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Speaker 1: Hey guys, you're back on normally the show Normalist takes

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Speaker 1: when the news gets weird.

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Speaker 2: I'm Mary Doubor New and I'm Carol Markowitz. Very happy

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Speaker 2: to have you back. Mary. Catherine Gates Garcia from The

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Speaker 2: People podcast did a fantastic job as a guest Hols,

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Speaker 2: but it is so nice to have you back. And uh,

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Speaker 2: let's do this.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it talking foreign policy us off. Yes, they

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Speaker 1: will have a summit at the White House, and by

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Speaker 1: day I mean everybody.

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Speaker 2: Everybody in the whole world.

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Speaker 3: So over the.

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Speaker 2: Weekend, Yeah, started up. Over the weekend, Donald Trump met

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Speaker 2: with Vladimir Putin, and as we're recording this, he's going

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Speaker 2: to be meeting with Vladimir Zelenski. We're not going to

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Speaker 2: get too into these meetings because we don't know what

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Speaker 2: news will we made today, but we'll maybe say more

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Speaker 2: about it on Wednesday, depending on what happens. I will

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Speaker 2: say that people who openly want Trump to fail, we're

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Speaker 2: very out there this weekend and I did not appreciate it.

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Speaker 2: And I say this as somebody who has no love

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Speaker 2: for Russia, which is I could wave my magic wand

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Speaker 2: and have Ukraine when this war thinks Ukraine has done

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Speaker 2: a fantastic job of holding Russia back. Still thinks that

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Speaker 2: probably they need to reach some sort of compromise. And

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Speaker 2: while it's unfortunate to give Russia anything, I think that's

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Speaker 2: probably where it's going to end up, to end this thing.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think if you set the table and say, Okay,

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Speaker 1: what did I like and not like about Trump going

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Speaker 1: to Alaska?

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Speaker 3: Loved that.

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Speaker 1: I think it's good that we're meeting in Alaska. It

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Speaker 1: was an American site, not a neutral site. As a result,

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Speaker 1: the B two bomber and we're so cool fly right

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Speaker 1: over Putin's head as that arrived.

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Speaker 2: I mean I heard people call that like some sort

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Speaker 2: of like pro putent move. I did see that as

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Speaker 2: a pro putent move at all. I thought that as

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Speaker 2: FAFO bro, like you know.

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Speaker 3: You owned the sky.

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Speaker 1: This is an unambiguous flex of American military might. And

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Speaker 1: Putin is a power dude, right, Like that's what he

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Speaker 1: reads has power and there it is, right in front

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Speaker 1: of your face.

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Speaker 3: So I liked that.

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Speaker 4: I worry about Trump being unduly influenced.

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Speaker 3: By the guy he last talked to, and that guy

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Speaker 3: is Putin.

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Speaker 1: We don't like that, however, it sounds like Putin, as

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Speaker 1: you might expect, wasn't interested in peace. In that moment,

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Speaker 1: everyone flew back home. Trump calls the Euros, he calls

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Speaker 1: the Eros, the Euros who he kind of likes right

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Speaker 1: now because NATO's doing the things that he wanted NATO

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Speaker 1: to do. He calls them up and he's like, ah,

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Speaker 1: you know, I could be open to some security assurances

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Speaker 1: from the West. This guy maybe kind of ticked him off.

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Speaker 1: Putin ticked him off again by seeming like he's playing him. Milania,

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Speaker 1: Trump sends this letter that's like, hey, you guys, shouldn't

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Speaker 1: be kidnapping Ukrainian children.

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Speaker 3: Love that from her.

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Speaker 1: Sure, So the combo of those things made me think,

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Speaker 1: as we go into this European meeting, Okay, we're in

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Speaker 1: a decent place to have a saying back and forth

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Speaker 1: about what this might look like.

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Speaker 2: That's right. I just thought that. You know, I think

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Speaker 2: back to when Biden was president, when Obama was president.

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Speaker 2: I still wanted America to win, and I hate that

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Speaker 2: there is this sense of like Donald Trump, I hate him,

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Speaker 2: and therefore he's giving Putin everything that he wants. I

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Speaker 2: just don't see him like that at all. Look is

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Speaker 2: he susceptible to flattery. Absolutely. We've talked about it a

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Speaker 2: lot in the show. It's one of my major concerns

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Speaker 2: about him. He has somewhat got it in check this time.

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Speaker 2: Although he did love Putin talking about how mail in

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Speaker 2: voting shouldn't.

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Speaker 3: Be a thing.

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Speaker 2: He's like, you're absolutely right, mail in voting shouldn't be

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Speaker 2: a thing. And I happen to agree with that, but

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Speaker 2: I don't love that Putin was the one who kind

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Speaker 2: of got him spurred into action on this. I will

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Speaker 2: say that people who expected some sort of ceasefire to

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Speaker 2: come out of that meeting, I don't entirely understand what

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Speaker 2: they're talking about. We have a clip of Secretary of

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Speaker 2: State Rubio on Maria Bertz Romo's show talking about this issue,

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Speaker 2: and let's roll that clip because I agree with Rubio.

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Speaker 2: Why did President Trump's meeting with Putin end with no ceasefire?

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Speaker 4: And what does Putin want?

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Speaker 5: Yeah, well, a couple things.

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Speaker 6: First of all, if you recall that there's no way

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Speaker 6: you can have a meeting like that, and we never

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Speaker 6: said there was going to be a deal coming out

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Speaker 6: of the meeting because the Ukrainians are not there. This

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Speaker 6: is a war between two countries. It's not America, Ukraine

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Speaker 6: and Russia. We met with a Russian side, We've spoken

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Speaker 6: repeatedly with the Ukrainian side. We'll see them again tomorrow

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Speaker 6: in person, along with our allies in Europe. So I

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Speaker 6: do think some progress was made in that talk in

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Speaker 6: terms of narrowing down the issue set. And now these

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Speaker 6: are hard issues that remain, you know, the conversation about

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Speaker 6: where the territorial lines are going to be, Questions about

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Speaker 6: long term security guarantees and who Ukraine can have military

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Speaker 6: alliances with, things like that. These are difficult things. But

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Speaker 6: I do believe we've made progress in narrowing down the

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Speaker 6: issue set, but there's a lot of work that remains.

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Speaker 6: They're still this is a there's a reason why this

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Speaker 6: war has been going on for three and a half years.

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Speaker 6: It's a war that never would have happened had President

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Speaker 6: Trump been president, but he inherited it and now he's

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Speaker 6: trying to do everything he can to bring about peace.

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Speaker 6: He's made peace a priority of his administration. As you've

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Speaker 6: seen with all the peace deals we've been able to

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Speaker 6: achieve throughout the world, this one's the hardest one. Everyone

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Speaker 6: acknowledges that, but he's the only one in the world

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Speaker 6: that has any chance of doing it. Look, peace may

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Speaker 6: not be possible at the end of the day, we

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Speaker 6: don't know. But if it is possible, he's the only

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Speaker 6: one that can get it done. And that's why everyone's

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Speaker 6: asking him. They're asking him to meet with Putin and

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Speaker 6: they're also asking him to come here tomorrow and meet

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Speaker 6: with him to talk further about what we do next.

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Speaker 2: You can't have peace talks without both sides present, So

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Speaker 2: I think people need to dial down their expectations. I

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Speaker 2: think what Rubio said there's correct. I'm not sure this

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Speaker 2: is the hardest peace deal. I think Israel Palestinians might

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Speaker 2: be up there with this one. But I agree that

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Speaker 2: Trump is trying to produced peace deals wherever he can.

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Speaker 2: I like that America is back as a leader on

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Speaker 2: the world stage where people do look to us for

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing, including the aforementioned Euros, who, for

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Speaker 2: all their the dislike of Trump, for all of their

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Speaker 2: talking down about America, when things get real, they look

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Speaker 2: at us like, hey, guys, what are we going to

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Speaker 2: do because we're kind of the last line on that. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think, Look, he's had some successes there were India

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Speaker 1: Pakistan skirmishes that the US got involved with, and then

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Speaker 1: there were no skirmishes, Democratic Republic of Congo peace talks,

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Speaker 1: the Azerbaijani Armenian So he's had actual wins is here,

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Speaker 1: and I think he hopes to have a success here

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Speaker 1: as well. It's also worth noting that unlike a democratic president,

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Speaker 1: he has a clear red line that he will observe,

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Speaker 1: as illustrated by the Iranian strike on the nuclear sites, right,

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Speaker 1: this is or the strike on Iranian nuclear sites. When

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Speaker 1: someone has a red line like that, it makes them

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Speaker 1: more credible for having these discussions. So that makes me

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Speaker 1: more comfortable. And I'm a shot of people are stuck

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Speaker 1: in like twenty seventeen and their idea that Trump is

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Speaker 1: a Russian asset and has been fiction from the beginning, right,

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Speaker 1: that he is therefore so easy on Putin. No, he's

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Speaker 1: always been rhetorically squishy on Russia and on Putin in

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Speaker 1: a way I don't like, but not materially exactly, with

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Speaker 1: sanctions and other actions, has actually been quite good. And

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Speaker 1: I think you've got to get out of that mindset

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Speaker 1: and a traditional sort of foreign policy mindset when you're

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Speaker 1: talking about Trump because people are like always elevating him,

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Speaker 1: always doing this.

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Speaker 3: All these things are terrible.

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Speaker 1: Trump is so unpredictable and like someone people think does

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Speaker 1: have a red line that he can produce different results.

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Speaker 1: And honestly, we've been dealing with Russia or North Korea

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Speaker 1: or all these intractable actors in such a way for

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Speaker 1: so long. I am open, as I was with North Korea,

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Speaker 1: to trying something.

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Speaker 3: I don't know what to pass.

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Speaker 2: Yep, something new needs to be tried again. I say

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Speaker 2: this as somebody who's just anti the country of Russia,

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Speaker 2: even though I have family there. I'm not again to Russians.

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Speaker 2: I'm anti the country of Russia. And still I want

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Speaker 2: to see a resolution here. I want to see a

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Speaker 2: piece deal. I want to see an end to just

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Speaker 2: the meat grinder on both sides, the endless death. You know,

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Speaker 2: we want to see it over. And that's where Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is coming from too, and.

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Speaker 4: We shall have more news on that in the future.

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Speaker 3: We will be back on normally in just a.

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Speaker 2: Second, Welcome back to normally, where we could easily have

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Speaker 2: a segment called what is going on with the Left,

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Speaker 2: because they are in such a funky place right now.

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Speaker 2: I've not seen this kind of disarray on the left.

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Speaker 2: I would say maybe in my lifetime. It's like every

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Speaker 2: time anything happened on the left, they still were this

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Speaker 2: cohesive unit in my opinion, maybe because I always saw

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Speaker 2: Republicans and the right as just spread out in so

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Speaker 2: many different factions, and there's always some kind of like

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Speaker 2: underlying thing. It's never just you're a conservative, you're a

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Speaker 2: tea party conservative, or you're you know, a nationalist conservative,

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Speaker 2: you're America First, or you're a mego or whatever. There's

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Speaker 2: always like factions, Whereas the left I always saw is

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Speaker 2: kind of get fall into line and do as you're told.

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Speaker 2: You know. Hillary Clinton, it was never confirmed that she

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Speaker 2: said this, but she said about John Kerry in two

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Speaker 2: thousand and four, you don't have to fall in love,

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Speaker 2: you just have to fall in line. And that's how

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Speaker 2: I've always viewed them. But right now it is a

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Speaker 2: time of just disarray on the left. I love to

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Speaker 2: see it personally, but it's also like fun to watch

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Speaker 2: because there's a lot of like funny, funny stuff going on. Like,

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Speaker 2: for example, ex FBI director made a video about how

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Speaker 2: much he loves Taylor Swift.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, James Comey took to the selfie video style to deliver.

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Speaker 2: One behind like you know, like not moving next to

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Speaker 2: a wall, like odd.

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Speaker 3: And clearly scripted. Right, Yeah, it looked like a prompter.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, at least do it like crying in your car.

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Speaker 7: Man.

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Speaker 1: So here he is in front of a blank wall

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Speaker 1: giving a scripted selfie video that is about Taylor Swift

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Speaker 1: as a model.

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Speaker 3: For how to respond to Trump.

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Speaker 1: And we have a minute of it just so you

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Speaker 1: can hear this and understand this man led federal law enforcement.

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Speaker 3: Just go ahead.

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Speaker 5: Of course, we need to stand up to jerks and

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Speaker 5: defend what matters, but I think we have to try

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Speaker 5: to do that without becoming like them, which is what

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Speaker 5: makes me think about Taylor Swift. She's made clear that

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Speaker 5: she sees Donald Trump for what he is, and last

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Speaker 5: year she urged Americans not to make the serious mistake

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Speaker 5: of electing him. Of course, we're now living with the

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Speaker 5: consequences of that mistake. But while our elderly, makeup covered

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Speaker 5: president is posting about whether Taylor Swift is still hot

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Speaker 5: and declaring that he can't stand her, what's she doing

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Speaker 5: living her best life producing great music, and as she

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Speaker 5: urged all of us to do, during the podcast, not

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Speaker 5: giving the jerks power over her mind, she said something

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Speaker 5: about dealing with Internet trolls that stuck with me. Think

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Speaker 5: of your energy as if it's expensive, she said, as

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Speaker 5: if it's like a luxury item. Not everyone can afford it.

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Speaker 2: All that goes on for five minutes. It was so weird.

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Speaker 2: We debated whether we should play the full five minutes

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Speaker 2: because you kind of need to hear it to understand

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Speaker 2: how loopy it is to the whole thing. But basically

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Speaker 2: he kept coming back to like Taylor Swift said, and

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift and look, I love Taylor Swift. I have

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Speaker 2: no problem with call me being a swiftye. I have

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Speaker 2: a problem with him being a weirdo. And I think

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Speaker 2: even those who hope to like a Republicans are so goofy,

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Speaker 2: you know, picking up on this or whatever. The Daily

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Speaker 2: Beast headline was Mega melts down over James Comey's creepy

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Speaker 2: Taylor Swift video because it was creepy and it was weird,

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Speaker 2: and he talks about bullying, he talks about being a troll.

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Speaker 2: I see him as that. He recently said he was

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Speaker 2: walking on a beach and came across this shell formation

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Speaker 2: that had eighty six forty seven, which means end forty seven.

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Speaker 2: It's a scene sort of as a death threat to

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Speaker 2: President Trump. How is that not being a bully? How

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Speaker 2: is that not being a troll? I just the whole

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Speaker 2: idea of him is wild to me because he had

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Speaker 2: such an important job and he's clearly clearly not cut

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Speaker 2: out for that.

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Speaker 1: Right Like he has an impulse control problem. He responds

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Speaker 1: too much to online adulation and online responses and attention.

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Speaker 1: It makes me uncomfortable that he was the head of

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Speaker 1: the FBI.

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Speaker 4: I think someone missed something major.

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Speaker 1: Red flags about this guy as he was coming through

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Speaker 1: the ranks. And the left rightly can point out like

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Speaker 1: Donald Trump's a big weirdo who responds to attention as well.

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Speaker 3: Yes, a duly elected one.

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Speaker 1: Yes, it's true. But one of the reasons that people

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Speaker 1: vote for Trump, as you and I have noted, is

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Speaker 1: that he ends up looking like the more normal yes

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Speaker 1: option when you've got doing five minutes on this message.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, I do I actually agree with

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Speaker 1: the message. She's right about your attention and trolls. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: Taylor's wisdom is correct. It's just he is.

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Speaker 4: A real odd ball and not in an endearing way.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. I just I kept waiting for him to start,

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Speaker 2: like putting on his makeup or showing us the outfit of.

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Speaker 3: The day, because you're ready with me.

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Speaker 2: So odd. It was so odd. Meanwhile, the New York

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Speaker 2: Times is also having a normal one wondering why the

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Speaker 2: military hasn't stopped Trump.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so the headline is we used to think the

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Speaker 1: military would stand up to Trump.

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Speaker 3: We were wrong.

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Speaker 1: And it starts with by ordering eight hundred National Guard

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Speaker 1: troops to Washington on the pretext of an illusory crime wave,

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Speaker 1: President Trump has further dragged the US military into domestic

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Speaker 1: law enforcement in a move credibly perceived as an ominous

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Speaker 1: test case. This continues what the administration started in California

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Speaker 1: in June as part of its deportation efforts. Unfortunately, though

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Speaker 1: we and others had hoped the military would only respond

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Speaker 1: to calls to action in American cities and states kicking

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Speaker 1: and screaming, we no longer expect resistance from that institution.

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Speaker 1: Once perhaps traditionalist officers might have leaned on protocol and

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Speaker 1: refused to heed a lawless order, taking inspiration from the

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Speaker 1: generals Mark Milly and James Mattis, who resisted the uprooting

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Speaker 1: of established military standards in the first Trump term. But

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Speaker 1: today general officers no longer seem to see themselves as

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Speaker 1: guardians of the constitutional order.

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Speaker 4: This is the constitutional right.

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Speaker 2: My fifteen year old saw the headline, we usually think

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Speaker 2: the military you would stand up to Trump. We were

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Speaker 2: wrong over my shoulder and she's like, why did you

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Speaker 2: think that? Have you heard of the military? Do you

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Speaker 2: know about chain of command. She's not a particularly political person,

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Speaker 2: She's just like, why would you imagine the military would

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Speaker 2: not take quorterers from the commander in chief. This piece

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Speaker 2: was written by Stephen Simon and Jonathan Stephenson. Mister Simon

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Speaker 2: held senior positions in the State Department out of the

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Speaker 2: National Security Council, and mister Stevenson served on the National

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Speaker 2: Security Council staff during the Obama administration. This does nothing

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Speaker 2: to dispel the idea that there is a deep state

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Speaker 2: operating that thinks that unelected bureaucrats should do what they want,

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Speaker 2: and the president of the United States was elected by

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Speaker 2: the American people, should not. I don't know how The

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Speaker 2: New York Times doesn't see that. It's a problem to

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Speaker 2: put this opinion out into the world that this is

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Speaker 2: a crazy, crazy thing to say.

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Speaker 1: Well that your position is that to preserve democracy and

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Speaker 1: all the norms, we should have a military coup wherein

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Speaker 1: the military does not obey the chain of command that

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Speaker 1: includes the duly elected president of the United States of America. Now, look,

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Speaker 1: that's a take, that's a big one. Fine, that's your take.

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Speaker 1: I disagree with that. Please don't come at me with

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Speaker 1: I'm the one who wants to preserve democracy, because I

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Speaker 1: do not believe you are anyway.

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Speaker 4: And this is what the left always does is they

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Speaker 4: use Trump.

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Speaker 3: To justify the things that they kind of wanted to do.

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Speaker 3: Anyway to the constitution.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, certainly, the far left ones are just like, this

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Speaker 1: constitution is lame. The government should operate in much more

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Speaker 1: lefty ways. Let's just allow it to do that by

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Speaker 1: any means necessary. And this is a confession of that.

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Speaker 1: And by the way, specifically with DC, he absolutely has the.

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Speaker 3: Power to call the National Guard.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, easy, because it is a federal district and it

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Speaker 1: is operating differently than states that have governors.

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Speaker 3: I happy to argue with you.

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Speaker 4: About whether it's needed, whether it's working, all those things,

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Speaker 4: but he absolutely has the power to do it.

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Speaker 1: It is not authoritarianism to call them in on its

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Speaker 1: face to talk.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so, speaking of the New York Times not thinking

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Speaker 2: the Constitution is very important, ross do that The Conservative

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Speaker 2: about The New York Times interviewed author Osita non Nivu

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Speaker 2: about his new book, quote, The Right of the People,

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Speaker 2: Democracy and the Case for a New American Founding. The

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Speaker 2: title of that exchange on the New York Times page

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Speaker 2: was abolish the Senate and then electoral college, pack the court.

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Speaker 2: Why the left can't win without a new constitution. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you can't just admit it out loud like that. Guys, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: leave something to the imagination. While the left can't win

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Speaker 2: without a new constitution. You can't win according to the

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Speaker 2: rules of the game as established, So you need something new.

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Speaker 2: I don't think the American people are going to be

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Speaker 2: into that.

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Speaker 1: No, And I just like when I read that headline,

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Speaker 1: I was like, this is why I can never side

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Speaker 1: with y'all.

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Speaker 3: Right.

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Speaker 1: I like the Constitution, Yeah, I like its limitations, and

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Speaker 1: the gaslighting part of it heaps on my already large

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Speaker 1: annoyance with this where it's like we're the saviors of

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Speaker 1: democracy and the way that we're saving democracy is to

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Speaker 1: ignore all the rules because we decided that we don't

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Speaker 1: like this person, and therefore wet project all this rule

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Speaker 1: breaking on him as he goes through the courts, as

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Speaker 1: he exerts power over DC in a way that is

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Speaker 1: constitutionally totally allowed, and then that gives us leave to

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Speaker 1: do what we want. Beto o'rourk, you remember him, the

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Speaker 1: failed failed candidate many times over in Texas. Who are

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Speaker 1: we are always told is a rising star who's going

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Speaker 1: to really the country by storm. He had something to

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Speaker 1: say about that in light of the Texas redistricting battle

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Speaker 1: that we've been talking about, which California is now going

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Speaker 1: to retaliate or Newsom is attempting to. Here's Beta Araark's

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Speaker 1: take on following the rules and saving democracy in every other.

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Speaker 7: State where the Democrats hold the governor's mansion, the Assembly,

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Speaker 7: and the state Senate to redraw their congressional districts, now

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Speaker 7: not wait for Texas to move first to maximize Democratic

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Speaker 7: party advantage. Listen, you may say to yourself, well.

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Speaker 4: Those aren't the rules.

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Speaker 7: There are no reps in this game. Fuck the rules.

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Speaker 7: We are gonna win whatever it takes. We're gonna take

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Speaker 7: this to them in every way.

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Speaker 2: That we can.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I love the text line under that his chiron

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Speaker 1: is such and such to stop Trump's power grap.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean. The joke, of course, also is that

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Speaker 2: all of the Democratic states have already redistricted themselves into

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Speaker 2: like oblivion where there are no Republican congressional districts, or

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Speaker 2: there are very very few. There was actually a New

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Speaker 2: York Times story two days ago in a wider redistricting war.

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Speaker 2: Republicans have an advantage, yeah, because the Blue states have

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Speaker 2: already done this to such an extent that they can't

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Speaker 2: do it anymore. They've done the max. They've already drawn

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Speaker 2: all the little squiggly lines around their states and made

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Speaker 2: it as democrat as possible. So if the Battos of

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Speaker 2: the world want to do this, Republicans have to be like, sure,

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Speaker 2: let's do it.

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Speaker 7: Right.

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Speaker 1: They always ignore their own escalations, right, they have to

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Speaker 1: just wipe that out. So the Smithsonian fight is another

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Speaker 1: good one, right where Trump says We're going to review

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Speaker 1: Smithsonian exhibits inside the Smithsonian in all of these wonderful

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Speaker 1: free museums, and the left is like, oh my gosh,

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Speaker 1: can you believe this. He is politicizing history. He's going

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Speaker 1: to remove anything he doesn't like. Now, I am wary

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Speaker 1: about any government, any partisan entity doing this work and

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Speaker 1: removing things they don't like.

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Speaker 2: Mm hmm.

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Speaker 1: What they're ignoring is that the left took over all

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Speaker 1: the Smithsonians' exhibits and has turned them into social justice

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Speaker 1: lectures on every front, and they just want us to

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Speaker 1: leave that untouched, their cultural victory and we must observe

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Speaker 1: it with perfect obeisance at this.

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Speaker 2: Point, Yeah, I don't think we should do that. So

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Speaker 2: I think that the left needs to be taught a

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Speaker 2: lesson about what they've done over the last few years.

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Speaker 2: I think it's way past the time for them to

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Speaker 2: understand that they can't go on the way that they've

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Speaker 2: been going. And you can't listen to Beto again. Try it,

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Speaker 2: but you will find that you've already done all the

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Speaker 2: things that he suggests you do without following any rules.

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Speaker 2: Last note on this, MSNBC has changed their name and

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Speaker 2: it is weird. It is really weird they're going with

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Speaker 2: ms now. That sounds i'm sorry, like a multiple sclerosis

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Speaker 2: maybe group or something like that. I saw somebody point

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Speaker 2: out that it sounds maybe like Miss magazine and the

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Speaker 2: National Organization Women Sounds.

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Speaker 1: I said, it sounds like a new, fast acting version

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Speaker 1: of MIT al brings up like weird associations.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why.

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Speaker 1: It's like HBO Max when they locked off HBO. But

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Speaker 1: it's not the thing we know. Don't go with that one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just weird. And I don't know what they're

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Speaker 2: trying to be. I don't think that they're trying to

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Speaker 2: appeal to a wider audience. I think they're trying to

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Speaker 2: lock down their left audience. I'm not sure why they

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Speaker 2: would change the name to make that happen. It's an

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Speaker 2: awful rebrand, awful logo.

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Speaker 1: One last thing on Dems acting odd. Have you seen

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Speaker 1: the Newsome office tweets? Oh my god, So Gavin Newsom's

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Speaker 1: press office has taken on a satirical version of Trump

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Speaker 1: like posting. It's getting a lot of attention, So for

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Speaker 1: that part it has been effective. They tweet in all caps,

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Speaker 1: they use Trumpian like exaggerations and phrases.

440
00:22:55,840 --> 00:22:56,320
Speaker 3: I don't know.

441
00:22:57,359 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: It is amusing at times. I think it's already wearing

442
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,560
Speaker 1: a little thin. Yeah, and I keep getting these weird

443
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:07,320
Speaker 1: all caps and AI constructions in my for you column

444
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 1: on X right.

445
00:23:08,640 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 3: And the thing about.

446
00:23:11,600 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 4: What Trump does is that even as a joke, yeah,

447
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,120
Speaker 4: and he's half joke himself, like his postings sometimes are

448
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 4: just goofs, it only works for him.

449
00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 2: It's because it's real, because it actually is him. He's

450
00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:28,359
Speaker 2: not imitating somebody, he's not trying to be somebody else.

451
00:23:28,880 --> 00:23:31,600
Speaker 2: You don't have to like it, but it's him for real.

452
00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: And the fact that Gavin Newsom doesn't have a hymn

453
00:23:34,800 --> 00:23:38,680
Speaker 2: for real personality is a problem.

454
00:23:38,359 --> 00:23:40,440
Speaker 3: For a personality transplant.

455
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:42,719
Speaker 1: They're like, well, let's just plug something in here, I

456
00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 1: see how it goes. Anyway, you can look for those

457
00:23:45,640 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: all caps postings if you wish to.

458
00:23:48,760 --> 00:23:50,199
Speaker 2: Up to you if you need to.

459
00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, we will be right back normally with a new

460
00:23:54,000 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: trend in designer babies.

461
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 2: Welcome back to normally where we don't think that you

462
00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 2: should be designing your perfect baby. But we seem to

463
00:24:07,400 --> 00:24:10,640
Speaker 2: be in the ever growing minority on this. I am

464
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 2: not sure exactly why so many people have decided that

465
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,159
Speaker 2: you must make a perfect child, you must make a

466
00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 2: baby that has no issues whatsoever, or no potential issues whatsoever.

467
00:24:25,840 --> 00:24:29,280
Speaker 2: This all started with a piece in the Times, The

468
00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,719
Speaker 2: next parenting trend starts before conception for as little as

469
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,159
Speaker 2: twenty five hundred. You can choose your future baby, should you.

470
00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,679
Speaker 2: And it's about this company called Orchid where they do

471
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:45,520
Speaker 2: embryo screening and the world's first whole genome embryo screen

472
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:52,360
Speaker 2: And the woman who runs the organization, nor Sidiki, tweets

473
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:54,639
Speaker 2: what if your baby never walks? What if they're neighbor

474
00:24:54,760 --> 00:24:57,679
Speaker 2: never able to live independently? But if you could have

475
00:24:57,680 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 2: stopped it but chose not to, That's the question. Or

476
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: kid incs. Embryo screening forces you optimize everything career, diet, skincare,

477
00:25:06,400 --> 00:25:08,600
Speaker 2: but you're going to chance it on your child's genome,

478
00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,480
Speaker 2: one of the most significant determinants of their health. First

479
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,600
Speaker 2: of all, I don't optimize everything. Let's be real here.

480
00:25:14,960 --> 00:25:17,960
Speaker 2: You know, I just had French toast for breakfast. I

481
00:25:18,000 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: did not feel like I was optimizing my diet, nor

482
00:25:22,320 --> 00:25:25,800
Speaker 2: my career, nor my skincare. It could all be much improved.

483
00:25:26,440 --> 00:25:30,919
Speaker 2: I'll say that, you know, because I'm Ashkenazi Jewish, I

484
00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 2: carry a bunch of different stuff. And with every child

485
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 2: I had, more tests became available, and when we had

486
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,919
Speaker 2: our third kid, the test came up as basically like,

487
00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:46,960
Speaker 2: your child may be blind because you carry a blindness gene.

488
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,120
Speaker 2: And I thought about it because, you know, I obviously

489
00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: I was never going to abort, but you know, had

490
00:25:53,040 --> 00:25:55,440
Speaker 2: I not already had two kids, I think this would

491
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:58,359
Speaker 2: have scared, you know, the crap out of me, because

492
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 2: I already had two kids and they were fine. And

493
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:02,719
Speaker 2: I was like, I don't even know, like what this

494
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,720
Speaker 2: is anymore. I don't know why you're telling me this.

495
00:26:04,800 --> 00:26:08,000
Speaker 2: I have two healthy children. The fact that I carry

496
00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: this gene does not actually mean that they're going to

497
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:13,840
Speaker 2: be blind. So you're giving me incorrect information. And I

498
00:26:13,920 --> 00:26:17,640
Speaker 2: wonder how many kids are aborted because of information like that.

499
00:26:18,280 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 1: And the New York Times has actually covered this admirably,

500
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:28,640
Speaker 1: the epidemic of false positives for really catastrophic health issues.

501
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:31,280
Speaker 3: That people get in utero, and that is what happens.

502
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:33,920
Speaker 1: And then they did a little deeper dive on exactly

503
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,920
Speaker 1: how reliable these tests are and it's not great. Yeah,

504
00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:39,280
Speaker 1: So I wonder what we're setting ourselves up for here.

505
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:40,640
Speaker 3: I want to talk about.

506
00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 1: Nor Sidiki as possibly the worst spokesperson, Oh yeah, for anything. Ever,

507
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 1: this is a thing that, as you point out. People

508
00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:53,480
Speaker 1: have real concerns. I don't want to diminish those concerns.

509
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: I feel very blessed to have four healthy children. You

510
00:26:57,160 --> 00:26:58,639
Speaker 1: never know what life's going to throw at you. You

511
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 1: really don't understand the desire to sort of control that

512
00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 1: and see what you can do to optimize it.

513
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 3: I hate the.

514
00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: Idea of it as a skincare regimen. Right. My children

515
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:15,360
Speaker 1: aren't skincare regimen. They're a miracle created by their parents.

516
00:27:16,640 --> 00:27:23,000
Speaker 1: But she is sort of a classic left leaning figure

517
00:27:23,520 --> 00:27:27,639
Speaker 1: in that there is a clear moral issue here that

518
00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 1: we should talk about. And by the way, we called,

519
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 1: you know, Sidney Sweeney a eugenicist, but this is.

520
00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:34,920
Speaker 3: Fine, We're celebrating this.

521
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: She doesn't recognize the moral dilemma at all, and is

522
00:27:39,840 --> 00:27:44,800
Speaker 1: in fact horribly dismissive and nasty to anyone who has

523
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: an issue with it. So the first one I noticed,

524
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:49,199
Speaker 1: first tweet I noticed from her says, most kids are

525
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: born by accident, and yet we stigmatize parents who plan ahead,

526
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: who screen and embryos to prevent deadly, now preventable diseases.

527
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,000
Speaker 1: If you wouldn't screen, fine, just beyond it. You're okay

528
00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:04,840
Speaker 1: with your kid potentially suffering for life, so you can

529
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: feel morally superior. Oh okay, calm down, nor no, your

530
00:28:11,400 --> 00:28:15,480
Speaker 1: kid potentially suffering. You're we're protective of our children, like

531
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,000
Speaker 1: our children who exist.

532
00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 4: You're not eliminating disease. You're eliminating a person person with disease.

533
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,720
Speaker 3: That's what you're doing. So then someone asks her honest question,

534
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:27,240
Speaker 3: would you.

535
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:31,199
Speaker 1: Have destroyed our son with severe hypertrophic cardiomiopathy before he

536
00:28:31,280 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 1: was born? She says, or kid doesn't decide which embryo's

537
00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 1: parents transfer the parents to. It's their call, their future,

538
00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,760
Speaker 1: their call. Or's their family, their future, their call. What's

539
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: actually insane is outsiders trying to deny families the right

540
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,320
Speaker 1: to know and choose for themselves. You don't get to

541
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: hijack that decision and impose your morality on someone else's family.

542
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,479
Speaker 1: Her first tweet about the you being morally superior suggests

543
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:57,160
Speaker 1: she would gladly impose her morality on you, and is

544
00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 1: doing so currently. Then she says it genuinely surprises her

545
00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:04,800
Speaker 1: that people don't support parents making the choice to gather

546
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: more information or not and then decide what to do

547
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: with that information. I hate this thing where people are

548
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:13,520
Speaker 1: like I'm just gonna slam people who disagree with me

549
00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 1: and be mystified that anyone would disagree, right.

550
00:29:16,960 --> 00:29:19,640
Speaker 2: Right, Because she also in that same tweet you read,

551
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:23,080
Speaker 2: the last two lines were or because you know, you

552
00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:25,840
Speaker 2: just be honest, you're okay with your kid potentially suffering

553
00:29:25,840 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: for life so you could feel morely superior. And then

554
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 2: the last line is because you can't be inconvenienced for

555
00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:33,440
Speaker 2: two weeks to extract eggs and check for genetic issues

556
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:38,440
Speaker 2: before they develop. Dude, I mean that's not how I

557
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,520
Speaker 2: want to have a baby.

558
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:41,440
Speaker 4: She's unhinged.

559
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 1: Ross Stalta is interviewing her in another New York Times

560
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:49,440
Speaker 1: podcast and he asks her about basically, like, if you

561
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,200
Speaker 1: want to remove the idea of procreation from the world

562
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:56,120
Speaker 1: as a physical act between two people who create a baby,

563
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: isn't there something we lose in that exchange?

564
00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:59,280
Speaker 3: Something human?

565
00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: And he reads it like a little segment of a poem,

566
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: and he's quite emotional about it, and she.

567
00:30:04,320 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 4: Just goes, what do you mean.

568
00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 3: It's like, I it is.

569
00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: It is an intellectual failing to take on something with

570
00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,720
Speaker 1: all of these moral implications and not have considered any

571
00:30:19,800 --> 00:30:20,120
Speaker 1: of them.

572
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's wild that there's so much defense of this, like,

573
00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 2: of course you'd want to have a perfect child. Well, yeah,

574
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: having children, I you know, I had a I would

575
00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 2: say my obstetrician was a fairly leftist woman living in

576
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:39,280
Speaker 2: New York City. But one thing that she said to

577
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:41,920
Speaker 2: me at one point was having a baby is more

578
00:30:42,200 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 2: art than science. And that's always how I've seen it.

579
00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: It's not supposed to be perfect. You're not supposed to

580
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:52,960
Speaker 2: design your your perfect little you know, specimen. It's an

581
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: art project more than anything else, and it's something that

582
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,080
Speaker 2: you have to take the good and the bad. And

583
00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 2: even if you do design the perfect genome and the

584
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: perfect healthy baby, you don't know what's going to happen.

585
00:31:06,240 --> 00:31:08,200
Speaker 2: You don't know what life is going to bring. Are

586
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: you throwing this kid out if something goes wrong, if

587
00:31:10,200 --> 00:31:13,200
Speaker 2: they get into an accident, something happens to them. Of

588
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:17,479
Speaker 2: course not. So I really think that this creation of

589
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:21,960
Speaker 2: the perfect is it's weird and it's not something that

590
00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:22,959
Speaker 2: we should get involved in.

591
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this sales pitch in particular is pretty repulsive.

592
00:31:28,480 --> 00:31:31,040
Speaker 1: Basically every turn they should maybe think about hiring someone

593
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: else to speak in public about.

594
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:33,160
Speaker 2: The body else.

595
00:31:33,560 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, by the way, I remember back in the days

596
00:31:35,640 --> 00:31:37,520
Speaker 1: of when we were talking about stem cell research and

597
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: all of that was.

598
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,440
Speaker 4: A big deal that I believe George W.

599
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:45,000
Speaker 1: Bush had sort of a bioethicist panel or people who

600
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: actually sat around and thought about this, And I.

601
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 3: Feel like we need to be doing more of that.

602
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ship is.

603
00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:52,840
Speaker 1: The ship is sailing on a couple things quite quickly,

604
00:31:53,480 --> 00:31:56,280
Speaker 1: so quickly we need a little more discussion about and

605
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: this is one of them.

606
00:31:57,480 --> 00:32:01,840
Speaker 2: Absolutely well, thanks for joining us. Normally Normally airs Tuesdays

607
00:32:01,840 --> 00:32:05,520
Speaker 2: and Thursdays, and you can subscribe anywhere you get your podcasts.

608
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:09,200
Speaker 2: Get in touch with us at normallythepodat gmail dot com.

609
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,240
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and when things get weird, act normally