,
Speaker 5: real life example of that. What I think is going
Speaker 5: on there, I mean, he hasn't seen the film, so
Speaker 5: you know they're launching this attack without really having any
Speaker 5: real information.
Speaker 4: So I hope. I guess.
Speaker 5: My wish is that people reserve judgment and they're welcome
Speaker 5: to weigh in, but way in after you see the movie.
Speaker 4: Don't just attack something that you haven't seen.
Speaker 3: Sure, I know you say.
Speaker 1: The film ends before the current political moment, and the
Speaker 1: film focuses on kind of the psychological forces and character
Speaker 1: influences on Donald Trump's personality. But I wonder if you
Speaker 1: also put thought into the cultural moment that also helps
Speaker 1: to enable Donald Trump's rise to become you very unlikely
Speaker 1: president of the United States.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great question.
Speaker 5: I think the movie, yes, it explores this this intimate
Speaker 5: relationship between Roy Cone and his protege, his apprentice, Donald Trump,
Speaker 5: which is the you know, inspiration for the title of
Speaker 5: the film. But it really also exposes the system, the
Speaker 5: system of corruption, and the rise of media and tabloid
Speaker 5: culture in New York City in the nineteen seventies, in
Speaker 5: the nineteen eighties, which Donald Trump really learned how to harness.
Speaker 5: There's this great scene in the film where Donald Trump's
Speaker 5: mother is reading a New York Times profile of Trump,
Speaker 5: which was the first major newspaper profile of Trump that
Speaker 5: was published in nineteen seventy six, And she's sitting with
Speaker 5: him in the family living room and she's reading how
Speaker 5: the New York Times writer compares Trump to quote Robert
Speaker 5: Redford and how good looking he was. And I was
Speaker 5: struck because that scene is based on the actual real article.
Speaker 5: I just quoted verbatim from what the New York Times
Speaker 5: wrote about Donald Trump in nineteen seventy six. So the
Speaker 5: irony is that, you know, Trump bashes the media, Trump
Speaker 5: attacks the failing New York Times.
Speaker 4: And yet this.
Speaker 5: Movie really shows how the mass media culture of the
Speaker 5: nineteen seventies and eighties was responsible for building up the
Speaker 5: myth of Donald Trump. Donald Trump benefited from the media.
Speaker 1: You know that I want to run by you this
Speaker 1: theory that I have about Trump and his evolutions since
Speaker 1: he burst on the political scene. I mean, he'd been
Speaker 1: sort of in the political scenes before this, but in
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen, in twenty sixteen, he's very.
Speaker 3: Clearly like a product of the tabloids.
Speaker 1: Right sensational list, right outrageous, but kind of finger on
Speaker 1: the pulse still, but you know, it's very tabloid. Way
Speaker 1: in twenty twenty, he feels more to me like sort
Speaker 1: of like Fox News Grandpa. You know, he's been swimming
Speaker 1: in the circles of like traditional mainstream conservative Rupert Murdoch media,
Speaker 1: and then now he feels to me, like Twitter under
Speaker 1: Elon and there's a whole New York Times analysis. We
Speaker 1: actually pulled it, we could put it up on the screen,
Speaker 1: But they did a whole analysis of his speeches now
Speaker 1: versus twenty sixteen, and it's longer now, it's angrier, and
Speaker 1: it's more rambling and whatever. And they frame it as
Speaker 1: a question of age. That is probably part of it,
Speaker 1: But I also feel like it's also a question of
Speaker 1: the type of media that he's consuming and playing into,
Speaker 1: perhaps as much as it is a question of his age.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I mean, I think you just have sort of chronicled
Speaker 5: the the last you know, almost decade of Trump's performance
Speaker 5: as a public figure. We you know, when I spend
Speaker 5: a lot of time with him, I found him to be,
Speaker 5: you know, obviously you know, very aggressive, and but he's
Speaker 5: I think the one thing that really enabled Trump in
Speaker 5: especially his early political rise in twenty fifteen twenty sixteen,
Speaker 5: was he was funny.
Speaker 4: I think I think.
Speaker 5: Humor and and and comedy really underpinned all of you know,
Speaker 5: and helped to soften his you know, scorched earth style
Speaker 5: of politics.
Speaker 4: And I think unfortunately, what has happened.
Speaker 5: Over time as he's gotten older, or perhaps as he's
Speaker 5: only just you know, sort of consumed right wing media,
Speaker 5: is that his speeches have become less there. You know,
Speaker 5: there's there's a less of a lightness or a comedy
Speaker 5: to them.
Speaker 4: He's just it's just pure rage. It's pure anger.
Speaker 5: And you know, that might appeal to the really core
Speaker 5: MAGA base. But I think the things that made Donald
Speaker 5: Trump appealing to people who didn't follow politics so closely
Speaker 5: in twenty fifteen was the sense that he was making
Speaker 5: politics entertaining. And he's just if you just judge him
Speaker 5: as a entertainer, he's less entertaining now. He's not as
Speaker 5: good of a performer as he was, you know, five
Speaker 5: eight years ago. So I think you're onto something. And
Speaker 5: I read that Peter Baker piece in the New York
Speaker 5: Times very closely, and I thought that the analysis was fascinating.
Speaker 5: How he's using angrier words, he's they're longer, his sentences
Speaker 5: don't track. So if he in fact does not win
Speaker 5: the election in November, I think one of the takeaways
Speaker 5: could would be that he was just less a skilled communicator.
Speaker 5: I think Donald Trump's communication power was so central to
Speaker 5: his rise, and if he doesn't win it will be
Speaker 5: a sign that his communication power has faded.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a really good insight. Well, I'm
Speaker 2: excited to see the film. It's out on what does
Speaker 2: it just say? Friday?
Speaker 4: All theater Friday and movie theaters. Please tell your friends all.
Speaker 2: Right, I'll be there. I'll be watching with my AMC credits.
Speaker 2: So thanks for having Okay, thanks for coming on.
Speaker 4: Thank you, appreciate it.
Speaker 3: Great to have you, Gabe, Thank you. Thank you guys
Speaker 3: so much for watching.
Speaker 2: We appreciate you. Take advantage of that discount if you can, otherwise,
Speaker 2: we will see you all tomorrow.