1 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:28,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to the show Ridiculous Historians. Quick question for you, 2 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: what's the most amazing animal that you have seen up 3 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:34,839 Speaker 1: close in real life? Hi, my name is Ben, my 4 00:00:34,920 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 1: name is no. I would say ostrich if by amazing 5 00:00:38,120 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: you mean terrifying, right, because your bird thing bird thing 6 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: ostros in particularly, I got those gangly, weird necks and 7 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: those really musculous talents and the whole shape of the 8 00:00:48,120 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: bird is just wronged me. Do you know, for a 9 00:00:51,159 --> 00:00:56,760 Speaker 1: relatively or comparatively brief span of Earth's history, flightless birds 10 00:00:56,920 --> 00:01:00,080 Speaker 1: large flightless birds with a dominant species totally I mean, 11 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:03,480 Speaker 1: aren't like Jurassic Park dinosaurs meant to have had feathers. Yes, 12 00:01:03,600 --> 00:01:06,200 Speaker 1: that is true, that's true. Skilberg did not back down. 13 00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 1: Another person who does not back down is our super producer, 14 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:14,160 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram. Yeah, that Tom Petty song is about him, 15 00:01:14,200 --> 00:01:17,399 Speaker 1: it is. It is a lot of Tom Petty's catalog 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,119 Speaker 1: is actually based on the life and times of Casey Pegram. Yeah, 17 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,840 Speaker 1: which didn't seem to work out age wise and timeline wise, 18 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:26,199 Speaker 1: but trust us it does. Trust us. Yeah, the whole 19 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: thing is a concept album. I would say the most 20 00:01:29,520 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 1: amazing animal that I have seen up close for entirely 21 00:01:33,240 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: subjective reasons, would be a tiger. Uh. The most amazing 22 00:01:36,920 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: animal I've seen up close in the wild was a 23 00:01:42,160 --> 00:01:45,760 Speaker 1: brown bear. Did I tell you that story? For ma? 24 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 1: I was not. I did survive. At the end, I 25 00:01:48,840 --> 00:01:52,120 Speaker 1: was in boy Scouts and we were on a camping trip. 26 00:01:52,640 --> 00:01:57,040 Speaker 1: I had walked away from the campsite. And let me 27 00:01:57,080 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: put this delicately, I was I was peeing in creek, 28 00:02:00,680 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: which you know, I probably shouldn't have been doing. And 29 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: then mid stream is the best way to put it. 30 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,360 Speaker 1: I looked across the creek and I saw a bear 31 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 1: on the other side of the creek, just chilling and 32 00:02:12,760 --> 00:02:16,200 Speaker 1: staring at me while it was mid stream, and I 33 00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: didn't know what to do, so I just kept going 34 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,720 Speaker 1: and then I backed away. I walked backwards back to 35 00:02:23,800 --> 00:02:27,800 Speaker 1: the campsite, and uh, the bear just stared at me. 36 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,840 Speaker 1: What you're describing, Ben, is the natural adaptation that was 37 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:35,040 Speaker 1: the inspiration for the care Bear stairs with the care 38 00:02:35,080 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 1: Bear stair. Yeah, as long as it wasn't the inspiration 39 00:02:38,720 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: for that Leonardo DiCaprio vehicle. What was that where he 40 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:44,359 Speaker 1: was he in a live action care Bears movie? No, 41 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 1: he was in a movie with a bear. Oh, the 42 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: one where he eats there he eats raw meat and 43 00:02:50,360 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 1: curls up in an animal carcass and I think they 44 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: gave him the oscar for it. Yeah, Casey, do you 45 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: remember which one that was? The Revenant? That was it? 46 00:02:56,680 --> 00:03:03,680 Speaker 1: Casey on the case. Today's episode is about several things. 47 00:03:03,720 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 1: It is about an amazing animal that very few of 48 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:10,440 Speaker 1: us get a chance to see in the wild nowadays. Uh, 49 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 1: And it's about the way fame can affect people. And 50 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:18,560 Speaker 1: this is a very special episode today because we are 51 00:03:18,720 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 1: not entering into this foray alone. Well we're entering into 52 00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,359 Speaker 1: it alone, but we're gonna exit it with company. Yes 53 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: that's correct. Yes we do have a surprise guest at 54 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:34,120 Speaker 1: the end. But our first guest, at least in concept, 55 00:03:34,200 --> 00:03:38,680 Speaker 1: here in spirit, there we Go, is actually not a person. 56 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:44,480 Speaker 1: Our first guest is a rhinoceros, not to be confused 57 00:03:44,520 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 1: with the very depressing Smashing Pumpkins song of the same 58 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: name and actually, in retrospect, highly pretentious. I was so 59 00:03:52,520 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: in love with that stuff, and I like some of 60 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 1: it holds up, but that song, he's like, he's like 61 00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:01,960 Speaker 1: planned a show trees and alloons. What does that even mean? 62 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,240 Speaker 1: Billy Corgan, you know, I scream. Yeah, I lumped them 63 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,560 Speaker 1: in with a lot of bands from that time period. 64 00:04:09,680 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: Who if you don't pay attention to the lyrics. I've 65 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,640 Speaker 1: said this before, if I've had those moments with Stone 66 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:17,520 Speaker 1: Temple Pilots as well, where I think, you know, if 67 00:04:17,600 --> 00:04:20,479 Speaker 1: I didn't understand English, I would love this song. But 68 00:04:20,560 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 1: that stuff like, um, the fashion victims nash their charcoal teeth. 69 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: Oh that that's that's zero melancholic. My beef with the 70 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:32,680 Speaker 1: song Rhinoceros. Not one mention of a rhinoceros in the 71 00:04:32,760 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 1: entire so I guess it's maybe just the feeling of 72 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:38,160 Speaker 1: a rhinoceros. It has sort of a rhinoceros like melancholy 73 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:40,480 Speaker 1: to it um, which you know that interesting into the 74 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:43,920 Speaker 1: story only it's interesting, Um, we'll get we'll get to it. 75 00:04:43,920 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 1: Does It does matter though, because for quite a long 76 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: time rhinoceros was considered to be somewhat of a mythical creature. 77 00:04:54,360 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: There was a very famous etching by Albrecht Durer that 78 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: depicted a rhinoceros b based on description alone um in 79 00:05:02,240 --> 00:05:06,279 Speaker 1: a really cool way. Yeah yeah, fifteen fifteen would cut 80 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,640 Speaker 1: and it shows a rhinoceros in profile, and it looks 81 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: like it's dressed for war, like it it came to 82 00:05:13,360 --> 00:05:15,520 Speaker 1: kick button, chew bubble gum and it's all out of gum. 83 00:05:15,600 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 1: Looks like one of those ones from at least like 84 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:20,320 Speaker 1: one of those ones from the Black Panther that the 85 00:05:20,480 --> 00:05:22,960 Speaker 1: there's that tribe and that the that comes into play 86 00:05:23,200 --> 00:05:26,039 Speaker 1: um pretty heavily in the big battle structure of the film. 87 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:29,840 Speaker 1: They ride these rhinoceros like creatures that aren't quite the rhinoceros. 88 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,320 Speaker 1: Is that we know they're a little bit of an 89 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,080 Speaker 1: augmented rhinoceros, which is this this etching is very much 90 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: the case. It has an extra horn on its back, 91 00:05:37,800 --> 00:05:41,400 Speaker 1: which makes it look even more fierce. But overall, pretty 92 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:44,039 Speaker 1: damn good depiction of a rhino based on just word 93 00:05:44,080 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: of mouth, right yeah, especially considering how woefully inaccurate many 94 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,920 Speaker 1: depictions of this type were at the time. Now, at 95 00:05:52,960 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 1: this time in the fifteen hundreds, many many people in 96 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,240 Speaker 1: Europe would place creature like the rhinoceros up there with 97 00:06:00,279 --> 00:06:04,520 Speaker 1: a creature like the griffin, the hippogriffins, the unicorns. You know, 98 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,200 Speaker 1: it's a cool idea, but someone was a bit in 99 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,800 Speaker 1: their cups or as are different. Ben Franklin may have 100 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:14,159 Speaker 1: put it they had been to speak with the King. 101 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,160 Speaker 1: The King, yeah, and Ben, I well, well, the last thing. 102 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:20,800 Speaker 1: Um this, this Albert Jure etching really reminds me of 103 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:24,160 Speaker 1: battle Cat from He Man because it's a very large, 104 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:27,919 Speaker 1: muscular creature decked out in some very bespoke like armor 105 00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,039 Speaker 1: and kind of a helmet that goes over the rhino head. 106 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: I remember that you're a battle Cat. Yeah, he was. 107 00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:37,440 Speaker 1: He was Cringer and then turned into battle Cat. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, 108 00:06:37,480 --> 00:06:40,880 Speaker 1: because he had to transform with he Man in one 109 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:44,160 Speaker 1: of the most creative names for a new superhero. I've 110 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,719 Speaker 1: never heard of the band Man Man. Yes, I wonder 111 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:49,000 Speaker 1: if that's sort of a jab at he Man. I 112 00:06:49,000 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: don't know. I never understood why it was she Ra 113 00:06:51,600 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: and she Woman if it was he Man. That's a 114 00:06:54,080 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: good point. No, no one knows. But I will say 115 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,680 Speaker 1: that the new sh Rack cartoon is supposed to be incredible. 116 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:00,839 Speaker 1: It's being held up there on with like shows like 117 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:04,120 Speaker 1: Stephen Universe is being very inclusive and very well written 118 00:07:04,120 --> 00:07:07,480 Speaker 1: and interesting and handling trauma quite well exactly. I really 119 00:07:07,480 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: want to check it out. Oh and speaking of checking things, out. 120 00:07:10,560 --> 00:07:15,600 Speaker 1: Durer ultimately arrives at at least part of this description 121 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,760 Speaker 1: via the courtesy of the first century Roman author Plenty 122 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:23,240 Speaker 1: the Elder, and I love his description of the rhinoceros noll. 123 00:07:23,480 --> 00:07:27,559 Speaker 1: He calls it fast, impetuous, and cunning, the mortal enemy 124 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: of the Yeah, there's some night man day man stuff 125 00:07:31,080 --> 00:07:33,480 Speaker 1: going on, big time. No, And I think even like, 126 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 1: what was what were what was he basing these observations on. 127 00:07:36,200 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: Did plant where there where there rhinoceros is in Rome? 128 00:07:39,400 --> 00:07:41,320 Speaker 1: That's a good question. What do you think? I have 129 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: a feeling it was probably more word of mouth, and 130 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,320 Speaker 1: he probably did some research based on people that were 131 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: traveling to foreign lands and then maybe interviewed them. But 132 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 1: he didn't strike me as the type that was going 133 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:53,000 Speaker 1: to go off to you know, India or Africa or 134 00:07:53,000 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 1: anything that wasn't really in the cards. Plenty also got 135 00:07:56,800 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: plenty of things wrong, you know what I mean. It's 136 00:08:00,000 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: out as if he could hop on the internet or 137 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: even visit a particularly well stocked library. So he most 138 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 1: likely Plenty that is, was getting his accounts from Greek 139 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,960 Speaker 1: and Roman forays into India, and he was describing an 140 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,400 Speaker 1: Indian rhinoceros which is the subject of our story today. Actually, 141 00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:24,720 Speaker 1: and one last thing. Plenty was a naval commander earlier 142 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:26,880 Speaker 1: in his life before he became like you know, a 143 00:08:26,960 --> 00:08:30,239 Speaker 1: well known no at all as in maritime not belly button, 144 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: that's right, that's right. So I don't know that he 145 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:34,719 Speaker 1: experienced these things firsthand, but I think he definitely had 146 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 1: the opportunity possibly to have, but more likely than that 147 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: he heard it from someone else. And this is where 148 00:08:42,000 --> 00:08:46,599 Speaker 1: we meet Clara. Let's fast forward to the seventeen hundreds. 149 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,520 Speaker 1: Clara is a rhinoceros and in seventeen thirty eight, her 150 00:08:51,600 --> 00:08:56,360 Speaker 1: mother is tragically killed in India Bamby style Bambi style dude, 151 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,960 Speaker 1: and she becomes a house pet of one yawn Albert Seek, German, 152 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:06,280 Speaker 1: director of the Dutch East India Company, and he kept her. 153 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:10,720 Speaker 1: He raised her in his estate in Kolkata until she 154 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,440 Speaker 1: got too big. Now, apparently she's very well behaved. People 155 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: loved her, She loved people, but a rhinoceros is a 156 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: huge creature, and eventually, as she grew into adulthood, she 157 00:09:21,840 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: was just, despite her best intentions, too big to walk 158 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 1: around inside without reckon the place. What do you call 159 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:31,120 Speaker 1: a baby Rhinoceros ben Is it a pup Thomas Janine 160 00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:38,320 Speaker 1: Clara Clara calf like a hippo. I believe that's the case. Um. 161 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:41,440 Speaker 1: This is so cool though, because it's this is one 162 00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,000 Speaker 1: of the stories where anytime you have animals taken out 163 00:09:44,000 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: of their natural habitat and kind of trotted around for 164 00:09:47,600 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 1: human amusement, there's it's easy to do an eye roll 165 00:09:50,440 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: and be like, oh, that is not what this animal 166 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: was meant for. But again, left to her own devices, 167 00:09:56,920 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: Clara may will have perished in the harsh wilderness of 168 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: of the Indian jungles, right. Um, But this this kindly 169 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: gentleman took her in and um, you know, would trot 170 00:10:08,200 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: her out for guests, um, apparently demonstrating her quote table 171 00:10:12,640 --> 00:10:16,199 Speaker 1: manners or right. This is coming from an article from 172 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: Getty dot du. They curated a very cool exhibit at 173 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: the Getty Museum UM in New York about Clara. And 174 00:10:23,320 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: we'll get to what might have been contained in such 175 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:29,000 Speaker 1: an exhibit in just a bit. But for one particular dinner, 176 00:10:29,160 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: let's say, just for editorial purposes, uh, Jan Albert Sickerman, Um, 177 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:39,120 Speaker 1: Clara's caretaker had a guest, a kindly Dutch sea captain. 178 00:10:39,360 --> 00:10:44,160 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let you attempt this pronunciation. Bendwimot. VanderMeer very good. 179 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:47,480 Speaker 1: And Clara at this time is about three years old. 180 00:10:47,559 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: So she spends the first two and change years of 181 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,880 Speaker 1: her life living with Sickerman. But then she is acquired 182 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:57,720 Speaker 1: by vander Meer and he takes her own a seven 183 00:10:57,880 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: month uh sea voyage around to the African continent, eventually 184 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 1: arriving in Rotterdam in July. See, and let's make no mistake, um, 185 00:11:09,200 --> 00:11:11,280 Speaker 1: Clara was not full grown at this point, but not 186 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,240 Speaker 1: in years. That's that's a big creature right there. I 187 00:11:14,360 --> 00:11:16,760 Speaker 1: want to say somewhere probably in the range of two 188 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,520 Speaker 1: thousand pounds because by now and that's not true because 189 00:11:19,559 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: by the age of eight she was five thousand. So 190 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,080 Speaker 1: what do we conjecture that she was at the age 191 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,839 Speaker 1: of three somewhere between that? Yeah, okay, somewhere between zero 192 00:11:27,160 --> 00:11:30,320 Speaker 1: pounds and five thousand pounds. I'm gonna say a three 193 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:33,960 Speaker 1: year old rhino calf, I'm gonna estimate about a thousand pounds, 194 00:11:34,000 --> 00:11:36,520 Speaker 1: so just to get her loaded up onto the ship, 195 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:41,240 Speaker 1: not to mention six month journey, um, where this creature 196 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:43,959 Speaker 1: would be need to be cared for and fed. Um, 197 00:11:44,200 --> 00:11:47,280 Speaker 1: no small task. This This is kindly sea captain really 198 00:11:47,320 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 1: did have a soft spot. He was impressed and very 199 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: taken in by this gentle giant as she was described, 200 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: and she was. She was a little bit high maintenance 201 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:59,840 Speaker 1: because she was not designed to live life on a boat. 202 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:03,839 Speaker 1: Uh So, during her travels from India to Rotterdam, she 203 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: acquired some favorite human things, namely orange peels, beer, and 204 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:10,679 Speaker 1: tobacco smoke. Yeah. I think people would like blow her 205 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:13,079 Speaker 1: shotguns or something and also give her a little sip 206 00:12:13,120 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: of their beer, probably as a gag at first, but 207 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,199 Speaker 1: I think she really did develop a taste for it 208 00:12:17,280 --> 00:12:20,000 Speaker 1: and would have a little nip throughout the rest of 209 00:12:20,040 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 1: her existence. A lot of mammals do. Yeah. And also, uh, 210 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: Clara's skin required special moisturizers so she didn't dry out, 211 00:12:29,360 --> 00:12:33,160 Speaker 1: and that's why historians conjecture that the captain may have 212 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:37,080 Speaker 1: used fish oil, may have massaged her flesh with fish 213 00:12:37,160 --> 00:12:40,000 Speaker 1: oil to keep her moisturized. Yeah. I saw a really 214 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: adorable YouTube video I think it was. This is like 215 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: sort of a fable almost there. This has been recreated 216 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,559 Speaker 1: in picture books and like laure or whatever because it 217 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:50,880 Speaker 1: is a really cute story. And I saw kind of 218 00:12:50,960 --> 00:12:55,079 Speaker 1: a pictorial animated um recreation of this, and in that 219 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,319 Speaker 1: they suggested that he thought, oh, she's drying out. What 220 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:01,960 Speaker 1: do we have in abundance of we're in the sea fish, 221 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: Let's do fish oil um. And as you can imagine, 222 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 1: it probably wasn't the most pleasant smell um, but it 223 00:13:09,040 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: did keep her skin from drying out and cracking like 224 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 1: under the under the sun. Yeah. Absolutely, this is first off, 225 00:13:16,600 --> 00:13:19,640 Speaker 1: we have to commend the captain and their crew because 226 00:13:20,160 --> 00:13:23,400 Speaker 1: they would realistically have been figuring this out on the fly. 227 00:13:23,679 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: What does a rhinocero see? How much food does it need? 228 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: How much water does it need? So this was trial 229 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:33,760 Speaker 1: and error. Unfortunately for Clara, they persevered and it worked. 230 00:13:34,160 --> 00:13:38,720 Speaker 1: When they arrived in Rotterdam, she gets a temporary home 231 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:42,920 Speaker 1: in Leaden and then in Amsterdam and she's exhibited around 232 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: the Netherlands for several years before she makes her next 233 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:51,319 Speaker 1: trip abroad to Germany, and that was in seventeen forty four. 234 00:13:51,480 --> 00:13:54,400 Speaker 1: At the time, she was called the Dutch Rhino because 235 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,160 Speaker 1: that's where that's what people associated her with. They wouldn't 236 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:02,360 Speaker 1: say it would be an unne necessarily long explanation to say, well, 237 00:14:02,640 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: you've heard of India rights, sure, And I mean, let's 238 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: think about the the way we've used circuses today. You know, 239 00:14:08,440 --> 00:14:11,080 Speaker 1: we know circuses are problematic, and then the way animals 240 00:14:11,120 --> 00:14:14,079 Speaker 1: are treated in circuses has historically been proven to be 241 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:16,800 Speaker 1: kind of gross. But think about the fascination even at 242 00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: the top of the show, Ben you had with your 243 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: pal the grizzly bear, and my abject horror slash fascination 244 00:14:23,200 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: with the ostrich things that we have seen in various forms, 245 00:14:27,840 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 1: whether printed or in movies or whatever. But this is 246 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,400 Speaker 1: a thing that people had no notion of even existing. 247 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: As far as some of people who were seeing this, 248 00:14:36,160 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: this rhino was concerned it was a dragon of some kind, right, 249 00:14:39,320 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 1: or some kind of mythical creature. So it was like 250 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:47,240 Speaker 1: rhino hysteria, the rhino craze, rhino craze, rhinomanias Germania. Yep. 251 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,640 Speaker 1: This is also the heaviest land animal on the planet. 252 00:14:56,000 --> 00:14:59,080 Speaker 1: There is an excellent book called Clara's Grand Tour, Travels 253 00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:03,880 Speaker 1: with the Rhinoceros eighteenth century Europe by Glennis Ridley, which 254 00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 1: describes in the most accurate detail possible Clara's journey. You see, 255 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: Vandermer did a lot of great things for Clara, kept 256 00:15:13,160 --> 00:15:18,080 Speaker 1: her alive much longer than the normal rhino lifespan in captivity, 257 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 1: but he didn't keep a journal, So some of this 258 00:15:21,920 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: stuff is conjecture on Ridley's part. And one of the 259 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: things that Ridley points out that there was an earlier 260 00:15:28,520 --> 00:15:33,160 Speaker 1: attempted transport of a rhino in seventeen seventy in France, 261 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: and for a single check this out, for a single 262 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: journey transporting this mail rhino to Versailles, the French government 263 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: paid for two days of work by carpenters, thirties six 264 00:15:44,320 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 1: days of work by locksmith's, fifty seven days of work 265 00:15:47,520 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 1: by blacksmith's, and seventy two days of work by a 266 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:54,680 Speaker 1: team of wheelwrights, and the wagon still collapsed. Jezus, And 267 00:15:54,680 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: wouldn't that have been like at the request of a monarch. 268 00:15:57,040 --> 00:15:58,920 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, So this is just like a dude, like 269 00:15:58,960 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: a sea captain who's had to like, you know, pull 270 00:16:01,280 --> 00:16:03,680 Speaker 1: this stuff together and figure it out. And not to 271 00:16:03,800 --> 00:16:06,680 Speaker 1: mention that in that same book you're talking about by 272 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,800 Speaker 1: the time um Clara was basically full growing around eight 273 00:16:09,880 --> 00:16:14,280 Speaker 1: years old, we're talking five thousand pounds of creature. Uh 274 00:16:14,480 --> 00:16:18,040 Speaker 1: that eats about sixty pounds of hay, twenty pounds of bread, 275 00:16:18,200 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: and fourteen buckets of water a day, not counting the beer. No, 276 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 1: not kind of, that's just like for a treat, you know. 277 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: But Rhinomania was a real thing. I mean it swept 278 00:16:29,760 --> 00:16:39,960 Speaker 1: the nation Europe, you know. Um. Clara made trips to Switzerland, Berlin, Vienna, Munich, Strasburg, Augsburg, 279 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: all over Germany, vert Sport where I was born actually, 280 00:16:42,720 --> 00:16:47,600 Speaker 1: and as Bach, Italy, London several times and inspired like 281 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: all of these aristocratic kind are members of these aristocratic 282 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: courts who were like poets and painters, right right, She 283 00:16:54,440 --> 00:17:00,400 Speaker 1: had private audiences with royalty, aristocracy and people. May This 284 00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:05,080 Speaker 1: is very clever of Vandimir. He understands the value of merchandizing, 285 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:09,920 Speaker 1: you know, so he actively encourages these different pieces of 286 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:14,600 Speaker 1: memorabilia and souvenirs commemorating Clara the Rhino. They're bronze sculptures 287 00:17:14,680 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: that are porcelain curios. There are you know, life size 288 00:17:19,280 --> 00:17:22,440 Speaker 1: portraits of her, one in seventeen forty nine by Jean 289 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: Baptiste Ludrie. She stands in this like rustic landscape. There 290 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 1: etchings of her. There's another painting in seventeen fifty one 291 00:17:31,280 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: that's currently at the National Gallery in London by Pietro Longy. 292 00:17:35,160 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: And this entire thing impact society as a whole. It 293 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:43,240 Speaker 1: is Rhinomania. She is a craze. Now most people probably 294 00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:47,119 Speaker 1: cannot afford the opportunity to see her in person, but 295 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,200 Speaker 1: vandermir anticipates that and makes some different memorabilia for different 296 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: budget levels. I like the the equivalent of like a 297 00:17:53,480 --> 00:17:57,200 Speaker 1: commemorative circus cup or something like that, you know, exactly 298 00:17:57,359 --> 00:18:01,640 Speaker 1: one of those light up swords. And during her heyday, 299 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 1: during the heyday of her tour for a season, things 300 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: that were fashionable in the world of style and dress 301 00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: were referred to as anceros. Yeah. I think there was 302 00:18:12,359 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: even a hair do that got popular in France, and 303 00:18:14,880 --> 00:18:17,600 Speaker 1: we can picture some of those big, billowy bouffon hairstyles 304 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 1: in France. One of them was I believe called the rhinoceros, 305 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 1: and they decorated horses with that as well, with like 306 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 1: little rhino ears and little rhino tails. Yeah, it was like, 307 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:30,280 Speaker 1: I mean, it was an absolute sensation. Um. And I 308 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: know you mentioned private audiences with certain monarchs, but I 309 00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:35,960 Speaker 1: I haven't confirmed this, but I did see uh in 310 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:41,080 Speaker 1: one um source that Louis the fifteen actually offered to 311 00:18:41,320 --> 00:18:45,760 Speaker 1: buy Clara from our kindly sea captain um and or 312 00:18:46,119 --> 00:18:48,800 Speaker 1: or or at least expressed that he very much wanted 313 00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:52,520 Speaker 1: this creature, to which VanderMeer said, I'll give her to 314 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: you for some exorbitant price, to which Louis turned his 315 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,399 Speaker 1: nose up because he was expecting it to be gifted 316 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 1: to him. But no, VanderMeer was very very much this 317 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:02,560 Speaker 1: was like a companion, even though he was, you know, 318 00:19:02,640 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: cleaning up making bank. Obviously, with this rhinow it really 319 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:09,879 Speaker 1: does seem like he loved her. Yeah, and she was 320 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:15,600 Speaker 1: inspiring songs and poems dedicated to Clara. And I think 321 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:19,000 Speaker 1: you already mentioned that when she towards Italy she met 322 00:19:19,080 --> 00:19:22,200 Speaker 1: the same fanfare. That's where this wonderful painting comes from, 323 00:19:22,880 --> 00:19:27,159 Speaker 1: with some Venetians and masked staring at the rhinoceros very 324 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:30,159 Speaker 1: very eyes wide shut. That one's for you, Casey. And 325 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: speaking of way, check out Casey Pegram's recurring guest spot 326 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:37,760 Speaker 1: on our our buddy Chuck's podcast movie Crush, which I 327 00:19:37,800 --> 00:19:41,160 Speaker 1: appear on occasionally as well doing a series about Kubrick's 328 00:19:41,160 --> 00:19:44,320 Speaker 1: eyes Weet shut and I believe you a Linden and 329 00:19:44,400 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: the Shining as well. Right, yeah, those three, and we 330 00:19:46,960 --> 00:19:51,239 Speaker 1: got Passive Lord upon Love Passive fantastic, such a good one. 331 00:19:51,280 --> 00:19:52,399 Speaker 1: And so it's sort of a lets I think if 332 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 1: people don't think of it as like top Kubrick, but 333 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: it's one of my favorites. I agree. Why you may ask, well, 334 00:19:58,359 --> 00:20:00,639 Speaker 1: you'll have to tune in to move be crushed to 335 00:20:00,840 --> 00:20:06,639 Speaker 1: find out along the way. Both as an animal and 336 00:20:06,960 --> 00:20:12,399 Speaker 1: as an increasingly relevant cultural icon. It seems that vandom 337 00:20:12,400 --> 00:20:17,520 Speaker 1: Mere and Clara really do have this bond. And she 338 00:20:17,840 --> 00:20:20,800 Speaker 1: lives where we said. She lived longer than any rhino 339 00:20:20,920 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: and captivity beforehand had. She lived around twenty years. She 340 00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:29,240 Speaker 1: went to London three times. You know there are I 341 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:31,480 Speaker 1: haven't been to London three times. What am I doing 342 00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:32,960 Speaker 1: with my life? Dude? I mean I went to I 343 00:20:33,000 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 1: think I have all the cool European destinations I've been to. 344 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:38,320 Speaker 1: I went when I was too young to remember, um, 345 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:40,120 Speaker 1: when I traveled with my mom when she was doing 346 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: opera stuff. So I really hope to remedy that. But yes, seriously, 347 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: this rhin now lived large, and think about all the 348 00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: voyages and the hoisting onto a ship and all of this. 349 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,359 Speaker 1: So yeah, the coach itself, she had to be pulled 350 00:20:52,440 --> 00:20:56,480 Speaker 1: by six horses in a specially reinforced coach. And again 351 00:20:56,560 --> 00:21:00,880 Speaker 1: with the whole trivia about the French over men's attempts 352 00:21:00,920 --> 00:21:03,399 Speaker 1: to do this thing. This dude cracked the code. And 353 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,879 Speaker 1: I guess he must have parlayed all of that Clara 354 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: money into ways of keeping her comfortable. You know, we 355 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:11,480 Speaker 1: don't really read a lot about him living in the 356 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: absolute lap of luxury. I even heard that read that 357 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:19,000 Speaker 1: early on, when she was still growing and he hadn't 358 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: quite cracked his racket yet, he would go hungry in 359 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:25,680 Speaker 1: order to feed Clara the rhino again. This again, it's 360 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 1: sort of taken the form of a bit of a 361 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: fairy tale the way it's written in some places. But 362 00:21:29,920 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: that's it's it's it's interesting detail to have survived, you know. 363 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: And so spoiler alert, Clara is no longer with us. 364 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 1: If we assume that she was approximately two years old 365 00:21:42,240 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 1: when purchased by Vandermere and brought to Laden in seventeen 366 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 1: forty one, she would have been twenty and seventeen fifty eight, 367 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,639 Speaker 1: and that is when on her third visit to London 368 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:58,000 Speaker 1: she passed away. Unfortunately, there are no contemporary reports from 369 00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: visitors who saw Clara of any visible signs of illness, 370 00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:07,359 Speaker 1: and to this day her death seems sudden, unexpected, and 371 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:09,920 Speaker 1: we don't have a clear cause of death either. No, 372 00:22:10,080 --> 00:22:12,280 Speaker 1: we don't. Um, from from what I've seen it, it 373 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:14,879 Speaker 1: just sounds like it was her time. I mean, it 374 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: was sort of an old age thing, given that she 375 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: exceeded the lifespan of a typical rhino. Yeah. I I 376 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: saw one one version of the story that she lost 377 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 1: her horn or her horn fell off earlier before she 378 00:22:28,000 --> 00:22:30,959 Speaker 1: passed away, and that vander Meir was concerned for her. 379 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 1: But then he continued to he felt that she enjoyed 380 00:22:34,880 --> 00:22:36,840 Speaker 1: this life and that she was like, this was the 381 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:39,280 Speaker 1: life for her, that she got pleasure out of being 382 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: paraded around and being admired and you know, sort of 383 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:44,320 Speaker 1: anthropomorphizing I guess, which we'll get to in a little bit. 384 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 1: But apparently the horn grew back, and um, she had 385 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,480 Speaker 1: another couple of good years in her of this life. Yeah, 386 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:53,680 Speaker 1: let's see. There's one theory that I thought was interesting 387 00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:55,920 Speaker 1: that comes again from that book I mentioned earlier. Clear 388 00:22:55,960 --> 00:23:00,000 Speaker 1: as brand tour. There's one theory that says it's possible 389 00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: bowl that she just had a natural disease that would 390 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:06,960 Speaker 1: have led to her death in the wild regardless. And 391 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:10,119 Speaker 1: there's another theory that says the vast quantities of bread 392 00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:14,240 Speaker 1: she ate while on display in London may be a 393 00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,480 Speaker 1: cluded or death, since any fungal growth in the week could, 394 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: if consumed in large enough quantities, have a severe effect 395 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: on the digestive system. But this is all speculation, and 396 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:29,959 Speaker 1: the main point is that this gentle, gigantic, beautiful creature, 397 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: single horned lee, I'm gonna keep that. Thank thanks, I'm 398 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: gonna keep it. She she changed the way that Europe 399 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:46,199 Speaker 1: understood uh the world beyond the edges of their maps. 400 00:23:47,040 --> 00:23:51,200 Speaker 1: And while we're speculating no this this leads us to 401 00:23:51,400 --> 00:23:57,359 Speaker 1: our segue. It's often said that fame can change people, right, Right, 402 00:23:57,640 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: sudden rise to fame and you can't remember who your 403 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:04,360 Speaker 1: real friends are, you win the lottery or something like that, Right, 404 00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,600 Speaker 1: how does it affect you psychologically? Well, Claire of the 405 00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: Rhinoceros had a sudden stratospheric rise to fame. Is it 406 00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,640 Speaker 1: possible that this rise to fame could have affected her 407 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 1: the same way it affects a human being. Admittedly, Noll, 408 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 1: this is a pretty great question, but I think we 409 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,119 Speaker 1: could use a little bit of help exploring it. What 410 00:24:27,200 --> 00:24:29,119 Speaker 1: do you say. I think we have to because we 411 00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 1: set up a special guest at the beginning of the show, 412 00:24:30,920 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: and if we don't follow through with that, people will 413 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: think we're liars. There'll be chaos in the streets. My friend, 414 00:24:35,520 --> 00:24:39,480 Speaker 1: Luckily that wasn't just a bunch of smoke and mirrors 415 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:45,159 Speaker 1: of fellow ridiculous historians. We are delighted to introduce you 416 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: to today's guest, uh Pure podcast of ours, A big 417 00:24:49,119 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 1: friend of the show, Katie Golden, the host of Creature 418 00:24:52,880 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 1: feature Kaka, is happy to be here. We are so 419 00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 1: happy to have you. And you might remember Katie because 420 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: an episode of her amazing show snuck into our feed 421 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 1: and then obviously you subscribed to her show immediately and 422 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:07,720 Speaker 1: now you're huge fans, so we're all family here. Yeah, 423 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:13,400 Speaker 1: so we were. We were very curious on to hear 424 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,440 Speaker 1: your take on this, Katie. We set up earlier that 425 00:25:16,600 --> 00:25:21,880 Speaker 1: question of how sudden fame could impact human being psychologically. 426 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: We were we were hoping to learn if there's whether 427 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 1: there's any analog to that in the world of or 428 00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:31,280 Speaker 1: in the mind rather of the rhinoceros. Yeah. I think 429 00:25:31,359 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: that's a really interesting question because there is so there's 430 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 1: a lot of research into animals in captivity and their psychology, 431 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:46,240 Speaker 1: especially these larger animals like elephants and rhinos and tigers, 432 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,920 Speaker 1: you know, where they they require a lot of territory 433 00:25:50,119 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: and a lot of their natural environment is just so 434 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: expansive that when you put them in captivity and you 435 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: put them in a different environment, it is a drastic 436 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,480 Speaker 1: psychologic whole shift for them. So I think, like to 437 00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,040 Speaker 1: explore the question of fame, like first you kind of 438 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: have to know a little bit about animals and captivity. 439 00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:13,280 Speaker 1: So like, even when animals are really well looked after, 440 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,080 Speaker 1: um and cared for and the zookeepers really love them, 441 00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,800 Speaker 1: say it like the San Diego Zoo, where it's just 442 00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,360 Speaker 1: a it's a fantastic zoo, but they still have these 443 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:29,520 Speaker 1: issues of what are called stereotypes, which are like these 444 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,399 Speaker 1: kind of like obsessive compulsive behaviors that animals do when 445 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,400 Speaker 1: they're in captivity, um, like polar bears or elephants, um, 446 00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:44,680 Speaker 1: And they'll do things like repeated ticks, movements, obsessive grooming, pacing, um. 447 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,200 Speaker 1: And for rhinos, one of the things they do is 448 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,679 Speaker 1: they have these awesome prehensile upper lips or their semi 449 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: prehensile and that's how they can like grasp twigs or 450 00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:59,199 Speaker 1: grasp stocks of grass and chew those up. They'll kind 451 00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:01,840 Speaker 1: of fidget with that upper lip and do these repeated 452 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 1: motions with that as a sign of stress. And uh 453 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:10,879 Speaker 1: so there is something in uh in terms of captivity 454 00:27:11,000 --> 00:27:14,160 Speaker 1: that can really stress out animals, and especially the large ones. 455 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:19,880 Speaker 1: But there's evidence that increased um enrichment helps them out. 456 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:23,040 Speaker 1: It helps de stress them. So things like having to 457 00:27:23,440 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 1: work through puzzles to get through their food. UM like 458 00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,760 Speaker 1: games and toys and positive interactions with their trainers, so 459 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: allowing them to Uh. One thing that I think people 460 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:39,560 Speaker 1: might not know about rhinos is you can actually train 461 00:27:40,080 --> 00:27:45,120 Speaker 1: their trainable. Uh. They're fairly intelligent. You can give them. 462 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,320 Speaker 1: There's one rhino that has learned learned how to paint 463 00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:54,840 Speaker 1: using its upper lip. So the so the keeper applies 464 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:57,040 Speaker 1: a dab of paint to its upper lip and then 465 00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: it just kind of The paintings are gotta say, they 466 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: aren't great, A little abstract perhaps. I mean, I know 467 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 1: it's it's easy to be a critic, but they I mean, 468 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,359 Speaker 1: there's a certain genes sequa that's lacking in them. But 469 00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,000 Speaker 1: saying gorilla paintings are superior elephants, they think they might be. 470 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,000 Speaker 1: Even elephant paintings I think are a little better. I'm 471 00:28:22,040 --> 00:28:24,920 Speaker 1: really sorry to say, but I mean the rhino paintings, 472 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,920 Speaker 1: they put in a real good effort there. I'd put 473 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: it on my fridge. Well, I mean, a limp isn't 474 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,879 Speaker 1: quite the same as like a trunk or like, you know, hands. 475 00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:37,680 Speaker 1: I know, I'm waiting for the octopus paintings. I have 476 00:28:37,720 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 1: a quick question for you, because this is all super 477 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 1: fascinating already, But one thing we maybe didn't mention is 478 00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:46,120 Speaker 1: that Clara Um lost her mother as a as a baby, 479 00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,400 Speaker 1: like Bambi style, and was always kind of taken care 480 00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: of by humans from from the age of like two 481 00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,960 Speaker 1: or three. Do you think that would make these this 482 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 1: transition into captivity or whatever version of captivity you could 483 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,920 Speaker 1: call being paraded aroun ound in this way. I mean, 484 00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:02,680 Speaker 1: it wasn't in one place. There was a lot of traveling, 485 00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,560 Speaker 1: which probably was even more traumatic now that I think 486 00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:06,560 Speaker 1: about it. But do you think having been exposed to 487 00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:08,640 Speaker 1: that kind of life from such an early age would 488 00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,280 Speaker 1: make a difference in developing those ticks or any kind 489 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:15,480 Speaker 1: of negative attributes. I mean it is interesting because there 490 00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: is kind of a precedent of a polar bear being 491 00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: separated from its parents, uh and then developing these ticks, 492 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: and then like being reunited with its parents and still 493 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: having the ticks. So it's not necessarily clear that that 494 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:34,120 Speaker 1: parental separation would make it worse or better. It could 495 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,080 Speaker 1: trigger uh some stress for sure, um. But then also 496 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:40,920 Speaker 1: being raised from such a young age by humans would 497 00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:46,120 Speaker 1: probably allow her to see them more as peers, especially 498 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: if they're um interacting with her in a real positive way, 499 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,720 Speaker 1: and if the training is very um it takes the 500 00:29:54,800 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: approach of being encouraging rather than punitive. Uh that I 501 00:30:00,720 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: think that would have a potentially positive effect on her psychology. Obviously, 502 00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:09,720 Speaker 1: none of this is ideal, Like the ideal thing is 503 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,960 Speaker 1: for her to be in her natural environment and have 504 00:30:13,080 --> 00:30:16,520 Speaker 1: a social life with other rhinos. Although I have to 505 00:30:16,560 --> 00:30:20,880 Speaker 1: say rhinos aren't the most social of animals there, they 506 00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:24,200 Speaker 1: definitely do display a lot of friendly behaviors with each other. 507 00:30:24,280 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 1: They're not very aggressive with other rhinos. Only male rhinos 508 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:32,240 Speaker 1: can be a little bit territorial and aggressive with other males, 509 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 1: and when they are it's pretty catastrophic, but typically they're 510 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:40,840 Speaker 1: not in uh. Females will sometimes be in groups in 511 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,080 Speaker 1: the wild, so like with usually it's with their their 512 00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 1: infants or young um or even young males can sometimes 513 00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,280 Speaker 1: be tolerated by females as they're sort of learning to 514 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: make it on their own, and sometimes they'll have like 515 00:30:54,120 --> 00:30:58,160 Speaker 1: play dates with other females where they're all their calves 516 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: will get together and kind of romp around um. So 517 00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:06,680 Speaker 1: I think for a female rhino like Clara, she would 518 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:11,960 Speaker 1: tolerate social interaction and expect it, although it must be 519 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,160 Speaker 1: very bizarre for her because no matter how kind her 520 00:31:15,920 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: or well intentioned her owners are, they are not going 521 00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:21,880 Speaker 1: to know rhino body language. They're not going to be 522 00:31:22,000 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: able to flap their ears back and forth and kind 523 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: of like bob their head in a way that's going 524 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,280 Speaker 1: to communicate to her that they're playful or friendly. So 525 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:35,200 Speaker 1: she might I'd imagine it'd be confusing, probably a little 526 00:31:35,240 --> 00:31:37,760 Speaker 1: better since she was raised since she was a calf, 527 00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: but still kind of like, you know, imagine being stuck 528 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 1: with these aliens who seem to care for you, but 529 00:31:46,960 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: they just are so weird. They're just these blobs that 530 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,600 Speaker 1: have no expression, no show, no emotion, and kind of 531 00:31:53,680 --> 00:31:56,560 Speaker 1: just give you food and sometimes soothe you in certain ways, 532 00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: and so you could maybe sometimes infer some hair, but 533 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:03,880 Speaker 1: it would be hard for you to totally feel like 534 00:32:04,000 --> 00:32:09,600 Speaker 1: you're actually socializing. Fantastic. They can't even paint with their lips, 535 00:32:09,720 --> 00:32:17,600 Speaker 1: you know what I mean. I had some follow up 536 00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:22,480 Speaker 1: questions here. Do female rhinos specifically experience any kind of 537 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:28,160 Speaker 1: um like fertility cycle that would change their behavior in adulthood? 538 00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 1: That is interesting because typically like the only sort of 539 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:36,920 Speaker 1: adult interactions that female rhinos are going to have our 540 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:41,360 Speaker 1: when they're in estras, so like they're when they're going 541 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:45,680 Speaker 1: to mate with a male. So I would assume, Um, 542 00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:49,200 Speaker 1: it's hard for me to say definitively how that would 543 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:54,880 Speaker 1: translate to interactions with humans, but um, there's certainly periods 544 00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: of time where you know they'll be more receptive to males, 545 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: and they're also um when their mothers, they're more receptive 546 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: to company from um females with calves and juvenile males. 547 00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 1: So yeah, I would think that perhaps her kind of 548 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:17,719 Speaker 1: she might even have sort of a longing for certain 549 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: rhino's social events that she's missing out on without really 550 00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: understanding what they are or why she feels that way, 551 00:33:26,440 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: because I don't, you know, like she may have that 552 00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 1: urge to do some kind of like socializing with her 553 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,840 Speaker 1: own young But if she didn't, she didn't have any calves, right, 554 00:33:39,360 --> 00:33:41,920 Speaker 1: So it's it's kind of it's an interesting thing. I 555 00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:46,880 Speaker 1: wonder if she since something was missing, but probably couldn't 556 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,920 Speaker 1: understand why she felt that way or what that would be, 557 00:33:50,120 --> 00:33:53,440 Speaker 1: because I don't think they're They're intelligent, but not intelligent 558 00:33:53,640 --> 00:33:57,000 Speaker 1: enough to no like, oh I want to have a 559 00:33:57,080 --> 00:33:59,320 Speaker 1: baby or I want to mate with a male right now, 560 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 1: but be just sort of a vague anxiety. Could they 561 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:08,720 Speaker 1: feel loneliness perhaps? Or and also additionally, would over time 562 00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: a rhinoceros be able to learn, for the lack of 563 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:15,880 Speaker 1: a better word, learn to read human body language or 564 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 1: physical cues, I think to some extent um. Well, first 565 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,319 Speaker 1: of all, um, I mean it's hard to say how 566 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,759 Speaker 1: especially in an animal like a rhino that is not 567 00:34:28,440 --> 00:34:30,800 Speaker 1: as social as other animals. So I would be a 568 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 1: lot more confident to say like an elephant or a 569 00:34:34,600 --> 00:34:40,400 Speaker 1: dog is going to feel lonely. Um. Rhinos are solitary 570 00:34:40,719 --> 00:34:44,200 Speaker 1: enough that I don't know. I think that maybe I 571 00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:48,759 Speaker 1: think that, you know, because they do have some positive 572 00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: social interactions, and although they're infrequent, they do happen. Um, 573 00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:57,719 Speaker 1: and especially the females have a longer period of time 574 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:01,480 Speaker 1: where they're with their young. I think it's certainly possible 575 00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:05,200 Speaker 1: she felt loneliness, but probably couldn't you know. It would 576 00:35:05,239 --> 00:35:08,480 Speaker 1: be a very different experience for an animal like a 577 00:35:08,600 --> 00:35:11,240 Speaker 1: rhino versus a human or even a more social animal 578 00:35:11,320 --> 00:35:14,560 Speaker 1: like a primate. And then in terms of understanding human 579 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,880 Speaker 1: body language, yes, I do think because rhinos are trainable, 580 00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 1: I think they could start to understand certain cues and 581 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: body language is meaning certain things. It's hard to know 582 00:35:28,080 --> 00:35:31,720 Speaker 1: how emotionally salient that would be the too a rhinos, 583 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,319 Speaker 1: So like there's a difference between understanding a certain que 584 00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 1: means they're about to get food or praise and actually 585 00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,480 Speaker 1: making the connection to being a meaningful social interaction. So 586 00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:45,319 Speaker 1: I think it's possible, though for sure. I think that's 587 00:35:45,360 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: a really interesting angle to this story too, because the 588 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,120 Speaker 1: sea captain who kept her um didn't we don't have 589 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:52,840 Speaker 1: any journals of his, so a lot of this is 590 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 1: like second third hand, and it almost has taken on 591 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,479 Speaker 1: the quality of like a fable or a fairy tale 592 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:01,239 Speaker 1: or something, and it feels very Disneyfied, like all of 593 00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:04,000 Speaker 1: the accounts are very much like he and he cared 594 00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:06,960 Speaker 1: for Clara the young rhino, and she was like his 595 00:36:07,160 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: very own child and blah blah blah, and it's very 596 00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:13,880 Speaker 1: anthropomorphized kind of version of this wild animal. And I 597 00:36:13,960 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: think that holds true with what you're saying. But I'm 598 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,880 Speaker 1: just wondering, do you feel like I feel like what 599 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:20,760 Speaker 1: we're doing here talking to you is kind of arriving 600 00:36:20,800 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: at more of the reality of the thing as opposed 601 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 1: to the fable side. I don't really have a question. 602 00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,120 Speaker 1: I was just kind of commenting it's just interesting because 603 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:29,560 Speaker 1: you know, I initially I was like, Oh, this sea 604 00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:31,879 Speaker 1: captain is such a nice kind man, and I'm sure 605 00:36:31,920 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: he was, and I'm sure there's some truth to it, 606 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,719 Speaker 1: but he made a lot of money. He made a 607 00:36:35,760 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 1: lot of money. And also I bet Clara wasn't as 608 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,520 Speaker 1: down for it as he maybe made her out to me. 609 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 1: You know, I think up to Clara, she would have probably, 610 00:36:44,560 --> 00:36:48,680 Speaker 1: given the choice, opted to hang with rhinos. Yea, yeah, 611 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,160 Speaker 1: I mean it's it's not an ideal scenario. I think 612 00:36:52,680 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: no real like captive situation for a wild animal, especially 613 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,840 Speaker 1: the size of a rhino, is going to be ideal. 614 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:05,239 Speaker 1: If it's true that she was without her mother. You know, 615 00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,680 Speaker 1: now we do kind of have the understanding of how 616 00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:12,960 Speaker 1: to potentially rehabilitate young calves in captivity, but then kind 617 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:16,720 Speaker 1: of socialize them so they understand how to uh succeed 618 00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:18,840 Speaker 1: out in the wild. But maybe back then they didn't 619 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: understand that as well, so there may not have been 620 00:37:22,160 --> 00:37:24,319 Speaker 1: much of an alternative. Do you think left to her 621 00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:28,959 Speaker 1: own devices, she probably would have like perished like left alone. Yeah, 622 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:32,600 Speaker 1: she's a if she's a yacht like a calf, it's 623 00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:35,840 Speaker 1: unlikely without her mother she would survive. I guess it 624 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: depends on how young she was. But you know, rhinos 625 00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:42,880 Speaker 1: don't have that many natural predators as adults, but the 626 00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,759 Speaker 1: calves certainly can get taken down by tigers and uh, 627 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: and she was I think she was in Indian right, Yeah, 628 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: so like tigers and humans would be her main threats, 629 00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: and a tiger could certainly take down a young calf. Well, 630 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:01,200 Speaker 1: and then I maybe I'll get the kindly sea captain 631 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 1: a bit of a past, because the alternative probably not 632 00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:06,400 Speaker 1: not a good thing. Yeah. I don't want sea captains 633 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:08,160 Speaker 1: to get the idea that you should be just like 634 00:38:08,400 --> 00:38:11,640 Speaker 1: taking rhinos out of the wild. Though, Oh my gosh, 635 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,480 Speaker 1: our sea captain audience, Katie, they just they just turned 636 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: on us. They're gonna take this really tough. That also, 637 00:38:17,960 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 1: you've lost the coveted sea captain democrats. Yeah. Well, also 638 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:28,759 Speaker 1: that that goes for any any animal that's similar. Right. 639 00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,400 Speaker 1: We we see these, um, these cute sea stories, for instance, 640 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 1: about a couple in South Africa that has a hippo, 641 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: right that lives in their house. But it's very important 642 00:38:40,880 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: to remember that as much as we want to anthropomorphize 643 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 1: these things, these creatures are fundamentally different animals and there's 644 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,120 Speaker 1: not a there's not a really compelling reason to take 645 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:59,400 Speaker 1: one out of the wild other than conserving the species, right, 646 00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:02,600 Speaker 1: And I think that's that's something that we we hit 647 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,400 Speaker 1: on a lot with these stories. Yeah, no, I completely agree, 648 00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,000 Speaker 1: And um, I think this is a really awesome way 649 00:39:09,120 --> 00:39:11,240 Speaker 1: to take this out of that kind of fairytale realm 650 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: and do a little bit of a reality check. So 651 00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:16,080 Speaker 1: thanks again for giving us that, Katie. I have one 652 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: more question. This is purely for my curiosity and probably 653 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: for our listeners as well. Do you yourself have any pets? 654 00:39:24,640 --> 00:39:27,920 Speaker 1: I do? Yeah, so I have a dog named Cookie. 655 00:39:28,640 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 1: She's a pretty good girl. It's fantastic. I I just 656 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:35,600 Speaker 1: I was going on the off chance that you might 657 00:39:35,680 --> 00:39:39,960 Speaker 1: say I actually do have a rhino but but let 658 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 1: me explain. Um, well, please say a little to Cookie 659 00:39:43,200 --> 00:39:46,200 Speaker 1: for us. Thank you, as as my COO said, thank 660 00:39:46,239 --> 00:39:49,560 Speaker 1: you so much for coming on the show and shedding 661 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,879 Speaker 1: some light on the enigma of rhino intelligence and the life, 662 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,719 Speaker 1: the inner life of animals and captivity. Yeah, for sure. 663 00:39:58,239 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 1: And this is the thing that you do on the 664 00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 1: regular on your incredible podcast creature feature. Can you tell 665 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:04,440 Speaker 1: us a little bit about that and where folks can 666 00:40:04,520 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: find you and it. Yeah. So we talk about human 667 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: behavior and also animal behavior and sort of the crossroads 668 00:40:12,520 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: of these two seemingly different worlds. And I think as 669 00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:20,600 Speaker 1: we have these discussions, we find out that even though 670 00:40:20,680 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: you can't necessarily completely anthropomorphize the animals, there's a lot 671 00:40:25,719 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: of interesting crossover and behaviors that you'll find in animals 672 00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,520 Speaker 1: that are kind of eerily similar to our own. Uh, 673 00:40:33,600 --> 00:40:36,839 Speaker 1: and we look at it from the perspective of evolutionary 674 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:42,400 Speaker 1: biology and research and clinical psychology. UM. And so you 675 00:40:42,480 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: can find us. Our podcast is called Creature Feature and 676 00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:51,680 Speaker 1: it's on iTunes, uh wherever you get your podcasts, and 677 00:40:51,719 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: also the I Heart Radio app uh. And also you 678 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,200 Speaker 1: could follow us on Twitter at Creature Feet pods. So 679 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,759 Speaker 1: not feet like you know, but feet as an f 680 00:41:04,000 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: E A t as in a great accomplishment. I want 681 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 1: to I do wanna, I do want to thank you, 682 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:13,960 Speaker 1: in particular for an episode that came out in December, 683 00:41:14,440 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 1: Extra Sensory Pssception. I appreciate that episode, in particular exploring 684 00:41:21,239 --> 00:41:24,960 Speaker 1: the uncanny ways the animals are able to perceive the world. 685 00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:29,320 Speaker 1: So this this stuff is great. Of course, I and 686 00:41:29,680 --> 00:41:33,280 Speaker 1: probably Noel as well, really enjoy the Dark Tetrat episode. 687 00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:35,480 Speaker 1: Not just because we're on it, no, but it was 688 00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,799 Speaker 1: just like it was so cool the way you had 689 00:41:37,840 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 1: a song where we really didn't do much legwork ahead 690 00:41:40,440 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 1: of time, just kind of came in and we're able 691 00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,359 Speaker 1: to have a cool conversation with you about animal psychopaths. 692 00:41:46,680 --> 00:41:49,759 Speaker 1: So yeah, I mean, true crime is the thing now 693 00:41:49,840 --> 00:41:52,919 Speaker 1: and I feel like animals. You gotta get a piece 694 00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:55,520 Speaker 1: of that true crime pie, no question. And don't you 695 00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: also run a Twitter account where you like are the 696 00:41:58,160 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: persona of like of a bird bird rights activists? Okay, yes, 697 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 1: so I'm allegedly the author of a pro bird rights 698 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,640 Speaker 1: bird rights activists and I am totally a real human 699 00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 1: person and not. I haven't been paid by birds to 700 00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,640 Speaker 1: pretend to be well, I totally and I gotta I 701 00:42:16,680 --> 00:42:18,560 Speaker 1: gotta tell you real quick. And I've then knows this. 702 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:21,840 Speaker 1: Everybody who knows me knows this. I am terrified of birds. 703 00:42:22,120 --> 00:42:25,120 Speaker 1: I don't like their weird, little creepy beady eyes and 704 00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,600 Speaker 1: their unpredictable movements, and they absolutely give me the creeps 705 00:42:28,600 --> 00:42:31,200 Speaker 1: and always have. But I think your account is hilarious 706 00:42:31,239 --> 00:42:32,759 Speaker 1: and actually you kind of play into some of the 707 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:38,640 Speaker 1: things that I find creepy and untrustworthy about birds. App well, 708 00:42:38,640 --> 00:42:43,640 Speaker 1: their direct descendants of the TRX. They're little little tiant 709 00:42:43,680 --> 00:42:47,440 Speaker 1: dinosaurs that must be what does it? And jackdaws corvids 710 00:42:47,560 --> 00:42:50,480 Speaker 1: in general are just brilliant. You can befriend them and 711 00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:52,600 Speaker 1: they'll teach their young. Oh that's a different I would 712 00:42:52,640 --> 00:42:56,800 Speaker 1: I would prefer not to. You can have all the corvids. 713 00:42:56,880 --> 00:42:59,160 Speaker 1: You can have them all. But yeah, thanks again Katie 714 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: for coming on the show. Thanks to our super producer 715 00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:04,200 Speaker 1: Casey Pegram, Thanks to Alex Williams who composed our theme. 716 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:09,000 Speaker 1: Thanks to our research associate Gabe Katie, thank you again. 717 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: We hope that you have enjoyed this episode. We hope 718 00:43:13,160 --> 00:43:16,560 Speaker 1: that you tune in for our next episode, which is 719 00:43:16,680 --> 00:43:20,160 Speaker 1: going to examine the story of someone who may indeed 720 00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:24,440 Speaker 1: be the highest paid athlete in history. Who is it? 721 00:43:25,239 --> 00:43:27,680 Speaker 1: The answer will surprise you. There are several ways to 722 00:43:27,760 --> 00:43:29,600 Speaker 1: find out. We have a way that we would like 723 00:43:29,719 --> 00:43:31,640 Speaker 1: you to find out, which is to tune into our show. 724 00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:34,200 Speaker 1: In the meantime, you could say hello to the best 725 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:37,479 Speaker 1: part of our show, your fellow listeners on our Facebook page, 726 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,520 Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Yeah, you can check me out on Instagram 727 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 1: at Embryonic Insider. I am Ben Boland in a burst 728 00:43:44,400 --> 00:43:47,000 Speaker 1: of creativity. That's the name I chose. On Instagram, you 729 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,920 Speaker 1: can see pictures of my pets and my various weird adventures. 730 00:43:50,920 --> 00:43:53,000 Speaker 1: Did I tell you I'm ending up in Korea again? Yeah? No, 731 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,040 Speaker 1: you wouldn't tell me. You said you had a thing 732 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:57,799 Speaker 1: you weren't be able to record. It's okay, okay, thanks 733 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,520 Speaker 1: for thanks for the infact, but we'll see you next time. Huxo.