Speaker 1: Most humans share a lot of the same core values
Speaker 1: and just have conflicts over different approaches of how to
Speaker 1: get there. Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time,
Speaker 1: great thinkers have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have.
Speaker 1: Quotes like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what
Speaker 1: you think ring true, and yet for many of us,
Speaker 1: our thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf. Thanks
Speaker 1: for joining us. Our guest on this episode is Jamie Wilson.
Speaker 1: She's a feminist, activist, writer, and speaker. As director of
Speaker 1: the Feminist Press in the City University of New York
Speaker 1: and the former VP of Programs at the Women's Media Center,
Speaker 1: Jamia has been a leading voice on women's rights issues
Speaker 1: for over a decade. Her work has appeared in countless
Speaker 1: outlets including New York Times, That Today Show, CNN L
Speaker 1: and the list goes on and on. She's the author
Speaker 1: of many books, including Roadmap for Revolutionaries, Young Gifted and Black,
Speaker 1: Step Into Power, and others. Hi, Jamia, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so happy
Speaker 1: to have you on. We are going to talk about
Speaker 1: some of your work books like Step into Your Power,
Speaker 1: twenty three, lessons on how to Live your Best Life
Speaker 1: and Roadmap for Revolutionaries here shortly, but let's start like
Speaker 1: we always do, with the parable. There's a grandmother who's
Speaker 1: talking with her granddaughter and she says, in life, there
Speaker 1: are two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.
Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness
Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,
Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And
Speaker 1: then granddaughter stops and she thinks about it for a second.
Speaker 1: She looks up at her grandmother says, grandmother, which one wins,
Speaker 1: And the grandmother says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. Yeah, I mean I think that I
Speaker 1: think about this question a lot in terms of figuring
Speaker 1: out my discomfort within balances that I see in the world.
Speaker 1: I've always been someone who has been a very justice
Speaker 1: oriented person. Have been always oriented around fairness, since the playground,
Speaker 1: around a sense of inherent dignity, or being on the
Speaker 1: side of the underdog, or being on the side of
Speaker 1: supporting what's right for the greater good, and even right
Speaker 1: down to food portions, you know, when we were kids,
Speaker 1: I want to make sure everyone got the same thing,
Speaker 1: and have been someone who almost to a point of
Speaker 1: obsession sometimes I will translate to other people as self
Speaker 1: righteousness or naivete or delusion. And so I think that
Speaker 1: the parable means to me that I believe a world
Speaker 1: is possible, and a way of being in humanity as
Speaker 1: possible where we can predominantly feed the wolf that is altruistic,
Speaker 1: that is fair, that is collaborative, that is compassionate, because
Speaker 1: I ultimately believe that that is the stronger wolf. But
Speaker 1: we are in a society that has been operating in
Speaker 1: a way that empowers the wolf, that is built on
Speaker 1: greed and fear and domination and power over versus power
Speaker 1: shared with others. Which deludes all of us, and I
Speaker 1: include myself and that in our society through conditioning toward
Speaker 1: believing that it's not possible for everyone to be lifted
Speaker 1: up together, that somehow if everyone were to be equal,
Speaker 1: it would mean that someone would be oppressed, or someone
Speaker 1: would be undermined or have less. And so for me,
Speaker 1: it's it's always the question of knowing deep in my
Speaker 1: marrow that I believe that the good wolf can be
Speaker 1: fed and that we can all actually as humans function
Speaker 1: in a way that's functional and healthy and compassion driven
Speaker 1: and collaborative and unlearned. What is a model that hasn't
Speaker 1: been working for a really long time to go toward
Speaker 1: what I actually believe is our nature, which is not
Speaker 1: what we were taught as human nature, which is more
Speaker 1: an alignment with the good wolf, although I'm careful to
Speaker 1: call it the good wolf, because I know that all
Speaker 1: of us are complex and nuance in that way as well.
Speaker 1: It's always interesting because I go back and forth on
Speaker 1: this point. I've been doing this podcast for a while now,
Speaker 1: and I read this parable every week, and so I
Speaker 1: say good wolf, bad wolf. But then there's a part
Speaker 1: of particularly from my Buddhism background, that says like, well,
Speaker 1: let's not get into good and bad. Let's call it
Speaker 1: skillful and unskillful. Yes, right, But then there's other moments,
Speaker 1: like in a moment that I'm like, a moment that
Speaker 1: we're living in right now, where I go, well, you
Speaker 1: know what, maybe there is a good wolf and a
Speaker 1: bad wolf, Like if I look at this from a
Speaker 1: moral perspective. For a long time, I think I was
Speaker 1: I really wanted to shy away from a moral perspective
Speaker 1: because I think in my own life and in people
Speaker 1: that I knew, there was this there was a sense
Speaker 1: of like, well, you know, moral is this narrow Christian
Speaker 1: idea that somehow is very limiting, and so let's move
Speaker 1: into the less judgmental Buddhist idea is skillful unskillful. And
Speaker 1: then you look out in the world though sometimes and
Speaker 1: you go, well, let's see there, it seems like there's
Speaker 1: good and bad there. Reflect on that for me because
Speaker 1: I kind of go back and forth on it. So
Speaker 1: interesting because I rapple with that myself, and I see
Speaker 1: the limitations that I also have as someone who you know,
Speaker 1: is really driven by this sort of moral imperative or ethics.
Speaker 1: You know, I am that person. That's why I was
Speaker 1: saying that to some it translates as self righteous, right,
Speaker 1: because I am definitely someone who you know, has many
Speaker 1: times in any sort of arguments, debates, etcetera, said oh,
Speaker 1: this is the moral thing to do. It's unconscionable to
Speaker 1: do that, right. Those are things that will roll off
Speaker 1: my tongue frequently, whether it's in a boardroom or in
Speaker 1: my home and my partner's conversation or whatever. While also
Speaker 1: saying that I believe that what is defined as moral
Speaker 1: is complicated in nuance in itself, um, and that's not
Speaker 1: talked about as much that it could be moral. And
Speaker 1: I've had this debate sometimes with people in spiritual communities.
Speaker 1: I've been in not secular ones, but I'm more spiritual
Speaker 1: um interfaith communities as well. When the election happened, and
Speaker 1: there were people who were kind of like, oh, we
Speaker 1: have to have a sense of peace and compassion for
Speaker 1: the people who voted against what we want and against
Speaker 1: what we feel is peaceful and against what we feel
Speaker 1: is just, and I said, you know, actually that is
Speaker 1: not where I am right now. I am in a
Speaker 1: place of grave anger, protection and rage right now. That's clear.
Speaker 1: It's a clarity rage like and not an ego driven one,
Speaker 1: that there are people who can't see that their actions
Speaker 1: are going to be harmful for a lot of people,
Speaker 1: that there will be an impact that will have detrimental
Speaker 1: effects on people. And so we had this discussion in
Speaker 1: our community around if it was okay for me to
Speaker 1: talk about saying, you know, I'm not actually in a
Speaker 1: position of forgiveness, and I think that that is moral
Speaker 1: because I am being true to the sincerity of my heart.
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to lie. I'm not trying to deliver
Speaker 1: platitudes to say that I am in a place of
Speaker 1: forgiveness or understanding, because that is not where I am
Speaker 1: right now, and I think it's okay for me not
Speaker 1: to be there, while it is also okay for some
Speaker 1: other people to be there, I need space to not
Speaker 1: be there. And so that for me was a really
Speaker 1: good lesson about what moral means, right, because I know
Speaker 1: that I was feeling judge meant from folks who really
Speaker 1: thought like, oh you know that. Someone said they were like, oh,
Speaker 1: I feel like you're approach right now, just you know,
Speaker 1: feel so violent, And I said, I've never brought up violence,
Speaker 1: but I'd like to unpack what that means about your
Speaker 1: discomfort with me saying that I feel really aligned in
Speaker 1: anger right now, and I'm okay with that because you
Speaker 1: feel that the moral way right now is to kind
Speaker 1: of be in a place of peace where I don't
Speaker 1: feel that the world is peaceful. That I actually feel
Speaker 1: right now that maybe we are called to wake up
Speaker 1: and be angrier than we have been, and that maybe
Speaker 1: will come to something else out of that. But I
Speaker 1: think that there's an alchemy that can come from it.
Speaker 1: So I flore that a lot, and I think that
Speaker 1: that nuance should be allowed because I think humans, by
Speaker 1: our very nature are complex beings and not binary beings.
Speaker 1: There's a bunch of things, and what you said, they're
Speaker 1: a bunch of paths we could go down. I think
Speaker 1: one would be from a starting point. We've got to
Speaker 1: realize where we are and we've got to allow ourselves
Speaker 1: to say it's okay that I feel what I feel,
Speaker 1: because if we can't do that, we just get screwed
Speaker 1: up in all different kinds of ways. We gotta be
Speaker 1: able to feel what we feel. And it's interesting because
Speaker 1: I tend to be one of the people one of
Speaker 1: my big beliefs is that we can have people on
Speaker 1: different sides of the political divide who are good people
Speaker 1: on both sides of a political divide, and that a
Speaker 1: lot of the rhetoric that happens actually ends up driving
Speaker 1: people further apart, right, And that it's our inability to see, oh, look,
Speaker 1: here's another human who has beliefs and ideas and understandings
Speaker 1: like I do, and we have to find our way
Speaker 1: back to dialogue because it doesn't seem screaming at each
Speaker 1: other really works very well, right. I just sort of
Speaker 1: observe that in all aspects. And also at the same time, though, Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are these times where you go, well, is this
Speaker 1: just a debate about political ideas? And I can't tell.
Speaker 1: And I know it's not like there's a line you cross,
Speaker 1: you know. I used to think about alcoholism like this.
Speaker 1: I'm recovering alcoholic and addict. One day I wasn't. Then
Speaker 1: I crossed the line and I was, which I know
Speaker 1: now that's not the way that works, right, But I
Speaker 1: look at people and I sometimes in my mind I
Speaker 1: almost imagine there's like, well, on this side of the line,
Speaker 1: we're just having a debate about economic policy, and we
Speaker 1: might believe we might very well have different opinions about
Speaker 1: the best way to drive economic growth that benefits the
Speaker 1: most number of people, Like I think you can have
Speaker 1: honest and earnest debates about that and be coming from
Speaker 1: a place of a good heart, and then it feels like, oh,
Speaker 1: you just crossed this line and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: now you are a bad person, you know, quote unquote,
Speaker 1: or you know, morally, And I think that's what gets
Speaker 1: so confusing. And I really am wrestling with as I
Speaker 1: look at our country, because I'm like, well, I believe
Speaker 1: in dialogue, I believe in hearing each other, and then
Speaker 1: I see people where it's like, I think we've crossed
Speaker 1: some line where it's gone from and earnest debate into
Speaker 1: a moral issue, and that's a confusing place for me.
Speaker 1: I'm with you. It's funny the timing we have on this,
Speaker 1: because I've been working on a podcast that I collaborate
Speaker 1: with my former editor in chief at Rocky Magazine, Tavy Jevinson,
Speaker 1: and she and I were talking about would this episode
Speaker 1: be that I would write to contribute to a larger
Speaker 1: series that a bunch of former writers for the magazine
Speaker 1: would be writing about and I said, I wanted to
Speaker 1: write about how to disagree with people, how to get
Speaker 1: comfortable with conflict, because it's something that I enjoy exploring,
Speaker 1: and I have many of those questions myself because I
Speaker 1: am someone who both is open to disagreeing with people
Speaker 1: who don't agree with me, because I think that is
Speaker 1: how when you grow, you're either your own sensibilities around
Speaker 1: what you truly believe, or you expand yourself to learn
Speaker 1: something new and maybe change your perspective or grow it
Speaker 1: through disagreement, um and critical thought. And I've encouraged that
Speaker 1: in my children's books, including my newest one, Big Ideas
Speaker 1: for Young Thinkers. It starts with Big Ideas Guarantee in
Speaker 1: the beginning of the book that talks about how to
Speaker 1: disagree and to assume that you'll disagree with some of
Speaker 1: the things in this book, and here are some tools
Speaker 1: for how to disagree. And it's something that in some countries,
Speaker 1: like in France, they teach this to kids at a
Speaker 1: really young age and it's all about debate, and that's
Speaker 1: not necessarily how we teach in the general US system,
Speaker 1: and I think girl children are often taught that conflict
Speaker 1: is dangerous and that we should somehow be adverse to it.
Speaker 1: And I think, you know, black children have this other
Speaker 1: kind of layer of feeling like, oh, you might be
Speaker 1: criminalized if you are seen as too aggressive or seen
Speaker 1: as to assertive. I've been exploring that and so for me,
Speaker 1: what I say and it is it's okay to disagree,
Speaker 1: and you can have conversations with people who think differently
Speaker 1: than you do. Recognize that most humans share a lot
Speaker 1: of the same core values and just have conflicts over
Speaker 1: different approaches of how to get there. You know, if
Speaker 1: you think about protection day that these safety, all of
Speaker 1: those things. I also mentioned that it's okay to have
Speaker 1: non negotiable So, like what you were saying about, they're
Speaker 1: just some people to whom I've had this experience. And
Speaker 1: I'm someone who always leads with a hopeful heart for
Speaker 1: just some people who I'm not going to find common
Speaker 1: ground with for many reasons. Are there some people for
Speaker 1: whom their words and their actions make it dangerous for
Speaker 1: me to engage in them, either psychically, physically, are mentally.
Speaker 1: And what do you do when you find yourself in
Speaker 1: those situations? And so I talk about that about how
Speaker 1: to set boundaries and how to kind of tune into
Speaker 1: yourself to know if you're in a disagreement situation where
Speaker 1: you might not be able to change each other's hearts
Speaker 1: and minds, but you can maybe move them and grow
Speaker 1: and come to a point of common ground or a
Speaker 1: point of at least seeing why the other person has
Speaker 1: their perspective and understanding their motivations learning something. And then
Speaker 1: there are situations where if someone is speaking to you
Speaker 1: in an abusive way, or someone is threatening violence or
Speaker 1: undermining your humanity, that you can choose to approach that
Speaker 1: in a different way. And I always go to sort
Speaker 1: of my favorite song The Gambler as an sort of
Speaker 1: assessment tool for that. You know, you've got to no
Speaker 1: one to hold him, you want to fold him, no
Speaker 1: one to walk away. I'm a big believer of that,
Speaker 1: And so I also want to encourage people to say
Speaker 1: that you don't have to put yourself in the line
Speaker 1: of fire and abuse. Ever, that it's not your job
Speaker 1: to shrink to make other people feel tall. Ever, and
Speaker 1: yet we should also be strong enough to accept righteous
Speaker 1: critique when it comes from a place of goodwill, and
Speaker 1: except that we need to grow. So I think a
Speaker 1: lot about this, and I think about people have been
Speaker 1: on the journey with around trying to understand how we
Speaker 1: see things really differently, and some of those relationships I've
Speaker 1: had to cut off, and then some of those that
Speaker 1: I've been able to be in relationship with, and how
Speaker 1: we've been able to say how we really see this differently,
Speaker 1: and that's unlikely to change, but these are the ways
Speaker 1: we've grown because we've still done the work to be
Speaker 1: in conversation at least attempt to be in humanity with
Speaker 1: each other on the path. But it's really tricky, and
Speaker 1: I think some of the hardest times I've had actually
Speaker 1: come from people that I like in terms of just
Speaker 1: you know, liking to hang out on a human level,
Speaker 1: who hold beliefs that I find dangerous and that I
Speaker 1: find um inflammatory to the point where I can't be
Speaker 1: in relationship with them. And so what I try to
Speaker 1: do is have that conversation with them about that, and
Speaker 1: if they're unwilling to see that that harm I'm feeling
Speaker 1: is not something that they should explore with me, or
Speaker 1: at least here as a person in relationship with me,
Speaker 1: it's often the move I make to step away, and
Speaker 1: that can be really painful. Yeah, I wish I knew
Speaker 1: who tweeted it over the last week because I don't recall,
Speaker 1: but it was a black activist, but I don't remember
Speaker 1: who it was. But she said, now is not the
Speaker 1: time to argue with your racist uncle. Yes, that really
Speaker 1: resonated with me, and I wrestle within myself about this
Speaker 1: off and because I know I have I have a
Speaker 1: couple of qualities inside myself. One is I don't like conflict,
Speaker 1: and another is I think a real sense of like
Speaker 1: not investing myself in things that aren't going to make
Speaker 1: any difference, like the serenity prayer, right, like what can
Speaker 1: I change? What can I And if I can't change it,
Speaker 1: I'm not putting any energy there. And so that is
Speaker 1: often I found myself in situations with I don't have
Speaker 1: a racist uncle, but could be a racist anybody, a
Speaker 1: really old person and you know somebody who's like eighty
Speaker 1: five in my life, and they'll say something and it
Speaker 1: will go through my mind. I'm like, there's no point,
Speaker 1: there's no point, they're not going to change. And I
Speaker 1: wrestle with within myself. Am I giving into my fear
Speaker 1: of conflict or am I just sort of going like
Speaker 1: I'm not investing energy and a lost cause I'm never
Speaker 1: quite sure where I where I land on that. And
Speaker 1: that's just my reflection back to kind of what we're
Speaker 1: talking about, like another another dilemma I found myself in,
Speaker 1: which is, you know, how to approach some of those
Speaker 1: situations you're talking about where you have a pretty good
Speaker 1: sense the other person just isn't going to come around
Speaker 1: to what you see or think. It's really hard because
Speaker 1: sometimes you really really and my therapist always talks about this,
Speaker 1: you know, even outside of any sort of polemic around
Speaker 1: how you know, humans were really good at reliving the
Speaker 1: same story and expecting a different ending over and over
Speaker 1: and over again, and that is why you're in therapy.
Speaker 1: Um And and I think about it a lot a lot,
Speaker 1: because I definitely have that in my life. But I
Speaker 1: think this about some people who I've really tried to,
Speaker 1: especially be in conversation with to say, hey, we're polarized
Speaker 1: right now, we are on different sides of the plane
Speaker 1: and what's happening. And you know, there's a person who
Speaker 1: was in a relationship with my partner and I and
Speaker 1: my partner's wait who sort of started to reveal that
Speaker 1: he had some pretty incendiary beliefs, was reading some publications
Speaker 1: that I had seen aligned with some hate groups and
Speaker 1: had had sort of a radical shift into doubling down
Speaker 1: into this language. And then one day I heard that
Speaker 1: he was correcting something that I said and said, oh,
Speaker 1: there's a difference between a whites nationalist and a white supremacist,
Speaker 1: And that was just a real non negotiable for me.
Speaker 1: Um And to say, Wow, you're like in relationship with
Speaker 1: this mixed couple, who are your friends, You've eaten in
Speaker 1: our home, You've done all these things, and I've seen
Speaker 1: you in relationships with women of color and like intimate relationships,
Speaker 1: and yet you're trying to justify any sort of racial
Speaker 1: hatred around keeping a predominance of white superiority somehow more
Speaker 1: moral than another, and that is just unacceptable to me.
Speaker 1: And uh, I think that what's been really interesting is
Speaker 1: that this is a person who genuinely doesn't believe that
Speaker 1: that makes them have any racial issues. That they just
Speaker 1: believe in a lot of conspiracy theories. They are so
Speaker 1: bought into the idea that everything's broken, and so they
Speaker 1: are feeling whereas they become increasingly alienated from those of us.
Speaker 1: They used to know that the community they're getting out
Speaker 1: of this sort of provocateur group they're engaged with, and
Speaker 1: all of that is feeding them, it's feeding the other right, right.
Speaker 1: So I finally, for a while, you know it, just
Speaker 1: said to my partner, like, you know, I don't want
Speaker 1: him in my home, and I want to tell him
Speaker 1: to his face that I don't feel safe. I don't
Speaker 1: feel safe with this person here given what it is
Speaker 1: I do, but also that I don't feel safe knowing
Speaker 1: that you hold this ideologology and others, because he had
Speaker 1: defended the statement about some countries being shiphole countries and
Speaker 1: all of that kind of stuff. But I knew that
Speaker 1: there was sort of this process that my partner was
Speaker 1: going to have to go through as a why ally
Speaker 1: to figure out that question of you know, how do
Speaker 1: I now that I realized that this person who's been
Speaker 1: in my life for many years has these thoughts and
Speaker 1: I have this relationship with them, how do I move
Speaker 1: away from that? And so we had a lot of conversations,
Speaker 1: and for a long time, I was kind of like,
Speaker 1: I'm going to let him be on this journey around
Speaker 1: making his own decisions. And I saw a pull away
Speaker 1: that happened which was important for me. But now when
Speaker 1: the George Floyd thing happened and this person started posting
Speaker 1: incendiary things about George Floyd and um defending it and
Speaker 1: doubling down after we've all seen that eight minutes and
Speaker 1: forty five second killing on video, and people in their
Speaker 1: communities started sort of outing this person's views as a
Speaker 1: dangerous person. That's when my husband was like, oh, you know,
Speaker 1: this isn't gonna work. It's time. And so I think
Speaker 1: that what's been interesting for me is feeling a little
Speaker 1: bit like a Cassandra and many spaces that I'm in
Speaker 1: in terms of that myth of Cassandra being given the
Speaker 1: gift of prophecy and then the curse of not being believed,
Speaker 1: and having seen like multiple years ago in the beginnings
Speaker 1: of that rhetoric, because I've experienced racism bodily that I
Speaker 1: knew that this person could get to that point and
Speaker 1: would get to this point. But other people who are
Speaker 1: anti racist and well meaning white allies in my life,
Speaker 1: people who love me and others, it took them longer
Speaker 1: to see that that's where it was going. And so UM,
Speaker 1: I think that both of those trajectories are painful for
Speaker 1: all involved but important to talk about, and there's been
Speaker 1: so much discomfort right about talking about it, So I'm
Speaker 1: exploring a lot of that. Now, what does it mean?
Speaker 1: What does it mean to kind of see people who
Speaker 1: you casually knew and in these sort of really political times,
Speaker 1: what does it mean to really see everything everyone brings
Speaker 1: to the table, and how do we act accordingly? Yeah,
Speaker 1: but there's a whole lot in there. But the thing
Speaker 1: you said there near the end is what I want
Speaker 1: to touch on, which is, there's two areas I'd like
Speaker 1: to go from here. One is I want to talk
Speaker 1: about ally ship and the others I want to talk
Speaker 1: about listening. And listening is actually an important part of
Speaker 1: ally ship, right, But what you said there was really
Speaker 1: really important, which was you've lived some of this stuff
Speaker 1: at a deeper level than I, as a white person have,
Speaker 1: and so you can see it coming. It's like me
Speaker 1: and alcoholism and addiction, like I've been around it so
Speaker 1: much in my life, so many people like I can
Speaker 1: sniff it out, like we gotta think we got a
Speaker 1: problem bruin over there, Bob. So I think that this
Speaker 1: is an idea that I'm just getting the people of
Speaker 1: color in my life and in my communities might see
Speaker 1: something that I can't see yet because they've got a
Speaker 1: lot more experience with it. And my way of operating
Speaker 1: in the world is to give everybody the benefit of
Speaker 1: the doubt. That's my general principle for operating with people,
Speaker 1: and I found it has served me pretty well, and
Speaker 1: in my own life, I've been very comfortable going, you
Speaker 1: know what, I'm going to give people the benefit of
Speaker 1: the doubt, and then if I turn out to be wrong, okay,
Speaker 1: then maybe I get a little bit hurt or something
Speaker 1: bad happens, but I'm willing to allow that to happen
Speaker 1: so that I can can sort of maintain what I
Speaker 1: think is a better place to be. So I take
Speaker 1: that same thing out into the world. But I'm starting
Speaker 1: to realize that giving everybody else the benefit of the
Speaker 1: doubt when it comes to this issue racism, it may
Speaker 1: not be my benefit of the doubt to give because
Speaker 1: I'm not the one being hurt. I'm starting to just
Speaker 1: see that in a way that I don't think I
Speaker 1: did before, which is that when other people are saying
Speaker 1: I see racism over there, and I go, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean, they're probably a good person there, I you
Speaker 1: know that maybe I need to be listening to the
Speaker 1: people who have experienced it more. When you mentioned that
Speaker 1: sort of what's the dynamic between you and your partner,
Speaker 1: that really brought that home for me. I appreciate you
Speaker 1: going on the journey of exploring that, right. I think
Speaker 1: it's really painful, and I think that was what was
Speaker 1: coming up in the conversation. I was mentioning earlier about,
Speaker 1: you know, being in a little bit of friction with
Speaker 1: some spiritual friends I had because I was kind of like, oh,
Speaker 1: I know what's coming, right, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: Like if this is where we are right now, I
Speaker 1: know that actually where we're going isn't going to be pretty,
Speaker 1: and that like these next four years, a lot is
Speaker 1: going to be bared A lot of the truth is
Speaker 1: going to be bared forth. And part of that is history, right,
Speaker 1: like just knowing how history works. But also, like you
Speaker 1: said that a lived experience that you know, indoctrination that
Speaker 1: you get as a young child, um as a result
Speaker 1: of being other young I mean, I was joking the
Speaker 1: other day with one of my friends about how it's
Speaker 1: it's really interesting to say that people will often say, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, like I don't see race, I don't you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know race, etcetera. And I'll say, oh, I
Speaker 1: have seen it. The first time I was called the
Speaker 1: inn word on the playground when I was six years old.
Speaker 1: You can't unsee that. And my life has been forever
Speaker 1: changed since that. And I think for people who haven't
Speaker 1: experienced something like that, it's hard to understand. But you know,
Speaker 1: I I learned that I had to have an awareness
Speaker 1: for survival and to thrive at other children would not
Speaker 1: have to learn ever, maybe or for many more years
Speaker 1: due to other kinds of ways of of being marginalized.
Speaker 1: I think that it's also one of the reasons why
Speaker 1: there's been a movement to talk about Hey, like you said,
Speaker 1: deep listening and also trust for the people who were
Speaker 1: most close to an issue and most close to being
Speaker 1: impacted negatively from a social problem to be a part
Speaker 1: of helping to prescribe what the solution is because they
Speaker 1: intricately know the many layers, they intricately know the complexities,
Speaker 1: and they intricately know what's not working. But I think
Speaker 1: that part of what's interesting about the moment is because
Speaker 1: of how white supremacy operates, it makes people who are
Speaker 1: newly awakened to it, who are of a dominant community
Speaker 1: often think, oh, well, now that I know this exists,
Speaker 1: I can take action and just fix it um, because
Speaker 1: that's sort of supremacy does teach them almost a competition mindset, right,
Speaker 1: as well as feeling empowered or entitled to be in charge. Right.
Speaker 1: And so when I talk about ally ship a lot
Speaker 1: and talking about the deep listening like you're saying, I
Speaker 1: also invite people to do their homework to see what
Speaker 1: work has been done before and how they can be
Speaker 1: a follower that they don't necessarily need to be the
Speaker 1: one to lead in anybody else's space. They should be
Speaker 1: leading in their community with other white folks who need
Speaker 1: to be brought on and who are interested in making
Speaker 1: the change, but not necessarily directing the people closest to
Speaker 1: the problem on what they should do next or critiquing
Speaker 1: their methods. And that's something that I think is often
Speaker 1: a hard conversation because a lot of people are well
Speaker 1: meaning and then want to, as I like to say,
Speaker 1: take their toys and go home when they're kind of
Speaker 1: approached about that not being a good or productive way
Speaker 1: to do things. And I often say if you really
Speaker 1: want to lead in the space, you will model gracious
Speaker 1: acceptance of making mistakes. You will model making righteous sincere
Speaker 1: apologies when you mess up and actually know that you're
Speaker 1: going to mess up, and instead of taking your toys
Speaker 1: and go home, you'll brush off your knee and say,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I'm sorry that hurt. But I'm or
Speaker 1: I'm staying in this to fix it because I know
Speaker 1: you are in it to fix it because you have
Speaker 1: no choice every day, and I can take my power
Speaker 1: and privilege to do so. And so those are the
Speaker 1: people that I'm really looking to right now as allies
Speaker 1: and co conspirators, as I like to say, the people
Speaker 1: who are staying in it even when it hurts. There's
Speaker 1: about fifteen things in there I could take a part.
Speaker 1: One is guilty is charged of looking at a problem
Speaker 1: suddenly there's a problem over there, and then thinking I
Speaker 1: know how to fix it better. And some of that
Speaker 1: comes from being a lifelong entrepreneur. That's my nature. I
Speaker 1: look at something and I'm like, I'm going to fix that.
Speaker 1: But I've really had to realize, like in this case,
Speaker 1: like you said, no, learn what's happened before, And I'm
Speaker 1: really grateful to my son, who has taught me a
Speaker 1: lot of this. The second thing that you said there,
Speaker 1: I think is take my toys and go home. And
Speaker 1: this has been a criticism that I've occasionally had as
Speaker 1: I look at the left as a whole. You know,
Speaker 1: I'm a left leaning kind of guy, right, but I
Speaker 1: sometimes feel like there's a tendency if I don't say
Speaker 1: something quite right, or somebody else doesn't say something quite
Speaker 1: right or doesn't have quite the right words, that the
Speaker 1: community sort of look. It seems like the community sort
Speaker 1: of turns on that person, and it is this sense
Speaker 1: of you didn't say it right. And so my original
Speaker 1: thought was, like, we gotta ease up on all that.
Speaker 1: And and while I agree I think that the way
Speaker 1: that we educate people is really important, I also am
Speaker 1: coming to see what you're saying, which is that if
Speaker 1: I'm sincere about this, then you know what, if I
Speaker 1: wait in and I make a mistake, I say something
Speaker 1: wrong and somebody you know, gives me the business for it.
Speaker 1: Right that if I'm sincere about the cause and not
Speaker 1: sincere about my ego, then I'll just go, oh, I
Speaker 1: was wrong, Okay, I'll learn, I'll do better. Next time
Speaker 1: and I'll stay in it. And I think some of
Speaker 1: that's probably the white fragility that we talk about, I know,
Speaker 1: for me and for I think a lot of white
Speaker 1: people who want to be better allies. That's a place
Speaker 1: we've really got to start doing deeper work, which is
Speaker 1: that like there's got to be a sense of, you know,
Speaker 1: how do we become less fragile in that sense, and
Speaker 1: how are we able to stay in these really difficult
Speaker 1: conversations discussions and and a very difficult place that is
Speaker 1: not nearly as difficult as the place that the people
Speaker 1: were trying to be advocates and allies for have been
Speaker 1: living in. And again that's further ed ucation that that
Speaker 1: I'm sort of learning as I go. Well, I think
Speaker 1: it's great that you're there, because I think it's so hard.
Speaker 1: It's so hard for some people to even admit it, right.
Speaker 1: They can't admit they have privileged they can't admit that
Speaker 1: fragility is a thing, right, And I think that admitting
Speaker 1: the problem, I mean, it's it's almost like what we're
Speaker 1: talking about addiction, right, Like first people have to acknowledge it.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in a way some of how
Speaker 1: I regard like the pathology of racism, right, has to
Speaker 1: do with people really being addicted to an imbalance of
Speaker 1: power that serves them and being really afraid of losing it.
Speaker 1: Even if they psychically like understand that skin color is irrelevant, right,
Speaker 1: that there's still this feeling of I'm going to lose
Speaker 1: something if if you're equal, then I'm somehow oppressed, right,
Speaker 1: And that causes the stissonance that that people experience and fear.
Speaker 1: And so I think it's really important, um to have
Speaker 1: those conversations openly and to be able to talk about
Speaker 1: how much of that is unlearned. And you know, I
Speaker 1: think about the timing to in a lifetime people think, oh,
Speaker 1: now that I've done this work, I've read this book,
Speaker 1: I have no problem. I'm not going to show up
Speaker 1: this way. And I've often kind of said, oh, you're
Speaker 1: going to have to do this work forever, like condition
Speaker 1: for however many years you've been on this planet, and
Speaker 1: to be in a process of unlearning it would be
Speaker 1: like people thinking, oh, you read one book about like
Speaker 1: how to have a healthy interpersonal intimate relationship, and that
Speaker 1: suddenly you weren't like bringing all of your neuroses and
Speaker 1: baggage into that relationship, right like, we all have to
Speaker 1: interrogate our relationships to systems of power and depth balances
Speaker 1: like racism or sexism or other types of dehumanizing of
Speaker 1: other human beings. And I think it's important to kind
Speaker 1: of admit that and grow and also to kind of
Speaker 1: take accountability for our mistakes. I'm a part of a
Speaker 1: Facebook group that organizes a bunch of people in my profession,
Speaker 1: and one thing they don't allow as a dirty delete,
Speaker 1: as they call it. Whereas sometimes people get upset if
Speaker 1: they get called out for taking their toys and going
Speaker 1: home and want to delete all of their threads so
Speaker 1: that no one can see that they messed up or
Speaker 1: that they were fragile or they did something. And they'll say, no,
Speaker 1: here are the screenshots. We leave these up to show
Speaker 1: that we have been accountable. It doesn't make you bad.
Speaker 1: You're making this about you when you're trying to do
Speaker 1: is fix the system, and we can. What if you
Speaker 1: came back and said, hey, this is what I did.
Speaker 1: I learned from it, which is why there was one
Speaker 1: of the pieces I wrote for Rookie that later was
Speaker 1: adapted and put into Roadmap for Revolutionaries, which is a
Speaker 1: book I co authored with two of my friends, Melissa
Speaker 1: Chmia heart Page and Carolyn Jurenne, and in it we
Speaker 1: talked about ally ship and UH talked about how to
Speaker 1: kind of address that, to be okay with apologizing. And
Speaker 1: I allude to the fact that once I was called
Speaker 1: out because I saw a plus size fashion label make
Speaker 1: some beautiful clothes and one of my friends as a model,
Speaker 1: and I posted on it and said, oh, I wish
Speaker 1: that they made that in my size. I I want
Speaker 1: to be a part of it. And they all and
Speaker 1: their people who I was in good relationship and love,
Speaker 1: We're just like, Okay, look, we're gonna have to call
Speaker 1: you in. Although we respect your positions and a great
Speaker 1: many things, you have size privilege. It's really insulting that
Speaker 1: someone who can go into any store across the country
Speaker 1: or around the world and find clothing that fits your
Speaker 1: body would say that you want something that we had
Speaker 1: to make in um specifically for ourselves, in a landscape
Speaker 1: that makes larger people pay for their clothes more have
Speaker 1: to go to specialty stores, etcetera. And I really identified
Speaker 1: with because I thought, oh, now I kind of understand
Speaker 1: a little bit more about what white women feel like
Speaker 1: when they say things on Twitter that I get upset about,
Speaker 1: and now I'm kind of everyone's you know, piling on.
Speaker 1: And so I said, oh, you know what, I'm going
Speaker 1: to leave this up. Yeah, like I really messed up,
Speaker 1: Like this was not cool. I made it about me.
Speaker 1: It was like a narcissistic statement about wanting to be
Speaker 1: included in something that wasn't for me. And I already
Speaker 1: have all the privileges and benefits of being closer to
Speaker 1: what like the US standard sizes and what the dominant
Speaker 1: culture makes available for me, and I don't have to
Speaker 1: think about my clothes. I can just go in and
Speaker 1: pick something up and find what I need. You know,
Speaker 1: that was ignorant, That was selfish, and it was unethical,
Speaker 1: And so I left it up to say, I hope
Speaker 1: other people learn from this and know that even if
Speaker 1: you are marginalized in these other ways, you can still
Speaker 1: carry sizes and fat phobic beliefs. And I really had
Speaker 1: to interrogate that in myself. But then afterward I really
Speaker 1: asked some people in my life to say, hey, I
Speaker 1: don't want you to do emotional labor for me, but
Speaker 1: I do want you to feel comfortable if you feel
Speaker 1: safe enough to call me in if I say something
Speaker 1: like that again, because I really need to realize that
Speaker 1: I do have somebody stuff that I don't think I
Speaker 1: was thinking about that was harmful to other people, and
Speaker 1: I'm really sorry about that. Yeah, there's a few things
Speaker 1: you said in there I think is important. Um, we
Speaker 1: just re released this last week, a couple of conversations
Speaker 1: we had with Austin, Shannon Brown and Ruth King, and
Speaker 1: we thought, now, with everything that's happening, let's re release them.
Speaker 1: And my initial instinct was like, well, wait, I want
Speaker 1: to listen to those first, because I think I fumbled
Speaker 1: through those right, And I went, you know what, that's
Speaker 1: not the point if I fumbled through them. I fumbled
Speaker 1: through them, like their voice is what's important here, not mine,
Speaker 1: Like put it out there, be willing to see where
Speaker 1: I might have been wrong at those times or not
Speaker 1: done that. And so the other thing you said there
Speaker 1: I think is really important and I've heard you say
Speaker 1: this before and I really like it, which is that
Speaker 1: even though you are a black woman, there are other
Speaker 1: areas of life in which you have privilege. So you
Speaker 1: could say, oh, I'm a black woman and it's all terrible,
Speaker 1: But you then go through and say, but there's these
Speaker 1: other areas that I have privilege, whether it was coming
Speaker 1: from a certain type of background or size or lack
Speaker 1: of physical disability. I really like that because I think
Speaker 1: it's sort of showed the different layers and the different
Speaker 1: level levels the wrong word, the different layers, and the
Speaker 1: different ways that we can have privilege in some areas
Speaker 1: and not another. I really appreciate that because I've I've
Speaker 1: found that when I first wrote the first version of
Speaker 1: that piece, there were even people who tend to disagree
Speaker 1: with what I write who wrote back saying, oh, this
Speaker 1: is a piece I actually connect with or can learn
Speaker 1: something from because I saw that you wrote that, and
Speaker 1: it helped me understand that what you all are calling
Speaker 1: on is not aren't necessarily around saying that you know
Speaker 1: there aren't privileges that one can hold from being in
Speaker 1: a marginalized community, but to say that you know, these
Speaker 1: marginalis identities do impact your life um in a number
Speaker 1: of ways, and I talk about it all the time.
Speaker 1: There's this big publishing action that happens this week around
Speaker 1: people of color and publishing in advances and just the
Speaker 1: disparities of pay um as it relates to gender, race,
Speaker 1: et cetera, and background. And one of the things people
Speaker 1: talked about was how there's this uncomfortable conversation that people
Speaker 1: kind of know about but don't talk about and publishing
Speaker 1: around how some people's attractiveness could come up in certain
Speaker 1: spaces around whether or not they are someone that should
Speaker 1: be acquired because of how people think that that in
Speaker 1: their brand will sell books, right. And so I was
Speaker 1: following these threads about people wanting to talk about how
Speaker 1: they had heard this in editorial meetings and some corporate presses,
Speaker 1: and I think that there was a lot of shame.
Speaker 1: I was also kind of hearing and picking up from
Speaker 1: some folks, But I thought, now, this is good. It's
Speaker 1: talking about the layers of identity uh and talking about
Speaker 1: how we are in a culture that sort of rewards
Speaker 1: people whose physical attractiveness based on specific standards that are
Speaker 1: set by culture also benefits them. And there's been a
Speaker 1: lot of conversation about that in some l g t
Speaker 1: Q and other marginalized community spaces like black spaces and
Speaker 1: Latin X spaces around who gets booked for TV shows,
Speaker 1: who gets booked for these other things that yes, they're
Speaker 1: smart people who are getting these positions and slots, but
Speaker 1: do a lot of these smart people tend to have
Speaker 1: the same sort of look or the same sort of
Speaker 1: background or skin tone. Can we talk about what that means?
Speaker 1: And can we talk about light skin cartone privilege among
Speaker 1: people of color. So all of that is to say
Speaker 1: that these things are really important, and I you know,
Speaker 1: one of the things I'm really getting excited about is
Speaker 1: I'm about to do uh an Omega conversation with Omega
Speaker 1: Institute with Sister Joan Chittister, who's a nun who's a radical,
Speaker 1: and I love her so much, And one of the
Speaker 1: things I'm going to talk with her about is, you know,
Speaker 1: what is the onus for Christians like herself and myself
Speaker 1: who feel that there are other people who claim to
Speaker 1: walk in the path of Christ who were doing things
Speaker 1: that are harming people, and that I believe I hold
Speaker 1: privilege as a result of being a part of a
Speaker 1: religion that is upheld in our society, in our institutions
Speaker 1: when it shouldn't be actually according to the constitutions. So
Speaker 1: I want to talk with her about that because I
Speaker 1: think there's a level of responsibility for people who are
Speaker 1: also related to dominant religions whose religions are informing politics
Speaker 1: and culture to speak out as well about that, and
Speaker 1: something I've been thinking about in terms of privilege a lot.
Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about Christian privilege until I had some
Speaker 1: Muslim and Jewish friends really talk about what it means
Speaker 1: to have their religions associated with stereotypes and abuse that
Speaker 1: they've experienced and harassment. There's a thousand things I want
Speaker 1: to cover here about what you've been saying, but I
Speaker 1: want to circle back to somewhere I wanted to go
Speaker 1: early in the conversation and make sure we go there
Speaker 1: before we run out of time, which is, can you
Speaker 1: give us the beginner's guide for white people who want
Speaker 1: to be an ally? Because I know that I've got
Speaker 1: listeners of all colors, and I'm glad to have them all.
Speaker 1: And I also know that most people that are listening
Speaker 1: to this show are white. And I also know that
Speaker 1: most people listening to the show are of a good heart.
Speaker 1: Although we send out an email uh recently about our
Speaker 1: support of Black Lives Matter, and I'm realizing not everybody
Speaker 1: who listens might be of the same. But let's have
Speaker 1: the beginner's guide you know, if you're a white person
Speaker 1: to being a good ally, where should white people who go? Okay,
Speaker 1: you know what I've said on the sidelines long enough,
Speaker 1: I want to get started. You know, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to be able to turn my whole life upside down
Speaker 1: and not go to work. I want to contribute in
Speaker 1: a way that's useful. Where do we start? So, I
Speaker 1: think you know a big thing to do is look
Speaker 1: at existing work that's happening in your local community or
Speaker 1: in other communities, and if you have financial resources, donate.
Speaker 1: So donate. If you feel like maybe protesting isn't something
Speaker 1: that you're able to do, Donate to bail funds like
Speaker 1: the Minnesota Freedom Fund. Donate to Unicorn Riot. Help those
Speaker 1: people who are out there putting their bodies on the line,
Speaker 1: help them be able to get support. UM donate to
Speaker 1: the nub A CP Legal Defense Fund. Donate to the
Speaker 1: A C. L U, which I'm always a fan of,
Speaker 1: me to they're in the recurring donation category exactly right. Increasingly,
Speaker 1: I'm just oh, yeah, we need you for all the
Speaker 1: things right now, that's right, you know. Donate to a
Speaker 1: sail U. UM Donate to the smaller organizations too. That
Speaker 1: are ones who are less likely to be in the
Speaker 1: portfolios of the big funders and foundations. So if they're
Speaker 1: local groups, who are you know, volunteer lead that are
Speaker 1: doing great work, donate to them too. And if you
Speaker 1: can't donate money, donate time. So can you say I
Speaker 1: want to volunteer? I can support you in other ways
Speaker 1: if there's some work I can take on for you.
Speaker 1: Can I send pizzas to you, um to help feed
Speaker 1: the people who need them? Can I send masks and sanitizer?
Speaker 1: You know, there's there's a lot of ways that we
Speaker 1: can actually be an active part of community and giving
Speaker 1: back that may seem small, but they're big if you
Speaker 1: are in an office, you know, I've actually had people
Speaker 1: say with these corporate responses saying well, I can't you know,
Speaker 1: allocate a line item in the budget to support specific
Speaker 1: political efforts because I'm junior in a team and I would.
Speaker 1: I gave an example of how think about what your
Speaker 1: role in your office, if you're an entrepreneur or you're
Speaker 1: working in a bigger office environment, to think about what
Speaker 1: it is that you do have the power over. UM,
Speaker 1: what companies are you ordering supplies from? So one of
Speaker 1: our junior staffers at my office said, oh, I realized
Speaker 1: that the people who make our bubble wrap that goes
Speaker 1: out with the books are donating to some people who
Speaker 1: are against our values. And so immediately we said, oh,
Speaker 1: we're going to get our bubble wrap from somewhere else,
Speaker 1: and so reallocating those resources to send them to people
Speaker 1: who are making the right investments. If you have stocks,
Speaker 1: do shareholder advocacy. There are things you can request if
Speaker 1: you have a specific number of stocks from different companies
Speaker 1: around their board representation, around their standards, around diversity benchmarks
Speaker 1: and things, and you can weigh in on that. There's
Speaker 1: just so many ways you can also, uh do phone banking.
Speaker 1: You can also help do fundraising if you're someone who's
Speaker 1: good at development um if you can do a friend
Speaker 1: raiser with people and you can unity and do a
Speaker 1: zoom house party and raise money for an organization that
Speaker 1: you care about. And then I also think if you're
Speaker 1: someone who's a content creator like us, you know, make art.
Speaker 1: I think this is a perfect time to make art
Speaker 1: right now. There's so much inspiration, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: time in our homes, and we have an opportunity now
Speaker 1: to create art. That's going to document this moment um
Speaker 1: and also inform the future. So I think that's a
Speaker 1: really important thing. I have this video on my Twitter
Speaker 1: that I penned for a while that has Nina Simone
Speaker 1: during a similar cultural site guys saying that it's your
Speaker 1: duty to create your art, and I feel that right
Speaker 1: now just the various different artistic projects I'm working on.
Speaker 1: My husband, Travis Sullivan, is a jazz musician and he's
Speaker 1: going to drop an album on June teenth, and that's
Speaker 1: the day that band camp is going to uh donate
Speaker 1: all the proceeds to Black Lives Matter. So I think
Speaker 1: there's just many different ways that we can find where
Speaker 1: our drinks lie or our resources lie and be able
Speaker 1: to give them back. And and then I think to
Speaker 1: just on the level of having those hard conversations. So
Speaker 1: maybe it's not the racist uncle that's too far gone,
Speaker 1: you know, to move forward. But if you have a
Speaker 1: person who you know is like in the past, kind
Speaker 1: of apathetic, you know, they may or may not show
Speaker 1: up at elections. They're just kind of trying and do
Speaker 1: what they need to do. They feel like it's too much,
Speaker 1: everything is too big, you know, they can't do it
Speaker 1: to say we're going to go vote together. We're gonna
Speaker 1: you know, either zoom together filling out those apps and
Speaker 1: tee ballots, or if it's open, we're going to go
Speaker 1: together and stand six ft apart and make sure we're
Speaker 1: doing it. You're gonna be my voting buddy and accountability partner.
Speaker 1: We're going to text until it happens and you can
Speaker 1: show me that it's done. Something like that. In this moment,
Speaker 1: I think it's huge. You've got a book called you
Speaker 1: mentioned it earlier, Roadmap for Revolutionaries, which has tons of
Speaker 1: these and you don't have to even consider yourself a revolutionary,
Speaker 1: even if you just want to consider yourself an advocate
Speaker 1: or an ally. Right, there's a lot there. And you know,
Speaker 1: the thing that I always say, and it's just one
Speaker 1: of the mantras of this show, is like do something,
Speaker 1: you know, start small if you need to write, but
Speaker 1: there's always a path forward. And the thing that I
Speaker 1: will say, which I've been sort of sharing with people
Speaker 1: because it's a really small, tangible, easy thing to do
Speaker 1: that I actually think matters. There's an organization called Campaign
Speaker 1: Zero and they've got something called eight Can't Wait. It
Speaker 1: is eight policies that can be implemented at police departments
Speaker 1: around the country that we know from research reduce police brutality.
Speaker 1: And you can go to eight Can't Wait dot com.
Speaker 1: You can find your city, you can find out which
Speaker 1: things have been implemented are not implemented, and you can
Speaker 1: call your mayor and you can call your city council.
Speaker 1: It will take you ten minutes, and it it makes
Speaker 1: a difference. Again, even if we want to get into
Speaker 1: a debate about do we need to go beyond police reform, Yeah, probably,
Speaker 1: but we need police reform in the interim and these things.
Speaker 1: And again it's a ten fifteen minute conversation with your
Speaker 1: mayor and your city council that you can do right now.
Speaker 1: So eight can't Wait dot Com there's your very small,
Speaker 1: very fast you know, if you're not sure what else
Speaker 1: to do, It's a place to start. I love that
Speaker 1: one too. I love it. And I also love the
Speaker 1: resist box, yes, because you can just text letters to
Speaker 1: your congress folks. And I also say for people who
Speaker 1: feel that, oh I live in a quote safe state,
Speaker 1: it still matters, you know. I have been really active
Speaker 1: in New York about sending letters and petitions around artistic
Speaker 1: funding because of all the cuts for COVID nineteen and
Speaker 1: funding for the arts, and so I think, you know,
Speaker 1: sometimes we can fall into this feeling of like, oh,
Speaker 1: I live in New York or I live in California,
Speaker 1: and like, I know that it doesn't matter how I vote,
Speaker 1: when in fact, you know, it really does. And we
Speaker 1: have an opportunity now to even push further than we've
Speaker 1: gone before about doing some really progressive things. So I
Speaker 1: also just like to encourage folks to really think about
Speaker 1: that now, and to think about if you feel called
Speaker 1: to run for office. You know, I know that one's
Speaker 1: a big one, but I like to just say to
Speaker 1: folks that we need people who are really really committed
Speaker 1: to doing things differently. Obviously what has gotten us here
Speaker 1: did not serve us well, and I think that we
Speaker 1: are better served by diversifying the voices that represent the people. Right.
Speaker 1: We these people work for us, We elect them to
Speaker 1: represent us. So I am also a big believer in
Speaker 1: if you feel called to run, it doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: need to run for president. Right. A lot of times
Speaker 1: people think oh, that's what you should run for. You
Speaker 1: could run for school board, you could run for city council. Um,
Speaker 1: you could run for assembly person position in your community.
Speaker 1: But I'm really calling on people who feel called now
Speaker 1: to bring new ideas and new energy and leadership into
Speaker 1: the conversation. That's why I did a whole children's book
Speaker 1: on Alexandria Acascio Cortez, a congresswoman, because I was just
Speaker 1: so inspired that she came in did something like you said,
Speaker 1: and that she was saying, oh, yeah, I'm young, I'm
Speaker 1: Latin X. And her incumbent opponent didn't even think she
Speaker 1: had a chance of winning. He didn't even show up
Speaker 1: to her debate, and she won. So I just I
Speaker 1: tell everyone that if if you even have a fire
Speaker 1: for thinking, if you were elected, really be a strong
Speaker 1: representative for the community and you want to serve the people,
Speaker 1: really consider running. That's wonderful. Yeah, that's a great idea.
Speaker 1: All right, Well, thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 1: I have really loved talking with you. I feel like
Speaker 1: I could do this for three hours, and I have
Speaker 1: so much I could learn from you. UM, you and
Speaker 1: I are going to continue in the post show conversation,
Speaker 1: and what we're going to talk about there is really
Speaker 1: two things I really wanted to talk about in this
Speaker 1: conversation that we didn't get to, which is how to
Speaker 1: balance activism and spirituality and this idea of the moral
Speaker 1: arc bending towards justice and keeping hope while also confronting
Speaker 1: how difficult things are. I think those are really important
Speaker 1: topics we didn't get to listeners. If you want to
Speaker 1: hear the post show conversation and get access to add
Speaker 1: free episodes many episodes, you can go to one you
Speaker 1: feed dot net slash join. So again, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for coming on the show. It's such a pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you on, and thanks for all the work
Speaker 1: you're doing and for being willing to spend some time
Speaker 1: with us. Thank you so much for having mee. If
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