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Speaker 1: On the Bechdelcast. The questions asked if movies have women

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Speaker 1: and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,

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Speaker 1: or do they have individualism? It's the patriarchy, zeph and

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Speaker 1: best start changing it with the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Jamie, any last words.

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Speaker 3: What a day, What a day it is for men

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Speaker 3: being bitches to each other?

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, I am.

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Speaker 3: Just so thrilled. Welcome to the Prestige episode of the

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Speaker 3: Bechdel Cast. My name is Jamie Loftis.

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Speaker 2: My name is Caitlin Dorante or the Great Durante.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, this movie this second I we'll talk

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Speaker 3: about I haven't seen this movie in like eight or

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Speaker 3: nine years. And the second it started, you're like, oh right,

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Speaker 3: this movie is so silly. This is a silly one.

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Speaker 3: I love it.

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Speaker 2: It's serious.

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Speaker 3: Every scene is like, what's the trick? What's the trick?

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Speaker 3: And at the end of the scene they're like, ah,

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Speaker 3: I still don't know the trick. And then the next

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Speaker 3: scene is him going to another guy being like, I

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Speaker 3: didn't find out the trick. It's it's just all the trick,

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Speaker 3: the secret, the trick, the secret, the trick, the secret,

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Speaker 3: the daughter, the wife, the trick, the secret.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes there's a cipher.

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Speaker 3: Sometimes there's a cipher, and sometimes there's a journal. This

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Speaker 3: is ultimately a movie about men reading each other's journals,

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Speaker 3: and that is important, beautiful, that's important.

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Speaker 2: Men should write more journals.

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Speaker 3: There's tricks in the journals. They can't be vulnerable in

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Speaker 3: the journals. At the end, they're like, just kidding, bitch like.

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Speaker 2: But in theory, men should write more journals and then

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Speaker 2: exchange those journals so that they can understand each other's

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Speaker 2: feelings better.

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Speaker 3: But when does a journal become a manifesto? You know,

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Speaker 3: it's a slippery slope. It's a slippery slope. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: These are journals, but they neg the whole journal. At

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Speaker 3: the end of the journal, they're like, actually, this was

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Speaker 3: not a real journal, work of fiction. And I'm fucking

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Speaker 3: your girlfriend, and how do you like that? And you're

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Speaker 3: in jail.

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Speaker 2: And also I framed you for murder, bitch.

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Speaker 3: And you're in jail. How does that feel? I And oh,

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Speaker 3: I adopted your daughter spoiler alert, I forgot about I

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Speaker 3: know that he stole his daughter. The twist at the end,

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Speaker 3: I know is the twist everyone remembers. But the twist

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Speaker 3: that I forgot that like hit me even harder than

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Speaker 3: the end is when he shows up with the daughter,

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Speaker 3: I was like, this is just these divas. I love it.

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Speaker 3: Okay Bybolical, all right, all right, this is the Bechdel cast, Caitlin.

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Speaker 3: What is the Bechdel Test? Tell them? Tell them?

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Speaker 2: It's a media metric created by best friend of the show,

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Speaker 2: Alison Bechdel. Yes, there are many versions of the test.

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Speaker 2: The one that we use requires that two people of

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Speaker 2: a marginalized gender have names, they must talk to each other,

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Speaker 2: and their conversation has to be about something other than

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Speaker 2: a man. And we also like it when it's something

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Speaker 2: narratively significant and not just throw away dialogue.

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Speaker 3: And let's get one thing out of the way. This

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Speaker 3: movie does not pass the Bechtel mast and not a

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Speaker 3: little bit and even close. I think two women are

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Speaker 3: in the scene at the same time, but like, not really.

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Speaker 2: I found that barely.

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Speaker 3: I found this great letter box list called Christopher Nolan

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Speaker 3: films that fail the Bextel tests. Bonus points if the

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Speaker 3: leading man is haunted by his dead wife, and this

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Speaker 3: movie does meet both, and it's and the list is

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Speaker 3: guess how many movies are on this list?

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Speaker 2: Ten.

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Speaker 3: Nine, they're nine?

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Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, can you name.

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Speaker 3: All of the Christopher Nolan films that fail the back

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Speaker 3: Let's bring our guests in and let's let's.

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Speaker 2: Let's collaborate on this.

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Speaker 3: This is a group project. This is a returning guts

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Speaker 3: an incredible returning guest.

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Speaker 2: Indeed, she's a magician. She runs a magic venue in

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Speaker 2: Chicago called the Cosmic Underground Theater where she performs every

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Speaker 2: Friday and Saturday night. So be sure to check her out.

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Speaker 2: And you remember her from our episode on Now you

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Speaker 2: see Me. It's Kayla Dresher.

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Speaker 4: Hell, welcome, We thank you. I'm so happy to be here.

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Speaker 4: This is awesome.

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Speaker 5: Thanks for doing this because I agree this movie is

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Speaker 5: just silly, so I'm excited to talk about it.

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Speaker 3: It's a silly one there, it's so much movie. I'm

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Speaker 3: so curious what your perspective is as a magician. But

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Speaker 3: before it, but before we can get to that, can

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Speaker 3: you both I have I have the cipher, so I actually, oh, true, true,

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Speaker 3: But can you, between the two of you guess the

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Speaker 3: Christopher Nolan films that fail the Bechdel test? All nine

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Speaker 3: of them?

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Speaker 5: Uh?

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Speaker 2: Well, maybe going in chronological order of release. Okay, Memento,

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Speaker 2: although there might be one before that that I haven't seen,

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Speaker 2: but let's start with Memento.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 5: I had to look up just various Christopher Nolan films,

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Speaker 5: so already I'm starting from way behind. But I mean,

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Speaker 5: I'm trying to remember the Dark Night and it feels

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Speaker 5: like that might be on there.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 3: It definitely is cool. Kind of haunted by a dead girlfriend,

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Speaker 3: I guess, more so a girlfriend.

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Speaker 2: Right right?

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Speaker 3: And then Memento definitely. Wait, I haven't seen mymenta in

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Speaker 3: a long time? Dead wife, living wife? Are we trying

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Speaker 3: to save the wife?

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Speaker 2: The whole thing is that she's dead but he doesn't

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Speaker 2: remember about it or something I forget.

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Speaker 3: But I know that Christopher Nolan's wife is his producing partner.

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Speaker 3: But at some point it's like I get it. I

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Speaker 3: get it. You think your work will be better when

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Speaker 3: I die? Okay, Like okay.

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Speaker 2: But then we've got Inception.

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Speaker 3: It is a big one. Yeah, dead wife haunting.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Interstellar.

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Speaker 3: Correct, I haven't seen that one.

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Speaker 2: Insomnia, No, that that's not on that one that must Pass? Wow,

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Speaker 2: you know I've never seen that one.

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Speaker 3: Let's throw in this movie. The Prestige is one of them.

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Speaker 3: The prestige, of course, Big Dead, wife Dead, everyone dead,

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Speaker 3: everyone sure, everyone dies?

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Speaker 4: Is dark, Knight rises on there?

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Speaker 3: It is as is Batman begins. Yes, okay, two more?

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Speaker 3: Two more more?

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Speaker 2: Is Oppenheimer on there?

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Speaker 3: No, it is not okay, Tenant Tenet is on it.

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Speaker 3: And the last one, perhaps the least factel test passing

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Speaker 3: this movie ever made by Christopher Nolan. Oh shit, it's

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Speaker 3: a movie I think I called when it released, I

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Speaker 3: still haven't seen it.

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Speaker 2: I called, Oh, Dunkirk Boy Island.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yes, those are the nine movies that do not pass.

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Speaker 3: And that's all I have to say. Beautiful, all right,

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Speaker 3: the prestige, the prestige, Kayla. I'm so curious what your

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Speaker 3: history with this movie is.

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Speaker 5: So really, the last time I saw this movie was

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Speaker 5: when it was in theaters, so I we're talking like

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Speaker 5: junior year of high school maybe, and I remember not

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Speaker 5: caring for it for just a load of reasons. But

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Speaker 5: the friends I was with, who were very intelligent people,

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Speaker 5: were like analyzing the whole timeline jumping and like.

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Speaker 4: All this just how it was real.

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Speaker 5: They were like, oh, this is so good, and I

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Speaker 5: just kept thinking that magically this is a mess. And

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Speaker 5: I think that's why I didn't like it is that

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Speaker 5: it's both incredibly accurate and also incredibly inaccurate to magic.

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Speaker 2: Interesting and had you started magic at that point when

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Speaker 2: you were that age?

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, yep.

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Speaker 5: So I had been doing magic for maybe about ten

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Speaker 5: years at that point, because I started when I was.

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Speaker 4: Seven, So it's quite inciting.

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Speaker 5: Okay, So being like very involved in the magic community

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Speaker 5: but also not knowing a lot about magic history, I

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Speaker 5: just remember going, I think that some of these things

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Speaker 5: are historically pretty accurate, but also like what.

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Speaker 4: So there was just a lot of that and I

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Speaker 4: remember not caring for it.

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Speaker 5: So when you suggested that we do this movie, I

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Speaker 5: was like, Oh, this is gonna be fun and I

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Speaker 5: want to rewatching it again. I felt the same, very similar,

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Speaker 5: and I'm excited to like dive into the details. But

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Speaker 5: it definitely feels in terms of personality, it's very similar

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Speaker 5: to It's like a kind of an exaggerated way to

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Speaker 5: explain the magic community, and a lot of magicians just

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Speaker 5: this over the top, like jealousy and stealing stuff and

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Speaker 5: all that is pretty accurate, But then a lot of

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Speaker 5: the historical figures they discuss or don't discuss is so

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Speaker 5: inaccurate that it makes me a little bit like, well,

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Speaker 5: you could have added in anybody to make this just

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Speaker 5: more accurate, or you could have changed this one detail

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Speaker 5: to make this better. So now a lot about magic history,

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Speaker 5: especially magic history of magicians who are not white men.

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Speaker 5: I now look at this movie going, oh, we needed help.

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Speaker 3: Oh I'm so excited to hear more about the history.

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Speaker 3: It's really wonderful talking about a movie with someone who

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Speaker 3: has historical context on why the movie is frustrating in

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Speaker 3: a way that you don't. It is just a treat.

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Speaker 3: I'm very excited, Caitlin. What's your history with this movie.

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Speaker 3: I saw the movie when it first came out, I

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Speaker 3: believe in theaters, and because I don't have a background

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Speaker 3: in magic and wouldn't have been annoyed by any historical inaccuracies,

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Speaker 3: I loved it. I was like, this is awesome, and

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Speaker 3: as an appreciator of magic, and again not knowing any better,

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Speaker 3: I was like, well, this must be the pinnacle of

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Speaker 3: magic history. And then I bought it on DVD and

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Speaker 3: I watched it pretty regularly, maybe like once or twice

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Speaker 3: a year for the next like five years or so.

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Speaker 2: But then it tapered off. For me, I hadn't seen

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Speaker 2: this movie and I think fifteen or so years, but

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Speaker 2: I would still consider it probably my second favorite Christopher

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Speaker 2: Nolan movie behind Inception. It's mostly based on vibes and

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Speaker 2: the men being bitches to each other aspect of the movie.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's not gonna fare well on the nipple scale,

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Speaker 2: but on the rompo meter, I still think it's a

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Speaker 2: ten out of ten. I have boatloads of fun watching

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Speaker 2: this movie, and I'm so excited to talk more about it.

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Speaker 3: Jamie.

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Speaker 2: What's your relationship with it?

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Speaker 3: I think I sort of in part of my career

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Speaker 3: in podcasting to this movie where I was thinking about

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Speaker 3: it truly because I was thinking about I mean, we

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Speaker 3: had started the Becdel Cast at this point, but I

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Speaker 3: covered this movie on the Cracked Movie Club in twenty seventeen.

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Speaker 3: It was the first time I had seen it. I

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Speaker 3: was like, this movie is terrible for women and great

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Speaker 3: to watch. Unfortunately many such movies right So I really

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Speaker 3: enjoyed it and I went on the Cracked Movie Club

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Speaker 3: and then I met Jack O'Brien off of that who

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Speaker 3: started listening to the Bechdel Cast brought us onto the

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Speaker 3: house stuff Works Network brought us onto iHeartRadio. Anyways, that

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Speaker 3: was all like the better part of a decade ago.

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Speaker 3: So I was like, wow, I kind of owe it

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Speaker 3: all to the prestige in a way. Wow, I could argue.

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Speaker 2: Me found it in a ditch your podcast partner.

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Speaker 3: No, it was like, this is because I met Jack

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Speaker 3: O'Brien that we came onto the net.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, no, no, that huge catalyst.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yes. So it was like a big thing to like,

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Speaker 3: why we're sitting here in this way? In a way

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Speaker 3: I don't know. So I had a fun walk down

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Speaker 3: memory lane thinking about that and rewatching this movie, which

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Speaker 3: I remember little bits of but I did not remember.

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Speaker 3: It was basically like watching it for the first time again.

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Speaker 3: I had some Mandela effect thing going on where I

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Speaker 3: was so sure Rachel McAdams was in this movie.

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Speaker 2: This is a really Rachel McAdams coded movie.

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Speaker 3: I think we should have swapped her out with Scarlett Johanson.

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Speaker 3: Who is you know, outside of disputing her shitty politics,

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Speaker 3: I'm also just like the most diabolical accent work, Like

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Speaker 3: the woman cannot do an accent to save her life.

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Speaker 3: I was like, where's Rachel McAdams. She could do an accent.

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Speaker 3: Maybe I think I think she did in the guy

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Speaker 3: Ritchie lock Holme's movie. Oh right, she's in those sense.

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Speaker 2: Maybe that's why it feels like she should be in

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Speaker 2: this movie.

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Speaker 3: They look very similar. They whatever they you know, And

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Speaker 3: and it's another silly one, hmm.

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Speaker 5: There's also the I don't remember her name. I earlier

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Speaker 5: definitely called her Pati Poblo, and I think it's Piperblo.

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Speaker 3: That's a parable Petoo Pablo. Yeah, by preparable. Yeah. She

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Speaker 3: was always always happy to see her and something she feels.

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Speaker 5: Like an easy person to confuse for. Rachel McAdams liked they.

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Speaker 2: I see it.

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Speaker 5: Their their look is similar, like the way. So when

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Speaker 5: you said that, I was like, oh, yeah, you're right,

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Speaker 5: that wasn't her.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's I There are a lot of women who

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Speaker 3: could be Rachel McAdams in this movie, and that's you know,

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Speaker 3: white women, brown hair. Rebecca Hall, who I love Rebecca.

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Speaker 3: I love Rebecca Hall, and I love her in this movie.

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Speaker 3: And we'll talk about her character because I did clearly

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Speaker 3: remember what happened to her character, and it's and it's

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Speaker 3: a crime. I did remember. David Bowie, Nicola Tesla. I'm

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Speaker 3: very curious on your thoughts on that, Kayla. I feel

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Speaker 3: like men are obsessed with Nikola Tesla and they love

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Speaker 3: to bring him. I mean one comes to mind, certainly,

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Speaker 3: but you know many guys are obsessed with Nikola Tesla.

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Speaker 3: Wasn't surprised, I thought, Andy, Sir, I guess ooh, I

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Speaker 3: was so happy to see him. I forgot he was

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Speaker 3: in this and he's everyone's doing a little accent in

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Speaker 3: this movie, and some people are doing it well, and

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Speaker 3: other people are Scarlett Johansson and David. I don't know

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Speaker 3: if David. I don't know what David Bowie is doing

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Speaker 3: rip to him.

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Speaker 2: And mostly because okay, I kept I was watching this

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Speaker 2: movie and I was like, I was like, David Bowie's

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Speaker 2: performance as Nikola Tesla is reminding me of something and

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Speaker 2: I could not figure it out. And what I concluded

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Speaker 2: is that his voice sounds exactly like Pierce Brosnan's voice. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but David Bowie, I think it is supposed to be doing.

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Speaker 2: Was Tesla Russian? Where was he from or somewhere in

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Speaker 2: Eastern Europe? But I think he's supposed to be doing

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Speaker 2: like an Eastern European accent that David Bowie is not

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Speaker 2: doing I would say most of the time, and he.

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Speaker 3: Just serbian serbian American.

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Speaker 2: Okay, okay. So I watched a movie that no one

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Speaker 2: else saw, The Current Wars, which.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I was thinking of that. Who is in that

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Speaker 3: Tesla movie? I think there's a third one too? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Really? So Nicholas Holt plays Tesla in that movie, and

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Speaker 2: then it's Michael Shannon and who's the other person. But

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Speaker 2: it's another like very like male rivalry men being bitches

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Speaker 2: to each other movie. But I feel like no one

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Speaker 2: saw it.

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Speaker 3: There's also Ethan Hawk, Yes, Ethan Hawk as Tesla twenty twenty, right, right, right, right.

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Speaker 3: I mean he's an important cultural figure. I'll be honest,

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Speaker 3: I don't know very much about this guy, and let's

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Speaker 3: just leave it at that, because that's the extent of

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Speaker 3: what I know. He exists, and I'm assuming that his

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Speaker 3: legacy is tarnished by his association with Elon Musk. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, I forget where I was going with that. Oh,

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Speaker 3: there's so much to talk about. What I mostly loved

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Speaker 3: about this movie in retrospect is just like it is

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Speaker 3: so wild that Christopher Nolan was making two amazing movies

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Speaker 3: between Batman movies. It is just it's just so good.

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Speaker 3: This was between Batman one and two, and then Inception

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Speaker 3: comes between two and three, which is ridiculous. Yea, and

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Speaker 3: good for him. I love this guy, and I feel

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Speaker 3: like people don't really talk about this movie very much anymore,

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Speaker 3: certainly not as much as Inception. It was a hit

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Speaker 3: at the time, like I guess, a more modest hit

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Speaker 3: by Christopher Nolan's standards. But I wish people talked about

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Speaker 3: this movie Moore.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it only like slightly overdoubled its budget rather than

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Speaker 2: like multiplied its budget by ten kind of thing.

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Speaker 3: Kind of embarrassing for him, right, yeah, I guess because

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Speaker 3: how big a hit was Inception by Yoh yeah, Inception

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Speaker 3: made like almost a billion dollars? Got it? Okay, Well,

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Speaker 3: this movie is really good and if you haven't seen it,

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Speaker 3: you know you should. I I pirated it, can I

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Speaker 3: be honest. I pirated it.

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Speaker 2: That's okay. I watched it on my DVD that I

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Speaker 2: still have.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's great.

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Speaker 3: Look at God.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, thank you, thank you. All Right, so let's take

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Speaker 2: a quick break and then we'll get into the recap.

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Speaker 3: And we're back.

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Speaker 2: This is maybe the longest recap I've ever written, and

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Speaker 2: I really tried to like simplify it and pare it down,

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Speaker 2: but it's so complicated this.

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Speaker 3: Movie, Kayla. If it's cool by you, could we like,

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Speaker 3: as the performances are happening, can we ask your perspective

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Speaker 3: on them?

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Speaker 5: Oh? For sure, I very much agree that this is

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Speaker 5: a very well done movie. But I have a lot

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Speaker 5: of opinions, So please ask at any point and I'm ready.

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Speaker 3: Okay, excellent, and feel free to just just jump in,

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Speaker 3: burst in brilliant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, so we'll place some content warning here at

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Speaker 2: the top for suicide. But we are in London in

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Speaker 2: the late eighteen hundreds. We open on voice over from

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Speaker 2: Michael Kine talking about how every magic trick consists of

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Speaker 2: three parts. The first is the pledge, where a magician

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Speaker 2: shows you something ordinary. Next is the turn, where the

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Speaker 2: magician takes the ordinary thing and makes it do something extraordinary,

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Speaker 2: such as disappear the object. And the third part of

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Speaker 2: the magic trick is the prestige that's the name of

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Speaker 2: the movie, where the magician brings back the disappeared thing.

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Speaker 3: Okay, fact check number one, Kayla, is that true? Ah?

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Speaker 3: So awesome?

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Speaker 5: I think I think in part so I've never heard

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Speaker 5: this language before. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist in

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Speaker 5: a book that might have been written around that time period.

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Speaker 5: I've never heard, just like the language of pledged turn prestige.

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Speaker 5: That's a new one for me. I mean, they did

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Speaker 5: explain how a trick works, which is like, here's this thing.

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Speaker 5: Look it's normal, and now I do a cool thing

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Speaker 5: with it. So yeah, that is definitely true, especially the

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Speaker 5: part where they say if something disappears, you need to

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Speaker 5: bring it back. That's like a very steadfast rule in magic.

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Speaker 5: So if you do make something vanish, you got to

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Speaker 5: bring a backgirl to people can to ask a lot

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Speaker 5: of questions, and it feels like it's not fulfilled. It

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Speaker 5: feels like there's a cliffhanger, and we don't want that

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Speaker 5: in the middle of a trick. So yes, but I

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Speaker 5: think they added a lot of fun fluff to it,

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Speaker 5: which I'm not mad about. It's good, it's fine, cool.

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Speaker 2: It's a movie that feels like a movie. You gotta

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Speaker 2: be doing movie things. Okay. So while we are learning this,

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Speaker 2: we are also seeing bits from a magic show performed

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Speaker 2: by the Great Dantun aka Robert and Jeer played by

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Speaker 2: Hugh Jackman.

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Speaker 3: Hugh Jackman's having the time of his damn life, oh boy,

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Speaker 3: and he never works with I was like, here's my

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Speaker 3: head cannon. Christopher Nolan's like, okay, it's a bit much,

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Speaker 3: you know, Like I feel like Christopher Nolan is not

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Speaker 3: an ally to theater kids at the end of the day.

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Speaker 3: That's just my guess. That's just my guess because I

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Speaker 3: think Hugh Jackman turns in an excellent, if extremely weird

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Speaker 3: performance in this movie. And I also am like, yeah,

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Speaker 3: I guess it makes sense. I feel like Christopher Nolan

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Speaker 3: is like a serious actor kind of guy. Sure, maybe

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Speaker 3: I'm wrong, Maybe I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 5: There was a cause I was looking at One of

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Speaker 5: the things I often do is when there's a magic movie,

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Speaker 5: I want to know who was the consultant on it.

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Speaker 5: And one of the consultants was Derek DelGaudio, who is

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Speaker 5: quite well known for his show in and of itself,

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Speaker 5: which is it's on Hulu, but it had a pretty

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Speaker 5: successful run in New York. And one of the things

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Speaker 5: that Derek Dolgaudier, I guess mentioned was that he was

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Speaker 5: brought on to help the actors really embody, like the

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Speaker 5: feeling and personality and the oomph of a magician, which

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Speaker 5: I feel like Hugh Jackman was like, I got this.

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Speaker 5: I'm surprised he didn't have a song because that felt

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Speaker 5: like it should have fit right in, especially knowing that like.

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Speaker 3: This was the greatest show he's and he's the greatest

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Speaker 3: show miss the greatest Show twenty seventeen. Yes, yep, it.

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Speaker 5: Felt because Dogattio is very artistic and it's it's a

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Speaker 5: very different way of performing magic than I would. He's

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Speaker 5: very much about emotion and story and all of this stuff.

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Speaker 5: So it doesn't make sense to me when you're like

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Speaker 5: Hugeman is a lot. It's like, yeah, no, I but

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Speaker 5: I see where kind of where that could have come

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Speaker 5: from easily.

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Speaker 3: In Okay, so they found it. Sounds like they matched

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Speaker 3: their energies, well big time.

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Speaker 2: That's cool.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well did you find their respective performances convincing or

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Speaker 3: like passable as actual convincing magicians?

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Speaker 5: If there was an equivalent of a Bechtel test to

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Speaker 5: how magician y is this actor, it would have a

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Speaker 5: ten out of ten. Like everybody in this was like

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Speaker 5: down to the jealousy, the silliness the like often slightly

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Speaker 5: immature way of responding things feels very familiar.

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Speaker 2: So yes, incredible, Okay, Yeah, So we're seeing this magic

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Speaker 2: show that Robert Angier is performing, and then another magician,

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Speaker 2: Alfred Borden played by Christian Bale, sneaks backstage during the

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Speaker 2: show and sees Angier fall into and be trapped inside

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Speaker 2: of a large glass tank of water, where he presumably

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Speaker 2: drowns because we cut to a courtroom where Borden is

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Speaker 2: on trial for murdering and Jeer, and then testifying in

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Speaker 2: court is Cutter, the Michael Kane character who is an Engeneus,

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Speaker 2: the engineer, the designer of magic tricks and builder of

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Speaker 2: the apparatus that makes them possible, and he was doing

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Speaker 2: this for Robert Angier leading up to his death. Borden

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Speaker 2: is convicted of this murder and sent to prison, where

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Speaker 2: he is approached by a solicitor who represents someone named

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Speaker 2: Lord called Old or something, and this man is looking

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Speaker 2: to buy the rights to Borden's most valuable trick, called

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Speaker 2: the Transported Man. There's also mention of Borden's young daughter

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Speaker 2: being taken care of.

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Speaker 3: This movie is in some ways about fathers and daughters.

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Speaker 3: Except you know, not.

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Speaker 2: Really except not really, not really, but Borden is hesitant

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Speaker 2: to play ball, to play with his rubber ball, that is.

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Speaker 2: But anyway, we flash back a few years to Robert

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Speaker 2: and Jeer arriving in Colorado Springs. He is hoping to

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Speaker 2: be granted an audience with Nikola Tesla, who a Jeer

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Speaker 2: wants to commission to build him something. We're not totally

437
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,719
Speaker 2: sure what, but Tesla's assistant Ali played by Andy Serkis,

438
00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,440
Speaker 2: says no thanks, Tesla is not interested.

439
00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 3: Always a pleasure to see Andy's circus acting in human

440
00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:10,639
Speaker 3: Forum and.

441
00:23:10,760 --> 00:23:17,320
Speaker 2: Not in Gollum or whatever, Ape Star Wars Ape Man Ape. Yeah.

442
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 5: Yes, I randomly met Andy Serkis same a couple years ago.

443
00:23:21,960 --> 00:23:22,600
Speaker 2: Oh cool.

444
00:23:22,800 --> 00:23:24,680
Speaker 5: It was one of those times where you're like, oh,

445
00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:27,080
Speaker 5: I really respect this man and at the same time,

446
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,040
Speaker 5: I made a fool of myself and it was great.

447
00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,680
Speaker 5: He's so nice, And it also is weird when he's

448
00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 5: like you go, oh, yeah, he sounds like a normal person.

449
00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,200
Speaker 5: I'm so you see him sounding so different my bushes yep,

450
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:43,920
Speaker 5: but he's super sweet. You also met him, Jamie, Yeah.

451
00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's still I think one of my favorite interviews

452
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 3: I've ever done. Just like the coolest, nicest guy ever.

453
00:23:50,680 --> 00:23:51,280
Speaker 5: That's awesome.

454
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: I didn't meet him, but I saw him from Afar

455
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,479
Speaker 2: on the Warner Brothers lot when I was an intern

456
00:23:56,480 --> 00:23:58,959
Speaker 2: at Conan like eleven years ago.

457
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 3: Wow, we've all had close encounters of the circus kind.

458
00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:08,399
Speaker 2: Well yes, okay, So then we flash back even further

459
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 2: to when Angier and Borden were working together along with

460
00:24:15,040 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: a Jeer's his wife Julia played by Piper Parabo of

461
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 2: Coyote Ugly Fame or she's also known Pati Popo, Yes,

462
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: and they are doing a trick at a show that

463
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:34,679
Speaker 2: involves tying Julia up and dropping her in that large

464
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:38,199
Speaker 2: glass tank of water that we saw earlier, which she

465
00:24:38,400 --> 00:24:41,840
Speaker 2: has to escape from, and one night during a show,

466
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: the trick goes wrong. Julia is not able to escape

467
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: from the tank and she drowns, and so Angeer blames

468
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,879
Speaker 2: Borden for killing his wife because Borden maybe tied a

469
00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,320
Speaker 2: different not than usual that Julia wasn't able to escape from,

470
00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:04,200
Speaker 2: but bordon can't remember which knot he tied. So this

471
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: is the end of the Borden and Jeer professional relationship

472
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 2: and the beginning of a huge rivalry between them and

473
00:25:14,160 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 2: them being huge bitches to each other.

474
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 3: This is probably one of my favorite sequences in the movie,

475
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 3: and we have to say one of the worst sequences

476
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 3: for women because it is just a classic Nolan fridging

477
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:30,280
Speaker 3: the wife to move the you know, and I know

478
00:25:30,320 --> 00:25:32,960
Speaker 3: this is based on a novel as well, so you

479
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:35,640
Speaker 3: know who was the first to fridge. I'm actually not sure.

480
00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: I did not read the book, but it says something

481
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:39,720
Speaker 2: that Nolan was drawn to this project.

482
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:42,360
Speaker 3: He loves a dead wife. I would just be so nervous.

483
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: And if I were Emma Thomas, who is I mean,

484
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,879
Speaker 3: they seem very happy whatever, Okay. I love the sequence

485
00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,760
Speaker 3: with Hugh Jackman just bawling his fist ups and being

486
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,920
Speaker 3: like what not was it? It's like, I know, it's

487
00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 3: really serious because a woman has died, but he's being

488
00:25:59,840 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 3: so funny. He's like yelling at his journal like what

489
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 3: was it? And then they do the thing where I

490
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,639
Speaker 3: guess over the course of years. I'm also like not

491
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 3: sure the time the amount of time that passes in

492
00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:12,720
Speaker 3: the course of this movie.

493
00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 2: It's kind of confusing. Yeah.

494
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 3: Occasionally one will just show up in a fake ass

495
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:18,960
Speaker 3: beard and be like do you want to know my trick,

496
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,359
Speaker 3: and then like shoot the other one and then you're like, wow,

497
00:26:22,400 --> 00:26:24,880
Speaker 3: that was that was intense. And then someone else shows

498
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,200
Speaker 3: up in the They're just showing up in various facial

499
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:33,119
Speaker 3: hair like, it's just it's so dramatic. I love it.

500
00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:38,879
Speaker 2: It's awesome. Okay, So the rivalry is born, and sometime

501
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 2: after this, Borden is working on his own act with

502
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 2: this guy named Fallon who is Borden's and they're working

503
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: on a bullet catching trick, which Borden's wife, Sarah played

504
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 2: by Rebecca Hall, doesn't like because she thinks it's too

505
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: dangerous and she's like, what if you die? I can't

506
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 2: raise this baby on my own. That's right, I'm gregnant, and.

507
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 3: He says, okay, I'll tell you my trick. That's what

508
00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:09,479
Speaker 3: that's the only way to learn his trick is to

509
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: get pregnant, just.

510
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:11,920
Speaker 2: To get pregnant with his baby.

511
00:27:11,960 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, high stakes.

512
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,560
Speaker 2: He insists that it's mostly safe. But one night, as

513
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,280
Speaker 2: Borden is doing the bullet catch trick and giving the

514
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,399
Speaker 2: gun to an audience volunteer, which why would you do that?

515
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:31,880
Speaker 2: There are too many variables involved? But anyway, he gives

516
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 2: it to an audience volunteer who turns out to be

517
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 2: a jeer who wants to kill Bordon.

518
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:41,200
Speaker 3: So I pause, Kayla, authenticity check.

519
00:27:43,200 --> 00:27:47,480
Speaker 5: Great question. So thinking about the water tank, that is

520
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 5: very dangerous and could easily go wrong effect. I used

521
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 5: to be in a touring show called Champions of Magic

522
00:27:54,040 --> 00:27:56,200
Speaker 5: and the show has an escape artist and he did

523
00:27:56,240 --> 00:27:59,199
Speaker 5: the water tank and there was one night where it

524
00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 5: did go wrong and drop the curtain and I'm like

525
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:03,919
Speaker 5: the next performers who have to walk out and be

526
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 5: like hey, And so it is very dangerous, it can

527
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 5: go wrong quickly. So super authentic that that would be

528
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 5: somebody's demise. Also very authentic that because at the time

529
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:19,960
Speaker 5: there was a woman who was very well known for

530
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:22,520
Speaker 5: being an escape artist, which I'll get into more of

531
00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:25,240
Speaker 5: that shortly, but her name was Nerva and she was

532
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 5: a very famous escape artist. So it does make sense

533
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 5: that that would be something a woman would do because

534
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,119
Speaker 5: that was very accurate to the time. And same with

535
00:28:31,160 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 5: the bullet catches. There are over ten I don't actually

536
00:28:34,640 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 5: know the number at this point. It's got to be

537
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 5: ten or twelve magicians who have died from the bullet catch.

538
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 5: So it is a very dangerous thing. It's not like

539
00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 5: that anymore. Too many safety things have now gone into play.

540
00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 5: But it would have been conceivable that they would have

541
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 5: given the gun to an audience volunteer to pull the trigger.

542
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,120
Speaker 5: Now it is not done, but yeah, it is a

543
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:55,040
Speaker 5: very authentic thing.

544
00:28:55,320 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 2: Interesting.

545
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 3: Okay, that was something, yeah that I was excited to

546
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 3: hear what you thought about, because I was like, I

547
00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,680
Speaker 3: guess I do believe that in Victorian England they were

548
00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 3: just doing whatever they're like, I certainly believe they were

549
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 3: killing birds, like you know, stuff like that.

550
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 2: Yeah.

551
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, and I can give you the thumbs up on

552
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:16,360
Speaker 5: all of that is very accurate.

553
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:19,720
Speaker 3: Okay oof yeah, bleak.

554
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:25,560
Speaker 2: Okay. So it's Angier who is at the show holding

555
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 2: the gun for this bullet catch trick, and he sabotages

556
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,760
Speaker 2: it doesn't manage to kill Bordon, but Angeer does shoot

557
00:29:33,800 --> 00:29:37,800
Speaker 2: off a couple of Bordon's fingers, which will make Borden

558
00:29:38,160 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: doing a lot of magic tricks very difficult.

559
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 3: And again with the Christopher Nolan of it all, I

560
00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 3: was like, it's so funny that this movie, with like

561
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:52,520
Speaker 3: this intensity of like tethered rivalry is what comes out

562
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 3: immediately before the Dark Knight, which is the movie is

563
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,560
Speaker 3: about the exact same thing, is about an intense, tethered

564
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,440
Speaker 3: rivalry between men who like want them to die but

565
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:04,080
Speaker 3: also need them to survive and Rare Rare like it's

566
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 3: just it's his favorite. True.

567
00:30:07,720 --> 00:30:13,200
Speaker 2: So meanwhile, Angeer and Cutter are now working together and

568
00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 2: they hire an assistant, Olivia played by Scarlett Johansson.

569
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 3: She's like and she's like cheery out like I just.

570
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 2: Not and it's not great. They're practicing a disappearing dove

571
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: trick that keeps the dove alive for once, because, as

572
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 2: we just alluded to, many previous bird disappearing tricks would

573
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:37,160
Speaker 2: kill the bird.

574
00:30:37,400 --> 00:30:40,680
Speaker 3: And Michael Kane is like, so, what do you want

575
00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:43,240
Speaker 3: to be good or not? To be a good magician,

576
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:46,400
Speaker 3: you gotta kill a couple of birds. That's how he talks.

577
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, And a Jeer is about to perform this

578
00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:56,600
Speaker 2: updated version of the trick at this big show, but

579
00:30:57,040 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 2: uh oh, one of the audience volunteers turn out to

580
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: be Borden. They're always going to each other's shows, and Boren.

581
00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 3: Just like, it's just like please it. The staff must

582
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 3: not care for these guys at all, because I'm like

583
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 3: it's just a beard, Like, surely there's a do not

584
00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:19,959
Speaker 3: admit this guy and he's gonna be wearing a little outfit. Yeah,

585
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:20,800
Speaker 3: it's so fun.

586
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 2: They're not paying close enough attention or something. But Borden

587
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,880
Speaker 2: goes on stage to be the audience volunteer. He deliberately

588
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 2: again sabotages the trick and kills the bird in front

589
00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:34,560
Speaker 2: of everyone, as well as like breaks the hand of

590
00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: the other audience volunteer in so doing, and this gets

591
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 2: Angier booted out of this venue that he was performing at.

592
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,120
Speaker 2: So now Angeer needs a way to redeem himself, and

593
00:31:47,200 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: he seems to be getting closer to meeting with Tesla,

594
00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 2: although I think the gap of time between these two

595
00:31:54,280 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 2: events is like several years. Not sure, but I really don't.

596
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:02,920
Speaker 3: I have no I'm sure that it's like in the novel,

597
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:06,600
Speaker 3: it's like clarified. It doesn't super matter, but everyone's just

598
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 3: so frequently disguised. And there's so many time jumps because

599
00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,560
Speaker 3: Christopher Nolan is also obsessed with a little time jump.

600
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:14,640
Speaker 2: He loves time.

601
00:32:14,920 --> 00:32:16,960
Speaker 3: I don't even know. I mean, it takes place at

602
00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,600
Speaker 3: least over Okay, it takes a place at least over

603
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: the course of the daughter's life, so we're covering at

604
00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,880
Speaker 3: least she's what six five four or.

605
00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: Five six, six six seven, maybe, yeah, so.

606
00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,520
Speaker 3: At least half a decade. But it is it is

607
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 3: a little confusing for sure. Yeah.

608
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:36,000
Speaker 2: But the whole thing with Tesla is that he built

609
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: a machine for another magician, presumably Boreden, and this one

610
00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 2: can do quote unquote real magic, not just illusions and misdirection,

611
00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:54,959
Speaker 2: but wizardry, and Angier wants a machine like it, and

612
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 2: he finally meets with Tesla and asks him to build

613
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 2: a specific machine, although we don't yet know exactly what

614
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:03,520
Speaker 2: it's supposed to do.

615
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,640
Speaker 3: Pausing again, Kayla.

616
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,440
Speaker 2: Are there machines that do real magic? Just kidding?

617
00:33:10,680 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 3: And I guess specifically, historically, I was not able to

618
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,440
Speaker 3: like Tesla did not collude with magicians.

619
00:33:17,640 --> 00:33:20,000
Speaker 5: Is that correct as far as I know? Yeah, no

620
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 5: at all. I think there's a really easy thing that

621
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 5: happens a lot with movies that are about magic, where

622
00:33:27,800 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 5: they just are like, well magic, like real magic is

623
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 5: just science, and it's like, oh, yeah, I guess at

624
00:33:33,200 --> 00:33:35,160
Speaker 5: Tesla Coyle, if you don't understand how it works, it

625
00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 5: does look very magical because it's unexplainable. So I think

626
00:33:39,000 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 5: it's an easy thing to be like, oh yeah, magic

627
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,040
Speaker 5: magic make real equal science. Like that's that's it. So

628
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:49,160
Speaker 5: as far as I know, Tesla's not also a magician

629
00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,920
Speaker 5: or isn't friends with or wasn't friends with anybody, So yeah,

630
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 5: I don't think so. I think it was just an

631
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:55,800
Speaker 5: easy tie in.

632
00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 3: I thought it was like kind of I was curious

633
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:00,080
Speaker 3: with you because I thought it was like, it's so

634
00:34:00,320 --> 00:34:02,840
Speaker 3: it's kind of ludicrous, but it's also clever where it's

635
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,480
Speaker 3: like Tesla did famously always run out of money, and

636
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:08,960
Speaker 3: so you're just like, oh, this is a world where

637
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 3: he would accept a magician's bribe to continue his experiments.

638
00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,760
Speaker 2: It's just so silly, I guess. Also in the book,

639
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:23,360
Speaker 2: the rivalry between Tesla and Edison is played up a

640
00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:26,080
Speaker 2: little bit more to sort of mirror the rivalry between

641
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 2: Angier and Borden, but that gets scaled back on. It's

642
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,680
Speaker 2: still there in the movie, but it's lesser than its

643
00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,879
Speaker 2: presence in the novel. Okay, so Angier has finally got

644
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 2: his meeting with Tesla, then we flash back again. I

645
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: think again the chronology of events are confusing, but I

646
00:34:46,719 --> 00:34:50,720
Speaker 2: think we're further back in time, Angier goes to watch

647
00:34:51,080 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 2: another show and sees Borden's new trick, the Transported Man,

648
00:34:56,960 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 2: and it's the best magic trick that Angie has ever seen.

649
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 3: I love, I love, and he's like, ah, that should

650
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:06,760
Speaker 3: have been my trick.

651
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 2: So how this trick works is, or how it appears

652
00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 2: on stage at least, is that Borden goes into a

653
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,359
Speaker 2: door on one side of the stage, then a second later,

654
00:35:18,800 --> 00:35:22,000
Speaker 2: Borden steps out of a different door on the other

655
00:35:22,040 --> 00:35:25,000
Speaker 2: side of the stage, as if he was magically transported

656
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: to the other little cabinet. And again this is like

657
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 2: the most amazing trick that Angier has ever seen. But

658
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:36,759
Speaker 2: Borden is not a great showman, and certainly again not

659
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: the greatest showman, and not.

660
00:35:38,320 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 3: The greatest showman, which is by the way, I think.

661
00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 3: I know that that movie has a huge following and

662
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 3: is beloved by many people I love and respect. I'm

663
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 3: just like that movie has an evil aura to me.

664
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,720
Speaker 3: That movie is so diabolical.

665
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:55,000
Speaker 2: It's a turd. I thought it was nasty.

666
00:35:55,600 --> 00:35:57,840
Speaker 3: It's just it's just a diabolical movie.

667
00:35:57,960 --> 00:36:03,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So Borden is bad at showmanship. So Angier thinks

668
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:06,720
Speaker 2: that if he can figure out how to replicate aka

669
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:11,120
Speaker 2: steal this trick, that he can use his showmanship to

670
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: really sell it and get the audience excited about the trick.

671
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,400
Speaker 5: So accuracy check. This is so accurate. It's so deeply,

672
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:23,520
Speaker 5: deeply accurate. So in magic, you have people who are

673
00:36:23,560 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 5: really good at inventing things, so they're coming up with

674
00:36:26,160 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 5: the methods and creating the trick, and then a lot

675
00:36:28,239 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 5: of times they will sell the trick and anybody can

676
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 5: buy it right Or for example, if you think about

677
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:38,839
Speaker 5: David Copperfield did this illusion where he seemed to fly

678
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 5: on stage and it genuinely looks like flight. It's incredible,

679
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 5: and then somebody will be like, Okay, I want to

680
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 5: buy that, and he'll hold on to it for a

681
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 5: little bit, and then a couple of years ago he

682
00:36:49,680 --> 00:36:52,279
Speaker 5: was like, okay, it's for sale. And then it could

683
00:36:52,280 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 5: be for one person, it could be for multiple people.

684
00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:57,239
Speaker 5: So people might like how there was kind of the

685
00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,720
Speaker 5: discussion in this movie about oh, can I buy your tricks?

686
00:37:01,440 --> 00:37:04,600
Speaker 5: That's very common. I've been approached by multiple people being

687
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,799
Speaker 5: like can I buy this? Can I buy this? So

688
00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:08,960
Speaker 5: that is a thing. So if you're a good inventor

689
00:37:09,160 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 5: of magic. You are often making a lot of money

690
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:13,319
Speaker 5: selling things you come up with.

691
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:14,080
Speaker 2: Got it?

692
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 5: I would say that, like, it's a fair assumption that

693
00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:21,520
Speaker 5: if somebody is mainly a product creator, they are not

694
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,120
Speaker 5: also a good performer. So there is kind of like

695
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:29,279
Speaker 5: a very distinct inventor or performer type of magician. But

696
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 5: doesn't mean that many people can't blend the two. But

697
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:34,719
Speaker 5: you do tend to see like, oh, like, I'm not

698
00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,279
Speaker 5: a good inventor of magic. That's just not what I do.

699
00:37:37,520 --> 00:37:40,360
Speaker 5: But I'm I'm a good entertainer, so that's where my

700
00:37:40,440 --> 00:37:43,440
Speaker 5: focus is. So I'm the person buying the effects and

701
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:46,120
Speaker 5: then making them my own, but doing them in a

702
00:37:46,120 --> 00:37:48,320
Speaker 5: fun and entertaining way. So it does make sense that

703
00:37:48,400 --> 00:37:50,560
Speaker 5: somebody will be like, I came up with this brilliant trick,

704
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,239
Speaker 5: but man, I cannot sell it on stage as much

705
00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 5: as I want to. It's this pretty pretty legit.

706
00:37:56,239 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: Okay, follow up question the way that if you're writing

707
00:38:00,520 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 2: a novel or any book or screenplay or anything like that,

708
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:08,399
Speaker 2: you copyright it to protect it, and then if you're

709
00:38:08,440 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: like perhaps trying to adapt a book to film, you

710
00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,799
Speaker 2: would like sell the rights to it. Is there a

711
00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:17,399
Speaker 2: similar kind of thing where like you copyright a magic trick,

712
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,040
Speaker 2: or like, how do those things get protected?

713
00:38:20,600 --> 00:38:25,080
Speaker 5: They don't. You cannot copyright. Yeah it legally, you cannot

714
00:38:25,120 --> 00:38:28,000
Speaker 5: copyright magic. So how it works if you want to

715
00:38:28,040 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 5: do somebody else's material is a magician could create something.

716
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:33,840
Speaker 5: So Teller is a good example of Penn and Teller,

717
00:38:33,880 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 5: who created this really amazing piece called Shadows, which is

718
00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:41,600
Speaker 5: worth a YouTube watch at some point it's it's very beautiful.

719
00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:47,319
Speaker 5: He does that some magician I don't remember where he's from,

720
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:50,200
Speaker 5: but a different magician, not from the US, seals the

721
00:38:50,280 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 5: routine but hypothetically is doing it in a different way.

722
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 5: So you don't know how Teller's trick is done. He's

723
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 5: never sold it. There is mystery to the method. So

724
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,840
Speaker 5: this other magician does it, but it looks the same,

725
00:39:02,960 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 5: it's just done in a different way. So Teller was

726
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:11,880
Speaker 5: able to copyright the script and the choreography around the routine,

727
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:15,560
Speaker 5: which meant what this other magician was doing. Teller was

728
00:39:15,600 --> 00:39:19,000
Speaker 5: able to sue and ultimately win that case because this

729
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 5: other magician was doing the thing that was copywritten. I see,

730
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,960
Speaker 5: which is right. But if it's method, no, there's nothing

731
00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:27,759
Speaker 5: you can do the.

732
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,920
Speaker 2: Same way that you can't copyright an idea for a story.

733
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 2: You can only copyright like written text yep, if you

734
00:39:34,160 --> 00:39:35,759
Speaker 2: have written the story down yep.

735
00:39:36,320 --> 00:39:37,520
Speaker 5: Exactly How do.

736
00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 3: You and how does the magic community feel about that?

737
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:43,759
Speaker 3: Is that like a net positive or is it a

738
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:45,799
Speaker 3: polarizing thing? That's so fascinating.

739
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:49,239
Speaker 5: So it's a bit polarizing, but I think everybody does

740
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:52,799
Speaker 5: kind of come to the same general ending place, which

741
00:39:52,840 --> 00:39:54,440
Speaker 5: is it would be great if we could do that.

742
00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,200
Speaker 5: There was a bill that went to Congress at one

743
00:39:57,200 --> 00:39:59,799
Speaker 5: point that was trying to make magic classified as an

744
00:39:59,880 --> 00:40:03,200
Speaker 5: art in terms of law, but ultimately it didn't go

745
00:40:03,280 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 5: anywhere unfortunately. I don't know why that happened, but it

746
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,320
Speaker 5: just it went to a different committee and then ceased

747
00:40:09,400 --> 00:40:13,120
Speaker 5: to exist. And so the way the magic community kind

748
00:40:13,120 --> 00:40:16,320
Speaker 5: of goes about doing this is just it's a small community.

749
00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 5: So if somebody steals your stuff, we're all going to

750
00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 5: know about it, right, especially if you steal somebody's stuff

751
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 5: that we all know, Oh yeah, we watched this guy

752
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:27,480
Speaker 5: all the time, and then all of a sudden somebody

753
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:29,839
Speaker 5: else is doing it. We're like, wait a minute. And

754
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 5: it is very easy for somebody to sort of get

755
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 5: black bald for a bit.

756
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 3: In the magic world, it's like jokes stealing basically.

757
00:40:38,239 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 5: Yeah yeah, and we're like if you do a new

758
00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 5: stand up set but it's not filmed or recorded, and

759
00:40:44,880 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 5: then somebody else does those jokes, you have to kind

760
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:50,520
Speaker 5: of be like, well, I know those are mine, but

761
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 5: how do I prove it? I don't know. So it's

762
00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 5: exactly the same with magic, is like, unless you have proof,

763
00:40:55,800 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 5: unless you have video or anything that shows that you

764
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 5: did it, it's very difficult to be like, wait, that's mine.

765
00:41:04,040 --> 00:41:06,759
Speaker 5: So it is very much alike the community holds you

766
00:41:06,880 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 5: morally responsible for doing things, but that doesn't mean it's stoppable.

767
00:41:11,880 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 3: Right, God, that's so frustrating. Yes, but it does, I

768
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:20,160
Speaker 3: don't know, feeds into a problem that drives me personally

769
00:41:20,719 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 3: up a wall about live performance right now, which is

770
00:41:23,200 --> 00:41:26,120
Speaker 3: like that it's so because there is such a pressure

771
00:41:26,239 --> 00:41:29,680
Speaker 3: to be constantly filming and documenting and having proof that

772
00:41:29,719 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 3: it makes it really hard to like workshop something and

773
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:38,440
Speaker 3: like refine material, which well whatever, I'm like changing this up,

774
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:40,799
Speaker 3: but which in comedy is why I think crowd work

775
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,600
Speaker 3: is so popular right now because you cannot possibly work

776
00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:46,960
Speaker 3: on it and the directive of the algorithm is to

777
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:49,680
Speaker 3: just produce as much as possible and not actually like

778
00:41:49,920 --> 00:41:54,719
Speaker 3: refine material. God, well, that is very I feel like

779
00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:57,880
Speaker 3: I'm going to fall down a research rabbit hole about

780
00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,880
Speaker 3: copywriting magic tricks. That's really interesting.

781
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:03,239
Speaker 5: Yeah, unfortunately it will be the shallowest rabbit hole you've

782
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,520
Speaker 5: ever been down, because there was just nothing. There's just

783
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 5: no things. I will say that, like, especially with the

784
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:13,120
Speaker 5: Internet now, it's very helpful. So this just happened to

785
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 5: a friend of mine and without naming any names, like

786
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 5: it happened his stuff got stolen. He is very well

787
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,560
Speaker 5: loved in the magic world, and he tried to handle

788
00:42:21,600 --> 00:42:24,520
Speaker 5: it internally and quietly, and it didn't happen, and so

789
00:42:25,040 --> 00:42:28,160
Speaker 5: he he just went on Facebook and went, this is

790
00:42:28,200 --> 00:42:30,760
Speaker 5: what happened. And now the people that stole his stuff

791
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 5: they've lost work, like they're gone. So it's like, yep,

792
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:38,080
Speaker 5: that's the magic community will for sure hold you responsible.

793
00:42:38,239 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 5: That of course has plus and reminduses somebody could make

794
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:42,440
Speaker 5: an accusation that's false.

795
00:42:42,560 --> 00:42:47,359
Speaker 3: So like but like these divas were constantly sabotaging each other.

796
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:50,879
Speaker 5: Yeah, yep, yeah, that is It's very That's why I'm like, yeah,

797
00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 5: this is a very similar and accurate thing when it

798
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,040
Speaker 5: comes to the personality of magicians. Yeah it is, It

799
00:42:57,120 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 5: really is.

800
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 3: Yeah, Wow, it's great, fascinating. Yeah.

801
00:43:02,000 --> 00:43:07,680
Speaker 2: So Borden has just done his transported man on stage

802
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: for the first time, and Angier is like, how do

803
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:14,960
Speaker 2: I steal this? And the only way that Cutter can

804
00:43:15,040 --> 00:43:19,240
Speaker 2: think that Borden must be doing this trick is by

805
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,480
Speaker 2: using a double, a look alike that comes out of

806
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: the second door. So they get to work on finding

807
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:30,080
Speaker 2: a double who looks like a jeer, and they hire

808
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:33,879
Speaker 2: this guy named mister Root, who is also played by

809
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 2: Hugh Jackman.

810
00:43:35,400 --> 00:43:39,400
Speaker 3: Who is just theater kidding out during these sequences. He's

811
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:41,200
Speaker 3: having so much fun.

812
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 5: I feel like Hugh Jackman was like, hey, listen, I

813
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:49,160
Speaker 5: need this guy to be drunk, to have a mix

814
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,920
Speaker 5: of multiple accents, and I need you to let me

815
00:43:53,000 --> 00:43:55,920
Speaker 5: play him as if there were two thousand people watching

816
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,760
Speaker 5: good and now here we are and it's it's just beautiful,

817
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:02,279
Speaker 5: a theater kid having a great time.

818
00:44:02,480 --> 00:44:06,520
Speaker 3: I do love I not every huge Ackman performance is

819
00:44:06,560 --> 00:44:10,480
Speaker 3: for me, but I do love how consistently he just like,

820
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:14,640
Speaker 3: you know, he's versatile, he can do something serious but

821
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:18,760
Speaker 3: it's not his preference. He would rather be doing something silly.

822
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:21,279
Speaker 3: He would rather be wearing tap shoes. And I love

823
00:44:21,320 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 3: that quality in a person. I love that he and

824
00:44:24,480 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 3: Sutton Foster together too, like just link up of the century.

825
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:29,279
Speaker 2: I love them.

826
00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 3: Wow.

827
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:36,760
Speaker 2: So they find mister Root and they perform their version

828
00:44:36,840 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: of the Transported Man, and the audience loves it. The

829
00:44:41,600 --> 00:44:45,080
Speaker 2: only trouble is that it's Root who comes out of

830
00:44:45,080 --> 00:44:50,280
Speaker 2: the second door as Ajeer falls through a trapdoor on stage,

831
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 2: so it's Root who gets all of the applause and recognition.

832
00:44:55,000 --> 00:44:59,840
Speaker 2: So Angeer is not satisfied with this. He tells Olivia,

833
00:45:00,400 --> 00:45:05,680
Speaker 2: his assistant, who he is now also smooching, to go

834
00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 2: work for Borden so that she can discover Bordon's secret

835
00:45:10,600 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 2: and tell it to Ajeer so that he doesn't have

836
00:45:13,520 --> 00:45:17,799
Speaker 2: to keep relying on the drunken mister Root, who is

837
00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 2: becoming more and more unreliable, which it turns out Borden

838
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 2: is behind because Borden has been going to mister Root

839
00:45:27,160 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 2: and encouraging him to make demands and blackmail and Jeer

840
00:45:32,360 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: because Borden is still hell bent on sabotaging and Jeer

841
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:36,840
Speaker 2: and his career.

842
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:39,480
Speaker 3: It is so fun that Root's character has made to

843
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 3: seem so like thick that he needs to have the

844
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 3: idea to sabotage be given to him by another character.

845
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 3: I thought that was very funny. Yes, like it's a

846
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:52,400
Speaker 3: very broad performance, and like I think in a different

847
00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,880
Speaker 3: movie it would be like, well, how are we portraying addiction?

848
00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:57,640
Speaker 3: But that's just like so far from what the goal

849
00:45:57,719 --> 00:45:59,880
Speaker 3: of this movie is. That it's like we're looking at

850
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:04,279
Speaker 3: a cartoon character and I'm smiling.

851
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 5: This same This is also one of those things that's like, wow,

852
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:12,720
Speaker 5: this is oddly accurate in terms of like sabotage, especially

853
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:15,240
Speaker 5: for the time period. So Minerva, who I mentioned earlier,

854
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:18,239
Speaker 5: was an escape artist, and she was very famous for

855
00:46:18,440 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 5: this thing called a milk can escape where basically it's

856
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:24,239
Speaker 5: like this, you know, kind of mini water torture tank,

857
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 5: but you can't see through it. So not the one

858
00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 5: that I was seen this movie, but little and so

859
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:30,799
Speaker 5: you have to get inside and then you got to

860
00:46:31,080 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 5: get out somehow and annoyingly at the same time, Harry

861
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 5: Houdini was very well known for that effect, but not

862
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:42,879
Speaker 5: as well known as Minerva. And although the proof is

863
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:47,360
Speaker 5: very much up to interpretation, it is understood that Houdini

864
00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:50,400
Speaker 5: had some guys go and rig her milk can escape,

865
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 5: so she could not get out of it, very similar

866
00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:56,279
Speaker 5: to how like the knot might have been tied incorrectly

867
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,240
Speaker 5: like that, So she did almost die like a small

868
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,200
Speaker 5: handful of times hypothetically due to Houdini paying some guys

869
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,799
Speaker 5: to go do it. So it's for sure a big thing,

870
00:47:09,440 --> 00:47:13,520
Speaker 5: especially in the mid late eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds.

871
00:47:13,760 --> 00:47:16,200
Speaker 5: For sure, this was like the idea of magicians sabotaging

872
00:47:16,239 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 5: each other was just like the game. It was just, Oh,

873
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,880
Speaker 5: if you're gonna do this as a career, get ready,

874
00:47:21,280 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 5: someone's gonna try to mess me.

875
00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: The stakes are high. Yep, you might die.

876
00:47:25,920 --> 00:47:28,759
Speaker 3: Was this period of time like it seems to me?

877
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:31,560
Speaker 3: And this is also I'm pulling from like doing a

878
00:47:31,600 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 3: lot of researcher on spiritualism and like Huddi's weirdo relationship

879
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:41,479
Speaker 3: with Sir Arthur Conan Doyle and like that whole thing.

880
00:47:41,960 --> 00:47:44,799
Speaker 3: But like, is this this appears to me or is

881
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:48,160
Speaker 3: this a media thing? Appears that Victorian England is a

882
00:47:48,200 --> 00:47:51,160
Speaker 3: specifically popular time for magic. Is that true or is

883
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 3: that just how we see it in media?

884
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:56,040
Speaker 5: No, it's very true. So like kind of going, let's

885
00:47:56,080 --> 00:48:00,880
Speaker 5: just say between eighteen fifty to nineteen ten, it was

886
00:48:01,320 --> 00:48:06,040
Speaker 5: super popular. Magic was very much on the rise, and

887
00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:08,840
Speaker 5: it was very common for magicians, like a solo performer

888
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 5: to be touring the country or even the world. And

889
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 5: in some aspect, I think what is often kind of

890
00:48:16,040 --> 00:48:17,960
Speaker 5: missed here is you had a lot of performers like

891
00:48:18,040 --> 00:48:21,439
Speaker 5: so Dante was where I believe they got the name

892
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:27,720
Speaker 5: that Hugh Jackman chooses the Great Danton. The Great Dante

893
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:30,000
Speaker 5: was like a that was a guy that performed magic

894
00:48:30,040 --> 00:48:33,759
Speaker 5: at that time. You have Houdini, you have Keller and Thurston.

895
00:48:34,520 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 5: But the one thing that they're missing most media is

896
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,080
Speaker 5: missing is the extent of women that were equally as

897
00:48:41,080 --> 00:48:43,520
Speaker 5: famous as all of the guys during the shows. And

898
00:48:43,600 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 5: so you've looked at like spiritualism. So the Fox sisters,

899
00:48:46,960 --> 00:48:48,080
Speaker 5: that's massive.

900
00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 3: They were excellent magicians.

901
00:48:50,400 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, excellent magicians and like incredible story.

902
00:48:54,160 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 3: My spiritualists are going to kick me in the head.

903
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 3: But yes, excellent magicians.

904
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 5: Yep. And what's also which is kind of crazy, is

905
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:02,839
Speaker 5: a lot of time I will get asked, oh, hey,

906
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,760
Speaker 5: what uh like do you have some sort of psychic power?

907
00:49:05,800 --> 00:49:08,719
Speaker 5: Are you connected to another realm? Is that how you

908
00:49:08,760 --> 00:49:11,799
Speaker 5: can do what you do? It's like no, but if

909
00:49:11,840 --> 00:49:14,200
Speaker 5: you if you show me a psychic or if you

910
00:49:14,200 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 5: show me anybody that kind of pretends to do that,

911
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,960
Speaker 5: I can replicate it equally as convincing. So the Fox

912
00:49:20,960 --> 00:49:23,400
Speaker 5: Sisters and I know that folks that are in this

913
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 5: spiritualism movement, Yeah, for sure they're gonna they would get

914
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:29,480
Speaker 5: mad at me saying that. And that's okay because that

915
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:31,360
Speaker 5: is just the thing I can do. And so the

916
00:49:31,400 --> 00:49:34,360
Speaker 5: Fox Sisters were of that same time, and they admitted

917
00:49:34,840 --> 00:49:38,319
Speaker 5: that everything was wrong, that they didn't do anything. Oh,

918
00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:41,719
Speaker 5: this was all magic. They're incredible conditions, which they did

919
00:49:41,960 --> 00:49:46,279
Speaker 5: open up a gigantic gap for other women to do

920
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 5: very similar things or just like adjacent things. So for sure,

921
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:53,320
Speaker 5: the Fox Sisters have like contributed a lot to magic.

922
00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 3: There was another Oh my gosh, I think Mina Cranton

923
00:49:57,760 --> 00:50:03,760
Speaker 3: was another character that was really associated with the Spiritualist movement,

924
00:50:03,880 --> 00:50:06,440
Speaker 3: but was sort of revealed to be an excellent magician

925
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,799
Speaker 3: who also was beefing with Harry Houdini. Harry Houdini just

926
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 3: was beefing with anyone and everyone, like inventing additional hours

927
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 3: in the day. But she was doing she was kind

928
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,520
Speaker 3: of doing some like pussy magic. She was doing some

929
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 3: some weird stuff.

930
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:23,640
Speaker 2: Yeah.

931
00:50:23,760 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 3: She was like, oh, this is from your dead husband

932
00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:26,839
Speaker 3: and then pulls something out of her poot.

933
00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 2: You're like, yep, it was a lot oh literal pussy magic. Yes, yes,

934
00:50:30,560 --> 00:50:31,880
Speaker 2: pulling things out of her vagina.

935
00:50:32,440 --> 00:50:34,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I'm not That's not a euphemism. It was

936
00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 3: just like what she was up to.

937
00:50:36,880 --> 00:50:38,400
Speaker 2: I was like, what do you mean by that?

938
00:50:38,800 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 3: And now I get it magic of the pussy. Yeah,

939
00:50:43,160 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 3: I guess. I'm like, I'm feeling for what is worth.

940
00:50:46,360 --> 00:50:49,719
Speaker 3: If anyone listening is interested in spiritualism, I'm not disowning it.

941
00:50:49,760 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 3: I do believe in elements of it, but just early

942
00:50:52,320 --> 00:50:56,520
Speaker 3: spiritualist there's there's a lot of you know, bells and

943
00:50:56,520 --> 00:51:00,879
Speaker 3: whistles and no need to deny it.

944
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:01,239
Speaker 2: You know.

945
00:51:01,680 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't hate us because it's impressive. It's impressive.

946
00:51:04,560 --> 00:51:07,640
Speaker 3: It's impressive, you know, like sometimes for women to get by,

947
00:51:07,719 --> 00:51:09,240
Speaker 3: they had to start a religion.

948
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:12,719
Speaker 2: Check out Ghost Church for more information.

949
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 3: Yeah.

950
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: Okay, So, so Borden is now sabotaging and Jeer's transported

951
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:25,200
Speaker 2: man trick because he's upset about Anger having stolen it,

952
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 2: and Borden hires Olivia kind of at Angeer's insistence, but

953
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:35,800
Speaker 2: there's all this like she's kind of flip flopping all around.

954
00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,600
Speaker 2: But she goes to work for Bordon and she steals

955
00:51:39,760 --> 00:51:44,279
Speaker 2: Bordon's diary and gives it to Angeer. But it's a

956
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:49,319
Speaker 2: cipher written in code, so Angier's like, I don't know

957
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: how to read it. It's going to take months to decode,

958
00:51:52,040 --> 00:51:55,160
Speaker 2: and I don't even have the secret keyword. So he

959
00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 2: kidnaps Fallen, the mysterious man who's the designer of Bordon's tricks,

960
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 2: but Fallon refuses to talk, and so to get Fallen back,

961
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 2: Borden gives Angier the keyword to decode his cipher diary.

962
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 2: And the Kenny word is Tesla.

963
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:18,680
Speaker 3: Okay, and that is very, that feels very. The Da

964
00:52:18,760 --> 00:52:22,719
Speaker 3: Vinci code is apple to be but much like Da

965
00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 3: Vinci code, I'm nodding, I'm like, yes.

966
00:52:24,880 --> 00:52:30,640
Speaker 2: Exactly, exactly yes. So this is what prompts a Jeer

967
00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 2: to go to Colorado and commission Tesla to build him

968
00:52:35,600 --> 00:52:39,160
Speaker 2: a magic machine. And while he's waiting for it to

969
00:52:39,200 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: be completed, Angier finally finishes decoding Bordon's diary, only to

970
00:52:45,239 --> 00:52:50,000
Speaker 2: discover that Borden wanted Angier to have his diary to

971
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 2: taunt him and be like, my secret's not in this diary,

972
00:52:54,920 --> 00:52:56,000
Speaker 2: you bitch.

973
00:52:55,920 --> 00:52:58,080
Speaker 3: And oh, do you think that's the last time this

974
00:52:58,160 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 3: is going to happen in this movie? Because no, not

975
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 3: even close.

976
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. So, Tesla meanwhile has been testing out the machine

977
00:53:08,480 --> 00:53:11,400
Speaker 2: that he has built, but it doesn't seem to work

978
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 2: because it zaps a top hat or a cat, but

979
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:20,160
Speaker 2: whatever the result is supposed to be, it's not working

980
00:53:20,760 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 2: or doesn't seem to be working until Angeer goes outside

981
00:53:26,600 --> 00:53:29,400
Speaker 2: and sees a pile of top hats and a couple

982
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:30,720
Speaker 2: spare cats.

983
00:53:31,040 --> 00:53:34,640
Speaker 3: The cat scene cracked me up that, like, in most

984
00:53:34,640 --> 00:53:37,799
Speaker 3: ways this movie ages very well looks wise, but the

985
00:53:37,880 --> 00:53:43,600
Speaker 3: Tesla coil fx are like, oh oh, two thousand and six.

986
00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,080
Speaker 3: It's like, clearly just a cat sitting in front of

987
00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,960
Speaker 3: like a green screen or something, and then seeing like

988
00:53:48,040 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 3: the look like you see a cat getting electricated. It's alarming,

989
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 3: but funny.

990
00:53:52,920 --> 00:53:55,439
Speaker 2: It is goofy looking, it is fun So we see

991
00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:59,000
Speaker 2: all of these replicas of the hats and the cats,

992
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:04,000
Speaker 2: and we realize that the machine duplicates whatever you put

993
00:54:04,040 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 2: in it, it's just that it shoots out the replica

994
00:54:07,400 --> 00:54:09,759
Speaker 2: at the wrong place. So now Tesla just needs to

995
00:54:09,760 --> 00:54:13,040
Speaker 2: make some adjustments to fix that, and he does, and

996
00:54:13,080 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: he gives the machine to Angeer, who starts testing it

997
00:54:17,520 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 2: out on himself for his transported man trick. We cut

998
00:54:23,160 --> 00:54:28,080
Speaker 2: back to Borden in prison where he is awaiting execution,

999
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 2: and he decides to give up his tricks, or at

1000
00:54:33,239 --> 00:54:38,760
Speaker 2: least part of them, to that solicitor who represents Lord

1001
00:54:39,120 --> 00:54:43,040
Speaker 2: cold Law, who we find out is like a collector

1002
00:54:43,320 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: of magic secrets in paraphernalia. Then we flash back to

1003
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:54,600
Speaker 2: Borden and his wife Sarah, who is emotionally tormented that

1004
00:54:54,719 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 2: Borden seems to only love her half of the time,

1005
00:54:59,160 --> 00:55:02,560
Speaker 2: and she I can't take it anymore, and she dies

1006
00:55:02,560 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 2: by suicide.

1007
00:55:03,760 --> 00:55:08,840
Speaker 3: This is an evil choice, an evil choice. We've already

1008
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:11,520
Speaker 3: killed off one wife to further the plot, and now

1009
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:14,320
Speaker 3: we have done it a second time. We'll talk more

1010
00:55:14,719 --> 00:55:18,280
Speaker 3: about Sarah because I feel like she She and Olivia

1011
00:55:18,320 --> 00:55:22,200
Speaker 3: are both characters I thought had a lot of promise

1012
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:25,080
Speaker 3: and could have. I mean, first of all, I mean

1013
00:55:25,120 --> 00:55:27,759
Speaker 3: I just love Rebeccahle also and I think like her

1014
00:55:27,800 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 3: performance is one of my favorites in this movie. But

1015
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,320
Speaker 3: the fact that it's like it's kind of can't be

1016
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:36,960
Speaker 3: but also really deeply sad that it's established from the

1017
00:55:36,960 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 3: first time this character appears. She's like, you know what's wild?

1018
00:55:39,920 --> 00:55:43,560
Speaker 3: You don't love me sometimes, and that is just the

1019
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,080
Speaker 3: reality that she lives with. It's paid off. Keep listening,

1020
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:50,759
Speaker 3: but it's so depressing, and you're like, wow, that is

1021
00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:52,439
Speaker 3: sometimes what it feels like to be in a bad

1022
00:55:52,480 --> 00:55:54,680
Speaker 3: relationship as a woman. You're like, well, what do you do?

1023
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:59,800
Speaker 3: I'm Mark, It's like eighteen whatever. I have no option

1024
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:03,120
Speaker 3: in the world, So I guess I just have to

1025
00:56:03,200 --> 00:56:06,120
Speaker 3: deal with this. I don't know if you've ever dated

1026
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:08,799
Speaker 3: a comic or someone else you know, of the of

1027
00:56:08,840 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 3: the dork arts, you're like this more than me. Seriously,

1028
00:56:13,800 --> 00:56:15,640
Speaker 3: you know I've been on both sides of that. Actually,

1029
00:56:16,880 --> 00:56:17,360
Speaker 3: what do you do?

1030
00:56:17,680 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 2: What can one do?

1031
00:56:19,440 --> 00:56:20,319
Speaker 3: Just dump them?

1032
00:56:20,360 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 5: Don't don't date a magician.

1033
00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:26,000
Speaker 2: Don't date magicians, don't date comedian d don't date actors.

1034
00:56:26,600 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 3: We are toxic people. Stay away away from us, leave

1035
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:33,800
Speaker 3: us to fuck each other to death in peace.

1036
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1037
00:56:37,360 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 2: Okay. So Meanwhile, and Jeer is staging one last show

1038
00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:48,360
Speaker 2: where he will perform the quote unquote real transported Man

1039
00:56:49,000 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: using the machine that Tesla built for him, which zaps

1040
00:56:52,640 --> 00:56:57,000
Speaker 2: him with electricity, duplicates him, and then shoots the duplicate

1041
00:56:57,080 --> 00:57:00,319
Speaker 2: out into another part of the theater, and he does

1042
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:03,319
Speaker 2: the trick for the first time in front of a

1043
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:09,040
Speaker 2: big audience, and the crowd is loving it, which infuriates

1044
00:57:09,120 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: Borden because he and Fallen not only have had their

1045
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:17,280
Speaker 2: tricks stolen, but they can't figure out how Angier does

1046
00:57:17,440 --> 00:57:21,720
Speaker 2: this version of the trick, so Borden starts investigating, and

1047
00:57:21,760 --> 00:57:23,600
Speaker 2: then we see the scene that we saw at the

1048
00:57:23,640 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 2: beginning of the movie where Borden sneaks backstage and sees

1049
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 2: Anger fall into the water tank and drown, only this

1050
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:36,920
Speaker 2: time we see Borden try to save Angeer, so it

1051
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:41,120
Speaker 2: would seem as though Borden did not kill him. Then

1052
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:45,920
Speaker 2: we get a reveal that Angier did this to frame

1053
00:57:46,240 --> 00:57:52,800
Speaker 2: Borden and ruin his life because Anger is alive because

1054
00:57:52,840 --> 00:57:56,000
Speaker 2: he got duplicated by the machine and he's living in

1055
00:57:56,040 --> 00:58:01,480
Speaker 2: secret as the mysterious lord called Law who pays a

1056
00:58:01,560 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 2: visit to Borden in prison, and Borden is like wait

1057
00:58:05,360 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 2: a minute. This is the man I was convicted of killing.

1058
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,400
Speaker 2: So if he's alive, I'm not guilty, but no one

1059
00:58:12,680 --> 00:58:14,560
Speaker 2: gives a shit whatever.

1060
00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:17,720
Speaker 3: Too bad, bitch, which is true of the justice system

1061
00:58:17,800 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 3: in general.

1062
00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:23,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. Absolutely. Then we get another reveal that Fallen and

1063
00:58:23,520 --> 00:58:31,480
Speaker 2: Borden are identical twin brothers, where one would live as

1064
00:58:31,680 --> 00:58:35,800
Speaker 2: Alfred Borden, the magician who was married to Sarah and

1065
00:58:36,160 --> 00:58:42,640
Speaker 2: has a daughter, the other as Fallen, the engineer who

1066
00:58:43,160 --> 00:58:45,919
Speaker 2: wore a disguise to obscure the fact that he looks

1067
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 2: exactly like the other Bordon. And they would take turns

1068
00:58:49,680 --> 00:58:54,320
Speaker 2: and switch places and kind of both live these double lives. Yeah,

1069
00:58:54,400 --> 00:58:56,680
Speaker 2: and this is how they did such a convincing transported

1070
00:58:56,720 --> 00:58:59,640
Speaker 2: man trick. And this is also why Borden only seemed

1071
00:58:59,680 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 2: to lie his wife half of the time.

1072
00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:04,960
Speaker 3: I know, And it's like he's like a magician, never

1073
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:06,120
Speaker 3: reveals his secrets.

1074
00:59:06,160 --> 00:59:08,000
Speaker 2: And I was like, but but you can do it,

1075
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:10,600
Speaker 2: reveal it to your wife just once.

1076
00:59:11,160 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 3: She's good for it. You know, she's never she's never leaked, Olivia,

1077
00:59:16,160 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 3: she's leaky, She's she's leaky. But look, she's just trying

1078
00:59:19,600 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 3: to get by another character who very much just jettisoned

1079
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 3: from the movie kind of in the third actor, like

1080
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 3: where did she go?

1081
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:28,160
Speaker 2: Where's Olivia?

1082
00:59:28,200 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 3: But well, but the reveal, what do we think of

1083
00:59:30,840 --> 00:59:33,080
Speaker 3: the reveal? I think by that point I've just been

1084
00:59:33,200 --> 00:59:36,880
Speaker 3: so like run over by the truck of the plot

1085
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 3: of this movie that I'm like, yeah, sure, so nice.

1086
00:59:41,640 --> 00:59:43,720
Speaker 2: The first time I saw the movie, I was like,

1087
00:59:43,800 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 2: holy fucking shit. I didn't see that coming at all.

1088
00:59:47,720 --> 00:59:50,280
Speaker 2: But now looking back on it, I'm like, that is

1089
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 2: the goofiest reveal of all time, Like, of course they're twins,

1090
00:59:54,080 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 2: like de doy it seems so silly and obvious.

1091
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:01,720
Speaker 5: Now it's closest movie was not made for magicians to

1092
01:00:02,040 --> 01:00:06,280
Speaker 5: like it because for so many reasons. But that was

1093
01:00:06,320 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 5: the That was the first thing that I thought the

1094
01:00:08,600 --> 01:00:11,600
Speaker 5: first time I watched it was like, twins.

1095
01:00:10,600 --> 01:00:12,840
Speaker 3: Oh, because that's a real.

1096
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:14,640
Speaker 5: Thing the magicians do. So it's like, oh, yeah, that

1097
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:18,560
Speaker 5: makes sense. Is it not twins? Oh it's twins? Okay, cool,

1098
01:00:18,840 --> 01:00:19,920
Speaker 5: Like we met nothing.

1099
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 3: Twins are common in magic?

1100
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:25,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean are a lot of magicians twins? Now?

1101
01:00:25,600 --> 01:00:28,560
Speaker 5: Do magicians who have a twin make their twins magic?

1102
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 2: Yes?

1103
01:00:29,360 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 4: Wow?

1104
01:00:30,520 --> 01:00:34,439
Speaker 5: Yo? Whoa yep? I can think of three right now

1105
01:00:34,480 --> 01:00:37,320
Speaker 5: that I've like personally watched use their twin.

1106
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:39,160
Speaker 2: Do people know that they have a twin or is

1107
01:00:39,160 --> 01:00:40,120
Speaker 2: that part of the secret.

1108
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:42,000
Speaker 5: No, that's part of the They try to tea up

1109
01:00:42,120 --> 01:00:43,600
Speaker 5: under wraps as best as possible.

1110
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:48,320
Speaker 3: Whoa, Also, that's it's I'm just like, I'm so curious

1111
01:00:48,320 --> 01:00:51,280
Speaker 3: of Like, man, you've really got to maintain the relationship

1112
01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:53,440
Speaker 3: with your twin for that to work. Like, hope you

1113
01:00:53,440 --> 01:00:55,320
Speaker 3: guys don't get in a fight or one of you

1114
01:00:55,440 --> 01:00:56,320
Speaker 3: is unemployed.

1115
01:00:56,640 --> 01:00:59,560
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean same with like, if you have an assistant, true,

1116
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 5: you better treat god assistant real well.

1117
01:01:02,720 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: True Arena, they're gonna do to you what Root does

1118
01:01:06,840 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 2: to Anger and sabotage his little tricks. Okay, so we're

1119
01:01:12,520 --> 01:01:16,000
Speaker 2: almost done. Well, you get the reveal that there are

1120
01:01:16,040 --> 01:01:21,720
Speaker 2: two Burdens and they're both living dual lives as either

1121
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 2: Borden or Fallon. One of the Bordens is executed while

1122
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:32,240
Speaker 2: the other one approaches Angeer and shoots him the angier

1123
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 2: that did survive the transported man trick.

1124
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:38,600
Speaker 3: But don't forget his dying word is abracadabra.

1125
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:45,320
Speaker 2: Bordens is yes, yes, I hate it, so goofy. They're

1126
01:01:45,360 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 2: like any last words and then a pregnant pause and

1127
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:50,600
Speaker 2: then ABC that.

1128
01:01:50,640 --> 01:01:53,120
Speaker 3: Is like executing a comic and then having that be

1129
01:01:53,200 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 3: like is this thing and then getting.

1130
01:01:56,560 --> 01:01:58,400
Speaker 5: Dropped like yeah, I can't.

1131
01:01:58,480 --> 01:02:01,560
Speaker 3: I have to imagine as a magician, you gotta be like,

1132
01:02:01,800 --> 01:02:05,920
Speaker 3: come on, guys, come on. It was We're not like that.

1133
01:02:06,360 --> 01:02:08,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, there are a couple of other options that I

1134
01:02:08,920 --> 01:02:10,200
Speaker 5: thought would have been nice.

1135
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,680
Speaker 2: But yeah, al kazam for example, no, I'm kidding an option.

1136
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 2: I did laugh a lot at the part where there's

1137
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:22,640
Speaker 2: this guy who runs a venue that has given Angier

1138
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:26,439
Speaker 2: like a week long run to prove that he's got

1139
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 2: what it takes. And during the first show, that's when

1140
01:02:30,120 --> 01:02:32,800
Speaker 2: Borden comes on stage to sabotage him and kill the bird.

1141
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 2: So the venue runner has to like boot Angier from

1142
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:40,760
Speaker 2: the venue, and he says like, I've hired a comedian

1143
01:02:40,840 --> 01:02:44,400
Speaker 2: to replace you. You know I hate comedians, and I

1144
01:02:44,440 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: was like, ah, exactin yeah, okay, so we've gotten all

1145
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:55,920
Speaker 2: these big reveals the remaining Borden shoots and Jeer, and

1146
01:02:56,280 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 2: in Angeer's dying monologue, he's like, oh my god, what

1147
01:03:01,840 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 2: I can't believe it, and then he reveals that every

1148
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:09,560
Speaker 2: time he did his transported man trick, he would murder

1149
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 2: the duplicate, the one that wasn't part of the prestige.

1150
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:18,080
Speaker 2: So he has killed various clones of himself and then

1151
01:03:18,160 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 2: Angier dies and Borden, the remaining Bourdon, returns home and

1152
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:27,320
Speaker 2: reunites with his young daughter Jess, who again Angier had

1153
01:03:27,480 --> 01:03:30,760
Speaker 2: stolen when the other Bourdon was sent to prison.

1154
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,160
Speaker 3: And so he had to do what he had to do.

1155
01:03:34,720 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so this burden coming back, reappearing again is

1156
01:03:40,440 --> 01:03:45,120
Speaker 2: the prestige of the movie. Wow.

1157
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 3: Movie, And.

1158
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,200
Speaker 2: So let's take another quick break and we'll come back

1159
01:03:51,320 --> 01:04:00,200
Speaker 2: to discuss.

1160
01:04:01,800 --> 01:04:02,960
Speaker 3: And we're back.

1161
01:04:03,480 --> 01:04:05,080
Speaker 2: We're back, kileb.

1162
01:04:05,120 --> 01:04:08,040
Speaker 3: Where would you like to start this discussion because I'm

1163
01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:11,360
Speaker 3: curious in hearing more the history. But I'm yeah, what

1164
01:04:11,440 --> 01:04:12,280
Speaker 3: jumps out to you?

1165
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:16,080
Speaker 5: So there are two main elements of this movie that

1166
01:04:16,440 --> 01:04:22,320
Speaker 5: from a magician's perspective, I'm like, no one is. I

1167
01:04:22,400 --> 01:04:27,960
Speaker 5: forget Hugh Jackman's wife's name from the beginning, Julia, Julia.

1168
01:04:28,520 --> 01:04:31,920
Speaker 5: Immediately I didn't understand why she was the escape artist

1169
01:04:31,960 --> 01:04:35,800
Speaker 5: doing this incredible thing, but she never spoke, and this

1170
01:04:35,880 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 5: other magician took all the credit for just like walking

1171
01:04:38,080 --> 01:04:41,880
Speaker 5: around the box, which is a very common theme in magic,

1172
01:04:41,960 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 5: Like a lot of times the assistant who needs to

1173
01:04:44,440 --> 01:04:48,400
Speaker 5: be quite small, often flexible to do the secret of

1174
01:04:48,440 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 5: the trick. He is the one doing all of the

1175
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,880
Speaker 5: work and the magician is just walking around making poses

1176
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 5: like look at this moving boxes and then taking the

1177
01:04:58,040 --> 01:05:01,160
Speaker 5: ninety percent of the applause. But I was just like, well,

1178
01:05:01,200 --> 01:05:03,640
Speaker 5: this is this isn't just an assistant thing. This is like,

1179
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:08,160
Speaker 5: oh no, she's doing an incredible skill, right and getting

1180
01:05:08,440 --> 01:05:10,000
Speaker 5: so little from it.

1181
01:05:10,040 --> 01:05:14,720
Speaker 2: The movie like it's one thing for yes, like that

1182
01:05:15,080 --> 01:05:18,320
Speaker 2: happens in real life all the time, where an assistant

1183
01:05:18,520 --> 01:05:21,840
Speaker 2: a woman does a bunch of labor and gets no

1184
01:05:21,920 --> 01:05:25,360
Speaker 2: credit for it. But that's something you could comment on,

1185
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,600
Speaker 2: which the movie does not do. The movie just acts

1186
01:05:28,600 --> 01:05:33,560
Speaker 2: as though she's not a magician. Also, she hasn't really

1187
01:05:33,560 --> 01:05:38,240
Speaker 2: done anything. She doesn't deserve any recognition, which was very disappointing.

1188
01:05:38,520 --> 01:05:40,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I feel like and we get a

1189
01:05:40,120 --> 01:05:44,200
Speaker 3: similar like I don't know, Yeah, I think that truly.

1190
01:05:44,440 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 3: That's one of the areas where you're like, all Christopher

1191
01:05:47,440 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 3: Nolan knows how to do is kill a wife. Because

1192
01:05:51,880 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 3: the story opportunity is literally right there and then instead

1193
01:05:55,240 --> 01:05:58,360
Speaker 3: her death, this's the inciting incident for the story instead

1194
01:05:58,480 --> 01:06:02,120
Speaker 3: of I mean and I so when the Scarlet Johansson

1195
01:06:02,240 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 3: character came along, Scarlett had we talked, I forget what

1196
01:06:05,560 --> 01:06:09,040
Speaker 3: movie we last saw her in, but Unrepented Zionist sucks.

1197
01:06:09,760 --> 01:06:13,120
Speaker 3: But when this Scarlett Johansson character comes along, it almost

1198
01:06:13,160 --> 01:06:14,880
Speaker 3: felt like, oh, well, here, you know, and it's a

1199
01:06:14,920 --> 01:06:16,640
Speaker 3: Christopher Nolan movie. I know he's not going to take

1200
01:06:16,640 --> 01:06:20,320
Speaker 3: the opportunity, but here is an opportunity to maybe rectify

1201
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 3: how Julia's character was treated, because she is also presented

1202
01:06:23,720 --> 01:06:27,760
Speaker 3: in an assistant capacity to begin with, but she's got

1203
01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 3: opinions on things which Julia didn't really seem to have.

1204
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:35,320
Speaker 3: She is sort of trying to play these divas against

1205
01:06:35,320 --> 01:06:39,520
Speaker 3: each other and to benefit on her own. And it's like, now,

1206
01:06:39,560 --> 01:06:42,640
Speaker 3: knowing what you're saying, Kayla, is that like this was

1207
01:06:42,680 --> 01:06:45,240
Speaker 3: a time where a woman could it would have been difficult,

1208
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:49,440
Speaker 3: but could conceivably have been a very famous magician. That's like,

1209
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:51,800
Speaker 3: I mean, it's a different movie, but that's like I

1210
01:06:51,840 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 3: think that there is room to ingratiate Olivia into this

1211
01:06:56,760 --> 01:07:00,200
Speaker 3: complex Bizarro plot, and like she would have been a

1212
01:07:00,320 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 3: useful red Herring for a lot of stuff in this movie,

1213
01:07:03,920 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 3: but she kind of just slowly disappears. And then you

1214
01:07:06,920 --> 01:07:10,120
Speaker 3: see what often happens in movies of this time, in

1215
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 3: Christopher Nolan movies, where it's this like, she becomes a

1216
01:07:13,480 --> 01:07:16,560
Speaker 3: plot device, she becomes a reflection of the dead wife.

1217
01:07:16,680 --> 01:07:20,120
Speaker 3: She become like the reveal involves her, but mostly as

1218
01:07:20,160 --> 01:07:23,760
Speaker 3: it relates to sexual deception. She has been enduring for

1219
01:07:23,920 --> 01:07:26,880
Speaker 3: years and doesn't know. But it's sucked because it felt

1220
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:30,320
Speaker 3: like Olivia was as like Olivia and Sarah both have

1221
01:07:31,120 --> 01:07:34,560
Speaker 3: interior lives, but only to a point, and the point

1222
01:07:34,760 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 3: is the men.

1223
01:07:37,720 --> 01:07:41,160
Speaker 5: It would have been I think a much more interesting story,

1224
01:07:41,240 --> 01:07:43,800
Speaker 5: even if they included just a small portion of this.

1225
01:07:44,080 --> 01:07:46,000
Speaker 5: So there was a magician of the time. Her name

1226
01:07:46,040 --> 01:07:49,640
Speaker 5: was Adelie Hermann, and she was married to Alexander Hermann,

1227
01:07:49,800 --> 01:07:53,760
Speaker 5: who was the super famous magician. Adelaide was the assistant

1228
01:07:53,760 --> 01:07:56,480
Speaker 5: but also a circus performer. She did a lot of stunts,

1229
01:07:56,760 --> 01:07:58,680
Speaker 5: but she really didn't too much magic. And then her

1230
01:07:58,760 --> 01:08:02,720
Speaker 5: husband died very soddenly, and she went, Okay, I'll just

1231
01:08:02,800 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 5: learn the whole show and did and became super duper famous,

1232
01:08:08,240 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 5: like super deeper famous, more famous than Eudini, more famous,

1233
01:08:12,680 --> 01:08:16,120
Speaker 5: like massively famous, touring the world. That could have been

1234
01:08:16,120 --> 01:08:18,800
Speaker 5: an interesting story to like hear about, you know, a

1235
01:08:18,840 --> 01:08:21,760
Speaker 5: little bit of a subplot of her learning more of

1236
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:23,840
Speaker 5: the show or like anything that would have just made

1237
01:08:23,880 --> 01:08:29,000
Speaker 5: her more than what she was would have been great, right,

1238
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 5: And like I said, there are tons of magicians of

1239
01:08:30,960 --> 01:08:33,320
Speaker 5: that era that it would have been great to just

1240
01:08:33,439 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 5: add in a little bit of their true life to know, Oh, Okay,

1241
01:08:36,640 --> 01:08:40,080
Speaker 5: she's actually like a really good magician, right.

1242
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:42,640
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, And it's like, I mean, from that perspective,

1243
01:08:42,680 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 3: it's like the fact that well, I do like in

1244
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:47,439
Speaker 3: some ways, I think it's like kind of funny and

1245
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:51,240
Speaker 3: clever that they're pulling in Tesla as it being involved

1246
01:08:51,240 --> 01:08:54,519
Speaker 3: in this plot. It's like, well, why bend over backwards

1247
01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:57,160
Speaker 3: to involve Tesla when there were so many, like you're saying,

1248
01:08:57,160 --> 01:08:59,599
Speaker 3: like so many real life figures that would have been

1249
01:09:00,439 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 3: like more realistic and also actually plausible and authentic to

1250
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:09,559
Speaker 3: what was going on at this time. And that I mean,

1251
01:09:09,560 --> 01:09:14,360
Speaker 3: at very very least, like Olivia should be perceived as

1252
01:09:14,400 --> 01:09:17,639
Speaker 3: a threat to these guys, as a potential professional threat.

1253
01:09:18,000 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 3: And I feel like there's a version of this movie

1254
01:09:20,160 --> 01:09:23,559
Speaker 3: where maybe she you know, because she knows both of

1255
01:09:23,600 --> 01:09:27,760
Speaker 3: their acts, so does that stand to make her one

1256
01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:31,120
Speaker 3: of the most like if whether it's dishonest or not, like,

1257
01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 3: one of the most successful acts in the world. But

1258
01:09:33,960 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 3: instead she's like, I love him, you're like.

1259
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,400
Speaker 2: And him being both of them because basically her role

1260
01:09:40,439 --> 01:09:43,760
Speaker 2: in the story eventually just gets relegated to being the

1261
01:09:43,880 --> 01:09:48,120
Speaker 2: romantic interest of both and Jeer and then one of

1262
01:09:48,160 --> 01:09:50,559
Speaker 2: the burdens, and she just kind of gets shuffled back

1263
01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:53,479
Speaker 2: and forth between the two. It's hard for the audience

1264
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 2: to know exactly where her loyalties lie or what that

1265
01:09:57,520 --> 01:10:00,000
Speaker 2: even means for this story. I was kind of losing

1266
01:10:00,120 --> 01:10:03,320
Speaker 2: track of, like who does she love? Who is she

1267
01:10:03,439 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 2: loyal to? If anyone like what is going on there? Yeah,

1268
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:13,839
Speaker 2: what did you think about the line that Cutter says, Kayla,

1269
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:18,840
Speaker 2: where he's like, where they hire Olivia in part because

1270
01:10:18,840 --> 01:10:22,600
Speaker 2: she's attractive, And then Cutter says, a pretty assistant is

1271
01:10:22,640 --> 01:10:26,960
Speaker 2: the most effective form of misdirection thoughts.

1272
01:10:27,479 --> 01:10:31,800
Speaker 5: I mean it's accurate, like a hundred percent. I mean,

1273
01:10:32,200 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 5: a lot of magicians will there are multiple reasons why

1274
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:39,080
Speaker 5: you want to hire an assistant that is captivating regardless

1275
01:10:39,120 --> 01:10:42,800
Speaker 5: of gender. Having an assistant that is truly captivating is key.

1276
01:10:43,200 --> 01:10:46,720
Speaker 5: So a lot of magicians hire dancers because they can

1277
01:10:46,920 --> 01:10:50,080
Speaker 5: grab the attention and it doesn't necessarily need to be

1278
01:10:50,800 --> 01:10:54,479
Speaker 5: while something secret or like the method to the trick

1279
01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:57,760
Speaker 5: is going on. It can literally mean just the assistant

1280
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:02,479
Speaker 5: is really drawing the audience in too. You know stage right, well,

1281
01:11:02,720 --> 01:11:05,519
Speaker 5: one prop is being wheeled off and another on that

1282
01:11:05,600 --> 01:11:07,640
Speaker 5: we just you know who wants to see that. So

1283
01:11:07,960 --> 01:11:10,880
Speaker 5: sure the assistant does a small dance routine and then

1284
01:11:10,920 --> 01:11:12,760
Speaker 5: we go on to the next illusion. So it could

1285
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 5: be as simple as that. So it is definitely a

1286
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:19,639
Speaker 5: useful tool to have an assistant that really captivates attention.

1287
01:11:20,320 --> 01:11:25,400
Speaker 5: It is more than likely. So there's a historical inaccuracy

1288
01:11:25,439 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 5: in this movie that I'll mention in a second, but

1289
01:11:27,880 --> 01:11:30,160
Speaker 5: it is more than likely that now an assistant will

1290
01:11:30,160 --> 01:11:33,479
Speaker 5: be a woman because you need somebody who is small

1291
01:11:33,520 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 5: in stature and flexible to do a lot of the routines.

1292
01:11:37,760 --> 01:11:40,439
Speaker 5: So that tends to be the route. Even if it's

1293
01:11:40,479 --> 01:11:44,040
Speaker 5: a woman who's the magician, they might often hire a

1294
01:11:43,479 --> 01:11:48,400
Speaker 5: woman assistant just because of the stature necessities, right, So

1295
01:11:48,439 --> 01:11:52,160
Speaker 5: that is possible An element that is historically inaccurate in

1296
01:11:52,200 --> 01:11:55,280
Speaker 5: this movie is that there would not have been women

1297
01:11:55,760 --> 01:11:59,479
Speaker 5: doing things like sawing a person and half illusions because

1298
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 5: that only started really by pt. Celbet, who invented the

1299
01:12:03,680 --> 01:12:06,040
Speaker 5: sawing a woman in half. That's the title of the

1300
01:12:06,080 --> 01:12:09,200
Speaker 5: trick during the women's suffrage movement.

1301
01:12:09,240 --> 01:12:12,759
Speaker 3: Direct, yeah, very direct, but it is direct.

1302
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 5: Kidding, it directly correlates with women getting the right to vote.

1303
01:12:16,320 --> 01:12:17,799
Speaker 2: WHOA so kidding?

1304
01:12:18,640 --> 01:12:20,640
Speaker 5: It's it's so interesting.

1305
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:21,480
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1306
01:12:21,520 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 5: There's a magic historian, Jim Steinmeier. He's massive in magic.

1307
01:12:25,280 --> 01:12:28,920
Speaker 5: He's he's created tons of illusions and he is the

1308
01:12:28,960 --> 01:12:31,839
Speaker 5: backbone to things like making the Statue of Liberty disappear

1309
01:12:32,160 --> 01:12:37,559
Speaker 5: and the flying carpet during the Aladdin Broadway musical. So

1310
01:12:37,680 --> 01:12:40,040
Speaker 5: like the massive and so he wrote a book and

1311
01:12:40,080 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 5: in that book it very specifically states that the reason

1312
01:12:43,360 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 5: for the explosive popularity of sawing a woman in half

1313
01:12:48,520 --> 01:12:51,680
Speaker 5: was due to its specific timing and culture. And he

1314
01:12:51,720 --> 01:12:53,800
Speaker 5: doesn't really elaborate on that, but if you if you

1315
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 5: start to look at it, you're like, oh, so you're

1316
01:12:56,000 --> 01:12:59,800
Speaker 5: telling me that the time where we gave women more

1317
01:13:00,120 --> 01:13:02,679
Speaker 5: rights in society was the time where a magician went

1318
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:05,559
Speaker 5: I'm going to take those away if only for this

1319
01:13:05,600 --> 01:13:07,240
Speaker 5: ten minute routine, right.

1320
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:12,439
Speaker 3: Like it's a fantasy act out ya. That is we

1321
01:13:12,479 --> 01:13:16,000
Speaker 3: should be talking about that every single day. Yeah, that

1322
01:13:16,160 --> 01:13:18,960
Speaker 3: is agreed, so fucked and so interesting.

1323
01:13:19,200 --> 01:13:21,639
Speaker 5: It's really interesting because that really opened up like all

1324
01:13:21,680 --> 01:13:24,840
Speaker 5: these illusions that were done in the eighteen hundreds that

1325
01:13:24,880 --> 01:13:26,760
Speaker 5: were often done. It could have been a woman, it

1326
01:13:26,800 --> 01:13:28,040
Speaker 5: could have been a guy like I, could have been

1327
01:13:28,040 --> 01:13:30,360
Speaker 5: a kid, you know, it was just a whoever could

1328
01:13:30,400 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 5: fit in the box was the person that did it,

1329
01:13:33,360 --> 01:13:36,599
Speaker 5: Like Robert Houdan, who was a very famous illusionist, did

1330
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:38,920
Speaker 5: it with his son. You know, all this stuff, right,

1331
01:13:39,439 --> 01:13:43,320
Speaker 5: But really the opening up of like any woman getting

1332
01:13:43,360 --> 01:13:45,439
Speaker 5: put in a box and mutilated and put back together,

1333
01:13:45,600 --> 01:13:49,280
Speaker 5: that only started in the twenties, nineteen twenties, So it's

1334
01:13:49,320 --> 01:13:51,840
Speaker 5: a little it's a little bit inaccurate in this movie,

1335
01:13:52,320 --> 01:13:54,800
Speaker 5: but also just really interesting to know that, like, oh,

1336
01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:56,759
Speaker 5: magic is Magic's weird.

1337
01:13:57,320 --> 01:14:01,360
Speaker 3: I think that it's again like something that you are

1338
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:04,320
Speaker 3: more aware of than most people, Kila. But the fact

1339
01:14:04,360 --> 01:14:08,160
Speaker 3: that like all popular media and all entertainment is a

1340
01:14:08,200 --> 01:14:11,400
Speaker 3: mirror to the time is coming out and that is

1341
01:14:11,840 --> 01:14:16,040
Speaker 3: a fascinating o cregious example that is nuts.

1342
01:14:16,240 --> 01:14:20,639
Speaker 5: Wow. Angela Sanchez, who is a brilliant magic historian. They

1343
01:14:20,680 --> 01:14:25,879
Speaker 5: really dove deep into this in like a collegiate paper

1344
01:14:25,960 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 5: that they wrote, and reading that paper, I was like,

1345
01:14:29,200 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 5: everything in magic makes sense now, But now I'm upset

1346
01:14:34,840 --> 01:14:38,519
Speaker 5: and it's just a lot. And so kind of reading

1347
01:14:38,520 --> 01:14:41,439
Speaker 5: their work and hearing them talk about these things is like, oh, shoot, yeah,

1348
01:14:41,439 --> 01:14:43,439
Speaker 5: I didn't even think about Oh let me look at

1349
01:14:43,920 --> 01:14:46,320
Speaker 5: let me look at this illusion or this popularity of

1350
01:14:46,320 --> 01:14:49,160
Speaker 5: this one magician or anything, and compare it more culturally.

1351
01:14:49,240 --> 01:14:51,759
Speaker 5: You really start to see a lot of that come about.

1352
01:14:53,360 --> 01:14:56,360
Speaker 5: There is another moment that I wanted to talk about,

1353
01:14:56,400 --> 01:14:58,360
Speaker 5: but I want to make sure that we are done

1354
01:14:58,400 --> 01:15:01,880
Speaker 5: talking about this thing. My brain went transition and then

1355
01:15:01,960 --> 01:15:03,160
Speaker 5: it I don't know if it happened.

1356
01:15:03,240 --> 01:15:05,800
Speaker 3: No, please, you're you're in the driver's seat, whatever whatever

1357
01:15:05,840 --> 01:15:07,519
Speaker 3: you want to move along to.

1358
01:15:08,040 --> 01:15:09,599
Speaker 5: I'm honored. Thanks for letting me drive.

1359
01:15:10,280 --> 01:15:11,080
Speaker 3: This is great.

1360
01:15:11,560 --> 01:15:14,280
Speaker 5: So there's a moment where they are talking about it's

1361
01:15:14,360 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 5: when they're all done with the first show and we

1362
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:21,640
Speaker 5: watched the water tank escape and they're all talking and

1363
01:15:21,720 --> 01:15:24,280
Speaker 5: yelling at each other in the basement, right and there's

1364
01:15:24,280 --> 01:15:26,559
Speaker 5: a moment where Michael Caine goes, you need to go

1365
01:15:26,600 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 5: to this theater. There is uh and I'm not gonna

1366
01:15:29,800 --> 01:15:33,759
Speaker 5: say the language because it's wrong, but there's men from China,

1367
01:15:33,880 --> 01:15:37,160
Speaker 5: a man from China who's performing, and Hu Jopman's like

1368
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:40,040
Speaker 5: Chuckling Sue. And then they go and they watch this

1369
01:15:40,200 --> 01:15:43,880
Speaker 5: magician perform, and you see like, yes, this man is

1370
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:51,000
Speaker 5: likely of Asian descent, So okay, cool, wrong, So Chung

1371
01:15:51,040 --> 01:15:54,760
Speaker 5: Ling Sue. His real name is William Ellsworth Robinson.

1372
01:15:55,280 --> 01:15:56,759
Speaker 3: Oh that's a real figure.

1373
01:15:56,880 --> 01:15:58,960
Speaker 5: Okay, but not Asian.

1374
01:15:59,520 --> 01:16:00,799
Speaker 3: Okay, good lord?

1375
01:16:01,200 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 5: Right, So of course in this movie, you can't be like,

1376
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:08,000
Speaker 5: should we discuss cultural appropriation because it's in the eighteen hundred.

1377
01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:10,160
Speaker 5: It's like, no, it's not. I understand that that would

1378
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:13,440
Speaker 5: be a weird subplot to just throw into the movie.

1379
01:16:13,800 --> 01:16:16,639
Speaker 5: But there's somebody else that we can mention. So Chumling

1380
01:16:16,680 --> 01:16:21,600
Speaker 5: Siou William Robinson. He had a rivalry, and it was

1381
01:16:21,720 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 5: very interesting that that was the magician we decided to

1382
01:16:23,800 --> 01:16:26,799
Speaker 5: name in this movie because the rivalry is very similar

1383
01:16:26,920 --> 01:16:30,360
Speaker 5: to the rivalry in this movie, where there was a

1384
01:16:30,360 --> 01:16:35,519
Speaker 5: magician named Ching Ling Fu actually from China who was

1385
01:16:35,600 --> 01:16:40,320
Speaker 5: brought to the US for the Omaha World's Fair, and

1386
01:16:40,800 --> 01:16:46,960
Speaker 5: Fu was the first like celebrity in America because he

1387
01:16:47,080 --> 01:16:49,680
Speaker 5: was so famous doing his act that he would be

1388
01:16:49,800 --> 01:16:53,000
Speaker 5: performing at a theater that across the street was a

1389
01:16:53,000 --> 01:16:55,240
Speaker 5: movie theater, one of the first movie theaters, and it

1390
01:16:55,280 --> 01:16:57,479
Speaker 5: was playing a video of his act because it was

1391
01:16:57,600 --> 01:16:59,519
Speaker 5: cheaper to go to the movie theater, so if you

1392
01:16:59,560 --> 01:17:01,719
Speaker 5: didn't have a lot of money, you could go watch

1393
01:17:01,720 --> 01:17:03,679
Speaker 5: his act at the movie theater while he was playing

1394
01:17:03,720 --> 01:17:06,680
Speaker 5: across the street. That is the level of fame that

1395
01:17:06,720 --> 01:17:10,240
Speaker 5: Fu had. And then he put out this challenge, being like,

1396
01:17:10,320 --> 01:17:12,320
Speaker 5: if you can figure out how I do any of

1397
01:17:12,360 --> 01:17:15,920
Speaker 5: my material, then I'll give you money, and et cetera.

1398
01:17:16,439 --> 01:17:22,519
Speaker 5: And William Robinson he recreated Fu's act and Fu was like, okay,

1399
01:17:22,560 --> 01:17:24,600
Speaker 5: you did it, but you didn't do it correctly, like

1400
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 5: you didn't use my method. One of those things was

1401
01:17:27,400 --> 01:17:31,880
Speaker 5: producing a massive fish tank like in this movie. Okay,

1402
01:17:32,120 --> 01:17:35,360
Speaker 5: And William Robinson was like, yeah, but I did it.

1403
01:17:35,400 --> 01:17:37,360
Speaker 5: You didn't tell me how to do it exactly correct.

1404
01:17:37,400 --> 01:17:41,120
Speaker 5: I still replicated it, give me money, and Fu went no.

1405
01:17:41,600 --> 01:17:43,679
Speaker 5: And that was it. That was all that was needed

1406
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:49,559
Speaker 5: to become this massive rivalry that changed Magic Forever because

1407
01:17:49,560 --> 01:17:54,080
Speaker 5: William Robinson started dressing up and calling himself Chungling Sue

1408
01:17:54,600 --> 01:17:58,639
Speaker 5: and was doing Fu's act. But in America everyone went,

1409
01:17:59,000 --> 01:18:03,120
Speaker 5: you're not actual Chinese. Like we we know that you're not,

1410
01:18:03,240 --> 01:18:05,600
Speaker 5: like we know that Fu is actually Chinese.

1411
01:18:05,520 --> 01:18:06,920
Speaker 3: In a racist costume.

1412
01:18:07,080 --> 01:18:10,160
Speaker 5: Yeah, uh huh, we we can smell that because we've

1413
01:18:10,200 --> 01:18:14,080
Speaker 5: been adoring Fu for years, so we don't like you.

1414
01:18:14,479 --> 01:18:17,800
Speaker 5: And so William Robinson went, Okay, then I'm going to

1415
01:18:17,840 --> 01:18:20,720
Speaker 5: go somewhere where Fo hasn't been yet. So he went

1416
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:23,719
Speaker 5: to England and by the time Fu got to England,

1417
01:18:23,800 --> 01:18:28,360
Speaker 5: everyone said, you're not the real Chinese magician. This guy

1418
01:18:28,479 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 5: is talking about Robinson. So Fu did not have a

1419
01:18:32,040 --> 01:18:37,320
Speaker 5: career in England and that became this massive rivalry. But

1420
01:18:37,400 --> 01:18:40,479
Speaker 5: Chuckling Sue also never grew to be this seventy year

1421
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:43,439
Speaker 5: old man that they are showing in the movie. William

1422
01:18:43,520 --> 01:18:45,599
Speaker 5: Robinson was one of the many magicians that died from

1423
01:18:45,640 --> 01:18:48,439
Speaker 5: a bullet catch. So he died on stage during a

1424
01:18:48,479 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 5: bullet catch in his fifties, and so it was just

1425
01:18:51,000 --> 01:18:53,840
Speaker 5: a really interesting way of really interesting to put William

1426
01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:58,200
Speaker 5: Robinson as Chuckling Sue in this movie. When you could

1427
01:18:58,240 --> 01:19:01,599
Speaker 5: have easily made this into that character could have been

1428
01:19:01,760 --> 01:19:03,200
Speaker 5: Chickling Foo easily.

1429
01:19:03,640 --> 01:19:05,200
Speaker 3: And why wouldn't it have been?

1430
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:09,920
Speaker 5: Yeah, because up until recently, and by recently I mean

1431
01:19:09,960 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 5: twenty twenty, people did not know magicians, magic historians, did

1432
01:19:15,280 --> 01:19:16,919
Speaker 5: not know Chingling Foo existed.

1433
01:19:17,320 --> 01:19:18,519
Speaker 3: O wow, Okay.

1434
01:19:18,720 --> 01:19:21,240
Speaker 5: So it was only in I believe twenty nineteen, twenty

1435
01:19:21,240 --> 01:19:24,960
Speaker 5: twenty that a book came out by a historian, not

1436
01:19:25,040 --> 01:19:29,320
Speaker 5: a magic historian, who lives in China, who discovered the

1437
01:19:29,360 --> 01:19:31,479
Speaker 5: life of Fu and end he wrote a book. The

1438
01:19:31,479 --> 01:19:37,080
Speaker 5: book is amazing, and then magicians went, who's this? And

1439
01:19:37,160 --> 01:19:38,960
Speaker 5: there was a there was supposed to be a debate

1440
01:19:39,040 --> 01:19:42,080
Speaker 5: between a very well known magic historian and the writer

1441
01:19:42,200 --> 01:19:45,439
Speaker 5: of this book. And the magic historian said, because there's

1442
01:19:45,439 --> 01:19:49,559
Speaker 5: always a debate, unlike is what William Robinson did wrong

1443
01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:52,160
Speaker 5: for that time period, not for now, but for the

1444
01:19:52,200 --> 01:19:57,200
Speaker 5: time period. And many, like myself say yes, but many

1445
01:19:57,280 --> 01:19:58,760
Speaker 5: say no, it was just how you had to have

1446
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:02,960
Speaker 5: a career. I hate the debate so much. Welcome to

1447
01:20:03,000 --> 01:20:05,960
Speaker 5: my soapbox. But they we're gonna have a debate in

1448
01:20:05,960 --> 01:20:08,000
Speaker 5: the magic story and said, I can't believe you wrote

1449
01:20:08,040 --> 01:20:09,680
Speaker 5: a whole book on this guy. Because the most I've

1450
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,120
Speaker 5: ever been able to find is like four paragraphs.

1451
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:13,360
Speaker 3: How did you.

1452
01:20:13,280 --> 01:20:16,280
Speaker 5: Find out more information? And the writer of the book said,

1453
01:20:16,520 --> 01:20:18,200
Speaker 5: I went to the library.

1454
01:20:18,960 --> 01:20:20,000
Speaker 3: Robert Edgars vibes.

1455
01:20:21,040 --> 01:20:22,960
Speaker 5: That was the end of the debate. It was incredible.

1456
01:20:23,520 --> 01:20:27,000
Speaker 3: Whoa, he's like, I tried reading a book, you dusty bitch.

1457
01:20:27,520 --> 01:20:28,719
Speaker 5: Wow? Yeah?

1458
01:20:28,800 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 3: That okay. So theoretically, and this isn't too because if

1459
01:20:33,760 --> 01:20:36,360
Speaker 3: the answer truly was as simple as I did some

1460
01:20:36,479 --> 01:20:41,719
Speaker 3: research that is so addicative of so much lost history.

1461
01:20:42,000 --> 01:20:46,200
Speaker 3: But theoretically, like so this would have been not as

1462
01:20:46,600 --> 01:20:49,320
Speaker 3: bizarre a choice as it would now seem in two

1463
01:20:49,360 --> 01:20:52,720
Speaker 3: thousand and six. Or is it still a bizarre choy?

1464
01:20:52,800 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 3: Because he was known to be a white man in

1465
01:20:56,240 --> 01:20:59,280
Speaker 3: yellow face in two thousand and six, right, correct? I

1466
01:20:59,320 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 3: didn't know that before this recording. Because Chuckling Sue is

1467
01:21:02,880 --> 01:21:08,679
Speaker 3: played by a Chinese American actor in this movie. It's

1468
01:21:08,680 --> 01:21:13,080
Speaker 3: his last film appearance, Strata Charlie Chi, who is also

1469
01:21:13,200 --> 01:21:16,280
Speaker 3: in a bunch of other very popular American movies, including

1470
01:21:16,320 --> 01:21:20,040
Speaker 3: The Joy Luck Club, including Batman the animated series like

1471
01:21:20,439 --> 01:21:24,559
Speaker 3: all sorts of fun stuff. But why choose this magician

1472
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:27,880
Speaker 3: specifically if it is so well known that he was

1473
01:21:28,760 --> 01:21:31,240
Speaker 3: fraudulent in all these ways.

1474
01:21:31,880 --> 01:21:33,920
Speaker 5: My guess is, and I don't know who would have

1475
01:21:34,000 --> 01:21:36,640
Speaker 5: decided that this was the magician that they wanted to

1476
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:39,080
Speaker 5: talk about. I don't know if this was in the

1477
01:21:39,120 --> 01:21:42,879
Speaker 5: book or if this was a decision made by the writers,

1478
01:21:42,920 --> 01:21:48,280
Speaker 5: Christopher Nolan, maybe the magic consultant. But the questioning of

1479
01:21:49,040 --> 01:21:52,679
Speaker 5: cultural appropriation in magic, or even just the discussion of it,

1480
01:21:52,720 --> 01:21:57,679
Speaker 5: did not happen until about twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, and

1481
01:21:58,400 --> 01:22:02,120
Speaker 5: there are still in twenty twenty five, there are still

1482
01:22:02,200 --> 01:22:07,920
Speaker 5: magicians dressing up and pretending to be not light of

1483
01:22:07,960 --> 01:22:11,439
Speaker 5: some Asian ethnicity to benefit the trick that they want

1484
01:22:11,479 --> 01:22:15,440
Speaker 5: to do, or using props that have are an artistic

1485
01:22:15,920 --> 01:22:19,720
Speaker 5: just rendering of Chinese characters. So it is. It is

1486
01:22:19,760 --> 01:22:22,519
Speaker 5: a very common thing in magic, and the fact that

1487
01:22:23,280 --> 01:22:26,320
Speaker 5: it's really only been questioned, and I can tell you

1488
01:22:26,800 --> 01:22:28,920
Speaker 5: when it started questioning it because I'm the one that

1489
01:22:29,000 --> 01:22:32,479
Speaker 5: did it, so I know what happened, because that didn't

1490
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:35,200
Speaker 5: happen until I went, what's up, why are we doing this?

1491
01:22:35,920 --> 01:22:38,639
Speaker 5: And then started doing all this research. Of that time

1492
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:40,920
Speaker 5: as well, there were a lot of magicians pretending to

1493
01:22:40,960 --> 01:22:45,320
Speaker 5: be Indian for their benefit so it just was a

1494
01:22:45,439 --> 01:22:49,000
Speaker 5: very common thing of the eighteen hundreds. The first one,

1495
01:22:49,040 --> 01:22:51,160
Speaker 5: the first magician to ever do it was oddly a

1496
01:22:51,200 --> 01:22:54,519
Speaker 5: woman in the early eighteen hundreds. But it is a

1497
01:22:54,600 --> 01:22:57,240
Speaker 5: very common thing and it just really didn't start being

1498
01:22:57,360 --> 01:23:01,519
Speaker 5: discussed until the last seven or eight years.

1499
01:23:01,840 --> 01:23:04,479
Speaker 3: And tell you, like started the conversation.

1500
01:23:04,400 --> 01:23:08,400
Speaker 5: Which is it shouldn't be me like, that's why is that?

1501
01:23:08,600 --> 01:23:11,280
Speaker 5: Why did it take that long? Somebody before me should

1502
01:23:11,280 --> 01:23:14,639
Speaker 5: have said something. But you know, I had a podcast

1503
01:23:14,680 --> 01:23:18,600
Speaker 5: discussing mostly like the diversity and inclusion lack there of

1504
01:23:18,640 --> 01:23:20,639
Speaker 5: in the magic community, and because of that, I think

1505
01:23:20,960 --> 01:23:24,920
Speaker 5: a lot of people started looking into, oh this is weird.

1506
01:23:25,000 --> 01:23:27,320
Speaker 5: And I had on the author of the Jingling Fu book,

1507
01:23:27,320 --> 01:23:29,880
Speaker 5: Samuel Portias, and we discussed a lot of things about

1508
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:32,880
Speaker 5: on that topic. And it's a fascinating element of magic

1509
01:23:32,960 --> 01:23:36,439
Speaker 5: history that really nobody has talked about. Even now. It's

1510
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:39,439
Speaker 5: more talked about now, but it is not widely enough

1511
01:23:39,479 --> 01:23:40,080
Speaker 5: spoken about.

1512
01:23:40,840 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 2: Well. We even see a jeer in the movie when

1513
01:23:44,840 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 2: he's first presenting the version of the Transported Man trick,

1514
01:23:49,400 --> 01:23:53,720
Speaker 2: when he's using a double and he says, like, the

1515
01:23:53,760 --> 01:23:56,640
Speaker 2: next thing you're going to see isn't even an illusion.

1516
01:23:57,120 --> 01:24:02,160
Speaker 2: This is real magic known only to select few. It

1517
01:24:02,240 --> 01:24:07,960
Speaker 2: comes from East Asia, and it's like real witchcraft wizardry

1518
01:24:08,080 --> 01:24:12,479
Speaker 2: kind of thing, the way that so often any non

1519
01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:14,080
Speaker 2: white culture will.

1520
01:24:13,880 --> 01:24:16,160
Speaker 3: Be missed a size exactly.

1521
01:24:16,680 --> 01:24:20,640
Speaker 2: And I can't even imagine how much that was exploited

1522
01:24:21,400 --> 01:24:25,120
Speaker 2: in magic for centuries.

1523
01:24:25,520 --> 01:24:29,719
Speaker 5: Yeah, and extensively, because when ching Ling Foo gets brought

1524
01:24:29,720 --> 01:24:32,800
Speaker 5: over and becomes this massive celebrity touring the US and

1525
01:24:32,880 --> 01:24:36,559
Speaker 5: multiple times magicians in the US or magicians in England

1526
01:24:36,600 --> 01:24:39,439
Speaker 5: who can't a lot of people can't easily access going

1527
01:24:39,840 --> 01:24:44,000
Speaker 5: to East Asia. So it's so easy to give yourself

1528
01:24:44,080 --> 01:24:48,880
Speaker 5: some cred and say I just came back from China,

1529
01:24:49,000 --> 01:24:52,639
Speaker 5: from Japan, from wherever, and said I picked this up

1530
01:24:53,360 --> 01:24:57,320
Speaker 5: when I was traveling. And now immediately the audience is like, oh,

1531
01:24:57,479 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 5: tell me more. You must be a big deal if

1532
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:02,720
Speaker 5: you've been able to go travel to these places, and

1533
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:05,280
Speaker 5: you must have money or somebody paid for you, like

1534
01:25:05,360 --> 01:25:08,559
Speaker 5: you are now celebrity in my eyes. And it was

1535
01:25:08,640 --> 01:25:11,439
Speaker 5: just an instant way to get people to love you

1536
01:25:11,520 --> 01:25:15,400
Speaker 5: and to think you were amazing. And it Unfortunately, even

1537
01:25:15,439 --> 01:25:19,479
Speaker 5: though all of the reasons why that happened are no

1538
01:25:19,560 --> 01:25:23,400
Speaker 5: longer applicable. It's still very much a thing that happens

1539
01:25:23,400 --> 01:25:24,880
Speaker 5: in magic. I mean when I was a kid, I

1540
01:25:24,920 --> 01:25:27,720
Speaker 5: had I mean, this is kind of crazy, but I

1541
01:25:27,760 --> 01:25:30,720
Speaker 5: had a long piece of paper that was deemed the

1542
01:25:30,800 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 5: Chinese laundry ticket, and it was this idea that you

1543
01:25:33,800 --> 01:25:36,400
Speaker 5: drop your laundry off it a dry cleaner, and you

1544
01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:39,599
Speaker 5: received this ticket, but it's in it's not in English,

1545
01:25:40,160 --> 01:25:42,040
Speaker 5: and then you tear it up and you restore it.

1546
01:25:42,479 --> 01:25:44,000
Speaker 5: And like that was the trick I did for years

1547
01:25:44,000 --> 01:25:47,120
Speaker 5: as a kid. Wait, why did I do that?

1548
01:25:47,320 --> 01:25:50,760
Speaker 3: That makes no sense. It was normalized, just normalized. Yeah,

1549
01:25:50,840 --> 01:25:51,599
Speaker 3: I mean, it's.

1550
01:25:51,479 --> 01:25:53,439
Speaker 5: Just it's a product you bought from the magic shop

1551
01:25:53,880 --> 01:25:54,800
Speaker 5: right everywhere.

1552
01:25:54,840 --> 01:25:57,160
Speaker 3: And again, like it's just like a reflect in the

1553
01:25:57,240 --> 01:26:01,519
Speaker 3: same you know, a very different example, but just as

1554
01:26:01,640 --> 01:26:04,920
Speaker 3: the woman being sold in half as a reflection of

1555
01:26:04,960 --> 01:26:08,120
Speaker 3: the politics and values of the time and just a

1556
01:26:08,120 --> 01:26:11,360
Speaker 3: reflection of how history is preserved. I'm like, I'm right.

1557
01:26:11,439 --> 01:26:13,479
Speaker 3: What was the name of the author who wrote that

1558
01:26:13,520 --> 01:26:14,320
Speaker 3: book again.

1559
01:26:14,400 --> 01:26:18,599
Speaker 5: About ching wing Fu? Yes, Samuel Portius. I think it's

1560
01:26:18,680 --> 01:26:23,320
Speaker 5: po rt e o u s poords. That sounds I

1561
01:26:23,360 --> 01:26:25,000
Speaker 5: can't spell, but it'll pop up.

1562
01:26:26,240 --> 01:26:28,400
Speaker 3: You're you're a performer, you don't have to know how

1563
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:32,599
Speaker 3: to spell thank you? And did they hear that every

1564
01:26:32,640 --> 01:26:36,439
Speaker 3: all performers should be told that. But yeah, I mean

1565
01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:40,360
Speaker 3: just speaking to how you know, as technology develops in it,

1566
01:26:40,400 --> 01:26:43,400
Speaker 3: as you know, there are far more ways to preserve

1567
01:26:43,520 --> 01:26:46,760
Speaker 3: history does not mean it is being done better. It

1568
01:26:47,040 --> 01:26:50,360
Speaker 3: just gives a larger platform for centuries old misinformation to

1569
01:26:50,439 --> 01:26:53,840
Speaker 3: sort of persist, you know. That's that's I'm so glad

1570
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:57,160
Speaker 3: that book was written. Wow, I was not expecting that

1571
01:26:57,240 --> 01:26:58,599
Speaker 3: side quest in this episode.

1572
01:26:58,640 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 5: Thank you for maddening to me. So as soon as

1573
01:27:01,479 --> 01:27:03,160
Speaker 5: that came up, I was like, you've got to be

1574
01:27:03,200 --> 01:27:05,840
Speaker 5: kidding me, and I like paused the movie. I had

1575
01:27:05,880 --> 01:27:07,559
Speaker 5: to just wait a second because I was like, you

1576
01:27:07,600 --> 01:27:10,920
Speaker 5: can't tell me this is Oh, it's happening, okay. It

1577
01:27:11,120 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 5: just is one of those things that like if it

1578
01:27:13,240 --> 01:27:16,559
Speaker 5: were done more historically accurate, totally different if they had

1579
01:27:16,600 --> 01:27:20,160
Speaker 5: said like, oh, yeah, this this performer is not actually Chinese,

1580
01:27:20,200 --> 01:27:22,200
Speaker 5: but he's been living because they say like, oh, he's

1581
01:27:22,240 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 5: been living like this, he walks like this old man

1582
01:27:25,000 --> 01:27:26,720
Speaker 5: with a back problem, like all of these things, and

1583
01:27:26,880 --> 01:27:29,799
Speaker 5: they also had just thrown in there like that man's

1584
01:27:29,960 --> 01:27:32,840
Speaker 5: from New York. He's a white man, and he is

1585
01:27:33,000 --> 01:27:36,719
Speaker 5: he's just been living this way to perpetuate this character.

1586
01:27:37,560 --> 01:27:41,080
Speaker 5: Then that's legit, Like okay, you'll did it. But I

1587
01:27:41,160 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 5: just think nobody knew. I really think just nobody knew

1588
01:27:44,280 --> 01:27:47,200
Speaker 5: to even think about it, to say it, to discuss it, to.

1589
01:27:47,200 --> 01:27:48,360
Speaker 3: Go out to the library.

1590
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:49,439
Speaker 5: No, too hard.

1591
01:27:50,520 --> 01:27:53,000
Speaker 3: That's really yeah, because I mean I guess it's like

1592
01:27:53,000 --> 01:27:56,080
Speaker 3: we can't know, but it seems like you know, again,

1593
01:27:56,360 --> 01:28:01,040
Speaker 3: even the like horrific read of what really happened of

1594
01:28:01,720 --> 01:28:05,920
Speaker 3: like this guy kind of like Rachel doleas all like

1595
01:28:06,280 --> 01:28:10,000
Speaker 3: he like lived as another race in order to deceive

1596
01:28:10,080 --> 01:28:14,160
Speaker 3: others for years. That's I feel like is also very

1597
01:28:14,200 --> 01:28:17,559
Speaker 3: much in line with and is a far more racist

1598
01:28:17,680 --> 01:28:20,519
Speaker 3: version of what the two protagonists are doing. So why

1599
01:28:20,960 --> 01:28:25,120
Speaker 3: like in a world where we have to have the

1600
01:28:25,720 --> 01:28:28,880
Speaker 3: historical figure of Chung ling Suit in this movie, it's

1601
01:28:28,960 --> 01:28:34,440
Speaker 3: like almost foreshadowing to acknowledge that he is so committed

1602
01:28:34,560 --> 01:28:40,320
Speaker 3: to the deeply troubling bit that like his life is

1603
01:28:40,479 --> 01:28:43,040
Speaker 3: kind of fucked, the life of his and others are

1604
01:28:43,040 --> 01:28:44,840
Speaker 3: fucked as a result, because that's what happens in the

1605
01:28:44,880 --> 01:28:48,240
Speaker 3: third act of this movie. It's just yeah, well.

1606
01:28:48,320 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 2: In the movie starts to explore this theme of like, well,

1607
01:28:54,960 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 2: how much sacrifice are you willing to make for your

1608
01:28:57,520 --> 01:29:02,559
Speaker 2: magic career? When the chung Ling Su character shows up

1609
01:29:02,560 --> 01:29:06,000
Speaker 2: on screen again, the movie isn't acknowledging that he but.

1610
01:29:05,960 --> 01:29:08,080
Speaker 3: They sort of just make up another thing. They make

1611
01:29:08,160 --> 01:29:10,040
Speaker 3: up a physical disability, right.

1612
01:29:10,000 --> 01:29:15,040
Speaker 2: And say, but that is the beginning of this thematic

1613
01:29:15,240 --> 01:29:19,360
Speaker 2: under like under or overcurrent of the movie, as far

1614
01:29:19,439 --> 01:29:24,320
Speaker 2: as like and to what lengths is anyone willing to

1615
01:29:24,360 --> 01:29:29,040
Speaker 2: go to for the sake of their craft? And you know,

1616
01:29:29,120 --> 01:29:32,599
Speaker 2: as a performer, when are you on? And when are

1617
01:29:32,600 --> 01:29:36,040
Speaker 2: you off? And what if you're always on? And what

1618
01:29:36,120 --> 01:29:39,799
Speaker 2: if your whole life is basically a lie to maintain

1619
01:29:39,840 --> 01:29:42,639
Speaker 2: a specific illusion. And that becomes like such a huge

1620
01:29:43,040 --> 01:29:45,920
Speaker 2: part of the Borden character.

1621
01:29:46,320 --> 01:29:48,720
Speaker 3: At which point I'm like, he shouldn't get his kid

1622
01:29:48,760 --> 01:29:51,479
Speaker 3: back at that. We shouldn't be clapping for that. So

1623
01:29:51,520 --> 01:29:53,240
Speaker 3: he will do We have no reason to believe he

1624
01:29:53,280 --> 01:29:54,200
Speaker 3: will not do this again.

1625
01:29:55,160 --> 01:29:57,320
Speaker 2: Well he doesn't have a twin to do it with anymore.

1626
01:29:57,720 --> 01:30:01,280
Speaker 3: But yeah, but he's gonna fuck this kid's life, like absolutely.

1627
01:30:02,479 --> 01:30:05,800
Speaker 2: But yeah, my whole deal with this is, you know,

1628
01:30:06,360 --> 01:30:09,160
Speaker 2: we learn that there are these two Burdens, these identical

1629
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:13,479
Speaker 2: twin brothers who share a life, and one of them

1630
01:30:13,600 --> 01:30:15,840
Speaker 2: is Borden part of the time and one of them

1631
01:30:15,920 --> 01:30:18,040
Speaker 2: is Fallen part of the time, and they switch back

1632
01:30:18,040 --> 01:30:20,919
Speaker 2: and forth. But this is all happening at the expense

1633
01:30:21,080 --> 01:30:25,840
Speaker 2: of one of the Borden's marriage with Sarah, who thinks

1634
01:30:25,840 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 2: that her husband doesn't love her half of the time

1635
01:30:28,680 --> 01:30:32,560
Speaker 2: and thinks that he's perhaps cheating on her with Olivia,

1636
01:30:32,800 --> 01:30:36,640
Speaker 2: and this leads her to die by suicide, which so

1637
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:38,880
Speaker 2: I'm just like, And this is I think, actually a

1638
01:30:38,920 --> 01:30:42,719
Speaker 2: reflection of like a lot of men's behavior in real life,

1639
01:30:43,000 --> 01:30:48,280
Speaker 2: their willingness to destroy their lives and other people's lives

1640
01:30:48,479 --> 01:30:51,320
Speaker 2: under the guise of quote unquote sacrifice for their craft,

1641
01:30:51,920 --> 01:30:55,680
Speaker 2: but really they're just hurting all the people around them.

1642
01:30:55,680 --> 01:30:58,000
Speaker 2: And this is actually something we talked about on the

1643
01:30:58,080 --> 01:31:02,519
Speaker 2: Men Being Bitches Matreon theme that we did recently, where

1644
01:31:02,520 --> 01:31:07,200
Speaker 2: we covered the Banshees of Indus here and amadaeis. But

1645
01:31:07,520 --> 01:31:11,479
Speaker 2: this is very much happening with Borden as well, And

1646
01:31:11,520 --> 01:31:14,160
Speaker 2: the whole time, I'm just like, poor Sarah, like, and

1647
01:31:14,200 --> 01:31:20,000
Speaker 2: there's a moment where Borden tells Fallen aka the other Bordon,

1648
01:31:20,120 --> 01:31:24,439
Speaker 2: but we don't know that yet that Sarah knows something

1649
01:31:24,680 --> 01:31:27,559
Speaker 2: is a miss. She can tell that her husband only

1650
01:31:27,600 --> 01:31:30,439
Speaker 2: seems to love her half of the time, and so.

1651
01:31:30,680 --> 01:31:33,519
Speaker 3: That's like her how we're introduced to her, which is

1652
01:31:33,600 --> 01:31:38,519
Speaker 3: like clever in the corniest way possible, but like it's

1653
01:31:38,600 --> 01:31:42,360
Speaker 3: so it's so silly, it's right, like god, women, women

1654
01:31:42,360 --> 01:31:45,880
Speaker 3: are women are just socially conditioned to settle for so little.

1655
01:31:45,960 --> 01:31:49,280
Speaker 3: It'd be like sad because she's she's like, well, at

1656
01:31:49,320 --> 01:31:51,400
Speaker 3: least this makes me feel good the days that you

1657
01:31:51,479 --> 01:31:54,280
Speaker 3: do love me. I was like, right, cope, it's cope.

1658
01:31:54,320 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 3: Sarah's coping so hard.

1659
01:31:55,800 --> 01:31:57,559
Speaker 2: But toward the end of the movie, when she's like

1660
01:31:57,760 --> 01:32:01,360
Speaker 2: really had enough and she's like I can't take much

1661
01:32:01,400 --> 01:32:05,840
Speaker 2: more of this, Borden asks Fallin. We're not sure which

1662
01:32:05,880 --> 01:32:09,840
Speaker 2: one is married to Sarah at this point, but he's like, hey,

1663
01:32:10,520 --> 01:32:13,400
Speaker 2: Sarah realizes something is not right. I need you to

1664
01:32:13,439 --> 01:32:17,559
Speaker 2: do whatever you need to do to reassure her that

1665
01:32:17,760 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 2: Borden loves her. And so we think, okay, maybe we're

1666
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:27,160
Speaker 2: gonna see more intimacy between them, or more emotional nurturing

1667
01:32:27,240 --> 01:32:30,479
Speaker 2: or something, but instead, the next time other Bordon is

1668
01:32:30,520 --> 01:32:34,559
Speaker 2: with Sarah. They have a fight. He is verbally and

1669
01:32:34,640 --> 01:32:38,599
Speaker 2: emotionally abusive toward her. She's saying like, all I want

1670
01:32:38,640 --> 01:32:41,760
Speaker 2: from you is to be honest with me and to

1671
01:32:42,600 --> 01:32:45,080
Speaker 2: give me the affection and love that I deserve. And

1672
01:32:45,120 --> 01:32:48,320
Speaker 2: she's like, do you love me? And he says not today.

1673
01:32:48,920 --> 01:32:51,439
Speaker 2: And this seems to be the catalyst for her taking

1674
01:32:51,479 --> 01:32:53,920
Speaker 2: her own life, which.

1675
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:58,200
Speaker 3: I think, you know, not that this has never happened

1676
01:32:58,240 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 3: in history anything like that. I like, I guess I'm

1677
01:33:01,560 --> 01:33:04,760
Speaker 3: curious what you both. I just thought that was an

1678
01:33:04,760 --> 01:33:09,439
Speaker 3: incredible selling out of this character. Like I while I

1679
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:12,760
Speaker 3: absolutely like while people have taken their own lives over

1680
01:33:12,800 --> 01:33:16,080
Speaker 3: issues like this, I just it doesn't quite square with

1681
01:33:16,160 --> 01:33:18,680
Speaker 3: the character we know. To me, it's like this is

1682
01:33:18,800 --> 01:33:22,559
Speaker 3: someone who, while she is clearly heartbroken and is like

1683
01:33:23,000 --> 01:33:24,920
Speaker 3: I think we see that she's drinking a lot to

1684
01:33:25,040 --> 01:33:28,960
Speaker 3: cope with the gaslighting and the stress, this is just

1685
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:34,200
Speaker 3: not someone who I think would abandon their child like that.

1686
01:33:34,760 --> 01:33:37,479
Speaker 3: I just I feel like she's got a lot. I

1687
01:33:37,479 --> 01:33:39,559
Speaker 3: mean again, it's like I don't want to get into

1688
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:41,320
Speaker 3: like a toxic pattern of like she has so much

1689
01:33:41,360 --> 01:33:44,280
Speaker 3: to live for, But it just felt like she's killed

1690
01:33:44,760 --> 01:33:48,760
Speaker 3: in this really tragic way to raise the stakes more

1691
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:51,880
Speaker 3: than to remain faithful to the character that we've met.

1692
01:33:52,600 --> 01:33:57,080
Speaker 2: I agree. Yeah, I think that Christopher Nolan just did

1693
01:33:57,080 --> 01:33:59,599
Speaker 2: what he does best, which is kill off a woman.

1694
01:34:00,280 --> 01:34:02,680
Speaker 3: I mean or the novelist, you know, because this is

1695
01:34:03,040 --> 01:34:06,280
Speaker 3: based on a book by Christopher Priest, a different Christopher

1696
01:34:06,320 --> 01:34:10,400
Speaker 3: could be responsible for this crime. But yeah, I just

1697
01:34:10,439 --> 01:34:13,960
Speaker 3: found it very frustrating and like typical of how you know,

1698
01:34:14,000 --> 01:34:16,680
Speaker 3: men are quick to Yeah, I think that this is

1699
01:34:16,760 --> 01:34:21,679
Speaker 3: essentially like a glorified Fridging moment where we haven't killed

1700
01:34:21,720 --> 01:34:24,679
Speaker 3: a woman since the beginning, so let's get a second

1701
01:34:24,720 --> 01:34:27,840
Speaker 3: dead wife in the mix. And the scene is just

1702
01:34:27,920 --> 01:34:33,599
Speaker 3: I thought, so like overwrought with like corny symbolism and

1703
01:34:33,840 --> 01:34:37,240
Speaker 3: the caged birds and the blah blah blah and that

1704
01:34:37,400 --> 01:34:40,200
Speaker 3: like it just I don't know, it was not a

1705
01:34:40,240 --> 01:34:46,600
Speaker 3: worthy departure to this character who are sympathies are with

1706
01:34:47,080 --> 01:34:49,559
Speaker 3: And again it's in the same way. I mean again,

1707
01:34:49,600 --> 01:34:52,720
Speaker 3: she and Olivia are very different characters, but like I

1708
01:34:52,720 --> 01:34:55,080
Speaker 3: think there's one scene where they might be in the

1709
01:34:55,080 --> 01:34:56,680
Speaker 3: same room, but.

1710
01:34:56,840 --> 01:34:59,519
Speaker 2: The other at dinner together the two women, but.

1711
01:34:59,520 --> 01:35:02,559
Speaker 3: They do not speak to each other, and you're just like,

1712
01:35:03,920 --> 01:35:06,360
Speaker 3: I don't know, I don't know. I just it was

1713
01:35:07,120 --> 01:35:10,320
Speaker 3: as with every Christopher Nolan movie in history, basically, the

1714
01:35:10,360 --> 01:35:14,760
Speaker 3: treatment of the only women in the movie was dismissive

1715
01:35:14,880 --> 01:35:16,240
Speaker 3: and frustrating.

1716
01:35:16,680 --> 01:35:19,840
Speaker 2: Which we talk at length about on the I think

1717
01:35:19,840 --> 01:35:24,599
Speaker 2: both the Inception episode and the Dark Night episode as

1718
01:35:24,600 --> 01:35:26,240
Speaker 2: far as like Nolan's.

1719
01:35:25,800 --> 01:35:28,400
Speaker 3: Safe to assume every Nolan movie we've ever covered, we've

1720
01:35:28,400 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 3: had a version of this conversation, for sure, but this

1721
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:34,040
Speaker 3: one too. Sorry, Kayla, what were you gonna say? I

1722
01:35:34,080 --> 01:35:34,519
Speaker 3: was gonna say.

1723
01:35:34,520 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 5: In Magic, we kind of created the magician form of

1724
01:35:38,840 --> 01:35:41,639
Speaker 5: the Bechdel test, which is we call it the table test,

1725
01:35:41,720 --> 01:35:45,800
Speaker 5: which is if your woman assistant can be replaced by

1726
01:35:45,840 --> 01:35:47,200
Speaker 5: a table that.

1727
01:35:47,360 --> 01:35:49,599
Speaker 2: Oh I remember you talking about this on the Now

1728
01:35:49,600 --> 01:35:50,439
Speaker 2: You See Me episode.

1729
01:35:51,080 --> 01:35:54,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think in many ways the women in

1730
01:35:54,360 --> 01:35:57,960
Speaker 5: this movie could easily be replaced by a table, like damn,

1731
01:35:58,320 --> 01:36:01,080
Speaker 5: you know, there's there's a lot of sad death. But

1732
01:36:01,200 --> 01:36:03,840
Speaker 5: besides that, they're at table, right, and that's it. Like,

1733
01:36:03,960 --> 01:36:08,960
Speaker 5: so it is very indicative of how many magicians treat assistants,

1734
01:36:09,479 --> 01:36:14,040
Speaker 5: where they're merely a prop to be manipulated and used

1735
01:36:14,160 --> 01:36:16,920
Speaker 5: for your own gain. So it does feel a lot like,

1736
01:36:17,080 --> 01:36:19,280
Speaker 5: oh yeah, this is like legit, this is how a

1737
01:36:19,280 --> 01:36:22,360
Speaker 5: lot of magicians are. So the movie and the treatment

1738
01:36:22,479 --> 01:36:26,000
Speaker 5: of the women characters are very much similar to how

1739
01:36:26,040 --> 01:36:27,560
Speaker 5: magicians would treat assistance.

1740
01:36:28,800 --> 01:36:32,160
Speaker 3: With that in mind, I'm curious your thoughts about Olivia

1741
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:35,000
Speaker 3: and how she's characterized throughout the film.

1742
01:36:35,360 --> 01:36:36,960
Speaker 5: Is Olivia Scarlet Johansson?

1743
01:36:37,280 --> 01:36:40,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, sorry, I like, honestly it just locked in

1744
01:36:40,880 --> 01:36:42,800
Speaker 3: for me. But yes, the Scarlet I had the character. Yeah,

1745
01:36:42,960 --> 01:36:46,160
Speaker 3: how did you feel about how she was characterized? H yeah.

1746
01:36:46,040 --> 01:36:48,280
Speaker 5: I really should have written down their names, but they

1747
01:36:48,320 --> 01:36:51,960
Speaker 5: were said so minimally that I didn't remember what really

1748
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:53,840
Speaker 5: anybody what their names were, right, And.

1749
01:36:53,840 --> 01:36:57,120
Speaker 3: When the whole cast is movie stars, You're like, yeah, we.

1750
01:36:57,080 --> 01:37:04,600
Speaker 5: Know, yeah, I think in many capacities, like I just

1751
01:37:04,640 --> 01:37:07,680
Speaker 5: going back to sort of any hoodainty based rifle, like

1752
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:10,600
Speaker 5: thinking about Whodini and the spirituals and movement at the

1753
01:37:10,600 --> 01:37:12,559
Speaker 5: time in his weird relationship with it kind of you

1754
01:37:12,600 --> 01:37:15,160
Speaker 5: brought that up earlier. Jamie is like, there was a

1755
01:37:15,200 --> 01:37:19,360
Speaker 5: lot that was done with rivals in the late late

1756
01:37:19,360 --> 01:37:22,800
Speaker 5: eighteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds that would be sending an

1757
01:37:22,800 --> 01:37:26,599
Speaker 5: assistant to get some information or find out more information,

1758
01:37:26,680 --> 01:37:31,559
Speaker 5: Like any sort of manipulative tactics to mess with your

1759
01:37:31,880 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 5: rival was for sure done, even if it was like

1760
01:37:35,400 --> 01:37:38,280
Speaker 5: close to murder. So it does feel like a thing

1761
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:41,120
Speaker 5: that would have been done. But there's another element of

1762
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:45,840
Speaker 5: just like magic in adult as its whole. And I'm

1763
01:37:45,840 --> 01:37:47,519
Speaker 5: going to say this, this is my theory. There are

1764
01:37:47,600 --> 01:37:51,479
Speaker 5: absolutely exceptions, but I really believe that all magicians are

1765
01:37:51,479 --> 01:37:56,599
Speaker 5: one of two diagnoses, and they're either narrative rgent. So

1766
01:37:56,960 --> 01:38:00,919
Speaker 5: I have ADHD. It helps, it's by super on stage.

1767
01:38:01,040 --> 01:38:04,439
Speaker 5: It's great. A lot of magicians are autistic nor aamergent

1768
01:38:04,520 --> 01:38:07,479
Speaker 5: in any capacity. It makes sense because we're super nerdy

1769
01:38:07,560 --> 01:38:10,880
Speaker 5: and there's a lot of hyper focus on things. But

1770
01:38:11,000 --> 01:38:14,200
Speaker 5: also like for me, my brain is so all over

1771
01:38:14,240 --> 01:38:17,320
Speaker 5: the place that performing it really lends a lot to

1772
01:38:17,439 --> 01:38:20,400
Speaker 5: my way of performing in the comedic sensibilities I have,

1773
01:38:20,439 --> 01:38:22,640
Speaker 5: et cetera. But then there is a small subset of

1774
01:38:22,680 --> 01:38:27,680
Speaker 5: magic that is more manipulative and potentially narcissistic that that

1775
01:38:27,760 --> 01:38:30,400
Speaker 5: tends to be what comes out for a lot of

1776
01:38:30,600 --> 01:38:34,760
Speaker 5: magicians and to me in that moment, Hugh Jackman was like, no, no, no,

1777
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:37,280
Speaker 5: this is all about me. Y'all don't actually care about

1778
01:38:37,280 --> 01:38:40,280
Speaker 5: you at all. This is about me go get the secrets,

1779
01:38:40,520 --> 01:38:42,640
Speaker 5: and so it just it really just tracks for a

1780
01:38:42,640 --> 01:38:45,760
Speaker 5: lot of behavior that you see, especially at that time

1781
01:38:45,800 --> 01:38:48,520
Speaker 5: period in the magic world. So it wasn't so surprising

1782
01:38:48,560 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 5: that she would have been manipulated in that way and

1783
01:38:51,439 --> 01:38:54,040
Speaker 5: then also gone and like fall in love with two

1784
01:38:54,040 --> 01:38:56,280
Speaker 5: different magicians. Like there was just a lot there that

1785
01:38:56,400 --> 01:38:58,640
Speaker 5: was like, oh, yeah, I've seen this from people in

1786
01:38:58,680 --> 01:39:00,800
Speaker 5: the magic world. I've seen this from women in the

1787
01:39:00,800 --> 01:39:04,160
Speaker 5: Magic world. Former, yeah, it feels it feels accurate. It

1788
01:39:04,160 --> 01:39:06,960
Speaker 5: didn't need to happen in a movie, but it does feel.

1789
01:39:07,760 --> 01:39:10,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I guess, yeah, I guess I would just

1790
01:39:10,640 --> 01:39:12,960
Speaker 3: go back to, like, again, this is changing the movie

1791
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:14,840
Speaker 3: we have, But it just felt like, because of there's

1792
01:39:14,880 --> 01:39:18,439
Speaker 3: like historical precedent for women to become more powerful in

1793
01:39:18,520 --> 01:39:22,680
Speaker 3: this world, I wish that she had developed into like

1794
01:39:22,720 --> 01:39:25,840
Speaker 3: I don't even care that you know, she's like hooking

1795
01:39:25,920 --> 01:39:29,880
Speaker 3: up with the various magicians. You're like, yeah, that's you know,

1796
01:39:30,000 --> 01:39:34,920
Speaker 3: based in any horny arts community, like that's gonna happen.

1797
01:39:36,200 --> 01:39:38,280
Speaker 3: But it just felt like that was where a lot

1798
01:39:38,280 --> 01:39:41,439
Speaker 3: of her plot relevance stopped. As time went on, which

1799
01:39:41,520 --> 01:39:43,479
Speaker 3: is frustrating because I didn't feel like she was introduced

1800
01:39:43,520 --> 01:39:45,320
Speaker 3: that way. I'm not sure if maybe there's more of

1801
01:39:45,360 --> 01:39:49,639
Speaker 3: a story for her in the novel or less, but yeah,

1802
01:39:49,640 --> 01:39:52,400
Speaker 3: it just felt like by the edge she was a table,

1803
01:39:52,800 --> 01:39:55,640
Speaker 3: you know, she was a warm body to move the platforward,

1804
01:39:56,040 --> 01:39:59,200
Speaker 3: and that's a shame. It is.

1805
01:39:59,360 --> 01:40:02,000
Speaker 5: I'd like to pay which if they ever decide to

1806
01:40:02,040 --> 01:40:04,360
Speaker 5: rebake this movie, which I guess it could happen. They're

1807
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:08,639
Speaker 5: remaking Harry Potter and everything, so it's possible there could

1808
01:40:08,640 --> 01:40:11,280
Speaker 5: be a reboot. I would like to pitch the idea

1809
01:40:11,360 --> 01:40:14,280
Speaker 5: that actually, at the end, when everything is like all

1810
01:40:14,320 --> 01:40:17,760
Speaker 5: the people have been murdered and all of the you know,

1811
01:40:17,840 --> 01:40:20,840
Speaker 5: every all of the deception has been completed, and obviously

1812
01:40:21,200 --> 01:40:23,679
Speaker 5: these two male magicians are not going to be doing

1813
01:40:23,680 --> 01:40:26,360
Speaker 5: magic anytimes too, and that actually we get to see

1814
01:40:26,479 --> 01:40:31,160
Speaker 5: this great spotlight on Scarlett Johansson as super famous magician

1815
01:40:31,240 --> 01:40:35,080
Speaker 5: doing doing magic that doesn't involve twins and deception like

1816
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:37,879
Speaker 5: any you know, outside of the norm sort of magic deception,

1817
01:40:38,040 --> 01:40:41,639
Speaker 5: any sort of personal deception, and she's just some super

1818
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:44,160
Speaker 5: famous magician touring the world and everybody loves her.

1819
01:40:44,280 --> 01:40:47,120
Speaker 3: Like that would be great, She'd be thriving. That would

1820
01:40:47,160 --> 01:40:50,120
Speaker 3: be a fun like even just like a fucking post

1821
01:40:50,160 --> 01:40:53,800
Speaker 3: credits scene or something like that would be cool. And

1822
01:40:53,840 --> 01:40:56,120
Speaker 3: again like fits with the themes of the movie, where

1823
01:40:56,160 --> 01:40:59,599
Speaker 3: it's like, well, did she get all this success by

1824
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:03,240
Speaker 3: and you know, doing it the most ethical way possible. No,

1825
01:41:03,479 --> 01:41:06,120
Speaker 3: but that's not what show business is about, baby, blah

1826
01:41:06,160 --> 01:41:06,920
Speaker 3: blah blah, get.

1827
01:41:06,800 --> 01:41:07,799
Speaker 2: Your hands dirty.

1828
01:41:08,320 --> 01:41:08,559
Speaker 5: Yeah.

1829
01:41:08,640 --> 01:41:11,640
Speaker 2: I feel like there could have easily been a subplot

1830
01:41:11,680 --> 01:41:17,800
Speaker 2: where Olivia while Borden and Angie or are so focused

1831
01:41:17,920 --> 01:41:22,200
Speaker 2: on trying to prove who's the better magician, and they're

1832
01:41:22,240 --> 01:41:24,639
Speaker 2: sabotaging each other and they're going to each other's shows

1833
01:41:24,640 --> 01:41:27,040
Speaker 2: and they're shooting each other and stealing from each other

1834
01:41:27,120 --> 01:41:30,280
Speaker 2: and taking their diaries and blah blah blah this stuff.

1835
01:41:30,840 --> 01:41:37,520
Speaker 2: While they're distracted with that, while they're misdirected, perhaps Olivia

1836
01:41:37,800 --> 01:41:41,400
Speaker 2: is over here like learning all of their tricks, yeah,

1837
01:41:41,439 --> 01:41:44,760
Speaker 2: developing all the skills, and then yeah, rising to prominence

1838
01:41:45,439 --> 01:41:48,519
Speaker 2: without either of them. That would have been cool. I

1839
01:41:48,560 --> 01:41:54,400
Speaker 2: wanted to go back to Sarah Borden's his wife, because okay,

1840
01:41:54,439 --> 01:42:00,519
Speaker 2: so after she dies, you would think there would be

1841
01:42:00,520 --> 01:42:06,800
Speaker 2: a scene where Borden discovers her body or like some

1842
01:42:07,040 --> 01:42:10,519
Speaker 2: aftermath of learning that she has and it's presumably his

1843
01:42:10,880 --> 01:42:14,600
Speaker 2: fault or he was the catalyst for it. But we

1844
01:42:14,760 --> 01:42:17,800
Speaker 2: do not see this on screen at all, Like, why

1845
01:42:17,840 --> 01:42:20,200
Speaker 2: isn't there a scene where he's like, oh my god,

1846
01:42:20,320 --> 01:42:22,639
Speaker 2: my beloved wife is dead, like.

1847
01:42:22,920 --> 01:42:25,599
Speaker 3: Right, which is because we get plenty of that from

1848
01:42:25,840 --> 01:42:28,759
Speaker 3: Hugh Jackman at the beginning. We get multiple long shots

1849
01:42:28,800 --> 01:42:31,800
Speaker 3: of him like punching the wall, being like a what not?

1850
01:42:32,040 --> 01:42:32,320
Speaker 5: Was it?

1851
01:42:32,439 --> 01:42:35,400
Speaker 2: He's trying to drown himself it seems at one point.

1852
01:42:35,280 --> 01:42:38,719
Speaker 3: Oh my god, Yeah, he's so dramatic, right.

1853
01:42:38,920 --> 01:42:43,719
Speaker 2: Instead, what we see bordon do is tell Olivia that

1854
01:42:43,920 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 2: he never loved Sarah, he never loved his wife. He

1855
01:42:48,080 --> 01:42:51,240
Speaker 2: loves Olivia, blah blah blah. And I would say, at

1856
01:42:51,320 --> 01:42:54,280
Speaker 2: least to the story's credit, Olivia says like, how are

1857
01:42:54,360 --> 01:42:58,880
Speaker 2: you so cold? Sarah was your wife, She was an

1858
01:42:58,880 --> 01:43:01,720
Speaker 2: important part of your life. Now she's gone, and you

1859
01:43:01,720 --> 01:43:04,599
Speaker 2: don't seem to give a shit at all. And it's

1860
01:43:04,600 --> 01:43:06,799
Speaker 2: at that point of the movie where I think Olivia

1861
01:43:06,880 --> 01:43:10,120
Speaker 2: kind of disappears from this story, but at least she

1862
01:43:10,240 --> 01:43:13,519
Speaker 2: calls him out for this. But also, yes, the Borden,

1863
01:43:13,520 --> 01:43:15,759
Speaker 2: we're seeing, right there is not the one who's married

1864
01:43:15,800 --> 01:43:20,559
Speaker 2: to Sarah, but that Borden still had a relationship with Sarah.

1865
01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:23,400
Speaker 2: She was his sister in law. He pretended to be

1866
01:43:23,760 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 2: her husband half of the time. Surely he had some

1867
01:43:27,600 --> 01:43:30,920
Speaker 2: connection with her and some affection for her, and surely

1868
01:43:30,960 --> 01:43:34,280
Speaker 2: he would be upset that she died even if she

1869
01:43:34,479 --> 01:43:39,439
Speaker 2: wasn't his wife, But like, he is so callous about

1870
01:43:39,479 --> 01:43:43,400
Speaker 2: her death, and so what the fuck is that? And

1871
01:43:43,439 --> 01:43:47,880
Speaker 2: then also if the movie wants to hit this theme harder,

1872
01:43:48,080 --> 01:43:51,920
Speaker 2: of like the sacrifices you have to make to be

1873
01:43:52,160 --> 01:43:55,760
Speaker 2: a great artist or a great performer or whatever in

1874
01:43:55,800 --> 01:43:59,160
Speaker 2: the movies trying to examine like, sure, these types of

1875
01:43:59,160 --> 01:44:03,639
Speaker 2: things usually means some sort of sacrifice, but at what cost.

1876
01:44:04,479 --> 01:44:09,519
Speaker 2: The movie doesn't care about the cost it takes on

1877
01:44:09,760 --> 01:44:13,080
Speaker 2: their relationships. It really only cares about the cost of

1878
01:44:13,200 --> 01:44:17,400
Speaker 2: like their own lives, because most of the men end

1879
01:44:17,479 --> 01:44:19,680
Speaker 2: up dead by the end of the story. And it's like, well,

1880
01:44:19,680 --> 01:44:21,800
Speaker 2: those are the stakes. But it's also like, well, the

1881
01:44:21,840 --> 01:44:26,960
Speaker 2: stakes are also your meaningful relationships in your life, and

1882
01:44:27,200 --> 01:44:30,800
Speaker 2: several of those happen to be with your romantic partners,

1883
01:44:31,600 --> 01:44:34,599
Speaker 2: your daughter, and like the movie just it doesn't seem

1884
01:44:34,640 --> 01:44:37,200
Speaker 2: like it cares about that that much.

1885
01:44:37,439 --> 01:44:40,839
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel like I I mean, I'm not gonna

1886
01:44:40,920 --> 01:44:43,000
Speaker 3: like cut it any side, but it feels like for

1887
01:44:43,120 --> 01:44:47,200
Speaker 3: the end to pay off, you have to like ignore

1888
01:44:47,400 --> 01:44:51,000
Speaker 3: certain character dynamics for it to be authentic. And like

1889
01:44:51,240 --> 01:44:54,559
Speaker 3: Sarah is the first person on the chopping block in

1890
01:44:54,680 --> 01:44:58,240
Speaker 3: terms of like her death making any coherent sense. And

1891
01:44:58,240 --> 01:45:00,000
Speaker 3: again it's like they should have just made a different

1892
01:45:00,080 --> 01:45:02,800
Speaker 3: for a different decision with that character. Like there are

1893
01:45:02,960 --> 01:45:07,719
Speaker 3: equally upsetting like you know, in a world where Sarah

1894
01:45:07,760 --> 01:45:09,240
Speaker 3: and I know this would have been less common at

1895
01:45:09,280 --> 01:45:11,360
Speaker 3: the time, but like a world where Sarah left him

1896
01:45:11,800 --> 01:45:14,640
Speaker 3: and took the daughter instead of killing her off in

1897
01:45:14,720 --> 01:45:19,160
Speaker 3: this really gruesome, I think underthought way. And then like

1898
01:45:19,200 --> 01:45:22,920
Speaker 3: you're saying, Kitlin, like not show the characters react. And

1899
01:45:23,000 --> 01:45:25,920
Speaker 3: it also that chafes a little bit with like who

1900
01:45:26,000 --> 01:45:28,400
Speaker 3: I understood Bordon to be. I think that like what

1901
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:30,320
Speaker 3: we're supposed to think in the moment and what I

1902
01:45:30,360 --> 01:45:33,280
Speaker 3: assumed because I forgot the twist at the end. I

1903
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:36,960
Speaker 3: was like, oh, he's so, you know, like poisoned by

1904
01:45:37,120 --> 01:45:40,559
Speaker 3: fame and he has this like bad goateea now and

1905
01:45:40,600 --> 01:45:43,439
Speaker 3: he's blah blah bl like he's he's he does he

1906
01:45:43,479 --> 01:45:48,400
Speaker 3: doesn't care what happens. But it's like, yeah, again, theoretically,

1907
01:45:49,120 --> 01:45:51,880
Speaker 3: if we're like Cinema sendsing the plot a little bit,

1908
01:45:52,280 --> 01:45:55,760
Speaker 3: like this would be a big problem between Borden and

1909
01:45:55,840 --> 01:45:59,040
Speaker 3: his brother. This would be a huge problem.

1910
01:45:58,840 --> 01:46:01,960
Speaker 2: Right, Like you got to convince my wife that I

1911
01:46:02,000 --> 01:46:05,920
Speaker 2: love her, and now she's dead and now I hate you. Bro.

1912
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:11,040
Speaker 3: Yeah the jig and we already know how like whatever,

1913
01:46:11,080 --> 01:46:15,799
Speaker 3: Borden has ended a long standing relationship over a very

1914
01:46:15,840 --> 01:46:20,840
Speaker 3: similar issue before a dead wife problem. But but that

1915
01:46:21,000 --> 01:46:23,800
Speaker 3: spoils the reveal and all this other stuff where it's like, yeah,

1916
01:46:23,800 --> 01:46:25,599
Speaker 3: for the for the plot of the movie to work,

1917
01:46:25,720 --> 01:46:28,679
Speaker 3: you just sort of have to, Like it's interesting who

1918
01:46:28,720 --> 01:46:31,920
Speaker 3: the movie assumes that you will ignore and forget about,

1919
01:46:32,200 --> 01:46:34,639
Speaker 3: And it's the women characters who they've founder written the.

1920
01:46:34,720 --> 01:46:38,679
Speaker 2: Entire time, right, Yeah, not to mention, the movie doesn't

1921
01:46:38,760 --> 01:46:46,040
Speaker 2: even acknowledge the abuse inherent in not telling your wife

1922
01:46:46,080 --> 01:46:49,479
Speaker 2: that sometimes you're a different guy. Like, yeah, that's the

1923
01:46:49,960 --> 01:46:55,439
Speaker 2: manipulation that is full of sault and abuse, and like

1924
01:46:55,720 --> 01:46:58,760
Speaker 2: why wouldn't they tell them?

1925
01:46:59,040 --> 01:46:59,240
Speaker 4: Right?

1926
01:46:59,400 --> 01:47:02,679
Speaker 5: Why if I were a twin? It would be weird

1927
01:47:03,080 --> 01:47:06,160
Speaker 5: to be like, Hey, could you actually go to my

1928
01:47:06,320 --> 01:47:08,680
Speaker 5: home today? I don't feel like it. Why don't you

1929
01:47:08,720 --> 01:47:11,559
Speaker 5: do it? That's weird? Yeah that makes no sense.

1930
01:47:11,600 --> 01:47:13,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, can you kiss my wife today?

1931
01:47:13,600 --> 01:47:17,080
Speaker 3: I'm right, I'm busy, I'm busy. Yeah, you're like, what

1932
01:47:17,240 --> 01:47:17,960
Speaker 3: is the reason?

1933
01:47:18,400 --> 01:47:18,719
Speaker 5: Yeah?

1934
01:47:18,760 --> 01:47:23,160
Speaker 3: What is the reason? That's like. But you're like, but

1935
01:47:23,720 --> 01:47:26,920
Speaker 3: that seems more complicated than just going home?

1936
01:47:28,160 --> 01:47:28,960
Speaker 5: And whose daughter?

1937
01:47:29,120 --> 01:47:29,439
Speaker 2: Is it?

1938
01:47:29,680 --> 01:47:34,280
Speaker 5: Like? There's just it's it's I just have so many questions, right, So.

1939
01:47:34,200 --> 01:47:36,920
Speaker 3: The twins, I think that it's it. I guess we're

1940
01:47:37,080 --> 01:47:41,679
Speaker 3: to believe that she is reunited with her biology.

1941
01:47:41,720 --> 01:47:46,200
Speaker 2: That is confirmed. Yeah, the biological father of the little

1942
01:47:46,280 --> 01:47:47,959
Speaker 2: girl whose name is Jess.

1943
01:47:48,200 --> 01:47:50,920
Speaker 3: But you're just I'm sort of like, what Michael Caine

1944
01:47:51,000 --> 01:47:53,320
Speaker 3: raise her? Like? I you know, it seems like her

1945
01:47:53,439 --> 01:47:55,240
Speaker 3: the odds would be better for her.

1946
01:47:56,040 --> 01:47:56,160
Speaker 5: Uh.

1947
01:47:56,320 --> 01:47:59,520
Speaker 3: Not that Michael Caine seems like an ideal caretaker.

1948
01:47:59,680 --> 01:48:01,519
Speaker 5: But he's better.

1949
01:48:01,920 --> 01:48:04,200
Speaker 3: He hasn't he's to As far as I know, he's

1950
01:48:04,240 --> 01:48:06,920
Speaker 3: only killed birds. I don't think he's killed people.

1951
01:48:07,479 --> 01:48:11,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, so no, twin, No twin, doesn't twin.

1952
01:48:11,600 --> 01:48:15,880
Speaker 2: That he's switching off his life with Yeah, yeah, there.

1953
01:48:15,840 --> 01:48:18,599
Speaker 5: Is a narrative that happens. And this is not only

1954
01:48:18,680 --> 01:48:22,000
Speaker 5: to the magic worlds, but it's a narrative that exists everywhere.

1955
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:24,120
Speaker 5: But I just know I've heard it a lot. Like

1956
01:48:24,160 --> 01:48:27,400
Speaker 5: if you go to a magic convention, the chances of

1957
01:48:27,800 --> 01:48:32,240
Speaker 5: like a sixty ish year old white guy just complaining

1958
01:48:32,280 --> 01:48:34,880
Speaker 5: a lot about how his wife doesn't understand him as

1959
01:48:34,920 --> 01:48:38,120
Speaker 5: a magician and therefore she won't come to conventions anymore

1960
01:48:38,120 --> 01:48:40,720
Speaker 5: because she hates magic and she doesn't like that I

1961
01:48:40,840 --> 01:48:43,720
Speaker 5: do it, and I've taken over our guest room with

1962
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:46,519
Speaker 5: all of my magic stuff and my wife hates it.

1963
01:48:46,640 --> 01:48:49,840
Speaker 5: And my wife, my wife, my wife. It's so and

1964
01:48:49,920 --> 01:48:51,599
Speaker 5: I know that's everywhere, but it is like a really

1965
01:48:51,600 --> 01:48:54,240
Speaker 5: interesting thing to be like, oh, there's your wife. Are

1966
01:48:54,240 --> 01:48:56,760
Speaker 5: we exploring the fact that your wife just doesn't understand

1967
01:48:56,840 --> 01:48:59,040
Speaker 5: that this is your who you are and what you

1968
01:48:59,080 --> 01:49:01,800
Speaker 5: do or what is what is this? And I think

1969
01:49:01,880 --> 01:49:04,200
Speaker 5: ultimately it's just nothing. It's just let's move the plot.

1970
01:49:04,240 --> 01:49:06,479
Speaker 5: It's a plot point, but it is just sort of

1971
01:49:06,479 --> 01:49:08,880
Speaker 5: thing to be like, oh, yeah, that's right. A lot

1972
01:49:08,920 --> 01:49:11,439
Speaker 5: of people complain that their wives don't understand them and

1973
01:49:11,600 --> 01:49:14,080
Speaker 5: their magic tricks and she won't pick a card for

1974
01:49:14,160 --> 01:49:16,680
Speaker 5: me anymore because she's sick of it. I get it.

1975
01:49:17,439 --> 01:49:19,360
Speaker 5: I'm sick of it. I get it.

1976
01:49:19,680 --> 01:49:22,360
Speaker 3: I think I think that there is especially in and

1977
01:49:22,439 --> 01:49:25,000
Speaker 3: this is like a lesson that i've again like I've

1978
01:49:25,000 --> 01:49:26,920
Speaker 3: been on both sides of I'm assuming we kind of

1979
01:49:27,000 --> 01:49:31,360
Speaker 3: all have is like it's especially it's like creative, like

1980
01:49:31,439 --> 01:49:33,880
Speaker 3: if someone if you're creative in someone's day to you,

1981
01:49:34,160 --> 01:49:37,000
Speaker 3: like I almost am like, it's weird if they're coming

1982
01:49:37,040 --> 01:49:40,719
Speaker 3: to every show, like there should be boundaries in place,

1983
01:49:41,120 --> 01:49:44,200
Speaker 3: and it's like there's there's a line between like I

1984
01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:47,040
Speaker 3: feel supported. It would be, it would be it would

1985
01:49:47,040 --> 01:49:49,800
Speaker 3: make me feel sad if my partner came to no

1986
01:49:50,000 --> 01:49:54,200
Speaker 3: shows ever. Sure, but I would also be kind of

1987
01:49:54,280 --> 01:49:56,880
Speaker 3: like it's not I don't know. When someone's like, my

1988
01:49:56,880 --> 01:49:59,240
Speaker 3: my wife comes to every show, You're like, that's beautiful.

1989
01:50:00,120 --> 01:50:01,320
Speaker 3: I am sort of like.

1990
01:50:01,920 --> 01:50:04,519
Speaker 2: What does she need to and are you going to

1991
01:50:04,600 --> 01:50:08,400
Speaker 2: every single one of her things? Whatever she's got going on?

1992
01:50:08,640 --> 01:50:08,720
Speaker 5: What?

1993
01:50:08,840 --> 01:50:12,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, how are you? How are you reciprocating? I mean again,

1994
01:50:12,120 --> 01:50:15,160
Speaker 3: two each their own, But I think like, yeah, it's

1995
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:18,000
Speaker 3: I mean speaking to that dynamic, Kayla, It's like I

1996
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:21,040
Speaker 3: want you know, Sarah, I would imagine Sarah is not

1997
01:50:21,120 --> 01:50:23,479
Speaker 3: as interested in It might not even be that she's

1998
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:27,240
Speaker 3: not interested. She's probably just raising their child, which he

1999
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:29,120
Speaker 3: is not doing. In spite of the fact that there's

2000
01:50:29,160 --> 01:50:31,439
Speaker 3: two of him and one kid. He actually should be

2001
01:50:31,680 --> 01:50:34,719
Speaker 3: present more, you would think, right.

2002
01:50:34,800 --> 01:50:37,679
Speaker 2: And if they're in a committed relationship where they love

2003
01:50:37,840 --> 01:50:43,280
Speaker 2: and trust each other, why wouldn't you tell your wife

2004
01:50:43,600 --> 01:50:45,760
Speaker 2: that you have a twin brother and say, hey, make

2005
01:50:45,760 --> 01:50:49,400
Speaker 2: sure don't tell anyone else like this. Maintaining this secret

2006
01:50:49,479 --> 01:50:53,640
Speaker 2: is crucial to the integrity of my career. But I

2007
01:50:53,640 --> 01:50:56,240
Speaker 2: guess integrity is a funny word there. But like to

2008
01:50:56,320 --> 01:51:01,680
Speaker 2: maintain my illusions, my magic, you have to keep this

2009
01:51:01,840 --> 01:51:05,360
Speaker 2: under wraps because, like being in an intimate relationship with

2010
01:51:05,439 --> 01:51:08,320
Speaker 2: someone does, there is a level of trust that you

2011
01:51:08,400 --> 01:51:09,880
Speaker 2: have to agree to do with each other. And it

2012
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:12,559
Speaker 2: seems like they probably had that, or at least that

2013
01:51:12,640 --> 01:51:15,679
Speaker 2: Sarah was willing and able to be a trustworthy partner

2014
01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:19,280
Speaker 2: for him. But as it's so often the case, men

2015
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:25,080
Speaker 2: have trouble reciprocating the honesty and vulnerability and emotional labor

2016
01:51:25,400 --> 01:51:29,000
Speaker 2: that is necessary to maintain a relationship.

2017
01:51:29,640 --> 01:51:32,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, which just means more of like the table of

2018
01:51:33,240 --> 01:51:36,519
Speaker 3: it all the like, Yeah, the women of this movie

2019
01:51:36,560 --> 01:51:41,640
Speaker 3: are more like stakes machines than someone whose like interior

2020
01:51:41,720 --> 01:51:44,920
Speaker 3: life is really being thought about, which again is just like,

2021
01:51:45,760 --> 01:51:47,800
Speaker 3: as much as I love a lot of his work,

2022
01:51:48,200 --> 01:51:50,599
Speaker 3: the least surprising thing to hear about a Christopher Nolan

2023
01:51:50,640 --> 01:51:54,120
Speaker 3: movie that you could possibly hear, like, I guess he

2024
01:51:54,240 --> 01:51:57,960
Speaker 3: sort of tried to write a woman in Oppenheimer, but like,

2025
01:51:58,160 --> 01:52:00,920
Speaker 3: it's just not gonna happen at this point, and I

2026
01:52:00,960 --> 01:52:02,840
Speaker 3: don't At this point, I'm like, I don't even want

2027
01:52:02,880 --> 01:52:04,599
Speaker 3: him to. I don't even want him to. I don't

2028
01:52:04,600 --> 01:52:06,679
Speaker 3: want to. I don't want to know after like five

2029
01:52:06,760 --> 01:52:08,960
Speaker 3: hundred years what he's like. Wait a second, Like, I

2030
01:52:08,960 --> 01:52:11,360
Speaker 3: don't want to know what he thinks we're thinking, right,

2031
01:52:11,439 --> 01:52:12,479
Speaker 3: that's none of my business.

2032
01:52:12,880 --> 01:52:17,280
Speaker 2: Speaking of Christopher Nolan, so he directed the movie. Of course,

2033
01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:22,400
Speaker 2: he co wrote the screenplay with his brother, Yeah, which

2034
01:52:22,479 --> 01:52:25,080
Speaker 2: Jonathan Nolan he works with all the time. He works

2035
01:52:25,080 --> 01:52:26,680
Speaker 2: with all the time. They co write a lot of

2036
01:52:26,720 --> 01:52:29,240
Speaker 2: scripts together. But the joke I was trying to like

2037
01:52:29,560 --> 01:52:32,720
Speaker 2: craft in my head was like, what if there's a

2038
01:52:32,840 --> 01:52:37,439
Speaker 2: reverse prestige thing happening with these two brothers where we

2039
01:52:37,520 --> 01:52:40,840
Speaker 2: think they're brothers but it's really just one man, because

2040
01:52:40,880 --> 01:52:44,639
Speaker 2: has anyone even seen Jonathan Nolan in public?

2041
01:52:45,040 --> 01:52:45,400
Speaker 3: Wow?

2042
01:52:45,520 --> 01:52:49,840
Speaker 2: Okay, have we seen them together? Are there even two men?

2043
01:52:50,000 --> 01:52:52,120
Speaker 2: I think it's just Christopher Nolan.

2044
01:52:52,080 --> 01:52:55,040
Speaker 3: Poor Jonathan catching astray?

2045
01:52:55,080 --> 01:52:58,720
Speaker 5: So does that mean that, like they both have partners

2046
01:52:58,960 --> 01:53:01,559
Speaker 5: that only want them, is actually married to both of them?

2047
01:53:01,920 --> 01:53:03,559
Speaker 2: One man is married to both of them.

2048
01:53:03,600 --> 01:53:08,200
Speaker 3: They're both married to Emma Thompson. No, that's I don't know.

2049
01:53:08,240 --> 01:53:10,320
Speaker 5: It's I don't know what's messy or the movie or

2050
01:53:10,360 --> 01:53:13,040
Speaker 5: that plot, like it's it's great.

2051
01:53:13,960 --> 01:53:18,600
Speaker 2: That's just my little head cannon, but it's probably not true.

2052
01:53:19,360 --> 01:53:21,639
Speaker 2: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to talk about?

2053
01:53:21,680 --> 01:53:25,120
Speaker 2: We've been talking for the run time of the movie.

2054
01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:27,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think let's let's call it. Let's go unless

2055
01:53:27,760 --> 01:53:30,519
Speaker 3: unless kill it, unless you have more to get into.

2056
01:53:31,000 --> 01:53:31,920
Speaker 3: That was everything I had.

2057
01:53:32,400 --> 01:53:35,160
Speaker 5: There's always so much of a rabbit hole I could

2058
01:53:35,160 --> 01:53:38,000
Speaker 5: go down with weird magic history, But today is we've

2059
01:53:38,320 --> 01:53:42,880
Speaker 5: talked enough, we get it. Magic's weird, it's great, this

2060
01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:43,439
Speaker 5: is awesome.

2061
01:53:43,640 --> 01:53:46,880
Speaker 2: Rabbit hole pulling a rabbit out of a hat?

2062
01:53:48,160 --> 01:53:50,639
Speaker 3: Is that a fishing fish bowl, fish pole?

2063
01:53:51,360 --> 01:53:52,080
Speaker 2: Rabbit hole?

2064
01:53:54,880 --> 01:53:58,400
Speaker 3: Yes, so sit with that. Listeners think about that.

2065
01:53:58,400 --> 01:54:00,600
Speaker 5: That's really why we're all here today.

2066
01:54:02,360 --> 01:54:04,719
Speaker 2: The movie does not pass the Bechdel test. As we said,

2067
01:54:05,000 --> 01:54:09,040
Speaker 2: there is a scene where Olivia is telling one of

2068
01:54:09,040 --> 01:54:13,160
Speaker 2: the Burdens. She's like, the day before Sarah died, she

2069
01:54:13,680 --> 01:54:15,920
Speaker 2: told me that she wanted to meet with me, but

2070
01:54:16,000 --> 01:54:18,400
Speaker 2: I chickened out and I didn't end up meeting with her,

2071
01:54:18,640 --> 01:54:22,679
Speaker 2: And then Olivia wonders what Sarah might have said. So

2072
01:54:22,880 --> 01:54:26,040
Speaker 2: there's sort of like a speculation of a conversation that

2073
01:54:26,080 --> 01:54:27,559
Speaker 2: could have happened between two women.

2074
01:54:27,680 --> 01:54:30,040
Speaker 3: Does it pass the Bechdel test if a woman thought

2075
01:54:30,040 --> 01:54:34,600
Speaker 3: about talking to another woman and that ultimately didn't a conversation,

2076
01:54:34,680 --> 01:54:37,000
Speaker 3: by the way, that would have been about men, Yes.

2077
01:54:36,920 --> 01:54:41,520
Speaker 2: Yeah for sure. Yeah no, so no. But rating the

2078
01:54:41,560 --> 01:54:45,880
Speaker 2: movie on the Bechdel cast nipple scale, where we rate

2079
01:54:46,440 --> 01:54:48,800
Speaker 2: from a scale of zero to five nipples based on

2080
01:54:48,880 --> 01:54:53,040
Speaker 2: examining the movie through an intersectional feminist lens, you know

2081
01:54:54,240 --> 01:55:01,440
Speaker 2: this gets a half nipple because I would say we

2082
01:55:01,480 --> 01:55:07,320
Speaker 2: see Julia, the first fridged wife who gets killed during

2083
01:55:07,320 --> 01:55:10,720
Speaker 2: the magic trick. We see her do magic, we see her,

2084
01:55:11,040 --> 01:55:14,840
Speaker 2: we see an escape artist act from her. Uh, she's

2085
01:55:14,880 --> 01:55:18,560
Speaker 2: barely acknowledged as doing such by the movie, but you

2086
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:23,120
Speaker 2: know we're seeing we see her, there's visibility, So because

2087
01:55:23,120 --> 01:55:25,880
Speaker 2: of that, a half nipple, and I give it to

2088
01:55:27,360 --> 01:55:30,360
Speaker 2: the duplicated cats who are just kind of running around

2089
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:33,200
Speaker 2: in the snow. I got Tesla's headquarters.

2090
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:36,640
Speaker 3: I loved it. I loved it. I've gotta I've gotta

2091
01:55:36,680 --> 01:55:38,600
Speaker 3: say it's a little it's a little harsh for a

2092
01:55:38,640 --> 01:55:40,800
Speaker 3: movie I enjoy so much, but I gotta go zero.

2093
01:55:40,920 --> 01:55:44,560
Speaker 3: I gotta go zero. I what I really appreciate is

2094
01:55:44,960 --> 01:55:47,760
Speaker 3: I was really looking forward to this conversation because I

2095
01:55:47,840 --> 01:55:50,280
Speaker 3: knew Kayla was going to have some incredible background, and

2096
01:55:51,000 --> 01:55:53,760
Speaker 3: sure enough, you did not disappoint. Yeah, yes, you once

2097
01:55:53,800 --> 01:55:56,720
Speaker 3: again delivered you always do, and thank you for giving.

2098
01:55:56,800 --> 01:56:01,080
Speaker 3: I'm like more excited about what you told us about historically,

2099
01:56:01,480 --> 01:56:03,360
Speaker 3: and I'm going to think about a woman being sowd

2100
01:56:03,360 --> 01:56:07,080
Speaker 3: in half because of suffrage for so long. So it's

2101
01:56:07,120 --> 01:56:09,720
Speaker 3: worth the ride. It's a fun it's a fun movie.

2102
01:56:09,840 --> 01:56:12,120
Speaker 3: I enjoy it. I like, I still really enjoy it.

2103
01:56:12,680 --> 01:56:18,800
Speaker 3: But no nipples. No nipples. Women appear but mostly to

2104
01:56:18,840 --> 01:56:24,920
Speaker 3: be fridged or caught up in a twisted assault based

2105
01:56:25,160 --> 01:56:26,520
Speaker 3: sexual relationship.

2106
01:56:27,880 --> 01:56:30,360
Speaker 2: So yeah, Cayla, how about.

2107
01:56:30,160 --> 01:56:33,440
Speaker 5: You I would have. I think, like inherently I also

2108
01:56:33,480 --> 01:56:37,000
Speaker 5: would have get it half a nipple because of Julia,

2109
01:56:37,360 --> 01:56:40,680
Speaker 5: who did, in fact do like a very difficult escape.

2110
01:56:41,320 --> 01:56:44,480
Speaker 5: But then there was an immediate minus of half nipple

2111
01:56:44,640 --> 01:56:48,840
Speaker 5: with the Chungling Shue situation, and so I think ultimately

2112
01:56:48,840 --> 01:56:51,040
Speaker 5: it's zero. But if I were to give it to anybody,

2113
01:56:51,120 --> 01:56:53,000
Speaker 5: I would want to give it to Andy Serkis, who

2114
01:56:53,040 --> 01:56:57,720
Speaker 5: really had to act his way into convincing everybody how

2115
01:56:57,720 --> 01:56:58,680
Speaker 5: great Tesla.

2116
01:56:58,520 --> 01:57:03,400
Speaker 2: Was in an American accent no less.

2117
01:57:03,960 --> 01:57:06,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, I love to see him walking up. I just

2118
01:57:07,000 --> 01:57:09,920
Speaker 3: was so I forgot that. Caitlin. You you reminded me.

2119
01:57:09,960 --> 01:57:11,680
Speaker 3: Andy Serkus was in this and I like had a

2120
01:57:11,680 --> 01:57:14,880
Speaker 3: little squeal. I love him. He should get to be

2121
01:57:14,960 --> 01:57:16,960
Speaker 3: people more. Well, I don't know. He should do whatever

2122
01:57:16,960 --> 01:57:17,400
Speaker 3: he wants.

2123
01:57:17,720 --> 01:57:21,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, his his body of work, his choice.

2124
01:57:22,480 --> 01:57:25,600
Speaker 3: Yes, sometimes so if there's one thing he's gonna do,

2125
01:57:25,760 --> 01:57:29,320
Speaker 3: he's gonna put the dots on. He loves to put

2126
01:57:29,360 --> 01:57:31,920
Speaker 3: the dots on, and I and no one puts the

2127
01:57:31,960 --> 01:57:37,040
Speaker 3: dots on like him. Benedict Cumberbatch tried true.

2128
01:57:37,280 --> 01:57:40,280
Speaker 2: Benedict Cumberbatch is the other actor who plays the main

2129
01:57:40,360 --> 01:57:43,200
Speaker 2: character in the current War twenty seventeen.

2130
01:57:43,440 --> 01:57:45,600
Speaker 3: Wow, never forget it.

2131
01:57:45,560 --> 01:57:49,440
Speaker 2: All comes full circle, Kayla, thank you so much for

2132
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:54,800
Speaker 2: joining us a what a magical conversation. Where can people

2133
01:57:55,520 --> 01:57:59,240
Speaker 2: follow you? Tell us more about your venue and your shows?

2134
01:57:59,760 --> 01:58:02,720
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you can follow me my Instagram and everything

2135
01:58:02,840 --> 01:58:05,400
Speaker 5: is magic and heels heels like your shoes, not like

2136
01:58:05,480 --> 01:58:07,960
Speaker 5: a doctor. I do have to say that now for

2137
01:58:08,120 --> 01:58:10,600
Speaker 5: reasons double e to be clear.

2138
01:58:10,720 --> 01:58:11,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

2139
01:58:11,080 --> 01:58:13,640
Speaker 5: And the venue that I now co own with my

2140
01:58:13,640 --> 01:58:16,760
Speaker 5: partner Harrison is called Cosmic Underground Theater, which is also

2141
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Speaker 5: our social media handles. You can see us perform every weekend,

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Speaker 5: Fridays and Saturdays in Chicago. So if you're in Chicago,

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Speaker 5: we want to come to a cool show. Come, we'd

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Speaker 5: love to have you.

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Speaker 3: Please, great, kay.

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Speaker 5: Thank you both so much for having me. This is great.

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Speaker 5: I was love being here, so thank you for having

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Speaker 5: me again.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for coming back. This is I just always

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Speaker 3: learn a million new things that I'm fascinated by every

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01:58:38,800 --> 01:58:41,840
Speaker 3: time we talk. So you can find us in all

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Speaker 3: the regular places AKA our Patriot akar Matreon. We're for

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Speaker 3: five dollars a month. You can get to bonus episodes

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01:58:50,200 --> 01:58:53,720
Speaker 3: with just Caitlin and myself on a theme. Usually of

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01:58:53,760 --> 01:58:59,000
Speaker 3: your choosing. Sometimes we disrespect democracy and as well as

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Speaker 3: access to our black catalog of nearly two hundred episodes.

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Speaker 2: Which includes more men being bitches to each other.

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Speaker 3: It's true. This is an important entry to the canon,

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Speaker 3: and I'm glad that we got around to it as

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Speaker 3: we work our way through the men being bitches subgenre. Yes,

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Speaker 3: absolutely yes.

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01:59:18,880 --> 01:59:23,880
Speaker 2: And with that we're going to disappear abracadabra fie.

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01:59:23,960 --> 01:59:31,400
Speaker 3: Then we die fye. The Bechdel Cast is a production

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Speaker 3: of iHeartMedia, hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus.

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Speaker 2: And Me Caitlyn Durrante. The podcast is also produced by

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Speaker 2: Sophie Lichtermann and.

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01:59:40,680 --> 01:59:43,000
Speaker 3: Edited by Caitlyn Durrante. Ever heard of Them?

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Speaker 2: That's me and our logo and merch and all of

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Speaker 2: our artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus, Ever

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01:59:50,720 --> 01:59:51,200
Speaker 2: heard of her?

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Speaker 3: Oh my God? And our theme song, by the way,

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01:59:54,520 --> 01:59:56,280
Speaker 3: was composed by Mike Kaplan.

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01:59:56,160 --> 01:59:59,280
Speaker 2: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

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Speaker 3: Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only

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Speaker 3: Aristotle Acevedo.

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Speaker 2: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash

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Speaker 2: Spectelcast