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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: She apparently developed from a very early age this drive

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Speaker 2: to acquire material possessions.

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Speaker 1: Was she interested in acquiring these possessions through hard work

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Speaker 1: or does she have an eye out for a wealthy husband.

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Speaker 2: She was definitely keeping an eye out for a husband

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Speaker 2: who would earn a good living. Bell was a hard worker.

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Speaker 2: I mean, even when she became a homicidal mania, that

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Speaker 2: was kind of hard work.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the host of the historical

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Speaker 1: true crime podcast tenfold More Wicked, as well as the

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Speaker 1: co host of the new show Buried Bones, both on

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Speaker 1: Exactly Right. I've traveled around the world interviewing people for

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Speaker 1: the show. I've interviewed some people in person and some

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Speaker 1: from my home studio over zoom, and they are all

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Speaker 1: ex writers. They've had so many great true crime stories

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Speaker 1: and now we want to tell you those stories with

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Speaker 1: details that have never been published. Tenfold More Wicked presents

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Speaker 1: Wicked Words is about the choices that writers make, good

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Speaker 1: and bad. It's a deep dive into the stories behind

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Speaker 1: the Stories. Author Harold Scheckter has written a book about

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Speaker 1: the famous female serial killer Bell Gunnis, and it's called

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Speaker 1: Hell's Princess. The subtitle is Butcher of Men, and boy

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Speaker 1: is that an accurate description. Bell was a mystery more

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Speaker 1: than a century ago, and she still is. But Harold's

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Speaker 1: deep research has provided us with a portrait of a

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Speaker 1: woman who prayed on lonely men. Where does her story start?

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Speaker 1: What do you know about her from the very beginning?

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Speaker 2: So there's very very little documentary evidence for material about

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Speaker 2: Bell's early years, and.

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Speaker 1: That would be pretty common for many immigrants in the

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Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. It's really hard to gather accurate information from

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Speaker 1: that time period sometimes, and.

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Speaker 2: Then after they become infamous, a lot of people who

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Speaker 2: knew them in the past come up with stories about

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Speaker 2: them that are obviously colored, very colored by their awareness

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Speaker 2: of these horrible crimes. So you got to be very

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Speaker 2: very careful about that. I mean, in Belgunnis's case, for example,

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Speaker 2: they went back and interviewed some people from her hometown

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Speaker 2: in Norway. Some of them remembered her as this very pious,

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Speaker 2: hard working young woman, and then some people were saying, well,

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Speaker 2: we always knew she was bad. We always knew that

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Speaker 2: there was this malicious side to her, so it's hard

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Speaker 2: to know. But yeah, we know very very little. I mean,

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Speaker 2: she was born under very hard scrabble circumstances. Her father

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Speaker 2: was a sharecropper in a little town in Norway. Bell

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Speaker 2: from a very very early age was set out to

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Speaker 2: do all kinds of difficult farming chores and collecting wood

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Speaker 2: from the local forests, you know, to keep the stove

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Speaker 2: warm in the winter. And there were stories about her

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Speaker 2: early life, one of which was that she was impregnated

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Speaker 2: at an early age by some local aristocrat who then,

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Speaker 2: when she revealed her pregnancy, beat her so severely that

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Speaker 2: she miscarried. Now again, whether or not this is true,

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Speaker 2: we don't know for sure. We don't really know much

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Speaker 2: about her he early life until she came to America.

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Speaker 1: I'm assuming there is the immigration papers. Is that where

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Speaker 1: you start with her paperwork in the United States, we

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Speaker 1: have a record of when she came in and how

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Speaker 1: she came in.

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Speaker 2: Yes, we do have that, and we have also various

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Speaker 2: newspaper evidence of her living in Chicago. She came to

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Speaker 2: Chicago when she was around twenty three and moved in

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Speaker 2: with her sister who had emigrated several years earlier, and

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Speaker 2: at that time she was known as Bella. Peterson was

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Speaker 2: the American name she adopted. She did some domestic work,

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Speaker 2: which was very, very typical the young immigrant woman of

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Speaker 2: the time. She was living in Chicago, and of course

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Speaker 2: Chicago was this booming city back then and also home

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Speaker 2: to the first apartment stores in the United States. And

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Speaker 2: Belle apparently from an early age what her sister described

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Speaker 2: as his money madness. She was very, very driven to

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Speaker 2: accumulate as much money as possible. You know, you're talking

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Speaker 2: about America during the Gilded Age, the eighteen nineties, when

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Speaker 2: material success was held up. You know, it is the

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Speaker 2: ultimate goal of American life, all of these commercial goodies.

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Speaker 2: Every time Belle walked through downtown Chicago, she would have

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Speaker 2: seen display windows just crammed with all these seductive things.

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Speaker 2: She was running this big farm on her own. She

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Speaker 2: was always a hard worker, but she was definitely on

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Speaker 2: the lookout for an equally hard working husband who would

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Speaker 2: help them achieve a very comfortable American lifestyle. And she

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Speaker 2: found him around when she was twenty six of three

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Speaker 2: years after she arrived in America, she married her first husband,

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Speaker 2: who was a guy named Mad Sorenson who was a

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Speaker 2: night watchman at one of Chicago's big department stores, and

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Speaker 2: they lived together for six years. The one point they

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Speaker 2: purchased a candy store. They made enough money at some

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Speaker 2: point to purchase their own home. Both the candy store

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Speaker 2: and the home, however, ended up burning down under mysterious circumstances,

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Speaker 2: evidently so that Belle could collect the insurance on them.

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Speaker 1: This is the beginning of it, then, really right criminal enterprise.

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Speaker 2: Well, the real beginning is what happened to her husband, Mads,

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Speaker 2: because Mads had taken out this insurance policy on his

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Speaker 2: life for two thousand dollars, and then Bell persuaded him

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Speaker 2: to take out a different policy for three thousand dollars. Now,

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Speaker 2: the two thousand dollars policy was set to expire on

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Speaker 2: a certain day, and the three thousand dollar policy was

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Speaker 2: set to go into effect on that same day. So

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Speaker 2: like there was one day when both insurance policies were

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Speaker 2: in effect. So on that day, Mads came home from

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Speaker 2: a hard day of work, apparently in the best of health,

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Speaker 2: and then after eating the meal that Bell had prepared

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Speaker 2: for him, suddenly became very sick and died very suddenly,

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Speaker 2: and Bell ended up collecting not the two thousand dollars

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Speaker 2: she would have collected if he had died a day earlier,

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Speaker 2: or the three thousand dollars she would have collected if

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Speaker 2: he had died a day later, but the five thousand

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Speaker 2: dollars that were owed to her because he died on

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Speaker 2: that particular day. So that was really the start. I mean,

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Speaker 2: you know, her killing her first husband.

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Speaker 1: But did the insurance company who did the payoff on

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Speaker 1: these didn't pick up on this coincidence happening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was some suspicion, some suspicion also among the

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Speaker 2: doctors who were summoned to tend to on mads, but

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Speaker 2: nothing was ever proven.

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Speaker 1: So she got all them a dough What are we

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Speaker 1: thinking the poison was that she used back then?

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Speaker 2: Acquiring poison? You know, it's just a matter of going

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Speaker 2: to the local farmers age. Yeah, but there was some

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Speaker 2: suspicion that might have been morphine that she had somehow

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Speaker 2: gotten hold of. The female serial murderers of her time

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Speaker 2: often used RSNITH. But he died so suddenly that there

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Speaker 2: was some suspicion she had somehow managed to administer an

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Speaker 2: overdose of morphine.

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Speaker 1: So Mads is dead. Now, My interest is in the

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Speaker 1: jump from being greedy and wanting lots of money to

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Speaker 1: then having a six year relationship with someone living in

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Speaker 1: someone's house, with him being married and being willing to kill.

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Speaker 1: How did she make that jump? Am I overthinking this?

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Speaker 2: Well, you have obviously a psychopathic personality who basically relates

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Speaker 2: to other human beings as objects that they can manipulate

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Speaker 2: to their own advantage. Mads served his purpose to Bell,

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Speaker 2: and at some point he stopped serving his purpose.

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Speaker 1: And they didn't have any children together.

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Speaker 2: Those two, Well, that's an interesting question. They actually, at

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Speaker 2: one point not formally adopted. They had some friends also,

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Speaker 2: this Norwegian couple and the woman, the wife had just

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Speaker 2: given birth to a child a little before, and they'd

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Speaker 2: already had a bunch of children and it was becoming very,

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Speaker 2: very financially hard for them to support another child. One

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Speaker 2: thing about Bell that's very interesting and also ultimately little

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Speaker 2: unnerves is that she appeared to have a genuinely powerful

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Speaker 2: maternal instinct and she always wanted to have kids. It's

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Speaker 2: a little unclear if she was ever able to give

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Speaker 2: birth to children. You know, she did end up having

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Speaker 2: a number of children, but whether she actually gave birth

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Speaker 2: to them or somehow acquired them through other means is

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Speaker 2: an open question. You know, my own feeling, through my

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Speaker 2: own researches, is that she never gave birth to any

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Speaker 2: of the children. So during her marriage to Mads, this

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Speaker 2: other couple gave this child, a little girl named Jenny,

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Speaker 2: into the permanent care of Belle and Mads. At that point,

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Speaker 2: Belle didn't have any kids, and she somehow persuaded this

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Speaker 2: friend of hers to turn this child over to her,

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Speaker 2: and Belle raised her until she was sixteen, and then

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Speaker 2: there were a couple of other young kids.

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Speaker 1: What's so interesting is when we talk about anybody who

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Speaker 1: has psychopathy, it's that the people who are in their

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Speaker 1: lives are there to serve a purpose and they can

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Speaker 1: be discarded. I wonder why she had this much instinct.

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Speaker 2: At the end. You know, she made a will leaving

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Speaker 2: all of her estate to an orphanage in Chicago. But again,

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Speaker 2: you know, her maternal instincts only went so far.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, let's get into the money. So now she

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Speaker 1: has a total of five thousand dollars since she killed Mads.

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Speaker 1: Then she probably still has remnants of the insurance from

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Speaker 1: burning down. We presume the apartment, right and the candy store.

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Speaker 1: That's a sizable amount of money. What does she do

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Speaker 1: with this money? Does she upgrade her lifestyle?

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Speaker 2: Well, what she does is she moves to a fairly

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Speaker 2: sizable farm in the town of Laporte, Indiana, which is

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Speaker 2: not far from Chicago. So yeah, I mean, in that sense,

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Speaker 2: her material circumstances had improved. She was now the owner

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Speaker 2: of this large I forget exactly how many. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to say one hundred and eighty acres, but that might

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Speaker 2: be wrong. Wow, But it was a large farm and

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Speaker 2: this nice house which had formerly been a brothel and

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Speaker 2: now is turned into this, you know, very very handsome farmhouse.

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Speaker 2: And she got remarried. She got remarried to a guy

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Speaker 2: that she had known before, another Norwegian immigrant named Peter Gunnis,

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Speaker 2: who had boarded briefly with her and Mad's at some point.

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Speaker 2: So now she was living in laport in this nice

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Speaker 2: farm with this very handsome second husband, hardworking and three children.

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Speaker 2: But about six months after her marriage, her move in

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Speaker 2: her marriage, her second husband, Peter Gunnis died under even

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Speaker 2: more even more suspicious circumstances than her first husband, The

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Speaker 2: story was that he when he would come back from

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Speaker 2: the fields every day, he would take off his boots

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Speaker 2: and place them beside the woodburning stove in the kitchen

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Speaker 2: to warm them up and drive them out. And according

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Speaker 2: to Belle's story, after dinner, he had stooped over to

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Speaker 2: retrieve his boots, and somehow when he stood up, he

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Speaker 2: dislodged this meat grinder, this sausage grinder that was on

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Speaker 2: the edge of the stove, and it fell on his

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Speaker 2: head and killed him. Now, again this aroused a lot

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Speaker 2: of suspicion because nobody could think of an instant in

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Speaker 2: which somebody had knocked over a sausage grinder had killed them.

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Speaker 2: So there was an investigation, but again, you know, nothing

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Speaker 2: could be proved. Jenny, the young girl that Bell had

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Speaker 2: taken in as an infant, who at that time was

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Speaker 2: something like thirteen maybe twelve, corroborated the story. So Bell

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Speaker 2: came into even more insurance money, and she was now

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Speaker 2: a widow for the second time and the owner of

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Speaker 2: this very handsome, large farm. So yeah, to go back

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Speaker 2: to your earlier question, it's clear that she wasn't driven

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Speaker 2: purely by mercenary motives, because if that were the case,

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Speaker 2: she would then not have embarked on the criminal spree.

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Speaker 2: Something else was going on.

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Speaker 1: So interesting about Bell so far is that she's using

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Speaker 1: various techniques already, Right, so it seems like it would

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Speaker 1: probably be just as easy to poison Peter like she

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Speaker 1: did Matts. Yeah, but she's using a different technique, right,

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Speaker 1: So she's obviously becoming more enterprising. She could have stayed

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Speaker 1: in Chicago with that money, and she decided to retreat

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Speaker 1: back to a farm and back to hard work. I mean,

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Speaker 1: this does go back to her being someone who's resilient

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Speaker 1: and willing to put in hard work.

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Speaker 2: Well, I mean, she was a farm girl. And even

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Speaker 2: though the era we're talking about saw the very rapid

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Speaker 2: urbanization of American society, still a majority of the population lived,

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Speaker 2: you know, with farmers. There was this migration, mass migration

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Speaker 2: from farms among the younger generation, particularly to the cities,

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Speaker 2: I know, but farming was still obviously a major economic enterprise.

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Speaker 1: So Peter is gone. How old is she?

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Speaker 2: She's forty two?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so she's forty. She's got kids living with her. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what happens next with her? How long is she alone?

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Speaker 1: Is she on her own?

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Speaker 2: Well? Yes, but not for very long. She began placing

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Speaker 2: matrimonial ads in Norwegian language newspapers throughout the Midwest, in

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Speaker 2: which she would basically say that she was a widow

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Speaker 2: who owned actually to have the exact wanted a woman

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Speaker 2: who owns a beautifully located and valuable farm in first

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Speaker 2: class condition. Wants a good and reliable man as partner. Insane,

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Speaker 2: some little cash is required. And you know, the ads

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Speaker 2: varied a little. I mean some of the ads also

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Speaker 2: would add something to the effect of marriage as possible.

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Speaker 2: So all these lonely Norwegian bachelors lured well, they would

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Speaker 2: begin to write her. She started receiving I can't even remember,

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Speaker 2: but she the mailman later testified. You know that she

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Speaker 2: might get four or five letters a day from people

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Speaker 2: answering these ads, and she would go through them. She'd

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Speaker 2: be looking for particular characteristics or features, like, for example,

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Speaker 2: one thing that was very important to her was that

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Speaker 2: these prospective partners husbands didn't have a lot of close family.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, no kidding, no one to look for them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So they would strike up a correspondence and she

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Speaker 2: would describe herself and talk about what a great cook

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Speaker 2: she was. You know, it's the way to a man's

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Speaker 2: heart at through his stomach thing. She would also sometimes

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Speaker 2: make rather suggestive comments in terms of the warm relationship

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Speaker 2: they would have.

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Speaker 1: Yep, you're so polite, Harold.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. She would lure these guys to the farm, instructing

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Speaker 2: them to bring their life savings, and then they would

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Speaker 2: show up and immediately disappear, and she would always have

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Speaker 2: some good excuses to why they didn't hang around for

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Speaker 2: very long. They were suddenly called away because the relative

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Speaker 2: was ill or whatever. Nobody knows sure how many lonely

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Speaker 2: Norwegian bachelors showed up and disappeared, but we know it

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Speaker 2: was at a minimum a dozen.

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Speaker 1: Jenny is the eldest child, Is that right?

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Speaker 2: Yes?

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Speaker 1: Do you think Jenny knew about this? How could she

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Speaker 1: not have known something was going on?

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Speaker 3: Yeah?

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Speaker 2: Well, the evidence suggests that she did figure something out,

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Speaker 2: which is why she herself suddenly disappeared. When she was

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Speaker 2: about sixteen, she had begun going with this young man

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Speaker 2: and one day this guy showed up to take Jenny

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Speaker 2: out somewhere and she was not there, and Belle informed

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Speaker 2: him that Jenny had gone off to California to enter

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Speaker 2: into a seminary. But as was subsequently discovered Belle killed Jenny,

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Speaker 2: and the inference is that Jenny had become aware of

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Speaker 2: what was going on, possibly had even witnessed some of

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Speaker 2: Belle's post mortem activities. What Belle would do, She'd murder

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Speaker 2: these guys, she had, apparently while feeding them this lavish

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Speaker 2: Norwegian meal she had promised him, spike it with some

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Speaker 2: kind of poison. And then that night, when the men

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Speaker 2: were treated to bed feeling ill, bludging them to death,

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Speaker 2: and then drag their bodies to the cellar and butcher them,

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Speaker 2: dismember them, and then bury the pieces in her hog lot.

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Speaker 2: And there's some indication that Jenny might have even witnessed

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Speaker 2: one of these post mortem dissections.

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Speaker 1: How would we know that Jenny knows anything besides obviously

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Speaker 1: she's disappeared.

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Speaker 2: There was some suggestion she might have said something to

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Speaker 2: her boyfriend about some suspicious activities going on, and you know,

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Speaker 2: with her mother.

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Speaker 1: So let's not gloss over the disposal method, which is,

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Speaker 1: I mean, horrific to dismember someone. First, let's talk about that.

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Speaker 1: I've talked to Paul Holes about this quite a bit

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Speaker 1: about how dismembering, what it does, and how she used

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Speaker 1: it effectively. But first of all, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: fall into the category of people who are incredulous that

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Speaker 1: a woman would do this, But I am shocked that

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Speaker 1: a woman, even a farm woman, would do something like this.

300
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Speaker 1: So how do you even as a wrap your head

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Speaker 1: around this vision of Bell Gunnis dismembering these men wearing

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Speaker 1: the dress, one of the dresses that we've seen her photograph.

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Speaker 1: It just seems incredible to me.

304
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Speaker 2: Well, my guess is she was probably wearing an apron.

305
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Speaker 2: But I try not to wrap my head too much.

306
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Speaker 2: Are the things that attracted me to the Bell Gunnis

307
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Speaker 2: case to begin with? I've become very interested years ago

308
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Speaker 2: in the whole phenomenon of female serial murder, at a

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Speaker 2: time when the received wisdom was there was no such

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Speaker 2: thing as female servan that Alien Warnos was the first

311
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Speaker 2: female serial killer, And in doing research on an earlier book,

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Speaker 2: I realized that there have been many, many female serial killers.

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Speaker 2: They just tend to commit their crimes in different ways

314
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Speaker 2: from male serial killers. The culture critic Camille Poglia says

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Speaker 2: that there are no women jack the rippers, which is true,

316
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Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean there are no women's serial killers.

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Speaker 2: That just means that women tend to commit their crimes

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Speaker 2: in different ways and men do. And generally speaking, most

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Speaker 2: of the notorious female serial killers in the nineteen six

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Speaker 2: were poisoners. And I also came to realize that in

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Speaker 2: a way the victims of these women, Lydia Sherman and

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Speaker 2: Sarah Jane Robinson and Jane Toppin, who I wrote my

323
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Speaker 2: book about and who was listed at one point in

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Speaker 2: the Guinness Book of World Records, is America's most prolific

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Speaker 2: serial killer before John Wayne Gacy. Are Their victims suffered

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Speaker 2: more agonies than Jack the Rippers did. Jack the Ripper

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Speaker 2: dispatched his victims very, very swiftly. All his atrocities were

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Speaker 2: committed post mortem, you know where some of these serial killers,

329
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Speaker 2: like Jane Toppin, took this incredible perverse pleasure in prolonging

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Speaker 2: the suffering of their victims. What struck me as unique

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Speaker 2: about beil Gunnis is exactly what you were raising. That

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Speaker 2: she killed them but then violated their bodies and this

333
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Speaker 2: way butchered their bodies. That's probably not unique, I mean,

334
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Speaker 2: I know it's not unique, but still very very unusual

335
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Speaker 2: for a female to do that. And again, here to

336
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Speaker 2: my mind, it has very little to do with monetary motives.

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Speaker 1: So at what point does the farmhand come in. Does

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Speaker 1: that relationship happen while Gene is still alive or as

339
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Speaker 1: a have after Ginny has gone.

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Speaker 2: There was a local jack of all trades named Ray Lantheir,

341
00:19:05,480 --> 00:19:09,560
Speaker 2: who Belle hired to be a farm hand, and also,

342
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Speaker 2: as she apparently did with other previous farm hands, she

343
00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:16,320
Speaker 2: took him to her bed. They became lovers, and Ray

344
00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,879
Speaker 2: became convinced that they were going to get married and

345
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:22,520
Speaker 2: that he was going to become co owner of this farm.

346
00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,080
Speaker 2: And then Bell got a response to one of her

347
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Speaker 2: advertisements from a guy named Andrew Hegelian who was this

348
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Speaker 2: Norwegian farmer, and Belle engaged in this lengthy correspondence with him,

349
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,720
Speaker 2: which still survived. She becomes increasingly seductive, promising him all

350
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Speaker 2: these culinarian carnal delights. You know. He keeps telling her

351
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Speaker 2: he's going to show up at some point. Then something

352
00:19:45,560 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 2: holds him up. He had his own farm and his

353
00:19:48,040 --> 00:19:50,159
Speaker 2: own business that he had to dispose of and so on.

354
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Speaker 2: He finally arrives in Laporte, and at the same moment

355
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Speaker 2: he did, Bell banishes Ray from her house because he'd

356
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Speaker 2: been occupying this bedroom adjacent to her, and Hegellian moves in.

357
00:20:02,119 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 2: Belle had also instructed him, you know, not to tell

358
00:20:04,720 --> 00:20:07,480
Speaker 2: anybody that he was coming to Laporte to marry her

359
00:20:07,680 --> 00:20:10,560
Speaker 2: and also to bring all his life savings. Megellian didn't

360
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,240
Speaker 2: show up with the money, he had to have a

361
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,960
Speaker 2: transfer to this bank at Laporte. So they were together

362
00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 2: for a couple of days until the money was in

363
00:20:17,080 --> 00:20:19,919
Speaker 2: his hands and then in her hands, and then he disappeared.

364
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Speaker 2: Over the next period, Bell and Ray developed this very

365
00:20:24,800 --> 00:20:29,480
Speaker 2: very very belligerent relationship to the point where she tries

366
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Speaker 2: to have him arrested for trespassing. She tries to get

367
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Speaker 2: him consigned to an insane asylum. She's trying to get

368
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Speaker 2: rid of Ray.

369
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Speaker 1: Well, why is it to get rid of him the

370
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Speaker 1: way that she's gotten rid of everybody else. Why is

371
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Speaker 1: Ray any different?

372
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Speaker 2: Well, he wasn't living there anymore. He had moved out.

373
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Speaker 2: That's why he should try to rest him for trespassing,

374
00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:47,960
Speaker 2: because at one point he tried to come back and

375
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Speaker 2: get the possessions he had left. So what happened was that,

376
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:58,199
Speaker 2: despite her explicit instructions, how Gellian had mentioned to his

377
00:20:58,320 --> 00:21:02,800
Speaker 2: brother that he was going off on this trip to Laporte,

378
00:21:02,840 --> 00:21:06,879
Speaker 2: and the brother discovered some letters from Bell and realized

379
00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,720
Speaker 2: we had gone off to marry Bell Gunnis and laport

380
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 2: So the brother travels to Laporte and is poking around,

381
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:18,160
Speaker 2: and Bell, at this point is aware her murdering days

382
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,720
Speaker 2: were over. You know that she's begun to rouse his suspicion.

383
00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:25,439
Speaker 2: A fire breaks out in Bell's farmhouse and the entire

384
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:30,200
Speaker 2: house is burned down to the foundations. The only thing

385
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:35,480
Speaker 2: left is this cellar. And when the embers cool sufficiently,

386
00:21:35,880 --> 00:21:38,960
Speaker 2: the townspeople and I guess what we would now call

387
00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:43,280
Speaker 2: first responders discover and the charred remains of the basement,

388
00:21:43,640 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: four corpses, three children, and the torso of this woman.

389
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:53,719
Speaker 2: The children's corpses are all lying arranged around the body

390
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,840
Speaker 2: of the woman, and the initial newspaper accounts of the

391
00:21:56,840 --> 00:22:00,760
Speaker 2: crime portray Bell is kind of hero. Had broken out

392
00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:02,679
Speaker 2: in the middle of the night. She had tried rescuing

393
00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: the children, clutched the children to her bosom, the house collapsed.

394
00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:11,119
Speaker 2: They all died together. The one odd feature was that

395
00:22:11,200 --> 00:22:14,359
Speaker 2: the woman's body. There was no head to the woman's body,

396
00:22:14,520 --> 00:22:16,320
Speaker 2: and there was no skull there was nothing. It was

397
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 2: just this headless corpse. Meanwhile, Elgellian's brother, this is post fire.

398
00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:24,399
Speaker 2: You know, he's still convinced that something happened to his

399
00:22:24,480 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 2: brother there. He starts poking around the property and he

400
00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:30,960
Speaker 2: comes to the soft spot and he digs it up

401
00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:35,000
Speaker 2: and much to his horror, discovers the butchered remains of

402
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 2: his brother.

403
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:51,119
Speaker 3: Gosh.

404
00:22:51,480 --> 00:22:54,120
Speaker 2: So then other searches are brought in and they dig

405
00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: up about a dozen graves, each one of which contained

406
00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:04,320
Speaker 2: the dismembered, decomposed bodies of one of these lonely Norwegian bachelors,

407
00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:07,919
Speaker 2: except one which contained the butchered remains of Jenny. So

408
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 2: this becomes this huge, huge story. This woman had been

409
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,119
Speaker 2: running this murder farm, and Bell Gunnis's farm becomes this

410
00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: incredible tourist attraction. The reports are like twenty thousand people

411
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:21,800
Speaker 2: showed up on the Sunday after the discovery of all

412
00:23:21,840 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 2: these corpses. I mean it's always been the case. There

413
00:23:24,160 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: wasn't just then notorious murder sites going back as far

414
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,879
Speaker 2: as we know, at least to the seventeen hundreds of

415
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: documentary evidence. I've always attracted tourists and souvenir hunters. In

416
00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,440
Speaker 2: our own country, for example, there was this serial killer

417
00:23:36,480 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 2: family called the Venders. When their crimes were discovered, people

418
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,520
Speaker 2: descended on the place and reduced their little tavern to

419
00:23:43,600 --> 00:23:46,960
Speaker 2: splinters because everybody wanted a souvenir. There's something new in it.

420
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,119
Speaker 2: Back in the eighteenth century, one of the perks of

421
00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,239
Speaker 2: being a hangman was that you've got to keep the

422
00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:56,119
Speaker 2: news that was used to execute the criminal, and they

423
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:58,000
Speaker 2: used to cut it up into one inch pieces and

424
00:23:58,040 --> 00:23:59,119
Speaker 2: sell them as souvenirs.

425
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Speaker 3: Oh gosh.

426
00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 2: In our own time, one of the books I wrote

427
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 2: was about ed Gean, the original Norman Bates. The townspeople

428
00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: knew that his house was going to become this big

429
00:24:08,680 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 2: urist attraction. They burned it down right away. So yeah,

430
00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,199
Speaker 2: I mean, it wasn't unique to that time. The sites

431
00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: of notorious crimes have always attracted sightseers and really continued

432
00:24:18,760 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 2: to do so. I believe that the apartment building that

433
00:24:22,359 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Dahmer committed his crimes and had to be torn down.

434
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:29,720
Speaker 1: So if we revisit the crime scene, there are children,

435
00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: three children, you said, is that right? And Ginny is

436
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:37,520
Speaker 1: also there and then the headless female Tourso that's not Bell.

437
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: Well, we don't know. I mean, that's partly why I

438
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:42,439
Speaker 2: subtitled my book the Mystery of Bell Gunnis, because that

439
00:24:42,520 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: has remained an open question, whether that corpse was Bell,

440
00:24:47,359 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 2: whether that she committed suicide, took her kids with her,

441
00:24:50,920 --> 00:24:53,160
Speaker 2: she realized the end was coming, she hadn't know where

442
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,520
Speaker 2: to go, or, as some people believe, whether she lured

443
00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: some woman of roughly her stature to the farm, killed

444
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:03,280
Speaker 2: her and set her up as a kind of decoy.

445
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:06,760
Speaker 2: Nobody knows for sure. I mean, for years afterwards, going

446
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:09,800
Speaker 2: into the nineteen thirties, there were reports that she had

447
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:11,919
Speaker 2: been spotted, and so on and so. For the nineteen

448
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:15,440
Speaker 2: thirties in California, there was a female poisoner named Ester Carlson,

449
00:25:15,560 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: and people were convinced who was Bell Gunnis. She died

450
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,200
Speaker 2: I can't remember of what, tuberculosis or some disease before

451
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:24,679
Speaker 2: she could be brought to trial. But they actually brought

452
00:25:24,880 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: people from the port who had known Bell to California

453
00:25:28,200 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 2: to view her corpse, and some of them swore it

454
00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: as Bell Gunnis, although more recent researchers seemed to approve

455
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 2: that it wasn't. So. Whether Bell survived or not is unknown.

456
00:25:38,880 --> 00:25:43,560
Speaker 1: But a headless corpse, that's not suicide. I mean that's impossible, actually, right.

457
00:25:43,600 --> 00:25:45,080
Speaker 1: They never recovered the head, is that right?

458
00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:49,800
Speaker 2: Some experts testified, you know, the head could have just

459
00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: been incinerated in the fire.

460
00:25:52,200 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 1: True, okay, I mean.

461
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:56,160
Speaker 2: What happened was well, just to go back from it,

462
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,880
Speaker 2: I mean, Ray Lamb, theear, this hired hand that she'd

463
00:25:59,880 --> 00:26:03,280
Speaker 2: have this great falling out with, was ultimately arrested and

464
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: accused of burning down the house. Although he was acquitted

465
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 2: of homicide, he always claimed he hadn't done it, that

466
00:26:10,320 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: Bell had done it. In fact, and on the day

467
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:15,520
Speaker 2: of the fire, Bell had gone into town and purchased

468
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 2: a bunch of kerosene. They found the cans in cider house,

469
00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:22,120
Speaker 2: So we don't know whether Bell. Again, that's another part

470
00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 2: of the ambiguity of the case, whether Bell set the fire,

471
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:29,199
Speaker 2: whether them Fear set the fire. But during the trial

472
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,399
Speaker 2: of Vlent Fear, they brought in all these experts to

473
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 2: try to establish whether it wasn't that Bell's torso. One

474
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 2: of the issues was Bell top two hundred pounds and

475
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: the torso is relatively small, so there was a lot

476
00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 2: of testimony about how much a body could shrink you know,

477
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,080
Speaker 2: and subjected to that much heat.

478
00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 1: So in my book, I have a case about chemist

479
00:26:53,720 --> 00:26:57,440
Speaker 1: who lures somebody to his lab and who's supposed to

480
00:26:57,480 --> 00:27:00,199
Speaker 1: be a kind of a doppelganger and kills him and

481
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,960
Speaker 1: removes teeth and does all kinds of crazy things. And

482
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:06,040
Speaker 1: my book is about a forensic scientist who solves the

483
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: case by it seems pretty simple because they were different heights. Really,

484
00:27:10,600 --> 00:27:13,160
Speaker 1: the big thing was that he figured out that the

485
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 1: supposed victim, the man who was supposed to be dead,

486
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,360
Speaker 1: had had a tooth extracted, and his dentist confirmed it.

487
00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: But this guy who was dead on the table had

488
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,520
Speaker 1: had his tooth chipped out post mortem, and he could

489
00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 1: tell by the way it had healed right. So unfortunately,

490
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,400
Speaker 1: the equivalent of the forensic scientists in this time period

491
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:34,120
Speaker 1: didn't have as much to work with with the Torso,

492
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 1: so really they were just sort of estimating was it

493
00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:39,800
Speaker 1: even possible that there was such a difference between Bell

494
00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: and the torso that was found.

495
00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 2: Teeth did also play a major role finally in the

496
00:27:46,000 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: question of you know, whether it was Bell or not,

497
00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:53,639
Speaker 2: because Bell not long before had gone into town and

498
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:57,760
Speaker 2: had this bridge put in with some gold teeth, and

499
00:27:57,800 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 2: the authorities knew if they could locate this bridge work,

500
00:28:02,359 --> 00:28:06,240
Speaker 2: they would be able to positively identify the remains as

501
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 2: those of Bell, and they couldn't find it. So what

502
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 2: they did was there happened to be in town at

503
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:16,359
Speaker 2: that time this old gold prospector, who was known, of

504
00:28:16,400 --> 00:28:21,520
Speaker 2: course as Old Klondike, as you would want a Yukon

505
00:28:21,680 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 2: gold inspect to be called, and he set up this

506
00:28:25,000 --> 00:28:31,160
Speaker 2: whole elaborate gold panning system, and they would literally take

507
00:28:31,200 --> 00:28:35,000
Speaker 2: all the ashes from the cellar and put it through

508
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 2: this thing.

509
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:37,880
Speaker 1: Oh wow, searching for her teeth.

510
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 2: Search for and this went on for days and days

511
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 2: and days with no results. The last day that Old

512
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 2: Klondike was on the job, he was about to go

513
00:28:47,640 --> 00:28:51,520
Speaker 2: back to the actual Klondike. Apparently, like the last day

514
00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,680
Speaker 2: in last he suddenly came upon this bridge with the

515
00:28:56,080 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 2: gold I don't remember one of them. There's at least

516
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:02,360
Speaker 2: one gold tooth that was presented at the trial as

517
00:29:02,400 --> 00:29:06,960
Speaker 2: this unequivocal proof that the body was that of Bell,

518
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: and they brought in the local dentist to identify. Now

519
00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:16,040
Speaker 2: even that, however, there was some ultimate question about because

520
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 2: there were several eye witnesses at the sight of this operation,

521
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:25,320
Speaker 2: who claimed that they saw Old Klondike reach into his

522
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,840
Speaker 2: pocket and that he had been somehow in cahoots with

523
00:29:28,880 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 2: a dentist who had prepared another identical bridge.

524
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: How many unreliable sources can you shove into one story? Harold?

525
00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: What do you think? I think? I know what you think,

526
00:29:39,920 --> 00:29:41,880
Speaker 1: because you dropped a couple of little breadcrumbs here. But

527
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:45,240
Speaker 1: what do you think was that her clutching her children lovingly?

528
00:29:45,520 --> 00:29:49,240
Speaker 2: Well, you know, I immodestly thought that I was going

529
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:53,560
Speaker 2: to solve this century's old mystery when I began the book,

530
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,479
Speaker 2: and at some point I thought I had. Ultimately I didn't.

531
00:29:56,840 --> 00:30:00,120
Speaker 2: I dislike ambiguity as much as the next person, So

532
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 2: I don't have a definitive answer. My feeling is, you know,

533
00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: by the time I got to the end of the

534
00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:08,680
Speaker 2: book was like, every time I thought one thing like

535
00:30:08,720 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: that she had survived, you know, the next day I

536
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: would think the other. At gunpoint I would have to

537
00:30:14,360 --> 00:30:16,959
Speaker 2: say that, I do think that was probably her body.

538
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: Really, so the rest of her burned up except for

539
00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: the torso, yeah.

540
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,720
Speaker 2: I mean, just again, there were so many bell sidings afterwards. Yeah,

541
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 2: but you know, people are still seeing Elvis Presley. Right.

542
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: So evidently some serial murderers reach a point and they

543
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 2: do kill themselves. I mean a lot of people think

544
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:39,080
Speaker 2: that's what happened with Jack the Ripper, for example. They

545
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 2: descend into such psychosis at some point. And I don't

546
00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: think Belle would have killed her children, those three young

547
00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:50,680
Speaker 2: ones they found with the body without killing herself, because again,

548
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 2: she had this paradoxically maternal which everybody who knew her

549
00:30:55,400 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 2: testified to.

550
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:57,880
Speaker 1: That she was a good mother, that she was.

551
00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: A good mother up to the point she killed arthur.

552
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 1: Kids petitionally three more.

553
00:31:03,240 --> 00:31:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, So that's my feeling.

554
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,080
Speaker 1: So what do you think is the lesson here with

555
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 1: this story for her? I mean, what did you take away?

556
00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: Is there some sort of modern day lesson for us

557
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: in Belle's story don't be a poisoner, don't kill your kids?

558
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:20,719
Speaker 2: Yeah exactly. No. I mean all the lessons relating to

559
00:31:20,800 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: the present, just to me, have to do with the

560
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,320
Speaker 2: fascination with cases like this. I mean, I don't think

561
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 2: there's any particular lesson that you can draw from Bell's guest.

562
00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: I mean to assuming that she was motivated by this

563
00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 2: hatred and revenge that you wanted to take on the

564
00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:42,320
Speaker 2: male species, for the presumed abuses she suffered and humiliations

565
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: she suffered as a young person. That obviously relates to

566
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 2: a lot of things going on today. I mean, one

567
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 2: of the things that I have come to believe in

568
00:31:50,760 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 2: studying the cases of serial killers is that extreme childhood

569
00:31:55,760 --> 00:32:00,120
Speaker 2: humiliation is often a very important factor. And do you

570
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 2: know that Belle suffered that in her community, coming from

571
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,320
Speaker 2: a particularly poor family, and so on and so forth.

572
00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 2: But again, I mean, there's some such profound aggression and

573
00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:14,960
Speaker 2: hatred as men that it does suggest to me that

574
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:19,440
Speaker 2: she was reacting to on some level something terrible that

575
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:23,120
Speaker 2: happened to her as a young woman. So it's possible

576
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:27,840
Speaker 2: to see bell as a figure, you know, this female avenger.

577
00:32:28,120 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: Well, I had an interesting interview with Katherine Ramslan where

578
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 1: she and I talked about this. You know, she spent

579
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 1: years with BTK, and she and I talked a lot

580
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,240
Speaker 1: about Eileen Warnos, and I think we agree that all people,

581
00:32:39,360 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: all writers, men and women, and myself included, are searching

582
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,960
Speaker 1: for answers more so with female killers than we are

583
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: with men, because it's more surprising. Sometimes I think that

584
00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,440
Speaker 1: they are just bad people. And I don't know if

585
00:32:52,480 --> 00:32:54,840
Speaker 1: Belle had a worse experience than anybody else, But I

586
00:32:54,840 --> 00:32:57,520
Speaker 1: remember Katherine Ramslan saying, you know, if you watch the

587
00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 1: Aileen Warners movie where it just everything is about her childhood,

588
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: it all goes back to her childhood. She said, sometimes

589
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 1: people are just psychopaths. They just are And if you

590
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,400
Speaker 1: don't give women this sort of credit, that they can

591
00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: just be really bad and you want to see people

592
00:33:12,600 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 1: dead and remove obstacles and be cold hearted. So it's

593
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,240
Speaker 1: interesting though, but you know, with Belle, this balance between

594
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: being maternal and being heartless and cold hearted, it really does.

595
00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,840
Speaker 1: It's sort of a paradoxical thing with a maternal and

596
00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:26,680
Speaker 1: psychopath don't go well together.

597
00:33:27,200 --> 00:33:31,000
Speaker 2: I mean, childhood influences are important, Yeah they are, But

598
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 2: also I mean she was so hideously mistreated as an adult.

599
00:33:36,360 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 2: I mean, I do think Warnos was clearly acting out of,

600
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:45,000
Speaker 2: among other things, some revenge motive on the male species.

601
00:33:45,400 --> 00:33:48,080
Speaker 2: It's impossible to know what goes into the making of

602
00:33:48,120 --> 00:33:51,480
Speaker 2: a psyche of some of these people. I've said, it's

603
00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:54,560
Speaker 2: as hard to explain a Jeffrey Dahmer as it is

604
00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:59,640
Speaker 2: to explain a Mozart. Yeah, they're just these prodigies in

605
00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: the world case evil, in another case musical genius, but

606
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 2: trying to trace the source of what makes them that

607
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 2: is impossible.

608
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,080
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting for me from a woman's point of view.

609
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,040
Speaker 1: I look at a bell and think, I don't know

610
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,840
Speaker 1: if she was a man hater. I think she wanted money.

611
00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: Men were the easiest way to get it, and then

612
00:34:20,760 --> 00:34:24,400
Speaker 1: she dispatched them like she would some farm animal that

613
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:26,959
Speaker 1: was no longer of use. I mean, it seemed very

614
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:29,239
Speaker 1: logical to me, that's what she would do, you know,

615
00:34:29,360 --> 00:34:33,359
Speaker 1: And she was able to separate squeamishness and feelings, and

616
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:35,920
Speaker 1: it just seems very straightforward to me.

617
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:40,160
Speaker 2: Except for a as you were suggesting earlier, she was

618
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,040
Speaker 2: pretty well off, particularly for a single women at the time.

619
00:34:43,280 --> 00:34:45,720
Speaker 2: And yeah, you know, there are a lot of people

620
00:34:45,760 --> 00:34:49,600
Speaker 2: in America at that time who really wanted money. Particularly again,

621
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:52,360
Speaker 2: it was a moment when the cultural idols of the

622
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,600
Speaker 2: time or Andrew Carnegie, you know, all these robber barons

623
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:57,520
Speaker 2: and so on. There are a lot of people who

624
00:34:57,520 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 2: wanted money and so forth who didn't end up and

625
00:35:00,400 --> 00:35:03,319
Speaker 2: butchering a dozen people and burying them in their hog lock,

626
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:08,600
Speaker 2: which was also an especially ignominious way to end up.

627
00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: So the money was certainly part of it.

628
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 1: Do you think that she enjoyed it?

629
00:35:14,080 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 2: Oh?

630
00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, watching people suffer? You think she watched them? I

631
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,399
Speaker 1: do wonder about that. Does she watch them die? Did

632
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 1: she stand in front of them? I mean, we're probably

633
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: never going to know any of that.

634
00:35:23,000 --> 00:35:24,800
Speaker 2: Well, I do think she enjoyed it. I mean, you

635
00:35:24,880 --> 00:35:26,480
Speaker 2: got to enjoy something like that if you're going to

636
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:28,480
Speaker 2: do it. Yeah, you have to be getting some kind

637
00:35:28,520 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 2: of gratification from it, right beyond the money, some kind

638
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: of gratification from these trusting men who you've lured to

639
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 2: your farm both promises of conjugal delights and so on

640
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 2: and so forth, and then reducing them to carrying.

641
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, in the long list of books that you've written,

642
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 1: where does this fall for you? Was this one of

643
00:35:47,400 --> 00:35:50,359
Speaker 1: your more interesting books to research? I mean, I think

644
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:52,799
Speaker 1: there are some killers that give you the hebgbs more

645
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: than others. At least that's true for the people I

646
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: write about. So where does bell fall for you?

647
00:35:57,280 --> 00:35:59,279
Speaker 2: I mean, partly one of the reasons I do what

648
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 2: I do my day job forty years was as an academic,

649
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:04,880
Speaker 2: and I got my PhD in American literature and so

650
00:36:04,880 --> 00:36:06,879
Speaker 2: on and so forth. I always loved doing research, which

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00:36:06,920 --> 00:36:09,439
Speaker 2: is a big part of the gratification for me. There's

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00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 2: certainly been some subjects in my books who have disturbed

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00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 2: me more than Bell Gunnis. I don't see Bell as

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00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:20,360
Speaker 2: a sadist, a sadistic lust murderer in the way, for example,

655
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 2: Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy were writing about those

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00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 2: people and researching those people is much more disturbing to

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00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,960
Speaker 2: me than Belle. Again dispatched her victims pretty quickly and

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00:36:32,000 --> 00:36:34,960
Speaker 2: so on. But it does fall into what at some

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00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,840
Speaker 2: point became my interest in the phenomenon of female serial murder.

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Speaker 1: On the next episode of Wicked Words, Michael Burns on

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Speaker 1: Florida's Flat Tire serial killer.

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Speaker 4: Right in the summer nineteen seventy five, after I think

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00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:55,760
Speaker 4: about five or six victims were found in canals, including

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Speaker 4: the two fourteen year old girls, really young girls, all

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00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:03,000
Speaker 4: being found in canals, drowned, shot. We don't know cause

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00:37:03,000 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 4: of death, but certainly something was happening. And when Ronnie's

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00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 4: abduction and death occurred, I think that certainly shook people

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00:37:09,440 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 4: that hey, something is going on here, somebody's doing this.

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Speaker 1: My new book, all that Is Wicked is available now,

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00:37:26,080 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: including the audiobook All That Is Wicked is based on

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00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: our first season of tenfold War Wicked. You might think

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00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: you know the whole story of killer Edward Ruloff's crimes,

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00:37:34,760 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 1: but there's so much more. My book American Sherlock is

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00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,120
Speaker 1: also available. This has been an exactly right tenfold War

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00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 1: Media production. The producer is Alexis Emirosi. This episode was

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00:37:45,400 --> 00:37:49,040
Speaker 1: mixed and sound designed by Andrew Eapen. Curtis Heath is

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00:37:49,080 --> 00:37:52,800
Speaker 1: our composer. Nick Toga did the artwork. Ilsa Brink designed

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00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: the website. The executive producers are Georgia Hartstark, Karen Kilgarriff

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00:37:57,600 --> 00:38:01,719
Speaker 1: and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and Facebook

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00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,920
Speaker 1: at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold More

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00:38:05,239 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: and If you know of a historical crime that could

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00:38:07,840 --> 00:38:11,160
Speaker 1: use some attention, especially if it happened in your family,

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00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:15,919
Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmore Wicked dot com. We'll

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00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,360
Speaker 1: also take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked

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Speaker 1: Words