1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,360 Speaker 1: Quality Dais, But Joseph's gotten more in my own arrogance. 2 00:00:07,440 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: I think I've seen a thing or two along the way. 3 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: But as soon as you do that in life's journey, 4 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: I believe life has a funny way of humbling you. 5 00:00:20,920 --> 00:00:23,000 Speaker 1: That's why I go back to the old adage, particularly 6 00:00:23,000 --> 00:00:25,640 Speaker 1: as it applies to forensic science. Anyone that says that 7 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: they have seen and done everything, or that they have 8 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: all of the answers, well they're lying, because you never 9 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:43,280 Speaker 1: see everything and you never have all of the answers. Recently, 10 00:00:43,600 --> 00:00:47,880 Speaker 1: I've returned from a trip to Europe, and as part 11 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:51,800 Speaker 1: of that trip, and as part of a fulfilling a 12 00:00:51,880 --> 00:00:56,360 Speaker 1: demand on the part of my wife, Kimmy, who said 13 00:00:56,360 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: that I need to do this, we visited the Catacomb Paris, 14 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:07,680 Speaker 1: and my lord, my lord, what an eye opener. I 15 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,120 Speaker 1: want to talk a little bit about that today and 16 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:12,240 Speaker 1: give you some of my thoughts and some of the 17 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: insights into what I saw, felt and even smelled in 18 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:29,680 Speaker 1: that environment. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybacks, Dave. 19 00:01:29,680 --> 00:01:31,680 Speaker 1: I've gotten to a point in my life now where 20 00:01:32,000 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: I am very keen to be careful where I step, 21 00:01:39,520 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: using handrails, and I hate handrails. I'm not a germophobe, 22 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,680 Speaker 1: but Kim is always, you know, getting after me about 23 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,840 Speaker 1: using handrails when of going down. And the only thing 24 00:01:48,960 --> 00:01:54,120 Speaker 1: I can think about touching handrails is the idea that 25 00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 1: somebody is out there that has not that's not as 26 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: hygienic as I would prefer for them to have been, 27 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 1: and they're kind of inoculating those surfaces with whatever it 28 00:02:05,160 --> 00:02:07,040 Speaker 1: is that they have. It's kind of like going to 29 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: a drive through again another disgusting, and somebody's got these 30 00:02:13,200 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: really long fingernails and they hand your food out to 31 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 1: you through the little window, and it's like, how exactly 32 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:26,000 Speaker 1: do you clean your hands and clean other parts of 33 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:28,160 Speaker 1: your body if you have these. So it's just one 34 00:02:28,160 --> 00:02:31,120 Speaker 1: of these things that kind of translates into my mind 35 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: because you know, I've seen the world microscopically. I think 36 00:02:36,680 --> 00:02:39,919 Speaker 1: it as a forensic scientist, and it just you know, 37 00:02:40,000 --> 00:02:41,639 Speaker 1: it's just those little things. But Dave, I got to 38 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:48,920 Speaker 1: tell you, this descent that we took, it was a 39 00:02:49,240 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: you enter on the street of this place and you 40 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,720 Speaker 1: have to go. It adds a whole another level of creepiness. 41 00:02:55,760 --> 00:02:59,520 Speaker 1: You descend down a spiral staircase that's cut into rock, 42 00:03:00,600 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: and it's ancient, and I don't remember how many steps 43 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 1: it was, but I think we descended roughly five to 44 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 1: six stories beneath the surface. 45 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 2: Okay, to be clear with everyone, we're actually talking about 46 00:03:17,440 --> 00:03:22,360 Speaker 2: the catacombs of France, right under Paris. Yeah, okay, so 47 00:03:23,240 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 2: under the city of Paris. They're for those of us 48 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,880 Speaker 2: who are not as worldly and educated as Joe and others. 49 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:36,920 Speaker 2: I pretty much get my history information from movies, you know, 50 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 2: and I'm thinking Indiana Jones, the one with his dad, 51 00:03:39,800 --> 00:03:42,680 Speaker 2: you know, Sean Connery and one by the way. 52 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,040 Speaker 1: Oh and. 53 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:51,960 Speaker 2: When you sent me information about these six million bones, 54 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: I thought it was you know, this is like out 55 00:03:54,760 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 2: of a movie. This is not something you would normally see. 56 00:03:56,960 --> 00:03:59,440 Speaker 2: But then you took it a step further. And so 57 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 2: today as we start talking about six million bones that 58 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:06,800 Speaker 2: are it's not a movie, it's not made up. It's 59 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,960 Speaker 2: an actual, real thing, and you actually went and saw 60 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 2: it up close and personal. All I can say is 61 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,080 Speaker 2: why who thought of this and thought it was a 62 00:04:16,080 --> 00:04:20,320 Speaker 2: good idea to take bones that we usually put in 63 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:23,279 Speaker 2: a cemetery or very reverent or they end up in 64 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 2: a you know, depending on who you are, a coffee 65 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,440 Speaker 2: can ab of the you know, fireplace, and how much 66 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:30,159 Speaker 2: you cared about the person. But you know what I mean, 67 00:04:30,760 --> 00:04:35,320 Speaker 2: we don't normally use bones of the dead as decorations. 68 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:39,239 Speaker 1: Yeah, and these are not okay, just so you understand. 69 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:44,440 Speaker 1: There are catacombs all over the world. There's a huge 70 00:04:44,440 --> 00:04:49,800 Speaker 1: concentration of them in Europe. There's one, I think I 71 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,240 Speaker 1: mentioned this to you. There's one famous one in Portugal 72 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 1: where there's actually a chapel that's made out of bones, 73 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:59,280 Speaker 1: where they have a huge high altar and a chandelier 74 00:04:59,320 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 1: and all these. 75 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:02,040 Speaker 2: Sorts of things all made from bones, all. 76 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,200 Speaker 1: Made from human bones. Yeah. And even you know, there 77 00:05:06,200 --> 00:05:09,440 Speaker 1: are cultures that have and I've actually seen these before, 78 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:14,680 Speaker 1: that make eating and drinking vessels out of human bones. 79 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,600 Speaker 1: I knew one of the forensic pathologists that I used 80 00:05:18,640 --> 00:05:23,360 Speaker 1: to work with had acquired a human skull that was 81 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: inlaid with sterling silver. And when you take the what 82 00:05:29,440 --> 00:05:32,440 Speaker 1: we call the calvarium, which is the skull cap itself, 83 00:05:33,720 --> 00:05:38,960 Speaker 1: take it off, the interior of the skull was plated 84 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,120 Speaker 1: in sterling silver so it could be drink from. Essentially, 85 00:05:43,560 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 1: there's other stories of people using human bones as cutlery 86 00:05:49,040 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 1: or I don't know if cutlery is the right word, 87 00:05:51,440 --> 00:05:55,400 Speaker 1: but using it as utensils for things. So, look, you 88 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: got to do what you got to do. But the 89 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:07,360 Speaker 1: practicality of the Paris Paris Catacombs, it's by the time 90 00:06:07,960 --> 00:06:13,800 Speaker 1: the catacombs were actually established, truly established, which was back 91 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundreds, it was a necessity because the 92 00:06:19,200 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 1: bodies in Paris. Paris had just exploded from a population standpoint, 93 00:06:24,680 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: and of course, as all cities do, you have a 94 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,479 Speaker 1: concentric area and then it kind of expands out. Well. Paris, 95 00:06:31,560 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: unlike other cities, they decided to bury their dead in 96 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: the center of the city. If you go back to 97 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:41,840 Speaker 1: like you look in the Middle East, many times they 98 00:06:41,839 --> 00:06:47,400 Speaker 1: would bury their dead outside the city walls. The occupants 99 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,120 Speaker 1: of France, because they weren't necessarily French at the time, 100 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:55,599 Speaker 1: began doing it within the walls. And the problem is 101 00:06:55,680 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 1: this Paris sits on limestone, and so the Romans, even 102 00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: when they arrived, they began to quarry limestone from beneath 103 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: what is now Paris, and over the years and the 104 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,520 Speaker 1: Parisians continued to do it. The French continue to do 105 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:14,960 Speaker 1: it because they're trying to create stone monuments. They're trying 106 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 1: to actually create buildings out of stone. You have access 107 00:07:17,600 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: to limestone, so as you imagine, if you take the 108 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: limestone away, guess what happens. It becomes markedly unstable. So 109 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:30,320 Speaker 1: you've got these collapses that are happening. There was a 110 00:07:30,320 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: cemetery in the center of town, and this is when 111 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:40,080 Speaker 1: King Louis the fifteenth was on throne. He's the son 112 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:45,800 Speaker 1: of the son King Louis the fourteenth who established Versai. 113 00:07:47,200 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: He was a bit more practical than his dad because 114 00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:54,080 Speaker 1: there was actually actually a house where people were living, 115 00:07:54,720 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 1: and the wall of the house collapsed and collapsed under 116 00:08:01,000 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: the weight of these burials that had taken place, these 117 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 1: kind of just subsurface burials, and the people have been 118 00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:10,160 Speaker 1: complaining about it for a while. And that the cemetery 119 00:08:10,240 --> 00:08:13,440 Speaker 1: was actually called the Innocence and it was consecrated ground, 120 00:08:13,840 --> 00:08:18,040 Speaker 1: it was on church property. And here's another thing. I 121 00:08:18,040 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 1: teach this in my Clandestine Graves class at jack State. 122 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: There's a difference between a graveyard and a cemetery, so 123 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 1: they're two completely different things. So a cemetery is I 124 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: think cemetery it comes from, if I'm not mistaken, the Greek, 125 00:08:35,880 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: and it means like it's a public place of burial. 126 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,400 Speaker 1: That's what it comes down to. If you hear the 127 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: term graveyard, graveyard is consecrated ground. It's like part of 128 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: the church. And still today, you know, you can ride 129 00:08:49,160 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 1: around the countryside here in Alabama where we live, and 130 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: you'll see there's one that kind of gives Kim and 131 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 1: I the creeps. A graveyard at the church goes all 132 00:08:59,240 --> 00:09:01,600 Speaker 1: the way up to the front steps of the church. 133 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,240 Speaker 1: And you're sitting there and you're thinking, oh, my lord. 134 00:09:04,280 --> 00:09:07,200 Speaker 1: So you're you're walking passes, and you know most of 135 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,719 Speaker 1: them are kind of to the side, but not in 136 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:12,520 Speaker 1: the case of this particular place. It goes right up 137 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: to the front steps of the church, so you're walking 138 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:18,040 Speaker 1: past the dead. It's something I think that we've always done. 139 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 1: I think church wanted to do it that way because 140 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,120 Speaker 1: in one sense, it's a reminder of how finite life is. 141 00:09:25,640 --> 00:09:27,800 Speaker 1: You know, you've got the spiritual life and you've got 142 00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:31,040 Speaker 1: the physical world that you live in. And and so anyway, 143 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: the bones. 144 00:09:32,600 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 2: Bones right up there to the entrance to a church, 145 00:09:35,240 --> 00:09:37,040 Speaker 2: right you're getting there and walk in there to hear 146 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:40,040 Speaker 2: how fire and damnation and here you go and then 147 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:41,560 Speaker 2: bones of the Dead right. 148 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: Here right, and so it's illustrative. It's really illustrative when 149 00:09:44,880 --> 00:09:47,319 Speaker 1: you walk out, it's kind of like you go into 150 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,640 Speaker 1: you know, people see like you walk into like we 151 00:09:50,720 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 1: went to Notre Dame while we were there to see 152 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 1: these beautiful stained glass windows, and they're in all churches 153 00:09:56,400 --> 00:09:58,440 Speaker 1: no matter where you go, it doesn't matter what denomination 154 00:09:58,520 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: it is. 155 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:02,559 Speaker 2: Did they shod where the fire took place in? 156 00:10:03,000 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, you could see it. They were still working 157 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,800 Speaker 1: on the outside place and it was it was packed 158 00:10:07,880 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: when we were there because it was it's one of 159 00:10:10,400 --> 00:10:13,640 Speaker 1: the really high holy days of the Catholic Church. It 160 00:10:13,720 --> 00:10:16,440 Speaker 1: was Ascension Day and it's the day that on the 161 00:10:16,480 --> 00:10:19,280 Speaker 1: calendar that's marked when when Christ descended. So there was 162 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: a huge line to get in and we didn't have 163 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:22,959 Speaker 1: any choice, you know, we had to go on that 164 00:10:23,040 --> 00:10:25,640 Speaker 1: day because we once see what it looked like. And 165 00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,120 Speaker 1: they still have cranes on the outside of it. There's 166 00:10:28,320 --> 00:10:33,200 Speaker 1: armed troops everywhere, you know, patrolling the area. You know, 167 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:36,280 Speaker 1: it's I'm not going to say, you know tensions were high, 168 00:10:36,320 --> 00:10:38,760 Speaker 1: but yeah, you kind of got that feeling because it's 169 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: a high holy day, so you're thinking, hmm, you know, 170 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,439 Speaker 1: if somebody's going to do something, it could be today. Anyway, 171 00:10:44,679 --> 00:10:46,920 Speaker 1: we came in without, without a scratch on us. 172 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,679 Speaker 2: When you're meeting in the thieves den talking about ways 173 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 2: to terrorize the world. Okay, do you really want to 174 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:54,120 Speaker 2: go after a church? 175 00:10:54,520 --> 00:10:57,160 Speaker 1: Yeah? I know, I know. It's yeah, you know. 176 00:10:57,120 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: What, Being on the bus to Hell is not enough. 177 00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:01,520 Speaker 2: I want to be on the Can you put me 178 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 2: between Charlie Mansin and Oj Simpson. I just want to 179 00:11:04,280 --> 00:11:06,720 Speaker 2: sit right there between those two guys, right in front 180 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,960 Speaker 2: of Ted Bundy kind Scott Peterson, if you'll just put 181 00:11:09,960 --> 00:11:10,199 Speaker 2: me there. 182 00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,120 Speaker 1: What do I have to do? Oh? 183 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:12,560 Speaker 2: Burn Notre Dame. 184 00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:16,640 Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, yeah, and you get that. But listen, it 185 00:11:16,720 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: was one of the most peaceful, beautiful places that I've 186 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: been in in some time. My mother is an organist, 187 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 1: taught piano for I don't know, probably forty years and 188 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:30,959 Speaker 1: played organ and we got to hear that beautiful I'm 189 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: sorry what you say I can play a church organ? Well, 190 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:38,000 Speaker 1: I know that you can. And it's when you see 191 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 1: those huge pipes and you feel that, you know, kind 192 00:11:40,200 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: of resonate through your skull. It rattles everything. But back 193 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: to the idea of a graveyard being adjacent to a church, 194 00:11:49,000 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: and I was talking about stained glass windows. You know, 195 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,720 Speaker 1: if you look at at the purpose of stained glass windows, 196 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:58,200 Speaker 1: most of them were created to tell Bible stories. You 197 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: look at them and they're fascinating from that perspective. And 198 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 1: you know, the flood, Crucifixion, I mean, anything you want. 199 00:12:05,600 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 1: You want to talk about, the prodigal Sun, which is 200 00:12:07,960 --> 00:12:12,680 Speaker 1: probably my favorite story in all of the Bible. And 201 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:14,719 Speaker 1: then you have the graveyard when you walk out of 202 00:12:14,760 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 1: the church, and it's kind of like, here's the exclamation point, 203 00:12:17,480 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: all right, this is the point to all of this. 204 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 1: And back during the seventeen hundreds, they began to have 205 00:12:24,000 --> 00:12:28,000 Speaker 1: these major problems in Paris because the bones had been 206 00:12:28,040 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 1: stacking up and they were like popping up out of 207 00:12:30,480 --> 00:12:33,040 Speaker 1: the ground. You know, you'd be walking along with your kids. 208 00:12:33,080 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: Can you imagine you're going to go to the local 209 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:38,120 Speaker 1: baker or the fruit stand or whatever, and there's human 210 00:12:38,200 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 1: remains just lying about. And of course back then they 211 00:12:40,800 --> 00:12:43,920 Speaker 1: still have the specter of the plague that's hanging around. 212 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 1: You've got fetid water that's everywhere, human waste, animal waste, 213 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:53,080 Speaker 1: and King Louis the fifteenth, the son of the son king, 214 00:12:53,520 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: said okay, all right, this is enough. We're not going 215 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,720 Speaker 1: to do this anymore. The people are rising up, they're 216 00:12:59,720 --> 00:13:02,640 Speaker 1: coming about this. This is a problem and we should 217 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,319 Speaker 1: be better than this. And they had had kind of 218 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 1: an epiphantal moment I think, during that period of time 219 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:11,840 Speaker 1: about the health standards. Even though they wouldn't be the 220 00:13:11,840 --> 00:13:14,079 Speaker 1: standers would not be healthy by our standers today, they 221 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: had come a long way. And so he said, we're 222 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,680 Speaker 1: going to start taking all of these remains, Dave, and 223 00:13:20,800 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: take them subterranean. We've got all of these kind of 224 00:13:24,920 --> 00:13:28,319 Speaker 1: shafts that are beneath the surface, and we're gonna start 225 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: putting them down there. And good lord, what an accumulation, 226 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 1: because I got to tell you, brother Dave, I saw 227 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,040 Speaker 1: things down there I never would have imagined in my 228 00:13:40,120 --> 00:13:59,920 Speaker 1: wildest dreams. We make it into the catacombs and we're 229 00:14:00,080 --> 00:14:02,960 Speaker 1: you're not when you first enter the place. It's not 230 00:14:03,040 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: like you're going directly into the oshuary and oshwary is 231 00:14:07,559 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 1: kind of this fancy schmancy term for uh where bones 232 00:14:12,360 --> 00:14:19,920 Speaker 1: are collected. You walk through these tunnels and the tunnels 233 00:14:20,680 --> 00:14:25,320 Speaker 1: actually marry up with the streets above them, so you'll 234 00:14:25,360 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: have like these stone markers in the wall that'll say 235 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: you're on Rue. You know, you're beneath Rue, I don't 236 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 1: know what whatever, you know, Rue Charles, that's directly above 237 00:14:35,560 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: your head. And you have to take these twists and turns. 238 00:14:37,760 --> 00:14:39,680 Speaker 1: And you know, my son Noah was, you know, he 239 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: was with us, and he's a geographer, you know, that's 240 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,360 Speaker 1: what he's got his degree in GIS. And he was 241 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 1: he was kind of, you know, leading us through this 242 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 1: area and he was talking about these kind of you 243 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:54,640 Speaker 1: know how this would have had to have been plotted. 244 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:57,880 Speaker 1: For instance, if you're you know, you're running underneath ground 245 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: and it there were various areas where there had been 246 00:15:01,760 --> 00:15:04,960 Speaker 1: collapses over a period of time. Those were marked on 247 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 1: the walls. And it takes you some time to actually 248 00:15:08,960 --> 00:15:12,080 Speaker 1: make it through the twist and turns the little avenues 249 00:15:12,120 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: down there before you actually get to the spot where 250 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: there is this day, I can't tell you. It probably 251 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: weighs I don't know. I'd have to say the thing 252 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:27,560 Speaker 1: weighs at least a ton, and it's a mantle over 253 00:15:28,960 --> 00:15:31,680 Speaker 1: this opening and the door is kind of square, okay, 254 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: and it's made out of stone and inscribed, inscribed, you 255 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: know above above your head is a saying that actually 256 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:49,120 Speaker 1: that you know where you're about to step into the 257 00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: area where the bones are. And I'm not going to 258 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:55,360 Speaker 1: make any attempt to pronounce it in French, but it 259 00:15:55,440 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 1: roughly translates into stop, this is the Empire of the dead. 260 00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,120 Speaker 1: And it's you know, again going back to the idea 261 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: that this is serious business, that they wanted everyone to understand, 262 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:21,200 Speaker 1: the let's see the nature of the environment they were 263 00:16:21,200 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: about to inhabit, that this is not something to be 264 00:16:23,720 --> 00:16:29,360 Speaker 1: taken lightly, that it's a place of respect, that it's 265 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: a place that I think is maybe put up, you know, 266 00:16:34,120 --> 00:16:38,480 Speaker 1: as a monument to human frailty, because you know all 267 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:40,960 Speaker 1: of these people. When you begin to kind of march 268 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: down this little walkway and you're getting into the primary osuary, 269 00:16:46,680 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: the first thing you see are just like a couple 270 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: of skulls, right and they're stacked. That's what I remember 271 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: the most. 272 00:16:55,440 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 2: I'm trying to Okay, where do you enter? I mean, 273 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:00,480 Speaker 2: is there like a neon sign, is a line up 274 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 2: here and go down? 275 00:17:01,440 --> 00:17:05,680 Speaker 1: Or I mean there's yet so above ground there's there's 276 00:17:05,720 --> 00:17:07,480 Speaker 1: actually a place where you go in. You have to 277 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,600 Speaker 1: Kimmy had bought us tickets way in advance. We were 278 00:17:10,600 --> 00:17:14,000 Speaker 1: in the last group of the day and there were 279 00:17:14,200 --> 00:17:16,959 Speaker 1: like eighty. The que was like a queue is a 280 00:17:17,000 --> 00:17:19,800 Speaker 1: line over there. So the queue was like for two hundred. 281 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,280 Speaker 1: There were only eighty of us, and we were literally 282 00:17:22,280 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: at the tail end. So we did that on purpose 283 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:28,960 Speaker 1: so we could take our time. Let me tell you something, brother, 284 00:17:29,080 --> 00:17:33,639 Speaker 1: if if it was not for if it was not 285 00:17:33,880 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: for the lights that the government had installed down there, 286 00:17:41,880 --> 00:17:44,359 Speaker 1: you you could not see your hand in front of 287 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:48,360 Speaker 1: your face. And what's kind of fascinating is that there 288 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: was actually a story of this one. He's kind of 289 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,399 Speaker 1: like a caretaker that was down there. In the seventeen hundreds, 290 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:58,439 Speaker 1: there's only been one death that has occurred in the catacombs, 291 00:17:58,440 --> 00:18:00,560 Speaker 1: and it's this one guy. And let me tell I said, 292 00:18:00,600 --> 00:18:05,119 Speaker 1: this is one guy who had died down in that area, 293 00:18:05,200 --> 00:18:07,439 Speaker 1: and he had a torch of some kind, you know, 294 00:18:07,520 --> 00:18:12,960 Speaker 1: some kind of lantern. Lantern goes out and he's fumbled 295 00:18:12,960 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 1: around in the darkness for maybe days trying to find 296 00:18:16,800 --> 00:18:21,359 Speaker 1: his way out, and his body, his decomposed body, which 297 00:18:21,440 --> 00:18:23,719 Speaker 1: they the only way they could identify him. He had 298 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: a specific marker, like a tag on what was left 299 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:31,440 Speaker 1: of his clothing. He was ten feet away from the staircase. Yeah, 300 00:18:31,480 --> 00:18:34,240 Speaker 1: and he just he collapsed right there and died, died 301 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,520 Speaker 1: of starvation. There's no there's no outside light. And I've heard, 302 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 1: you know, I've talked to friends of mine over the 303 00:18:40,640 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 1: years that have worked in minds and those sorts of 304 00:18:42,760 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: things which I could I could never do, I'd lose 305 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:51,440 Speaker 1: my mind. And they've talked about, you know, total darkness, 306 00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:55,120 Speaker 1: and can you imagine you're walking along and you've got 307 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: bones that are stacked to the ceiling. You're feeling your 308 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:05,119 Speaker 1: way along the walls, and you keep touching these things 309 00:19:05,160 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: along the walls that the wall literally undulates, you know, 310 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,439 Speaker 1: with you know that kind of curved, curved feeling of 311 00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 1: a skull. Or maybe you've got long bones where you're 312 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:21,000 Speaker 1: actually running your hands along the terminal ends of say 313 00:19:21,000 --> 00:19:25,159 Speaker 1: a femur, because all of these bones are stacked according 314 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:28,000 Speaker 1: to their anatomical orientation. 315 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:34,880 Speaker 2: They're not stacked as one body after another, just skeleton skeleton, skeleton. 316 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: They're actually okay, we need all of the femurs right here, 317 00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,679 Speaker 2: all of the skulls right here, all the fingers. 318 00:19:43,280 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, and the lesser. Let me just kind of break 319 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 1: this down for you. I'm so excited to talk about this. 320 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:53,960 Speaker 1: I'm kind of disordered today. But it varied depended upon 321 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: the age in time, because they started doing this back 322 00:19:57,600 --> 00:19:59,760 Speaker 1: in the seventeen hundred stay it went all the way 323 00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: up through the end of the eighteen hundreds, where they're 324 00:20:03,040 --> 00:20:07,960 Speaker 1: still stacking bones in this place. So depended upon you 325 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,439 Speaker 1: would have like stacks of skulls that would be like 326 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:15,440 Speaker 1: the foundation. And these these areas where these entumbements are, 327 00:20:16,400 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: they're like carved out spaces in these limestone walls where 328 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:22,639 Speaker 1: mining had taken place previously, you know, where they're like 329 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,400 Speaker 1: knocking out chunks of limestone. They're bringing out big blocks 330 00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:28,479 Speaker 1: of it. And again, like I said, the Romans were 331 00:20:28,520 --> 00:20:30,720 Speaker 1: the first people to do this. So this is how 332 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:36,359 Speaker 1: old these you know, these this place is. And the 333 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:38,680 Speaker 1: Romans began to take these blocks out. And as time 334 00:20:38,720 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: went by and other you know, and other civilizations rose, 335 00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:45,600 Speaker 1: they saw the utility in here. But they would they 336 00:20:45,600 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 1: would knock out these huge spaces in the wall. And 337 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:55,159 Speaker 1: what King Louis the fifteenth people started to do they 338 00:20:55,200 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: would utilize these areas, these kind of carved out areas 339 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:03,400 Speaker 1: in the stone and make the bones fit. Now, there 340 00:21:03,480 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: is no effort, and let me tell you this, there 341 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:10,560 Speaker 1: is no effort I don't think, at least in our 342 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: modern sensibilities to try to keep bodies intact relative to 343 00:21:17,280 --> 00:21:21,919 Speaker 1: their individual identity. All you have are human remains. And 344 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:25,399 Speaker 1: I saw, you know, female skulls, I saw male skulls. 345 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:29,560 Speaker 1: I saw the skulls of children, and you can you know, 346 00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: there's certain things that you look for in forensic anthropology, 347 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: where you know, we do things based upon the size 348 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 1: of the skull. Male skulls will be kind of robust, 349 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,640 Speaker 1: female skulls will be grassisle and fine. We've actually talked 350 00:21:42,640 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 1: about that term before on body bags. And then you have, 351 00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:48,920 Speaker 1: you know, of course, the more diminutive skulls of children, 352 00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 1: and they're harder to sex. You can't tell, you know, 353 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,040 Speaker 1: male from female many times, and so they create these 354 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:57,800 Speaker 1: foundations and it's kind of stratified, like you might have 355 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: five rows of skulls. Then you're going to get to 356 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: the femurs, which are very robust. They're the largest long 357 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: bone in the body. It's your you know where you're 358 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:12,880 Speaker 1: from your hip to your knee, and those are stacked 359 00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: like cordwood, and you're looking down the long axis of 360 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: these bones and they form another layer. Then you'll go 361 00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 1: to like tip FIBs, which are the smaller bones and 362 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,720 Speaker 1: the lower leg. Then you'll have the humorous h You'll 363 00:22:28,760 --> 00:22:33,080 Speaker 1: have them stacked on top of that with you know, 364 00:22:33,160 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: the smaller bones of the arm, and then everything else 365 00:22:35,640 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: like the odd bones. This is what was really weird, 366 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:44,200 Speaker 1: the odd shaped bones like ribs, anything from the feet, 367 00:22:45,359 --> 00:22:48,199 Speaker 1: the hands. They're kind of tucked on top of everything. 368 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:51,639 Speaker 1: So you have this big pile of commingled remains on 369 00:22:51,760 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: top of them, and they can be from any number 370 00:22:55,040 --> 00:23:00,359 Speaker 1: of bodies that are there. And it was the only 371 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 1: marker that you have is every now and then you 372 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,280 Speaker 1: will see a stone marker that has been chiseled in 373 00:23:05,320 --> 00:23:08,480 Speaker 1: and stuck, and it's like, okay, these remains came from 374 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 1: this particular parish church and that's really all you'll see. 375 00:23:12,880 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 1: But you're not going to say, you know, here lost fred. Okay, 376 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:17,960 Speaker 1: it's not set up that way. 377 00:23:21,000 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 2: Okay, So when they're doing all of this, it's because 378 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:28,240 Speaker 2: I mean, it actually started because they had a problem 379 00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,920 Speaker 2: to solve, yes, and did it. Do you think when 380 00:23:32,920 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: they first started putting the bones in there that in 381 00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,560 Speaker 2: the back of their head, hey man, we're going to 382 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:41,320 Speaker 2: open this up to the public so people can come 383 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 2: down here in tour and see if they can find 384 00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: Uncle Fred and they'll come through. And I mean, I 385 00:23:46,320 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: cannot imagine that this long play here was about selling 386 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:52,159 Speaker 2: tickets for people to wait in line, no, you know, 387 00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 2: to go see. 388 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:57,439 Speaker 1: But did they have tours? Know, they didn't. As a 389 00:23:57,440 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: matter of fact, at the very end of it was 390 00:24:01,760 --> 00:24:05,560 Speaker 1: monitored very closely. You have to understand it, like when 391 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:10,080 Speaker 1: they would do internments, priests would go down and bless 392 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,920 Speaker 1: this area and it was consecrated at that point time 393 00:24:13,000 --> 00:24:17,439 Speaker 1: it was held and it was very reverential, so famously 394 00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 1: And okay, I gotta see this. Going back to my 395 00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:24,439 Speaker 1: son he was talking about, Dad, you realize we're only 396 00:24:24,480 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: going to see like just under a mile of this, right, 397 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,320 Speaker 1: he said, these catacombs go on for like two hundred 398 00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: miles all under Paris, this network. And look, there's not 399 00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:36,320 Speaker 1: bones in the whole area, but there's these you know, 400 00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:38,920 Speaker 1: these tunnels that run all over the place, and a 401 00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:41,919 Speaker 1: lot of nefarious stuff has gone on in the other areas. 402 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: You know, you've got graffiti, You've got actually people subterranean 403 00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:49,440 Speaker 1: dwellers that will go down there and live in that space. Yeah, 404 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:53,760 Speaker 1: and during World War Two, the French resistance, this is 405 00:24:53,840 --> 00:24:57,119 Speaker 1: how extensive it is. The French Resistance actually had they 406 00:24:57,160 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: were headquartered in one space down there, and and you 407 00:25:00,880 --> 00:25:04,080 Speaker 1: had the Nazis that were headquartered in one space down 408 00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: there as they occupied Paris, which blew my mind. That's 409 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:11,080 Speaker 1: how that's how intricate all of the stuff is. And 410 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:14,160 Speaker 1: if you don't know where you're going, man, it's you're 411 00:25:14,240 --> 00:25:15,879 Speaker 1: you're a lost cause if you don't have a light 412 00:25:15,960 --> 00:25:17,680 Speaker 1: and I would think that even if you do have 413 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: a light source, it would be very difficult to kind 414 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: of make your way through through this area without knowing 415 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: where do I turn next. But the mazes is remarkable. 416 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 1: You know, this underground you see when you go down there, 417 00:25:37,040 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: it's very it should be treated very reverentially, you know, 418 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 1: because this is a place of the dead. And there's 419 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 1: a warning that you're given. They didn't put that sign 420 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,280 Speaker 1: up there for for no reason, and it says you're 421 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 1: entering the realm of the dead. Now, you know, you 422 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:56,919 Speaker 1: go into this place, and what was kind of amazing 423 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: to me is that there was no barrier between my 424 00:26:02,240 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: hands and the bones, the skeletal remains. I could reach 425 00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 1: out and touch anything that's in there. And I have 426 00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:11,680 Speaker 1: to tell you, you know, there were a few few 427 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: spots along the way where I saw like cigarette butts 428 00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:17,040 Speaker 1: that have been thumped in there. I saw candy wrappers, 429 00:26:17,200 --> 00:26:19,160 Speaker 1: you know, the people had put in. I didn't see 430 00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,159 Speaker 1: any writing that was on anything, but you know, I 431 00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:28,760 Speaker 1: I did what did I do? I remember distinctly because me, 432 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,440 Speaker 1: I'm a tactile person. I want to touch things. That's 433 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: kind of the investigator in me. I purposed to either 434 00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: keep my hands in my pockets or hold my hands 435 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:40,480 Speaker 1: behind my back and just lean in and try to look. 436 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,280 Speaker 1: And of course I took photos just to make sure 437 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,800 Speaker 1: that I didn't reach out and actually touch anything that 438 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:53,480 Speaker 1: was in there, because you know, that scientific being within me, 439 00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,640 Speaker 1: you know, wants to. I want to. I want to see, 440 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,520 Speaker 1: you know what the texture of it's like, you know, 441 00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: kind of kind of how it sits. I'm just amazed 442 00:27:01,840 --> 00:27:03,880 Speaker 1: that still to this day you can walk down there 443 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 1: and there's not like a plexiglass wall. It's like if 444 00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:10,639 Speaker 1: you go to the go to the alleged side of 445 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: where Lee Harvey Oswell fired that weapon and the school 446 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,760 Speaker 1: book depository. You can see what they call the sniper's nest, 447 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: but there is plexiglass in between you and that area. 448 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 1: You're not going to get in there. These go back 449 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:29,040 Speaker 1: hundreds of years and in one estimation they believe that 450 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:34,240 Speaker 1: these probably have been buried in for at least a 451 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: thousand years. So, you know me, Dave, my thing was, 452 00:27:54,400 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: I knew that there were two people of in my 453 00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 1: American mind that I knew that were famous that were 454 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: buried down there, and they were both part of the 455 00:28:05,920 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 1: Reign of Terror during the French Revolution. These were like 456 00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 1: some of the leaders Robespierre, who was one of the 457 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: big philosophers during the time of the Reign of Terror, 458 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:21,680 Speaker 1: and as a matter of fact, he got so out 459 00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 1: of sorts with this, you know, this congress that they 460 00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:30,920 Speaker 1: had that they wound up sticking him on the guillotine 461 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 1: and lopping his head off. Well, he's buried down there, 462 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:37,399 Speaker 1: and of course, you know me, I'm thinking, hmm, I 463 00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,080 Speaker 1: wonder where his body is. I want to see if 464 00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:41,560 Speaker 1: I want to see if there's any evidence on the 465 00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 1: base of the skull, and of course you can't find it. 466 00:28:44,800 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 1: And then there's Marat, who there's a famous portrait if 467 00:28:48,880 --> 00:28:51,560 Speaker 1: any of you guys have ever seen it, that he's 468 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,360 Speaker 1: a famous French philosopher during this period of time, and 469 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: he had a horrible skin disorder and he would sit 470 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,680 Speaker 1: in his bathtub all the time. He had a writing 471 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:05,760 Speaker 1: a writing board that was placed across the bathroom, and 472 00:29:05,800 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: it's a famous portrait of him laying in there with 473 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: his arm extended out, and he's dead in that image. 474 00:29:10,720 --> 00:29:13,760 Speaker 1: And what had happened. There was a young girl that 475 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:18,560 Speaker 1: had come in to bring information to him, kind of 476 00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:22,959 Speaker 1: like a spy network thing, and she talks to him 477 00:29:23,000 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: about fifteen minutes. Murrat's wife had let him in to 478 00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: let her into this area, and at the end she 479 00:29:30,960 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: reaches into her boussier and pulls out a dagger and 480 00:29:37,680 --> 00:29:40,880 Speaker 1: drives it into his a order and kills him right there. 481 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,120 Speaker 1: So you know, for me, I think that one of 482 00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: the things I was looking at was not so much 483 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 1: the morphology of the skulls and the bones himself. I'm 484 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,239 Speaker 1: trying to spot any kind of trauma that I can 485 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: down there to say, you know, because you've got you've 486 00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,960 Speaker 1: got things that have happened that people die, you'll have 487 00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:05,800 Speaker 1: grave collapses and that damage of skeletons. But you know, 488 00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,640 Speaker 1: I'm kind of, you know, looking and I don't have 489 00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,760 Speaker 1: enough time. That's the downside of it. I'm going through 490 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: there and I'm looking in to see if I see 491 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: any kind of trauma all day, all. 492 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,960 Speaker 2: Right, But what can you see? Because I'm going to 493 00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:24,120 Speaker 2: assume that the area that's open for the public to 494 00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 2: go look in is a lot different than the area 495 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,960 Speaker 2: that they would keep you out of. Like there is 496 00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:36,160 Speaker 2: nearly two hundred miles of tunnels and you're only allowed 497 00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 2: to see a very very small portion of that. So 498 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:45,320 Speaker 2: I guess I thought that bones would have that they 499 00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,240 Speaker 2: would have disintegrated by now. I mean, just is it 500 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:51,440 Speaker 2: because they're very so deep. I mean we are talking 501 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: what two hundred feet below? 502 00:30:53,680 --> 00:30:56,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, I would, Yeah, it would, I don't know take 503 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 1: what yeah, give or take. And of course the elevation 504 00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:01,920 Speaker 1: is going to vary, the depths will bury because the 505 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: ground actually undulates. You can feel yourself walking downward, and 506 00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:09,240 Speaker 1: you can feel yourself kind of egressing upward at any 507 00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: number of times. And that was what I was thinking too. 508 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:14,440 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, Holy smokes, what do they have to sing 509 00:31:14,560 --> 00:31:17,080 Speaker 1: reinforced with right? You know, because I can tell you 510 00:31:17,160 --> 00:31:19,680 Speaker 1: if there's like a weight collapse in their bones, are 511 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:21,320 Speaker 1: not going to provide any kind I mean, it'll just 512 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: turn them to dust at that point of time. But 513 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:28,680 Speaker 1: and like you, I was amazed at the resiliency of 514 00:31:28,760 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 1: the moon. And of course here's another thing. In some 515 00:31:32,840 --> 00:31:37,800 Speaker 1: instances I saw teeth, and the teeth are just beautiful, 516 00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:41,480 Speaker 1: pearly white. You know, teeth are so resilient, you know, 517 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,000 Speaker 1: compared to skeletal remain you know, they'll hang around for 518 00:31:45,080 --> 00:31:49,720 Speaker 1: a long long time, whereas you know, but you know 519 00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:52,560 Speaker 1: where what I guess in some instant, well, there's one 520 00:31:52,640 --> 00:31:55,400 Speaker 1: area that claimed that barrels have been taken place in 521 00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 1: perhaps for a thousand years, and that actually kind of 522 00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:02,760 Speaker 1: pre dates the French as we know them. It's like 523 00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:07,160 Speaker 1: during the Frankish Kingdom. But you know, to say that 524 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: that those bones are there among that, I can't imagine, 525 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:17,120 Speaker 1: because this looks like the repatriation area. Like when when 526 00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:21,440 Speaker 1: the church's graveyards, not cemeteries, but graveyards began to collapse, 527 00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:26,720 Speaker 1: they felt that we wanted to keep all of the individuals. 528 00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: Just imagine if you you know, you've got the First 529 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:37,040 Speaker 1: Methodist Church and Calvary Baptist Church and Saint Luke Lutheran Church. 530 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: You've got they have a designated area where they would 531 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 1: evacuate their dead to or remove the bodies to in 532 00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:49,360 Speaker 1: those cases. Actually, yeah, yeah, it kind of does. And 533 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: so anything that would have happened before then is not 534 00:32:52,440 --> 00:32:54,520 Speaker 1: necessarily in an area you're going to have access to. 535 00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: And it's dangerous, man, I mean you, let's face it. 536 00:32:58,600 --> 00:33:00,600 Speaker 1: You know, if you have some kids that gets down 537 00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: in these areas, it you know, tragedy is going to ensue. 538 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:09,080 Speaker 1: And there's always there are always those curiosity seekers you know, 539 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:13,800 Speaker 1: that are down there that you're thinking, well what can 540 00:33:13,880 --> 00:33:15,880 Speaker 1: I find? You know, if I'm down here, can I 541 00:33:15,920 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: steal something and take it away? Or am I going 542 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: to commune with the other world while I'm down here? Uh? 543 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 1: And so you've got all of all of these kinds 544 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:27,320 Speaker 1: of things that are going on. Or maybe somebody's playing 545 00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: a prank on somebody and they just walk somebody down 546 00:33:29,800 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: there and abandon them down there. Can you mention how 547 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,200 Speaker 1: horrible that would be? Well, yeah, you were. 548 00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,120 Speaker 2: Talking about the guy that was found near the stairs. 549 00:33:37,240 --> 00:33:42,120 Speaker 2: Right back in the day we have caverns. There's this 550 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:45,880 Speaker 2: cavern in Alabama. It was called Desetto Caverns, and it 551 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 2: was used for a long time for different things and 552 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:56,000 Speaker 2: they've renamed it now. But there's a part of when 553 00:33:56,040 --> 00:33:58,880 Speaker 2: you go on the tour where they actually cut the lighting, 554 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: you know, the artificial lights, and you're actually inside the 555 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:06,320 Speaker 2: cave and it is complete darkness where you're sitting there 556 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 2: and you cannot see your hand directly in front of 557 00:34:10,400 --> 00:34:12,560 Speaker 2: your face, you know, right there, you're touching your nose. 558 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,560 Speaker 2: You can't see it. It's that dark. And that's what 559 00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 2: I'm thinking. It's one thing to be confused as to 560 00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,200 Speaker 2: where you are because everything looks the same. It's bones, bones, 561 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:27,240 Speaker 2: and more bones, but another to add in the idea 562 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: of darkness and that you cannot find your way. You 563 00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 2: can't get acclimated of this. You're not seeing anything, and 564 00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:38,319 Speaker 2: even with your eyes open and artificial lighting, you can 565 00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: be lost. I just can't imagine the sick feeling this 566 00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 2: would be to an individual. 567 00:34:44,880 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: You know, Yeah, there's no way you can bathe it 568 00:34:47,640 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: with artificial lighting, you know where because even these and 569 00:34:52,800 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: again they do it for atmosphere. They've got these kind 570 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:57,960 Speaker 1: of amber amber looking lights that are down there, and 571 00:34:58,000 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 1: I think part of it has to do with Preserva 572 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,640 Speaker 1: the bone. I think that and someone smarter than I 573 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: could come up with this. But you don't want like 574 00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:08,439 Speaker 1: harsh intense light on these things for any period of time. 575 00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:12,040 Speaker 1: And even those but even those little amber lights, you 576 00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,040 Speaker 1: can't see to the rear all the way to the 577 00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:18,320 Speaker 1: rear of these oshwaries that are these individual ashwaries that 578 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:21,320 Speaker 1: are there. I did come across something kind of interesting 579 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:23,000 Speaker 1: while I was down there, though. There was a and 580 00:35:23,080 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: I think that they had probably done this on purpose. 581 00:35:26,000 --> 00:35:29,279 Speaker 1: There was actually a skull that I found that I 582 00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:33,000 Speaker 1: observed and I was just walking by it and I 583 00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:37,720 Speaker 1: noticed something. Because it's supposed it's the skull is turned 584 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,359 Speaker 1: so that you have the posterior review. You can't see 585 00:35:40,400 --> 00:35:42,759 Speaker 1: the face at all. There's no way. I tried to 586 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: get an angle on it so that I could try 587 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: to see the orbits, the eye sockets all that I 588 00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:49,960 Speaker 1: couldn't There's no way I could do it. But I 589 00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:55,320 Speaker 1: could fully appreciate, like the left parietal, which is the 590 00:35:55,560 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: large bony complex behind your ear and up and the 591 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,840 Speaker 1: right prodetal and then the occipital, which is where the 592 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, your big occiput or the big knot on 593 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 1: the back of your head is. And Dave, on the 594 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: left side of this thing, there is a defect that 595 00:36:13,800 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: measured probably let's see, probably in the horizontal plane it 596 00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:23,840 Speaker 1: was about maybe three inches wide, and in the vertical 597 00:36:23,960 --> 00:36:28,319 Speaker 1: plane it may have been about four. And Dude, I'm 598 00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: looking at this thing, and I'm thinking, is this as 599 00:36:30,719 --> 00:36:34,680 Speaker 1: a result of the of the skull like falling apart? 600 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: Is it you know, some kind of grave trauma, you know, 601 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:44,120 Speaker 1: where something has like collapsed on it. It wasn't. It wasn't. 602 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 1: This looked to me, all right, as if this was 603 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: the result of an exit one from a gunfire. And 604 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:53,960 Speaker 1: I'm sitting I'm staring at this, and I'm thinking, I 605 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:55,879 Speaker 1: can't believe I'm seeing this. And one of the ways 606 00:36:55,920 --> 00:36:59,560 Speaker 1: that on bone in particular, if you're trying to assess 607 00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:06,279 Speaker 1: like firem's trauma to a human skull, is that you'll 608 00:37:06,360 --> 00:37:10,520 Speaker 1: have what's referred to with the exit wound, You'll have 609 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 1: what's referred to as external beveling, which means that as 610 00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:18,120 Speaker 1: a bullet let's, say, a bullet comes in through somebody's 611 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: forehead and a bullet is exiting out that bone is 612 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,880 Speaker 1: blown out, okay, And as it is blown out, it 613 00:37:25,080 --> 00:37:31,399 Speaker 1: leaves an appreciable curved area that is referred to as 614 00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,960 Speaker 1: external beveling, which gives you direction of the projectile that's 615 00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:39,319 Speaker 1: passing through the head. If it was internal beveling, that's 616 00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: the entrance. So you wouldn't see the beveled area because 617 00:37:42,719 --> 00:37:44,840 Speaker 1: it's inside the skull. This is outside of the skull. 618 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:47,640 Speaker 1: The only thing that can generate that is some type 619 00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:51,279 Speaker 1: of projectile perhaps passing through the head. And again you 620 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:55,800 Speaker 1: start to think about, well, would any of these bodies 621 00:37:55,960 --> 00:37:59,920 Speaker 1: have been subject to gunfire? It's like, hell yeah, because 622 00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: a lot of these people that were buried down there 623 00:38:03,080 --> 00:38:06,120 Speaker 1: were buried down there during the French Revolution, and there 624 00:38:06,880 --> 00:38:09,320 Speaker 1: was a lot of gunplay during the French Revolution, you know, 625 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:13,360 Speaker 1: the you know, French citizens killing French citizens, and so, 626 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 1: you know, it really gave me pause, and it gave 627 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: me pause from the perspective of though that person was 628 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: long gone and inhabited the space where I was just 629 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,560 Speaker 1: kind of a guest. I guess you could say for 630 00:38:25,680 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 1: that period of time, not much has changed. There's a 631 00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:35,320 Speaker 1: level of violence that we think that we know in 632 00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: modern America and around the world. But just like death, 633 00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: evil has always existed. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this 634 00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:48,760 Speaker 1: is BODYB.