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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Katie Curic and this is next question.

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Speaker 1: You may not know, but April, along with being the

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Speaker 1: cruelest month, is alcohol Awareness Month, and it happens to

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Speaker 1: be a subject I've been wanting to tackle for a

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Speaker 1: while now because during the pandemic I noticed some pretty

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Speaker 1: frightening headlines about alcohol use, particularly among women.

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Speaker 2: Americans are drinking far more than they did in previous years.

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Speaker 3: Alcohol abuse is surging among women. During the pandemic, women

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Speaker 3: increased their heavy drinking days by forty one percent.

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Speaker 4: More mothers are drinking and it could lead to alcoholism.

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Speaker 1: One substance abuse doctor calls it an epidemic in a pandemic.

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Speaker 2: Before the pandemic, yet we were seeing this rise in

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Speaker 2: alcoholic use.

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Speaker 1: That's doctor Dawn Sugarmant, a clinical psychologist and researcher at

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Speaker 1: McClain Hospital in Massachusetts and an assistant professor at Harvard

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Speaker 1: Medical School.

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Speaker 2: There used to be this gender gap in rates, and

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Speaker 2: so you know, in the early eighties, the epidemiological studies

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Speaker 2: were showing about a five to one ratio between men

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Speaker 2: and women. That had sort of shrunk in the nineties

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Speaker 2: to about two to one, and now it's getting close

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Speaker 2: to one to one with the pandemic. We you know,

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Speaker 2: it's still sort of early on in the research, but

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Speaker 2: one study had found overall there was an increase by

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Speaker 2: fourteen percent in drinking, and that women had a higher

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Speaker 2: increase at seventeen percent. But that there binge drinking, which

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Speaker 2: we would say would be about having four or more

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Speaker 2: drinks in a short couple hour period of time, had

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Speaker 2: for women had increased forty one percent. So that's quite

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Speaker 2: a jump.

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Speaker 1: So is there something about women that make them more

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Speaker 1: susceptible to alcohol abuse? Apparently the answer is yes.

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Speaker 2: Women absorb and metabolize alcohol differently than men. For instance,

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Speaker 2: women have less total body water, so when they drink,

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Speaker 2: the alcohol less diluted in their body, so it's more concentrated.

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Speaker 2: They also have less of an enzyme that breaks down alcohols,

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Speaker 2: so they don't metabolize it as much. So for a

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Speaker 2: woman of the same weight as a man who's drinking

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Speaker 2: the same amount, they're going to have more alcohol in

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Speaker 2: their system, more concentrated alcohol in their system, and it's

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Speaker 2: going to stay in there longer. So that makes them

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Speaker 2: more vulnerable to having the physical negative consequences of alcohol.

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Speaker 1: So on today's episode, women and alcohol abuse. We'll talk

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Speaker 1: to two women who hit rock bottom and not only

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Speaker 1: found their way out, but made recovery spaces for people

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Speaker 1: just like them. We'll also hear from an interventionist on

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Speaker 1: how to help someone you love. But we begin with

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Speaker 1: my co host for this episode, Elizabeth Vargas, award winning

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Speaker 1: broadcast journalist, podcaster, and author of Between Breaths, a memoir

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Speaker 1: of panic and addiction. I'm here with my friend Elizabeth Fargas,

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Speaker 1: who has experienced what it's like to be a woman

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Speaker 1: who has a drinking problem and who has come out

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Speaker 1: the other side. Elizabeth and I've known each other Gosh,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to say.

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Speaker 5: How long, but decades.

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Speaker 1: We'll just say for decades. Perhaps our most famous television

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Speaker 1: appearance is when we were trying to figure out what

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Speaker 1: the Internet was in nineteen ninety four.

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Speaker 4: What is Internet?

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Speaker 3: Anyway?

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Speaker 5: Internet is that massive computer network, the one that's becoming

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Speaker 5: really big.

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Speaker 4: Now, what do you mean that's big? How does what

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Speaker 4: do you write to it?

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Speaker 5: Like mail?

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Speaker 1: No, A lot of people use it and communicate. I

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Speaker 1: guess they can communicate with NBC writers and producers. Alison,

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Speaker 1: can you explain what Internet is? It's sort of embarrassing

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Speaker 1: after all the work we've done, that that is sort

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Speaker 1: of one of the one of the most.

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Speaker 5: Shared the moment every couple of years.

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Speaker 6: And yeah, but Elizabeth has not only written about women

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Speaker 6: and alcohol, she's lived it, as I said, She's done

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Speaker 6: several hour specials on it.

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Speaker 1: And I'm so grateful, actually, Elizabeth, that you've taken time

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Speaker 1: out of your schedule to really educate me and all

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Speaker 1: our listeners about this issue, which has become really a

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Speaker 1: huge problem. And why don't we talk just briefly before

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Speaker 1: we talked to some other experts, because I feel like

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Speaker 1: you're an expert yourself. You describe yourself, Elizabeth, as a

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Speaker 1: high functioning alcoholic, and you were able to hide this

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Speaker 1: for years, weren't you?

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Speaker 5: Yeah? Oh yeah, I mean I had George Stephanoppolis, you know,

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Speaker 5: interviewed me on Good Morning America about this, and he said,

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Speaker 5: I have sat next to you for hundreds of hours

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Speaker 5: of live television at that point, because we co hosted

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Speaker 5: Good Ring a Maria get Together and even during nine

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Speaker 5: to eleven many of the specials together. He said, I've

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Speaker 5: never once ever, ever seen any sign of this issue

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Speaker 5: in your life, and close girlfriends of mine were like, what, No,

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Speaker 5: not you The only I really did keep it very,

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Speaker 5: very hidden, similar to the way I kept my anxiety hidden,

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Speaker 5: which was what I was self medicating, and it sadly

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Speaker 5: also kept me in denial because I thought, Oh, I

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Speaker 5: can't be an alcoholic. I can't be addicted to the substance.

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Speaker 5: This can't be a problem for me because I don't

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Speaker 5: look like that. I haven't you know, I'm not homeless,

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Speaker 5: I'm not jobless, I'm not you know, I'm a mother,

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Speaker 5: I'm a wife, I'm a network news anchor, I'm all

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Speaker 5: these things. Therefore, I cannot be an alcoholic. And I

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Speaker 5: managed to quit, you know, when I got pregnant, Although

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Speaker 5: the first time I got pregnant it was so hard

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Speaker 5: to quit. That should have been a massive warning sign

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Speaker 5: for me. How did you finally come to terms with it?

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Speaker 5: And how did you finally stop? You know? I didn't

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Speaker 5: stop after my very worst ex experiences. You know, I

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Speaker 5: write about this in my book that I had a

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Speaker 5: very scary experience that sent me to the emergency room.

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Speaker 5: And it was really the only really true blackout I've

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Speaker 5: ever had. I wasn't one of those people who blacked

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Speaker 5: out all the time, but that didn't scare me sober.

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Speaker 5: I did go to rehab. I went to rehab two

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Speaker 5: different rehabs. One of them was really really great, one

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Speaker 5: was not so great. But it wasn't rehab that finally

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Speaker 5: got me to state to get sober. It was me

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Speaker 5: quietly finally deciding I can't do this anymore. I can't

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Speaker 5: lie anymore. I can't hide this anymore. I don't want to.

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Speaker 5: That's the key. I don't want to. I spend a

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Speaker 5: lot of time, you know, looking for, as I called it,

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Speaker 5: door number three. You know, there's got to be another

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Speaker 5: option here, but I couldn't. There wasn't another option, and

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Speaker 5: I had to finally sort of come to that decision

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Speaker 5: all by myself. And I'm so grateful I did well.

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Speaker 1: I'm not only proud, so proud of what you've able

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Speaker 1: to accomplish personally, but your courage in talking about this publicly,

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Speaker 1: I think has helped so many people because it was

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Speaker 1: so shrouded and shame and secrecy.

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Speaker 5: It's still Katie, it still is and stigma.

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Speaker 3: We know.

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Speaker 5: I'm on the board of directors for the Partnership and Addiction.

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Speaker 5: We do a lot of science based research for the

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Speaker 5: government on this, and we know that stigma is the

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Speaker 5: singular most important reason people do not seek help. They're

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Speaker 5: afraid to They're afraid to admit they might have a problem.

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Speaker 5: They're afraid to admit they need help. They're afraid of

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Speaker 5: the consequences they will suffer in their personal and professional

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Speaker 5: lives by making that admission. And only I firmly believe

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Speaker 5: I mean listen, I was outed when I was in rehab.

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Speaker 5: It was a deeply painful experience for me. It was excruciating.

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Speaker 5: But I don't know that I would have written my

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Speaker 5: book if I hadn't been outed. But my story was

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Speaker 5: already out there. I thought, well, I might as well

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Speaker 5: tell my own story since everybody else thinks they know

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Speaker 5: the whole story. But I deeply believe that more people

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Speaker 5: talking openly is the best way we can ship away

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Speaker 5: at the stigma and the shame, because that then we

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Speaker 5: realized that. And I have never felt lonelier in my

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Speaker 5: entire life than when I was struggling with alcohol because

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Speaker 5: I didn't I was too afraid to tell anybody what

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Speaker 5: was going on. And that's why I wrote my book.

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Speaker 5: So that you know, people can see some one other

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Speaker 5: person's story. And there are a lot of great books

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Speaker 5: out there now, really good books, especially by women talking

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Speaker 5: about their struggles with alcohol and why they drank. And

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Speaker 5: those books helped me. They helped me a lot realize

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Speaker 5: that I'm not alone.

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Speaker 1: When Katie Oluwatoyan started her sober journey, she didn't see

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Speaker 1: herself in any of the recovery spaces she sought out,

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Speaker 1: from the familiar twelve step route to rehab an outpatient programs,

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Speaker 1: to online communities.

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Speaker 7: I always wondered why I was the only Black person

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Speaker 7: in those spaces when I know it was just common

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Speaker 7: sense that black people, people of color go through a

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Speaker 7: lot of trauma, and it just makes sense that they

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Speaker 7: too would have popas with alcohol.

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Speaker 1: Through her own recovery, Katie started something to fill the

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Speaker 1: void for black women like her. The Sober Black Girls

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Speaker 1: Club started as a blog, a space for Katie to

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Speaker 1: share her story. In twenty nineteen, the blog grew into

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Speaker 1: an online collective, a small support group of black women

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Speaker 1: who identified with Katie's experience. The pandemic expanded the community

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Speaker 1: even more with weekly zoom meetings and eventually in person

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Speaker 1: regional meetups. Today, the Sober Black Girls Club has more

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Speaker 1: than twelve hundred members. Tell us about your relationship with

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Speaker 1: alcohol and how it developed. When did you start drinking.

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Speaker 1: It was later in life, right correct.

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Speaker 7: I started drinking when I started college. Honestly, I actually

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Speaker 7: remember like the first day, literally my dad and my

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Speaker 7: brother dropped me off, unloaded all my clothes and dorm items.

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Speaker 7: And as soon as they left or had got like

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Speaker 7: a knock on the door and it was a fat

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Speaker 7: fat dude, some fat guy, some fat boy, and literally,

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Speaker 7: like I remember, we went. We partied that night and

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Speaker 7: we drank my first time drinking, and it was just amazing,

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Speaker 7: the relief, the just the looseness, like just be feeling

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Speaker 7: very loose and feeling very free. It was just a

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Speaker 7: crazy experience and it was something that I have never

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Speaker 7: ever experienced before. It was my first time drinking alcohol,

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Speaker 7: and during that time it was was pretty good.

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Speaker 1: I thought it was interesting. And Elizabeth, I know you

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Speaker 1: read this too, that Katie's background, her Nigerian background. Culturally,

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Speaker 1: your family, you guys didn't drink a lot, well, most

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Speaker 1: families don't drink a lot when when the kids. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I guess, but you didn't really, you know, it wasn't

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Speaker 1: part of your culture.

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Speaker 4: No, honestly, like not at all.

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Speaker 7: For a while, I went to a private school, like

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Speaker 7: an Irish Catholic private school in New York City, so

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Speaker 7: it was pretty strict, you know, uniforums, always being disciplined

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Speaker 7: and on time it was like a different error.

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Speaker 4: It was pretty strict.

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Speaker 7: And then even when I started attending public school again

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Speaker 7: just having the parents that I had literally school Monday

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Speaker 7: through Friday. Then after going to Kuwan classes Saturday, I

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Speaker 7: was in a Saturday science and math program.

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Speaker 4: Sunday was Sunday school.

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Speaker 7: It was just NonStop work and order and just activity.

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Speaker 7: So there was honestly no not even any room, let alone.

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Speaker 7: My family definitely didn't drink or keep alcohol in the

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Speaker 7: in the home at all.

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Speaker 1: You started drinking just really to party right in college,

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Speaker 1: which is not that unusual. And when did it go

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Speaker 1: from drinking social drinking to drinking on a regular basis,

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Speaker 1: sort of at all hours of the day and not

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Speaker 1: not in a social setting.

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Speaker 4: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 7: Okay, So I had graduated law school, just finished graduating

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Speaker 7: law school, and this is not funny. I can laugh

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Speaker 7: about it now because I'm in a better place, but

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Speaker 7: back then, none of this was hilarious or funny and

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Speaker 7: any type of rank. But I had just graduated law school.

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Speaker 7: You know, I had my firm, I just signed a

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Speaker 7: lease in New York City. I had broken up with

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Speaker 7: my boyfriend. You know, I just was so ready to

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Speaker 7: start this new chapter in life. However, there was this

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Speaker 7: thing I had to do. I had to pass the bar.

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Speaker 7: I had to take it, and I had to pass

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Speaker 7: the bar. And I remember feeling a lot of pressure

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Speaker 7: because there was this there was this thing, I don't

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Speaker 7: want to call this stigma, but there was this thing

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Speaker 7: that like, black students don't pass the bar on the

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Speaker 7: first try.

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Speaker 4: Now, looking back, when.

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Speaker 7: You compare the ratio the amount of black students that

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Speaker 7: were in my law school, compare them to the right

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Speaker 7: student the white students. Excuse me, ratio wise, we all

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Speaker 7: cost and feel at the same time. However, when it's

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Speaker 7: just like five of us in the class, it kind

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Speaker 7: of looks and we all fail.

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Speaker 4: It kind of looks really really bad. So I had

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Speaker 4: a lot of pressure.

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Speaker 7: For one just being known to be known to being

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Speaker 7: really smart and intelligent. I had a lot of pressure

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Speaker 7: on that side. Then I had pressure, and I had

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Speaker 7: a job, and even though my job wasn't contingent on

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Speaker 7: passing the bar. I still didn't want to be working

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Speaker 7: and had not passed the bar, and then the pressure

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Speaker 7: of being.

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Speaker 4: I didn't want to be one of the black students

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Speaker 4: to fail. I just did it.

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Speaker 7: So I started to take medication, and I'm going to

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Speaker 7: say a lot of caffeine, basically caffeine pills, not even medication,

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Speaker 7: so like working out pills, caffeine pills, drinking a lot

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Speaker 7: of coffee. And I was studying literally from like nine

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Speaker 7: am to like ten pm. However, when you're drinking so

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Speaker 7: much coffee in the morning, I wasn't able to fall asleep.

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Speaker 4: So I was using wine.

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Speaker 7: I remember diuscinctively wine and moonshine, you know, because I

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Speaker 7: was broke clearly studying for the bar, I was using

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Speaker 7: wine and moonshine to fall asleep.

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Speaker 4: I was just guzzling bottles and bottles.

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Speaker 7: And that's when it started, literally in the summer of

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Speaker 7: twenty seventeen, as I was studying for the bar, morning

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Speaker 7: time caffeine pills and coffee and then nighttime moonshine and wine.

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Speaker 1: You had no idea, Katie, that you had a drinking problem, really,

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Speaker 1: which seems hard for people to wrap their heads around

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Speaker 1: until you went to a therapist and she basically said,

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Speaker 1: we have to address this. And I'm curious, were you

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Speaker 1: just in denial? And I think, Elizabeth, you can probably

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Speaker 1: speak to this.

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Speaker 5: No, I had the same thing, you know. I was like,

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Speaker 5: what do you mean? I'm what do you mean I've

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Speaker 5: a drinking problem. It never occurred to me either that

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Speaker 5: I had a drinking problem, and Katie, I'll be honest,

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Speaker 5: my doctor didn't think that. He was like, just cut back,

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Speaker 5: you know, just it's no big deal. I would I

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Speaker 5: would come in. I don't know if you had the

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Speaker 5: same experience, but I would come in like, you know, dehydrated.

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Speaker 5: And it was clearly what the physical effects were of

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Speaker 5: having had too much alcohol. And nobody said for the

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Speaker 5: longest time that you have a drinking problem. It's very difficult,

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Speaker 5: and especially if culturally, as you were just saying, you

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Speaker 5: grew up in an environment where nobody else was drinking,

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Speaker 5: it might be it's difficult to actually understand and recognize

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Speaker 5: that in yourself.

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Speaker 7: Honestly, in twenty seventeen, if you would have, even with

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Speaker 7: a law degree, with so much education, if you would

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Speaker 7: have said Katie, what does an addiction mean? I'd be like,

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Speaker 7: what does it mean to have an addiction? What does

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Speaker 7: adiction look like? I would have said someone houseless on

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Speaker 7: forty second Street. I had no idea that it was

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Speaker 7: even scientifically possible for me to have an addiction, especially

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Speaker 7: to alcohol and drugs. I literally thought that, no, you

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Speaker 7: know the show Shameless. I thought that addiction was like

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Speaker 7: white people's problems, And honestly, that's just what I thought.

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Speaker 4: It was. Just I thought you had to be houseless.

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Speaker 4: I thought you had to have a big belly. I thought.

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Speaker 7: I sewed so many like physical characteristics of what I

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Speaker 7: thought like a person suffering from an addiction looked like,

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Speaker 7: and I said, that's not me. But then, when I

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Speaker 7: spent the year just living my life, still working, I

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Speaker 7: realized as I went through jobs, as I went through apartments,

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Speaker 7: as I went through friends and partners, that I actually

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Speaker 7: might have a problem, and I had to accept that

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Speaker 7: alcohol was pretty much a part of that problem.

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Speaker 5: Did anybody in your life tell you that otherwise, like

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Speaker 5: any of your friends or somebody who was seeing what

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Speaker 5: you were doing to yourself?

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Speaker 4: You know, you know, it's actually a really good question.

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Speaker 4: You know, I.

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Speaker 7: Actually, I think that for a long time, everyone just

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Speaker 7: really knew me as a very you know, a strong,

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Speaker 7: strong black woman. Excuse me, you know the girl who's

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Speaker 7: who was? You know, I say what I want, what

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Speaker 7: I want to I'm smart, I can back it up

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Speaker 7: with facts. I can I can support myself, I can

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Speaker 7: support a community. So this is just my attitude because

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Speaker 7: in all reality, my drinking problem really developed into an

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Speaker 7: aggressive like personality that I thought at a time was

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Speaker 7: just me. But it wasn't until I got sober that

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Speaker 7: I realized, like, oh, this really isn't all me. That

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Speaker 7: had a lot to do with the alcohol that I

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Speaker 7: was consuming.

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Speaker 3: You know, a lot of my story I can look

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Speaker 3: at backwards.

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Speaker 1: Emily Paulson is a sober, working mom of five, but

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Speaker 1: her drinking began long before she became a mom.

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Speaker 3: I used it to cope from a very young age.

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Speaker 3: But my behavior always mimicked the people around me. You know,

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Speaker 3: when you're drinking in high school, it's you know, it's

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Speaker 3: against the rules, and you're already doing something you shouldn't

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Speaker 3: be doing, but it wasn't out of the ordinary. And

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Speaker 3: you know, got to college and did some binge drinking.

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Speaker 3: But again, kind of normalized in college, so it was

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Speaker 3: always hidden even when it was problematic, and it really,

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Speaker 3: you know, I drank in my young adult years, and

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Speaker 3: it was really when I became a mom that I

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Speaker 3: really started using it to cope. And what was hard

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Speaker 3: about it is is that I didn't fit the mold.

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Speaker 3: If I if I googled, you know, I'm I an alcoholic,

341
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Speaker 3: which I did many times, I couldn't check all the

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Speaker 3: I couldn't answer all the questions like I couldn't check

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Speaker 3: yes and all the questions. You know, I didn't grow

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Speaker 3: up with alcoholic parents. I could stop because I stopped,

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Speaker 3: you know, five times for five pregnancies, nine months at

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Speaker 3: a time. So I thought, no, it's it's not a problem.

347
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Speaker 3: And it wasn't that something bad happened every time I drank.

348
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Speaker 3: But anytime I did, you know, get in a really

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Speaker 3: big fight with my husband or send a text message

350
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Speaker 3: I didn't want to and or feel ashamed about something,

351
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Speaker 3: alcohol was always the common denominator. And I think being

352
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Speaker 3: pregnant so many times back to back really kept it

353
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Speaker 3: at bay. And when really was when my last child

354
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Speaker 3: was born, it was kind of like all bets were

355
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Speaker 3: off and my drinking really escalated. But again I was

356
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Speaker 3: looking around me, and you know, other moms drank, and

357
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Speaker 3: you know, it was kind of a joke. It was this, uh,

358
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Speaker 3: you know, that's what moms need to do. W Yeah,

359
00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,480
Speaker 3: I mean you whine, I whine, right, All those jokes

360
00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:40,480
Speaker 3: that really normalized something that I deep down really felt

361
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Speaker 3: was a problem, and I just didn't want to admit it.

362
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Speaker 3: I didn't want to look at it further. And I

363
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Speaker 3: would always say, but I haven't you know, this hasn't

364
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Speaker 3: happened yet. I haven't I haven't gotten in trouble with

365
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Speaker 3: a law I haven't you know, all of these things

366
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Speaker 3: I thought should happen, these rock bottom things, and I

367
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Speaker 3: really didn't have a place to go. I think that's

368
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Speaker 3: one thing along the way now looking back, that I

369
00:20:06,400 --> 00:20:09,760
Speaker 3: wish there was a place for people who were questioning

370
00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,359
Speaker 3: who who again couldn't check all those boxes, who hadn't

371
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Speaker 3: had all those rock bottom consequences. Because eventually, then when

372
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Speaker 3: I did well, then I fit Then I was knocking

373
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Speaker 3: on the door of AA and I fit right in

374
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Speaker 3: because I'd had the DUI, and I'd been in the hospital,

375
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Speaker 3: and I had marriage problems in all of these things,

376
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:28,719
Speaker 3: but I can look back and see that I had

377
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Speaker 3: nowhere to go for a really long time.

378
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Speaker 5: There's a saying that the people who take the alcohol

379
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Speaker 5: quizzes are because they're taking the alcohol quiz they have

380
00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:38,679
Speaker 5: an alcohol problem, you.

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Speaker 3: Know, like it should just be a pop up, but

382
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Speaker 3: you google that like yes, go.

383
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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, help me. If you don't have an alcohol problem,

384
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Speaker 5: you're not online taking a quiz or taking the quiz

385
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Speaker 5: in the back of Cosmo magazine when they used to

386
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Speaker 5: have that. And all these movements that have popped up

387
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Speaker 5: that are sober curious or just you know, opening this

388
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Speaker 5: discussion and dialogue about your lifelationship with alcohol. I don't

389
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Speaker 5: remember seeing any of these before I got sober, you know,

390
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,960
Speaker 5: which was, you know, several years ago now, But it

391
00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:11,800
Speaker 5: seems like we've had a lot more of these movements

392
00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:15,639
Speaker 5: pop up since then, and I often wonder, you know,

393
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Speaker 5: maybe I would have stopped sooner or managed it better

394
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Speaker 5: sooner if I had been able to be in a

395
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Speaker 5: room with a bunch of other women who were talking.

396
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Speaker 3: About this right, Because I think there is a point where,

397
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Speaker 3: once you're using it to cope, I think there's a

398
00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:31,680
Speaker 3: point where there's a point of no return. Right, Like

399
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:35,320
Speaker 3: you can't unpickle a cucumber if you're aware. It's like

400
00:21:35,359 --> 00:21:38,680
Speaker 3: there's not enough informed consent out there to know, Hey,

401
00:21:38,760 --> 00:21:40,920
Speaker 3: this could happen. This is an addictive substance and you

402
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:43,040
Speaker 3: could get addicted to it. You don't have to check

403
00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:45,120
Speaker 3: all these boxes, you don't have to hit some proverbial

404
00:21:45,200 --> 00:21:47,720
Speaker 3: rock bottom. It's just And it's not a moral thing

405
00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 3: around drinking or not drinking. It's just, hey, maybe maybe

406
00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,320
Speaker 3: you should know these things about this substance so that

407
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,440
Speaker 3: you can make informed choices. And it's funny, Elizabeth. I

408
00:21:58,480 --> 00:21:59,840
Speaker 3: don't know if it's funny is the right word, but

409
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Speaker 3: it's It reminds me because your book came out after

410
00:22:05,040 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 3: I had been hospitalized for I had taken sleeping pills

411
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 3: and champagne, and I was in the hospital and I

412
00:22:12,080 --> 00:22:14,240
Speaker 3: was still at the point. I remember reading your book

413
00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 3: and having to put it away because I was still

414
00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:20,440
Speaker 3: at the point where I was reading things just to

415
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Speaker 3: prove to myself that I wasn't bad enough to quit.

416
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Speaker 3: And as I was reading your book, I'm like, uh, oh,

417
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Speaker 3: uh oh, this is resonating, and I wasn't ready to

418
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Speaker 3: face it until again it was you know, January of

419
00:22:36,160 --> 00:22:40,879
Speaker 3: twenty seventeen, when I finally got sober, and and I

420
00:22:40,960 --> 00:22:43,320
Speaker 3: think it was I think it was something you said about,

421
00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 3: you know, loving your kids so much that.

422
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Speaker 5: I would die for them.

423
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Speaker 8: I would do I couldn't.

424
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Speaker 5: Yeah, I would die for my kids, but I couldn't

425
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,600
Speaker 5: stop drinking for them, yep.

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Speaker 3: And I don't think anybody ever put that into words.

427
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:01,199
Speaker 3: And like, I'd had so much at that point, how

428
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Speaker 3: could I keep doing this to my kids? And it

429
00:23:03,920 --> 00:23:10,080
Speaker 3: was like, like I someone else kids it Yeah, no, yeah, I.

430
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Speaker 5: Don't know about you, but when I'm in the rooms

431
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Speaker 5: of recovery even today, it's the moms who are in

432
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Speaker 5: the rooms who feel like they I know from my

433
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:25,040
Speaker 5: personal experience that the deepest reservoirs of shame for me

434
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Speaker 5: surround the fact that I was a mother who drank,

435
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Speaker 5: you know, not just that I was a woman who drank,

436
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,040
Speaker 5: because there's that too, Like somehow it seems somehow okayer

437
00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:40,800
Speaker 5: for a man to be drunk or tipsy, but not

438
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,440
Speaker 5: for a woman. But it's even less okay.

439
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:46,840
Speaker 1: For a mother to well, there's so much pressure and

440
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:52,560
Speaker 1: there's so much in society about the bad mother, right

441
00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 1: and judging yourself against those standards. I was telling Elizabeth

442
00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,840
Speaker 1: during my short lived talk show, I had someone on

443
00:24:03,280 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: and I was, I think, in retrospect, kind of judgmental

444
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 1: about this trend to have wine boxes like that. You know,

445
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:16,000
Speaker 1: we give our kids juice boxes, but there were wine

446
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: boxes or doing like while the kids were on playdates,

447
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:24,160
Speaker 1: the moms were drinking wine. And I remember saying, gosh,

448
00:24:24,440 --> 00:24:28,119
Speaker 1: that sounds kind of dangerous and is that really a

449
00:24:28,200 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: good idea? And I got a lot of pushback from

450
00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,119
Speaker 1: people in the audience but also from people on my

451
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: staff that I was kind of being holier than thou

452
00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 1: about these women and these hard working moms who had

453
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,080
Speaker 1: the right to relax and be, you know, connect over

454
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:51,280
Speaker 1: a glass or two or three of wine.

455
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 3: You know, it's funny because if you say, there's so

456
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 3: many things that are demonized, right like from the time

457
00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:00,920
Speaker 3: you give birth. It's like breastfeeding or formula feeding or

458
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 3: you know, rice cereal or not like all of these things.

459
00:25:03,320 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 3: And so I think just being a mom, it comes

460
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,160
Speaker 3: with this shame in this judgment, and I think we're

461
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,879
Speaker 3: just waiting to come back and just be like, hey,

462
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,800
Speaker 3: don't tell me I can't do that thing. Look how

463
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:14,879
Speaker 3: hard I work. Look how difficult this is. I deserve

464
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 3: this thing. And when you really look at it, and

465
00:25:19,920 --> 00:25:21,920
Speaker 3: you look at the marketing around it, and you look

466
00:25:21,920 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 3: at the messages were being sent, why is that a

467
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,439
Speaker 3: necessary thing? Why do we need to drink at ten

468
00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 3: am at a play date? Which, again, all these things

469
00:25:29,840 --> 00:25:31,919
Speaker 3: are things that I did. I don't say this as

470
00:25:31,960 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 3: a judgment. It's in looking back that I realized, Gosh,

471
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 3: I remember going on a cleanse and demonizing sugar and

472
00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,359
Speaker 3: gluten and dairy, but I never took out alcohol. Why

473
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: aren't we talking about this?

474
00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 4: Bye? Remember googling sobriety groups.

475
00:25:50,320 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: Again, Katie Aluatoyan, and.

476
00:25:52,840 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 7: I remember the first one that popped up was a

477
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,560
Speaker 7: twelve step twelve step traditional meeting. I went to my

478
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 7: face meeting and it was really really far from where

479
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,720
Speaker 7: I lived, and at that time I was really down bad.

480
00:26:06,200 --> 00:26:09,399
Speaker 4: In other words, I was in a bad place. I

481
00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:10,240
Speaker 4: didn't have a car.

482
00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 7: I had to take public transportation everywhere I went, Uber's buses, train, subways,

483
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 7: et cetera. And I remember I had to travel about

484
00:26:18,960 --> 00:26:21,960
Speaker 7: an hour and a half to the nearest twelve step

485
00:26:22,080 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 7: meeting at that time, and when I went, I was

486
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:28,800
Speaker 7: the only black person there. And at first that didn't

487
00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,479
Speaker 7: really ring alarms because the truth is, in a lot

488
00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:34,480
Speaker 7: of spaces that I were in up to that point,

489
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 7: I was pretty much one of the only few black

490
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 7: persons and a lot of spaces that I was a

491
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,720
Speaker 7: part of in high school and college, in law school,

492
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,920
Speaker 7: so it didn't really bother me too much. But I

493
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 7: remember when it was a speaker's meeting, and I remember

494
00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,159
Speaker 7: the speaker telling her story of how, you know, she

495
00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 7: got into addiction, and when she was talking about her

496
00:26:54,720 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 7: time and addiction she was, she had basically said, for

497
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:01,320
Speaker 7: lack of better words, that life was so horrible. I

498
00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:03,879
Speaker 7: was living in this neighborhood and the neighborhood that she

499
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:07,960
Speaker 7: said was my neighborhood, and the way she talked about

500
00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:11,040
Speaker 7: my neighborhood was just in such an awful way. But

501
00:27:11,200 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 7: the truth is, there's nothing wrong with my neighborhood, just

502
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 7: this fact that it's just not white.

503
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,359
Speaker 4: There's absolutely nothing wrong.

504
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:21,280
Speaker 7: With my neighborhood. I live in one of the safest

505
00:27:21,320 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 7: bows that you could live in New York City. Yes,

506
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 7: it's like somewhat segregated where we have one, you know,

507
00:27:26,800 --> 00:27:30,760
Speaker 7: the North Shore. It was just pretty much multicultural Black Asians,

508
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 7: Spanish folks, and then you have the South Shore, which

509
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 7: is more white folks, and that's where the meeting was at.

510
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 4: But there was nothing wrong with my with my neighborhood.

511
00:27:39,720 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 7: So after that, I was like, absolutely not, and I

512
00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 7: just didn't attend that meeting anymore and I started to

513
00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,560
Speaker 7: I joined Instagram, I remember, and I started to you know,

514
00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 7: be involved with the Instagram community. However, that community was

515
00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:57,119
Speaker 7: also white, and it wasn't a problem that there were

516
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 7: that it was a white community. Problem with the Instagram

517
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:04,560
Speaker 7: recovery community at that time was that it was painting

518
00:28:04,680 --> 00:28:08,080
Speaker 7: a one sided picture of addiction and recovery at that time.

519
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:11,359
Speaker 7: Sobriety was this thing where you know, you do yoga

520
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 7: and udrink coffee and you're doing this and everything was

521
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 7: just so bright and pink and cheery, and at that time,

522
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:17,399
Speaker 7: I was it.

523
00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:19,359
Speaker 4: Was such a dark place. I was in such a

524
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:20,320
Speaker 4: dark place. Excuse me.

525
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:22,639
Speaker 7: I was in a bad place and I just couldn't

526
00:28:22,720 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 7: understand like what was going on. And that's what, you know,

527
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,120
Speaker 7: encouraged me to create my blog. But the first two

528
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 7: things that I did that didn't work was definitely a

529
00:28:32,640 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 7: top stop traditional program and then just trying to get

530
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:40,120
Speaker 7: into this holistic lifestyle in the beginning. It didn't work

531
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,000
Speaker 7: because I actually needed professional help.

532
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 4: It wasn't enough that I was doing yoga and drinking

533
00:28:44,520 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 4: coffee and.

534
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:48,600
Speaker 7: Saying that, like, you know, like sobriety is just this amazing,

535
00:28:49,160 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 7: great thing. I actually needed a professional to help me

536
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 7: with the physical part of my addiction.

537
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,360
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you, Elizabeth about this, because I

538
00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:07,040
Speaker 1: know AA is inclusive, anybody can come, it's open to all,

539
00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: and yet I find it fascinating that implicit bias can

540
00:29:13,960 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 1: creep into a twelve step program and the things that

541
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:22,800
Speaker 1: made it hard for Katie to get there, you know,

542
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:27,840
Speaker 1: public transportation where it was located, despite the fact that

543
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:31,080
Speaker 1: they want to be open to all, in some ways,

544
00:29:31,240 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: can make it unwelcoming for people of color.

545
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,800
Speaker 5: I find that so interesting. Yeah, you know, my experience

546
00:29:39,120 --> 00:29:46,680
Speaker 5: is that, first of all, Katie's right. In most twelve

547
00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 5: step AA meetings have gone to it is mostly white people.

548
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 5: There have been a couple of meetings where there has

549
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,680
Speaker 5: been only one black person. One person of color. Depends

550
00:29:56,720 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 5: on how you defend you know, defined person of color.

551
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,680
Speaker 5: I I you know, I learned and heard early on

552
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,040
Speaker 5: that you know, try another meeting. There are some meetings

553
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 5: that you go into in certain parts of Manhattan where

554
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 5: I live, where you know, it's I don't fit in

555
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,920
Speaker 5: with that group. Is as much. There are meetings for

556
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:19,120
Speaker 5: every sort of demographic. There are meetings that cater to

557
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,959
Speaker 5: LGBTQ communities. There are meetings that are women's meetings. There

558
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 5: are meetings that are men's meetings. There are meetings that

559
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:30,520
Speaker 5: are grittier, and meetings that are very you know, high

560
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:36,320
Speaker 5: society problems dominating. To put it kindly, it's basically it's

561
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 5: group therapy where people can get into a room and

562
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:46,080
Speaker 5: you know, bear their souls and and hear about other

563
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,280
Speaker 5: people's struggles and triumphs, and you know, it is really

564
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:51,560
Speaker 5: I have found great comfort in it. I will also

565
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 5: say I didn't like it at first, but I think

566
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 5: that had more to do with I didn't like having

567
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 5: to call myself an alcoholic. I didn't like having to

568
00:30:58,480 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 5: deal with the fact that I had a drinking part.

569
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 5: I didn't want someone to take away my crutch. I

570
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 5: wanted door number three, like, you know, where's door number three? Please?

571
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 5: And I spent a couple of years like banging around

572
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,560
Speaker 5: looking for door number three before figuring out there wasn't one.

573
00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 5: And so everybody comes to sobriety and acceptance of your

574
00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:21,800
Speaker 5: disease of alcoholism if you want to, you know, accept

575
00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 5: that it's a disease or whatever however you define it.

576
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 5: But it's you have to accept that first. You can't

577
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,280
Speaker 5: be in denial. I was in denial for a long time,

578
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 5: and I, you know, to my detriment because sort of

579
00:31:36,680 --> 00:31:38,280
Speaker 5: like you, as you were just saying at the beginning,

580
00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,600
Speaker 5: drinking was lovely and great. I've defined my quote unquote

581
00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:46,640
Speaker 5: career of drinking in three stages, magic, medicine, and misery.

582
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:50,960
Speaker 5: And it was magical at first because it worked, and

583
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:53,600
Speaker 5: then it was medicinal because I needed it in order

584
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 5: to get through. And then it was miserable in the end.

585
00:31:56,400 --> 00:31:58,640
Speaker 5: And it's amazing how long a person will stay in

586
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 5: the miserable stage, you know, and refuse to take that

587
00:32:03,640 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 5: enormous step of admitting you need help and seeking that out.

588
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:12,520
Speaker 7: It's difficult, I if I may at first, So I

589
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,160
Speaker 7: love the threems. That's like amazing in a perfect way

590
00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,720
Speaker 7: to even describe my drinking history.

591
00:32:18,080 --> 00:32:19,680
Speaker 4: I also want to say at the time that I

592
00:32:19,880 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 4: was trying.

593
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 7: I did attend my first twelve step meetings, and then

594
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:26,560
Speaker 7: eventually later on in my sobriety, I started to still

595
00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 7: attend them for fellowship. However, I knew that this was

596
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 7: knock going. I wasn't going to do the steps. I

597
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:32,880
Speaker 7: didn't want to sponsor. I was just there for fellowship

598
00:32:32,920 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 7: at one point in a different meeting with more people

599
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 7: of color from various different backgrounds and religious beliefs. But

600
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,760
Speaker 7: I will say that at the time that I did

601
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 7: try my first twelve step meeting, there was this thing

602
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 7: of like outside issue. So they might have had like

603
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 7: a women's meeting, and they might have had this meeting,

604
00:32:52,960 --> 00:32:55,880
Speaker 7: but they didn't have meetings for people of color. And

605
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,440
Speaker 7: even in the meetings that it wasn't until George Floyd.

606
00:32:59,480 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 7: It's what funny, which I think is extremely embarrassing because

607
00:33:04,000 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 7: it's so obvious. How if you can accept that women

608
00:33:07,760 --> 00:33:10,680
Speaker 7: and experiences that we face as women can play a

609
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 7: role in out of trauma, how can you not think

610
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 7: that being black or being of color will play some

611
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 7: type of role in the trauma that black people face.

612
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 7: But at the time when I did my Phase twelve

613
00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:27,040
Speaker 7: step meeting, I couldn't talk about anything that involved me

614
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:29,440
Speaker 7: being black, and that to me was just a big

615
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:34,080
Speaker 7: red flag because who is this who is this rule protecting?

616
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:37,719
Speaker 4: You know, who is this role aiming to heal? Clearly

617
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:38,360
Speaker 4: not me.

618
00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 3: The day I actually stopped was very It was a

619
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,240
Speaker 3: very normal day for Emily.

620
00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:51,040
Speaker 1: Even admitting she had a drinking problem. Took a series

621
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:52,640
Speaker 1: of rock bottom moments.

622
00:33:53,520 --> 00:33:56,280
Speaker 3: You know, I'd had the DUI, I'd had been in

623
00:33:56,360 --> 00:33:57,760
Speaker 3: the hospital several times.

624
00:33:59,360 --> 00:33:59,520
Speaker 4: You know.

625
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:03,880
Speaker 3: Really helped was after I got a duy, I had

626
00:34:03,920 --> 00:34:07,640
Speaker 3: to do classes, you know, court mandated classes, and I

627
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 3: had a breathalyzer put in my car, which is just

628
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,399
Speaker 3: I mean, there's there's a whole thing that goes along

629
00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: with that, like giving the third grade teacher a ride

630
00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:18,680
Speaker 3: on the field trip, like that conversation you just don't

631
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 3: think about having when you're getting behind the wheel, right,

632
00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:27,360
Speaker 3: So when I had to get the breathalyzer, it really

633
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: opened my eyes to how much I had been drinking,

634
00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:35,239
Speaker 3: even though even though I knew it was like, Wow,

635
00:34:35,280 --> 00:34:37,839
Speaker 3: I couldn't drink and I couldn't drive the car if

636
00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,919
Speaker 3: I drank. So if I was going out to dinner,

637
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 3: it's like, oh, okay, I can't drink here. Oh I

638
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 3: can't drink here. I can't drink here and go to

639
00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 3: the book club. Oh, I can't drink because I can't

640
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:48,000
Speaker 3: drive my car. And then there were times when I

641
00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:49,880
Speaker 3: would drink and then not be able to start the

642
00:34:49,920 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 3: car in the morning to take my kids to school

643
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,239
Speaker 3: because there was still alcohol in my system. And it

644
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,880
Speaker 3: was so confronting. That part of it was. And then

645
00:34:58,920 --> 00:34:59,920
Speaker 3: the conversations I had to.

646
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:00,720
Speaker 5: With my kids.

647
00:35:02,800 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 3: You know, my kids were young, but my oldest two

648
00:35:04,960 --> 00:35:07,200
Speaker 3: were ten and eleven once I got the DUI and

649
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:11,759
Speaker 3: had the breathalyzer put in, and their questions were like

650
00:35:12,400 --> 00:35:15,000
Speaker 3: they were so simple, and yet I never talked about it.

651
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 3: I'd never had to answer those questions like, hey, you know,

652
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 3: why if you have to drink or if you have

653
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:22,080
Speaker 3: to drive home, why did they serve alcohol at restaurants?

654
00:35:22,120 --> 00:35:24,439
Speaker 3: And I'm like, that's a really good question, and I've

655
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,839
Speaker 3: never had to answer that before. And it was really like, hey,

656
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:29,799
Speaker 3: you know, if you've got in trouble for it, why

657
00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,399
Speaker 3: are you still drinking? And that to me was like, oh,

658
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 3: I don't know, Like I don't know, And I was

659
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:40,400
Speaker 3: still in that trying to fit that square peg in

660
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 3: that round hole and making this thing work because I

661
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 3: just thought it'd be easier to be a person who drinks.

662
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,839
Speaker 3: And you know, I woke up on New Year's Day

663
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 3: and again I just got We've gone out to dinner

664
00:35:52,680 --> 00:35:54,799
Speaker 3: with friends. It wasn't a rager. We just drank till

665
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:57,960
Speaker 3: midnight and then went home. And I had blacked out

666
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:00,839
Speaker 3: like an entire weekend of my life. And blackouts were

667
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 3: becoming much more frequent, but this was so confronting because

668
00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:09,759
Speaker 3: I had blacked out, like, you know, things I had

669
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: done with my kids over the weekend. I had just

670
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 3: I'd missed so much of my life. And I heard

671
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: my husband downstairs with the kids, and I'd already been

672
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:21,280
Speaker 3: in the hospital. I'd already you know, been in trouble

673
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 3: with the law, like I was losing everything, and it

674
00:36:23,719 --> 00:36:26,239
Speaker 3: was just so like It's like I could hear my

675
00:36:26,440 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 3: life going on without me, and I could hear what

676
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,800
Speaker 3: that I was just like eliminating myself from my life.

677
00:36:35,960 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 3: And that was finally the point where I just called

678
00:36:38,920 --> 00:36:41,919
Speaker 3: the one person I know who I knew at the time,

679
00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,040
Speaker 3: who was in AA and I'm like, tell me what

680
00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,319
Speaker 3: to do, tell me what to do? I like, if

681
00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 3: I drink again, I just think, like, I think this

682
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 3: is going to kill me. And I started going to

683
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 3: AA and just at that point, it was just unraveling

684
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 3: how I had gotten to that point, and how it

685
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,719
Speaker 3: had been so hard to stop. Even all of those

686
00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,320
Speaker 3: red flags, those rock bottom things were not enough to

687
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:11,279
Speaker 3: make me stop, you know.

688
00:37:11,480 --> 00:37:16,480
Speaker 1: Scary when we come back, how Katie and Emily built

689
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:20,440
Speaker 1: recovery spaces that fit their needs and the needs of

690
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:32,840
Speaker 1: their communities. So you saw this huge vacuum, clearly, Katie,

691
00:37:33,480 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: that wasn't being filled, and you decided to start the

692
00:37:39,239 --> 00:37:40,680
Speaker 1: Sober Black Girls Club.

693
00:37:41,840 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 7: Honestly, when I think back to twenty eighteen, that's when

694
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:46,880
Speaker 7: I created a SPGC, and it wasn't a collective at

695
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,279
Speaker 7: that time. I just created it, you know, as a

696
00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,720
Speaker 7: blog to hold myself accountable. And when you fast forward

697
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,520
Speaker 7: to now, when the pandemic hit, that's when a flock,

698
00:37:56,760 --> 00:38:01,560
Speaker 7: a huge flock of women started to meet emails and

699
00:38:01,719 --> 00:38:05,439
Speaker 7: dms basically saying that they think they have a drinking problem,

700
00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,840
Speaker 7: but they weren't too short. And it reminded me of

701
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 7: my time in twenty seventeen when I was studying for

702
00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,319
Speaker 7: the bar. You know, all that stillness that I had

703
00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:16,120
Speaker 7: by myself.

704
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 4: I wasn't you know, I was in a.

705
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:20,239
Speaker 7: Library, locked into the cubicle, studying, studying. It was in

706
00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:23,399
Speaker 7: those moments of isolation that I really only had two

707
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 7: things that I consider my friend's coffee and my caffeine

708
00:38:26,480 --> 00:38:28,719
Speaker 7: pills and then a bottle, you know. And I can

709
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 7: understand that these women who are so used to doing

710
00:38:32,400 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 7: ten thousand things at one time are now in the

711
00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 7: moments of stillness, and they don't know what to do

712
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,800
Speaker 7: with it now, and what is the easiest thing to do,

713
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 7: especially when you haven't really been paying attention to your

714
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:49,360
Speaker 7: mental health, you haven't really been paying attention to your hobbies.

715
00:38:49,560 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 7: What it is it that you truly like to do.

716
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,440
Speaker 7: Your life has been about your kids. It has been

717
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 7: about going to school, It has been about raising you know,

718
00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 7: doing two jobs at once. The easiest thing to do

719
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:00,920
Speaker 7: to be to the bottle.

720
00:39:01,600 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, we've seen that. We've seen that in the pandemic,

721
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,680
Speaker 5: especially with women that more than men, they've been impacted

722
00:39:07,760 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 5: by mental health challenges, anxiety and depression and self medicating

723
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,399
Speaker 5: that anxiety depression. Drinking has been off the charts among

724
00:39:15,480 --> 00:39:18,200
Speaker 5: women in the pandemic. Much more so than men. And

725
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:21,160
Speaker 5: the isolation you were just talking about, which is, you know,

726
00:39:21,360 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 5: thank God. Can you imaginef this pandemic hit before we

727
00:39:23,880 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 5: had Zoom, before we had an ability to connect at

728
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 5: least online. I don't know what a lot of these

729
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 5: I don't know how people in recovery would have navigated that,

730
00:39:34,000 --> 00:39:35,920
Speaker 5: But I'm not surprised that you started hearing from so

731
00:39:36,000 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 5: many women because they had nowhere else to turn and

732
00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,160
Speaker 5: dealing with the isolation and the responsibility which we know

733
00:39:43,320 --> 00:39:47,960
Speaker 5: falls mainly on the women's shoulders any family when it

734
00:39:48,040 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 5: comes to childcare and that sort of thing. We had

735
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,399
Speaker 5: kids going to you know, zoom school in the other room,

736
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 5: or sometimes all in the same room. It was such

737
00:39:55,080 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 5: an enormous challenge for women during this pandemic, and so

738
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:00,560
Speaker 5: many of them we know statistically, have have turned to

739
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:01,720
Speaker 5: alcohol as a result.

740
00:40:02,400 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: I'm interested, though, in narrowing the focus to black women,

741
00:40:07,480 --> 00:40:11,680
Speaker 1: because I think women in general, as Elizabeth points out,

742
00:40:12,280 --> 00:40:19,040
Speaker 1: were really affected by the pandemic and alcohol abuse increased dramatically.

743
00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:24,000
Speaker 1: But can you talk about what women of color, black

744
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,280
Speaker 1: women who you heard from, some of the specific issues

745
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,520
Speaker 1: they were dealing with, Because I just found it so

746
00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: interesting the added pressure you felt Katie as a black

747
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: woman even before the pandemic, and perhaps exacerbated during the pandemic.

748
00:40:41,480 --> 00:40:45,319
Speaker 7: I think one of the main problems that affects black

749
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 7: women and particularly is that we think that the outlet

750
00:40:51,680 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 7: to our trauma, but whiless if it's cultural trauma, racial trauma,

751
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:02,520
Speaker 7: any type of trauma is either plas or producing. So

752
00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 7: there's this stereotype that, no, this is statistic, it's not stereotype.

753
00:41:06,440 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 7: It's actually true that Black women are the most educated

754
00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 7: group demographic in terms of degrees higher education degrees or

755
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 7: degrees in America. At what costs do folks think that

756
00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:21,760
Speaker 7: that's true? You know, that is costing us our sleep,

757
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:26,919
Speaker 7: our health, our.

758
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:27,840
Speaker 4: Enjoyment, our hobbies.

759
00:41:27,960 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 7: It's costing us so much, and we do feel that

760
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:37,080
Speaker 7: we have to overcompensate in regards to the negative stereotypes

761
00:41:37,080 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 7: that are plaguing that are plaguing society. Some of the

762
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 7: stereotypes that I'm thinking that black people are lazy, that

763
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:44,680
Speaker 7: we're crazy.

764
00:41:45,040 --> 00:41:49,800
Speaker 4: There's all these stereotypes that we don't want to adhere to.

765
00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:52,520
Speaker 7: We don't want to show, even if it means that

766
00:41:52,680 --> 00:41:56,560
Speaker 7: we deny our own selves, our humanity. I've never ever

767
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 7: ever seen until I created a blacks club, or even

768
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 7: heard of of a woman becoming addicted to anything. I've

769
00:42:04,120 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 7: never seen it. I didn't hear about it, but it

770
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 7: doesn't mean that it wasn't happening.

771
00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:09,080
Speaker 4: It does happen.

772
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 7: However, we just keep it a secret because we feel

773
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 7: like we're going to be labeled as crazy or lazy,

774
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,560
Speaker 7: or it's going to be used. It's going to be

775
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 7: mentioned or used against us as some type of excuse.

776
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 7: And also in regards to men in households, I think

777
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 7: this is also another statistic that black women generally make

778
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:32,440
Speaker 7: more or the breadwinners of the household.

779
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:33,720
Speaker 4: At what cost?

780
00:42:33,840 --> 00:42:36,839
Speaker 7: At what expense? Do folks actually think we like going

781
00:42:36,920 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 7: out and working NonStop?

782
00:42:39,280 --> 00:42:40,400
Speaker 4: No, we don't.

783
00:42:41,400 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 7: It's just a lot of pressure in regards to always producing, producing, producing,

784
00:42:45,719 --> 00:42:49,840
Speaker 7: And when the pandemic hit and there was probably you

785
00:42:49,920 --> 00:42:52,239
Speaker 7: couldn't really produce much. We couldn't go to the gym,

786
00:42:52,560 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 7: you know, a lot of our jobs was shut down

787
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,479
Speaker 7: for a period of time. Then what they be turned

788
00:42:56,520 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 7: to pleasure. It's usually just production or pleasure. If we're

789
00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 7: not producing, then we looked to pleasure to release ourselves.

790
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,040
Speaker 4: And what was that that was alcohol? And I think

791
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,360
Speaker 4: that that was basically a generic story that I was

792
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:11,240
Speaker 4: constantly hearing.

793
00:43:12,160 --> 00:43:16,759
Speaker 1: How were other black women reacting to what you were doing?

794
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 1: And an ability for them to voice some of these

795
00:43:21,320 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: pressures and concerns and forces that were making them more

796
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:27,840
Speaker 1: predisposed to abusing alcohol.

797
00:43:29,000 --> 00:43:33,080
Speaker 7: I think first, like, something that I do constantly hear

798
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 7: is I don't even know what I like. I don't

799
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:38,120
Speaker 7: even know who I am. I don't even know what

800
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 7: is it that I wanted to be, you know, I

801
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:43,920
Speaker 7: didn't I don't know who I am as a person.

802
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:45,799
Speaker 7: You know, a lot of the women that I meet

803
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:47,759
Speaker 7: through the club know who they are as a mother,

804
00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:50,960
Speaker 7: as they who they are as a wife, who they

805
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:54,080
Speaker 7: are as a student. But when all that was taken

806
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,200
Speaker 7: away during the pandemic, they couldn't they couldn't define themselves

807
00:43:58,480 --> 00:43:59,279
Speaker 7: for themselves.

808
00:43:59,760 --> 00:44:02,040
Speaker 4: And that was definitely a common thing that.

809
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:06,800
Speaker 7: Created honesty the experience, especially on Thursday group.

810
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 4: I know, folks think that I know.

811
00:44:09,440 --> 00:44:13,239
Speaker 7: There's this misconception that SBGC all we do is talk

812
00:44:13,280 --> 00:44:15,680
Speaker 7: about race. I'm done talking about race. I'm gonna be

813
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:17,880
Speaker 7: very honest. You know, I stopped doing a lot of

814
00:44:17,920 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 7: interviews and podcasts about race and recovery realm because I'm tired.

815
00:44:21,960 --> 00:44:24,920
Speaker 7: I want to help women, I want to help myself,

816
00:44:25,320 --> 00:44:28,960
Speaker 7: get back to the basics and literally find out what

817
00:44:29,239 --> 00:44:33,880
Speaker 7: makes us us as individuals, and then use that information

818
00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:37,040
Speaker 7: in a community, collective forward way.

819
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:41,279
Speaker 4: That is really the goal of SBGC. I'm so I'm

820
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 4: really tired of.

821
00:44:43,960 --> 00:44:46,560
Speaker 7: The race talk, and not because it's not necessary or

822
00:44:46,719 --> 00:44:50,720
Speaker 7: needed or because it's not true, because I don't think.

823
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:51,439
Speaker 4: It helps black women.

824
00:44:51,680 --> 00:44:54,600
Speaker 7: I think it helps the society as a whole try

825
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 7: to understand race relations.

826
00:44:56,800 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 4: But again, why is that on the back of black women.

827
00:44:59,600 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 4: It just it was like.

828
00:45:00,520 --> 00:45:03,960
Speaker 7: Everything when it comes to community, especially the black community,

829
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 7: is on for the black women. You know, even when

830
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 7: I created a s PGC, I had men telling me

831
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 7: that I needed to create one for them, because the

832
00:45:12,040 --> 00:45:14,880
Speaker 7: truth is, I think that the black men's plight is

833
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:21,640
Speaker 7: its specific plate. However, patriarchy has been a you know,

834
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 7: a theme in my trauma. I'm not creating anything for you.

835
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:26,440
Speaker 7: You have to do it yourself. I can help you,

836
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,359
Speaker 7: but that's not something I'm trying to take on. I'm

837
00:45:29,360 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 7: actually trying to learn how to not take on other

838
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 7: people's problems and focus on myself as an individual, because

839
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 7: when I focus on myself, I'm focusing.

840
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:38,520
Speaker 4: And helping my community.

841
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:42,879
Speaker 7: And I also think it's important to note that black

842
00:45:42,920 --> 00:45:46,320
Speaker 7: people do not have a long history of mental health treatment.

843
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 7: Like you know, for a long time, we were seen

844
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:53,800
Speaker 7: as objects. And it's crazy to me that I found

845
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 7: out that even in the eighteen hundreds, when this nation

846
00:45:57,800 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 7: was going through the Tempest movement, when this nation had

847
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 7: decided that alcohol was negatively affecting the society, that they

848
00:46:05,760 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 7: purposefully left black people out. Racism is prevalent in every

849
00:46:10,360 --> 00:46:15,200
Speaker 7: aspect of this nation, including recovery, and it's embarrassing and

850
00:46:15,480 --> 00:46:20,680
Speaker 7: wrong for anyone to think that all recovery is equal.

851
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,400
Speaker 7: Even when I went to rehab, and I did go

852
00:46:23,520 --> 00:46:26,239
Speaker 7: to rehab, it was my first time there and a

853
00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:27,960
Speaker 7: lot of this and I was the only black person

854
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,399
Speaker 7: there and a lot of them this was their third

855
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 7: fourth time. And is that judgment no, because I think

856
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:35,440
Speaker 7: I think most people do need a second time to

857
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:36,640
Speaker 7: go to rehab. The first time, you don't know what

858
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 7: you're doing.

859
00:46:37,239 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 5: Yeah, statistically, yeah, that's that's true. Most people have to

860
00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:42,920
Speaker 5: try several times. It's I think this an amateur three

861
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:44,840
Speaker 5: or four or five attempts before you get sober.

862
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 7: Yeah, and in rehab, you know, constantly hearing about families

863
00:46:49,160 --> 00:46:54,279
Speaker 7: who had say, similar issues, families of getting treatment and

864
00:46:55,040 --> 00:46:57,360
Speaker 7: figuring out recovery and being in recovery.

865
00:46:57,840 --> 00:46:59,839
Speaker 4: That's not a clipical to black folks.

866
00:47:00,200 --> 00:47:03,839
Speaker 7: Really, this generation, the millennials, are finally saying enough is enough.

867
00:47:04,000 --> 00:47:06,719
Speaker 7: We're getting back into nature where fis, We're taking care

868
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 7: of our mental health. We're trying to understand our parents

869
00:47:10,320 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 7: problems because they didn't take care of their mental health.

870
00:47:14,680 --> 00:47:16,520
Speaker 4: They had their own issues.

871
00:47:17,120 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 7: That involved their race, that involved their gender and their

872
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 7: sexual oritation, and that looked totally different. So our meetings

873
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 7: provide us connection. We have to make connection to all

874
00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 7: these points. It's not enough to say I have a

875
00:47:31,680 --> 00:47:34,080
Speaker 7: drinking problem and I need to find myself. I need

876
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 7: to understand that. Why after I went to college, I

877
00:47:37,640 --> 00:47:40,719
Speaker 7: did gymnastics, you know, told me you know, you know,

878
00:47:41,120 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 7: I did that, homosexuality, I dated a man, I went

879
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 7: to law school. Why am I still miserable after doing

880
00:47:48,120 --> 00:47:48,800
Speaker 7: all these things?

881
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:49,959
Speaker 4: And why?

882
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:55,600
Speaker 7: Because I kept them putting my self worth into tangible items.

883
00:47:55,880 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 4: I kept them putting it, I kept them listening to

884
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:00,760
Speaker 4: what people told me to do. Who are these people?

885
00:48:01,080 --> 00:48:05,280
Speaker 4: Who did my parents want me to listen to white folks.

886
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 4: That's something that we all try to please.

887
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 7: We try to not be that that, you know, we try,

888
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:12,799
Speaker 7: we live our lives, try not to be that one

889
00:48:12,920 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 7: that black person. We want to be trophies. We want

890
00:48:15,600 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 7: people to know that we're trying so hard and we're

891
00:48:17,560 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 7: trying to do. That's pressure and that does affect and

892
00:48:20,960 --> 00:48:24,000
Speaker 7: contribute to our self esteem and how I see myself.

893
00:48:24,280 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 7: I'm happy that I went to law school. I do

894
00:48:26,960 --> 00:48:30,440
Speaker 7: like luxury things. I do like to have money. However,

895
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 7: I want to be okay with just being Katie, even

896
00:48:33,360 --> 00:48:36,120
Speaker 7: with those things. I don't want my worth to be

897
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,880
Speaker 7: based on those on those things. So I feel like

898
00:48:39,360 --> 00:48:43,640
Speaker 7: our meetings are it's not only about getting to know

899
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 7: who we are. It's really understanding our history. It's it's

900
00:48:48,760 --> 00:48:53,800
Speaker 7: knowing that slaves did have were, you know, given alcohol

901
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:58,320
Speaker 7: to keep them domicile. It's knowing that for the Tempest movement,

902
00:48:58,400 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 7: black people were not a part of it. They had

903
00:48:59,920 --> 00:49:02,399
Speaker 7: to make their own type of movement, you know. It's

904
00:49:02,480 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 7: it's knowing what the society and what the racism and

905
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,239
Speaker 7: sexism and and you know, even as a queer person,

906
00:49:09,360 --> 00:49:12,239
Speaker 7: homophobia that I grew up so homophobic, and I grew

907
00:49:12,360 --> 00:49:16,320
Speaker 7: up very anti black, even myself perpetuating these these.

908
00:49:16,239 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 4: Things and not even knowing and understanding it.

909
00:49:19,239 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 7: How do theseisms play a role and how I see

910
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:25,400
Speaker 7: myself and other people.

911
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,399
Speaker 1: Emily talk about Sober Mom Squad, which you started during

912
00:49:32,480 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 1: the pandemic. Was this to fill the need that you

913
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 1: felt wasn't there when you were googling? Am I an alcoholic?

914
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 4: Yeah?

915
00:49:40,760 --> 00:49:42,440
Speaker 3: I mean it was a couple of things. So I

916
00:49:42,640 --> 00:49:45,439
Speaker 3: was working as a as a recovery coach at the time,

917
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 3: and I was working really one on one with women

918
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,600
Speaker 3: who who had similar stories to me, who you know,

919
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:54,960
Speaker 3: really tried to control it for a really long time

920
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,160
Speaker 3: and then hit rock bottom and they were either they're

921
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: you know, coming out of rehab, going to AA, you know,

922
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: really just to supplement you know, people's other recovery modalities.

923
00:50:06,960 --> 00:50:08,440
Speaker 3: And once you know it is just a couple of

924
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:10,480
Speaker 3: weeks in the pandemic and all the kids were home,

925
00:50:10,760 --> 00:50:14,200
Speaker 3: I started getting messages from moms saying, you know, I

926
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 3: never questioned my drinking before, and now I'm drinking a

927
00:50:17,760 --> 00:50:20,799
Speaker 3: lot more and it's scaring me or my kids are

928
00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 3: noticing me drink now and I don't know how you know,

929
00:50:25,320 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 3: that line of demarcation from coming home from work and

930
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:29,919
Speaker 3: having that quiet time in the car, like you don't

931
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,719
Speaker 3: have any downtime. So women were using alcohol really as

932
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 3: again as a coping mechanism, and you know, hey, can

933
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:40,240
Speaker 3: can you help? Can you work with me? And meanwhile,

934
00:50:40,280 --> 00:50:43,160
Speaker 3: I'm home also working with my five kids with no

935
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,200
Speaker 3: extra time, wondering what the heck I'm going to do?

936
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:48,160
Speaker 3: And so I just honestly put out a call to

937
00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 3: action on on social media, you know, and said, is

938
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:54,239
Speaker 3: this with other you know, recovery coaches, counselors, is this

939
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,560
Speaker 3: what you're seeing? Does anyone want to help do something?

940
00:50:58,400 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 3: And you know a few other women in the recovery

941
00:51:02,600 --> 00:51:04,839
Speaker 3: space we're like, yeah, i'll help, I'll help, I'll help.

942
00:51:04,880 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 3: And we started having just a free meeting every Wednesday,

943
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,279
Speaker 3: and the only requirements were, you know, if your mom

944
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 3: and you're questioning your use of alcohol, or if you're

945
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,320
Speaker 3: just a mom who doesn't want to be in the

946
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 3: sea of women telling you to go pour your quarantine,

947
00:51:20,560 --> 00:51:24,480
Speaker 3: or you know, all these wine messages were really strong

948
00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 3: at this point. You know it takes a god, what

949
00:51:28,040 --> 00:51:31,640
Speaker 3: was my favorite one? It takes a glass of wine

950
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 3: to have a kid, and it takes a vineyard to

951
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:36,640
Speaker 3: homeschool one or something like all of these messages.

952
00:51:37,680 --> 00:51:40,719
Speaker 1: And also, you know, Elizabeth was mentioning the other day

953
00:51:40,840 --> 00:51:42,920
Speaker 1: like what businesses were thriving.

954
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:44,520
Speaker 5: It's like, we're still open.

955
00:51:44,600 --> 00:51:46,880
Speaker 1: It was the grocery store, the drug store, and the

956
00:51:46,960 --> 00:51:50,279
Speaker 1: liquor store. Yeah, and everyone knows the essential service. I'm

957
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 1: almost sort of laughing about that, but it's a it's

958
00:51:52,920 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: a big red flag.

959
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:54,279
Speaker 5: Isn't it.

960
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 9: Yeah.

961
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,560
Speaker 3: Well, and the biggest growth in twenty twenty and alcohol

962
00:51:57,640 --> 00:52:01,799
Speaker 3: was single served drinks because because it was easily accessible,

963
00:52:02,000 --> 00:52:04,839
Speaker 3: and if you're at the pharmacy and you're getting your

964
00:52:04,920 --> 00:52:07,239
Speaker 3: bleach and your hand sanitizer and all the other things

965
00:52:07,280 --> 00:52:09,960
Speaker 3: that were sold out near at the checkout line, that

966
00:52:10,120 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 3: little can looks really benign. It looks like it's like, oh,

967
00:52:13,800 --> 00:52:16,720
Speaker 3: no big deal, it's right here. It's super safe. And meanwhile,

968
00:52:16,800 --> 00:52:20,120
Speaker 3: it's like two and a half servings of alcohol and

969
00:52:20,239 --> 00:52:22,880
Speaker 3: it's just as easy to throw down as a you know,

970
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:27,600
Speaker 3: sparkling water. So even if I'm questioning my use, it's

971
00:52:27,719 --> 00:52:33,360
Speaker 3: being delivered to me. So easily, So you know this,

972
00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 3: these were the messages that I was hearing, and so yeah,

973
00:52:36,920 --> 00:52:40,399
Speaker 3: we started meeting every Wednesday, and then it just kept

974
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:43,799
Speaker 3: growing and growing and growing, and women were like, hey,

975
00:52:43,840 --> 00:52:46,800
Speaker 3: can we do more of these? And so I just

976
00:52:46,920 --> 00:52:50,239
Speaker 3: kind of went with what women were asking for. They

977
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:52,880
Speaker 3: wanted to have more meetings, they wanted to have you know,

978
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 3: coaching available, they wanted to have a place to connect.

979
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 3: And you know, women's communities are nothing new on line.

980
00:53:00,400 --> 00:53:02,839
Speaker 3: I have friends who I met in a I think

981
00:53:02,880 --> 00:53:04,680
Speaker 3: it was a baby center or something. I was in

982
00:53:04,680 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 3: an online group when my seventeen year old was when

983
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:10,120
Speaker 3: I was pregnant with him, and we're still friends. And

984
00:53:10,239 --> 00:53:14,560
Speaker 3: so it really is just a place. It's a community

985
00:53:14,920 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 3: where you can talk about anything from you know, how

986
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 3: you know your baby sleeping through the night, or a

987
00:53:21,360 --> 00:53:23,560
Speaker 3: you know, better Wi Fi connection with all these kids

988
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:27,160
Speaker 3: doing school from home, and it just is there's no

989
00:53:27,360 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 3: wine mom messaging around it. Nobody is going to tell

990
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 3: you to go just pour a glass of wine. So

991
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 3: our members really are anybody from women who just don't

992
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:39,800
Speaker 3: drink just because they don't or it's never been a

993
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:42,240
Speaker 3: thing for them. They just want to avoid all that messaging,

994
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:46,000
Speaker 3: and then the whole other side of the spectrum, women

995
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 3: who really are questioning their drinking, sober curious, and women

996
00:53:48,600 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 3: who've been in recovery or are currently in recovery. So

997
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:58,399
Speaker 3: it's just really a community for moms who don't want

998
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,640
Speaker 3: to be in that sea of wine mom marketing.

999
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: Sober Mom Squad, I know, is membership based, right, And

1000
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:11,640
Speaker 1: it's not unlike Tempest, the Naked Mind and some other

1001
00:54:11,920 --> 00:54:15,080
Speaker 1: organizations that have popped up emily. You have to pay

1002
00:54:15,120 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: a fee to be a part of this community. And

1003
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 1: I'm curious why you decided to go for that model,

1004
00:54:22,040 --> 00:54:26,120
Speaker 1: and are you worried about creating a barrier for women

1005
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:27,880
Speaker 1: who may not be able to afford it.

1006
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:28,520
Speaker 9: Yeah?

1007
00:54:28,680 --> 00:54:30,759
Speaker 3: Sure, and this is a question that comes up a lot.

1008
00:54:30,840 --> 00:54:34,000
Speaker 3: And you know when you have paid for recovery groups, right,

1009
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:36,600
Speaker 3: And first thing is we started as a free group,

1010
00:54:36,640 --> 00:54:38,480
Speaker 3: and we still have a free meeting every Wednesday. We

1011
00:54:38,560 --> 00:54:40,319
Speaker 3: have a free Facebook group. We have a free meeting

1012
00:54:40,400 --> 00:54:45,920
Speaker 3: every single Wednesday. And the reason that you know, I

1013
00:54:46,200 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 3: grew the community was really because women were asking for it,

1014
00:54:49,280 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 3: like we want more of these meetings, we want group coaching,

1015
00:54:52,840 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 3: we want to have different you know, we like have

1016
00:54:56,120 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 3: EFT tapping, and we have writing for recovery, and I

1017
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,799
Speaker 3: I also value you know, what women put into their work,

1018
00:55:03,880 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 3: and so for recovery coaches, counselors, you know, for my

1019
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,240
Speaker 3: writing expert, like I pay them. And so our membership

1020
00:55:12,320 --> 00:55:15,759
Speaker 3: really goes to pay for the community and for the

1021
00:55:15,800 --> 00:55:18,360
Speaker 3: people who are doing work in the community. And because

1022
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:21,560
Speaker 3: we charge, you know, a fee for membership, we do

1023
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:26,680
Speaker 3: offer scholarships to literally anybody who asks. So it's really

1024
00:55:27,280 --> 00:55:30,640
Speaker 3: come about. And I think, you know, there are so

1025
00:55:30,760 --> 00:55:33,640
Speaker 3: many free things out there, and I think if that

1026
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:36,160
Speaker 3: works for you, that's awesome. And I, you know, I'm

1027
00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:38,560
Speaker 3: a person who still goes to AA, so like, I

1028
00:55:38,719 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 3: see the value in that. But there are people who

1029
00:55:42,360 --> 00:55:46,000
Speaker 3: want other things, and I don't think it's out of

1030
00:55:46,040 --> 00:55:49,120
Speaker 3: the question to, uh, you know, pay people for their work.

1031
00:55:49,600 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 1: What would you tell moms listening to this right now, Emily,

1032
00:55:53,760 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 1: who are kind of on the precipice of thinking this

1033
00:56:00,920 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: is taking too much space in my life, or this

1034
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:10,160
Speaker 1: is becoming too important, or I just don't want to

1035
00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 1: get to the point where you know you were honestly,

1036
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:19,840
Speaker 1: or where Elizabeth was, or if I am there, what

1037
00:56:19,960 --> 00:56:20,799
Speaker 1: do I do next?

1038
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:21,919
Speaker 9: Yeah.

1039
00:56:22,560 --> 00:56:24,840
Speaker 3: So the first thing I always say is, you know,

1040
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,200
Speaker 3: it's not your fault for getting addicted to an addictive substance,

1041
00:56:29,320 --> 00:56:32,200
Speaker 3: So to take that whole piece of shame out or

1042
00:56:32,600 --> 00:56:36,480
Speaker 3: you know, we would never question our use of any

1043
00:56:36,520 --> 00:56:39,880
Speaker 3: other addictive substance. We just say, oh wow, I'm questioning this.

1044
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,680
Speaker 3: I'm going to stop using this. So that's the first

1045
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:44,279
Speaker 3: thing I say is it's not your fault for becoming

1046
00:56:44,320 --> 00:56:47,600
Speaker 3: addicted to an addictive substance. And also, like your rock

1047
00:56:47,640 --> 00:56:49,840
Speaker 3: bottom is where you stop digging. You do not have

1048
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:53,120
Speaker 3: to fit any of the checklists. You don't have to

1049
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:57,640
Speaker 3: match anyone else's story. It doesn't have to get bad

1050
00:56:57,800 --> 00:57:02,200
Speaker 3: before you stop and look at what good do you want?

1051
00:57:02,280 --> 00:57:05,000
Speaker 3: Instead of what are the bad things you want to avoid?

1052
00:57:05,080 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 3: If that makes sense, you know, because it's a different

1053
00:57:07,160 --> 00:57:09,960
Speaker 3: even though you're saying the same thing. It's like, ugh,

1054
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 3: I don't want to be hung over every day, or

1055
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 3: you know, I want to wake up clear headed every day.

1056
00:57:15,040 --> 00:57:17,880
Speaker 3: You're saying the same thing, but it's just flipping the

1057
00:57:17,920 --> 00:57:19,880
Speaker 3: script on what do I want? You know, I want

1058
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 3: to be more present for my kids. I want to

1059
00:57:22,760 --> 00:57:26,040
Speaker 3: remember my date nights, I want to you know, whatever

1060
00:57:26,160 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 3: it is. It's like, what do you actually want? And

1061
00:57:28,000 --> 00:57:30,520
Speaker 3: how much better could your life be if you didn't

1062
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:34,480
Speaker 3: have this substance that was running the show. And I

1063
00:57:34,560 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 3: think we also underestimate how much mental work it takes

1064
00:57:41,120 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 3: to try and control this substance. I know for me,

1065
00:57:46,200 --> 00:57:48,840
Speaker 3: it was a huge amount of mental freedom once I

1066
00:57:48,960 --> 00:57:51,760
Speaker 3: was just like, oh, I don't have to do that anymore, Like, Wow,

1067
00:57:52,080 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 3: I don't have to try and make all these rules

1068
00:57:56,280 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 3: and do all these things to try and make this

1069
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:00,600
Speaker 3: fit in my life, Like this is something I have

1070
00:58:00,760 --> 00:58:04,080
Speaker 3: to do. When you recognize that it's a choice and

1071
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:08,080
Speaker 3: not a requirement as an adult, it's there's a lot

1072
00:58:08,160 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: of freedom there just looking at you know, how good

1073
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:14,439
Speaker 3: could your life be if this wasn't running the show?

1074
00:58:16,360 --> 00:58:18,280
Speaker 5: I love what you just said about you're not It's

1075
00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:21,000
Speaker 5: not your fault. You became addicted to an addictive substance.

1076
00:58:21,080 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 5: I've never heard that. That's fantastic.

1077
00:58:23,840 --> 00:58:26,760
Speaker 3: Well, and think about cigarettes. You would never say to somebody,

1078
00:58:27,400 --> 00:58:28,760
Speaker 3: are you sure you don't want to just have one

1079
00:58:28,840 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 3: or two? Just just don't smoke the whole pack and

1080
00:58:31,760 --> 00:58:34,680
Speaker 3: just have We never we don't expect anyone to moderate

1081
00:58:35,120 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 3: any other drug, but it's really again, it's that kind

1082
00:58:39,880 --> 00:58:43,360
Speaker 3: of that double standard of we do expect people to

1083
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:46,280
Speaker 3: be able to have control over something that's addictive. When

1084
00:58:46,320 --> 00:58:49,080
Speaker 3: you think about it, it's just something I never thought

1085
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 3: of until again, I was free from it.

1086
00:58:52,840 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: Before we move on once again, here's doctor Don Sugarman

1087
00:58:56,360 --> 00:58:59,800
Speaker 1: to explain what alcohol does to the brain and how

1088
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,440
Speaker 1: sobriety can help it recover.

1089
00:59:04,360 --> 00:59:07,040
Speaker 8: So alcohol is what we would call it anxiolytic.

1090
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:10,560
Speaker 2: People will notice that in the short term when they

1091
00:59:10,760 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 2: take a sip of alcohol that they feel immediately relaxed.

1092
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:19,080
Speaker 2: The problem is that in the long term it increases anxiety,

1093
00:59:19,320 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 2: so it becomes this crutch for people that's not a

1094
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:26,640
Speaker 2: very effective coping tool for anxiety. And in the brain,

1095
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 2: what happens is that alcohol is a depressant. It suppresses

1096
00:59:30,400 --> 00:59:35,600
Speaker 2: the central nervous system, so it slows down those systems,

1097
00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:37,720
Speaker 2: which is again why you're feeling more relaxed.

1098
00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,080
Speaker 8: But when alcohol starts to leave your.

1099
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:42,160
Speaker 2: Body, when you start to go through sort of what's

1100
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:46,040
Speaker 2: called alcohol withdrawal, then those systems ramp back up, and

1101
00:59:46,160 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 2: that's when you get the increased anxiety. I think the

1102
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 2: other way that it increases anxiety is that you become

1103
00:59:54,360 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 2: reliant on that as a way to cope when you're

1104
00:59:57,880 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 2: anxious and so and your in situations where you're unable

1105
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 2: to drink alcohol and you don't have that sort of crutch,

1106
01:00:05,240 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 2: then you become more and more anxious, and it becomes

1107
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 2: more of an anxiety about having a way to deal

1108
01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:12,920
Speaker 2: with your anxiety.

1109
01:00:13,160 --> 01:00:15,080
Speaker 8: That's not always effective.

1110
01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:19,280
Speaker 1: But as doctor Sugarman says, there is some good news.

1111
01:00:20,200 --> 01:00:25,760
Speaker 2: There are studies that show that the cognitive impairments related

1112
01:00:25,800 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 2: to drinking if you stop drinking within the year of abstinence,

1113
01:00:31,840 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 2: those do seem to reverse, with the exception of if

1114
01:00:34,960 --> 01:00:37,680
Speaker 2: you are really drinking at quite an extreme level where

1115
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:40,720
Speaker 2: there's sort of permanent damage, but for the most part,

1116
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:45,520
Speaker 2: stopping drinking will help improve your health and can reverse

1117
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:47,280
Speaker 2: some of those cognitive impairments.

1118
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: Elizabeth and I also spoke with doctor Louise Stanger. She's

1119
01:00:53,040 --> 01:00:57,160
Speaker 1: a clinical social worker and interventionists with more than thirty

1120
01:00:57,200 --> 01:01:00,560
Speaker 1: five years of experience in the world of substance abuse

1121
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:04,840
Speaker 1: and addiction. She told us how to approach people who

1122
01:01:04,920 --> 01:01:08,920
Speaker 1: may have a problem. What are the questions you ask people,

1123
01:01:09,080 --> 01:01:15,520
Speaker 1: Louise to determine if they've gone from having a healthy

1124
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:18,920
Speaker 1: relationship with alcohol or casual. I don't even know how

1125
01:01:19,000 --> 01:01:24,200
Speaker 1: to describe it to something that is really dangerous, damaging

1126
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:25,520
Speaker 1: and incapacitating.

1127
01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,120
Speaker 9: So when I'm doing a family matt where I would

1128
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:34,760
Speaker 9: ask you, Katie, first of all, you take a look

1129
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:38,800
Speaker 9: and you say, what's more important the event or the substance?

1130
01:01:38,960 --> 01:01:42,160
Speaker 9: So right now you and I are drinking coffee. But

1131
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:46,120
Speaker 9: let's say we go out to dinner. Right if that

1132
01:01:46,440 --> 01:01:51,320
Speaker 9: glass of wine is more important to you than the event,

1133
01:01:51,520 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 9: I'm going to know that because it's not going to

1134
01:01:53,640 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 9: be just one glass of wine, that's going to be

1135
01:01:55,520 --> 01:01:59,760
Speaker 9: two glasses. You ask people have there been any unintended

1136
01:02:00,000 --> 01:02:04,960
Speaker 9: consequences with you know, college studentsies can say, hey, did

1137
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 9: you ever wake up in someone else's dead? For example?

1138
01:02:08,160 --> 01:02:09,800
Speaker 9: Have you ever missed a class?

1139
01:02:10,560 --> 01:02:11,560
Speaker 5: Have you ever.

1140
01:02:13,120 --> 01:02:18,440
Speaker 9: Lied or cheated on anybody? Have you ever missed a class?

1141
01:02:19,520 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 9: Have you ever has anyone to bail you out? It's

1142
01:02:23,280 --> 01:02:25,520
Speaker 9: taking a look at what have you ever had a dui?

1143
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:30,240
Speaker 9: Have you ever been yet reprimanded.

1144
01:02:29,680 --> 01:02:30,560
Speaker 8: By your boss?

1145
01:02:31,400 --> 01:02:35,480
Speaker 9: Have you ever fallen asleep with your baby in your arms?

1146
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 9: There's all kinds of unintended consequences. Do you talk to

1147
01:02:40,880 --> 01:02:43,439
Speaker 9: your partner. If you have a partner, you know, what's

1148
01:02:43,520 --> 01:02:48,280
Speaker 9: your relationship with everybody? So you try and take a

1149
01:02:48,440 --> 01:02:51,080
Speaker 9: look and you ask people you know, on a scale

1150
01:02:51,080 --> 01:02:52,840
Speaker 9: of one to ten, how's this working for you?

1151
01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,120
Speaker 5: And then how do you convince them to take the net?

1152
01:02:56,280 --> 01:02:57,880
Speaker 5: You know, because a lot of people. First of all,

1153
01:02:58,320 --> 01:03:00,200
Speaker 5: there are a lot of people who have consequences like

1154
01:03:00,280 --> 01:03:02,640
Speaker 5: that after one bad night, like I have lots of

1155
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 5: you know, when I started telling my girlfriends that I

1156
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 5: had a problem with alcohol, they were like, no, you don't,

1157
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:11,600
Speaker 5: so and so does you know she's had all the

1158
01:03:11,640 --> 01:03:14,200
Speaker 5: consequences that we've seen you. We've never seen you do

1159
01:03:14,320 --> 01:03:17,840
Speaker 5: any of those things. And that's true. I didn't so

1160
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:20,600
Speaker 5: and for a large and I was able to stop

1161
01:03:20,680 --> 01:03:24,440
Speaker 5: drinking when I got pregnant, and so that gave me deniability.

1162
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:26,200
Speaker 5: I was like, I don't have a problem. I can

1163
01:03:26,280 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 5: control it. I have controlled it, and I haven't had

1164
01:03:28,880 --> 01:03:32,640
Speaker 5: all those dramatic negative consequences, at least not yet. And

1165
01:03:33,160 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 5: so how do you convince somebody to take the step

1166
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:38,400
Speaker 5: to get help when denial can be so strong, and

1167
01:03:39,080 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 5: you can point to so many other people and say, well,

1168
01:03:41,200 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 5: she's much worse than I am so.

1169
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:46,000
Speaker 9: First of all, I my word of recommendation is you

1170
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:48,360
Speaker 9: never go one on one with anybody who you believe

1171
01:03:48,480 --> 01:03:51,120
Speaker 9: is active in addiction. That is one of the most

1172
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:53,960
Speaker 9: full heartiest things in the world. So I'm really known

1173
01:03:54,520 --> 01:03:59,840
Speaker 9: for an invitational strategy or intervention, and an intervention is

1174
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:03,040
Speaker 9: nearly an invitation to change. But if you really want,

1175
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,680
Speaker 9: if you're really worried about someone, you want to do

1176
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:08,600
Speaker 9: a lot of backwork and do due diligence, and you

1177
01:04:08,680 --> 01:04:11,680
Speaker 9: want to be able to interview their friends, their family

1178
01:04:12,400 --> 01:04:17,320
Speaker 9: because individually, because if I and I don't If I,

1179
01:04:17,720 --> 01:04:21,200
Speaker 9: for example, wanted to learn about you, I might talk

1180
01:04:21,320 --> 01:04:24,080
Speaker 9: to your producer. I might talk to your husband, I

1181
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 9: might talk to your best friend, I might talk to

1182
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,520
Speaker 9: your mother. But somebody usually calls me and not you,

1183
01:04:30,840 --> 01:04:33,320
Speaker 9: because you're the identified loved one. If we use you

1184
01:04:34,080 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 9: whose heart is hurting, they bag, they pleaded, they nag,

1185
01:04:37,800 --> 01:04:40,919
Speaker 9: They they don't know what to do because they see

1186
01:04:41,640 --> 01:04:44,480
Speaker 9: with their eyes that someone is drowning.

1187
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 5: So how often how often does that person say, Okay,

1188
01:04:48,160 --> 01:04:50,560
Speaker 5: I'll get help, Like, what's what's the that?

1189
01:04:51,360 --> 01:04:54,040
Speaker 9: Well, for me, I've been very fortunate. I'm a ninety

1190
01:04:54,120 --> 01:04:57,600
Speaker 9: seven percent success but I don't show up and just

1191
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:00,560
Speaker 9: say hi, I guess what. It takes a long of work.

1192
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 9: So when we're we're with a family, I do do

1193
01:05:04,160 --> 01:05:07,120
Speaker 9: the family map. It takes me twenty to thirty hours

1194
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:12,040
Speaker 9: of backwork before I would ever stage or invite you

1195
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:15,720
Speaker 9: to change the way I see an intervention, it's collective

1196
01:05:16,160 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 9: in the respect that it takes a village to move someone.

1197
01:05:19,040 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 9: Recovery in and of itself is connection. It takes a village.

1198
01:05:22,720 --> 01:05:27,000
Speaker 9: It is an intervention in that we intend to invite

1199
01:05:27,120 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 9: or seek someone or motivate them to change, and we

1200
01:05:30,680 --> 01:05:37,080
Speaker 9: create a positive crisis in which there's an opportunity for

1201
01:05:37,360 --> 01:05:39,840
Speaker 9: you to understand that this is coming from a place

1202
01:05:39,880 --> 01:05:43,440
Speaker 9: of love, this is coming from a place of hope,

1203
01:05:44,000 --> 01:05:46,360
Speaker 9: and that there is a solution, and people will walk

1204
01:05:46,520 --> 01:05:51,440
Speaker 9: with you. The strategy is you've got to be very flexible.

1205
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 9: But you don't just walk into someone and you say, oh, hi,

1206
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:57,640
Speaker 9: you've been drinking, you need to go, or you don't

1207
01:05:57,720 --> 01:06:00,880
Speaker 9: do it in a dismissive way, but try and learn

1208
01:06:01,760 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 9: everything you can about that person and then help other

1209
01:06:05,800 --> 01:06:09,840
Speaker 9: people speak from their heart. So when I talk about intervention,

1210
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,640
Speaker 9: I'm talking about heart hurt and hope. What have you

1211
01:06:13,800 --> 01:06:18,640
Speaker 9: experienced in the last couple months that our years have

1212
01:06:18,800 --> 01:06:22,480
Speaker 9: made your heart hurt? And what is your hope? And

1213
01:06:22,600 --> 01:06:25,960
Speaker 9: you can't do an intervention without having a solution in place.

1214
01:06:27,880 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 9: Whether it's with alcohol, I'm going to be clear, because

1215
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 9: it's both physiologically and psychologically. You need residential medical detoks.

1216
01:06:39,720 --> 01:06:42,400
Speaker 9: You just can't just go cold turkey on your own.

1217
01:06:42,760 --> 01:06:45,720
Speaker 9: You stand too much of a risk for a seizure

1218
01:06:46,240 --> 01:06:49,760
Speaker 9: for some other problems. So it would be foolhardy to say.

1219
01:06:49,760 --> 01:06:53,000
Speaker 5: Just stop now. You can die. You can die from alcohol.

1220
01:06:53,000 --> 01:06:56,680
Speaker 5: I have a friend. I have a friend who son died,

1221
01:06:57,840 --> 01:06:58,040
Speaker 5: So you.

1222
01:06:58,400 --> 01:07:00,600
Speaker 9: Have to really understand what you're doing.

1223
01:07:01,080 --> 01:07:03,520
Speaker 5: People don't realize how dangerous that is. I mean coming

1224
01:07:03,600 --> 01:07:06,280
Speaker 5: off of heroin, being dope sick. You'll feel like you

1225
01:07:06,400 --> 01:07:09,880
Speaker 5: want to die, but you won't actually die. People die

1226
01:07:09,960 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 5: from alcohol withdrawal absolutely.

1227
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,400
Speaker 9: And also you have to with the family that you're

1228
01:07:15,480 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 9: working with, give them three great treatment solutions. I'm not

1229
01:07:20,640 --> 01:07:23,600
Speaker 9: related to any behavioral healthcare center in the world. I've

1230
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:26,439
Speaker 9: had the good fortune of training or teaching it many

1231
01:07:26,520 --> 01:07:29,440
Speaker 9: of them and working with many of them. Just based

1232
01:07:29,520 --> 01:07:34,840
Speaker 9: on you know, my reputation or my ability to do

1233
01:07:35,000 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 9: good work.

1234
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:40,040
Speaker 1: Well, you know, just to wrap things up, I hope

1235
01:07:40,080 --> 01:07:46,080
Speaker 1: that all these people, and we're talking about women more specifically,

1236
01:07:46,320 --> 01:07:51,600
Speaker 1: but anyone who has a substance abuse issue that's developed

1237
01:07:51,680 --> 01:07:57,800
Speaker 1: during the pandemic will get help. Because the numbers are frightening.

1238
01:07:58,680 --> 01:08:04,040
Speaker 9: They are they're absolutely astronomical. We are a country in

1239
01:08:04,280 --> 01:08:10,160
Speaker 9: crisis and our mental health, our anxiety is at an

1240
01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:14,320
Speaker 9: all time high. We have we're being fueled by the

1241
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:20,160
Speaker 9: alcohol industry, the marijuana industry, the pill industry, and what

1242
01:08:20,360 --> 01:08:22,840
Speaker 9: we need to do is help rewrite the fabric. But

1243
01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 9: for women, especially because this is dedicated to women, I

1244
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:30,759
Speaker 9: want them to know there's always hope, there's always a solution,

1245
01:08:31,320 --> 01:08:34,800
Speaker 9: that you're not alone, that you're not crazy, that you

1246
01:08:34,880 --> 01:08:38,639
Speaker 9: feel it's awful to be inside in zoom land, it's

1247
01:08:38,800 --> 01:08:43,040
Speaker 9: not awful to be scared that your child is not thriving,

1248
01:08:44,760 --> 01:08:46,720
Speaker 9: That there is help available.

1249
01:08:48,160 --> 01:08:52,120
Speaker 1: Help is available if you or anyone you know is

1250
01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:55,600
Speaker 1: struggling with alcohol use. You can start by calling the

1251
01:08:55,680 --> 01:08:59,519
Speaker 1: National Drug and Alcohol Treatment Hotline at one eight hundred

1252
01:09:00,479 --> 01:09:04,040
Speaker 1: two help. That's one eight hundred sixty six to two

1253
01:09:04,640 --> 01:09:07,720
Speaker 1: four three five seven, and you know what. You can

1254
01:09:07,760 --> 01:09:10,960
Speaker 1: also check out the groups we discussed, like the Sober

1255
01:09:11,040 --> 01:09:15,240
Speaker 1: Black Girls Club, the Sober Mom Squad, and Alcoholics Anonymous.

1256
01:09:15,360 --> 01:09:18,720
Speaker 1: Of course, we'll have links and more information in the

1257
01:09:18,840 --> 01:09:22,120
Speaker 1: description of this podcast. A big thank you, by the

1258
01:09:22,200 --> 01:09:25,360
Speaker 1: way to my co host, Elizabeth Bargas, who I've known

1259
01:09:25,479 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: for many, many years and I so admire how she

1260
01:09:29,439 --> 01:09:32,400
Speaker 1: has not only dealt with her issues but shared her

1261
01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:36,360
Speaker 1: story to help other people. Go check out her memoir

1262
01:09:36,600 --> 01:09:40,280
Speaker 1: it's called Between Breaths. And also she's got a great

1263
01:09:40,400 --> 01:09:43,280
Speaker 1: podcast where she talks to lots of different people in

1264
01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:47,360
Speaker 1: the alcohol and addiction space. That podcast is called Heart

1265
01:09:47,400 --> 01:09:55,400
Speaker 1: of the Matter. Next Question with Katie Kirk is a

1266
01:09:55,439 --> 01:09:59,720
Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia and Katie Kirk Media. The executive producers

1267
01:09:59,760 --> 01:10:03,879
Speaker 1: are Me, Katie Kuric, and Courtney Ltz. The supervising producer

1268
01:10:03,960 --> 01:10:08,839
Speaker 1: is Lauren Hanson. Associate producers Derek Clements and Adriana Fazzio.

1269
01:10:09,160 --> 01:10:12,560
Speaker 1: The show is edited and mixed by Derek Clements. For

1270
01:10:12,680 --> 01:10:15,479
Speaker 1: more information about today's episode, or to sign up for

1271
01:10:15,600 --> 01:10:19,439
Speaker 1: my morning newsletter, Wakeupcall, go to Katiecuric dot com. You

1272
01:10:19,520 --> 01:10:22,519
Speaker 1: can also find me at Katiekiric on Instagram and all

1273
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:27,200
Speaker 1: my social media channels. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit

1274
01:10:27,280 --> 01:10:31,160
Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

1275
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:32,240
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.