Speaker 1: Hey, guys, ready or not, twenty twenty four is here,
Speaker 1: and we here at breaking points, are already thinking of
Speaker 1: ways we can up our game for this critical election.
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Speaker 2: But enough with that, let's get to the show.
Speaker 1: Very pleased to be joined once again by Professor Norm Finkelstein.
Speaker 3: He is an author. He is an activist.
Speaker 1: He is a political scientist, author of many books, including
Speaker 1: Gaza and Inquest into Martyrdom.
Speaker 3: Great to see again her.
Speaker 4: Thank you for having me.
Speaker 1: So I wanted to start with I know there were
Speaker 1: a few interviews recent Louis, including one that occurred on
Speaker 1: our program, that caught your interest, and that can take
Speaker 1: some inaccuracies or claims that you thought were worth responding to.
Speaker 1: And so the first one that I wanted to get
Speaker 1: you to take a look at was a recent monologue
Speaker 1: from Bill Maher. Let's take a listen to a bit
Speaker 1: of that.
Speaker 5: But eventually everybody comes to an accommodation except the Palestinians.
Speaker 5: Was it unjust that even a single Arab family was
Speaker 5: forced to move upon the founding of the Jewish state. Yes,
Speaker 5: but it's also not rare. And no one knows more
Speaker 5: about being pushed off land than the Jews, including being
Speaker 5: almost wholly kicked out of every Arab country they once
Speaker 5: lived in. Yes, TikTok fans ethnic ethnic cleansing happened both ways.
Speaker 5: In Fedler. On the roof, the family is always moving
Speaker 5: to stay one step ahead of the Cossacks.
Speaker 4: But they deal with it.
Speaker 5: When they're leaving Antevka, they say, Hey, it wasn't so
Speaker 5: great anyway. Nobody was a bigger colonizer than the Muslim
Speaker 5: army that swept out of the Arabian desert and took
Speaker 5: over much of the world in a single century. And
Speaker 5: they didn't do it by asking. Is a reason Saudi
Speaker 5: Arabia's flag is a sword. Arafat was offered ninety five
Speaker 5: percent of the West Bank and said no. The Palestinian
Speaker 5: people should know your leaders and the useful idiots on
Speaker 5: college campuses who are their allies, are not doing you
Speaker 5: any favors by keeping alive the river to the sea myth,
Speaker 5: I mean where do you think Israel is going spoiler
Speaker 5: alert nowhere?
Speaker 1: So the sort of core of the point he is
Speaker 1: making is Jews got kicked down of a lot of
Speaker 1: countries too, and it's effectively time for Palestinians to get
Speaker 1: over it and move on.
Speaker 6: Just as a general point, I find it rather amusing
Speaker 6: when I hear Bill Maher anticipating about I think you
Speaker 6: see the longer clip about the antheum, about the Roman Empire,
Speaker 6: about Muslim expansion. He knows as much about these topics
Speaker 6: as Joy Behar. The only difference between him and this
Speaker 6: Behar is she reads her factoids off of index cards.
Speaker 6: Well he reads them off of a monitor, and neither
Speaker 6: of them is, my opinion, particularly funny. And I find
Speaker 6: it in a very poor taste in the midst of
Speaker 6: a genocide to making these rather impoverished attempts at humor
Speaker 6: where half the audience laughing uproariously sounds as if they
Speaker 6: were paid to laugh. But let's leave all that a site.
Speaker 6: Let's get to the factual matters. Here are the facts
Speaker 6: the Palestinians on the zion Is project. I'm not going
Speaker 6: to go through the whole history, I promise your listeners.
Speaker 6: Design This project begins roughly at the end of the
Speaker 6: nineteenth century. Their aim was to establish a Jewish state
Speaker 6: in Palestine. Palestine was not empty. It became obvious to
Speaker 6: the indigenous population that the realization of Desionist enterprise to
Speaker 6: create a Jewish state would at minimum reduce them to
Speaker 6: second class citizens in their own place of birth, or
Speaker 6: at worst result in their expulsion. And design this movement
Speaker 6: coined in a locution they called a transfer. They didn't
Speaker 6: want to use the vulgar, gross term expulsion, so they
Speaker 6: called it the transfer. And as Israel's leading historian, by
Speaker 6: the way, at this point, is extremely right wing. His
Speaker 6: name is Benny Morris, and you'll see him in all
Speaker 6: the right wing talk shows like Colman Hughes and others.
Speaker 6: Benny Marris said, and now I'm quoting the idea of
Speaker 6: transfer or expulsion. The idea of transfer was in built
Speaker 6: and inevitable in Zionism. Okay, now it happens. I wrote
Speaker 6: my doctoral dissertation on Zionism. I know about the subject,
Speaker 6: but I never beit the labored the terminology because sometimes
Speaker 6: I think it afu skates the critical facts rather than
Speaker 6: enlightening them, sort of like nowadays when Palestinian supporters talk
Speaker 6: about settler colonialism. I don't find this kind of terminology enlightening.
Speaker 6: I think it obscures more than enlightens. But as a
Speaker 6: factual matter, as Benny Maherars said, the idea of transfer
Speaker 6: or expulsion was inbuilt and inevitable in Zionism. Okay, and
Speaker 6: so the indigenous population of Palestine. The hour later they
Speaker 6: came to define themselves as Palestinian.
Speaker 4: But the our Palestinian.
Speaker 6: Population of Palestine naturally revolted against that prospect. In fact,
Speaker 6: Bending Morris writes, remember he's now a right wing historian,
Speaker 6: but Bending Morris writes that the driving force, the motor
Speaker 6: force of opposition to Zionism, was the prospect that the
Speaker 6: indigenous population was going to be expelled if this idea
Speaker 6: were realized. Now skipping far ahead, and not to tilt
Speaker 6: the scale in my direction, but just to bring us
Speaker 6: to an end before this one question, he consumes your
Speaker 6: whole program.
Speaker 4: Come nineteen forty eight, a war breaks out. I'm not
Speaker 4: going to talk about who's right and who's wrong in
Speaker 4: the course of the war. But now, as Ben David Bengreen.
Speaker 6: The first Prime Minister of the State of Israel, said,
Speaker 6: he quoted the famous French expression, which he still quoted
Speaker 6: when in war, do as in war, namely, here is
Speaker 6: a prospect. Now we have the opportunity to realize Asie
Speaker 6: in his dream. And the population from the area that
Speaker 6: became Israel, a ninety percent of the population from the
Speaker 6: area that became Israel was expelled, exactly what you would
Speaker 6: expect given what the ideology was, and an opportunity now
Speaker 6: availed itself, and they became the Palestinian refugees. So now
Speaker 6: Bill Maher says, well, basically, he says, it's a done deal.
Speaker 4: Get over it. I'm not going to.
Speaker 6: Pass a judgment on that, now, you know, Crystal. And
Speaker 6: if you if you don't mind, I'd rather look at
Speaker 6: you than I look at myself, because I'm more more
Speaker 6: concerned about persuading you than persuading myself. I'm already persuaded,
Speaker 6: and body language is sometimes indicative, So I would like
Speaker 6: to look at you and where I see you're demurring,
Speaker 6: I'll stop and we'll continue. So he says, basically, get
Speaker 6: over it, now, you know, Crystal. Let's say you were
Speaker 6: fired for a job wrongly. What do you expect your
Speaker 6: friends to do? Do you expect them to support you,
Speaker 6: or do you expect them saying Crystal, get over it.
Speaker 3: I would hope they would support me, exactly.
Speaker 6: So there is an obligation, a kind of moral obligation
Speaker 6: among those not directly the victim, to support those to
Speaker 6: the extent there to rectify or wrong. That's to me
Speaker 6: a moral responsibility. And then you might come to the conclusion,
Speaker 6: you know what, this is going nowhere, and I hope
Speaker 6: this person understands it's going nowhere and move on.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 6: The fact of the matter is, and I have to
Speaker 6: tell you I watched the Bill Maher segment this morning
Speaker 6: and several times I have to just, you know, take
Speaker 6: a breath because he's such an ignorant sack of shit.
Speaker 6: It just nauseates me when I'm listening to this. He
Speaker 6: hasn't a clue what the history is. He really doesn't
Speaker 6: know anything. This is the reason Bill Maher doesn't want
Speaker 6: kids to go to college. He says, it's a waste
Speaker 6: of time. Yeah, in college, you learned that before you
Speaker 6: speak your mind, you should actually.
Speaker 4: Know a few facts.
Speaker 6: There's supposed to read books, not just have note cards
Speaker 6: passed to you. So what are the facts and I'm
Speaker 6: perfectly willing now to say to Bill Maher to his face,
Speaker 6: if you disagree with me, have me on your program,
Speaker 6: Have me on your program, and we'll go through it
Speaker 6: step by step. Already as early as nineteen seventy six. Now,
Speaker 6: if I'm not mistaken, you were probably born around that time.
Speaker 3: A little bit later, but yes.
Speaker 6: Okay later. So before you were born, and I'd like
Speaker 6: you to sort of let that sink in. You were
Speaker 6: an adult woman already, you have children. I'm talking about
Speaker 6: before you were born. Already in nineteen seventy six, the
Speaker 6: Palestine Liberation Organization, which at that point was the Representative
Speaker 6: organization the palest Indian people, was supporting two states in
Speaker 6: the June nineteen sixty seven border. They were supporting the compromise.
Speaker 6: They were already giving up before you were born. The
Speaker 6: Representative Organization of the Palestinians universally recognized the po They already.
Speaker 4: Were ready to compromise. They gave up. And I hope
Speaker 4: this will sink into the minds of your listeners.
Speaker 6: It's impossible that they will sink into the mind of
Speaker 6: Bill Maher because there isn't a mind. There's a blank
Speaker 6: space that's filled in with desperate attempts at being clever
Speaker 6: and funny for his paid listeners, but for everybody else.
Speaker 6: Before you were born, the Palestinians had already compromised.
Speaker 4: They had already moved on.
Speaker 6: They had given up on eighty percent of Palestine, the
Speaker 6: area that became the state of Israel, and they had
Speaker 6: resigned themselves, reconciled themselves to the prospect of a state
Speaker 6: just on the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and the
Speaker 6: Gaza Strip, but the whole area that became Israel.
Speaker 4: Before you were born, they had acquiesced in that reality.
Speaker 4: Now there is a question about the.
Speaker 6: Fate and future of the Palestinian refugees, those who were expelled,
Speaker 6: And I will grant because I am an old fashioned
Speaker 6: believer in truth, and as a radical, I like to
Speaker 6: quote the better part of the radical tradition that says
Speaker 6: the truth is revolutionary.
Speaker 4: Namely, there is no contradiction between the truth and.
Speaker 6: Having revolutionary or radical aspirations.
Speaker 4: So I'm not afraid of the truth.
Speaker 6: It's not like truth is the enemy of revolution or
Speaker 6: truth is the enemy of a radical trend information.
Speaker 4: Of our society and our world.
Speaker 6: So it is true that this refugee question has been
Speaker 6: a great area. But if you look at all the negotiations,
Speaker 6: and I studied it very closely, and virtually not virtually,
Speaker 6: in all the negotiations, it was clear that the Palestinians
Speaker 6: were willing to, or their representative organizations were willing to
Speaker 6: make drastic, colossal compromises on the question of the return
Speaker 6: of the Palestinian refugees. So any honest reckoning of the
Speaker 6: factual record will show you that the Palestinians had already compromised,
Speaker 6: had already given up the aspirations of one state from
Speaker 6: the river to the sea. Now, if there were any doubts,
Speaker 6: just let me give you a few examples. So in
Speaker 6: the nineteen eighties, we're now going ahead, Okay, we're going
Speaker 6: from nineteen seventy six to in the early nineteen eighties,
Speaker 6: the Palestinians were making it very clear they were ready
Speaker 6: to compromise on two states in.
Speaker 4: His Dark Palestine.
Speaker 6: Their state would only compromise constitute twenty percent. The Israelis
Speaker 6: began to panic because they were afraid that international public opinion.
Speaker 4: Would force them to relinquish control of.
Speaker 6: The West Bank and Gaza, which they were determined to keep.
Speaker 6: And so in Israeli. An Israeli political scientist. His name
Speaker 6: is Avner Yanive very mainstream fellow. He since passed. I'm
Speaker 6: sure I think I'm the only one still alive everyway
Speaker 6: everybody the He said, what the Israelis feared, and I'd
Speaker 6: like this expession hopefully to sink into the minds of
Speaker 6: your listeners as well. What the Israelis feared was the
Speaker 6: Palestinian Peace Offensive. The Palestinian Peace Offensive. They were terrified
Speaker 6: that the Palestinians were becoming too moderate and therefore pressure
Speaker 6: will be exerted by the international community to forest on
Speaker 6: Israel It's withdrawal from the West Bank and Gaza to
Speaker 6: its pre June nineteen sixty seven borders.
Speaker 4: So what did Israel do?
Speaker 6: Israel fabricated in June nineteen eighty two and excuse to
Speaker 6: invade Lebanon. Why did the one to invade Lebanon because
Speaker 6: that's where the PLO was located at the time. They
Speaker 6: representative Palestinian organization. They wanted to distrude the PLO, not
Speaker 6: because it was radical, not because it wanted to create
Speaker 6: a state from the river to the sea. They wanted
Speaker 6: to destroy the PLO because it was too moderate. A
Speaker 6: Palestinian peace offensive, okay, And in the course of that
Speaker 6: attempt to liquidate the excessively moderate PLO, Israel killed between
Speaker 6: fifteen and twenty thousand Palestinian and Lebanese overwhelmingly civilians. As
Speaker 6: a matter of fact, this last Israeli genocide in Gaza,
Speaker 6: it's for the first time exceeded the amount of death
Speaker 6: and destruction since the Lebanon War in nineteen eighty two.
Speaker 6: People already have completely forgotten.
Speaker 4: And what was the care the war?
Speaker 6: Why is real kill fifteen to twenty thousand Palestinian Lebanese
Speaker 6: overwhelmingly civilians, Because and Bill Maher, I'll be happy to
Speaker 6: come on your program, take out Avner Yannig's book and
Speaker 6: shove it in front of your face. Now, I know
Speaker 6: that will be torture. I understand that will be torture.
Speaker 6: Not the phrase, but having to look at the book.
Speaker 6: Having to look at the book. Now, I'm maybe you
Speaker 6: think you're protected under the Eighth Amendment against Cruel and
Speaker 6: Unusual punishment.
Speaker 4: Okay, we'll go through that in court.
Speaker 6: But yes, the Palestinian peace offensive now come nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 6: the Palestinians absolutely despairing of ever ending this occupation of
Speaker 6: their lens. They went into a civil revolt. It was
Speaker 6: called the Intafadom. Okay, here's a side note for you
Speaker 6: and Crystal. I like you. I know you're a good listener,
Speaker 6: and I know you you sucking information and I appreciate that.
Speaker 6: I saw you with Robert Candy. It was a good show.
Speaker 6: There's no question about that. You came up with arguments
Speaker 6: I wouldn't have come up at the spur of the moment.
Speaker 4: It was good. It's very good.
Speaker 6: You and Brianna represent the new Brianna joy Ray represent
Speaker 6: a new generation, a generation that's not afraid of the
Speaker 6: label anti Semite. Even though RFK kept trying to use
Speaker 6: that particular weapon in his arsenal, you didn't recoil.
Speaker 4: You persisted. It's a new generation. I mean my generation.
Speaker 6: You were terrified of doing what you did, terrified because
Speaker 6: of the charge of anti Semitism and then the practical repercussions.
Speaker 3: You were another terrified norm I wasn't.
Speaker 6: Terrified, but you know, I don't have physical courage, but
Speaker 6: I have moral Richard. I will never say something I
Speaker 6: don't believe it's not possible. I got that from my parents,
Speaker 6: and I will take that to my grave. In any event,
Speaker 6: So in nineteen eighty seventh, December seventh, nineteen eighty seven,
Speaker 6: nom Chomsky's birthday or December eighth, some people say December
Speaker 6: eighth my birthdays. So in any event, the first into
Speaker 6: Father the civil revolt.
Speaker 4: Literally, it's the our book word for when the dog.
Speaker 6: Shakes off its fleece at the quiesce in Palestinian people
Speaker 6: for so long and now shaking off their flees and
Speaker 6: going into civil vow.
Speaker 4: I know I'm digressing the lot, but it's actually relevant
Speaker 4: when you hear.
Speaker 6: You know, the claim was made against the College presidents
Speaker 6: during the hearings in Congress that the phrase into fad
Speaker 6: into fada means genocide, and they say, into father, into fada,
Speaker 6: the only solution is revolution, okay, And in fact it
Speaker 6: was a civil revolte.
Speaker 4: I lived there at the time.
Speaker 6: I was there every summer from nineteen eighty eight to
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety five, every single summer. Everybody knew I was Jewish.
Speaker 6: Everybody knew I was Jewish, and the only ones I fear.
Speaker 6: I'm not trying to make jokes. I mean I have
Speaker 6: a sense of humor. But as Ecclesiastes says, there's a
Speaker 6: time and place for everything. Now is not the time
Speaker 6: for humor. The only one I was afraid of was
Speaker 6: the Israeli army. It was very scary, you know. They
Speaker 6: were killing with abandon during that civil revolt.
Speaker 4: There were times and I was in my apartment.
Speaker 6: At night because I lived with Palestinian families in Bagshores,
Speaker 6: is right outside Bethlehem, and for our refugee camp. Right,
Speaker 6: it's for our refugee camp, and It'sraeli army invaded at
Speaker 6: light at night, came.
Speaker 4: Into my apartment.
Speaker 6: I was completely terrified, and there were roades you don't
Speaker 6: want to travel down because the settlers were throwing these stones.
Speaker 4: But no, I wasn't afraid for s Channa side.
Speaker 6: The people are so wonderful, so forthcoming, so generous, even
Speaker 6: Hamas numbers. No, I have to admit there was some
Speaker 6: concern with how much at the time when I find
Speaker 6: out that was Jewish in any event, come November nineteen
Speaker 6: eighty eight, Yes, Sir Arafat, I.
Speaker 4: Mean I have to laugh, how stupid Bill Maher is.
Speaker 6: Really he's joy Behar, He's joy Behar without the drag.
Speaker 6: November nineteen eighty eight, Arafat formerly, oh, I should say,
Speaker 6: because I use these terms like everybody knows the head
Speaker 6: of the PLO at the time, Yes Araba. He formally
Speaker 6: declares the Palestinian state, calls for Palestinian state on the
Speaker 6: June nineteen sixty seven border, a twesdtate solution. That's just
Speaker 6: a commonplace piece of knowledge. Anybody who knows anything about
Speaker 6: the subject knows. November nineteen eighty eight, he declares for
Speaker 6: two states, and he felt that I don't want to
Speaker 6: get into all the dynamics, but people are willing to
Speaker 6: compromise from a position of strength, not from a position
Speaker 6: of weakness. That's just the nature of politics. Because from
Speaker 6: a position of weakness, do you feel like, well, if
Speaker 6: I'm not going to get anything, why not ask for
Speaker 6: the whole thing? Because it makes no difference if I
Speaker 6: can't hope to get half a loaf. If I can't
Speaker 6: hope for half a loaf, then might not ask for
Speaker 6: the whole oath? Right In November nineteen eighty eight, it
Speaker 6: was during the First Into Father and it didn't make
Speaker 6: a nap. It did become a global issue the First
Speaker 6: Into Father. It did seriously dent Israel's public relations image.
Speaker 4: Because I'll tell you I was teaching at that time, and.
Speaker 6: I remember one student who was neither pro Palestinian nor
Speaker 6: pro Israeli whatever.
Speaker 4: Those terms meaning. They're just hope me stupid.
Speaker 6: He said one day in class, he said like this,
Speaker 6: the Palestinian Civil Revolt was famous. What was called for
Speaker 6: throwing stones, you know, throwing And he said like this
Speaker 6: in class, Stone, he held up his handing a stone Uzi.
Speaker 6: That was the known Israeli weapon. He's sort of the
Speaker 6: brand of Israel, the Uzzi stone Uzi. That's not fair,
Speaker 6: that's what he said, Stone, I remember you those thirty
Speaker 6: years ago, more than thirty years ago, Stone, And that
Speaker 6: was the image that was being communicated transmitted internationally. So
Speaker 6: Israel was facing a major pr problem and our fact
Speaker 6: from a position of strength, because he thought he could
Speaker 6: win something. Now that the civil that the civil revolt
Speaker 6: had shifted international public the opinion, he thought he could
Speaker 6: win something, and he announced for formally, publicly, unambiguously, two
Speaker 6: states on the June nineteen sixty seventh border.
Speaker 4: Now come.
Speaker 6: Nineteen ninety three, the civil revolt was effectively repressed by
Speaker 6: the Israelis. They were very brutal in their repression of it,
Speaker 6: and Arafat entered from a position.
Speaker 4: Of weakness, not strength, what came to be.
Speaker 6: Called the Oslo a Cord, and basically what the Oslo
Speaker 6: Court was. It said, we recognize Israel, meaning Yasir Arafat,
Speaker 6: we recognize the.
Speaker 4: State of Israel. And it's June nineteen sixty seven border.
Speaker 6: All of that forgotten by Bill Maher, who's so clever,
Speaker 6: he's so smart, with his factoid supplied to him by
Speaker 6: the Israeli councilors. The Oslo Court has vanished, and he says,
Speaker 6: and what the Palestinians get in return will Actually they've
Speaker 6: got nothing in return because he was negotiating from a
Speaker 6: position of weakness at that point, ara Eva. What he
Speaker 6: got was a promise that we'll figure out what to
Speaker 6: do sometime in the future. It was supposed to be
Speaker 6: five years what was called the interim period, and the
Speaker 6: five years past and got nothing. I have already gone
Speaker 6: through in a previous show what happened in two thousand
Speaker 6: where Hillary Clinton's imagine she got carried away. So I'm
Speaker 6: not going to not that she's ever been very well. Yeah,
Speaker 6: a certain point in her life she's actually decent, but
Speaker 6: her memory is now very selective to the extended that
Speaker 6: ever makes any connection with reality. But the bottom line
Speaker 6: from the period afterwards. Now we have a very simple
Speaker 6: way of testing who is and who isn't or which
Speaker 6: side is on which side isn't willing to compromise on
Speaker 6: this question. I would say we have an unequivocal record,
Speaker 6: and the record is this, And I would help your
Speaker 6: viewers who have an interest in the subject, would simply
Speaker 6: go and check out what them have to say every
Speaker 6: year for about two decades, and about two decades, maybe
Speaker 6: a little more every year, let's just check that.
Speaker 4: You'll allow me.
Speaker 7: I I have it.
Speaker 6: Okay, No, Actually it's from nineteen ninety seven. So if
Speaker 6: I can ask you in my book Gaza An Inquest
Speaker 6: into its Marden, turn to page.
Speaker 4: Twenty eight.
Speaker 3: Okay, okay.
Speaker 4: Now the United.
Speaker 6: Nations General Assembly, based on international law.
Speaker 4: Can I look at you again?
Speaker 6: I find it troubling looking at myself because it becomes
Speaker 6: a distraction.
Speaker 4: Thank you.
Speaker 6: Every year the United Nations General Assembly, it's contrived a
Speaker 6: resolution terms for resolving the conflict. As the title of
Speaker 6: the resolution, it says peaceful resolution of the Question of Palestine,
Speaker 6: and its resolution is based on international law. The international
Speaker 6: law recognizes the state of Israel. That's not a quarrel
Speaker 6: an international law. It's a member of state of the
Speaker 6: United Nations. As a member of state of the United Nations,
Speaker 6: it has the same rights and do thees rights and
Speaker 6: obligations as any other state. So the General Assembly contrives
Speaker 6: a resolution based on all the elements of international law.
Speaker 6: I would stress that the International Court of Justice itself
Speaker 6: in two thousand and four, July two thousand and four,
Speaker 6: it made a determination on all the critical questions bearing
Speaker 6: on the question of Palestine. So this resolution is a
Speaker 6: synthesis of the opinion of the General Assembly on the
Speaker 6: one hand and the International Court.
Speaker 4: Of Justice on the other hand.
Speaker 6: Okay, the supreme political body in the world and the
Speaker 6: supreme legal body in the world. All right, supreme and
Speaker 6: most representatives. So if you look at the voting record,
Speaker 6: I know, Bill Marvis is going to be very painful.
Speaker 6: I recognize it's a printed document and having to go
Speaker 6: through a printed document may constitutes torment.
Speaker 4: And torture for you. But if you go through the
Speaker 4: printed document, I have here the lineup of how did
Speaker 4: the world vote on.
Speaker 6: This compromised resolution based on international law? Because Bill Maher says,
Speaker 6: the Palestinians don't want to compromise. The Parestonians are so
Speaker 6: stubborn in trying to return to the past, and why
Speaker 6: can't they just get over it? Okay, they want from
Speaker 6: the river to the sea. They want to return to
Speaker 6: the status quo Anti nineteen forty seven. Well, this resolution
Speaker 6: calls for two states on the June nineteen sixty seven
Speaker 6: border in accordance with international law and all the other
Speaker 6: aspects of international law. Time doesn't allow me to go
Speaker 6: through each one, though, if you ask me, I'm happy
Speaker 6: to go through it. So let's look at the voting
Speaker 6: record nineteen ninety seven. So the record is the number
Speaker 6: of states who vote for it, those who upstained, and
Speaker 6: those who oppose or she said, excuse me, the number
Speaker 6: of states who vote for it, the number who are
Speaker 6: posed it, and the number of abstensions. Okay, what was
Speaker 6: nineteen ninety seven?
Speaker 1: We had one hundred and fifty five yes, two no,
Speaker 1: and three abstained.
Speaker 4: Right. Who are the two no?
Speaker 3: That would be Israel in the United States of America.
Speaker 6: Okay, So who is it that's the obstacle to peace?
Speaker 6: Is it the world or is it the United States
Speaker 6: and Israel. Let's look at two thousand and one, or
Speaker 6: you know what you do it you choose arbitraity because
Speaker 6: I have every year, choose a day, choose a year.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean every year.
Speaker 1: It's basically, you know, everybody in the world against Israel,
Speaker 1: the US and a few of our close allies.
Speaker 3: So for example, and we're.
Speaker 4: Not even their allies.
Speaker 1: Yes, the Islands two thousand and six, it's one hundred
Speaker 1: and fifty seven yes, is seven Nos ten abstained the
Speaker 1: nose were Israel, the US, Australia, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru,
Speaker 1: and Palau.
Speaker 4: Two thousand and eight. What's the vote?
Speaker 1: One sixty four yes, seven to no three abstained The
Speaker 1: knows are Israel, US, Australia, the same group, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Apollo.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 6: But a coin to Bill, a coint to Bill bar
Speaker 6: it's those stubborn Palestinians for are the obstacle to resolve
Speaker 6: in the conflict.
Speaker 1: I wanted to ask you because this has been a persistent,
Speaker 1: I think mythology in American politics, American media with you know,
Speaker 1: and a lot of Americans have bought into this mythology
Speaker 1: that the Israelis are deeply interested in peace. They want
Speaker 1: a peaceful settlement. This goes back to the conversation we
Speaker 1: had where Hillary Clinton says, you know, it was all
Speaker 1: there on the table for Yaser Arafat and he walks away.
Speaker 1: And this is repeated routinely by any number of the
Speaker 1: political media class. There are some interesting comments recently from
Speaker 1: BB Nannyahu which should surprise no one, but still would
Speaker 1: land as shocking, I think to a lot of the
Speaker 1: American public. If we could put this up on this
Speaker 1: green guys, this is the fourth tear sheet that we have.
Speaker 1: I'm proud of blocked to Palestine state looking at Gaza.
Speaker 1: Everyone sees what would have happened. And what I was
Speaker 1: curious about with you, norm is, first of all, you know,
Speaker 1: were you surprised that he made those comments so nakedly?
Speaker 1: And second of all, do you think that some of
Speaker 1: this mythology surrounding who the quote unquote partner for peace
Speaker 1: is and who has been the primary obstacle to peace
Speaker 1: may break down with the American public.
Speaker 4: I can't say I'm surprised.
Speaker 6: Look, Benjamin Natanielle is the longest sitting prime minister in
Speaker 6: Israeli history, he's as representative of Israeli opinion as anybody
Speaker 6: ever has been in Israeli history. If he keeps winning,
Speaker 6: it's because even despite all the scandals, it is because
Speaker 6: people when they see Benjamin Nataniello in the Israelians, when
Speaker 6: they see Benjamin Thatano, they see themselves. He's a representative
Speaker 6: of Israeli public opinion, an Israeli public opinion. It's true,
Speaker 6: it's shifted. Uh, there's no longer a veneer in Israeli
Speaker 6: society of being civilized.
Speaker 4: It's shifted to the far right.
Speaker 2: Uh.
Speaker 4: You could say in.
Speaker 6: Israel nowadays there's a right, there's a far right, and
Speaker 6: there's an ultra right.
Speaker 4: There's no center. No.
Speaker 6: You take the other day, I was debating to the
Speaker 6: extent that was debated, uh Alan Dershowitz and the peer
Speaker 6: Pierce Morgan program, and he says that natan Yahoo, he's
Speaker 6: not going to be an office because Pierce Morgan made
Speaker 6: the same point as you just made. Is against a
Speaker 6: Fata land. He's a Fata meaning the main secular Palestinian faction.
Speaker 6: He's against the Hamas land. He's against anything. And Dershwitz,
Speaker 6: who likes to pretend he supports a Tuesday settlement.
Speaker 4: He said, well, he's not going to be prime minister.
Speaker 6: It's probably going to be a national coalition after Netanyahu,
Speaker 6: and he had guns, the solo Guns is going to
Speaker 6: be the new head of state. Yeah, who is guns?
Speaker 4: Guns?
Speaker 6: Was the chief of staff during Operation Protective Edge in
Speaker 6: twenty fourteen where Israel killed about twenty two hundred people
Speaker 6: in Gaza, destroyed eighteen thousand homes.
Speaker 4: And when he ran for office, when he ran against
Speaker 4: Natan Yahu, do you know what then how he ran?
Speaker 6: He ran on a video showing the destruction of Gazam Wow,
Speaker 6: Judeo was a video and boasting that was his achievement,
Speaker 6: that he had level of gozip And this was this
Speaker 6: was the person who Professor Dershowitz was talenting as being
Speaker 6: more humane and reasonable than Benjamin Netanyahu.
Speaker 4: That's in the Israeli position.
Speaker 6: Now let's be clear, and here you have to have
Speaker 6: I don't like the words so much very much, but okay,
Speaker 6: I'll use it. You have to be attentive to nuances
Speaker 6: and nuances and subtleties. It is true that when Israel
Speaker 6: was under a what's called a labor government or a
Speaker 6: roughly labor government. Quote unquote left wing.
Speaker 4: There are more forthcoming than the current leadership.
Speaker 6: As I said, is the shift the spectrum has shifted
Speaker 6: Israel as an ultra right society. It's actually, to my knowledge,
Speaker 6: I could be wrong. I always admit to the possibility
Speaker 6: of error. It's very unique in the world because in
Speaker 6: other countries you have ultra right. Let's say take Brazil,
Speaker 6: you have characters like both scenario okay, an ultra right figure,
Speaker 6: but the societies are generally divided between an ultra right
Speaker 6: and a left. So for a teaching both scenario supporter,
Speaker 6: you have a Ulah supporter. There is a real solid opposition.
Speaker 6: There's no opposition in Israel. There's a right, there's a
Speaker 6: far right, and there's an ultra right. There's no left.
Speaker 6: Nobody talks about a left candidate coming into into power
Speaker 6: in Israel. Right, So it is true that labor was
Speaker 6: under the so called left. In Israel, there were more forthcoming.
Speaker 4: I won't deny that. My predom and life never quarrel effects.
Speaker 4: I won't deny that.
Speaker 6: But we have to be clear that no government in Israel,
Speaker 6: no government in Israel, has ever accepted the international consensus,
Speaker 6: the legal consensus for resolving the conflict.
Speaker 4: So when you were reading off that list, bear.
Speaker 6: In mind that was during the period, because we're going
Speaker 6: back to nineteen ninety seven's.
Speaker 4: From a period where the so called peace nick Yitshak Rabin. Okay,
Speaker 4: he was assassinated in nineteen ninety.
Speaker 6: Five, but his successors they were in power, right, and
Speaker 6: they always whether it.
Speaker 4: Was labor, the peacenicks, or could the warhooks across the spectrum,
Speaker 4: they all oppose the legal consensus. Mister mar.
Speaker 6: I'm not talking about the PLO program. I'm talking about
Speaker 6: the International Court of Justice. Fifteen judges, fifteen justices. No,
Speaker 6: the International Court Justice, they're called judges. I'm the fifteen judges.
Speaker 6: Even the American judge, his name is Bergen. At the
Speaker 6: those name was Burgendale. Even he said there can be
Speaker 6: no question under international law that Israeli settlements in the
Speaker 6: West Bank are illegal under international law. All fifteen Now,
Speaker 6: no Israeli government, none has ever entertained the possibility of
Speaker 6: eliminating the settlements that were illegally planted in Israel.
Speaker 4: Not the labor, not the la could not the left,
Speaker 4: not the right. Now here's the kicker. Now brace yourself
Speaker 4: for this.
Speaker 6: This is the Palestinians who won't compromise, Who are the
Speaker 6: obstacle to resolving the conflict? You sick sack of shit,
Speaker 6: mister mamaer, whatever your name is, you six sack of shit.
Speaker 6: If you look at the negotiations, the Palestines offered to
Speaker 6: let sixty percent of the settlements remain in place. Sixty
Speaker 6: percent of the settlements remain in place. They were presenting maps.
Speaker 6: We have the maps, and the maps show that according
Speaker 6: to where you draw the border, sixty percent of the
Speaker 6: illegal Israeli settlements would remain in place. The Palestinians on
Speaker 6: the settlements compromise, even though under international law they were illegal,
Speaker 6: including the judgment of Bergen Judge Bergen Voul and the
Speaker 6: ICJ and the International Court of Justice, they were willing
Speaker 6: to compromise.
Speaker 4: The question of the.
Speaker 6: Refugees right now, according to the official count, there are
Speaker 6: about six million refugees. The Palestinians who are willing to
Speaker 6: accept a figure in the hundreds of thousands returning back
Speaker 6: maybe something like I have to admit, you know, there's
Speaker 6: gray area here, but you could say, roughly, if you
Speaker 6: look at the figures that were thrown around, maybe half
Speaker 6: a million to return okay.
Speaker 4: On the question of borders.
Speaker 6: Palestinians were willing to rewrite the border so long as
Speaker 6: they got in exchange equal sized lat what they're called landslaps,
Speaker 6: had to be of equal size, had to be of
Speaker 6: equal quality. So we're not giving up the best arable
Speaker 6: land in the West Bank. So you're going to give
Speaker 6: us some desert in the south of Hebron. So it
Speaker 6: had to be roughly equal size and.
Speaker 4: Quality. But we'll rewrite the border.
Speaker 6: We're willing to rewrite the border, make minor border adjustments
Speaker 6: to account for facts on the ground since nineteen sixty seven,
Speaker 6: and they even made some compromises on Jerusalem, even though
Speaker 6: under international law, Jerusalem East Jerusalem is occupied Palestinian territory
Speaker 6: because it was acquired during the June nineteen sixty seven war,
Speaker 6: and therefore, as occupied.
Speaker 4: Territory it belongs to the Palestinians. Israel has no title.
Speaker 6: To territory it acquired in the course of the war.
Speaker 6: That's international law. So across the board, if you go
Speaker 6: through it, they were willing to make compromises on the
Speaker 6: basis of the UN resolution. They were willing to accept less.
Speaker 6: They were willing to accept less than the un resolution. Now,
Speaker 6: if there's any question, if there's any question, it's very simple.
Speaker 6: Why is the whole world on one side, the whole
Speaker 6: world and the United States, Israel, and the South Pacific atolls.
Speaker 4: On the other side? Why is that? Are they all
Speaker 4: anti submitted? Now?
Speaker 6: The other day I saw an interview with Professor Dershowitz
Speaker 6: and fellow from Al Jazeera. Very intelligent young men. He
Speaker 6: didn't know all the facts, but he knew enough.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 6: So he starts quoting something from UNICEF. Professor Dershowett says,
Speaker 6: they're pro hamas. He says, quotes something from UNESCO. There
Speaker 6: pro hamas. Then he quotes something from Human Rights Watch.
Speaker 6: Their pro hamas. Then he quotes Greta Thurnberg from the
Speaker 6: Climate Change Mum, she's pro hamas. At this point. At
Speaker 6: this point, the interlocular, the U Katari fellow. He said, Professor,
Speaker 6: is there anyone in the world who's not pro hamas
Speaker 6: except for Israel? And you?
Speaker 4: That's Bill mah No.
Speaker 6: You may think it's funny, but that's Bill Maher. You see,
Speaker 6: according to Bill Maher, all the countries in the world
Speaker 6: except for the United States and Israel, all the countries
Speaker 6: in the world and all the justices in the International
Speaker 6: Court of Justice. They must all be well, not pro Hamas,
Speaker 6: but pro Palestinian. There wasn't even Ahamas at this time,
Speaker 6: really right, not no politically significant h huh. They must
Speaker 6: all be pro Palestinian the whole world or anti submitted.
Speaker 6: The whole world must be anti submitted. On the International
Speaker 6: Court of Justice at the time, there was a woman,
Speaker 6: the British judge named Rosalind Higgins.
Speaker 4: She went with the majority.
Speaker 6: On the ICJ, there was Bergenval who calls himself a
Speaker 6: Holocaust survivor. He's just passed, obviously Jewish. He went overwhelmingly
Speaker 6: with the majority. There are a couple of points not
Speaker 6: worth going into where he had differences. But everybody in
Speaker 6: the world must be a spoiler. They must all be
Speaker 6: like the Palestinians. They must be guard to Bill mahk
Speaker 6: that the Palestinians are the obstacles.
Speaker 4: But the Palestinians were willing to compromise even.
Speaker 6: More, even more than what the United Nations General Assembly and.
Speaker 4: The ICJ said legally they were entitled to.
Speaker 1: Well, normal, I want to get to Anail also took
Speaker 1: an interest in the interview that we had with presidential
Speaker 1: candidate RFK Junior, where he made a variety of claims.
Speaker 1: I pulled two different clips that I wanted to get
Speaker 1: you to respond to because they both elements that you know,
Speaker 1: I haven't just heard from him. These are things that
Speaker 1: I hear repeated rather often. The first one has to
Speaker 1: deal with his assertion that, you know, the Palestinians I'm
Speaker 1: paraphrasing here, will let him say it himself, but essentially,
Speaker 1: the Palestinians are so bad that even the neighboring Arab
Speaker 1: states like Egypt didn't want them.
Speaker 3: Let's take a listen to that piece.
Speaker 1: So President Biden's administration, they have said that they have
Speaker 1: no red lines for the State of Israel and their
Speaker 1: conduct in this war. Do you have any red lines
Speaker 1: for Israel?
Speaker 8: Well, you know the red lines are they?
Speaker 4: You know, you don't deliver.
Speaker 8: You do everything you can, which I think Israel is
Speaker 8: doing right to avoid civilian casually. You know, there's collateral
Speaker 8: damage in every war, and they're fighting an implacable anime.
Speaker 8: I mean, I don't think there's any country in the
Speaker 8: world that would go as far as Israel has gone
Speaker 8: to not invade guys. I mean, Israel was being bombed
Speaker 8: by Amas took over God and Israel.
Speaker 4: Walked out of God. There's no occupation of God.
Speaker 8: Well, there's a black hate because because God, because Hamas
Speaker 8: declared war on Israel and said suicide bombers off. So
Speaker 8: they put up a fence so that it's there. You know,
Speaker 8: that's like a that's like the guy who kills his father,
Speaker 8: his parents and then throws himself on the mercy of
Speaker 8: the court because he is an orphan.
Speaker 4: You know, for them to say that.
Speaker 8: They're black hated, they're black. Yeah, they're black head. And
Speaker 8: it's not just Israel, it's block hating is Egypt. Everybody
Speaker 8: has a problem with a moss.
Speaker 6: You know.
Speaker 8: In fact, the after the seventy three war, after the
Speaker 8: sixty seven war, Israel tried to give a moss back
Speaker 8: the Egypt and Egypt didn't want to take it because
Speaker 8: I mean God, sorry, Gods it back to Egypt. Egypt
Speaker 8: didn't want to take it because of the you know,
Speaker 8: the high level of religious militant.
Speaker 1: Is So I wonder what your response is to that
Speaker 1: last piece, in particular where he asserts, you know, the
Speaker 1: neighboring countries don't want to deal with these people either.
Speaker 1: And so it's not just on Israel, and this is
Speaker 1: illustrative of how magnanimous Israel has been towards the Palestinians.
Speaker 6: Okay, there are three questions there, and I'm going to
Speaker 6: ask you to remember them because my memory is shot.
Speaker 3: Okay, I'll write them down from a.
Speaker 4: Combination of old age and mental exhaustion.
Speaker 6: Since Octoby seven, I'm thinking of going to small claim
Speaker 6: spurt ensuing Hamas for senior citizen abuse because last two
Speaker 6: months have been just the horror in my life. So
Speaker 6: there are three questions that Robert Kennedy raised. Number one
Speaker 6: about Israel doing all you can to avoid civilian casualties.
Speaker 4: Number two, the claim about Israel.
Speaker 6: Having withdrawn from Gaza in two thousand and five, and
Speaker 6: number three the question of Egypt. So, because I respect
Speaker 6: you and I noticed that your last interview with me,
Speaker 6: or one of the last interviews with me, got a
Speaker 6: lot of viewers. And the point is to educate and
Speaker 6: try to persuade, I'm going to say you take I'll
Speaker 6: do this. I'll stay here till the end of time,
Speaker 6: which in my case may not be too long from
Speaker 6: now to clarify these issues. So let's start with the
Speaker 6: Israel's doing everything it can, okay to avoids laying passionties
Speaker 6: first of all, and there have been many comparative studies
Speaker 6: with Israel the number of deaths in gazas compared to
Speaker 6: every other conflict in the past twenty five years in
Speaker 6: this century, and Israel's just in the category all its own.
Speaker 6: Let's just take one example, which would be familiar to
Speaker 6: all of your listeners. You know, I'm going to go
Speaker 6: off in diressions, but I have to because everything is
Speaker 6: really important. I was very angry at Bernie Sanders after
Speaker 6: what happened in October seventh and how.
Speaker 4: He acquitted himself. I was furious. I was furious with
Speaker 4: him on a political level.
Speaker 6: Because I invested a lot in his candidacy, as did
Speaker 6: a large number of young people. And I was also
Speaker 6: disgusted with him. And I'm not trying to play the
Speaker 6: Jewish card, but as a Jew that he had said.
Speaker 6: He didn't boast about it, he wasn't wearing down on
Speaker 6: his shoulder, but he said that.
Speaker 4: You know, a large far.
Speaker 6: Part of his family perished in Poland during the Nazi Holocaust.
Speaker 6: Obviously was reson it was a sensitive court for him.
Speaker 6: And then the state he was making. You know, they
Speaker 6: were just ghastly, ghastly. I was walking around the streets
Speaker 6: cursing him.
Speaker 4: I was so angry.
Speaker 6: But you know, if you'll allow me, I know, these
Speaker 6: seemed like digressions, but everything comes together in my mind,
Speaker 6: and they'll try to bring it together in your mind.
Speaker 4: A long time ago, in our.
Speaker 6: Own country, there were the abolitionists, the white abolitionists who
Speaker 6: fought for the rights of African American people tenn slavery
Speaker 6: and then after to fight for their equal rights in
Speaker 6: the German reconstruction. There was one fellow named William Garrison.
Speaker 6: He was a very famous abolitionist, and after the Civil
Speaker 6: War he opposed giving the rights a vote to black people.
Speaker 6: He said they weren't ready, and he was criticized heavily
Speaker 6: for it. Eventually he changed his mind and he recognized
Speaker 6: he was wrong. And Frederick Douglas writing about Frederick Douglas
Speaker 6: writing about Garrison and the fact that he opposed the
Speaker 6: right to vote and then reversed himself.
Speaker 4: He had a very nice line. Douglas was a brilliant
Speaker 4: stylist writer.
Speaker 6: He said, a man's head will not long remain wrong
Speaker 6: when his heart is right. A man's head will not
Speaker 6: long remain will not long remain wrong when his heart
Speaker 6: is right.
Speaker 4: And that was Bernie.
Speaker 6: I said to my friends, I think he's going to backtrack.
Speaker 6: He's going to backtrack. And then one night I was
Speaker 6: exercising and watching I said, oh, Bernie, unseaspam, let's see
Speaker 6: what a guy has to say. No, And I expected
Speaker 6: the usual, and then suddenly he said, there have been more.
Speaker 4: Civilians killed in Gaza in two months.
Speaker 6: Then have been killed in Ukraine in two years, Ukraine
Speaker 6: in two years. The current figure is ten thousand civilians
Speaker 6: killed in Gaza. It's twenty thousand and two months, two years,
Speaker 6: two months.
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, and that friends from Douglas came to mind.
Speaker 7: A man's if a man's a man's mind cannot be
Speaker 7: long wrong long if his heart is right.
Speaker 6: Robert Kennedy, on the other side, is a complete sleeves bag,
Speaker 6: a sack of shit like Bill Mahr to be saying
Speaker 6: that Israel is doing everything possible. When you look just
Speaker 6: at the number of child deaths in Israel in Gaza,
Speaker 6: it's one hundred and thirty six per day. And the
Speaker 6: next conflict area in the world, the next goes from
Speaker 6: five per day downwards one hundred and thirty six. If
Speaker 6: you look at the barograph, the next conflict is five
Speaker 6: per day going downwards. And this sack of shit is
Speaker 6: revolting opportunists. This genocide apologist, Robert F. Kennedy says they're
Speaker 6: doing everything possible. Fifty percent, fifty percent of all of
Speaker 6: Gaza's civilian infrastructure, houses, factories, fifty percent has been leveled.
Speaker 6: Imagine if you were walking down the street and you're
Speaker 6: going for miles, let's call it twenty seven miles, which
Speaker 6: is Gaza's length, and you discover as you're walking down
Speaker 6: the street, everything to the left of you is flattened.
Speaker 6: Every single building to the left of you for twenty
Speaker 6: seven miles is.
Speaker 4: Now a parking lot.
Speaker 6: You would call that doing everything possible to avoid civilian casualties. Now,
Speaker 6: Human Rights Watch is not, by any stretch of the imagination,
Speaker 6: a radical organization. Okay, it's very mainstream. It issued in
Speaker 6: the past two weeks a couple of reports. One report
Speaker 6: is entitled Gaza unlawful Israeli hospital strikes worse in health crisis.
Speaker 6: Israel has systematically methodically targeted all the hospitals in Gaza
Speaker 6: of thirty two hospitals in Gaza, which we would call
Speaker 6: real hospitals. I talked the other day to doctor Gassan Abusita,
Speaker 6: who knows the medical system in Gaza very well.
Speaker 4: He goes back there during every siege. He's a real hero.
Speaker 4: I told him, you know, don't praise me so I
Speaker 4: don't have your physical courage.
Speaker 6: He was in Al Ali hospital during that attack, and
Speaker 6: then he was in Al Shifa and he said, of
Speaker 6: the thirty two, I asked him, how many hospitals are
Speaker 6: still operative? He said, of the thirty two hospitals four.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 6: Now, there is no example in modern history, none of
Speaker 6: the systematic and methodical targeting of hospitals.
Speaker 4: It doesn't exist.
Speaker 6: That crosses a negative threshold into barbarism, a negative threshold
Speaker 6: into barbarism.
Speaker 4: The targeting of the wounded and the lane, the new born,
Speaker 4: and the near dead.
Speaker 6: That's what hospitals are, and that's what the targeted is.
Speaker 6: Human Rights Watch have to say, quote, Human Rights Watch
Speaker 6: has not been able to corroborate or seen any information
Speaker 6: that would justify attacks on Gaza's hospitals.
Speaker 4: No information that would justify.
Speaker 6: Israel's attack on Gazza's hospitals Now Robert Kennedy talks about
Speaker 6: warning people to leave. What other country with issue warnings
Speaker 6: for them to leave, for example, the hospitals? Okay, what
Speaker 6: does Human Rights Watch say? Those warnings were absolutely meaningless
Speaker 6: because there was nowhere to flee. And how can people
Speaker 6: in hospitals flee here, mister Kennedy, reality check. You know
Speaker 6: why they're in hospitals because they are immobile. That's why
Speaker 6: they're in hospitals. It says that Human Rights Watch is
Speaker 6: concerned that the purpose of these warnings was not to
Speaker 6: protect civilians, but to terrify them into leaving. That's a
Speaker 6: mainstream human rights watch or Human Rights Watch, which is
Speaker 6: a mainstream organization. Quoting again, Israel's broad based attack on
Speaker 6: Gaza's healthcare system is an attack on the sick and
Speaker 6: the injury on babies in incubators. These actions need to
Speaker 6: be investigated as war crimes. But according to Robert Kennedy,
Speaker 6: no other country in the world in the history of
Speaker 6: humankind has ever done more to protect civilians and to
Speaker 6: act discriminately than Israel.
Speaker 4: Look at the numbers. Just look at the numbers. If
Speaker 4: you were to randomly, indiscriminately.
Speaker 6: Attack or target any area on Gazip any area in Gozip,
Speaker 6: you would any area randomly, you would get roughly fifty
Speaker 6: percent would be children, twenty five percent would be women,
Speaker 6: and twenty five percent men roughly. Okay, if you look
Speaker 6: at the actual statistic, what is it. It's forty three
Speaker 6: percent children, about twenty five percent women and twenty five percent.
Speaker 6: Then you know what that means. It means they're being
Speaker 6: targeted indiscriminately. That's why you have those proportions, because that's
Speaker 6: the proportion of that's the proportional breakdown of children, women,
Speaker 6: and men in Gaza. So if you just overlay the
Speaker 6: actual demographic breakdown in Gaza with the casualties in Gaza,
Speaker 6: it's exactly the same. Why because they're indiscriminately being attacked.
Speaker 6: That's why you have those proportions. There's no other conflict
Speaker 6: in the modern world where you have those percentages for
Speaker 6: women and children.
Speaker 3: Not even going.
Speaker 6: Now. Human Rights Watch released another report yesterday about this
Speaker 6: country that's doing everything it can. According to Robert Kennedy
Speaker 6: or Shmuley body a is puppeteer, Israel is doing everything possible.
Speaker 9: Okay, So Israel announced the first week of its assault
Speaker 9: and Gaza it's gonna bar any food, fuel, electricity.
Speaker 4: Or water to enter Gozzam. Now did they say they're
Speaker 4: going to bar a just to Hamas. That's not what
Speaker 4: they said.
Speaker 6: Now, mister Kennedy and your compound, you're Kennedy compound.
Speaker 4: If all the food, fuel, water and electric were turned off.
Speaker 6: And those are blockade, what do you think would happen
Speaker 6: to everybody in your compound?
Speaker 4: How long would they survive? Would they survive? Two months?
Speaker 4: So what does Human Rights Watch say?
Speaker 6: The report issued yesterday December eighteenth, the headline Starvation used
Speaker 6: as weapon of war in Gaza? Starvation used as weapon
Speaker 6: of war in Gaza? What's the first bullet point? The
Speaker 6: Israeli government is using starvation of civilians as a method
Speaker 6: of warfare in the Gaza strip. It's depriving the civilian
Speaker 6: population of objects indispensable to their survival. And then it
Speaker 6: says the people of Gaza are now suffering severe levels
Speaker 6: of hunger. In fact, the World Food Program it stated
Speaker 6: two days ago that fifty percent of God's population as
Speaker 6: we speak, as Bill Laher is making his sick jokes,
Speaker 6: humoring his sick audience of six sacks of shit like
Speaker 6: himself in the middle of that's so funny, and they're
Speaker 6: so uproariously laughing, though I do believe half of the
Speaker 6: people laughing are paying to laugh, but got to side
Speaker 6: from the point, or or got in exchange, you know,
Speaker 6: got tickets in exchange.
Speaker 4: Your problems need to laugh.
Speaker 6: And that moron, he's making all his jokes. Oh, it's
Speaker 6: so funny, it's so funny. You six sack of shit
Speaker 6: that fifty percent of the population of Gaza is starving today. Oh,
Speaker 6: that's so funny, that's so so funny. Just think of
Speaker 6: a nazine in a nightclub or a cabaret in Germany
Speaker 6: making those kinds of jokes while Jews were dying to
Speaker 6: the left and right, dropping like flies in the Warsaw ghetto.
Speaker 4: I remember my mother. My mother never really talked about
Speaker 4: the worst asked. She didn't talk about the concentration campra,
Speaker 4: she didn't.
Speaker 6: What she constantly talked to me about was the hunger, hunger,
Speaker 6: the walking through the ghetto because there were all the
Speaker 6: typhus and the other transmittable diseases. So people were dying
Speaker 6: on the left and the right and walking through and
Speaker 6: she did the pangs of hunger.
Speaker 4: And just imagine a Nazi a Nazi comedian.
Speaker 6: In a cabaret like Bill Maher his horn written glasses,
Speaker 6: thinks he's going to look intelligent by putting on those glasses.
Speaker 6: He suddenly becomes serious making those jokes as half the
Speaker 6: population in gazam is, according to the World Food Program,
Speaker 6: now suffering from starvation, or according to.
Speaker 4: Robert F.
Speaker 6: Kennedy, they're doing everything they can to protect civilians. And
Speaker 6: then they quote, they quote from this country that's doing
Speaker 6: everything they can to protect civilians.
Speaker 4: So here's one quote they quote.
Speaker 6: There are many, there's a long list that Human Rights
Speaker 6: Watch quotes. Here's one from a senior Israeli official in
Speaker 6: the civil administration.
Speaker 4: He says, this is from November fourth.
Speaker 6: Whoever returns to Gaza, if they return here, if they
Speaker 6: return here, will find scorched earth, no houses, no agriculture.
Speaker 4: No nothing. They have no future. Yes, mister Kennedy, Yes,
Speaker 4: mister Kennedy.
Speaker 6: They're doing everything in their power not to kill civilians.
Speaker 4: They're very discriminating. Whoever returns here will.
Speaker 6: Find scorched earth, no houses, no agriculture, no nothing.
Speaker 4: They have no future.
Speaker 3: Wow, norm what about the claim that he made about Egypt.
Speaker 4: Okay, just I'm going to get to the second, and
Speaker 4: they'll get to the Egypt.
Speaker 3: Sure.
Speaker 1: The second was that Israel withdrew from Gaza in two
Speaker 1: thousand and five.
Speaker 6: There's no disputed among them about that, among international among
Speaker 6: international lawyers and international organizations, even Israel's senior expert in
Speaker 6: international law, who's very conservative. You're a dnstin, he said,
Speaker 6: this reel remains an occupying power in gods. It controls everything.
Speaker 6: It controls who goes in, who goes out, what goes in,
Speaker 6: what goes out. It controls the population registry who qualifies
Speaker 6: as being a Gazan. It controls the water ways, It
Speaker 6: controls the airspace and controls the water.
Speaker 4: Just for your listeners, just you listen.
Speaker 6: I just want them to know what it meant, what
Speaker 6: it meant for the people of Gaza, what this blockade
Speaker 6: of Godza meant when Israel no longer controlled it. It's
Speaker 6: not an occupying power, says the lawyer.
Speaker 4: Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Speaker 6: So, at certain points, here is a partial list of
Speaker 6: the things Israel ban from entering Gaza simultaneously, not like
Speaker 6: one of the time, Okay, right, right, then, Sage Coriander Ginger,
Speaker 6: jam Halva Vinegar nutmeg, chocolate, chocolate, fruit preserves, nuts, biscuits,
Speaker 6: potato chips, musical instruments, notebooks, writing implements, toys, chicks, and goats.
Speaker 4: But Gazza is a free country Israel left, says Robert Kennedy.
Speaker 4: Israel doesn't occupy Gaza.
Speaker 6: There was a point where Israel put on people of
Speaker 6: Gaza a humanitarian minimum of calories, humanitarian minimum of calories.
Speaker 4: That means they put the people.
Speaker 6: Of Gaza on a starvation plus diet. But they have
Speaker 6: no responsibility what's going on in Gaza. They withdrew. The
Speaker 6: occupation is over, as I said, As far as I know,
Speaker 6: no international organization or international law specialists claims that the
Speaker 6: occupation ended when Israel. What Israel did was very simple.
Speaker 6: Anybody can understand it. Child can understand it. Israel got
Speaker 6: tired of policing Gazam because they said, there's no future here.
Speaker 6: We have eight thousand settlers. There are two million Gaza
Speaker 6: Arabs here. So we're never going to get rid of
Speaker 6: these Arabs and we'll never be able to do with
Speaker 6: it what we hope to do in the West Bank,
Speaker 6: you know, change the balance of population.
Speaker 4: So just forget it. So you know, what they did,
Speaker 4: they took it. So there are things like in Ghaza.
Speaker 4: Gozms couldn't go to the beach. Okay.
Speaker 6: So they said, we'll throw the keys in the jail
Speaker 6: cells and let them out of the jail cells.
Speaker 4: Okay. And then they withdrew from the jail or the prison.
Speaker 6: They drew from the prison, slammed shut the gates, and
Speaker 6: then encircled.
Speaker 4: The whole prison. Okay.
Speaker 6: Now, yes, the prisoners had more freedom of movement. I'm
Speaker 6: not gonna deny that they now could go to the beach,
Speaker 6: It's true. But they can't go anywhere else. They can't
Speaker 6: go out. Nothing can come in jam, chocolate, nothing, Sage
Speaker 6: Coriander would anyone in his or her right mind describing
Speaker 6: that as Israel left Gaza. What they did was they
Speaker 6: encircled it. They didn't leave Gaza. I'll just give you
Speaker 6: an example. People don't like to hear my examples. Unfortunately,
Speaker 6: my examples don't come from my head. They come from
Speaker 6: the Israeli heads.
Speaker 4: Okay.
Speaker 6: So the head of Israel's National Security Council's name is
Speaker 6: Gira was now was Gira Island.
Speaker 4: You can google it.
Speaker 6: Just go right now, go in front of your computer,
Speaker 6: just google Gio R A and then the last name
Speaker 6: E I, L A N D and then.
Speaker 4: Editor March two thousand and four.
Speaker 6: March two thousand and four, and the document's going to
Speaker 6: come up the first choice.
Speaker 1: The first one is Gaza. The ruin Gaza is a
Speaker 1: huge concentration camp.
Speaker 6: Right Dora Island. If you look at it's item number
Speaker 6: twelve in this numerandum. He was the head of the
Speaker 6: National Security Council Okay of Israel, equivalent of our James Burns,
Speaker 6: the current.
Speaker 4: Head of the CIA.
Speaker 6: So in two thousand and four, two thousand and four,
Speaker 6: this is before the blockade, before the blockade. If you
Speaker 6: go to that item, he describes guys Gouds as quote
Speaker 6: a huge concentration camp, a huge concentration camp. And then
Speaker 6: you hear people saying, there's this young man who had
Speaker 6: got into a long correspondence with I'm not going to
Speaker 6: name them because I don't want to resume that corresponse.
Speaker 6: He keeps saying, God's is a developing country, developing country.
Speaker 4: Nothing can come and nothing can go out.
Speaker 6: It's a huge concentration gamp. It's before the blockade. He
Speaker 6: described it the island as such, so we can dispose
Speaker 6: of that issue, whether or not God's it remains occupying.
Speaker 6: Let's go to the favorite question. Now, I'll tell you,
Speaker 6: I admit and maybe there's I struggle between my political.
Speaker 4: Side and my humanitarian side.
Speaker 6: Now, under international law, Egypt is a sovereign country and
Speaker 6: has the right to decide who comes in and who
Speaker 6: goes out. It's called immigration and immigration. No, they don't
Speaker 6: have the right decide who goes out, but they have
Speaker 6: the right to decide who comes in.
Speaker 4: And there is an entry point, the Rafa crossing between
Speaker 4: Egypt and Gaza.
Speaker 6: Now Egypt's position, I don't defend the Egyptian government. C
Speaker 6: sees a monster. He came to cop power in the
Speaker 6: military coup, and the course of that coup he committed
Speaker 6: the largest massacre of Egyptians in Egyptian history.
Speaker 4: The our well, I can't remember another. Now they'll come
Speaker 4: back to me.
Speaker 6: In any case, you're at least a thousand, maybe as
Speaker 6: many as two thousand, non violent protesters. It's again to power.
Speaker 6: So I'm making no brief for mister c c Right. However,
Speaker 6: there is a real problem here. The problem is, and
Speaker 6: I admit, it's a moral it's a moral dilemma. Once
Speaker 6: you leave, guys that you're not coming back. It's over.
Speaker 6: We know that from Israel's history. We know that from
Speaker 6: the refugees in forty eight, we know that from refugees
Speaker 6: in nineteen sixty seven. Once you're out, it's goodbye. Egypt
Speaker 6: doesn't want to help Israel assist Israel in committing an ethnic.
Speaker 4: Cleansing, So now you have really I consider it. It
Speaker 4: is a dilemma.
Speaker 6: On the one hand, people are being starved to death,
Speaker 6: they're being murdered from the eyes, and they need refuge.
Speaker 4: On the other hand, it's a permanent refuge.
Speaker 6: And so Egypt says it won't facilitate, it won't a bet,
Speaker 6: it won't assist Israel in its ethnic cleansing of Gaza.
Speaker 4: What do you do?
Speaker 6: On the one hand, I say, oh, f politics, these
Speaker 6: people are being killed, these people are being murdered, let
Speaker 6: them go.
Speaker 4: And no. But on the other hand, do you want to.
Speaker 6: Wittingly and unwittingly, because it's at the same time willfully
Speaker 6: and unwilfully assists Israel and ethnic cleansing. I don't think
Speaker 6: that's an easy question. You know, I don't have an
Speaker 6: answer to that. Am I going to start demanding that
Speaker 6: Egypt open its border and let them all pour into that.
Speaker 4: All the people have got support into the Sinai desert.
Speaker 6: No, actually, if I had a choice, I would rather
Speaker 6: demand that Israel stop committing Gennacaie rather than saying open
Speaker 6: up Rapha, I'll say stop committing the Gennacaie.
Speaker 4: If I had to choose between the two.
Speaker 6: And let's be clear about it, Professor Chomsky would always
Speaker 6: distinguished him and his analysis of any world situation was
Speaker 6: he did basically what you did when you talk with
Speaker 6: Robert Kennedy, because you were insistent, because he kept in
Speaker 6: trying to insinuate you're an anti semi why are you
Speaker 6: focusing on Israel? And you kept replying because we're paying
Speaker 6: for the whole thing. And Professor Chomsky would always come
Speaker 6: back to it's our responsibility because we're making it happen. Now,
Speaker 6: let's be clear, and I don't want him there to
Speaker 6: be any doubt about it. As a factual matter, the
Speaker 6: whole thing would end in the United States. If mister
Speaker 6: Biden picked up a phone right now and said stop,
Speaker 6: it would be all over.
Speaker 4: It wouldn't last one second more. If Biden said stop,
Speaker 4: remember it.
Speaker 6: It feels dependent on our arms, and right now it's
Speaker 6: economy has become dysfunctional because there are hundreds of thousands
Speaker 6: of soldiers who are fighting, or they're not really fighting,
Speaker 6: they're committing a massacre of genocide. Who's Israeli society would
Speaker 6: cease the function without the US leaving aside the political
Speaker 6: fallout if the United States went switched to supporting a ceasefire.
Speaker 4: So the whole thing couldn't happen without the US literally
Speaker 4: old by, you know, Biden.
Speaker 6: Biden said, you have to pretend that you're doing some
Speaker 6: humanitarian gestures.
Speaker 4: You know that than forty trucks. Immediately they did it.
Speaker 4: They did it. They knew they had no choice. So
Speaker 4: if you ask me if I had a choice, just
Speaker 4: let me finish. And of course I want to hear
Speaker 4: you if I have a.
Speaker 6: Choice between advocating Egypt opened up Ralpha crossing and saying
Speaker 6: Biden stopped the genocide because.
Speaker 4: It is his genocide. It is his genocide. And Bernie,
Speaker 4: you know it's coming pretty close. It's too late, it's
Speaker 4: too late, or I should say it's too little, but
Speaker 4: it's never too late. You have to be clear about that.
Speaker 4: Half the population is now starving.
Speaker 6: So if it were to end tomorrow and that Bernie
Speaker 6: has joined the bandwagon it has to end tomorrow, then
Speaker 6: it's not too late. He has five thousand children's deaths
Speaker 6: to account for, because it was only I think it
Speaker 6: was five or six thousand when he started to change
Speaker 6: his tomb and now you know, he's surprised a going
Speaker 6: for congressional legislation to restrict you know, he's not been
Speaker 6: you know, I uh, I have to be attentive to
Speaker 6: facts and I have to recognize, you know, you changed.
Speaker 6: I think it was it was unbearable for him because
Speaker 6: he was all these young people saying how he let
Speaker 6: them down? And you know, people have egos, and he
Speaker 6: was the hope of a generation. He was the hope
Speaker 6: of a generation, and he became an abomination. And you
Speaker 6: can imagine his children and his grandchildren, Daddy, Grandpa, why
Speaker 6: are you opposing a cease fire?
Speaker 4: You know? And he couldn't.
Speaker 6: Obviously, it's very hard to plumb the human mind, and
Speaker 6: so what's the point of being a psychoanalyst from Afar?
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was I think in that for a while
Speaker 1: people could kind of like fantasize that maybe there was
Speaker 1: some more ethical targeting of Hamas that was on the table.
Speaker 1: But at a certain point when you see the numbers,
Speaker 1: I mean very quickly and just knowing that it's the
Speaker 1: net Nyahoo government, knowing you know, any of the history,
Speaker 1: you could immediately see that was never some targeted you know,
Speaker 1: raid to just take out a few top Hamas leaders
Speaker 1: and try to win over the civilian population. That was
Speaker 1: It was never going to be. That was never on
Speaker 1: the table as a response to what happened on October seventh.
Speaker 6: I now that you brought that up, you know, people act,
Speaker 6: I don't fault them. You know, I had devolowed the
Speaker 6: whole of my adult life to.
Speaker 4: This against my will.
Speaker 6: I never knew what I was getting into the wars beginning,
Speaker 6: war's end, and then you figure you'll move on. I
Speaker 6: got involved in nineteen eighty two. Who would think that
Speaker 6: would consume my entire adult life?
Speaker 4: Wow? And so I can understand people not knowing all
Speaker 4: the facts.
Speaker 6: How would they It took me me intensive study twenty
Speaker 6: four seven, three sixty five to learn the facts. So
Speaker 6: I'm not faulting anyone. I'm just saying it's a factual matter.
Speaker 6: Let's say this whole thing that came up with Israel fighting,
Speaker 6: firing and killing three civilians who were carrying white flags, right,
Speaker 6: and everyone's shocked. And then I posted on my website.
Speaker 6: In two thousand and nine, Human Rights Watch put out
Speaker 6: a report right after Operation cast LT between December twenty seventh,
Speaker 6: in January seven, twenty seven, two thousand and eight, and
Speaker 6: January seventeen, two thousand and nine, and the report was
Speaker 6: entitled white Flag Killings. It's only shoot speaker with white flags.
Speaker 6: There's nothing new there, right, It's not like it was
Speaker 6: what's I knew I was? They killed Israelis.
Speaker 3: That's why people paid attention.
Speaker 6: It only shoots people with white flags, or shoots Palestinians
Speaker 6: with white flags.
Speaker 10: So people say, oh, because of the special circumstances of
Speaker 10: what happened on October seventh, it's enraged Israelis and it's
Speaker 10: it's because of that that they're acting carried on this way.
Speaker 4: So I would like to ask you in check the time, Okay,
Speaker 4: I would like to ask you turn the page of
Speaker 4: my Gaza book. Turn to page two thousand and nine.
Speaker 3: All right, in the Gaza book.
Speaker 4: Yes, it's table four.
Speaker 1: All right, here we go, I found it, okay, Table four.
Speaker 1: How Israel fought Operation Protective Edge. A selection of IDF
Speaker 1: testimony is that one.
Speaker 6: Yes, Now, I'd like you to bear in mind before
Speaker 6: I ask you to read it, that these are soldiers
Speaker 6: who form in Operation Protective Edge before October seven, turning
Speaker 6: about twenty fourteen. Okay, or and every soldier you say
Speaker 6: not peace snakes right? Well, see except for one. There
Speaker 6: are no apologies, no feelings of remorse. They're just matter
Speaker 6: of fact, we describing.
Speaker 4: What they did in Gaza. Okay.
Speaker 6: Now, just going to ask you to read down. Skip
Speaker 6: the numbers, because that's just the page numbers. And for
Speaker 6: each different testimony. Just do this because it's will be
Speaker 6: easier for the listener. Just go soldier and then read
Speaker 6: the testimony. Soldier, read another testimony, just read them for
Speaker 6: the listeners.
Speaker 1: Okay, So Soldier, when we left after the operation, it
Speaker 1: was just a barren stretch of desert. We spoke about
Speaker 1: it a lot amongst ourselves, the guys from the company.
Speaker 1: How crazy the amount of damage we did there was?
Speaker 1: I quote, listen, man, it's crazy what went on in there.
Speaker 1: Listen man, we really mess them up. Fuck check it out.
Speaker 1: There's nothing at all left. It's nothing but desert. Now
Speaker 1: that's crazy. Next, Soldier, I remember that the level of
Speaker 1: destruction looked insane to me.
Speaker 3: Soldier.
Speaker 1: We entered Gaza with an insane amount of fire power. Soldier,
Speaker 1: it all looked like a sci fi movie, serious levels
Speaker 1: of destruction everywhere. Everything was really in ruins and NonStop
Speaker 1: fire all the time.
Speaker 3: Soldier.
Speaker 1: Before the entrance on foot to the Gaza strip, a
Speaker 1: crazy amount of artillery was fired at the entire area.
Speaker 1: Before a tank makes any movement, it fires every time.
Speaker 1: Those guys were trigger happy, totally crazy. Do you want
Speaker 1: me to continue? Yes, yes, Soldier. The explosions effects cause
Speaker 1: major amounts of damage, but that doesn't interest anyone.
Speaker 3: Use it, use it.
Speaker 1: Explosives can't be taken back. The platoon commander says, I
Speaker 1: don't want to leave explosives with me.
Speaker 3: Soldier.
Speaker 1: Our view was of the center of the strip. Let's
Speaker 1: say it was a real fireworks display. From a distance,
Speaker 1: it looked pretty cool. If you look through a night
Speaker 1: vision scope, you saw crazy wreckage. It was a real trip.
Speaker 3: Soldier.
Speaker 1: You're shooting it anything that moves, and also what isn't
Speaker 1: moving crazy amounts. It also becomes a bit like a
Speaker 1: computer game. Totally cool and real, Soldier, it was total.
Speaker 3: Destruction in there.
Speaker 1: The photos online are child's play compared to what we
Speaker 1: saw there.
Speaker 3: In reality. I never saw anything like it, soldiering, you
Speaker 3: get enough idea.
Speaker 6: Yeah, no, Crystal, you know, I don't like to play
Speaker 6: the mother card, because fathers also care about their children.
Speaker 4: Yeah, but as a mother, this is what mowing the
Speaker 4: lawn meant in Gaza.
Speaker 6: This is what those kids who burst the gates of
Speaker 6: Gaza experienced every few years from that Satanic state. That's
Speaker 6: what they experienced, That's what they underwent. Yeah, this wasn't
Speaker 6: because of October seventh. What we're seeing now. Yes, it's
Speaker 6: in the higher scale because the past Isvielle just wanted
Speaker 6: to mow the lawn. Now it wants to extirpate the
Speaker 6: fancy word for pullout by the roots. Now it wants
Speaker 6: to extirpate every blade of grass in Goza. Before we
Speaker 6: just wanted to cut it down every few years. This
Speaker 6: is not because of October seven any more than shooting
Speaker 6: people with white flags and they're chested has to do
Speaker 6: with October seven. That's Israel's modus operende in Gaza. That's
Speaker 6: always been It's modus operende in Gaza.
Speaker 1: Well, Norm, I really am grateful for your time as
Speaker 1: always and your patients and explaining things so people can
Speaker 1: have a sense of the history and a sense of
Speaker 1: the facts. Is there any of your books in particular
Speaker 1: you would recommend to folks to read at this time.
Speaker 6: Yeah. Look, I don't like to make money off of
Speaker 6: the dead, so I'm always very careful about promoting myself.
Speaker 4: But there is an educational value, of course.
Speaker 6: So on the Gaza book, that's the fruit of I
Speaker 6: started researching Gaza about just focusing on gods about two
Speaker 6: thousand and eight, so it's the food of about fifteen years,
Speaker 6: just on Gossin. You know, I never thought I wrote it.
Speaker 6: If you look at the very last page of the book,
Speaker 6: the body of the book, I wrote, uh, I wrote
Speaker 6: the author, meaning myself. I actually I'd rather you read
Speaker 6: it because I prefer you have a good reading voice.
Speaker 6: Five the very last page, right before.
Speaker 1: The appendix three fifty five, you said three sixty five
Speaker 1: sixty five Okay that I am finding.
Speaker 4: Okay, you'll start from It's around eight lines down. The
Speaker 4: author holds.
Speaker 1: The author holds out fate hope that it will find
Speaker 1: an audience among his contemporaries.
Speaker 4: Still, this book will find an audience.
Speaker 1: Yes, Still, the truth should be preserved. It is the
Speaker 1: least that's owed the victims. Perhaps one day, in the
Speaker 1: remote future, when the tenor of the times is more receptive,
Speaker 1: someone will stumble across this book collecting dust on a
Speaker 1: library shelf, blow off the cobwebs, and be stung by
Speaker 1: outrage at the lot of a people, if not forsaken
Speaker 1: by God, then betrayed by the cupidity and corruption, careerism
Speaker 1: and cynicism, cravenness and cowardice of mortal man. There will
Speaker 1: come a time Jackson, anticipated.
Speaker 4: Are just let me clarified.
Speaker 6: There was a woman named Helen Hunt Jackson, and she
Speaker 6: chronicled the destruction of the Native American people in the
Speaker 6: United States. And her book was called A Century of
Speaker 6: dishonor a wonderful Book. And so I'm referring back to
Speaker 6: her book when she describes what was done to the
Speaker 6: Native Americans in our country, and I say, there will
Speaker 6: become a time.
Speaker 1: When to the student of American history it will seem
Speaker 1: well nigh incredible what was done to the Cherokee. It
Speaker 1: is not certain that one.
Speaker 3: Day the Black records of is it not certain.
Speaker 1: Will seem well nigh incredible what was done to the
Speaker 1: Cherokee Cherokee? Is it not certain that one day the
Speaker 1: black record of Gaza's martyrdom will in retrospect also seem
Speaker 1: well nigh incredible.
Speaker 4: Yeah. I never thought people would read the book.
Speaker 10: It was.
Speaker 6: A chronicle for the future. I never saw it as
Speaker 6: selling more than a you know, at most a couple
Speaker 6: of thousand copies. That wasn't my goal. I felt that
Speaker 6: it was what Helen Hauns chuckson. Did you know there
Speaker 6: was a after World War Two there was a famous
Speaker 6: book by two I guess one, maybe both of them
Speaker 6: were Jewish. One was Ilia Ehrenberg and I.
Speaker 4: Can't remember the other fellows. And it was called The.
Speaker 6: Black Book of Nazism, just described the Russian describe what
Speaker 6: was done to the Russian people by the Nazis. It
Speaker 6: was a chronicle, a very fat book. Obviously nobody's going
Speaker 6: to not many people are going to go.
Speaker 4: And that's how I saw this book. And it was
Speaker 4: just totally.
Speaker 6: It was so strange because when October seventh happened, I
Speaker 6: had already moved on. I thought the whole situation was hopeless,
Speaker 6: and as you know, I started writing a book on
Speaker 6: cancel culture and other things. And I was very excited
Speaker 6: by that because I felt like, I know, it's a
Speaker 6: horrible thing to say, but I felt like my mind
Speaker 6: had been emancipated. I had been liberated because for forty
Speaker 6: years I couldn't move. I had this feeling of I'm
Speaker 6: the only one that's going to do this kind of research.
Speaker 6: I'm the only one that's going to read through all
Speaker 6: these human rights organization reports. I'm the only one that's
Speaker 6: going to show every lie, you know, because most people
Speaker 6: don't have.
Speaker 4: That kind of patience. I have the discipline.
Speaker 6: I don't have a great mind, but I have a
Speaker 6: disciplined mind, which is to say, I can focus and
Speaker 6: go through everything with the fine teeth come and then
Speaker 6: all of a sudden October seventh, it's like, well that
Speaker 6: became relevant again.
Speaker 4: I thought I was past it.
Speaker 6: And so when I recommend the book to people, it's
Speaker 6: not because I expect to make money.
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm at that point in life for making money.
Speaker 4: It doesn't make much of the difference. So but I
Speaker 4: do feel it has an educative value and it's a
Speaker 4: horror I mean, what was.
Speaker 6: Uh, what was done has been done to the people
Speaker 6: of gods is simply beyond belief. But most people have,
Speaker 6: you know, they think everything began October seventh. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and so much of the history.
Speaker 1: There's so many lies that are just pervasive in American
Speaker 1: culture about the reality of the history and the details
Speaker 1: of what's actually unfolded. And you might say, well, that
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, you know, the past of the past. It's
Speaker 1: just like focus on what's happening now in the future.
Speaker 1: But I mean, one thing that really comes clear when
Speaker 1: you study this conflict at all is just how much
Speaker 1: getting the facts straight about the past matters for some
Speaker 1: kind of an eventual, hopeful resolution. Doctor Norman Finkelstein is
Speaker 1: always great to see you. Thank you so much again
Speaker 1: for spending time with us.
Speaker 4: Well, thank you for giving me the opportunity. I mean
Speaker 4: that you know you're serious. Uh, there's been a pattern
Speaker 4: I have to say. I know people aren't going to
Speaker 4: like it.
Speaker 6: It's probably politically incorrect, but the female commentators don't ask
Speaker 6: me why, whether it's Michaelea Peterson, uh, Candy's Owens, yourself,
Speaker 6: Brianna Joy. Great, they've just been much more uh. And
Speaker 6: I mean this in a very positive sense. They've just
Speaker 6: been much more humble. They recognize, you know, well, we
Speaker 6: have a lot of things to cover, and so we
Speaker 6: don't have your uh depth of knowledge, and will listen.
Speaker 6: We'll listen, We'll ask questions, and we'll listen. And that's
Speaker 6: the common characteristic. You listen, you watch cand So owns
Speaker 6: wherever you think of her. I don't know anything about
Speaker 6: her because I don't watch it social media.
Speaker 4: It's not my thing. Or MICHAELA.
Speaker 6: Peterson, who I never heard of, uh So, and beyond
Speaker 6: the joy Gray and yourself. So you listen, you take
Speaker 6: in and then you see these guys. I know it's
Speaker 6: probably politically correct, you know this, Jordan Peterson, Sam Harris,
Speaker 6: this Bill Maher uh the.
Speaker 4: You know, I accept the arrogance with.
Speaker 6: People who are smart, Okay, accept this guy knows what
Speaker 6: he's talking about, even though he's an arrogant son of
Speaker 6: a bitch. But this mixture of arrogance and complete stupidity,
Speaker 6: complete ignorance, you.
Speaker 3: Know, it is an incredible combo, isn't it.
Speaker 4: I think it was blowhearts. I think it's you know anything.
Speaker 4: Bill Moore, lecturing on byzantium.
Speaker 6: So it's been it's been especially ratherifying to have interlocky.
Speaker 6: There is who showed the humility, and obviously they have
Speaker 6: the knowledge. I mean, you were, as I said, you
Speaker 6: were very good with the Probert County I said, okay,
Speaker 6: I went to thought.
Speaker 4: Of the responses. They were good.
Speaker 6: But still listen, you know, still listen, and I don't
Speaker 6: demand that you agree with what I have to say,
Speaker 6: but a little humility. You have the clue what you're
Speaker 6: talking about. It's like me talking about particle physics. Okay,
Speaker 6: so so so nice to
Speaker 3: You, nor take care and happy holidays you too,