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Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Sound On podcast. Catch us

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Speaker 1: live weekdays at one Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the

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Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen on

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Speaker 1: demand wherever you get your podcasts. Welcome to the Tuesday

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Speaker 1: edition of Bloomberg Sound On. I'm Joe Matthew in Washington.

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Speaker 1: Two hours to go here until Donald Trump's court appearance

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Speaker 1: in Miami. Only two hours left. Police say they're prepared

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Speaker 1: for crowds of up to fifty thousand people. Security is

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Speaker 1: obviously tight. Certainly you would expect that to be the case,

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Speaker 1: particularly after Donald Trump posted on social media, see you

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Speaker 1: in Miami now. A lot of lawmakers have been weighing

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Speaker 1: in on this. Senator Lindsay Graham included the Republicans. Speaking

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Speaker 1: earlier with reporters, says, there is no place for violence here.

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Speaker 2: There's no violent solution to this problem. We have a

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Speaker 2: legal system. He will be represented, there will be appeals,

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Speaker 2: This will go all the way to Supreme Court. There's

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Speaker 2: a belief on the Republican side that the law doesn't

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Speaker 2: apply equally to Republicans and Democrats. But there's no reason

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Speaker 2: to engage in violent activity.

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Speaker 1: And I want to pick up this conversation with a

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Speaker 1: real expert. Michael Zelden is back to talk to us today,

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Speaker 1: the former federal prosecutor, former special counsel to Robert Maller

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Speaker 1: while at DOJ. Michael, it's it's great to have you

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Speaker 1: here on this historic day. We were just talking with

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Speaker 1: Kaylee about the way this will proceed, and I realized

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Speaker 1: that this is relatively brief what's going to happen here today,

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Speaker 1: but it is historic. Are we going to see a

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Speaker 1: mug shot of this president or that will not happen

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Speaker 1: as well, because it's federal court.

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Speaker 3: It will not happen because he's the former president of

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Speaker 3: the United States. Got a federal court, you could get

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Speaker 3: a mug shot too, but they won't do that. In

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Speaker 3: the case of the former president. Everyone knows what he

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Speaker 3: looks like.

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Speaker 1: So when we say booking, Michael, what actually is going to.

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Speaker 3: Happen, Well, they will sign him in, they'll probably take

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Speaker 3: his singer prints, although that two probably isn't necessary, and

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Speaker 3: they will then do the administrative paperwork that they send

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Speaker 3: up to the judge, the mad straight judge in this case,

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Speaker 3: who will then either do a presentment or an arrangement,

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Speaker 3: and we're not sure yet which it will be.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and then the arraignment takes place, he's whisked out,

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Speaker 1: presumably from the same private driveway, and he's back in

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Speaker 1: his club a free man a short time later. That's

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Speaker 1: what you see.

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Speaker 3: Well, whether it's a short time or not, it depends

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Speaker 3: on the weather. I was a prosecutor in the Southern

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Speaker 3: District of Florida for a number of years. In the afternoons,

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Speaker 3: thunderstorms at this time of year ground planes to a

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Speaker 3: halt often, So he'll get back. I just don't know

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Speaker 3: whether it'll be quickly.

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Speaker 1: But that'll be the end of the business for today. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: he's got a speech set for tonight and he's going

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Speaker 1: to be talking to the media. Do we get a

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Speaker 1: trial date? Do we expect that much information today?

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Speaker 3: I think we'll get a Well, let's say one thing.

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Speaker 3: We're assuming in this conversation that there is an arraignment.

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Speaker 3: That is, he's going to enter a plea of not

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Speaker 3: guilty with an attorney of record. If he doesn't have

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Speaker 3: an attorney of record who's going to stay through the

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Speaker 3: duration of the case, it'll just be a presentment where

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Speaker 3: he'll say thank you very much for inviting me here.

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Speaker 3: And when I get a lawyer, I'll come back and

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Speaker 3: enter my plea. If the lawyers that are with him

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Speaker 3: are going to be entering official appearances, then they'll have

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Speaker 3: an arraignment. He'll plead not guilty. He'll get back in

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Speaker 3: his suv and head to the airport. If it's a presentment,

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Speaker 3: then there's a delay and you may have to come

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Speaker 3: back again for his guilty.

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Speaker 1: Please, so the word is According to the Washington Post

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Speaker 1: and other sources, Bloomberg has had its own reporting that

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Speaker 1: the former president has been scrambling to identify a season

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Speaker 1: Florida trial a lawyer actually willing to take this case.

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Speaker 1: What goes into that calculation? I mean that sounds ridiculous,

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Speaker 1: I think to the average listener here, Michael, because it's

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump, he's got a lot of money, This is

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Speaker 1: high profile of I guess it could make your career,

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Speaker 1: but I suppose it could break your career as well.

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Speaker 1: Is he running out of lawyers to call?

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Speaker 3: Well, I think he's got a lot of lawyers to call.

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Speaker 3: The question is whether any lawyers will say yes. The

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Speaker 3: problem is that except for the two lawyers or actually three,

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Speaker 3: who represented him in the Mueller investigation. You did a

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Speaker 3: bang up job and left on very good terms and

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Speaker 3: professionally as one ends a normal case. Everybody else has

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Speaker 3: either ended up as a witness, or have been fired

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Speaker 3: or haven't been paid. And so the client is what

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Speaker 3: makes the case complicated for a lawyer. If you have

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Speaker 3: a client who won't listen to you, who you may

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Speaker 3: not get fully paid from, and who you might end

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Speaker 3: up being a witness, for the decision to take it

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Speaker 3: is not easy, even though it's the former president of

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Speaker 3: the United States and it's the sort of the case of

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Speaker 3: the decade at least, and most lawyers like that. So

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Speaker 3: very complicated because of who Trump is.

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Speaker 1: And we won't know till he shows up whether he's

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Speaker 1: actually got a trial lawyer of record.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's right. Could the two lawyers that he's got

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Speaker 3: now could inter official appearances and say we're their lawyers.

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Speaker 3: But if they get then a seasoned trial lawyer, because

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Speaker 3: these guys really aren't seasoned trial lawyers from Flora. If

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Speaker 3: they get that, then those guys could come in and

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Speaker 3: the other lawyers can ask to be relieved by So far, he's,

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Speaker 3: as the papers report, he's not getting a positive response from.

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Speaker 1: The Florida bar I want to just touch the baseline

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Speaker 1: for you on this indictment, because I haven't had the

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Speaker 1: opportunity yet, Michael Lin. We're hearing from lawmakers who have

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Speaker 1: a lot to say about this on both sides of

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Speaker 1: the aisle. Here in Washington. We've got another renewed round

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Speaker 1: singing to us today here. The idea that we're hearing

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Speaker 1: from Republicans is that there is a double standard, that

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump is being held to a higher standard than,

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Speaker 1: for instance, Joe Biden or even Hillary Clinton, whose name

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Speaker 1: keeps coming up here. This is the Majority Leader Steve

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Speaker 1: Scalise speaking earlier today from the US House, and i'll

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Speaker 1: have your respond here.

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Speaker 4: He is I'm not an attorney, but I look at

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Speaker 4: the idea that justice is supposed to be blind and

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Speaker 4: just question and wonder is it being carried out fairly

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Speaker 4: When you have das in a state like New York

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Speaker 4: running on the idea that they're going to go after

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Speaker 4: a person, not that they're going to just follow the

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Speaker 4: facts wherever they lead, but they're just going to target individuals.

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Speaker 4: When the president's main opponent for his reelection seems to

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Speaker 4: be treated in a very different way.

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Speaker 1: Now. Of course, we've heard a lot about double standards

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Speaker 1: over the past couple of days. Here, Michael, with what

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Speaker 1: you know about the case. Should these charges have been

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Speaker 1: brought against the former president?

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Speaker 3: Yes. And let me say one thing, which is, if

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Speaker 3: you want to look for a comparison, probably the closest

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Speaker 3: comparison is that of Hillary Clinton. The Joe Biden case

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Speaker 3: is not at all comparable, and the Bragg case in

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Speaker 3: New York is wholly different than what the president is

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Speaker 3: being charged with in this federal indicting. What I wanted

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Speaker 3: to read to you is a paragraph, it's very short

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Speaker 3: from former FBI Director Comy on his decision not to

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Speaker 3: prosecute Hillary Clinton. He says that I quote in looking

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Speaker 3: back at our investigations, is the mishandling or removal of

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Speaker 3: classified documents. We cannot find a case that would support

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Speaker 3: bringing criminal charges on these facts. All the cases prosecuted

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Speaker 3: involve some combination of one clearly intentional and wilful mishandling

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Speaker 3: and classified documents or vast quantities of materials exposed in

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Speaker 3: such a way to support the inference of intentional misconduct

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Speaker 3: or indications of disloyalty to the United states or efforts

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Speaker 3: to obstruct the investigation. So that's why Comy said no,

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Speaker 3: here there's no case similar to Clinton's facts. Whereas, if

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Speaker 3: you read that statement again, intentional, wilful mishandling and efforts

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Speaker 3: to obstruct that is exactly what the prosecutors have charged

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Speaker 3: in the Trump case. So that's why the cases were brought.

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Speaker 3: And we'll see how the evidence comes in a trial

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Speaker 3: and whether he's exonerated or not.

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Speaker 1: Well, we sure are, and there's been a big conversation

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Speaker 1: about how the former president might fight this. There's something

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Speaker 1: I want to ask you about because it's important. It

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Speaker 1: hasn't gotten enough talk, and that has to do with

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Speaker 1: testimony from Donald Trump's former lawyer, speaking of his legal

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Speaker 1: team here, Evan Corkran was allowed to essentially break attorney

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Speaker 1: client privilege based on what they call the crime fraud exception,

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Speaker 1: and this helped them learn a lot more about what

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump was up to here. Basically, you can use

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Speaker 1: the proper language here, Michael. If a client is using

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Speaker 1: his lawyer to further a crime, that does away with

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Speaker 1: the attorney client privilege. But is that going to be

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Speaker 1: attacked in Donald Trump's response here? Will that hold up

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Speaker 1: in court.

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Speaker 3: Well, that's a great question, and I have been trying

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Speaker 3: very hard to figure out the answer to it. It

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Speaker 3: seems to me the decision by the judge in DC

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Speaker 3: it was running the grand jury that allowed the attorney

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Speaker 3: client privilege to be breached because of this crime frauductception

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Speaker 3: that you just said should be the law of the

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Speaker 3: case and it should stay with the case throughout its duration. However,

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Speaker 3: I believe good defense counsel will try to make an

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Speaker 3: issue of this because Evan Corcoran, Trump's lawyer, who took

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Speaker 3: notes and made audio tapes of their conversations, is the

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Speaker 3: most important witness the prosecutors have for the obstruction aspect

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Speaker 3: of the case. They or the case which I think

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Speaker 3: is the most difficult to defend, and so if they

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Speaker 3: can keep him out, then the government's case doesn't completely

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Speaker 3: go away. But it really is that right, So of

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Speaker 3: course they will try it, but I don't think they

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Speaker 3: should succeed.

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Speaker 1: Is the indictment relies on this testimony, right, I mean

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Speaker 1: if they remove this, the prosecutor is going to have

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Speaker 1: a much more difficult case to prove, is what you're saying. Exactly,

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Speaker 1: how does the special counsel question joke.

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Speaker 3: Your earlier question when you asked why is he having

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Speaker 3: trouble getting a lawyer? Evan Corcoran is exhibit A. He

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Speaker 3: was his lawyer. He's a very good lawyer, former prosecutor.

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Speaker 3: He ends up now being a witness in the trial.

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Speaker 3: No lawyer really wants that.

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Speaker 1: So that alone is enough reason for a trial lawyer

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Speaker 1: to say thanks, but no thanks if they get the call.

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Speaker 3: Fling, do you think absolutely so to chill my interest

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Speaker 3: in it.

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Speaker 1: I'm guessing you wouldn't take the case.

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Speaker 3: Michael, Oh no, not me.

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Speaker 1: Is the timing of this telling us anything about the

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Speaker 1: other investigation? By the way, people need to be reminded,

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Speaker 1: Jack Smith has a whole other case he's working on

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Speaker 1: involving the events of January sixth. We don't have any

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Speaker 1: reason to believe that these cannot happen concurrently, right, that

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Speaker 1: both indictments could be delivered. We're not waiting for this

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Speaker 1: to resolve first, that's correct.

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Speaker 3: I don't think that Jack Smith would wait to indict

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Speaker 3: on the January sixth case if there's evidence that warrants it,

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Speaker 3: simply because he's already indicted. He's not going to wait

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Speaker 3: a year or to three however long the case takes

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Speaker 3: to prosecute before he returns that indictment. Whether they schedule

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Speaker 3: the trials in a way that one follows the other,

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Speaker 3: it remains to be seen, but not in terms of

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Speaker 3: the indictment itself.

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Speaker 1: Talking about this the rest of our lives, Michael, at

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Speaker 1: least I hope you'll stay with us for that long

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Speaker 1: Michael Zelden, great conversation. We learned a lot, as always

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Speaker 1: from a former federal prosecutor. On an historic day here

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Speaker 1: with a former president of the United States being arraigned

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Speaker 1: in federal court. Will assemble the panel next. I'm Joe Matthew.

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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg