1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,119 Speaker 1: Quality dators. But Joseph's gotten more when you're in the military. 2 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: I know this from experience son that served as well. 3 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: I think just about every generation in my family has 4 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 1: served one way or another, going all the way back 5 00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 1: to the Revolutionary War. But when you're in the military, 6 00:00:24,880 --> 00:00:27,480 Speaker 1: one of the things that they try to terrify you 7 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:34,000 Speaker 1: with early on is the U SUM JAY and the 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,920 Speaker 1: U CUM JAY is a uniform code of military justice. 9 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:39,879 Speaker 1: And even when you're in whether it's boot camp or 10 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,479 Speaker 1: basic training, you know, whatever branch you're in, they'll call 11 00:00:43,560 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 1: it one of those two things. The drill instructor drill sergeant, 12 00:00:49,000 --> 00:00:55,200 Speaker 1: whatever the Navy calls theirs. They'll say things like, you're 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:01:00,840 Speaker 1: going to get punished vis vis the US and you 14 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: see him Jay, and it'll be some minor thing, these 15 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: various articles that they use, and it'll go into your jacket, 16 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 1: and so you're always under that, under that threat in 17 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: the military, and of course you see him Jay is 18 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:28,520 Speaker 1: prosecuted by Jack. That's the office of Judge Advocate General. 19 00:01:29,280 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: There was even a television show that was named Jack. 20 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: I think I never watched it, but it was there. 21 00:01:35,520 --> 00:01:40,280 Speaker 1: Today on Bodybags, we're going to have a discussion about 22 00:01:40,319 --> 00:01:47,760 Speaker 1: the forensics surrounding a former jack officer, a former JAG 23 00:01:47,840 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 1: officer that is currently on trial for dismembering his wife. 24 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:05,800 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is body bags, Dave. 25 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:09,960 Speaker 1: I've always held to this premise, and I teach kids this, 26 00:02:10,080 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: particularly like incoming freshmen, that if you hold yourself up 27 00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:26,040 Speaker 1: in a place of esteem, whether you're a politician, a prosecutor, 28 00:02:27,120 --> 00:02:31,639 Speaker 1: a preacher, a priest, it doesn't matter. You hold yourself 29 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:36,119 Speaker 1: up because you're kind of that moral benchmark for everybody. 30 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:43,279 Speaker 1: When you fall, the crash resonates. I mean, it has heard, 31 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,919 Speaker 1: you know far and why because you know, we live 32 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,239 Speaker 1: in a society some people would say we live in 33 00:02:50,280 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: a post Christian society. There are not a lot of 34 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:56,160 Speaker 1: moral benchmarks that are out there, and so from a 35 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:01,680 Speaker 1: secular standpoint, people that are in service positions. I mean, 36 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 1: just think about police officers. You know, if a police 37 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:07,919 Speaker 1: officer violates the law, and it might be a law 38 00:03:07,919 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: that's being violated by civilian, you don't hear anything about 39 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,840 Speaker 1: the civilian case at all. But if a police officer 40 00:03:16,919 --> 00:03:21,200 Speaker 1: gets pulled over for DUI or writing a bad check 41 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:23,960 Speaker 1: or something like that, dude, that's going to make the newspaper. 42 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:29,480 Speaker 1: It's going to make the newspaper. And most of the time, 43 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:31,680 Speaker 1: and I think all of the time, I don't have 44 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: a lot of sympathy for any of these people because 45 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 1: you should know better. You're actually holding yourself out when 46 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:40,480 Speaker 1: you take these positions. You're holding yourself out saying I 47 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 1: can do this. They should have known better. And I 48 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,480 Speaker 1: got to tell you, Dave, this case that we're talking 49 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:56,240 Speaker 1: about today involving Nicholas casotis he should have known better. 50 00:03:56,680 --> 00:04:01,160 Speaker 2: But this Jag guy, he's accused that he is accused 51 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 2: of heinous crime Joe and it is I actually labeled 52 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:11,840 Speaker 2: this Joe Scott Morgan's playground because as I was looking 53 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:17,000 Speaker 2: at this, it was in a hunting area in a 54 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 2: hunters hunting club in Georgia, and I was thinking about 55 00:04:22,160 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 2: Murdau and his whole hunting club thing, you know. And 56 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,159 Speaker 2: we're not that far away here, We're in the outside 57 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:32,160 Speaker 2: of Savannah, Georgia, and this hunting club. All of a sudden, 58 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 2: hunters start finding pieces of body and some are found 59 00:04:39,480 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 2: in a three area a three mile area circumference, an 60 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: area covering three miles and it's on this property of 61 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: this hunting club. 62 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:51,679 Speaker 1: Not only in this radius that you're talking about, dude, 63 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: this extended over to count them two counties. I've never 64 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,840 Speaker 1: I have never and I know, look, county lines are 65 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:07,760 Speaker 1: imaginary boundaries, Okay, it doesn't. Those are boundaries that have 66 00:05:07,839 --> 00:05:10,520 Speaker 1: been set up by politicians over the years. And Georgia, 67 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 1: by the way, has some of the smallest counties because 68 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: they have the largest number of counties east of the 69 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 1: Mississippi out of any state in the Union, they have 70 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,040 Speaker 1: more counties than any other state. A lot of people 71 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: don't realize that. I mean, even if you go up 72 00:05:24,400 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 1: to to pa or New York or any of those 73 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: places up there, they don't match that number. And it's 74 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,200 Speaker 1: a huge number. So the counties are small. But when 75 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 1: I saw that, when I saw that these remains are 76 00:05:37,160 --> 00:05:40,440 Speaker 1: being found not only in the primary location, but are 77 00:05:40,480 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 1: scattered like this, I got to tell you, dude, I've 78 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 1: never heard of this. This. I think this is new. 79 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 2: Having it in a different county means a separate jurisdiction 80 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 2: now has control over that, right. I mean, if I've 81 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: fined a leg in Calderon County and somebody else finds 82 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:58,920 Speaker 2: it in Cherokee County, even though it's a half mile 83 00:05:58,960 --> 00:06:02,000 Speaker 2: away from one another. Well, that leg belongs to Cherokee 84 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:06,120 Speaker 2: County and this one belongs to Calhoun County. We think 85 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:08,120 Speaker 2: they're from the same person, but they might not be. 86 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,320 Speaker 1: Well, yeah, you're right, and let me address that real quick, 87 00:06:11,320 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: because that's an excellent point and you're spot on if 88 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:20,920 Speaker 1: you find an element of a body in that particular county. 89 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 1: First off, one county might not know what the other 90 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,440 Speaker 1: county is doing because they're busy with their own stuff. Okay, 91 00:06:29,839 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 1: But if you have two hunters that come in, or 92 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 1: one hunter that comes in and says our calls you 93 00:06:34,480 --> 00:06:36,040 Speaker 1: and says, look, I need you to come out here. 94 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: I think I just found a human foot okay, or 95 00:06:39,960 --> 00:06:43,120 Speaker 1: I found a hand or whatever it is. I can 96 00:06:43,160 --> 00:06:45,719 Speaker 1: tell you they're going to hop on their ponies and 97 00:06:45,800 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: head out. They're coming out there to take a look 98 00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:50,480 Speaker 1: at this. Then they get their detectives involved in it, 99 00:06:51,160 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know, a word 100 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: hits the grapevine and they find out that, oh yeah, 101 00:06:57,320 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: we've got dismembered remains that are being recover in an 102 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,800 Speaker 1: adjacent county. The trick is to try to understand where 103 00:07:04,839 --> 00:07:10,480 Speaker 1: the actual crime was committed. Here's another thing, how were 104 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: they deposited? Were these actually deposited or did you have 105 00:07:14,480 --> 00:07:19,800 Speaker 1: a fox, a raccoon, a coyote, which they have got 106 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,200 Speaker 1: tons of them. You know what else? You got down 107 00:07:22,200 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 1: in South Georgia just like we do in South Alabama 108 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 1: our wild hogs. Dude, they're everywhere. They're an invasive species. 109 00:07:30,120 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 1: So you have this opportunity for these elements of the 110 00:07:34,560 --> 00:07:38,520 Speaker 1: body to be picked up and dispersed, and then you 111 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: have to factor in the human bit of this. Was 112 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: this something that a perpetrator said, you know what, I'm 113 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: going to put this here in this county and here 114 00:07:47,640 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: in the other county and I'll just disperse them. So 115 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,440 Speaker 1: you have to try to understand that. And so when 116 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,600 Speaker 1: you get into the examination of these remains, you're going 117 00:07:57,680 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 1: to have to look for things like like the trauma 118 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 1: that sustained in the dismemberment, and you'll also have to 119 00:08:05,320 --> 00:08:11,239 Speaker 1: look for because that's going to be post mortem maybe 120 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,760 Speaker 1: and any animal activity is going to be post mortem 121 00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:17,840 Speaker 1: as well. So this makes this doubly complex, Dave. 122 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 2: And again, other than having all of the other people 123 00:08:24,080 --> 00:08:26,040 Speaker 2: involved in all it, now you're also dealing with a 124 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:30,880 Speaker 2: military guy ex military, but when you first find the 125 00:08:30,920 --> 00:08:33,160 Speaker 2: pieces of body, you don't know who they belong to, 126 00:08:33,240 --> 00:08:36,200 Speaker 2: so it only becomes a military thing later on. But 127 00:08:36,520 --> 00:08:41,800 Speaker 2: do former military people get treated differently in the civilian world? Okay, 128 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 2: so they're just like you and me, even if they're 129 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:46,520 Speaker 2: a retired military they don't have like a specialty that. 130 00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: We're being treated differently in the civilian world as if 131 00:08:49,280 --> 00:08:54,160 Speaker 1: they if they committed a crime while still on the 132 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:57,080 Speaker 1: books with the military, and you can be drugged back 133 00:08:57,120 --> 00:09:01,840 Speaker 1: in based upon that, you know, if they discover some case, 134 00:09:02,720 --> 00:09:07,040 Speaker 1: well case that we covered not too long ago, and 135 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: that's Jeffrey McDonald's case, you know, the military, even though 136 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 1: he's out and he's living his life low those many 137 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: years after he was Oh my god, I hate to 138 00:09:17,160 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: even say it acquitted. 139 00:09:19,679 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: Well, that was a military article thirty two hearing. 140 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:25,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was, and right, and it took place on post. 141 00:09:26,559 --> 00:09:32,320 Speaker 1: That's a triple homicide that took place at BRAG. I'm 142 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 1: not laughing. I'm not laughing out of joy. I'm just 143 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:41,080 Speaker 1: saying it's so that case is so absurd. Yeah, I mean, 144 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:43,040 Speaker 1: and I know how you feel about it. It's so 145 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:46,319 Speaker 1: absolutely absurd. But yeah, once you're discharged from the military, 146 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,480 Speaker 1: anything that you do in the civilian world, you're gonna 147 00:09:50,480 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: have to answer to the man outside the fence at 148 00:09:52,480 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 1: that point in tom and so that's that's how that 149 00:09:55,640 --> 00:10:00,000 Speaker 1: would be handled. But the one saving grace here, even 150 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:05,400 Speaker 1: you know you've got distribution in multiple counties, the default 151 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,800 Speaker 1: position in most of these rural counties, and this kind 152 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:12,760 Speaker 1: of applies nationwide, particularly when it comes to corners offices. 153 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: First off, those remains are not going to go to 154 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:21,080 Speaker 1: the individual counties to be examined. They're all going to 155 00:10:21,080 --> 00:10:25,800 Speaker 1: be batched and sent to the GBI, who controls the 156 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:28,760 Speaker 1: state medical Examiner, which I don't I'm not a fan 157 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,320 Speaker 1: of that model because I don't think the law I 158 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: don't think any law enforcement agency should control the corner 159 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,120 Speaker 1: or the medical examiner. They need to be two completely 160 00:10:37,240 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 1: separate entities. They in Georgia, they are the state medical 161 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:46,679 Speaker 1: Examiner answers to the head of the chief law enforcement 162 00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 1: agency in State of Georgia, and then they're going to 163 00:10:49,840 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 1: put their agents on it as well. So that's in 164 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:56,240 Speaker 1: one sense, that's a saving grace. So instead of having 165 00:10:57,040 --> 00:11:03,160 Speaker 1: two sheriff's offices or even two corners offices trying to 166 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: collate information and all that. You've got this one central 167 00:11:07,559 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: repository of data, investigative data that's being controlled by the GBI, 168 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: all right, and also they're in house medical examiner that's 169 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:19,280 Speaker 1: conducting the examinations and trying to get answers. 170 00:11:19,840 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 2: Right now, let me ask you this show because we 171 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 2: have remains being found on this hunting property. Yeah, and 172 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,800 Speaker 2: they're not all found at one time. They're found over 173 00:11:30,840 --> 00:11:33,079 Speaker 2: a period of time and as you mentioned, spread over 174 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:37,559 Speaker 2: two counties. When that first call comes in from a 175 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 2: hunter saying I think I found something that might be human, 176 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:43,760 Speaker 2: because a lot of times what you find you kind 177 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: of look at and go, I've been a hunter for 178 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,080 Speaker 2: a long time, but out in the woods a long time. 179 00:11:47,240 --> 00:11:49,679 Speaker 2: This does not look like any animal I've ever seen before. 180 00:11:49,720 --> 00:11:52,360 Speaker 2: This is this looks more human. But I don't know, 181 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:54,320 Speaker 2: and I know you've told me, and this is what 182 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:56,719 Speaker 2: I had no idea of until we started doing this. 183 00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:59,520 Speaker 2: That many times when you guys get called out to 184 00:11:59,559 --> 00:12:02,280 Speaker 2: look for because somebody found bones in their backyard and 185 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 2: it ended up being chicken or a pig or whatever. Yeah, 186 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:07,800 Speaker 2: hog yeah, it wasn't a human. It was just an 187 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 2: old bone. So conversely, if you see something that you 188 00:12:11,200 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 2: know is not an animal, I mean, especially in this case, 189 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,360 Speaker 2: we don't even know how long they've been out there. 190 00:12:17,559 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: You don't know if the person was gotten the freezer 191 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 2: and cut up and then dispersed years later. 192 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: You have no idea. 193 00:12:22,880 --> 00:12:25,080 Speaker 2: So how do you start so uncovering this. 194 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,839 Speaker 1: Well, the first thing you have to do is and 195 00:12:28,080 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: it starts. It starts with what you just put out there. 196 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: You know, are these human remains? Are these remains that 197 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: the investigator will have to dig into, that the medical 198 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 1: examiner will have to dig into. But the trick here 199 00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:50,600 Speaker 1: and the key to this is gathering all the data 200 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 1: bringing it back to the lab, and that's where the 201 00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: true investigation begins. David, all my years of working in 202 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 1: the field and then and then teaching, really it's really 203 00:13:24,040 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: hard to say that I have seen a composite sketch 204 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: or even a clay model or digital model that is 205 00:13:35,320 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: right on the money as far as who an individual 206 00:13:41,160 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 1: is okay in life, because look, if you've got an 207 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:48,640 Speaker 1: image that has been generated or a model that has 208 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: been generated, you're doing that for the purpose of getting 209 00:13:51,800 --> 00:13:55,360 Speaker 1: an ID and so you don't know who they are. 210 00:13:56,080 --> 00:14:00,040 Speaker 1: But Dave, you had an interesting perspective on this image 211 00:14:00,120 --> 00:14:04,520 Speaker 1: of the victim in this case. What was it you 212 00:14:04,559 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: just said just a second ago about this relative to 213 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: her appearance? 214 00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: Okay, they did a based on they didn't know who 215 00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 2: they had, They did not know whose remains they had, 216 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,959 Speaker 2: and they were trying to figure out. And over the 217 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 2: years we've seen recreations based on different bones found of 218 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:27,400 Speaker 2: a victim, and a recreation of the skull will be 219 00:14:27,440 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: done based on whatever information they have on the bones, 220 00:14:32,200 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 2: and very rarely do they look like the person. But 221 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: in this case they did using the DNA they developed 222 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 2: and the different bones that they had, and they created 223 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,200 Speaker 2: I guess AI created it. You know, in the computer 224 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 2: they can created a composite sketch of what this woman 225 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 2: might have looked like and side by side. Once they 226 00:14:54,920 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 2: knew who it was and put it up there. I 227 00:14:57,200 --> 00:15:01,400 Speaker 2: was shocked at how close they came based on what 228 00:15:01,440 --> 00:15:03,520 Speaker 2: they had to work with. And I mean, Joe, I 229 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,840 Speaker 2: thought it was two pictures of the same person. I 230 00:15:05,880 --> 00:15:07,800 Speaker 2: didn't know that that was what they came up with. 231 00:15:08,280 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: Well, let me let me tell you this. For our purposes. 232 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: The The image that you saw is arguably generated by 233 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: one of the finest forensic artists in America, and she 234 00:15:28,000 --> 00:15:37,040 Speaker 1: actually does work for the GBI, and it's I gotta 235 00:15:37,120 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 1: tell you, it's it's spot on as far as one 236 00:15:41,520 --> 00:15:44,200 Speaker 1: of these renderings can be. And I think probably the 237 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,560 Speaker 1: most captivating thing about the image that was generated are 238 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:56,800 Speaker 1: the eyes because Mindy, the victim, she had these real 239 00:15:57,240 --> 00:15:59,400 Speaker 1: I guess people would call them doe eyes. You know, 240 00:15:59,440 --> 00:16:05,200 Speaker 1: they're real, big and beautiful, you know, and this rendering 241 00:16:05,880 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: kind of captures that. And you know what's so hard 242 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:12,120 Speaker 1: about this that many times all they're working with is 243 00:16:12,120 --> 00:16:17,120 Speaker 1: a skull. So how do you arrive at this point 244 00:16:17,240 --> 00:16:19,720 Speaker 1: where you're doing it? This is what's kind of amazing 245 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,760 Speaker 1: about it. How do you arrive at this point where 246 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 1: you have a skull that is completely stripped of all 247 00:16:27,880 --> 00:16:33,840 Speaker 1: identifying markers as far as skin thickness, oh, the tone 248 00:16:33,880 --> 00:16:37,080 Speaker 1: of the skin, hair color, because most of the time 249 00:16:37,120 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: with hair color, unless you find strands perhaps with the skull, 250 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:44,520 Speaker 1: and that does happen. Now you'll still find bits of 251 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:50,720 Speaker 1: like the scalp that are attached attached to the skull. 252 00:16:50,880 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: And there's kind of a membrane that's called fascia that 253 00:16:56,000 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: attaches the scalp to the skull. And many times those 254 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: attachments still exist even you know, maybe an animal has 255 00:17:05,600 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: been feasting post mortem, they might not get everything. You'll 256 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:13,520 Speaker 1: find actually strands of hair, and that artist can look 257 00:17:13,520 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 1: at that hair be given a descriptor of it. As 258 00:17:16,280 --> 00:17:18,879 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, they can take the hair to 259 00:17:18,960 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: the hair and fiber section in a crime lab, Dave. 260 00:17:22,000 --> 00:17:24,120 Speaker 1: They can look at the hair a hair strand under 261 00:17:24,119 --> 00:17:27,680 Speaker 1: a microscope and they can tell you if the hair 262 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 1: is dyed. They can also tell you how long ago 263 00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:36,240 Speaker 1: it was dyed, because you've got these kind of human 264 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:39,199 Speaker 1: hair looks like the sheet itself kind of looks like 265 00:17:39,640 --> 00:17:43,560 Speaker 1: it looks like scales, and it grows out and you'll 266 00:17:43,600 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: see those you know how you see people that my 267 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:48,359 Speaker 1: wife has talked about this and like Cassi and his 268 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:54,159 Speaker 1: versions here when people get black roots, okay, and like 269 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:58,560 Speaker 1: they've got blonde hair on the ends, that's the hair 270 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:02,199 Speaker 1: growing out. You get a strand of that hair, you 271 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:07,080 Speaker 1: can do an approximation for how long it's been since 272 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,439 Speaker 1: the hair was dyed. Because we hair grows at a 273 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:14,080 Speaker 1: predictable rate, all right, So when you're looking at that. 274 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:15,919 Speaker 1: If there's any color on the hair, you can get 275 00:18:16,000 --> 00:18:18,080 Speaker 1: idea of the color. So you take that data and 276 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:20,639 Speaker 1: plug it into what the artist is going to do 277 00:18:20,680 --> 00:18:23,639 Speaker 1: as far as the rendering goes. And David, I agree 278 00:18:23,680 --> 00:18:29,960 Speaker 1: with you, man, this image is striking. It's absolutely striking. 279 00:18:31,359 --> 00:18:34,359 Speaker 2: I was amazed, truly that I wasn't looking at two 280 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 2: photos of the same person. That's what shocked me. But 281 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:39,960 Speaker 2: here's where they started, Joe. The initial remains, Okay, what 282 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 2: I actually found the very first thing that was put 283 00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 2: out after finding partial remains. The initial report was partial 284 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 2: remains of a white female discovered at the Portal Hunting 285 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,600 Speaker 2: Clubs spread over a three mile radies. Now, based on 286 00:18:55,640 --> 00:18:58,040 Speaker 2: the information they had on how they did this, they 287 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: believe they know and this was found in twenty twenty two. 288 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 2: They believed that the remains have been placed in that 289 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:11,200 Speaker 2: area November twenty seventh of twenty twenty two. Around that date. Now, 290 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: I don't know how they came up with that, but 291 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:15,560 Speaker 2: they did. And it went on to say the remains 292 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: of that of a white female with brown eyes, shoulder 293 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 2: length brown hair, approximately five nine to five ten in height, 294 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:23,679 Speaker 2: approximately one hundred and eighty five to two hundred pounds, 295 00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 2: with an age range of twenty to fifty years old. 296 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:29,199 Speaker 2: She was forty, just to give you an idea, she 297 00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 2: was forty. 298 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:30,560 Speaker 1: Yeah. 299 00:19:30,560 --> 00:19:33,560 Speaker 2: The body had no scars, marks, or tattoos. So we're 300 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: not talking about skeletonized remains here. We know that. But Joe, 301 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,119 Speaker 2: how do you start with this and end up finding 302 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 2: a person if if they've never been fingerprinted and they've 303 00:19:47,119 --> 00:19:49,679 Speaker 2: never had their DNA in the system. How do you 304 00:19:49,880 --> 00:19:53,679 Speaker 2: find out any information about this when you only have 305 00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:54,520 Speaker 2: partial remains? 306 00:19:54,600 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: I love this question. I get this question all the time, 307 00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:01,520 Speaker 1: and I love that you've asked so I can hold forth. 308 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:06,280 Speaker 1: This is why it makes it difficult, because I've had 309 00:20:06,280 --> 00:20:09,840 Speaker 1: so many people approach me over the years about cases 310 00:20:09,880 --> 00:20:13,760 Speaker 1: they're interested in, and it involved either an unknown perpetrator 311 00:20:13,840 --> 00:20:15,600 Speaker 1: or an unknown person to say, why don't you just 312 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:22,000 Speaker 1: do DNA? What does that even mean? Do DNA? I mean, 313 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:29,640 Speaker 1: you know you can. You can collect DNA from a decedent, okay, 314 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 1: And there's multiple methods to do that, and you can 315 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,399 Speaker 1: create a DNA profile on an individual. You can go 316 00:20:38,480 --> 00:20:42,080 Speaker 1: back generations, and you can talk about their ethnic origins 317 00:20:42,119 --> 00:20:46,920 Speaker 1: and all these sorts of things. But my man, if 318 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,639 Speaker 1: you ain't got nothing in the system to compare it to. 319 00:20:50,760 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: It goes back to what I always say, the data 320 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: ain't worth gunpowdered blow at hell. Same thing with fingerprints, 321 00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,960 Speaker 1: if you recover a latent print at a scene, or 322 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,200 Speaker 1: if you recover like in the More for instance, I'll 323 00:21:04,240 --> 00:21:06,200 Speaker 1: tell you this. I think we've had this discussion. We 324 00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,560 Speaker 1: talked about so much, you know, after over four hundred 325 00:21:09,560 --> 00:21:16,719 Speaker 1: episodes with say you've got a desiccated hand or a 326 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:23,200 Speaker 1: finger and obviously have to have tissue We go in 327 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: and we inject those fingers with tissue builder like they 328 00:21:27,240 --> 00:21:30,239 Speaker 1: use at the funeral home to you know, so that 329 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:33,360 Speaker 1: the dead don't have that sunken appearance. They'll put tissue 330 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:40,280 Speaker 1: builder in there and it causes the element to regain 331 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: kind of a natural appearance, and you can roll a 332 00:21:43,000 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: print off of that. Well, if the person that you 333 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,560 Speaker 1: have that is unknown, you roll a print off of them. 334 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: If they're not you know, in the system n c IC, 335 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: then you're you're not going to get a hit on 336 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:04,560 Speaker 1: them fingerprint wise, so it's great to take them. You know. Obviously, look, 337 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:07,280 Speaker 1: we've got a lot of bright listeners and you know 338 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:12,720 Speaker 1: where I'm going with this, Dave. You know that as 339 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 1: keen as our folks are, they understand that you've got 340 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:21,119 Speaker 1: to collect the DNA from a variety of you know, 341 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: this is the thing. If you've got remains scattered about 342 00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:30,280 Speaker 1: all of these various elements of the body, you have 343 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:34,640 Speaker 1: to find that remains that's got the most viable tissue 344 00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: on it. And that's what makes this very unique. So 345 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: when you're thinking about how do we do this, well, 346 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:50,159 Speaker 1: whatever has biological viability as far as a collection of 347 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,399 Speaker 1: sample goes, if you can collect that, and then with 348 00:22:54,600 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 1: the image, you know that you have this lady that's missing. 349 00:22:59,119 --> 00:23:01,679 Speaker 1: When it comes time and when you get closer to 350 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:04,399 Speaker 1: narrowing your feel down, this is how you're going to 351 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: get her identified. You're going to go to her family, 352 00:23:09,040 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: those that are in her specific gene pool, and you're 353 00:23:14,119 --> 00:23:21,680 Speaker 1: going to request samples from them Mama, sisters, brothers, daddy. 354 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:25,080 Speaker 1: I mean, you could do more distant relatives, but if 355 00:23:25,080 --> 00:23:29,639 Speaker 1: you can concentrate in on those those core groups in 356 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 1: her familial environment, you compare their DNA. But at this 357 00:23:36,840 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 1: point in time in the investigation, they're just collecting remains, man, 358 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: I mean, they're not. It's not like they have it's 359 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,240 Speaker 1: not like they you know, you do this and you 360 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: know exactly, you know who you're going to go to. Remember, 361 00:23:52,640 --> 00:23:58,879 Speaker 1: she she they believe, prosecutors believe she was actually a 362 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:04,399 Speaker 1: victim Hamsi victim in twenty twenty two. There was not 363 00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:08,960 Speaker 1: actually an arrest affected in this case until twenty twenty three. 364 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: So you know, you're trying to work all of this 365 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:16,120 Speaker 1: stuff out. And of course, my abiding principle in any 366 00:24:16,200 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: case is particularly when it comes to the unknown, when 367 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:23,360 Speaker 1: it comes to those individuals that we don't know who 368 00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:28,880 Speaker 1: they are. When you get the identity of an individual 369 00:24:29,640 --> 00:24:35,680 Speaker 1: and you find out who they are, everything else becomes 370 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: a lot more clear. You know what I mean by that. 371 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: I've stated trying to get people identified, and it's like 372 00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:58,280 Speaker 1: pulling the string on sweater. Mama always tells you not 373 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,399 Speaker 1: to pull because it's going to come unraveled. Well, in 374 00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:05,679 Speaker 1: our case, in the forensic world, we wanted to come unraveled. 375 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:08,240 Speaker 1: I want to see where the thread leads, if you will, 376 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:16,640 Speaker 1: and if you can find out who Once an individual 377 00:25:16,680 --> 00:25:20,760 Speaker 1: is identified, automatically you have entree into their world where 378 00:25:20,800 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: you can begin to try to understand who exactly is 379 00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:30,880 Speaker 1: in their sphere, who's in their orbit? Dave, And look, 380 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:35,919 Speaker 1: we know because it's very rare that you actually have 381 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:44,720 Speaker 1: a dismembered remain that is not tied back to a homicide. 382 00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,199 Speaker 1: There's one case I remember, and forgive me, I know 383 00:25:48,400 --> 00:25:51,240 Speaker 1: that people listening will know this. There was the case 384 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:53,960 Speaker 1: down in Florida where the guy was He was a 385 00:25:54,080 --> 00:25:56,720 Speaker 1: judge that had been forced to retire, and his son 386 00:25:56,960 --> 00:25:59,680 Speaker 1: was a lawyer. But he was a druggie. I don't 387 00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,040 Speaker 1: know if you remember this case. He killed his I mean, 388 00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,199 Speaker 1: he and his dad had been doing coke in the 389 00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: apartment adjacent to a a golf club and he they 390 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,720 Speaker 1: still to this day, they still have yet to find 391 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:19,200 Speaker 1: the dad, who's in his seventies doing coke. By the way, 392 00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 1: they still have yet to find his head to this day. 393 00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:26,920 Speaker 1: You know, and the kid went to I say, kid, 394 00:26:26,960 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: he's a grown man. But the child of the man 395 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: actually did go to trial for abusive a corpse I think, 396 00:26:34,840 --> 00:26:36,720 Speaker 1: but he wasn't charged with the home side. But that's 397 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,080 Speaker 1: that's an outlier, Dave. Every single case, and you and 398 00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:43,560 Speaker 1: I actually did an entire episode based on dismemberment. All 399 00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:48,400 Speaker 1: these cases. We were we were handling. If you if 400 00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:53,320 Speaker 1: you think about this, why else would you dismember a body? Well, 401 00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:59,480 Speaker 1: you you have it goes to utility of disposal. Most 402 00:26:59,520 --> 00:27:02,480 Speaker 1: of these people think that, well, the smaller, smaller I 403 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,120 Speaker 1: can make this body, the easier it is to get 404 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: rid of the body. Okay, and it makes it complex. 405 00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: But what's really unclear at this point. I think in 406 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: this case, the Casoda's case is where these remains, they're 407 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:28,320 Speaker 1: saying scattered. I have visions of Johnny Appleseed walking across 408 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,720 Speaker 1: the countryside and you know where the big say, you know, 409 00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:33,280 Speaker 1: you always see him with the big sack on the 410 00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: side and he's like tossing out tossing out seeds. Was 411 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: it that kind of thing? Or where the individual remains were? 412 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:50,080 Speaker 1: They just surface depositions? And it sounds to me everything 413 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: that we hear at this point that these were surface depositions. 414 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:56,600 Speaker 1: Where you've got because you've got people finding these, dave. 415 00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,439 Speaker 2: And that's kind of where I was headed with all 416 00:27:59,480 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 2: of those. How how do you as an investigator somebody 417 00:28:05,000 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 2: comes to you with an armor a leg and you 418 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:08,959 Speaker 2: have no idea of who it belongs to, You've got 419 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,359 Speaker 2: no clue, You're starting with nothing. Yeah, and again unless 420 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:17,160 Speaker 2: there DNA is in the system or something that identifies them, 421 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 2: all you really and I'm not please don't understand. I'm 422 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:21,840 Speaker 2: not trying to be flipping here. But all you have 423 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:23,680 Speaker 2: is an arm or a leg. You don't have any 424 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,199 Speaker 2: means of identifying. It's just and so as an investigator, 425 00:28:27,240 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: you go, Okay, we can probably identify. Can you identify 426 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,520 Speaker 2: the gender of an individual based on a bone? 427 00:28:35,800 --> 00:28:41,840 Speaker 1: Oh? Yeah, yeah, scale you know, if I remember correctly, 428 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 1: we did an episode on anthropology not too long ago 429 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:51,120 Speaker 1: and we talk about with bones in particular, gender can 430 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: be determined. First off, Pelvis's is the number one location. Okay, okay, 431 00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: it was the birth canals, water and women than it 432 00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,120 Speaker 1: is and dudes. But the other thing is that with 433 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,280 Speaker 1: female bones, I love this word, and I've used it 434 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 1: for years. I try to find I try to go 435 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:12,840 Speaker 1: to parties and find a reason to use this word female. 436 00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: Female female bones are what are referred to as grassisle, 437 00:29:17,360 --> 00:29:22,480 Speaker 1: which means they're fine, they're they're more diminutive, whereas male 438 00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: bones tend to be robust. Now, there's certain parameters you 439 00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,400 Speaker 1: have to you have to look at with that. Race 440 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,560 Speaker 1: impacts that, particularly if you're talking about any racial grouping 441 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:39,960 Speaker 1: that involves anyone in Asian communities, because those skeletons and guys, 442 00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,880 Speaker 1: I got to tell you, we're all different. Just get 443 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: used to that. Asian communities they tend to be more diminutive. 444 00:29:48,320 --> 00:29:51,680 Speaker 1: You know, if you look at somebody like, I don't know, 445 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: like a montag Yard, you know, who's very diminutive. That 446 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 1: work with our guys here in Vietnam, they're even more 447 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: minuative than the people that would be considered Viemmese, if 448 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: you can imagine that, because the Vietnese are very diminutive. 449 00:30:06,720 --> 00:30:11,600 Speaker 1: So you have a male, a male bone from that 450 00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:16,480 Speaker 1: population that might actually give it, you have to be 451 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:19,200 Speaker 1: very careful because the male bone from that that Asian 452 00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: population might actually look like a female, an adult female 453 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: from another population. Okay, that's not associated with that, So 454 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 1: it's not They like to say it's exacting, but it's 455 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,520 Speaker 1: not exacting. You have to understand there's certain parameters that 456 00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: you have to work within. And so yeah, in answer 457 00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,000 Speaker 1: to your question that these are skeletal remains, which it 458 00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 1: sounds like there were still some tissue on these remains, 459 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,080 Speaker 1: you would have to take that into consideration because you're 460 00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 1: probably not just dealing with purely skeletal remains. Now, with 461 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: most skeletal remains, you're going to have a shot, at 462 00:30:58,120 --> 00:31:02,920 Speaker 1: least even if it's small, with getting a DNA sample 463 00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: from them, and that might mean you know, drilling down 464 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,479 Speaker 1: into the bone, you know, to exact it from the marrow, 465 00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 1: that area, that portion of the anatomy of the bone, 466 00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,000 Speaker 1: and to draw it out from there. But if you've 467 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: got teeth that are left behind, you know, which is 468 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:25,000 Speaker 1: in my opinion, one of the best sources with skeletal remains, 469 00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: But you still have soft tissues. It all depends on 470 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:30,840 Speaker 1: how viable this tissue is. Dave. 471 00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 2: You know the amazing thing about this case, Joe, beyond 472 00:31:34,600 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 2: the fact that they were able to identify the woman 473 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,400 Speaker 2: and go after her husband, I will tell you that 474 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,440 Speaker 2: we could do twenty stories. We do twenty episodes on 475 00:31:43,680 --> 00:31:47,320 Speaker 2: this man and this couple and the death and what 476 00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 2: it took place. Because I want to give you one 477 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,240 Speaker 2: little tip. Yeah, you know, oftentimes when we have a 478 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 2: guy's name in this case, Nicholas James cassotis right, that's 479 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: his name. His wife's name is Mindy Mebane castis they 480 00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 2: were both forty years old when when I was when 481 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,400 Speaker 2: she passed. But you know what he has. He has 482 00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 2: the old AKA also known as uh oh, Nicholas Killian Stark. Now, Joe, 483 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: I'm just going to throw this out there. Okay, a 484 00:32:16,200 --> 00:32:19,120 Speaker 2: name tells a name that an adult picks, you know, 485 00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,680 Speaker 2: that they make up, tells me a lot about somebody. 486 00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:25,840 Speaker 2: In this case, Nicholas Killian Stark. Where does the name 487 00:32:25,920 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 2: Killian and where does the name Stark come? For iron Man? 488 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:34,600 Speaker 2: Iron Man three? Yeah, Killian was the bad guy Stark 489 00:32:34,680 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 2: of course, Tony Stark. So this guy named makes up 490 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:40,280 Speaker 2: a name from you know, the movie. I'm sure it's 491 00:32:40,280 --> 00:32:42,080 Speaker 2: in the comic book. First, Just so you know, I 492 00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:43,720 Speaker 2: have no clue. I've never read a comic book in 493 00:32:43,720 --> 00:32:47,120 Speaker 2: my life. Mad Magazine was a comic book to me. Yeah, 494 00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 2: I never read those. I mean, you know I read comics. 495 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 2: I never read comic books. But anyway, I digress. But 496 00:32:53,480 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 2: that was also known as Nicholas Killian Stark told me 497 00:32:56,320 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 2: everything he needed to go about this free show. So 498 00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 2: now you've got a missing woman. Your wife is missing. 499 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,480 Speaker 2: By the way, they were also moving around a lot. 500 00:33:05,600 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 2: Joe as a couple Mindy and Nicholas where they were switching. 501 00:33:10,120 --> 00:33:15,120 Speaker 2: It was almost like never spending the same night, spending 502 00:33:15,120 --> 00:33:16,760 Speaker 2: a night in the same place twice kind of thing. 503 00:33:19,120 --> 00:33:20,960 Speaker 2: They claimed that he was trying to dodge out of 504 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:24,640 Speaker 2: a one point five million dollar judgment from his first marriage. 505 00:33:25,360 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 2: There's also if there are other stories of corrupt government 506 00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,400 Speaker 2: and people chasing him. I mean, he has created an 507 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:37,080 Speaker 2: underlying story here that his defense attorney. I'm not kidding 508 00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 2: when I tell you, Joe, at the end of every 509 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: day he is sitting out on a balcony somewhere, drinking 510 00:33:43,200 --> 00:33:46,640 Speaker 2: a bottle of Scotch and choking down a cigar, praying 511 00:33:46,680 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 2: to Night's not the night I jump because the story 512 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:52,000 Speaker 2: this guy's making him tell is that ridiculous. 513 00:33:52,200 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, and what makes it interest I saw one little 514 00:33:55,200 --> 00:34:00,400 Speaker 1: quip about this. They've actually gone into CIA conspiracy with 515 00:34:00,440 --> 00:34:05,840 Speaker 1: this case. And of course, anytime you're with the military, 516 00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 1: you know, you can have these kind of tethers that 517 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: you know, and it might be you may have met 518 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: somebody from the agency, or maybe you were in an 519 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: embassy somewhere at some point in time unemployment, and yeah, 520 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:21,520 Speaker 1: you happen to shake the hand of somebody that was 521 00:34:21,560 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: with the agency or in the diplomatic service. I love that, 522 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,520 Speaker 1: you know, and those sort of things that I don't 523 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: mean you have anything to do with them, yeah, you know, 524 00:34:31,280 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 1: And so a lot of these and the trial is 525 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: going on right now, and we're kind of watching this unfold. 526 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: But I think, you know, one of the interesting pieces 527 00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:45,920 Speaker 1: to this is trying to glean all of the information 528 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:51,200 Speaker 1: that you can from this woman's body that has I mean, 529 00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: let's face it, this is the ultimate and desecration. I mean, 530 00:34:55,120 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: for me, it is. I mean, there's a lot of things. 531 00:34:57,560 --> 00:35:00,040 Speaker 1: You know. We had the guy that we covered that 532 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: poor poor preacher that was out in Arizona where the 533 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:06,520 Speaker 1: guy nailed nailed him to the wall in the shape 534 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,640 Speaker 1: of Christ on the cross and said that if he 535 00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,319 Speaker 1: hadn't been caught, he had like fifteen other targets. As 536 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: it turned out, Oh my lord, that's desecration too, of 537 00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:19,959 Speaker 1: the dead. But man, when you start to get into 538 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:23,840 Speaker 1: these areas of where you're taking a sharp instrument and 539 00:35:23,840 --> 00:35:28,040 Speaker 1: you're drawing it across, drawing it across someone's body to 540 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,920 Speaker 1: either disarticulate it or cut it across mid shaft, all 541 00:35:31,920 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 1: these sorts of things, you're entering into an entire different, 542 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,880 Speaker 1: different level here. And what amazes me I should I 543 00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:43,400 Speaker 1: should no longer be amazed by this. I don't know 544 00:35:43,440 --> 00:35:48,440 Speaker 1: why I am this person that you walk down the 545 00:35:48,440 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: aisle with Dave, that you probably at one point in 546 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:54,320 Speaker 1: time may have gently held her face in your hands, 547 00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,560 Speaker 1: told her that you loved her, told her that you 548 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,319 Speaker 1: would always take care of her and provide for your 549 00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,240 Speaker 1: dying day. You made an oast before God that said, 550 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:05,839 Speaker 1: you know, I'm going to love you till the day 551 00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:09,440 Speaker 1: that you died sickness and health. Suddenly you're standing over 552 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,799 Speaker 1: a body with a saw. How do you go from 553 00:36:12,840 --> 00:36:13,680 Speaker 1: that to that? 554 00:36:14,120 --> 00:36:16,359 Speaker 2: In a very window of time, in a. 555 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 1: Very short window of tom and you know, it's kind 556 00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: of it's kind of mind blowing in it. 557 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:24,799 Speaker 2: It was a shorter period of time than you could 558 00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:26,799 Speaker 2: have paid off a new car Joe, from the time 559 00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:29,880 Speaker 2: they got married to the time he's cutting her up allegedly. 560 00:36:30,840 --> 00:36:32,400 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. 561 00:36:32,480 --> 00:36:34,400 Speaker 2: Just to get down to the nitty gritty here, I don't. 562 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:40,080 Speaker 1: Want to hear from Dewey cheat them and how what 563 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:43,960 Speaker 1: they have done is they've gone from finding severed body 564 00:36:44,000 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: parts spread out over at three mile radius they've collected 565 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:49,160 Speaker 1: as much as they can find. 566 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,680 Speaker 2: I dare say, somebody's going to find something again later. 567 00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 2: But they being the GBI, you have the local police 568 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:59,279 Speaker 2: then working with the GBI, and the GBI reaching out 569 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,400 Speaker 2: to the FBI. Every alphabet group was working on this 570 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:09,640 Speaker 2: and they were able to create out of nothing the 571 00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,360 Speaker 2: face of a human being that looked just like the victim. 572 00:37:12,920 --> 00:37:15,480 Speaker 2: They were able to identify the victim by once they 573 00:37:15,719 --> 00:37:18,000 Speaker 2: id we have a missing person, let's go see what 574 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 2: we have here. They interviewed family after talking to them, well, 575 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,440 Speaker 2: can we get a swab, you know, doing the cheek swabs. 576 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,879 Speaker 2: They built up a genetic genealogy case where they were 577 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:33,319 Speaker 2: tracking back family members of this possible person and they 578 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:37,240 Speaker 2: were able to go Bengo, we've got it. And once 579 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,560 Speaker 2: they were able to identify her, well, they knew that 580 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 2: her husband was now gone and they know what kind 581 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,040 Speaker 2: of guy he is, but I've been married several times. 582 00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 2: He's a conspiracy who goes by the name Nicholas Killian 583 00:37:50,520 --> 00:37:54,919 Speaker 2: Stark and he's now in Pennsylvania somewhere, which is where 584 00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:58,400 Speaker 2: he was arrested seven months after they found the body parts. 585 00:37:59,080 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 2: But they were able to work this back with that 586 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 2: DNA Joe and using genetic forensic any genealogy that you 587 00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,880 Speaker 2: and I have talked about so many times on this show. Yes, 588 00:38:09,200 --> 00:38:12,400 Speaker 2: and with something that twenty years ago they probably couldn't 589 00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:14,080 Speaker 2: have done maybe thirty years you know. 590 00:38:14,719 --> 00:38:17,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, maybe we had an inkling of it twenty 591 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 1: years ago, but nothing like we're at now. And you know, 592 00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: I've got to show a love to our friends at AUTHRAM, 593 00:38:22,920 --> 00:38:24,680 Speaker 1: you know, because we see this every week. You know, 594 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:26,520 Speaker 1: you and I at least covered one of their cases 595 00:38:26,520 --> 00:38:29,920 Speaker 1: every other week. Whether they went to AUTHORM or not 596 00:38:30,239 --> 00:38:34,600 Speaker 1: is not relevant at this to our conversation. But they 597 00:38:34,640 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 1: did build out a forensic genetic genealogy profile and they 598 00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: were able to get Mendy identified. I think one of 599 00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: the issues here that kind of leaves you lacking or 600 00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:56,360 Speaker 1: wanting for more is that we don't necessarily have a 601 00:38:57,040 --> 00:39:02,439 Speaker 1: cause of death. I think that that's that's always hard 602 00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:12,040 Speaker 1: to swallow because because families want want that data, they 603 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,239 Speaker 1: want it, and listen, I got to tell you good 604 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:18,080 Speaker 1: bad are indifferent. They deserve that data, you know, they 605 00:39:18,200 --> 00:39:21,839 Speaker 1: deserve that information, and of course, from a proscatorial standpoint, 606 00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: you want to have it. But he for whatever methodology 607 00:39:30,640 --> 00:39:38,000 Speaker 1: he chose to chose to apply to end her life, 608 00:39:38,239 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: it can you know, it goes to how twisted this 609 00:39:44,640 --> 00:39:48,880 Speaker 1: whole case is. You know, nobody enters into a marriage 610 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:52,280 Speaker 1: asking for this at all. I don't care how grim 611 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:55,799 Speaker 1: things are. I don't care how many voices you might 612 00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: have talking to you in your head because of conspiracy theories. 613 00:39:59,160 --> 00:40:04,839 Speaker 1: Nobody deserves her family deserved to have her intact. As 614 00:40:04,880 --> 00:40:07,360 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, they deserve to be able to 615 00:40:07,400 --> 00:40:13,160 Speaker 1: celebrate Christmas with her and Thanksgiving. We guess what, that's 616 00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,440 Speaker 1: all gone. It's no more. It's never going to happen 617 00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:23,399 Speaker 1: again because of the choices that one individual made. Listen, 618 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:26,560 Speaker 1: this case is still being adjudicated as we speak right now. 619 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:30,920 Speaker 1: But a tip of the cap to all the scientists 620 00:40:30,920 --> 00:40:33,239 Speaker 1: and investigators that worked on this thing for so hard, 621 00:40:33,520 --> 00:40:37,720 Speaker 1: for so long, and so hard, because if that one 622 00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: hunter that was actually tracking a deer down there in 623 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:45,680 Speaker 1: South Georgia had not come across that remain, she may 624 00:40:45,719 --> 00:40:50,719 Speaker 1: have just vanished into the vapor. But now, and this 625 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,759 Speaker 1: is the way it should always be done, they took 626 00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,799 Speaker 1: the dead and for a moment in time, they've resurrected 627 00:40:57,800 --> 00:41:04,200 Speaker 1: her and wait for her body to tell the final tale. 628 00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is bodybags. 629 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,239 Speaker 2: Hm. 630 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:14,520 Speaker 1: Hm