WEBVTT - What Does It Mean To Be “Family,” with Melissa Etheridge and Sara Lamm 0:00:02.800 --> 0:00:05.600 I'm Baritun Day Thurston and this is Spit and I 0:00:05.720 --> 0:00:08.960 Heart Radio podcast with twenty three and me. This is 0:00:09.000 --> 0:00:12.320 the podcast that explores how DNA is changing our lives 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:15.720 and the world around us. Today, we're exploring what does 0:00:15.760 --> 0:00:18.840 it mean to be family? Family's family? You can make 0:00:18.920 --> 0:00:22.120 family Famili's love. That's the bond we have and blood 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:26.280 is a whole other story. I am joined by multiple 0:00:26.320 --> 0:00:30.920 Grammy Award winning rock star and activist Melissa Ethridge. Melissa 0:00:31.000 --> 0:00:34.960 is in between two types of DNA related stories. Looking backwards, 0:00:35.360 --> 0:00:39.400 she uncovered amazing and alarming facts about her ancestors. Looking forward, 0:00:39.760 --> 0:00:42.760 Melissa is the mother of four children conceived by two 0:00:42.800 --> 0:00:45.480 different sperm donors, neither of whom is named Brad Pitt 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.720 by the way, but we'll get back to that. Also, 0:00:47.800 --> 0:00:51.800 we have documentary filmmaker Sarah Lamb now at age twenty nine. 0:00:52.240 --> 0:00:55.000 Sarah discovered that she was conceived by a sperm donor, 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:57.840 and in her film Thank You for Coming, she goes 0:00:57.880 --> 0:01:01.040 looking for him. Her genealogical to active journey takes her 0:01:01.040 --> 0:01:04.680 from Hawaii to North Carolina, chasing non existing medical records 0:01:04.720 --> 0:01:08.200 and forging a bond with a possible sister. So Melissa, 0:01:08.360 --> 0:01:12.319 welcome and Sarah welcome. Thank you so much. Hi, it 0:01:12.440 --> 0:01:15.080 is really great to have you both in the studio. 0:01:15.440 --> 0:01:17.280 And I was standing Sarah earlier. I will say it 0:01:17.319 --> 0:01:20.120 for our listeners. We Sarah are in a recording session 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.840 with Melissa. It's just the best looking ones I've had 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:31.320 a long time. Both of you. You're just beautiful. So 0:01:33.800 --> 0:01:35.080 I have to get this out of the way, Sarah. 0:01:35.120 --> 0:01:36.399 Can I just say to both of you thank you 0:01:36.440 --> 0:01:41.120 for coming? And I know Melissa that you write amazing lyrics, 0:01:41.160 --> 0:01:42.560 but I have to get hand it to you on 0:01:42.560 --> 0:01:45.080 a sperm donor movie, Sarah. To call it thank you 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:51.559 for coming is incredible, well played. So Melissa and Sarah, 0:01:51.560 --> 0:01:55.440 we're gonna talk a bit about biological family. Melissa, you 0:01:55.520 --> 0:01:58.720 thought your ancestors were just average poor wife faulk. Yeah, 0:01:58.760 --> 0:02:02.360 that's exactly exact, you know, migrant farmer poor. I mean 0:02:02.360 --> 0:02:05.000 they were, they were very, very poor. But you also 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:09.680 have in this story through your genealogical detective saga, business success, 0:02:09.919 --> 0:02:14.040 a love affair, lavery right. There are all these elements 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.880 that were not shared with you that we're so you 0:02:16.919 --> 0:02:18.720 were filling in a blank. You didn't know existed and 0:02:19.480 --> 0:02:22.960 over wrote that story. Can you share a bit about 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:26.840 how you were able to integrate this new story of 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:30.560 your family history into the story of yourself. I think 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:32.840 the greatest thing that it did for me was to 0:02:33.000 --> 0:02:36.920 really loosen up that solid oh this is who I 0:02:36.960 --> 0:02:39.040 am and this is where I come from, that we 0:02:39.080 --> 0:02:41.799 are raised with and and then you start to realize, oh, well, 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:43.920 that's just a story that two people told me. You 0:02:43.960 --> 0:02:49.280 know that that that really that that wasn't uh brought 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:51.639 down from the ages. I mean, I believe there are 0:02:51.680 --> 0:02:53.920 some families that are raised and with such history that 0:02:54.000 --> 0:02:57.520 you're not surprised when you like the royal family, Yeah, yeah, 0:02:57.520 --> 0:03:00.120 they they've got that down. But you know the is 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:02.520 that we're just trying to stay alive. You know, they're there. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.440 And and then you you could you could see that 0:03:06.480 --> 0:03:10.919 there were marriages that weren't uh you know, the family 0:03:10.960 --> 0:03:12.840 didn't agree with. So you could see people didn't talk 0:03:12.840 --> 0:03:15.640 about I didn't know my family came from Catholic limbs. 0:03:15.680 --> 0:03:17.480 I mean that that blew my mind because you know, 0:03:17.520 --> 0:03:21.000 I just again just you know, white Protestant sort of 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:23.360 what was what I was surrounded with. You know, so 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.480 for a couple of generations. But boy, once you get 0:03:25.480 --> 0:03:27.920 back there, you start to realize. And I think it 0:03:27.960 --> 0:03:31.320 didn't mean that anything was any different about my childhood. 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.160 It just meant that, oh, the stories that we tell 0:03:34.920 --> 0:03:41.600 are are limiting us, and that, my goodness, your story 0:03:41.600 --> 0:03:44.440 could be anything. So why limit yourself by a story? 0:03:44.480 --> 0:03:47.280 Why not create the story you want to create right now? 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:50.640 And and on the subject of creating a new story, 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:53.240 I'm gonna stick with you because you have these children, 0:03:53.960 --> 0:03:56.800 and you have created them, you know, in a very 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.880 technical sense, which you exercised even more choy uh in 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:05.760 some ways than what the average parent is able to do. Yeah, 0:04:06.040 --> 0:04:09.560 so you have two sets of children from two different 0:04:09.560 --> 0:04:13.160 sperm donors. And from what I heard on the internet, 0:04:13.160 --> 0:04:16.720 which always is al, I'm bringing it to the studio 0:04:16.839 --> 0:04:18.640 so you can lay it out for me and the 0:04:18.680 --> 0:04:22.200 people I heard you had a chance to have Brad, 0:04:22.760 --> 0:04:26.400 which seems to me followed me for the for my 0:04:26.480 --> 0:04:31.160 whole Because when that's the very first thing we're gonna 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:33.760 google right now, you might tell us what the story 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:38.880 is once. I think at first I joked about it 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.000 someone because he was he was been, he was a 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:44.039 friend of mine before he made them with Louise. He 0:04:44.120 --> 0:04:46.200 was just this this guy that hung out with a 0:04:46.240 --> 0:04:48.839 lot of us young Hollywood folks in the you know, 0:04:48.960 --> 0:04:51.120 late eighties, and we were all trying to make it 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:52.480 and he was from the Midwest, and we got a long, 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:53.960 real well and he liked my first album and it 0:04:54.400 --> 0:05:00.200 was fine. And I think I once his star went boom, people, well, 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:01.719 who's Brad Pitt to you? I said, I don't know 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:03.480 the father of my children. I thought that was funny. 0:05:03.920 --> 0:05:06.120 You know, that's a funny little laugh. And I think 0:05:06.160 --> 0:05:08.160 at one point we both worked out the same gym 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.040 and I said, do you think I don't think so. 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:15.239 I think that'd be weird because he wanted children so bad, 0:05:15.880 --> 0:05:19.520 he really did that. I was looking for someone who 0:05:19.520 --> 0:05:22.839 would say, Okay, here's here's the missing piece that you need. 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:30.240 And my first baby mama, my first my first wife, 0:05:31.839 --> 0:05:36.880 call it mark it up historic anyway, she was adopted, 0:05:37.240 --> 0:05:39.840 so she really wanted her children to know who their 0:05:39.880 --> 0:05:42.760 father was, who everybody was, and that that was important 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.360 to her. So we needed to have a donor that 0:05:45.360 --> 0:05:47.479 that would at least say, yeah, that was me. But 0:05:47.640 --> 0:05:49.520 didn't really want to because I didn't want anyone else 0:05:49.520 --> 0:05:51.720 to raise them. It wasn't that I wanted another parent. 0:05:52.240 --> 0:05:56.240 So when David and Jan Crosby when they were in 0:05:56.320 --> 0:05:59.520 my life, we were we were in Hawaii visiting them 0:05:59.720 --> 0:06:02.480 and had just had their baby, and we were we 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:04.880 were knew that we were looking for this, and and 0:06:05.040 --> 0:06:07.160 Chance said, well what about David and we kind of 0:06:07.200 --> 0:06:09.559 talked about it. That's perfect. He has so many children 0:06:09.600 --> 0:06:14.080 that he doesn't that he didn't know, but but it 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:16.360 makes my my two oldest children, makes their lives there 0:06:16.400 --> 0:06:18.760 When people say, oh, tell me about your family, they're like, oh, really, 0:06:18.800 --> 0:06:21.279 you want to know this because it's a long story. 0:06:21.320 --> 0:06:23.640 But they do know. They do know who their fathers. 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:26.799 And and then the other two with the second baby 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:33.400 Mama that they um, she we didn't want another sort 0:06:33.400 --> 0:06:37.200 of parental It wasn't. And it's funny because you know, 0:06:37.240 --> 0:06:40.040 they're eleven year old twins and they don't think about 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:44.840 dad at all. It is not. They are so clear that, oh, yeah, 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:47.080 I was a donor and he was you know, Swedish, 0:06:47.440 --> 0:06:50.400 blonde hair, blue eye. They just know that and it's fine. 0:06:50.440 --> 0:06:53.359 They're not looking for that. They've got so many parents, 0:06:53.440 --> 0:06:55.320 they've got two sets of parents and you know, and 0:06:55.360 --> 0:06:58.560 they're they're full with that, So it's it's I mean 0:06:58.760 --> 0:07:02.040 that might change later, but not now. Sarah. Hearing that, 0:07:02.160 --> 0:07:05.039 does it make you think about how the introduction of 0:07:05.080 --> 0:07:08.960 that information about your biological father being a donor, if 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:11.000 that had been brought to you sooner, like say when 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:15.920 you were eleven or six, how do you from if 0:07:16.000 --> 0:07:18.320 you're raised with that, then you're like, Okay, I get it. 0:07:18.360 --> 0:07:20.960 There's there's an ingredient, there's a physical ingredient that needs 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:25.360 to be there to create a life. And and then 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.239 there's the man who raised you. Then there's the person 0:07:28.320 --> 0:07:30.560 who raises you. And I think if you've raised with that, 0:07:30.640 --> 0:07:33.600 it's not an issue. But man to pull that on you, 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.160 you know, and and not to know you? Oh that 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:38.920 that that must be hard. Yeah, I think you're right now, Sarah. 0:07:38.960 --> 0:07:41.920 When you were twenty nine, your father, the man who 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:45.480 raised you, told you that he wasn't your biological father, 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:49.840 that you didn't share DNA. And I remember this line 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:52.880 from your film really clearly. You said, to have one 0:07:53.000 --> 0:07:55.640 story ripped from you and nothing put in its place 0:07:56.120 --> 0:07:58.920 is not a good feeling. Can you share with us 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.400 more d tales of what that not good? Feeling entailed. 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.960 Was it lost, anger, sadness, confusure, Yeah, I think it was. 0:08:07.120 --> 0:08:09.360 I think it was some of all of that. I 0:08:09.400 --> 0:08:13.400 think um from the very outset. I think one of 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.600 the things that I always knew is that anything could 0:08:15.640 --> 0:08:18.200 happen in the future. I never dreamed that anything could 0:08:18.240 --> 0:08:23.200 happen in the past time travel like editing of your past. Absolutely, 0:08:23.200 --> 0:08:26.080 it was like it was a full turning upside down 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:28.120 of what I thought I knew, and things that I 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:32.840 thought were solid were no longer so solid. And because 0:08:33.080 --> 0:08:36.200 the people who were using sperm donors in the nineteen seventies, 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:38.280 and there were a lot more of them than people realized, 0:08:38.320 --> 0:08:40.680 but all the doctors were telling them never to tell anyone, 0:08:41.280 --> 0:08:43.920 never to tell the offspring, and certainly never to tell 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:47.080 their relatives. So my mother didn't tell her sisters, with 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:49.880 whom she was very close, not like she told almost nobody. 0:08:50.040 --> 0:08:53.119 Was that a sense of shame or like a legal imposition. 0:08:53.320 --> 0:08:56.040 I think it was a combination of things. The main 0:08:56.240 --> 0:08:59.320 thing was that the doctors told them not to, and 0:08:59.400 --> 0:09:02.840 we do what and we do what doctors said, And 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:06.280 so for me, it was like one of those moments 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:08.839 the stereotype of like your knees go out and you 0:09:08.880 --> 0:09:11.560 have to sit down. That's what happened when my dad 0:09:11.559 --> 0:09:13.400 told me. And I even had this out of body 0:09:13.440 --> 0:09:15.839 moment where I thought, like, oh, I'm doing that thing 0:09:15.960 --> 0:09:17.840 that they do in movies where I have to go 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:21.080 and sit down because I'm gonna, you know, fall over otherwise. 0:09:21.720 --> 0:09:24.240 And then it just became wait a minute. My dad 0:09:24.240 --> 0:09:26.800 has told me that he's not biologically related to me, 0:09:27.160 --> 0:09:30.320 but the system is saying that I don't have access 0:09:30.320 --> 0:09:32.760 to that information. And so it was like, I'm going 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:34.720 to tell you the story that I'm not your dad, 0:09:34.880 --> 0:09:38.000 but are not your biological father, but you have no 0:09:38.080 --> 0:09:42.000 way of knowing who is who. You can't fill in 0:09:42.000 --> 0:09:44.480 that blank right And for me, that did bring up 0:09:44.520 --> 0:09:47.480 some anger because I really felt and still feel, that 0:09:48.120 --> 0:09:52.080 my genetic information is mine and that that's information that 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.440 I that every human being has a right to have, 0:09:55.200 --> 0:09:57.559 even when it's attached to another person, even when it's 0:09:57.600 --> 0:10:01.199 attached to another person. Fascinating eating as I've gone out 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:02.840 and talk to people, there are a lot of people 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.720 in my position, and especially people who are taking DNA 0:10:05.760 --> 0:10:09.040 tests now and getting big surprises, and it's like everything 0:10:09.080 --> 0:10:11.319 is a more posh moment, right, I mean, it's really, 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:13.240 it's really happening a lot. And I'm on a lot 0:10:13.280 --> 0:10:16.200 of the Facebook groups for people who are donor conceived, 0:10:16.240 --> 0:10:18.840 and it's like every day somebody is showing up who's saying, like, 0:10:18.880 --> 0:10:21.040 I just got my results back and it turns out 0:10:21.080 --> 0:10:25.679 I've got fifteen half siblings And what do I do? Folks? 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:27.960 How does this all work? So, you know, as I've 0:10:27.960 --> 0:10:30.520 been absorbing not just my own story but the story 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:33.480 of other people, I really have started to feel strongly 0:10:33.480 --> 0:10:36.400 that it's so important to tell people, tell kids their 0:10:36.440 --> 0:10:40.360 authentic story as much as possible from the get go. 0:10:41.080 --> 0:10:44.040 And so is do you think the withholding of that, 0:10:44.120 --> 0:10:48.360 first of all, in your donor conceived circles and the 0:10:48.440 --> 0:10:51.880 parents of the donor conceived, is there a movement to 0:10:52.320 --> 0:10:54.679 share that earlier? Is there a trend in that direction 0:10:54.800 --> 0:10:57.760 or is there are parents feeling protective of their pride. 0:10:57.840 --> 0:11:01.040 I think it really depends. And in the lesbian community, 0:11:01.440 --> 0:11:05.000 it's very opens. There's no shame involved here, there's not 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.600 the old this, And I think I think we're going 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:11.760 through this on a worldwide thing, this sort of blood, 0:11:12.440 --> 0:11:16.040 the idea of blood and family and mine and my 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:19.679 tribe and how that's being blown apart by stuff like this. 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:23.280 So the truth is, you know, families, family you you 0:11:23.280 --> 0:11:26.520 you can make family, families love. That's the bond we have. 0:11:26.960 --> 0:11:29.559 And blood is a whole nother story. It's interesting, it's great, 0:11:30.080 --> 0:11:31.760 but it is it. It's a whole thing. And I 0:11:31.800 --> 0:11:35.400 think the LGBT community can absolutely relate to that because 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:38.840 very often we've had to make our own families. Anyway, 0:11:38.920 --> 0:11:41.440 we've we were shunned from our families. So we we 0:11:41.520 --> 0:11:43.040 have that and we're fine with that, and I think 0:11:43.120 --> 0:11:46.440 it's hopefully it will it will reach out to other 0:11:46.880 --> 0:11:49.720 families who are having you know, fertilization troubles or whatever 0:11:49.760 --> 0:11:54.160 that might be, that it's okay that there's there's no 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.920 shame in this. We're creating life and loving life. Now, 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:02.160 is there any additional mystery from a practical perspective where 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.800 you're just trying to explain, like your second two kids, 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.120 they have certain behaviors and you can't blame it on 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:13.120 Crosby exactly. That's funny. You have no idea thank you yet? 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:18.360 Um you know, I having four children that I know 0:12:18.440 --> 0:12:24.520 of is is the It really taught me that human 0:12:24.559 --> 0:12:29.400 beings come into this world with their own thing. You know, 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:33.600 I I My two sets are they're fully biologically related 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:37.360 to each other, and they couldn't. The four of them 0:12:37.400 --> 0:12:41.680 are so different. And you know, you you, you just you, 0:12:41.679 --> 0:12:44.480 you be a parent to that child, you know in 0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:46.719 the moment, and and they're each of them are going 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:51.719 to be very different. Thank you a beautiful moment there, Sarah. 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.600 There's a pursuit in your film. There's a hunt uh 0:12:56.200 --> 0:12:58.800 right that the hunt for? Is this my sister? When 0:12:58.800 --> 0:13:00.319 you when you find out this woman je enough for 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:04.240 who looks a bit like you, has a build similar 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:08.480 to yours, like you're you are using your observational powers 0:13:08.520 --> 0:13:11.480 to kind of hope for a genetic connection with this 0:13:11.520 --> 0:13:18.440 other person. And with so many new tools for genetic discovery, databases, 0:13:18.520 --> 0:13:22.880 social media, Google, how has the search for family changed 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:26.120 since the film? Has this film? I assume you made 0:13:26.120 --> 0:13:28.200 this over in a period of time and now we're 0:13:28.200 --> 0:13:30.920 in this moment in time. But what is what are people? 0:13:31.720 --> 0:13:34.480 Is there a protocol now? Is there a playlist? Is 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:36.920 there a playbook? I think it's I think it's in 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.640 motion right now. I think people are really developing it. 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:41.280 Um one of the things that I get asked a 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.800 lot as I take out the film and screen it 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:45.680 is like, what kind of letter did you write to 0:13:45.760 --> 0:13:49.800 your bio dat to say like, hello, it's me. Um, 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:52.440 how do you how do you construct something like that? Um? 0:13:52.480 --> 0:13:55.080 And one of the things that I frequently find myself 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.320 saying is that Number one, you have to like front 0:13:57.320 --> 0:14:00.040 load it with all your best characterists. You have to 0:14:03.160 --> 0:14:06.200 was I own a really cute dog, and um, you 0:14:06.200 --> 0:14:08.760 have to make yourself seem really likable and that you're 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.040 not looking for something. And then and and also it's 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:13.760 a very kind of hands off, like I would like 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:17.120 contact if you would like contact, and we can do 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:22.960 that in whatever way feels mutually. UM, like that will work. Um. 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:25.880 That being said, though, I think I would love to 0:14:25.880 --> 0:14:27.600 take this moment to say, if there are any sperm 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:30.600 donors out there or egg donors who are you know, 0:14:30.800 --> 0:14:35.040 approached by your offspring. Um, warmth and compassion goes a 0:14:35.040 --> 0:14:38.080 long way. Um. And I think it can be it 0:14:38.160 --> 0:14:41.120 can be really hard for offspring when they reach out 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:45.520 and they get a wall. UM. And and I I 0:14:45.600 --> 0:14:47.560 have a friend who reached out and she just got 0:14:47.560 --> 0:14:50.640 a letter from the lawyer. Right, So you can imagine 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.880 what that what might might feel like. And and that's 0:14:53.880 --> 0:14:58.640 sort of the both end of genetic genetic relationship and 0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:01.400 family relationship. As we can bring comback, we can bring 0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:04.840 our warmth and our compassion to all of those kinds 0:15:04.840 --> 0:15:08.560 of relationships to the degree that we can, I think, um, 0:15:08.600 --> 0:15:12.000 and that would be my encouragement for all the parties, 0:15:12.080 --> 0:15:14.360 and you know, for the parents, for the offspring, for 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.000 the the bio parents. Yeah, there's a level of you 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:22.440 want people to assume the best and to to resist 0:15:22.480 --> 0:15:25.480 the least, and and to be as compassionate as possible. 0:15:25.520 --> 0:15:28.520 You know, I had a it wasn't quite a genetic story, 0:15:28.560 --> 0:15:31.560 but I was reconnected with family that I had long 0:15:31.640 --> 0:15:34.120 been separated from through no choice of my own. And 0:15:34.120 --> 0:15:36.680 it was because of a message on social media. Someone 0:15:36.720 --> 0:15:39.400 popped up saying they were my cousin, and I was like, really, 0:15:39.760 --> 0:15:42.600 let's see, And then she had the receipts. They were photographs. 0:15:42.640 --> 0:15:44.800 It's like, oh my goodness. And it took me a 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.400 while to process it, and so I sat on it, 0:15:47.680 --> 0:15:49.640 you know, for months, because you're just living your life. 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.400 You're like liking your friends baby pictures and you're playing 0:15:52.440 --> 0:15:55.080 some stupid game, and you're yelling at the news on 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.840 your computer screen, and up pops some message saying you 0:15:57.920 --> 0:16:00.560 have a family you didn't know about that doesn't fit 0:16:00.600 --> 0:16:02.760 into the everyday flow of life. And so I just 0:16:02.760 --> 0:16:05.320 needed some time to sit with And I didn't mean 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.080 to disrespect, but I need to create that space so 0:16:08.120 --> 0:16:11.560 that I could respond with compassion and not defensiveness. And 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:12.920 we are able to get to a point where we 0:16:12.920 --> 0:16:15.600 have an open channel now and it's much more interesting 0:16:15.640 --> 0:16:19.360 and kind of lovely, but it's awkward on both sides. Yeah, 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:21.400 And I had a great friend who said to me, 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:23.160 as I was sort of embarking on this journey and 0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.160 had made contact with some biorelatives, she said, you know, 0:16:26.280 --> 0:16:30.360 you get to decide. There's no prescribed way that this 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.880 has to look, and you get to decide, in concert 0:16:33.960 --> 0:16:36.160 with the other people, how is this going to go? 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:39.560 And you're right, some some people need more time than others, 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:42.200 and you have I think you have to be respectful 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.600 of that, especially if you want the relationship to eventually develop. Right, 0:16:45.800 --> 0:16:48.280 do you find yourself in those in this community who 0:16:48.320 --> 0:16:50.560 have some gaps in their knowledge of the family tree? 0:16:50.640 --> 0:16:55.040 Just sizing up everybody trying to get spit from everybody. No, 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:57.960 it's interesting. Yeah. I mean I have seen like films 0:16:57.960 --> 0:17:01.560 where people there's one donor conceived coumentary um where the 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.680 girls like looking around going like is that my bio dad? 0:17:04.760 --> 0:17:07.880 Is that my biodat? I had it limited to all 0:17:08.000 --> 0:17:11.080 the um the medical students at the University of North 0:17:11.119 --> 0:17:14.400 Carolina for from like a little window. So I had 0:17:14.560 --> 0:17:17.960 I literally printed out all their class the yearbook photos. 0:17:18.080 --> 0:17:20.600 And I actually the very first thing I did after 0:17:20.640 --> 0:17:22.359 I found out that I was donor conceived, as I 0:17:22.400 --> 0:17:24.159 had a party and I put them all up on 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.080 the wall. I blew up all the pictures I had 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:31.439 red yarn connecting them. Well. Well, I had my friends 0:17:31.440 --> 0:17:33.719 come over and guess who it was. I put up 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:37.080 a picture of me, a picture of myself as a baby, 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:40.199 and I had them, you know, nominate who was the 0:17:40.240 --> 0:17:45.400 bio dad? Right? No one was writing new friends, all right, 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.359 but you can find some new friends with your DNA 0:17:47.440 --> 0:17:51.679 relative search. And I think about my other experience in 0:17:51.720 --> 0:17:54.520 this topic of family definitions. It only occurred to me, 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:56.760 in thinking about talking to the two of you, that 0:17:56.920 --> 0:17:58.840 I share a different part of this story, and that 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:02.439 the woman who was my sister is technically my half sister, 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.679 but I never called her that growing up. You know, 0:18:05.800 --> 0:18:08.119 I knew we had different dads. That wasn't withheld from us. 0:18:08.359 --> 0:18:10.800 But she was my sister and she's always has been 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.720 and always will be my sister. But scientifically we share 0:18:14.760 --> 0:18:19.760 like D n A and so that that language and 0:18:19.960 --> 0:18:22.840 how we define based on blood, as you talked about 0:18:22.880 --> 0:18:27.119 Melissa versus love is a spectrum. And in in the 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:30.600 film Sarah, you confronted in in a way your own father, 0:18:30.680 --> 0:18:33.280 the one the man who raised you, and asked him 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:38.000 to take a paternity test two just rule out for 0:18:38.080 --> 0:18:42.880 the final measure maybe you're my bio dad. And how 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:46.639 how did he respond to that and how did you 0:18:46.640 --> 0:18:48.960 know you You seemed torn about it in the film. 0:18:49.160 --> 0:18:53.000 I assume you really were, and tell us more about 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.480 what it's like to approach someone who is family based 0:18:56.520 --> 0:19:00.000 on love and experience, but you're also doing this side 0:19:00.000 --> 0:19:03.080 scientific inquir to technically define family and you kind of 0:19:03.080 --> 0:19:05.800 need them to go through a process. Well, I say 0:19:05.840 --> 0:19:07.720 in the film, and it's still the word that comes 0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:11.439 to mind. It just feels really rude. I mean, like 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.360 what a thing to ask your parents to take up tests. 0:19:15.760 --> 0:19:18.200 You know that I I felt I mean and rude. 0:19:18.200 --> 0:19:21.520 Probably if I dug underneath that there would be other words, 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.560 you know, like um, fear. You know, there would be 0:19:25.640 --> 0:19:28.480 other things there um And And for his part, I 0:19:28.520 --> 0:19:31.520 think he was incredibly generous to agree to do it. 0:19:32.040 --> 0:19:35.600 And I find myself reflecting on that as a real 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:40.560 moment of parenting. You know, where he was really willing 0:19:40.600 --> 0:19:42.600 to go with me on that journey, even if it 0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:45.960 wasn't a journey that he would necessarily have you chosen, 0:19:46.800 --> 0:19:50.000 but because he felt like I needed it, he was 0:19:50.040 --> 0:19:53.439 willing to go there, which is a very fatherly thing, 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.080 Which is a very fatherly thing to do right, And 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.119 I think, um, what's very interesting to me about this 0:20:00.200 --> 0:20:03.399 whole process is that we are closer now than we 0:20:03.400 --> 0:20:07.600 were before we started. That's great to hear because that 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.760 I think people listening wouldn't assume that you know, here 0:20:10.800 --> 0:20:13.880 you are looking for your bio dad, and how does 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.480 that make your actual dad you feel like and it's 0:20:17.480 --> 0:20:20.480 called a rift or something. So the fact that this 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:23.240 wasn't a split, it was actually that's what happens when 0:20:23.240 --> 0:20:26.120 you show up open hearted and honest and meet someone 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:28.840 else's being open hearted and honest. Right, you've you've come 0:20:28.880 --> 0:20:32.520 closer together. Yes, absolutely, I feel like we're gonna get 0:20:32.560 --> 0:20:39.360 so many good songs out of this. We've already touched 0:20:39.400 --> 0:20:41.679 on one of the main themes. I think it's actually 0:20:41.680 --> 0:20:45.560 not a segment of the interview with underlies the whole 0:20:46.200 --> 0:20:49.040 premise of this gathering, which is, you know, the definition 0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:53.680 of family and the definition of a relative. Now, Melissa, 0:20:53.760 --> 0:20:58.239 you've created this family, which in so many ways is 0:20:58.280 --> 0:21:01.440 a modern model of family. Right, you were raising two 0:21:01.440 --> 0:21:05.280 sets of children. You are in your second marriage, right, 0:21:05.800 --> 0:21:08.600 third marriage? Okay, the first one, it's hard to say 0:21:08.600 --> 0:21:10.720 because they didn't allow us to get married into. Actually 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:14.320 that's my first marriage, third long term relationship. The first 0:21:14.359 --> 0:21:16.800 two head children, so it's very common. Right, So, so 0:21:16.880 --> 0:21:22.360 you're in this You've created this family that is very 0:21:22.440 --> 0:21:25.119 different from the way we had been defining it. But 0:21:25.200 --> 0:21:28.840 I have the same problems that exactly. So let's talk 0:21:28.840 --> 0:21:31.800 about your family problems. Too much internet? You know, oh 0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:35.480 my god, where's the WiFi? So so what when you 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:40.639 are processing this idea of the genetic relationships and the 0:21:40.720 --> 0:21:45.600 genealogy and the love and the choices and the experiences, 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:51.439 how do you define family. You know what, Again, it 0:21:51.640 --> 0:21:57.960