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Speaker 1: Hey, everybody, welcome to another episode of I Saw What You.

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Speaker 2: Did bonus episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm Millie by the way, Danielle, and thanks for being here,

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Speaker 1: Thanks for wanting to bonus with us.

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Speaker 2: I will never.

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Speaker 3: Feel like I'm a bonus in anyone's life, but I

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Speaker 3: appreciate it.

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Speaker 1: You're a bonus in my life, but you're also on

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Speaker 1: the main feed.

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Speaker 4: So how about that?

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Speaker 2: This is real.

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Speaker 1: I was just making the the incredibly nerdy podcast metaphor

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Speaker 1: of you're my bonus episode, but you're also my main

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Speaker 1: faede episode.

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Speaker 4: If you know what I mean, that's a sweet That

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Speaker 4: would be such a sweet card.

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Speaker 1: I would I would think that I was sweet and

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Speaker 1: then vomit because we both host a podcast now.

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Speaker 2: And exactly you know.

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Speaker 3: And I would also think it was sweet if you like,

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Speaker 3: people only were allowed to send it to like their

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Speaker 3: grandparents or their great aunt who had no idea what

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Speaker 3: it meant, just to get their reactions, like I just

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Speaker 3: want taped reactions to like.

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Speaker 2: Oh bigs, uh, what is this good time?

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Speaker 4: What're the worlds? That's the only radio I know of Jim's.

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Speaker 2: Is this a bomb threat? Is this a code?

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Speaker 1: I only remember when Jimmy Dean was on the Craft

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Speaker 1: Theater of the Stars, and he was doing a.

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Speaker 4: Arthur Miller play. I don't know what the fuck.

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Speaker 1: So okay, I thought it might be fun for this

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Speaker 1: bonus episode if we did something where well, let me,

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Speaker 1: let me give it a little bit of context.

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Speaker 4: So I have gotten.

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Speaker 1: A lot of emails and a lot of texts from

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Speaker 1: people in my life about the podcast, which is awesome.

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Speaker 1: I'm honestly just like, I love that my friends are

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Speaker 1: listening to it. I don't know if that's I'm sure

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Speaker 1: it's probably the same for you, daniel where you're like.

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Speaker 4: Oh, my sister likes it. It's lightly she doesn't like anything.

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Speaker 2: I get excited when I see your sisters likes on

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Speaker 2: the Instagram. Yeah, I was.

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Speaker 4: Like, and listen my sister, it's a hard sell for

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Speaker 4: her a lot. So like she likes it. I'm thrilled.

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Speaker 1: I've been getting a lot of messages from my friends

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Speaker 1: who don't actually know you, Danielle, and a lot of

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Speaker 1: these people are people that I knew from Atlanta, like

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Speaker 1: people went to college with that. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: we necessarily have overlapped, you know, like my friendship and

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Speaker 1: the podcast with you and knowing them. So, yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of people, not just people I

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Speaker 1: know personally, but I think a lot of people out.

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Speaker 4: There that are obsessed with you and just want to

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Speaker 4: know more.

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Speaker 1: And I thought maybe a good way to do that

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Speaker 1: is that I interview you, you know, and like a

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Speaker 1: tear very like Terry Gross from Fresh Air type of way.

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Speaker 4: Maybe maybe a little bit you know, more cussing, who knows.

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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm down. If I can curse, I'm down.

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Speaker 1: Okay, good, because I you know, it's always a you know,

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Speaker 1: an ask of like, hey, do you mind if I

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Speaker 1: ask you a bunch of personal questions and you can

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Speaker 1: tell them to people on a microphone.

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Speaker 3: Well, It's also what's wild is that, like it doesn't

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Speaker 3: feel that way when we record because I'm just talking

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Speaker 3: to my friend.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.

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Speaker 1: It's sneaky that way, but I also know that you

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Speaker 1: are you have written a memoir about your life, and

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Speaker 1: maybe some of this will be in your memoir. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, but I just figured maybe it's just a

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Speaker 1: good way for people to get to know you.

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Speaker 4: And you have had truly one of the.

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Speaker 1: Most fascinating lives of anyone I've ever met, and I

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Speaker 1: just think that you got to tell the folks like

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Speaker 1: you got to tell people about your stories because they're

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Speaker 1: just incredible and you're just such an incredible person. I

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Speaker 1: just figured, would you be down with that if I

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Speaker 1: just asked you a bunch of questions?

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Speaker 2: Completely downe with it?

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Speaker 3: And I you know, you know me, like, as a

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Speaker 3: matter of course, I do not mind talking about my

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Speaker 3: experiences because I think when I was younger, I needed

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Speaker 3: a me in my life, like I needed someone to

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Speaker 3: be like things are possible. And just because this happened

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Speaker 3: to you, that doesn't mean that it's going to.

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Speaker 2: Be like that forever. So I will I will do

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Speaker 2: it for the for the people. I'll do it for

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Speaker 2: the children.

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Speaker 4: Oh good good, Okay.

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Speaker 1: You've mentioned in other episodes that you grew up in Warwick,

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Speaker 1: New York. Yeah, were you born there or you were

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Speaker 1: just were you there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah?

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Speaker 3: So my mom and dad where child were high school

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Speaker 3: sweethearts and he was a year older than her. So

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Speaker 3: when he graduated, he moved to North Carolina with his family.

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Speaker 3: Like his family's like, good, all our kids are out

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Speaker 3: of school, let's go, and they moved back to North Carolina.

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Speaker 2: A year later.

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Speaker 3: My mom graduated and ran away from home the summer

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Speaker 3: after she graduated to join him without telling anybody, and

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Speaker 3: she was pregnant with my brother within like three months,

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Speaker 3: and then maybe longer than that. And then she was

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Speaker 3: pregnant with me like six months after my brother was born.

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Speaker 3: And then at that point my great grandmother, her grandma,

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Speaker 3: was like, you need to.

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Speaker 2: Come home, like come home.

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Speaker 3: So when she was pregnant with me, she moved back

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Speaker 3: to New York, upstate New York, and that's where I

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Speaker 3: was born.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because you've talked about having this, I mean, how

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Speaker 1: I see it anyway? Is this really like idyllic, farm based,

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Speaker 1: rural almost upbringing the nobody's full upbringing? Yeah, so do

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Speaker 1: you remember that a lot of that of your childhood

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Speaker 1: were you into like going through the wheat crops.

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Speaker 2: And I mean it was still the nineteen eighties.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't like Little House, So you weren't born in

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Speaker 1: Days of Heaven, the movie where you were.

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Speaker 4: You were born in a field.

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Speaker 3: They put a scythe in my hands as soon as

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Speaker 3: I turned five, and I was just chopping down.

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Speaker 2: We know it was I mean, it was kind of

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Speaker 2: like that.

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Speaker 3: And it's kind of bizarre to think about because I

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Speaker 3: was outdoorsy's, but it was like a forced outdoors e's

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Speaker 3: because in the eighties, in the summer especially, I think

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Speaker 3: parents were like, go outside and don't come back till

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Speaker 3: the street lights come on, and that was how and

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Speaker 3: then we were just outside all day, like finding adventures

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Speaker 3: and so, yeah, I liked being outside and I love

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Speaker 3: four seasons.

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Speaker 2: I miss having four seasons, but.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I had a very like my town had one

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Speaker 3: traffic light for most of my upbringing. You know, high

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Speaker 3: school was flanked by farms on all sides. It was

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Speaker 3: definitely an idyllic upbringing that I one hundred percent could

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Speaker 3: not stand.

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Speaker 2: When I was growing up there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was so safe and so like, you know, insulated,

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Speaker 3: but also it was very strange because I was you know,

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Speaker 3: the black people that were in my town that could

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Speaker 3: count on two hands, and five of.

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Speaker 2: Them I was related to.

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Speaker 3: So it's like it wasn't was not very diverse at all,

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Speaker 3: And those small towns come with their own their own baggage,

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Speaker 3: and sometimes it's not outright racism, it's just that knowledge

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Speaker 3: that you don't belong and you don't fit in.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I was gonna ask you about that.

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Speaker 1: Did you feel like growing up there as a black

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Speaker 1: woman was hard just considering, yeah, you know, the racial

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Speaker 1: composition of where you were living.

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Speaker 3: I'm hearing it more and more from black women online

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Speaker 3: and in my own life, where I grew up out

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Speaker 3: of place in so many ways that race almost wasn't

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Speaker 3: the top one, but it was always the foundational one.

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Speaker 3: So I felt out of place because I was black,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, we had to go swimming for

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Speaker 3: gym and I was like, oh, I can't my hair,

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Speaker 3: and like people just didn't understand that. They would like

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Speaker 3: make fun of me because my hair didn't look like

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Speaker 3: it was wet and just you know, does all that

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Speaker 3: kind of stuff that just is always foundational. But then

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Speaker 3: it was also like I felt at a place because

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Speaker 3: I was weird.

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Speaker 2: I listened to punk rock.

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Speaker 3: I liked, you know, heavy metal, which was of the time,

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Speaker 3: but not for black people. I would go to concerts

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Speaker 3: and be the only black person in like the heavy

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Speaker 3: metal shows. And I felt at a place because I

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Speaker 3: was like I was into art. And then I also

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Speaker 3: was at a place because we didn't own a house.

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Speaker 3: You know, I lived with my grandparents in a duplex.

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Speaker 3: I've always lived in apartments, Like there were a couple

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Speaker 3: of times when my mom rented a house, but we

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Speaker 3: never lived in the whole thing. It was like a

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Speaker 3: house that was bisected into duplexes. So you know, that's

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Speaker 3: not common where I grew up. You know, everyone owns

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Speaker 3: a house and you know, lives in the house with

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Speaker 3: the two point one kids and the dog and all

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Speaker 3: that shit. So I was at a place in so

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Speaker 3: many ways that after a while it was just like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: fuck it, I.

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Speaker 2: Just don't fit in here, and I'm not even gonna try.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I know, I totally hear you on that.

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Speaker 1: Like, my my dad was in the military and we

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Speaker 1: moved around a shit ton and we actually lived for

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Speaker 1: long periods of time in hotels, and that was always

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Speaker 1: such a weird subject, you know.

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Speaker 4: And I guess obviously when.

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Speaker 1: You're a kid too, there are moments in childhood where

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Speaker 1: you're like, you figure out maybe somebody tells you that,

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Speaker 1: but like you're like, oh, I'm not like everyone else

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Speaker 1: for some weird reason. And it usually has somebody to

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Speaker 1: do with class, and you're like somebody's like.

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Speaker 4: You're fucking poor, and I'm like, what.

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Speaker 2: I was at the library? Yeah, what do you mean?

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Speaker 3: I know, Like we had We didn't have a washer

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Speaker 3: and dryer in my house growing up, but there was

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Speaker 3: a laundrymaunt on the corner. And part of the reason

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Speaker 3: when my grandparents moved to this place that they moved

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Speaker 3: to in Warwick is because they didn't drive, so they

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Speaker 3: needed to be in the center of town to get

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Speaker 3: anything done. So we could walk to the grocery store,

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Speaker 3: we could walk to the dry cleaners, we could walk,

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Speaker 3: and we could wheel our cart up to the laundromat.

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Speaker 2: And it never failed to.

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Speaker 3: Blow my mind when I was an adult living in

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Speaker 3: Harlem and living in New York and seeing people my

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Speaker 3: own age with those metal grandma carts, because it's just

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Speaker 3: practical when you live in a city, it's just practical

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Speaker 3: to have one.

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Speaker 2: And it blew my fucking mind.

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Speaker 3: And it gave me like instant trauma flashbacks because I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I remember bringing that up the street when I was

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Speaker 3: nine and ten years old old, or like I remember

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Speaker 3: dragging that up the street as a teenager and watching

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Speaker 3: my crush drive by with his parents, And here I

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Speaker 3: am going to the laundromat already embarrassing enough with my

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Speaker 3: whole family's clothes, Like it was just so so many

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Speaker 3: moments like that that were always class based embarrassment for sure,

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Speaker 3: and just compounded. You know.

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Speaker 1: I also think too that was like not to say

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Speaker 1: that it doesn't happen, but I feel like in the

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Speaker 1: eighties when we were small, you know, that was a

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Speaker 1: huge thing.

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Speaker 4: I mean, it was in movies.

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Speaker 1: It was like the center of like a lot of movies,

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Speaker 1: especially movies featuring like kids and teenagers, and like it

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Speaker 1: just seems like it was probably pretty hard to be

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Speaker 1: poor in the eighties for multiple reasons, but just for

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Speaker 1: you know, well being a kid and getting bullied for

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Speaker 1: that kind of shit.

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Speaker 3: Oh absolutely, And also, like you remember, like growing up

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Speaker 3: in that time, it wasn't like we were seeing representations

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Speaker 3: of different ways to live. So now you could turn

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Speaker 3: on a TV show and the family lives in an apartment.

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Speaker 3: That was not normal when we were growing up. It

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Speaker 3: was never that. It was always a house. It was

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Speaker 3: always a house or you're super poor, and those are

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Speaker 3: the only representations. There are lots of ways that I

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Speaker 3: felt at a place growing up, and in a way

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Speaker 3: it was kind of liberating because realizing early on that

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Speaker 3: I did not fit in made it more possible for

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Speaker 3: me to be independent a lot sooner than most people

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Speaker 3: I knew.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So were you always close to your grandma? Because

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Speaker 1: I know you have such an amazing relationship and you know,

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Speaker 1: she's obviously a big part of this podcast. But were

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Speaker 1: you were you always close to her, like did you

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Speaker 1: live with her at certain points?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I was always close to her.

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Speaker 3: We lived with my grandparents when my mom first came

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Speaker 3: back from North Carolina. So we were at my grandparents'

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Speaker 3: house for like like a few years, a couple of years,

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Speaker 3: and then my mom, my mom was on welfare, and

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Speaker 3: we got our first apartment. It was like a Section

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Speaker 3: eight apartment kind of thing, and in true small town fashion,

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Speaker 3: it's because a family friend bought a building and opened

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Speaker 3: to deli downstairs, and so he rented the apartment to

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Speaker 3: her upstairs. So that was like our first place was

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Speaker 3: when I was like five, and it was just my mom,

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Speaker 3: my brother, and I, but it wasn't you know, it

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Speaker 3: was an apartment. Then when I was ten, we moved

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Speaker 3: in with my grandmother again, but this time it was unexpected.

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Speaker 3: So in between that, when I was like seven, my

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Speaker 3: mom met a man who was always like extremely violent,

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Speaker 3: but come to find out, he was also high like

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Speaker 3: he used to do cocaine and heroin, oftentimes right in

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Speaker 3: front of me. And he was just a terrible dude.

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Speaker 3: He was very abusive. He was physically abusive, He was

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Speaker 3: sexually abusive. He like picked me up and threw me

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Speaker 3: down a hallway one day and I had to get

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Speaker 3: stitches in my toe, and like it was bad news news.

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Speaker 2: So she met this dude.

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Speaker 3: And suddenly, like, you know, my mom who'd been really

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Speaker 3: working her way up in the world, like getting jobs,

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Speaker 3: and she didn't want to be on welfare and she

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Speaker 3: didn't want to be on food stamps anymore, and she

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Speaker 3: was really doing it. And then he just came and

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Speaker 3: dismantled all of that, and he was like all of

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Speaker 3: our money for drugs. The car that my grandmother took

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Speaker 3: out alone to get her a car, he drove that

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Speaker 3: into the ground.

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Speaker 2: He would take us. My mom worked nights.

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Speaker 3: She worked at a switchboard place where she put together

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Speaker 3: like computer components, and then she worked as a nurse's aide.

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Speaker 3: And he would take my brother and I and load

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Speaker 3: us into the car mill of the night and drive

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Speaker 3: us over the Tapenzee Bridge into the Bronx, where he

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Speaker 3: would leave us in the car while he scored drugs

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Speaker 3: or while he did drugs. Sometimes he took us with

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Speaker 3: him on robberies, like he robbed bodega's all the time,

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Speaker 3: and just like left us in the car, Like I

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Speaker 3: was be in the back seat with my Judy Bloom book,

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Speaker 3: Like I don't know what's happened, But he came out

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Speaker 3: of that store with a fucking sawed off shotgun and

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Speaker 3: put it under the car seat. Wow, And like it

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Speaker 3: was really violent. It was violent and horrible. And then

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Speaker 3: he got put into jail for something that's in my

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Speaker 3: book but it's hard to talk about. So but he

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Speaker 3: got put to put into jail, and basically the authorities

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Speaker 3: told my mom, like, he can't be within a thousand

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Speaker 3: feet of your kids.

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Speaker 2: And she had a kid with him.

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Speaker 3: They'd had like my little brother by that point, so

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Speaker 3: I imagine she was kind of torn. But her decision

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Speaker 3: was to drop my brother and I off at my grandparents'

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Speaker 3: house for a weekend and not come back. So she

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Speaker 3: bailed him out, moved to the city with him and

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Speaker 3: their son, and they had two more kids and I

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Speaker 3: never lived with them again.

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Speaker 4: Man, Holy shit, Yeah, your grandmother was, man, I mean,

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Speaker 4: what a fucking angel, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 3: My grand and my grandparents were retired at that point,

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Speaker 3: like they had moved to this place in Warwick because

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Speaker 3: they were done. And I always thought like, you like,

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Speaker 3: my grandfather worked in the city and he would you know,

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Speaker 3: it's a two hour commute one way by bus, and

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Speaker 3: you know, he always us at his ass. So he

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Speaker 3: was done and they were going to have this life

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Speaker 3: together where they would you know, go to Atlantic City

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Speaker 3: and like just be together. And then here we come,

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Speaker 3: these two preteens, and my granddad went back to work.

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Speaker 3: My grandma got a job for the first time. She

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Speaker 3: was like a stay at home mom before that. She

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Speaker 3: got a job waitressing and was really kind of funny.

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Speaker 3: She got a job waitressing at this catering place inside

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Speaker 3: of a convent. Like there's a convent in my hometown.

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Speaker 3: And then she started working for the convent and eventually

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Speaker 3: ran the switchboards.

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Speaker 2: But I also worked at that convent when I was

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Speaker 2: a teenager. It's kind of a weird connection.

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Speaker 4: What was working at a convent?

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Speaker 2: Like it was bonkers.

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Speaker 3: Well, because the sisters were like, I'm not a religious person.

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Speaker 3: My family is very much like you know, get baptized

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Speaker 3: do your communion. You're out Like, we just covered all

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Speaker 3: the bases for your little soul.

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Speaker 2: We're out here. So I'm not really religious. But what

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Speaker 2: was really cool.

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Speaker 3: About working at the convent is that these were all

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Speaker 3: women who had lived all over the world. So there

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Speaker 3: were women there from Italy, from Germany, and that was

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Speaker 3: actually kind of inspiring to me. Like you can keep

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Speaker 3: the God part, but it's cool that, like to learn

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Speaker 3: about where you traveled as a result of what you

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Speaker 3: chose for your life. You know, to be in a

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Speaker 3: small town and talk to people who had that kind

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Speaker 3: of worldly experience was like really inspiring to me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I grew up Catholic. As I mentioned before, it's

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Speaker 1: like the center of my neuroses, I think. But I

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Speaker 1: never had been to a convent. I've been to like

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Speaker 1: a monastery, but I'm just to visit, like not to hang.

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Speaker 2: Can you imagine hanging in a monastery?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? Right.

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Speaker 1: But it's also like, I don't know, I think it's

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Speaker 1: interesting because nuns. I feel like in movies especially, they

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Speaker 1: always make nuns.

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Speaker 4: Cooler than monks.

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Speaker 1: Like I'm like, monks are very serious and they have

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Speaker 1: like no passions except for the Lord. Nuns are doing

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Speaker 1: shows with Whoopee Goldberg. Like nuns can sing, they can

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Speaker 1: ride bicycles, they drive cars.

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Speaker 3: Sister Paula in my in in the convent that I

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Speaker 3: worked in, she would lease a new car for two years.

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Speaker 4: Because she driving like a Mustang.

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Speaker 3: Was driving like these little sporty cars. I think when

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Speaker 3: the Miata first came out, she got one. Like for

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Speaker 3: the rest of the time that I knew her, up

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Speaker 3: until like my early twenties, she was always in a

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Speaker 3: new car that was a little bit sporty.

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Speaker 1: I guess now that I'm thinking about it, I think monks,

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Speaker 1: because wasn't there like a whole trend in the nineties

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Speaker 1: where monks were like on like eight a M songs

376
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Speaker 1: and shit.

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Speaker 2: Yes, oh my god, boom boom boom.

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Speaker 1: I completely neglected the techno monks out there.

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Speaker 4: I apologize to you.

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Speaker 1: Not sure if you listen to podcasts bonus episodes, but

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Speaker 1: if you do, my apologies.

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Speaker 2: Techno monks are real.

383
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Speaker 3: Yeah, but they were cool and they were nice to me,

384
00:18:04,280 --> 00:18:06,399
Speaker 3: and they were like interested in my life, and it

385
00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:07,879
Speaker 3: was it was cool. It was cool to work at

386
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Speaker 3: the convent. They kept trying to recruit me, but I

387
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:12,520
Speaker 3: was like, nah, it's.

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Speaker 4: A hard sell for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: I will say, I always joke about it, you know,

390
00:18:17,760 --> 00:18:21,680
Speaker 1: but it's hard. So I'm curious because I think we've

391
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:25,800
Speaker 1: talked about this before, maybe on sort of details the

392
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Speaker 1: old podcast that I used to do when we had

393
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Speaker 1: you on as a guest, which is that you kind

394
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Speaker 1: of got into reading and science fiction pretty early. I

395
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Speaker 1: would say, I was just wondering if maybe you could

396
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Speaker 1: talk a little bit about that simply because you know,

397
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Speaker 1: you just kind of described a lot of hardcore things

398
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Speaker 1: that happened to you as a child, and I just

399
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,399
Speaker 1: I know, as from experience, not to that degree, but

400
00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,480
Speaker 1: like just based on things in my life, but also

401
00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,400
Speaker 1: other people have talked about how this kind of stuff

402
00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:04,560
Speaker 1: helps them and like saves them a lot of times

403
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Speaker 1: from bad shit.

404
00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 4: So was that your experience?

405
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Speaker 2: Absolutely?

406
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Speaker 3: I was so excited when I got my first library

407
00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:13,680
Speaker 3: card and it was blue and it had a little

408
00:19:13,680 --> 00:19:14,440
Speaker 3: metal piece on.

409
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Speaker 2: It and I got to sign my name on it.

410
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Speaker 3: I think that that books and reading like books for sure,

411
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Speaker 3: sci fi for sure. It gave me a way to

412
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Speaker 3: think about the world outside of myself. And so I

413
00:19:27,680 --> 00:19:30,600
Speaker 3: would read voraciously, you know, because I just wanted to

414
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,440
Speaker 3: know everything I could about the world because I knew

415
00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:35,920
Speaker 3: I didn't fit into this world that I was in.

416
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Speaker 3: And so what was really cool. I don't know if

417
00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:42,040
Speaker 3: you guys remember this, but YA is kind of a

418
00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:45,720
Speaker 3: new invention. They had a children's section, but it went

419
00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,720
Speaker 3: up to like Little House in the Big Woods, and

420
00:19:47,760 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 3: then you were just out. So I remember like kind

421
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Speaker 3: of sneaking my way into the adult section and starting

422
00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,960
Speaker 3: with like, you know, kind of more generic books and

423
00:19:57,000 --> 00:20:00,359
Speaker 3: not necessarily novels. But my librarian was really cool. She

424
00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:02,359
Speaker 3: would let me read whatever I wanted, and so I

425
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:04,200
Speaker 3: would just bring home a stack of books and I

426
00:20:04,240 --> 00:20:06,199
Speaker 3: could walk to the library every day and I could walk.

427
00:20:06,240 --> 00:20:09,119
Speaker 3: It was where I spent my summers. And yeah, books

428
00:20:09,119 --> 00:20:12,159
Speaker 3: set me free because I was able to kind of

429
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:17,439
Speaker 3: synthesize a world that was possible based on examples that

430
00:20:17,480 --> 00:20:19,840
Speaker 3: I was not seeing in my real life. Same with

431
00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 3: science fiction, because I think science fiction takes you out

432
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:24,920
Speaker 3: of the real world or the you know, the reality

433
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,160
Speaker 3: of the world that we're in and kind of imagine

434
00:20:27,200 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 3: something different and often better, usually much more treacherous. But

435
00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:34,560
Speaker 3: it really it shifted something in me to know that

436
00:20:35,240 --> 00:20:37,800
Speaker 3: these thoughts were possible. These worlds were possible. It just yeah,

437
00:20:37,840 --> 00:20:40,080
Speaker 3: it was kind of it was expansive. It was expansive,

438
00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 3: and I like spending time alone, and I like being indoors,

439
00:20:42,840 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 3: you know, like I'm not really I don't mind sitting outside,

440
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:50,120
Speaker 3: but I'm not a sporty outdoors person, So like any

441
00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:53,119
Speaker 3: reason to sit inside. And if I was quiet, I

442
00:20:53,160 --> 00:20:55,679
Speaker 3: could sit inside all day. If my grandparents didn't know

443
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Speaker 3: I was there, I could be there all day. In general,

444
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 3: I kind of you know, I I loved Confederacy of Dunces.

445
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:04,840
Speaker 3: When I found that book, I loved, like, how do

446
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:06,239
Speaker 3: you say, like, right now, I'm kind of like, I'm

447
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:07,440
Speaker 3: into Agatha Christie.

448
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: I'm into things now. That kind of started back then.

449
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:12,679
Speaker 3: You know, there are some authors that I think you

450
00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:15,159
Speaker 3: can really run the gamut with. I just love stories

451
00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 3: about people's lives. And then whenever we were sign shit

452
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 3: in school to be like do a biography of this person,

453
00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 3: I was like yeah, And then everyone else was like, oh, God.

454
00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:28,320
Speaker 2: Like could I do a biography of George Carlin? And

455
00:21:28,320 --> 00:21:29,320
Speaker 2: They're like absolutely not.

456
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 1: If I was in your class and I saw you

457
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:35,720
Speaker 1: get up and do a book report or something on

458
00:21:35,760 --> 00:21:41,040
Speaker 1: George carl and I've been like, yes, standing over standing

459
00:21:41,040 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 1: ovation five minute lap like Okay, So speaking of this

460
00:21:45,119 --> 00:21:47,480
Speaker 1: is always like really fascinating to me because you sort

461
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,000
Speaker 1: of teased this a little bit, like I think it

462
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,080
Speaker 1: was probably like our second episode when you were like

463
00:21:52,240 --> 00:21:55,560
Speaker 1: talking about how you would get in strange cars with

464
00:21:55,880 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: people in high school. So what were you like in

465
00:21:59,520 --> 00:22:02,879
Speaker 1: high school? Like what was being in high school in

466
00:22:02,920 --> 00:22:03,720
Speaker 1: a small town?

467
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:08,280
Speaker 3: Like it was wild because I didn't go to parties,

468
00:22:08,440 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 3: I didn't date. I went to New York City and

469
00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:15,399
Speaker 3: that was kind of my escape valve. So when I

470
00:22:15,440 --> 00:22:17,840
Speaker 3: was home, I would just kind of do my library,

471
00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:21,320
Speaker 3: normal nerdy things. I had jobs like I worked at

472
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,439
Speaker 3: you know, bakery and a cafe, and I worked at

473
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:27,720
Speaker 3: a toy store, a babysit. It wasn't until I got

474
00:22:27,720 --> 00:22:31,359
Speaker 3: a car that things started popping off. But for the

475
00:22:31,359 --> 00:22:34,919
Speaker 3: most part, it was like it was pretty gentle, Like

476
00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:37,840
Speaker 3: I didn't feel any sense of fear, Like, you know,

477
00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:39,679
Speaker 3: we would do dumb shit like go out to the

478
00:22:39,680 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 3: field and just like lay down and talk and hang

479
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 3: out with your friends and graveyards and shit like it was.

480
00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 2: It was a very goth upbringing.

481
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 1: I guess, well, how was your high school, like in

482
00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:53,240
Speaker 1: terms of like did you have like jocks and were

483
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 1: they like corn fed tractor kind of guys or like

484
00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,160
Speaker 1: how like.

485
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:00,200
Speaker 4: What was it like?

486
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:01,720
Speaker 2: We had a four H club?

487
00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:05,280
Speaker 3: For sure, we had jocks because my school was kind

488
00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:07,199
Speaker 3: of tops in the district for all that shit. And

489
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:10,000
Speaker 3: I think it's because like the taxes of my town

490
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:12,679
Speaker 3: made the school really good, and so it was a

491
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 3: huge huge sports, basketball, football, like huge track, all that shit.

492
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,120
Speaker 4: Did you ever try sports at all?

493
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:20,040
Speaker 2: No?

494
00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,840
Speaker 3: Okay, just how to ask for the god? And the

495
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 3: coach at my school would ask me I had. He

496
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,560
Speaker 3: was a gym coach as well, so he would ask

497
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:32,560
Speaker 3: me every year, like Henderson, You're going out for basketball?

498
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 3: And I'm like no, He's like You're so tall, and

499
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:39,360
Speaker 3: I'm like I'm also very uncoordinated and I don't want

500
00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 3: to do it.

501
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:43,080
Speaker 4: Yeah, but his dream just died.

502
00:23:44,280 --> 00:23:46,880
Speaker 3: I like to watch him wither on the vine every year.

503
00:23:47,359 --> 00:23:50,240
Speaker 3: But I did drum corps, which is like so nerdy.

504
00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 3: I played baritone horn and we marched in these wool

505
00:23:53,720 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 3: uniforms all summer long and regional parades and we had

506
00:23:56,760 --> 00:23:59,280
Speaker 3: to learn how to play songs and like march information

507
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,119
Speaker 3: and it was very laturistic, but it was fun.

508
00:24:02,240 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 2: It was fun.

509
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 3: That's kind of the most the most that I did.

510
00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:05,960
Speaker 3: And I played softball when I was a little kid.

511
00:24:06,960 --> 00:24:10,960
Speaker 3: That that ended when I threw a complete tantrum, flung

512
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:14,640
Speaker 3: a bat back towards the bullpen and hit the fence.

513
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 3: But I missed my coach's head by like five inches,

514
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 3: like she.

515
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:19,640
Speaker 2: Had to duck to get out of the way.

516
00:24:19,760 --> 00:24:22,600
Speaker 3: And I was like, oh, I've got some anger issues

517
00:24:22,600 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 3: that I will not resolve for a decade.

518
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,280
Speaker 2: Sorry.

519
00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,040
Speaker 1: Sports always brings that out of people, that it's the

520
00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:30,439
Speaker 1: if it's festering.

521
00:24:30,840 --> 00:24:33,600
Speaker 4: I played softball too, well, we'll.

522
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,960
Speaker 1: Have to talk about that off mic, because it was

523
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,120
Speaker 1: a huge part of my life, like in a way

524
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:41,160
Speaker 1: that no one really knows about.

525
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,600
Speaker 3: So there, really the lost episode might be all about softball, like.

526
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 1: Uh my, the road less traveled thing, you know how

527
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: it's like that, like I could have been this, or

528
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: I could have been this.

529
00:24:56,280 --> 00:24:59,480
Speaker 3: Truly, if I hadn't killed that person on our softball

530
00:25:00,000 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 3: I heard him.

531
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: In in nineteen eighty eight, I could have been a stab.

532
00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:04,399
Speaker 2: If I had.

533
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 1: Started smoking cigarettes, I could have been a completely different person.

534
00:25:08,880 --> 00:25:10,439
Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about cigarettes a lot on

535
00:25:10,440 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 1: this podcast, But I'm just.

536
00:25:11,440 --> 00:25:13,159
Speaker 4: Saying it was.

537
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:15,520
Speaker 3: Sometimes there are life choices, you know what I mean

538
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:19,440
Speaker 3: exactly exactly depending on how early you start too. Yes,

539
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 3: but it was definitely like your quintessential jock prep. Oh god,

540
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 3: everyone had a fucking SOB when they drove in high school,

541
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:30,360
Speaker 3: like Jesus crazy with sobs.

542
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,320
Speaker 1: But it was from nineteen eighty four and had one

543
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,800
Speaker 1: hundred and four thousand miles on it. And I ran

544
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,119
Speaker 1: over a boulder and cracked it cracked the axle so

545
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: and it fell down a hill. But anyway, so I

546
00:25:44,680 --> 00:25:46,800
Speaker 1: was so SOB that those guys had. I had like

547
00:25:47,200 --> 00:25:49,200
Speaker 1: somebody's shitball SOB that.

548
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 2: Yeah you had, you had a tank, Yeah, truly.

549
00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:55,560
Speaker 4: But I love those cars. I gotta say.

550
00:25:55,560 --> 00:25:58,840
Speaker 1: Now, I'm like, shit, somebody gave me a old SOB.

551
00:25:58,880 --> 00:25:59,840
Speaker 4: I take that shit in them.

552
00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:00,960
Speaker 2: The box.

553
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 3: I like the boxy ones, but everyone had that like

554
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,479
Speaker 3: tear drop shaped one, and like it was just like

555
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,760
Speaker 3: the wealth and privilege in my town was astounding, and

556
00:26:08,760 --> 00:26:10,560
Speaker 3: that was just an extension of it. So even though

557
00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:11,919
Speaker 3: it's like the car is not bad, it's just the

558
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 3: people in it are such shitheads.

559
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: Yes, And it was all.

560
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 3: Like, you know, it was a time of like turtlenecks

561
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: and waterfall necklaces, like the necklace that popped over the top,

562
00:26:20,040 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 3: and like everyone did everything the same way and things

563
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 3: would get popular in the same way, and I just

564
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 3: didn't want any part of it. So I was I think,

565
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 3: like like I started really flying my freak flag when

566
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 3: I was in seventh grade, and I just kind.

567
00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 2: Of, you know, amped it up, kept it going. The

568
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: first day of my freshman.

569
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,119
Speaker 3: Year in high school, I wore a skirt made out

570
00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:40,400
Speaker 3: of ties, and I was so mad when Blossom did

571
00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,199
Speaker 3: it because I was like, this, bitch, I got this

572
00:26:43,280 --> 00:26:45,840
Speaker 3: from Sassy magazine.

573
00:26:45,960 --> 00:26:48,760
Speaker 2: I'm the only one clearly read Sassy magazine.

574
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 1: No, but you, I swear to god, there's always this one.

575
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,560
Speaker 1: There's usually one girl that you grew up with that

576
00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: you go through like middle school and high school with

577
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,680
Speaker 1: because I guess you live like close to each other,

578
00:27:02,040 --> 00:27:06,280
Speaker 1: that like was alternative when she was in middle school.

579
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 4: And you're like, wow, like what a pioneer.

580
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:16,360
Speaker 1: I worshiped that person, Like whoever was alternative in middle school,

581
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,920
Speaker 1: which I argue is like the worst.

582
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 4: I actually think middle school is worse than high school.

583
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 4: That's just mine.

584
00:27:23,359 --> 00:27:24,800
Speaker 2: One hundred percent.

585
00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, in so many ways, it's like your body's revolting

586
00:27:27,560 --> 00:27:28,720
Speaker 3: against you.

587
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:33,120
Speaker 2: Your brain is still developing. Everyone is so cruel.

588
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:36,400
Speaker 3: It's the cruelest years of totally the school life.

589
00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:40,800
Speaker 1: And usually in high school, if people are shitty to you,

590
00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: you just drive your sob into New York City and

591
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: you know, fucking go hang out at like the.

592
00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:49,040
Speaker 4: Cool bookstores or the cool movie years.

593
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: In middle school you are fucking trapped because you have

594
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 1: to be at home with your parents on a Friday

595
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:57,480
Speaker 1: night usually and the only thing you have is like

596
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:02,119
Speaker 1: Saturday Night Live or like like Sketch Comedy TV.

597
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 4: You don't have any way to escape it.

598
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 2: All you have is the kids in the hall.

599
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:08,240
Speaker 3: And you better make sure you tape it because they're

600
00:28:08,280 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 3: not going to show it again. Yeah, and you won't be.

601
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 2: Able to just watch it whenever you want.

602
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,520
Speaker 3: So yeah, it was brutal, brutal, and you have to

603
00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: get on the bus with all these assholes and like

604
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:19,080
Speaker 3: it's just you can't.

605
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: You're right, there's no escape. There's no escape.

606
00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,240
Speaker 3: So yeah, my escape with kind of you just be

607
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 3: like I'm not like you, like, don't if I don't

608
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,280
Speaker 3: play your game, then you can't hurt me or be

609
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:30,720
Speaker 3: cruel to me in the way that you're used to

610
00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 3: being cruel to and hurting people.

611
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: So in high school, you were kind of hanging out

612
00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:40,000
Speaker 1: do you were doing some like heavy metal activities, like

613
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:42,200
Speaker 1: you were in your little bit of a headbanger, which

614
00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:42,640
Speaker 1: I love.

615
00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 2: Oh, Monster's a rock tour? What's up?

616
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:47,520
Speaker 4: See now you like in science fiction? This is all

617
00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 4: coming together for me.

618
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 1: Like I'm like, oh, heavy metal fan and science fiction,

619
00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,680
Speaker 1: come on, Like, this is awesome.

620
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 4: I picked it. I picked to do a podcast with

621
00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 4: a right person, you know what I mean? Like, this

622
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 4: is incredible.

623
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: Because there was like people in my high school that

624
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 1: were exactly that, and they were just like so fascinating

625
00:29:07,360 --> 00:29:09,320
Speaker 1: and fun and interesting, and they grew up to be

626
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,360
Speaker 1: like awesome people.

627
00:29:10,920 --> 00:29:13,080
Speaker 4: Maybe one of them is a murderer, but the rest are.

628
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:16,120
Speaker 2: I mean, that is the line we walk, is that.

629
00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,040
Speaker 3: We are not legion by any stretch, because there's always

630
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: that outlier, and now outlier is usually terrifying.

631
00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, fucking metallic.

632
00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 3: I would go to a Metallica show and just like

633
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:31,600
Speaker 3: work my way to the fucking front and I loved

634
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:33,560
Speaker 3: that ship. I would go to roseland the wetlands, like

635
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:35,880
Speaker 3: I would just go to and because I was tall,

636
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 3: no one asked me any questions when I walked up

637
00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:42,240
Speaker 3: to the front door, front door, like I could get

638
00:29:42,240 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 3: into any concert, any bar, any club, because my goal

639
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 3: wasn't to drink and be crazy, it was to see

640
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:48,200
Speaker 3: the music.

641
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 4: What did you do after high school? Did you stick around?

642
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,240
Speaker 2: Did you one horse down?

643
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 3: I put bon Jovi on the tape deck and out

644
00:29:58,960 --> 00:30:04,320
Speaker 3: out of the amazing well, because like the place where

645
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 3: I grew up to is it's interesting in that way

646
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 3: because I grew up in Warwick, New York, which is

647
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: on the border of Vernon, New Jersey, which is where

648
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:11,880
Speaker 3: Action Park is.

649
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, and there's.

650
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 3: A documentary about Action Park, and I will tell you

651
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,240
Speaker 3: that it is all real and it's terrifying. But like

652
00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 3: once you get to a certain age as a teenager,

653
00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 3: you kind of spent some summers at Action Park. But

654
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:26,000
Speaker 3: for my last summer after I graduated, I worked worked

655
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:26,640
Speaker 3: my ass off.

656
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 2: I got a.

657
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,320
Speaker 3: Car for I think it was like one hundred or

658
00:30:29,320 --> 00:30:32,719
Speaker 3: two hundred dollars and some babysitting for free for the

659
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 3: family that I worked for.

660
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:36,600
Speaker 2: And this car was a clunker. It was a Chavette.

661
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 3: It was a clunker, a tank like, but it was

662
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 3: mine and I would go to concerts and I would go,

663
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:44,480
Speaker 3: you know, drive to Connecticut to see like Ani de Franco,

664
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 3: and I was just all over the place. But I

665
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,040
Speaker 3: did go to college. I went to college for a

666
00:30:50,120 --> 00:30:53,200
Speaker 3: year right out of high school. My best friend Alexis,

667
00:30:53,200 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: who's still my best friend to this day, was kind

668
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,160
Speaker 3: of the one who encouraged me to apply because my

669
00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 3: guidance counselor kept steering me towards can Unity College and

670
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 3: there's nothing wrong with community college at all, but I

671
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 3: knew I didn't want to stay in my town, so

672
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:07,880
Speaker 3: I'm like, why are you steering me towards if I

673
00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,120
Speaker 3: don't want to be here. So she was like, you

674
00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:12,680
Speaker 3: can apply to other colleges, you know, and she really

675
00:31:12,880 --> 00:31:15,240
Speaker 3: like helped me with that. So I went to a

676
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 3: very small college called Lacelle in Newton, Massachusetts, and I

677
00:31:20,080 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 3: chose it because the application was only twenty dollars and

678
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,760
Speaker 3: because Anne Sexton lived there when she was alive. Oh wow,

679
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 3: those are not the ways to choose a college people.

680
00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it sounds good to me, but you know,

681
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:34,960
Speaker 3: I was like, ooh, this poet that I like lived

682
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 3: there and it's only twenty bucks, and I hated it.

683
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:38,760
Speaker 2: Oh god, I hated it.

684
00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,360
Speaker 3: I I was majoring in fashion design because I was

685
00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 3: I made my own clothes, and you know, I started

686
00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:46,880
Speaker 3: sewing when I was like twelve, and I would go

687
00:31:46,920 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: to the thrift store. My fabric that I usually used

688
00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:50,520
Speaker 3: to buy was like I'd go to the thrift store

689
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:52,800
Speaker 3: and deconstruct shirts and pants and stuff and just use

690
00:31:52,880 --> 00:31:55,280
Speaker 3: that to like very pretty and pink, like put it

691
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: back together again. But I thought, I thought's what I

692
00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 3: wanted to do. I love todd Oldham. It was kind

693
00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 3: of that house of style time. So I went to

694
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,840
Speaker 3: school for fashion design in Newton, Massachusetts, right outside of Boston.

695
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 2: It was terrible.

696
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 3: It was a very it was a small college for women,

697
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,320
Speaker 3: and it was basically like a charm school, almost like

698
00:32:16,360 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 3: I just chose wrong. My roommate was like she was

699
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 3: excited to go to any college because if she completed

700
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,440
Speaker 3: four years of any college, her dad was going to

701
00:32:25,680 --> 00:32:29,080
Speaker 3: buy her a Hunt Club membership. I was like, what

702
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,040
Speaker 3: the fuck is that? And she's like, it's like a

703
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 3: place I could ride my horse. And I was like,

704
00:32:32,760 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 3: where the shit am I yeah, so everyone was just

705
00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 3: like drunk, and you know, I loved my teachers so much.

706
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:42,480
Speaker 3: It was just like a really hard time and I

707
00:32:42,480 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 3: didn't like it.

708
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: So I left. After a year.

709
00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 3: I left and I told my grandma, like, I am

710
00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:48,840
Speaker 3: not going back to school, and she was like, I'm

711
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:49,960
Speaker 3: not paying for any of it, so you can do

712
00:32:50,000 --> 00:32:51,959
Speaker 3: whatever you want. Because I took out all my own loans.

713
00:32:52,040 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 3: I had all my own you know, scholarships and everything.

714
00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:57,440
Speaker 3: So again came home for the summer and worked and

715
00:32:57,480 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 3: then I got a one.

716
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,040
Speaker 2: Way ticket to California.

717
00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 3: I shipped whatever few things I wanted to ship, I

718
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 3: sent them by media mail to my aunt.

719
00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:12,800
Speaker 4: Did that take like forty years or how?

720
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 3: It took like three weeks. But I basically moved everything

721
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 3: except for furniture. I moved for like ten dollars a box.

722
00:33:18,880 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 3: It was incredible. You can't do that anymore, guys. But yeah,

723
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 3: it was great. And my aunt lived out there, so

724
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:26,800
Speaker 3: I stayed with her for a couple of months.

725
00:33:26,840 --> 00:33:28,600
Speaker 4: Where did she live in California?

726
00:33:28,840 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 3: So she was in San Francisco and then by the

727
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 3: time when I got there, she had moved to Fairfield,

728
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 3: which is north of San Francisco. But I was fine

729
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 3: with it. It was like kind of a suburban place,

730
00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,640
Speaker 3: but it was close to things. And I was, you

731
00:33:41,640 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 3: know what, nineteen, and just like, yeah, this is fine.

732
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,720
Speaker 3: But I got my own apartment, worked as a barista

733
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:50,440
Speaker 3: in the mall, you know, started meeting people, started dating.

734
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,280
Speaker 2: Like it was kind of cool when I had like

735
00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:54,880
Speaker 2: my own little, very independent life at nineteen.

736
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:57,959
Speaker 3: I was paying bills, I was paying rent, I was

737
00:33:58,160 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 3: you know, I bought a car, like I did, do

738
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 3: all that with myself all the time. No one in

739
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:03,960
Speaker 3: my family ever knew how to help me with that stuff.

740
00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:06,120
Speaker 3: But I made it work and it was great. And

741
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 3: then you know, I kind of, you know, just really

742
00:34:10,120 --> 00:34:11,240
Speaker 3: kind of felt like I wanted.

743
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:12,439
Speaker 2: To come back to New York.

744
00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 3: Like I hadn't really planned on meeting California for a

745
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:16,560
Speaker 3: long time, but I was. And I ended up being

746
00:34:16,600 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 3: there for about four years, and I came back to

747
00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 3: New York in.

748
00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: Ninety nine, moved to Queens and.

749
00:34:25,840 --> 00:34:28,400
Speaker 3: With a friend of mine from California who was a

750
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: flight attendant and wanted to you know, kind of have

751
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 3: a roommate because you know, they weren't always going to

752
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 3: be home, and so I lived in Astoria, Queens and

753
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 3: it was fucking great. I worked, I did temping for

754
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:43,719
Speaker 3: a little while, and then I got a job with

755
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:44,760
Speaker 3: the United Nations.

756
00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:52,040
Speaker 4: Oh amazing, I know, and it's weird, is.

757
00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 3: Like I don't think anyone knows this because there's no

758
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:57,400
Speaker 3: reason too, but the United Nations has its own credit union,

759
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:02,200
Speaker 3: and my job was too. I worked at the bank essentially,

760
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 3: and my job was to kind of hunt down people

761
00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:07,279
Speaker 3: who owed the bank money. Like they would take out

762
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 3: loans while they were on appointment and send their kids

763
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:12,560
Speaker 3: to private school and buy cars, and then their appointment

764
00:35:12,560 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 3: would be over, they would go back to wherever and

765
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 3: still owe a ton of money and we're like.

766
00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:19,719
Speaker 2: Hey, you still owe us money. So that was my job.

767
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: I was a grifter for the United Nations.

768
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:27,359
Speaker 1: You were shaken down ambassadors. Yeah, you're like speaking through

769
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:31,560
Speaker 1: those little boxes being like, bitch, give me my fucking

770
00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: money with the microphone on the desk.

771
00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 3: I remember distinctly being like twenty two years old and

772
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: talking to a grown ass man about how his house

773
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:46,680
Speaker 3: was going to be foreclosed on because he hadn't paid

774
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,040
Speaker 3: his mortgage in six months. And then I would go

775
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:52,040
Speaker 3: to my boss's office and be like I'm twenty two.

776
00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:55,399
Speaker 2: Are you sure I should be doing this? Like this

777
00:35:55,480 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: man was in tears at my office.

778
00:35:59,000 --> 00:36:02,839
Speaker 1: Brian Anderson, just keep going, keep pressing the buttons, put

779
00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:08,160
Speaker 1: them in the getting thumbscrews come on. It was so weird.

780
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:09,800
Speaker 4: It was so weird.

781
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:13,280
Speaker 3: And then September eleventh happened, and it was fucking freaky.

782
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 3: So I got home that day, I went over the

783
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 3: bridge with a friend of mine who worked at the

784
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 3: United Nations. Gave me a ride to a story because

785
00:36:21,160 --> 00:36:23,200
Speaker 3: it was right over the bridge. And as we're going over,

786
00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: like I could see the smoke from the towers and

787
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 3: it was just like there was all this ash floating

788
00:36:28,440 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 3: for like two days, three days, like just floating in

789
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 3: the air.

790
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,360
Speaker 2: But basically I went back to Queen's and wait.

791
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:36,000
Speaker 1: So let me let me interrupt you for a second.

792
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: Were you in the building when September eleventh happened. I

793
00:36:39,320 --> 00:36:41,320
Speaker 1: was in the United Nations, which is not near the

794
00:36:41,360 --> 00:36:44,600
Speaker 1: World Trade Center. But because I was in the United Nations,

795
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,040
Speaker 1: we were on immediate lockdown, so they like hustled us

796
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:49,759
Speaker 1: into a basement. They brought in like you know what

797
00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:52,319
Speaker 1: those TVs on wheels that used to have in uh

798
00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:55,279
Speaker 1: in elementary school and high school, and shit, yeah they

799
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 1: brought one of those in, but we were like essentially

800
00:36:57,640 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: in a bunker for a few hours.

801
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:02,920
Speaker 4: Protocol. I don't know if this is boring, yeah, I.

802
00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:03,600
Speaker 1: Just want to know.

803
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:05,120
Speaker 2: No, No, I think it is.

804
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 3: I think it's protocol because you never know, like what

805
00:37:07,160 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 3: dignitaries are visiting. You never know like if there's heads

806
00:37:09,640 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 3: of state or anything like that. So I think they

807
00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 3: just kind of have to have a plan, especially since

808
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,200
Speaker 3: that day was so wild, and they're like the Pentagon

809
00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 3: is hit, the twin towers are hit, Like what the

810
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: fuck is going to happen next? Like, so I think

811
00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:23,719
Speaker 3: there it was just like a real panic mode. But

812
00:37:23,840 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 3: once they let us out, I was like, all right,

813
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 3: I'm going home, I guess. And my phone didn't work.

814
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: It was such a clear, bright day. I remember walking

815
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,000
Speaker 3: down to get a slice of pizza and people were

816
00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:38,480
Speaker 3: just crying and sad, and I was so sad, and

817
00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:42,279
Speaker 3: I was so scared, and I realized very acutely that

818
00:37:42,520 --> 00:37:45,440
Speaker 3: I'm on an island by myself in that moment. And

819
00:37:45,520 --> 00:37:47,800
Speaker 3: I found a way to get home to Warwick for

820
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 3: a few days and with my friend Sarah Jackson, but

821
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,400
Speaker 3: it just like I don't even know if anyone remembers

822
00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,640
Speaker 3: that time after September eleventh, but you know, anthrax was

823
00:37:56,680 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 3: a big deal and people were getting mailed anthrax, you know,

824
00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,359
Speaker 3: in envelopes, and it was really scary. I I would

825
00:38:02,360 --> 00:38:05,160
Speaker 3: be walking on Eighth Avenue or walking on you know,

826
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,759
Speaker 3: walking close to downtown, not even close to the World

827
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 3: Trade Center, just on my way downtown, and you would

828
00:38:12,360 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 3: see tanks just bringing huge beams of iron and you know,

829
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,359
Speaker 3: driving out of the site.

830
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:20,520
Speaker 2: It was really really sad.

831
00:38:21,080 --> 00:38:23,520
Speaker 1: At the time that September eleventh happened, I was like

832
00:38:23,600 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 1: a senior in college and I was general manager of

833
00:38:27,120 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: this college radio station and every year we went to

834
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: this event called CMJ, which they used to have in

835
00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: New York, and it was like, you know, basically like

836
00:38:37,840 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: the south By Southwest that took place in New York.

837
00:38:40,280 --> 00:38:44,800
Speaker 1: It was essentially all these college radio kids getting together

838
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:47,600
Speaker 1: for a week and just kind of running around New York,

839
00:38:47,680 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: going to see bands and you know, all the shit.

840
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:55,840
Speaker 1: So we, for whatever reason decided like the school was

841
00:38:56,120 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: entirely chill with us. We were on a plane to

842
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,240
Speaker 1: New York a week and a half after September eleven,

843
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,239
Speaker 1: Like basically we were like they hadn't canceled the festival technically,

844
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 1: and so it was this thing where we're like, well,

845
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:09,040
Speaker 1: we have all these tickets and there's six of us,

846
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,440
Speaker 1: we might as well go. And so we got on

847
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: an airplane a week and a half after September eleventh.

848
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: That I remember thinking, Wow, I've never seen the airport

849
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,480
Speaker 1: this empty in my life. There was nobody on this

850
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:23,799
Speaker 1: plane but me and my coworkers. And then we were

851
00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:26,400
Speaker 1: like in New York, a lot of it in Lower

852
00:39:26,480 --> 00:39:28,520
Speaker 1: Manhattan because that's where like a lot of bars and

853
00:39:28,600 --> 00:39:30,880
Speaker 1: stuff are, and I was like, wow, the vibe is

854
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:34,440
Speaker 1: so fucking crazy, Like I can't imagine would have been

855
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 1: like for you, like living there. But I just remember

856
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:40,719
Speaker 1: being in that environment for a very short period of time,

857
00:39:40,840 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 1: going this is insane.

858
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:46,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was somber and wild, like that is so

859
00:39:46,680 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 3: bonkers that they're like, yeah, plane, it's fine, get on

860
00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:49,359
Speaker 3: a plane.

861
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: A plane.

862
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:54,840
Speaker 4: Yeah right, I keep saying a different world. But I

863
00:39:54,880 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 4: guess that's kind of.

864
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,400
Speaker 2: Truly truly holy shit. Yeah, it was.

865
00:39:59,560 --> 00:39:59,719
Speaker 1: It was.

866
00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:02,239
Speaker 3: It changed my life because it changed the city for me,

867
00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 3: Like I didn't feel safe in that city anymore. And

868
00:40:04,719 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 3: it was a city where I came of age, you know,

869
00:40:06,440 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 3: like I felt very at home in New York.

870
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 2: But not after that.

871
00:40:10,080 --> 00:40:11,440
Speaker 3: It was really strange, and it kind of you know,

872
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:13,800
Speaker 3: those events kind of make people take stock, of course,

873
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 3: But I think the only thing that I really decided

874
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,880
Speaker 3: was I'm not closing the door.

875
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 2: On New York. But I can't be here right now.

876
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,520
Speaker 3: So in February of two thousand and two, I went

877
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:29,200
Speaker 3: to see to visit a friend of mine in Alaska,

878
00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 3: and I went for a week and I loved it.

879
00:40:33,239 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: I loved it, middle of winter, fucking loved it.

880
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 3: And so I came back to New York, sold all

881
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 3: my furniture, I bought a car.

882
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:42,319
Speaker 2: I bought a superw Forester like the old boxy ones.

883
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 3: I only put what I could fit in there, strapped

884
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 3: my bike on the back, and in May quit my

885
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:50,480
Speaker 3: job and drove to Alaska.

886
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,120
Speaker 1: So you quit the United Nations job and just drove

887
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:59,480
Speaker 1: to Alaska. Yeah, that's incredible. How was the drive to Alaska?

888
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,120
Speaker 1: By the way, I actually never knew you could drive

889
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: to Alaska until you told me that you did it.

890
00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's a couple of ways in but I went.

891
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: So I left from New York.

892
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,880
Speaker 3: I went to Memphis, and this is again, this is

893
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:14,080
Speaker 3: around the time when like I was friends with a

894
00:41:14,120 --> 00:41:17,200
Speaker 3: bunch of people on message boards and you know, I

895
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 3: just had friends that I hadn't met yet anyway, like

896
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:22,360
Speaker 3: all over the place. But yeah, I drove to Memphis.

897
00:41:22,400 --> 00:41:24,120
Speaker 3: And I went to Memphis in May, which is a

898
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 3: dope ass weekend. I saw Morris Day in the time

899
00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:29,360
Speaker 3: and listen to Williams and like all these great bands

900
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:30,840
Speaker 3: with my friend Angie.

901
00:41:31,360 --> 00:41:33,280
Speaker 2: And from there it is kind of zigzagged.

902
00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:34,839
Speaker 3: I was on the road for like almost two months,

903
00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,480
Speaker 3: and I zigzagged, like I went up to Chicago and

904
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 3: I went over there. I was like, what's in Arkansas?

905
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:41,120
Speaker 3: I don't know, let's find out. And I would just

906
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 3: kind of go. You know those back when cell phones

907
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 3: where you had to pay for minutes, so it's like

908
00:41:47,440 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 3: calling people was dicey. Gas was cheap, but you know,

909
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:53,680
Speaker 3: there's no like I was using paper maps and atlases

910
00:41:53,880 --> 00:41:56,319
Speaker 3: like it was that time. But I had the best time.

911
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:58,799
Speaker 3: I went to the Garden of the Gods in Colorado

912
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:00,920
Speaker 3: and just like rode my bike or all this natural

913
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,759
Speaker 3: beauty and it was cool. And then I went up

914
00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:06,200
Speaker 3: from the West coast, So I went up through Vancouver

915
00:42:06,920 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 3: and kind of into Alaska that way and kind of

916
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 3: went inwards and then back over. But it was fucking cool.

917
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:14,800
Speaker 3: I saw the Alaska Pipeline and I was like, is

918
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:17,360
Speaker 3: that it? Because it's I think Alaska Pipeline.

919
00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: I think like.

920
00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:23,240
Speaker 3: Fucking massive, like round It's like this very reasonably sized

921
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 3: round pipe. It's kind of like a light gray turquoiseeous

922
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:29,239
Speaker 3: color and it just kind of runs along like it's

923
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,120
Speaker 3: really babbling brook like river type thing.

924
00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:32,319
Speaker 2: But it was cool.

925
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 1: So like one of my favorite pieces of writing that

926
00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 1: you've ever done. And I feel like a lot of

927
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: people know this particular piece that you wrote for Was

928
00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:42,560
Speaker 1: it for New York Magazine?

929
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:44,600
Speaker 4: I don't remember what it was for, but.

930
00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 1: It was basically like you talking about dating in Alaska,

931
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:52,520
Speaker 1: which I think is so fascinating, and especially as a

932
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:57,760
Speaker 1: black woman, right because you always assume Alaska is probably

933
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,759
Speaker 1: white as fuck, Like, yeah, you know, maybe there's some

934
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 1: like indigenous people.

935
00:43:03,520 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 4: But like, you know, are there Asians?

936
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:06,839
Speaker 2: There are there.

937
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:07,560
Speaker 4: Black people there.

938
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 2: I have no idea.

939
00:43:08,680 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 4: I assume not, but you could probably tell me it is.

940
00:43:11,520 --> 00:43:14,800
Speaker 3: Surprisingly, it was surprisingly diverse to me because I assumed

941
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: it was going to be like all white and Inuit,

942
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:18,440
Speaker 3: and it was.

943
00:43:18,719 --> 00:43:19,320
Speaker 2: Pretty much that.

944
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:21,200
Speaker 3: But there's like, you know, there are army bases and

945
00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,840
Speaker 3: air force bases, and you know there are ways that

946
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 3: people get there, and there's some diversity introduced to that population,

947
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 3: but it's.

948
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: Really male, right because so yeah, so like I want

949
00:43:34,000 --> 00:43:35,560
Speaker 1: to tell people to read it, but I also just

950
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 1: want you to tell me, like what it was.

951
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: Like, Yeah, you can do both. You can do both.

952
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 3: And I mentioned this in the article, and I believe

953
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 3: it's for the cut that I wrote this and I

954
00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:46,640
Speaker 3: mentioned it in the article. But the kind of the

955
00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,000
Speaker 3: prevailing advice is that the odds are good, but the

956
00:43:49,080 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 3: goods are odd.

957
00:43:50,000 --> 00:43:55,239
Speaker 2: So there were men definitely outnumbered women.

958
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:58,480
Speaker 3: So if you're heterosexual, like your odds were good, but

959
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:03,400
Speaker 3: holy shit, the dudes you're to get were wild. I

960
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:07,360
Speaker 3: dated like a fire paratrooper, and like the crux of

961
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 3: the article and the crux of my experience is that

962
00:44:10,320 --> 00:44:13,960
Speaker 3: before I got to Alaska, I was the weird girl,

963
00:44:14,080 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 3: Like I wasn't a hot commodity and I'd had a

964
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:19,600
Speaker 3: boyfriend and it was nice, but like I didn't really

965
00:44:19,840 --> 00:44:22,600
Speaker 3: choose my dating life up to that point, it was

966
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,440
Speaker 3: kind of like whoever wants me, Like I'm here, I'm

967
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 3: ready to go, and so it was really wild to

968
00:44:28,360 --> 00:44:29,880
Speaker 3: be there. And I was kind of like like a

969
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 3: hothouse flower, you know, like I was totally exotic. I

970
00:44:32,239 --> 00:44:36,080
Speaker 3: had dreadlocks and like, you know, I was an exotic

971
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: entity there and dudes were interested. The hard part for

972
00:44:39,320 --> 00:44:41,920
Speaker 3: that for me was like figuring out when am I

973
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:46,000
Speaker 3: being fetishized and when am I being pursued. But it

974
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:50,120
Speaker 3: was cool to have an experience where I felt sexually

975
00:44:50,239 --> 00:44:53,080
Speaker 3: powerful because based on how I grew up in my experiences,

976
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:55,239
Speaker 3: that was a rarity for me.

977
00:44:55,880 --> 00:44:58,439
Speaker 2: And yeah, I dated some wild, wild dudes.

978
00:44:58,480 --> 00:45:02,000
Speaker 3: I mean I just flashing that went on in bars

979
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,239
Speaker 3: and the flashing like, oh god, I would flash my

980
00:45:05,320 --> 00:45:08,200
Speaker 3: tits for beer like it was nothing.

981
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,680
Speaker 4: I actually didn't know flashing meant showing her boobs.

982
00:45:11,760 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, flashing is the same everywhere. But yeah, I just

983
00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: I had wild time. So I would date these just

984
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:19,400
Speaker 2: like these dudes who like.

985
00:45:19,440 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 3: Worked on oil pipes and fishing boats and you know,

986
00:45:22,960 --> 00:45:25,800
Speaker 3: then people who worked at universities and like it was

987
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:27,800
Speaker 3: just it was cool. It was cool, but it was

988
00:45:27,920 --> 00:45:31,840
Speaker 3: a very empowering experience. For me because I drove there alone.

989
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:34,319
Speaker 3: I was there alone and it was it was great.

990
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 4: How long did you live there? Total?

991
00:45:37,120 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: I lived there for four years.

992
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:40,840
Speaker 4: And what made you want to leave? Where you just

993
00:45:41,120 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 4: tired of flashing people in bars?

994
00:45:44,520 --> 00:45:46,400
Speaker 2: I'm like, you know what, these titties have seen it all.

995
00:45:46,520 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 2: Let's get out of here. They are cold and.

996
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 4: I'm over it.

997
00:45:53,680 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: Well, there are a few things that made me want

998
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:57,359
Speaker 2: to leave.

999
00:45:57,640 --> 00:45:59,440
Speaker 3: One of them is that, you know, I have suffered

1000
00:45:59,480 --> 00:46:01,960
Speaker 3: from depression since I was a teenager, and it was

1001
00:46:02,239 --> 00:46:05,680
Speaker 3: exacerbated like you would not believe when I got to

1002
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:09,080
Speaker 3: Alaska because it's dark half the year and shocker, that's

1003
00:46:09,120 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 3: not great for people who have depression. Also, I was

1004
00:46:12,200 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 3: poor and it is the most expensive place I've ever lived.

1005
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 3: Like a gallon of milk back then was like four bucks.

1006
00:46:18,480 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 3: I think now I would not be surprised if a

1007
00:46:20,560 --> 00:46:22,360
Speaker 3: gallon of milk is like eight bucks. Like it is

1008
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:28,200
Speaker 3: so expensive because everything is imported. So I remember vividly.

1009
00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:32,040
Speaker 3: I was living in a house. I had two roommates,

1010
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,800
Speaker 3: we were renting a house. They're both kind of bitchy

1011
00:46:34,880 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 3: to me, and kill Bill came out and I was like,

1012
00:46:37,560 --> 00:46:40,080
Speaker 3: I want to see this movie and they were going.

1013
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:40,840
Speaker 2: And I'm like, can I go with you?

1014
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 3: And you know, having to ask was already shitty enough,

1015
00:46:44,280 --> 00:46:45,680
Speaker 3: and they were like, yeah, sure. And then I kind

1016
00:46:45,719 --> 00:46:47,680
Speaker 3: of looked around and I was like, I don't have

1017
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:51,399
Speaker 3: any money, so I sold some CDs. I'll get enough

1018
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 3: money to go to the movie. And I'm like these

1019
00:46:54,480 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 3: bitches would literally not lend me five bucks. And that

1020
00:46:57,480 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 3: was so weird, Like I was so expensive to be

1021
00:46:59,800 --> 00:47:02,920
Speaker 3: there and I had no support at all. So that

1022
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:05,440
Speaker 3: was a weird turning point where I'm like, I'm alone

1023
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:06,600
Speaker 3: and isolated.

1024
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 2: This is scary.

1025
00:47:09,239 --> 00:47:11,239
Speaker 3: But I also like I had great friends, and you know,

1026
00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 3: that wasn't a typical experience for me, but it was

1027
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:15,880
Speaker 3: just really weird. I mean, I worked in bookstores and

1028
00:47:15,920 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 3: I always had two or three jobs, and then I

1029
00:47:18,239 --> 00:47:19,920
Speaker 3: went out and I worked on the Allutian Islands for

1030
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:21,640
Speaker 3: a year because you know, I wanted to work for

1031
00:47:21,719 --> 00:47:24,480
Speaker 3: this fishing company, thinking I could make some money. And

1032
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:26,840
Speaker 3: it was just like you know, living in container vans

1033
00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 3: and I lived in an old hotel. Yeah, it was

1034
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 3: kind of horrible. Like I got chased by a bear,

1035
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:36,840
Speaker 3: I stabbed a dude. What wait, a fucking second, you

1036
00:47:38,360 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 3: stabbed a dude. Yeah, I mean, I'm gonna save the

1037
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,080
Speaker 3: story of the stabbing for my next book, but I

1038
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 3: can tell you about the bear chase.

1039
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 4: Okay, give me a moment please.

1040
00:47:49,160 --> 00:47:51,719
Speaker 1: First of all, it does like, even if you don't

1041
00:47:51,760 --> 00:47:55,000
Speaker 1: talk about stabbing a dude right now, getting chased by

1042
00:47:55,080 --> 00:47:58,640
Speaker 1: a bear is about as serious as that. So, like,

1043
00:48:00,600 --> 00:48:04,080
Speaker 1: you were chased by an actual fucking like a grizzly bear.

1044
00:48:04,200 --> 00:48:05,480
Speaker 4: Isn't that what they have in Alaska.

1045
00:48:05,640 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: I'm only basing this off of what I've seen in

1046
00:48:08,960 --> 00:48:09,720
Speaker 1: horror films.

1047
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:12,160
Speaker 2: So and it was less of a chase and more

1048
00:48:12,200 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 2: of a loop like.

1049
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 3: Because if I was being like actively pursued, he would

1050
00:48:17,920 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 3: have gotten me. They run really fast and I would

1051
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 3: have died.

1052
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 1: Let me let me tell you, I swear to god,

1053
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 1: I spend a lot of time on the internet googling

1054
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:29,120
Speaker 1: what to do in those scenarios, like bear scenarios in particular,

1055
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: because any any literature you read is like, guess what,

1056
00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,920
Speaker 1: You're dead because they're as fast as you, they can climb,

1057
00:48:36,280 --> 00:48:36,960
Speaker 1: they can swim.

1058
00:48:37,760 --> 00:48:39,680
Speaker 4: You're fucked basically, Yeah, So like.

1059
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:41,959
Speaker 2: You're you better be bionic to get out of this ship.

1060
00:48:44,040 --> 00:48:46,560
Speaker 3: And what's wild, is it like? It was really like,

1061
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 3: you know, I was working late, and I was you know,

1062
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 3: I was by myself in the office.

1063
00:48:52,320 --> 00:48:53,160
Speaker 2: It was late at night.

1064
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 3: I didn't have to worry about people so much because

1065
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:57,880
Speaker 3: we were on we were in a camp and all

1066
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 3: working together. So we were you know, we were right

1067
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:03,880
Speaker 3: on the water and you're supposed to clear all your

1068
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 3: stuff off your boats when you leave for the day.

1069
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 3: And someone had left a bunch of garbage on their boat,

1070
00:49:10,719 --> 00:49:14,320
Speaker 3: and this brown bear was just like rooting around in it.

1071
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:16,719
Speaker 3: And I heard him and smelled them before I saw him.

1072
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:18,640
Speaker 3: So I came out and I decided I'm going to

1073
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 3: cut through the boatyard because it has lights, and you know,

1074
00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:23,960
Speaker 3: the other way around the beach up the hill didn't

1075
00:49:23,960 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 3: have any lights. And so I walked into the boatyard

1076
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:29,759
Speaker 3: and I heard this crash and I looked and I

1077
00:49:29,800 --> 00:49:31,920
Speaker 3: saw this fucking brown bear on this boat, and I

1078
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: took off like a cartoon, like.

1079
00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:36,520
Speaker 2: I just ran back into the building. You know, I

1080
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:37,360
Speaker 2: was there by myself.

1081
00:49:37,440 --> 00:49:39,920
Speaker 3: I was late at night, doing hr shit, and I

1082
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 3: ran back into the building and just slept on the

1083
00:49:43,680 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 3: floor because he was just pacing in front of the

1084
00:49:45,560 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 3: door on the beach for a little bit, and I

1085
00:49:47,560 --> 00:49:51,000
Speaker 3: was like, oh, all right, I can't leave. And I

1086
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:53,839
Speaker 3: fell asleep for a few hours, woke up, looked out,

1087
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,440
Speaker 3: didn't seem to be there. Decided to go the other way,

1088
00:49:56,680 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 3: the dark way up the hill, and there's a little

1089
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 3: fence leading up the hill, but it was still right

1090
00:50:02,360 --> 00:50:05,400
Speaker 3: up against the boatyard. And as I round the building

1091
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 3: and I'm walking up the hill, I hear him snorting

1092
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 3: and like like like snuffling around again, and I was like,

1093
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:14,000
Speaker 3: fuck this, I'll wait till daylight.

1094
00:50:15,080 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: Back in the building and slept for the rest of

1095
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,240
Speaker 2: the night on the floor.

1096
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 1: So I couldn't totally see why you left Alaska. Like

1097
00:50:22,600 --> 00:50:25,600
Speaker 1: so like if you have to shower with a leatherman

1098
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:31,279
Speaker 1: and out sleep a bear basically, then I.

1099
00:50:31,320 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 4: Would be out.

1100
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:35,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it was time because I was just depressed.

1101
00:50:35,040 --> 00:50:36,880
Speaker 2: I was depressed. It was time to go.

1102
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 3: And really what kicked me over the edge is that

1103
00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 3: my granddad had lung cancer and he was very sick

1104
00:50:43,480 --> 00:50:45,279
Speaker 3: and dying and it came on very quickly.

1105
00:50:46,480 --> 00:50:47,160
Speaker 2: And it took me.

1106
00:50:47,520 --> 00:50:50,800
Speaker 3: I had to borrow money to go home from a

1107
00:50:50,840 --> 00:50:53,320
Speaker 3: guy I was seeing, which felt like shit, but he

1108
00:50:53,440 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 3: was very kind and giving it to me. He bought

1109
00:50:55,719 --> 00:50:58,839
Speaker 3: me a plane ticket, but it took about twenty four

1110
00:50:58,880 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 3: hours for me to get home. The time I landed,

1111
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,200
Speaker 3: he had already died and I didn't get a chance

1112
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 3: to say goodbye.

1113
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:06,440
Speaker 2: So I'm like, I'm too far away. Yeah, I'm too

1114
00:51:06,480 --> 00:51:06,879
Speaker 2: far away.

1115
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,719
Speaker 1: So yeah, so you decided at some point to go

1116
00:51:10,880 --> 00:51:13,520
Speaker 1: back to school because I feel like you that's when

1117
00:51:13,560 --> 00:51:15,720
Speaker 1: I met you, was when you were in a grad program.

1118
00:51:16,160 --> 00:51:19,680
Speaker 3: Yes, So I came back from Alaska and I moved

1119
00:51:19,680 --> 00:51:22,400
Speaker 3: to Rhode Island because that's where my then boyfriend lived,

1120
00:51:22,960 --> 00:51:24,920
Speaker 3: and you know, got my own place and everything.

1121
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 2: It was fine.

1122
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 3: We weren't even lived together right away, but I was

1123
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:30,040
Speaker 3: working for a glass blower. I was working at a

1124
00:51:30,120 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 3: bakery and just kind of felt like, you know, I'm

1125
00:51:33,640 --> 00:51:36,439
Speaker 3: almost thirty, and I just feel like I'm not making

1126
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,400
Speaker 3: choices anymore about what i want to do that propels

1127
00:51:39,440 --> 00:51:39,960
Speaker 3: me forward.

1128
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:41,040
Speaker 2: I'm just surviving.

1129
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:45,719
Speaker 3: And that was okay for a while, but when you're

1130
00:51:45,760 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 3: depressed and feeling that way, it just like, I don't know,

1131
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,040
Speaker 3: I didn't have much to live for. It didn't feel

1132
00:51:51,080 --> 00:51:54,359
Speaker 3: like so one of the women who I was working

1133
00:51:54,400 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 3: with at this bakery was like talking about her experience

1134
00:51:57,680 --> 00:51:59,160
Speaker 3: in college and her kids were going to college, and

1135
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:00,960
Speaker 3: she was an older woman, and she was like, you know,

1136
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,640
Speaker 3: you should go back to school, Like I just feel like,

1137
00:52:03,680 --> 00:52:06,120
Speaker 3: you know, talking to you and the things you're interested in,

1138
00:52:06,239 --> 00:52:07,759
Speaker 3: like you should give it a shot. And I was like,

1139
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 3: I can't, like I don't have any money, and she's like,

1140
00:52:09,960 --> 00:52:11,560
Speaker 3: you can get loans, you can do this, you can

1141
00:52:11,600 --> 00:52:13,279
Speaker 3: do that, you can transfer the credits you already have

1142
00:52:13,400 --> 00:52:15,120
Speaker 3: from the year that you went, and she was really

1143
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 3: she had to explain all of that shit to me,

1144
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:19,279
Speaker 3: and that those are the kinds of people that I

1145
00:52:19,320 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 3: feel like are true angels in that universal sense, like

1146
00:52:23,320 --> 00:52:25,840
Speaker 3: something from the universe put me in that place to

1147
00:52:25,920 --> 00:52:31,120
Speaker 3: meet that woman, because she really gave me a way forward.

1148
00:52:31,360 --> 00:52:33,400
Speaker 3: Instead of just saying you should do this, she walked

1149
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 3: me through the steps of how it was possible. And

1150
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 3: she made it really hard for me to say no,

1151
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:41,319
Speaker 3: you know, like she's like, you want to do this right,

1152
00:52:41,360 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 3: and I was like, yeah, I really do, but I

1153
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 3: don't know how. So I went to the University of

1154
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 3: Rhode Island in Kingston, and I majored in English because

1155
00:52:50,120 --> 00:52:54,440
Speaker 3: you know, I love to read and women studies. And

1156
00:52:54,600 --> 00:52:56,680
Speaker 3: so when I that was when I was thirty years old.

1157
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: I went back to college and I got my undergrad

1158
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 3: degree because I double majored, and then I went to

1159
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:09,719
Speaker 3: the University of Wisconsin in Madison because I got a

1160
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 3: full ride for my master's program in gender studies. Wow,

1161
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:17,960
Speaker 3: and I started a feminist Ryan Gosling. So the first

1162
00:53:18,040 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 3: two months of my my grad school experience were that.

1163
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to talk about that, because that is

1164
00:53:23,480 --> 00:53:28,440
Speaker 1: kind of you were on the map so many times

1165
00:53:28,600 --> 00:53:31,719
Speaker 1: before feminist Ryan Gosling. But I think that's like it

1166
00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 1: became a true sensation and kind of like made you famous.

1167
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 4: I mean that's I was just getting to know you

1168
00:53:40,840 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 4: at that.

1169
00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:45,320
Speaker 1: Moment, and you know, I was obviously very curious because

1170
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:47,520
Speaker 1: you seemed like you were really doing a lot of

1171
00:53:47,880 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: gender studies work, and I was, you know, obviously very

1172
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:52,759
Speaker 1: interested in that about you.

1173
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,960
Speaker 4: But then you basically created it as a way to

1174
00:53:58,239 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 4: study for your right.

1175
00:54:00,760 --> 00:54:01,760
Speaker 2: Isn't that how it started?

1176
00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:05,160
Speaker 3: Yeah? Because well, undergrad was such a great experience for

1177
00:54:05,280 --> 00:54:07,480
Speaker 3: me because I was friends with my professors and I was.

1178
00:54:07,520 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: Like learning things in a way that felt good to me.

1179
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:12,160
Speaker 3: And then I got to grad school and it was

1180
00:54:12,880 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 3: heavy theorizing, just such heavy, just so heavy on the

1181
00:54:17,239 --> 00:54:19,359
Speaker 3: theory that it was like it took all the fun

1182
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:20,279
Speaker 3: out of learning from me.

1183
00:54:21,120 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: And I was just sad and considering, like what am

1184
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:25,040
Speaker 2: I doing?

1185
00:54:25,120 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: This isn't the type of work I want to do,

1186
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,359
Speaker 3: Like I wanted to teach at that point, I wanted

1187
00:54:28,360 --> 00:54:30,360
Speaker 3: to go on and get my PhD and like be

1188
00:54:30,520 --> 00:54:33,400
Speaker 3: a professor. And I just hated all the theory. I

1189
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,040
Speaker 3: couldn't get through it was so dense. So I just

1190
00:54:36,120 --> 00:54:38,520
Speaker 3: sat down one night and I think I had just

1191
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:41,680
Speaker 3: seen Drive, Like I took an afternoon off and went

1192
00:54:41,719 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 3: to the movies and saw Drive that I'll do it.

1193
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,719
Speaker 3: And I came back and I made a couple of

1194
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 3: cards that I posted on my personal tumbler as I

1195
00:54:52,719 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: was studying, and my friends were all laughing, and I

1196
00:54:55,600 --> 00:54:57,600
Speaker 3: will give this one to Becka Haven's because she is

1197
00:54:57,680 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 3: the one. She's a friend of mine who said take

1198
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,080
Speaker 3: this off of your personal tumbler and make it its

1199
00:55:02,120 --> 00:55:03,239
Speaker 3: own thing right now.

1200
00:55:04,280 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 2: And I was like, all right. And I didn't come

1201
00:55:06,400 --> 00:55:07,239
Speaker 2: up with the hay girl thing.

1202
00:55:07,320 --> 00:55:11,279
Speaker 3: That was another person, because I guess Ryan Gosling was

1203
00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,600
Speaker 3: reading something on MTV News or something like that where

1204
00:55:14,600 --> 00:55:17,000
Speaker 3: somebody had posted all these like hay girl, but it

1205
00:55:17,080 --> 00:55:18,840
Speaker 3: was like hey girl, you look nice today, or just

1206
00:55:18,920 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 3: like kind of innocuous things and it made Ryan Gosling

1207
00:55:21,600 --> 00:55:23,759
Speaker 3: laugh and it made me laugh. So I just wrote

1208
00:55:23,800 --> 00:55:25,760
Speaker 3: hay girl, and then I would just write some fucking

1209
00:55:25,880 --> 00:55:28,520
Speaker 3: dense theory and it cracked me up. And I put

1210
00:55:28,560 --> 00:55:30,600
Speaker 3: it on a picture of Ryan Gosling and I started

1211
00:55:30,640 --> 00:55:32,560
Speaker 3: to remember that shit. So they were just like flash

1212
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:35,600
Speaker 3: cards for me for school, and I went I put

1213
00:55:35,640 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 3: it up on its own thing and it was a Saturday.

1214
00:55:39,000 --> 00:55:41,600
Speaker 3: I went to the farmer's market and while I was

1215
00:55:41,680 --> 00:55:44,960
Speaker 3: on the bus coming home, I was getting all these

1216
00:55:45,600 --> 00:55:48,319
Speaker 3: emails and text messages and my friends were like, You're

1217
00:55:48,360 --> 00:55:49,800
Speaker 3: on Jezebelle, You're on this, You're on that, And I

1218
00:55:49,880 --> 00:55:53,719
Speaker 3: was like what. And literally overnight it blew up.

1219
00:55:53,880 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: I mean it was the high Tumblr era for sure. Yeah,

1220
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,880
Speaker 1: and it was the high Ryan Gosly era. It was

1221
00:56:01,960 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 1: like a perfect storm of awesome shit happening for you,

1222
00:56:07,440 --> 00:56:10,000
Speaker 1: really and then you and it turned.

1223
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 3: Into a book, like yeah, I wrote the book on

1224
00:56:14,400 --> 00:56:16,799
Speaker 3: my first winter break. I wrote that book in a month,

1225
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:19,279
Speaker 3: Holy shit, Because I'm like, I can't like I was

1226
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:22,680
Speaker 3: going to school. I was a teacher's assistant, so I

1227
00:56:22,760 --> 00:56:25,800
Speaker 3: was teaching classes three times a week. I was writing

1228
00:56:25,880 --> 00:56:30,239
Speaker 3: my thesis and preparing for a dissertation, and I was

1229
00:56:30,360 --> 00:56:35,080
Speaker 3: newly married, and I just I couldn't do I'm like,

1230
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 3: I can't add this to my workload. You know, I

1231
00:56:37,040 --> 00:56:40,040
Speaker 3: was studying already, like you know, ten hours a day.

1232
00:56:40,520 --> 00:56:42,080
Speaker 3: So I just wrote it over my winter break.

1233
00:56:42,239 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 1: And so what did that do for you in terms

1234
00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:50,320
Speaker 1: of like, did you think after this maybe I should

1235
00:56:50,880 --> 00:56:53,920
Speaker 1: write more books and be a writer or were you interested?

1236
00:56:54,080 --> 00:56:56,200
Speaker 1: Were you still going back to grad school being like,

1237
00:56:56,480 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: this is what I'm doing. I'm you know, doing my dissertation.

1238
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 1: I'm going to get my PhD. And that's that's that,

1239
00:57:02,440 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: right Absolutely?

1240
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:05,640
Speaker 3: I thought, well, this is fun. I'm going to be

1241
00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 3: a professor, right, Like that was my goal. And what

1242
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 3: was really strange is that at the time doing that

1243
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 3: became kind of miserable because the internet is going to

1244
00:57:16,280 --> 00:57:18,880
Speaker 3: be the internet, and instead of people kind of joining

1245
00:57:18,960 --> 00:57:22,080
Speaker 3: in on the joke and being fun and having fun

1246
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,560
Speaker 3: with me while I was having fun with it, I

1247
00:57:24,600 --> 00:57:26,920
Speaker 3: started getting all these people telling me that I was

1248
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:30,200
Speaker 3: wrong and I'm doing it wrong, and Nobody knew that

1249
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:33,000
Speaker 3: I was a black woman until the book came out

1250
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:34,840
Speaker 3: and I posted some pictures from the book launch and

1251
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:38,200
Speaker 3: people were like, oh shit, you're a black woman, and like, oh,

1252
00:57:38,320 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 3: is that going to change the way you yell at

1253
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 3: me now?

1254
00:57:40,240 --> 00:57:41,080
Speaker 2: Like what the fuck? Yeah?

1255
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:44,880
Speaker 3: But right, or you're not going to Internet? And people

1256
00:57:44,960 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 3: made it really fucking miserable for me, so I stopped

1257
00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,400
Speaker 3: doing it. I just stopped doing it because it wasn't fun.

1258
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:53,280
Speaker 3: And it was like, you know, people would send me

1259
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:55,760
Speaker 3: shit and be like this is how it should be done,

1260
00:57:55,760 --> 00:57:58,160
Speaker 3: and they would pick things and like just copy me basically,

1261
00:57:58,320 --> 00:58:00,280
Speaker 3: but like do it their way and say it was better,

1262
00:58:00,800 --> 00:58:02,960
Speaker 3: and I just it wasn't fun. It wasn't fun, so

1263
00:58:03,000 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 3: I stopped. So it didn't change my life in that way,

1264
00:58:05,760 --> 00:58:07,880
Speaker 3: Like it didn't change my life to write the book,

1265
00:58:07,920 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 3: to do the site. It helped me study, which was

1266
00:58:10,640 --> 00:58:14,120
Speaker 3: its intended goal, but it all the attention it got,

1267
00:58:14,200 --> 00:58:16,560
Speaker 3: like it was on Rachel Maddow one night, and like

1268
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 3: all the attention it got did nothing for me.

1269
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 2: What it did do is it became a calling card.

1270
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:26,720
Speaker 3: So I wanted to write freelance and I was now

1271
00:58:26,840 --> 00:58:29,640
Speaker 3: able to approach editors and say, hey, I'm this person

1272
00:58:30,120 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 3: and I'd like to write for you. So I use

1273
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,400
Speaker 3: that book to open two very important doors for me.

1274
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:41,600
Speaker 3: One is that I started recapping for Vulture, and I

1275
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 3: basically I wrote to them I think I put on

1276
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 3: my website. I just put a like a mock up

1277
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 3: of what I would do if I was recapping Real

1278
00:58:51,240 --> 00:58:54,120
Speaker 3: Housewives of Atlanta for them, because they weren't covering it.

1279
00:58:54,200 --> 00:58:56,480
Speaker 3: And I'm like, this is the best Real Housewives show

1280
00:58:56,480 --> 00:58:57,440
Speaker 3: and you're not covering it.

1281
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 2: What's up? And simple scene?

1282
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:03,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Like to this day, it's the only one that

1283
00:59:03,800 --> 00:59:08,840
Speaker 3: matters Potomac. I think you'd like Potomac too. But I

1284
00:59:08,920 --> 00:59:11,000
Speaker 3: sent them a link and I'm like, hey, I'm this person,

1285
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,160
Speaker 3: I wrote faenas Ryan Gosling, I would like to recap

1286
00:59:13,200 --> 00:59:15,080
Speaker 3: this for you, And they hired me and I started

1287
00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:18,080
Speaker 3: recapping for them, which made me realize that I could

1288
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,840
Speaker 3: do freelance writing, and I could write in a way

1289
00:59:20,920 --> 00:59:23,360
Speaker 3: that was not purely academic and it was actually fun.

1290
00:59:23,840 --> 00:59:24,920
Speaker 2: And I also used it.

1291
00:59:25,240 --> 00:59:27,760
Speaker 3: I used that book as a way to like, I

1292
00:59:27,880 --> 00:59:29,920
Speaker 3: kind of wanted to add it, and I knew that

1293
00:59:29,960 --> 00:59:32,480
Speaker 3: it would help me when it was time for me

1294
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,280
Speaker 3: to apply for PhD programs because they love people who

1295
00:59:35,320 --> 00:59:38,080
Speaker 3: publish anything, and it was a very specific thing, and

1296
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 3: I was applying for you know, gender studies programs and

1297
00:59:40,640 --> 00:59:43,680
Speaker 3: communications and media programs, so I knew that that would

1298
00:59:43,680 --> 00:59:46,000
Speaker 3: help me stand out. It wouldn't necessarily help me get in,

1299
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:49,520
Speaker 3: but it helped me stand out, and I did. I

1300
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:52,800
Speaker 3: got offers from Emory and all over the place, and

1301
00:59:53,000 --> 00:59:57,840
Speaker 3: I chose the University of Washington in Seattle because my

1302
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 3: husband really wanted to be there, and I thought it

1303
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:02,880
Speaker 3: was it was a good balance and a good mix

1304
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 3: for my academic life and my personal life.

1305
01:00:06,640 --> 01:00:09,400
Speaker 2: And I'm gonna possibly ruffle some feathers right now, but

1306
01:00:09,560 --> 01:00:12,120
Speaker 2: I fucking hated Seattle. I hated it.

1307
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,160
Speaker 3: I have never been around meaner people in my entire life,

1308
01:00:15,240 --> 01:00:17,400
Speaker 3: and they have this thing called the Seattle Freeze where

1309
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,240
Speaker 3: it's like, oh yeah, for like two or three years,

1310
01:00:19,280 --> 01:00:21,760
Speaker 3: we just don't talk to you or interact with you.

1311
01:00:21,960 --> 01:00:23,200
Speaker 2: And I was like, that's not going to be me.

1312
01:00:23,600 --> 01:00:27,840
Speaker 2: I'm friendly, I'm gonna make friends. And it was just dour,

1313
01:00:28,360 --> 01:00:33,680
Speaker 2: mean people everywhere I looked, And truly, no one really

1314
01:00:33,720 --> 01:00:35,080
Speaker 2: wants to admit this one.

1315
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 3: Of the more racist places I've ever lived. Wow, not

1316
01:00:37,960 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 3: my favorite place. And you lived in Alaska and I

1317
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:43,920
Speaker 3: lived in goddamn Alaska. I grew up in farmtown and

1318
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,480
Speaker 3: I lived in Alaska. And Seattle was more racist than

1319
01:00:46,560 --> 01:00:49,040
Speaker 3: both of them combined. Like people would call me nigger

1320
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:50,160
Speaker 3: on the bush.

1321
01:00:50,960 --> 01:00:53,160
Speaker 2: Yeah it was bad. Yeah it was bad.

1322
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 3: And the Pacific Northwest has a lot of that, and

1323
01:00:55,240 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 3: nobody really wants to admit it, but it's true. So

1324
01:00:59,680 --> 01:01:02,040
Speaker 3: I was I was having a really hard time adjusting.

1325
01:01:02,480 --> 01:01:04,240
Speaker 3: I was really having a hard time in my PhD

1326
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 3: program because I felt like, you know, I chose communication

1327
01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:09,120
Speaker 3: in media studies because I thought that's what I wanted

1328
01:01:09,160 --> 01:01:11,480
Speaker 3: to do, but I just wasn't clicking with any of it,

1329
01:01:11,760 --> 01:01:14,160
Speaker 3: and I couldn't stand my professors, or at least one

1330
01:01:14,200 --> 01:01:15,840
Speaker 3: professor in particular, she was a real bitch.

1331
01:01:17,160 --> 01:01:18,640
Speaker 2: And then I looked around the room.

1332
01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:20,840
Speaker 3: One day and I was like, I'm going to be

1333
01:01:20,880 --> 01:01:22,800
Speaker 3: talking to the same seven people for the rest of

1334
01:01:22,840 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 3: my fucking life. I'm going to see them at conferences,

1335
01:01:25,080 --> 01:01:27,800
Speaker 3: I'm going to be writing papers to them. This is

1336
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:29,880
Speaker 3: my life forever if I stay here, and if I

1337
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 3: do this. My marriage wasn't in a good place I

1338
01:01:32,680 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 3: wasn't in a good place. I was depressed, I was sad.

1339
01:01:35,480 --> 01:01:38,560
Speaker 3: I was not well when I lived in Seattle. So

1340
01:01:38,840 --> 01:01:42,960
Speaker 3: I left my PhD program after the first semester and

1341
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,320
Speaker 3: I started writing for The Stranger. Eventually moved up and

1342
01:01:47,520 --> 01:01:49,920
Speaker 3: was the arts and culture editor for The Stranger for

1343
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 3: a little while, but I was still freelancing. I was

1344
01:01:53,000 --> 01:01:57,200
Speaker 3: able to afford my rent that way, and yeah, I

1345
01:01:57,360 --> 01:01:58,920
Speaker 3: just kind of did that for a little bit. And

1346
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,000
Speaker 3: then my marriage ended and I was like, I don't

1347
01:02:02,040 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 3: have a reason to.

1348
01:02:02,720 --> 01:02:03,920
Speaker 2: Have to stay in Seattle anymore.

1349
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:06,840
Speaker 3: So I packed up all my shit, put it in

1350
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:11,600
Speaker 3: a pod, and on January first of that year, I

1351
01:02:11,800 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 3: arrived back in New York City.

1352
01:02:14,000 --> 01:02:15,680
Speaker 2: Literally start like New Year. Knew me.

1353
01:02:16,200 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 3: Started off the New Year in New York and I

1354
01:02:18,520 --> 01:02:21,080
Speaker 3: lived in Harlem and I was freelancing and that was

1355
01:02:21,160 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 3: my job, and I was like, this is great.

1356
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:28,120
Speaker 2: Like I'm broke and I am scared, but I felt

1357
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:28,919
Speaker 2: like I was at home.

1358
01:02:29,360 --> 01:02:33,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, So how did you go from freelancing to television?

1359
01:02:33,400 --> 01:02:36,439
Speaker 1: I think that's a question you get asked probably a lot.

1360
01:02:37,080 --> 01:02:40,520
Speaker 3: My path the TV writing started in the same wild

1361
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:43,720
Speaker 3: way that everything in my life started, which was by

1362
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,520
Speaker 3: surprise and on a whim. I had been freelance writing

1363
01:02:47,640 --> 01:02:51,680
Speaker 3: for Vulture for a couple of years and I was

1364
01:02:51,760 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 3: recapping a bunch of shows. I recapt Scandal, I recapped,

1365
01:02:54,560 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 3: you know, Real Housewives like I was one of their

1366
01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:01,120
Speaker 3: heavy duty recappers for a while. And when my friend

1367
01:03:01,640 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 3: Julie Klausner, who I met during the feminist Ryan Gosling time,

1368
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 3: because I came home for the holidays to visit my grandma,

1369
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:09,400
Speaker 3: and she was like, you should be on my show.

1370
01:03:09,440 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 3: And I'm like, I'm going to be home for four days.

1371
01:03:12,240 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 3: I will if you could put me.

1372
01:03:13,920 --> 01:03:14,440
Speaker 2: In this window.

1373
01:03:15,040 --> 01:03:16,720
Speaker 3: And then we just hit it off and we've been

1374
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:21,320
Speaker 3: friends ever since. And she left her recapping duties of

1375
01:03:21,360 --> 01:03:24,760
Speaker 3: Real Housewives at Beverly Hills when difficult People got picked up.

1376
01:03:25,440 --> 01:03:28,000
Speaker 3: So she asked me if I would take over her recapping,

1377
01:03:28,040 --> 01:03:30,840
Speaker 3: and I said, yeah, I'll recap Real Housewives at Beverly Hills.

1378
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:35,600
Speaker 3: My agent found me through those recaps because I had

1379
01:03:35,680 --> 01:03:38,800
Speaker 3: one recap in particular where I did it in the

1380
01:03:38,960 --> 01:03:41,600
Speaker 3: voice of one of the more annoying characters on the show.

1381
01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,200
Speaker 3: I did the whole recap that way, and let me

1382
01:03:44,320 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 3: tell you, the fans were livid. They were like, who

1383
01:03:47,880 --> 01:03:49,560
Speaker 3: is this asshole doing the recap?

1384
01:03:49,680 --> 01:03:52,600
Speaker 2: We hate her. I felt like a piece of shit.

1385
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,480
Speaker 2: People did not like me at all. They're like, where's Julie.

1386
01:03:56,000 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 4: We don't want any of this.

1387
01:03:57,640 --> 01:03:59,960
Speaker 3: My agent called me the next day and was like, hey,

1388
01:04:00,360 --> 01:04:03,240
Speaker 3: I'm an agent and you write about television in a

1389
01:04:03,320 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 3: really funny way. Have you ever thought about writing for television?

1390
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:12,040
Speaker 3: And I was like, uh no, I haven't because who

1391
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:13,320
Speaker 3: just assumes they can do that?

1392
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:14,080
Speaker 4: Exactly.

1393
01:04:17,920 --> 01:04:21,000
Speaker 3: We really talked about it because I knew nothing about

1394
01:04:21,040 --> 01:04:23,840
Speaker 3: television writing, not a thing. But she worked with me,

1395
01:04:24,040 --> 01:04:27,240
Speaker 3: and she worked with me for almost a year and

1396
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:30,280
Speaker 3: like told me what a specscript is, walked me through

1397
01:04:30,320 --> 01:04:32,240
Speaker 3: the process of how people get hired, Like you write

1398
01:04:32,240 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 3: a specscript, you take some meetings, you know, you get

1399
01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:37,440
Speaker 3: hired on a show and you're a staff writer, and

1400
01:04:37,520 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 3: then you kind of work your way have to Like

1401
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 3: she explained everything to me as if I was five

1402
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 3: years old, because that's what I needed, and I wrote

1403
01:04:43,880 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 3: a spec script. I genuinely just took moments of my

1404
01:04:47,800 --> 01:04:50,160
Speaker 3: life and fictionalized them a little bit, and just like

1405
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:52,520
Speaker 3: that was my spec was just writing about like my

1406
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 3: insane family life, and I just made that my spec

1407
01:04:57,360 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 3: script for a half hour comedy. And through Julie, I

1408
01:05:00,720 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 3: had met Tom Sharpling and Tom was working on the

1409
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 3: show Divorce. And it's very rare to have a writer's

1410
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:10,520
Speaker 3: room in New York. Most most writers rooms are in

1411
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 3: LA And he was like, you know, you're funny and

1412
01:05:14,760 --> 01:05:16,640
Speaker 3: you're a person who's been divorced. And Julie till It

1413
01:05:16,640 --> 01:05:18,240
Speaker 3: tells me that you want to get into TV writing,

1414
01:05:18,600 --> 01:05:21,120
Speaker 3: like you should. You should submit your specscript to this show.

1415
01:05:21,320 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 3: And I was like, all right, So I did and

1416
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,120
Speaker 3: I got hired and I was That was my first

1417
01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:28,080
Speaker 3: staff writing job was writing for Divorce on HBO, and

1418
01:05:28,200 --> 01:05:30,080
Speaker 3: it was wild. It was a wild experience, and it

1419
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 3: was you know, a couple of months, but I got

1420
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:33,880
Speaker 3: to stay in New York and it was great, and

1421
01:05:34,000 --> 01:05:35,400
Speaker 3: it was just up from there.

1422
01:05:35,520 --> 01:05:35,680
Speaker 4: You know.

1423
01:05:35,760 --> 01:05:39,560
Speaker 3: My friend Patrick who I met, Patrick Somerville, and I

1424
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 3: met when he came to Wisconsin to interview me about

1425
01:05:42,200 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 3: feminist Ryan Gosling and we stayed in contact and stayed friends.

1426
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,760
Speaker 3: So when he started on Maniac, he was like, oh, yeah,

1427
01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:51,040
Speaker 3: you're doing TV writing now, right, Like you should check

1428
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:52,440
Speaker 3: this out, Like I think you'd like it. It's like

1429
01:05:52,440 --> 01:05:54,720
Speaker 3: it's really sci fi, it's really up your alley. And

1430
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 3: that was my second job. So there's like there's this

1431
01:05:58,920 --> 01:06:01,960
Speaker 3: level of nepotism in business that I've never benefited from.

1432
01:06:02,200 --> 01:06:04,400
Speaker 3: But in those two instances, I feel like my friends

1433
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 3: were looking out for me for sure, or at least

1434
01:06:06,440 --> 01:06:07,000
Speaker 3: willing to give me.

1435
01:06:07,040 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 2: The chance, which was cool. Yeah.

1436
01:06:09,720 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 1: And then at some point, because I know I used

1437
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:15,280
Speaker 1: to write for TV, but then you also wrote a memoir,

1438
01:06:16,680 --> 01:06:16,960
Speaker 1: was there?

1439
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:19,320
Speaker 4: Had you always wanted to write a book? Were you always?

1440
01:06:19,920 --> 01:06:22,200
Speaker 1: I mean, besides I know, the feminist Ryan Gosling book,

1441
01:06:22,240 --> 01:06:24,000
Speaker 1: but something that was a little bit more personal.

1442
01:06:24,480 --> 01:06:26,680
Speaker 3: I thought about it, and then I thought, I do

1443
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:28,680
Speaker 3: the thing that I that I used to always do,

1444
01:06:28,880 --> 01:06:32,640
Speaker 3: because I you know, I do have crushingly low self esteem,

1445
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:34,600
Speaker 3: or at least I used to have a very low

1446
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:36,480
Speaker 3: self esteem, and now I think I just have like

1447
01:06:36,600 --> 01:06:40,520
Speaker 3: a evened doubt a little bit. But I never thought

1448
01:06:40,600 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 3: my life story was worth writing about. I thought, like,

1449
01:06:43,240 --> 01:06:45,520
Speaker 3: things have happened to me, but weirder and wilder and

1450
01:06:45,600 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 3: worse things have happened to other people. So why would

1451
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:49,960
Speaker 3: I take up the space to write a book. And

1452
01:06:50,080 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 3: it wasn't until I met my literary agent, Christopher Schelling,

1453
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:57,960
Speaker 3: through my friend Rainbow Rainbow Row, who I met on Twitter,

1454
01:06:58,480 --> 01:07:00,120
Speaker 3: like just the Internet has been good to me so

1455
01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 3: many ways. But Rainbow was in town and we met

1456
01:07:03,560 --> 01:07:06,480
Speaker 3: and her we had dinner with Christopher, her agent, and

1457
01:07:06,600 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 3: his husband who's his husband's Augustin Burrows. And Augustin really

1458
01:07:11,600 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 3: doesn't like anybody, so I was just like, I'll go,

1459
01:07:16,960 --> 01:07:18,800
Speaker 3: Like I'll go, but if he doesn't like me, I'm

1460
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:21,440
Speaker 3: prepared for that, even though he's one of my favorite writers,

1461
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:23,320
Speaker 3: like I'm really.

1462
01:07:26,640 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 2: And he liked me.

1463
01:07:27,840 --> 01:07:32,280
Speaker 3: He liked me, so we just became friends and they

1464
01:07:32,360 --> 01:07:34,640
Speaker 3: moved out of New York into Connecticut, and I would

1465
01:07:34,640 --> 01:07:38,040
Speaker 3: go visit on the weekends, and Christopher and I talked about,

1466
01:07:38,440 --> 01:07:41,320
Speaker 3: you know, if he would be my agent and represent me,

1467
01:07:42,680 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 3: and I was like, yeah, but I don't know if

1468
01:07:43,800 --> 01:07:46,880
Speaker 3: I really want to write anything like that. And then

1469
01:07:46,960 --> 01:07:49,600
Speaker 3: Augustine was the one who really said to me, you

1470
01:07:49,640 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 3: know that the stories that you tell us around the

1471
01:07:52,040 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 3: dinner table when you visit are so funny and so great,

1472
01:07:55,400 --> 01:07:56,960
Speaker 3: and he's like, you know, wouldn't it be easier for

1473
01:07:57,000 --> 01:07:59,640
Speaker 3: you to just write a book and get in advance

1474
01:07:59,680 --> 01:08:02,280
Speaker 3: instead of struggling to make ends meet with freelance forever.

1475
01:08:02,920 --> 01:08:04,880
Speaker 3: And he kind of really just shifted my perspective on

1476
01:08:05,000 --> 01:08:08,040
Speaker 3: that a little bit and just in that way kind

1477
01:08:08,080 --> 01:08:11,640
Speaker 3: of thinking that like, oh, yeah, they're just stories. They're

1478
01:08:11,680 --> 01:08:14,280
Speaker 3: just stories that I'm telling. It's not like, you know,

1479
01:08:14,440 --> 01:08:18,160
Speaker 3: this tome that I'm writing. And that really helped. And Christopher.

1480
01:08:18,640 --> 01:08:22,640
Speaker 3: Christopher also helped because he he would say, remember that

1481
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:24,200
Speaker 3: story you told, Like, why don't you just write that

1482
01:08:24,240 --> 01:08:26,040
Speaker 3: down at a word doc, just like one or two pages?

1483
01:08:26,360 --> 01:08:26,800
Speaker 4: And I did.

1484
01:08:26,920 --> 01:08:28,320
Speaker 2: And then he'd say like, well what about this one?

1485
01:08:28,439 --> 01:08:29,160
Speaker 2: And I did?

1486
01:08:29,200 --> 01:08:30,800
Speaker 3: And I did that like three times, and then he

1487
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 3: was like, all right, let's put a bio on this,

1488
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:34,000
Speaker 3: because this is your pitch doc, Like, we'll put a

1489
01:08:34,040 --> 01:08:34,560
Speaker 3: bio on this.

1490
01:08:35,280 --> 01:08:37,040
Speaker 2: You just wrote three chapters of your book.

1491
01:08:37,240 --> 01:08:41,960
Speaker 3: And sneaky sall bring it around.

1492
01:08:42,120 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 2: I was like, what, that's it. He's like, yeah, that's it.

1493
01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:46,640
Speaker 2: So we did.

1494
01:08:46,720 --> 01:08:50,679
Speaker 3: We took it around and I sold it at auction

1495
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,439
Speaker 3: and I sold it to Simon and Schuster and then

1496
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,920
Speaker 3: a couple months after I signed with them, Simon and

1497
01:08:56,960 --> 01:09:02,120
Speaker 3: Schuster signed Milo Ianopolis, who was that horrible racist shitthead

1498
01:09:02,520 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 3: who basically led the attack on Leslie Jones and called

1499
01:09:06,040 --> 01:09:07,680
Speaker 3: black women gorillas.

1500
01:09:07,479 --> 01:09:10,200
Speaker 2: And was just a real piece of shit.

1501
01:09:10,600 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 1: I'm glad that you have to say remember him because

1502
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 1: it meant that he fucking went away at some point.

1503
01:09:17,600 --> 01:09:18,519
Speaker 2: But Jesus like.

1504
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,040
Speaker 3: Mm hmm that he was very prominent for a while.

1505
01:09:22,600 --> 01:09:24,720
Speaker 3: And so when they signed him, I had a real

1506
01:09:24,800 --> 01:09:27,040
Speaker 3: talk with Christopher about how uncomfortable I was, and I

1507
01:09:27,160 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 3: asked him, like, you know, if I don't want to

1508
01:09:29,800 --> 01:09:31,920
Speaker 3: work with them, will I get to write this book

1509
01:09:31,960 --> 01:09:32,639
Speaker 3: for anyone else?

1510
01:09:32,880 --> 01:09:34,960
Speaker 2: Or will I just be like that asshole who gave

1511
01:09:35,080 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 2: up her publishing deal.

1512
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:39,280
Speaker 3: And he was like, I will support you no matter

1513
01:09:39,360 --> 01:09:41,920
Speaker 3: what you want to do, and of course you can

1514
01:09:42,080 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 3: sell this book again, and of course you can write

1515
01:09:43,760 --> 01:09:47,439
Speaker 3: this book again. And he was incredibly supportive. And I

1516
01:09:47,479 --> 01:09:49,800
Speaker 3: don't even know if I'm legally allowed to talk about

1517
01:09:49,800 --> 01:09:51,880
Speaker 3: all this, but I'm happy to tell the story and

1518
01:09:51,960 --> 01:09:55,040
Speaker 3: we can cut it if we need to. But yeah,

1519
01:09:55,120 --> 01:09:58,320
Speaker 3: he really was the architect of that for me and

1520
01:09:58,360 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 3: helped because I just said I don't want to do

1521
01:09:59,800 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 3: this and he's like, I gotcha, And he got me

1522
01:10:01,439 --> 01:10:02,800
Speaker 3: out of my contract and I had to give them

1523
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:07,400
Speaker 3: all their money back, which I did, and they still

1524
01:10:07,520 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 3: didn't want to release me from the contract until it

1525
01:10:10,160 --> 01:10:12,599
Speaker 3: was up a year later, which is a shithead move.

1526
01:10:13,400 --> 01:10:15,280
Speaker 3: So they basically held my book costage for a year

1527
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:17,960
Speaker 3: because I couldn't write it for anyone, and so I

1528
01:10:18,080 --> 01:10:19,799
Speaker 3: was like, that's all right, I'm still working, I'm starting

1529
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 3: this TV writing thing. I'll just pivot over here. I

1530
01:10:22,720 --> 01:10:24,640
Speaker 3: was out to LA for like six months, and I

1531
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:26,599
Speaker 3: would really go back and forth, like for the first

1532
01:10:26,600 --> 01:10:29,800
Speaker 3: couple of years of my TV writing career. I would

1533
01:10:29,840 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 3: be out here for six months and then be in

1534
01:10:31,360 --> 01:10:32,880
Speaker 3: New York for six months, and it was hard to

1535
01:10:33,320 --> 01:10:35,439
Speaker 3: navigate that because I had to find like cat sitters

1536
01:10:35,520 --> 01:10:37,280
Speaker 3: and friends who would stay in my apartment, and then

1537
01:10:37,280 --> 01:10:39,200
Speaker 3: I had to find places out here and I had

1538
01:10:39,240 --> 01:10:40,800
Speaker 3: to pay for them on my own out of pocket.

1539
01:10:40,840 --> 01:10:42,679
Speaker 3: And I wasn't really getting paid up for TV writing

1540
01:10:42,760 --> 01:10:45,880
Speaker 3: to support two apartments and the most expensive cities in

1541
01:10:45,960 --> 01:10:46,759
Speaker 3: this fucking country.

1542
01:10:47,280 --> 01:10:48,080
Speaker 2: And it was hard.

1543
01:10:48,280 --> 01:10:51,920
Speaker 3: It was really really hard. And I had also i'd

1544
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:54,680
Speaker 3: optioned my book proposal at that point. I came out

1545
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:57,439
Speaker 3: to LA and did a bunch of meetings and optioned

1546
01:10:57,479 --> 01:11:00,800
Speaker 3: it to Annapurna and Paul Figue was going to direct it,

1547
01:11:01,040 --> 01:11:03,840
Speaker 3: and then that just ended up falling through. But that

1548
01:11:03,960 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 3: felt like a big deal thing and I got a

1549
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:07,040
Speaker 3: little bit of cash infusion from that and that was

1550
01:11:07,120 --> 01:11:09,400
Speaker 3: kind of cool. But then, yeah, I came, you know,

1551
01:11:09,520 --> 01:11:11,200
Speaker 3: came back to New York, was able to sell the

1552
01:11:11,240 --> 01:11:14,120
Speaker 3: book again, ended up at Viking, which is just a

1553
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:16,679
Speaker 3: dream come true and it should have been my first choice.

1554
01:11:18,080 --> 01:11:21,200
Speaker 2: But my editor there, Andrea Schultz, she's just she's the best.

1555
01:11:21,280 --> 01:11:24,080
Speaker 3: Andrew Schultz is the best and was very patient with

1556
01:11:25,040 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 3: my writing of this book because it was it was hard.

1557
01:11:27,400 --> 01:11:28,800
Speaker 3: It was a lot harder than I thought it would

1558
01:11:28,800 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 3: be in ways I didn't expect it to be cause

1559
01:11:31,040 --> 01:11:33,320
Speaker 3: I'm kind of, you know, I'm mining my deepest trauma.

1560
01:11:33,439 --> 01:11:35,439
Speaker 3: I haven't talked to my mom in like twenty years,

1561
01:11:35,960 --> 01:11:38,240
Speaker 3: and I'm really going through the toughest parts of my

1562
01:11:38,320 --> 01:11:42,479
Speaker 3: life and writing about it again. And I got really depressed,

1563
01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:45,200
Speaker 3: and it was I was stunted for a long time,

1564
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:48,599
Speaker 3: like I could not proceed. And she was so patient.

1565
01:11:48,640 --> 01:11:51,120
Speaker 3: They were so great with me and really helped me through.

1566
01:11:52,040 --> 01:11:53,640
Speaker 3: And I had this big fear, you know, I had

1567
01:11:53,680 --> 01:11:56,040
Speaker 3: a lot of fear about putting this kind of book

1568
01:11:56,080 --> 01:11:58,519
Speaker 3: out in the world. It was very personal and it

1569
01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,320
Speaker 3: felt like a big deal to me, and I didn't

1570
01:12:00,360 --> 01:12:01,519
Speaker 3: want to get it wrong. And I knew if I

1571
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,400
Speaker 3: was writing from this place of depression, I was going

1572
01:12:03,479 --> 01:12:06,400
Speaker 3: to get it wrong. So thankfully they're a patient. And

1573
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:08,360
Speaker 3: it was also, you know, it's also hard to work

1574
01:12:08,400 --> 01:12:11,280
Speaker 3: in TV and be writing a book. And I don't know,

1575
01:12:11,360 --> 01:12:14,280
Speaker 3: it's just it was really difficult for not coal mining difficult,

1576
01:12:14,280 --> 01:12:15,400
Speaker 3: but difficult for a few years.

1577
01:12:15,800 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 2: But I got through it. My book was a couple

1578
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 2: of years.

1579
01:12:17,920 --> 01:12:24,479
Speaker 3: Late, but I got through it. And I'm actually I'm

1580
01:12:24,600 --> 01:12:27,920
Speaker 3: really proud of what I wrote that I can't wait

1581
01:12:27,960 --> 01:12:28,600
Speaker 3: for people to read it.

1582
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,559
Speaker 4: Oh my god. I know, I just feel like I've

1583
01:12:31,600 --> 01:12:35,560
Speaker 4: been waiting to, you know, have it come out in

1584
01:12:35,600 --> 01:12:38,120
Speaker 4: the world, you know what I mean. And I'm so excited.

1585
01:12:38,160 --> 01:12:42,559
Speaker 1: I'm sure everybody is just based on what you've told

1586
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:44,960
Speaker 1: us in the past hour and a half or you know,

1587
01:12:45,240 --> 01:12:49,080
Speaker 1: like I mean, that's just like I can't imagine it's

1588
01:12:49,120 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 1: going to be so awesome to just read the things

1589
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 1: that you've experienced. I mean, I guess that's kind of

1590
01:12:57,479 --> 01:13:00,160
Speaker 1: like why I wanted to do this because I just

1591
01:13:00,240 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: knew you had so many interesting points in your life

1592
01:13:04,400 --> 01:13:08,760
Speaker 1: that like, let's get serious, like most people don't do

1593
01:13:09,000 --> 01:13:11,719
Speaker 1: this stuff, and the fact that you've done it pretty

1594
01:13:11,760 --> 01:13:14,000
Speaker 1: much on your own. I mean, you say you have

1595
01:13:14,120 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 1: low self esteem, but you to me, it doesn't seem

1596
01:13:17,160 --> 01:13:20,080
Speaker 1: that way. You seem super fearless and super competent, and

1597
01:13:20,160 --> 01:13:22,559
Speaker 1: I just I mean, maybe those two are maybe that's

1598
01:13:22,600 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 1: all different stuff anyway, but I feel like you're just

1599
01:13:24,960 --> 01:13:28,480
Speaker 1: such an interesting person and very inspiring.

1600
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 4: So I'm so glad.

1601
01:13:30,320 --> 01:13:33,439
Speaker 1: I'm so glad that I got to pick your brain

1602
01:13:33,560 --> 01:13:36,200
Speaker 1: a little bit for this bonus at But I also

1603
01:13:36,280 --> 01:13:39,479
Speaker 1: want to ask, like, maybe as a final question, so

1604
01:13:39,720 --> 01:13:43,280
Speaker 1: like we're in twenty twenty one now and now, to

1605
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:46,559
Speaker 1: be completely terry gross, but like what you got coming

1606
01:13:46,640 --> 01:13:49,400
Speaker 1: up on the horizon, What's what's life going to be

1607
01:13:49,600 --> 01:13:52,880
Speaker 1: like in twenty twenty one? For Daniel Henderson, Well, I'm

1608
01:13:52,880 --> 01:13:59,519
Speaker 1: starting a cult. I'm sewing our outfits by myself. No, actually,

1609
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:03,200
Speaker 1: I'm I'm currently writing a proposal for my next book,

1610
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:05,320
Speaker 1: which will be all about Alaska and the time I

1611
01:14:05,400 --> 01:14:06,040
Speaker 1: spent living there.

1612
01:14:06,479 --> 01:14:10,479
Speaker 2: So you got a little preview, Yeah, I love it. Exclusive, Yeah,

1613
01:14:11,160 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 2: write in a book.

1614
01:14:12,000 --> 01:14:15,760
Speaker 3: I'm doing this incredibly cool podcast with like the smartest

1615
01:14:15,880 --> 01:14:19,560
Speaker 3: and funniest person I know. So but yeah, I just

1616
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:21,479
Speaker 3: I those are the things that are exciting to me

1617
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:23,600
Speaker 3: right now. Is that I've crafted a life where I

1618
01:14:23,640 --> 01:14:26,200
Speaker 3: can write for a living is an absolute fucking miracle

1619
01:14:26,280 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 3: to me. And the fact that I get to do

1620
01:14:29,439 --> 01:14:32,000
Speaker 3: something like this with a friend and have a platform

1621
01:14:32,120 --> 01:14:35,240
Speaker 3: and have like a creative outlet. I just want more

1622
01:14:35,320 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 3: of that, you know. I want that to be the

1623
01:14:37,520 --> 01:14:39,360
Speaker 3: rest of my life, you know, forty three I want

1624
01:14:39,439 --> 01:14:40,080
Speaker 3: that to be it.

1625
01:14:40,479 --> 01:14:41,400
Speaker 2: That is what I do now.

1626
01:14:42,240 --> 01:14:45,679
Speaker 3: So I think, you know, on top of that, it's

1627
01:14:45,720 --> 01:14:48,200
Speaker 3: probably not something that people usually list as like a

1628
01:14:48,280 --> 01:14:50,000
Speaker 3: thing that they plan to do in the future. But

1629
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:53,639
Speaker 3: I'm also really proud of myself for getting a hold

1630
01:14:53,680 --> 01:14:55,680
Speaker 3: of like my mental health issues, and I hope to

1631
01:14:55,880 --> 01:14:59,439
Speaker 3: just kind of that I can keep going through the

1632
01:14:59,560 --> 01:15:02,240
Speaker 3: therapeut process in a way that benefits me, because it

1633
01:15:02,360 --> 01:15:04,920
Speaker 3: has in the last couple of years really changed my life,

1634
01:15:04,960 --> 01:15:07,680
Speaker 3: and I'm starting I feel like I'm coming into my

1635
01:15:07,800 --> 01:15:12,360
Speaker 3: own and I'm not really as afraid of myself as

1636
01:15:12,400 --> 01:15:12,920
Speaker 3: I used to be.

1637
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:15,360
Speaker 2: So I think that's kind of those.

1638
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:19,040
Speaker 1: Are like my mean, yeah, that is definitely an accomplishment.

1639
01:15:19,720 --> 01:15:22,600
Speaker 1: I mean, it's probably the first thing anyone needs to

1640
01:15:22,680 --> 01:15:24,320
Speaker 1: do before.

1641
01:15:24,080 --> 01:15:25,160
Speaker 2: They do all this other stuff.

1642
01:15:25,680 --> 01:15:28,240
Speaker 3: You know, so agree, I know that therapy is so

1643
01:15:28,400 --> 01:15:31,000
Speaker 3: great and I just more than anything, it helped me

1644
01:15:31,040 --> 01:15:34,559
Speaker 3: recognize patterns and patterns of my life that were enacted

1645
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,280
Speaker 3: by the things that I went through as a kid.

1646
01:15:36,600 --> 01:15:38,240
Speaker 3: And there are things that I would never think were

1647
01:15:38,320 --> 01:15:41,919
Speaker 3: tied to my childhood that are absolutely tied to my childhood.

1648
01:15:41,960 --> 01:15:43,559
Speaker 3: And how I react and how I talk to people,

1649
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:45,080
Speaker 3: and you know, how I feel what I'm threatened, and

1650
01:15:45,160 --> 01:15:47,600
Speaker 3: how I feel when I'm scared, and all of that

1651
01:15:47,720 --> 01:15:50,400
Speaker 3: is tied to you. So yeah, therapy, I'm going to

1652
01:15:50,840 --> 01:15:52,120
Speaker 3: recommend it every chance we get.

1653
01:15:52,240 --> 01:15:55,040
Speaker 1: Well, gosh, thanks so much for sharing all of that.

1654
01:15:55,400 --> 01:15:58,880
Speaker 1: I hope it wasn't too personal. I mean, I oh,

1655
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:03,200
Speaker 1: I'm so lucky to be sitting here with you right now.

1656
01:16:03,560 --> 01:16:05,880
Speaker 1: I'm so lucky you didn't get killed by a black bear.

1657
01:16:06,840 --> 01:16:11,840
Speaker 1: I mean, Jesus Age Christ, that's like a fear that

1658
01:16:11,960 --> 01:16:15,720
Speaker 1: I have that will completely be unfounded, I'm sure, but

1659
01:16:15,800 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 1: I'm just like, man, going toe to toe with a

1660
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,000
Speaker 1: bear is definitely we.

1661
01:16:21,040 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 3: Could do a whole episode of What Were Your Worst

1662
01:16:24,160 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 3: Decisions Before age twenty seven? But I do feel lucky,

1663
01:16:29,640 --> 01:16:31,920
Speaker 3: and I'm just thank you for making this easy to

1664
01:16:32,040 --> 01:16:36,439
Speaker 3: talk about my life and make it fun. And the

1665
01:16:36,840 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 3: biggest part of the reason why it's fun and easy

1666
01:16:38,960 --> 01:16:40,720
Speaker 3: to do is because you're really a great friend and

1667
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:43,479
Speaker 3: you're really a great person, and I'm just very excited

1668
01:16:43,520 --> 01:16:45,160
Speaker 3: that we get to talk to each other every week.

1669
01:16:45,640 --> 01:16:49,880
Speaker 4: Oh my gosh. Well the feeling is mutual and I

1670
01:16:50,040 --> 01:16:51,280
Speaker 4: love you. Thanks for doing this.

1671
01:16:51,640 --> 01:16:53,000
Speaker 2: I love you too well.

1672
01:16:53,040 --> 01:16:55,519
Speaker 4: I hope you enjoyed it. Everybody, I mean, what else

1673
01:16:55,600 --> 01:16:55,800
Speaker 4: do you.

1674
01:16:55,840 --> 01:16:57,639
Speaker 2: Want from us? For given?

1675
01:16:57,720 --> 01:17:00,720
Speaker 4: And given it's the whole story? What can I say?

1676
01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 4: Got an exclusive? God damn it? But yeah, I guess like, thanks.

1677
01:17:06,840 --> 01:17:10,040
Speaker 2: For listening and come on back to the main feed

1678
01:17:10,200 --> 01:17:13,040
Speaker 2: and we'll have an episode for you. See, y'all sad.

1679
01:17:18,800 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 3: This has been an exactly right production. Our producer is

1680
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:24,679
Speaker 3: Laurena Elizabeth Brown. Our engineer is Annalie Nelson. Our social

1681
01:17:24,760 --> 01:17:28,480
Speaker 3: media assistant is Taren Maza. Our theme songs by Tom Bryfogel,

1682
01:17:28,720 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 3: artwork by Garrett Ross. Our executive producers are Georgia Hardstark,

1683
01:17:32,280 --> 01:17:35,040
Speaker 3: Karen Colgareth and Danielle Kramer. You can follow us on

1684
01:17:35,160 --> 01:17:38,280
Speaker 3: Instagram and Twitter at I saw Pod, and as always,

1685
01:17:38,360 --> 01:17:42,679
Speaker 3: please listen, subscribe, and leave us a review on Apple Podcast, Stitcher,

1686
01:17:42,840 --> 01:17:43,920
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen